"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002267fdfc14042043aaa484d37e3c516772\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 4 MARCH 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e13fc1bd8a84b98b54fcd375b91f2cc\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 4 MARCH 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022528d98af56034aa4a2bdfa9b75152248\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c653ef9d4ac243d58153d023b787af7f\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222c93f4639a8c430383d7039baa696638\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c93f4639a8c430383d7039baa696638\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d5e673aa04442848ae1b4f6f312db4c\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022010e6b8ef81248ddb9a8fccc9cd13060\u0022\u003EDebate\u2014Use of \u201CAotearoa\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b04989d68c7b4dc7a2ca327eda64fae9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b04989d68c7b4dc7a2ca327eda64fae9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019ve been asked to rule on the use of the word \u201CAotearoa\u201D in the\u00A0House. I said I would consider the approach taken by the New Zealand Geographic Board, though this is not at all binding on the House, which does enjoy unfettered freedom\u00A0of speech.\u00A0The official name of New Zealand may only be altered by legislation. However, \u201CAotearoa\u201D is regularly used as a name of New Zealand, including by the Geographic Board itself in its own name, and in the title of the legislation that created it. It appears on our passports and it appears on our currency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve pointed out several times that Standing Order 109 says that \u201Cmember[s] may address the Speaker in English, [te reo] M\u0101ori, or New Zealand Sign Language.\u201D That really is the end of the matter. In light of Standing Order 109, it\u2019s not for the Speaker to arbitrate when individual words in any of those three languages may be used. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI suggested to Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March he might like to use \u201CAotearoa New Zealand\u201D for the sake of order in the House and to assist anyone who might not understand the term.\u00A0However, members may speak in any of the three languages at any time. If other members do not like certain words, they don\u2019t have to use them. But it\u2019s not a matter of order and I don\u2019t expect to have further points of order raised about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c7a360038d554c3fa851cfbffaba3f5d\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002284080232f1434dcfa560c0921c314aff\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229a91e5c4ef704c7388108d10a93fe5ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a91e5c4ef704c7388108d10a93fe5ed\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Clerk will present six petitions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002223de54c6da4743d791322fcde7382c32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223de54c6da4743d791322fcde7382c32\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Connor Sharp requesting that the House ask the Government to work with local government in Auckland to deliver surface light rail in Auckland\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of H Hakepa on behalf of Te P\u0101ti Tangata Whenua, requesting that the House increase the number of M\u0101ori electorates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Conrad Petersen requesting that the House repeal and rewrite section 24A of the Arms Act 1983\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Chris Gilmore requesting the House urge the Government to hold a referendum on the Gene Technology Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Christian van der Pump requesting that the House urge the Government to release incident statistics collected by Fire and Emergency New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Councillor Sam Bennett requesting the House urge the Government to require New Zealand Transport Agency to immediately plan, finance, and undertake remedial work on State Highway 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229f83790d7348485ab7f99ba665e14a93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f83790d7348485ab7f99ba665e14a93\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ministers have delivered five papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022efa1405bb1ca492bbb62256854d895ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efa1405bb1ca492bbb62256854d895ca\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment responses to the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Petitions Committee on the petition of John Hearnshaw\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Raina Vermani, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Rainbow Labour Christchurch Branch\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2024-25 annual report for Whaikaha - Ministry of Disabled People\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport on Unappropriated Expenses and Capital Expenditure for the financial year ended 30 June 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022353ca0e889574f5dab0389c42b82734f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022353ca0e889574f5dab0389c42b82734f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General entitled \u201CRegulating vehicle safety inspections\u201D. I also report the Optional Protocol to the Convention Against Torture, OPTCAT, Aged Care Monitoring, Chief Ombudsman\u2019s Observations\u2014I\u00A0don\u2019t like acronyms. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Eleven select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022398fa257678e46f0a178d91b49e9368a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022398fa257678e46f0a178d91b49e9368a\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EInternational treaty examination of the Agreement on Climate Change, Trade and Sustainability\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EInternational treaty examination of the Agreement Under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea on the Conservation and Sustainable Use of Marine Biological Diversity of Areas Beyond National Jurisdiction, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EInternational treaty examination of the US Tuna Treaty Amendments to Annex II of the Treaty on Fisheries between the Governments of certain Pacific Island States and the Government of the United States of America\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Governance and Administration Committee on the Auckland Harbour Board and Takapuna Borough Council Empowering Act Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Brian Webb\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Deirdre Kent, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Kylee Kelly\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Primary Production Committee on the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General, \u201CMonitoring importers of specified high-risk foods\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Social Services and Community Committee on the 2023-24 annual review of the Social Services and Community sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002297570a51b1604fd5a4924cae567fd7ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297570a51b1604fd5a4924cae567fd7ac\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bills are set down for second reading. The report of the Controller and Auditor-General and the international treaties are set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of three bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7f2f1e89b3a4af9a27a128640dab2f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7f2f1e89b3a4af9a27a128640dab2f7\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReferendums Framework Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETerm of Parliament (Enabling 4-year Term) Legislation Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2023/24 Confirmation and Validation) Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022494fe98413a040ff80cf2bc9ce3b2c59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022494fe98413a040ff80cf2bc9ce3b2c59\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002244c0464bd50a49a19fff7df14d0d7676\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022088f2b8c4ef84891a90edc0d9603d536\u0022\u003ETe Matatini 2025\u2014Congratulations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022086e505cba984fdeb5bc8f7d0b15c947\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022086e505cba984fdeb5bc8f7d0b15c947\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage): \u003C/span\u003EMr Speaker, I seek leave to move a motion without notice and without debate to acknowledge Te Matatini 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a9d3d4c9cf74794ad15c0dcde325e56\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228633c6d5db454e5fb55ad252e7e20914\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That this House congratulate all of those who participated in the Te Matatini o Te K\u0101hui Maunga National Kapa Haka Festival last week and, in particular, Te Kapa Haka o Ng\u0101ti Whakaue, the Supreme Winner, and note that Te Matatini this year was attended by record numbers of both participants and guests, with 15,000 people attending the finals on Saturday, generating an estimated $26.5 million for the Taranaki region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EKa t\u016B te ihi, ka t\u016B te wehi, ka t\u016B te wana\u2014have no fear and compete.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5ebbb084a144ecb919bf580be771665\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002218f7526e3a7548d4a9030e97ec916011\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u2014Ministerial Resignation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222bf80f05203c4132aef449a44129a253\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bf80f05203c4132aef449a44129a253\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019ve received a letter from the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins seeking to debate under Standing Order 399 the resignation of a Minister, the Hon Andrew Bayly. This is a particular case of recent occurrence for which there is ministerial responsibility that warrants the attention of the House and the Government. At the conclusion of oral questions, I\u2019ll call on the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins to move that the House take note of a matter of urgent public business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002283a5c23e429a49d8b0e4b948ed2a0a52\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022518a4594cb9a4a6c93807292004a4109\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022721697443e294fb38bf49153b5569475\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002284f6aa44df5c4df4b32bf26b233d8044\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284f6aa44df5c4df4b32bf26b233d8044\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022884b243f5fec44c9a72423fbaf28ac7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022884b243f5fec44c9a72423fbaf28ac7b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially our action in recent days to make it easier for New Zealanders to see a doctor. We know that too many Kiwis wait too long to see their GP, which is why we\u2019re putting more funding into primary healthcare. And thanks to that funding, Kiwis will see more nurses working in primary care, more international doctors working in their community, more opportunities to enrol with their local doctors, and more choice with the roll-out of a 24/7 digital service. Fixing the healthcare system won\u2019t be easy, but our outstanding Minister of Health is backing patients and making sure we can get them the care they need\u2014he\u2019s funding more, he\u2019s growing the workforce more, and he\u2019s getting rid of the bureaucracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228963210aa2a04f87b0b542bb6becba40\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why has he expressed confidence in David Seymour\u2019s ability to clean up the mess he\u2019s made of the school lunches programme, given his own Minister of Education has refused to share that confidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3c76d6f6a2343909391a2e66c612829\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, David Seymour is the accountable Minister. I\u2019ve got every confidence he\u2019s all over the detail and he\u2019s going to make sure all the food and the meals get up to scratch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1c73cab25cc48ed8672c5ae1ee07f4b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Was Erica Stanford correct that David Seymour\u2019s announcement cancelling teacher-only days overstepped the mark; if so, what has he as Prime Minister done\u00A0about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254e65b2037ce49a9a63849296de27370\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have clear delegations and clear responsibilities. David Seymour is the accountable Minister for school lunches; he is aware of the issues and he will fix them. Erica Stanford is the accountable Minister for teacher-only days, and she will manage that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271d1adca343d45d99f0ed5e1476c6f97\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why is Erica Stanford being left to clean up David Seymour\u2019s messes while he fails to show up to meetings with her, and he as Prime Minister won\u2019t do anything about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e52352e9544443559b5febf94d93e5d9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, can you explain which meetings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022287287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b341902ee03747918bcf8bdb529b8ee6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad9b952a959f4e7f84451c64f378afd1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014no you may not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b120b48d99145cbac556aba0947ea9b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t believe I need to explain questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb6848fab8c94449b3c05d8319226e0d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You may not. You can\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e65a6ec2785471db7fcf721f2afe2d9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but the Prime Minister might like to read the news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230e28097b4fc4949a529dd736ef96603\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me! Just\u2014can we move on to question No. 2 then, if that\u2019s where we\u2019re at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200956a7a6d734dfdbc144c675be5883c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022423416c95c91419292d55ec67c99900e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227685a3a14684455da4618fcfc94592fb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve asked the Prime Minister a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291b0d4afaeb340c1aa8dfc7bc9637a6a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you did, and then you decided to qualify it when he gave an answer, and that was unacceptable. I\u2019m asking you now to ask the question again and nothing else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f45f64e4897f4405adaa46534f47fa32\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I\u2019ll repeat the question: why is Erica Stanford being left to clean up David Seymour\u2019s messes while he fails to show up to meetings with her, and why will he as Prime Minister not do anything about that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022992a051a287e476288b539a0bad47797\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said before, I have every confidence that David Seymour is working his way through the issues around the school lunches. He\u2019s aware of the detail, he\u2019s on top of it, and I have every confidence that he will sort it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcaf0034761c47c3b52ab34b767683ce\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why does Erica Stanford have the fortitude to repeatedly stand up to David Seymour that he seems to lack?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022484b6b65ead6403baede9c4d75e24b11\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220547669906349e4993116d891c5878e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014the last part of that question is not in order. Next supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283b3a0058cd442c68e1b067d015e1fcf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Is it still his expectation that the new, cheaper, mass-produced school lunches will be at least as good, if not better, than the healthy locally made lunches his Government cancelled; if so, when can hungry school students expect him to deliver on that promise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a67177c8de145d1b4ea0cb7ee7564bb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll just say to that member, it\u2019s a bit rich because we saved school lunches, because that Prime Minister didn\u2019t fund school lunches. So we are spending more on school lunches and we are giving them to more kids. That\u2019s a good thing. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c328be7a1e43443eb7039667fb03a746\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c0e86d6017c414e95b68571b17fc8b4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When the House comes to a little bit of quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022792040009ce3465fb7e1e7c1ad2f5901\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: If it hasn\u2019t taken feeding children melted plastic, failing to deliver lunches at all, serving up the same food 13 days in a row, or serving pork to halal students, what will it take for him to finally step in and sort out the mess that his Government has made of the school lunches programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd2e75dfed114c9591e9b7ea5c17ba4b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, again, I\u2019d just say to that member, this is a Government that has actually put together a school lunch programme that is feeding more children and is funded. He hadn\u2019t funded it; we funded it. We\u2019re expanding the access to it. Yes, some of the food is not up to scratch, but the Minister is working his way through the issues and I have every confidence he will resolve it. And I just say to parents that may be listening to this, feel free to prepare a Marmite sandwich and an apple for lunch. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224816463d92414d2b9d503fd068f1605c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is the last mass outburst that we\u2019re going to hear today. We could be a very empty House if people continue to participate in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002220fcaffa615c4a898dcd1491356379bb\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u0022c672acece0f64d20821f71503fea4aa5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c672acece0f64d20821f71503fea4aa5\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has she seen on the economy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022269aad24663d4e23aa68145e25e34632\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022269aad24663d4e23aa68145e25e34632\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Recent data releases are consistent with a growing New Zealand economy. Yesterday, for example, the latest trade figures were released. These show that in the December quarter of last year, New Zealand exported $26.7 billion worth of goods and services. That\u2019s an increase of 9.6 percent over the same period a year earlier. Dairy was particularly strong, making up almost a quarter of our total exports in the quarter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fcbd754b13d4c36acb4b80d0cda4820\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What is driving this increase in exports? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a73a2d574054cdf8145632294c48504\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, both export volumes and prices have been rising\u2014that is, the amount of goods we export has been rising and the world price we get for those goods has also been going up. Furthermore, the New Zealand dollar is currently at a competitive rate for exporters. ANZ\u2019s Commodity Price Index, which follows movements in prices for New Zealand exports like dairy, meat, horticulture, and forestry, has risen 15 percent in the past year when measured in world prices, and has risen 25 percent in New Zealand dollar terms. That is good news for New Zealand\u2019s hard-working exporters and the people they employ. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022436344194d8044a5bb671c69fb60bd03\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: How do export prices compare to import prices? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221401c7cd93ab48ba952a43f28bbe018b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Import prices are, of course, the other side of the equation. Luckily, economists have a measure of a country\u2019s export prices relative to its import prices, and that\u2019s the terms of trade. New Zealand\u2019s terms of trade have been rising strongly as export prices have been rising much more strongly than import price rises. Currently, the terms of trade is at a near-record high in a series that goes back to the 1950s. Now, that is good news. As New Zealand\u2019s purchasing power has, effectively, gone up, we are getting more in return for what we export. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b09e6c0dcf14489d834145099eb119db\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What other export industries are picking up? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227807a88bf10c40ab8f3512db79a61ef5\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d like to share with you facts from a letter I received from New Zealand Apples and Pears, who tell me that New Zealand\u2019s apple and pear industry has achieved $1\u00A0billion in orchard-gate returns for the very first time. I would like to congratulate the apple and pear industry, which also has revealed that this is worth $2.5 billion in revenue impact to the New Zealand economy\u2014up 27 percent from 2023\u2014with employment in the sector also increasing to more than 13,700 jobs, and this growth trend looks set to continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b2715b5c6a1453fad8b3f73b9d21e56\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u002287496224050148b7adf76709ed3a178c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287496224050148b7adf76709ed3a178c\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00224acb558dfd2c4da3a8a09f7c49205ecc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224acb558dfd2c4da3a8a09f7c49205ecc\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially our action to support Kiwis with the cost of living. We know it\u2019s a tough time for New Zealanders, which is why it\u2019s so important to get on top of wasteful spending, inflation, and interest rates. We\u2019ve made real progress: repealing the Auckland regional fuel tax, delivering tax\u00A0relief, and supporting young families with FamilyBoost. But there\u2019s more to do, and that\u2019s why the focus this year is on unleashing growth so that Kiwis have more money in their back pocket. That\u2019s why we\u2019re backing farmers; that\u2019s why we\u2019re backing exporters; backing tourism; fighting hard offshore in trips, like to Vietnam, to make sure that we actually create more deals for Kiwi businesses, to create more jobs at home and more money in the back pockets of Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022512df59e32f44c14b6c56f7e686b947a\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that Ka Ora, Ka Ako is about supporting our\u00A0tamariki to be healthy and well in order for them to learn, and, if so, can he tell the\u00A0House how he can be proud of his Government\u2019s roll-out of the updated school lunch programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bf0a468b1c74ee484bf604af406cd70\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m proud of it because that member was part of a Government that didn\u2019t fund it, and this is a Government that has come in, has funded the programme, and has extended it to more children. That\u2019s a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5ab6a180964400f86b288f3b0449cce\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Ragne Maxwell, principal of Porirua College, that the Ka Ora, Ka Ako programme is \u201Cone of the most direct ways to tackle intergenerational poverty\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bd2aaf3d8474186aaadd9a032fea086\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think it\u2019s an important thing for kids who come to school with no lunch. We\u2019re not willing to let them go hungry, we don\u2019t want them not to learn, and we don\u2019t want them ending up on, or being consigned to, welfare or other things. We want them to have potential and a future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220695ddbeec274a3887b16512b0f7806a\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement made this morning that some of the lunches aren\u2019t \u201Cup to scratch\u201D, and, if so, what is he doing as the Prime Minister to ensure our tamariki are given on-time, nutritious, edible kai?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022995477379fbc4c6780f229972cb42bcd\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, the Minister who is accountable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2519204c1864012833a8b45c900387f\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: No, what are you doing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e2a5dee63ac4be0bd413c4123e564ff\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m talking to the Minister to make sure that he has got everything he needs to make sure that he gets the food up to scratch and that the food that was contracted is being delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222920d3cf470940c8b5eb401acf8013b0\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Will he as Prime Minister take responsibility for failing to achieve the purpose of Ka Ora, Ka Ako, and feed our tamariki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286e83b38d2c04324a1719edbbc098d1f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, we have funded the programme and we\u2019ve extended it to more kids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b7b4d3ca75a41468433b027512a9038\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree hunger should never be a barrier to learning for the over 156,000 tamariki whose households cannot afford basic essentials, like food, and who deserve better from this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1819513741647c1b9a2d54d0f0e0211\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is why we have a welfare system and a school lunch programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d40bc4e7a1c34e8385969a53fef5fd35\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Government ever considered that there are comparisons of a former time when much poorer M\u0101ori families in largely M\u0101ori schools nevertheless provided the food for their children every day, with the older students doing the labour\u2014the\u00A0males\u2014and the girls doing the cooking, and never relying upon the State at that point in time, when we were being better educated at the same time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286a65caca0624c23918e94c4417d268a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do agree with the Minister that there is actually some parental responsibility. We would like not to have a State-funded lunch programme, but we do have one to make sure that we are supporting the kids who don\u2019t or can\u2019t have lunches, and make sure they can learn. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9b0fc1240b540c896e79dbcf548bbb2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Someone is about to leave. That\u2019s not to happen again. Unbelievable. All right? I know what I saw. I\u2019m not going to mention names, because that would be naming someone. I\u2019m not going to do that. Be very aware that that sort of level of barracking is not going to be accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea50b3d54d0a46c18cfc6f80f1b685e1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I think that\u2019s one of the most chauvinistic displays that we\u2019ve seen in the House in recent times. I think that is going to prompt a bit of a reaction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aef0243501348388c939e2ef343c613\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we can\u2019t, on the one hand, say that this is a House where people can, within bounds of decorum, speak freely, and then start asking the Chair to determine whether or not a view that\u2019s held by someone is acceptable or not. Frankly, I\u2019ve got my own strong views about lots of things, but I listen respectfully here in the House every day, and I expect every other member to do the same. You may not like what\u2019s being said, but there\u2019s every right for it to be said. I hope this isn\u2019t going to keep us going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc2fbfaea6884d30b5af6ce328f3b03c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, I take objection from a number of people who get up and give their views when questions are being asked of, clearly, events that they know nothing about\u2014poverty: how it smells, how it feels, what it tastes like\u2014and they show it every day in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c04085d7df3c4e6d95bde814077d757c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that was helpful!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d8275ae1a2d945c6a6d1c72c7c059047\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1a7f1ac5f104b6aaf4b2af5aea7de84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1a7f1ac5f104b6aaf4b2af5aea7de84\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does he agree with Mark Mitchell\u2019s statement, \u201CI think there\u2019s a real risk of seeing a tragedy unfold with members of the public who have become exasperated \u2026 every week I\u2019ve got to try and talk to people that want to take vigilante type action to actually protect themselves \u2026 That\u2019s the worst possible thing that could happen. And I\u2019d encourage people definitely not to go down that road\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002218b20103b01c4e6abdb6e93f03e2c457\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218b20103b01c4e6abdb6e93f03e2c457\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes\u2014and I agree that many New Zealanders have become exasperated at the high level of crime occurring in our communities and that vigilante justice is not the solution. That\u2019s why this Government is focused on restoring law and order, so people are confident that our justice system delivers real consequences for crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240bdea16ac6245cdbc032816719a223c\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What advice did Police give the Minister of Police on the public safety risks of citizen\u2019s arrest powers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299e33c158cc24d61af8016ab44bda8ed\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister of Justice is not responsible for advice received by the Minster of Police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218a90f9c0ac44fd78972aca0de9bc693\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227eedb066bcbc4b7cbd97bbcb22d90a31\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I assume?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252ed34193b8b499f8fecb54f0e8cb2bf\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Mr Speaker, this question was originally posed to the Minister of Police. The Government decided to transfer it to the Minister of Justice. Speakers\u2019 rulings and McGee are quite clear that if the Government decides to transfer a question to another Minister, that Minister should be in a position to answer the following supplementary questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222535ef8e79cc48e991753a7ec71935fb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Not to argue or correct you, but the decision by the Government has to be in favour of who can best answer the question that is placed as the primary question. I think the difficulty starts to arise where a question immediately reverts to a different Minister with an expectation that the Minister answering the question would have the same information. It\u2019s a messy process\u2014there\u2019s nothing clearer. But I\u2019ve sat in this House\u00A0for a long time and seen this sort of thing occur before. I think it is fair to say that the question that was asked would be information specific to the police Minister, not necessarily related to the primary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aebafc0a9092476490ce053f2a730038\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to that\u2014two points there. The first one is that the primary question was asking the Minister of Police if he agreed with statements that he had made before becoming Minister of Police. The issues may well occur when they transfer a question to the Minister of Justice, asking him to stand by a statement that someone else made. The second point is that if this Speaker\u2019s ruling and the expectation outlined in McGee is not, in your view, applicable here, can the Hon Ginny Andersen have another opportunity to ask that supplementary\u2014without penalty\u2014in a way that the Minister of Justice may have a better chance of answering?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9710006018c41f2be5b7b6ab3efe667\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, firstly, I\u2019m not disputing anything that\u2019s written there, but, clearly, it\u2019s my job to interpret it. I think that would be a reasonable way to progress, if the Hon Ginny Andersen asked a question, perhaps, about awareness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd2aab0cbca5432a9f6742485ac1fa16\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What advice did Police or the Ministry of Justice provide him on the safety risks associated with the new citizen\u2019s arrest power?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022044305f70b654c708dc29be512cf060a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: There was a range of advice. The Police, quite frankly, were not broadly in favour of the changes; they had concerns around potential impacts. We weighed that up against our concerns about the current situation, where that, during the day\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da4d80c5122f4ca2bcdb473d0ca1ca59\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Is that why Mitchell is hiding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b2d0bf9cbc7404894f5305ef73c016c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t say that. Just calm down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e47643fdacb4e048a47846108f0b160\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: We weighed that against other advice and considerations, given the fact that New Zealanders currently have citizen\u2019s arrest powers for things that happen at night. But then, if the same thing happens during the day, when somebody walks out of a shop with around $900\u00A0worth of food or clothing or electronics, nothing can be done about that, and we don\u2019t think that\u2019s the correct situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a83b26faf70d42ceab8c82bb4a4713f3\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What consultation did the Minister of Police or the Minister of Justice undertake with the Police Association regarding the impact of citizen arrest powers on front-line police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c0a21818c344bc49d8cc4eae3a6b66f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The proposals, in particular, came from the ministry advisory group led by Sunny Kaushal in response to a significant increase in retail crime over the past few years. New Zealanders are fed up with the level of retail crime that they are experiencing in our communities. That\u2019s why this Government has considered proposals to change the rules, because if you want to have a different outcome, sometimes you have to change things, and that is what we are proposing. So, in the course of developing those proposals, the ministry advisory group talked to a wide range of people, and, of course, when we introduce this legislation it will go off to the select committee and then many New Zealanders will have their say, including the Police Association. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ac32bbd68924a739d5beec4ff5aab39\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Will there be Police operational guidelines issued to the public in addition to his advice, \u201C[It\u2019s n]ot necessarily a headlock, it\u2019s just holding someone steady.\u201D; and if so, how long will the members of the public be allowed to \u201Chold someone steady\u201D for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224f2aa1c334746a394057ee095fe7d3a\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Minister Goldsmith is responsible for many things but he\u2019s not responsible for Police operational guidelines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224767c6e07d344cbdb5ec57596ae4b515\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Have you got another supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b892dbc2f6634bfca4b9a40d3b6cabd6\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Is a store owner required to inform the parents of a child who is being held steady or detained in a storeroom?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4412ca9cd8b4fe2bb98dce82f9c68c7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the requirements if a situation occurs when somebody is stealing from business and reasonable force is being used to detain that person\u2014the proposal is that they would then need to contact the police and follow instructions from police. Then that is the situation. It\u2019s already the law at five past nine at night and our proposal is to make it the law during the day, and, ultimately, every retail worker needs to consider the broad circumstances and the situation that they confront. But this Government makes no apology for coming up with new ideas and new responses to deal with the significant increase in retail crime that we experienced over the past few years. New Zealanders want change and that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to deliver. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225289827003a4470393f2b4e0c648bc2e\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: How does he justify a $3.6 million spend on the retail crime advisory group when there are 72 fewer police on our streets and methamphetamine use has doubled under his watch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d368eaef0214b12a421d5a97a45c416\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think people would recognise that retail crime costs our community billions of dollars, and all New Zealanders have to pay more for the things that they buy because some New Zealanders steal it and don\u2019t pay for it. That is why we think a modest investment in a retail advisory group to come up with bold ideas\u2014and the purpose behind the retail advisory group is to say, \u201CLook, we have a Ministry of Justice and a whole justice sector that has continued its ways a number of times, and we\u2019re open to radical new ideas coming from elsewhere, in order to come up with different solutions so that we can have better outcomes, and for New Zealanders to keep safe in their communities.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250c1f4c95a194e538cf09c9787d79f16\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the case right now that it is legal to initiate a citizen\u2019s arrest on someone stealing something at 9.01 p.m. at night with goods worth more than $1,000 but illegal to initiate a citizen\u2019s arrest at 8.59 p.m. at night for stealing a toaster, and does he think that this is a particularly sensible move to bring these things into line?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5652da626bb456bb29953be799c3605\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, I do think it is a sensible move. There\u2019ll be a wide variety of views, and I would note that there is one fellow called Stuart Nash, who said, \u201CI am a fan.\u201D, and there\u2019s no doubt about that. Of course, I can understand why he\u2019s out of step with the current Labour Government, which seems to be wanting to defend the current situation whereby people walk out of stores during the middle of the day and nobody can do anything about it apart from escort them to their car. New Zealanders are tired of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d30782b4f2940d6bd5a0e4f2b783f24\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Will he take responsibility if someone in New Zealand loses their life because of his law change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f64c099069c449cb5b99883e8781429\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: What I can tell that member is that the only person that is responsible for losing a life in a situation like that would be the person that took the life\u2014that swung the axe, that used the weapon to kill or hurt or maim somebody. If that member doesn\u2019t understand that and wants to create excuses for that kind of activity, then I don\u2019t think they understand how law and order should work in this country. We are very determined to ensure that New Zealanders are kept safe in their community, and that is why already in Government, we have brought back three strikes, increased sentencing reform, and given the police the powers that they need to deal with gangs. All of those things are designed to keep our communities safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fc3b5d8699642ef8221749e43699d45\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How long has the Minister believed that crimes were the fault of the person who committed them, and was he surprised to be asked about that fact just now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272b7f6b26d8a451ba472eaa8281369ec\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, I think one of the biggest changes in the last year or two in justice policy has been a shift away from a culture of excuses for crime that we inherited under the previous administration, where crimes were the fault of all sorts of reasons other than the actions of an individual. This Government is about restoring responsibility for criminal actions to the people who undertake those actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002246bc8811364f4627a3b192389a9e364f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u002210313dfa955745b3b5c2faad1e339318\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210313dfa955745b3b5c2faad1e339318\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb05935b25dd41e79cd7b1a3e48f6ebc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb05935b25dd41e79cd7b1a3e48f6ebc\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, especially our action to build the infrastructure that Kiwis need to get the country moving and our economy growing. That\u2019s why it was so positive last week to see the infrastructure pipeline continuing to grow, hitting almost $204\u00A0billion last quarter. We know that high inflation and interest rates have hit the construction sector hard in the last few years, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re so positive to see that $15 billion more than expected is going to be spent on infrastructure this year, with more than half that going to transport. New Zealand won\u2019t get rich doing phantom projects like Auckland light rail or Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving.\u00A0We\u2019ve got real projects that have an impact and get Kiwis growing and get the country moving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219d8bb9fc97740f6be29c050b6296ee2\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that if parents are unhappy with the Government\u2019s school lunches, they should \u201Cgo make a Marmite sandwich and put an apple in a bag\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da41876372e24f73b7e5f77f5c6bed13\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022205bf9eeed6a453aaa6c258bf7315f15\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that parents are sending their kids to school hungry because they are too lazy to make lunches or because they cannot afford to make their kids\u2019 lunches?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe178decd5d4486ba9c1270bfc503658\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Some, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022175b49bcf2e24f75970c043cf4913c58\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How will the parents who have lost their jobs, who have had their benefits sanctioned, who have been thrown out of emergency housing, afford to \u201Cgo make a Marmite sandwich and put an apple in a bag\u201D for the kids who cannot eat the Government\u2019s slop?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b17f2dd388694081a911fbc875e48cec\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: For those that are not provided with a lunch going to school, there is a school lunch programme, which has been extended, as I\u2019ve said before, to many more kids. There\u2019s also a welfare system that\u2019s available to help people in need. We continue to support both those programmes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d77bb17cffd64ea3b6b1d3be12c2fe51\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Will his decision to cut the school lunch programme make it easier or harder for children in low-income families who are already struggling to learn?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f5ebe0e1dcf4c528bd7274bcd966058\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We haven\u2019t cut the school lunch programme; we\u2019ve increased it. We\u2019ve funded it, which is what the last Government didn\u2019t do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6fc28c297ba4213875ec1b24791dfa9\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true. Supplementary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022759fd322d6064f81b00d5d299dc87414\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on. [Interruption] That\u2019s enough, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022624356bd7ae94c229dd51e7da64ba465\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, through the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5dc58bcb7c0405e9efe90adefa0603a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fa71a22ecbe4d24b70d67d6636c0be1\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I withdraw and apologise. What do you say to the 1 million people who can earn less than $30,000 and only get $2.15 tax cut per week when a loaf of bread costs $4 and 250 grams of Marmite costs $5?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228972337940e6438eb35ba7565fb4cf98\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d say that that\u2019s why this Government\u2019s working incredibly hard to grow the economy so that we can lift incomes and get people into more jobs so that they can have greater opportunity and more choices about how they get to live their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226a76439b10004ade9ca6771a80147f78\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e692ee42380f41f89c741d9d6080a6e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e692ee42380f41f89c741d9d6080a6e8\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Finance: What recent announcements has he made to encourage overseas investment into New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00226944d2aad553498ab705457e622abe9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226944d2aad553498ab705457e622abe9c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his question. On 23\u00A0February, I announced changes to the Overseas Investment Act. Cabinet has approved a package of legislative reforms that will ensure faster decision-making, greater investor certainty, and stronger national interest protections. Specifically, I announced reforms that will change the presumption of the Act to better acknowledge the benefits that international investment provides to New Zealand\u2019s economy. It will reduce the time frames for the regulator\u2019s assessment of most applications to 15 days unless escalated to a comprehensive assessment in more sensitive cases. These reforms will make New Zealand a more attractive place to invest, enabling businesses to access capital, grow, and create higher paying jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242a444328bdf4796a7e00e3989450d1d\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Government believe these reforms are necessary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220596bdebc19b4c909b6af1663d929265\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Because we follow economic evidence. The evidence in particular is clear around productivity. Our growth has stalled. It was at 1.4 percent per year from 1993-2013, but only 0.2 percent over the decade to date. One of the keys to improving productivity and driving growth will be reversing these trends by ensuring that Kiwi businesses get the investment they need to grow. When businesses get capital, they can invest in better technology, expand production, and pay their workers more. That\u2019s what this Government is committed to enabling with these reforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0c44c58026d4e5782fd12b7dc1abe9e\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: How do these reforms compare with overseas investment regimes in other countries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022017ad88297384f0d97978ecaafea2cf2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand is currently one of the hardest countries to invest in. Other OECD countries such as Australia, Canada, or the United Kingdom protect their natural interests effectively; meanwhile, they receive billions more foreign direct investment than we do. The reality is that other countries are competing for global capital while we\u2019ve been scaring it away. That must change and it is changing, including with these changes to the Overseas Investment Act, making us a country that actually welcomes our friends around the world sending their money and their ideas to our country so we can trade value for value, and get stronger together with higher wages and better jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256c50323335d453190834072520e2c4a\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: What protections remain in place to safeguard New Zealand\u2019s national interests?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dee893ba6b84e9e9aaeaa84b97e642d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A concise answer would be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b77b2fff455e4f858ca607d45202efcf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: That was concise; there\u2019s just a lot of quality content.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b69613c72b0f4818924605d60c9edc75\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if that\u2019s concise you\u2019re rewriting the dictionary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a6b88d6105447d993ed9731a348fcff\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: This Government believes in smarter regulation, not more regulation. We are retaining screening for farmland, residential property, and fishing quota, and we\u2019re strengthening our ability to intervene if an investment is genuinely against New Zealand\u2019s national interests. These reforms ensure that the Government has the power to step in when needed. A ministerial directive letter will provide clear guidance to Land Information New Zealand in case additional scrutiny is needed to protect our true national interests, in particular our national security and our public order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ca5440c290334a4589e1ab7dd74f1879\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002275e0d0816d2c41d79f1da61d6fc46eac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275e0d0816d2c41d79f1da61d6fc46eac\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education: Does he stand by his statement that school lunches would be \u201Cthe same quality or better\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca4f5ce8cf64462dbafe22ed8c3c8ead\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca4f5ce8cf64462dbafe22ed8c3c8ead\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for her question. Yes, I do stand by that statement, and the reason is that the programme has been set up to ensure that the nutritional standards under the previous iteration of the school lunch programme will be met under this iteration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229263f2ac67c949dba648ee913efe6e2a\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: How are plastic containers melting into food the same or better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274d48f3e7fc84004b56fb2821ba498c6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Plastic containers melting into food is not a part of the programme. For the member to claim that would be to say that every single failure, including, if I recall, seven different food safety investigations into the prior scheme, were a feature of that programme. Now, I\u2019m sure the member wouldn\u2019t think that the Ministry for Primary Industries investigations into the lunches she served were a part of the programme. However, in this particular instance, we have taken it very seriously and done so rapidly. We have investigated the cause, which was the overheating of plastic by using the wrong temperature in an oven in one of the 27 regional kitchens and then failing to do correct quality control before they were sent out. The people concerned have been spoken to about this and we are taking steps to ensure that it won\u2019t happen again. And this is important because we are here to make things better every day, and we are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225488d42eef3b4e0ab6d4fcc81ff76e9a\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s ChatGPT at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226073db4ce6e4aab82765b371c31a3c3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon? She said it\u2019s ChatGPT. I tell you what, if that member used ChatGPT, she\u2019d make a lot more sense. And ChatGPT doesn\u2019t hallucinate as much as that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c35c747479094bb381f7a25ada36e995\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. That\u2019s enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ad047ccf71a4b0fb2f60320008c677c\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: How are undelivered meals, that leave kids hungry all day, better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d37330cdc334cf0b133cf7819e9b2dd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: That would be no better if it were true. However, it is not. As I said in my primary answer, if the member heard me say that, the specifications and standards for the healthy school lunch programme are equal to those under the previous programme. But I tell you what they are much better than: they are much better than zero, because people tend to forget that when the previous Government budgeted for the healthy school lunch programme, there was a fiscal cliff where there was no money in the Budget for the healthy school lunch programme in 2025. That\u2019s a Minister, in the past, who budgeted no money for healthy school lunch programmes; this Government is delivering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adeae1e16ca340c5bb176036eb3166fb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those answers can go on for as long as they like as long as that barracking continues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f20ffe2964f744389e15bc24999c818d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206474329c64c4156aeed6ca1774354d7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c29ddb2b5f4e41abbc7c5a7d9253db93\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: How is providing the same meal 13 days in a row better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219dbe16fffbc469286e2b13e6ac94ddc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I think I addressed this question, and it speaks to the issue of what people are happy to have and not. In this particular instance, I seem to recall it was actually butter chicken. Now, a lot of people I know, if someone gave them butter chicken for free 13 times, they wouldn\u2019t be complaining. They\u2019d actually be thrilled. Namaste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228874075fe432459c951da56fb6067331\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: How is school staff having to go to a bakery to buy sandwiches because their school\u2019s lunches were not delivered better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da3db3fc37404bf980525eb21b14d6b6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Throughout this programme we\u2019ve been upfront and honest about any teething problems we\u2019ve had, and then we\u2019ve fixed them. That\u2019s what you do when you have challenges. You own it, you accept it, and then you fix it. And in terms of fixing it, yesterday on 3\u00A0March, we achieved 99 percent on-time delivery up and down New Zealand. That\u2019s how you start off with a problem\u2014you put on your thinking cap, you solve it, and make the world a better place. And if that member had done it when she was the Minister, we wouldn\u2019t have to work quite so hard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220353d9eee7e44c4b9a62748ed9526fb4\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: How are hundreds of local jobs being lost up and down the motu in favour of a centralised system that clearly doesn\u2019t work better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250206e14f37449beb894479bc5e8797a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that it is working better. Wherever there are problems, we fix them, and in many instances, we hear from children that they believe that the food is better. There\u2019s been some confusion. For example, that member tweeted outrage at the quality of the healthy school lunch programme, but we all know how this ends. She forgot it was a picture that had been sent to her of the school lunches that she was responsible for. [Interruption] And I\u2019ve got something else. I\u2019ve got news for the member. I heard a rumour that cannot be substantiated that that picture was sent to Jan Tinetti by Young ACT. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c62843daab92463b88935d696886990c\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: If his school lunch\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213f961c534dd4b1d99638fca7d32e69c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225871dbc88edf408c9310695c9d8753f0\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: If his school lunch programme is better, how is it that he won\u2019t even show up to a meeting with the education Minister, the Hon Erica Stanford, to discuss it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d956e842d09e4e448c339bae672b2d05\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s very simple. We had a meeting scheduled, contingent on our respective caucuses finishing on time. But the ACT caucus is a very tight, busy, and productive group of people, and we can\u2019t always be ready for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cff166a0584a45e3b76d37cb25bb4e50\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: And who chairs it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f894a22b3bfd455e8d9218f50b2299e1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the chairmanship of the ACT caucus I\u2019m being asked about now, Mr Speaker; I\u2019ve got to say that I am a great admirer of David Seymour\u2019s chairmanship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c9eae6f0e4e42bcad4f84c8b28f2738\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c01c2eceaf1347b39fd82e22c6b02372\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c01c2eceaf1347b39fd82e22c6b02372\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What recent announcements has he made to improving access to timely, quality healthcare for all New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00228ee0aaa15246459baecbc4ec53022a18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ee0aaa15246459baecbc4ec53022a18\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Yesterday, the Prime Minister and I announced a boost for primary healthcare to help Kiwis access timely and quality primary care for all New Zealanders. This includes 100 clinical placements for overseas-trained doctors to work in primary care, incentives to recruit up to 400 graduate nurses per year for the next three years, a new 24/7 digital healthcare service for online medical appointments, and a $285\u00A0million performance-based uplift for general practice over the next three years. Our Government is putting patients first, and these measures will help ensure Kiwis have more access to the care they need, where they need it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daa1f9f535374382b5065c83e7bc679d\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government increasing the numbers of overseas-trained doctors working in primary care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d93e12b54e64e7199574e9b80f4b8df\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we all know that we need more doctors. That\u2019s why we are funding a new two-year primary care training programme for up to 100 extra overseas-trained doctors. It makes no sense that overseas-trained doctors living in New Zealand who are willing to work in primary care can\u2019t, because there aren\u2019t the training opportunities available to them. By funding 100 clinical placements, we will provide them with the support needed to work in general practice with our most needed, putting their skills to good use so that New Zealanders have improved access to both timely and quality care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224b8ef6bc56d481d8af509d474f4ec8f\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: How will the new 24/7 digital healthcare service improve access to timely, quality healthcare for all New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220501acc07d524d1e9760e984b0b14518\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we are investing in a new digital healthcare service that\u00A0Kiwis can see a doctor or a nurse, get prescriptions and lab referrals any time, anywhere, using their phone or laptop. Enabling Kiwis to access video consultations with registered clinicians at any time from anywhere will play a key role in improving access to timely, quality healthcare for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229866e658c2864a48913215e8ffee2979\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen from the healthcare sector about the Government\u2019s healthcare boost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226259643ec3424706b08ce27bc7aad86f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, good news. I\u2019ve seen some very positive reports from the sector. The chair of General Practice New Zealand, Dr Bryan Betty, said, yesterday, that our Government\u2019s investment will \u201Chelp ensure that patients receive the care they need when they need it, while also strengthening the sustainability of the workforce.\u201D The College of GPs\u2019 president, Dr Samantha Murton, has backed our actions, saying that \u201Cfocusing attention and resources on general practice and primary care will go a long way to turning our health services [around].\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002222e799028d884346a7af4dedbad3f9a6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8dd0fbe0fed442d9d1fb833f49138d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8dd0fbe0fed442d9d1fb833f49138d1\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Police: What announcements has she made regarding the Government\u2019s commitment to boost front-line police numbers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00228bfb313cb0dc4e6da77ac1ae2315889b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bfb313cb0dc4e6da77ac1ae2315889b\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E On Sunday, I announced that the New Zealand Police will be opening a training base in Auckland, increasing the training capacity of police and supporting the attraction and training of quality new officers from our largest market. This Government is committed to restoring law and order, and adding a training facility in Auckland is another example of what can be achieved with a Government that is backing police. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275c5b6f8e23f4674861c7d298b9c2c58\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait for the calm to come. Yeah, when you\u2019re ready.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245679747b26c44f4b5942ac511fa8420\u0022\u003ETanya Unkovich\u003C/span\u003E: Why is another training facility needed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221036bd93b4394ec9ad7bbddf0e121449\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: This Government wants to do everything they can to drive recruitment, increase the number of police, and make our communities safer. Opening a training facility in Auckland is a concrete example of that. This Government knows that delivering our additional 500 police is not just about delivering people but implementing the systems and providing the resources that invest in the front line, which includes expanding our training facilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226348fedbf424d64b929601458fc0e54\u0022\u003ETanya Unkovich\u003C/span\u003E: How does adding a training facility in Auckland complement other work being done to boost recruitment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222321c338199d462189fc4014136efeb2\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: Police now have record numbers of applicants, and having an extra training location will support their efforts to get applicants through the pipeline and into training faster. I would like to recognise and commend the efforts of the recruitment teams and the Police front line, who have worked diligently to improve processes, create efficiencies, engage earlier with our applicants, and achieve an outstanding pipeline of quality recruits that are now entering the college.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df70aa33d2db422b833ac2fc39dbdcff\u0022\u003ETanya Unkovich\u003C/span\u003E: How are Police recruitment processes becoming more agile and fit for purpose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaa8ade20ce84b61b82df2c01ab9f7e4\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m advised that Police are holding recruitment days where resources will be on site to assist applicants in moving through the first stages of recruitment processes at the time to help reduce wait time within the current processes. We have reconfigured the advertising campaign with the relaunch of the He Ain\u2019t Heavy campaign to ensure that the quality of police is recognised and the service they deliver is recognised. We have also recently launched an updated version of the recruitment management system to allow candidates to better manage their recruitment experience and support Police to understand what options there may be for future improvements. Police are working incredibly hard, investing resources nationally and across the districts, and I would also highlight the Round the Bays efforts, which will be in Christchurch at the end of this month, where we are actively engaging with the public to attract recruitment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b0a260a418f404a9d85147358fc15ea\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister, does this build on the multi-tranche record of New Zealand First with respect to 2,338 new front-line police when we were last in Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eab0602b8cf443eb955a0322948744c3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In so much as the Minister\u2019s got knowledge of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241f8c0fe0a00499a9f4f44e9e5bd5b3e\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can commend that, and it is the reason that we recognise that we also need to complement investment and training resources and trainers and capacity to meet the added demands for front-line police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b76e515711c4660b76f3e6d6e222a2a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Rail\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00220f49827e2faf40bfbe6a38bf79abf1c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f49827e2faf40bfbe6a38bf79abf1c3\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Rail: Did he discuss in his meeting with Hyundai on Friday, 28 February 2025 the cancellation of the rail-enabled ferries; if so, did Hyundai raise any concerns about future shipbuilding contracts with the New Zealand Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002221337e963a974840b3d0bcd0505863f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221337e963a974840b3d0bcd0505863f3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister for Rail):\u003C/span\u003E I want to thank that very sensible member for his very sensible question. We shared with Hyundai the fact that a two-ferry project in May 2020 involving $400.1 million of Government funding, when I was Minister, was on track to reach over $4 billion under his Government\u2014that is, the Opposition now. The core objective of infrastructure to safely berth ships blew out to involve the highest possible specifications for the renewal of almost every piece of infrastructure, all at the taxpayer\u2019s expense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cab1ac0fbaf4c6fb1ab75d3297b9893\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2c0e61b01f74bb19de0cd3e8628e4d4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m going to ask the Minister to consider the question that was asked and perhaps make some comment, at least, on the intent of that question, which was about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022777259469d9e42eead4901bf9276dd68\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I used the words \u201CWe shared with Hyundai\u201D\u2014that\u2019s the answer to the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275b01021707d40198b9a218fd5d4830e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: No, it isn\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f71c9609149144839de4f5ca2e3ee0e8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275b637c5ec1f4d588b246ad94ae8dcb7\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is\u2014you\u2019ve got to get an education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c821eaac3d54110bff0bf91b505e25c\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Did he discuss the $300 million break fee with Hyundai; if so, what did they have to say? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e053ff89178042199c9dbb3807b8debd\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It would be unusual that a Minister in that circumstance did not have that as part of the background information, but with respect to that discussion, that lies with KiwiRail and Hyundai in a contractual sense. However, that so-called $300 million break fee has been misrepresented by the questioner in the sense that there were a whole lot of infrastructural costs that made up that $300 million, not just the iReX project. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fcd16c224f5459598d1c4bd8719c9a5\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: How confident is he that Hyundai will put in another contract bid for the new Cook Strait ferries when they are currently negotiating out of an existing contract with this Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022010d656938c147e4aeae52ffbeb933cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got some good news for the member: their head,\u00A0S Y Park, was delighted to meet us. With his team, we had a very, very amiable and profitable discussion, and we were delighted to learn of their renewed interest in this tendering process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226aa55420c3624a4a8e3fe82c05811f27\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that it was his Government that triggered the multimillion-dollar break fee with Hyundai that\u2019s now required him to go back calling for a redo? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272ede4fe1a1845c083640c2b4f4c39ef\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It is correct that when this present Government realised that a $400.1 million project was blowing out past $4 billion, in the interests\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022885325900f4b4a708996e3d525d984d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292567283bf024ddfbec0347b2ba5b726\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is probably not true\u2014it\u2019s probably $4.2 billion, but I\u2019m being modest now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229282a06b548b4cccb780411f786ff347\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s just not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ced360c0fc144ae1a0e81dc85d5e72ed\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: If that part is not true, it probably would have been $400.2 billion. It is true, and what would that member know about costing? He\u2019s said in his speeches recently that the mistake they made with all of their calculations was that they didn\u2019t do the work on it in the first place\u2014and this was just one more example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfdf9131951b489f9e68a9f7c602afc5\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Did he consult with the Minister of Finance, Nicola Willis, before inviting a new bid from Hyundai, and, if so, what was her response? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022732fd10d465c4f0e97c65744891e1c77\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: In this Government, we\u2019re famous for consulting with each other, and she wished me the very best and hoped that I could fix up the Labour Party\u2019s mess. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022700a529118d248108de05861f8105e39\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: If Hyundai signs another contract for new ferries with this Government, is he confident that Nicola Willis won\u2019t pull the rug out from under them again? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd482d0231d84bc2a2a2327a13cb2a1b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is that no responsible finance Minister could not take the action that the Minister of Finance took, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b14e6bff7ef24e6db3f23b0e53fdd9f4\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, oh! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e55c3cbb396434e94f8118476ce3a29\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the responsibility of a good Government is to be\u00A0as careful about spending the taxpayer\u2019s money as they are about spending their own\u2014not borrow and hope, frivolously throwing it away, and running the country into tens of billions of dollars of debt, which is the reason why they\u2019re over there and we\u2019re over here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7003ab47abf405ea3e24ee18b9ffb7e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Infrastructure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u00225bbe2863c87542639abab1f9e4e60f91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bbe2863c87542639abab1f9e4e60f91\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Infrastructure: What recent announcements has he made about improving infrastructure funding and financing to get more houses built?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022530ea704331d4d8799131075a0dcd0f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022530ea704331d4d8799131075a0dcd0f1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister for Infrastructure):\u003C/span\u003E Last Friday, I announced pillar two of the Government\u2019s Going for Housing Growth policy, five improvements to infrastructure funding and financing to support urban growth: replacing development contributions with development levies, regulatory oversight of those levies, increasing the flexibility of targeted rates, improving the Infrastructure Funding and Financing Act, and broadening existing tools to support value capture. We\u2019re developing a flexible tool kit to support growth paying for growth, to allow a responsive supply of infrastructure where it\u2019s commercially viable to build new houses. A flood of urban land coming to market plus responsive infrastructure will unlock an abundance of development opportunities, drive down the price of land, and make housing more affordable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bbca699b1e24409815b5a9fcb14446a\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: Why do our existing funding and financing tools need to change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209a8f34af9724e4480902a82d8ceaba9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: As I think many members around the House acknowledge and recognise, as indeed councils and developers do as well, there are significant challenges in our infrastructure system around funding and financing. Development contributions, for example, can only recover infrastructure costs for planned and costed developments, meaning councils need certainty about when and where the growth will occur. It is true that some councils have not been able to effectively recover growth costs, leaving ratepayers to pick up the cheque and cross-subsidise that growth\u2014for example, at Drury, and there are other examples that members will be aware of around the country. We are creating an environment in which there are no ceilings on how high our cities can grow and there are no rings around how far our cities can expand. And that means the days of careful drip-feeding of land into a hot market fed by artificial scarcity, driving up land prices and therefore house prices, is over. We are creating a system where if you want to build and you can fund the infrastructure to build it, subject to normal environmental constraints, you can go for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a4b5de0f1654928a79d9324eeb6d9d1\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: What impact will these reforms have on New Zealand\u2019s economic productivity and growth, and how would that compare with a scheme such as, say, KiwiBuild?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5950800b85d4209ae38da4493439eca\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, one of the single best things New Zealand can do to get productivity going in this country is fix our dysfunctional housing market, make housing more affordable, and make sure we get on top of the $4 billion we spend as a Government every year on housing subsidies. Bigger cities are better cities and they are drivers of economic growth and productivity, so we are focused on fixing the fundamentals, not tinkering around the edges but focusing on what actually drives our housing market: land supply; responsive infrastructure funding and financing; and, in due course\u2014with our friends in the ACT Party\u2014we\u2019ll get to incentives as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dc237ea2e784f5e85c50a0bd3f78cd3\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: In devising these new reforms, did the Minister reference at any point a speech given to The New Zealand Initiative by the Hon Phil Twyford, and has that influenced his thinking at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfd4a57bb0544fe2af06f3a14d2c0a4b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: I hope not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022958ef6d659db4169a18456f9e61c2831\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Good question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022927056ddb5cd44caa7cd15bf4b8e3bae\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those little chips are not particularly helpful. The House knows that someone can be questioned about what reports they\u2019ve seen or what information they might have received. Both those questions complied with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b704f49d25e24b9ea3b139cc0fe47626\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, one of the theses advanced by Mr Twyford in his New Zealand Initiative speech\u2014I think it was from May 2019\u2014was that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e6cc949b4d74da3b3458250ac539704\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, that\u2019s not the way to do it. You were asked about what you\u2019d seen. You don\u2019t need to go through what he said or where he was going. Have you seen it or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222193f88553544e649f40f07af0ad9919\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I was answering the question\u2014which is that urban containment policies have driven up land prices and house prices, and that is the underlying thrust of the Government\u2019s policy ambition in this area, which is to let our cities grow. We are a country with a land mass the size of the United Kingdom. With only 5 million people, we have created a housing market that has seen the fastest house price growth in the Western World in the last two decades. The solutions to that are to let our cities and regions grow, and sort out the infrastructure system so that they can, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe076a85f0d04371b8edd7265cf43095\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a819cb91c16843ae9b330647a422f28c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Simon\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218a427c1a5d34a358b2014a808c07d2d\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9f289e66b08493ca86aeeff336bf2c0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255caa3f786414b51974953bf6ab4ff43\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: I thought they could swap with each other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222601638604d74c8fb2c2167ed41bff46\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f753fc87d9e74d248cf3e36b9b53290b\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Simon somebody or other\u2014simple Simon!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f9a72e2af6b46ecbc1b5977055ce457\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, Mr Court, I wasn\u2019t expecting you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b7241be8dca4fe69b474786c0bd4702\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Minister, how do the new funding and financing tools, announced last week, line up with the value capture\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220f4e14fae4b4fca8cd190f5faeee76b\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise to the member Simon Court, asking the question, but Peeni Henare made a comment, first of all, by the nature of which I think he should withdraw and apologise if he respects the House; and, second of all, he should be silent while a question\u2019s being asked, as with when somebody\u2019s raising a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022971061680c4a40c789d68f16dd992bf2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I don\u2019t know what was said\u2014I didn\u2019t hear it. I\u2019ll have to ask Mr Henare, was there something that was said that might be slightly out of order and therefore require a withdrawal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed984b095b42484787875be5b1049697\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, if I may, sir. For my comment, I withdraw and apologise. For the second point that the member made, the question hadn\u2019t even started, which is the offering of help I gave and offered you and the House, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d6bcdac91ae40b7a428c09c67918d6d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you very much. I always appreciate that, much less than people realise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226edd8c1a1c7842a7924fcf9023070f4a\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, thank you very much. How do the new funding and financing tools, last week, line up with the value capture approach outlined in the ACT-National coalition agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239ff5ef69b3b445998ca2bf5ad1e6ca6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s been good to work with my under-secretary on this policy. One of the changes that didn\u2019t receive a lot of attention last week was a change that Cabinet has agreed around value capture for major transport projects, which we believe will unlock a new funding stream for city-shaping infrastructure like highways, rapid busways, and potentially metro. Our simple proposition is that those who benefit from publicly funded infrastructure should help contribute to the cost of it. So the changes that the Government\u2019s making will allow infrastructure funding and financing levies to be charged on landowners, for example, to help to fray the cost of major State highways and, indeed, other public transport projects that are located next to them that drive up the value of that land and make it more likely that people will actually utilise that land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259b5b8ca92b744bab6766d7ff9620ee2\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has he heard from the sector about these changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022009c3e231aee44f38b4e0d8a014751a6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is a complicated area but we have worked through the issues with the expert advisory group and it is very pleasing to see much support from around the community. The Property Council New Zealand says it\u2019s an important step towards creating a more sustainable and transparent approach. Tauranga Mayor Mah\u00E9 Drysdale and Hamilton Mayor Paula Southgate said it was a much-needed change. Local Government New\u00A0Zealand said it was a game-changer and developers have also said that it will save cost, resources, time, and, at the end of the day, the end user gets a cheaper product. I do want to acknowledge the support of the Opposition on this\u2014genuinely\u2014who said that it seems like a step in the right direction. I\u2019m in the middle of arranging a briefing for the Opposition in relation to these reforms. It does pick up on some of the thrust of where Mr Twyford was taking things when he was housing spokesperson. I am keen to get bipartisan buy-in to these things. It is one of the most fundamentally important things this Government or, indeed, this country can do to fix our housing crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4c91c5ca6814ca9b8c55f903eafae74\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7db684419c44b3f9dbbaac0152f5566\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7db684419c44b3f9dbbaac0152f5566\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd3aec26f6794cc5a3df816cee0eb7a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd3aec26f6794cc5a3df816cee0eb7a9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022865dfb09b4db4ff0b4ce78a46f799d2c\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the statement of his climate change Minister regarding the Paris Agreement that \u201CIt\u2019s not a liability on our books, it\u2019s intent and there is no legal obligation in the context around that.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4449e8b13e24a59ace48a548c01bbc3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I agree that we are working incredibly hard to deliver on Nationally Determined Contribution (NDC) 1 for 2030, and I also note that we have signed up for NDC2 in 2035.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ddc0eebe3b348909c8dc10e70ad4f0e\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government committed to meeting the Paris Agreement or does he agree with his climate change Minister that Aotearoa be just \u201Cseen to do its part\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce75edf0e87e49bcbd96aa7b423a7e47\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What we\u2019re committed to doing is going incredibly hard on economic growth and we\u2019re going to make sure that it\u2019s in our national interest to continue to do so. We\u2019ll continue to put Kiwis first and make sure that we\u2019re acting in our own national interest. But we are determined to drive for growth, and we are going to do everything we can to deliver on net zero 2050.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e9f0b02152c4c669b6b52817546f36f\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Prime Minister so far unwilling to use the word \u201Ccommitted\u201D, as in the Government is committed to meeting our nationally determined contribution under the Paris Agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afde6f04960441fc946a8c6caaab459c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what I\u2019m very pleased about is that our NDC2 2035 target now finally aligns with our internal targets for New Zealand net zero 2050.That\u2019s a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6e2c490668e48d59bab594f41a769fb\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister and his Government committed to meeting our Nationally Determined Contribution under the Paris Agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa95c7b60c5a46b1b7830abb59ccb325\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We are committed to delivering on net zero 2050, as we have consistently said from the beginning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225e760f5cfd34f4388eab30cfca77599\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister committed to meeting our Nationally Determined Contribution under the Paris Agreement, and can he be specific about that commitment under the Paris Agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022680c9d8411d14d08865703dca8353f89\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got nothing further to my previous answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220bb39317c1284a339e0a644ce37c72eb\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d2a703ad79d48afb98d3fab113b70ff\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u2014Ministerial Resignation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4e6c16c5650486681fc3f45b5866914\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4e6c16c5650486681fc3f45b5866914\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of a matter of urgent public business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOne of the core responsibilities of a Prime Minister is to set standards for ministerial conduct and hold them accountable when they do not meet those standards. The current Prime Minister has set the bar so low that Ministers now need to sack themselves, as Andrew Bayly did last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s recap the facts. It appears, for Andrew Bayly, that abusing someone for working late, calling them a loser, and telling them to \u201Ceff off and go home\u201D was insufficient for the Prime Minister to do anything. Then, when Andrew Bayly manhandled a member of his staff, finally it seems that the Prime Minister reached his particular threshold. However, no one in the Government, other than Andrew Bayly, is willing to offer an account of actually what happened. It seems justice, in this Government\u2019s eyes, is that the only person who gets to speak, the only person whose version of the facts gets heard is the perpetrator; the victim, the person who made the complaint, is invisible in the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe complaint was received on Wednesday. Andrew Bayly, even though the complaint had been received, continued to act as if nothing had happened, continued to do media interviews as if nothing had happened. The Prime Minister wasn\u2019t even told about the complaint until, by his office\u2019s own admission, very late on Thursday night. What kind of outfit is this Government running that a complaint about a Minister physically manhandling a member of their staff was not even presented to the Prime Minister until more than 24 hours after it was received? And what kind of outfit are this Government operating where the Prime\u00A0Minister did nothing about it until the following night when, allegedly, Andrew Bayly offered his resignation\u2014offered his resignation to the Prime Minister, apparently, and yet there is no record of that happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIn fact, it appears that Andrew Bayly\u2019s resignation didn\u2019t actually take effect until the following Monday. Is that correct? Who was actually the Minister of those portfolios over the weekend? If Andrew Bayly had resigned on the Friday, when did the resignation take effect from? Who was the Minister over the weekend? And why did the Prime Minister do media conferences over the weekend where he didn\u2019t think to mention it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhat kind of level of transparency have we reached now that the Prime Minister can stand in front of the media, knowing that one of his Ministers had been accused of manhandling a member of his staff and had either resigned or maybe was refusing to resign or was being told they should resign, and yet he didn\u2019t think to say anything about that to the New Zealand public? Business as usual for the Government, no transparency with the New Zealand public, and yet the Prime Minister thinks that\u2019s OK. We have a Prime Minister now whose bar for ministerial conduct has fallen that low that he will wait for an entire weekend to pass, five days after the alleged incident took place, before actually taking any concrete action to hold Andrew Bayly to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EStill, we hear no account from the Government about what actually happened. Andrew Bayly said he grabbed the member of staff by the arm. That\u2019s the only account of what happened. What does the complainant say? Why won\u2019t the Government be up front about exactly what the complaint was that led to Andrew Bayly resigning? Has the Prime Minister asked him exactly what happened? The Prime Minister wouldn\u2019t even answer that. If he has asked him, what did Andrew Bayly say? Did the Prime Minister or anyone in his office speak to the person who had the complaint; if they hadn\u2019t, why didn\u2019t they? It\u2019s a pretty serious allegation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhere a Minister in the Government is accused of something like that, it is very reasonable for the New Zealand public to expect that it will be thoroughly investigated. There was an incident where this happened before, an independent investigation took place, and the outcome of that investigation was shared with the public, and there were consequences for the Minister concerned. Under this Government, nothing. The facts are not being shared with the public. The Prime Minister did nothing. The Minister himself had to resign, had to hold himself accountable in a way that the Prime Minister was not willing to, and still we don\u2019t know exactly what it was that happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe have a Prime Minister now who has set the standard, set the bar so low that criticism of the courts is OK, threatening to cut funding of other organisations is OK, and now laying hands on a staff member is something that the Prime Minister did not think was a sackable offence\u2014although, did he? It\u2019s still not entirely clear whether Andrew Bayly would have been sacked, had he not resigned, or not, because depending on what day of the week the Prime Minister is asked a question, the answer seems to change. It\u2019s a relatively simple question: would Andrew Bayly have been sacked had he not resigned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why the time line is important, because did Andrew Bayly actually resign on the Friday? Will the paper trail, which the Government should release\u2014and by paper trail, I include in that text messages\u2014will that actually reveal that Andrew Bayly resigned on the Friday or will it actually indicate that Andrew Bayly didn\u2019t resign until the Monday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EActually, the critical thing here is: when was the Governor-General informed that a Minister had resigned? If the Prime Minister was told of the resignation of Andrew Bayly on the Friday and did not relay that to the Governor-General until the Monday, the Prime Minister has not lived up to his constitutional responsibility, because it isn\u2019t actually the Prime Minister\u2019s job to receive a Minister\u2019s resignation; that is the Governor-General\u2019s responsibility. If the Prime Minister received the resignation and did not pass that on to the Governor-General, then he has actually breached his constitutional obligation when it comes to Ministers holding ministerial warrants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhen did the Prime Minister tell the Governor-General that he had received the resignation of a Minister? Once he had received it, he has one obligation at that point, and that is to tell the Governor-General whose job it is to issue and retract the warrants that he\u2019d received the resignation. If he received it on the Friday and didn\u2019t tell the Governor-General until the Monday, then he has not fulfilled his constitutional responsibility. Will, on the other hand, the paper trail show that the resignation was not actually received until the Monday? In which case, why should the New Zealand public believe anything the Prime Minister is saying?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIs the real reason that the Prime Minister did not say, in his media conferences over the weekend, that he\u2019d received the resignation of Andrew Bayly\u2014is the real reason he didn\u2019t mention that because Andrew Bayly, in fact, was refusing to resign? That is a question the Prime Minister should be answering for the New Zealand public. These are serious allegations\u2014allegations that we still do not know the full extent of, and yet the Government aren\u2019t willing to share the details of that with the New Zealand public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EPrivacy is important. The privacy of the complainant is important. Details of the nature of the complaint can be shared without the identity of the complainant being revealed, and, in fact, the Government have a responsibility to do so. It\u2019s well and truly past time that the Government fronted up and answered questions about exactly what took place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhat exactly did Andrew Bayly do\u2014and not Andrew Bayly\u2019s version of events, but what he is alleged to have done? What does the complaint actually allege Andrew Bayly did? Why did the Prime Minister\u2019s office not tell the Prime Minister until late Thursday night, 48 hours after it actually happened? Why did it then take three more days for the Prime Minister to be up front with the New Zealand public about that? Did the Prime Minister fulfil his obligations as Prime Minister to inform the Governor-General of a resignation of a Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThese are serious questions; they\u2019re not trivialities. They actually cut to the heart of the integrity of the processes of the New Zealand Government, and it\u2019s about time the Prime Minister fronted up and answered those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002262f9cf100ffb4e33847720ff9eacb2ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262f9cf100ffb4e33847720ff9eacb2ab\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to speak in this urgent debate. Let me begin by saying, as Andrew Bayly has\u00A0made very clear in his statement, that there was an animated discussion in which he inappropriately put his hand on the upper arm of an employee. Andrew Bayly has apologised, and Andrew Bayly has taken full responsibility for his actions. Andrew Bayly has then subsequently resigned from his ministerial portfolios, which shows personal responsibility for his actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve listened to the Leader of the Opposition try and find a conspiracy here. All he\u2019s been doing for the last 10 minutes is trying to find a conspiracy. Well, the reality is: it\u2019s not.\u00A0What this is called is \u201Cpersonal responsibility\u201D, and Andrew Bayly has taken personal responsibility for his actions. He has apologised to the staff member, and then he has resigned\u00A0because, as he said, the actions which took place didn\u2019t meet his own expectations and his own standards. He has, ultimately, taken responsibility for his own actions, and that is something which I recognise and all members of the National Party recognise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWe acknowledge Andrew Bayly for taking that action, for recognising that, and for, ultimately, resigning from that position because he did not meet his own standards and because of the actions that he took. Ultimately, on this side of the House, it is very clear that whilst Andrew Bayly did something which was inappropriate, we have standards, and we take responsibility for our own actions, and that is why Andrew Bayly subsequently resigned from the positions that he had in his ministerial warrants last Monday. I just want to acknowledge Andrew Bayly for doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe second issue here is in relation to the points that have been made by the Leader of the Opposition. Here he is, trying to stand up like some sort of self-righteous individual who\u2019s better and more holier than thou. That\u2019s what he\u2019s trying to do. We all remember the\u00A0number of Ministers, under the last Government, who they held on to week after week\u00A0after week, trying to hold on to them. We had Stuart Nash. We had Michael Wood being told 17\u00A0times from the Cabinet Office\u201417 times from the Cabinet Office\u2014to sell his shares.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll tell you what happened in that instance. Well, when finally\u2014finally\u2014the story came out on 6 June 2023 and the media reported on Wood\u2019s Auckland Transport shares, he was only stood down from his transport portfolio\u2014only stood down from his transport portfolio. He then took two days to sell them; he had had 18 months or two years. He sold them in two days. But he failed to tell the Prime Minister, \u201COh, well, I\u2019ve also got some other shares.\u201D Then it took 15 days from the day the story broke until Michael Wood resigned from his ministerial portfolios. As it says here, Hipkins announced Wood\u2019s resignation from that portfolio. He resigned, and he did the right thing in that instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EOf course, we all remember Stuart Nash giving the old Police Commissioner a phone call every now and then, interfering and sending some Cabinet information to his friends, and the weeks that these stories dragged on. What did we hear from the Prime Minister of the time, Chris Hipkins? Crickets. Again, week after week after week and nothing happening, because that was the approach under his Government: there was no actual accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWe come to the instance of Kiri Allan. We all remember Kiri Allan, don\u2019t we? We all remember Kiri Allan. She turned up to an event here at Parliament and, despite the fact that she had ministerial responsibilities, decided to criticise RNZ over its approach, interfering with independent journalists at an event here in Parliament, around the employment of her then partner and her employment at the broadcaster. That took weeks for that instance to be sorted under that Government. But, in that instance, all she did was apologise, and Hipkins let everything go\u2014let everything go. Standards now, no standards then\u2014that\u2019s what we saw. There\u2019s a word which starts with \u201Chypo-\u201D, which I can\u2019t use in the House, which we can all talk about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EOf course, we\u2019ve got our friend Shanan Halbert, don\u2019t we? Shall we talk about our friend Shanan Halbert? He received an e-mail about bullying and harassment. What happened there? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Hipkins made some inquiries. No action; no investigation even took place\u2014no personal responsibility. On this side of the House, we take personal responsibility for our actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWe remember what happened with the Hon Ginny Andersen and the teenage girl who volunteered for her complaining to Labour about several instances of bullying over several years. No action taken by Mr Hipkins. In fact, in this instance, we saw that Hipkins promoted Andersen eight places and gave her more portfolios. That was what happened under Hipkins. After the election, she was promoted eight places, given more portfolios, and he said he has full confidence in her and expects her to do an excellent job. On this side of the House, we take personal responsibility. On that side of the House, they drag these issues out. They don\u2019t take accountability; they don\u2019t take responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EFor what Andrew Bayly has done and for the actions which he publicly has put on the record as to what he has done, how he has stated very clearly that he did not meet his own expectations of behaviour, he has taken responsibility by resigning. I acknowledge the action that he has done in this instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022c27fdc3525674bd1802d7be9b3f67e15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c27fdc3525674bd1802d7be9b3f67e15\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. Sorry, this is the first opportunity I\u2019ve had to raise it; I didn\u2019t want to interrupt the member in his flow. I\u2019ve overheard what I understand is an unparliamentary comment being made by the co-leader of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. I\u2019m not sure if you heard it. I think the Minister speaking actually referred to this term being unparliamentary. I\u2019m just wondering if you might like to reflect and maybe the member might like to withdraw and apologise if he recalls the comment he\u2019s made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225b1b8156846d4d4a9610719eb2754dfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b1b8156846d4d4a9610719eb2754dfb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do make every effort to concentrate on the person speaking and did not hear other comments that were made, but if there were comments made that were inappropriate, then the member themselves should take some action with regards to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee8a597d411e4281893a56645a01bd33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee8a597d411e4281893a56645a01bd33\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Throughout this debate on the resignation of Andrew Bayly, I think I have two key points that I want to communicate. The first one is that I think what people are expecting us to do is to do better. I think it\u2019s a disservice, actually, to workers\u2014whether it\u2019s in the Beehive or out in the streets\u2014to see actually political point-scoring on a debate that actually is related to an incident that involved a complainant and a worker who was not treated in a way that I think any of us would expect or aspire to. It is disappointing to see the Government\u2019s side being unable to take it on the chin, to acknowledge that what the former Minister did was wrong, and then to simply actually send a message of aspiration and standards to what we should all rise up to, which is actually just treating workers with the respect and dignity that they deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAt the end of the day, the chairs may change\u2014we may have a new Minister in charge of Andrew Bayly\u2019s portfolios\u2014but the premise actually remains the same, and that is that working people, whether inside or outside the Beehive, are simply collateral damage to this Government\u2019s agenda. The incident with Andrew Bayly speaks to a broader culture of how the Government speaks in relationship to working people, whether it\u2019s calling parents\u2014today\u2014\u201Clazy\u201D for simply not having the means to provide decent lunches for their kids; calling people on the benefit \u201Cbottom feeders\u201D; or undermining the right of workers to fight for better pay and include safer working conditions. Those safer working conditions many workers aspire to could include, actually, better work and safety guidelines in the workplace to prevent harmful engagements between themselves and, for example, people in positions of authority and power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EUltimately, I think for us the issue isn\u2019t resolved here; it\u2019s resolved when we actually see a change of culture and approach to working people from Government, because I do not expect that the new person holding Andrew Bayly\u2019s portfolios will suddenly bring a shift of culture when it comes to how working people are treated and spoken about. I do want to pick up on some of the comments from the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins in relationship to questions that remain, in regards to the transparency and communications of this news. I do think the Government needs to step up and provide greater clarity and transparency when it comes to this series of events. I think some of the questions that have been raised are simple ones: a matter of time lines, a matter of when the resignation was offered, and a matter of simply being able to provide clear answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I was quite shocked and disappointed by is that, in the comments from the National Party Minister, we did not see a single mention of the complainant or the parties affected by these incidents. Instead, we saw a range of political attacks, but at the core of it, we have workers who, through no fault of their own, have been dragged out into the public on a very, very public incident that has led to a Minister\u2019s resignation. These are workers who didn\u2019t choose to show up to work to end up being in the news in relationship to a Government Minister resigning. I think the least the Government side could do is to pay tribute and acknowledge the complainants that have led to Andrew Bayly\u2019s resignation, to at the very least wish them well and to, at the very least, commit to some level of accountability. We haven\u2019t seen that. It is concerning when we have these serious incidents that lead to a Minister of the Crown resigning, when at the core we have political attacks that are put before the wellbeing of those very workers who are affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWith that, the Greens will continue to do the mahi so that all of us\u2014all of us\u2014take accountability for the wellbeing of workers in this place and outside these four walls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u00224c75a995d3e4407ca21cdb7237dc9673\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c75a995d3e4407ca21cdb7237dc9673\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of ACT as part of the urgent debate about the Andrew Bayly resignation. A couple of reflections and observations from me\u2014and I\u2019ll be quite brief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EOutside of the four walls of this House, the number one issue is the cost of living\u2014the number one issue. We\u2019ve got health issues, we\u2019ve got crime issues, we\u2019ve got infrastructure issues. This gentleman has apologised, and I think if he was to share his thoughts, he would probably say the incident in question he was embarrassed by, it was a dumb mistake, he has taken personal responsibility for it, and he has resigned. Novel, isn\u2019t it? Someone stands up when they do something wrong, says to the community at large, \u201CI didn\u2019t mean to do it; I apologise.\u201D We do it at home with our families; we do it with our friends. We\u2019ve had a gentleman in an esteemed position who has conceded a terrible mistake. He\u2019s borne the consequences of that and resigned the post as a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EOutside of the four walls of this building, people loathe the piety of politicians\u2014\u201CYou said it.\u201D, \u201CHe said it.\u201D, one side of the House pointing fingers at the other. It happens all the time, the left and the right. No one really resolved anything other than the chap\u2014he\u2019s quit. Go out and talk to the real people outside\u2014there\u2019s a novel idea. For 50 percent of the people I talk to, it\u2019s the cost of living. Everything\u2019s too dear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s talk about the salient issues, not this. This chap has quit; he\u2019s moved from his post. Someone else will replace him\u2014invariably, that will be the Hon Scott Simpson, and, hopefully, the work in and around deregulating the financial sector and the enormous task therein will be picked up by his skill set. Let\u2019s go back to common sense. There\u2019s a lot going on outside the political sphere of this building.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI tie off by saying it actually pays for the politicians in this building to listen to constituents. Their core issues are not this. He\u2019s apologised\u2014move on, and let\u2019s get back to business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002265c3e242f0b743a0b560cac22d36afa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265c3e242f0b743a0b560cac22d36afa4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just waiting for the Labour Party, which wanted the urgent debate, to take the call\u2014but, anyway. I don\u2019t have much more to add to what my good friend and colleague the Hon Simeon Brown said in his contribution. This is really a waste of Parliament\u2019s time. A Minister made a mistake, he owned up and took accountability for it, and he resigned. I mean, the matter is literally as simple as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOver on this side of the House, we believe in ministerial accountability. Whether or not he resigned or was going to be sacked is actually not that material to the point. The point is that there was a Minister who was doing a good job\u2014I think most people agree\u2014as the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs. He made a mistake, he acted inappropriately, he accepts that, and then very quickly he resigned. The matter literally is as simple as that. That is exactly what happened, and that has been well canvassed throughout the media and also in this debate. There is not much more to the situation than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe fact that the Labour Party has called for an urgent debate and then apparently doesn\u2019t seem to want to say very much about it, I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a684e8f7b6874f73b61a8e85f50d2a9d\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The inference from that member is that Labour missed a call. It was New Zealand First\u2019s call that he has taken. I want to put that on the record, so that he\u2019s not giving incorrect information to any members of the public that may be watching.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bb5c24cddf24345a8c02a6fe8976366\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And, at the time, you might have heard me say that was an inappropriate comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229df0a0104315403f9de828fdae89d1d7\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: He just did it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff235225cead4f95bf8fbc1934fb073c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he shouldn\u2019t have done that. I\u2019ve actually indulged the National Party by accepting the transfer from the New Zealand First Party, so it\u2019s not a particularly smart line. My apologies; I was actually trying to work out who else might be speaking in this debate, because it is somewhat disorganised and unclear. The member can continue without that line of offering to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dfdb575998145f2a249d95a4fa07dc1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise, Mr Speaker. The overall point I\u2019m trying to make\u2014the overall point I\u2019m trying to make\u2014is this: there is not much more to this issue than has already been said, both in the first half an hour of this urgent debate but also that has been well traversed in the media.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just point out that the Parliament has, over the last few years, or the last 18 months to two years in particular, been witness to a series of degrading incidents to the standards and the mana of the Parliament. Suffice it for me to point out the litany of appalling incidents that happened in the last year of the outgoing Labour Government\u2019s administration. Need I remind members about Meka Whaitiri, who went through a long process to do with an incident all the way back in 2018\u2014fought it all the way. The contrast to this particular incident is extremely clear, which is that something happened and the Minister owned up and accepted responsibility. There was no long investigation which produced an outcome and then eventual removal as a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to Meka Whaitiri, the incident was on 27 August 2018. The Prime Minister was advised two days later\u2014so very similar to what happened in relation to Mr Bayly\u2019s case\u2014Ms Whaitiri stood aside a day later, but there was a month-long investigation before Ms Whaitiri was removed as a Minister, and then, of course, a couple of years later she was actually reinstated. The contrast with this is pretty apparent\u2014I think members will be able to work it out\u2014which is that there was an incident, the Prime Minister and his office was advised about what happened, and two days or so later Mr Bayly stood down as a Minister. It is really as simple as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOf course, we need not traverse the long history of the Michael Wood matter, where on\u2014I forget the exact number of occasions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dee446a72e7a46fc902350a4c5caca28\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Seventeen!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb0fcc4f682245e8af47f3d87a36e37d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Seventeen\u2014thank you. I knew my friends would remind me\u2014I knew my friends would remind me. The Cabinet Office advised Michael Wood to divest his shares in Auckland Airport and Contact Energy on 17 separate occasions, and none of that happened. And, in the meantime, the Prime Minister of the time knew about that\u2014or, at least, their office knew about that\u2014and nothing was done. So, if you want to talk about accountability and talk about, as Mr Hipkins was voluminously exclaiming at length in his initial contribution to the debate\u2014if you want to talk about accountability and the jobs that Prime Minister absolutely have to do\u2014I would point him to the Michael Wood saga of 2022, 2023, and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI would also point him to the Kiri Allan disaster, which, of course, we don\u2019t need to go into the precise details of, but I think everyone watching is familiar with exactly what happened there. And, then, of course, there is the Stuart Nash affair. Now, Stuart Nash has become a friend to this side of the House in recent days because of his voluminous support for the Government\u2019s action when it comes to citizen\u2019s arrest. Whether or not he\u2019s still a member of the Labour Party is unclear or not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248fb3a5223eb4c9b8bbbd403512fe9bf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a matter for this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bc20ca5cdc4403691723f897b8e6227\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019re having a debate about ministerial resignations and, in particular, the resignation of the Hon Andrew Bayly, and I\u2019m just simply pointing out that, if we\u2019re going to have a debate about it, we need to view things in the round. Is this the downfall of the Government? No, of course it isn\u2019t. Did Mr Bayly act badly? Yes. Did he take accountability and resign? Yes, he did. And that is really the end of the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8ae135d010f43b69bfaeca88659b971\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8ae135d010f43b69bfaeca88659b971\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. I join this debate listening to the two sides deflect, and I guess one of the things that we need to be really mindful in this is that there is a staff member involved. There\u2019s a staff member, the staff member\u2019s wh\u0101nau, and probably a whole lot of other peers involved who are sitting there watching this really distasteful discussion. I think if we were to talk about where is the end point and the starting point, we have a Government that has promised to be more transparent and be better than the last. I\u2019m not sure if that is really where we\u2019ve landed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThe reason that I think we\u2019re having this debate is because it is simply about the abuse of power, and it is about the abuse of power that we have not only within this House\u2014but Ministers particularly\u2014but the abuse of power that we see asserted financially from this Government, and the abuse of power across to communities. When we have the risk of abuse within this place\u2014and, again, I\u2019ve struggled with this \u201Canimated discussion\u201D and \u201Chand on shoulder\u201D, because it does sound like assault. I don\u2019t want to put words in those who have survived or those victims\u2019 mouths, but there has been a really colourful display of words being used to deflect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWhat we have been seeing since the Minister\u2019s resignation is, sadly, what we continuously call out, which is the politics of distraction. The politics of distraction is only used when things have to be covered up, and I think that\u2019s what we should be really concerned about, as a nation. I agree that those we speak to out in our communities are really concerned with the cost of living crisis, but also the disconnect from a Government that doesn\u2019t seem to feel the pain that they are experiencing or to care about them. This debate is actually about: did our Prime Minister care enough about his nation to be able to say this is what went on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThe time lines, we agree, are really, really disturbing. On 18 February, we have a Minister who touched a staff member\u2019s shoulder\u2014and, like, I do that often to my co-leader and our staff and I don\u2019t see the reaction, so I think we need to, first of all, stop minimising what happened to one of our own in this building. To sit there and justify this by saying \u201CSo and so did it in 2000\u201D, \u201CSuch and such did it but he\u2019s now my friend\u201D is actually poor form. It\u2019s poor form for those who have to survive and work amongst us in this environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThen we saw, 21 February, there was a resignation behind closed doors. Then, 24 February, we hear about it. That\u2019s disturbing. Six days, a victim has had to survive all this knowing what\u2019s going around while everybody got their architects and their advisers and their comms team all lined up. That\u2019s poor form. Our staff and our community and those we serve\u2014our voters\u2014deserve better. That\u2019s what this debate is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe saw the Prime Minister\u2019s own media shocked that he could not say, \u201CWould you have sacked him if he didn\u2019t sack himself?\u201D That is not the accountability that our nation deserves. They are experiencing unprecedented pain at the moment. They are experiencing unprecedented, huge, huge, horrific loss of jobs, of cuts in services, health, ferries, you name it. This Government has made promises, and in order to hold those promises you must\u00A0maintain the confidence of your communities. The minute one of their own\u2014the real workers; the people that hold us up in this place\u2014are abused, then we should be sitting here, not saying, \u201CThey apologised on the spot therefore forget it and move on.\u201D We should be saying, \u201CHow else are we making sure that the Government and their Ministers,\u201D\u2014I\u2019ve no doubt, having never been one, but one in waiting, that it is extremely difficult, but that does not give us the excuse to abuse and assert our power incorrectly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThere has been a lot of that\u2014a lot of that pain. We\u2019ve seen, you know, two strikes, three strikes, you\u2019re out. We continuously have heard justice talk about their concern here on each side of the House about the victims. We haven\u2019t seen that aroha from the Government. There has not been the humility to just take it on the nose and accept what it is that you\u2019ve done. There needs to be more transparency, and I\u2019m really glad we have this debate. Kia\u00A0ora\u00A0r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022877e028d3de54d9a8624936dbad68c8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022877e028d3de54d9a8624936dbad68c8a\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have been highly disappointed by the speeches that have come from the Government members and the way that they have attempted to minimise the behaviour of the former Minister. We have heard from them that in some ways they\u2019re almost implying we should be grateful that there was a resignation put forward, that that former Minister has acknowledged he did wrong, but what we haven\u2019t heard from them is any level of empathy for the staff member who was put through a distressing situation, the detail of which the vast majority of us in this House have no access to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ENow, we have heard from that side of the House that the resignation has been given; he is no longer a Minister. I think Minister Bishop said, \u201CThat\u2019s the end of the matter.\u201D Well, actually, it\u2019s not the end of the matter because in this country we expect transparency. We expect accountability. We know that that former Minister had an episode where he swore at a worker, where he told him to \u201Ceff off\u201D, where he criticised him for being at work and berated him. He was allowed to hold on to his job as a Minister, and now we are told, in another way of minimising the situation, that he had an animated conversation with his staff member and he put his hand on his shoulder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWell, I tell you what, an animated conversation and just simply putting your hand on someone\u2019s shoulder is not going to lead to a resignation from a Minister. There is much more to it. I\u2019m going to say on this side of the House that we\u2019re concerned about the level of abuse that may have been experienced by that public servant by that particular Minister at the time and the fact that the Government is covering it up and not willing to share any of the information. In fact, telling us that the matter has ended and it has been dealt with. Well, it hasn\u2019t been dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESadly, what we\u2019re seeing here is another demonstration of the lack of leadership by the Prime Minister. We see it often with his engagement and his relationships and inability to kind of keep tabs on his coalition partners, but now we\u2019re seeing it with his own team. He gave that former Minister another chance. He would not have been given another chance under the circumstances that we saw from Minister Bayly at that time\u2014swearing at a worker, acknowledging that he did that, berating him for still being at work. There is no way a Labour Minister would be allowed to continue in their role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThen, what we hear from that side is a constant desire to reflect back on other examples where Ministers were had up for a level of misconduct. OK, I get that. However, at some point in time that Government has to take responsibility, that Prime Minister needs to take responsibility. The Prime Minister needs to set some standards for his team. The Prime Minister needs to lay out clearly what his expectations are of his Cabinet. What we don\u2019t need is the Prime Minister and his team coming here and expressing remorse for their colleague\u2014remorse for their colleague\u2014when their colleague would have inevitably been sacked anyway, whether or not the Prime Minister is willing to go so far as to say that, reflecting back on that three-minute interview with Mike Hosking. He would have had to have been sacked anyway. A resignation, in many ways, was the only opportunity that he had to save himself a little bit of face. He shouldn\u2019t have actually been given that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIf the Prime Minister was the leader that New Zealanders expect of their Prime Minister, he would have acted swiftly and he would have dismissed that Minister. He would have made it clear that, under his watch, that type of behaviour and that treatment of staff is not appropriate, that it is misconduct, and that will never happen under his watch, but he didn\u2019t do that. The thing that I think New Zealanders are most concerned about is the lack of leadership; it is the lack of transparency, it is the high level of concern for what actually went on in that office and the level of abuse that potentially that staff member had to endure. That side of the House should hang their heads in shame and they should not be coming here apologetic for their colleague.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002223fccb24bb0d4841a893521f6249e2cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223fccb24bb0d4841a893521f6249e2cf\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I want to acknowledge a number of things in my contribution this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EFirstly, I want to acknowledge the apology that Andrew Bayly gave after the matter was brought to his attention and to the public\u2019s attention. He said\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CAs many of you know, I have been impatient to drive change in my ministerial portfolios. Last week, I had an animated discussion with a staff member \u2026 [and] I took the discussion too far, and I placed a hand on their upper arm, which was inappropriate. I have apologised to the staff member and regret placing them in an uncomfortable position. There are times when you have to hold yourself to account. [and] Today is one of those days.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EThat was from Andrew Bayly taking responsibility and accountability for what took place, and the Prime Minister then said, \u201CMr Bayly fell short of my expectations and the expectations he sets for himself, and, as such, offered his resignation as a Minister, which I have accepted.\u201D Members on the other side can\u2019t seem to read, see, or hear the apology given in that statement and at that time. I understand and I know, looking through this litany of previous incidences which we can speak to under their administration, but we need to be crystal clear: our colleague, our friend, a Minister, has taken responsibility for their actions and resigned. This debate is, effectively, a farce, because actually the Minister has taken accountability for what\u2019s happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EFor most general New Zealanders, they are not worried about the inner politics of this place. They\u2019re worried about putting food on the table; having their kids in quality clothes to wear to school; ensuring that the roads they travel on each day are up to standard; that if they need it, there is quality and timely healthcare available to them; to ensure that the education system is delivering for their kids so that our next generation of leaders in this country are coming into the real world prepared and ready to give back. But members on the other side want to debate matters that happened two weeks ago, because to them, that\u2019s the only issue at play here. Everything else is not a priority to them. The only priority, to the other side, is around Andrew Bayly\u2019s resignation\u2014which he gave, and it was accepted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EIf we\u2019re to look back, and it seems like short memories have come across the other side. Let\u2019s look back: Meka Whaitiri, how many chances was she given? How long did that investigation take while she was under investigation for doing even worse to a member at that time? Michael Wood: how many opportunities was he given from the Cabinet Office to get rid of his shares? Seventeen times\u201417 times\u2014Michael Wood was told \u201CRemove those shares, you are a Cabinet Minister\u201D, and he didn\u2019t. He was removed, eventually, and thank goodness. Stuart Nash\u2014oh, I\u2019m sitting next to my friend Katie Nimon, from Napier, and it\u2019s refreshing to have a change in that part of town, because Stuart Nash disclosing Cabinet information to friends\u2014don\u2019t you forget that. Then he had his disagreements, and Nash was allowed to resign rather than being sacked by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EThen we move on: Kiri Allan\u2014in a diabolical situation there. Gaurav Sharma: who remembers Dr Gaurav\u2014the Sharma drama? And what did that do? It gave us the gift of Tama Potaka to this House as a strong representative for Hamilton West. And then the list goes on\u2014the incidents of Ginny Andersen and the volunteer during that campaign as well in 2023. I would say to members opposite: do not throw stones if you are in glass houses. This member and former Minister has taken accountability for his actions, which the Prime Minister has accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022079caff940c3422dacac562c9812a713\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: Not one mention of the victim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ea8da91b0ea467ea51968f60ee857b7\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD\u003C/span\u003E: There is mention of the victim, and the victim is an important part of this process; we\u2019ve acknowledged that throughout. What I\u2019m saying today is, without a doubt, Andrew Bayly gave his resignation, it was accepted, there are bigger things in this country for us to focus on as a Government, and we\u2019re going to deliver on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002261a40cf47dda4ed5ba276c0edfafce92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261a40cf47dda4ed5ba276c0edfafce92\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. We come to some trouble here as a Parliament when the Government has been asked a series of reasonable questions, which are in the public interest, about how a worker was treated, and constitutional questions of responsibility in a time line which has not been disclosed. Instead of the Government Ministers who have fronted this debate acknowledging those questions and endeavouring to answer them, they have in fact attacked the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re at a crossroads here where we as a Parliament can accept that and move on, and that is the standard that Ministers will be held to in the future, or we can choose to pursue these questions. I hope that we do. I hope all members of this House take it incredibly seriously that it is not clear whether the Prime Minister himself knew about the situation of how the worker was treated, and it is not clear whether Cabinet knew, it is not clear whether that information has been compiled, and it certainly has not been made public. The ACT Party have argued in this debate that this is a waste of time, and we had National member, Tom Rutherford, who has resumed his seat say that this debate was a farce, when in fact we should be focusing on the cost of living. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWell, the irony is that Minister Bayly\u2019s resignation\u2014for the few New Zealanders who did know his name he will always be remembered as a Minister with issues of personal conduct. Yet he was the only Minister around the table who was charged with the most important issue on voters\u2019 minds right now, which is the cost of living, which is the fact that New Zealanders are being charged too much at the supermarket, and too much in banking services. He was the person charged with this incredible responsibility, and yet we now have a supermarket plan which is weak. It has no hope of reducing prices for Kiwis, and no Minister to stand behind it. It is completely indicative of the crisis that the National Party faces now. There\u2019s no shortage of tough talk on corporate interests, but nobody around the table who will actually back it up with regulatory reform, and no plan to see prices coming down for ordinary Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat are we meant to take away from the way this Government operates? We\u2019re actually seeing big corporates responding to those signals. Instead of the supermarkets being out there in the newspapers saying how they have a plan to address the cost of living for ordinary consumers at the checkout, they are in fact telling the National Business Review that they are redoubling their efforts to lobby Government. It is more in the interests of corporates to get cozy with Government Ministers than it actually is to bring down prices for ordinary New Zealanders across many sectors. That\u2019s because this Government is going from announcement to announcement, to chaos to chaos, and there is no one who is willing to take on the leadership that it will require to actually make serious change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhen we think about what the commerce Minister, who was so passionate about those portfolios, will be remembered for, it is for being the Minister who obfuscated about calling a worker a loser and then was caught out in question time. It is for being a Minister who asked a worker repeatedly to join him and his staff who were having drinks, and it is a Minister who didn\u2019t seem to get a worker\u2019s hesitance to say no to him when he was on the job late on a Friday night. That is the legacy of this Government in the competition space. That is the record for consumers, and it is a shame in the record of that Government who promised at the election that they would address these consumer issues and the lack of competition in these sectors, and actually bring prices down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis will all require more leadership than what we are seeing now. The Government is so out of touch with how important these cost of living issues are for ordinary Kiwis that it is not putting the people on the job who should be on the job. The guy who was around the table who had responsibility for this and was out there telling the supermarkets that they were on notice has now resigned and his portfolios have been consigned to the most junior Minister in Cabinet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe Government requires leadership. Governing requires leadership. The Prime Minister has been asked to explain the nature of the complaint. No Government Minister would come down here and tell us what the plan is to ensure that this worker\u2019s story is taken into account when addressing the conduct issues of a Minister on that side of the House. This Parliament is no clearer about how things will improve, and nobody in New Zealand is clear about this Government\u2019s plan to improve things for ordinary Kiwis who are paying too much at the checkout. Both of these things require leadership, and on both counts this Government is failing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe deserve as New Zealanders to understand what the standard is for Ministers. People in Government need to hold themselves to a higher standard and to make it clear what has happened, and to own up to it, and take responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u0022f185e22972c74449b83a0f4f80887587\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f185e22972c74449b83a0f4f80887587\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, honestly, this is an exercise in clutching at straws by the Opposition, in my view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EI just want to recap quickly: there was an incident, which was subsequently escalated and investigated, which is the right and good practice and what we would expect when something like this happens. A discussion took place between the Prime Minister and Andrew Bayly, and the Minister resigned his position and portfolios. He stated that he did that after reflection that his action didn\u2019t meet his own high standards. As Andrew Bayly apologised, he held himself accountable and he resigned as a result. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s any value in dragging this out when the Minister owned his actions and took action and resigned. What else could there possibly have been to be done? That was what the end result was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EI want to personally thank Andrew Bayly for his great work in consumer finance, insurance, and ACC\u2014and acknowledged by the Opposition, who sound like they are missing Andrew Bayly already\u2014because I genuinely believe he was doing a great job in areas that require specific expertise and focus. He has taken this on the chin. That work now, of course, will be carried on by the Hon Scott Simpson, who has been a fine whip for our great caucus and I want to thank for him for his service and wish him well. He has led us through the last year and been a great whip, a great mentor to those of us who needed it\u2014and kept us all in line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EThe vain hunt by the Opposition for a conspiracy in this whole case is ridiculous. There is no conspiracy\u2014it\u2019s been dealt with and we have now put it to bed. We have to get back to what this country expects us to be talking about, which is how we\u2019re going to fix the mess that we were left in 2023, and how we are going to get the economy back on track and get moving again. We could stand here for ages, we could talk for\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014two hours on the vagaries of what happened in the previous Government and those who should have resigned and didn\u2019t, or those who should have been sacked and weren\u2019t\u2014we could go on and on. There\u2019s no point in going back through that because this actually has been sorted. It\u2019s been done: Andrew Bayly resigned. There\u2019s no further outcome to be met. I would argue, in closing, that it\u2019s time we just got back on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003ECould I also now just welcome Stuart Smith to the role of whip\u2014he\u2019s the chief whip. He will come in and continue to deliver for this Government, as the result of us will, as we get on with the job at hand. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s much more to be said on this, and I think that\u2019s where we should end it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ace05394f4d74a1c8537f80b6511d601\u0022\u003ELand Transport Management (Time of Use Charging) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd963fd9243e47efa975fa78d7f0624b\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022c777bd5d7e1f49a9832b9a0cdeb2c5fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c777bd5d7e1f49a9832b9a0cdeb2c5fa\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Land Transport Management (Time of Use Charging) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f511016e52174429b4663db666a09b46\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the parliamentary website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202aa869a8ef84745a8601495340757a7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Land Transport Management (Time of Use Charging) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Transport and Infrastructure Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ECongestion is a tax on time and productivity. It means we are away from home for longer, sitting in gridlock. It means fewer jobs being done, fewer goods being moved, and delays to services being delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis is actually quite a banner day in and amongst a, dare I say, banner couple of weeks for productivity and urban growth. Successive Governments of both parties and a select committee inquiry in 2021 has broadly come to the same conclusion, which is that time of use charging is something that we need to do as a country to reduce congestion. I\u2019m really proud to be part of a Government that is getting on with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the work of my predecessor in the transport portfolio, the Hon Simeon Brown, who started this work, but I also want to acknowledge the work of the Hon Michael Wood and others from the last Labour Government that started this work, as well. This bill is different to that which was canvassed in the last Parliament. It picks up some of the ideas, and takes it forward into 2024 and 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis bill is a vital step towards improving the performance of our transport networks through a nationally consistent yet locally adaptable framework. It represents a strategic response to some of the most pressing challenges in the transport network, including congestion and demand for better transport solutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe simple proposition is this: by charging motorists to travel on certain roads at peak times, we will encourage people to change the time or the way they travel or the route they take, maximising the efficient use of our roading assets and keeping the traffic flowing freely. Faster, more reliable travel times will help increase economic growth and productivity, lower costs for businesses and their customers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow, Auckland Transport and the Mayor of Auckland have released a report this afternoon, which shows that congestion in Auckland will cost the economy up to $2.6\u00A0billion per year by 2026. That is an extraordinary sum of money. That is $2.6 billion that could otherwise be deployed in economic activity that actually grows the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EPrevious modelling has shown that successful time of use charging could reduce congestion by up to 8 to 12 percent at peak times, improving travel time significantly. Now, 8 to 12 percent\u2014let\u2019s call it 10, for the sake of argument\u201410 percent congestion reduction at peak times might not sound like a lot, but, actually, the snowball effect, the compound effect, of that at peak times actually has the effect of reducing travel time significantly. Just by spacing out when and how people travel on our roads, it can make a material difference to travel times and the ease of getting around. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt is simply an economics problem. There\u2019s a fixed amount of road space and everyone converges on it at the same time. The effect of that is congestion, because there\u2019s a fixed amount of space and there\u2019s a certain number of vehicles travelling. The economists would tell you that the simple way to solve that is a use price. That is exactly what other countries have done and other jurisdictions have. I think of New York, which, up until President Trump\u2019s executive order stopping it, had experienced quite a reduction in congestion as a result of a 20-year journey to introduced congestion charging in New York. It\u2019s about the same amount of time we\u2019ve been talking about it here. I was talking to some people the other day, and I think I\u2019m right in saying that the first economic study into time of use pricing was by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research (NZIER), and, from memory, it was back in 1994.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205f6c1b2699c4ee99ddabbaaf1902186\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, before I was born!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217c4cbc23d7a447ca977ebb96a81029c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Before you were born? Goodness gracious me! Well, Tom Rutherford wasn\u2019t alive, but back then the boffins at NZIER were doing studies into congestion pricing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFrom memory\u2014I don\u2019t want to mislead the House\u2014there\u2019s been about 20 studies since then by NZIER and all of the transport modelling agencies and the economists out there. There are a few things that economists broadly agree on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b61144d43904ac6a9c030c9fb5fa2a1\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Capital gains.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1d82ff876c845c89b0689eb63f4421e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: No, well, that\u2019s definitely not one of them. The only people who agree with capital gains are the lunatics in the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a few things economists agree on\u2014well, it\u2019s a shame Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick can\u2019t hear this\u2014broadly three things: one, free trade\u2019s good and free trade raises incomes, free trade lowers the cost of production and it lifts all boats; free trade\u2019s good. They agree on that. They agree that rent control is stupid and it lowers the quality of housing and disincentivises people from offering rental goods into the market place and so you end up with stretched demand for rental housing because price controls like that don\u2019t work. They broadly agree on that. By the way, that is Green Party policy. They\u2019re still banging on about how we need rent control. It\u2019s a dumb policy and they know it. The third thing they agree on is that time of use pricing or congestion pricing is good. I\u2019m pleased to be on the side of economics on this side of the House. Every now and then, the Green Party get there, but then sometimes they misread the text. But, anyway, we\u2019ll wait and see where they vote on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAs I say, overseas time of use pricing schemes have been implemented. We have taken some of the lessons in the policy design we have adapted for this bill. The first is that schemes need to be scalable. There\u2019s an option to start small, build support, and expand where needed. The purpose of the charge needs to be clear and the performance against this purpose needs to be measured and monitored. That is what we will be doing through this proposal. The other lesson is that revenue needs to be reinvested into the area paying the charge and used to improve mobility and transport in the area. That is part of it as well. People want to know that if they\u2019re paying for something, the money is going into a system that will get recycled into providing better transport choices and options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ECentral and local government need to collaborate for the schemes to be effective. One simple reason for that in New Zealand is that central government owns the State highway network, and local roads are owned by the city councils or the relevant territorial authorities. Of course, people drive from one to the other, and they don\u2019t go from a State highway to a local road and go\u2014well, nerds like me do this, but most people don\u2019t\u2014 \u201COh, I was on State Highway 1 and now I\u2019m on the local road owned by the Horowhenua District Council.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022336bfab6b07e4d6982493cbb771ef4ff\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, maybe it\u2019s just me and you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c0f4861d5f442608c77e4725cabe15e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Katie Nimon does that. She goes off that expressway, which we\u2019re expanding, by the way\u2014that great Hawke\u2019s Bay Expressway\u2014on to the State Highway\u2014what is it up there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f41fa69fe63470cb34dbdd6cb235921\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eff2d5bc30c542c4b3c8d81c30a52dea\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: 2\u2014yes, yes. And, of course, we\u2019ve got the Waikare Gorge, also north of\u2014connecting my good friends\u2019 seats. But, anyway, most people don\u2019t do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) and local councils have to work together, so there are legislative amendments to the Land Transport Management Act and the Land Transport Act 1998. This is enabling legislation. This doesn\u2019t put in place congestion-charging schemes; it\u2019s an enabling legislation. It takes a partnership approach. As I say, it will allow local authorities to collaborate with the NZTA in forming scheme boards tasked with proposing and developing time of use charging schemes. Neighbouring councils within the region are invited to participate, promoting regional collaboration\u2014we\u2019re all in\u00A0favour of\u00A0that. It will be led by local councils but in partnership with NZTA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis is not about generating revenue from drivers. All net revenue from the schemes will be reinvested directly into transport projects in the region where the revenue is collected. This creates a self-sustaining cycle of continuous improvement, enhancing mobility and infrastructure. The funds will be additional, supplementing rather than replacing existing national local transport funding. And, of course, these schemes can even defer the need for network investment. By reducing peak demand and improving traffic flow, successful schemes optimise the use of existing infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIf you want a modern-day example of something that I\u2019m talking about, I think of the Northern Busway in Auckland, which was built in 2007, 2008. It was a bit controversial when it was built. Forty percent of people crossing the Auckland Harbour Bridge take a bus. That has actually elongated the life of the bridge, because many more people are just taking those, fast, direct buses to and from the Shore and further beyond. It\u2019s a great example. By the way, it was $110 million in 2008, from memory, at a benefit-cost ratio of, they reckon, 1:1. It is almost certainly the single most successful transport project in New Zealand history, because of the deferred investment that it has allowed the Harbour Bridge. We do need to get on with the Harbour Bridge but we would have had to get on with it a lot sooner than if it hadn\u2019t been for the Northern Busway. And, of course, we\u2019ve got the Northwest Busway coming, airport to Botany, and, of course, other great investments like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis is going to be fair and transparent to protect the social licence. It is going to be a bit controversial. My full expectation is that, as we develop these schemes, there will be a bit of public debate about it, but the experience from overseas is that it is edgy when you first introduce it, but then, as people experience it and they see the scheme working, and they see that it\u2019s easier to get to work in the morning and home in the evening to spend time with the kids, and tradies find it easier to get around and do three jobs in a day rather than two, people come to accept it. That\u2019s been the experience from overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAs I say, this bill is going off to select committee. I\u2019m looking forward to the engagement from the Opposition in relation to it. We do want to get it right. We\u2019re open to feedback and changes as the debate goes forward. But we do want to get on with it. It is a really important move for New Zealand\u2019s future. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d34bfd1e452a44bfb12e80f28a8ebdcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d34bfd1e452a44bfb12e80f28a8ebdcf\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00222ab0f6838f054345a2e8f1cf661ebcb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ab0f6838f054345a2e8f1cf661ebcb3\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. Thank you. It\u2019s a pleasure to arise on behalf of the Labour Party as the transport spokesperson to speak on this time of use charging amendment bill. The Minister is quite right in that this is a bill\u2014or an issue, actually\u2014that is not new; it\u2019s been around for some time. This bill actually was introduced a number of months ago, as I understand it, and it\u2019s unfortunate that the former Minister of Transport didn\u2019t take the steps that the current Minister is taking to get this under way. I will put the Minister out of his misery and indicate that we will be supporting this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223146d25a22864121b267f540c292f9f4\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, very good!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a196cf7acc44ec5a10fbaf408002536\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014through to select committee, and I see our colleague over there, Mr Foster, who chairs the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, is delighted that that support is coming from this way as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is something that we think will make a difference for communities around the country that face issues around traffic congestion. The Minister talked about the fact that when we turn our mind to other parts of the globe, often there is a little bit of reluctance around the implementation of some schemes. Certainly, there\u2019s a lot of work that needs to happen before implementation takes place, but once these schemes are in place, generally they are supported as individuals go about their day, acknowledging that things do make a difference. That sense of acceptance is something that is seen all around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge, Mr Speaker, your own role in the previous Parliament when you chaired the Transport and Infrastructure Committee inquiry, and the members here in the House that were part of that inquiry team back in 2021. What it identified was the opportunity for a bipartisan approach to this issue. I\u2019m proud of the fact, actually, that in Government, Labour did do most if not all of the groundwork around this policy, and in doing so we also sought the bipartisan sort of support from across the aisle to bring this to fruition. It\u2019s unfortunate that that didn\u2019t happen at the time, but now that the shoe is on the other foot, the Government seem very happy to want to progress this moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI do think it is really important that this is a scheme that is developed in consultation and via direct leadership with local communities and local council. One of the concerns that I do have in the bill as currently drafted is the stark ability of the Minister of Transport to just basically foist on to communities a charging scheme if, three years after commencement of this particular bill\u2014or Act, as it would be at that point\u2014he or she or they believe that a charging scheme is possible or needed. I do think that there is huge benefit in ensuring that those decisions\u2014when it comes to time of use charging schemes, and operation and implementation\u2014is dealt with by local communities as a particular driver of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other reason why it\u2019s important this is not seen as a revenue gathering exercise is, currently, the Government have a $6 billion hole in their transport financial plan. We certainly hope that in avenues like this they\u2019re not seeking to simply generate the revenue to address their inadequacies when it comes to being able to undertake basic mathematics and make things add up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other issue that I want to just touch on briefly is the concern around what the balance of the money that would be basically brought in from the schemes would be used for. Currently, the bill as drafted indicates that it could be used for any measure of land transport activities. I think it\u2019s really important that that equity space is given absolute focus and consideration: that where there would be a time of use charging component applied to any stretch of road in this country there are opportunities for alternatives\u2014they must be free alternatives\u2014but also that there is a focus on ensuring there is revenue set aside and redirected to ensure that those equity considerations are given a primary focus; that it\u2019s not actually just about the necessary option of perhaps the Government of the day wanting to spend money on more roads but that it is about active transport opportunities, it is about public transport opportunities, it is about other modes and methods that would ensure that equity is not only something that is considered but something that can actually be played out in a complementary way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAs I say, we will support this bill at this stage. I look forward to working with other colleagues on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee as this is progressed. It is a good committee that is very collegial and I\u2019m sure we will hear lots of submissions and submitters, and I do hope that the Government is open to changing aspects of the bill to ensure that it\u2019s workable, it\u2019s fair, and at the end of the day it meets the needs that are required in the circumstance. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022714ecabfdaa749af9c823af193d73a35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022714ecabfdaa749af9c823af193d73a35\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. The Green Party has long stood for policies that will deliver more livable cities with affordable housing and transport options that help protect the climate and keep air clean and healthy, and all of that is better for livability. That\u2019s why, when I came to Aotearoa in 2006 studying a Master of urban planning, I was quickly attracted to the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand, the only party at the time really talking about the issues that matter, like climate change and reducing inequality, and the practical solutions for achieving those outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIn 2006, there was a report on congestion pricing in Auckland and I remember it being on the front page of the New Zealand Herald. I remember commenting, as we did back in the day, on comments on the website, before they got too toxic to be constructive, and making the case for why congestion pricing was a good idea. Of course, the framing of the article was all negative at the time. And, of course, that was nearly 20 years ago and we\u2019re only now seeing a bill introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Green Party, at the time that I joined, I think was the only political party that actually proactively had investigated congestion pricing schemes where they would be appropriate in cities in New Zealand, so I think, like with the capital gains tax, we were at the vanguard of sensible economic policies. For the longest time, when people asked me about this, what I would also say is that really only a handful of cities in the world have brought in congestion pricing, even now. For the longest time, it was Stockholm, Gothenburg, the City of London, Singapore, and Milan, and now very, very recently, New York City finally got it over the line. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a significant difference between all of those cities and Auckland. One is that they have much higher density of employment and people living in the city. Of course, that\u2019s changed a lot in Auckland over the last 30 years thanks to more permissive zoning, but they have higher density, much greater use of public transport, because it\u2019s more frequent and it\u2019s more affordable, and they also have a much smaller supply of car parking and much higher prices to use car parking. It does make sense to do all of those things first; that is, allow higher density, invest in public transport, invest in people-oriented streets, walking and cycling, and include sensible approaches to parking management, including pricing the use of parking, before you go to congestion pricing. That said, the Green Party is supportive of this bill as drafted to select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThere are many other cities in the world that have used different types of pricing, and we heard at the select committee last term when we had the inquiry into congestion pricing that experts from around the world were recommending to us that our legislation should be flexible enough to allow low-emission zones as well. When we talk about low-emission zones, that\u2019s important from a carbon emissions point of view, but it\u2019s also air quality, because it turns out that the diesel particulates from traffic are far more harmful to human health than people have realised, and it\u2019s been pretty much unregulated in New Zealand and is definitely having an impact on childhood asthma and on lives. Probably more lives are lost due to poor air quality due to cars and trucks in Aotearoa New Zealand than even in crashes on the road. Unfortunately, I don\u2019t believe this legislation allows for low-emission zones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EOur other concern with this legislation is that it doesn\u2019t, I think, sufficiently empower the municipal transport authority\u2014that is, Auckland Transport and the city of Auckland\u2014to manage how all of this is running. It\u2019s very centralised\u2014and really, these urban transport solutions need to be solved; they need to be managed at the level of the city. That\u2019s the level at which people are voting for them. I think that the last Minister of Transport spent a whole year editing this legislation that was probably ready to go under the last Labour Government, making it far more centralised, giving far more control to central government. I think that\u2019s going to be problematic. I think it\u2019ll be less likely that the local councils will take it up unless we have some practical changes there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EYes, it\u2019s true that the State highway is owned by the New Zealand Transport Agency and central government, but, ultimately, the congestion is caused by cars and trucks making local trips on the State highway, and the alternatives to those local trips need to be provided before we bring in the congestion pricing\u2014that\u2019s buses, trains, walking, and cycling. All of that has to be provided by the council, and that\u2019s why I think that\u2019s the appropriate level for investment to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u0022134ddb34eb2f4cc5a8a69d0d65fdec4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022134ddb34eb2f4cc5a8a69d0d65fdec4c\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m glad to rise and speak on behalf of ACT on this Land Transport Management (Time of Use Charging) Amendment Bill. As a feeling of camaraderie and support breaks out across the House, ACT too will be supporting this bill and it\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0e437f346c846138a73e6609a0cb64c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, very good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232ca622b03b54a60852cbfacbd18bc33\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, isn\u2019t that great news? It\u2019s an expansion on what\u2019s in the coalition agreement, what was already agreed to by coalition parties, so we\u2019re seeing this go further. I must also say congratulations has to be given to the former chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, who undertook work on this in 2021, and to the Opposition whose work while in Government has contributed to this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EI stand as a member of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee and also a resident of Tauranga, and I think the Tauranga experience is quite illustrative in this example. Tauranga has got two toll roads, soon to be three. Now, paying for road use is something that the people of Tauranga have become well accustomed to. In fact, it\u2019s frequently a subject of conversation, of how much the rest of the country could benefit from having the pricing mechanism providing for a signal to the market on where roads are needing to be built. For example, people of Tauranga were extremely pleased to have a chance to have the Tauranga Eastern Link brought on sooner, through paying for a toll, and also Takitimu Drive tolled originally. That was led by local government, much like this bill is thinking of doing; having local government input saying, \u201CThis is where we think we could do with congestion charging; we want to see something happen.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what happened on what was formerly called Route K\u2014now Takitimu Link\u2014and the future road, Takitimu Northern Link, which will head out towards Te Puna and link up the north-western Bay of Plenty with the commerce capital and export port capital of New Zealand, Tauranga, which, I have to say, is one of the best places on earth, except for one small thing: we do have a bit of congestion in Tauranga, and that congestion does happen along State highways. It happens along Hewletts Road, which is a part of State Highway 2; it happens on State Highway 29 coming into Tauranga. These sort of places could benefit from having a bit of signalling to the market to say, \u201CLook, we are happy to pay to be able to use these roads as a tradie to get out to a job or to get somewhere that we need to go at a certain period of time, at a cost that reflects a signal to the market of what we\u2019re trying to do here.\u201D But, also, if you don\u2019t want to pay, \u201Ctime of use\u201D means just switch your time; shift your timing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EThat is the signal, the information that is being delivered by this sort of legislation and this sort of policy. I hark back to my farming days, where it was often a conversation that many farmers had of \u201CShould we become winter milk suppliers?\u201D Now, the reason that is something that people thought about was because you could get a premium for your milk. You could get paid a little bit more for supplying milk in what was either the shoulder or the really low seasons of milk supply. That meant that we had\u2014and similar to how we have roading infrastructure that is underutilised at certain parts of the days\u2014stainless steel, or have stainless steel, tied up in milk factories up and down this country, which is underutilised at the shoulders of the season and in the winter time when the grass isn\u2019t growing as strongly as it does around balance day. What we end up with is underutilised resource similar to roads in the middle of the day and over-utilised resource when the spring flushes on and milk\u2019s pouring into the vat.  That\u2019s what I would say the analogy to the road is around peak times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EWhat this is talking about is sending a signal; similar to winter milk, it\u2019s sending a signal, saying, \u201CPay a little bit more, we\u2019ll get your milk in the winter, and you can try and move that production to those seasons.\u201D We want to see people say, \u201CLook, I think it\u2019s a better use of my time to go out and use the roads at a time that isn\u2019t the peak.\u201D, and that means that people who do think it\u2019s worth their while\u2014tradies, people who need to get to jobs and businesses and schools and places of work at a specific time\u2014can see the benefit in that and pay that fee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003ETo the Tauranga experience, we did have the Tauranga commissioners who put out a discussion paper, a discussion in the public around congestion charging. I was very much in favour of that. I think what we need to do and what has been exhibited here across the House is a sense of unity on this. I hope that continues through the select committee stage so that we can have a solid policy that goes out to the public, and really get the best use out of our national infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022b186370ccda341b786367fdfb12fec69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b186370ccda341b786367fdfb12fec69\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Look, thanks, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise to support this first reading, and it\u2019s good to see the support around the House. This has been on the table for quite some time, as we\u2019ve already heard. In fact, Wellington\u2014not just Wellington City but the Wellington region\u2014and Auckland in particular have been asking for it. Actually, I can remember we\u2019ve already had the reference to the inquiry that was done which\u2014in fact, Mr Speaker, I think I can use \u201Cyou\u201D in this context\u2014you chaired in your previous role and making a submission, Wellington City and Greater Wellington at the same time, to say, \u201CHey, we actually support this as a tool to put into the tool kit.\u201D It\u2019s not the only answer to issues around congestion but it is an important tool, so it\u2019s great to see this here and to see the support here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI just wanted to pick up on a couple of things. First of all, the Hon Julie Anne Genter talked about getting other things right and having public transport and other means of transport right. That\u2019s really, really important\u2014also getting our urban form right. It\u2019s really interesting to see\u2014and I think about this in the context of housing and housing provision\u2014the first line of the explanatory note says, \u201CNew Zealand\u2019s largest cities face significant traffic congestion compared to cities with similar population densities.\u201D What this is, basically, saying is we\u2019ve got other cities around the world which don\u2019t face such a challenge, but what we\u2019ve done is we\u2019ve spread our cities out. I think there is a warning there that, while it might make it cheaper, there\u2019s also a cost to spreading out in terms of our cities. That cost is borne in congestion and the cost of infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThis is taking a targeted approach. It\u2019s about making sure that, at times and places where there is congestion, that\u2019s where you might apply this. You wouldn\u2019t apply it across the board. You\u2019d think about the cities where there is congestion. I\u2019ve already mentioned Auckland and Wellington. We\u2019ve had the mention from my friend Cam Luxton about Tauranga as well. There\u2019ll be a few places where this makes sense. There are many places where that would not cut the mustard and you wouldn\u2019t do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting also to reflect that the Infrastructure Commission\u2014who, I think, gives us really, really good advice\u2014has also suggested that pricing across the board, and where there\u2019s peak demand, not just for roading services or transport services but peak demand, we should put a price on that peak demand. We\u2019ve already had that reference to milk, but it might apply to other resources as well\u2014for example, power. We do that at the moment for a lot of our power use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe Minister, when he was introducing the bill, said that the thought was around 10\u00A0percent reduction in traffic volumes. That, actually, is really, really significant. In the suburb which I come from there\u2019s a difference of about 10 percent between the term time and the holiday time, and that makes all the difference in the world. What you have is free-flow holiday time, congestion during term time. That 10\u00A0percent makes a significant difference. This is real. The information there also says that the cost to Auckland, we\u2019ve already heard, is $2.6 billion. While taxes aren\u2019t very popular, neither is congestion. Nobody likes sitting in congestion for a long period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EA couple of other things I did want to talk about. One is that the cost of the schemes is going to be important, because these things are not going to be simple to put in place. There\u2019s a consultation process. There\u2019ll be a lot of design which needs to go into it. What time, what roads, what areas need to be covered. I do think\u2014and I think Tangi Utikere has given us a little bit of a warning on that\u2014the idea of central government coming down on top and saying, \u201CLet\u2019s go and design a scheme for any place.\u201D might be a little bit challenging and might not work terribly well. This has got to be done with local government and, equally importantly, with local communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EOne other thing I would say about councils involved here is that councils should not be deliberately creating congestion to be able to warrant a time of use scheme. I have seen councils not too far from here who might actually deliberately try and create congestion. That probably would not go down terribly well. I\u2019m looking forward very much to the submissions and to working through the detail. We do have a very collegial approach on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. It is good to see all the parties who are members of that committee supporting this, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022 data-id=\u002257542b5ad28e4601b5b5a797f42090f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257542b5ad28e4601b5b5a797f42090f7\u0022\u003ETAKUTAI TARSH KEMP (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I stand as the MP for T\u0101maki Makaurau and on behalf of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori to oppose the Land Transport Management (Time of Use Charging) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EThe bill unfairly burdens our most vulnerable: wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori, tangata moana, low-income workers, and those who have been locked out of public transport due to this Government\u2019s decisions. The Government claims congestion charging will reduce emissions and improve productivity, but what they fail to acknowledge is that the charge is a tax on those who often\u00A0have no other choice. It is our cleaners, our caregivers, our construction workers, many of whom are M\u0101ori and Pacific wh\u0101nau, who will feel this the most. These are the essential workers who cannot shift their work, which I heard a previous member talk about. Shifting your work is not that easy for our wh\u0101nau\u2014the hours; you know, we just can\u2019t do that. Instead\u00A0of investing in affordable alternatives, this Government has made it harder for them to get\u00A0around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003ELast year, the Government scrapped the half-price public transport subsidy. That decision alone made it more expensive for wh\u0101nau to get to work, to kura, and to the doctor. Now, with this bill, they are adding another cost on top of that. What choice does a single parent in South Auckland have when buses are infrequent and unreliable? What choice does a kaum\u0101tua in West Auckland have when their local train services have been cut? This is not congestion pricing; it is poverty pricing. The evidence backs this up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EThe Covec MRCagney report Congestion pricing in Auckland found that low-income households will face higher costs as a percentage of their income, compared to wealthier households. It also found that those on lower incomes are more likely to suppress trips altogether, meaning that they will miss out on employment, education, and their doctors appointments, all because this Government think they cannot make another dollar out of the struggling. There are so many families in T\u0101maki Makaurau who haven\u2019t even gone over the harbour bridge. This is transport injustice, plain and simple. In Aotearoa, where transport poverty is already a crisis, this bill will only widen existing inequalities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EThe Government argues that the revenue raised will be reinvested in transport, but history tells us otherwise. The reality is that without a clear commitment to equity, this bill will depend on the transport divide that already exists in our city. Instead of congestion charging, the Government should focus on transport solutions that uplift communities, not penalise them. We need fair, free public transport, better services in regions, and meaningful investment in infrastructure that serves the people who need it the most. That is how we address congestion\u2014by giving people real options, not by punishing them in circumstances beyond their control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003ECongestion pricing as it stands is another example of a policy that is blind to the realities of working class and M\u0101ori communities. If this Government truly cares about congestion, it must ensure that any charges come with real public transport improvements, targeted financial relief for low-income wh\u0101nau, and meaningful engagement with those whose pockets it will affect the most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003ET\u0113nei pire he raupatu hou. [This bill is a new confiscation.] This bill is another tax on our people, disguised as progress. If this Government truly cared about congestion, it would invest in public transport first, rather than punishing those with no alternative. We must oppose this bill until equity and fairness are at its centre. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00226aa3ec468700409e9bf2ec878a602eed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226aa3ec468700409e9bf2ec878a602eed\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and speak to the Land Transport Management (Time of Use Charging) Amendment Bill, which is part of the solution to reducing congestion. I just want to reiterate for the House today that congestion is a tax on New Zealand\u2019s economy\u2014in Auckland alone, $2.6 billion by 2026\u2014but it\u2019s also a tax on mental health and a tax on livability. This is a good bill\u2014a good bill\u2014that will reduce congestion, improve productivity, optimise our roading network, and improve mental health and wellbeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EIt is, as the Minister said, really about using the market mechanism, and it\u2019s pleasing to\u00A0see the other side of the House welcoming the use of market mechanisms to solve problems. The evidence base for all this comes from overseas cities: Singapore, Stockholm, Dubai, and Seoul.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208194a8774284dae9a52d33075e6c10f\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the public transport like there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a208c5bff6d4459aad03bcb7d0459d6\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: I think this is a really good bill, but it is only part of the solution. And, yes, public transport is part of it, but it\u2019s also making sure that local authorities trial new ideas to improve congestion on our local and national roads as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI am a member of the hard-working Transport and Infrastructure Committee, ably chaired by Andy Foster here. I\u2019m looking forward to receiving this bill and to interrogating the details further, and, to what the member from the M\u0101ori Party, Takutai Tarsh Kemp, said, to understanding the risks for working class members in our cities across the country and to making sure that it is workable, that it minimises risk not just for workers but also for small businesses, who are doing it tough out there at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EMost importantly, this isn\u2019t going to be a solution that is going to be able to be rolled out nationwide. There will really be limited cities that will take advantage of this, certainly Auckland and Wellington\u2014a member from the ACT Party mentioned Tauranga\u2014but I\u2019m really keen to see what other cities may be interested in applying this, and also within cities, how this bill will be applied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ETake Auckland, for example: there are classic places on State Highway 1 where this could be rolled out, or State Highway 16. In my community, in Northcote, there\u2019s congestion on our main arterial roads, which we may wish to consider. As a member of the select committee, I\u2019ll be wanting to understand the impact on small businesses, those that have to travel far and\u00A0that work in predominantly blue-collar professions, and how that will be rolled out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill. It is a bill that just provides the framework\u2014the framework\u2014for local authorities to apply time of use charging to their local areas. This is not about revenue gathering. All the funds that are gathered through time of use charging will be reinvested back into the local areas, which is great news for places like Auckland. I note that the mayor, Wayne Brown, is a strong advocate for time of use charging being applied to Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EIt is a rare moment where we have near-unanimous favourable votes in the House today, and I would encourage my colleagues from the M\u0101ori Party to join the waka\u2014there is still time\u2014because this, I think, is a good bill and a good bill that addresses a very significant challenge facing our cities up and down the country. As I said, it\u2019s a tax on productivity, it\u2019s a tax on our economy, but it\u2019s also a tax on mental health wellbeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EOn behalf of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, I look forward to welcoming submissions. If you are listening to this at home, you can go online very shortly and make a submission as part of this process. I commend this bill to the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00224e8d8bde36ec40f8a5f10e75545fac74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e8d8bde36ec40f8a5f10e75545fac74\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Congestion sucks. It sucks 2\u00BD hours out of the day of a tradie from Manurewa who\u2019s working in town. He might be working in Henderson, might be working in M\u0101ngere\u20142\u00BD, three hours gone from his day. It sucks two hours out of a parent\u2019s day that they could otherwise be spending with their kids at the end of the day, but instead they\u2019re in their car. It sucks the joy out of living in the Auckland suburbs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI live in the best place to live in the country. Manurewa is a paradise. Hillpark, where I live, is the best place to live in the country. We\u2019ve got the bush, we\u2019ve got the native birds, and we\u2019ve got the bus station in the town five minutes from where I live, with the library, but you cannot live there and work in town if you won\u2019t sign up for 1\u00BD hours on the way in, and 1\u00BD hours back. It\u2019s no good. We need to fix this. This is a bill that does that, and that\u2019s why I support it, but I\u2019ve still got questions about how it\u2019ll apply to those people in Manurewa. It needs the kind of controls that will make sure that it is fair for everyone, and that there are viable alternatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI looked today at the reporting from Auckland Council, and we\u2019ve got Mayor Wayne Brown saying it\u2019s costing Auckland $2.6 billion each year by 2026. This congestion problem is huge, and it will only get worse if we don\u2019t have these tools, and we absolutely need them, but when I looked through that report, I thought about the alternatives that are being proposed by Auckland Council. The alternatives are obviously more public transport, and access via the train and bus, and making choices like carpooling, and travelling outside of peak times. Those are all really good options for people, but there are some people who won\u2019t be able to use those, and we need to keep thinking about how to design a system which is fair for them\u2014fair for shift workers like people who cannot choose when they travel, and how they travel, and are needing to get to work at times when there are no other colleagues that they can go with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESome businesses in South Auckland will actually put on transport for their workers because there aren\u2019t good enough public transport options, and that\u2019s important, but those workers who don\u2019t work for a business like that, who can\u2019t put on those kinds of services, that is one of the number one issues that I encounter when I\u2019m out door knocking in a place like Wiri, where manufacturing workers are going to work at different times every week depending on their roster and do not have other options, with the dearth of transport options there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe also need to make sure that we\u2019re asking the questions of this Government that it has the right system in place to support these kinds of congestion charges. It\u2019s one thing to levy charges on people and demand behavioural change, but when the behavioural change happens, have you got what it takes to actually get people into the centre of the city? Are we going to see projects like the Northern Busway\u2014great, great project; very effective transport project\u2014and projects like the Eastern Busway hugely upping demand there and ending up in bus congestion if there are no other options for people? Will we end up with a Government that has actually hiked public transport fares; said it\u2019s going to build new roads as its priority and, furthermore, levy taxes on the Uber drivers who might be an alternative by levying charges on electric vehicles? Those are the alternatives, but this Government is turning the dial down on them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe need some answers about how this is actually going to be supported for behavioural change if behavioural change is in fact the thing that we\u2019re going for here. I look forward to a select committee process where we can actually dive into the detail of this, because it will take bipartisan effort. It will take cross-partisan effort. I also welcome the comments of the Greens, because there has to be alternatives for people if we\u2019re going to use regulatory tools like this to drive behaviour, because we are\u2014let\u2019s be frank\u2014telling people that they should change their behaviour. It is up to the Government to actually make that possible for people to do\u2014people with disabilities, kaum\u0101tua, kuia, people who do not have other options currently and deserve them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis Government taking money out of public transport and re-prioritising it into roads needs to actually front on those issues which are facing central Auckland now. They need to be able to give Auckland Council the ability to design not only this programme\u2014which in the empowering legislation does propose a lot of licence for councils\u2014but also the powers for Auckland Transport to actually get people where they need to go with appropriate fares, appropriate routes, and a well-funded system that has to be backed by Government to make something like this work. I\u2019m excited to get into this; chair Andy Foster has his work cut out for him. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u002219c299a877a144519c37bf8b40a1c972\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219c299a877a144519c37bf8b40a1c972\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and speak on this. This has been signalled for a long time, particularly from the infrastructure consultancy groups, and so it\u2019s great to see our Government just getting on and doing it, and also great to see the support from the other side of the House, of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EAs the Minister mentioned, congestion is really a tax on time, and also the chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, Andy Foster, made a really good analogy\u2014when we\u2019re travelling in peak traffic, and I think of the great suburb or electorate of Hamilton East between sort of 6.45 a.m. to 7 a.m. and about 9.15 a.m. peak traffic, particularly on school days. I\u2019m not necessarily saying this will be a solution for Hamilton, but you can see the effectiveness, or change, rather, of peak and off-peak traffic flows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EThis is, again, like a lot of our policies and decisions, a tool in the tool box. It\u2019s not a silver bullet, but it\u2019s another option that can help massage or feather the intensity of peak traffic flows. This is a tool that, like congestion being a tax on time, can be an option that will make people rethink about travel arrangements. They\u2019ve got an option of whether they can afford to pay the little bit extra because it\u2019s worth it and built into a business model, or they\u2019ll look at car pooling or public transport, or maybe starting earlier and finishing earlier. There\u2019s a myriad of options. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EThis is just another tool in the tool box that we\u2019ll be keen to explore through the select committee process. I look forward to that committee feeding back to the House and letting us know how those submissions pan out. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00222a621ca4a6384197818b40d4d0f571b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a621ca4a6384197818b40d4d0f571b0\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s good this afternoon to be able to speak to this piece of legislation on the time of use charging. This is one of the most constructive things that we can do in this Parliament to decongest our largest city in Aotearoa: Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EIf I go back to 2021, we had a wonderful chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee and we opened up an inquiry because we knew we were short of solutions at the time. We needed feedback from key stakeholders, the public, and from councils to say how we actually address the congestion challenge in front of us. We put to Aotearoa New Zealand the idea of congestion charging across a number of cities, but particularly we had a focus on T\u0101maki-makau-rau, Auckland. Overwhelmingly, people recognised that we had a congestion problem. In fact, once again this week, we saw the largest amount of congestion in \u201CMarch madness\u201D\u2014reported, of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe other thing that people said is that it is a cost on Aucklanders. I acknowledge today that, around the House, generally we agree that this is a really good thing. The Government members are talking about a tax on time, but we do need to recognise, actually, that this is a tax on Aucklanders. It\u2019s a tax on Aucklanders because it costs them money to get from A to B. The reality is that for those that choose to travel at peak time, it will halve congestion. It will be just like what we experience in school holidays\u2014if we\u2019re going down Onewa Road across to the city, then that will be the experience that will change for many that will use it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWe heard from countries overseas. We heard from Stockholm; I had the opportunity to travel to Vancouver to see how they were implementing congestion charging. They were very clear that change is instant on the day that congestion charging is introduced, but there will be a reaction from the public; that we, as members who are supporting this bill, will be challenged by that; and Government members do need to hold their nose and move through it and support this because it will be the change that we need to achieve in our city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EBack in 2021, when we launched this inquiry, things were quite different. The Government of the day were investing largely in public transport, in active walking and cycling measures; that we were on the road to put half-price public transport and free public transport in place for under-13s. Those are the types of initiatives that supported things like congestion charging to be implemented. If we seek to achieve the behaviour change and we use this as a demand management tool, then there needs to be good alternatives in place to motivate people and actually to support them to get from A to B. At the moment, the Government of this day has taken away many of those measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EPart of my concern, and where I will be looking at the select committee process, is how\u00A0do we ensure that not only does the revenue that this generates go back into our largest city\u2014into Auckland\u2014but also that it\u2019s invested back into public transport. Auckland Council were very clear on this; they want us to see that investment in public transport and walking and cycling to give people alternative modes to get around our city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EMy other concern here is that the Government says this isn\u2019t about revenue generation, but we do have a reality in front of us. They committed in the last election to repeal the fuel excise scheme, the regional fuel tax, in Auckland. They did that, but that left us with a $1.2 billion hole in dedicated transport infrastructure investment in Auckland. Those projects have now been shelved; they are no longer available, and so, again, I come back to those alternatives that are no longer there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EAlone, I agree with Government members that this isn\u2019t just one tool to fix congestion. What I\u2019m looking for is what are the other tools alongside that that they are putting in place to ensure that Aucklanders have meaningful alternatives to take, at a lower cost, to get them from A to B in the speed that they want to. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a046f927404c4687ab0d7d4c5781bdf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a046f927404c4687ab0d7d4c5781bdf0\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Like many others here today, it\u2019s a great privilege to be talking about the time of use pricing legislation that is having its first reading almost unanimously across the House. What a great day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003ESome of us who were around local government and working in mayors\u2019 offices over 20 years ago were excited when the transport Minister of the day, Paul Swain, through the Land Transport Management Act, was keen to introduce congestion charging and the possibility of tolling. That 2003 legislation never really quite delivered. If you\u2019re looking through the Land Transport Management Act now, there have been various versions to get it up to a position where public-private partnerships are enabled. Now, with this amendment, it will allow for the development of time of use schemes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EThis, as I said, is 20 years in the making. I remember when Michael Barnett, chair of commerce, and others were talking about $1 billion in wasted time and wasted fuel in Auckland. Now the report released by Auckland Council today talks about $2.6 billion by 2026, and that\u2019s just in Auckland alone. As has been articulated, Mayor Wayne Brown backs it. In fact, the headline at 3.15 on the New Zealand Herald: \u201CMayor Wayne Brown backs congestion charge amid $2.6 billion traffic cost\u201D. Brown said traffic costs businesses and Aucklanders alike and it needed to be fixed in order to get growth in the city. \u201CA time of use charge will enable people to think of other ways to travel, like public transport, carpooling or driving outside rush hour.\u201D We\u2019ve got to acknowledge that work flexibility these days enables many people to just alter their car movements, their truck movements, slightly to work around this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EThere was concern raised that perhaps this Government wasn\u2019t going to be investing in the multimodal options that motorists needed as a viable alternative if they weren\u2019t prepared to pay for time of use charging. Well, can I remind the Opposition about the Eastern Busway that we are committed to building. Can I remind the Opposition about John Key and Simon Bridges and others pulling the lever on the City Rail Link. And can I remind the Opposition of this Government\u2019s commitment to the dedicated northwestern bus corridor. There will be alternatives in place. We are committed to a multimodal system in Auckland and in other places, and we are committed to partnership with local government to ensure the design that will be overseen by NZTA and community input through the land transport schemes that both deliver up through regional land transport policies. It\u2019s with great delight that the National Party, in conjunction with ACT and New Zealand First, get this done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EWe remember the Labour Party in August 2023, and some of them were over there in front of the Harbour Bridge\u2014remember that? They were going to deliver the $56\u00A0billion plan to replace the bridge. I thought maybe I got that number wrong. I just googled it. Oh, yeah, it was $56 billion. It was talked from the tops of the cliffs down at the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron\u2014$56 billion plan. It was going to be like spaghetti put over the North Shore. It was going to see trams\u2014Dan Bidois, can you believe this?\u2014up Glenfield Road. This was pie in the sky stuff. Thankfully, with this Government, we\u2019re back to the basics, we\u2019re back to core business, and we\u2019re back to something that 90 percent of Aucklanders have wanted for 20 years\u2014it\u2019s time of use charging. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227dd6ba5788bf461ab010ba33e7985c21\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport Management (Time of Use Charging) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 117\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000489\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c352b912cac24414aa99cc8803108e65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c352b912cac24414aa99cc8803108e65\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Land Transport Management (Time of Use Charging) Amendment Bill be considered by the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e37c1b79df749d3ade76176f0a6654f\u0022\u003ETaxation (Annual Rates for 2024\u201325, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3897d35632a42938f1ff9b14462b848\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbc282a5d89949d9949048a1190f6a39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbc282a5d89949d9949048a1190f6a39\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Revenue: I present a legislative statement on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024\u201325, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296a177fc8b4b4c0f8b2b66b8050e7fda\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022371261ae633247ca9aa7b0cbb8319dc2\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024\u201325, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe bill as reported back from the Finance and Expenditure Committee contains a range of adjustments as a result of public feedback. I should point out that feedback from the submitters on the bill has not changed the bill materially. This is because the bill was generally well received by submitters. In fact, responses focused largely on opportunities for extending the ambit of proposals\u201415 percent on interest payments\u2014that\u2019s interesting. That\u2019s very good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EMany of the things that have been arranged in this legislation relate to interest payments, and they can also pay a levy of 2 percent. We want to make eligible businesses able to access those savings even if they mistakenly register for approved issuer levy (AIL) late, so we\u2019re proposing that the borrowers could retrospectively register a security, in some circumstances, to qualify for the lower tax rate on interest payments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESubmitters supported the proposal but thought it could go further\u2014one of the proposals in this legislation. Some suggested that a two-year time limit on applying for retrospective registration be removed. Others said the concession should be available not only where the borrower overlooked the AIL requirements altogether but also where they failed to register on time despite attempting to do so. It was also suggested that tax pooling should be available to settle an AIL liability resulting from retrospective registration. The committee agreed with those suggestions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, legislation was also needed for the Canterbury earthquakes and 2023 North Island floods and previous efforts, but submitters were generally supportive of the generic response to emergency events proposal. I was pleased to see that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe also want to help young people secure their economic future. We\u2019re proposing to allow, as part of this legislation, young people under 16 to enrol in KiwiSaver with the signature of just one guardian. At present, they need the consent of all guardians, and that can be difficult where parents are living apart, for instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EOne last thing to note is that some submitters expressed support for the bill\u2019s strong remedial focus. This is a positive thing. An important job in tax policy is to continue to work at rectifying legislation to ensure that it\u2019s fit for purpose while continuing to meet the intended policy objective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t want to take up too much time of the House, and so, on that matter, I now move that this be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00229f7ce2a7edef417e94bb4a3147bd65a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f7ce2a7edef417e94bb4a3147bd65a7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Many\u2014perhaps most\u2014of the measures of this bill are good and sensible measures with respect to tax law, and like a lot of the tax legislation that goes through this House, all sides of the House agree on particular matters in the bill. However, the Labour Party will be voting against this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe reason is not the particular tax measures, but the bill does contain the annual rates for 2024-25, and unfortunately, we do not see in those rates any response to the fiscal needs of this country. We will be examining those rates, in particular during the committee stage of the bill when we reach that\u2014sometime soon, I hope, because this bill must be passed by the end of March. In the debate on Part 1 during the committee stage, we\u2019ll have a long discussion about the annual rates, as is traditional. That is the tax debate for the year, in the committee stage of the annual rates bill, and I trust all members of the House will participate in it. I think, at that stage, you\u2019ll hear us talking about how tax rates relate to services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EOne of the duties of the Minister of Revenue is to safeguard the revenue system. One of the jobs for the revenue system in this country is to ensure that it supplies enough Government revenue\u2014gathered from all citizens, all residents\u2014to ensure that Government can do the things that Government ought to do, like paying for a health system, like paying for an education system, like paying for decent school lunches, and like paying for the increased defence spending we\u2019re likely to need in this increasingly uncertain world. Yet we do not see the Minister taking responsibility for ensuring that the revenue system can supply those needs, so we\u2019ll talk about that extensively in the committee stage of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EHowever, in the meantime, we want to talk about some of the other measures in this bill. As I\u2019ve already said, we pretty much, by and large, agree with them, but I think they are worthy of comment rather than just a garbled rush in order to get the initial speech out in the House. I do want to talk about some of the particular measures in this bill. The most interesting one is the generic response to emergency events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, members of the House and people who have joined the House in this Parliament will know that in the six years that the Labour Government was in office, there were three\u2014arguably four\u2014black swan events that had a huge impact on the country. There was the COVID emergency, which had an enormous impact on the country. Possibly the Whakaari explosion could be counted in this regard. There was very much the Auckland Anniversary weekend floods. There was Cyclone Hale just before the Auckland Anniversary weekend floods, and then, of course, there was Cyclone Gabrielle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIn each of those big black swan events\u2014events that had a huge impact on the country, the nature of which the current Government hasn\u2019t had to deal with one of those yet\u2014what happened was that we needed to take tax measures to help businesses through: help them with their cash flow, help with some of the extra expenditure, and help with some of the insurance implications of what went on. Each time one of those events occurred, a whole series of measures was wheeled out, but it had to be wheeled out individually each time, for each event.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAs that went on, the thinking in the tax community, the thinking in our party, the thinking of Ministers at the time, and the thinking of Government departments was that, actually, there should be a generic set of measures, a set of measures that could be plucked off the shelf and rolled out as needed, in order to ensure that people affected by a disaster could continue to manage their affairs in a satisfactory manner. The sorts of generic responses we\u2019re talking about are the ability to get some rollover relief, the ability to defer tax payments, and the assurance that penalties would not be applied if tax payments were late and so on\u2014because of the nature of the emergency. This is a particularly good set of measures\u2014started under the previous Government, quite correctly continued by the current Government, as a way of ensuring that there could be a generic response to emergencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESitting in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, we did some work on that and to improve the particular set of measures that could be rolled out. I think when the next black swan event occurs, whoever the Minister of Revenue is, whoever the Minister of Finance is, won\u2019t have to try to design measures from scratch and won\u2019t even have to look back at the measures that have been used previously. They can reach for them from the shelf. That\u2019s an excellent piece of work from across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s some quite complicated stuff sitting in this new legislation, this particular tax bill, around when people moving to New Zealand\u2014in particular, from the UK\u2014try to bring their pension funds with them. There are some particular interactions between the New Zealand tax law and the UK tax law that mean that those people attempting to transfer their savings from the UK to New Zealand\u2014to have them locked up, as they are with KiwiSaver\u2014nevertheless face an extra tax burden just because of the interaction of the legislation. What they have to do is transfer their foreign investment savings, their UK investment savings, to what\u2019s called a QROPS scheme, and that stands for a qualifying recognised overseas pension scheme, but with that, they did get an extra tax burden.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, the thinking going into select committee was that all KiwiSaver schemes would be required to provide a QROPS service to people who wanted to join those schemes, but through the select committee process, we realised that in fact that wasn\u2019t necessary for all KiwiSaver schemes, that it could be done on a voluntary basis. You\u2019ll see that change coming through in the legislation as it comes through the House, in the committee stage, and I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll talk about it a little bit more there. The objective there, complicated as it was, was to ensure that people paid their tax but paid no more tax than they ought to between the transfers in the country. Otherwise it could have been a double taxation situation for some people, which does seem at least a little unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere is another nice measure in here sitting around the minor beneficiaries rule. Now, that\u2019s a rule that applies to trusts. There was a particular complication around trusts for people with disabilities, where they could get hit with the minor beneficiaries rule, meaning they\u2019d end up paying extra tax. This bill fixes that\u2014so, again, another good measure. I would note that that was sitting in the remedials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Justice just said that the bill contained a number of remedial measures. Of course, remedial measures are important, and they occur in a couple of situations. One is where the tax law just doesn\u2019t\u2014the drafting of the law, the way it\u2019s gone through\u2014quite work in the way it was intended. Tax law is complicated, and sometimes there can be interactions that are not foreseen. Sometimes the law as drafted doesn\u2019t really quite meet the commercial situation, so we need to put through a remedial to remediate the law, to fix it up. Sometimes the way that we do business changes and the law no longer quite fits. That is the purpose of a remedial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EInland Revenue often spots remedials itself. Businesses write in all the time, particularly tax consultants, saying we need a remedial for this, that, or the other\u2014something needs to be fixed in the legislation. What that points to is a very important process in New Zealand, that the tax community\u2014tax professionals; the firms; the academics; and the Treasury and Inland Revenue, the tax experts there\u2014and, by and large, politicians as well too, do work hard to make sure that those remedials get through the process and that we keep the Income Tax Act looking shipshape. It is a complicated Act, and it is hard to keep it shipshape, but there\u2019s a lot of work that goes into it, with a lot of goodwill from across the House and from across the tax community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAs I said previously, we will be voting in favour of all the amendments to the bill at committee stage, but we will not be supporting Part 1 of the bill, and alas, we cannot support the bill overall because of the annual rates in it. Having said that, I\u2019m looking forward to the debate we will have at the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u002235388d2b34f2400bbc646ed1e6b70d8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235388d2b34f2400bbc646ed1e6b70d8b\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I just wanted to appreciate the contribution made by the Hon Dr Deborah Russell just then, walking us through the changes that were made at the Finance and Expenditure Committee. It is, of course, in those moments that we see that cordial working across the aisle to try and improve pieces of legislation, even if indeed we are opposed to those laws. Herein I just want to speak to firstly some of the parts of the legislation that the Greens do support but make the point that we cannot support the bill in its entirety because it entrenches the Government\u2019s trickle-down tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESome of those initiatives which we support in the bill are the likes of incorporating the crypto-asset reporting framework, and the amendments to the common reporting standard, of course, enabling young people under 16 to enrol in KiwiSaver with the agreement of one parent or guardian\u2014making it a lot easier for solo parents, I might add\u2014and also addressing the issue of locked-in KiwiSaver funds for migrants. But it would be remiss of me not to spend the majority of my time in this contribution today speaking about the so-called meat in the sandwich that is the centrepiece of this Government\u2019s Budget from May last year, which was of course those trickle-down tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EHere, if I may, I would like to refer to the regulatory impact statement of those income tax cuts, which are entrenched within Part 1 of this legislation, and where we see the benefit of those tax cuts aggregating who ends up actually winning from these changes that the Government is making to our income tax system. Herein you can see the distribution of who gets what on a weekly basis based on quintiles\u2014that is, every 20\u00A0percent of the population. You can see painted here very clearly that the top two quintiles\u2014that is, 40 percent of households\u2014gain $1.6 billion or 55 percent of the total of the value of those tax cuts. Those top two quintiles, that top 40 percent, it must be noted, also benefit from $750 million a year from the landlord tax cut reduction. When that is included, that top 40 percent in our country ends up getting 64 percent of the value of the Government\u2019s tax cuts\u2014by far the lion\u2019s share of that total. What is actually even more shocking is that the lowest quintile, the bottom 20\u00A0percent of New Zealanders, are getting just 5.4 percent of the total over here. Even more than that\u2014and the Government knows this\u2014we are seeing 130,000 households get nothing at all. Meanwhile, 8,000 households are worse off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s just about the distribution of these income tax cuts as put in Part 1 of this legislation. That\u2019s not even speaking to the bigger thematics and the consequences that we will see in our economy and in our society as a result of the decisions that this Government has made in its Budget in May 2024, which this bill goes some way to actually rolling out, because these tax cuts were paid for by the reintroduction of prescription fees, by increases in bus fares, by increases in vehicle registration fees, by increased and raised immigration levies, by higher tertiary education fees, by more toll roads, by increased court fees, of course, by a hiring freeze at the front line of our public services, particularly at our hospitals, and by cuts\u2014cuts, cuts, cuts: cuts to Dunedin Hospital plans, cuts to the per child cost of the school lunch programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis is trickle-down economics in practice. It is reheated from the 1980s. What are we seeing in terms of the Government\u2019s plan? Well, they\u2019re telling us a heck of a lot about their plan to go for growth. Yet so far, what we have seen in practice as a result of the intentional decisions that they have made is that they have knowingly increased climate changing emissions, they have knowingly increased child material hardship, and they have knowingly increased inequality. I want to spend a moment particularly on that point of inequality, not just on the distribution of who wins and who benefits the most from these income tax cuts as put forward by the Government but with regards to the broader sense of disdain that this Government seems to have, and that the Prime Minister echoed in his responses in question time to me the week before last when I asked him about whether he thought it was the Government\u2019s job to deal with inequality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ETolerance of inequality, of gross inequality in particular, is precisely what creates poverty. This was spelled out by research done by the Inland Revenue Department in 2023, which told us that the top 311 households in Aotearoa hold more wealth than 2.5\u00A0million New Zealanders. That report also spelled out that that is not an accident but a consequence of a tax system which sees those at the top pay an effective tax rate that is less than half of that of the average New Zealander. Just before we got into this debate, we had one Minister of this Crown actually chastising me for making the point that there was something that economists across the board agree with. The point that I had made is that economists across the board agree with the fact that Aotearoa New Zealand is an outlier and that we pay the cost for not having any form of capital gains tax, stamp duty, wealth tax, or otherwise that addresses that fundamental inequality but, more so than that, exacerbates the productivity crises that we have in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EHere I would only just quote from the OECD Economic Surveys: New Zealand 2024, where they say, \u201CThere is a need to reduce distortions to household choice of asset allocation. Shares, land and owner-occupied residential property are tax favoured. Most capital gains from shares, owner-occupied residential property and land are not taxed. To ensure the tax system is not overly distorting saving and supporting broader growth,\u201D\u2014by the way, something the Government keeps telling us that they care about\u2014 \u201Ccapital gains taxation reform should be done as part of a review of tax settings for saving.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EOf course, we are, unfortunately, not having that debate today, are we? We\u2019re not actually meaningfully talking about, from an evidence-based perspective, how we go about improving productivity in this country, how we go about fixing those distortions in our tax system. No. We are, unfortunately, still stuck in the frame of these trickle-down tax cuts and, effectively, of austerity, of being told that we need to put private gain ahead of the public good, which only continues to further entrench all of the issues that we see play out in society, because after 50-odd years of this playbook, New Zealanders are not safer, New Zealanders are not healthier, and New Zealanders are not happier. In fact, the opposite is true. The way to remedy all of these issues is for us as a Parliament to finally take meaningful responsibility to build the public infrastructure and the public good that New Zealanders deserve and ultimately rely on, which, I might add, those who currently enjoy untaxed capital gains also benefit from and make their money off the back of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe know that societies with greater wealth inequality are less cohesive. They are less functional, and they are less healthy than their more equal counterparts. Inequality corrodes the basics of a good society. That is people\u2019s ability to participate not just in this ephemeral notion of society but actually in our democracy. I think ultimately what you will find in this bill is continuing to spearhead the charge for trickle-down economics thinking, which has deeply, deeply under-served our communities for at least 40 years now. Unfortunately, that is the reason that we simply cannot support this bill, because despite there being a sprinkling of a few good things that are relatively overdue and have consensus across the House upon, this Government is forging ahead with a path of continuing to cut our public services. What do New Zealanders have to show for it? Some trickle-down tax cuts which absolutely do not touch the sides on the cost of living, which this Government promised New Zealanders that it would deal with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe simply cannot support this bill. I would remind all members of the Government that this is in the regulatory impact statement that was first issued along with the income tax proposals. It shows all of you, all of this Parliament, precisely what this Government values. It is not fairness, it is not justice, and it is clearly not equality or everybody\u2019s ability to participate in our society or this economy that they keep banging on about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u00228deeaa0f1a214e0190ff09f530e57799\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228deeaa0f1a214e0190ff09f530e57799\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT to speak on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003ELet me start by just thanking my colleagues on the Finance and Expenditure Committee. As we\u2019ve already heard in some of the contributions this afternoon, it was a collaborative process. It is good to actually have some tax experts like the Hon Dr Deborah Russell on our committee. She\u2019s obviously very interested in some of the issues and a lot of the technicalities, so she does add a lot of value, so it\u2019s good to have her. We were also ably helped this year by John Cantin, who\u2019s our adviser to the committee, and, again, we really appreciated the advice that he was able to provide us, along with IRD officials. It\u2019s good to have an independent adviser just to check on those officials and also make sure that the IRD are reflecting what the tax community are thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EAs we\u2019ve already heard, there\u2019s actually a lot of things to agree on in this bill. You know, we\u2019re putting in place some of these issues around the OECD framework for tax reporting. We\u2019ve dealt with issues around pension transfers across borders. We\u2019ve heard about the ability for under-16-year-olds to enrol in KiwiSaver with just a single consent. There\u2019s a few other issues, including actually streamlining the tax settings for an emergency response and actually having something that can be used immediately without having to pass additional legislation, and as we\u2019ve witnessed in the last few years, we have had a few of those matters here. There\u2019s a lot, obviously, that there\u2019s consensus on across the House, which is great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EObviously, though, a very key part of this bill is the setting of the annual tax rates. Look, in ACT we\u2019re unapologetically in support of that as part of this Government, because we are actually about delivering tax relief for New Zealanders, and look, we should be very proud of our tax system. We do actually have a very robust tax system. It actually does have a lot of transparency. We don\u2019t have a lot of deductions. It works very well. With our package, we\u2019re obviously putting in tax relief for Kiwis. It does show a difference between what our Government and some members of the Opposition think\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E In addition to dealing with lowering tax\u2014actually giving Kiwi families and businesses a break, actually letting them get on with spending some of their own money\u2014we\u2019ve also been able to do that by actually reining in Government spending, and so we\u2019ve actually had to take a very considered approach to how we\u2019re taking and spending taxpayers\u2019 money. We wanted to make sure that that is being spent well and they are actually getting the public services that they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247d54fa421a043baac880a7ab82fa5c0\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f01819abdac40b4afe28b74290ecdb6\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s right, because under the last lot, we didn\u2019t measure how public services were actually being delivered and what they were getting, and so we\u2019re taking a different approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226fc6c8a17884dd1a680651b9561cf73\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d check the veracity of those statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294c511055d914d3caff9323c5ef156e7\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: I also heard Ms Swarbrick say that tax cuts won\u2019t actually improve productivity. Well, that\u2019s wrong. Actually, putting in place a capital gains is a tax on investment, and, in fact, what we need to do is actually have people investing in our businesses to improve productivity\u2014adopting new technology, training their staff, etc., etc. Actually, lower taxes do improve productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EThe other thing that we\u2019ve made sure we\u2019ve done is we\u2019re being very clear about what people are getting for their taxes, and so we\u2019ve been able to do two things with this reduction in taxes. One, we\u2019re saying, \u201CPeople, you had no tax relief for many, many, many years, and we\u2019re delivering that.\u201D Number two, we\u2019re taking a hard look at the Government books and making sure we\u2019re getting value and spending for money. It\u2019s a totally different approach to what has been done previously, but we\u2019re very proud in ACT to be a part of a Government actually taking that approach, and so I will be commending this bill to the House on behalf of ACT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022 data-id=\u00228628a937fb2548ca8f0de96ea4fc4192\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228628a937fb2548ca8f0de96ea4fc4192\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024\u201325, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EBefore I begin, I do want to say a congratulations today to Stuart Smith, who has become the Chief Whip of National and of the Government. He is someone I\u2019ve worked closely with in the Kaik\u014Dura electorate. It also just reminds this House of the importance of South Island MPs, as we\u2019re now sitting in very prominent positions, and also our new Minister for the South Island. But I realise I need to keep focused and get on to the bill at hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First does support this bill, for a number of reasons. As you can see, this bill is substantial. It\u2019s complex\u2014\u2014170-odd pages, with 200 amendments, so it is a piece of legislation that is difficult to get to know every amendment in it. But, again, the people who have specialised knowledge\u2014and I do acknowledge the Hon Dr Deborah Russell and her contributions during the committee stage, because this stuff in here can put the ordinary New Zealander to sleep. But the ordinary New Zealander is interested in the tax rates, and they\u2019re being confirmed in this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EIt is also difficult to hear from the Opposition as they, again, discuss that they will not support this as we go through the readings. This Government finally made the proactive decision to change the thresholds in the tax rates. That is something that New Zealanders have waited for since 2010 to see changes in the thresholds\u20142010. We actually have the Opposition saying to us, \u201CActually, we don\u2019t support that. We don\u2019t support seeing extra money in New Zealanders\u2019 pockets.\u201D I find that very difficult to understand in a cost of living\u00A0crisis, that we can\u2019t get support across the House to actually get the support that our families, our business owners, and our individuals need to just buy the basics. That is disappointing. It\u2019s a different philosophy, where that side of the House believes they will tax, tax, tax, and their philosophy is that they will do everything for everyone, but there is self-responsibility, and this side of the House believes that by putting more money into people\u2019s pockets, people\u00A0can make the right decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EAlso, as I mentioned, there are so many amendments in this piece of legislation. Probably the most substantial one is the emergency events. I\u2019ve seen in my electorate, in Kaik\u014Dura, the earthquakes that came. We\u2019ve seen the North Island floods and weather events, and we\u2019re seeing, over time, the different events that come. In this piece of legislation, the changes here allow an Order in Council, and I think that is the big thing. Instead of having to have a piece of legislation that goes through the House, an Order in Council can make the necessary, quick changes to actually help people that are in times of need, in times where different emergency events have occurred. It is good that there is consensus across the House on that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also heard around KiwiSaver the overseas pension transfer reforms. We heard through submitters how people bringing their pensions back into New Zealand were actually being penalised. So, for those people, this actually helps them to not get taxed in a bulk amount but actually allows the money to come back into the pension fund and actually be dealt with in a way that the pension fund can actually pay the amount of tax that is required, instead of the individual ending up with a lump sum of tax to have to pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EAlso, through the bill, there were zero-rated issues, the GST zero-rated issues around the international vessels\u2014some common-sense remedials in that sense. We also heard from the Minister of Finance a few weeks ago around FamilyBoost and the importance of changing so people are eligible for FamilyBoost\u2014some minor changes there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EWe had 28 submissions. It\u2019s a technical bill. We did hear from the likes of PricewaterhouseCoopers, KPMG, those tax advisers who specialise, and they were able to bring those finer details to light. The committee, through the 16 oral hearings, have made changes. What I can say is that it is a minimal fiscal cost to the Government but they make substantial changes to individuals and to businesses in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EI think what I want to end up on here is that sometimes with remedials, they only affect you when it\u2019s something out of the blue or it\u2019s a minor thing, but when they actually affect your business or you as an individual, they become a substantial issue, and that\u2019s what this remedial bill does. Those loopholes\u2014it actually gives an answer to people having to pay their tax. So, in that, it is good to see that this bill sorts out those issues, those pitfalls, and, actually, what you hope happens is that future taxpayers don\u2019t have to stumble or fight IRD or have to go through lengthy discussions, because we actually find a solution in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EOn all those parts, New Zealand First supports. I look forward to this going through to the committee of the whole House stage. So I further say that I commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022785a7d7b4e7d4ecfa8dd681f1cd56326\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022785a7d7b4e7d4ecfa8dd681f1cd56326\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to my feet and give a short k\u014Drero on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024\u201325, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThe change is a change of income tax by stealth, hammering the wrong end of town once again. I just heard the last speaker, Jamie Arbuckle, talk about how there\u2019s a minimal fiscal cost on the Government, but it would have quite a substantial cost to the income earner. I\u2019m talking about M\u0101ori as a whole. As we all know, our tax system has fuelled extreme wealth inequities, and this Government\u2019s changes will further facilitate the theft of our hard-earned money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s tax adjustment will make our poorest wh\u0101nau worse off\u20143,000 single-parent householders are earning less because of these tax cuts. This Government has given $3 billion tax cuts to landlords while over a million people who are earning less than $30,000 a year will only get $2 a week from their tax cuts. They have taken away public transport subsidies, free prescriptions. They\u2019ve also taken away first-home grants. They\u2019ve increased rates. They\u2019ve cut the minimum wage, cut the benefit, cut 10,000 jobs. All of this for a couple more dollars a week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWe are not stupid. We know that you are taking away more than you are giving. The $3 billion tax cut for landlords is more than just a blatant example of the real priorities\u2014looking after the rich mates. This tax cut is actually going to make the housing crisis so much worse in the long run. It will allow mega landlords to borrow more money to buy more houses until 99 percent of the people in Aotearoa are paying their rent to the 1 percent of homeowners. We have heard a lot of talk about M\u0101ori privilege because the super-wealthy need us to blame each other before we blame them. First they stole the land, then they stole our labour. This is what this country has come to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EIt is an absolute travesty that the tax policies were implemented\u2014if we had a tax policy, 98 percent of the wh\u0101nau here in Aotearoa would be better off overnight. I\u2019ll tell you why: removing GST, removing income tax for wh\u0101nau on low incomes, we would increase take-home pay for 98 percent of wh\u0101nau, income tax on those earning more than $200k, the company tax rate from 28 percent to 33 percent. We\u2019ll introduce a wealth tax, foreign companies tax, land banking tax, vacant house tax. These are the omnibus taxes that we should be discussing in any bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWhen you\u2019ve got 2 percent of the country controlling 50 percent of this country\u2019s wealth, that is a travesty. And we continue to talk about omnibus bills that affect the lowest income earners here in Aotearoa. This Government has no aroha. It has no heart for those hard-earning, hard-working communities out there, and this, once again, is going to make it even harder. Yes, there are some good things in there, but there are a hell of a lot of other things we should be doing with our tax system. The tax system is broken and it continues to allow the rich to pay only 9 percent while the rest of Aotearoa pays 20.2\u00A0percent. This is the reality, and that\u2019s the omnibus bill that we should be talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EAll of these changes would actually affect 98 percent of Aotearoa\u2019s earning capacity, but what we\u2019re doing is continuing to favour the 2 percent that continue to control 50\u00A0percent of the country\u2019s wealth, and this Government continues to move bills in their favour. We must look at a tax system that\u2019s fairer. Wealth tax is the only way\u2014is the only way. Yes, you\u2019re allowing people to be able to transfer monies from overseas back here, but we are not punishing those who are making billions of dollars\u2014the banks, the supermarkets, who are Australian-owned\u2014to take the income and the profit that they make overseas. That\u2019s the tax\u00A0we should be talking about. That money should be used for the greater good of Aotearoa, but it is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWhat we are doing here is discussing an omnibus bill that\u2019s going to put more pressure on those who work hard to uphold the lavish lifestyle of the rich\u2014and, again, the 2\u00A0percent that control 50\u00A0percent of this country\u2019s wealth. We will not be supporting this bill to the House. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed50228812ee4377825fa86de3d3902f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed50228812ee4377825fa86de3d3902f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. As my colleague Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick mentioned before, the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand will not be supporting this bill. Yes, there were parts that have been mentioned that were a technical change, but let us be clear: this bill is a technical solution. It is a gentle edit to the potential hopes and dreams that people of Aotearoa New Zealand could achieve, and this bill does nothing for most of the people of Aotearoa, in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ELet us reiterate: through this bill, the top 40 percent get a break of $1.6 billion or 55\u00A0percent of the break, and that is from the officials themselves. That is in the regulatory impact statement. On top of that, $750 million a year for landlords for tax cuts, with the bottom 20 percent only getting 5.4 percent of the tax cuts\u2014130,000 households get nothing. Let us just remember those stats: 130,000 households get nothing at all; 8,000 households are worse off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EYou have people who will tell you, \u201CIsn\u2019t a tax cut good? Isn\u2019t it nice that some people just get a little bit of money in their back pocket?\u201D Let us break it down. If you are a couple and you are on superannuation and that\u2019s all you are on, you are getting\u2014through the Government\u2019s own budget calculator\u2014$8.62 for the couple, for the two of you, per fortnight. That is $2.16 per week. That is 31c per day. A two litre bottle of milk has gone up by 29c, just most recently. A one kilo block of cheese has gone up by 10c. When the cost of living cannot keep up, when the money that people are getting, the tax cuts people are getting, cannot keep up with the cost of living, that is not a tax break. That is not beneficial to the people of Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWhat we are seeing is a Government that only talks about growth, and before we talk about the fact that we have seen a Prime Minister who consistently uses the term \u201Cruthlessly in pursuit of growth\u201D, I would like to remind the House that the adverb \u201Cruthlessly\u201D has never been used in any positive light. That is only ever used to describe cruel and cold-blooded intent. That is the official definition of ruthlessly. This is the leadership that we have in Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWe are seeing the Government, in order to cover the deficit, using overseas as a way of selling off and of entertaining the privatisation and the commercialisation of assets from Aotearoa of things that people of Aotearoa have worked and earned them for themselves and for their wh\u0101nau and for their communities. We have seen the fact that just today, the Prime Minister will not commit to our nationally determined contributions as part of the Paris Agreement and without even recognising the fiscal cost that this will have on Aotearoa, on the whole. We are seeing shocking stats for child poverty. We\u2019re seeing one in eight of our tamariki living in material hardship, one in five for tamariki M\u0101ori, one in four for Pasifika children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re seeing hack and slash to the Ka Ora, Ka Ako programme, and within that we\u2019re seeing the way that this Government chooses to evaluate programmes that are meant to be feeding our tamariki. Out of the six evaluations that they will be using, three are about cost saving. They are not about our tamariki, they are not about our mokopuna, and they are not about our future. This is the reality of this bill, but an alternative is possible. It just requires political will. Poverty is a political choice, taxation is a political choice, and we have the tools to make those kind of genuine changes based on data, based on what economists around Aotearoa and internationally are telling us. What we need, what we need in terms of a capital gains tax, what we need in terms of trust tax or stamp duty\u2014those are things that are possible for us. This is the time for us to hold on to that hope, and let\u2019s not just simply edit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u00228ad5a66c62b748d490a5a942763fe873\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ad5a66c62b748d490a5a942763fe873\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019ve heard a lot on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024\u201325, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill, particularly the Opposition continuing to decline and continuing to reject the tax cuts that New Zealanders deserve 14 years on from the last lift of the tax thresholds\u201414 years on. What we are hearing, for those that are upset about this reconfirmation of the 2024-25 tax year, is their anti-ness of hard-working Kiwis getting some tax relief, as they have done in the last nine months. Can I remind the House that, overall, 83 percent of Kiwis or 94 percent of households benefited from the Government\u2019s tax package\u2014personal tax package\u2014that we are confirming today through this taxation bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EThe thresholds have risen from $14,000 to $15,600 for the 17.5 percent tax rate. They have risen from $48,000 to $53,500 for those paying the 30 percent tax rate. They\u2019ve risen from $70,000 to $78,100 for the 33 percent tax rate. The threshold above that hasn\u2019t been changed. This is a tax cut that only benefits those that are earning those dollars\u2014the dollars treated beneath $78,100. It\u2019s a tax cut from low to middle income workers; it\u2019s not skewed towards the wealthy. It\u2019s effectively capped: the tax-cut benefit stops at every dollar earned after $78,100.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EThis is a tax cut not for the rich. I reiterate: this is a tax cut for low to middle income workers, and frankly, any dollars earned after $78,100 are not getting a tax cut. This is for middle New Zealand. We are proud of this, and this is why this side of the House will be voting for this taxation amendment bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6a6a6ed4e464810bd8596ba31f868a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6a6a6ed4e464810bd8596ba31f868a7\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to comment on this bill. I do so mainly in my capacity as the Labour Party spokesperson on emergency management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EFor those who are familiar with the content of this bill, they\u2019ll be aware that there are significant changes that this bill makes in relation to the way that emergencies are dealt with in New Zealand. Unfortunately, we do live a country, otherwise known as the \u201CShaky Isles\u201D, that does frequently experience emergency situations due to natural events, and also we\u2019ve had emergency situations in our recent history to do with COVID-19. This is something that everyone in this House will be familiar with, and I\u2019m sure there\u2019s many people who have lived through and supported their constituents through some of these events, which are mentioned in the documentation provided to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIn relation to those emergency measures that are in this taxation bill, essentially, as I understand it\u2014and I wasn\u2019t privileged enough to be on the committee that looked into this, but from my understanding\u2014this bill, effectively, enables an off-the-shelf measure of tax support that can be utilised in an emergency situation. We did have that under the previous Labour Government and also under the previous National Government, who dealt with other disasters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had a number of emergencies that have been looked at in relation to tax relief. We\u2019ve had the Kaik\u014Dura earthquake; we\u2019ve had the COVID-19 response. We\u2019ve also had the Auckland floods and Cyclone Gabrielle as recent examples of when tax has been utilised in order to assist the emergency response in a situation. That part of the bill the Labour Party is supportive of. You would have heard my colleague Deborah Russell, who has been participating extensively in this at select committee, mentioning the reasons that those provisions are necessary. That is something that I think will be welcomed by New Zealanders in terms of these particular changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAnother thing which I think is interesting is the proposal to turn off the brightline test in a situation where there is an emergency event. Obviously that type of situation could be quite catastrophic for the person involved, and so these obviously address those situations. I don\u2019t need to tell the House about how awful some of these situations can be, but it was interesting for me to see how our taxation system and the good people at Inland Revenue were able to utilise the existing measures in order to address some of these emergency events but also, hopefully, to make this easier in the future so that future Governments\u2014obviously, we all knock on wood and we hope that there aren\u2019t huge emergency situations that this country has to face in the future, but we understand and emergency management people will tell you that it is when, not if, we face another disaster. I think it is prudent that those are included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThat was the main aspect that I wanted to cover in my contribution today, but the other thing that I feel I must address is the fact that, as has been mentioned by other members and also members across the House, we will not be supporting this bill as a whole. That is really because of the fact that there are the inclusion of the tax changes that were brought in in the Budget as a schedule to this bill. That is something that we disagreed with. I\u2019ve heard members opposite say they can\u2019t understand why we would feel that way. I just think it\u2019s important to look at this holistically in terms of the impact that those tax changes have had on New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EOf course we want New Zealanders to have support in a cost of living crisis, of course we want all of our needs to be met within a society, but unfortunately the thing with tax cuts is timing is really important. It was a very difficult time, and we\u2019re seeing the consequences of that through our health system. We are seeing consequences of that through other programmes, like the school lunch programme, which has had a reduction in funding. We are seeing things that we wouldn\u2019t necessarily choose ourselves. This is a very important political difference that is highlighted within this bill within the way that we approach taxation within New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we want New Zealanders to flourish. We want to see an economy that is doing well. We want to see a productive economy. We want to see people doing as well as they possibly can. In our view, the changes that were put in place by the Government during the Budget process are not the way to do that. That has been seen through some of the terrible implications to our public services and our health system and our education system that we have already discussed. This is an important matter of principle. It\u2019s not something that we do lightly. I just wanted to acknowledge some of those comments that the members on the other side of the House had in relation to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EOverall, this is a bill that we can\u2019t support, but at the same time we do recognise the hard work that has actually come about through not just this Government but also the previous Labour Government, and possibly even previous Governments to that, in working towards building better taxation systems. Not everything in a bill is always something that is bad. In this bill there are aspects that we support, and I think we really showed our good faith in that through the participation of\u2014as has been widely acknowledged around the House\u2014our resident tax expert, Dr Deborah Russell, who participated in good faith to make sure that although she didn\u2019t support wholeheartedly the purpose of the bill, she worked very hard to make sure that the changes within that are workable. That sometimes happens in this House. I think that we have set that out really clearly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI cannot commend this bill, but I want to acknowledge the work that has been done by others on the committee and through other parliaments in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd6ca36ea07e4232a05daeb2dfaa1a9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd6ca36ea07e4232a05daeb2dfaa1a9b\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s very telling what the last speaker Camilla Belich just said\u2014things like \u201CWe take a holistic approach.\u201D and \u201CTax reduction is all about timing.\u201D We actually felt that, after 14 years and a cost of living crisis, it was actually pretty good timing. But, no, that side of the House thinks Government knows best. That\u2019s why we\u2019re now having reforms with tertiary, hospital, tax\u2014just a mess everywhere we go, because they think Wellington knows best. Well, we like to give money back to the Kiwis that earn it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EOne thing that I haven\u2019t heard also is about FamilyBoost, which is another supportive mechanism. Some of the elements of it were ratified through this tax bill. In fact, one of the things I learnt, and you might learn too, sir, is that you can actually claim FamilyBoost for up to four years. If any family members haven\u2019t claimed\u2014sorry, Madam Speaker; not you personally, but anyone that wants to claim FamilyBoost can actually claim it for up to four years, such is the opportunity there, which really helps those lower and middle income families, as Cameron so aptly put before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EThere were over 100 tidy-ups in this bill. Given it is a second reading, it is important to reference the select committee process, and I just want to read some commentary from Deloitte which was published at the time: \u201CThe bill itself is less controversial than some of its predecessors as it largely contains taxpayer friendly measures aimed at reducing compliance costs and increasing productivity.\u201D For this reason, all Government parties and the Labour Party also voted in favour of the bill at the first reading, while the Green Party and Darleen Tana voted against the bill. Note, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori were not present to cast a vote, so there aren\u2019t many surprises there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EOne thing that was quite interesting with this is this bill touches on tax administration, GST, KiwiSaver, stamp and cheque duties, and income tax, and the great thing about KiwiSaver is those under 16 can now access it with only the consent of one parent or guardian, which is just awesome. We support it. That\u2019s a brilliant thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EThe other thing which I wouldn\u2019t want to go unnoticed was SPV, or special purpose vehicles. There was a bit of a tidy-up\u2014recommendations 65 to 68. We\u2019ve heard a lot about infrastructure and infrastructure funding and financing, and a lot of the entities that sit behind that are special purpose vehicles. It\u2019s very important that the tweaks such as \u201Chas received assets from a third party that is not a trust or has self-originated assets.\u201D\u2014those things were tidy-ups and it\u2019s wonderful, so I\u2019m pleased to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00227dcdbd72d9ca4fd8ae74344bd1d539ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dcdbd72d9ca4fd8ae74344bd1d539ec\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s interesting listening to the previous speaker, Ryan Hamilton, about how votes were cast at previous readings. That\u2019s part of this Parliament; part of the process is to litigate the issues and to vote yes sometimes. Then it moves through select committee, and then minds can be changed, as they should be, because it\u2019s not a binary decision from the first reading to the third reading. It\u2019s actually about looking at the issues and debating them, which this place is all about. I feel really comfortable with the fact that maybe at one stage a party has voted yes and now they\u2019re voting no, as we are here, because we on this side of the House and the Labour Party will not be supporting this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAs the spokesperson for economic development, it is really interesting to look into the taxation and what it means and then to hear the comments from the other side in terms of, you know, giving tax cuts and people\u2019s hard-earned money that they get to keep, which, of course\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d4ad60d0a16471c80b0118259ed6411\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: Great idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250e9754eea3e41748817607ba29764fa\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m just going to let\u2014if you let me continue my train of thought, which you\u2019re not even sure where I\u2019m going with this. The factors around economic development is something that is crucially important to the wellbeing of Aotearoa, and in terms of the challenges we have in this space, I believe it comes back to looking at the expectations that councils had, which has been removed from the current Government, which is around the wellbeings, because we\u2019ve got to look at this holistically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got to look at this not just in the ecosystem of economics and cash; we\u2019ve got to look at where it fits within our environmental, with our cultural, with our society. It is so important for us to be looking at taxation, not just taking money off people, but we\u2019ve got to rethink the narrative around that\u2014and they have their views and opinions; they\u2019re not even listening, which is fine by me\u2014because we need to talk and have better conversations around tax. We\u2019ve got to consider it as our contribution. We are members of society, and unless they were part of the 1980s Tory Government in the UK, we do believe in this country that society is something that we participate in, and participating in society is around paying our fair share to drive on our roads, to access our hospitals, to access our education system, to access the infrastructure needs that we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe challenge that the Labour Party has around this legislation is really seeing that the Government made some choices. They made some choices to give some tax cuts, but the challenge now is \u201CWhere do we find the money to ensure that our hospitals, to ensure that our schools, to ensure that our public transport is world class?\u201D That\u2019s where we really need to sit back and consider the conversation around tax, and not just that \u201CIt\u2019s mine. I\u2019ve got to keep every last penny, and I\u2019ve earned this. It\u2019s my right\u201D; it\u2019s around \u201CWhat is my contribution to my community, and what is my contribution to my neighbour?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI know that many people in the National Party that I meet with and talk with do believe in that. They believe that we as a society are judged by how we treat our most vulnerable, and being a member of the New Zealand society, being a New Zealand taxpayer, is around our contribution. As we look at this legislation, as it\u2019s been through the select committee process, there have been things from the Labour Party that we have looked at and said, \u201CWell, we just can\u2019t support this going any further forward.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI find it interesting, also, that in my community of New Plymouth, we look at what choices Government has made in terms of tax breaks, and then what things have had to be cut because of that. I was very passionate and very confident in the work that I had been doing around housing, which was something I did long before coming into this House, and then since being in this House, and the fact that we\u2019re able to get many new K\u0101inga Ora houses on the schedule to be built\u2014we got many built. In fact, just earlier, or just like last year, we had 48 new beautiful homes open in central New Plymouth. To see, then, the hard work that was done and investment made be cut\u2014to have the number of K\u0101inga Ora houses that were being built in my own city, to have that cut\u2014has been devastating not only for the community but for myself in terms of championing the causes, of getting everyone into a place that they can call home, because it is so important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWe can\u2019t support this beyond second reading. We want to work constructively with Government, and we can\u2019t support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022485a7507eaad4f9a8d35f78c66cac1d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022485a7507eaad4f9a8d35f78c66cac1d1\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Well, look, the irony, with a couple of minutes to go, of hearing from the spokesperson for economic development that he would oppose this bill. The best way to achieve economic development is actually to make sure hard-working people get to keep more of their hard-working dollars. Wellington does not know best, but people do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ELet me finish with a quote from the famous economist Milton Friedman, who, by the way, shares a birthday with my wife. Milton said, \u201CI am in favor of [tax cuts] under any circumstances for any \u2026 reason, whenever it\u2019s possible. Governments never learn. Only people [do].\u201D With that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b08bd866b54849f4857cfccdb91d0fc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b08bd866b54849f4857cfccdb91d0fc7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, it is time for the dinner break. The House is suspended until 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.57 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a430da927d1d4c8581009375bc311a4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a430da927d1d4c8581009375bc311a4e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is resumed. Before dinner, we were debating the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024\u201325, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill, and we are on call No. 11, which I believe is a Labour Party\u00A0call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1005fda55ed4795a2f772ad8b96daa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1005fda55ed4795a2f772ad8b96daa4\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much for the opportunity to stand and speak on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI reflect on a number of matters in this bill from my time as a Minister, and importantly, the ones around emergency events. I think it\u2019s a little known fact that only two Ministers in the history of this country\u2014if I recall correctly\u2014have actually signed a national declaration of emergency, and I know I was one of them. I was what was termed the Minister of Civil Defence at the time of the pandemic, and when we locked down the country, one of my key roles was to use the powers I had in the legislation to declare a national emergency. The pandemic itself was unique in so far as it\u2019s one every 100 years, I think it was, so it triggered a whole heap of other things that needed to happen to make sure that we could support New Zealanders, and that was about ensuring that where there were challenges around taxes or the ability to file\u2014businesses who were struggling. I do see some of the sense in making sure that we\u2019ve got a particular piece of work under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI know, when we were in power, we looked at how we might make things a little more streamlined, make it far more efficient. The fact of the matter remains, though, that emergency events are different, just by the fact of the types of emergency events that happen in New Zealand. Through my time, I can say I\u2019ve dealt with two fires, three floods, a pandemic, a volcanic eruption, and there was one more I was trying to think of\u2014oh, no, I wasn\u2019t quite there when the Kaik\u014Dura earthquakes hit, but I remember there was a lot of apprehension around those emergency events that happened in New Zealand. The point here is making sure that the tax system is able to respond when it needs to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOverall, and underlining much of what we talk about in tax, is the tax policy and its overall intent\u2014what it looks to do to support New Zealanders. While there are parts of this bill that I can reflect upon, as I mentioned in emergency stakes, overall, ultimately, what we can\u2019t accept is that we would change a tax policy\u2014and we opposed the tax changes that this Government did in last year\u2019s Budget, because we believe it didn\u2019t actually provide the kinds of support that New Zealanders deserve. At the time, New Zealanders were sold something that said you could get up to $250 a week back through the tax cuts being proposed by this Government, yet reality tells us that in our communities, that isn\u2019t the case. Just overall, this tax policy from this Government is something we can\u2019t support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAs I mentioned, there are some things\u2014and that\u2019s just by virtue of the experience I\u2019ve had as a Minister to try and make sure that tax works for our people, because, for the most part, people don\u2019t understand how tax works or doesn\u2019t work for them. Most people will sit back and just expect it to happen to them, and that\u2019s certainly the case in a lot of the communities that I\u2019ve represented in my years here in Parliament, and I reflect on some of those communities, like the ones that were impacted by significant emergency events\u2014so it just sort of happens to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve mentioned, the Labour Party made it very clear that we didn\u2019t support the work that this Government was doing overall on tax because we didn\u2019t feel that it actually supported Kiwis how they\u2019d hoped, how the Government promised it would, and how we hoped on this side of the House it might, and it just simply didn\u2019t. What we\u2019ve seen from this Government over the last year\u2014at least\u2014is more changes to see those who are worse off have less, and those who are well-off actually get to save a lot more of their money for themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow, when we look at such omnibus or big bills like this, we look towards the detail. As I mentioned with regards to the emergency stakes, there is some good stuff there. For some of the other things, though\u2014and there were some expressions throughout the Finance and Expenditure Committee process that showed concerned around the Privacy Commissioner and their view about the sharing of information. In light of a number of events that have happened over the past 12 months, it\u2019s important that people\u2019s data, people\u2019s personal information, continue to be protected and have the kind of apparatus around it to give confidence in the public institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESimply having quite a liberal approach, if you will, to the way that information is shared\u2014with other agencies, or what have you\u2014should always bring questions about it from all members of this House as we look towards the work that we do to support our constituents. As I\u2019ve mentioned, there have been a number of challenges with data and with data security, and I suspect that those challenges will only continue to grow when we look at the big challenges with the protection of data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI can recall one time, in one of my previous roles as an associate health Minister, the health system came under huge cyber-attacks, and significant amounts of data was challenged and was compromised. It\u2019d be easy for New Zealand to say, \u201CWell, we\u2019re a small country, we should be able to secure it.\u201D Well, the way that it worked was it was so broken up into different parts that there was no way actually that we could have protected that data. Simply having a provision in this bill that looks towards an easier stream or share of data, without the kind of analysis on the systems that I\u2019ve been privy to in my previous roles as a Minister in different portfolios, must always bring questions about in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe fact that the Privacy Commissioner in their submission and in their advice that they gave to the committee highlighted that is, I think, one of the things that need to be said on the record here, to make sure that the New Zealand public take their data and their information as something serious, and that we continue to grow the kind of confidence that New Zealanders expect when they think about their own personal information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOn top of that, there are a number of other smaller things that it attempts to do\u2014looking at offshore superannuation accounts and the ability to look towards tax support or provisions there. Ultimately, though, when I think about that particular provision, I think about what actually needs to happen on a bigger scale as we look towards the way that people travel between countries and the arrangements that we have with these countries, because I\u2019m sure most electorate MPs, or those that support constituents, have constituents that come into their office to talk about their super that currently sits in another country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow, I accept that some of them are countries that we would never have an arrangement with that would allow them access or to bring those super funds here, or, you know, something that\u2019s more favourable to them, but for others, they do have questions. I recall just recently jumping in an Uber here in Wellington and the Uber driver, a scientist sadly laid off by a number of the cuts the Government made, but none the less a lovely wahine who is German, her and her t\u0101ne\u2014her and her husband\u2014had constant battles with the law, with Inland Revenue, as they looked towards their super that they had offshore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow, my point here is we can tinker around the edges on these things, but, ultimately, there\u2019s going to have to be something far more substantive to make sure that those who are impacted by these matters around overseas super\u2014the ability to access, the ability to transfer, and even the sharing of information around those particular superannuation schemes must be something that\u2019s looked at (1) with considerable competency, but (2) with a considerable view to the entire superannuation package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why, on this side of the House, I\u2019ll reiterate the point: the devil is in the detail, but we can tinker with the tax system as much as we want and we can always change little bits here and there on the edges, but, ultimately, what the country deserves is a tax system that is clear, is transparent, is easy to understand, and is something that the country and the public have the ability to have a clear eye across and a say on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOn a number of these matters\u2014because there are a lot of matters in this bill\u2014I feel the public are in the dark. I don\u2019t know if they\u2019ve actually been consulted or whether or not it\u2019s just something that\u2019s driven out of Wellington. I think of the family tax credit, which just in recent days a number of stories in the media have highlighted around shortcomings of how this Government is managing the family tax credit scenario and complicating it for more and more Kiwis who rely on those types of matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe can\u2019t support this bill despite there being some parts in there that were started under our Government. Ultimately, if this Government wants to get it right, they\u2019ve got to make sure that tax works for New Zealanders instead of the other way around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u002275a31e06b57c48b78078733533c29c59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275a31e06b57c48b78078733533c29c59\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m very proud to be standing, as the last speaker, to support the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024\u201325, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill at the second reading. I think it\u2019s time to make it clear now, after the 11 speakers before me, who spoke about the different parts in this bill: yes, it is a giant bill, in the way that it includes so many hundreds of changes. There are many, in media responses and also in experts\u2019 responses, with experts having to look into the different categories to really understand the areas that they are interested in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003EI guess, as the last speaker on this bill, it is very important for me just to summarise for everyone who has turned on their TV right now, and also summarise all of the speakers above me, the key messages that this bill is really doing. It is a bill to ensure that the New Zealand tax system is efficient, is fair, and is also fit for purpose. For what? For who? For the ever rapidly changing New Zealand economy and tax system for all New Zealanders, and all of us sitting in this House, this side or the opposite side, are lawmakers in New Zealand trying to make laws\u2014for who? For New Zealanders. All that we are doing here is making sure that our tax system\u2014our revenue system\u2014is reflective of what New Zealanders need on a day-by-day basis so that they can get on with making money, making progress, and making things work for their family. I think it is very important to actually look into the community, to look into the economy, on what people think this bill is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003ENow, I have to quote one of the big four accounting firms, Deloitte\u2014and there are many more, and I have worked for some of them, so I respect the level of expertise that they have in their firms\u2014and I have to quote this, which I particularly like: \u201CThe Bill itself is less controversial tha[n] some of its predecessors as it largely contains taxpayer friendly measures aimed at reducing compliance costs and increasing productivity.\u201D This is exactly what the National Government is doing. We are talking about cutting red tape, so therefore reducing compliance costs. We are talking about growth for New Zealand, which is about increasing productivity. This is why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bda5a508198f42a4988b803e3bd31506\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024\u201325, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000614\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e4c45dc1fb04741bdf9062956839ae3\u0022\u003ERegulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e4c45dc1fb04741bdf9062956839ae3\u0022\u003ERegulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227eaad6de424743198f2aef7a141b8e2d\u0022\u003ESecond Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9b3e0b820254ae6a46835b699774757\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9b3e0b820254ae6a46835b699774757\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Economic Growth: I present legislative statements on the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220420474ede5749acbc0ebebcca3ca437\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Those legislative statements are published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245687860b7454a16bbdcf7bdaaa7bcdf\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThese bills are omnibus bills introduced with the agreement of the Business Committee to make changes to legislation administered by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2014MBIE. These bills are about good regulatory practice, keeping legislation up to date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EContinuously reviewing and amending legislation is an important contributor to having well-designed regulatory settings that provide the foundation for economic growth. Each change made by these bills is small by itself, but collectively the changes will reduce compliance burden and red tape, fix known problems with legislation, clarify unclear provisions and remove redundant provisions, allow legislation to adapt to changing information and technology, and ensure that people are getting their intended entitlements and regulatory protection. Because the bills have similar purposes, the Business Committee also agreed that they can be considered together by this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EMBIE is one of the largest regulatory agencies, being responsible for around 140 pieces of legislation across a wide range of subjects. Some of this legislation is very old and may have been amended many times, which can mean that aspects are out of date or that it has become difficult to understand and administer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EBetween them, these bills amend 31 Acts and associated regulations administered by MBIE. The economic development bill amends 24 Acts and associated regulations across five portfolios: commerce and consumer affairs; science, innovation and technology; media and communications; justice; and energy. The immigration and workforce bill amends seven Acts, and amends and revokes associated regulations across three portfolios: immigration, workplace relations and safety, and energy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EIn keeping with the broad range of MBIE responsibilities, the amendments in the bills do several things. They tidy up unclear definitions and ambiguous language. They make it easier for registrars to correct inaccurate information on the registers they administer. They facilitate the use of electronic means to provide information to regulators, and for regulators to provide notifications and maintain registers. They also provide for certain types of deeds to be signed electronically. They remove redundant requirements to provide information, file reports, and renew notices that are always renewed in practice. They correct inadvertent errors in a couple of recently passed Acts: the Electricity Industry Amendment Act 2022 and the Plant Variety Rights Act 2022. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThey facilitate the implementation of international mutual recognition schemes that allow managed funds based in one country to be offered more easily to investors in other countries, like the Asia Region Funds Passport. They provide for collaboration between the Commerce Commission and the Financial Markets Authority on matters involving unfair contract terms and contracts relating to financial services or products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThey ensure that people get their intended entitlements to paid parental leave in certain circumstances. They also allow ACC to issue a single invoice to cover ACC and health and safety at work levies, which will reduce the health and safety at work levy, on average, by $20 per year for the ACC clients it applies to. They allow the ministry for energy to approve dedicated electricity and gas safety instruments to keep technical regulatory requirements up to date. And, finally, they strengthen aspects of the regulation of immigration advisers. Being represented by an unqualified or an unscrupulous immigration adviser can impose significant costs on a visa applicant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe economic development bill has been considered by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, and the immigration workforce bill has been considered by the Education and Workforce Committee. I\u2019d like to thank the submitters who took time\u00A0to\u00A0make written and oral submissions on the bills and to thank the committees for their careful consideration of the bills. The committees have recommended that the bills be passed with a few amendments, which I agree with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI want to draw attention to some of the committees\u2019 recommendations. The Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee has recommended some additional amendments to the Telecommunications Act 2001, proposed by the Minister for Media and\u00A0Communications. These amendments address the expiry of rights of access to shared property for low- and medium-impact fibre installations. The rights that expired on 1\u00A0January 2025 will be reinstated for three years while a review is carried out that considers the long-term\u00A0future of the issue. This will continue to support New Zealanders getting access to high-speed broadband.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe committee has recommended some amendments to electricity regulations. These amendments are a consequence of changes in the bill, relating to regulation of specified persons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe committee also recommended removing a proposed requirement that a building society must have 70 percent of its depositories by number and value of deposits living in New Zealand. This requirement is not necessary because other amendments to the Building Societies Act 1965 will ensure that building societies have a substantive New Zealand presence to be registered here. The committee has agreed with submitters that there should be a transition period of six months to allow organisations affected by the proposed changes to the Financial Reporting Act 2013 to adjust to the new requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe Education and Workforce Committee has recommended several changes to the provisions that amend the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act. These changes make the provisions for complaints about immigration advisers more accessible to complainants, clearly convey that those subject to a tribunal order can seek to have that order lifted or varied, clarify that the tribunal or the Registrar of Immigration Advisers can determine whether specified conditions have been met, and clarify that certain information may no longer be required for the purpose of the register of immigration advisers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThese bills are an increasingly important tool for regulatory agencies to keep the legislation they administer up to date. Collectively, the amendments in these bills will make a difference to the people regulated by, and who benefit from, the amended Acts. The amendments will also allow the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment to operate more efficiently and effectively. I commend these bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002259a188dbf8da47dc947e0e8928575977\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259a188dbf8da47dc947e0e8928575977\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c87bfa7fc94f435a97e68e48d805f261\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c87bfa7fc94f435a97e68e48d805f261\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker, and thank you for this opportunity to speak on this legislation. It\u2019s interesting\u2014this Parliament moves in mysterious ways. This legislation came into the House under the guidance of the Hon Melissa Lee and it comes back into the House under the guidance of the Hon Nicola Willis, and so, yes, a lot changes in a select committee stage that moves things forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to speak because, obviously, the way this has been put together there is the economic development side, and then there\u2019s employment and the side around immigration, so let me just gather my thoughts. We do support this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffb29194125a41f6ad3461980ae65750\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s good news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253c7fcab251642ec94393ae25ece7602\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014as it continues on, and it is good news because it\u2019s simple, it\u2019s pragmatic, and back in 2012, I believe, some changes were made to allow this sort of tidy-up and fix-up of Acts of Parliament to modernise and to ensure that they meet their current requirements and purposes; simple things like electronic and online use, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI want to speak for a moment about the proposed amendments around the Building Societies Act 1965. That\u2019s a classic example of how legislation in this House works. That was done long before I was born and, of course, the world has moved on and has changed and New Zealand society has moved on and has changed. Within the original bill\u2014this is the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill\u2014and then coming back to the House, we look at clause 26, which would insert new section 13(2)(b) to require that 70 percent by number and value of depositors to the building society be New Zealand residents. As a result of these requirements from the building societies and Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), we recommend that, actually, this be removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI was a bit concerned about that because I felt that, as we have moved forward as a society and as we become far more multicultural and international, the challenge for us as a society is obviously ensuring that building societies retain New Zealand ownership and a connection to us. It\u2019s something that we can live with, and I know through the select committee process there was discussion, and the reason it was taken out was the fact that submitters made it clear that there was some fish-hooks and ongoing consequences of that. Therefore, again, seeing the parliamentary process at work, seeing that at work, where it comes into the House in a certain form, the select committee does the work that the select committee does, which is, of course, being informed by the voice of New Zealanders to move that on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThis bill, as I said, is technical. For some of us it might seem a little bit boring because it is just trying to deal and move through different parts of what has been. I want to also commend, in terms of the process that we go through, the staff at MBIE. Now, it is a huge organisation in terms of the portfolios and the work that is put on their plate, but the fact that we have such good officials and staff who actually look after MBIE\u2014and in terms of this legislation, they are able to guide, inform the select committee. But also, obviously, that consultation, which is such a gift in New Zealand\u2014even though we get frustrated and even though things don\u2019t always go our way, and even though sometimes we wished and hoped that people would do what I say or what people say\u2014means that, actually, in this situation, things can be talked through, can be sifted through, and we can find pragmatic solutions to the issues at hand in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe Charitable Trusts Act 1957 is also something that this bill is looking at, and it\u2019s around just, again, simplifying in terms of the fact that nowadays we have not only physical addresses but electronic addresses that need to be considered, and just those sorts of things are things that we need to move through quickly, just so that we can be in the 21st century; it\u2019s very simple. This is non-controversial, I believe, in terms of where we stand; we will be supporting it. More of my colleagues will be speaking on the other elements of the bill as we go through the second reading, but from my perspective and from our perspective, we support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b74f32e72baa4e4d852e6925cd747844\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b74f32e72baa4e4d852e6925cd747844\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. On behalf of the\u00A0Greens, we continue to support the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill, as well as the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAs others have noted, we\u2019ve seen a change of Ministers who are shepherding this legislation, and I want to acknowledge the work of the select committees in charge of this legislation, particularly because, as the previous speaker, Glen Bennett, noted, it is technical legislation. It actually touches on a broad range of issues, so that requires some technical advice as well on behalf of the different public servants who were guiding us through these\u00A0bills. I also want to thank the people who have submitted on this legislation. There weren\u2019t many, but I think many of them added really valuable contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll start with the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill. As members have noted, this one touches on, for example, the Electricity Act 1992, the Employment Relations Act 2000, the Gas Act 1992, the Health and Safety at Work Act 2015, the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007, the Mines Rescue Act 2013, and the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Act 1987. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI did want to talk on the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007 changes. We did have some submitters who were calling on us to look at the changes that were made in this particular space. If we look at what was changed, it touched on issues, for example, around whether Immigration New Zealand could decline or refuse to accept applications or requests from unlicensed immigration advisers where they have been automatically accepted by an electronic system in error. It also touched on issues like removing a 12month stand-down period preventing former Immigration New Zealand officers from being licensed as immigration advisers, and a two-year stand-down period preventing them from being employed by the Immigration Advisers Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI think on that particular point there was a good discussion\u2014and noted by submitters on considerations about, for example, whether somebody who had been working at Immigration New Zealand would have, I guess, a competitive advantage or privileged knowledge that would set them apart from their peers. I think there were some parallels being drawn to, for example, the conversations we\u2019ve been having around whether former Ministers should be able to become lobbyists or whether there should be a grace period. I think there were some distinctions being drawn around the types of services that, for example, immigration advisers in this case would be providing to clients. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThere were some contributions around the fact that, actually\u2014and even from talking to people outside of this space around the benefits of actually having people who understood the ins and outs of Immigration New Zealand then being able to be equipped with the tools to then guide people through what is actually a really complicated process. There is a reason why the work of immigration advisers took a lot of the time at the select committee, and that is because we do have right now the reality where our immigration systems are so complicated to access, because we have built an immigration system that actually is disconnected in the sense of it being really hard to access by migrants when it comes to getting, for example, a real human face on the other side of the phone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWhat we do have is a profession that is now needed more and more often. There are some challenging conversations we needed to have. One of those at the select committee that was brought forward by submitters was the opportunity to look at how unlicensed people were providing advice from offshore, so those like offshore agents, for example. That\u2019s something that I do think needs more work. I can accept that perhaps it would have sat outside of the scope of what we were looking at in the bill, but I think when we were asked to look at this\u2014and particularly the changes to the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act\u2014this is something that was encouraged to us to pay attention to, because there is that reality that no matter how\u00A0much you resource a profession domestically, what you have inevitably is a range of people offshore who are providing often not robust advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe downfall of having that coming to the immigration advisers, I\u2019m sure, is that you end up with people who\u2019ve paid a lot of money and have been given the wrong advice, and that\u2019s to the detriment of the profession locally and also the migrants here. If we look at Part 5 in terms of the amendments to the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007, that\u2019s one of the\u2014and I can see Mr Speaker is probably trawling through the papers to see which bits I\u2019m referring to, but rest assured, I\u2019ve got the paper in front of me\u2014areas of particular interest to me, but also to our stakeholders and submitters. That\u2019s one of the key areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge Camilla Belich, who was also quite an active contributor at the select committee, particularly more on the issues to the other parts that are being changed on the Employment Relations Act. I think there was a bit of a tag team going on in terms of our areas of interest. I think this is particularly important in these regulatory systems bills because they do touch on such broad areas that it does require actually us putting our brains together and our areas of expertise into good use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI will also note, like others said, that despite the sort of robust contributions they had from submitters, there weren\u2019t issues that were massively controversial. Most of them that were part of the different amendments in this legislation were often about modernising our legislation and ensuring that it is up to date. We accept that, but at the same time, I think the Government should be ambitious that sometimes there are opportunities to modernise legislation and actually go beyond that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAs I mentioned earlier, when it came to immigration advisers, if we\u2019re getting the feedback that there is more that we need to do that sits within this sort of like non-controversial space of regulatory systems, that energy should be put in to address these issues. I hope that the Government takes the contributions of submitters and doesn\u2019t let them just kind of enter into a void where nothing else happens, but rather that those contributions are then taken to address other issues as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EFinally, I\u2019ll just touch on a reflection, which is that I remember when the previous Minister at the time came to present to the select committee on a public hearing, there was, I guess, a bit of journalistic attention to her presentation. I do want to reflect that as many of us struggle to grapple with the technicalities of this bill, I wouldn\u2019t want to harshly judge the former Minister for her presentation at the time, even if I know that there were prying eyes on her when she was presenting. I think this is an opportunity for us to realise that, as many others have spoken, we MPs rely on the public sector to often also help inform us on how legislation will impact our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis is why we need a well-resourced public sector so that we can get the best advice possible on, for example, technical bills such as these ones. I think bills like these also help continue sparking a conversation about whether the number of MPs that we have in this place is actually fit for purpose to then handle incredibly technical pieces of legislation when we have increasing demands to meet in terms of a growing population. With that, I\u2019ll end my contribution and hope that this debate continues to be constructive for the remainder of the debate and its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u00226102d2e276da41d0a177ca2fd7fa7707\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226102d2e276da41d0a177ca2fd7fa7707\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of ACT and ACT is supporting both the bills, which are being debated together. I think it\u2019s a good idea to debate these bills together, because both bills are associated and are actually channelling towards economic development. When we talk about workforce, when we talk about immigration, that is all about economic development as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EIn the select committee process, we received submissions, and I would say that based on my experience of numbers of submissions that we receive on various bills and the contributions that were made by submitters during their oral presentation of their submission, these bills are definitely non-controversial bills, and it\u2019s really good to see that other parties are supporting these two bills going forward as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EIt was really good to be on both select committees which considered these bills. As we have heard from members, those who contributed previously, the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill was referred to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, which I chair, and the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill was referred to the Education and Workforce Committee, so it was good to see how the bills went through the select committee process. Based on those observations, I can say that this bill makes some minor and technical changes and even in the\u00A0select committee process, the changes that we made to these two bills\u00A0are quite minor and\u00A0technical. There wasn\u2019t anything that was controversial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EAs Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March mentioned before, there were some contributions which were not in the scope of this legislation. For example, he mentioned the stand-down period for those who come from backgrounds like working in Immigration New Zealand, the Ministry for Primary Industries, the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), or if somebody is a Minister of Immigration\u2014the stand-down period for them to become a licensed immigration adviser. Those kinds of things came through, but they were not in the scope of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003ENow, going forward, as I\u2019ve said, the changes that we made in the select committee to these bills\u2014because these two bills overall are quite simple and technical kinds of changes just to make sure that our systems are working efficiently. Each bill is amending a large number of Acts. For example, the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill amends 24 Acts, and most of these Acts amended in both of these bills are administered by MBIE. Just to give an example to substantiate that the changes that the select committee made to these two bills were actually minor, I would pick the same field\u2014that is, immigration, and the complaints against immigration advisers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWe know that immigration is an important area not only for those who come from overseas to contribute here and to have a new start for themselves as well but also for everybody who is here. We want to see that our immigration system is fair for everybody. The complaints system for immigration advisers is an important system, and section 44 of the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007 sets out how complaints against immigration advisers are made. Clause 32 of the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill amends section 44 of the Act to update the requirements for written complaints. We wanted to make sure that the complaint process is fair for people, those who want to make a complaint, those who have concerns, and we wanted to see that if they do not recall a particular kind of detail, they are not obstructed from proceeding with their complaint process. This is one example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EJust very quickly\u2014as we know, both bills are non-controversial and I don\u2019t want to take too much of our House\u2019s time, as this time is really important\u2014another example is the Employment Relations Act 2000. Section 64 sets out an employer\u2019s obligation to retain a copy of an individual employment agreement, individual terms and conditions, or intended agreement. In this, the change that we made in the select committee was basically to clarify that the copy should be held not only by the employee but employer as well, and it should be readily available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThese are the kinds of changes that we\u2019ve made in the select committee, basically just wanting to make sure that the intention of the changes that these two bills are making are clearer and they are fairer for the sides that we are dealing with. There are always two sides to things when we are dealing with some legislation, and we want to make sure that the changes are fairer for both. With that, I would say that the ACT Party supports these two bills and commends these two bills to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a16e0e4f87664210a8754ebfeda55ad9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a16e0e4f87664210a8754ebfeda55ad9\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First in support of both the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill. I was fortunate to be on the select committee of the economic development bill, and it was actually quite an experience, I must admit, because there was so much technical knowledge coming across our desk. We really did have to think. I\u2019m very grateful that the submitters were very invested in this piece of legislation and they gave us very detailed pieces of work as far as the submissions go, and I\u2019d like to share just a few of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EBeing an accountant in a past life, I was very interested to see some of the changes that were coming through in the audit and finance side of things. Back in my day when I was a young auditor, we had big suitcases of paper that we carried around. Now here we are doing legislation to amend electronic signatures, for example, which back in my day would never have happened. Things have changed; that is why we need this sort of legislation. It\u2019s a bit like repairs and maintenance, you may say, of a whole group of legislation. It\u2019s one way of doing it efficiently and effectively. I kind of liken it to me doing my clear-out of my pantry every couple of years. I find all of the things that have expired or that I no longer use and replace them or update everything. In a way, this is what we\u2019re doing with these bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EWith regards to the economic development bill, we had 18 submitters\u2014not a lot, but they all gave very detailed explanations of why and what they were doing. They were quite wide and varied. As an example, we had a lawyer who specialised in charities law who gave her opinion on definitions and wording. She was very technical and very detailed in the information that she gave on why, and she was very focused and wanted to ensure she came in and gave that orally\u2014that particular submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EWe had a submission from a big legal firm. They, for example, made their comment on audit fees and why some big public companies, known as large companies, are forced to incur costs of up to $100,000 when they do audits. There were certain loopholes there that these firms that are very specialised came in to explain to us in detail. A financial services organisation came in and spoke of the importance of having the electronic signatures now. At times like during the COVID period, we couldn\u2019t do things like that\u2014they needed to be introduced temporarily\u2014but now it is being introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003ELook, New Zealand First believe in cutting red tape, doing things efficiently and effectively, and having that mix of common sense in every decision that we make. We feel that these bills will provide the clarity and streamline the processes, so we will commend both of these bills to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d260935366a046948741aa2e2d9b447a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d260935366a046948741aa2e2d9b447a\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato): \u003C/span\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i te p\u014D nei. Ka kore au e toroa i taku k\u014Drero i te p\u014D nei, engari hei p\u0101nui ko te katoa o t\u014Dku kauwhau i te p\u014D nei ka reo M\u0101ori, \u0101, n\u0101 runga an\u014D i te mea mai i mea mai t\u0113tehi, i mea mai ki ahau, e rua wiki ki muri, k\u0101ti te p\u0101nui i \u014Dku pepa, n\u0101 reira ehara au i te tangata tino matatau ki te reo P\u0101keh\u0101, n\u0101 reira ka reo M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u0100e, ko t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire, ng\u0113nei pire e rua, ar\u0101 ko te Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill, ka tahi, ka rua ko te Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EKo ng\u0113nei pire e rua, ahakoa t\u0101 r\u0101ua moroiti he \u0101hua ko ng\u0101 wahanga i t\u0113nei ka panoni. K\u0101ore i te mea ka panoni i te horopaki o ng\u0101 ture ka whai i roto i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101, i ng\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EKo \u0113tahi o ng\u0101 pire, o ng\u0101 ture, aroha mai, ka whai p\u0113hitanga ki ng\u0101, ki te tau p\u0101tata atu nei ki te 2013, tae atu ki te 1957, n\u0101 reira ko ng\u0101 rautau ki muri nei. Ko te tino p\u016Btake o t\u0113nei, o ng\u0113nei pire e rua, ko te whakawhanake ake i ng\u0113nei o ng\u0101 ture, ka nui ng\u0101 ture ka whai p\u0113hitanga ng\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire e rua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EN\u0101 reira, ko tana p\u016Btake ko te whakawhanake ki te ao anamata, ki t\u0113nei rangi tonu. Waihoki, hei tauira, hei t\u0101piri atu ki ng\u0101 panonitanga o te w\u0101 p\u0113nei i te ao hangarau. Ar\u0101 atu noa ng\u0101 horopaki o te ao hangarau ka p\u0113hi ki a t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei w\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira e mihi kau ana ki te komiti whakahaere n\u0101 koutou an\u014D i wherawhera, i \u0101ta w\u0101nanga i ng\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire e rua. M\u0101 te ohu pakihi an\u014D hoki e k\u014Dkiri whakamua, ka ono marama m\u0101 r\u0101tou e whai ki te w\u0101nanga, ki te \u0101ta wherawhera, waihoki ki te whai h\u0101neaneatanga ki ng\u0113nei pire e rua. N\u0101 reira m\u0101 ng\u0101 ohu katoa ka whai p\u0113hitanga ki ng\u0113nei pire. Engari ka nui ng\u0101 ture ka whai p\u0113hitanga, \u0101e.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EN\u0101 reira ko ng\u0113nei pire e rua, ahakoa t\u0101 r\u0101ua moroiti, panoni \u0101hua, ko t\u0101na p\u016Btake ko te whakawhanake i \u0113tehi o ng\u0101 ture. N\u0101 reira, \u0101e, e tautoko katoatia ana e Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i ng\u0113nei pire e rua. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Greetings to the Speaker, and indeed to us all in the House. I stand to convey the statements for Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori tonight. I won\u2019t speak for long tonight but will read the entirety of my speech tonight in te reo M\u0101ori, and that is because someone said to me, two weeks ago, stop reading my papers, and so I\u2019m not extremely competent in English; therefore, I will speak M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EYes, these two bills, namely the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development Amendment) Bill, firstly, and secondly, the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill. These two bills, despite being small, there are some aspects that the sections of these will\u00A0change. It\u2019s not as if they will change the context of the laws which are included in these bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ESome of the bills, of the laws, sorry, have effect from the year close to 2013, and back to 1957, therefore previous centuries. The key reason for these two bills is to update these laws; many laws are impacted by these two bills. Therefore, its purpose is to update for the future world, to this very day. Furthermore, as an example, to add the changes over time such as modern technology. There are many technological contexts which currently affect us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ETherefore I acknowledge the select committee who opened up and carefully discussed these two bills. The business group will also carry it forward; they have six months to discuss, deliberate, and furthermore to become comfortable with these two bills. Therefore, all the groups will have an impact on these bills. Indeed there are many laws which will be affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThus, these two bills, despite being small, and changing aspects, their purpose is to improve some of the laws. Therefore, yes, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori fully supports these two bills. Thank you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5a7b1d3125e4de58386f9f8f4ff6598\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5a7b1d3125e4de58386f9f8f4ff6598\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party also in support of these two particular bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAs many of the previous speakers have mentioned, both of these two regulatory systems bills are sort of technical fixes on a largely ever-changing system in order for us to be able to continue ensuring that the system works as intended and is updated both in terms of the latest technology and the latest understanding. Like many would understand and appreciate, the way that we construct primary legislation in this particular House requires this House to actually make those kinds of changes to the law, so the regulatory systems bills are an important element of our legislative infrastructure and process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn saying that, these two bills\u2014one of them the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and\u00A0Workforce) Amendment Bill and the other one, the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill\u2014were reviewed by two separate select committees, one by the Education and Workforce Committee and the other by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. Again, I want to echo the previous speakers in thanking those committee members for the work that they\u2019ve done in order to get the bills through the select committee and to the House for second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn terms of my comment, I think I would like to start first with the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill and part of that regulatory system. Granted, there are other important amendments here in terms of the amendments to the Electricity Act and also the Gas Act in terms of the updating of provisions and safety around equipment safety, particularly from a workplace health and safety perspective, but I think, like many, one of the things I would like to focus on is the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007. I think, as we heard from some of the speakers, although it\u2019s really, really important that we have allowed us to have a much more, I guess, improved process for making complaints and also for requests from unlicensed immigration advisers, one of the things that we must address is in terms of what do we do in the context of unlicensed immigration advisers offshore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, as you would appreciate, when we are looking at immigration advisers, particularly those who are registered with the Immigration Advisers Authority\u2014IAA\u2014there are certain provisions that we need to put in place, but one of the things we are seeing to be a continuous loophole in this particular element is around the requirement for offshore advisers, particularly for student visas, to have a licence and registration, and also in terms of accountability to Aotearoa when it comes to supporting international students as part of their international education journey. This is something that we\u2019ve seen in other countries like Australia that have addressed that particular loophole. Offshore advisers for student visas must be registered with an Australian authority, but it is, as far as my understanding, still not entirely the case here in Aotearoa, and I think that is something that we could potentially see improvements on further down the track when it comes to the accountability of immigration advisers overall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill, I think one of the key focuses in this area\u2014and, like I mentioned, there are many other things that have been mentioned, but I think one of the things that I echo in terms of the submission done by the Regulations Review Committee is around the ability for the Regulations Review Committee to actually be able to scrutinise as part of the bill as well. Again, Mr Speaker, as you would appreciate, when we\u2019re looking at a regulatory systems bill, one of the key functions of that and one of the key sort of, I guess, ways that our primary and secondary legislation operate is that within this piece of primary legislation, it also touches on a lot of secondary legislation as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think in particular when we\u2019re looking at Amendment Papers to incorporate from the Minister for Media and Communications and amendments to the Telecommunications Act, one of the requests that was made\u2014and I think this is continuously a reminder for us\u2014is how we can incorporate the whole thing. But, with that, we support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u00224a7ab64f78c748ecbd14348dbca40fdd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a7ab64f78c748ecbd14348dbca40fdd\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Who are we mere mortals from the Finance and Expenditure Committee to argue with the decisions and the work done by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on this Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill. Can I just remind the House that that committee has reviewed the bill conscientiously, diligently, and has recommended it be passed with all amendments unanimously. For those tuning in to Parliament TV at the very exciting end of the night, this is an omnibus bill that amends 24 Acts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e944d1ef64c24aa0ac7537dc781ece95\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236dd28150cc64a8f83f9051897c8db59\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER\u003C/span\u003E: And, Mr Bidois, I am happy to read out those 24 Acts of statute\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022144929f555b54f8a89a3d7361142a104\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: No, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022157c0dd6c58b4fd8851569fefe31774a\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but Mr MacLeod has said no, thank you. They are available on the parliamentary website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EThis is an omnibus bill amending 24 Acts of Parliament. It is part of our regulatory systems bill framework. It\u2019s aimed at making technical and regulatory improvements across multiple sectors in a timely and cost-effective manner. If you\u2019re still interested, it\u2019s all on the parliamentary website. In the meantime, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022df60c40ca82f4103b7e5b47933c4ddf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df60c40ca82f4103b7e5b47933c4ddf4\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Sparks are really flying in the House tonight! [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8d71de1cf3945f29c28177865f21474\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I know\u2014I know! [Interruption] Calm down, everybody\u2014calm down!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fac489aca58740b0ab8e6dd0e6b7e289\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: One of the more hotly contested bills we\u2019ve had to consider! I serve on the Education and Workforce Committee. It\u2019s my privilege to review bills like\u00A0this very exciting omnibus legislation that the member who spoke before, Cameron Brewer, described. I wanted to just make, in my contribution, a couple of brief comments about the part of the bill that deals with amendments to the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act. These bills are really just kind of legislative housekeeping, and in this case they allow\u00A0a\u00A0number of different regulatory Acts to be fine-tuned so that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, the Government department that is responsible for administering this particular clutch of laws, has an easier job of administering and carrying out its task.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI wanted to first just say a little bit about the context around licensed immigration advisers and why it\u2019s important that the regulatory framework actually works and can be administered. As Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March commented before, we\u2019ve built an immigration system that is complex, and often, for migrants and people who are trying to navigate that immigration system, it\u2019s a very tough ask. They\u2019re often people who, in many cases, may not have English as their first language; they may not be schooled in the ways of New Zealand bureaucracy and actually working their way through the Immigration Act, and the whole system of immigration can be very challenging. They go looking for support; they go looking for advice from people who have experience and expertise to help them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI\u2019m one of those members in this House that does a lot of immigration advocacy in my work as a local MP and, having been an Associate Minister, I have a particular kind of interest in the way our immigration system works. Hardly a week would go by without someone coming to my office, seeking assistance and seeking immigration advice, who hasn\u2019t fallen foul of an unlicensed immigration adviser who has given them bad advice, who\u2019s often taken\u00A0large amounts of money off them, and who might have their passport sitting in a cupboard with 300 other passports in their spare room. This is not uncommon. These, often rogue, unlicensed immigration advisers wreak havoc with some very vulnerable members of our community who are trying to make sense and do their best, for instance, to regularise their status or apply for a particular visa. It\u2019s really important that the regulatory framework works; that it\u2019s able to weed out, detect, and appropriately punish people who break the law, unlicensed advisers who give advice. There\u2019s a really strong public interest that this works well. There are a number of classes of people who are exempt from these requirements. Members of Parliament happen to be one of them; lawyers are another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe bill makes a number of amendments. Some of them are quite small. For example, it enables Immigration New Zealand to decline or refuse to accept applications from unlicensed immigration advisers where they\u2019ve already been automatically accepted by an electronic system in error. There\u2019s a list\u2014and I won\u2019t go through them\u2014of very small nuances where the regulations are just having the kinks ironed out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EOne of the more substantive discussions about this section of the bill that we had was the question of removing the 12-month stand-down period preventing former staff of Immigration New Zealand from being licensed as immigration advisers. A couple of colleagues have already made reference to this\u2014when the Act was passed back in 2007, there was a view that people who\u2019d worked for Immigration New Zealand might have been privy to inside information or have relationships, friendships with colleagues who were still working for the department that might give them an unfair advantage commercially if they\u2019re working as an immigration adviser, or access to information that they shouldn\u2019t, in normal circumstances, be privy to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe strong advice of the officials, which I think influenced members on the committee, was that, in fact, the people that we\u2019re trying to protect with this legislation\u2014members of the public\u2014actually had the most to gain from having access to advisers who might have very fresh experience and knowledge of the inner workings of Immigration New Zealand, having been working for the department, and that there are a number of codes of conduct, Public Service codes of conduct and others, that govern the treatment of privileged information and that they provide sufficient protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll leave it there. Labour is supporting this bill and the committee was unanimous in recommending that the bill proceed. We made a number of pretty minor amendments and improvements, but Labour is happy to support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u00223b36274edfb24fa5bafb84a20a56bb33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b36274edfb24fa5bafb84a20a56bb33\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. We do love a good omnibus bill, and as the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee said, this legislation covers 24 Acts. It\u2019s like a big bus with 24 passengers on it. Not only are we into productivity and efficiency but we\u2019re into public transport too! We like a good omnibus bill. Also, on the subject, happy birthday to the member for \u014Ctaki, Tim Costley, today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to pick up the last comments of the previous member there, the Hon Phil Twyford, that this is about fine-tuning. When you\u2019re trying to tune a radio and you\u2019re a just a few clicks out, when you hear it, it\u2019s that sweet sound, and if you\u2019re in Hamilton or the mighty Waikato, you go to 97.8 or The Rock 93FM, or maybe ZB 97FM. But, hey, Mr Speaker, it\u2019s about fine-tuning. We\u2019ve got a lot more fine-tuning to do in the next 18\u00A0months, but, for now, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022e58c3115ddfb4b26a08f6f0577efed67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e58c3115ddfb4b26a08f6f0577efed67\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am a part of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, but I want to talk, first of all, about the impact of the work done by my colleague on the Education and Workforce Committee, because I was listening very carefully to what the Hon Phil Twyford just said, and it resonated in my own electorate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EImmigration is one of the things that is very important if you\u2019re a local MP. You really do see people who are at sea; they are vulnerable. It is a really difficult thing to come in and work out who are the people you can trust in a new country, so this work is incredibly important. I totally take the point that the advisers made, and it has been turned into legislation, that a workforce that understands the intricacies of immigration\u2014which has to be a careful system, because it\u2019s a big-stakes thing for everyone. It is really important that that workforce can become our trusted advisers. It\u2019s good for those people too, because it\u2019s a career path, but it\u2019s also the people who are most likely going to be able to do things efficiently and effectively for our migrants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI do share the concern over unlicensed agents, and I have seen those cases where there has been far too much money spent on doing things, like applying, in a way which in fact somebody could have done without spending any money at all. I think most recently the bill I saw for that was $5,000, and it was something that, in fact, there was no need to have anyone involved in at all, and it was actually a misdirected application. It\u2019s a really important thing, and I commend my colleagues for doing that work and putting it into this\u00A0legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI also wanted to talk about the employment changes here, the issue about copies of agreements and copies of terms and conditions being held but also being available\u2014so held by an employer\u2014as it\u2019s not something that always happens. Again, I practised in that area, and quite often people didn\u2019t have access to their employment agreement, and it\u2019s very undermining when you need to really make sure that people are communicating well, that they know their rights, if in fact the agreement has not been kept or has not actually been given up. That\u2019s another thing I think is a really practical change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EFinally, I don\u2019t want to go through and list 24 Acts; I think that can be really unhelpful for the public. I do want to reassure the public that these bills are taken really seriously, and people do go through them in quite a lot of detail. It is really helpful when submitters come along who point things out. I take the point made by the New Zealand First speaker tonight that we had, in our committee, Sue Chetwin come along on the Charities Act. She\u2019s a very renowned and expert person in that area. It was great to hear what she had to say, and we do absolutely listen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI also wanted to make the point that I was interested in one of the amendments there, which\u00A0was a cooperation between the Financial Markets Authority and the Commerce Commission (ComCom). This is an area I think that New Zealand\u2019s going to have to get right.\u00A0We\u2019re improving it, and we need to do a lot more in the area of communication between our organisations, and synchronisation of what they\u2019re doing. This is about the passing of information and the working together to deal with the situations which have arisen in what\u2019s called a \u201Cstandard contract\u201D\u2014an unfair term in a standard contract. There\u2019s nothing short of exploitation going on in those situations, so it\u2019s really important that our agencies, like the Financial Markets Authority and ComCom, work on those together, where both should be applicable. I\u2019m pleased to see that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EFinally, I\u2019ve got 30 seconds and I want to do a shout-out to Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, because recently, in this House, we had an allegation or a kind of abuse about whether he\u00A0was a migrant. The fact that he\u2019s on a committee, listening to the stories and the law that changes if you\u2019re a migrant, is really helpful. One of the wonderful things about this House\u00A0is people come in from every walk of life, and they get to participate, and they get to bring their experience and their vulnerability here. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u00221758b269e84f4c9c97c4c10c9f02b05d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221758b269e84f4c9c97c4c10c9f02b05d\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to also contribute to the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve counted: there are over 20 different changes to the Acts and a long list of amendments. This legislation is really about improving our regulatory framework, making laws in New Zealand more efficient, more up to date, more modernised, reducing the red tape, reducing administrative burdens\u2014for who? Again, coming back to the topic, the core message in my debates tonight in this House on the last bill and also on this legislation is that we are lawmakers in New Zealand making laws for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003EAll we want to do is to make sure that the laws read efficient, are performing efficiently, because efficient regulation is good for economic growth, which is exactly what we do as the National-led Government\u2014we promote growth, because growth means better wealth for the country, better wealth for our families, better wealth for all New Zealanders. Because of that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002204479bbe2d0c41d5bdb79ee80ef00f2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204479bbe2d0c41d5bdb79ee80ef00f2d\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I just want to acknowledge at the start of my contribution today, the passing of a very close family friend Gabrielle Rikihana of Ng\u0101ti Raukawa, who passed away at 97 on Sunday. I just want to acknowledge her. Moe mai r\u0101, e te whaea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI was privileged to be able to participate in the select committee process around this particular bill. I think, as you would have seen from the contributions tonight, we took this process very seriously. Even though this particular reading is unusual in the sense that it\u2019s the reading of two bills together, there\u2019s been, I think, effective scrutiny on both of those bills and of the different components of those bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EYou would have heard my colleague Phil Twyford speak about the immigration aspects of the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill, and my colleague Glen Bennett speak about the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill. The part that I want to focus on is the workforce elements of the immigration and workforce regulatory systems amendment bill\u2014and I haven\u2019t read out the title exactly, but I think you understand what I mean, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe three aspects that I wanted to cover in this bill were, first of all, the changes in relation to employment agreements, and this was a change that is made by the bill that my colleague Helen White mentioned, which was an attempt to make sure that it wasn\u2019t just the employer or the employee that had a copy of the employment agreement but it was, in fact, both parties. I think that\u2019s an objective that is helpful for everyone because it means that everyone has a copy of the written agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAt the same time, we did scrutinise this quite intensively at select committee and we did make a few changes to this particular provision to make sure that this provision was fit for purpose. It also wasn\u2019t clear in the original drafting of the bill that it wasn\u2019t meant to be as if only the employer was to hold a copy of the agreement. I think it\u2019s a point of fairness that both parties do have access to that as well, and just also to make sure that it was not only the individual employment agreement but also the terms and conditions as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI think that was a beneficial discussion that we did have at select committee, and discussions around the fact that you can be an employee when you\u2019re an intending employee, which is quite a technical point but one that I think was very elucidating for members of the committee to realise that when you do receive an employment offer, you do actually fit the definition of \u201Cemployee\u201D under the Employment Relations Act, even though you haven\u2019t started a job. That was a helpful discussion that we had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EOne point of disappointment that I do have is that, in the updated legislative statement, those very good changes are not reflected. There are the changes to the Electricity Act and the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act but not the changes to the Employment Relations Act, but we did, in fact, make them and I just wanted to note that for the record there as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe second area that I wanted to cover was the amendments to the Health and Safety at Work Act. These are, as other members have stated, pragmatic changes that will make the Health and Safety at Work Act work more effectively. The point I really want to make about this is not necessarily the individual provisions, which are helpful in terms of returning levies, are helpful in terms of mine operations, are helpful in terms of the distinction between a tourist mine and a working mine\u2014all of these are sensible changes that have been scrutinised and are included in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EOverall, a message to my colleagues over the other side of the House, especially those in the National Party: I think health and safety is an area that we really should be working on in a bipartisan manner. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s in anyone\u2019s interest that we have these very, very important fundamental rules about how people conduct business that change every time we have a change of Government. That has been what has happened to date. The National Party brought in the Health and Safety at Work Act. We, as the Labour Government, fundamentally supported that. There is now a review which is happening, led by the Minister, into this area of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EMy plea to you, really, is: let us not lose the benefits of a bipartisan approach to health and safety. Our objectives are the same. We don\u2019t want people to be injured at work; we want people to come home safe from work. So, please, in this review, can we work together to make sure that these objectives are upheld. There\u2019s a lot of agreement. Unions agree. Businesses agree. This is a really good example of how agreement can work in practice. If there are people on the other side of the House listening, that is my plea on behalf of, I think, New Zealanders\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae30fefb766b42669a188196fbaa0966\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think we\u2019re on a health and safety bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be23aa862b474065a329aa089044ee94\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014who would appreciate that as well. Hopefully, my ACT colleagues can pass that on to the Minister too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe last part that I wanted to mention was the changes to the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Act. This is a really interesting part of the bill that we did scrutinise a lot, extensively at select committee, which is, essentially, something that people may not know about\u2014and if they do know about it, it might be because they\u2019ve gone through a very difficult time in their life\u2014and that is the fact that New Zealanders are entitled to a pre-term baby payment, and that is when your baby is born prematurely before 37 weeks, you can have up to 13 weeks\u2019 pre-term baby payment in addition to your paid parental leave. That is, really, to acknowledge the fact that people who have had a baby prematurely face additional challenges during an extremely stressful time\u2014if not one of the most stressful times\u2014for people in their lives, when they do have a baby arriving prematurely. These pre-term baby payments kick in at around 24 weeks. Anyone who has known anyone who\u2019s had a baby that early will know it\u2019s a very, very difficult time. The parental leave provisions that we have follow from the pre-term baby payment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe effective purpose of this change in Part 7 of the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill is to make it really clear that those do follow on from one another, and the pre-term baby payment, for how many weeks you\u2019re entitled to it, you will be entitled to that first, and then, after that, you will be entitled to parental leave around about the effective due date of your baby. This is a really important entitlement that New Zealanders have for support at a really difficult time, and a really important clarification as to how those rights work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI really hope that people in this House, and people who are interested in the workings of this bill, do discuss and advertise the fact that that is the case, because it might be that people are unaware, and it\u2019s an additional stress that you don\u2019t need at the time of having a baby prematurely, to feel that you maybe won\u2019t be entitled to payment for that period of time to parental leave - equivalent payment, or that because your baby has arrived early, perhaps your time that you\u2019d planned to take off work will be significantly changed. These, essentially, clarify what should have been implemented, but there was sufficient doubt as to whether that was currently being correctly implemented, that advisers through the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment told us that this would be a beneficial change to put in, and it\u2019s one that I am very happy to see. That\u2019s another example of, I think, a really good change that is in this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThose are the three areas that I really wanted to highlight. As I said, colleagues have highlighted other aspects of these bills, in relation to immigration and economic development. Those, I think, in relation to workforce, as the spokesperson for workforce relations and safety, were what I really wanted to highlight. On behalf of myself and the party, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00220c62e31f0c0d4eaa98d28bdc2595e8c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c62e31f0c0d4eaa98d28bdc2595e8c8\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E As the last speaker in this debate, it is my pleasure to round off this discussion we\u2019re having on a riveting set of bills this evening. As a former member of the hard-working Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, it was my pleasure to help review the details of one of these bills. My colleague Cameron Brewer mentioned that the legislation before us is omnibus legislation; over 20\u00A0Acts are going to be changed, as a result of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EAs we know, not all change is, you know, sexy retail change that we go out and campaign on. A lot of it is around marginal tweaks to regulations that help improve people\u2019s daily lives, and that is what these bills seek to do: to make very small tweaks to regulations so that people can go about their lives in a daily manner more efficiently, more effectively, without cumbersome regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EWithout taking up much more time of the House\u2014because I don\u2019t think any of us will be rushing out the door to speak about this bill in particular\u2014I do want to acknowledge the select committees for their work in this, the officials, and the Ministers responsible for bringing this bill to the House. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EBills read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf29c04d960d4238810c653488dbe3cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf29c04d960d4238810c653488dbe3cb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c88d39d9065347118974e6f34b47e332\u0022\u003ESentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d5fc1874ccef487a87841ff76d80ae1b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d6b95e9f3ae9455e99caeeb0922e1394\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Sentencing Act 2002 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229dc0027e15b648118fadbd0d299d28b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229dc0027e15b648118fadbd0d299d28b2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill. We come first to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses\u00A03 to 16, \u201CAmendments to the Sentencing Act 2002\u201D, and the Schedule. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002243792ef05b3b4e31a3e31834b09b945f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243792ef05b3b4e31a3e31834b09b945f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just signalling\u2014to Madam Chair as well\u2014that I\u2019ve got a number of amendments to this particular bill but also that the bill has the potential to be quite complex in terms of the ramifications of the relationship with both the Sentencing Act and also the Crimes Act, and also in terms of the wider scope of the aggravating and mitigating factor\u2014which, granted, is some of the bedrock of our Sentencing Act and our sentencing procedures in Aotearoa. I\u2019m just signalling to the Chair that we will be going through section by section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI want to start by asking the Minister\u2014starting with clause 4, section 4 amended, in terms of interpretation. This is specifically in reference to the remorse mitigating factors. Now, understanding we\u2019ve had some discussions around this and some clarifications around this during the committee stage\u2014and we can see this amendment that\u2019s been done as part of the select committee stage\u2014I\u2019m curious in terms of the remorse mitigating factors and particularly with (b) excluding \u201Canything described in section 10\u201D. I want to check with the Minister whether either the Minister or any of the officials have done any form of modelling around what the possibilities are of it punishing people on a lower socio-economic status more than people on a higher economic and social status.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure the Minister is aware, in section 10 of the Sentencing Act, it is to do with expressions of remorse, which could be both in terms of actions and also in terms of finance or in terms of, I guess, other forms of financial reparation. So, I guess\u2014excluding section 10 as part of the 40 percent cap\u2014would the Minister consider, or could the Minister provide clarification on, whether that could be a possibility that people who could afford to pay the\u00A0victim are able to, essentially, get a higher percentage of discount than people who do\u00A0not have access to that particular source? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002207e658e49df84f8997f01fd1580f1e5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207e658e49df84f8997f01fd1580f1e5e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s comments on the kind of underpinning policy of this Act. I\u2019m aware that, in terms of sentencing principles in the Act, the Minister has suggested an Amendment Paper\u2014and, in particular, an Amendment Paper which sees an additional aggravating factor as posting online. That\u2019s clause 5A, which replaces, I think, section 9A of the principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just interested in his views. Whilst in fact that\u2019s probably unobjectionable\u2014which is a rare thing from this Minister, but there you go\u2014I\u2019m interested in his views of what other factors should be taken into account given this Government\u2019s so-called victim-centric approach. I know there\u2019s an Amendment Paper on the Table that my colleague will speak to, I\u2019m sure, but in terms of placing greater weight on the views of victims, I\u2019d be interested in his views on that. That\u2019s clause 5 of the bill. I\u2019d be interested in his views there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2939c55d3024b26920cbb8368d1ee68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2939c55d3024b26920cbb8368d1ee68\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to know from the Minister about the issue of the guilty plea, because I can see a statement that is about these actual discounts\u2014things like guilty pleas and youth pleas\u2014and a kind of attempt to make a hard and fast rule in those situations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, my experience with people who are young is that they\u2019re actually developing so much that you might get a remorseful plea at a later time in their maturity that means a lot more than the one that happened before. My understanding is, under this new rule, the judge\u2019s discretion to look at the person before them and to think \u201CThat person there has developed some common sense, some true remorse, and has appreciated what they\u2019ve done\u201D may actually be constrained in terms of finding an appropriate pathway for that person. I\u2019m very interested in those particular things. We\u2019ve got a guilty plea discount. We\u2019ve got a youth discount. Are those factors sufficiently flexible in this situation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I do understand that there is absolutely a scepticism when people continually say they\u2019re sorry and demonstrate remorse, but there\u2019s also the real thing. I would like to know, from the Minister, what flexibility has been built into the system when a judge\u2014who, after all, we pay a lot of money because they\u2019ve been there around the block a few times and they\u2019ve seen this\u2014sees somebody in front of them who is perhaps young\u2014perhaps they\u2019re not young; there are other reasons. For example, they may have had real issues with addiction which they have overcome. They\u2019re seeing someone who for some reason has come through a crisis\u2014and the crisis may have contained offending, which is not an excuse; it\u2019s just a reality\u2014and they\u2019re in that position there where they actually\u2014that\u2019s when remorse matters; that\u2019s when their age matters, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to know from the Minister: what is the story with that? How are they going to have sufficient flexibility for us not to have an unjust and just stupid outcome\u2014just a silly, damaging outcome\u2014to both the victim and to the perpetrator?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002266ca288149d34d6e9b8f16c0787bc44d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266ca288149d34d6e9b8f16c0787bc44d\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. While the Minister seeks some advice to my earlier question, I think this is something that I want to pick up on\u2014what the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has mentioned in terms of the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper 224. I have a number of questions to this Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI guess the first thing is\u2014understanding that this Amendment Paper is in response to the abuse in State care and faith-based care report\u2014I wanted to check with the Minister what the reason was behind the Amendment Paper coming to the House so late, when my understanding is it was brought to Cabinet in November 2024, and in terms of what some of the recommendations are. The thing is, if the Minister had brought it to Cabinet early in November, we actually could have incorporated the Amendment Paper as part of our discussion in select committee, and there might have been opportunities for people to be able to submit on that. I wanted to know: is there a rationale behind why this Amendment Paper was introduced so late?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI guess the second part, in terms of the delay in terms of this Amendment Paper as well, is whether the Minister has sought advice from the office of the Attorney-General, as all Amendment Papers should. One of the things I am interested in, and also have observed repeatedly, is that, particularly within the justice portfolio, there has been a reoccurring habit of Ministers introducing Amendment Papers during or just before the committee stage without going through the select committee process. I would like to know what sort of recommendations, or what sort of clarifications, the Minister\u2019s able to provide on having to do that over and over. We\u2019ve seen that with the Gangs Legislation Amendment Bill, we\u2019ve seen that with the three-strikes legislation, and we\u2019re now seeing that with this bill as well, where a kind of reasonably substantial Amendment Paper is dropped sort of last minute. That\u2019s my second question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy third question is around the rationale behind why the Minister decided to only take up two of the recommendations from this abuse in State care report and not the third one around potentially considering the mitigating factors\u2014sorry, not in terms of mitigating factors but taking past convictions or convictions as a result of the abuse in State care into consideration when we\u2019re looking at section 9(1)(j) of the Sentencing Act, because that was something that\u00A0was in the recommendations. My understanding from the Minister is that that would be hard to implement, but also, at the same time, with what we\u2019re seeing as a lack of emphasis and priority being placed on cultural reports, how would the Minister ensure that, if the Minister doesn\u2019t take that particular recommendation on board\u2014citing that it\u2019s already existing in the current legislation or it\u2019s going to provide additional complexity? How will we be able to have the confidence that that particular recommendation from that report will be taken on board and that for people who are convicted or have previous convictions as a result of their abuse in State care, their voices will be listened to as part of their aggravating factors being applied under section 9(1)(j)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThose are my three questions. The first one is: if this was brought to Cabinet in November 2024, was there a reason why the Amendment Paper itself was brought so late to the House and didn\u2019t get a chance for public to submit or have a say on it? Has the Minister sought advice from the Attorney-General on this particular Amendment Paper\u2014because we are seeing that worrying trend of substantial Amendment Papers being dropped just before or even during committee stage. Finally, the rationale behind not taking up the third recommendation from the abuse in State care and faith-based care recommendations\u2014how is the Minister going to address the fact that we are not seeing that emphasis being placed on cultural reports? What effect would that have in terms of the Minister not including that recommendation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022007b9ab71ef34e5d85f0a5bd27ef997f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022007b9ab71ef34e5d85f0a5bd27ef997f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I want to start by thanking members for their questions. This is an important part of the legislative process\u2014that we work our way through the proposed legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EFor people tuning in to this debate, the broader issue is that Parliament, generally, when it comes to sentencing laws, sets a maximum sentence, whether it\u2019s for murder or for aggravated assault or various other things in the Crimes Act. Then judges in New Zealand have discretion beneath that maximum; there is a kind of rule of thumb as a starting point, which is often guided by Court of Appeal decisions. Then judges have been\u00A0in the habit of listing a number of discounts applied to that starting point to get to the final\u00A0sentence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s how the system works. It\u2019s not set in stone that it has to work that\u00A0way, and people\u00A0will say,\u00A0\u201CWell, Parliament shouldn\u2019t interfere with the independence of judges.\u201D\u00A0It\u2019s perfectly within the realms of possibility that the Parliament, instead of having maximum sentences, could have minimum sentences, or they could have compulsory sentences; Parliament could do any approach that it likes. All around the world people have\u00A0different approaches. The feedback and the concern that we\u2019ve had across the community is that there has been an excessive use of discounts in recent times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t refer to any particular cases, because that\u2019s definitely for the courts to decide, but, overall, in sentencing policy, this Government wants to send a clearer message that we want to have real consequences for crime. We\u2019re not comfortable with very significant discounts applied, so that people are convicted of serious crimes and then, through a series of discounts, end up with home detention or something like\u00A0that, in particular circumstances. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve brought in this legislation, which ultimately limits the ability of judges to have discounts of more than 40 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EPeople tuning in will say, \u201CWell, 40 percent, that\u2019s quite a lot. Why are we allowing that much discretion?\u201D Of course, an important part of that is recognising the guilty plea, and, for the functioning of the courts, the best thing we can do for victims of crime, other than doing everything we can to avoid them being victims of crime in the first place, is to at least be able to deliver timely justice and not have the court process dragging out for years and years, re-traumatising victims. A guilty plea, which avoids all that process and deals with the situation in a faster manner, is a good thing and is something that should be acknowledged within the sentencing, and so that\u2014up to 25 percent\u2014is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EOne of the most important things we\u2019re doing in this legislation, though, is recognising that that full discount shouldn\u2019t be offered if people wait till the very last minute\u2014to the morning of the case\u2014to plead guilty, because that still creates an enormous amount of stress for the system and the victims, and so there should be a sliding scale. If you plead guilty at the first opportunity, yes, you get a significant discount; if it\u2019s later in the time, you get a less significant one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, just quickly addressing some of the issues raised by our friend from the Greens in terms of Amendment Papers being delivered late in the process: yes, this is an extremely busy Government. We\u2019ve got a lot on our legislative agenda\u2014a lot going on\u2014and the blockage in the pipeline to getting even more done is working our way through all the pieces of legislation and the policy advice. Sometimes, in an imperfect world, we have an opportunity with a piece of legislation before the House on a particular topic to add a couple of things to it, and we take that opportunity rather than starting a whole new process with a separate piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhen it came to some of the recommendations of the royal commission, in terms of State abuse, we saw that as an opportunity to introduce an amendment, recognising one of the recommendations there. Now, we didn\u2019t take all the recommendations. In terms of recognising the background of people who have been in State care independently, we think there are many opportunities within the existing law for judges to recognise the background circumstances of the perpetrators of crime, and so we didn\u2019t think any additional reference was required in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022adbcbcac73014dfebc5efb3fc3276f17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adbcbcac73014dfebc5efb3fc3276f17\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, we accept that it is open to the Government to signal penalties in a particular way. If it\u2019s the view of this Government\u2014and it clearly is\u2014that the judges have been perhaps a little light, then it\u2019s certainly part of our democratic process that that can be done, even though, on this side of the House, we might not agree with everything there. In doing this, Minister, there is a risk that you\u2019re introducing a whole lot of new concepts and approaches, which is quite disruptive to the sentencing process. Throughout this committee stage, I\u2019m keen to just explore some of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhilst you\u2019ve given a policy overview of the approach, I\u2019m keen to kind of dig down. One of the brand new concepts that this bill I think almost by accident has introduced is a distinction between a mitigating factor of the circumstances of the offence and a personal mitigating factor. You\u2019ve got this brand new definition in section 4, which sets out a personal mitigating factor. I\u2019ll come to starting points later. This is critical to the sentencing process because the discounts that are limited by your reforms are limited in respect of personal mitigating factors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EYou\u2019ve got a crime which is committed, and it might be a serious premeditated assault on an unsuspecting person. Now, they\u2019re not personal. What a personal mitigating factor appears to be is factors about the offender which can be taken into account in lowering the sentence, so it might be youth; it might be mental impairment. Whether they pleaded guilty is another one there that\u2019s listed. One of the problems is you get a degree of uncertainty. You go to replacement section 4(a)(vi), inserted by clause 4, \u201Cany evidence of the offender\u2019s previous good character\u201D, and then paragraph (b), \u201Ca mitigating factor under section 9(4)(a)\u201D\u2014which is itself open-ended\u2014\u201Cthat the court considers is personal to the offender\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis is very relevant. The Government\u2019s intention is Parliament\u2019s intention. In having a personal mitigating factor, exactly what is meant by it? What isn\u2019t a personal mitigating factor? The fact the offender was responding to a threat or physical assault him or herself, is that a personal mitigating factor, or is that a factor about the offence itself? The fact that the person was hungry and stole food, is that a personal mitigating factor, or is that just a factor about the circumstances of the offence? This is actually a critical point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, whilst a shoplifting offence probably isn\u2019t going to raise too many issues, when we get into issues of a murder, there is the old provocation offence, where someone is so incensed with a set of circumstances they find that they react in an angry and uncontrolled manner. That is a factor of the offence that the judge can take into account. I guess I\u2019m asking you, Minister, a factor like that, is that a personal mitigating factor, which is capped in terms of what can be taken into account, or is it a circumstance about the offence, which is not capped and where the judge can address the starting point of the sentencing process? That\u2019s a critical point that I think really requires your clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe4a3ed677b04f61bcff99420ae8d61f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe4a3ed677b04f61bcff99420ae8d61f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to say that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has raised a lot of really, really important points. Because, again, let\u2019s not forget that, from a criminal law perspective, the interaction between the Crimes Act 1961 and the Sentencing Act 2002 forms the very foundation of our criminal law system. In terms of getting these sorts of clarifications from the Minister, it\u2019s absolutely crucial in guiding the way that we do look at criminal law cases going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, I just want to pick up on something the Minister said before\u2014and a thankyou to the Minister for providing both the background but also answers to some of my questions. There are two things I want to pick up on first that the Minister said. The first one is that the Government has a lot of bills to get through and gives the impression that if an Amendment Paper is late, it\u2019s late, but I just also want to raise the same concern and warning that the Attorney-General has raised last year in terms of speeding through legislation without proper consultation and proper view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think the other thing that I asked the Minister specifically regarding not taking on the third recommendation from the report of abuse in State care and faith-based care is around the fact that if the existing section 9(1)(j) of the Sentencing Act is already sufficient, how would we address the general concern that communities\u2014and particularly victims of abuse in State care and faith-based care\u2014have around the defunding and also the lack of prioritisation being placed on section 27 cultural reports? My question was specifically on the weight of section 27 reports that is going to be placed on the existing section 9(1)(j), from the Minister\u2019s perspective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, going on to what the Minister mentioned before in terms of the broader discount concern, and I hear from the Minister that there are concerns about the fact that people might perceive that the way that we discount is potentially loose or potentially too weak, but I wanted to check from the Minister, because during the select committee stage, we heard from legal experts who are in these areas\u2014and not just the New Zealand Law Society but also Community Law and other aspects and facets of law and the legal profession; people who work in this field and are experts within this field. I want to check with the Minister: how has the Minister consulted with experts in the field, and do they share the same concern that the Minister\u2019s just expressed in terms of discount concerns?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBased on the departmental report, it doesn\u2019t seem like the legal profession experts in this field share that same concern. Judging by what is present in terms of both the regulatory impact statement and the supplementary analysis, we are seeing that the limitations being placed and the narrow scope of the bill meant that officials couldn\u2019t actually consult more widely. In fact, in the supplementary report that was mentioned specifically on the two new aggravating factors that were mentioned, there is the fact that the ministry has been unable to assess the potential impact the inclusion of the aggravating factors could have on sentencing. Had officials had time, they would have done X, Y, and Z.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI want to check with the Minister: who are these people who expressed concerns about the fact that the current discount is too high?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022097c2c5cd57541909dfccb0b30ee2315\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022097c2c5cd57541909dfccb0b30ee2315\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Well, obviously there\u2019s a wide range of opinions across society around sentencing law. For example, when we went to see members of the Sandringham Business Association in Auckland and people operating in the retail space, on many, many occasions it has been expressed to me the deep frustration of people who are just trying to make a living running a business or a dairy or any kind of retail business and find that they\u2019re being attacked physically, and then, if someone is finally actually held to account and convicted in a court, reading the very long list of discounts offered so that the sentence ends up\u2014and it\u2019s always a question of judgment, but they feel it is\u2014very far removed certainly from the maximum sentence, and maybe a home detention or some such outcome for a violent assault. There have been many, many people who have been concerned about the message that society is sending in terms of the seriousness of the consequences for convictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, obviously it\u2019s not the role of Parliament or the executive to critique or to interfere with individual cases and individual judgments made by the court, and I don\u2019t do that, but it is very much the appropriate space for Parliament and the Government of the day to consider the messages that it sends in the Sentencing Act. The primary message that we\u2019re wanting to send through this legislation is that Parliament wants to see a more judicious approach taken to discounts. We don\u2019t want to see repeated discounts offered for remorse. You can be remorseful, of course. Everybody understands that people can be remorseful, but we\u2019re not so convinced if it is many times. You can get a discount for being young, but not many times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI think, frankly, one of the things that\u2019s been of interest to people has been the recent reporting of many court cases in the open justice media approach that\u2019s been taken over the past few years, and people have seen many instances where significant discounts of sometimes up to 60 or 70 percent on the starting point have been offered. There\u2019s been widespread public concern. If I think back to the election of late 2023, the number one issue that was consistently raised on the doorsteps was the cost of living and people concerned about that, but a fairly consistent number two, particularly in Auckland and Waikato and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eed4a523394a4a6c871cbbeec9fee516\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Takanini.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e25c7ee6b50843f09582e06a0baaa469\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Takanini\u2014certainly in Takanini\u2014was real concern around law and order in the community, and people wanting to see a stronger message.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a philosophical thing that comes into it, and we had a sense that the previous administration did offer up a lot of excuses for crime and a culture of excuses for criminal behaviour. We wanted to send a message that was much more focused on the needs of the victims of crime, and the sentencing element, of course, is only one part of that. We have to locate that in the broader context: sending a clear message, holding people to account, and taking those worst serious repeat offenders out of circulation for longer is part of the response. An equally important part of the response is better rehabilitation and\u00A0dealing with the long-term drivers of crime, and the Government\u2019s equally interested in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the broader justice response, the sentencing element is one element of it, but it\u2019s not the total response, because I think everybody in this House recognises the importance of dealing with some of the broader long-term social issues that we face as a country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb727f23742149ffb38e67b62ffbdea3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb727f23742149ffb38e67b62ffbdea3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014I know I beat my colleague Tracey McLellan to her feet there. Look\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa9f024665914e0bad29fddc82320fe1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I didn\u2019t see you. You might have to call louder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223be3a677af77435291e092c38167e7c4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Justice has given a couple of good speeches on sentencing policy from the Government\u2019s perspective, but he hasn\u2019t answered some of the really detailed questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy earlier question was in respect of personal mitigating factors, and I gave him some examples, but the critical one was: is a degree of lack of control due to being taunted, for example\u2014or provoked, to use the old language\u2014a personal mitigating factor, or is it a mitigating factor that goes to the overall offence? Is it a mitigating factor that can be discounted only to 40 percent, or is it one which goes to starting point, which apparently can be discounted without limit. That\u2019s really important. Great policy speak, but, Minister, we\u2019d really appreciate it if you could answer the really detailed questions that are appropriate in a\u00A0committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy next question is about remorse. And I get it, right? The judges already are sceptical of repeated cases of \u201CI\u2019m sorry. I\u2019m terribly remorseful about this.\u201D, and rightly so. This Government said you can only play the remorse card once. I can understand what\u2019s behind that, but we\u2019ve got a tricky situation, because, on the one hand, you\u2019re like, \u201CWe don\u2019t believe you\u2019re sorry enough to give you a discount.\u201D, but on the other hand, we don\u2019t want to disadvantage victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis is in clause 4, which amends the interpretation section and talks about what a \u201Cremorse mitigating factor\u201D is. It identifies the mitigating factor in section 9(2)(f), which identifies remorse, but it excludes anything described in section 10. It\u2019s that distinction which is important, Minister, because the section 10 distinction is people who show they\u2019re sorry, not by saying it but by doing something. This runs into a problem because, if you\u2019re Whittall from Pike River and you\u2019ve got $4 million of insurance to show you\u2019re sorry, then all of a sudden that can become very helpful indeed, but if you don\u2019t have means and you can\u2019t show in a tangible way how sorry you are by an offer of compensation, and you\u2019re not equipped to go and rebuild the fence that you smashed down, or whatever it might be, then it doesn\u2019t matter how sorry you are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOne of the questions I have in terms of this section 10 provision is: what space is there for people who can\u2019t make financial recompense? It looks dangerously like you get a discount for paying to be sorry, but not a discount where you can\u2019t pay for being sorry. That\u2019s deeply problematic because we don\u2019t want justice that you can buy and sell. Please explain in respect of saying, \u201CNo, we don\u2019t believe you\u2019re sorry if you say sorry twice, but we will believe you\u2019re sorry if you\u2019ll pay for being sorry twice.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s actually a deep policy question about who the justice system serves and whether it is tilted in favour of people who have money, and against those who don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EReferring to my earlier question about provocation, I would really like an answer on that, and I\u2019m sure there\u2019ll be courts later down the track that would like an answer on that. Secondly, what are we doing about people being able buy their remorse discount?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002271d3f5f4957f4ae2be2b62a2b7e64e10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271d3f5f4957f4ae2be2b62a2b7e64e10\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E In terms of the personal mitigating factors which are included in the cap, they are things such as the age of the offender or whether they pleaded guilty, whether the offender has taken steps during proceedings to shorten the proceedings or reduce their cost, evidence of the offender\u2019s good character\u2014those elements. Some of the things that are not included in the cap, because they\u2019re not relating to the personal circumstances, are things such as the offender having spent time on bail with an electronic monitoring (EM) condition, as defined in section 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThat would be one example. Another one would be any adverse effect on the offender of a delay in the disposition caused by a failure by the prosecution\u2019s part. That would be another thing where that wouldn\u2019t have to be included in the cap. The conduct of the victim is not included in the cap, and that\u2019s an element there. There is a range of things that we\u2019ve included in and excluded from the cap, particularly things, like I say, such as time already served on EM bail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef125b84524041288accbe03577239c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef125b84524041288accbe03577239c0\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I must say that answer from the Minister isn\u2019t totally satisfactory, because my colleague the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has just said, and given several examples to highlight the fact, that it\u2019s actually a deep and heavy kind of policy question and one that requires a requisite amount of analysis, let alone familiarity. I think, certainly, my other colleagues have mentioned the fact that this is the stage where we need to have those answers, in terms of what was the rationale, what was the thinking behind it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhen we look at this section and, as other people have said, the very deliberate parcelling out of mitigating factors relating to the offence versus relating to the person\u2014which, by definition, is deeply personal, and therefore, by further definition, is undoubtedly complex because people are complex\u2014the Minister\u2019s account of that, notwithstanding the fact that we still haven\u2019t heard anything specific or concrete about provocation, doesn\u2019t really feel as if it\u2019s as weighty as what one would imagine answers to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe Minister in his previous response and his contribution talked a lot and spent the majority of his time mentioning messaging and sending messages. This isn\u2019t simple PR; this is a piece of legislation that has potentially quite profound effects on actual people. Whilst I appreciate the Government\u2019s intentionality, or rather their basic intention to signal to people that somehow this Government is tough on crime or is going to be tough on crime and do things to be tougher on crime, this doesn\u2019t really feel like a very nuanced or a very well-thought-out example of doing that, mainly because, as colleagues have pointed out, there seem to be several holes, several inconsistencies, and we\u2019re just trying to get to grips with what ties those things together to make a little bit of a more cogent theory behind what is happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ENow, if we look, as others have, at the remorse and the age angles, in particular, as personal mitigating factors\u2014and I trust that the Minister will endeavour to answer a little bit more fully those questions that have already been asked. The one \u201Cthat the offender has taken steps during the proceedings (other than steps to comply with procedural requirements) to shorten the proceedings or reduce their cost\u201D is a very specific example that\u2019s not terribly personal, that the Minister might like to just provide a little bit more information about in terms of, as a rather dry clause, what the thinking was behind that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI also note that, as I said, whilst the Minister has said on numerous occasions that this mainly and primarily is about signalling and sending messages, in terms of how that, then,\u00A0interacts\u2014because crime isn\u2019t linear; it\u2019s cyclical, as we all know. He mentioned rehabilitation and sentencing and only being one tool in the tool box, so to speak, and, therefore, rehabilitation and various other factors impact that crime cycle, but he didn\u2019t really mention anything to do with drivers of crime and how these measures in here, in relation to these personal mitigating factors\u2014and if they\u2019re not able to be given the weight that they should be or they\u2019re not being able to be used as they could be as part of that breaking the cycle of crime or that readiness for future rehabilitation, should that involve sentencing that lends itself to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ECan the Minister quite specifically look at section 4(a)(v), and I just want to know a little bit more about what the specifics are around shortening the proceedings or reducing their cost, whilst we\u2019re waiting on, perhaps, the Minister to take some further advice around provocation and some more advice around just providing a little bit more fulsome answers in relation to remorse and age and how those things interact or not in this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed3abad45adc481c95f9b4aa81f8ef94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed3abad45adc481c95f9b4aa81f8ef94\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. While the Minister of Justice ponders Dr Tracey McLellan\u2019s questions, I just want to throw a few more questions to the Minister. Again, we are looking at something that\u2019s partly getting into the nitty-gritty of the bill itself. The Minister has expressed some of the policy intent, which would also need to be questioned, as well as some of the fundamental elements of statutory interpretation of the bill itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think the first thing I want to pick up on was what the Minister mentioned before. I think it is absolutely crucial that when we do look at bills like this and we look at sentencing, victims\u2019 voices are placed in a position and they are taken into consideration, and from our perspective, you know, that\u2019s one of the fundamental requirements when it comes to restorative justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, when we\u2019re looking at clause 5\u2014I guess a clarification, because the current section 8(f) of the Sentencing Act already has elements that talk about taking into consideration the victim as part of the sentencing, but this particular bill does clarify and divide that into two separate elements. We\u2019re looking at new section 8(f)(ii) \u201Cconcerning the interests of the victim\u201D. Now, the Minister has mentioned before that when we\u2019re looking at the people that the Minister has spoken to, which\u2014the Minister didn\u2019t mention any particular legal bodies or lawyers around that, other than businesses and local community, which, arguably, is incredibly important in the context when we\u2019re looking at this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOne of the things we did see that\u2019s been submitted on is that when we do take the victims\u2019 interest into consideration, it should be one that is restorative in nature and not punitive in nature. One of the submitters from community law does mention whether the wording will allow victims to seek a particular and vengeful punishment for the offender and make, actually, things worse for both parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI wondered, first of all, if the Minister would consider my Amendment Paper which inserts the new word \u201Crestorative\u201D as part of that considering of the restorative interest of the victim, just so that there are clarifications that we\u2019re not seeing the mentality of an eye for an eye, which, let\u2019s be honest, unless the Minister has data that could shed light otherwise, is not something that\u2019s beneficial to anyone. That\u2019s my first question, around clause 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy second question is around clause 6. I\u2019m going to first ask a question from the context of statutory interpretation. Now, in this bill, we\u2019ve introduced a new cross-heading, which is new section 9(1AAA), just above clause 6(1), that, basically, talks about adult offenders actually committing, etc., but this will sit above, presumably, section 9(1).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe problem with that is that, if you\u2019re looking at it from the context of statutory interpretation when it comes to aggravating factors, section 9(1) is empowered by the heading\u2014let me just quickly find it\u2014that \u201CIn sentencing or otherwise dealing with offender the court must take into [consideration] the following aggravating factors to the extent that they are applicable in the case:\u201D. By putting a cross-heading above that, I\u2019m not entirely sure what the Minister wants to do with that. Is that something the court should consider? Is that applicable to the entirety of section 9(1)? Is that just for the purpose of this bill? Either of those could be possible, so I would be grateful for some clarification from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOn top of that, it specifically used the term \u201Cadult\u201D. Now, \u201Cadult\u201D is not defined in any part of this bill, nor is it defined in the Sentencing Act, so it will also be important for the Minister to define: what does the Minister consider \u201Cadult\u201D to be? That actually is a clarification that\u2019s important. It could be as simple as 18 years and over, or 25 years and over\u2014that\u2019s perfectly reasonable\u2014but the clarification is needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI do have more questions for the Minister on clause 6, but I\u2019ll wait to hear from the Minister on my current questions first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002231a9b4cd83c543219f2b184613acab3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231a9b4cd83c543219f2b184613acab3a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The member raised a multitude of points on that, and I\u2019ll pick up on one in relation to the message being sent through sentencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EHe\u2019s referred to the possible interest in punitive responses and also a focus on rehabilitation in sentencing and a desire to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231160390207948d884de0558728886a2\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Restorative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7b692bee46942a09459aa8a21909952\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and of restorative intent. Both of those are important. I think that the other element that we sometimes lose sight of is that one of the purposes of the Sentencing Act is for society to denounce the act that\u2019s carried out. There have been cases, many examples, of people who were convicted of very serious crimes, such as raping multiple people, ending up with very short prison sentences or, indeed, no prison sentences, and time on home detention. From a victim\u2019s point of view, there is a reasonable question of doubt as to whether that outcome\u2014and we all know the difficulties of achieving convictions in such cases and all the pressure on the victim and the horror of that process, to go through all that and the consequences to be what some people would regard as very lenient. There\u2019s a question about whether society is effectively denouncing the act that has taken place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s the same with many instances of violent crime, again, being dealt with in a manner where many reasonable people would look at it and conclude, \u201CWell, actually, from what the consequences of that are, society is not, effectively, denouncing the act and sending a very clear message that we do not tolerate that activity and there will be consequences for it.\u201D I think that\u2019s broadly what people are looking for in sentencing reform: a clearer message from society about what we do tolerate and what we won\u2019t tolerate and where there will be significant consequences for certain actions. By limiting the overall discount, that\u2019s what we\u2019re hoping to achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00229fd7d7b6c6cc4511b2992aadbd95081e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fd7d7b6c6cc4511b2992aadbd95081e\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d actually like to take that point up, and it very much resonates with what I want to talk to the Minister about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThe issue over aggravating factors is that you\u2019re adding factors, you\u2019re selecting things that are particularly heinous, and while I accept that there\u2019s a real role for punitive action when we are sentencing people for things they\u2019ve done that are wrong and sometimes evil,\u00A0there\u2019s a whole lot of things that just don\u2019t get on the list and yet they\u2019re harming people enormously. My colleague raised the issue over whether you could buy your way out of a punishment, which hasn\u2019t been answered yet. I ask you about the selection of those aggravating factors, because my understanding is that we are not punishing anybody who\u2019s involved in any white-collar crime whatsoever. We don\u2019t punish a whole lot of people who actually end up on home detention in situations where they\u2019re in mansions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve seen that happen in my career. I have been in Cin Cin when Mark Lyons came in while he was away, when he shouldn\u2019t have been in Cin Cin at all. He was there, and he was repeatedly given softer sentences, and nobody asked, \u201CWhat background did that man come from? What privilege did he have?\u201D Was it something where, in fact, his crimes were hurting people enormously and he should have, in fact, been better off\u2014in fact, we all would have been better off\u2014if he\u2019d been inside at that earlier point, including probably him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThese are real things\u2014they\u2019re not made-up\u2014and I want to know from the Minister what kind of advice did he get about the proportionality of the crimes that he chose to target. It doesn\u2019t mean they\u2019re not important. I am from the area of Sandringham. I want to make sure that people do not ram-raid and that shopkeepers in my area feel safe. I am not disputing that those are very important things, but when somebody scams somebody, when they scam a whole lot of older people, they really hurt them. They hurt their families, they often cause suicide, they often cause deep, deep pain, and none of that is reflected on this list. What was it that the Minister decided to ask advice about, about what things should be on that list?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI heard the Minister talk about that kind of blue-skies approach and looking at the way that judges were making decisions. Where is the consideration of something like the obvious injustice when somebody goes and does their home detention in a beautiful mansion in Parnell and somebody else is doing their home detention in a little flat with a bracelet and poverty all around them and not a lot to do? Those are very different things. Yet how come they don\u2019t get on the list? How come we don\u2019t seek to punish and send those signals when it involves moneyed people, when it involves privilege? If you\u2019ve committed a crime and you\u2019ve had every privilege that our society can give you, including private schools and money\u2014if you have committed crimes\u2014surely you go to the top of the list? Surely, if you have taken people\u2019s hard-earned money in society, including in Sandringham, and you have caused enormous damage, you should be on the list?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhere is, on the list, the people who are involved in drug crimes or involved in much more serious things? That\u2019s what I want to know. What proportionality, what justice, are we bringing, when we hand pick a few things that just happen to target a group of people who always seem to be in the firing line and we ignore and we are blind to the real harm that others are causing? We do seem to be complicit. Where is it that you are doing that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also really still like an answer to my question about what happens if you have somebody who has had addiction and they are actually truly remorseful, they have developed\u2014what happens then if they\u2019ve already used up their chance in the depths of that addiction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002280b379cadb194e1dbff2877380124a28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280b379cadb194e1dbff2877380124a28\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E If the member is making the case for tougher consequences for white-collar criminals and people who perpetrate fraud against other New Zealanders, I wholeheartedly agree with her. They are broadly captured by this legislation, which is not limited to certain crimes; it covers all the crimes in the Crimes Act. I absolutely agree that one of the fastest growing areas of crime in our communities is fraud. I think all of us in the House will know of individuals whose lives have been capsized by fraudulent behaviour, where they\u2019ve lost substantial sums of money, and so the limitation on discounts for that kind of offending applies equally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIn terms of the aggravating factors, yes, one which has been included in this legislation is in relation to the special vulnerability of victims such as dairy owners, who are often working alone or living upstairs from the building. We, as a Government, decided that it was important to particularly draw attention to people where particularly their family are living upstairs or\u00A0out the back of a retail premises and are subjected to a ram raid in the middle of the night,\u00A0and the horror that that brings to that family. We wanted to recognise that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EYes, of course, a case can be made for many, many instances for aggravating factors, and so, yes, one can\u2019t do it for everything, but certainly, the broad message that this Government is sending, and this Parliament, hopefully, if they support this legislation, is that we want to have firmer consequences for a wide range of criminal offending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002285afb2bd18d34e5e930059c9b084acfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285afb2bd18d34e5e930059c9b084acfa\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve got two points. The first is in respect of clause 5 of the bill, section 8 amended. There\u2019s an Amendment Paper on the Table\u2014it\u2019s actually in the name of Helen White, but I\u2019ve asked her and she said I\u2019m allowed to speak to it. It\u2019s around the views of victims. We support the place of victims in the criminal justice system being enhanced. We\u2019re concerned that this Government is saying it but really paying lip service to it. This Amendment Paper, which touches on sentencing principles, makes two suggestions. That is that the sentencing court should be taking into account the views of the victim\u2014now, not giving them a right of veto, but giving weight to the views of the victim in respect of the appropriateness of any sentence, including any sentence indication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, victims\u2019 views are taken into account by way of victim impact statements. The current proposed amendments go some way to identifying the victim\u2019s needs, but this would actually give genuine victim voice. Sentencing indications are quite well known. It\u2019s quite common for a defendant to go to court and say, \u201CCan you tell me what I might get and that might influence my plea.\u201D It\u2019s kind of a bit transactional, but I get it. Of course, if they say, \u201COh, look, home detention is likely.\u201D, then they might plead guilty\u2014particularly if they live in Parnell\u2014but if the victim says, \u201CHome detention does not reflect my family\u2019s anguish at the loss that we\u2019ve suffered.\u201D, then it strikes me that that\u2019s a relevant consideration. That\u2019s the first part of that. The second is the views of the victim concerning any restorative steps taken by the offender\u2014for example, an apology, compensation, or non-financial redress. I know we\u2019ve discussed rewards, but this is somewhat different. If the victim has met with the offender or undertaken a process and says, \u201CI was in the room and we discussed everything and I have a degree of forgiveness or understanding and that should impact the sentence.\u201D, then that strikes me as highly relevant. I\u2019m inviting the Minister to seriously consider that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe second thing\u2014and I\u2019m saying this now, and I\u2019ll tell you why I\u2019m saying it now, because I\u2019m kind of jumping ahead of myself. It\u2019s so that\u2014because I suspect we\u2019ll go over the adjournment\u2014the Minister can think carefully about this and come back with a genuine answer, and it\u2019s this: the 40 percent, where does it start? If you take a crime such as ill treatment of a child or vulnerable adult, it has a maximum 10-year sentence. What\u2019s the maximum discount that we can get off that? Does it mean that the maximum discount is 40 percent of 10 years or does it mean that the judge does an initial exercise about the offence and finds this magical thing called \u201Cthe starting point\u201D\u2014whatever that means\u2014and then it\u2019s 40 percent of that. The starting point could itself be five years for that particular offence, so is the discount 40 percent of five years in that case or 40 percent of 10 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s actually a question that goes to the very heart of this. There is no reform that will be more scrutinised by the courts than sentencing reform, because it\u2019s all that it\u2019s about. It\u2019s about what courts do. The courts and lawyers and defendants and prosecutors need to know where this discount starts. Does it start from the 10 years, which ends up with a six-year sentence? Or does it start at this other magical place where the judges toss up the considerations which are not pertinent to offenders and might arrive at, say, five years, which means you\u2019ll get a maximum two-year discount, in which case it would be a three-year sentence. There is nothing more important that will happen in this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not going to even dream that the Minister would answer that immediately, but I would desperately like an answer to that question in the course of this committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00221208ff9d018c475e9d45af35ff3b9251\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221208ff9d018c475e9d45af35ff3b9251\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I sort of got a response from the Minister of Justice, but not very clearly in terms of the statutory interpretation question asked in terms of the cross-heading above clause 6(1) and also in terms of the definition of \u201Cadult\u201D. I think a response for that would be very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI know that Dr Tracey McLellan and the Hon Dr Duncan Webb are also waiting for some of the questions that they have been asking as well, but I want to actually pick up on clause 6(1), and particularly the newly introduced paragraph after section 9(1)(ca), section 9(1)(cb), which talks about what I find one of the most complex and one of the most interesting parts of the Crimes Act\u2014which is section 66\u2014around party liability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe Minister has introduced party liability, particularly when we\u2019re looking at section 66(1)(b), (c), and (d). As the Minister would know, section 66(1)(a) is the person actually performing the offending\u2014or is actually the one who is offending\u2014as opposed to the rest of them, being a party to it. I want to check with the Minister on two things when it comes to party liability\u2014understanding there is a lot of work being done with party liability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe first thing is around the concept of withdrawal when it comes to party liability. Now, this was a big deal in 2014 in the Ahsin v R case. In this particular case, you had two women, Jamie Ahsin and Raeleen Rameka, who encouraged, initially, in the first part of the process, but then withdrew and backed off in the second part. This went all the way up to the Supreme\u00A0Court. The majority\u2014when we get to some of the higher courts\u2014discussed that the recognition of withdrawal must be as a true defence, not necessarily that you\u2019re just kind of backing off halfway, and was unable to negate the element of section 66 because it cannot undo the complete actus reus at the point of participation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, this is a really important thing. I understand the intention of why the Minister would like to introduce something and introduce party liability as part of the aggravating factor\u2014particularly in light of other things like ram raiding, etc., which I\u2019m sure the Minister can tell everyone about\u2014but the idea of being able to withdraw part-way through and then being able to be acquitted of party liability is something that the court system currently still struggles with understanding. For example, in this case, are we potentially looking at a system where the court may have to do something creative\u2014like, where the connection had been broken and the secondary party fully neutralises the participation before the offence is committed or withdrawal would have been motivated and a majority rejects a conclusion? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAll of this is an incredibly important exercise in terms of understanding party liability and how the criminal court will look at party liability. That\u2019s my first question: what is the advice the Minister has received around the concept of withdrawal halfway through, or, when you\u2019re looking at separate events, when party liability is applied?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe other thing around party liability is that, like I said, it already creates some legal challenges for\u2014predominantly, in this case\u2014women also in abusive relationships. Now, when the common law presumption for acquittal of wives who committed crimes in the presence of their husbands was removed, rightfully, there was no defence that can realistically accommodate women in such abusive relationships. While we still have some of these challenges within our current interpretation of section 66 of the Crimes Act\u2014particularly section 66(1)(b), (c), and (d)\u2014it is a concern that we have compounded that issue by introducing elements of that as an aggravating factor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThis would actually have unintended consequences for women who are in abusive relationships, who are unable to say no, and who have unwillingly or inadvertently participated in a crime as part of section 66, because we have no current systems for it. Like I mentioned before, there is no way for them to fully withdraw. Then, on top of that, they get aggravating factors applied as well. You are looking at people who are probably the most vulnerable of our communities being hit by both section 66 of the Crimes Act and, then, on top of that, the aggravating factor in this bill. Can I just get some clarification from the Minister around party liability? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00226e42e28fed70447a910c18366ebaf582\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e42e28fed70447a910c18366ebaf582\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019re coming towards the end of this evening\u2019s discussion, but, in short answer to the questions raised by Dr Duncan Webb, the discount would not be from a maximum sentence. That\u2019s not the intention. The starting point will apply in practice. Sentencing is a judicial process based on common law, within the framework and requirements of the Sentencing Act. There\u2019s a rule of thumb, as it were, that has come through the common law. For example, an aggravated assault might have a maximum penalty of X, but in these circumstances, at that level, with these consequences for the victim of that assault, the starting point might be X\u2014eight years or something like that. That is the starting point from the 40 percent discount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, of course, it is possible that different approaches could be made to the starting point, and if we were to discover after three years that suddenly the starting points for all the sentences suddenly halved, then Parliament and the Government would be left making different conclusions. There are many other things that Parliament could do if it felt like that message wasn\u2019t getting through, but I have every expectation that the process\u2014the normal process for setting a starting point\u2014has been well established in the common law framework, and that would be the starting point for the discounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9c98e266f5a4b87ab67ff7bad68e3f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9c98e266f5a4b87ab67ff7bad68e3f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to report progress\u2014I think my clock here is just a little bit faster than that one up there\u2014so I will now report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002288440fc50add40a381e3177c467fe882\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288440fc50add40a381e3177c467fe882\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill and reports that it has made progress on the bill. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb0e5f08dfb14acaa95f40f1fd09e379\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb0e5f08dfb14acaa95f40f1fd09e379\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for further consideration in committee next sitting. Members, the House stands adjourned until 2\u00A0p.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025030425104a90547649659a39aa58b2ef9924000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.55 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"