"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2442fd4c26d4b0690c93f476ac2ec5e\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 25 MARCH 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e6967bb52204f47bbbd72b9ff3bb4ab\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 25 MARCH 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225847c7a81f0944978ff2556fec496b8f\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022061758427318443eb63c3a4c2dac103b\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022394f2e0136084e23af1bc4ed1b8c1201\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022394f2e0136084e23af1bc4ed1b8c1201\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (Deputy Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dfecb3e3dc2a457186e142359bb164ca\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d44ab6dcf97b476b97becb8bdcd865c5\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00227d9552ced18a4cf8b9a561e65cff4bc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d9552ced18a4cf8b9a561e65cff4bc9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Eleven petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002219be2ab5f6b04e8ca00ecbae2bfe6106\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219be2ab5f6b04e8ca00ecbae2bfe6106\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Allan Wallbank requesting that the House compensate landowners for carbon they sequester from their indigenous forest\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Speak Up for Women requesting that the House define that \u201Csex\u201D in the Human Rights Act 1993 has the biological meaning\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Christina Gillmore requesting that the House establish nationwide regulations and standards for laser tattoo removal\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Problem Gambling Foundation of New Zealand requesting that the House prohibit the advertising of gambling in Aotearoa New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Tamati Warmington requesting that the House refer MP David Seymour\u2019s actions on 10 February 2025 to the Privileges Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of James Bond requesting that the House require hospitals to notify the police immediately if a patient has an unexplained injury\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Heather Tanguay requesting that the House urge the Government not to reintroduce semi-automatic weapons in New Zealand when the Arms Act is rewritten\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Duran Nair requesting that the House of Representatives urge the Government to add skilled trade occupations, including welders and other essential trades, to New Zealand\u2019s Green List\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Scott Savage requesting that the House urge the Government to pay each survivor $3.5 million for the abuse experienced while in the care of the State\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Walter Hicks requesting that the House urge the Prime Minister to advise the Governor-General to dissolve the 54th Parliament of New Zealand and call a new election\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Dannielle Davis on behalf of He Tangata Facebook group requesting that the House urge the Prime Minister to remove David Seymour from his portfolios.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229af3b5f4999b48fa96c7e2cafdb0b698\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229af3b5f4999b48fa96c7e2cafdb0b698\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s very good. I\u2019m sure the House will gather itself after that and look forward to similar affirmation from the public for themselves. Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. There have been four papers delivered by Ministers for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002231f26f5ac4a242ff890a20d91b8ab767\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231f26f5ac4a242ff890a20d91b8ab767\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment responses to the petitions of: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EChristian van der Pump\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EAnne Henderson, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EStop Institutional Racism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment response to the report of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on its review briefing on the 2022-23 annual review of Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori (M\u0101ori Television Service).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002213e15c4a4dee47ab92bc5a5252113be3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213e15c4a4dee47ab92bc5a5252113be3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the reports of the Ombudsman, entitled:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe Chief Ombudsman\u2019s Reflections on the Official Information Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOIA timeliness obligations: Compliance and practice in Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet Te Tari o te Pirimia me te Komiti Matua\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOIA timeliness obligations: Compliance and practice in Health New Zealand Te Whatu Ora\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOIA timeliness obligations: Compliance and practice in Kainga Ora Housing New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOIA timeliness obligations: Compliance and practice in the Pharmaceutical Management Agency Te P\u0101taka Whaioranga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOIA timeliness obligations: Compliance and practice in Department of Internal Affairs Te Tari Taiwhenua\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOIA timeliness obligations: Compliance and practice in The Treasury Te Tai \u014Changa\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOIA timeliness obligations: Compliance and practice in Transpower New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002228521cc501854b139c2121bf5d798938\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228521cc501854b139c2121bf5d798938\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I also present the annual report of the Commissioner for Parliamentary Standards for the year ending 31 December 2024. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Twenty-five select committee reports have been delivered for presentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6b4eae208e744cab9142e0e464f9741\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6b4eae208e744cab9142e0e464f9741\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReports of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on the 2023-24 annual reviews of:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECallaghan Innovation\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Growth Capital Partners Ltd\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECommerce Commission\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMeteorological Service of New Zealand Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Health Committee on the 2023-24 annual reviews of the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMinistry of Health, and\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EPharmaceutical Management Agency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Justice Committee on the 2023-24 annual reviews of the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECrown Law Office\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EDepartment of Corrections\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EElectoral Commission\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EHuman Rights Commission\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EIndependent Police Conduct Authority\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EParliamentary Counsel Office\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EPublic Trust, and\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EChild Protection (Child Sex Offender Government Agency Registration) Amendment Bill and the Report of the Attorney-General under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on the 2023-24 annual review of Te Puni K\u014Dkiri\u2014Ministry of M\u0101ori Development\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Parliament Bill Committee on the Parliament Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Deb Hayes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Erin Tiplady\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Kath McDonald\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Primary Production Committee on the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Regulations Review Committee on the Parliamentary Counsel Office Annual Report on Legislative Practices 2023-2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Social Services and Community Committee on the 2023-24 annual reviews of the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMinistry of Disabled People, and \t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMinistry of Social Development \t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2023-24 annual review of Auckland Light Rail Ltd\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EBuilding (Overseas Building Products, Standards, and Certification Schemes) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022914850b2b473436cabf0603530741df7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022914850b2b473436cabf0603530741df7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bills are set down for second reading, and the Annual Report on Legislative Practices 2023-2024 is set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of a bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00222008233acbfd42ea9ec747428050cd28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222008233acbfd42ea9ec747428050cd28\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPlain Language Act Repeal Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022af0765e1e6e948bdbaa583ff52a0736e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af0765e1e6e948bdbaa583ff52a0736e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for first reading. [Interruption] You ready?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022522e75ed346b4408b67ea23cc4713780\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Yep. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216d3bd591d804cf1b3e3d5f465b335d5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good\u2014well, you\u2019re next. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8465be8db2e42a5902436f625b48478\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acd4d989d4db485fadc87c1a653d08b4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s all right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002216cbd39cfda14738a433ee5e014dff6c\u0022\u003EParliamentary Service Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e10c14f7bea4fb4b5d861b2f986e7f9\u0022\u003EMembership\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022a40c2da49bb0423ab82967b33040b483\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a40c2da49bb0423ab82967b33040b483\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move a motion without notice and without debate regarding membership regarding the Parliamentary Service Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e80ea6d1f24543b09d449cf6d5e03de1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f669233775b445f1939fb41cf8d3e287\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That under section 15(1)(d) of the Parliamentary Service Act 2000, Glen Bennett be appointed as a member of the Parliamentary Service Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3e10577032449bba89694c40e0e714e\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd9edcfdd6074453bf6692d8fd7c3d57\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbe1c1113d584dc3801eb847fd9afbd8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00221ab52cb571d345408471a21aa5b26778\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E1.\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ab52cb571d345408471a21aa5b26778\u0022\u003E Rt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00224febf08cbfda40e4a59f3c8ec139037c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224febf08cbfda40e4a59f3c8ec139037c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially our actions to go for growth. Wasn\u2019t it absolutely great news last week to see Stats New Zealand confirm that the economy grew by 0.7 percent to finish 2024, with the first increase to GDP per capita in two years. We know that growth matters, on this side of the House, and more growth means more jobs, higher wages, more opportunities for all New Zealanders to beat the cost of living and to get ahead. That\u2019s why just in the last two weeks we\u2019ve been at it hard, fighting hard for trade in India, making sure we\u2019re taking action to scrap and replace the Resource Management Act, and hosting investors worth trillions of dollars here in New Zealand so that we can build the roads, energy, and homes Kiwis need to thrive. There\u2019s always more to do, but it\u2019s very exciting to say that growth is back, and I\u2019m sure that member, in a bipartisan way, would fully support and endorse those comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fddc27d9aa14fea9ed76d0503ce45c0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the statement made by Christopher Luxon in September 2023 with regard to the school lunches programme: \u201CWe\u2019re very supportive of it. I just want to make sure that I\u2019m sure it can be improved, I\u2019m sure it can be optimised, I\u2019m sure it can be enhanced.\u201D; if so, is he confident that the school lunches programme has been \u201Cimproved\u201D, \u201Coptimised\u201D, and \u201Cenhanced\u201D under his Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f762b1e084a94a0b87f8bb1ce356679e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The free lunch programme is there so that hungry kids going to school can actually focus and get something to eat so they can learn. There\u2019s been some practical issues, which the Associate Minister of Education\u2019s working his way through very well, and again I just say I think it\u2019s fantastic that savings have been generated, and those savings can be generated back into health and education to help support our kids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbbdb06392b8486a8851cee9b8e838b2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Government select Libelle and Compass to deliver the school lunches programme, given Libelle had lost nearly 60 percent of the schools it had been serving under the old programme due to quality concerns, and Compass had lost 23 of the 53 schools that it was serving?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228453d5893add4332b134d8ae54d0a73c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: There was a standard procurement process. But if the member wants to direct more specific questions, feel free to direct it to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260d5a4be023e4fe2aaa40a5055c530b0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: So why did the Government\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c09d18f9b89246929066a5400c175d2e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, just a minute. If questions are serious enough to be answered, they should be listened to, by and large, quite seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d84f378f9324eecb3fe36e62143c263\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Government ignore official advice that Compass had failed to meet the nutritional standards required in more than half of the assessments of its meals under the previous programme and had prolonged issues with undersized meals and inconsistent portioning, while Libelle had been the subject of 163 complaints about food quality, food safety, and food suitability?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022442fd380d44f4c28b740f5039799fcef\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member would understand that I don\u2019t have that detail in front of me around a procurement process, but I would encourage him to put his question on notice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022182ed2cc12f64c57a74a489d959cf60c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question\u2014supplementary question. You\u2019ve had three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297f390a7733141e5a2f4ed4ca3ad36bc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Rt Hon Winston Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224478bf180af24a259768307305bacc64\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022887b627724444019ac77968ecb02e038\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can count.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd233b173e2d44bb94f41ee96ac1a077\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, can you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274d549490b4d4728b803398f27c0260a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. Surprising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d879dcaa9cf64a9c98d9cc4cce6dcd62\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m glad to hear that. Can I ask the Prime Minister as to whether he was aware that those three supplementary questions were all written before the primary question from Chris Hipkins, which meant that, no matter what the Prime Minister said, he wasn\u2019t paying attention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022347f4813da2d4cb5b18b1fa6ecc72103\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think that the Prime Minister has any responsibility for anyone else\u2019s concentration span.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eabe087cd8454894a40c70f2b9fbf080\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Good to see he\u2019s awake, though. Does he agree with the statement of Christopher Luxon in August 2023, with regard to the school lunches, that a Government led by him would \u201Cmake sure we get better delivery and better execution\u201D; if so, why did they award the exclusive contract to deliver school lunches to Libelle and Compass, who had amongst the highest rates of uneaten lunches and food waste in the previous programme\u2014almost double the average?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221291aa5c483b42c48915d23c546e9ba6\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, I\u2019d just say to the member, I\u2019m not party to the details of a procurement process. If he wants to put his detailed questions on notice, feel free to do so. But this is a programme that has been able to generate savings that can be redirected back into health and education. Yup, there are some practical issues; the Minister\u2019s working his way through them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254ba9d58275140b78d593aa37af7372d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t David Seymour bother to tell the Minister of Education that the major provider of school lunches, Libelle, was going into liquidation, given he\u2019d found out five days before it happened, yet the Minister was left to find out about that through the media after it happened?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227121eb980df841d3aa3c3256f1bbc0b1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, I\u2019m very comfortable with the delegations and accountabilities that we have between our Ministers. The Associate Minister and I talk all the time. We\u2019ve talked about the school lunches. We\u2019ve talked about many other things as well. I\u2019m comfortable with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022811fe5199d0440a1b81c2d8512f367bf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the statement of Christopher Luxon in September 2023: \u201CI\u2019d work harder on education to make sure we give people healthier choices in the school lunch programme.\u201D; if so, why is the nutritional value of school lunches now being provided consistently lower than under the previous school lunches programme that his Government scrapped?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239a5b72be66d4bcda13ab3ac7ceed7c9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I agree that we are working harder on education, because I remember who was the Minister of Education when kids stopped going to school, when half our year 8s are not at the standard they need to be at on reading, and 80 percent of our kids going into high school are not where they need to be at on mathematics. Who was the Minister for 5\u00BD years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022994e9ffac40445bb956ad7e2d4133148\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that last week the healthy school lunch programme delivered 99.8 percent on-time delivery, and surplus meals of 5.7 percent compared with 9 percent surplus last year, and is he then surprised to hear feedback from a teacher just last night: \u201CThe meals are varied, wholesome, and, in my opinion and that of the majority of my class, far more filling than last year. They are a meal!\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cd037bf5aa346748c988d80770ce4bc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was more an advertorial than a question, but OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d31d2106b6924e8c80fc1a091b9639fb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just thank the Minister for his hard work in working through the issues so well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddf4bf9bbf604578988cb5c2a674ab48\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Christopher Luxon\u2019s statement in July 2023: \u201CI\u2019m not interested in how much money is being spent; I\u2019m interested in the results that are being achieved.\u201D; if so, is his spending less achieving better outcomes so far?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea6f09b7d313445ea974f351805d9850\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What we\u2019re impressed about is that we\u2019re getting more value for money. The money that\u2019s being saved is going into education and health for our kids and the issues that are being worked through are being worked through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214eb06dc34af4b41b23453252335d3c1\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree that the Government\u2019s approach to the healthy school lunch programme has been agile and adaptive, changing its approach whenever things start to go wrong, which is a lot better than Chris Hipkins\u2019 approach to this line of questioning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b16747693ec404cb3b49b7e00d195ad\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, that\u2019s\u2014none of that question actually complies with the requirements of the Standing Orders, but the Prime Minister may make a brief response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220230758fe95a4d1ab409ec0c96e0efa0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I appreciate that there is a lot of effort going in to improve and work through the issues with the new providers, and I commend the Minister and encourage him to keep going. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022523efe95e73f401e8233c2c429d926cb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When we\u2019re all ready\u2014when we\u2019re all quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224de9971790bf4d1c8246350f9951e0ee\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022333ad26fe3ea4bdca1c1d4ad19d88631\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022333ad26fe3ea4bdca1c1d4ad19d88631\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u002271f7c67f801b40ef986850ea9df45346\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271f7c67f801b40ef986850ea9df45346\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially our action to crack down on criminal activity and to restore law and order. Kiwis are sick of the large discounts and the short sentences regularly handed down, even in instances of serious offending. The good news is that, this week, the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill will return to the House for its third reading. That bill will cap discounts and bring in tougher consequences for serious and repeat offending. It doesn\u2019t stop there, though, for convicted criminals, because the last few weeks have, sadly, shown the longer you spend in prison, the more likely it is you\u2019ll get visited by a Green MP of a convicted criminal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d63eaa33d2d74926b08c66b2744b1d6e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sorry, that last part of that question, the answer is not acceptable. So we\u2019ll have no more of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bfb601104a947d5a71f4d891ea362fb\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Do the companies that the Prime Minister is asking to build our schools, roads, and hospitals want to make a profit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022919611ec747e4a1b9a722453a729848b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they may well do, and I would hope they would want to see a return. But what I\u2019m excited about is that there is massive interest from investors who want to build public infrastructure in New Zealand, and the benefits to New Zealanders economically, socially, and environmentally are profound. If we can pull forward infrastructure development, get more roads built, more wind farms built, more energy delivered, that\u2019s only good for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c41fdc6733e14a0f9b6975d58224324d\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: When our country has to pay for the profit of shareholders on top of the cost of building public infrastructure like our schools and hospitals, does that equation ultimately cost New Zealanders more or less?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdb182ee4a8b4c2f83a0503557f3917a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: This is a strange line of questioning, and it just speaks to the degrowth agenda of the Green Party\u2014the degrowth agenda of the Green Party. Not only do they want to abandon prisons but they now don\u2019t want to grow the economy. To that member: we want investment in this country. It is capital thin. We need to get public infrastructure built. Iwi want to get on and actually get projects built, and private companies in our growth sectors need support too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228181434464546c088a50c78e038661d\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Will the profit that the private companies make through his Government\u2019s intended public-private partnerships stay in Aotearoa New Zealand or go offshore?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227484f0503c8e4372a040dc85b1a3f6d0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, our focus is on attracting investment to New Zealand so we can get public infrastructure built. The member seems to be confused about how economics works. We want New Zealanders to get ahead. We need them with more money in their pockets. We want them to have higher standards of living. One of the ways we do that is we attract investment to New Zealand as well as use domestic pools of capital as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f10d02d39ca94546a74bbe3d2ebf7a2d\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Is it Government policy that profit is a good thing or a bad thing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d1c81fc39d1477ba1c24f4d978e35cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Profit is a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246c9f218614a4b38822f6ab34e13fd0b\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that his plans for public-private partnerships will ultimately, then, cost New Zealanders more and send that profit offshore?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed0c24c6d79c413387455c50ed56a6c6\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. We are looking at the right funding and financing tools and mechanisms to support the right infrastructure. We need to get a lot more infrastructure built in this country. The member may disagree with us, but we are going to grow New Zealand because it\u2019s good for New Zealanders. And part of that is getting infrastructure built faster, quicker, and if we can do that in partnership with private capital, we will. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faed028a82fc45e2a32eeeb2f7588ec0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon David Seymour\u2014are you all right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ff34ddbd8124dcfba779682f4038410\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure he\u2019s fine, Mr Speaker. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff74fa3e4b8742abb4e1589155909114\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, just a minute\u2014wait on. Questions are heard in silence. I thought there was an issue down here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8bb00b99a334671a7448c0c985e276b\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister seen any reports that profit is not a cost that you just add on and charge the customer but a surplus that remains if you do a very good job of using your resources more efficiently, and could failing to understand that be a reason why someone\u2019s one-time business of a little hole-in-the-wall cafe on Mount Eden Road only lasted a few weeks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225e97b72ed42455584895dc8b4b01874\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no. No, just a minute. These little digs across the House are not acceptable, particularly from Government Ministers having a go at the Opposition. It\u2019s also a trend that I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022334538924645496f90561ff36ed97437\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Can\u2019t even run school lunches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f7e739e35384a4587bf88d15a438573\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227faf327eb1bf4285a9837cc3867985d1\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce57e5ed931542cebbf10c5121e72399\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That would be a good thing to be. I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s a trend, but there has been a little bit of a move towards personal reflections, which are completely unacceptable under our Standing Orders, so they are to stop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f3d9850d2b844b3b9207749bc966b4e\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Who can borrow money cheaper: the private companies that the Prime Minister wants to build our public infrastructure, or the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227863b1a3190c44728864da2141edad5c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, as I\u2019ve said to that member, we\u2019re going to find the right funding and financing mechanism that supports the right project. But I make no apologies for wanting to partner with private capital\u2014international or domestic\u2014to get things built for New Zealanders. You may disagree with us ideologically on that point, as a degrowth party, but we want growth in New Zealand, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002233ce7107ae1b4d89a00cb279370967fe\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022d75e1c804db6473f826acab427eb31a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d75e1c804db6473f826acab427eb31a7\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has she seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cabc2f872aa3417c84fa78012df90031\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cabc2f872aa3417c84fa78012df90031\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, Statistics New Zealand released the latest GDP figures. These showed the New Zealand economy expanding 0.7 percent in the December quarter of 2024, led by a pick-up in tourism-related spending. Growth of 0.7 percent in the quarter was stronger than economists were predicting. For example, both the Treasury and the Reserve Bank were forecasting quarterly growth of 0.3 percent. In terms of per capita growth, GDP per person rose 0.4 percent in the December quarter\u2014the first such increase in more than two years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6cca6dfb5924b038ef379edd3326331\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What is the significance of the GDP result?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022636e2443f7294349ac9fb2ec6d9d70f2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The significance is that it marks a turning point. It marks the end of a protracted and painful downturn in the New Zealand economy, and the beginning of an upturn, with per capita GDP having fallen around 5 percent since the third quarter of 2022. From 2021 to 2023, of course, members, uncontrolled Government spending helped push annual inflation to more than 7 percent. Interest rates were hiked to bring inflation down, and there was little to no growth in the economy over the past two years. Inflation is now back within target, interest rates have come down, and last week\u2019s result is the confirmation that growth has returned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ac0b0cbe9444237b188967947e755f2\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What do more recent economic indicators show?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ed9294224e1478a9415f983e766551c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the GDP results are backward-looking: they tell us what happened in 2024. More recent information indicates what is happening this year and identifies positive signs, challenges, and risks. On the positive side, goods exports are doing well and tourism is stronger than expected. The most recent BNZ\u2014BusinessNZ Performance of Manufacturing Index (PMI) indicates that the manufacturing sector is continuing to expand. BNZ economist Doug Steel said that the improvement in the PMI this year is \u201Cone of several indicators that suggests the broader economy is turning for the better.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7262794841f4e3e87f7a50b412b37a4\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What are some of the risks to the economic outlook?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220249fe23021f45d1b23acf7db7818646\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: As members know, one of the biggest risks is from the global environment. The OECD has just reduced its forecast for global growth. In its latest economic update, the OECD warns that rising uncertainty around tariffs will lead businesses around the world to defer investment and that higher prices will reduce consumer spending. That could impact the New Zealand economy. Forecasters expect the economy to continue picking up over 2025, but the journey could be a little bumpy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b54bd999f1e847a09bde22cdb42cf348\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec305beeb6674382b60d72bb467fb728\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec305beeb6674382b60d72bb467fb728\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does she stand by all her statements and actions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022af5f250619444b43b6e04742377889fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af5f250619444b43b6e04742377889fc\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. In particular, I tend to make the same statement to one audience as I do to another, unlike that member, who took so many positions on public-private partnerships last week that she ended up having to apologise for the confusion she\u2019d caused. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221918bb48855e457c9180039b41af5f43\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Nicola Willis, who said in October 2023 that the Government \u201Cwill never hit surplus and debt will blow out even further than it is today\u201D when she has shifted surplus out, will not deliver in the forecast period, and debt is growing under her watch? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fa5005627cf4418893926174a3e54c9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I stand by all my statements, and I welcome this turn of fiscal prudence from the Labour Party, in which, suddenly, for the first time, that member, instead of encouraging me to get out the money hose, is saying that she cares about debt and surplus. Stick to those guns, Barbara. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228739ecb453b5468a90a9e035b80cbc95\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, the Minister of Finance knows that referring to someone by their first name is not appropriate in this House\u2014their full name, if at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0930394e1b847ee8a69f942311914d6\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Nicola Willis, as reported by the media in July 2022, that \u201Cthe government could not keep blaming external events\u201D, and, if so, why is she now concerned about international headwinds? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222ed2788e85f4776a66dab4d045bb9b3\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, because under the last Government, what we had was a spending approach which was so excessive compared to other countries around the world that now numerous studies have shown that our inflation went higher and stayed higher for longer and that our interest rates needed to soar higher to control that, and that was not a result of global factors. It wasn\u2019t global factors that made every former Minister sitting opposite me spend like a drunken sailor on bureaucrats, go-nowhere projects, and wasted initiatives. It was your Government that chose to do it; it drove up inflation, and it caused real pain for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d94bf3838534d12945b6b7acbe88ba2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I\u2019m just going to say this once before anything else comes. The Standing Orders make it very clear that the Government cannot use its own questions or answer questions that are an attack on the Opposition. They can refer to matters that affect their portfolio, but not be an out and out attack that might be more in the nature of a public meeting somewhere. So we\u2019ve just got to calm things down a little bit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d465cd7c696241e8906a042ce34b4d2d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s got to stop with the patsies, then. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229282ac748da847d5a45180bd14d0a242\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: By the same token, the question\u2014I beg your pardon? By the same token, questions that invite political comparison\u2014for example, asking a member, effectively, if they agree with themselves\u2014is virtually like saying, \u201CI\u2019ve got you here.\u201D, and then it\u2019s going to get some sort of answer along the lines of the one we\u2019ve just had. It\u2019s very difficult to walk the balance between the two. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5e30fe51adb45ddbe3334de13f82854\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Nicola Willis that \u201Cwe have\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240327fcd5de943c4a1f89c15d741cc20\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, there we go! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022087088110bfc459886a7eb4338376da3\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Finance. Does she agree with the Minister of Finance that \u201Cwe have huge amounts of Government debt\u201D, or does she agree with her statement at the international investment summit that \u201CWe have relatively low levels of government debt compared to other countries,\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a22176938684623be61418261f0267d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014yes\u2014another set of wise statements by Nicola Willis, because, on the one hand, the previous Government added more than $100 billion to debt with just about nothing to show from it, which I believe was pretty reckless, and, on the other hand, because of the great work by Sir Bill English and other prudent National Party finance Ministers, our debt had started in a low position, and so it ended up in a lower position than some other countries. But if that lot had stayed in, I can guarantee you this: the debt would have got out of control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f47faaf9b1ca4d7e9d04c1ebcd7f5080\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she tell the international investment summit that \u201Cwe need more capital investment\u201D while cutting back Government investment into schools, hospitals, and housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222603f8e0d3874ebb86d80bf8a8c1e109\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The member should be very cautious before she makes statements in this House that cannot be backed up by the facts, and I would sincerely ask her to go back, look at the words she used in that question, and see if she can find factual verification for them, because this is a Government that in its first Budget invested more money in school buildings, invested more money in transport infrastructure, invested more money in housing, such that we have added more than 4,000 public homes since we came to office, such that we have added more classrooms, we have built more schools, and we have more than $6 billion worth of roads under construction. So get your facts right. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f42aa943213486db86d8e2735a9e02f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait. It\u2019s your own colleagues that are holding things up. Just a minute; just a little bit of time here. All right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad4026b1b0734d2e9ecdb2873af1d3d8\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that she says one thing about the Government\u2019s books to international investors but is more than comfortable to say the complete opposite to the New Zealand public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ed5d7e5877849a6997e4b3be461ac38\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: This is like patsy hour! I\u2019ve given the member the answer, and I\u2019ll give it to you again, which is this: on the one hand, we have had years of prudent fiscal management, including by Sir Bill English, who managed to get debt down to extremely low levels. We then had the spendthrift days of the Labour Government, who brought that debt up to 40 percent of GDP, and because we started from a good base, because of the prudent work of previous National Governments, it meant that, relatively, our debt is still quite low compared to some countries in the OECD. But I would caution the member this: New Zealand is a country that is prone to significant economic shocks, be they climatic events, be they seismic events, be they trade-related events. So it has been the longstanding position of both Labour- and National-led Governments that it makes sense to keep our debt at low levels. If the member wishes to depart from that longstanding consensus, I would suggest to her that most New Zealanders would not agree. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e0f0615cd98456583ac9bce7d374b48\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245f9c1f859ff4ce7a97fd8b9c896756a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Rt Hon Winston Peters, just a minute. A question like that will get a response like that, which makes it very difficult to apply in the strictest sense the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b62043ee9f3e4d6a96255e8071609c0f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the finance Minister as to how she\u2019s been able to deal with the much-vaunted promise of economic recovery by mid-2024 of growing GDP, higher wages, higher incomes, higher housing, and the actual facts that she had to deal with when she found out the truth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abd3690371e74ccfb2628da8ddeeb068\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Deputy Prime Minister makes a very good point. I think it is highly regrettable that the previous Government made promises that it had put in place strong economic foundations that would lead to recovery and job creation. The facts are clear. Actually, what they left was record inflation, soaring interest rates, and a crushing effect on the economy, which has led to a very high cost of living for New Zealanders, destroyed jobs, and taken this economy backwards, and we on this side of the House are fixing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1bf0d3cb8f54001bae59c843dbdb5d8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014RMA Reform\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00229a96cf2723914b559169efe37d95c9b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a96cf2723914b559169efe37d95c9b0\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for RMA Reform: What recent announcements has he made regarding the replacement of the Resource Management Act 1991?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00224eb34657ec294d9eb3b0e3d1b063631f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224eb34657ec294d9eb3b0e3d1b063631f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, the Government announced that we have agreed on the shape of the Government\u2019s replacement legislation to a far more liberal planning system with less red tape premised on the enjoyment of property rights. In our first year, we repealed the previous reforms of the last Government and made a series of targeted amendments. We also passed the Fast-track Approvals Act, and now we are getting on with the job of replacing the Resource Management Act (RMA) completely. We set 10 principles for the new system. We\u2019ve received a report from the Expert Advisory Group; I want to thank the chair, Janette Campbell, for the reports\u2014an excellent high-quality piece of work that Cabinet has now endorsed\u2014and we\u2019ll be getting on with developing the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223103c5a98d644dff8aad48b13dbedac0\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: What are the key features of this new, more enabling planning system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddb4a2a1761749abb037a346a96a23f8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Cabinet has agreed to two new Acts, a narrower scope, property rights at the core, simplified national direction, clear environmental limits, more standardisation, streamlined council plans including spatial planning, and stronger environmental compliance enforcement and monitoring. Standardised zoning will be a key feature of the new system, and it might surprise members of the House to learn that across the country there are currently 1,175 different kinds of zones; in the entirety of Japan, there are 13. It\u2019s our view that elected representatives should spend more time focusing on and talking to their communities about where density should and should not occur, and less time focusing on the enormous number of technical details that go into regulating that density. Standardised zones make up just one part of the new system but do give a sense of the ambition that we are aiming to achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af26004657274aa9bfd8398487fead85\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: What are the key benefits New Zealanders can expect to see from this new planning system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e67e6660d6b54cda9f6800b12262fce4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there\u2019s been some preliminary economic analysis done by Castalia which estimates a 45 percent saving in process costs compared to the RMA. There will be further economic work done as policy is developed and as bills\u2014plural\u2014are prepared, and that is before we consider the wider economic benefits. The broader point is this: we need to change the culture of \u201Cno\u201D that permeates decision making in this country. Whether it\u2019s aquaculture off the coast of the South, or a new green six-star building replacing a heritage gravel pit next to a train station in our biggest city, the RMA has obstructed growth instead of enabling it. Our aim is to change that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af27d5fe665645d694b9c654514933ed\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: What response has he seen\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e47d1e1b9e94a9f8db003283a23f298\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute. Away you go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022978345b6291e4b8d877cbb88d608b781\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD\u003C/span\u003E: What response has he seen to this announcement so far?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228598e534d08241409a3571c50c86c78a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s been quite overwhelming in terms of support. The Employers and Manufacturers Association said they strongly support the direction of travel: \u201CThe proposed changes will allow for more efficient development\u201D. The Planning Institute welcomed the announcement: \u201CSpatial planning \u2026 is a no-brainer. This will be a game changer for proactive planning\u201D. Business New Zealand also welcomed it. Following announcements yesterday, today I have written to the relevant spokespeople from the Opposition, from Labour and the Greens, inviting their involvement in the process to replace the RMA. Our core policy intentions remain obvious, but we do want to try and work\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb884bf40d0f47d196cabdbfdb3058d7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: You said yesterday you weren\u2019t going to listen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244ae8689afbe466a82a9c67b9690f94c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Judith Collins wrote to David Parker in 2021. We\u2019re still waiting for a reply, so we have reached out in good faith and I\u2019m looking forward to meeting with the relevant spokespeople and providing a briefing from the chair of the expert group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b19c7c43dc554e3599b958cc902fa4f6\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government going to protect property owners from busybodies seeking to impose restrictions on their enjoyment of their private property rights?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274626737797941e7b444daa41d97d6fc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is a very good question. The ability for people all over the country to object to quite minor developments is one of the real battlegrounds in the RMA right now. For example, I saw people in I think it was Waipukurau objecting to the building of a McDonald\u2019s in W\u0101naka. Why the people of Waipukurau get to have a say on what gets built in W\u0101naka is beyond me. The entry points for people into the system are too easy. Participation should be targeted at the plan-making process. Of course, only those materially affected by an activity will be able to participate in consent processes, and there\u2019ll be more limits around the notification process. We don\u2019t need every Tom, Dick, and Harry trying to have a say in how people use private property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229055c370902849f5a4916d19b2c3a74c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hold on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f15a1051da04bc4b346863685e96211\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Minister, how is the Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f7832e5fe5b42b388fc8d817ede3069\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hold on. Just wait on. I\u2019ll call you. Simon Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eb7ab4973374e99a28dbec194ad11c7\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government going to ensure people can get on with building, developing, and farming without having to get consents for everything?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022326316ba42734e9e9cdf63624bf7ca73\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: There will be fewer consents required as the system is more permissive. The new Acts will also not control as many effects and there will be a higher threshold for those it does control, focused on the economic concept of externalities. There will be more standardisation of plans. Spatial plans and national policy direction will make it clearer where environmental constraints are and where they aren\u2019t. Where councils want to impose regulatory controls on private property that have a regulatory impact akin to a taking, there will be compensation required, because the free ability of councils to impose regulatory restrictions that devalue land on private property has led to regulatory overreach by councils doing exactly that. On this side of the House, we believe in private property as the foundation stone for a market economy that grows over time. That\u2019s what the RMA changes will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c1a860a034f455ea9def63e982ff7b6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Economic Growth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00221528b61f5d70467f8c3e9a73c2aaa308\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221528b61f5d70467f8c3e9a73c2aaa308\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Growth: Does she agree with the statement of Hon Nicola Willis, \u201COn our watch there may be fewer people wearing lanyards on Lambton Quay, but there are going to be a lot more people wearing high-vis and hard-hats\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e92d8b6cbd73485f884dfd6f6b83fcb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e92d8b6cbd73485f884dfd6f6b83fcb4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister for Economic Growth):\u003C/span\u003E Can I first welcome the member to her new role. Yes. That statement was said in a previous capacity, during a time in which I was the Minister for the Public Service, and I am happily informed by the current Minister for the Public Service that the Government is continuing in our success in moving roles from the back office to the front line, with a significant reduction in money spent on lanyard-wearing consultants and an 8 percent reduction in policy roles, which has allowed us to invest more in front-line roles, including more than 2,000 additional front-line nurses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225219334ff89243968c22f1820d28897f\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Why has there been a reduction of over 13,000 people working in construction, wearing high-vis and hard hats, since her Government took office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e78d0ad12b074c61a8fe338ff0ae6c12\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the member might use this dubious statistic that a number of members opposite have been using in their media releases and so I would encourage the House to listen. Certainly, the construction sector has been affected by the downturn, but she is over-egging the impact of jobs, because she is using a novel data series that Stats New Zealand says only \u201Chas provisional status\u201D. What Stats New Zealand says are the most reliable job-related statistics for New Zealand come from the quarterly employment survey (QES) and over the last year\u2014that is December 2023 to December 2024\u2014the QES shows a slight increase in construction jobs, up by 400.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9a8da7ff7bd402c8c3956c8fed49a28\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Engineering New Zealand Chief Executive Richard Templer, who said the pipeline of infrastructure work had \u201Call but dried up\u201D and that it was having \u201Ca devastating impact on the profession\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9ed6360cc3f4abc96a69c2e77cd9576\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: What I do agree is that when interest rates soar as high and quickly as they have in recent years, one of the most sensitive sectors is construction, who, when those interest rates are high, are less likely to borrow for more projects. That has certainly had an effect on the New Zealand economy and many people in the construction sector have felt it. However, I would also note that, since coming to Government, we have built more than 5,171 social houses. [Interruption] We have more than $6 billion worth of New Zealand Transport Agency projects in construction. See, the members laugh because they are so unacquainted with the facts that when I use them, they find it laughable. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbb58cb0d2394da38c8b8ee19c746b14\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please stop. That barracking will stop like that. The Minister will pick up her answer halfway through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286854211304b4b9aa0240d2c08697132\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: I totally respect, sir, your role in maintaining order in the House. However, when we have a situation where the Prime Minister has previously claimed in this House to have built so many houses, the housing Minister has said in this House that they have funded none, and now the finance Minister is making a similar claim, what option have we got but to call that out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220506b9ac11f456e8406589444e229f9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You do have an option, and that is to refer the matter as a matter of privilege. Misleading the House is an extreme breach of privilege and if the member thinks that it\u2019s happening and Ministers are doing that, then he should bring a privilege charge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef3797a0a9824037b4b445aa1aaf8a32\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I do feel my honour has been impinged, so I would like to refer the member to the source, which is the change in public homes dashboard, which shows the net change in total public homes, December 2023 to January 2025: 5,171 homes added, including 4,096 K\u0101inga Ora public homes and 1,075 community housing providers public homes. Those are the numbers I\u2019m relying on. I don\u2019t know which ones he\u2019s using. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce2b3f65dbfa40edb187b32e5ce71504\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just make the point that that\u2019s the last time someone is going to use a point of order to attack another part of the House. That\u2019s not acceptable. [Interruption] Excuse me. Put your hands up. Who wants to go? [Interruption] Mr Bishop, do you want to go on your way? I\u2019ve made the point, and I think people should just take it on board. Ginny Andersen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d96d2a906b4f4f6cb12a1aa999a649c0\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Why did her Government suspend\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278b6f54e5da7434aaf9f86b5e855b712\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker? I hadn\u2019t finished my answer. We had the back of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254c8dc1e605e40c5b363efb5bf4aea6d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, well, I\u2019d finished listening to it. [Interruption] And that is disorderly. Don\u2019t do that. When the House goes quiet, ask your next question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc14634892b74bb7a84f88a72e609e2d\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Why did her Government suspend K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s build programme when the construction sector themselves warned the \u201Cindecision or pause [for] K\u0101inga Ora is actually contributing to the recessionary effect on the construction sector.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d46894fd19dc4c6cb55c542840256f87\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: This is a very important point and it\u2019s one that I would encourage the member to get acquainted with the facts on, because I have seen that this is an issue that has caused a lot of consternation for members opposite. Go and look at the public housing dashboard. What that shows is in the period since December 2023, more than 5,000 public homes have been added, and that is because the K\u0101inga Ora build programme has continued. In addition to that, at the last Budget, our Government\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f32e9ba1601d4eae831803e738fda620\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, stop. It can\u2019t carry on. Keep asking questions if you want to, but barracking across the House is not helping, nor is the intensity of the answers being given. Factual answers: good; heavily emotional answers: not good. The Minister may continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022489a4f6261324f2f93f6565a5435f5c7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: In addition to that, in our first Budget, the Government made additional funding available to deliver social housing places from community housing providers, and I am advised that since December last year, more than 1,075 new community homes have been added to the public housing stock. So I welcome a debate with the member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d32b0487d6864ea48bfac2ce8dc498b8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ll have delivered homes that are not yet funded for\u2014that\u2019s just wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204ddb7d9ccf647998acdceb72afc238b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but to say that we have stopped building public houses is factually, completely, wrong, and Mr Hipkins should stop saying it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ef07ef9462441058f3243eb9c41894f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker\u2014point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, the Minister has just made a very misleading claim in the House herself, where she talked about funding that her Government had allocated for some new social housing and then said how many had been delivered. The new funding the Government\u2019s allocated doesn\u2019t come in till next year, so she\u2019s made a claim that is simply not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c37a160fa554ffc8cf5e6a3a3de3b6f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And there will be\u2014obviously I can\u2019t know that, but there is a remedy for you if you choose to use it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc20e182aed740e8877bd4ca2a4f5cb7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: In the interests of planning going forward, could the Minister tell us as to whether there\u2019s been any period in the last 40 years where the housing construction has shrunk in the way it did between 2020 and 2023?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc2e2c74cd8744d4b5d6844d938139ce\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Deputy Prime Minister highlights a very important point, which is one of the most difficult periods, of course, for the construction sector\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b4ff0af6448449cb6db04b57512aecc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on. Wait on, sorry. We\u2019re just going to go into silence for the rest of this brief answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb5c75fbf2845d7a193dfc2a8e0a16c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: A very difficult period for the construction sector was during the lockdowns, during COVID-19, and, subsequently, additional challenges for the construction sector have come from very high interest rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbc3db382b0e489894bab8c39cdb7d57\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the National Party\u2019s infrastructure spokesperson Chris Bishop, who said in 2020, \u201Cthe construction sector is crying out for certainty. Jobs literally depend on the Government getting on with the job.\u201D, and, if so, why does New Zealand have the lowest number of people working in construction since June 2021?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e28707f7cda5470a86ed93c80b7754eb\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, I completely agree with the Minister for Infrastructure, which is why as a Government we\u2019ve taken steps to fast track major developments, which those members have opposed. And when the hundreds of construction jobs that result from those projects come on board, I look forward to members opposing those too. It is why we have introduced new reforms to the Resource Management Act, so that construction activity can get under way faster. It\u2019s why we have an extensive programme of reform being led by the Minister for Building and Construction, to make it cheaper and faster to build homes. We are a Government on the side of construction and building and doing it faster. Fewer people like Duncan Webb saying \u201CNo\u201D to supermarkets, and more people saying \u201CYes\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcd1981a01b1425ba3ded0882442e7bb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: How many times do I have to say don\u2019t bring attacks on Opposition members into it before I take some action? I\u2019ll get a ton of letters tomorrow saying I\u2019ve been far too lenient, so I won\u2019t be from this point on. Is this a point of order or a question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f309137deda84e80bbee0dab7a1144f1\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022324561bbbb744a2495feae129dd15069\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, the Hon Chris Bishop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b343f2692864c69917f6b692ea3f8e5\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that in 2024 the Government built more school classrooms than in 2023, with better value for money, through standardised design and modular off-site builds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a5d3727640e4b02a2daa6ded87337bd\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can confirm that. That was a result of the additional $1.5 billion dollars that we invested in school property. The cost, I understand, has gone down from $1.2 million on average per classroom to $800,000 per classroom. Of course, what that means is we can build more classrooms with taxpayer money, which is a good result for New Zealand students and their families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7780ffc2f046ab8384d160851e43eb\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d348e77a03a4d41824099dcf77be8b3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, just a minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d62533bc6b4745d9a8fa94c38a2cf9b5\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: When she said that there would be more people wearing high-viz and hard hats under her watch, was she just referring to people in the National Party caucus?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fcedbbfc3ab4ef993bfa8784a397f0b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c94a1d07066466780d29834df13d7df\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sit down. The question\u2019s out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e6dcd4ed01942ec88f8ce607d1c9c2e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u002224e5c56a92cc4ed28dbe13c0841a830e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224e5c56a92cc4ed28dbe13c0841a830e\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00220415ea057b804d9f9a247346a29d9af4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220415ea057b804d9f9a247346a29d9af4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb1d329341a340b984828de2c7dda29a\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How can he justify Resource Management Act (RMA) reforms that, according to Cabinet minutes, will \u201Crequire changes to be made to settlement redress,\u201D without first having consulted with those iwi settlement agreements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244617a9b721a424ea6ef6d52265a7a96\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: There will, of course, be\u2014we will honour our obligations in our settlements that we have made; there just won\u2019t be a generic open-ended Treaty clause statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232a2f4c0526f49b8a01bd686342f8661\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to the 65-plus iwi we spoke to this morning, who had no idea these reforms were taking place until they saw it on the news last night?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcbf1cb1209b48b3b45abc51cd18fe77\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there has been targeted consultation with iwi since the end of last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8498f6580c24d519c1ca59835194bc2\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How does he plan to recognise Treaty settlements through the RMA reform, when his reform will violate every settlement that has been reached to date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220113051727644481b0a50ab49869278f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I reject the characterisation of that question. This is a Government that wants to get RMA reform and planning under control so we can get things built. I found it very interesting that there are a number of iwi that are actually wanting to work with fast track\u2014for example, because they find the planning laws incredibly frustrating and constraining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7c6d1359c2f4dba96b87183afe6bd42\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Government plan to do if it cannot reach agreements with iwi on potential changes to their settlements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed89e7d06ce24102963634643a51005f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we are going to make sure we change our planning laws, period. It is happening. We are revoking what has been in place. We\u2019re putting two new laws in place. We\u2019ll have our first reading in the House before the end of the year. This is a complex area. We\u2019ve got lots of conversations to have with lots of stakeholders across the piece, over the next few months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226823436df8fe4aa78724cfd78b7ee510\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that the Minister responsible for RMA Reform has written to many iwi on many occasions about RMA reform, and that the Minister has extensive meetings with the pou taiao branch of the Iwi Chairs Forum in relation to these matters on a regular basis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220570969440bd4648b6dcf582edb7f751\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can, and that\u2019s why I don\u2019t understand where the members questions are coming from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022389720b8fc52465687d0ea46da58e57f\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister advise the House which iwi said that they support the changes that are being proposed to the RMA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b1b10f30af8424e86c18c2c13b85ea9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they haven\u2019t seen the changes. What we\u2019ve announced is a high-level approach that Cabinet has taken decisions around to actually rewrite our planning laws, because we need to get things built in this country. I\u2019m sure there are many iwi, as we\u2019ve seen through the fast-track process, that actually want to be freed up so they can actually build things in partnership with others, as we\u2019ve seen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfb16b88265e4a3eb782587a2ac75aba\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Prime Minister guarantee to New Zealanders that these reforms won\u2019t ignite further legal action from iwi against the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3d29b232eb04059bb1356973e54afe4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019ve seen iwi, actually, through their partnership with us in the infrastructure investor summit recently\u2014we\u2019ve seen iwi submitting projects under the fast-track legislation because they want to get things built and done. We\u2019re very aligned on that; we both want to get things done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b760b26c7d94215925dfe907a09ca39\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Prime Minister explain to iwi that he deeply acknowledges the power of the M\u0101ori economy, but not their Treaty rights under iwi settlements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a495570a7d1c4749a6cf95f3efa81dba\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, can you repeat the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223112e8cd6694928a1d77f521e48fc6f\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Prime Minister explain to iwi that he deeply acknowledges the power of the M\u0101ori economy, but does not acknowledge their rights within the iwi settlement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4944a13f56344a281768990317551ed\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I reject the characterisation of that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7cd247ec44e4ed392bd4d95df8a74fd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Prime Minister: is it not the fact, though, that the M\u0101ori people can be assured things are on the change, as Hone Rankin recently said, because they are sick and tired of this sort of woke leadership from certain parts of M\u0101ori politics and they\u2019re coming back home?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222362a0e30e4148278b2f47f4350d6534\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can just say M\u0101ori, or non-M\u0101ori, want this Government to deliver for them and improve outcomes. One of the ways we do that is we change our planning laws because it\u2019s been holding New Zealand back for a very, very long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e5b9e7e89824a60a4ad11d6ce086665\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Internal Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u0022659ed9841c1147d39ceed8a02d81cebb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022659ed9841c1147d39ceed8a02d81cebb\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Internal Affairs: What recent announcements has she made about the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022371f61f259714b7286d5a1f574635f2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022371f61f259714b7286d5a1f574635f2a\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Five years ago today, New Zealand was placed into COVID-19 alert level 4, or \u201Clockdown\u201D\u2014a decision made by the Government at the time that had significant impacts on families, businesses, health, and education. Last year, I announced there would be a second phase of the independent inquiry into COVID-19 to cover outstanding matters of public concern, including the use of vaccines and lockdowns. The inquiry is now open for submissions from the public. Today, on the anniversary of the first lockdown, I reminded all New Zealanders that they have the opportunity to tell the inquiry how the Government\u2019s response to COVID-19 impacted them, their family, and their business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224315578c57fa4266a71e379e79cb278f\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: How can members of the public submit to the inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201448d059fed4ff08280b52002dcf02d\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is easy for any New Zealanders to make a written submission about their own personal experiences living through the COVID-19 period. This could include how they were impacted as an individual or their family or their business. Submissions can be made through the online portal at covid19inquiry.nz\u2014submissions close at midnight, 27 April.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abb7c5f9c8494fbfb6733b09290af93a\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: What issues are in scope of the inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290cf3c4968dd4048adf055a645f2575c\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: ACT\u2019s coalition agreement included a commitment to expand the terms of reference for the inquiry after public feedback. The Government then expanded the scope of phase 2 to include the use of vaccine mandates and safety, public health tools, extended lockdowns in Auckland and Northland, and the impact on health and education. The full terms of reference are available on the inquiry\u2019s website, and I would ask any member of the public to please read the terms of reference before they make their submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224348b11a6666406a8e28ec7aa5e48a7e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Infrastructure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u00224fa8f26a1a8041b98c76db080ac67e28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fa8f26a1a8041b98c76db080ac67e28\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Infrastructure: What recent action has he taken on infrastructure growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002223bdc1596fcd4a00b36dc7bf6d31dd9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223bdc1596fcd4a00b36dc7bf6d31dd9b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister for Infrastructure):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier this month, the Prime Minister and I hosted the New Zealand Infrastructure Investment Summit in Auckland, which was attended by over 100 world-leading investors and construction companies. It was great to have New Zealand firms and iwi leaders there, too. We talked about our infrastructure vision and pipeline, how we\u2019re making it easier to do business here, and other investment opportunities in our growth sectors and the M\u0101ori economy. It\u2019s a real demonstration of our plan for economic growth and was a huge win for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207ee3a65101b4c4ab8bfd25cfb6e3f07\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What announcements did the Government make at the investment summit? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222494d44dfb4947c795cda73591cf8d87\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It was great to announce investable and developable opportunities in public infrastructure, including Christchurch Men\u2019s Prison and the Northland road of national significance, the Northland Expressway. We also announced exciting market soundings for tolling concessions on our roads and the second harbour crossing in Auckland, so we can get expert feedback on how to maximise the efficiency and public benefit of these nation-shaping projects. Of course, we also showcased our long-term infrastructure pipeline, to try and give the private sector confidence to stay here and invest in people, plant, and equipment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bffdcefb8b274c06a9e9fe7b80ceca35\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What tangible outcomes have come out of the summit so far?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219a1bb37d0f343a887354bc178696417\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: There have been many outcomes. To give just a couple of examples: Plenary, which manages more than $100 billion in assets worldwide, is opening an office here in New Zealand. They\u2019ve committed to bidding for public-private partnerships over the next five years, partnering with local suppliers to ensure local businesses benefit. And it was great to see the Italian tunnel company Ghella, which was preparing to leave New Zealand after completing the 16.2-kilometre Central Interceptor. But after the positivity of the summit, they have decided to keep their workers, expertise, and tens of millions of dollars of plant, equipment, and associated services here. It was also great to see the Italian company Webuild. Their executive vice-president said, \u201CThe Italians are coming back.\u201D Fantastic news. They helped build the Tongariro hydro scheme in the 1960s, and the Italians are coming back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac794c6297664fcbb7e67b6a32d078b4\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has he heard about the investment summit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222268adef54fd437c85f1bc7e18157740\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s just an enormous dose of positivity. Civil Contractors\u2019 Alan Pollard said, \u201CThis holistic, united approach renews our confidence in the pipeline. It is what we need right now.\u201D There was also the chairman and CEO of Spanish investor Acciona, Jos\u00E9 Manuel Entrecanale, who said the Government was to be congratulated for bringing investors together at the summit and indicated interest in bidding on the Northland Expressway and the second harbour crossing. And, of course, global investment group CDPQ, which has had an interesting history in New Zealand, was also encouraged by the messages. The Sydney-based managing director, Jean-\u00C9tienne Leroux, said, \u201CWe are looking for predictability and stability. I have been covering this region for more than 10 years and we are now very happy to feel our capital is so welcome in this country.\u201D It was a great success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022775ab1f59cf84664a6d33c22f3a70746\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022331dc0ce6f024fd08aa37a926f3754ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022331dc0ce6f024fd08aa37a926f3754ab\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by his statement regarding the health workforce, \u201Cunderstaffing\u2014more fake news\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7c03951b09b4849b4d6d3dbd98bbe91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7c03951b09b4849b4d6d3dbd98bbe91\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E In the context of talking about Labour\u2019s bloated bureaucracy, yes, as I went on to say\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CThey\u2019ve talked about leadership. All they\u2019re focused on is the bureaucracy. We\u2019re focused on the front line, and on delivery. I will be relentless in my focus on the five health targets and making sure New Zealanders can access their GPs. I don\u2019t stand here not conscious of the challenge in front of me, and in front of this Government, because we know how important this is to every single New Zealander.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddd55058a6754b4386768ef77991233f\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Is it \u201Cfake news\u201D that understaffing at Whakat\u0101ne Hospital means that families are having to travel long distances to access basic maternity care such as epidurals and caesareans, putting pregnant women and their babies at risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233c660a15ff649ca950756d7c26e3967\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: As the member will know, there are always services where there is need for healthcare workers. In that instance, there has been a resignation, I think, of a couple of the surgeons, and that has left vacancies. Health New Zealand is rapidly filling those and intends to have that service up and running again as quickly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d62b52a7b694c4b93908a5dfed9030b\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Is it \u201Cfake news\u201D that a new mother who couldn\u2019t be cared for at Whakat\u0101ne Hospital because of understaffing was taken to Tauranga Hospital where she was told that her care couldn\u2019t be prioritised because they too were understaffed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa6fc4e3d00445feb1eeb3f39ac0af59\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not aware of that particular instance but I suggest the member put that question in writing. Health New Zealand cares for tens of thousands of people around the clock, across the country, and provides care. My mission and this Government\u2019s mission is to ensure that all New Zealanders can access the timely and quality access to healthcare that they all deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223151286832614ca6ab242ef51e12c102\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Is it \u201Cfake news\u201D that palliative care for children is understaffed when there is nobody available to give terminally ill children end-of-life care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211bb5639f780468abd9a6d763502938e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: As that member will be aware, it has been traversed in the newspapers. It is a highly specialised service. There has been a senior clinician who has taken extended leave. Health New Zealand is backfilling with other clinical teams at Starship to ensure that those children get the care that they need. At the same time, they are recruiting for additional roles, and there is work under way around a national model of care for paediatric palliative care, which is, of course, an issue in an area where there is a lot of interest by all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de0607c9a46e4bb1aeb91fb97219f310\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his Government\u2019s decision to spend $216 million on a tax cut for tobacco companies when it would cost an estimated $8 million to fund end-of-life care for children throughout New Zealand, and why won\u2019t he fund it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fae498978694b5297ff4b393e554c29\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: As I just said in my previous answer, there is work under way around a national model of care for paediatric palliative care. This Government has invested significantly more money into health. We\u2019re spending around $30 billion a year in health, and our expectation is that Health New Zealand delivers the timely, quality access to healthcare that all New Zealanders deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ab98b35f4144e97b30817ada8934183\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. In that question, there was an allegation of $200 million spent in tax cuts for tobacco or cigarettes. That is demonstrably false and has been repeated in this House over and over again, and I\u2019m asking you to next time demand that that sort of question comes up with the evidence behind what they\u2019re saying. It is a total and unfathomable lie that it\u2019s got away with for month after month now, and we\u2019re not going to stand here and take it any longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207918dfbb0f348c8a7860bcf52e6574e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if I sat here and required validation or confirmation of any claim that\u2019s made inside this House, the House would make no progress whatsoever as I was wading my way through it. What I would say to you is the same as I said to the Hon Kieran McAnulty earlier\u2014if you believe someone has misled the House by way of statement or allegation, there is a remedy under the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dce43408f4d6487db0eb4bb0341b02c4\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, sir. You are quite right to point out the proper process, and we will pursue that but it is totally inappropriate, regardless of what point any member wishes to make, to accuse another member of lying, and the Rt Hon Winston Peters did just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263869f7e457e47039504f8e5e8def9a4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I was listening very carefully\u2014very carefully\u2014and there was a general statement that the claim that was being made was being made too frequently in this House. It wasn\u2019t directed at any particular member, as I can recall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db7e84b037a543a38cb5f44c07e46529\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to that, sir. There\u2019s only one member that he\u2019s referring to, and that is the member who was asking the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b5db0c1024349b7ba9622bcdcc6bb50\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I\u2019ve heard it said by many members, actually, over the last 18 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae378cc08897452197e12f03cf40c71e\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: When any member says that a statement is a lie, is it your ruling that that is appropriate language in this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e687f1d0af64c2db55eeaba7bf883d2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he didn\u2019t say it was a lie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022915e4b33193348cc8445d4a5efa84213\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: He did, sir\u2014he did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224893b55a124d4ab08831c34ad9a9cba1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Then I\u2019ll look at it and do something about that at a later point. I\u2019m not getting into the argument today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb212881dc4b4b9b9a3a44f9df31d3ab\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: How can New Zealanders have confidence in his leadership when hospitals are having to operate without doctors, mothers and children aren\u2019t getting the care they deserve, and he stood up in this House and called understaffing \u201Cfake news\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aef5806ad9a48cfa0cd7baadb1deb95\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said in my primary answer, I was referring to the bloated bureaucracy which the last Government focused its six years on while wait-lists ballooned. They let wait-lists balloon, they removed the targets, and they focused on bureaucracy, rather than on delivery. That\u2019s what I\u2019m focused on\u2014getting this thing fixed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022355924e24a4e41b7973fda82238a0d96\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Why won\u2019t he just apologise for those comments when every single day there are more real-life examples of mothers and children going without care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022302f2535876041adb3d4715077fb850f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: If that member wants to talk about wait-lists, we can talk about the 2,500 percent increase in people waiting for elective treatment under that Government. We are turning the health system around. We\u2019re investing more money. We\u2019re making sure we are putting the focus back on front-line services rather than the bureaucracy that he and his Government were focused on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002267166ceb66444c03928cf4c9994659b2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u002249c0e0ab4cd645cb9432757ea494c37f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249c0e0ab4cd645cb9432757ea494c37f\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbdafb9c95524d74b53b604ded751db5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbdafb9c95524d74b53b604ded751db5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcd05c8efea04407b84fe5f1a1b61003\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that millions of dollars of Government funding going to private hospitals to do elective operations could help many more patients if it was invested in the ailing public system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb7a8e94b12a422788f4d2e93037b65c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. Many Governments under different political persuasions have had contracts between Health New Zealand and with private hospital providers. It makes a lot of sense, frankly, when we\u2019ve got things like knee replacements, hip replacements, cataract surgeries, to use the private hospital capacity as well. When you\u2019re lying on a bed, looking up at a ceiling, you\u2019re less hung up as to whether it\u2019s being done in a public system or a private system; you just want relief done as quickly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f0cf73225304d4aa1e304c8f87b9453\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Then, does he agree with Dr David Bailey that \u201CHad that money been available over the last 12 months, we could have treated many more patients than they are going to do with this. This is a political move to make them look good.\u201D, and, if so, will he instead put this money into the public health system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a658e4530364c709c51d8d16ea138eb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I\u2019ve just explained to that member, we want to make sure we have a very strong public healthcare system, but we also use private health system capacity in order to deliver for patients. What matters most here is patient outcomes. Given the remarks I\u2019ve just heard, I just would point to the former Minister of Health, who said, in 2020, \u201CI am not opposed to the use of private providers to help speed up treatment.\u201D Of course, that was the Leader of the Opposition, Chris Hipkins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a95062191184d15b8b249b07ebd3ce7\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think New Zealanders will be happy to know that our collective resources are being spent on helping private companies make profit off healthcare?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f077e9b2eb844870bcce0530c1e45050\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I think, when New Zealanders are facing massive wait-lists for elective surgeries and getting access to first specialist appointments, what they want is a Government that\u2019s focused on patients and outcomes for patients. And as to how it\u2019s actually delivered for them, they want their issues fixed and they want their service delivered. That\u2019s what this new Minister is focused on\u2014is patient centricity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e7cf34956944863b612a638c511fa54\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Then, did he prioritise equity when his Government decided to invest in private hospitals, considering that this is likely to disadvantage people with acute health needs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3e3552686fc4c93bb10a12ca866206d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member is misunderstanding this conversation and was part of a Government, and a Minister in the previous Government, that also had contracts with private health providers in order to deliver health outcomes for New Zealanders\u2014that\u2019s what we\u2019re focused on. Private healthcare capacity should be used. Public healthcare capacity should be used and continue to be built up. It\u2019s an \u201Cand\u201D, not an \u201Cor\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d619d0963eaf48eeb1196262ffcdec50\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Then, what does he say to the Associations of Professional and Executive Employees union, who gathered at Parliament this morning to warn against the failures of corporately owned private lab testing that results in lab workers being paid less?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5b292398cea4d54bc0d08adf962b1f5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, we are here to deliver outcomes for patients and New Zealanders. If that means we are using public and private healthcare resources and capital and capacity to deliver those outcomes, we will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222311773c5f34479c9ead86018ff3d017\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Trade and Investment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9272b8ae7d64c278355381f7e51aceb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9272b8ae7d64c278355381f7e51aceb\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Trade and Investment: What recent announcement has the Government made regarding New Zealand\u2019s trade relations with India?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u002289608b0b6ce746e087d115f1e2c34216\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289608b0b6ce746e087d115f1e2c34216\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister for Trade and Investment):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, the Prime Minister and I announced New Zealand has formally launched negotiations on a comprehensive free-trade agreement with India. This is a significant breakthrough in the economic relationship, with the last negotiations ending almost 10 years ago. This comes after a concerted period of increased engagement led by the Prime Minister. Through these negotiations, we aim to deliver economic opportunities to benefit all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a8db6ff159a4c9aa303c770dd022712\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: When will negotiations on the New Zealand - India Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement start?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227054bb1f7cd40b8886533e93ef69fff\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yesterday, I published a call for submissions for interested New Zealanders to share their views on the comprehensive free-trade agreement with India. Negotiators will have their first discussions this week and they will start to exchange texts in the coming months, and I expect the first in-person negotiations to take place in New Zealand next month. Both sides have made the conclusion of this agreement a priority, however we\u2019ve also agreed that we must take the time required to secure a high-quality deal that delivers for both New Zealand and India.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221800662c20740c19e59c576f88a1947\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: How will a comprehensive free-trade agreement deliver on the Government\u2019s growth agenda?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de335008072c4baab03d5d1d4375c4dd\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, when we came to Government 16 months ago, we committed to making our relationship with India a priority. Over the past six years, Australia increased their exports to India by $7 billion per year and concluded a trade agreement during that time, while our exports fell by $550 million per year. Since then, led by the Prime Minister\u2019s close relationship with Prime Minister Modi, we\u2019ve lifted our engagement across all levels, including a very important visit by the Deputy Prime Minister, Minister Peters, last year. Every New Zealander can be assured that through our free-trade agreement negotiations, we aim to level the playing field with Australia so that New Zealand exporters can also benefit from greater access and lower tariff rates, which in turn will grow our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e62bedd8d77e491da9bb8a0253191701\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: How else is the Government strengthening ties with India? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222468fda93f2040f2908436cbe6e8e54e\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the comprehensive free-trade agreement or negotiations are only one part of the Government\u2019s commitment to stepping up all parts of the New Zealand - India relationship. Just last week, the Prime Minister led the largest ever trade mission to India\u2014over 120 delegates\u2014during which 33 business memorandums of understanding and six Government memorandums of cooperation were signed. These included Air New Zealand and Air India committing to better air connectivity between our two countries, including direct flights by 2028, and increased cooperation on defence, customs, horticulture, education, sport, culture, and forestry. This is all part of our ambitious goal to lead more trade missions than any Government during this part of Parliament and to double exports by value in 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e9e3819dd8304d27a74f45c561fcae97\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2023/24 Confirmation and Validation) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002262c25e7ebaec4543b76d54bd7547ed2e\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00224b73b097e1244852aeb368c8179a1b6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b73b097e1244852aeb368c8179a1b6d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: I move, That the Appropriation (2023/24 Confirmation and Validation) Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022519216666cdc4422a8131d8ddaef445f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022519216666cdc4422a8131d8ddaef445f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d54247b3bbfe487380837274606141a6\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226472b9d9c8ef4aae925825880d6090e5\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002204d971a17d074b599c1bb5da134f288f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204d971a17d074b599c1bb5da134f288f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the remaining stages of the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill; the third readings of the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill, the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill, and the Land Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill; the remaining stages of the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill and the Customer and Product Data Bill; the third reading of the Arms (Shooting Clubs, Shooting Ranges, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill; and the remaining stages of the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill, the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill, and the Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAgain, I\u2019m not moving urgency with any particular pleasure, but the very necessary amendments to the Bail Act in the Parliament\u2019s last sitting period, which took a considerably longer length of time than, frankly, was required but also was expected, has led us to this point. The first two bills in the urgency motion must both be assented before 1 April, coming up in a few days, so we need to progress the remaining stages this week. There are three bills in the urgency motion the Government has committed to passing by the end of the month, which we will do. The dairy industry restructuring and the social workers registration bills both have provisions that enter into force in May, so we\u2019re looking to progress these measures as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAs I say, the real reason for urgency is the Bail Act amendments in the last sitting period that took up a lot of time. I\u2019m not moving it with any pleasure, but it is what it is. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a7736efb28d54d2ea71be7273977347a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b085b45c96a84e4780144c8e9fe909f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b085b45c96a84e4780144c8e9fe909f0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for further consideration on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002231f5d77a0c764ee987a66c4eee82a2e1\u0022\u003ETaxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa49c2ac78fd48009f826f91f2a1f913\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000317\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 13 March.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022179babc656b44f5aa0e2c247babc2b6d\u0022\u003EPart 4  Amendments to Goods and Services Tax Act 1985, and Schedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d13da66eb9c84f558b3766a615866998\u0022\u003E-\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002245a094760bbc42199699e9d4eb9555ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245a094760bbc42199699e9d4eb9555ab\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 202425, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill. When we were last debating this bill, we had finished the debate on Part 3. Members, we now come to Part 4. Part 4 is the debate on clauses 154 to 186, \u201CAmendments to Goods and Services Tax Act 1985\u201D, and Schedule 1. The question is that Part 4 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022dde6972fcf8642e69a5119e44c28a9fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dde6972fcf8642e69a5119e44c28a9fc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s good to be back here debating the committee stage of this bill. Just to remind the committee, we have been working through it clause by clause\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226641489a3f5a49369d6a45ff4a332d48\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: Question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258c59850a5744680a748ca561eb9ec3e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in a pretty orderly fashion\u2014a very orderly fashion, Mr MacLeod. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI note that we have now been moved into urgency because this whole bill must be passed, as a constitutional matter, by 31 March. The GST section itself doesn\u2019t need to be passed, but the whole bill does. However, I do want to go through some of the amendments that are being made to the Goods and Services Tax Act 1985. Of course, many of the terms used in GST are very similar to the terms used in income tax and other taxes, but there are some notable differences and some real attention to our accounting detail in the GST Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo, just to begin with, I have a fairly simple question for the Minister of Revenue, but, I have to say, it is one that as a former accountant\u2014and I know that the Minister is a former accountant, as well; Mr MacLeod looks quite interested over there, too\u2014I find quite interesting. I want to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to clause 155, which is on page 153 of the bill as reported from the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and it has got a very simple set of changes to definitions in section 2 of the Goods and Services Tax Act. But the one that I\u2019ve found interesting is that in clause 155(2) and (3), we\u2019re repealing the definition of a \u201Ccredit note\u201D and repealing the definition of a \u201Cdebit note\u201D. Now, it does seem like a very, very small change, but, of course, in order to account accurately for GST and in order for a business to account accurately for it, they need to be able to work out what the GST portion is on each transaction and record it in the GST section of their accounting system. Then, where money goes flying back and forth and where, perhaps, goods are returned so there\u2019s a credit note, and further goods are sold, or all sorts of things go on, so that there\u2019s a debit note, it just seems to me that those credit notes and debit notes are basic bookkeeping records. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENo matter how much we have transferred our bookkeeping away from the old-fashioned books and ledgers and the old-fashioned writing it out by hand\u2014which, frankly, is the way that I first learnt to do accounting, which does date me a little bit. We use computers and very sophisticated software to do our accounting, and a lot of the time people can\u2019t even track where a transaction happens. Nevertheless, sitting right beneath it all is that old-fashioned system of books of account, of journal entries, and of those documents of first record, and in the event of an audit\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d79111997c04be0bb3676371030a7c7\u0022\u003EHon Simon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: So what\u2019s your question? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d42835b47204874a9a43f4fc68d51ff\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m getting there, Minister; I\u2019m getting there. In the event of an audit\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a15011d4024b4d628d241932f196b563\u0022\u003EHon Simon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, come on\u2014we\u2019re wasting time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcadd15f359a4a04b78e1675b9172201\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, you can\u2019t call from the chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f386e35dba8407ba2bf4c07daaac2a7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014we actually need to know where those items go back to. We need the evidence of them, and yet here we are, repealing the definitions of \u201Ccredit note\u201D and \u201Cdebit note\u201D\u2014some of these basic accounting records. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo, presumably, something has changed, whether in accounting systems or the like, and those definitions are no longer needed. But I would like the Minister to explain exactly why we actually no longer need something which has been an integral part of our bookkeeping systems for a very, very long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7dfbbf3e1094b0a99d2a9b40a404b81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7dfbbf3e1094b0a99d2a9b40a404b81\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a series of questions which relate to clause 159(1). These are of particular interest to communities in South Auckland who both rely on the port and the airport for jobs. We are very proud to have 16,000 jobs at the Auckland Airport, and half as many at the two ports that function together at the Auckland port and the Wiri port. So I\u2019m asking here about zero-rating of vessels, which is impacted by these rules, but I\u2019m going to ask the Minister of Revenue some particular questions about the impact on workforce because of these changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EJust to explain this, GST has always been intended to be a tax on goods and services consumed in New Zealand, so it would make sense perhaps to zero-rate goods and services that are associated with vessels which are not intended to be in New Zealand for any length of time. This is a change that makes that sort of update, but it will have an impact on not only those places in South Auckland but also on the people who work around them. This bill changes the GST zero-rating rules for international vessels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a technical change, but the real-world impact is that for these people who work in these areas, particularly in the marine jobs, and are represented both by the Maritime Union of New Zealand and other unions in this area and in the aviation sector by the Public Service Association and by E t\u016B, there are some real questions around how jobs will be affected, or if they will in fact have more opportunities to work on international vessels that are here in New Zealand and are sort of transiting because of this effective tax treatment they\u2019re getting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo the services provided directly to commercial vehicles that are temporarily in New Zealand are zero-rated under this. That means that\u2014I assume and want to test with the Minister\u2014repairs, maintenance, refuelling are all included in that. My question is really about: if there is no tax take on those activities, what is the expected outcome on the number of those activities and the impact on those industries, and should this as well include other vessels? Did the Minister consider the effect\u2014if it\u2019s aircraft and ship vessels, does that also include, say, military vessels? Does it apply to goods transiting through Auckland as well, say through China through to South America and using Auckland as a hub? What will be the expected impact of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe workforce questions in particular are around, you know, New Zealand\u2019s strong maritime workforce. We\u2019re incredibly proud of that workforce. Engineers, dock workers, wharfies, fuel supply\u2014all of those people might be impacted by this, and we wanted to flesh out with the Minister how they will be impacted. Does this change bring more ships into our ports to New Zealand for servicing, and, if so, will it increase those work opportunities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThinking through the impact of, say, our maintenance and repair industries, what\u2019s our workforce plan there? These are some of the construction jobs that just this question time we were asking about the impact from the perspective of making sure that we have enough people to work in our maritime industries now. Do we expect the workforce to have significantly different sorts of opportunities, given New Zealand might be more effectively used as a hub for these sorts of services? We know already that many of our ports around New Zealand are used in this way for transiting vessels, and so is there an opportunity here to increase that, and, if so, what is the likely impact on the workforce going to be? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn our shipbuilding industry as well, are we expecting more work in this area, particularly around those shipbuilding hubs like those in Auckland that have grown up over the years with our incredible reputation on the world stage as yacht builders? Will we expect any change there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy final question to the Minister on this is: how do we ensure that any impacts on our industries around the sector\u2014particularly our maritime and ports\u2014make sure to prioritise those skilled workers in New Zealand here first? In many of these large-scale projects with construction and maintenance and skilled work that requires machinist skills in New Zealand for many decades, we have had a reliance on the migration in this sector. So I want to ask the Minister: what will the impact be of these changes and can they be used to benefit New Zealand workers first?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0348c6ec612488a8b6a4bb603530220\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0348c6ec612488a8b6a4bb603530220\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much to the members for their questions. The first question raised was in regards to subclauses 155(2) and (3), the removal of \u201Ccredit note\u201D and \u201Cdebit note\u201D. This is in regards to the supply correction information changes that were introduced as part of the 2022 omnibus bill, which means that, as a result, these two elements are now redundant, and that aspect has replaced that concept within the Goods and Services Tax Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe second question that we\u2019ve had is in regards to the zero-rating of GST on commercial vessels coming through temporarily. I mean, what this is doing is fixing a disparity between the GST treatment that\u2019s applied to the services that are provided to those vessels that are temporarily here in New Zealand. It\u2019s obviously not the intent or the policy intent for GST, too, to be applied to services, particularly where the vessels are merely passing through New Zealand to get to their ultimate destination. The reason for this change is because the consumption of goods and services will most probably occur outside of New Zealand in that context. And ultimately, the change that we\u2019re putting through reduces the compliance costs on foreign entities that operate commercial vehicle vessels here. It is only limited to shipping vessels; it isn\u2019t more broad than that. I do know that the Finance and Expenditure Committee did get into this point in significant or in a reasonable amount of detail, but I won\u2019t repeat that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00226a4b5ab309cb411190841d45ae90c946\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a4b5ab309cb411190841d45ae90c946\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Minister of Revenue for his answers there. As my colleague the Hon Dr Deborah Russell indicated, we are working through this clause by clause. In particular, I want to now, I guess you could say, leap forward to clause 157 and ask the Minister some questions around that, particularly as it pertains to the transfer of an emissions unit and the rules for transferring assets. So what we have here, an emissions unit, for the purposes of the Goods and Services Tax Act, is a unit as defined in section 4(1) of the Climate Change Response Act. And the supply of an emissions unit is almost always zero-rated under the GST Act. However, the technical notes to the bill say there\u2019s an error with the interaction between one of the deregistration provisions in the GST Act in the zero-rating rules. What the bill\u2019s commentary doesn\u2019t go into any detail around, though, is specifically which deregistration provision in the GST Act\u2014what is the mischief that we\u2019re trying to rectify here through these amendments in clause 157?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI guess, as well as that, there are some broader questions around that. Why are emissions units deemed to be equivalent to assets; in what circumstances are they like financial services, which is the broader area that it\u2019s falling under here; and how is the ownership and transfer of emissions units determined? Further to that, just in terms of the policy formulation of this part, whether or not there was interplay between the Minister\u2019s own streams of advice in terms of the market for emissions in terms of what advice he may have received from the example of the Climate Change Commission around what it might do in terms of the ebb and flow of emissions. I mean, we\u2019re obviously talking about secondary markets, but I do just want to clarify that this is just pertaining to the secondary market for units and won\u2019t affect the options as they go through. So it\u2019s quite a small area and there are some very specific questions there. I think, in terms of that zero-rating rules and the deregistration, we are looking for some more clarity on exactly which of those provisions in the primary legislation is the mischief that is trying to be rectified through this clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002298ecc083d995452c8d94e58cad003442\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298ecc083d995452c8d94e58cad003442\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Following on from my colleague\u2019s very learned question, I just want to go back to clause 156, because I do have a couple of questions around 156. Now, what 156 is is it amends section 3A, and that is the meaning of input tax. For people watching along at home, input tax is the amount of GST that\u2019s charged when a business buys goods for use in their own business. So it\u2019s the amount that the business itself pays. It\u2019s a tax on the inputs to the business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a difficulty for people who buy second-hand goods for use in their business\u2014second-hand traders, obviously, because they\u2019re buying from people who aren\u2019t registered for GST. And typically you can claim an amount of GST you\u2019ve paid because someone has charged you an amount of GST. But, of course, if you\u2019re buying from the garage sale down the road, where the person isn\u2019t registered for GST, the way it\u2019s sorted out is you claim a notional input tax deduction, so it keeps all the GST records fair and square and enables businesses to claim what they could ordinarily claim. It\u2019s a nice point and the stuff around that input tax deduction to the purchase of second-hand goods has been there right since the Act first came in 1985.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut there\u2019s an interesting little bit going here in replacement section 3A(3BB)(b), inserted by , and it seems to contemplate a scenario where the GST-registered person who buys a second-hand good or buys a good or a service from someone who is\u2014well, it\u2019d have to be a good\u2014unregistered can claim a greater input tax deduction than would ordinarily be the case. This is where I find it hard to follow\u2014in the circumstance where the particular good has changed hands several times between unregistered people. It might particularly apply to land where it happens. So it seems to be that through the way that the law was written, it contemplated allowing this deduction, but the way it\u2019s written enabled a circumstance where people could possibly swap back several times, swap land around several times, and then the eventual purchaser gets a rather more substantial input tax deduction than they ought to have gotten.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a little complicated and probably needs diagrams to show exactly what\u2019s going on and the flows of money back and forth or input tax deductions back and forth and so on. But in terms of putting this sort of clause in, you\u2019d have to think that there had been some mischief actually going on. It\u2019s a good point for us lawmakers. If you look at\u2014just bear with me for a moment\u2014Henry VIII\u2019s court, Henry VIII issues repeated regulations banning small dogs from his court. So he\u2019ll ban the small dogs, but then just a few months or a year or so later, the same ban is out there again, and then they creep back in and the same ban is there again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b40dce3cdb424cb49b07fd9178d5c84f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Did he tax them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249684c7e07534c3d84c6bc77ae803d4b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: No, he didn\u2019t tax them. The point is you only make bans against something that\u2019s actually going on. So this is a rule that\u2019s been put in place. But what I want to know from the Minister of Revenue was whether there was any actual mischief going on or whether it is just a possible mischief that could have gone on. So I get that we need to shut down possible loopholes as well as actual loopholes or loopholes that are actually being exploited, but if the Minister could just give us some insight into what was actually going on and whether it was a significant amount of revenue that was involved. Of course, if it was something that was actually going on, well, it\u2019s great to see that particular loophole being shut down. People should pay their taxes\u2014no more and no less than they ought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002283b51daa46a640699688550f386c229c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283b51daa46a640699688550f386c229c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the members for those questions. I\u2019ll start with clause 156 and then come to clause 157. The member may recall, from select committee proceedings, that the New Zealand Law Society identified a scenario on this exact point. The purpose of the amendment here is to address an integrity issue where taxpayers could potentially generate unintended GST refunds, in certain circumstances, by selling the same land multiple times between a chain of associated persons. That\u2019s the purpose of what the amendment\u2019s doing. The Law Society identified a scenario where that could play through; hence, the select committee made some amendments but accepted and put this change through, and it\u2019s got retrospective impact back to 30\u00A0March 2022, in order to remove that risk. So it is a remedial item to deal with a scenario which may eventuate, and that\u2019s what it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe member\u2019s question in regards to clause 157(1)\u2014a question, I recall, in regards to amendments to ensure that there\u2019s a deemed supply in regards to emissions units, particularly in the circumstances when these emissions units are deregistered from GST\u2014the purpose here is to ensure that, when they are deregistered from GST, this is zero-rated instead of standard-rated. Now, the member noted, in regards to emissions units\u2014I mean, these are generally always zero-rated for GST purposes; however, there is a minor technical error with the interaction between deregistered provisions within the Goods and Services Tax Act and the zero-rating rules, and so this technical amendment here is dealing with that error. There is a potential risk with the current law, as it can derive unintended consequences around a deemed supply in regards to those emissions units; hence, the proposed amendment, which the select committee considered and didn\u2019t make any changes to, will deal with this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002215d54098046140cbb99008e5bd60cb3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215d54098046140cbb99008e5bd60cb3a\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to continue the debate in relation to Part 4, specifically in relation to the Minister of Revenue\u2019s Amendment Paper 247, which he has tabled. I think it\u2019s always important that if an Amendment Paper has been tabled by the Minister, we do have the ability to scrutinise it a bit more, because it hasn\u2019t gone through the select committee process. There\u2019s a number of pages here, so I do want to try and work my way through the Amendment Paper just to get a bit more information around the policy intent of the changes which the Minister intends with the Amendment Paper. Again, we weren\u2019t able to contest it as part of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. It\u2019s quite clear that since the report back and the revision-tracked version that the select committee put through, there were additional changes which officials recommended to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EWhy I say this, why we need to debate the Amendment Paper in particular\u2014I remember many, many, many, many moons ago, having to be an IRD official in the place of the Minister\u2019s officials and having to ensure that, actually, if there was a remedial amendment that was put through a Supplementary Order Paper, you can\u2019t depend on the select committee report to provide you with the policy intent. You, basically, have to go through Hansard, through the times where the bill\u2019s actually debated in the House, to figure out, OK, first of all, hopefully, the Minister has talked about that Amendment Paper, and then, second of all, about the provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo I just want to ask some clarifying questions for the Minister in relation to his Amendment Paper, particularly around new clause 155B. New clause 155B, which is on page 12 of the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper, brings in, within section 3 of the Goods and Services Tax Act (GST Act)\u2014basically, provides the definitions that are used within the GST Act. It says section 3 has been amended, the meaning of the term \u201Cfinancial services\u201D\u2014so it\u2019s obviously a subparagraph in there. It says \u201Cservices provided by the collection agency under section 24 of the Resale Right for Visual Artists Act 2023.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ENow, we have debated the reason, in previous clauses, around this particular provision, the resale right for visual artists, but I want to be able to ask the Minister: does this mean, by including it within the definition of \u201Cfinancial services\u201D, if you look further down into the clauses\u2014you look at clause 157 and it adds a new subsection (29), that \u201CThe amount of a resale royalty retained by the collection agency under section 20 of the Resale Right for Visual Artists Act 2023 is treated as a fee paid by the right holder for the collection agency\u2019s services.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThen again, at clause 170, there\u2019s a new insertion there, new subclause (1B), and then a new subparagraph (ib), \u201Cin the case of a registered person who receives a resale royalty during the taxable period for the resale of an original visual artwork under section 18 of the Resale Right for Visual Artists \u2026 the tax fraction of the amount of the resale royalty retained by the collection agency under section 20 of that Act; and\u201D. Then, it continues with new clause 176B, inserting new section 26B, \u201CResale royalties\u201D, and then it says, \u201CThis section applies to \u2026 registered [persons]\u201D and then it gives a breakdown of those registered persons, how they fit into that test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo just while I go into those tests, my question to the Minister is: are you clarifying\u2014because, again, this is a new Amendment Paper\u2014that services provided by the collection agency under section 24 of the Resale Right for Visual Artists Act is now a financial service and is therefore subject to\u2014because financial services are exempt under GST. So are you saying it doesn\u2019t apply for GST? Then it talks through the different\u2014again, under clause 157, 170.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo just while the Minister considers that, I\u2019ll go through the test for resale royalties where it does apply\u2014new clause 176B, and that\u2019s \u201CThis section applies to a registered person who\u2014(a) receives a resale royalty under section 18 of the Resale Right for Visual Artists Act 2023 \u2026 and (b) was notified by the collection agency under regulation 10 of the Resale Right for Visual Artists Regulations \u2026 that the resale of the original \u2026 artwork which gave rise to the resale royalty was not a supply that was charged with tax under section 8.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThen there are some qualifying subsections underneath it, such as subsection (2), which says \u201Csubsection (3) applies, the registered person must add to the output tax under section 20 for [that] taxable period in which they receive the resale royalty an amount equal to the tax fraction of the amount of [that] resale \u2026 including any percentage\u201D\u2014I won\u2019t continue with that particular clause, because it is quite long, but if you go down then to subsection (3), \u201CIf the resale of the original visual artwork was zero-rated under section 11\u201D of the GST Act\u2014or is it the resale royalty Act?\u2014it\u2019s \u201Cpaid to the right holder by the collection agency [and it] must also be zero-rated.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo my reading of this\u2014and, again, it\u2019s an Amendment Paper by the Minister\u2014under the GST Act, financial services are zero-rated. So they\u2019re subject to GST, but, actually, the amount is zero. Are we bringing in, via the transaction for services provided through the Resale Right for Visual Artists Act, are we saying that that third transaction\u2014so it\u2019s been sold, a royalty\u2019s been paid, then it\u2019s been resold after that; is that not subject to GST because we\u2019re now classing it as a financial service and we\u2019re clarifying under clause 176B what is not a financial service, unless those other criteria apply? Or are we saying it\u2019s subject to GST, it\u2019s a financial service, it\u2019s zero-rated, however it is not classed as a financial service because under clause 176B, if it meets those tests, which I\u2019ve set out, under subclauses (1), (2), and (3), actually it is subject to GST at the 15 percent rate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfb06d2b56e2488da284b719e3895cf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfb06d2b56e2488da284b719e3895cf7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I do have a follow-up to the discussion we had a little bit briefly on clause 156. I was asking what mischief there was amongst this that was actually there, and the Minister of Revenue, on 156, did actually say that there was no particular mischief that had occurred, but the possibility was there, that it had been brought to our attention by the New Zealand Law Society, and so the fix was in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut I guess the follow-up question to that is just the point: why weren\u2019t the existing associated persons rules sufficient? Because we do actually have associated persons rules already sitting in the Income Tax Act 2007\u2014I just can\u2019t recall whether the Goods and Services Tax Act 1985 ones just piggyback on the Income Tax 2007 ones or not. But there are associated persons rules all through our tax legislation, so why were those rules insufficient to deal with this particular potential mischief?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAgain, I\u2019m just concerned that\u2014I appreciate the New Zealand Law Society might have identified this particular potential issue, but whether or not we really needed to go to the extent of changing the law to fix it is a different matter, because, surely, our associated persons rules could have dealt with it, because, as the Minister said, the particular mischief only arose in the case of a number of associated persons being involved. So why weren\u2019t our existing rules good enough, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00220ce925dab66e4d1cb71711038b4fd3d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ce925dab66e4d1cb71711038b4fd3d7\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much to the member, and I just acknowledge those at home watching this; hopefully you\u2019re enjoying it as much as we are here. In regards to technical queries in the Goods and Services Tax Act 1985\u2014isn\u2019t it exciting? Those particularly in the gallery watching, I\u2019m sure are intrigued.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe point that you were raising there, if I recall back around the New Zealand Law Society, was in a scenario where you\u2019ve got a farmhouse that sits on a piece of farmland and, in effect, the potential for the farmhouse to have a different categorisation under GST purposes than the farmland. That was the scenario that was played through and hence what triggered the amendment around a potential loophole. So that\u2019s the background context around what was going on there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWe had another question by a prior member in regard to clauses, I think, 155B, 170, 157, and 156\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2b7b07e9d424e2588116aa68949f390\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 176.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0ab14ab893148c4bd6896980a0d3ef8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0ab14ab893148c4bd6896980a0d3ef8\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E \u2014clause 176, that\u2019s right, and 185. Anyone, any other bids? No, that\u2019s all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262a9370f9a3d4544ba1323668b38795e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s good coverage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6ae33a21d9141838a563cd77848c268\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: They will relate to artist resale royalty tax changes. So just for the member\u2019s interest, the amendments that we\u2019re making across all of these clauses will ensure that GST is payable on the resale royalties that are payable to artists under the Resale Right for Visual Artists Act 2023. What we are simply doing here is ensuring that the artists and right holders of that artwork are entitled to a resale royalty on the resale of qualifying artwork, and that that is subject to the Act that I noted before, and then making sure the appropriate GST, where appropriate, is considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn effect, these changes are ensuring that there is an economically equivalent position\u2014I think you would refer to it as\u2014to non-GST-registered artists and right holders. So the amendment would ensure, in effect, that the appropriate GST treatment of amounts is withheld by the collection agency from the resale royalties by classifying them as fees. So, in effect, that\u2019s what those amendments are doing. As I recall, the Finance and Expenditure Committee spent a bit of time on these clauses, obviously, and didn\u2019t look to make any changes in regards to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00224f4cd023752d4f1eb4530a525b3b3dc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f4cd023752d4f1eb4530a525b3b3dc6\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I will take a brief call on both the Minister of Revenue\u2019s answers to the clause 156 questions and to the clause 159 questions, which have really only just begun. Firstly, I will mention clause 156, given the Minister\u2019s answer about farm land and farmhouse land being treated differently for GST purposes and that not being a change which is about intra-group transactions, which would be covered by the added persons rule, which my colleague Deborah Russell spoke about; I want to ask him: is this change going to have an unintended consequence on those businesses that are in the trade of second-hand sales? For example, an excellent Manukau business, 266 Bikes, will buy up second-hand bicycles from community groups, organisations, churches, and individuals and families as well as accepting donations, and then repurpose those to different uses, whether it\u2019s parts of other repair cafes or to sell on to, say, the school bike programme at Manurewa High School\u2014an excellent programme too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIs this this technical change for an integrity issue about another thing that will then affect some sellers who make a business from transacting with second-hand goods that might have an unintended consequence for some of these smaller retailers? I do think of every electorate MP here in this House who will have experience of these businesses that do great work to repair, and this Parliament is moving forward on further legislation that will actually incentivise more of this sort of retail where businesses are encouraged to be able to repair and prepare parts for repair for consumer use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy further question is on clause 159(1). He answered that this was simply about fixing a disparity for those vessels that are not intended to consume those goods and services in New Zealand, because that\u2019s not what GST is for. But my question to him was: then doesn\u2019t this rule in the legislation now create further disparities around similar sorts of vessels that are not covered? I think his mechanism makes a remedy to the Customs and Excise Regulations 1996, but those regulations don\u2019t cover all of the sorts of vessels that might logically be included in this change. It doesn\u2019t cover, logically, military vessels, for example, where the consumption will certainly not be in New Zealand. It doesn\u2019t cover certain types of air vessels. There are certainly lots of other categories now that will be knocking on his door, and I want to know what advice he has had about this being a logical extension of these GST rules\u2014so where should he be drawing the line?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI also want to ask him this: Auckland Airport has a real aspiration to be an airport hub for many of the routes that will travel past New Zealand. Is there an impact here on goods that will be transiting through that service\u2014for example, if you are fumigating goods in the whole of craft, should you be exempting that and should you not be exempting services that are to do with those goods? I want the Minister to clarify for us where he has drawn the lines here and whether that does make sense. If he says that it\u2019s about fixing a disparity, then, surely, there shouldn\u2019t be more disparities after he\u2019s done with his amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d85fe92ccdb84692a0d10f7bc5869683\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d85fe92ccdb84692a0d10f7bc5869683\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you very much to the Minister of Revenue as well for his response in relation to clauses 155 to 167B. If I understand the Minister\u2019s response, it\u2019s, effectively, that it is subject to GST unless clause 176B(3) applies, which is where the original visual artwork was zero-rated under section 11, then it must also be zero-rated. So, therefore, economically, it\u2019s the same equal treatment, if I\u2019ve got that right. I just want to acknowledge the Minister for his response and I bet you a policy analyst or a senior policy analyst in 30 years\u2019 time, when they look at this bill, will be very thankful for that response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EGoing now to the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper and to amendments to Student Loan Scheme Act. This is the wonderful about tax omnibus bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eccf80acc274ee9b23eb669c2ef8612\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, that\u2019s actually in the wrong\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288308071921e425fac6372e0b108daf5\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: OK. My apologies. That goes back to clause 185B, so I will wait for that call to go through that and I will let the member take another call before I go to the next call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227e0a49e3234f4e68aa58b0990b69fdd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e0a49e3234f4e68aa58b0990b69fdd3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take another call from the Hon Dr Deborah Russell, but I would like perhaps more questions than\u2014we\u2019ve had a reasonable period on this part, and I\u2019m happy that there might be some more questions, but I want questions rather than, you know, full speeches on this piece. And I\u2019m not pointing at that member; I\u2019m talking generally here. I\u2019m listening for new questions but not speeches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022b03a81049f944c8990bbaf7e9a5f4bb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b03a81049f944c8990bbaf7e9a5f4bb1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that direction, Madam Chair\u2014I notice that you\u2019re always a very fair Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f1063cddd3e4ea79a33bea36a8dbfc8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I just think this is what the committee of the whole House stage is\u2014it\u2019s about opportunities to ask questions of the Minister. So I think we\u2019ll home in a bit on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226284aa2743a943229ff9190248daa75a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: In that case, I do want to move on to a clause we haven\u2019t mentioned at all yet: clause 157, immediately after clause 156 which we have discussed. In particular, it\u2019s around the meaning of the term \u201Csupply\u201D\u2014a supply is an amount you supply and you pay tax on it. But clause 157 amends section 5 of the Goods and Services Act, and subclause (2) adds, as far as I can tell, new subsection (6E)\u2014oh, no it\u2019s a replacement. But it adds a little bit of information there, that \u201Ca payment in the nature of a grant of a subsidy\u2014(a) includes a suspensory loan or advance when the loan or advance becomes non-repayable by reason of its conditions for non-repayment being satisfied:\u201D. So that\u2019s really quite straightforward. It\u2019s basically: had a suspensory loan, the conditions for which the suspensory loan suspends entirely play out, so, in effect, it turns into a grant, and therefore that gets a different GST treatment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut, again, the question is the same as the one I raised in relation to clause 156, which is, again: was there any mischief being done in this case? Was it something where officials noted that there was a potential for mischief and therefore it should be tidied up, or was it a case where there was an actual problem, where people had noticed a way around the law by sort of using suspensory loans and then converting them to grants, that enabled people to do something was perhaps not quite, shall we say, as straight as we\u2019d like people to be with their tax law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo a pretty straightforward question there: what mischief was being done, if any; how much of an impact was it having; and why was it worth us taking the time to change the law, unless there was some particular mischief being done this circumstance? So if the Minister of Revenue could answer that, that would be fantastic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00221ce5dfbf00c641a5a27943d7375ddd67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ce5dfbf00c641a5a27943d7375ddd67\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to allow time for the Hon Dr Deborah Russell, the member who spoke previously, to have her question responded to. I just want to check, in relation to clause 161, which amends section 15B of the Goods and Services Tax Act, \u201CTaxable periods aligned with balance dates\u201D\u2014so it\u2019s a remedial change. And it\u2019s a taxable period\u2014for those who aren\u2019t aware\u2014for GST purposes. It\u2019s basically the time period, whether it\u2019s a month, two months, or six months, that people use for accounting for GST. So it basically allows people to align their taxable period with their standard balance date for income tax purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI just want to check in with the Minister of Revenue: is there a scenario where the provisions under clauses 161; 162\u2014I won\u2019t go through it\u2014163; 164; and 165, which replaces section 15EB, would differ in any other case? Again, just making sure that we\u2019ve covered all the different scenarios, because they had come through in submissions. Also, these provisions operate with the Commissioner of Inland Revenue\u2019s approval, so are these circumstances\u2014and, again, it\u2019s a discretionary measure; there are some different discretions within the different tax Acts for the commissioner to use. But clarity is so important, whether that be in a tax information bulletin that\u2019s published by IRD or a standard practice statement, which basically explains when the commissioner\u2019s discretion will be used. Certainty is so important when it comes to tax, particularly around your taxable period, because you could get penalties or you could get use-of-money interest applied. So are there circumstances that the Minister is aware of\u2014knowing that, again, it\u2019s a discretionary measure; we don\u2019t have those tax information bulletins or standard practice statements because usually they\u2019re not released until after the bill\u2014where the Commissioner of Inland Revenue would refuse to allow someone to change their GST taxable period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo I have two particular questions in relation to clause 161. Would it differ in any other case, in relation to that taxable period? And given it\u2019s at the commissioner\u2019s discretion, are there circumstances in which the commissioner would refuse to allow someone to change their GST taxable period, given we don\u2019t have the supporting documents in order to clarify the intention of the commissioner when applying this discretion in the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002292dde2482b95494abf1f1724b3d465f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292dde2482b95494abf1f1724b3d465f5\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, members, for your questions. The question in regard to second-hand goods was raised\u2014clause 156. Just clarifying that this amendment would not impact a typical second-hand goods business, as identified by the member within her electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThere was a question in regard to non-taxable Government grants and subsidies, under clause 157(2), (3), and (4)\u2014just out of interest, it does impact clauses 185 and 186 as well. In effect, what we\u2019re doing here, these aren\u2019t policy changes, they are consequential changes to move and improve the accessibility of some of the definitions. So, in effect, we\u2019re moving the content into the Goods and Services Tax Act and removing it out of what was an Order in Council. The reason is Order in Councils can be difficult to find and aren\u2019t that accessible; again, the Finance and Expenditure Committee considered that, thought that was sensible, and put that through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI think there were some other questions in regard to clause 157(8)\u2014again, that relates to artist resale royalty tax changes\u2014and I think the question was in regard to: \u201CWhy?\u201D I mean, in effect, this was a matter, and that\u2019s why it\u2019s in there. Why in the Amendment Paper? Well, basically, the issues relating to artist resale royalty tax changes were identified subsequent to the bill coming into the House, and hence why it was put through as an amendment. But, again, the impacts of that deal with points that, in effect, are remedial in nature and improve the effectiveness of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe last question the member raised, in regard to clauses 161, 164, 165, and the discretion of the commissioner: well, it sort of goes without saying that the commissioner does have discretion, and we\u2019ve got a very competent commissioner of IRD who\u2019s well respected. Obviously, there will be circumstances where the commissioner may use their discretion to refuse a situation\u2014again, that\u2019s an operational matter that\u2019s within the discretion of the commissioner, obviously, but we\u2019re simply allowing that to ensure that appropriate decisions are made in regard to taxpayers\u2019 situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00227ffb604e5de24ea498d7a778042ef679\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ffb604e5de24ea498d7a778042ef679\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. A further question to add to my colleague the Hon Barbara Edmonds\u2019 questions around the taxable periods and the circumstances in which people can get the commissioner to approve a change in their taxable period\u2014sometimes it\u2019s aligning with balance date; there are various reasons why. I just want the Minister of Revenue to think for a little bit and to consider the circumstances in which a GST-registered person could repeatedly change their GST taxable period. I think these rules allow the space that a person could change one month and then change back the other way a few months later, and then change again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EOf course, the backstop against that would have to be the commissioner\u2019s approval, but the rules do seem to contemplate that a person is able to do that\u2014that it is permissible within these rules. So, unless the Minister can point me to a particular clause that says a person may do it, say, only once within a particular calendar period\u2014I couldn\u2019t see it sitting in these rules in here, but perhaps it is elsewhere within the GST Act. It would be useful to know. There would be the opportunity for some interesting tax planning there if the commissioner\u2019s discretion was fairly freely granted. So I want to know what protections are in place against that particular sort of behaviour\u2014whether it\u2019s within these clauses. I couldn\u2019t find it within the Act itself. Or are we just relying, in that case, on the commissioner\u2019s discretion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00228d4527632e5c4f7d8827c9e560eb0687\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d4527632e5c4f7d8827c9e560eb0687\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Well, obviously, taxpayers have the flexibility of choosing what their reporting requirements are in the Goods and Services Tax Act. The circumstances may and can change, hence why there\u2019s flexibility around that. In regard to taxpayers that are deliberately using that for purposes that are deemed by the department as either avoiding or evading tax, then there are provisions within the broader tax system to enable the Inland Revenue Department to deal with those circumstances, which they do regularly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u00222816b6e33ed54de5bddb741aee6b14c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222816b6e33ed54de5bddb741aee6b14c6\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c1c70c283b4b4f20a21efe595aa08851\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229b51b59aae904031812a5f360b8216dd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 4 set out on Amendment Paper 247 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002225c17229372d40c088529fba7b244020\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225c17229372d40c088529fba7b244020\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022501b1a4ff62846c9a126576e24e96539\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New\u00A0Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000399\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb30f92336964b94854bd42c6460b825\u0022\u003EPart 5  Amendments to other enactments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002201fdea81818840b486df7b4ba3ec2768\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201fdea81818840b486df7b4ba3ec2768\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 5. Part 5 is the debate on clauses 187 to 204, \u201CAmendments to other enactments\u201D. The question is that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00228d65925289654251bd72560c4f442a16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d65925289654251bd72560c4f442a16\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll just take a call on this. I\u2019m looking here at the amendments to the Income Tax Act 2004. What I\u2019m interested in is clause 200C. I\u2019ll remark here that it is remarkable that we\u2019re amending an Act that was repealed by the Income Tax Act 2007, but yet it seems still to be relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut what\u2019s happening here is that the definition of \u201Cbusiness use\u201D has a small change so that the words \u201Cand exclusively\u201D are added. So business use in the 2004 legislation is defined as \u201Cfor a motor vehicle and for a person, means travel undertaken by the vehicle wholly in deriving the person\u2019s income\u201D. So I presume that they will now read, \u201Cfor the usage undertaken by the vehicle wholly and exclusively in deriving the person\u2019s income\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested in why \u201Cand exclusively\u201D is needed, and does not \u201Cwholly\u201D already cover it? I mention that because I think there was a bill introduced today about plain English or something, and \u201Cwholly\u201D would already seem to mean that everything was included, so the inclusion of \u201Cand exclusively\u201D would seem redundant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested in why this bill includes \u201Cand exclusively\u201D and if that means that the word \u201Cwholly\u201D in other pieces of legislation\u2014and I\u2019ve not reviewed all the other legislative references to \u201Cwholly\u201D, but if there is now an indication that when something applies to something \u201Cwholly\u201D, that that means that there can be other things that somehow are not part of the \u201Cwholly\u201D, which is why we need the \u201Cand exclusively\u201D. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022a161b5694f6b44ac949e9e309de9e763\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a161b5694f6b44ac949e9e309de9e763\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m looking at clause 188, and in particular 188(4) and (5), where it talks about \u201CQROPS\u201D, which is a new acronym that\u2019s being introduced into the Act. Interesting, given we\u2019ve just had that plain language bill introduced, and yet we have another acronym coming in. Now, in order to know what \u201CQROPS\u201D is, we have to go back to Part 2 of this particular bill, where it\u2019s defined. It\u2019s \u201Ca superannuation scheme in New Zealand\u201D\u2014so a New Zealand KiwiSaver scheme, a New Zealand Super scheme\u2014\u201Cthat is a qualifying recognised overseas pension scheme\u201D\u2014a qualifying recognised overseas pension scheme, or QROPS; and this is the interesting bit\u2014\u201Cfor the purposes of the Finance Act 2004 (UK)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWe didn\u2019t actually discuss this much during our Part 1 debate\u2014I don\u2019t want to go back to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d5754556d7d46c1b1b00e018224d0ef\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s good, because we won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225b0cbbcfff64b68988e243309cd6654\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the Part 1 bit or even the Part 2 bit or whatever it was, but I do want to talk about this QROPS accumulation, which is sitting in clause 188(5). It talks about, \u201Cin relation to a member of a KiwiSaver scheme, [it] means the net value of the foreign superannuation withdrawal derived by the member from an interest in a superannuation scheme\u201D. It\u2019s quite a complicated little definition there, about where a person has accumulated super scheme amounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m asking from the Minister here, in relation to this, is it amends the KiwiSaver Act, but it does seem to involve some quite complicated calculations and analysis and sort of trawling through transactions and so on that is required in respect of the QROPS schemes, of the QROPS accumulation. In particular, this is because it goes back to the Income Tax Act 2007 and that has been reinvested in KiwiSaver schemes before 17 July 2015. So we\u2019re already going back nine years on that\u2014well, nearly nine years on that. So going back quite a few years doing some complicated transactions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat I want to know from the Minister is: what are the compliance costs associated with this for KiwiSaver schemes in New Zealand? We know that this particular section of legislation has been changed in order to ensure that people don\u2019t end up with a double tax burden or with an extra tax charge, but there\u2019s also a compliance cost for the schemes in terms of calculating all this and keeping track of all these records. I wonder if the Minister could just talk us through the extent to which compliance costs were taken into account when working out whether or not it was sensible to make this change to our tax law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00221ac284b2c3dd44e0904aa5cee672a47c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ac284b2c3dd44e0904aa5cee672a47c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the members\u2019 questions. In regard to clause 200C, interestingly, at that time the Minister of Revenue was Dr Michael Cullen, and he made a decision to remove the word \u201Cexclusively\u201D from the definition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ddcb11189a04ff8a3065d46b25a2ed7\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: A very, very sensible man. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4b29f85c9034fae8c5dfb3be03a39a5\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, in retrospect, maybe it wasn\u2019t, because, subsequently to that, there\u2019s been a lot of confusion. We\u2019re simply 19 or so years, or not 19\u201421 years later, we\u2019re reversing it back to what it was before 2004 and adding \u201Cexclusively\u201D back in there. So, there we go\u2014a little bit of history for those that are studying taxation law, or whatever they\u2019re doing at home while watching this, no doubt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWith regard to clause 188(4) and (5) and the term \u201CQROPS\u201D, just for those that are wanting to know, basically, if you go across to the UK, get a pension over in the UK, and then you return to New Zealand, you would want to bring that pension back with you, that\u2019s the model. The UK legislation has rules where those pensions have to be within a specific entity in New Zealand, and that entity is called the QROP. That, basically, maintains the same structure and form as what it is in the UK, and then, when you hit your retirement age, you can also get that money out. It just stops people taking retirement savings from the UK and spending it on whatever they like, and there\u2019s no integrity between countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re simply doing is adding flexibility in these changes. Where someone originally brought their pension over and, say, stuck it in one of the KiwiSaver funds or, hypothetically, one of the banks, at the moment they can\u2019t change that and move it to another provider. So we\u2019re bringing in flexibility to allow those individuals to move that QROP from, say, bank A to bank B, or to another provider which offers QROPS, and that\u2019s, just again, flexibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe compliance costs in that actually give more taxpayer flexibility. It also means that, obviously, some KiwiSaver funds have better returns than others, and that allows taxpayers, in terms of personal responsibility, to be able to make more informed investment decisions around their retirement, which I think is a good thing. So those are the answers to those two. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab8b42c64f16452892383b49eb9b8b5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab8b42c64f16452892383b49eb9b8b5e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a question for the Minister of Revenue from his Amendment Paper 247, and this is clause 200H. I just want to say I\u2019m learning a lot from this bill in terms of how taxation systems work. But I think for this one, with 200H, I know we explored some parts of the final-year fees-free scheme under Part 3, but I think new section 195B, inserted by clause 200H, is something I want to get clarification on from the Minister. So the Minister has given us clarification under Part 3 that when the final year is free, it, essentially, is a reimbursement after the completion of the degree, which is confirmed here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s say, in an example where a student needs to take on a student loan to pay for that final year, and upon the receipt of their qualification, that final amount is credited to them with that qualification. However, let\u2019s say there\u2019s a scenario where a student was intending on doing that, got a loan, and decided to take a gap break after one semester, and then decided to go overseas on work experience, which then would trigger student loan interest as a part of that, despite the fact that they would decide to come back to Aotearoa at some stage to complete the degree. Would the credit from the final year\u2019s fees-free against the borrower\u2019s consolidated loan balance include the additional interest that a student would accrue during the gap year when they no longer become a tax resident of Aotearoa and then triggers that international loan interest rate and potentially debt rate? Can I just check with the Minister on whether the final-year fees-free has taken this into consideration. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022991f00f2614447e4a9c73546faf4cef0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022991f00f2614447e4a9c73546faf4cef0\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, focusing on the Minister of Revenue\u2019s Amendment Paper, because they are amendments that have not been through a select committee process, so I just want to ensure that we have the policy intention really clear. I\u2019m looking at the Amendment to Taxation (Annual Rates for 2021-22, GST, and Remedial Matters) Act 2022. That\u2019s on page 14 of the Amendment Paper, AP 247.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ENow, I notice that there\u2019s been a change of a previous Act. It\u2019s been an extension to what looks like a sunset clause. So the application date for when this provision basically closes\u2014so it\u2019s been extended for two years from 1 April 2025 to 1 April 2027. It looks normal, right? It looks like a remedial matter until you look at, actually, what that section is extending and it\u2019s extending Schedule 7 of the Tax Administration Act 1994\u2014the disclosure rules. These are disclosure rules that were brought in during COVID-19 and, from my reading of it, it had a sunset clause of 1 April 2025, but that\u2019s now been extended. New section 200I(2): \u201CIn section 231(3), replace \u20181 April 2025\u2019 with \u20181\u00A0April 2027\u2019.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo you look at Schedule 7 amended by the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2021-22, GST, and Remedial Matters) Act 2022, the disclosure rules, it makes changes to when the Commissioner for Inland Revenue may disclose the information, which is information for COVID-19 purposes, with other Government agencies, but only if the commissioner considers\u2014and it\u2019s got four different qualifying tests to get in there because it\u2019s \u201Cand\u201D, \u201Cand\u201D, \u201Cand\u201D, \u201Cand\u201D. So you look at the clause that it\u2019s amending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EYou\u2019re going through now the Tax Administration Act, which the Amendment Paper is now changing. It talks about section 18\u2014which is the secrecy provisions for the tax Acts\u2014\u201Cdoes not prevent the Commissioner disclosing to a government agency information about a person or entity for the purpose of enabling the government agency to provide or fulfil any duty, obligation, or other thing in relation to any person or entity in connection with COVID-19\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThen, through that particular Act, it states all the different Government agencies where the secrecy provision doesn\u2019t apply\u2014so the New Zealand Customs Service, the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, workplace safety, agencies for charities regulation, agencies for foreign trust regulation, Government agencies with voice recognition analysis, the Financial Markets Authority with the KiwiSaver information, Land Information New Zealand, the registrar of courts, credit reporting agencies. It keeps going: agencies for the gambling levy, the Department of Internal Affairs offshore betting charges, the New Zealand Film Commission, the Registrar of Companies\u2014but I think that\u2019s now being repealed under these changes\u2014the Registrar of Companies again, KiwiSaver providers, agencies for R \u0026amp; D, agencies for Australian wine producer rebate, regulators under the Overseas Investment Act, the chief executive responsible for the administration of the Residential Tenancies Act. And that\u2019s just Subpart 1 of those disclosures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EWorking off a phone and it\u2019s difficult to cross-reference different Acts which you don\u2019t have a paper copy of, but if I understand it, all those disclosures, unless they\u2019ve been repealed by subsequent Acts\u2014so there\u2019s been a couple of Acts between 2022 and this one in 2024. Is that correct? Am I reading that correct? I would like the Minister to correct me if I\u2019m wrong; I\u2019m happy to take it if I\u2019m wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EIs it correct that now those disclosures which allow the Commissioner of Inland Revenue to, basically, breach the secrecy rules, the secrecy rules won\u2019t apply to all that list of Government agencies has now been extended from 1 April 2025 to 1 April 2027? If my interpretation is wrong, I\u2019m happy to be corrected, but I just want to check if that is the case, because it\u2019s quite serious if it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00229394b11b870047c593e6506cb83e6675\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229394b11b870047c593e6506cb83e6675\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I haven\u2019t had the opportunity to participate at this part of the committee stage yet, so it\u2019s always a pleasure to receive a call and to be able to do that. I wanted to focus specifically on the Minister of Revenue\u2019s Amendment Paper and look at the changes to the student loan scheme. But I want to cover some different material from what\u2019s already been discussed in relation to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EOne of the papers that has been tabled to support the Minister\u2019s changes under the Amendment Paper to the student loan scheme is the supplementary analysis of the final year of fees free. This is a regulatory impact statement which goes over the impact of what the implementation of this policy would mean. The thing that really stood out for me, and I wondered if the Minister would be able to reflect on this, was the Treaty of Waitangi analysis that is included within this document. I also note that this particular document is dated 22 October 2024, so I have questions about how this was taken into account at the time when the policy was decided and also if the Minister has had an opportunity to reflect on some of the quite blunt statements which are included in this document. That is the overall opinion in this document: that the new final-year fees-free policy does not fulfil the Crown\u2019s obligations under Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIt goes on to say that the new final-year scheme is not the best approach to address financial barriers to equity of tertiary education access and achievement for all learners, including M\u0101ori learners. There was also limited engagement with M\u0101ori learners, and the conclusion of it is the Crown\u2019s obligations under article 3 are not fulfilled by this particular policy. This has real implications for learners, M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori, in the implementation of this particular policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe Minister, as well\u2014I have a question around this particular policy and how much advice, if any, he received around the particular implications of the employment statistics at the time that information was gathered about the first-year free policy and then looking to change that to the final-year policy. Because, of course, it is very well known that in situations where there is high unemployment, tertiary education enrolments tend to go up, and in situations where there is low unemployment and plenty of jobs available for people, then there are fewer enrolments. So it seems to me that the data collection in relation to first-year fees free was impacted by periods of time under the previous Government where there was significantly more job opportunities available for people and now we\u2019re seeing\u2014and I\u2019ve heard this reported recently\u2014the increase and, in fact, the financial increases, which will, I\u2019m sure, be of interest to the Minister, especially the budgeted financial increases in relation to tertiary education. So the statistics, when you look at them side by side, really don\u2019t necessarily tell the full picture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EOne of the big things that has been advocated over many years in terms of engaging populations that haven\u2019t historically engaged in tertiary education, especially university education, to the same degree as other population groups, has been the deterrent factor of the expense of education and the fact that that is a significant cost outlay\u2014different cultural approaches towards going into debt, which are different between different cultures. We shouldn\u2019t assume that taking on debt is seen as acceptable in every single culture. My experience and information that I\u2019ve heard about from different people is that it\u2019s a vastly different proposition to some cultures to take on a student loan, compared to other cultures. I think that is something that needs to be taken into account when the switch occurs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EMy question, really, is in terms of this quite substantive advice and also adding to the fact that due to the time lines available, there wasn\u2019t enough time to do significant stakeholder consultation\u2014did the Minister consider that at the time? Has the Minister considered this advice further? Has he looked specifically at the differentiation in employment data between when the first-year fees free and last-year fees-free scheme was implemented, and has that caused him to reflect and perhaps think of changing any of those decisions in relation to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002291e7a8f48e2d4028b75ea8ab38bf43d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291e7a8f48e2d4028b75ea8ab38bf43d3\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Working our way through those questions, we had a question in regards to extending the date of repeal of information-sharing provisions\u2014new clause 200I. This is particularly focused around extending the repeal which relates to the current authorisation for provision of information sharing between IRD and the Companies Office. It\u2019s making sure that the repeal of that aspect is on the same date that the proposed new information-sharing agreement will come into force. So it\u2019s dealing with the Companies Office and IRD, and that\u2019s the purpose of that clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThere was a question from the Greens member in regards to student loans, around interest. Obviously, if a student loan borrower goes overseas, in that instance, they would be subject to interest on their loan. However, when the individual returns and completes their final year, which, I think, was the question raised, they will only be credited back for the fee portion of their fees\u2014they won\u2019t be credited back for the interest portion\u2014which is the policy intent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ELastly, the last member notes around the fees-free\u2014I mean, it\u2019s not within my scope to be commenting around the broader policy intent. Obviously, that is a policy that is being implemented by our Government; we think it\u2019s a very effective and appropriate policy. It makes a lot of sense to do fees-free on the last year, versus the first year. It turns out that people stay on and finish their degrees, surprisingly, under that little incentive, versus just doing it and then deciding to do other stuff. It\u2019s a common-sense policy, very practical and realistic, but what we\u2019re really talking about here, in the context of the tax Act, is how we deal with that flowing through in terms of student loans. I didn\u2019t hear a question in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EOne member also just asked a question about not having a physical copy of the legislation. For those members who haven\u2019t been here too long, there are copies of the legislation sitting on the Table in front of us, if they want to refer to those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022708ed215af074499a81d1b48f5d9477a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022708ed215af074499a81d1b48f5d9477a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to move on to\u2014this is in Part 5, so it\u2019s clauses 197 through 199, which are amendments, of all things, to the Stamp and Cheque Duties Act 1971. Interesting that we\u2019ve still got this, given that most of us no longer have cheques or use them\u2014I can\u2019t recall the last time I wrote out a cheque\u2014but, of course, it does have particular relevance in this particular tax bill, in particular because this is where the Minister of Revenue asserted that there was a growth measure in this bill. When we asked him to name, way back in the Part 1 debate, one measure in this bill that was something that would promote economic growth, this was the particular set of measures he cited, the AIL clauses\u2014or the approved issuer levy rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo here it is, the actual particular clauses he was referring to\u2014also, 128 and 141. In particular, this clause 199, what it does is it allows the circumstance where someone has forgotten, through oversight, to register that they are paying interest as a New Zealand borrower paying interest overseas, and they\u2019ve forgotten to register for the approved issuer levy\u2014the AIL. The impact of this is paying, I think, a 2 percent interest tax rather than 15 percent and so on. What it does is it enables this to happen when there\u2019s been an oversight and someone\u2019s made a mistake somewhere along the way, and they get to put it right and therefore get a lower tax burden because they have the opportunity to put things right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s a little unusual. Most of the time, people are expected to know what the tax law is and they\u2019re expected to comply with it. Turning up to Inland Revenue and saying, \u201CI didn\u2019t know.\u201D is usually not taken to be a reason for getting some kind of concessionary treatment. Indeed, one still has to pay one\u2019s taxes, and, in fact, one ends up paying fines on it as well if you\u2019ve gotten it wrong. So there does seem to be a circumstance here where a particular set of people who might be subjected to taxation are getting, maybe, preferential treatment\u2014maybe the sort of treatment that lots of us would like to have through the income tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, I know that Inland Revenue can be really quite good when people do make mistakes with their taxes or do make mistakes through oversight. We always encourage people, if they run into problems with their taxes, to contact IRD and to sort it out, and IRD do work with taxpayers to ensure that they get their taxes right. Nevertheless, we have legislated here provisions\u2014so not just within the commissioner\u2019s discretion but we have sat here and legislated a set of rules which, basically, say that if someone got it wrong and didn\u2019t get something done in time, well, then they can claim this concession. That does seem to be quite an extraordinary thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to hear from the Minister, just for the benefit of the committee, for the benefit of those watching at home\u2014and my dad will be watching, because that\u2019s what he does on the afternoons. But just if you could explain it for the benefit of my dad\u2014and, Dad, I will return that phone call\u2014that would be good to hear, just the Minister\u2019s explanation of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00221a58a5a26d6c49d29fd2ea39a32447d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a58a5a26d6c49d29fd2ea39a32447d1\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u0022304049289c6c4ca89fa0c6b0ca2409c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022304049289c6c4ca89fa0c6b0ca2409c3\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just wanting to elaborate on the questions that my colleague Camilla Belich already raised. I think we\u2019ll appreciate that this Amendment Paper hasn\u2019t had a chance to go through the normal select committee process, particularly the changes around the fees-free scheme. I appreciate that the Minister of Revenue said that these changes were sensible and made sense, or something along those lines\u2014I\u2019m paraphrasing; I can\u2019t exactly remember what he said\u2014but I think it is worth exploring the policy rationale for this. I appreciate that the Minister said that he either wasn\u2019t able to or wouldn\u2019t get into that debate, but this is the reason why they\u2019re changing this through the Amendment Paper. So it would be appreciated to have some engagement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really interesting that one of the key statements in the regulatory impact statement is \u201Cwe do not expect a net benefit with final-year over first-year Fees Free, beyond moderate cost savings.\u201D So, in fact, is that actually the real reason this is going to be put in place? I mean, there\u2019s been some stated policy rationale for the changes to this legislation that they articulated here, which was to, \u201Cincentivise learners, particularly disadvantaged learners, to progress through and finish their programme of study\u201D. The problem with that statement is that when you go through the cost-benefit analysis table\u2014which is on pages 18-19 on the supplementary analysis report\u2014they stated that the impact of that on rewarding successful completion of tertiary education was estimated to be low, and the evidence certainty that it would have a low impact at best was high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EAnother reason that the Minister, I think, articulated in his previous intervention was for taxpayers to be able to have confidence that their spending would have a positive effect in terms of tertiary education. But, again, in the supplementary analysis report, the section that analysed whether the confidence that their investment has a positive outcome rewarding completion, the impact was estimated to be low. So, again, there\u2019s been this rhetoric that this legislation is actually going to make a substantial difference, but the analysis that we have in the supplementary analysis report doesn\u2019t seem to indicate that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EWorryingly, it appears to have quite negative impacts on the Crown\u2019s relationship with Te Tiriti o Waitangi. If you look through the section it analyses, it says this policy does not fulfil the Crown\u2019s obligation under the Treaty of Waitangi, and that this policy does not effectively address real barriers to equity of tertiary education access and achievement of M\u0101ori learners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EAgain, is the actual point of this to save money? I acknowledge that the supplementary analysis report seems to indicate that it does generate substantial savings, that the table on figure 20 indicates about $180 million in the 2024-25 year, $261 million in 2025-26. So these aren\u2019t trivial sums of money necessarily. But, I guess, if the Government\u2019s intention was just to actually produce cost savings, then they should just say that, instead of going through this rhetoric about incentivising learners and rewarding learners when the evidence for that just seems skimpy at best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EAgain, to the Minister: is the actual point of this just to save money? That\u2019s certainly a valid objective; you are the Minister of Revenue after all. If not, just have that as the actual objective instead of going through this pretence that it\u2019s actually going to improve outcomes for learners in any reasonable way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00222c0b6b31bbb7462a8aa3bf25c99ac77d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c0b6b31bbb7462a8aa3bf25c99ac77d\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the member Francisco Hernandez and I are not going to agree on a point of policy in regards to whether we should have fees-free in the first year of university, which was the case, or moving it to the final year, which is the policy intent. We are here to talk about the taxation bill and the implications of that policy decision on the tax bill, which I didn\u2019t hear a question on, so I\u2019m not able to comment any further other than it\u2019s a policy which is being edited, and the changes within this bill are, in effect, dealing with the tax implications of that policy decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the question on approved issuer levy that was asked previously: obviously, the approved issuer levy tax model reduces the cost of capital on New Zealand borrowers. The change in the bill that we are implementing here simply allows retrospective registrations, which allows people that have made a mistake with their registration to be able to go back and correct that. As a result of that change, that will mean that those people can take advantage of that piece of tax legislation, and that reduces their cost of capital, which obviously has an implication in terms of increasing economic growth, which we as a Government are very focused on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae29e36826e547788a371c3d280cbabd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae29e36826e547788a371c3d280cbabd\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s just a really quick question in relation to the response that the Minister of Revenue gave for new clause 200I. The Minister said that, basically, it was to repeal the Companies Office and that the repeal date of 1 April 2027 was to align with the sunset clause for all the other secrecy provision exemptions. I just want to confirm: are all the other secrecy provisions 1 April 2027; if so, why was the Companies Office the incorrect one\u2014out of that huge list of Government agencies, why did that have a separate sunset clause date, given everything else was 2027?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f53030e8859045aab14eca5b46c5fb4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f53030e8859045aab14eca5b46c5fb4a\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Quite simply because the agencies have entered into a new agreement between IRD and the Companies Office, which will come in and be effective from the date on which this remedial change repeals the old model. So it relates to those two entities only\u2014hence, why we\u2019re repealing that date, to allow the new agreement to come into effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002236ecc0c6973c4d37b6587e6650716125\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236ecc0c6973c4d37b6587e6650716125\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E If that\u2019s the case, do all the other provisions, then, still apply for all those Government agencies under the disclosure rules?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022fccac302d3cd4ae4a470ecc57bc22316\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fccac302d3cd4ae4a470ecc57bc22316\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E They do apply, but this specific remedial, under new clause 200I, deals with the agreement, in particular the Companies Office and Inland Revenue only.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00221e7cecf64efd44bc8b3511a91ba2f1ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e7cecf64efd44bc8b3511a91ba2f1ba\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Therefore, under section 231(3)\u2014I just want to be clear, because it\u2019s really difficult to find the application date for that previous Act, again, without having the paper copies to work through it. Do the rest of those Government agencies which had disclosure rules which applied during the period of COVID and subsequently\u2014because I can understand why you might still need those disclosure rules to ensure that IRD can share information with other agencies, particularly around auditing, given the Small Business Cashflow (Loan) Scheme, I think, has payment dates which have come up. For all of those other Government agencies\u2014and there was a huge list of them\u2014is their sunset clause now 1 April 2025 or 1 April 2027? Just to be clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7b3dd167d9a4453baca27131c4710ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7b3dd167d9a4453baca27131c4710ab\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Just to be clear, as I said twice already, the specific aspect only deals with the Companies Office and IRD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00227ed23c256dc94f1cbe3f954d2af6a110\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ed23c256dc94f1cbe3f954d2af6a110\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E So what is the application date for the sunset clause for all the other agencies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00229d394c6210594776975a9bbf6cb5c7a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d394c6210594776975a9bbf6cb5c7a4\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to start by thanking the Minister of Revenue for his history lesson about \u201Cwholly and exclusively\u201D and to say how pleased I am to be in the same boat as the late Michael Cullen on my thinking about those words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, I just want to talk briefly, and I have a simple question around clause 204. So this is \u201CGoods and Services Tax (Grants and Subsidies) Order 1992 revoked\u201D. That order from 1992 made in the name of Cath Tizard when she was the Governor-General\u2014talk about history!\u2014goes through a number of grants and subsidies that are non-taxable. I see, of course, in the bill in front of me that Schedule 2 includes Government grants and subsidies: non-taxable amounts, and that this was part of the Part 4 discussion, the words in that schedule, but clause 204 is in Part 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo my question simply is: why is the order revoked, and is it because everything is transferred into the schedule, or are there some differences between what is in the order and what is in the schedule?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022b940b956489748e99da6a1b764bf5c87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b940b956489748e99da6a1b764bf5c87\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to go back to my previous question from the Minister of Revenue\u2014and thank you, Minister, for the response that you\u2019ve given. Understanding that, if a student takes a student loan in the final year and, halfway through between the two semesters or between that final year, the student goes abroad and no longer becomes a tax resident of Aotearoa, in which case they will accrue interest as part of their student loan. But consider a loan balance on that date does not include the additional interest that is accrued. Just for clarity: this is still the Amendment Paper 247, section 200H, the newly introduced section 195B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut I wanted to check with the Minister: in that particular case, let\u2019s say the scenario is that a student, for example, has a three-year degree. They have a $60,000 student loan and the final-year student loan is $20,000. Halfway through the semester, they go overseas, they come back for a year, they complete a degree. With universities in general, they allow you to pause your degree for up to three years and potentially longer, depending on your discussion with a particular university, let\u2019s say. You know, they come back and then they complete their degree so they\u2019re eligible for the final-year fees-free scheme. Therefore, the $200,000 is considered a credit against the consolidated loan. The student will still need to pay interest, but in that situation would the student be paying interest on the basis of $40,000 minus the final year, or on the basis of the entirety of the $60,000 loan? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225e95fa7785f54ecf8ab536378f685777\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e95fa7785f54ecf8ab536378f685777\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Well, as I noted to the member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan before, if in that scenario the individual went overseas for a portion of time, at that point, interest would be subject to the loan\u2014or the portion of the loan\u2014that they\u2019ve currently incurred at the point at which they depart New Zealand; interest would be applied to that. But, irrespective of the timing of that and the interest relevant, the only amount that would be accredited back to the individual relates to the fees portion only. There is no crediting back of interest under the model which we are putting in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022914ed70a7d4e47e1aaf79fe4f2675623\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022914ed70a7d4e47e1aaf79fe4f2675623\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I understand that, but, again, what we are seeing here is that a student did not actually, in fact, in those cases, have a $60,000 loan, because that $20k is supposed to be earmarked to be returned. This is, I think, fundamentally one of the concerns that we have when it comes to the previous system, which is that students apply, and that gets money directly to the university, whereas now the system is that a student has to take a loan first, in which case it actually does punish and penalise students further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo, in that sense, are you saying that it has not been considered at all that student loans would be, or, at least, the interest amount, which is not going to be paid\u2014I get that. But even the interest on the total sum of the loan isn\u2019t going to remove the portion that gets consolidated as part of the credit as the final-year fees-free scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002245aebb8380714335b7704c5988d1c131\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245aebb8380714335b7704c5988d1c131\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Just reminding the Minister of Revenue of my very simple question about clause 204 and the revocation of the Goods and Services Tax (Grants and Subsidies) Order 1992, and is there any policy difference between what was in that order and what is in the Schedule? There\u2019s COVID payments, which is obviously something that was added after 1992; there\u2019s also the earthquake support payments; there\u2019s payments made by the New Zealand Agency for International Development; and other loans of the Crown; and other various different benefits there. So a very simple question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022a94e6a4cf6e04cb7b46e779670fbd078\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a94e6a4cf6e04cb7b46e779670fbd078\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022897d7e132b654714b1edc236edb78a1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022897d7e132b654714b1edc236edb78a1d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 5 set out on Amendment Paper 247 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002284a1621202864ab0a5c2faa9f89a16c8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New\u00A0Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb019f21496d49e38e45861826f6bed1\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00222a599128c7f04f1da7722e7e244438ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a599128c7f04f1da7722e7e244438ab\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002281b43572ef9442408ba653407e5bb035\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New\u00A0Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c97c713afcb4be384f730a7613cabd4\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022463e9b486abb4da384ef5d15c1793441\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022463e9b486abb4da384ef5d15c1793441\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate. This is clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2: \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022802de6f5f522463d8ae766874d49dcda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022802de6f5f522463d8ae766874d49dcda\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll just help members with this point: the title of this bill is the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill. The title was chosen because that\u2019s, in effect, what the bill does and that\u2019s exactly what it focuses on. The commencement dates are outlined as part of this, which is very standard, and I\u2019m aware that the Finance and Expenditure Committee, while undertaking a full six-month process, did not suggest any changes in regard to both those points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022c525b1e7aeff41b3a53794afec1134a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c525b1e7aeff41b3a53794afec1134a0\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m sure that there are other colleagues who may be speaking more fully in terms of the commencement date\u2014where there are many, many, many, many subclauses. But I have a broader question around the commencement date, noting that a number of the commencement dates are retrospective. I\u2019m just checking in terms of the consistency against the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act report that it doesn\u2019t seem to mention anything in terms of retrospectivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI wondered from the Minister of Revenue\u2019s perspective: was there any test or any advice that the Minister has received regarding if there were any sort of retrospective penalties\u2014which, to be fair, often we think of from the perspective of criminal penalties, but it could also be financial penalties in some ways around section 26(1) of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. So because of the fact that there are substantial areas which are retrospective, I just want to check with the Minister if that has been a consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002221c1b198e07448e0b9562e8778b899fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221c1b198e07448e0b9562e8778b899fb\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. And, yeah, two particular questions in relation to the application dates for both clause 138, which is the \u201CAssessment of penalties related to crypto-asset reporting framework\u201D. If we look at the commencement date for it, it looks like it\u2019s 1 April 2026, so it\u2019s in a couple of years\u2019 time. Is that to align with the OECD when the crypto-asset reporting framework does come into force?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EAnd then my second question is actually in regards to the donee status\u2014so that is clause 115, page\u00A0128 of the bill; so donee status, or Schedule 32. Generally, if you are a charity in New Zealand, basically taxpayers, if they donate to you, you can get a tax credit back for that donation. If it\u2019s an overseas charity, they need to be listed on Schedule 32, which shows\u2014there\u2019s a number of them that are new in clause 115(2), so there\u2019s six new charities. But then it also deletes charities off the donee status list, so the Help a Child Foundation, Operation Vanuatu, Sampoerna Foundation Ltd, SpinningTop Trust, The Food Bank of New Zealand, Together for Uganda, and then at (4), it deletes Support Services for Humanity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ENow, if you look at clause 2(28), which is the commencement date for the charities that have been taken off, it does talk about clause 115(4), which is Support Services for Humanity. But just checking: should that also apply to clause 115(3B), given they\u2019re also being deleted, and should those charities which I listed\u2014Help a Child Foundation, etc.\u2014also be deleted, from 1 April 2029?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002239e5b79fc24a440eac888ee1a62cca56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239e5b79fc24a440eac888ee1a62cca56\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, thanks, Mr Chair. I mean, the questions in regards to both the Green member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s point around retrospectivity, and the member the Hon Barbara Edmonds\u2019 points around clauses 138 and clauses 115: in regards just to the point around clause 138 around crypto-assets, the member is correct in the context of the timing of when that legislation comes into play.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EClause 115 for standard adjustments around commencement when we are putting in place a new donee charity: in this case, we\u2019ve got Le Quesnoy, which is the World War II charity in France, which is obviously well known and something that has been well supported across the board. That\u2019ll make it a donee charity in the context of overseas charity status, but the context that the member mentioned about the removals and parts, those are standard aspects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe point that the Green member made in regards to whether we consider that throughout the passage of the other parts: there were a number of questions asked in regards to clauses which had retrospective commencement provisions and, from my recall, we did talk about those as they came up throughout. But that is to be expected in a taxation bill of this size and scale which deals with remedial issues. Retrospective changes are not done lightly. They are well considered, but often the reasoning underpinning that is to ensure the integrity of the tax system and also to be flexible in regards to taxpayers being able to take advantage of that, such as the point that we noted before around making a mistake and being able to retrospectively fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u00228c04e5dbf9be4edba295bf78ade7f924\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c04e5dbf9be4edba295bf78ade7f924\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have a question around the title clause and I just wanted to confirm my understanding of all the things that this bill is doing so I could potentially suggest some changes to that title clause, which is currently the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill. Now, look, I see the \u201CAnnual Rates for 2024-25\u201D there clearly and I see the \u201CEmergency Response\u201D bits there quite clearly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EBut there\u2019s a number of provisions there that are quite substantial that aren\u2019t reflected in the title clause\u2014for example, the Auckland Future Fund and all the amendments that exist to kind of further enable that, and also all the amendments in the Minister of Revenue\u2019s amendment that deal with the final-year fees-free scheme. Also\u2014this was in the original legislation even before the amendment\u2014the crypto-asset reporting framework. Would the Minister consider amending the title to either reflect all of these things that this bill actually considers, or to shorten it so that it just says \u201CAnnual Rates for 2025 and Remedial Measures Bill\u201D, which I believe does cover all of those wonderful topics?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022c26940d54e1146699341736da85a8e00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c26940d54e1146699341736da85a8e00\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u002296c0bd36289446d5a4e0361f8d729a84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296c0bd36289446d5a4e0361f8d729a84\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8942cc4c57f4259b9ad6d54df4645f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8942cc4c57f4259b9ad6d54df4645f1\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Really short question. Again, to clarify that clause 115(3B)\u2014because there is an application date for clause 115(2) in clause 1(23) of 1 April 2024. I can\u2019t find the application date for clause 115(3B), which is the deletion of the list of charities. But then in clause 115(4), that actually has an application date which the Minister clarified before, 1\u00A0April 2029. So I just need to ask the Minister of Revenue\u2014because unless it\u2019s an application date that is missing\u2014when does clause 115(3B) come into force?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EIt is an important question because I can\u2019t find the commencement date in those clauses. Again, my apologies if I\u2019ve missed it. There are a number of commencement dates. But it does seem unusual that there is a commencement date for subclause (2), there is a commencement date for subclause (4), but there is no commencement date for subclause (3B). It could be the date in which the bill comes into force or it could be, again, back-dated to 1 April 2024, which you see in clause 1(23). Or you could see in clause 1(28) it comes into force on 1 April 2029, which are very different dates. One\u2019s retrospective; one\u2019s prospective. I just want to clarify: when does clause 115(3B) come into force?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002239375aa381b4499fb839b9eabf05455b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239375aa381b4499fb839b9eabf05455b\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the member Barbara Edmonds is as excited about getting this bill passed as I am, because the answer to the member\u2019s question is: the point at which we pass this bill\u2014hopefully, very soon from now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022336cca461d924afe9c301d850357a319\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022336cca461d924afe9c301d850357a319\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00229431dee83637446b9c830a228073cf07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229431dee83637446b9c830a228073cf07\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Looking for new material\u2014the Hon Barbara Edmonds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7b8c4640cf04fa79a7b7fabe71291a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7b8c4640cf04fa79a7b7fabe71291a3\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, the Minister of Revenue responded that that provision should come into force very soon. What is \u201Cvery soon\u201D? It\u2019s quite clear\u2014again, I went through the dates. There are different dates for the commencement. I am responding directly to the Minister\u2019s response. When does that section come into force? If the commencement date is missing from the commencement clauses, then that\u2019s an issue. When does it apply? Is it a default position as to when the bill comes into force? Is it the position which was taken for retrospectivity around 1 April 2024 for clause 115(2)? Or is it prospective\u20141 April 2029\u2014for clause 115(4)? Just a very simple question, but it\u2019s important because it\u2019s the commencement date of when these charities are deleted from Schedule 32. Again, that applies because taxpayers who donate to these offshore charities can get a tax credit for it. It can be quite substantial because it can be up to the amount of their income here in New Zealand. I just want to clarify: when does it commence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022af175a6bdda5459080785e2b19117805\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af175a6bdda5459080785e2b19117805\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, I appreciate the member Barbara Edmonds\u2019 questions. The commencement clause will come into force on the day after the date on which the bill receives the Royal assent, and that is noted in clause 2, which is the commencement of the legislation, which the member has in front of her. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9e7ff7ffb5245bda810f0732d2c2c3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9e7ff7ffb5245bda810f0732d2c2c3e\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f5bb4e7fd4164d1aa291810c706fa972\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022703e29236be14472a6b9fd55fb19d789\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New\u00A0Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00224c30d6c0f43a42449e10883c803ee831\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c30d6c0f43a42449e10883c803ee831\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to clause 2 set out on Amendment Paper 247 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d4f15c7c7c2a4fdfa179c7eef7751b6d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New\u00A0Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d98a35259c344c46bedc976aa674b9fa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New\u00A0Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000496\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000497\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022aed8a2da7bcd433a9f9d0f85ab9ef159\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aed8a2da7bcd433a9f9d0f85ab9ef159\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has further considered the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d97db455cc2940548d44e46da9a493be\u0022\u003EThird Reading \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba4e4cd447db40f8b56ff89ddb6c0544\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba4e4cd447db40f8b56ff89ddb6c0544\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a6854274eca49d79d994fcf26383db5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219a70c3ad8da4279abb8a2f36c7d50a2\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWell, I\u2019m very proud to be part of a Government that is all about going for growth and making it easier to do business. That is exactly what this bill is about. I would like to thank the House and the members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee for their work on this bill, and their comprehensive input in terms of it. In the progress through the House, the bill has been considered by the Finance and Expenditure Committee, who recommended a number of changes, which we have discussed through the committee of the whole House. The bill as it is now has also had further amendments added through my Amendment Paper through that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe first aspect in regards to that was the added measure in regards to helping implement the replacement of the first-year tertiary education fees-free scheme with the final-year fees-free scheme. We\u2019re proposing data collection and sharing processes between the Inland Revenue Department and the Tertiary Education Commission to allow the two agencies to assess learner eligibility and to enable entitlements to be paid. This proposed change will allow eligible learner fees to be paid following the completion of a student\u2019s qualification or programme. This is an important change as New Zealand needs a skilled workforce. A skilled workforce obviously means that we can boost the economy by increasing productivity, attracting investment, and fostering innovation. It will also, importantly, mean that Kiwis have higher wages and more opportunities, particularly in high-skilled sectors. That is why it is important that we incentivise students to complete their studies. This approach will also reward learners who complete their programme of study and, of course, reduce the overall cost of study.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EImportantly, there are also changes in the bill which relate to the Le Quesnoy - New Zealand Memorial Museum Trust. This second measure honours our New Zealand troops who served in World War I. In the final week of World War I, the New Zealand division seized control of the French town of Le Quesnoy. Even today, the residents of that community continue to commemorate an important role that New Zealand played in its history, including by having a New Zealand memorial at that spot. That is why I am very proud that this bill includes another new measure within it that adds the New Zealand Memorial Museum Trust - Le Quesnoy to Schedule 32 and gives the trust permanent overseas donee status. This change means that the memorial museum will be treated the same as charities that operate here at home. I acknowledge members across the House, and past members, who have been working diligently to get this change made. At long last, that change has been made here in the House as a result of today, and that acknowledges those that have come before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EA primary focus for the Government, as I\u2019ve noted, is in the context of economic growth. We are very much committed around supporting the tech sector and start-ups\u2014key drivers of growth and also the aspect in regards to higher-paying jobs and attracting capital. The existing way that we support that tech sector is through encouraging the use of employee share schemes. To keep the exempt scheme effective, the bill also proposes measures to ensure it remains fit for purpose. We want to also smooth the path for migrants wanting to move their overseas pension funds here to New Zealand. Amongst a host of other measures, the bill also contains amendments to provide greater flexibility for the tax system to respond to emergency events. Also, importantly, it introduces measures to enact the crypto-asset framework into New Zealand legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAs with many bills under this Government, it also includes a wide range of remedial matters removing the compliance costs on New Zealand taxpayers. The bill covers a wide spectrum of tax system changes, but only one thing remains constant: the need for remedial measures in future tax bills. We can all look forward to those. Remedials are vital. They are important because the world keeps changing and we need to keep our tax legislation up to date. As society evolves, so must the tax system. Business models also change and the tax system must change with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhile headlighting tax policy changes may come and go, the key for New Zealand taxpayers and tax agents is ensuring that our tax system operates as quietly and efficiently as possible in the background. The private sector is keenly interested in our remedial work to keep the tax system fit for purpose in a changing world. That\u2019s why the bill includes a wide range of remedials, many small but all, of course, very important. They keep the tax system running efficiently, which keeps the entire machinery of Government operating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I would like to thank the policy officials from the Inland Revenue Department and the drafters of the legislation, all of whom do a significant amount of work for us in supporting our tax system. I acknowledge all of them as this bill is brought to its third reading. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00222acc29aae0834e74b8bb58d1e7984552\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222acc29aae0834e74b8bb58d1e7984552\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8a0f91284204c4e83a1a71b7b2cee6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8a0f91284204c4e83a1a71b7b2cee6d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This bill has been through a long, long examination in the committee of the whole House stage, and I thank the Minister of Revenue for his persistence with that. I thank, also, the officials who sat there and supported the Minister and, through that, supported the House in examining this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc5f9655f48a45088a1f0ce82067c1f0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Democracy done well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb08b58e9a5c4c7bb6e3013c68e36303\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: It was a lot of work, and, yes, as my colleague the Hon Dr Megan Woods says, democracy done well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe Minister said this bill was all about growth\u2014growth in the economy. It\u2019s an interesting claim for him to make, because when we asked him during the committee stage if he could name a measure for growth in this bill, he could come up with only one: the approved issuer levy. It took us to point out that the changes to the stock measures for shareholders in tech start-ups and the like was also a growth measure. It seems he didn\u2019t quite know his own bill as well as he might have. But it\u2019s an interesting thing, because just saying a bill is about growth doesn\u2019t make it so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere are a number of taxpayer-friendly measures in this bill, as would be expected\u2014measures to tidy up the tax system, to make it function better, to ensure that anomalies are tidied up, that the tax system, as the Minister said, must move to meet new conditions. But the bill itself is named after the emergency measures that were put in place. Now, let\u2019s just step back to this. These emergency measures are measures that are pulled out when we have black swan events\u2014events like the Auckland Anniversary Weekend floods, events like Cyclone Gabrielle, events like COVID\u2014where we needed to put in place special measures to help businesses through those times. Under our Government, we did that repeatedly, to the point where we said, \u201CActually, we need to have these measures ready to go when the next black swan event occurs.\u201D, as it will\u2014as it will. Now, I suppose that could be characterised as a measure for growth, but, really, it\u2019s an emergency measure, and that is what the bill is named for. If we go through all the other measures in the bill, they are tidy-up measures\u2014they are taxpayer-friendly, but they are tidy-up measures. It\u2019s more the silences in this bill that matter, not so much what\u2019s in here but what isn\u2019t there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAs we went through the committee stage of the bill, the Labour Party voted for all the sensible amendments there are in this bill, because the actual technical detail of tax in this country is, by and large, a very bipartisan matter. We tend to agree on the technical detail, and that\u2019s because the tax community, the tax policy people, the tax experts working in the big firms, even the politicians, tend to agree that we need to get the tax system right, that it shouldn\u2019t be full of special little measures for this lobby group and the other but we should just be getting it right, and that\u2019s the overall objective here. We voted for those measures, but the Labour Party will be voting against this bill overall, and that is because it fails to address a critical issue\u2014absolutely fails to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBack when that Government took office, in the briefing to the incoming Minister of Finance, Treasury warned very, very clearly that there is a structural deficit in our tax system; that the way that the tax system is set up, the way that Government expenditure is set up, means that over time there will be a permanent gap between the revenue that the Government collects and what it spends it on. That is because we have some needs in this country which we simply must meet\u2014around health, around welfare, around homes, around education\u2014expenditure that Governments are absolutely committed to no matter what banner they run under. There is a structural deficit in our tax system, and it is caused because there is a giant, gaping hole in the tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThat party will say, and parties have said over time, that we have a broad based - low rate tax system. That is simply not the case. We do have a low-rate tax system, but we do not have a broad-based tax system. We do not tax capital income. It creates a huge, longstanding gap in our tax system. In fact, the IMF has talked about it, the World Bank has talked about it, the OECD has talked about it, banks are talking about it, business leaders are talking about it. It is a critical gap in this bill. This bill does not address the overall structure of our tax system, and yet it is a critical need and it is a responsibility that that Minister of Revenue has. It is that Minister\u2019s job to protect our revenue system, and he is notably failing to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt has consequences. Failing to collect the revenue that this Government needs means that our health system is under strain, that there is unmet need in our health system, that there are people being pushed out on to private waiting lists where they are not getting seen, and it means that children are not being treated for palliative care. It means that people are queuing up at emergency departments because our health system is understaffed, and it\u2019s understaffed because it is underfunded. Why? Because we are not collecting sufficient revenue. So we have a huge problem there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWe have an increasing number of people on the unemployment benefit. Why? Because that Government is not supporting jobs. It\u2019s worth supporting jobs. We support jobs because when people are in work, there are all sorts of benefits, of course, to the people themselves, but that is part of what grows our revenue base as well. That Government\u2019s short-sightedness in cancelling construction projects that has left 13,000 workers leaving this country has also left our revenue system short. Jobs actually matter, and that Government needs to support jobs. In supporting jobs, we support our revenue system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThat Government stopped building homes\u2014it stopped building homes. It said it couldn\u2019t afford to do it anymore. Why? Because they are not collecting the revenue they need. Jobs, health, homes\u2014that Government is not supporting them, and the reason they cannot support them is because they are simply not collecting revenue. They are refusing to address the gaping hole in our tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard some hints from the Minister of Finance, we\u2019ve heard some hints from the Minister of Revenue that there\u2019ll be some work done on charities and the taxation of charities. There\u2019s a discussion paper out at the moment. We\u2019ve had some hints that there\u2019ll be some announcements in the Budget; we\u2019ll have to wait and see. So that Government, instead of going after the giant, gaping hole in our tax system, is going after the charities sector instead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere might be a case for it when charities are engaging in the sorts of activities that aren\u2019t real charitable work, but while they\u2019re going after the charities sector, they\u2019re also going after the small not-for-profits\u2014the small not-for-profits in our communities who\u2019ve been told in this latest tax discussion paper that they too may be up for taxation. I mean, that\u2019s the local embroiderers\u2019 guild. It\u2019s the local potters\u2019 club. It\u2019s not sports clubs\u2014they\u2019re exempted\u2014but it\u2019s all the small, little, local groups that operate as not-for-profits, working in our communities, supporting our communities, being part of our daily lives. That Government is saying, \u201CPerhaps we ought to consider taxing them.\u201D They are certainly saying we ought to consider how we tax charities, but what they are not considering is how we tax capital, and that is the gap in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo I say to that Government over there that they need to grow up. They need to get past the slogans. They need to get past just saying growth, growth, growth, growth, growth as though it\u2019s some kind of cargo cult. They actually need to do the hard work. They need to take a long, hard look at the structure of our economy, a long, hard look at the structure of our tax system, and then they need to take some hard decisions. But they won\u2019t. No courage, no capacity to do it, no interest in doing anything that\u2019s going to rock the status quo. So there\u2019s some good measures in this bill, but overall this bill is a failure and we will be voting against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2b56e33528048569c2e6c4645db3ee7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2b56e33528048569c2e6c4645db3ee7\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s welcome to hear the speech from the previous member, the Hon Deborah Russell. I\u2019m glad that after having comprehensively ruled out a capital gains tax in the previous election, Labour seems to be following the Green Party\u2019s lead and actually taxing capital, taxing wealth, and actually making sure that we have a fair tax system. Very welcome that we\u2019re still leading the left. That\u2019s welcome to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ENow, what this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3b6a6c0ee714ac1b6b1e24b88667735\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yes, you are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b52bdd87c5514ccfb7212a99604d1599\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s very acknowledged. Thank you for the acknowledgment, to that member on the left. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ENow, this bill does several things. One of them is to implement the changes to the annual tax rate. That\u2019s where we see a lot of the flaws\u2014and I\u2019ll get to that later\u2014because what they\u2019re proposing is actually deeply regressive in not only what it does but what it doesn\u2019t do, and the previous speaker went into that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EWhat it also does is enable a generic response to emergency events. That is one aspect of the legislation we do support. It should be easier to provide tax relief and we should enable the extension of emergency end dates much better. The crypto-asset reporting framework is also an important step forward. Some members were able to hear a briefing from Binance through the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and we heard through that this is something that the industry does support and it is something that will enable better protection of consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EIt enables the Auckland Future Fund, which is something that we have voted to support. But one of the things that it does do is that it enables the Tertiary Education Commission and it enables a lot of the frameworks around the final-year fees-free. That is something that we do not support. We don\u2019t support it because the supplementary analysis material that came with it was very clear, very adamant that this legislation would actually not have a net benefit compared to the status quo, which is the first-year fees-free, beyond moderate cost savings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThe supplementary analysis paper also went into some detail about how this policy does not fulfil the Crown\u2019s obligation under the Treaty of Waitangi and that this policy does not effectively address real barriers to equity of tertiary education access and achievement for M\u0101ori learners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ENow, I signposted earlier in my speech how the changes that this bill was enabling were deeply regressive. They\u2019re regressive in that they don\u2019t actually address the fundamental issue. The previous speaker was right; there is a gaping hole it doesn\u2019t address: the fact that 311 households hold more wealth than 2.5 million New Zealanders. It doesn\u2019t address that fundamental problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThe tax rates that it enables are deeply regressive, for example\u2014and I ran this through the Government\u2019s own calculator. A deputy chief executive at a ministry\u2014say, the Ministry for Regulation\u2014making $348,000 a year would get a tax cut of $20.50 a week. A minimum wage worker would be getting $12.02 of tax cuts, and a single parent on the benefit would be getting a tax cut of about $2 a week. Now, if someone who\u2019s at the top, someone who\u2019s making disproportionately more\u201410 times more than a beneficiary\u2014is getting a large amount of tax cut, then that just goes to show how regressive this truly is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ENow, one of the other things that we would have liked to see and that came up during the discussion was a question by my colleague Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan around the provisions around the emergency management measures and how, in some measures, it enabled tax relief for people earning an income, but we did ask a question about whether that could be potentially considered to extend to beneficiaries as well. But, alas, we, unfortunately, didn\u2019t get a response from the Minister of Revenue, and I think that\u2019s really sad to see. It\u2019s really important, because climate\u2014well, no, not just climate but disasters impact people unevenly. They impact people unevenly depending on the social strata and the socio-economic status that they belong to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ESomeone who is on a high income, who\u2019s making quite a lot of money, is able to respond to the shocks of disaster in general, depending on the level of disaster and how impacted their home has been, say, compared to a beneficiary on a more limited income. So we would have liked to see some consideration of the ideas that we are proposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EI talked about what the actual impact of ignoring that gaping hole is, and it is the broader context of the fiscal and economic decisions this Government has made since they\u2019ve taken office, and it\u2019s the legacy of cuts and degraded public services. Around the country, from Auckland to Dunedin, I\u2019ve talked to people, and a lot of New Zealanders are realising that something has fundamentally gone wrong with this country. They\u2019re seeing that their dollar isn\u2019t going as far as it used to, and they\u2019re seeing that the critical public services that they used to be able to rely on get degraded and get cut so much that they\u2019re not able to access what they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EOne of the things that this bill does is enable better emergency management response but, unfortunately, at the same time that this Government has enabled an easier emergency response, they\u2019ve made cuts to the critical infrastructure that underpins our emergency management capacity, such as GNS Science. This is a quote from one of the media releases that described their work as \u201Ccritical work helping New Zealand adapt to climate change and manage natural hazards and risks from earthquakes, tsunamis, and volcanic erosions.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also seen the negative impacts of the cuts felt across our police and our law and order services. This is a media release from the Police Association and they\u2019re saying, \u201CWe think that this will be a scattergun headcount-reduction exercise made in a silo by people who don\u2019t understand the work people do, who they do it for, and who also won\u2019t personally be affected by the outcome of the \u2018realignment\u2019 exercise.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EThat was about the cuts in the civilian workforce, but we\u2019ve also seen that there are 72 fewer police. This is something that is happening because the Government has chosen to prioritise tax cuts to the people making the megabucks that this legislation enables. We\u2019ve seen the impacts of it: a 12 percent increase in thefts at retail premises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ENow, one of the other services that, unfortunately, is being starved the funding, thanks to the tax regime that this legislation helps enable, is the health service. We\u2019ve seen the Public Service Association call out the nearly 3,300 staff going at Health New Zealand and the impact it has on the front line has been well reported. One doctor who was speaking to RNZ said, \u201COne shift I made seven beds, answered a million phone calls, and fixed the printer. Is this a really good use of my time? I suspect I\u2019m the most expensive person there.\u201D But what that also shows is the bogus division between the front line and the back line, because, actually, a lot of the front-line workers know that they rely on the critical work that the back-line staff do, the administrative staff, the people who actually go on to support the critical work that the front line is doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EBut we\u2019ve seen the impact of actually trying to do more for less; this rhetoric that you can somehow cut the funding and still get better or at least neutral outcomes. We\u2019ve seen that in the school lunches programme. We\u2019ve seen that in the impact of children having to put up with burnt lunches or plastic or just really degraded quality. That ideology fundamentally doesn\u2019t work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EBut help is on its way. We\u2019ve got the Green Budget coming up in a couple of months and we\u2019re presenting an alternative vision of what we think Aotearoa should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222d7978e22f94d3aaee0ca8fc0c89cd1\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Degrowth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0e763fbc75b49f38e5623476c6679d6\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re presenting a comprehensive policy that will actually enable the critical public services that we rely on, that doesn\u2019t rely on imaginary market-based mechanisms, that actually relies on making sure that everyone has what they need to thrive, unlike this Government with its record unemployment rate, with an economy that\u2019s still actually\u2014well, one member there was saying \u201Cdegrowth\u201D, but the economy is actually more than it was this time last quarter, so they\u2019ve done the degrowth and we will green grow New Zealand. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u00228cf8ee193a6a4fe0a6a303db03d5a62e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cf8ee193a6a4fe0a6a303db03d5a62e\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity to rise on behalf of ACT to speak on this Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003ENow, the ACT Party does not like lots of tax, but some tax is all right, and you do need to have it. So I am very proud to be supporting this Government\u2019s agenda to make business easier, to have an efficient background tax system that makes it efficient for New Zealanders to go about their business without the large admin costs\u2014not just for the businesses and trusts and charities but also for the Public Service that is administering the tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EI think I can agree with one thing that the Opposition has said today: it has been through a thorough committee of the whole House. I think we spent a good amount of time getting into every little bit and asking multiple questions, sometimes on the same topic. This is going to lead to a swifter tax response in emergency events, providing earlier certainty for affected taxpayers I think we can agree that the work done in that space has been a good thing. There are some tidy-up measures, as Dr Deborah Russell has said, but she also said another thing, which was quite interesting: this is to address structural deficits in the tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EWell, I think the Piketty cargo cult that Modern Monetary Theory would just keep raining down from the sky on to the landing strip of a South Pacific island and all we have to do is dress up as if it was going to work for ever is really the definition of the \u201Ccargo cult\u201D that Deborah Russell was talking about there. Industry supports it. I support it. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u002225638c827d1e4b4eb3aed670d9db5722\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225638c827d1e4b4eb3aed670d9db5722\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First is proud to support this bill. It aligns, as far as I can see, with our commitment to fairness, to efficiency, and to economic resilience, and we believe that these changes are about an efficient and effective tax system. As we\u2019ve heard, the bill has been through a thorough process. It\u2019s about providing for a practical, well-balanced tax policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ELook, what I\u2019ve heard from the Opposition\u2014it\u2019s really quite interesting, they\u2019ve basically said, \u201CWe like what\u2019s in there; we don\u2019t like what isn\u2019t in there.\u201D That\u2019s a really strange approach to take, saying, \u201CWell, we\u2019re going to vote against it because you didn\u2019t include a whole lot of other stuff.\u201D Well, funnily enough, most legislation doesn\u2019t include everything you want, but at least if it moves you forward, that\u2019s quite a sensible thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ESo what does it do? Well, some of the things we\u2019ve already heard about is that it improves the ability to be able to respond to emergency events and provide tax relief for people who are under pressure as a result of emergency events\u2014that makes sense. We\u2019ve heard about the FamilyBoost\u2014that makes sense. We\u2019ve heard support from the Greens around the way in which crypto is dealt with in terms of taxation, and they like the Auckland Future Fund, but they\u2019re still going to vote against it. Why are they going to vote against it? Basically, what both parties across the aisle have said is they want to see a wealth tax\u2014they want to see a wealth tax. That\u2019s the approach that they\u2019ve taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EDeborah Russell stands up and says that there is a giant, gaping hole in the tax system. Well, part of that is because our economy got so damaged by her very party. We now are paying something like close to $10 billion a year, and rising, to fund the deficit\u2014to fund the deficit. That is just the interest cost on that debt. That is part of that giant, gaping hole. If we didn\u2019t have to do that\u2014it\u2019s like a family with a mortgage versus a family without a mortgage: you\u2019re a lot better off. So that is part of that giant, gaping hole, and that is part of the response to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EAcross the other side of the House, their approach is just to say, \u201CLet\u2019s tax more and more and more.\u201D The effect of taxing more and more and more is going to drive business out of business. It\u2019s going to mean that people who would invest in New Zealand are going to say, \u201CNo, I\u2019m not going to invest in New Zealand.\u201D So what that will do is reduce the size of the economy, all other things being equal. That is not what this this Government stands for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThis Government stands for growing our economy. If we grow our economy, we start fixing that giant, gaping hole that Deborah Russell was talking about, because we have more money to be able to spend on the things which we all want to do. We want to spend more on health. We want to spend more on education. We want to spend more\u2014actually, we want to have a high-quality lifestyle. We cannot do that by taxing our economy into the floor. That is what we\u2019re hearing from the red party and the Green Party over there. They talk about growth as if it is a bad thing. But it is not a bad thing. That is what we have to do if we are going to remain a First World economy with high living standards and good quality services. What I heard, particularly from Deborah Russell, was, \u201CIt\u2019s a good bill, but it\u2019s not good enough, and therefore we are going to vote against it.\u201D To me that seems to be a particularly strange approach, a very unproductive approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe other thing I heard from the Green Party: this bill simply confirms the tax rates and the tax brackets which have already been agreed through the Budget process. Now, you might not like those, but this is giving effect to those processes. Francisco Hernandez stood up and said, \u201CWell, the people who\u2019ve got the most money\u201D\u2014the higher tax brackets\u2014\u201Cget a bigger tax reduction than the people who are further down.\u201D Well, actually, all of those tax targets were about the lower and middle income at most. If you\u2019re paying a whole lot more in tax, funnily enough, when you get tax reductions, it tends to benefit you slightly more, not in percentage terms\u2014not in percentage terms\u2014but in dollar terms. Funny that\u2014because you\u2019re paying a lot more tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ECan I remind the people on the other side of the House that it\u2019s only about half of our population that actually pays tax net of transfers\u2014only about half of it. So those people at the top, the people you like to malign all the time, are the people who are paying the taxes. They might earn more, they might own more, but they are still paying a heck of a lot more tax than the people at the bottom who earn less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThis is a sensible, practical way of giving effect to decisions which have, effectively, already been made. It\u2019s been through a thorough and rigorous process. I understand the Opposition not liking it, but it is a very counterproductive argument to say, \u201CWe like the bits that are in there; we don\u2019t like the bits that aren\u2019t in there.\u201D Obviously, what we\u2019re hearing from the Opposition is political speeches saying, \u201CWe want wealth taxes.\u201D That is a message, loud and clear, that New Zealanders should hear: \u201CWe want wealth taxes, we want capital gains taxes, and we want to make sure that our economy is not a robust, First World economy.\u201D This Government rejects that approach, and I would like to commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00224bcd8a69d43a41768fff8ea5091e8c85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bcd8a69d43a41768fff8ea5091e8c85\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f77926ba0a045e482751e1ae46d2d34\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: I guess I\u2019m doing the first split.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022443443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4f1e1bbc5a24d8c9adf54ec264a74dc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022b21b50c06e924c6a90b7d5afda0af8de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b21b50c06e924c6a90b7d5afda0af8de\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am particularly heartened by the fact that the other side of the House is listening very intently in terms of what the Greens\u2019 vision for taxation is like, and I do find that heartening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut let us just be very clear about this\u2014and I think we do need to start off with some of the context\u2014because we are in the third reading, and we do want to round up some of the conversations from the committee of the whole House stage. I think from the committee stage, one of the important things\u2014and we discussed things around health and safety and emergency response. Those were key components of this bill which we did discuss. We did talk a little bit about FamilyBoost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI want to just sort of mention in terms of the final-year fees-free scheme in particular, alongside my colleague Francisco Hernandez, the fact that what we are seeing is a policy that is ill-thought-out and will actually not benefit the students anywhere. Particularly when we are asking the Minister of Revenue about how the students are going to have that reimbursement if they go overseas and their interest rate was to be compounded as part of their original loan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIt seems like a lot of these sorts of nuances of our interest and loan\u2014particularly in light of the fact as of next week, as of 1 April, we are going to be seeing New Zealanders overseas having their student loan interest rate increase by 1 percent, and the debt increase by 1 percent as well on the fact that they are already unable to pay for some of that debt. We are actually not getting that debt back. There is no evidence to suggest that the repayment has increased. We are actually just punishing our own people overseas. It is a concern when we are having a policy such as the final-year fees-free scheme which has not thought that part out, also, in light of record immigration of our young people to other countries because we have not given them the opportunities to stay in Aotearoa after they complete their degree. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThat is a problem because we are taking\u2014or more precisely this Government is taking\u2014an austere approach to our economy. We have seen record numbers of unemployment. If unemployment is the growth that this Government is talking about, then, yes, we are seeing a growth in unemployment. We are seeing a growth in more homelessness, particularly in M\u0101ori communities. We are going to be seeing a growth in our prison population, particularly from M\u0101ori, as a result of the issues that we are seeing in this case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut just in terms of when we\u2019re looking at particularly this bill, and just to remind this House of some of those key stats that we have seen in the regulatory impact statement: the top 40 percent of people in Aotearoa will receive $1.6 billion in tax relief, which makes up 55 percent of the total relief package. The bottom 20 percent of Aotearoa, if you really want to look at\u2014and you can talk about all of the pretty terms, of the fact this benefits low and medium income earners, but the bottom 20 percent of Aotearoa only will receive 5.4 percent of the relief package. That is not us making that up; that is in the stats and that is in the document that we have received as a part of this bill: 130,000 people will get nothing at all, and 8,000 households will be worse off as a result of this package. The top 311 households, as we know, hold more wealth in Aotearoa than the bottom 50 percent of the population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThese are numbers, these are facts, and this is what we mean when we say that we do not support this bill because what we want to see is a fairer tax system. It doesn\u2019t necessarily mean that for some people we will be taxing more, but it needs to be fair and equitable. If we want to keep some of the money in Aotearoa as opposed to sending it overseas\u2014just to give another example, Bupa, a retirement manager, as we have been told, made $900 million, but they paid an effective tax rate of $11,000. That is what we\u2019re seeing when we don\u2019t have a fair tax system. So we will not support this, because this is not fair for most people in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u00225c0d6c7d99a84be4b1ce05670350368f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c0d6c7d99a84be4b1ce05670350368f\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I stand up here today, proud and sad, in some respects. I\u2019m proud to support this, being the third reading of a bill which has had much deliberation, but sad because the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2019s father passed away in the early hours of this morning. So, whilst he can\u2019t be here, I just want to acknowledge that loss of Cameron Brewer\u2019s dad, David, and I know that David would be very proud of the big impact in a short amount of time that Cameron Brewer has made in Parliament, and now as chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee. So, while the family grieves, on behalf of Cameron and his family, I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00223cc5f8624b324592b1584b49a87f845a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223cc5f8624b324592b1584b49a87f845a\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I do want to acknowledge the previous speaker Ryan Hamilton\u2019s condolences to the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, Cameron Brewer, and his wh\u0101nau on the loss of their father. I do want to echo those sentiments. This is still a House where people work and we may have differences of opinion and show them across the House all the time, but, ultimately, we have families, and when family calls, that\u2019s where we should be. I want to acknowledge the Brewer family and the wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been a really interesting period. Since December, I have attended 10 funerals. That\u2019s a lot. They were between December and March, and in one week in December, there were actually four funerals that I attended. For some of these people, a lot of it is in relation to dying very young. You realise your age when your friends around you and people who are not too much older than you pass away. So I do want to just extend those further condolences to the families of the people that I\u2019ve attended\u2014including workers from this House, with Jenny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EMy very good friend Marina, or Bino, Akavi\u2014she was 49. She had three children who were between the ages of 18 and 23, and she died from bowel cancer. Now, the reason why I want to mention in particular our friend Bino and why she died from bowel cancer is that she was a Cook Islander. There are statistics out there that show that for people who get bowel cancer, generally you get it younger if you\u2019re M\u0101ori or Pacific, and a really important part of treating bowel cancer is being able to get it quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge that there have been some changes to the bowel cancer screening programme and that this will help more New Zealanders. However, it is a fact that M\u0101ori and Pacific people die earlier from bowel cancer, and so we want them to be screened even earlier. The question, and why it\u2019s related to this bill, is that when the resources are stretched and when finance and funding for Government services, including healthcare, are stretched, it is really important that Governments make the choices, backed by evidence, to ensure that the scarce resources that the Government receives through revenue and through the way that we tax revenue\u2014whether it\u2019s a levy in other Acts or revenue from within the tax Acts\u2014that it is sufficient enough to deal with the choices that Governments have to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThis is my concern and it\u2019s why Labour is not supporting this bill. The main reason why we\u2019re not supporting it is because it has provisions that include tax cuts, but those tax cuts come at a price. They come in and they limit choices made by Governments, and we can stand on this side of the House, in the Opposition and in the Labour Party, and we can fire across the House every day, as we do\u2014sometimes we stand there gracefully and just accept the fire coming back\u2014but we stand here, fighting for those choices for people who have no voice in this House, which is why we stand here in this House, why we fight for those resources, and why we fight for that funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EAs we\u2019ve seen with this tax bill\u2014because, again, it confirms the annual rates for the next tax year, because it has to be done through Parliament\u2014it gives a tax cut. But the Opposition has clearly shown to the Government that through its choices, it means that services to the everyday public are being cut, because you have to pay for the tax cuts\u2014you have to pay for it. If you\u2019re going to reduce the income tax rates, it means that there is a hole in the Government Budget. It means that this Government has made the choice to cut services and funding for key things like healthcare, and I don\u2019t need to repeat the amount of examples almost every day that different members of this House are asking the Minister of Health about. What about the mothers in this area, what about these cancer patients, and what about these patients who are having to wait even longer for their surgery, even longer at the A \u0026amp; E\u2014which is now being replaced in many places by telehealth? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThese are the choices you make as Government, and I can hear members on the other side saying, \u201CBring out the banjos. Bring out the instruments.\u201D\u2014say that to your constituents when they can\u2019t access their doctor or when they can\u2019t go to their doctor because their GP fees have gone up too high because this Government has made a choice not to fund GP services by more than what was required by officials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022652e63c5507f40459b10452085fb3819\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What did you do for six years? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022933b71bb3e7c42b0b162d7e17dd1fe9f\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Then I hear\u2014no, no, this is for the annual year. It\u2019s quite clear that I\u2019ve hit a bit of a sore point with Government members. It\u2019s quite clear, because you can hear the interjections\u2014because they don\u2019t want to face their communities and say, \u201CI\u2019m sorry your GP fees have gone up because we chose to fund it by only 4 percent, even though officials were saying 5 percent.\u201D It is an annual formula. It is an annual decision. Your decision to give tax cuts comes at a cost. It comes at a cost, and that is the cost of these decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EAs we\u2019ve heard from other members on this side of the House who have talked about that structural deficit, they\u2019ve talked about the spending that had to be done during a pandemic. But I can still hear New Zealand First members piping up, so let\u2019s talk about those tobacco tax cuts, if the members of New Zealand First really want to go there. The tobacco tax cuts, or the $2.9 billion that was given to landlords\u2014these are all tax choices, and, again, it\u2019s the confirmation of the annual rates in this tax bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258d5e1d9dece49428ee3f9c8e27b0764\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: You didn\u2019t mention this in select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b77cbca731d14b388984b1a3c10d034d\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: And that member, who\u2019s quite new to the select committee, says, \u201CYou didn\u2019t mention this in select committee.\u201D\u2014Dan Bidois. You don\u2019t mention this in select committee, because the purpose of select committee is to try and make a bill workable. That is the purpose of a select committee, and you\u2019ll have your chance here in the House to defend your decisions to confirm the annual tax rates, to take more money out of Kiwis, and to take more money out of the healthcare system. Again, I remind the members, every day we are getting examples. [Interruption] And then we hear \u201CMore money for health.\u201D, but do you know what? The assessment of the health budget last year showed that it wasn\u2019t sufficient for inflation and it wasn\u2019t sufficient for population growth, so it\u2019s going to be really interesting to see how this year\u2019s Budget is going to address a lag already for population growth and already for inflation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EBut that will be a speech for another night, because, again, we go through this House fighting for the things that everyday people want us to fight for. They want to be able to send their kids on the school bus because it\u2019s cheaper, they want to be able to see their doctor but sometimes they can\u2019t afford it, and this bill, basically, creates the hole in which that Government had to make choices to take things away from everyday Kiwis, and what for? So that we can have a sicker population, so that we can have fewer people in jobs, and so that we can have fewer homes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EDo you know what, when you have this revenue hole, what they\u2019ve had to do is borrow more money in order to cover the revenue hole, and it doesn\u2019t make sense\u2014it really doesn\u2019t make sense\u2014given that we\u2019ve heard, time and time again, the Minister of Finance say that we don\u2019t need to borrow for these tax cuts. It was pretty crystal clear in the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update that the Minister of Finance had had to borrow for those tax cuts, but, again, it\u2019s all come at a choice. These cumulative choices that the Government has made have meant that we are standing here in the House not supporting a bill, because all the choices that those members have made since they\u2019ve come into Government have had a huge impact on Kiwis. They have meant that more people are waiting and that they can\u2019t afford their GP fees. [Interruption] Every member on that side of the House will have a chance to respond, but these are the stories that we are hearing from the different electorates which we represent, and these are all the different\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280899dc17e494171bca1baf1202c67b9\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Which electorate are you in? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270c745eac9f5405d896d831d95867bbb\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m still the MP for Mana until 2026. At least I know where Mana is, unlike Tim Costley from \u014Ctaki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ETherefore, we do not support this bill. It provides pitiful choices for everyday New Zealanders, and this bill is a travesty because it is creating a bigger hole in our revenue system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226863d73b63574a66938f8fce1cee3f80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226863d73b63574a66938f8fce1cee3f80\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. The House will resume at 7.30. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.57 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002274668744a6734406a528c43836f210a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274668744a6734406a528c43836f210a9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is resumed. The question before the House is that the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill be now read a third time. There are four calls remaining. The next call is a National Party call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u00221e2ebd81f57345a6b00bf047100f781f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e2ebd81f57345a6b00bf047100f781f\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you for reading that entire, long name of the bill for me. I\u2019m standing to support and to commend this bill to the House. A little bit of myth busting, because our Opposition members seem to think that 3.4 percent of New Zealand taxpayers get most of the tax cuts and pay less of the tax income, but that is not the truth\u2014they pay 30 percent of New Zealand\u2019s tax income. That is, on average, $112,000 per person, compared to the remaining taxpayers, who are the 96.6 percent of taxpayers, who pay, on average, $9,000 per person. Regardless, this bill is to make sure that our tax system is more efficient, more up to speed, and more up to date for the modern society and for New Zealand as a whole, which will benefit all New Zealanders, no matter where you live and who you are. That\u2019s why I\u2019m commending this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00224261b6500f8d4d878d6bb001cd8da65c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224261b6500f8d4d878d6bb001cd8da65c\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to stand and speak in the third reading of this bill. Our spokesperson on this matter has already made Labour\u2019s position clear that we will not be supporting this bill in its third reading, and highlighted how going through a strong democratic process has truly teased out these important matters that find themselves locked in bills like this. It\u2019s easy to have a look at the title of this bill and think it only adjusts the annual rates. It makes mention of the emergency response matters and other remedial matters. But it is important, as we move to pass this\u2014well, as the House considers this bill\u2014that we make sure that those matters within the bill are interrogated. It is true that the devil is in the detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on a couple of points made by Government members in the third reading of this bill. The first point I\u2019d like to make is regarding a New Zealand First member who said that Labour\u2019s stance on this bill is, at least to their mind, unfathomable. I can\u2019t recall the word exactly that he used, but he did say that he found it odd that Labour supported bits of the bill as it was going through the committee of the whole House, but, in the third reading, opposes the bill in its entirety. It is the right of the Labour Party and all parties in this House to take a considered position on this bill. But I do highlight to that member and his party: it\u2019s a lot like saying, \u201CWe support the Treaty principles bill but it\u2019s dead in the water.\u201D It just doesn\u2019t make sense, on a scale far greater and far more costly than the accusations that were put towards the Labour Party just before the dinner break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo to this bill. We spoke at length about some of the emergency matters in this particular bill, about how it was designed to streamline the way that we are able to respond with respect to tax matters during emergency events. I know members canvassed it well, but I still want to place this caveat for consideration, as members consider this bill in its third reading but also its implementation into the future. And that is this: every emergency situation is unique. Now, it\u2019s easy for one to say a flood\u2019s a flood, a drought is a drought, or whatever, but the fact of the matter is every single one\u2014and, Madam Speaker, no stranger on the West Coast\u2014no flood is the same, no particular emergency is the same. As we consider the application of the parts of this bill looking towards streamlining emergency response and support, in particular with regard to tax and business matters around regulation settings, we must make sure that we continue to remind ourselves that there are different circumstances as we look towards emergency matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAnother part in the bill is we look towards adjusting the annual rates, and we\u2019ve heard a lot of figures in this House, on both sides, speaking of what\u2019s in there, what\u2019s not in there\u2014how, if you tinker, it looks like this; how, if you had made wholesale changes, it looks like this. One of the firm beliefs I\u2019ve always had, and I said it in my second reading speech on this particular bill, is that Kiwis just want to understand that when they work hard and they go about their daily business, the tax system is going to do what it does, and it does it well and it does it fairly. One of the challenges\u2014and my colleagues have pointed out how, in particular, if you tinker around the edges, there is also the fear that many of our taxpayers or all of our taxpayers out in New Zealand continue to be far more confused by what\u2019s happening as a whole; but also the minor changes around the edges that we see dotted throughout this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EJust in the final 40-odd seconds that I have left, it was spoken about the World War I war memorial in Le Quesnoy\u2014Le Quesnoy? I\u2019m pretty sure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ecaa8d416c34f3187cef0badceb4212\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Le Quesnoy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eabffa75cfd04a25a3ccc54fd5ced097\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Le Quesnoy. I remember the Rt Hon Sir Don McKinnon was a big supporter of this particular matter, and I sat on a number of boards with him where he would continue to grab my ear and continue to talk to me about why this was an important matter. I was defence Minister at the time. I\u2019m really pleased to see that that particular matter has come through this particular bill. But as I stated at the start of my contribution, we will not be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00220f2bc3d86cc64fd2b44e41f5a4bf36dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f2bc3d86cc64fd2b44e41f5a4bf36dc\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E The matters involved in this bill have been traversed extensively through this House. In fact, we spent more time at the committee stage in this House than we did in the select committee process, and all we heard from the committee stage is \u201CMore tax\u201D from the opposite side. We are a Government that believes in an efficient tax system but, ultimately, a minimal tax system, and that is what this bill tries to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI commend the Finance and Expenditure Committee, of which I am a proud member, for doing the due diligence on this bill. I acknowledge and just want to shout out to my dear friend and colleague Cameron Brewer, who is dealing with the loss of his father today. Our thoughts are with you, Cameron. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002259ea88312014452c9ad67338ebb2dbb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259ea88312014452c9ad67338ebb2dbb9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to echo what my colleague the Hon Barbara Edmonds started with in her contribution: on this side of the House: we give our well wishes to the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, Cameron Brewer. It\u2019s never easy to lose a parent, and our thoughts are with the wh\u0101nau as they work through this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EMy colleagues have stood in this House and they\u2019ve made it clear that Labour won\u2019t be supporting this bill, and we\u2019ve made clear our reasons. Although it doesn\u2019t look like it\u2014it sometimes looks like a very dry, very technical piece of legislation, when you have a tax bill in front of you\u2014it is in taxation legislation where the values of Governments really are laid bare. And that\u2019s what we see with this bill. The Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25 Emergency Response and Remedial Measures) Bill is laying bare the values of this Government. We\u2019ve heard members of the Government stand up and say that this is a bill that is about going for growth, despite the fact that, when the Minister was in the chair for 7\u00BD hours in the committee stage, when we examined this bill, he could not point us to where the growth was coming in this bill; how we were going to create wealth in New Zealand. There is nothing in here. Seven and a half hours, the Minister had, to tell us where that was, and he couldn\u2019t show it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we were able to drill down into\u2014what we\u2019re seeing in this bill\u2014is the fact that there is not sufficient revenue to pay for what New Zealanders need. I think all of us have just spent a recess week back in our electorates. What have we heard? I\u2019ve had people coming into my electorate office who are homeless. That\u2019s not the celebration of saying you\u2019ve reduced the number of people in emergency accommodation. This is now kids who are living in cars. These are people who cannot be housed. This is me going to visit one of my constituents in Hornby who had K\u0101inga Ora (KO) coming round to visit her that day because her KO house is now for sale. That\u2019s the kind of Government that we have. Instead of building our public housing stock and people\u2019s houses, what are they doing? They are reducing them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223177c8179624418a81ced838e999dd5\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Labour sold thousands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c3f7a610da94b4188a2a0d003a1e120\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Did you sell KO houses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e45f42af95745b1bc0c5171a3645d5d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I can hear bleating from the Government benches that they are increasing it. No, all they are doing is building out the funding that Labour put in. What we saw in this Budget, from these revenue measures, was insufficient revenue going into housing, going into keeping New Zealanders safe in their homes, and providing them the most basic of shelter and safety that they need. So, when the Government talks about how many houses have been delivered, make no mistake: these were houses that were planned, contracted, and funded under Labour. It is from June 2025 this year that we will see this Government\u2019s values come into play, and that is the fact: that their growth in public housing is miniscule. In fact, what we will see is again State house sell-offs, and I know because I\u2019ve spoken to constituents who have had KO visiting them. So do not stand here and tell us you\u2019re increasing houses; the Government is running down the funding that a Labour Government put in to make sure that New Zealanders had that security of a home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think there\u2019s one of us that sits in our electorate offices and doesn\u2019t hear and listen to constituents talking about the health system. We had a Government, during the campaign, that waxed lyrical about how they were going to fix the health system. Well, I\u2019m having constituents come in who are waiting longer than ever before to see a specialist. I\u2019m having constituents come in who are going to face increased charges at general practice. I\u2019m having constituents come in who actually just cannot access that health system. What are we seeing? We\u2019re seeing just a constant barrage of headlines about a Government that is not generating sufficient revenue to adequately fund a health system. Instead, we\u2019re seeing headlines about job losses within our health system. We\u2019re seeing the fact that people on sick leave won\u2019t be covered. We\u2019re seeing that vacant positions won\u2019t be covered. These are front-line workers. These are the front-line workers of our health system that are required to make New Zealanders feel safe when they enter their health system, not to have it run down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat else have we seen? We\u2019ve seen people that are losing their jobs, and we\u2019ve heard in this House today\u2014we\u2019re reminded about Nicola Willis who gloatingly said that we\u2019re going to see a reduction of people walking down Lambton Quay wearing a lanyard. What we\u2019re seeing is thousands and thousands and thousands of construction sector jobs disappearing overseas because this is a Government that has got its priorities wrong. It\u2019s got its priorities wrong when it comes to taxation. We\u2019ve seen that: we saw tax cuts for landlords rather than actually stimulating a housing market. We\u2019ve seen pulling back on infrastructure projects. And it is inevitable that those workers who are not going to find work\u2014and secure work\u2014in New Zealand are going to up sticks and they\u2019re going to move to Australia, and they are voting with their feet. We are seeing that. We are seeing the loss of that, and we are seeing the loss of that because of decisions that this Government is making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to that job security, something that New Zealanders should be able to rely on their Government to have their backs when times are tough, we\u2019re not seeing it coming from this Government. Instead, there are tax cuts for landlords and there are tobacco tax cuts in the Budget. That\u2019s what we\u2019re seeing in terms of the priorities. Meanwhile, our health system is crumbling and is not being adequately funded, and we certainly are not seeing the investment we see in that most basic of need: a home for New Zealanders, to make people feel safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThere are other cuts, and the Government is trying to dress up these cuts all over the show. One that I\u2019m most aware of is one that has just occurred in Christchurch, where the Government came down\u2014the Minister of Transport and the Prime Minister came down\u2014and said, \u201CChristchurch, you are so lucky. Our largesse is going to mean we\u2019re going to reinstate a project we\u2019ve cancelled.\u201D\u2014that Labour had fully funded. What they did not tell the people of Christchurch is that they were robbing funding that had been put in place to pay for improving the public transport system in Christchurch\u2014$78 million that Labour had put in place to improve public transport in Christchurch\u2014has been pilfered by this Government to pay for other projects. The people of Christchurch deserve better. They deserve both projects, because that is what Labour had delivered for them. All we\u2019re asking\u2014all we\u2019re asking\u2014is that they do no harm. They haven\u2019t put any additional funding into Christchurch. All we\u2019re asking is they don\u2019t take away what Labour had already put into Christchurch. They are halving what the people of Christchurch are getting. National is not backing the South Island, and it certainly is not backing Christchurch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2e65ff435df45388884b15c922eb95a\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: More money than you did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226770d72e5ed24e4aa283a322156289c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Instead of putting money in, it is taking away money that a Labour Government put there for the people of Christchurch, and any amount of yelling across the House that \u201Cit\u2019s more money that you\u2019re putting in\u201D simply does not stack up. It is simply incorrect, and it is simply, at best, disingenuous to say that is the case. Christchurch people can count; they can see, when you take away funding from one project and then reinstate it by cancelling another, that it\u2019s half of what you had before. That is exactly what the National Government is delivering to the people of Christchurch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo, when it comes to what people should expect of their Government through a taxation bill, it is about generating enough revenue to pay for homes, to pay for an adequate health system, to make sure the kind of things that are going on\u2014that we can have a place where people have security of work and feel like they aren\u2019t going to have a Government that is going to start putting in measures that is going to cause them to up sticks and leave, like we\u2019ve seen with 13,000 construction workers. And what we also think people deserve from their Government is for them to be transparent and honest about where funding is coming from. So, when you come to town and are delivering a funding cut, have the backbone to front up and tell people that\u2019s exactly what you\u2019re doing, rather than trying to dress up a funding cut\u2014not you, Madam Speaker\u2014as some kind of largesse, because people are not buying it. What we have is a Government that has laid clear its values. It certainly is not on the side of New Zealanders, and it is a Government that is letting down New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec51aa9a97984008a288d9b3709993e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec51aa9a97984008a288d9b3709993e1\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s an honour to be the final speaker in this third reading of the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002234d1c2b04df548ca9c8770037f1031b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234d1c2b04df548ca9c8770037f1031b9\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s an even bigger honour to be the final, final speaker on this bill. The reason that we reject this bill is that even though it has a technical sounding name and it has many, many technical elements to it\u2014as we have heard through the 7\u00BD hours of committee of the whole House stage\u2014actually, the substantive part in the bill that would have afforded this Government to show that it cared for New Zealand is contained in Part 1, and they did nothing to make sure that they had enough money to look after the needs of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI want to focus my comments on the key areas of jobs, health, and homes, because what this bill basically does is reinforce the movement from New Zealand to Australia of many of our most qualified people\u2014including the 13,000 mentioned by my colleague the Hon Dr Megan Woods\u2014who have gone to Australia or elsewhere from the construction sector because there is not enough money to be able to support the pipeline of construction projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhen we look at health, there are numerous examples of where there has just been enough money in the last Budget to keep the lights on and there is no more money to support surgeries. We\u2019ve heard this morning in the media about the Government contributing an extra $50 million to, essentially, buy private services to try and ease the waiting lists in the healthcare system because there has not been enough money put into health. The effective investment in health, despite what the Government says\u2014and the new Minister Simeon Brown got it wrong and had to be corrected by my colleague the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall about the funding for health\u2014the effective amount of health that has gone in to all the regions is a cut of between 4 and 16 percent across each of the regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENo wonder we are hearing the social services saying that there is just not enough money to provide the services that Government need\u2014either through the Public Service or through the NGO sector\u2014which the Government funds. That is clearly the message that I heard when I was at the seniors sector expo last week, where there were numerous Government agencies talking about cuts to the front line\u2014what it meant for them\u2014which was cuts to NGOs, cuts to the type of services they can give, for example, to support families who have had people impacted by stroke or other debilitating medical conditions. So that is the area of health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got Dunedin Hospital\u2014months and months of waiting to get a half-decent response on the hospital because there was not enough money from the tax take to be able to simply go ahead and give the southern region the hospital that it needed. And still today there is no solution for pathology in the Dunedin Hospital. In fact, there was a picket at the front of Parliament because the pathology unit is not in the hospital, and pathologists in the public sector do not get paid the same amount as in the private sector because some time ago, under a National Government, pathology was privatised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThis is the kind of direction of travel we\u2019re seeing from this Government. Now, they could have corrected that in this taxation bill by simply making sure they had enough tax revenue to look after the needs of ordinary New Zealanders, but they\u2019ve chosen not to do that. That is why we are seeing in the education system the school lunches debacle\u2014trying to squeeze lunches down to something like $3 a lunch rather than the previous providers under the last Government where there was no problem with the lunches being provided. The Government has shown that it simply cannot afford to provide the services that were provided under the Labour Government and so instead it is moving to what I believe is a privatisation agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EFinally, we look at housing. Every New Zealander deserves to live in a warm, safe, healthy home. What do we have in Dunedin, in the Octagon? We have, at the moment, NGOs trying to get tents for people who are homeless living in the Octagon because of this Government\u2019s cruel and shameful approach to housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, all they had to do was make sure they had enough tax take to be able to afford a baseline for New Zealanders to get the services they need. They had that opportunity in Part 1. They have failed to do it. This is all about choices, and they can say this is a technical bill but they have failed New Zealanders on this bill and that is why Labour very proudly does not support this bill. We will do better in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002231a9aa14fa9c4ce58725cb8323d2343c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000624\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e8166e289104eeb8c5e1d4aab40376b\u0022\u003ERegulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e8166e289104eeb8c5e1d4aab40376b\u0022\u003ERegulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022106c1c2873b84d2bb4adf69bfff39fbc\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00226df335c170494d1abe164927ddb44d8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226df335c170494d1abe164927ddb44d8a\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for Mental Health) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister for Economic Growth: I present legislative statements on the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022296fc086d32b4433aad63697963b28b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022296fc086d32b4433aad63697963b28b0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Those legislative statements are published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6b0f116f8f14cecbf3a56de7e869f75\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pleased to stand here before the House today for the third reading of the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ERegulatory systems amendment bills are a relatively recent phenomenon. The first such bills were passed in 2016, and around a dozen such bills have been passed to date. These bills are the seventh and eighth bills amending legislation administered by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), one of our largest regulatory agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe current bills have been a long time in the making. Many of the amendments were agreed by Cabinet in 2019, and some of the changes came out of policy reviews done a decade ago. It can be a challenge to get priority to make relatively small changes to legislation, but these changes are important if we are to keep our stock of legislation up to date and fit for purpose. In that context, I note that eight regulatory systems amendment bills have been before the House in the current parliamentary term. I want to thank the Education and Workforce Committee and the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee for their thoughtful consideration of these bills, and submitters who suggested a number of improvements to the bills and raised issues for further consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EBy their nature, regulatory systems amendment bills make minor changes that are non-contentious, so some of the important issues raised during consideration of these bills will require further policy work which may come back to the House in future. Between them, the two bills amend 31 Acts and associated regulations administered by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment. In keeping with the broad span of MBIE\u2019s responsibilities, the bills make a wide range of different changes. Some of the amendments will save businesses and other organisations time and money. Many of the amendments will allow MBIE, and other agencies, to operate more efficiently, ensuring greater value for money for the taxpayer. In the case of the change to the Health and Safety at Work levy provision, the ability for ACC to issue a single invoice will directly benefit certain levy payers by an average of $20 per year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EMany of the amendments will make legislation clearer and easier to navigate and more in keeping with the modern world. Several amendments will ensure that MBIE collects and publishes accurate information about people and organisations, and that MBIE is collecting the most relevant and useful information about people and organisations. Amendments to the Telecommunications Act 2001 will facilitate the continued uptake of fibre broadband services. Amendments to the Electricity Act 1992 and the Gas Act 1992 will make it easier to take account of technical standards that can be expected to change frequently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESome amendments strengthen regulation where that is required to ensure that people are not unduly harmed by unscrupulous actors. For example, visa applicants can face significant costs when they are represented by unqualified and/or unscrupulous advisers, so tightening of a regulation here is warranted. In particular, the change is to the tighten up the regulation of immigration advisors. Other amendments to the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007 will allow some people with a good knowledge of the immigration system to become immigration advisers or to administer the regulation of administration immigration advisers more easily, and will make it easier to make a complaint.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESome amendments clarify important legal protections, such as the requirement that an employer hold copies of employment agreements, intended agreements, and terms and conditions of employment, and that these are readily accessible. Other amendments clarify entitlements such as the right to a pre-term baby payment, additional to entitlements to parental leave and payments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EWhile few of these amendments are individually significant or exciting, it is important that regulatory agencies continue to identify such changes, and they are brought to the House for consideration. This will ensure that we give sufficient priority to maintaining and updating New Zealand\u2019s large stock of legislation, which underpins economic activity and is an important contributor to economic growth. I commend the bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd72af8d057c4cbbb63ab5cf05a402ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd72af8d057c4cbbb63ab5cf05a402ec\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022022aaf5c186d4f6d9c7c121fc9219ac9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022022aaf5c186d4f6d9c7c121fc9219ac9\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. We\u2019re coming to the end of this beautiful journey that the House has been on with these two regulatory systems amendment bills\u2014one on economic development and one on immigration and workforce. It\u2019s been great spending time with the minutiae of legislative maintenance, which I think was first recommended by the Productivity Commission in 2014. They ran the ruler over this House\u2019s legislation-making performance and concluded that there was a need, actually, to set aside a bit of time to review and tune up laws so that they could be properly and efficiently implemented. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI wanted to reflect on the consensus that this bill has attracted as it\u2019s gone through the House. It has widespread support, and there was a lot of consensus at select committee. Now, that\u2019s characteristic of bills like this and, in this time, internationally, actually, when we see so much political polarisation in political systems, it\u2019s important to note that there is substantive agreement across the House on quite a bit of the legislation that goes through this Parliament. Often the public don\u2019t see that; they see the areas where conflict is at its sharpest. So, when you consider whole parts of the governmental agenda\u2014I\u2019m thinking security, for one; large parts of foreign policy\u2014there is quite a lot of consensus. In trade policy, I think, there\u2019s a lot of consensus. I think about my own area of responsibility, immigration policy; on the fundamentals of immigration policy, I think there\u2019s a lot of agreement\u2014I wouldn\u2019t say across the whole Parliament; not all the governing parties are on board with those policy fundamentals, but certainly, I think most of the parties in the House\u2014on immigration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EBut I wanted to say that this bill, and the consensus that it has attracted\u2014the support across the House\u2014should not distract people or disguise the really fundamental political and ideological differences on many key issues in the political debate. When you think about it\u2014between the Government and the Opposition; between the Labour Party, the National Party; between the left of politics and the right\u2014there are some very, very stark differences at the moment. If you take, for example, jobs\u2014and there\u2019s a number of provisions in these two bills that we\u2019re looking at here tonight that deal with employment policy and workforce\u2014really, there is quite a big divide, policy divide and political divide, between the different sides of the House. This Government has, through a number of decisions it\u2019s made, driven the country into a deep recession, far deeper than any of our major trading partners, and it\u2019s only just beginning to emerge from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got 5.1 percent unemployment at the moment in our communities. I see it on the streets of my communities in West Auckland and the damage that that level of unemployment does to people, to families. It undermines the wellbeing of our communities. This Government deliberately laid off 5,000 public servants and stopped dozens and dozens of construction and infrastructure projects. Then they wonder why demand collapsed in the economy and suddenly every tradie, every small business, is looking around, going, \u201CWhere\u2019s the work? Can we actually make payroll this week?\u201D For a party like the National Party that loves to talk about economic growth, they\u2019ve done more than any Government in living memory to actually destroy economic growth in the first 18 months that they\u2019ve been in office, and it\u2019s our communities and it\u2019s our people who pay the price for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EHousing is another interesting example\u2014and Megan Woods made some very, very perceptive comments, I thought, about housing. It\u2019s quite interesting: there are some parts of the housing agenda where there is quite a bit of cross-party consensus, around the need to reform the zoning system to allow our cities to grow, to tackle the financing and funding of infrastructure that enables urban growth. But, actually, alongside that, there\u2019s a massive debate and a clashing of the views about, for instance, the importance of public housing. With this Government, one of the most important things they\u2019ve done in housing is take $1.5 billion out of the maintenance and construction budget of K\u0101inga Ora. In West Auckland, where I\u2019m from, they have stopped several hundred houses from being built. There are vacant sections that were slated for new housing developments, and National deliberately decided to stop the construction of those projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAt the same time as that, they have stopped\u2014cut off\u2014the provision of emergency housing, so that, right now, if you do not have a roof over your head, if you have nowhere to sleep tonight, and you turn up at a Government agency like Work and Income and you say, \u201CI am homeless. I do not have shelter. My only option is to sleep outside or in my car.\u201D, you are likely to get turned away or given a lecture and a flea in your ear by Work and Income New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022201ed2e4e0b041639f83ca8b1063c8ba\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: And that relates to the regulatory systems bills?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022276bb5db71c1415c9de9501057a416df\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Madam Speaker, housing is one of the most important parts of our Government\u2019s delivery, and I\u2019m sure there are some aspects of, if not the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill, the other one, that relates to housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022264afd9c064642d3ab94680c9900fbe1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll get back to that, then, shall we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204bebea39e7a44bd80ef5821cf0cd2e6\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I use it as an example of what a huge difference in approach there is between our two Governments, regardless of the fact that, on a bill like this, on the little things, we agree. But, actually, where it really matters, there\u2019s a huge debate, and we are seeing rising levels of homelessness in our communities right now\u2014people who simply don\u2019t have anywhere to go and are sleeping in their cars because of decisions that that Government has made, because they think that actually reducing the waiting list is not something you do by building extra houses and putting a roof over people\u2019s heads; it\u2019s by telling them they\u2019re no longer entitled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI also wanted to say that, in relation to the Charitable Trusts Act, this is very important, because there are many organisations who do much of the front-line work in dealing with homelessness who are charitable trusts, and the kind of governance reforms that you see in the regulatory systems amendment bill in relation to charitable trusts will have a significant effect on these organisations, and we rely on them. I was visiting one of them last week in my electorate, who told me exactly what is going on with the emergency housing that they provide. They are having so many people who are coming directly to them, desperate to get a roof over their heads, and they\u2019re being turned away because of Government policy, because the gatekeeper role that Work and Income New Zealand plays means that they are, essentially, disentitling people to the kind of assistance that, on this side of the House, we think is a fundamental human right. The other really striking example in this area is health\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268ca1e6909eb4fdf9cd313a02daa3542\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Rather than examples, can I ask the member to come back to the bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b5fc395c19a4cbbb9812e634ad4a1d2\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014OK. Let\u2019s talk about the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill provisions in relation to the Employment Relations Act, which is, you know, a useful thing, but we\u2019ve seen so many reforms in the area of employment relations\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228675371d1e2c4276a472f9f602749ba0\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Oh my word!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262f92422ce824f0cb1c099257043d042\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, it\u2019s fine to support this, but, actually, what about the destruction of fair pay agreements, which would have given low-paid workers in New Zealand, at last, the opportunity to bargain to get a decent wage and conditions at work? It\u2019s very important that we remove ambiguity in the current wording of the Employment Relations Act\u2014that\u2019s a worthy thing\u2014but, actually, at the same time, we saw members on that side of the House, only days ago, voting against a bill that criminalised theft by employers against their employees. And there are so many other examples in the employment relations area where people on the side of the House we\u2019re looking at over there are so out of touch with what New Zealanders want and need. Regardless, we do support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022324886e8700d4aecae2c0155a021cc5a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired. It was a great general debate speech\u2014thank you, member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00228538661b697940e5b68eb0dd69c65c4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228538661b697940e5b68eb0dd69c65c4c\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. So, yeah, this is the third and last call on behalf of the Greens\u2014well, 10-minute call on behalf of the Greens; we\u2019ve got a five-minute call coming up\u2014on the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill that we\u2019re looking at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThere is a reason why this has been relatively collegial and consensus-building. It is because the amendments here are relatively non-controversial. I do want to reflect before I go into the detail of the bill that there is a reason why we can\u2019t agree on some of the fundamentals, like, for example, whether housing should be a human right, whether people should have level incomes, and that is because there are ideological divides in this House that prevent us from doing so. But at least we can come together for the maintenance of our legislation that we have in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re looking at here were updates to a piece of legislation including the Electricity Act 1992, the Employment Relations Act 2000, the Gas Act 1992, the Health and Safety at Work Act 2015, the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007, the Mines and Rescue Act 2013, and the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Act 1987.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EDuring the select committee stage\u2014if I reflect back to that\u2014we didn\u2019t get a massive amount of submissions. But I think we particularly got submissions that we engaged\u2014in these changes to the amendments to Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007. Before I go into reflecting on those, I wanted particularly to commend a former member of the committee\u2014Camilla Belich\u2014who while I was quite focused on the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007, she was very focused on issues relating to the Employment Relations Act 2000, and the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Act 1987.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI think, as I said in the second reading, what bills like this can help do as well is to bring a collective subject area expertise into bills, because, at the end of the day, as legislators, we have limited reach and knowledge. That\u2019s just the reality of the human experience. But, actually, by working as a group you can actually put your heads together and focus individually on bits of this Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill that we each have a connection to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWhen it came to the amendments to the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007, the bill itself looked at issues like whether we should have a 12-month stand-down period preventing former Immigration New Zealand officers from being licensed as immigration advisers in the two-year stand-down period\u2014preventing them from being employed by the Immigration Advisers Authority. I wanted to touch on that because that was the subject of debate by submitters. I think there were some good debates being brought to us around the fact that the reality is that Immigration New Zealand officials\u2014well, former immigration staffers\u2014do hold knowledge around the internal processes of Immigration New Zealand that, say, an immigration adviser wouldn\u2019t have, had they not worked in that space previously. It is acknowledged that gives them a competitive advantage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut at the end of the day, there\u2019s also the reality that when it comes to immigration advisers, their role, ultimately, is to help navigate people through quite complex immigration processes. In some ways, one could argue that, well, yes, people could have a competitive advantage if they came straight off working at Immigration New Zealand and then working as an immigration adviser, that that competitive advantage ultimately results in better outcomes for the people that they are meant to serve. So, for that reason, I think that was a quite a sensible change that was made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThere were also other issues that were being brought by submitters who hoped that we could also aspire to take a deeper look at the issue of offshore immigration advisers. This is an area that continues to be massively unregulated. As somebody who works with a lot of constituents who have been on the receiving end of really poor advice by immigration advisers onshore and offshore, what I can say is that submitters did want us to have a much deeper look at the reality that that area continues to be massively unregulated. The end result for everyday people who are receiving offshore advice is that they may end up paying a huge amount of money only to then realise that, actually, they were not supported to get the right visa, or they were promised, for example, false jobs that didn\u2019t exist, and that has a real impact on people\u2019s livelihoods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EMy message on the third reading to the Government in relation to this part of the bill is that the Government does look\u2014because even though, at the end of the day, it ended up considered to be outside of the scope of the bill, those contributions at the select committee stage, my message is that we do look and the Government looks at regulating offshore advisers to the benefit of our communities. Ultimately, it also benefits local communities too, because no one wins when we have people who are entering our country in debt or in hardship or with a wrong visa due to those professions overseas not being adequately regulated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThere are also other issues that were considered around that part of the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act, such as clarifying that persons are prohibited from applying for a licence to be an adviser for the duration of an order preventing the person from reapplying for a licence made by the Immigration Advisers Complaints \u0026amp; Disciplinary Tribunal, and other issues such as expanding the person subject to restriction of being licensed to include a person convicted of an offence under the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act. This is important because, as I\u2019ve mentioned earlier, we do have incidents where immigration advisers have not acted in good faith, or have acted negligently and, again, turned people\u2019s lives upside down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI worked with a Brazilian couple, for example, whose case ended up being in the media as we were trying to do a ministerial intervention. They were some of the people who had been done by an immigration adviser who acted negligently. I think to me, tightening the screws of ensuring that the people who are in that profession actually are held to really high standards is really, really important because the advice that they give can be life changing, and in some cases, if not given correctly, can be life ruining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThen there are other issues in that area around clarifying that employees of a lawyer or law firm are exempt from the requirements to be licensed. The way I would see that is in relation to recognising that expertise; extending the circumstances in which the registerer must cancel the licence where an adviser is no longer fit to be licensed according to section 16 and 17 of the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act; as well as modifying interim court orders which allow advisers to continue to provide immigration advice to act as a stay on the relevant order or decision being appealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThere are other issues that have been brought forward which have to do more with the Immigration \u0026amp; Protection Tribunal. Those are really important as well because at the end\u2014pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227652c7eada3c45e3ba5203908c5bbe12\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t have to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7a9a716656949ec8702d1762307ef53\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s OK. At least I\u2019ll take a much more substantive contribution than I\u2019m sure members on the other side will make on this. But at the end of the day, what we\u2019ve got is tightening the screws on the processes that are available for people and for advisers to ensure that the profession is acting really, really well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI do want to briefly comment on the other components of the bill\u2014I think of other members of the Education and Workforce Committee who focus on areas in relation to the Parental Leave and Employment Protection Act. Obviously, as the committee report talks about, it creates amendments to clarify and update statutory provisions to give effect to the purpose of the Act and keep the regulatory systems up to date and relevant. That also sparked a conversation around what else it is that we need to do in relation to making parental leave equitable. I acknowledge that some of those contributions by submitters not just in the immigration space could have been deemed as being out of scope. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut I actually think the contributions that we receive from members of the public when we have a bill that looks at such broad pieces of legislation should, I think, still be taken into account by Government when they look at what other reforms they need to do. I think, to me, just using language like \u201Cnon-controversial\u201D and \u201Cto modernise pieces of legislation\u201D misses an opportunity to actually capture important feedback from members of the public and legal experts on what else the Government needs to put on their agenda. So I really hope that the Minister in charge of this bill\u2014the Minister for Economic Growth\u2014and other Ministers that would be overseeing the other relevant bills affected by this take the feedback from the submitters and put that in the legislative work programme where it is suitable so that we cannot just do these kind of non-controversial amendments but genuinely improve legislation to serve the needs of our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u00227e252e07612e4114842865c34e892181\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e252e07612e4114842865c34e892181\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of ACT to support these two bills which are being debated together: the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EAs we know, these two bills are omnibus bills, and it was through the agreement of the Business Committee that we decided to debate both these bills together. These bills make small fixes, but these fixes are important fixes. As time goes on, as technology advances, as we change our ways of doing things, there are many, many provisions, on an ongoing basis, in legislation that we have to change, and that is what these two omnibus bills do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EListening to the previous speaker, Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, one would think that these bills are just about immigration, but, actually, these two bills amend 31 Acts between them, and all these Acts are actually administered by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment. We know that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment has a huge portfolio and they implement close to 150 pieces of legislation. So 31 Acts; we are talking about close to one-fifth of the 150 pieces of legislation that we are improving, because, with time, we know that some regulations or some provisions may become irrelevant, so they need to be removed. There might be some provisions that need updating\u2014that needs to be done. We want to make sure that legislation is clear and that people\u2014those who are interpreting it, those who are implementing it\u2014have good understanding, and because the provisions are clear, we are not causing any unnecessary cost to businesses or regulators. So those kind of things need to be kept in mind, and these kind of changes need to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EIn my second reading speech, I talked about the changes that we made in the select committee and the feedback and the submissions that we received from submitters, so I won\u2019t repeat that. One thing that is really good is that I am on both committees that considered these two bills. I chair the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, which considered the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill, and I\u2019m\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c295ccc09b5940fd9eca4acfaf0db242\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: A hard-working committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9494b486dbd43b1a1afcefe5b9d960e\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very hard-working committee, thank you, Dan Bidois. I\u2019m a member of the Education and Workforce Committee, which considered the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EAs I mentioned before, these two bills are not just about immigration. If we just look at the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill, it amends 24 Acts, and these Acts are across five portfolios: commerce and consumer affairs; science, innovation and technology; media and communications; justice; and energy. The Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill amends seven Acts across three portfolios: immigration, workplace relations and safety, and energy. We want to see that these changes are implemented as soon as possible, so I won\u2019t take too much of the House\u2019s time. The ACT Party supports these bills. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u0022df2c757d225944f0a9b5f3d8080824c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df2c757d225944f0a9b5f3d8080824c2\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I stand on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill. I was on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee with Parmjeet Parmar, and it was a very efficient select committee. One thing I would like to also do is thank all of the staff, actually, who assisted us in understanding a lot of the technical changes in these bills. Now, they are small changes, across these two bills. However, collectively it does make very important, big change. It creates more clarity, cuts red tape, and streamlines processes that are identified over time. There isn\u2019t much more to add. I would just simply like to commend the bill, on behalf of New Zealand First\u2014both bills. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u00229c212a7ac1b54347a00cc5daddf571ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c212a7ac1b54347a00cc5daddf571ad\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te Pika, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou, e te Whare. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i te p\u014D nei. Ka reo M\u0101ori katoa t\u014Dku nei k\u014Drero, i t\u014Dku nei kauhau hoki. Koinei t\u014Dku w\u0101 tuatoru kua k\u014Drerotia ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire. H\u0101koa te moroiti o t\u0113nei pire, kua panoni i \u0113tahi w\u0101hanga i roto i t\u0113nei k\u0101wana, waihoki i ng\u0101 pire tae atu ki ng\u0101 rautau tahi mano iwa rau. N\u014D reira e tautoko ana m\u0101tou Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i t\u0113nei pire. Ko \u0113tehi o ng\u0101 pire ka whai i roto i te ohu pakihi, waihoki i roto i te MBIE i raro i te w\u0101hanga tekau m\u0101 rua o te Public Service Act 2020. He moroiti t\u0113nei pire ki a au nei. T\u0113tehi o ng\u0101 w\u0101hanga e kaha taunaki i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire, ng\u0113nei pire e rua, aroha mai, ko t\u0101 m\u0101tou pakihi M\u0101ori i roto i te ahumahi t\u0101poi. Waihoki, ko t\u0101 r\u0101tou mahi ka whai p\u0113hitanga pai ki roto i te tai\u014Dhanga i roto i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101, ar\u0101 koir\u0101 te kupu m\u014D te economy. N\u014D reira ko \u0101 m\u0101tou pakihi M\u0101ori e kaha tutuki ana i ng\u0101 wawata o te w\u0101, h\u0101koa ng\u0101 \u0101wangawanga o te \u014Dhanga o t\u0113nei r\u0101 tonu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EN\u0101 reira e mihi ana ki ng\u0101 pakihi, e mihi ana ki te ohu o MBIE, e mihi ana ki te Minita, a Matt Doocey, e k\u014Drero ana ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire. E tautoko ana t\u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101ti. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Greetings to the Speaker, and to everyone in the House. I stand to voice the sentiments of the M\u0101ori Party tonight. I will speak te reo M\u0101ori only at this time. This is the third time I have spoken about this bill. Although it is only a minor bill, it impacts this Government and other bills from the 1900s. Therefore, the M\u0101ori Party supports this bill. Some bills relate to the business sector, that is the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), under Section 12 of the Public Service Act 2020. This is only a minor bill, in my opinion. One group that fully supports these two bills are our M\u0101ori businesses in tourism. Furthermore, their task is to apply good pressure in the economy. Therefore, our M\u0101ori businesses are fully meeting the aspirations of the time, in spite of the economic worries of today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ETherefore, I thank the businesses, the people at MBIE, and I thank the Minister Matt Doocey, who speaks for this bill. Our party is in support. Thank you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00220ed7fdfd1c7a4795b496713bce5afacc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ed7fdfd1c7a4795b496713bce5afacc\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand, as well, in support of these two bills: the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill. Now, first of all, I want to say that although during the committee stage there weren\u2019t a lot of things that we felt needed to be discussed in depth\u2014because, again, both of these two are really technical bills that provide quality of life within our legislative system\u2014I was very heartened by one particular Minister\u2019s response, saying that clearly us Opposition are not working hard enough by examining bills in detail during the committee stage. So I will be taking that advice to heart in every bill that we are seeing under urgency this week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut to begin with, in terms of the immigration and workforce bill\u2014and I kind of want to talk to both of them in turn. I think one of the areas\u2014there are a lot of quality of life improvements, like I mentioned. It amends seven Acts and it went through the Education and Workforce Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut one of the things that I really, really want to focus on, and I mentioned this during the committee stage as well, is the changes to the Immigration Advisers Licensing Act 2007. One of the things I pointed out specifically which I think should be in the scope of this bill is the inclusion of offshore advisers for student visa or other forms of temporary visa as part of the requirement to be registered with IAA\u2014or the Immigration Advisers Authority. The reason for this is that as we\u2019re seeing that post-pandemic and our borders opening, and me coming from a background of having worked in international education and having worked with educational agents, I know for a fact that when it comes to international students\u2014who are incredibly vulnerable when they are applying to an overseas institution\u2014the most exploitation that we do see of international students is with predominantly offshore educational agents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, Australia has had a system in place for a long time now whereby immigration advisers offshore must also be registered and there must also be a compliance process for these immigration advisers that\u2019s up to the standard, as required by the Australian regulatory system and legislation. We are not seeing the same thing here. With the concern that we want to see more international students as part of, I guess, our immigration reset or etc., we are also going to be, as a result, seeing more exploitation of international students because we have not offered that particular protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThat is also really concerning and really problematic: when a student arrives onshore and they realise that their agent didn\u2019t apply them to the right course or has given them misinformation, or the private training establishment that they are part of also didn\u2019t give them the qualification or has other nefarious reputations or ulterior motives. It is really, really, really hard for us as a country to say, \u201CWell, sorry, you\u2019ve been scammed. There\u2019s nothing we can do about it.\u201D when, in fact, through the changes that we can see in such a regulatory systems bill, we could actually make those changes to give those kinds of reassurances but also accountability and quality assurance to offshore educational agents. So that\u2019s the big part that I want to mention in terms of the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut in terms of the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill, like one of the previous speakers mentioned, this bill does amend 24 Acts. It is something that is quite comprehensive and it covers a lot of different portfolios as well. Again, these are things that are incredibly necessary within our regulatory systems to be able to upgrade all of them to ensure consistency. But it\u2019s interesting that this is sort of the bill that gets introduced in the House with reasonable frequency, but people kind of talk about it from the perspective of, like, \u201COh, look, we need to cut red tape. We need to cut green tape. We need to cut all of the tapes.\u201D But, at the same time, you can say all of that that you want, but these sorts of bills and the quality of life it provides are still really important. But if other people are politicking, I also think that it\u2019s really, really important that we do have those sorts of regulations in place that are robust, that can give the people of Aotearoa the reassurance that they need in anything that we do in our day-to-day lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo, yes, as a matter of fact, in that case, regulations are incredibly important; regulatory systems are incredibly important. It\u2019s something that we should be looking at where we just sort of hack and slash in that particular system, because the bottom line is they are important to our society. With that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd7cc3e714f545f6acf980438406cda8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd7cc3e714f545f6acf980438406cda8\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise in support of the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and associated bills. These are sensible pieces of legislation that tidy up a lot of small changes, in many cases, to many different bills. I was on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee as we considered this legislation. There were many useful and interesting parts to it, and the advice that we had was excellent, so I thank very much the staff that were able to advise us, as well as the submitters on these bills. I commend these bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d069ffc10399446483efef2447d74af9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d069ffc10399446483efef2447d74af9\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Once again, one of these types of bills deserves the kind of scrutiny that these particular bills and the previous bill, the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2024-25, Emergency Response, and Remedial Measures) Bill, have had, not just in the House but through the select committee. I\u2019m encouraged, as I read the legislative statements and a number of the comments from across the House, how well the committee worked together. You can see that in the legislative statements to the House this evening in its third reading, where recommended changes by the committee were considered and actually put in place and implemented. That doesn\u2019t always happen that way, sadly, in our democracy, but we certainly try our best. I think that\u2019s been fleshed out quite well on a number of matters because these are technical, these two particular bills\u2014and I\u2019m going to address each one separately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIt is important, though, that we don\u2019t lose sight of that detail, and I want to start, first and foremost, by speaking to the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill. We\u2019re the Labour Party and there are some assertions on the other side of the House that they\u2019re the party for the worker. Well, we laugh in the face of claims like that and can say that the Labour Party quite proudly stand by our record in supporting workers and workplace safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow, this particular bill does make a number of changes in and around workplace safety that must be scrutinised to make sure that when people leave their house and kiss their wh\u0101nau goodbye or get on with their day to go to work, that they come home safely. There are a number of things in this particular bill that will look to make some minor adjustments around the way that instruments can be used to measure certain aspects through the workplaces that are defined here\u2014namely the electricity suppliers but also gas suppliers and others. It\u2019s important to make sure that we scrutinise those correctly in order to make sure families who have loved ones go to work, come home in the evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOut of curiosity, over summer I read a book around the history of the goldmining boom in New Zealand\u2014predominantly in the South Island, of course, but other places around New Zealand. One of the points that the historians made about the boom of the goldmining industry in New Zealand was part of it was replicated on some of what was done in Australia. One of those is what they call \u201Ctourism mines\u201D\u2014\u201Ctourism mines\u201D. The reason they did that was sometimes to save costs: you bring tourists in, allow them to think that they\u2019re out there and they\u2019re prospecting for the opportunity to, as a tourist, discover gold or get their small nugget or their flakes of gold, and then be pleased with their outing. What that did for those who owned the permits\u2014owned the titles for particular areas of the river and other places where they were mining for gold\u2014was they would use that to then scale up their opportunity, in turn, from the tourism mining operation into a full-blown commercial mining operation. It was quite a tried and true method.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhy I reference that is there are the amendments in Part 4 in the Health and Safety at Work Act in this particular bill that specifically reference this, then clarifies the difference between a \u201Ctourism mine\u201D and a fully commercial mine. We\u2019re going to keep an eye on this because we know that mining is on a strong part of the agenda of this particular Government, and so we want to make sure that as we look towards safety and making sure that the very precious tourism industry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5128b80a63c4ce59033a58c15f1bc15\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: Where was the Labour Party founded?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfd9d2ec31a045a3ae1efd19916d92ee\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that we have in the country, as well as the priorities that this Government have already been quite clear on with mining\u2014the lines aren\u2019t blurred. I think that\u2019s really important because we know and we\u2019ve seen it in the past and the historians have said this, that it was very lucrative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI hear \u201CWhere did the Labour Party start?\u201D Of course, it was in Blackball and it was because of mining. So it\u2019s only our duty to our heritage and our whakapapa that we continue to look at these matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAnother particular one that I know the Labour Party\u2014and other parties in Parliament\u2014have worked hard on is the immigration licensing matter. All of us, as members of Parliament, have been approached by certain sectors in our community who continue to speak of their unfair treatment. Some have spoken of how they\u2019ve put their trust into a particular person to manage their immigration applications and visa applications\u2014and, in fact, paid their entire life savings to get those things done for either themselves or their family\u2014and have only been ripped off. That\u2019s certainly something that members in particular this evening have already made comment on, and they\u2019re important as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI come now to economic development, so the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill. Having read through this particular bill, I can say that there are a number of things that were started under our final term in Government, and I\u2019m really glad to see that some of them have been carried into this sort of omnibus bill, if you will. Some of them are quite sensible, but some of them will continue to leave a question on the table and certainly on the conversation tables in our community. Those are around the changes to the charitables Act and the Incorporated Societies Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, you\u2019ve been involved in matters like this in your community, but also in your experience in the House, here, where there have been attempts to make fundamental changes to the Charities Act and the Incorporated Societies Act. For whatever reason, some of those organisations will continue to ask the question, \u201CWell, why weren\u2019t those fundamental changes made?\u201D I do think that is a question that will have to be answered at some point in time. But in this particular bill, they do make some sensible adjustments and some minor incremental steps, if you will, towards what could be a possible answer to those questions about incorporated societies and the Charities Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAnother part in here which I found quite interesting was one of the very simple\u2014well, seemingly simple\u2014in Part 13, where it speaks to the amendments to the Heavy Engineering Research Levy Act, a rather old Act which is 1978. I can hand on heart say it was before I was born, but it is important. The reason I say this is because one of the things it does there\u2014it says removes gender-specific pronouns. Gender-specific pronouns are very hot topic\u2014a very hot topic\u2014at this particular point in time. I\u2019m wondering if this Government\u2019s signalling to the House and indeed the New Zealand public whether or not they\u2019ll be taking a ruler, line by line, across Acts old and new and recent about looking towards, \u201CWell, what does this mean?\u201D Because we\u2019ve had some strong rhetoric from the Government; we\u2019ve heard terms such as \u201Cwoke\u201D and \u201Cdiversity, equity, and inclusion\u201D and all these other things, but it seems pretty sensible here. But what does this signal to the community? That\u2019s one of the points I want to make here for the House this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAnother one, as I looked across this and coming back to the incorporated societies, there was a recent omnibus bill that Minister Potaka had brought to the House that made some changes around the charities and the incorporated societies and how it related to, in particular, lands that were held under te ture whenua M\u0101ori. Now, our colleague Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke, in her very good contribution this evening, made reference to the way M\u0101ori business operates and what does this mean with respect to the way post-settlement governance entities (PSGEs) have established themselves because not all of the land or asset base that they\u2014in fact, very little of the asset base\u2014control is governed by te ture whenua M\u0101ori. So it requires and behoves the House to look at these particular matters with keen interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe say that also as it signals the intent of this House when we think of upcoming matters such as the Resource Management Act that will continue to cross across boundaries, if you will, on PSGEs and matters of incorporated societies and charitable trusts. So we\u2019re keen to continue to look towards those particular changes and make sure that we can give it the due consideration that is required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOnce again, in this particular bill, there was clear goodwill and hard work in the committee to make sure that some reasonable and sensible select committee recommendations were taken on board, and I want to acknowledge the Education and Workforce Committee for doing that. Some of them, once again, easy tidy-ups; others of them will make incremental steps which will ultimately have to be answered in a more fulsome way and fulsome question by either this Government or future Governments as they arise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe do support these bills in their third reading and we look forward to continually working in that collegial way that we\u2019ve seen across these two bills that I\u2019ve mentioned this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0b764cd872a475fb350d218dac17d08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0b764cd872a475fb350d218dac17d08\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Excellent, thank you, Madam Speaker. It is a great honour that I rise to speak in this third reading of the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill. A lot of these two bills has been traversed already this evening. Of course, we have a whole range of legislation here in New Zealand, and often some of these pieces of legislation need to be brought up to date. These bills make changes to 31 different Acts, including the oldest, from 1908, and I think the latest one is from 2002. They\u2019re all really sensible changes, therefore I\u2019m happy to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u0022c13425d5e06c45c5ab7ba6173fa16759\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c13425d5e06c45c5ab7ba6173fa16759\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa i t\u0113nei p\u014D. E t\u016B ana awau m\u014D te P\u0101ti Reipa ki te whakaae i t\u0113nei pire, ar\u0101 [Greetings to the Speaker of the House, and to everyone here tonight. I stand on behalf of the Labour Party tonight in support of this bill], the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill, Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill\u2014geez, Madam Speaker, you\u2019re probably going to ring the bell already after just reading that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHoi an\u014D r\u0101 e te wh\u0101nau, I am here on behalf of Labour to support this bill. As you all know, I am the proud MP for Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti, and several times I\u2019ve stood up to acknowledge that Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti is the food bowl of Aotearoa and therefore heavily productive and heavily dependent on having a really good workforce. This legislation is quite broad, but amongst other areas, obviously one thing that stands out for me is migrant workers. As a member of the Primary Production Committee\u2014which I leave, very sadly, hoi an\u014D, to move on to other equally exciting committees and portfolios\u2014I heard throughout the rohe from various industries, including the wool industry, about the value of migrant workers and ensuring that we create positive work environments for them. So my contribution is not just about supporting industry but, of course, supporting our kaimahi we bring to Aotearoa and ensuring that they have good experiences in return for the quality mahi they do, that naturally contributes to our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ESadly, my colleague the Hon Peeni Henare alluded to some of the negative experiences some of our kaimahi have had, and as tangata whenua I think it is incumbent upon us to ensure that when they come here to work for our country, we provide excellent manaaki for them\u2014furthermore, not just for the worker but for their communities and the wh\u0101nau that they bring with them. That has been an issue experienced in Tair\u0101whiti, sadly, and throughout Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti and, of course, throughout Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EOne of the other positive aspects of this bill is perhaps the clarity it will provide for employers and agents who bring, effectively, these manuhiri who come to make Aotearoa their home and contribute to our economy. I\u2019m not up here just scathingly talking about employers and agents. Perhaps some of them purely need clarity, and the amendments in this bill can provide that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EFurthermore, talking about economic growth, however, I think we have to think about the fact that I\u2019ve said in this House before: growth starts at the roots. We are the roots of this country, and we need to think about how we develop our own workforces and our own communities\u2019 capacity and skills throughout Aotearoa. So that\u2019s why I want to bring up, once again, progressive procurement and how disappointing it is that the opportunity, I think, has been lost. We see firsthand the direct impact that progressive procurement made on the expansion of the M\u0101ori economy, and I think if one of the focuses here is on economic growth, that\u2019s an opportunity lost and something that I think we should all reconsider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHoi an\u014D r\u0101, I am very happy to commend this legislation for the protections, supports, and positive impacts it will have on the economic development and growth of Aotearoa. So, on behalf of Te P\u0101ti Reipa, t\u0113nei an\u014D te mihi atu ki a koutou. E t\u016B ana awau ki te tautoko i t\u0113nei pire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[So, on behalf of the Labour Party, I thank you all. I stand here in support of this bill.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u0022078b51f615b04c92bfe38bfc1603f95a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022078b51f615b04c92bfe38bfc1603f95a\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and speak on the Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill. I see harmony has broken out across the House and everybody is in agreement that these are very good changes. So, with that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3bca4cedfec44d8b9119f30753fcc9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3bca4cedfec44d8b9119f30753fcc9f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: David, oh\u2014Reuben Davidson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u00224a4bcceffe2a45e1b1e3073afb1d9f76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a4bcceffe2a45e1b1e3073afb1d9f76\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022257721005570447a91e1cdaedf6147c6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Early in the evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d13a34d9865047cd8e9c67683155d897\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s my pleasure to stand up and take a call\u2014lucky it\u2019s a 10-minute call\u2014on the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill. I am rising to speak in support of these bills. I did want to acknowledge the very sage words of one of my parliamentary colleagues, who called this a beautiful journey, earlier this evening, in his opening address to this bill. Part of that beautiful journey is because there is consensus in the House, and there was at our Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. But that consensus and that shared support isn\u2019t always black and white. One of the issues with this bill and with the issues that this bill addresses is that the very people it serves are seeking, from bills like this, certainty. The risk, when these bills contradict what\u2019s been promised or leave open opportunities for uncertainty\u2014then that puts some members of our community and some people at a disadvantage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESo I want to come back, as one of the final speakers, to the summary of what this bill is. It is an omnibus bill that contains amendments to legislation administered by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment. The four points are: reducing unnecessary compliance burdens for businesses and implementation costs for regulatory agencies; clarifying and updating statutory provisions to give effect to the purposes of the principal Acts and their provisions; addressing regulatory duplication, gaps, errors, and inconsistencies within and between different pieces of legislation; and responding to the changing environment\u2014for example, by ensuring that legislation responds to changing technology or is technology-neutral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s really good, that that\u2019s the aim: to provide what I\u2019ve spoken of earlier\u2014certainty\u2014but it\u2019s not necessarily the reality. That lack of certainty\u2014and other members have spoken of this, too\u2014is often what we see in our electorate offices around Aotearoa when people come to us with sometimes complex and sometimes what should be quite straightforward and quite simple immigration cases. Because of shifts and changes and because of contradictions, some of those very simple immigration cases can become very confusing, and, more importantly, they can become deeply painful for the people going through those processes. Every week, I have examples of that\u2014obviously, I\u2019m not going to go into people\u2019s personal details about the complexities of the cases that come\u2014but also about some of the promises that were made prior to the last election around some of the types of support for immigration and immigration visas that have not been kept in this term of Government. I think that the very human conversations you have with the people, on a weekly basis in our electorate offices\u2014who are deeply and painfully affected by promises of action and, after the election, complete inaction in that space\u2014are very, very sad to see. That, ultimately, comes down to the choices of what this Government is choosing to prioritise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI want to read a passage from an article that was published on RNZ\u2019s website\u2014Radio New Zealand\u2019s website\u2014earlier in February, about thousands of overseas parents whose children have immigrated here who are waiting for news on applying for residence, and others are hoping for quick news on a long-term visitor visa to stay with their families: \u201CMore than 10,000 migrant families have submitted applications\u2014on behalf of one or two parents\u2014which are in a random ballot to be selected every three months. If they win a spot in the random ballot, they can apply for residence to settle here.\u201D Now, the really tragic part of this is that the reporter goes on to detail that there are families who have been spoken to by RNZ who\u2019ve had parents die while they\u2019re waiting or become so frail that they cannot travel or they no longer qualify for that visa, on health grounds. I think that\u2019s deeply disappointing, to see that the opportunity here in this bill was to go further and to move away from some of that grey uncertainty, and provide real clarity for those people and make good on promises that were made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, another thing that I wanted to talk about here\u2014and this is about immigration in the opposite direction\u2014is about some of the other choices that this Government has made in this term around things like housing and around cuts to health and not being able to provide the basic services that all New Zealanders deserve. In one of my communities, deep cuts to the school lunch programme, which sees terrible, terrible meals being delivered to schools, if they even turn up in this community\u2014we sat down to have a conversation around the table with one of those children in one of those schools. We talked to several children, and we asked them what they wanted to do when they left school. One of those children\u2019s answers was to move to Australia. That is the aspiration. That is what happens when you don\u2019t look after people and when you don\u2019t provide the kind of support and services that all New Zealanders deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, I want to get back to the point of certainty, which is what I think this legislation should be providing and what we\u2019re not seeing\u2014what the grey creates and what should be simply black and white. I want to reflect on what happened last week, which was that our Prime Minister took a trip to India. That was quite the contrast to the lack of certainty we see here. There were banquets, there was cricket, there was a handshake, there were promises of real-time free-trade agreements and direct flights. I have to say, I haven\u2019t seen our Prime Minister looking so happy for quite a long time. One of the reasons that I thought\u2014because on reflection, I thought, why is our Prime Minister all of a sudden looking so happy? I realised this is probably the furthest away he\u2019s been from those unhappy voters who backed him in the election and now have buyer\u2019s remorse. All of a sudden, he was having a holiday and he was getting some time away from those people, but no sooner had he returned, still\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aafdf3b597c54f168af00e07849bb686\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just like you\u2019re going to return to the bill very shortly, aren\u2019t you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287b55437c0ce4d8791885441aa55941a\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Thank you for your consideration. I\u2019m coming back to the point of immigration here, because that was one of the key pillars of the regulatory systems immigration\u2014I\u2019ll read the full title, just to make sure for members on the other side of the House it\u2019s not lost on them\u2014the Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill. One of the key things that it deals with is immigration. That was one of the main topics of conversation, with regard to the free-trade agreement being discussed on the Prime Minister\u2019s happy holiday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENo sooner than the Prime Minister returned to New Zealand: \u201CNew Zealand First\u2019s Winston Peters,\u201D it says here, \u201Csees no need for a relaxation of New Zealand\u2019s immigration settings in any trade talks with India.\u201D If anyone wonders who this Mr Winston Peters is, he\u2019s the man who claims he made Luxon Prime Minister. Yes, that man. On Morning Report, on the Monday after the Prime Minister returned from his free-trade agreement negotiations, Winston Peters said India \u201Chad the biggest population in the world now\u20141.4 billion people. Do you really think Immigration New Zealand is going to help? Get serious for goodness sake.\u201D So the man who claims to have made the Prime Minister the Prime Minister doesn\u2019t support the very thing that that man needs to have in place to be able to get his deal over the line. That\u2019s why a bill like this needs to give people the certainty that in grey times, in changing times, there\u2019s some black-and-white structure in place to give them the certainty they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00229d92509a907c474ab42fed83c2671260\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d92509a907c474ab42fed83c2671260\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E That was a long 10 minutes\u2014for a bill that is unanimous in the House. On this side of the House, we are really keen to drive productivity and growth and efficiency. With that, I commend these bills to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EBills read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc1f64d078d64ccf80ce5ceee892b099\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6ee5f28efdc4756bb4b2f113dcf81d2\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00225c699d12d7a34acb975fe3a764dce781\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c699d12d7a34acb975fe3a764dce781\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Land Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d754f970e68439e8eb4f9593763b7ce\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f57774bde7b04803afa14a9810439778\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Land Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very pleased to present this bill to the House for its third reading. This is Parliament\u2019s third attempt in about three or four years at introducing oral fluid testing for drugs at the roadside. Hopefully, it is third time lucky, because I for one do not want to be back here in 2026 or 2027 or 2028, legislating again to bring New Zealand into line with many other jurisdictions that see drugs out there in the community and want to make sure that people who get behind the wheel are not on drugs, because we know that they\u2019re a major factor in many road deaths and serious injuries. We had a go back in 2022, but the approval criteria was incompatible with commercially available devices. We\u2019re now making sure that police are equipped with roadside oral fluid screening as a road safety tool to enable the enforcement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe way I think about it is it\u2019s a little bit like breath testing for alcohol. They\u2019ll be able to stop any driver of a motor vehicle to administer an oral fluid screening test\u2014a key part of deterring drug-driving, making sure that people can be tested anytime and anywhere. A driver who tests positive on the first screening test will be required to undergo a second screening test and to provide an oral fluid sample for laboratory testing. Two positive screening tests triggers a mandatory 12-hour stand down from driving to address any immediate road safety risk. An infringement notice is only issued following a positive laboratory test. The Minister of Police will set out in notices what qualifying drugs, or families of drugs, will be tested for at the roadside and in the laboratory. The requirement for two positive screening tests before a person is stood down and a positive laboratory test before an infringement offence is committed are measures to address concerns about the accuracy of the devices. These devices have been used in Australia for many years. Two tests have 98 percent accuracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThere were changes in the committee of the whole House stage, resulting in changes to the way oral fluid samples will be able to be collected for future independent analysis. This allows drivers the option to challenge the infringement notice issued following a positive laboratory test by paying a private analyst to test their oral fluid sample.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s moving quickly on this bill. We expect Police to be ready to implement the bill by the end of this year, once it becomes an Act. Before it is rolled out, they will have to procure and approve the devices and the laboratory services, and they\u2019ll have to train police officers and develop regulations to support the regime. But it is a good step forward. I think many people will welcome it. As I said at the start of my brief remarks, drugs are a contributor to many deaths and serious injuries on the road, alongside alcohol. Now, of course, we will soon have a method of testing for drugs on the road. And I think we will look back in five to 10 years and we will say, \u201CWhat was the fuss about? How crazy was it that you could be high on weed or coke or meth\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022210e611c56dd4faf94cd78343d91f889\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: MDMA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8593ea43ac64db7abb74e601b5e6d8f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, \u201CMDMA\u201D, says Tom Rutherford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022723ff5a5a81540289e2ddf2cf68c9917\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Butterick told me!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fcbbe96926f41e6ac10c07e2f7a9ac0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh my! Tom says Mike Butterick told him. I\u2019ll just be a bit careful about what I say here, particularly in relation to Tom Rutherford, the youngest member of the National Party caucus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt doesn\u2019t actually matter\u2014the point is drugs can impair your driving, and the idea that you could be high and drive is nuts. Up until this law comes into effect and is implemented, there is, essentially, nothing to stop you doing that\u2014certainly not in the law, or certainly not any ability to check that. It\u2019s a good bill. We\u2019ve worked pretty hard on it, and I\u2019m looking forward to seeing its passage through the House today. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4f0bf7d04f145d3ac148d1646e449e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4f0bf7d04f145d3ac148d1646e449e9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022800306c8d71445319496b3ac7d5b2014\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022800306c8d71445319496b3ac7d5b2014\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure this evening to take a call as the Opposition\u2019s transport spokesperson on the Land Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill. This is a piece of legislation that Labour supported at first reading; was very constructive, I believe, through the select committee process; and supported at second reading. We did have some issues that weren\u2019t resolved at the committee stage, but, despite that, we come to third reading and as a party we will be supporting this bill this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting, just listening to the Minister outline the Government\u2019s belief that this will prioritise road safety. It\u2019s interesting because, at the same time, of course, this is a Government that is not responding to the needs of communities when it comes to road safety, in relation to lower speed limits in communities where they have called specifically for that. So it is interesting to hear that from the Minister. But I do hope that the rationale, which is one based on road safety, is one that is one to be enjoyed by the House this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhen we step back and have a look at the impact of drugs in the systems of drivers of motor vehicles in New Zealand, it\u2019s very clear that the data and the statistics indicate that a significant proportion of serious injuries\u2014and, need I say, fatalities\u2014are easily attributable to that particular criteria as well. That\u2019s why, when Labour was in Government, we sought to introduce roadside testing. We had a very clear view that procurement should not be what drives this legislation. It\u2019s something that has been expressed, I think, at all stages and did become perhaps more apparent through the select committee process: that this is a piece of legislation that, I still believe, should not be driven by decisions around procurement but should be taken from a principled approach as to how things would be rolled out and what is the right thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThat is why, up to this point, Labour has been deeply concerned about the concerns that have been expressed right throughout by the Attorney-General around the potential breaches that an individual who might be going about their normal business, any day of the week, any time of the week, would be, effectively, detained at the roadside. This is something that we were hopeful the Government during the committee stage would not only turn their mind to but actually give some serious consideration to making some changes. It\u2019s something that was contained in the select committee report, by all members, and the reason as to why there was no specified change in the select committee report is because we were not in a position, given time, to land ourselves on what an appropriate time limit would be, nor were officials able to provide the committee with what an appropriate level of time might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EFor the benefit of folks perhaps at home, what we\u2019re talking about here is if someone is going about their business on any day of the week and they come across a random checkpoint, a police checkpoint\u2014as they will experience when it comes to alcohol breath-screening tests at the moment\u2014and it is for the purpose of a drug test, under this legislation it is possible that they could be detained at the roadside for any length of time, because the bill as currently drafted has no limitations on how long someone could be detained. It\u2019s something that the Attorney-General herself did raise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThere is only one other piece of legislation in this country when it comes to land transport where there is a time limit, and that\u2019s 15 minutes for the police to, effectively, detain someone for the purposes of establishing their identity. So there is precedent for this in legislation, and so it is disappointing that the Government and the Minister didn\u2019t actually follow through on that. I am hopeful, though, given there is a review period and the review must be commenced within a five-year period, that the Government would look at the implementation of this bill and turn their mind to sort of time considerations to address the specific concerns that the Attorney-General had raised. I want to just really stress that these were concerns that were brought to the committee\u2019s attention and brought to parliamentarians\u2019 attention by the Attorney-General. The concerns that Labour has had and expressed through this process have been a direct result of the concerns that she has raised. So it is disappointing that we have landed there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThere are some really interesting changes that have come through as a result of this being in front of the select committee. One of the things that didn\u2019t change is the nature of the consultation by the Minister of Police, who would be the person who needed to be satisfied that these would be devices that could, basically, detect a list of families of qualifying drugs. The change in the legislation is that the Minister no longer has to be satisfied that the threshold would be met at a level that there was impairment to be followed through. That is an extremely high threshold, in terms of the nature of the devices being approved for that purpose. So we would have liked to have seen the opportunity for the Minister of Police, in this circumstance, to be able to consult with others outside the Minister of Transport and the Minister of science, if that was the case indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOne of the interesting things that this bill does also provide is a pathway for the police to engage the compulsory impairment tests. The select committee heard from the Police that there is an undertaking to sort of roll out the numbers of trained individuals that would be able to administer these tests. If we are in rural communities where it might take some time to get a trained compulsory impairment test person to the particular site, that does cause some limitations in itself. So it is pleasing to see that there is going to be a pathway that\u2019s available to the police there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI have no doubt that the police are well-intentioned in this space. Actually, I spent Saturday night out with my local Palmerston North police, and they do a fantastic job. But there is a concern that there needs to be limits that are baked into this legislation that provide certainty around liberty, and the ability for folk who are just going about their normal business of the day or night to be able to do that. It\u2019s really interesting that the ability for someone to elect for an independent analysis at the lab was something that was a new addition. I want to thank submitters for identifying that and the committee for bringing that in, because, as it stood as originally drafted, there wouldn\u2019t have been that ability for someone who might have an issue with the laboratory process to independently seek\u2014at their own cost\u2014to have their sample tested. And then, of course, it needs to be bio-verified and authenticated in a laboratory. But provided that was followed through, then that was another safeguard within the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOne of the interesting things that we\u2019ve heard from the Government is that they intend to roll this out by Christmas. I hope that this is a procedure and a bill that\u2019s really implemented in communities in a way that\u2019s safe. That procurement is something that still needs to be worked through, and, again, I really don\u2019t like the sense that procurement is what drives legislation. We should be looking at what good legislation is and then procurement falling within that. But I do hope that\u2014you know, the Government have indicated they want to roll this out by Christmas; that\u2019s not a very long runway. I hope that there is a lot of confidence in being able to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut I also hope that whilst this is being rolled out in communities all around the country, there is also an ability to be able to collect the information for the review process that will follow, because one of the changes that we have seen with this bill is the review would have undertaken quite an explicit list of aspects\u2014for example, the impact that this legislation may have on M\u0101ori and Pacific communities, which is something that submitters did raise. That was taken out by the Minister\u2019s amendments. So I do hope that the review is able to be undertaken in a way that really does address and turn its mind to some of the real issues that were raised at select committee that haven\u2019t been worked through in a fulsome way, in my view, by the committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo, as I say, this is a bill that will be important, because road safety is absolutely important. As I\u2019ve said, that is the reason why Labour, in Government, sought to do something about this. This legislation passing\u2014if not tonight, then tomorrow\u2014will be a further step towards ensuring that roads are safe and that communities are protected. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002225e650496b55450d981eb838bf1d57b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225e650496b55450d981eb838bf1d57b5\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party to oppose this bill for a number of reasons. But I want to say, first and foremost, that, yes, everyone should be free to travel around their communities and around our country without risking death or serious injury, and we can have that transport system that is free of death and that serious injury. Yes, it is true that no one should ever drive while seriously impaired. It puts themselves and others at risk. However, there is a lack of evidence that this bill or the drug-driving regime will address the root cause of dangerous or impaired driving, or of drug harm. I just want to unpack some of that, and what we observed in the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think one of the first things is the Land Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill has often been equated with drink-driving, but the thing is, we must understand that the way that we quantify and look at drink-driving in terms of the interaction between ethanol and our body and our digestive system is vastly different from the myriad of drugs that have been discussed in this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIndeed, in clause 4, when we\u2019re looking at qualifying drugs\u2014or a \u201Cfamily of qualifying drugs\u201D, under the definition\u2014one of the things that we did try to explore during the committee stage was around the idea of what it means when something shares a substantially similar chemical structure, particularly in light of benzodiazepine or amphetamine. Unlike ethanol, there are a lot of different compounds, particularly for medicinal uses. So, for example, anxiolytics or, potentially, central nervous system stimulants for ADHD treatment are some things that can have that particular chemical compound, particularly when we\u2019re looking at benzodiazepine and having similar structures, which benzodiazepine, for example, have in terms of having both a benzene as well as a diazepine ring structure in its chemical structure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe other concern that we have, for example, is the inconsistency when you\u2019re talking about pharmacological effect. So, again, pharmacological effect is when we\u2019re looking at the interaction between a particular drug or particular substance with the human body, and particularly when we\u2019re looking at what is considered the first-pass effect through the liver. But when we are looking at some of these clauses\u2014let\u2019s say clause 12(3), which replaces section 64(6)\u2014we\u2019re looking at the idea of the proportion of the drug in the system. It is not simply about impairment, and it doesn\u2019t take into account that certain people process certain compounds faster than others. So, naturally, we are seeing\u2014again, unlike ethanol\u2014possibly a discriminatory effect when we\u2019re looking at people being stopped for these sorts of tests. I think nothing in this bill finds itself with the baseline of impairment, because a lot of these come down to the proportion of the available drug, or the proportion of a qualifying drug, in a person\u2019s blood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo it does beg the question, from the very definition of qualifying drugs: are we looking at a discriminatory element, especially when you\u2019re looking at someone who is having certain mental health issues which will require certain drugs being administered\u2014or, indeed, who has certain neurodivergences, such as ADHD\u2014not being a part of this? We\u2019re seeing that even in the primary Act, under Schedule 5. For what is considered a qualifying drug, it actually determines the amount that should be present in the system.. But this bill, again, doesn\u2019t actually show those amounts, and we have no indication and no clarity from the Minister of Transport on when that Order in Council will be made that clarifies the actual amount within that, in terms of families of qualifying drugs. The example that I gave during the committee stage was bromazepam, which is anxiolytic, but it does share a similar structure to benzodiazepine, but it\u2019s not currently in the schedule of the primary Act, so we do need to have an amount that\u2019s specific to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe other concern\u2014and it also ties up, in general\u2014is that, indeed, very rarely, do we see a bill that fails the BORA test, and that\u2019s the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act test here in Parliament. This particular one does require the Attorney-General to produce a section 7 report. But I think what has been quite a disheartening factor about that is even though there is a section 7 report that has been done on this, there are a number of sections which I think would have been pertinent for the Attorney-General, and also for the Government, to consider under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, and which have not been considered as a result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ETo give an example, when we are looking at\u2014for example, I gave a couple of cases on this particular issue. One of them is the Taylor v New Zealand Poultry Board case, which was from 1984 and went all the way up to the Court of Appeal, which very much challenges the very essence of natural law theory and particularly the presumption against self-incrimination. Indeed, this particular one touches on the BORA principles in sections 23(4), 25(d), and also 27(1), none of which were explored as part of the section 7 report, despite the fact that, again, we have a section 7 report as opposed to a consistency report against the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThis is a serious concern because, for many of us, we know that, under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, we have natural rights under natural law, one of which, the presumption against self-incrimination, very much doesn\u2019t allow one an absolute right\u2014potentially, if you want to argue that\u2014against self-incrimination. By having a police officer pull you up and force you to take a test, that very much touches on, some would say, one of the fundamental rights against self-incrimination. I think one of the things that has been particularly evident in the Attorney-General\u2019s report as a result of this was actually that, yes, maybe one could argue that, on balance, particularly if you are applying section 5 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and the limitations, maybe there is a reason for us to limit that particular right. However, we have also seen that the oral fluid test cannot prove impairment. That\u2019s one of the major issues because it is not like alcohol, where the relationship between breath and blood levels is more strongly correlated with impairment. Yes, there may have been some things that have been said in terms of the accuracy of this particular oral test, but, to be honest, it doesn\u2019t actually offer the same level of reassurance as what we\u2019re currently seeing in terms of the breath alcohol test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I want to mention as also part of the same vein in terms of potential challenges in terms of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act is actually a very recent case where the ruling just came out a few days ago, which is aptly named Lawrence v New Zealand Police. This is a High Court ruling that talks about when a person\u2014in this case, Mr Lawrence\u2014was stopped by the police. He was allowed to consult a lawyer, as your natural right is to consult a lawyer. But one of the things that the officer failed to consider is that under section 23(1)(b) of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, the right to consult the lawyer also requires the right to privacy, as in you are supposed to consult the lawyer in private. Because of the fact that the police officer just happened to be in the car with Mr Lawrence at that precise time, it also meant that that particular test was considered inadmissible in court because of the fact that the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act had been violated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo we are actually going to be seeing a lot more potential challenges when it comes to this. With regards to clause 27 of this particular bill where it talks about how an enforcement officer must forbid a person to drive a motor vehicle for the 12-hour period if the person fails or refuses to undergo an oral fluid screening test without delay, one of the other things we haven\u2019t managed to get clarity on during the committee stage is what \u201Cwithout delay\u201D actually means. I think what it does is it opens our enforcement officers up for a lot of legal challenges under the court of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo, to sum up, the Green Party will not be supporting this. Not only, from a pharmacological component, have we not gotten the reassurance that\u2014when we\u2019re looking at qualifying drugs or interaction of drugs or even drugs that are available for certain treatment of anxiety and neurodiversity\u2014it has the protection for those people, but we\u2019re also seeing some severe challenges in terms of the fundamental New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, both through the section 7 report and also through some of the case law that I\u2019ve expressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut there are other ways to deal with this. I just want to leave in saying that unsafe speed is actually a factor in more fatal crashes than alcohol or drugs. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u00228dca62e84c9a420a911d93140836dbbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dca62e84c9a420a911d93140836dbbe\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the ACT Party to speak on this third reading of the Land Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill. It has been traversed by many others in the House, but I will do so again: driving while impaired is a dangerous activity on the road, and that is what this bill is trying to address. It\u2019s not good enough for New Zealanders and their families to go about their lawful business on the road and have the risk of someone who is seriously impaired through drug-driving also sharing that road and creating a danger for all of us in this country. Serious impairment is something that needs to be picked up on, and the best that we can do right now is with the tests that we have. This bill is also supposed to repair something that has been in place already, and the Labour members have spoken on it, and we\u2019ve had a bill of a similar nature trying to achieve a similar goal in 2022. It wasn\u2019t, despite the good intentions of the time, able to achieve that, and so this bill is in place to try and remedy that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EI was on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, which examined this piece of legislation, and as has been traversed, again, there were some issues raised at the select committee. On one of those issues, I took the opportunity to speak to the Minister who introduced this bill, to raise my concerns about the time which someone could be delayed from undertaking their lawful business on the side of the road and also the ambiguity around whether that person could be required to accompany a police officer to a further location than what would be deemed necessary by any reasonable person. I have been reassured, and something in the statutory review in the bill has reassured me, that we will be able to address this issue and others in future, because, as the select committee said in our commentary, we think that the statutory review process of the bill needs to happen. Our request for the Government is to consider further whether this bill should include a time limit in which enforcement officers may require a driver to remain stopped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EThis bill contains within it a statutory review, which must be undertaken between three and four years from this bill passing, and I think, at that point, there are quite a few issues which do need to be traversed. Some have been traversed tonight; some, I\u2019m sure, will be brought up by other members. But, for my part, I think some serious attention needs to be given to the time which a New Zealander or a visitor to our country can be delayed from going about their lawful business and how far they can be expected to remove themselves from an unsafe area, and whether that has been properly accounted for with the new knowledge that we have. Part of what the select committee was unable to make our decision on was the lack of options around suitable time frames. That was fair enough. The officials told us, \u201CWe don\u2019t know what the procurement\u2019s going to be right now, so we\u2019re going to have to build some of this into the bill.\u201D OK, we\u2019ve accepted that, but that means, when the statutory review comes up, that\u2019s the right time when this stuff needs to be taken into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EThere was one other issue that I think should be in the statutory review, and that came up during select committee, and that was the regime of random testing. Randomness was acknowledged by the officials as a euphemism for a strategic approach that can be applied through operational planning. It doesn\u2019t mean random\u2014just pick up every 20th car\u2014it means that Police will use a strategic approach on how they operationalise this. I think that this House would see it as quite important that that also is included in the statutory review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003ESo, with that out of the way, I think it is important that this bill passes, so that New Zealanders can have confidence that, when they go out on the road, they are doing so amongst a community of safe drivers who are not impaired. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u00225791f2138f3f407583a21b9d453a1dab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225791f2138f3f407583a21b9d453a1dab\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak to the Land Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill. I just want to follow my colleagues, mostly from the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, and say thank you to them and to the other members who doubtless will speak shortly for the hard work that they\u2019ve put together and the collegial work that they did to bring this bill to where it is and to recommend a number of amendments to the House, many of which are part of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThis bill is about road safety. We\u2019ve already had Tangi Utikere talk about road safety in a broader context, and road safety best practice usually would say that\u2019s about safer roads and roadsides, about safer speeds, about safer vehicles, and about safer road users. This bill is about the safer road users part of that because drug-driving we know is a major problem on our roads. We had 289 people who tragically lost their lives last calendar year on the roads. That is the first time below 300 since 2014 and, actually, according to the Automobile Association, is the lowest per capita rate of death since the 1920s. But it is still 289 people who died on our roads, and that is 289 too many.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EOf those, 64 had drugs in their system, and a further 32 had drugs and alcohol in their system. So there is no doubt that drugs are playing a significant role in road death and injury. That is why this bill is here. This bill aims to put in place a drug-testing regime. The whole purpose of that is not so much to catch people but to discourage people from consuming drugs, being under the influence of drugs, and then driving, and then potentially causing death or injury to themselves or to other people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EAs we\u2019ve already heard, the previous Labour Government saw this as a problem and had a crack at fixing it. The intention was good. The problem was that for the regime that was put in place, the technology just simply doesn\u2019t exist to be able to do the testing at roadside and be able to determine someone effectively guilty at roadside, because the technology is not there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ESo what this regime does is, instead of doing that, it says we do a screening test at roadside and then we do a laboratory test to say, \u201CWe\u2019re going to fine you.\u201D That laboratory test is recognised as being much, much more robust. So the advice that we had from the experts was that they couldn\u2019t stand behind the accuracy of the roadside test\u2014the oral fluid test. It\u2019s pretty good, but it\u2019s not perfect. There\u2019s always that issue of saying\u2014whether you like the numbers or not\u2014it is better that 100 guilty people go free than that one innocent person is convicted. So I guess that that is what that thinking is about. But what they did say is that they would stand behind the lab test as being just as good and just as accurate as the blood test, which we already are familiar with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ESo this regime puts in place that two-stage mechanism. The bill is based, in theory, on random, but random, as you\u2019ve heard my colleague Cam Luxton say, actually is a bit targeted. It\u2019s targeted to places where, while it is in theory anyone, anywhere, anytime\u2014that\u2019s true\u2014it is likely to be operationally targeted. Part of that is because the number of drug tests is going to be very, very much less than the number of alcohol tests that are done at the moment. But it is still intended as a deterrent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ELook, that does take me to the one issue which did exercise the select committee and also, as we\u2019ve already heard, the Attorney-General, and that is in the first instance, before somebody\u2019s been tested\u2014they\u2019ve not been found guilty, there\u2019s no behaviour, and there\u2019s no evidence of drug taking at this stage. There may be later on, after they\u2019ve been tested. But before they\u2019ve been tested, what rights do they have? Now, the Attorney-General said, \u201CYou\u2019re stopping somebody. You\u2019re detaining them for a period of time. You are taking a saliva test, so there\u2019s some level of intrusion.\u201D So the Attorney-General and quite a number of the submitters expressed concern about that. The select committee spent some time thinking about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ESo, look, I just wanted to put on record that this was a concern that we raised. There was exploration of whether we should suggest a time limit by which the testing should be done. Look, I understand why there isn\u2019t one that the Minister has taken up. Part of that is because, while Tangi Utikere said we don\u2019t want to be led by the technology which is available, the reality is that until we\u2019ve got technology, we don\u2019t know whether it\u2019s a 10-minute process, a 15-minute process, or a 20-minute process, and allowing for some time left over to make sure you do that process properly. So I understand that; any time that we\u2019ve put in there at this stage would have been a bit random. But we were concerned\u2014and I did want to put this on the record\u2014about the potential length of detention. We were concerned, also, about the 12-hour stand down, which occurs, essentially, if you\u2019ve tested positive at the roadside\u2014you\u2019re still going to get that 12-hour stand down, even if the lab test says \u201CNo, you\u2019re actually in the clear.\u201D So there\u2019s an issue there. But it is an issue about road safety, so we thought that that took primacy over the inconvenience of that 12-hour stand down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThere were concerns expressed about prescription medicines, but I think the answer to that, really, is to say, well, look, if you\u2019ve taken a prescription medicine, most of those things say to give yourself a reasonable length of time before you actually drive after using a prescription medicine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe other one, as Cam Luxton also said, is the issue around accompanying a police officer. What we really anticipated there was that if you\u2019ve pulled over on the side of the road, the police officer might say to you, \u201CLook, we want you to move to a safer place.\u201D\u2014so you\u2019re not on the road itself; you\u2019ve moved off the road\u2014rather than taking you 20 minutes, 30 minutes, or whatever it might be to a police station, particularly in the rural areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ELook, we were concerned about the power of the State, I guess, and the Attorney-General said that as well, and we want to make sure that\u2019s exercised properly. One of the things we did do was to say that we wanted to make the process more flexible, so we allowed the police to flick between the oral fluid testing and the existing good-cause-to-suspect regime. But, really, what I wanted to finish off with was to say, despite all of those concerns, which we want to put on record, those things, I think, can be dealt with by the process, which is in the legislation, of monitoring, of reviewing, and then, potentially, of changing as a result of those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI think, to put on record, these are the things which we think the executive of the Government should be paying attention to. With that, I think it will be a good regime. It will be a step forward for road safety, and the monitoring regime, hopefully, will provide\u2014or we expect will provide\u2014the protections for civil liberties and for our people. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b34a8b1ba381465ca6b785a11f80faf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b34a8b1ba381465ca6b785a11f80faf8\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Greens to give our last call on the Land Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill for tonight. I just want to say that I think, on principle, everybody here has acknowledged that impaired driving can be an issue and it can result in harm. Whether this bill actually addresses impaired driving is a whole other issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ETo me, the previous speaker, Andy Foster, gave us a lot of good reasons as to why we should be cautious about this bill, and there\u2019s actually a lot of really good, valid reasons that would lead us to believe and argue that this is not the solution to the problem. One of the issues that was identified by the previous speaker was the sort of technology that was emerging in relation to having accuracy in those roadside tests, including in the laboratory. That is an emerging area that is developing. I think the problem is that we\u2019re having legislation being introduced where the technology is not fully there, when we actually do have experts who have told us about the initiatives that can be put in place at the community level to reduce the harm that substance use can cause. So if the concern that we have is that drug use can result in harm\u2014in this case, by people actually going on the road while being impaired\u2014that can be addressed right now with the evidence-based stuff that we have available at our disposal. That needs to be funded by the Government in order for us to minimise the harm of substance use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAs many have identified\u2014including the New Zealand Law Society, the Royal Australasian College of Physicians, and the New Zealand Drug Foundation\u2014this bill fails to address some key issues, such as actually ascertaining whether a driver is impaired, which is very different from whether a test actually registers that there\u2019s a substance in someone\u2019s body. This is a really, really important distinction that needs to be made. There were examples of how medicinal cannabis, for example, could cause people to return a positive test while having no signs of impairment. That actually disincentivises people from seeking medical treatment when they need it, out of fear that they may face repercussions. While those penalties may not be put in place until the lab test comes back, actually, even the roadside testing may result in people being prevented from driving for 12 hours. That cannot be understated as a harmful effect of a piece of legislation that is not grounded in evidence. Those 12 hours could have quite severe real-life implications for people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker spoke about the randomness, I guess, of how this may be administered. But what we do know, and the evidence can point at this, is that, actually, M\u0101ori and Pacific communities are already disproportionately targeted by our authorities. So the reality is that because we do have that systemic issue within our Government agencies, what we will actually be seeing is the targeting of those communities in this piece of legislation when they\u2019re already targeted in other parts of the system. When people are already profiled based on their ethnicity or socio-economic background, for example, and associated with drug use, I just cannot see how this bill\u2014when it cannot present a robust, evidence-based argument for, for example, how accurately the technology that we\u2019ll have will deliver a positive result when it comes to impairment. Yet we\u2019re relying on the authorities to make calls in relation to roadside testing that will actually reduce harm in our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIf the Government was so, so serious about reducing injuries and deaths on the roads, what they would not be doing is campaigning on increasing the speed limits and taking selfies to celebrate increases in speed limits. Those are the things that actually can make our roads safer. Those are the things that are grounded on evidence. If the Government wants to reduce the harm that substances cause, I think we need a Minister in charge of issues that has a track record of actually campaigning based on the best research available. When we have Ministers that have shown very little knowledge on issues relating to the evidence when it comes to health, I think it is concerning to see, then, a Minister championing an issue that will actually not deal with the real harm that substances can cause in our communities, that can result in death. This is why our communities deserve far better than a dog-whistle bill that doesn\u2019t address the fundamental, underlying issues that can lead to harm in our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00229ddcea975948477a8354a846c41cff98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ddcea975948477a8354a846c41cff98\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to begin by acknowledging the hard-working members of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u2014past and present\u2014of which I am a member, for shepherding this bill through the House. In particular, my colleagues Tom Rutherford and Grant McCallum, who have been replaced on the committee, but, no doubt, did a lot of work on the select committee\u2014as did others from around Parliament: Tangi Utikere, Andy Foster, Cameron Luxton, and other members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI think a lot of issues have been traversed tonight on the importance of the substance of this bill that we\u2019re looking at. I think most of us here acknowledge the importance of making sure we keep our roads as safe as possible, and doing as much as we can in a practical sense. I\u2019ve listened intently, as I\u2019m a new member of the select committee. I\u2019ve listened to the debate and it\u2019s quite clear to me that there was a gap between rhetoric and intent and actual delivery on the ground. That is what this bill actually seeks to achieve: to develop a mechanism and a policy that can be operationalised so that police can go out there\u2014as you will well know, Mr Speaker\u2014and apply the best tools available to keep our communities safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI am certainly well and truly supportive of this bill. I do want to acknowledge, yes, there were many issues that have been raised in the last few speeches. But I think that is why there is a five-year review of this bill. I am encouraged by, particularly, my colleague Cameron Luxton, who did raise some serious concerns through the select committee and has reassurance that through the five-year term the bill will be revised and improved even more. So, with that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb775f93ca024b3199dd409851019bc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb775f93ca024b3199dd409851019bc7\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on the Land Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill. First of all, I would like to note that there is a level of disappointment on this side of the House that the Government have not supported imposing a time limit on how long those drivers can in fact be detained at the roadside, because we know, as per the report from the Attorney-General, that this would have mitigated those concerns raised in that report. It sought to have a 20-minute time frame for drivers to be detained for the initial oral fluid screening test. We would have liked to have seen the ability of the Minister of Police to have the option of consulting with any other Ministers, in addition to the Minister of Transport and Minister of science, if that was considered to be appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESaying that, though, look, we continue to support the bill, because it is about road safety and it is about making sure that people who are impaired are not endangering our roads, as they currently do. I would like to highlight the point that it\u2019s good we\u2019re having this legislation coming into place as soon as possible, because what we\u2019re seeing in New Zealand right now is an absolutely unprecedented level of methamphetamine use. We do know, through anecdotal reports, that those driving for long hours can use methamphetamine in order to keep awake if they\u2019re required to, and this is incredibly dangerous for other drivers on our roads. Given the fact that in a period of just 12 months, we have seen a 96 percent increase, in the waste-water testing that Police released just last Friday\u2014so that\u2019s in a 12-month period\u2014we are seeing record levels of methamphetamine coming over the border, finding its way into organised criminal networks, and then being distributed across streets and communities in New Zealand. If people are taking methamphetamine 96 percent more than they were a year ago, the risk of those people driving on our roads impaired has increased as well. So it\u2019s timely and appropriate that we have the ability for police to stop and check and make sure that someone does not have those substances within their system, if they are in fact in charge of a vehicle on our roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s good to see that this legislation is progressing. It builds upon our support for the fact that police can already conduct those compulsory impairment tests on drivers if they have in fact good cause to suspect that they could be impaired or the driver could have consumed drugs. The introduction of roadside screening tests is a sensible, practical move that will enable roadside testing to detect those drugs and help remove impaired drivers from behind the wheel. It\u2019s good to see also that there\u2019s a five-year review period, because we know that one of the holdups, really, to getting this under way quicker is the fact that we want good, reliable technology that gives results that can stand up and be verified in the lab. We want to make sure that the technology that this legislation is relying upon is in fact in place, and we know that technology can move rapidly. So this is an area where, in five years, we may well see new technology developed that is far more refined and accurate than the existing testing system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe way I understand the existing testing system to work is that once a positive test has been confirmed, once that goes to the lab, what it will detect is families of drugs. In terms of amphetamine, an amphetamine would show methamphetamine; it would also pick up, potentially, ADHD medication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAlso, there are other types of medication that are classified as an amphetamine that would be classified and picked up in that area. Similarly, when we have opioids as a family of drugs, tramadol is a synthetic opioid and would be picked up potentially similarly as to heroin, one being potentially legally prescribed; one being an illicit substance purchased on the black market. So I think what will be very interesting to see as these cases are picked up by this new legislation\u2014they will proceed into our courts, and we will see instances where they\u2019re being challenged as to whether it is an illicit drug that has been consumed or whether it is in fact a prescribed drug, and whether there are clear instructions on whether that person was able to be operating a vehicle or not once taking that particular prescription drug.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo I think this is going to have a series of effects that will run down the line and impact on how doctors are potentially prescribing and taking a lot more care about thinking whether this would turn up in a roadside drug-test, and I think it will give people a lot more consideration as to how prescription drugs are being used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt will also impact upon those people who take medicinal cannabis, for example, with cannabidiol (CBD) and THC full-spectrum oil being used and prescribed as medicinal cannabis. People should quite clearly with tetrahydrocannabinol not be using a vehicle, but there are instances where CBD is in a low level in the system\u2014whether that will be picked up and found as having cannabis within the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo all of those instances will need to be refined, and, to be quite frank, I don\u2019t know that we know exactly how this is going to work until we get cases of police pulling people over, testing them, turning in a positive test, going to the lab, and then finding out whether the courts have ruled that is in fact a driver that\u2019s impaired. Those are the things that we\u2019ll need to work through as we watch how this legislation rolls out across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt also means that our police will be working hard to make sure that they pick people up and hold them accountable and making sure that they\u2019re adequately resourced to be able to carry out this work, and make sure that there\u2019s adequate funding, also, for the Institute of Environmental Science and Research (ESR) tests and the lab tests to occur in a timely manner to make sure all of those things happen. So I think it\u2019s only right that you\u2019ve got a five-year review period to take a good look at how this law is operating, hoping that it\u2019s operating in the way we intended it to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThere are many instances where we\u2019ve heard\u2014I know former MP Dr Nick Smith was a strong advocate. He had a constituent I\u2019m aware of in his area who was a tragic instance that was brought up when we were in the Justice Committee of where someone\u2019s life was lost. There are accounts where people avoid being picked up for driving under the influence of alcohol by instead consuming illicit drugs. So having a system that accurately records impairment for both alcohol and illicit substances will make our roads safer and will avoid instances where people needlessly lose their lives because of a driver impaired on our roads. So, for that reason, we think this is going in the right direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt will be really important that the device that we\u2019re talking about will be required to have a concentration threshold for a qualifying drug and that the threshold would need to be at a level that differentiates it as a recent drug use as opposed to historical or accidental exposure. That\u2019s particular from the instances and the advice I received when I was Minister of Police, for things like medicinal cannabis, which stays in the system for two weeks or longer. So if someone\u2019s had that two weeks ago and it\u2019s showing up in a test, it\u2019ll be important that the device has a level of concentration threshold for a qualifying drug. For those drugs in the amphetamine family, the advice was that those can pass through the system roughly for a 72-hour period and they\u2019re completely out of an individual\u2019s system. So different drugs stay in the system for a longer period of time, and the drug being present within the system does not always mean that the driver was impaired at the time. So making sure that the devices that are approved are able to detect whether there is a concentration threshold qualified in there that\u2019s necessary will be important for fairness before the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to, in closing, acknowledge the hard work of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. I know they went out to Kenepuru and they visited the ESR. It\u2019s always good to see select committees going out and undertaking field work to get their heads around some of the more complex areas in order for legislation to be passed in a way that we know will work as well as it is. This is a fascinating area of the law, and it\u2019s good that we\u2019re supporting it on both sides of the House, and I truly hope that it saves lives. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002273fc49e21775448283c1713b49efc0cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273fc49e21775448283c1713b49efc0cf\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure to speak on the Land Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill. I almost thought I\u2019d come in to an alternative reality when the Green member was speaking earlier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThe reality is that this bill is about getting people off the roads who are driving while impaired, whether that be with legal or illegal drugs, or alcohol. Indeed, it doesn\u2019t matter to the victim whether the drugs are legal or illegal; they just don\u2019t want to be caught up in an accident on the road. This is a sensible piece of legislation, and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022157493cdee1e43f0a360a1cea6c9bf05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022157493cdee1e43f0a360a1cea6c9bf05\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a five-minute, split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00229e9c249add7a47daba085c17d7b77997\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e9c249add7a47daba085c17d7b77997\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to speak this evening on the Land Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill. I have followed this particular piece of legislation quite closely. It was under the last Labour Government that we introduced the capacity for roadside drug-testing for the drug-testing regime, because we believe, of course, that it\u2019s important to keep our roads as safe as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EIt is somewhat inconsistent with other actions of this Government\u2014and I heard from the Minister of Transport tonight that, obviously, he really encourages anything that enacts safer roads in this country. That\u2019s probably inconsistent with the work that\u2019s been done to change speed limits back in this country, particularly when it comes to those speed limits in and around our schools and the concerns that have been raised particularly by parents and wh\u0101nau in those particular areas. So it is important to me that the Government is consistent in their road safety practices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EUnder this piece of legislation, of course, we know that it\u2019s important that when somebody is tested on roadside for impairment, they are held there at that particular time to ensure both an accurate response and outcome to that, so that our police are supported in the decisions that they make in that area to take the next round of actions, of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EBut we are disappointed, on this side of the House, tonight that the Government have not supported imposing a time limit on how long drivers can be detained on the roadside for. We did want to explore this, and, while I acknowledge the chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, Andy Foster, for the work that the committee has done on this, I am disappointed that due consideration wasn\u2019t then followed up and the Government haven\u2019t listened to that particular issue\u2014but particularly to that issue being raised by the Attorney-General\u2014that it sought to have a 20-minute time frame for drivers to be detained for the initial oral fluid screening testing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWe have discussed and debated the accuracy in this sense, and I think that\u2019s really important. I do share concerns, particularly on how legislation just like this particularly impacts M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and young people in this country. We need to ensure that the right parameters and protections are put in place to ensure that they get a fair go when they are tested at roadside, because we know the outcome of that, and we don\u2019t want that particular group unfairly targeted in any way when they already experience particular challenges at the roadside in this sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ELabour is supporting this particular piece of legislation tonight. It builds on the work that we started but, of course, doesn\u2019t quite have the parameters and the safeguards in place that we had hoped for. But we think it\u2019s important, in the name of road safety, to push forward on this, so I do, along with my colleagues, commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00222550cb90d5424ffe8ae45c83eab3f1e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222550cb90d5424ffe8ae45c83eab3f1e9\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. As my colleague said, it was a privilege to sit on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee through most of the deliberations of this piece of legislation. I do want to highlight both to the House and to the general public that in 2023, there were 64 fatalities where the presence of drugs was detected in the driver, and a further 32 drivers were found to have both drugs and alcohol in their system whilst operating on the road. So this legislation is simply about ensuring that for New Zealanders and international visitors and anyone who drives on our roads, they can feel comfortable and safe knowing that drug drivers will not be operating vehicles and that the New Zealand Police have the enforcement and the tools they need to ensure our roads are safe for everyone and that we can reduce fatalities in this country. It is 2025. It has long been time for legislation like this to help keep our roads safe for the general public, and so I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002293bce9a0da4749c18f6804e33b85668c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293bce9a0da4749c18f6804e33b85668c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Right, the time has come from me to leave the Chair. The sitting will resume at 9 a.m. Good night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.57 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503254fc1d7d1bdf14387a0667965d15e3866000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9dbb9fd77c54ae49910015ee2fd421f\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 25 MARCH 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002224acb8924a2145fa8a675b3a3dae9e18\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 26 March 2025)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e972a9845c1a425baccb82eaed9f5afa\u0022\u003ELand Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de82d88ff6e64c42913fd372ef9ce3a4\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222731a6666fc14df5a7dc3ddbe8a247e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222731a6666fc14df5a7dc3ddbe8a247e1\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. The House is resumed. When we suspended last night, we were debating the third reading of the Land Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill, with two speeches remaining. The next call is a Labour call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022d18d72b2259b4b57b507374ac4da9ce4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d18d72b2259b4b57b507374ac4da9ce4\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Every loss of life on our roads is a tragedy. Every single one is something that the Government and communities and drivers have responsibility to do everything in our power to stop. That includes safety measures on our roads, safe speeds, and the appropriate sort of testing that goes along with harmful products like drugs and alcohol to make sure that people aren\u2019t unnecessarily affected in their driving by those things and kill themselves and kill others on the roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s something that I think about as a local MP when, in Manurewa, we have some of the highest incidents of road deaths in the country. In just a small area around my house, we are the area of highest road pedestrian deaths in the country. The impact on communities is huge. Every loss of life means a parent or a friend, a grandparent, someone who is taken out of those communities and cannot do the things that they need to, and their families who rely on them will never have them again. So this is part of that. This is part of something that the Government can do alongside communities to make our roads safer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI speak about it in that way because all road rules, everything that we do on the roads, requires a huge level of community support. You know, just things like thinking about which side of the road we drive on is an arbitrary \u201Cline in the sand\u201D judgment call for regulators to make that we need community buy-in for. We can\u2019t be enforcing these things all the time. We need people to believe in the rules and to have faith that they will be enforced in a not-arbitrary way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been thinking about how this bill\u2014it has had a long life in this House. The Minister of Transport was right when he said that this is the third time Parliament has been back here to consider how these rules will impact on people and to design a system that can have both community support and is robust and is supported by not only the drivers themselves but also by the police, and, on the other hand, is something which gives enough flexibility to procure a system of testing on the roadside that not only meets international standards and international norms around these things but is also just something that New Zealand can get its hands on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere have been problems for the select committee working it through, the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. Even though this is the third time, you\u2019d think some of these issues were settled. But the science leads us to ask further questions\u2014things like whether we can and ever will be measuring for impairment, when we know that the tests that are being used here are about measuring the substance in people\u2019s systems and the existence of that substance in someone\u2019s bloodstream, rather than the way it has affected their driving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI was thinking about this because our democracy does rely on trust. It relies on people\u2019s ability to see that their Government exists by consent. Around the world, the way that democracies are being challenged not only by the fringe on the right and the left but by people\u2019s lack of engagement too\u2014the fact that people aren\u2019t voting and the fact that every year, in major democracies, people turn away from their opportunity to engage with their politicians and do not cast their vote tells me that there is something about Governments now where people don\u2019t see themselves represented. They don\u2019t see themselves listened to. And if we make rules where people don\u2019t feel that they are heard and they don\u2019t feel like their own personal experience is taken into account, then what do we expect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI think the arbitrariness of laws is something we should always be sceptical about as politicians. Sometimes laws will be arbitrary. Whether you drive on the left-hand or the right-hand side of the road is an arbitrary call, but it\u2019s a call because we need a side of the road to drive on and it needs to be safe, and everyone agrees that there does need to be a rule, even if that rule is neither here nor there about which rule it is. So to have any sort of rule, we have to be able to justify it, and that\u2019s, I think, what the select committee has endeavoured deeply to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut, again, it does go to the wider context in which we are introducing this. Speed rules are also arbitrary because there has to be a number. The difference in safety between 50 and 51 or 51 and 52 is difficult to quantify, but there is a difference and someone needs to make a rule. So when we are making all of these rules around road safety, we have to constantly be testing: are these arbitrary? If it is an arbitrary rule, can people see themselves represented in this? Is their experience acknowledged by Government? That\u2019s where we got into some real difficulties and some real testing conversations in the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI think we\u2019ve done that in real good faith and I think that we have landed somewhere in this bill that we can all live with. But there are some remaining challenges, and we want to see the review provisions in this bill used so that we can all be sure that this is a robust rule limit, that it will be enforced in the way that we expect it to, because discretion and fairness matter in this law, and those objective measures are needed to determine whether this is working in the way that we expect it to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAs I said, impairment would be the thing that you would want to test in this. You would want to have alignment with what was being tested at the roadside was how affected a driver was. We heard submission after submission that that was not in fact a perfect correlation, that the science wasn\u2019t there yet. So we hope it will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe have designed a rule here which not only gives police quite a lot of flexibility in terms of the kind of procurement and the kind of devices they can use but also we\u2019ve given regulatory flexibility in the secondary legislation to experts to determine, over time, what impairment looks like at a level for certain substances. You need to do that. There\u2019s no way that as a select committee we could have possibly made every regulation for every substance or every family of substances, because the sorts of substances used on our road now will be different to those used in 10 years, will be different to those used in 20. I mean, in the crises of synthetic cannabinoids in New Zealand, when those were widely available on the market, it was changing month to month as the regulations couldn\u2019t keep up. We appreciate that. But we need people to also know that that is why this Parliament hasn\u2019t considered the level of impairment there, because we could not, because the science isn\u2019t there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe also need our officials to hear us. There have been a number of speeches in this House about what officials could tell the committee and what they couldn\u2019t. There is no intention here that this is a carte blanche licence to use the levels of substance and people systems or the very wide provisions around time and the amount of time that someone can spend on the roadside in a way that would be an incremental erosion of the ordinary rights and freedoms that New Zealanders can expect, because we want them to have faith in this law. We want them to have faith in this system, in this regime, and they all need to buy into it, because it\u2019s not a system which can rely on enforcement. It\u2019s a system which relies on people knowing that drug-driving is not OK, that nobody should be operating a car if they\u2019re under the influence of any sort of drugs, whether it is prescription drugs and they haven\u2019t been taken in accordance with the instructions, and so that person shouldn\u2019t be driving while they\u2019re behind the wheel, or whether it\u2019s illicit drugs and that person should be off the roads and shouldn\u2019t be putting other people in danger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt also needs to have a practical outcome. So we want to make sure that what we\u2019re designing here is a system which\u2014you know, New Zealanders will have seen in other jurisdictions, where the committee heard that in many jurisdictions in Australia, they\u2019ve also been through a few different rounds of this sort of legislation where they\u2019ve made changes as they go, because you need to get these settings right, because they do get challenged in the courts. So it\u2019s important here that New Zealanders feel like this is something that could change over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut we want to design a system that is more similar to roadside alcohol breath testing, and that it\u2019s just a part of being a driver on the road, that you might expect to be pulled over for a short amount of time and be submitting to the swab test. You might need to do two, and you might need to go through that process. We\u2019re not envisioning here a system where you would spend a long amount of time on the roadside. Personally, I think that it would have been a real benefit to this law if we had set some guidelines and some parameters around how long we expect being on the side of the road. But, again, we could not get a good sense from officials about a reasonable amount of time to put in the Act. In other parts of the Act, you\u2019ll find 15 minutes is a useful amount of time to be deterring someone on the side of the road, and I personally think that that would have been a reasonable amount of time to include in this, but that is not what\u2019s included here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EJust to wrap up, I think this is a sensible law. I personally will be watching this progress in our communities and around New Zealand, because I want it to work. I want people to have faith in it. I want people to have faith that the parliamentarians who are making these laws are taking their experiences into account. I don\u2019t want to see people arbitrarily detained, I don\u2019t want to see people spending too long, and I don\u2019t want this having an effect where we\u2019re having people on prescription medications unfairly treated when they\u2019re just trying to get home. This is a reasonable bill, and I commend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u002205f8a3ee0f0c4addb0c7d92c4f77c5b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205f8a3ee0f0c4addb0c7d92c4f77c5b2\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. For far too long, drugged drivers have put other road users at risk. Well, guess what! Those days are over, and anyone driving while impaired can expect to get caught and face the consequences. Finally, police will have the tools they need to help keep Kiwis safe from drugged drivers. My final thoughts on this bill are, if you\u2019re thinking of driving drugged, don\u2019t\u2014just don\u2019t. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022 data-id=\u00223328960b4a9f4ad1a2de064316e6d5dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223328960b4a9f4ad1a2de064316e6d5dd\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. Otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i \u0113tahi whakaaro hei apiti ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero kua hori nei e ng\u0101 mema o te Whare. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te k\u014Drero m\u014D te taha ki te rangatahi M\u0101ori me ng\u0101 p\u0101nga ka ngau kino ki runga ki a r\u0101tou, \u0101, ka t\u014Dia te w\u0101hi ki te M\u0101ori i roto i ng\u0101 kawenga o Te T\u0101hu o te Ture, t\u014Dna katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Madam Speaker. Greetings to all. I stand to deliver some sentiments to add to what has already been said by the members of this House. I stand to speak regarding M\u0101ori youth and the impacts that have caused them trauma, and that M\u0101ori should have a place in the functions of the Ministry of Justice, completely.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EI rise to present Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2019s views on the bill. Let me just be clear that we do not support driving under any impairment\u2014drugs, alcohol, or any other thing; we\u2019re 100\u00A0percent pro safer roads. But what we cannot not address in this House is the Government\u2019s continuation of dismissing the negative impacts on M\u0101ori, and in this bill I\u2019m going to speak to the negative impacts on rangatahi M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EThis is a very, very key piece of the justice pipeline when it comes to M\u0101ori in prison, because being in prison\u2014that 54\u00A0percent of M\u0101ori men in prison starts somewhere; for most young M\u0101ori youth, male, rangatahi M\u0101ori, it starts with an interaction with the police over driving, or an interaction with police over low-level drug offending. This is how it starts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fea41734499b4147ae71df2cdf8b160d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f78d132aaaa4e64a0e1b260dc6526a8\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, \u201CDon\u2019t do it.\u201D, you say. It\u2019s a symptom of poverty. You wouldn\u2019t know about that. You obviously haven\u2019t researched what poverty means either, so don\u2019t do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229279a4305993407faf8f95d15fd5e152\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s bringing you into disrepute, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf3c038a2e574212a6e2647541370322\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: So this is where it starts for rangatahi M\u0101ori, OK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d91e29c699ae4795a915ebaa7e4ff1aa\u0022\u003EHon Member:\u003C/span\u003E Bet you did it\u2014did you get pulled over?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228120d77fce174ce995d08e830a7d19b8\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: This is where it starts for rangatahi M\u0101ori, and this is how the system and the laws that are being created ensures that they are delivered\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce57be4053c440dbb1151933d724008e\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re the only one that\u2019s been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022721a0344086647e0a27c2ad411c33a8e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can we please not have a barrage in front of the person who\u2019s speaking. It\u2019s OK to interject\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d26d62b84d474b9291291f2befc93aea\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc20d4288ce444f9a14e35502f0485ab\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but I don\u2019t want people shouting in front of the speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a594b7c7f9ed487c8000d2c53c9358ab\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Let me just get back to the point. I\u2019m talking about young M\u0101ori, aged 14, 15, 16, 17 years old. They don\u2019t fairly come into contact with the justice system. It\u2019s not fair. That\u2019s perfectly understood. If you don\u2019t understand that, oh, man, we\u2019re in trouble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EBut this is what we\u2019re dealing with and this is what I\u2019m speaking to with regards to this bill. I see our justice Minister is here. Justice, right across its three areas, has three key performance indicators, or goals: one of the big ones is to reduce the overrepresentation of M\u0101ori in the justice system. Almost every piece of legislation that\u2019s come through the House does the opposite. This is one of them, and it will exacerbate the presence of rangatahi M\u0101ori in the justice system. How can that be the justice Minister\u2019s way forward? How can that be the way forward for a justice system that wants to reduce the overrepresentation of M\u0101ori in the system? It can\u2019t be, but it is. So why? Well, I\u2019ll leave the public to work that one out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ed74ed8e2a488383bd2e28f5c8294c\u0022\u003EHon Casey Costello\u003C/span\u003E: To save their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fadef09ef044fdca8f9b2d2ad30d29f\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re not saving anyone\u2019s lives\u2014the road toll hasn\u2019t come down. OK, so, rangatahi M\u0101ori\u2014that\u2019s what we\u2019re talking about. Forty-one\u00A0percent of minor drug offences: M\u0101ori, OK\u2014and similarly for minor traffic offences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd5a110792bb4963b37e903ae981e1e6\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the lowest in a very long time. Look at the stats. The lowest per capita since the 1920s\u2014a hundred years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022848fef9c206841e8a525d405daa2527a\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: I see the ex-mayor of Wellington is talking over there. He might want to think about this\u2014he didn\u2019t do such a great job in Wellington when he was the mayor. So rangatahi M\u0101ori entered the system there\u2014many rangatahi M\u0101ori. The reason I know this is because many iwi all around the country have tried proactive programmes to counter this phenomenon. So what they do is get early licensing programmes into schools so that their kids have got licences. Then they teach them how to interact with the police when they get pulled up, because police profile rangatahi M\u0101ori; that\u2019s why they pulled up more than any other rangatahi group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad75d625e8144bfaeee2747e969a7b6\u0022\u003EHon Casey Costello\u003C/span\u003E: Garbage!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225be505d2d9014183b3b0ea446f37bfd0\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, \u201CGarbage!\u201D, she says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd94074d59be4c7fb2d370adec7a5cdf\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Read the reports!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219d99c7851944efbaa8c491898fd4629\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, no, she doesn\u2019t like reports. That\u2019s what happens. And these are the proactive steps that te iwi M\u0101ori have done to try to circumvent this little circle of delivering our kids into the justice system. Once they get in it, the number of offences quickly racks up for them, OK? It quickly racks up. That\u2019s the beginning of a long delivery line for rangatahi M\u0101ori, particularly men, into prison. The Government is happy for that\u2014they\u2019re happy to ignore it. I raise it time and time again and they ignore it time and time again. So I\u2019m putting it here for you, bluntly and point-blank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EAll the experts says that the tech doesn\u2019t work, you shouldn\u2019t do it\u2014da, da, da, da. They\u2019ve ignored all of that. And, you know, when it comes down to leaving all of these things to police discretion, well, we currently have a very serious case in te iwi M\u0101ori of a young rangatahi M\u0101ori who experienced the blunt force of police discretion and brutality and racism and everything that comes with that. Young Kaea Heta, from Hastings, had his jaw broken by police, just recently. OK, that\u2019s the excessive exercise of force, and as you commit to putting more rangatahi M\u0101ori into that system, more rangatahi M\u0101ori are going to come into contact with that discretion and the excessive force that the police report itself noted. We just can\u2019t commend it, we can\u2019t agree with it, and we can\u2019t possibly let that go through this House. So we do not commend the bill to the House, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dd8f67f214a749b9a34d8f96ce550821\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport (Drug Driving) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000048\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfee145c479042f9bc621678a3f8061b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfee145c479042f9bc621678a3f8061b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ba584f3402241458293e781d808125d\u0022\u003ESentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022612732d1052e45b79887b9a53b22e3fe\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000052\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 4 March.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a1bac005069b4e4393a23cca3e65db1d\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Sentencing Act 2002 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002280707a30988c4b4c969d32788600c01d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280707a30988c4b4c969d32788600c01d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill. When we were last debating the bill, on Tuesday, 4 March, we were debating Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 16 and the Schedule. The question, again, is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2d74aeebaa44f0784473f316d2c12ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2d74aeebaa44f0784473f316d2c12ec\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Yeah, I wondered if across the committee, there was going to be a substantive call, but I somehow doubt it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe were slowly going through the bill and I think, if I remember rightly, we had got to new clause\u00A08. I want to start talking about clause\u00A09, which is about reductions to sentencing. I had previously talked about the views of victims, but what I want to talk about now is the so-called \u201Cyouth discount\u201D. The bill, as before the committee, proposes\u2014essentially, you only get one crack at a youth discount; that you can\u2019t get a youth discount twice. Now, I can understand\u2014a little bit like the remorse discount that you can also only get once under this bill\u2014the kind of eye roll, if you like, of a judge who has someone who perhaps they\u2019ve seen before coming before them and kind of running out the same old story. But there is actually a reason for the youth discount based in science, and that is about cognitive development. The fact that young people do not have the same decision-making capabilities as people whose brain has properly matured. And I\u2019m concerned that there\u2019ll be a conflation of age with mental development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, I guess, my question for the Minister of Justice, and I\u2019ve actually got a tabled amendment on this, in respect of clause\u00A09B is: is he satisfied that a judge can look at a person who is young and say that person has cognitive impairment, perhaps fetal alcohol syndrome\u2014which is a good example where there\u2019s significant cognitive impairment\u2014or even just developmental delay; so they might be 21 years old, but, in fact, for whatever reason, their cognitive development is that of a 16-year-old? Now, is that cognitive delay able to be taken into account, or is that kind of tied up in this youth discount? And if the answer is, \u201COh, that\u2019s all part of the youth discount.\u201D, then my amendment comes into play, which would put a new subsection\u00A03 in clause\u00A09B. And that would essentially say\u2014the words I\u2019ve proposed, are: \u201Cprovided that this does not preclude the court from taking into account the psychological and cognitive development of the offender in the sentencing.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBecause the fact of the matter is that, you know, young people\u2019s cognitive development has been conclusively shown to impair good decision making. I guess the irony of the \u201Cno\u201D to two youth discounts is that you don\u2019t stop being young. You don\u2019t magically become more grown up once you\u2019re sentenced and given a youth discount; you\u2019re still suffering from the fact that your brain does not work as good as a mature brain. So my question to the Minister is: how are we going to ensure that judges are still given the ability to take into account the kind of psychological development, the cognitive development, the actual brain growth and physical growth as well as the kind of mental maturity? How are we going to be able to take those things into account when it looks like the youth discount in fact kind of sweeps that away?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI guess, the other thing about this, in terms of the discount and the youth discount, is the need for\u2014because this is about deterrence\u2014the offender to know that they have been given a once-only discount. Now, there is a general rule that you have sentencing notes, but, again, you\u2019ve got a person who might not be particularly literate or particularly well equipped. What steps will be put in place so that when they are actually sentenced, they take away something which says to them, \u201CHere you go, this is a youth discount. You only get it once.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, in many cases the courts will kind of make a mishmash decision. This requires a slicing off of youth and saying, \u201CThis is the discount for youth.\u201D Of course, the other risk is that judges won\u2019t give youth discounts on a first offence for the very reason that it\u2019s a once-only thing. So I\u2019d be interested in that, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0efdca1737146b59dc672195f1a409f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0efdca1737146b59dc672195f1a409f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, we have returned to this particular bill. Just so I can kind of keep my thought process and work through this bill systematically as well, the last time we left this bill I was talking about clause\u00A06, which is section\u00A09 amended, around aggravating factors. Also just to signal to you, as well as to the Chair, that I still haven\u2019t received a response from the Minister of Justice regarding my previous question, which is around subclause\u00A0(1)(cb), including section\u00A066(1)(b), (c), or (d), or (2) of the Crimes Act 1961 around party liability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI asked two questions at that stage\u2014just also to jog the Minister\u2019s memory. One of them was: how would this work, in reference to the Ahsin v Queen case of 2014, whereby the fact that in Aotearoa currently under the Crimes Act 1961 and particularly section\u00A066, we do not have a complete withdraw possibility when it comes to party liability, which is very clear in that Supreme Court case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second part of that would be that when we were looking at party liability as well, considering that we have removed the presumption whereby a person who is married\u2014in most cases, a woman who is married to a husband\u2014commits a crime, that they automatically get the defence of convulsion, to that effect. With that presumption being removed, there is nothing in this bill or under the Crimes Act 1961, section\u00A066, that would allow a defence for someone who has been in long-term abusive relationships and how that would be punished both under section\u00A066 as well as under this new aggravating factor. So just want to get clarity from the Minister on whether that has been taken into consideration when this has been decided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe next part I want to mention that comes with the aggravating factors is one of the two aggravating factors that has been introduced as a part of this bill. Now, this is clause\u00A06(2)(fc). Understandably, that makes a lot of sense\u2014we\u2019re putting public transport service workers in line with other service workers such as police and emergency and firefighters, etc. I would like to ask the Minister some questions around clause\u00A06(2)(fd). That is to do with when one of the following happens: when the victim is working on their own or when the victim is working in a business that was physically joined to. Now, one of the things that we did explore and did actually came through as part of submissions by others was around the fact that that is already an existing aggravating factor under section\u00A09 of the Sentencing Act. That is, from memory, 9(g), where is says \u201Cthat the victim was particularly vulnerable because of his or her age or health or because of any other factor known to the offender:\u201D, which could extend to knowing the victim was working alone or working in a business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, how would the Minister reconcile with the fact that for something like that, if both aggravating factors are being considered, that would be considered a double jeopardy or a case where a person would be trialled or be punished twice for potentially the same crime? Will the judge have a level of flexibility in that case to determine whether they will apply the aggravating factor in clause\u00A06(2)(fd) or the aggravating factor in section\u00A09G?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo those two questions: one around party liability under section\u00A066 and the other one around the new aggravating factor in clause\u00A06(2)(fd).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002234ee693e1279453b848f33cda96d744b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234ee693e1279453b848f33cda96d744b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, members, for the questions. In terms of the youth discount, the member referred to fetal alcohol syndrome and so forth, and those matters can be dealt with separately from youth. The youth discount applies to offenders aged 18 and over, and so our point of view is that they should have the potential for a discount for that youth once, not multiple times. We tend to look at it from the point of view of the victims of crime. It doesn\u2019t really sort of matter, if you\u2019re violently assaulted by somebody, what age they are\u2014you are violently assaulted. So we wanted to send a clear message that we\u2019re limiting the amount of discounts that can be applied when it comes to sentencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIn terms of party liability, my advice is that party liability is determined at the conviction stage, not in sentencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8020ede34514032ad00d33d66b97339\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8020ede34514032ad00d33d66b97339\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a call from Dr Tracey McLellan, but at this point I\u2019m just going to say I\u2019ve still got the notes from when I was in the Chair last time, and we don\u2019t want to be going over things that\u2019ve already been mentioned, so I want new material only at this point in time. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u00227f5198919faf4f499165e9e9678f3135\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f5198919faf4f499165e9e9678f3135\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, but due to the Minister of Justice\u2019s answer right there\u2014I had a different question but given the Minister\u2019s response right there\u2014it has prompted me to ask a further question about this subject\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7664ba43bb24285a24d2b5451cbf92c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d0ff9e7e35940bf92a5f4c71e50ca22\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014so I\u2019d like a little bit of indulgence and I\u2019ll try not to be too long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b32e412270e46d4b788bf21a2e6370a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289080098085b49a6b1ec545c6bef016e\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I think the concept of youth discounts as a mitigating factor when sentencing\u2014the age of a person\u2014is actually really important. It\u2019s certainly one of the topics that we\u2019ve, on this side of the Chamber, undoubtedly, received the most feedback on when people try and get their head around what it is this Government\u2019s trying to achieve. Even from a philosophical perspective, when you think about what is the purpose of the law and what is the purpose of sentencing, you\u2019ve got two very opposing\u2014and sometimes in stark contrast\u2014aims. That is, to respect the needs of the victim; as the Minister has just said, if you\u2019re assaulted by someone, regardless of their age, you still feel the need to have that vindication through a legal process. But the other purpose of the law and justice and sentencing is to prevent stuff from happening in the future, to prevent it from feeding into a cycle by taking all the opportunities that you have available to you to try and essentially knock that on the head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAs my colleague the Hon Dr Duncan Webb said, the concept of youth and maturation and development is actually really, really important. I understand that it doesn\u2019t necessarily matter to the person who has a right to feel that they\u2019ve received justice via a sentence or a harsh sentence on the person that perpetrated that crime against them, but it is something that as a society we should be rightly invested in because for no other reason than if we don\u2019t get this right, then we do create a cycle of just more and more offending, which by definition creates more and more victims of the same crimes that we\u2019re trying to lessen the impact on people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo the question I had specifically for the Minister was something that was raised when we think about maybe or maybe not judges choosing to use the youth factor as a mitigating factor in sentencing. They may not choose to do it in the first instance, given that they know it\u2019s only a one-off\u2014an arbitrarily decided one-off according to this bill, regardless of the science and the sensibilities around that. So has the Minister or has his team looked at what those unintended consequences could be in those circumstances? Because nipping something in the bud at a young person\u2019s first appearance and therefore opportunity to provide some sort of corrective direction via a sentence\u2014if that\u2019s not taken on board and the judge says, \u201CWell, actually, I\u2019ll keep that up the sleeve because there\u2019s a chance that this person may be back before this court in the next year or two and we want to be able to use that factor.\u201D, what sort of work has been done on looking on that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAlso, if we are to consider this strictly\u2014and it\u2019s a long bow\u2014as a signal and as a deterrent, even though we know that most people that commit crimes don\u2019t fully cognitively go into it, weighing up all the consequences of getting caught etc., etc., it\u2019s about addressing the drivers of crime and making a fair and just system so that people don\u2019t feel it\u2019s overly punitive and therefore rebel against the very society that we\u2019re hoping them to be part of. But if we consider this as being a signal and a deterrent I just feel like there\u2019s been very scant information to date about weighing up with metrics and analyses what those impacts could be. I\u2019m sure that the Minister would have gone into more detail and would be privy, probably, to more of that information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI just think it\u2019s really important, given that this is the stage that this bill is at the Chamber today; that we have an opportunity just to hear a little bit more about this really, really important issue, before we move on. And I understand that we will move on but, as I said, lots of people have provided feedback about this. This is the one thing in this bill that really seems to exercise people because for most humans and for most people therefore but go anybody; we were all young, we all know that silly things can happen, we all know that youth and the maturation of the brain, and the neurocognitive development of people is a real thing, and we just want to know that this Government has taken that into account, rather than potentially making things worse in the years to come because they haven\u2019t sufficiently taken it into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2073bdd548b403797bd39a38f3590ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2073bdd548b403797bd39a38f3590ab\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226333403ca41843f4b53f5d1516c2a881\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226333403ca41843f4b53f5d1516c2a881\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll take a call from the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, but I feel that we have had a fair proportion\u2014not this morning but over time, on this\u2014and I\u2019m ticking off the questions as they\u2019ve been answered. So I\u2019ll give Dr Webb a chance to ask some more relevant questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022642f8fb0cf1040b98b906a31895d6b0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022642f8fb0cf1040b98b906a31895d6b0d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E OK, well\u2014and I\u2019m aware that my colleague Ginny Andersen hasn\u2019t had a call today or indeed a great number of calls on this previous\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e932a9e02d384d13bbced41537fb9bac\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just on that point, it makes it difficult when we traverse a committee of the whole House stage over two sitting blocks where we have traversed a lot of conversations, and people who then come into the committee now are sort of in a phase where we\u2019ve got to be careful not to relitigate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b145fdd739f44239a22a28d2976b3d7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: I actually appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d85ca6fc17e64cfdb044929b1609ed36\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Great. And so can I ask the Clerk to start Dr Webb\u2019s questions again so that I give you the maximum amount of questions that you can have in this call. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f418a02dacca4b049262a18a6fe7b742\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOne of the things I\u2019m interested in is the question of prosecutorial conduct, because there can be situations where prosecutors either, in the worst cases, are intentionally late or obstruct the provision of evidence; or, much more likely, unintentionally do that. One of the problems with cap reductions is it reduces the ability to respond to that kind of misconduct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EA tabled amendment I haven\u2019t talked about yet is in respect of new section\u00A09G and it\u2019s really, again, about late pleas. Where there is a late plea\u2014for example, to give you the most concrete kind of example: the police don\u2019t provide a critical document which is incriminating and, perhaps entirely without fault, a witness comes forward at the last minute and says, \u201CLook, I\u2019ve got this document and it is conclusive.\u201D So the plea is essentially a \u201Csteps of the court\u201D plea. Now, that is not the defendant\u2019s fault. The defendant and their legal counsel assessed the matter on the basis of the disclosure that was given to them. Now, I accept that the victim has not had the benefit of an early plea\u2014kind of the first opportunity\u2014but I guess the point is this: the first real opportunity, the first informed opportunity, and the first opportunity where the police had presented all of the evidence to be put in court is on the doorstep of the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy proposed tabled amendment would add to section\u00A09G a subsection\u00A0(5) that would read, provided that where any late plea \u201Ccan be attributed in whole, or part to failures or misconduct\u201D\u2014and I think failures is important\u2014\u201Cof the prosecutor or the prosecuting authority, then the judge may impose such maximum reduction as he or she considers appropriate in all of the circumstances not exceeding 25\u00A0percent.\u201D I mean, I don\u2019t like that 25\u00A0percent, but that\u2019s the maximum cap this legislation imposes. I\u2019m particularly interested in how we factor in these other cases where the lateness of the plea is due to other circumstances. Of course, I\u2019ve previously spoken to extremely complex legal cases\u2014a fraud case where whether something is a fraud or not can be very, very hard to understand. So I\u2019m interested in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI guess this relates also to the whole question of manifest injustice, because I think the Minister of Justice, when I\u2019ve raised a different issue, has kind of bashed it away with, \u201COh, yes, but manifest injustice sorts that out.\u201D But manifest injustice is actually\u2014you know, manifest injustice is injustice which is really bad. You can have injustice which apparently is not manifest, and my point is with a late plea due to prosecutorial misconduct, that is unjust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, to say that \u201CIf it\u2019s a bit unjust, we\u2019ll get away with it\u201D is really bad legislative process. So how are we going to make sure that the sentence imposed on an offender who\u2019s given documents at the last minute is not unjust? And will you adopt that tabled amendment which would make sure that prosecutorial misconduct can be taken into account to get a just outcome?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022deddb2c982f34523a13b4579fdce1c41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022deddb2c982f34523a13b4579fdce1c41\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014yes, that was me. Awesome to take just a short call on this, and I don\u2019t want to repeat what anybody else has\u2014taking your point in regard to that. But, Minister Goldsmith, if you can just\u2014the mitigating factors in Part 1 of this particular bill. I\u2019m fathomed, because this is exactly what the cultural reports did for M\u0101ori in the system, and we know that M\u0101ori are overrepresented in the justice system. We know that we make up 50\u00A0percent of the male prison population, 67\u00A0percent of the female prison population. We\u2019re five times more likely to be sentenced than P\u0101keh\u0101 for the same crime. So the mitigating circumstances for M\u0101ori families must be taken into consideration, and I just want to take into consideration as to why the cultural reports were declined by this particular Government, in this particular Parliament\u2014absolutely fathoms me, because it did the same thing, but what it did allow was for lawyers and for judges to make their decisions when it comes to sentencing, based on those cultural reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EI see this as similar but not the same, right\u2014but not the same. What this tells me is that mitigating circumstances for non-M\u0101ori will be a lot easier because there\u2019s no focus on those particular things. We know that M\u0101ori youth also have higher\u2014and are more disproportionately targeted in that particular phase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EI just want to pick up on what Dr Duncan talked about not so long ago: the mitigating factors as to why our youth are in that particular predicament in the first place. I look at the complex, interrelated challenges that many of our rangatahi face. Across the Youth Court population, there are higher rates of neurodisabilities, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, traumatic brain injury, dyslexia, autism spectrum disorder, exposure to family violence, dislocation from schooling, and the history of trauma, and what are these mitigating factors\u2014consider any of those things when sentencing is applied to young M\u0101ori, who will then make up the 50\u00A0percent of the male prison population or the 67\u00A0percent of the female prison population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ESo does this bill, in Part 1, ease the pain of M\u0101ori making up that particular amount in terms of the population incarcerated by the justice system? Those are the questions I have. Does this bill ease the pain for M\u0101ori in those\u00A0percentages, and does it consider what the cultural reports were there to ensure, which I think you\u2019re trying to do here but it actually doesn\u2019t go that far to ensure that those cultural reports\u2014because that\u2019s the cultural part of it, right? Yes, there are mitigating factors in terms of some of the disabilities that maybe some of these kids and some of their parents and some of their adults have, but what it doesn\u2019t do is actually look at the cultural background, the intergenerational trauma and all those types of things that a cultural report would\u2019ve done. Could you answer those, please, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f205fc66767c42c895560bd1f10a2d56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f205fc66767c42c895560bd1f10a2d56\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E In response to the previous speaker, Rawiri Waititi, it is my hope that this bill will ease the pain, particularly for M\u0101ori victims of crime. Yes, M\u0101ori are overrepresented in the prison population. They are also overrepresented amongst the victims of crime and have a real interest in seeing that justice is done and that part of the justice response is real consequences for crime. Of course, the sentencing framework is only one part of the justice response, and, yes, we\u2019ve got a real focus on rehabilitation and a real focus on dealing with those drivers of crime that the member referred to, like not being in school. So we\u2019ve got a real focus on truancy to help deal with some of those drivers of crime at the same time. So absolutely that is the desire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIn terms of the cultural reports, what this Government did was stop the cottage industry that developed around the writing of those reports but the Sentencing Act still, obviously, provides the opportunity for the background of the offender to be taken into account. What this bill does is put a limit on the total discounts that can be applied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EFinally, in relation to Mr Duncan Webb\u2019s references around prosecutorial misconduct, that is excluded from the 40\u00A0percent cap as it\u2019s not a personal factor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u00222dbdc0b9b174414fb163c89709d56d28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dbdc0b9b174414fb163c89709d56d28\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022df8d41fe06974b7785ccecd75942a95e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d68e988ed53f47a0b7a100f400a15149\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d68e988ed53f47a0b7a100f400a15149\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Now we have quite a number of votes to be taken on Part\u00A01, so I\u2019m just going to give the Clerk the opportunity, as she\u2019s just arrived, to get her paperwork in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s amendments to Amendment Paper 244 set out on Amendment Paper 250 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002240754fbb8dfa4693ae8229cad86397d8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f81ab5c1127e42cd84395fc6b5d4a1c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f81ab5c1127e42cd84395fc6b5d4a1c2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s amendments to Amendment Paper 244 set out on Amendment Paper 253 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e89241f76fa0494eab616a7236a3e4f7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002288fa824707e2479cae5d01d7c42027fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288fa824707e2479cae5d01d7c42027fb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 244 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220361d0960c544fd29d2b22237a8fa54f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228362261b72574cb2b3b2094df0cfb3d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228362261b72574cb2b3b2094df0cfb3d7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A05 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d3184d0d29694d768ed0525066708fb6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022426b4a0129904f56a4e0ccf9bc8b167c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022426b4a0129904f56a4e0ccf9bc8b167c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A05, inserting two new subparagraphs into new section\u00A08(f) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d3eacd0be25544ddb18c72e537f4e7af\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f401615dcacc4a319acf3c8a8bd2aefa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f401615dcacc4a319acf3c8a8bd2aefa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A05A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002280e042c277fa404faedd486c5546861f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002220e10920b46946eda96a2d23a017e940\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220e10920b46946eda96a2d23a017e940\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s amendments to clauses 5A and 7 set out on Amendment Paper 249 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022354aab574281484eb901385127591732\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220f9b4bfd037c45e4959a410dcfa084f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f9b4bfd037c45e4959a410dcfa084f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new clause\u00A05B and, in clause\u00A07, to delete new sections 9C, 9L, and 9P be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227306b6e5d3cc43b4a96a9a8d3a3d22a6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5a494cca8df4202809fc2206aa50ea6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5a494cca8df4202809fc2206aa50ea6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s amendment to delete clause\u00A06(1) set out on Amendment Paper 252 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b65de8ff01104b28b04049742b1495ba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221dee6467be2846eb8aabf35215282e4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dee6467be2846eb8aabf35215282e4b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A06, deleting new paragraph (cb) in section\u00A09(1), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fb3c0bd6040d45edadf3c0b5d63b036a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228edc9f11bcb74f61aa6c8838d1cb78d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228edc9f11bcb74f61aa6c8838d1cb78d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s amendments to clause\u00A06, inserting paragraph (cd) into new section\u00A09(1) and deleting the crossheading above clause\u00A06(1), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224d57dc92cae442cb9f9c4aa152b050c5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002224358cf287e34312a2ef4aa3fbb3bb95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224358cf287e34312a2ef4aa3fbb3bb95\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A06, deleting new paragraph (fd) in section\u00A09(1), is ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause\u00A06(2B) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022de50894254e5450c935b6d86381ed52b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ceb13dbc203c4c9f9b529925ea5e1fa0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ceb13dbc203c4c9f9b529925ea5e1fa0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Tracey McLellan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A07, inserting subsection\u00A0(2A) into new section\u00A09B, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227d8437a1cac047d29b9e457d7a7a5f29\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae962bdadc6d4322a9033d0197d7b600\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae962bdadc6d4322a9033d0197d7b600\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A07, new section\u00A09E, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221da561342040491e9b947045dc979df2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1c058db13a5400d8193a1b08a57cfcc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1c058db13a5400d8193a1b08a57cfcc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A07, deleting new sections 9EA and 9NA, is ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A07, inserting subsection\u00A0(3) into new section\u00A09EA, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222d14ea51a489413eb9b1b8bd41c2dfc8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002217f06f42e1bc4a169781c1e10a32d633\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217f06f42e1bc4a169781c1e10a32d633\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendments to clause\u00A07, deleting new sections 9G, 9H, and 9I, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d4b1a84d1173417c9110afed4421cbb9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002216e1f73b45aa472087438af5863e6e79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216e1f73b45aa472087438af5863e6e79\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A07, inserting subsection\u00A0(1A) into new section\u00A09G, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a15e9651611948a8b21fcc785215ba2f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9f2f8535ad04a738ae0828850aae9e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9f2f8535ad04a738ae0828850aae9e0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A07, inserting subsection\u00A0(1B) into new section\u00A09G, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227256498226b24d5882ad402e3082b772\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002239c217e5b9bf4a9c9f724086909574f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239c217e5b9bf4a9c9f724086909574f6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A07, inserting subsection\u00A0(1C) into new section\u00A09G be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a9aa1d75cf824fe899613e54f8c4f826\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a25a9b93e3eb4ce6975e9b252363ca47\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s amendment to clause\u00A08 set out on Amendment Paper 245 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e241be37bdb442adadb2dd6239bc55fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e241be37bdb442adadb2dd6239bc55fd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226742b80769494a368af0cfff0cfb3bfd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Ethe Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A08 replacing subsection\u00A0(4) in new section\u00A018 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229d50b7c4c1ac4be8a77d1e7b726ef8a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d50b7c4c1ac4be8a77d1e7b726ef8a3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002220c155e595774baebd873e81866daaa5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendments to clause\u00A010 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f173ce889d1e4c93b444aa12b3a3536f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f173ce889d1e4c93b444aa12b3a3536f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d7c47ba25410479ab48550b2804c138c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E: The question is that Helen White\u2019s tabled amendments to clause\u00A010, new section\u00A080GA, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228179a0c1bf964735a59a16482e517419\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228179a0c1bf964735a59a16482e517419\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002253234cca9f6e4898b06000c92998a918\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Ethat the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A010 inserting paragraph (d) into new section\u00A080GA(3) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226e951fd630f147199040bf7f23952a73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e951fd630f147199040bf7f23952a73\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227aad6a688f1f4c699ac8cd3a3135362e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Ehat the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A010 deleting subsection\u00A0(4) in new section\u00A080GA be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee6559e032a44d59b1d6ab24c55ccdc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee6559e032a44d59b1d6ab24c55ccdc6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002206abd23d6ab34427bd57f4ea5d8f8aa1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Ethat the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A011 replacing paragraph (d) in new section\u00A080ZLA be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed5aa4286e4649b7babadef58ea1d424\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed5aa4286e4649b7babadef58ea1d424\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b409002b75df4329b5beeeb749d7e114\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Ethat the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A011 inserting paragraph (e) into new section\u00A080ZLA be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002248f272bd9498436bb5d9021b2ba7cdf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248f272bd9498436bb5d9021b2ba7cdf7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022956c77cbd3444c26b42c3ed6e9519793\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s amendment to insert new clause\u00A011A set out on Amendment Paper 251 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f75a0fc215a34b6db5d7f71e6722d7ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f75a0fc215a34b6db5d7f71e6722d7ae\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224b2efb86c8cd4a3cbd6bf290f7014a7c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Ethe Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A013 inserting subsection\u00A0(2B) into section\u00A0106 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A013 inserting subsection\u00A0(2B) into section\u00A0106 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002244f15af905014c14b513af39e7f9162d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244f15af905014c14b513af39e7f9162d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002289b4ad0da0094995ba9e6b0b4380de3c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7e075850861476fb64cd1f281df5880\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendment to Family Court Rules 2002\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223d8009cc05074bac91c12dae985a04ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d8009cc05074bac91c12dae985a04ed\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 17 and 18, \u201CAmendment to Family Court Rules 2002\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022b364885c2c8e4e27bf9d22b340979d5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b364885c2c8e4e27bf9d22b340979d5e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do have some questions about this, and it may seem relatively technical, with clause\u00A018 making what looks like a minor amendment to delegated legislation, namely the Family Court rules. It ties in with section\u00A0123B of the Sentencing Act, and that provision in the Sentencing Act 2002 essentially says that if an offender is convicted of a family violence offence and there is not currently in force a protection order, then the court may order a protection order. That makes perfect sense, but this actually does something quite significant in conjunction with clause\u00A014 of the bill. What it does is it extends that power to people who are not convicted of an offence, so the court can put in place a protection order, under this rule change, where the person is either convicted of an offence or has been discharged without conviction for an offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, don\u2019t get me wrong\u2014there\u2019s a real place for protection orders in the absence of conviction but where violence is proven, but where there\u2019s a discharge without conviction, that discharge may occur for any number of reasons. I\u2019m wondering, Minister, whether this is an acknowledgment that because of these ridiculous sentencing rules that you\u2019re putting in place, judges are going to have to default to discharges without conviction because they\u2019ve got a choice between a sentence that is entirely unfair and providing a discharge without conviction. And that\u2019s a really problematic dilemma for them to be in, because if we\u2019ve got a victim of family violence, we shouldn\u2019t be giving powers to the court to make what are, in a sense, punitive orders where there is a discharge without conviction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo I have real concerns that you have caused, essentially, a distortion in the law here by saying, \u201CYou might get a discharge without conviction but we\u2019re still going to impose an order on you even though you have not been found guilty of that offence\u201D, and the underlying policy reason is that you know that discharges without conviction are going to rise, and there will be situations where under the current law people wouldn\u2019t get a discharge without conviction but in considering a discharge without conviction, the job of the judge, under the Act, is to actually determine whether a conviction would be disproportionately severe. And because you\u2019ve just turned up the temperature on all of these sentences, it\u2019s much more likely that it will be disproportionately severe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo you\u2019ve got yourself into a pickle because the discharge without conviction will still be there but we know, in fact, that the offence occurred. It\u2019s only the sentence that the judge will be compelled on conviction to impose, which makes it entirely disproportionate to enter that conviction. So we\u2019ve got a real dilemma, and in fact this is the kind of thing that\u2019s going to happen. People are going to be less safe in this kind of situation because of these discharges without conviction. And you\u2019ve now got a situation where you\u2019ve got orders which should follow conviction now following from discharges without conviction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m aware that a discharge without conviction usually requires the offender to accept responsibility for the offending but it is the opposite of a finding of guilt. It\u2019s a finding that says the court is not interested in intervening here. For whatever wider policy and justice reasons, it is going to discharge this matter. It is going to send it away. It\u2019s saying it\u2019s, \u201Cnot going to make a finding adverse to you. Nor are we going to find you not guilty. We\u2019re simply going to discharge you and bring this matter to an end because in terms of wider policy issues and the justice of this particular case, that\u2019s the right thing to do.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo you\u2019ve got yourself into a right bind here because that\u2019s going to happen a lot and I\u2019m wondering if that\u2019s really why you\u2019ve done this protection orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022325a6560ba74400dbf8569176bbf2359\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022325a6560ba74400dbf8569176bbf2359\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you for the wide speculation by the previous member, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, on the potential elements of this. This is quite a very tightly detailed piece of the legislation. In terms of protection order, it is important that if a judge considers the conduct warrants a protection order, that they can grant one. That\u2019s what this clause\u00A0refers to. That prevents victims having to make a separate application for a protection order and saves court time, which is better for the victims of crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00222e4f6c8d04754c1dafcc548e19fde6db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e4f6c8d04754c1dafcc548e19fde6db\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to follow up on what the Minister of Justice has just said. I do want to check in terms of the policy intent behind clause\u00A018 of Part 2, because, understandably, this has victims of family crime as the focus here. But I do want to specify that section\u00A0106 of the Sentencing Act specifically says that when you\u2019re looking at discharge without conviction, it amounts to an acquittal, which then begs the question: if we are giving protection orders to people but without any sort of subsequent guidance, what advice has the Minister received in terms of whether this is something that is actually beneficial to victims of family crime? Because one of the things that we do see when it comes to victims of family crime is the fact that, often, if it is not dealt with carefully in terms of conversations with, or education of, the offender, we do actually see that things could possibly get worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI get what the Minister is saying\u2014that he doesn\u2019t mean that the victim needs to make a separate application for protection order. But I wondered if what we\u2019re doing here is very much the last resort, bottom-of-the-cliff kind of approach, whereas what we\u2019re not seeing here is what is actually beneficial for the victims and what are the tools that allow an offender, in those circumstances, to be aware and to be able to change their actions or change their perspective because of the fact that there is a guidance, a kind of an education, following on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo my question is sort of around the policy intent of this. Again, going through the department report, this is not an area that was discussed in detail, but like the previous speaker, the Hon Duncan Webb, said, it is reasonably significant, because when you are acquitted of a crime, you are supposed to be able to have no potential punishment or repercussions as a result. And there are other factors that will intervene from a New Zealand Bill of Rights Act perspective as well, which also wasn\u2019t something that was explored in the Attorney-General\u2019s report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo I just want to get some clarity around: if this was supposed to provide support and be beneficial to the victim, what is the evidential basis for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef9f7f7d932e4c7fa5c1e40e1f754af6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef9f7f7d932e4c7fa5c1e40e1f754af6\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. So the way I understand this is that for a section\u00A0106 discharge without conviction, that means that in instances where there was no consequential sentencing or conviction on the record, you would still be able to have a protection order in place if the court thought so. And I would assume\u2014and the Minister of Justice might want to clarify this because it leads into my question\u2014that the judge would then be determining, on the facts before them, when that would apply in terms of a section\u00A0106 discharge. So if the Minister could just give us an indication, because the whole kind of purpose of this bill appears to be to limit or curtail judicial discretion, so I\u2019m just interested to understand why in this particular area he\u2019s OK with judicial discretion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBecause the proposed amendments in the Act and the combination of the implementation of three strikes, which has already been put in place, represents a really significant shift in the willingness of limiting judicial discretion and, effectively, restricting judges and having a prescriptive sentencing framework that makes sentencing less efficient. So I\u2019m interested to note why there\u2019s this carve out here for section\u00A0106, \u201CDischarge without conviction\u201D, when the entire kind of ambit, the purpose, of the bill is to strip away the discretion of judges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to point out\u2014I think it\u2019s important, and even the regulatory impact statement notes this\u2014the fundamental problem with this approach is it limits the judge\u2019s ability to consider the circumstances particular to the case and to deliver an individualised sentence. Conversely, it really could be argued that a far more prescriptive approach to sentencing might have some benefits\u2014and I\u2019m sure he\u2019ll argue it\u2014but how does he map out section\u00A0106 discharges differently to the rest of the bill, which puts significant limitations on judicial discretion? He\u2019s been picked up by the New Zealand Bill of Rights vet in saying that the existing framework has got real issues for when the judges are having the ability to look at what is before them to make an appropriate sentencing and a determination based on the facts before them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo in a nutshell, my question is: what\u2019s good for the goose should be good for the gander; why is the Minister saying that it\u2019s fine to take power away from judges in one part of the bill, but in this part of the bill you\u2019re saying they\u2019re able to say, \u201COh, you still get a protection order in place even if you\u2019ve had a 106 discharge.\u201D? We heard\u2014at the Justice Committee, stakeholders quite clearly advised that limitations on judicial discretion have unintended consequences, and these risks do include legal challenges on procedural grounds for breaches of the New Zealand Bill of Rights. A prescriptive approach can drive significant court delays\u2014and we know the Family Court which this would apply to in this provision, under clause\u00A018 of Part\u00A02, has already got significant delays in the system. So they have complex and big problems long term, and those delays\u2014we know\u2014plague our justice system. Officials have made it clear that they consider it important that judicial discretion is maintained right across the various amendments in the bill, so it is unclear why this this part in Part\u00A02, clause\u00A018, rule 431B is different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EUnder this bill, the changes proposed, if implemented, have a really big impact on the ability of judges to weigh up the information before them, take into consideration the victim, the family, what\u2019s happening in these situations, and to be able to use the breadth of their knowledge and understanding of the law to make sure that there\u2019s an outcome that keeps communities safe, that reduces the chances of reoffending, and also gives fairness before the law. So I\u2019m really interested to note why the Minister feels so strongly about curtailing judicial discretion, yet here the Part 2 of the bill there is a specific\u2014it appears to be a carve-out for a section\u00A0106 discharge without conviction still being able to have a protection order in place. In this instance, that would be a discretion of the judge to determine when that would apply. So where is it OK for a judge to have some independent consideration and when is it not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00224d362882db7641978ae937fcb3438409\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d362882db7641978ae937fcb3438409\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just respond briefly. This legislation doesn\u2019t change the threshold for the granting of protection orders, and so we\u2019re not dealing with that. All it does is it stops the need for a separate hearing on matters. So that prevents victims having to have a separate application, which saves court time, which I think the member just said she was concerned about\u2014and that is the purpose of this whole bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u0022694fa902e4c04e37a0b0160080fd2385\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022694fa902e4c04e37a0b0160080fd2385\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002214b773cca45041968bc6ce59fd190961\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c32c97c44db847b685878f6043f96feb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022593148e93bad44669f2decb4d26f8b43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022593148e93bad44669f2decb4d26f8b43\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Tracey McLellan\u2019s tabled amendment to the Schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226c717779d1624e1abf855ebec0dcee86\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbe7f85e6a6d44a6918f55ad6aa94082\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbe7f85e6a6d44a6918f55ad6aa94082\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendments to the Schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221e71df4d03d9475f93129041d05d4842\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00225df8f101920a442d906b433289fd67db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225df8f101920a442d906b433289fd67db\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment to the Schedule inserting new clause\u00A024A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222119a89d7b05469aa183ceffd1002a5f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022274c3be0c4d14f5f89331145d4aa7c00\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002262e595a5829148279d74f1be1b87ce97\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022feafbf9f73964550b37bc60331eb4ceb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022feafbf9f73964550b37bc60331eb4ceb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate, clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002246cc0541c4364b7186e62053353666ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246cc0541c4364b7186e62053353666ce\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I wanted to talk, first, about the title. Of course, the idea of the title is that it captures and gives good indication of the content of the bill. There\u2019s one word in there that really shouldn\u2019t be in there, and that\u2019s \u201CReform\u201D, because what a reform does is it changes things for the better, and, Minister, you have changed things for the worse. I\u2019m not sure what the opposite of \u201CReform\u201D is. Perhaps \u201CRetrograde\u201D or some such word would be appropriate, but this, certainly, is not a reform bill. We have not reformed sentencing law. What we have done here is we have, essentially, made it substantially worse by reducing\u2014the centrepiece of this bill, across all of its provisions, is to reduce the discretion of the court to impose a sentence which is fair to both the victims and to offenders and answers to the community\u2019s demands in terms of its reprobation, its signalling of the unacceptability of the conduct in question. That\u2019s why I\u2019ve suggested that we should, as in my amendment, just call it the \u201CIncreased Sentences Amendment Bill\u201D, because that\u2019s all it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aa55f46fc164b109cbd490277e65896\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Reformity for victims. Reformity for people in South Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b12e2d700274c6cae6e58990bfa5afc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s just \u201CWhat should we do about crime and justice? Increase sentences.\u201D We can hear people harping away, saying that\u2019s a good thing, but the fact of the matter is that all of the work done, so-called work done, in law and order is having no effect. Violent offending is up, and the gangs are doing a thriving trade in meth. And this kind of thing is having no effect. It\u2019s taking us backward. It\u2019s a retrograde, not a reform, bill, and we should call it what it is: the \u201CIncreased Sentences for No Particular Purpose Whatsoever Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAs we come to the concluding stages of this bill, it surprises me that you\u2019ve got a bill that you\u2019ve had the audacity to call a reform bill when all of the advice that you\u2019ve got from your officials is \u201CDon\u2019t do it\u201D. The Chief Science Advisor has said it doesn\u2019t work; it doesn\u2019t reduce crime and, in fact, has the opposite effect, because if you\u2019re going to impose penalties which are excessive\u2014and by your own pen, you\u2019ve agreed that, because you\u2019ve only said that there\u2019s an out if it\u2019s manifestly excessive; you\u2019re quite happy with excessive penalties. If I recall rightly, in this Chamber, you actually said words to the effect of, when asked at question time, \u201CThat\u2019s the point.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAnd so here we are. We\u2019ve got a \u201CMinister of Injustice\u201D, a Minister who is, in fact, intentionally imposing sentences which he knows are excessive. So call it what it is; it\u2019s a rubbish bill. Call it a \u201CSentencing (Increased Sentences) Amendment Bill\u201D, but don\u2019t call it a reform bill, because it\u2019s not reforming anything. It\u2019s taking New Zealand backwards. The short-term and long-term effect will be more people in our prisons, which is a Petri dish for crime and criminal behaviour and gang membership. Maybe you should call it the \u201CSentencing (Helping Gangs Recruit New Members) Bill\u201D, because that\u2019s effectively what you\u2019re doing. We will pay the price for this for many years to come. It\u2019s ridiculous to call it the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill because it\u2019s not; it\u2019s doing the opposite. It\u2019s taking us back decades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhen we look back, decades into the future, at the harm that this will be doing through tying the hands of judges so that they can\u2019t do the best for New Zealand in the long term, using the skills and expertise that they have, it\u2019s a sad day for New Zealand law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002201dfdcb9356f41f3b1fc7cf2d0e1c478\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201dfdcb9356f41f3b1fc7cf2d0e1c478\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to start by going to clause\u00A02, \u201CCommencement\u201D, which says, \u201CThis Act comes into force 3 months after Royal assent.\u201D I want to check first with the Minister of Justice whether the Minister would consider my amendment that would change \u201C3 months\u201D to \u201C6 months\u201D, which is in line with other bills that we introduce of a similar nature\u2014for example, the review of the three-strikes legislation. The rationale for that is mainly the fact that in Schedule 1\u2014very similar to when we discussed the three-strikes legislation\u2014in subclause\u00A0(1), what we\u2019re seeing here is a retrospective penalty, and, in this case, it is a retrospective penalty for young people, because, in fact, what you are telling them is that if they have a previous criminal conviction, it means that that would stand and the youth mitigating factor would not apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThat is a retrospective penalty, and there has been no part of the discussion that we\u2019ve had in this committee stage that has given us any reassurance that either the court or the Minister has had any advice on how they\u2019re going to be able to reach out within the three-month period to those young people who will be told \u201CBy the way, if you offend again, you are not going to be entitled to the youth mitigating factor.\u201D That is not being made very clear, so I think that if we are looking at moving it from \u201C3 months\u201D to \u201C6 months\u201D, then it might actually, possibly, give the system just a little bit of extra time for them to contact those people, or even find out who they are, as opposed to saying, when they offend again, \u201CBy the way, sorry, you\u2019re no longer eligible.\u201D I think that is a very cruel way of dealing with and a very cruel way of looking at the young people who do offend in our criminal justice system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut going on to the title of this bill, I wholeheartedly agree with the previous speaker the Hon Dr Duncan Webb in his analysis that this is not a reform. There are many other words that start with the prefix \u201Cre\u201D that we should be using. I think that \u201Cretrograde\u201D is a good one. \u201CRetrospective\u201D is another good one. \u201CRepugnant\u201D, possibly\u2014because this is what this bill does. This bill, against all the advice from the officials, is not going to actually help reduce our crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIt is fearmongering and virtue signalling\u2014and, by the way, I would like the Minister to consider that particular amendment to the title. It is a virtue-signalling and fearmongering tactic, and it does not work. We have seen that it does not work. Globally speaking, from an OECD perspective, we, in Aotearoa, have one of the highest incarceration rates in the OECD countries. We have seen punishment and further punishment in the US criminal justice system, but that has not brought down their crime rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThis particular bill, in terms of the title, is fundamentally against the intention and purpose of this bill. Just on a serious note, I would agree that maybe the Minister should consider something that actually speaks more to the bill itself, which is on one of my amendments, which is the \u201CSentencing (Discount Path and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u201D, because, essentially, this is not about a reform. What we\u2019re saying is we are putting in a cap of 40\u00A0percent as part of the mitigating factor of discount when we\u2019re looking at sentencing. That was the crux of this bill, and, again, that also goes against all of the advice that we received as part of the select committee process, that goes against the advice that we have heard here in the committee of the whole House, and that goes against the advice of the submitters that we have seen, whether they were lawyers, whether they were from the Law Society, or whether they were from Community Law. So I think\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7a5e849af7b40328fe34cbfe82d3c4e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chairperson. The member across is walking around and yelling, and it\u2019s well out of the Standing Orders to leave your seat and heckle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f54c8c0c53043ff8c7c47b77ab51aa5\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right\u2014sorry, my apologies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac409662852a48a0b5febbd08d149b55\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, if the member could be seated, that would be appreciated. Please continue, Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fddfa8c320840f6854cbe2398ef0361\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. So, for me, I would like to see if the Minister would consider making an amendment to the commencement date from \u201C3 months\u201D to \u201C6 months\u201D to give more time to actually let young people know that there is going to be a retrospective penalty coming their way. I would ask if the Minister would also consider, on a more serious note, I guess, my amendment to the title that is more true to what the bill is about\u2014if that is something that the Minister would consider. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002293424a3a4236449ab873a91f2389ae52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293424a3a4236449ab873a91f2389ae52\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Just briefly in response to the member Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s question about if I considered changing the commencement from three months to six months: yes, I have considered it, and I\u2019m not going to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIn response to the changes of the names, I think they\u2019re all just cheap, political shots and I won\u2019t be responding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022018e2f874fc4443eb1c10ab1f88ea585\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022018e2f874fc4443eb1c10ab1f88ea585\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019d just like to speak in support of the amendment that is being discussed presently, put forward by Lawrence Xu-Nan in terms of extending that commencement date from three to six months, and specifically in relation to the additional training of the judiciary for such a substantive change to the way that our sentencing will occur. I note that the Minister of Justice has just responded by stating he did give consideration to extending the commencement date of this particular piece of legislation but he did not furnish it with any further information as to what he weighed up and how he arrived at his decision not to extend that period. For such a substantive change in terms of how judges will now be operating, once this legislation comes into action, there would need to be significant changes in the way that judges are trained in terms of enabling them sufficient time to be able to provide the warnings, to be able to notify those in front of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI would like to understand from the Minister exactly how he\u2019s arrived at not extending this to a significant period, given the extensive change this will make to how judges now operate and how it curtails judicial discretion. There will no doubt be instances coming if this is just steamrollered through and put forward in a three-month period. I think it is incumbent upon the Minister to explain what due process has been undertaken through the Ministry of Justice and also through working closely with the judiciary, to understand if they are fully on board with the changes that have been pushed through with this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFrom my understanding and experience, both from working within the Ministry of Justice and also being a Minister, changes like this require a significant change programme in order to have the reassurance that legislation will be able to be rolled out and enforced in a way that makes sure that that it\u2019s working properly, as intended by this House when passing legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe know that in the regulatory impact statement there have been significant concerns raised by officials right through this process, including the select committee process, that it actually impedes judicial discretion and stops judges doing the very job that they are put in there to do. So I think there needs to be some considerable consideration about whether this can be effectively implemented in just a three-month period. There seems to be a recurring theme with this Government that we have officials fronting up at the Justice Committee saying that longer is required to effectively implement legislation and make sure it has the intended consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo there are some quite big concerns at the rate of things being done, simply as a tick-box exercise to demonstrate that this Government has done what it said it would without actually really looking at the detail of how it will be implemented in practice. So I think it is incumbent upon the Minister to give this committee a level of reassurance that there has been a work programme developed, that there has been a level of engagement with the judiciary, and that there is an ongoing understanding of how this legislation will in fact operate in courtrooms once it becomes law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EStakeholders quite clearly advised the Justice Committee that the limitations on judicial discretion would potentially have unintended consequences. I think it is important that the Minister at least demonstrates to this committee that he is aware of what the potential unintended consequences are of this bill and how he has taken those into consideration when engaging with the judiciary, and whether or not he is fully confident that a three-month implementation period is sufficient to make sure that this bill will actually do what he hopes it will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022260305328130451f82fc0ff17a70411a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022260305328130451f82fc0ff17a70411a\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fbd25dd2dc29432b90c10292b2c44ac5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00221158ecac85ff49159beddbf5b66c2c51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221158ecac85ff49159beddbf5b66c2c51\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Tracey McLellan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A01 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227f304ba25cd74f15bca888159717c47a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb6de6f708d5477ba4d1b32099579c63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb6de6f708d5477ba4d1b32099579c63\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A01, replacing \u201CSentencing (Reform) Act\u201D with \u201CSentencing (Discount Cap and Other Matters) Amendment Act\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c45e7c0afa45483c878ed8a623afdaa6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002232e2327684744d57a46a64a78593e336\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 58, Noes 68.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002262b130bd90fd4cbf834bb57e713cef97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262b130bd90fd4cbf834bb57e713cef97\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A01, replacing \u201CSentencing (Reform) Amendment Act\u201D with \u201CSentencing (Fearmongering and Virtue Signalling) Amendment Act\u201D, is out of order as not being an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022946b77bb703d4bfda3437b53d6022c19\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause\u00A01 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause\u00A01 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00222e731028d4724d4988f2c721464440f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e731028d4724d4988f2c721464440f6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A02, replacing \u201C3\u201D with \u201C6\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222d702daf3c1e44da8d103d7257994eda\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002285af20424fc34fddba9d8efa87d23669\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause\u00A02 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause\u00A02 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000184\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000185\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00221f8007d192ef4c74b77040e6bb83665b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f8007d192ef4c74b77040e6bb83665b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has further considered the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d505b59413d34633b91f394d9813ed28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d505b59413d34633b91f394d9813ed28\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226772b65dfdac419b926c4bc2604c052e\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00220f027feb37ed46adb467371ad69fb96b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f027feb37ed46adb467371ad69fb96b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceb6d9107cac4f4c85f748d0504f7df0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3b460798414489ebe6d6ee893259880\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThis bill is a significant piece of legislation that delivers on the coalition Government\u2019s manifesto commitment to restore law and order and to ensure that there are real consequences for crime. It also delivers on a specific promise in the Government\u2019s third-quarter action plan to introduce legislation that ensures real consequences for criminals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EUnder the previous administration\u2019s misguided approach to crime, which focused on reducing the prison population by 30\u00A0percent regardless of what was going on in our communities, we saw an alarming increase in violent crime, ram raids, and aggravated robberies. Why? Well, in part this was because criminals knew that they would get away with a slap on the wrist and light sentences. We know that the undue leniency has resulted in a loss of public confidence in elements of sentencing and in our justice system as a whole. And we\u2019ve developed, sadly, in this country, a culture of excuses for crime\u2014that ends this week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe reforms have three key objectives: making sure the punishment fits the crime, restoring the principle of personal responsibility, and better recognising the victims of crime. First and foremost, our reforms today, which will pass, will limit sentence discounts that judges can apply to 40\u00A0percent. Kiwis are sick and tired of seeing brazen criminals who have been convicted of serious offences\u2014offences sometimes resulting in the death of fellow New Zealanders, people who are sons or daughters or loved ones of New Zealanders, or injuries that blight their lives for ever. People who have been convicted of these crimes are receiving massively discounted sentences for a whole variety of reasons, sometimes to the extent of not actually being imprisoned. In recent years, we\u2019ve seen serious crime increasingly coming before the courts, but the response has been counterintuitive\u2014a reduction in the use of imprisonment and shorter prison sentences overall\u2014much to the dismay of victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EParliament, through this bill, is sending a different message: we\u2019re putting a limit on the overall discounts. There\u2019s been a lot of debate around this: \u201COh, is this somehow unconstitutional or unfairly or inappropriately limiting judicial discretion?\u201D Of course, Parliament sets the sentencing framework, and the framework in New Zealand is currently that a maximum sentence is put down in legislation, and there is judicial discretion under that. We could do things in a different way. We could have minimum sentences; we could have mandatory sentences. We haven\u2019t moved to either of those things in relation to this, but we have, through Parliament, sent a clear message that we\u2019re not content with very substantial discounts for a host of reasons, and we want to put a limit on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt is disappointing that the Labour Party is opposing this. We heard on a number of occasions after the election\u2014there was a reflection, I remember, from the Leader of the Opposition, Mr Hipkins, saying that perhaps they had been too slow to respond to retail crime and community concerns about these issues. Perhaps they reflected upon that, but they seem to have forgotten that message. They seem to have forgotten and they\u2019ve gone back to their old ways, which is to never support changes that will actually bring real consequences for crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EOf course, I\u2019m not surprised that the Greens don\u2019t support this and they refer to this as \u201Cfearmongering\u201D. If you talk to the victims of crime in our community, if you go down to a main street of Papatoetoe and talk to the retailers who are suffering and living in fear and surrounded by cages in their stores because of the extent of violent crime\u2014if you say that they\u2019re fearmongering, I think you will find you get a very hostile response. What we\u2019re focused on is making some real progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESecondly, we\u2019re putting an end to the repeated discounts for youth and remorse. We believe a sentence should primarily respond to a person\u2019s decision to commit a crime, not solely focus on their circumstances and background. It\u2019s particularly frustrating for victims when offenders receive a sentence discount for expressing remorse\u2014not once but in every subsequent instance of reoffending. So we absolutely want to make some allowance when a young person\u2014and when we\u2019re talking about a young person, we\u2019re talking about people typically between the age of 18 and 25; we\u2019re not talking about 12-year-olds: that\u2019s dealt with separately. Yes, you can get a discount for being young and remorseful, but not on multiple occasions\u2014that makes a mockery of the justice system. These reforms will restore the principle of personal responsibility. And we particularly want to condemn certain types of offending, such as where the offender live streams or posts their actions online, or where an adult offender commits, or was party to, an offence committed by a child or a young person. On those occasions, we\u2019re thinking of when you have an adult driving a car with a bunch of teenagers doing a ram raid\u2014well, that adult needs to take greater responsibility because they have led younger people into a crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EImportantly, this bill will recognise the needs of victims, particularly those who have suffered from years of increased retail crime; encourage the use of cumulative sentencing for offences committed while on bail, in custody, or on parole; amend the principles of the Sentencing Act to have a stronger focus on the victims\u2019 needs and interests; and introduce a suite of new aggravating factors for offenders who are targeting victims working alone\u2014those whose homes or businesses are interconnected\u2014and public transport workers as well. But I particularly think of people working in dairies, for example, where they\u2019re living upstairs and they\u2019ve been subjected to ram raids or violent offending downstairs. That has a horrendous impact on the family due to the fear that is associated with it. I\u2019m frankly amazed and shocked that we\u2019re not getting support across the House for this legislation. Retail crime increased by 85\u00A0percent between 2019 and 2023, including a 91\u00A0percent increase in victimisations relating to theft. Small-business owners have been left feeling powerless and at the mercy of those who robbed their livelihoods. It\u2019s only right that offending against people who live in fear of theft and assault, often with their families nearby upstairs, result in a tougher sentence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe sliding scale for guilty pleas will be intimated with a maximum sentence discount of 25\u00A0percent if a guilty plea is made at the earliest opportunity. But we\u2019re not going to give 25\u00A0percent if it\u2019s on the morning of the trial; only 5\u00A0percent is available at the last minute. Earlier guilty pleas will spare more victims from having to prepare for and give evidence at trial, and they will help improve timeliness, so we\u2019re determined to do this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe also see the opportunity to progress a couple of recommendations from the royal commission of inquiry into abuse in care\u2014specifically, amending the existing aggravating factor that requires the court to consider that particular vulnerability of a victim, by adding in State or faith-based care as an example of vulnerability which may be known to an offender when the offence was committed; secondly, the requirement for the court to consider additional aggravating factors in cases involving violence against, or neglect of, a child under the age of 14, so that they can also apply to cases involving a young person who is under the age of 18. They were recommendations of the royal commission, and we\u2019re happy to progress them in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI extend my thanks to the Justice Committee, the Sentencing and Rehabilitation team at justice, and the Parliamentary Counsel Office for their work to help this passage of the bill through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, we\u2019ve set two clear targets: ensuring that there are 20,000 fewer victims of violent crime by 2029, and also reducing serious repeat youth offenders by 15\u00A0percent. This is a significant milestone in this Government\u2019s mission to restore law and order. It signals to the victims of crime that they deserve justice and, to the wider public, that the Government is committed to ensuring that they feel safe in their homes and in their places of work. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022adc92c3ecbf649a1a7b32e848303eb97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adc92c3ecbf649a1a7b32e848303eb97\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022e46eae44c6c5441bb9ac6ab3bab9c374\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e46eae44c6c5441bb9ac6ab3bab9c374\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I mean, criminal justice isn\u2019t simple, and it\u2019s not simplistic, and that\u2019s what this bill is. I\u2019ve found it a little hard to listen to the Minister of Justice talking about how his Government is allegedly making progress on a target to reduce victims of serious crime or violent crime by 20,000 when, in fact, they\u2019ve gone up by 6,000 and the best he can do is find a tweet with some misleading figures to trumpet his Government\u2019s success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis bill is a knee-jerk reaction. Look, in other areas we are supporting the Government\u2019s work, particularly around the experience of victims in court, and we agree that there\u2019s work to be done and we need to do better in looking after victims. But sentencing, in particular, is a very difficult task. The community does want to see punishment, but the State and the court has a critical role in standing between victim and offender, between the community and the offender, and balancing a whole lot of competing interests. That is why we have judges\u2014judges who can stand back, listen carefully, and balance those competing considerations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe Minister, straight out of the National Party election playbook, talks about real consequences for crime. But when we look at sentencing, we\u2019ve got to ask: what are the objectives? And they\u2019re, in fact, set out in the Act. And they\u2019re in no particular order, but right up there is to hold the offender accountable, as well as to provide for the interests of the victim of the offence. But equally in there is to assist in rehabilitation and reintegration to protect the community from the offender, if necessary. That\u2019s all in section\u00A07 of the Sentencing Act. If we take that together, criminal justice has a difficult and complex project of not only dealing with this offender but creating a community in the future which is safer than the one we have today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis doesn\u2019t do that. Most fundamentally, this doesn\u2019t do that because it removes from the judge the ability to weigh up what the best response to offending is. Sometimes the offending is serious and the offender is irredeemable or the crime so vicious and violent that the community needs it to be marked out by a long term of imprisonment. I get that. In other circumstances, that is not the case. The offender and the community\u2014the offender will be better off, the victim\u2019s needs will be better addressed, and the community will be safer if a different sentence is imposed or a shorter period of imprisonment or better reintegration or rehabilitation or home detention or alcohol and drug treatment. There\u2019s a whole world of possible responses out there, but this Government is saying, \u201CNo. Just put them in prison for longer.\u201D That is the extent of their thinking around justice policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe Justice Committee, as it listened to submitters and looked at evidence, had a stream of thoughtful submitters, coming in and saying, \u201CThis is taking the wrong path.\u201D But the Government was not interested in it. And consistent with what it\u2019s done in other areas, it\u2019s just saying, \u201CWe\u2019ve said we\u2019re going to do it. We don\u2019t care about the evidence, so we will press on regardless.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOne of the real problems with this is that it will distort judges\u2019 behaviour. The judges, through many years, have a set of guiding principles for sentencing. One of those is assessing a starting point. Looking at the circumstances of offending and saying, \u201CWell, given those circumstances of offending, the starting point for consideration of the sentence is here.\u201D So it might be a serious assault with a 10-year maximum sentence. They\u2019ll look at the overall circumstances and say, \u201CWell, for this kind of offending, I would start at seven years and then apply discounts.\u201D And it\u2019s worked\u2014that process has worked\u2014and aggravating factors as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhat we now have is a rule that says, \u201CYou can get a maximum discount of 40\u00A0percent from the starting point.\u201D So if a judge wants to give a lower sentence, what are they going to do? They\u2019re simply going to lower the starting point. There\u2019s no rule against lowering the starting point. They\u2019re going to look at it. They\u2019re going to backwards reason: \u201CThat offending deserves imprisonment of three years. To get that within the 40\u00A0percent discount rule, I need to lower the starting point accordingly.\u201D So all of a sudden\u2014and this is what fiddling with these kinds of matters does, particularly in reducing discretion\u2014they\u2019ll just get a workaround. That\u2019s one problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I\u2019m actually more concerned about is discharges without conviction. Now, there\u2019s no particular rule about when or what kind of crime you can get a discharge without conviction for. The question is whether the conviction would be a disproportionate punishment, given the circumstances of the offending and the nature of the offender, and so on and so forth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, if you\u2019re going to make sentencing by definition excessive, by definition unjust, then recourse to discharges without conviction will increase. That\u2019s problematic, because there are circumstances right now where you wouldn\u2019t get a discharge without conviction but tomorrow you will. So you\u2019re having an opposite effect. This is the perversity that happens when you go in with a slogan and make it policy. Slogans make bad policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt may well be that there\u2019s work to be done in sentencing. For a long time there has been an argument that sentencing should be removed from the political arena but that judges should be given guidance\u2014that they need a unifying principle. On the other side of the House, they would say that there\u2019s been this tendency to give softer and softer sentences. Well, is that true or false or is it just an impression we have through the media? Well, a sentencing council which looks at sentences\u2014and I know the Minister\u2019s had meetings overseas about the sentencing council. It\u2019s a good idea because we need to depoliticise this, because we\u2019re not making the community safer by just simply having a blanket approach to sentencing. If we are going to say we need better guidance to the judges, then a sentencing council is one way to do it and a very useful way where you have the ability to look over all of the decisions being made, see where there are wrinkles, see where there are inconsistencies, and provide guidance and advice that the judges are expected to pick up. So that\u2019s a further thing that is well worth consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other thing in here is that there are just some outright injustices. So, for example, the remorse discount\u2014that if you come and you convince the court that you\u2019re genuinely remorseful, the court can take that into account and reduce the sentence imposed. You want to see that it\u2019s real. You don\u2019t want crocodile tears, I get it\u2014absolutely appropriate. But you can\u2019t get it twice. But there\u2019s a carve out. You can get a discount twice if you provide compensation. So the court can take into account compensation to victims\u2014a payment for the harm that\u2019s been caused. So people who can afford to make compensation can, effectively, get remorse discounts every time they pay. But people who can\u2019t afford to make compensation payments can\u2019t get those discounts. That\u2019s just one of the kind of twists and turns of this bill in trying to pander and not taking a careful, considered, evidence-based approach. By not taking the time to develop policy, rather than just implementing slogans, we\u2019ve got a bad piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe all want a safer community. We all want victims to be accorded their rights and treated with respect. We want fewer victims overall. And we do want to set aside serious offending and show the community disgust and distaste for it. But this bill doesn\u2019t do that. It just increases longer sentences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002272c4e53859ef4cdaa0c35d44a4a88196\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272c4e53859ef4cdaa0c35d44a4a88196\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party of Aotearoa to oppose this bill strongly. Here we are talking yet again about a bill that does not genuinely serve our communities. This bill, for what it\u2019s worth, is complex, and there will be repercussions from this bill for years and generations to come. Future generations will look at this bill as a repugnant bill that will harm and will not break the vicious cycle that we are seeing in Aotearoa in our criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s start with some of the things we discussed during the committee stage. Fundamentally, we know that one of the fundamental principles of Aotearoa\u2019s constitutional arrangements is the principle of comity, whereby the legislature and the executive are separate and independent from the judiciary and that the court system is allowed to operate independently and fully in its own right. We have heard from submitters that this bill particularly about the limitations\u2014the 40\u00A0percent cap on discounts to sentencing\u2014that go against that fundamental principle of our constitutional arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWe have questioned the Minister of Justice during the committee of the whole House stage over and over again, but all we received from the Minister are sound bites and hot takes and not actually evidence-based material. We know that the Minister and the Government are not using evidence when it comes to deciding a bill like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWe questioned the Minister around our concerns when it comes to party liability. The Minister never once mentioned how the introduction of section\u00A066 of the Crimes Act 1961 on party liability would further harm particularly women in abusive relationships, because if they are an accomplice to a crime, there is no way for them to withdraw from that in our current legal framework, yet they are being punished both under the Crimes Act and now under the Sentencing Act. That is not about victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWe have seen that by not allowing young people the opportunity\u2014because apparently when you commit a crime, and if you commit a crime again, suddenly you\u2019re not young any more. That fundamentally goes against our agreement under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and other international legal instruments, not to mention the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, when we are looking at a bill like this. So, fundamentally, we are going against what we signed up for internationally when we introduce this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWhy? Because of the fact that the Minister and the Government are hearing from people to say that this is what\u2019s been happening; there are victims. Victims are important, but this bill does not address victims. The one section of this bill that does address victims is actually a rewording of an existing section of the Sentencing Act that already exists. There\u2019s nothing in this bill for victims other than the slogan of \u201Ctough on crime\u201D, which we know does not work. If we look at any other country that has a tough on crime approach but doesn\u2019t address the social concerns and the social issues that people are experiencing, we know that it does not work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s talk about victims. I already mentioned that under the new aggravating factor that includes section\u00A066 of the Crimes Act, we are not going to be seeing women, in particular, in abusive relationships being supported by this legislation. We are not seeing how this legislation is going to break the cycle of violence, break the cycle of poverty that we\u2019re seeing in our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe one thing the Minister mentioned was in terms of the fact that, yes, we have taken on the recommendation of the report on State abuse and also faith-based abuse, but then the Minister failed to mention that the one recommendation that will support those victims of the report by allowing a mitigating factor for those victims of State and faith-based abuse has not been taken up by the Government. Why? Apparently it is too hard to manage, yet we have seen new aggravating factors being introduced as a part of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo what does this bill serve? What we are seeing here is something that will harm our young people, that is anti - Te Tiriti. We reaffirm that this Government\u2019s only housing policy for M\u0101ori is by increasing prison beds. That is what we will see as a result of this bill. We will see more young people who will be harmed as a result. We will see that lawyers and judges will find different ways, like the previous speaker the Hon Dr Duncan Webb has mentioned, of being able to balance what they see in front of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be perfectly honest: those of us in this House are not judges, and very few of us are lawyers that have that experience in youth justice, in criminal justice, in M\u0101ori justice, in Pasifika justice, in migrant justice. Very few of us can say, hand on heart, that that is our background, that is our experience. So why, then, would we introduce a bill that does not listen to advice from officials, that does not listen to advice from the experts, from our communities? We have heard submissions from the New Zealand Law Society. We have heard submissions from Community Law saying that this is not going to address the levers of crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFor those of you who have been familiar with some of the earlier work of Plato, in 375 BC when he authored The Republic, he talks about the rise of the demagogue. It talks about how when political leaders take a populist approach to law and legislation and running of city-State and of the country, they then fail to see the common good. That is in the 4th century BC, and we are seeing a repeat of that right now with this Government. We\u2019re seeing people not taking an evidence-based approach to the criminal justice system but a populist approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWhat is justice? What is law? We have heard too many times in this House that if people commit a crime, commit an offence, there should be punishment and there should be repercussions. But who determines that law? We do. So we decide who criminals are in Aotearoa. We decide in this very House who commits crime in Aotearoa. That is not about justice. It reminds us of the obligation and responsibility that we have in this House, that we have to the people of Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIf we really want to talk about crime and justice, where is the legislation I\u2019m seeing around white-collar crime? Where is the legislation I\u2019m seeing around tax evasion? If you really want to take a tough on crime approach, where are those who avoid paying tax in Aotearoa? We are not seeing that. Instead, what we are seeing is punishing the beneficiaries. We are punishing those people who are already finding it difficult to put food on the table. That is not justice. That is not just. That is not how we make law. That should not be how we make law in this very House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ETo conclude, the Green Party of Aotearoa absolutely will not support this bill because we do not see this bill as being one that will break the cycle of harm and break the cycle of violence in Aotearoa. We see this as a bottom-of-the-cliff approach to crime and justice. What we want to see is everybody having a warm and safe home to live in. What we want to see is having a fair tax system so everyone is able to thrive. This bill does nothing for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u00229a0c2f00097147f6b85bff0a8aec4303\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a0c2f00097147f6b85bff0a8aec4303\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m very pleased to rise on behalf of ACT to speak on the third reading of the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill. ACT is supporting this bill, and we\u2019re very pleased to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EDuring the election campaign, ACT went up and down the country campaigning, like many members in this House, and we heard from New Zealanders about their concerns around law and order. We know that in the last five years, gangs have recruited a huge number of people into their midst\u2014up by more than 3,000 people. We\u2019ve seen an escalation in violent crime, ram raids, dairy owners being attacked\u2014really unacceptable things in our society. It\u2019s really good to see that the Government has taken a measured approach with a number of different law and order reforms\u2014this being one of them\u2014and I want to thank our partners in National and New Zealand First for picking up some of ACT\u2019s ideas, along with us supporting some of theirs around more police numbers and, obviously, around gang patch bans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003ESo, you know, ACT has been very pleased to be able to get three strikes back in place. Obviously, we\u2019ve got the serious youth offenders category coming. But in this bill, we\u2019re actually also seeing a couple of things that ACT is very pleased to be able to campaign on and now deliver. And that really is around the aggravating factors for those in particular roles, whether that\u2019s in public transport or sole-charge workers\u2014you know, people living on their premises who are particularly vulnerable to violent crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EAnd then what\u2019s also been talked about is limiting the reduction around sentencing and the 40\u00A0percent discount. And, again, you know, it\u2019s appropriate. This House actually does provide guidance to judges. That\u2019s why we set sentences in the Crimes Act, and so this is not unorthodox; it\u2019s just a Parliament taking an interest in our justice system and actually what people have told us, and what kinds of sentences the community expects to see for violent offenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003ESo it is good to see these changes. We did campaign on them. It doesn\u2019t address all of the issues in our criminal justice system; we\u2019ve never pretended that this bill does. But it is a part of a suite of measures that this Government is taking. So I\u2019m looking forward to having this law in place\u2014actually seeing it flow through to consequences for offences; actually making our community safer, which is what ACT is here for; and making sure victims are actually put first and that there are consequences for serious crimes in our community. So ACT commends this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022 data-id=\u00228481d25133ee458f9bcf9160600cc80c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228481d25133ee458f9bcf9160600cc80c\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill. I was a member of the Justice Committee that heard from a number of submitters, and, I must say, we\u2019ve heard one view from the other side of the House, but there was also a view that this bill is going in the right direction. It restores real consequences for crime. There are three key areas that the Minister of Justice has pointed out: making sure the punishment fits the crime, restoring the principles of personal responsibility, and recognising victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EWe have had for too long, the Opposition, the Labour Party, for instance, being soft on crime. They, under their watch, wanted to reduce the prison population and they actually achieved reducing the prison population by 30\u00A0percent, but by reducing the prison population, criminal activity and serious violent crime increased by 33\u00A0percent and that was the consequence of their doing. They want to develop a culture of excuses for people that commit crime, and that is wrong and it\u2019s why under their watch criminals kept doing what they were doing\u2014because they could get away with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EThis Government is setting in place consequences for what they are doing. And New Zealand First supports this bill. It\u2019s the Government\u2019s aim to reduce violent crime by 20,000 by 2029. We favour more accountability by the courts and tougher punishment for those who opt for hurting others. And through the speeches so far, isn\u2019t it so often the case that we never hear from the Opposition about the victims, those who are being hurt? The people we should be caring about are the victims, and this is what this piece of legislation does\u2014it puts the victims at the forefront. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9185a4e2e7e4c6e820381922401f3dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9185a4e2e7e4c6e820381922401f3dc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2014this is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022 data-id=\u00225da685e9dc4243749ebff9fe3e27f235\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225da685e9dc4243749ebff9fe3e27f235\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E Ka pai. Hei aha ng\u0101 k\u014Drero o t\u0113r\u0101 taha. [It\u2019s OK. Never mind what the other side is saying.] E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 whakaaro a Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori [I stand to deliver the sentiments of the M\u0101ori Party] and I am going to do it in English. I want to start by addressing and dispelling the myth that because M\u0101ori are overrepresented as victims of crime, it is OK for the Government to ignore the fact that its own justice system has systematically, structurally, and attitudinally allowed the brutalisation of the M\u0101ori people for 171 years, since its inception.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori have been the victims of the justice system since it first appeared and began passing laws that systemically strip M\u0101ori of their legal rights in our own country, like the suppression of rebellion laws of the 1860s and 70s, like there being no requirement for trial before imprisonment of M\u0101ori for two years\u2014laws from the same period. \u201CLet\u2019s not look back.\u201D, they say. Add to that the disposition of land laws\u2014far too extensive to list in a five-minute speech\u2014that stripped M\u0101ori of their economic, social, and cultural bases, condemning M\u0101ori to the ever-intensifying intergenerational poverty and everything that comes with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EThe Government have another catchcry for justice: take personal responsibility, as we\u2019ve just heard Mr Arbuckle spout. This is their retort to our presenting of historical and current evidence. \u201CTake personal responsibility.\u201D, they say, whilst ignoring the fact that they take no responsibility for the actions of successive Governments in this country that are the root cause of the current poverty and justice settings we are dealing with in this country today. And they do this while ignoring the now exhaustive evidence and datasets, most of which are published by their own agencies. It defies any sensible logic, and this bill is an extension of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EWhat it does explain, though, is the Government\u2019s approach to the formulation of justice policy and lawmaking in our country. And that is to study voting trends of the public and then use that as the basis for the formulation of justice policy and lawmaking in our country, while simultaneously ignoring all of the historic and current evidence and data, including their own agencies\u2019 recommendations and advice. I don\u2019t know why they bother to have agencies. There is little hope for te iwi M\u0101ori when it comes to justice in Aotearoa. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori presents information and analysis to improve, to implore the Government to take into account all historic and current evidence when formulating justice policy and law. We are ignored, as is all of the evidence, I might add. Instead, they study voting trends to develop catchcries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EWhat they should do is study the drivers of poverty and then turn to formulation of justice policy and law. This would ultimately lead them to fulfilling their own overarching departmental slogan for the Department of Justice with the aspiration of lowering the overall representation of M\u0101ori in the justice system. Unfortunately, as they are organised now and led, they will never realise this and M\u0101ori will bear the brunt of it and will remain perpetually and intergenerationally trapped in the justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EDisproportionate exertion of force is experienced by M\u0101ori throughout the entire justice system, not just at the sentencing end but right throughout it: the beginning, first point of contact, through the process, sentencing, in prison\u2014the lot. It\u2019s not being disputed; it\u2019s well understood. So this disproportionate exercise of force on M\u0101ori is felt at every instance, be it at the initial point of contact, like the experience of the young 15-year-old Heretaunga boy, in the early hours of Sunday, 16\u00A0March\u2014yeah, only just a couple of weeks ago, not long ago, not even 10 days\u2014who, in the process of being detained, had his jaw broken and then was denied any medical support for three hours. This is the nature of excessive force for M\u0101ori families\u2014injustice: denied any support for three hours until the next shift came along and said, \u201CHika, you look bad; better get you to hospital.\u201D He had to be flown to Wellington for an emergency surgery. His jaw was broken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EI want the reality of that to sink in for you a bit. This is what we are talking about when we talk about M\u0101ori being disproportionately everything in justice; albeit when you\u2019re in prison, when you\u2019re going through the court system, no support for M\u0101ori\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223e157903c534e06a29d588c472eb05c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4b232b7db044f0b853c9b8ad9ef05c1\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Ng\u0101 mihi. We do not commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u0022541f90b0b5ff4666a31b897c81ac5a08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022541f90b0b5ff4666a31b897c81ac5a08\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Well, this is the sad state of this House, that you\u2019ve got a significant bill coming though and you\u2019ve got the Government parties who have led this legislation stand up and give two-minute pathetic speeches. That side of the House is so out of touch with the reality of New Zealand; they get up and they give their stump speeches, give their key lines, and then they sit back down because they don\u2019t have anything valuable to contribute to this discussion. That is a disservice to victims: that the summary of your thoughts and ideas on justice is to spit out some lines that some communications adviser wrote for you. Pathetic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThis sentencing reform bill is going to result in more people being funnelled into our prisons and it does not make our communities any safer. I don\u2019t know what la-la land you might be living in on that side of the House, but if you\u2019d actually set foot in a prison there\u2019s no rehabilitation going on in there. I\u2019ve been to 10 prisons in the last year; there\u2019s no rehabilitation going on at all in there. What do you think people are doing in there? Making better connections; that\u2019s why it\u2019s called \u201Cthe Ministry of Connections\u201D, not \u201CCorrections\u201D, because that\u2019s not happening in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003ERehabilitation is virtually non-existent. You\u2019re sending people in there for a longer time to make more friends to be better criminals. Well done, you\u2019ve achieved something today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5b6d3d2e6804c6fa312a641ab4c26dd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t bring the Speaker into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa4a834e18fa4952a7a0c7be7a8fbef6\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: OK. We know for a fact that only 7 to 15\u00A0percent of rehabilitation programmes in prisons are actually successful, and prisons don\u2019t even have the time to consider what kind of a service they\u2019re offering to people in those prisons because they are so busy trying to accommodate a growing prison population. I don\u2019t know why the other members are looking at me in disgust; that is the consequence of your actions, the Government\u2019s actions. Yes, they are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EPrison capacity is the summary of your justice approach and response. It\u2019s not to address the drivers of crime, it\u2019s not to address poverty or trauma, or mental health issues or drug addiction, which are the reasons why people end up in prison. Your response is to make our prisons larger. You want to make Christchurch prison larger, Auckland prison larger, and continue to build prisons. That is not going to solve anything. I spoke to a corrections officer and he said, \u201CAs the muster grows, the quality goes.\u201D That\u2019s what they\u2019re preparing for, and at the moment they are dealing with double-bunk cells, they are at capacity, and this bill will make those prisons even fuller. There are too many people in our prisons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThis bill is particularly disgusting, though, because it attacks our young people, the people who are supposed to be our future. You\u2019re saying that their age should not be taken into account by judges when they\u2019re sentenced. There is a reason that those provisions are in place and it\u2019s because people in their lives, when their brains are developing at a certain age, make decisions differently. They do not weigh up the consequences. They are more susceptible to being peer pressured into doing things that they don\u2019t want to do. But it\u2019s easy for that side of the House to sit there and hand wring and talk about personal responsibility because they\u2019ve had more options in their lives than all of the young people that are in prison. How do I know? Because I talked to them. I went to the youth unit at Mount Eden Prison and asked them why they were in there, and it was because they had no options, because they are disabled, because they are poor, because they come from places not like the ones that this side of the House come from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EHave some compassion and some empathy for the people that you talk about and that you lock up, the human potential that this Government wastes\u2014absolutely wastes it. This bill oversteps judicial discretion. There\u2019s a reason why judges stop sentencing people\u2014because they know that prisons don\u2019t work\u2014and then here comes this ideological Government who has no care in the world for evidence, who continues to do the same thing over and over again, and it does not work. Eight hundred\u00A0million dollars over five years is going into Corrections. Meanwhile, our hospitals are degraded, our schools are collapsing, our public services are in absolute disarray. You spend $151,000 on locking one person up; $80,000 per person in the Corrections system. You spend $1,000 per person in the health budget; you spend $4,000 per person in the education budget. It\u2019s pathetic, and I know it\u2019s not where taxpayers want their money going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EYou guys, this side of the House, needs to buck their ideas up when it comes to justice, because all it is failure after failure. It is ruining lives, it is wasting human potential, and it is not the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cbde1f98cfdd4742841bf752e05a7b15\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225710e912a11c42d6b11b9213282d50f7\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e78c856c1ac7405eb8779ce1dbc96c37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e78c856c1ac7405eb8779ce1dbc96c37\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, before I take the next call, during the committee stage of the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill, the result of the vote on Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause\u00A01, replacing \u201CSentencing (Reform) Amendment Act\u201D with \u201CSentencing (Discount Cap and other Matters) Amendment Act\u201D, was incorrectly announced as Ayes 58 and Noes 68. The correct result is Ayes 55 and Noes 68. The record will be corrected accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002299c35f7a5eca417bb0146e302d4ab727\u0022\u003ESentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa99c46e7d00402080985b1f53ddfd43\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000266\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u0022599b101429344356bdf0bfb547b94740\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022599b101429344356bdf0bfb547b94740\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Recently, I had the opportunity to attend the ceremony where we recognised the great work of members of the Corrections team across my electorate for the work they do. Particularly, one of my areas is in reform and rehabilitation, and I just want to acknowledge that work as part of the contribution I\u2019m making to this debate this afternoon. Because if they were listening to that contribution that\u2019s just been made, they would think that their contribution to rehabilitation is not appreciated, and I want all of those corrections officers to know that it is, by this Government. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022b784d34c34ee48f4a99eec82276beb2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b784d34c34ee48f4a99eec82276beb2f\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That was a very short speech. I thought we would have got a bit more from that member, but that\u2019s fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis is an interesting debate we have because when we\u2019re talking about being tough on crime, as we\u2019ve heard, and the importance of this bill as a signature piece for the Government to demonstrate their commitment to being tough on crime, it comes in the context of where we\u2019ve seen a 96\u00A0percent increase in the use of methamphetamine. So it\u2019s important that if we\u2019re curtailing the independence of the judiciary to impose sentences and saying that that\u2019s tough on crime\u2014but at the same time we have seen a deadly drug that absolutely devastates communities; that drives retail crime up, increases that; that increases violent crime; and it also adds to increased family violence. Business is booming for the gangs right now; they\u2019re doing the best they\u2019ve ever done before because they are selling record levels of methamphetamine in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI find it somewhat two-faced to profess that this Government and this bill are tough on crime when life has never been better for the gangs. The price point of methamphetamine is the lowest it has been in New Zealand\u2019s history, and the purity of methamphetamine is the highest. We have a market that is absolutely flooded with cheap, high-quality methamphetamine, and those profiting from it\u2014those doing well from it\u2014are the gangs. So if this Government is so tough on crime, why is business booming for gangs right now in New Zealand? I\u2019d love to hear from some of the members opposite to their answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBecause where in this bill lies the answer to curtailing the intricate web of organised criminal activity that peddles misery in our communities and causes increased poverty, increased violence, and increased retail crime within our communities? Because if this Government is, in fact, being tough on crime with this bill, you can ask any police officer, in any given city or area, who their top two or three retail crime offenders are, and you can ask them what is driving that retail crime. Those large-scale operations where you see a trolley full of meat being stolen from Woolworths or Pak\u2019nSave? Those are meth users who are stealing to order, in order to feed their addiction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EMethamphetamine is a significant driver of retail crime in our community. So where is this Government\u2019s answer to being tough on crime when we see gangs doing better than ever before in New Zealand? In fact, during a cost of living crisis\u2014when every other food group has gone through the roof: rates, insurance, everywhere where we see communities, rents are all increasing\u2014the one big price drop we\u2019ve seen in New Zealand under this Government is the cost of a price point of methamphetamine. I think that demonstrates that bills like this one are window dressing. They tick the box of being able to say that they\u2019re tough on crime, but the reality is demonstrated in the 96\u00A0percent increase in the use of methamphetamine\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acdf1edda76e4cc9bbe4f655f052482d\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks to Labour. Six years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e71a4a12ab434d66ba01d26b4cf37471\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014reported last week, done in one year. So in one year\u2014to that member opposite who\u2019s interjecting\u2014from 2023 to 2024\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7d9852fbb9942afa07c4ea1ebf5e0d3\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Six years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2b6018214b14dcea99473f4953d5b28\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in one year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ba5cb8822f949d1916c5ea303e189c0\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: $2.75\u00A0million to your friend, Harry. Great guy! Mongrel Mob!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5d574c73bb74659aff5a0ebd5368a2f\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014we have had a 96\u00A0percent increase in methamphetamine under their Government\u2019s watch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e565e9d800ee4a39954bea908fca0445\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Just give him $2.75\u00A0million\u2014Harry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8c738df0fa24c03a301bf2ad71b28fb\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: The other bill we\u2019re seeing coming through this House today in terms of not being tough on crime\u2014which undermines the whole purpose of the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill\u2014would be weakening our gun laws. On top of making methamphetamine cheaper than ever\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fce897876b94c329535cfa69bdae8fb\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks to Labour. Friends of gangs. Six years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245c26bcdc803495ea656ccd5752e9659\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and giving gangs more income than ever before, we\u2019re weakening gun laws and paving\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e691f7e22ef043e38ce20328b70e2a1e\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I\u2019m just sitting here listening to a very excellent speech, but also reflecting on Speakers\u2019 rulings. In 64/3, it clearly states that a \u201Crunning commentary of interjections is out of order;\u201D. The members on the Government side of the House have plenty of opportunity to take calls. And we\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209f8d9982c4b44e8b50ef77e1deb7203\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the point of order. Thank you. Look, I tend to allow quite a free give and take within the House. There have been several interjections from both sides during this debate. It wasn\u2019t rowdy, it wasn\u2019t disruptive, but it was sustained. But I\u2019ll ask the member to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fbdcc9641bd4f668ff433a88fa1b81d\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. The point I was making was that if this bill is tough on crime, why has methamphetamine use gone up by 96\u00A0percent, meaning that business is booming for the gangs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESecondly, if this bill and this Government propose to be tough on crime, why are they weakening gun laws by passing, under urgency later on today, a bill that will lay the foundations for taking the Firearms Safety Authority away from police, away from their best advice, away from protecting front-line safety; and actually enabling a far less regulated system for firearms ranges and guns and gun safety in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI guess it\u2019s the importance of highlighting that this bill in itself\u2014with its tick-box measure of attempting to show that it\u2019s tough on crime\u2014if we lift the lid, if we lift the hood on this car, then underneath it we see the real picture and we see criminals having, more readily, access to firearms; the easier diversion of firearms into the criminal underworld; and the free-flowing ability of selling and profiting from illicit drugs. Those things are the cycle of crime. If we are serious as a country to get on top of crime, we have to break that cycle. We want to look at where this continues to cause harm in our communities. We want to stop that from causing destruction and hurt in the next generation of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBut this Government has no interest in that. They want to simply demonstrate, over a short term, that they are tough, without actually looking at any clear evidence or actually taking some interest into looking at what works in New Zealand. This bill is a sad bill that will make them attempt to look like they\u2019re doing tough things. But, in fact, it has no impact upon the real damage and harm that continues to be caused in communities. We\u2019re still seeing record levels of retail crime. We\u2019re still seeing those small-business owners being hurt in their businesses, and under the influence of drugs and other influences that come through their businesses, and who are being threatened with weapons in their place of work. Those areas are still a concern, and it is those areas that we need to look at in how we break the cycle of crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of what this bill does and why we oppose it, the 40\u00A0percent cap on sentence discounts severely restricts judges\u2019 ability to consider the full range of mitigating factors in complex cases. Judges, with their expertise and experience, we think, are the best positioned to weigh all relevant factors and determine appropriate sentences. But this Government thinks they know better\u2014they think they know better and they will impose a regime to impede the discretion of the judiciary. This one-size-fits-all approach may lead to unjust outcomes in cases with unique circumstances. And we heard that very clearly at the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ERestricting discounts for younger offenders may place their rehabilitation in jeopardy. And that\u2019s an interesting point: that if we were serious about breaking the cycle of crime, it is those early on, nipping that behaviour in the bud and making sure there are consequences for those actions and making sure that there is a programme in place that actually makes rehabilitation an attainable goal for young people. But it is under this bill that those young people will be disproportionately impacted, and particularly those from disadvantaged communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EInterestingly, to that point, is the fact that it is those communities that are also disproportionately impacted by the vast increase of methamphetamine now available in New Zealand communities. That report, released last Friday\u2014late on a Friday; interesting how the Government puts things out late on a Friday when they don\u2019t want to talk about things. But it is interesting from that report that it is parts of the North Island, rural New Zealand that are most significantly impacted. It is those communities that are already suffering under the cost of living crisis that are further impacted upon by the increased availability of methamphetamine use in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe cumulative sentences for offences committed on bail and custody under this legislation and under its changes lead to much longer prison sentences. That\u2019s where they get to tick their box, but it does not solve the problem; it does not break the cycle of crime. There is absolutely no interest in being able to demonstrate what the long-term goal or plan is. I think that is the reason why this Government has no plan on reducing methamphetamine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ETo give credit to former National Governments, at least John Key could see that this was damaging our communities. At least he pulled together a group of experts to say, \u201CLet\u2019s get on top of this problem. We can see it\u2019s hurting our people. We can see it\u2019s destroying lives.\u201D But this Government is not interested in a long-term plan. They don\u2019t care about that. They just want to show that they\u2019re tough and they\u2019re going to give criminals tougher sentences. And they think that\u2019s going to fix the problem, but, sadly, it\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022f80ddd8548794d15849591df4fb4252f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f80ddd8548794d15849591df4fb4252f\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E This bill will strengthen the consequences of offending and ensure offenders take personal responsibility for the harm they cause. And what did Ginny Andersen in the Labour Party just say? \u201CThis is a sad bill.\u201D Do you know what\u2019s sad? For the victims in New Zealand who see the people who commit those crimes being tagged and released under that Labour administration and not serving the time for the crimes they\u2019ve committed. And what are we doing? We\u2019re bringing back real consequences. You commit the crime, and you will be held accountable for your actions. Not you, Madam Speaker, but the victims\u2014[Interruption] Ha, ha! Those in community, the offenders who do the crimes, they will be held accountable for their actions. This side of the House care for victims; that side of the House, they do not care for victims. They simply do not care. We are restoring law and order back here in New Zealand; it\u2019s a great day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00227b792116b5a4435a91688d0f18dd0361\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b792116b5a4435a91688d0f18dd0361\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to take up this debating point, which seems to be that the people in the Opposition don\u2019t care about victims. That is actually something that I would reflect on if I was a member of the Government. Is that a good starting point in any discussion, given that we are all here because we represent our communities and we have seen the harm that crime does in our communities? And so rather than be on a high horse, which actually obscures the view, let\u2019s talk about the reality of people\u2019s lives and the reality of the impact on victims of this particular piece of legislation, because it doesn\u2019t do what it says on the tin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThis might make people feel good for two and a half seconds, but, actually, more people will die as a result of this piece of legislation. More people will be harmed as a result of this legislation, and it won\u2019t fix the problem\u2014and that\u2019s what we\u2019re here to do; we\u2019re here to fix the problem, and it\u2019s a serious problem in our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s have a look at this piece of legislation through the eyes of a victim. Let\u2019s talk about what would happen. What I think we also have to acknowledge is that these pieces of legislation don\u2019t work just on their own. They\u2019re part of a net and the net has actually got giant holes in it, in this case, because we have legislation in this House which simply misreads the problem and the solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard people around this House today talk about things like the inadequacy of our imprisonment system, where we\u2019re just simply not rehabilitating people, where we\u2019re putting people into cells in double-bunking situations. And now we will be adding more youth to those cells and they will make connections in gangs. I can see a colleague across the House shaking his head and I wonder what reason he has for shaking his head, because that is the reality\u2014we are putting more people into a place where they will be double-bunked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019m never a fan of double-bunking, where they will be in cells and in communication with people who are much more violent criminals. That will happen and they will learn and grow in those skills, and that\u2019s the opposite from what we want for victims in this country, because those people will come out of prison and they\u2019re much more likely to offend in violent ways, and that will hurt real New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I wanted to talk about another piece of the net here that I think is going in place at the same time, and it\u2019s got the same problem\u2014it\u2019s based on popularism\u2014and that is the issue of citizens arrests. In a place like Sandringham, we\u2019ve had deaths of people when coming out and actually trying to stop somebody who has shoplifted. We\u2019ve had deaths of people, deaths of workers, as a result of that. In fact, what this Government keeps on doing is it keeps on talking about self-responsibility, and it just looks like abandonment. It abandons people through every system. People will be left to try and deal with that situation of an erratic person taking stuff from their shop. They\u2019ll be left on their own to deal with it. And we\u2019ve put it back on the worker and the little shop owner. That\u2019s a shameful thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut then we promise them that in this bill, we\u2019re going to imprison the person who offends by stabbing that shopkeeper. That\u2019s what we\u2019re promising them. And what are we actually doing? We\u2019re taking a whole lot of people and imprisoning them and schooling them in crime in a way that is just not going to work. It is not going to help them in the slightest, because their loved ones are already going to be harmed from it. And now these people will be released into a situation which is even more harmful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I am not saying that we have got the system perfect or that we shouldn\u2019t have good methods of dealing with people who are in what are crime waves. I\u2019m not saying that. I think there is a lack of proportion here, and that does not mean that I\u2019m belittling the crimes that are going on. But I\u2019ve raised this before in another speech\u2014I\u2019ve talked about the issue of white-collar crime. I\u2019ve talked about all those people who are causing harm, whom this doesn\u2019t affect at all, and they actually affect our society. There is absolutely no proportionality here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EFinally, what worries me is that we have conceded there is problem here, because we\u2019ve talked about problems where there is a manifest injustice and rectifying that. That means that we know that there\u2019s going to be a lot of injustice in this law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3a6a0b998c94196be4ffd574d099803\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3a6a0b998c94196be4ffd574d099803\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Finally, we are at the third reading of the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill, and this is absolutely a reformative bill when it comes to victims, because on this side of the House, we actually put victims first\u2014not the Mongrel Mobs of society that received $2.75\u00A0million under the last Government; no, we put victims first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EAnd what\u2019s really sad, actually, is to hear members opposite say that \u201CThis is a sad day.\u201D Yes, actually, it\u2019s a sad day for criminals because now they know that there\u2019s actually going to be tougher consequences for their crime. It\u2019s actually a very good day for victims, for victims in South Auckland that even this morning and yesterday were contacting me about when are tougher consequences for crime going to materialise for them? This is a good day for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EWhat disgusts me is hearing across the House, \u201CMore young people will be harmed.\u201D On 25 July 2024, the New Zealand Herald published an article where the title was: \u201CTimaru teen sex offender Blake Miller avoids jail after 75\u00A0percent sentence discount after offences against child\u201D. The child was 11 years old.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EThis bill that we\u2019re passing today\u2014thank you, God\u2014would have made him go to jail, but he\u2019s on home detention, which is disgusting. Shame on you across the House for saying that this is going to harm young people. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e92c0d61acf24bf1ae1cd5aee603848b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e92c0d61acf24bf1ae1cd5aee603848b\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s an interesting bill, isn\u2019t it, because at the at the heart of almost all of the contributions that we\u2019ve heard, not just today but through this process, has been a couple of key themes, and it\u2019s as if sometimes we talk at cross-purposes. If this was a high school debate where there was some sort of moot and then an opposition, it might seem OK. But this is actually Parliament where people make laws and it\u2019s incumbent upon the Government to try and do a better job and to step up and, and not kind of stoop to that level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe Government members, the people opposite us in this House, have said several times today that this is about putting victims first, and that\u2019s just vacuous. That\u2019s just an utterly rubbish, vacuous comment that doesn\u2019t make any actual sense. It\u2019s as if you say it out loud and that makes it true. Rima Nakhle can sit there and shake her head but just because she stands up and says this is about making victims\u2019 lives better doesn\u2019t actually make it true. There is nothing in this bill that does that. So it\u2019s lazy, vacuous thinking to think that you have the audacity to come here, wave a piece of paper around in the form of this bill, and say, \u201CJob done, tick that one off, we\u2019ve made things better for victims.\u201D, because that does not work and it has not happened within the confines of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe Government is proposing this sentencing amendment bill as part of what they keep insisting on as a broad law and order reform package, and we have yet to see anything that\u2019s broad about it. We are yet to see anything that actually tackles law and order. It is virtue signalling, it is lazy, and it is simply saying things. It is push-poll politics. It is push-poll defining of policy and it is lazy and you should know better. It\u2019s no surprise that Labour strongly opposes this bill, and we do so for several reasons\u2014mainly because it doesn\u2019t do what the Government says it\u2019s going to do, so we can chuck that one out, and it actually has some unintended consequences that are dangerous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo we think that the fundamental objective of this bill is to undermine judicial discretion, which obviously is a bad thing. Arguing that judges don\u2019t know what they\u2019re doing, arguing that individual considerations shouldn\u2019t be taken into account is a slippery slope to creating a system that just creates a revolving door that creates more crime, that creates more victims, and then creates more victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b0050606a3d47c1a43e5fcec9c051f3\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: The victim was 11 years old. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226346bdaa192240c8be9a2ed467656188\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: You can stand up and take a call if you feel so passionate about it, Mr Rutherford. So, several key points to consider here, and one is, as I said, judicial discretion\u2014severely limited. The bill caps total sentence discounts for mitigating factors at 40\u00A0percent, regardless of how many personal and situational factors may apply. It also formalises what it describes as a sliding scale of 25\u00A0percent for early guilty pleas, and on the surface you may think that there is some merit in that and you can see how that would be. The earlier someone fesses up and does a guilty plea during the process, the more their remorse is likely to be perceived as genuine, the less court expense, the less impact on the judicial system is in place, which, again, could show that their remorse is genuine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EBut we didn\u2019t find through the committee of the whole House or at any stage during this process, or the regulatory impact statement or anything else, that there was any robust analysis behind that or anything else that is in this bill. If it was worthwhile doing, we would all be able to sit here and get behind it. If it was actually robust and evidence-driven, we would all be able to go and support this bill because, fundamentally, everybody\u2019s got the same intentions in place, and that is to make New Zealand a better place to live and to make fewer victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIf this worked, we would support it. You\u2019ve had ample opportunity to prove that it works; you\u2019ve had ample opportunity to show some reasons as to why you shouldn\u2019t have unanimous support around the House\u2014not you, Madam Speaker, obviously; Madam Speaker would have tried\u2014but you haven\u2019t done that. And we\u2019ve been open to that argument. On this side of the House, we would have absolutely been open to a sensible argument if a sensible argument existed. Giving an example, a person who confesses and cooperates extensively with police, shows genuine remorse, and has no prior convictions, may still be unable to receive a sentence reduction that would otherwise fairly reflect their circumstances. This one-size-fits-all is not going to do anything to improve the justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThere is one opportunity, often, in a young person\u2019s life to come before the courts to face the circumstances of their offending and to actually turn a corner and to be provided with some societal help to do things differently and to live better and to create a whole new path for themselves. If we chuck away all of those tools that we have at our service, via the judicial process, then we are wasting the opportunity to do just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIn terms of harms, the rehabilitation of youth and marginalised groups, the bill also prevents the discount for youth and for remorse. If we think about the youth discount in particular, we\u2019ve heard several people talk, through this process and particularly at the committee of the whole House stage, about the fact that you don\u2019t stop being young just because you did a bad thing and now you\u2019ve done a second bad thing a short time afterwards, You\u2019re still young. The fact that young people maturate, that they\u2019re finding their way in the world, that their brain development isn\u2019t going to happen until, you know, their early 20s and sometimes longer, that there can be a whole host of societal, cultural, and lifestyle factors, including poverty and including stigma and all of those other things. It doesn\u2019t stop you being young and it doesn\u2019t stop\u2014and it shouldn\u2019t stop\u2014the discretion of a fully formed judge, of a fully formed judicial process, to be able to take things into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EYou may say, \u201CWell, that\u2019s tough luck.\u201D, and want to take a much more punitive approach, but that young person is going to come back round. That young person is going to react in an equally proportionate way to how they\u2019ve been treated, and that will actually impact how they decide to live the rest of their life. We have limited opportunities to make profound impacts on people, and I think we should leave it in the hands of judges who do this day in, day out and who know much more about it than the people sitting opposite me right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also heard contributions today about the increased prison population and the costs of that and that, as a society, we have a choice about\u2014depending on how you look at it\u2014where we spend our money. The fact is that putting people in prison is incredibly expensive; incredibly expensive. At the moment, we are almost at capacity. The Government is going flat out trying to negotiate with unions to be able to open up more prison beds. It\u2019s flat out trying to invest huge swaths of taxpayer money in building new prisons\u2014mega prisons, in one case, in Waikeria\u2014and that just seems like a very convenient way of locking people up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThey try and balance that with this promise, this golden egg, of being able to provide more rehabilitation, but there\u2019s no more rehabilitation happening. The rehabilitation for remand prisoners is yet to start and yet we\u2019ve heard on the other side of the House several references to that over the last few weeks as being something good that the Government has done. It hasn\u2019t even started. We don\u2019t know how it\u2019s going to work, and it\u2019s, again, ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EUnnecessary age aggravating factors: as I said, Labour says that many more of these scenarios are already covered in existing law, and we just don\u2019t value the contribution that this bill makes. We\u2019ve called this a political stunt and we believe that that\u2019s exactly what it is. It\u2019s dressed up as reform. It\u2019s not reform as, again, through the committee of the whole House stage, we heard several much more viable suggestions for an appropriate title that would have been a bit more true to form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard about the fact that methamphetamine use is up; it has absolutely skyrocketed\u2014another example of this Government taking the opportunity to say things but not actually doing them. That has a consequence and that consequence is playing out on the streets of this country as we speak. Business is booming for the gangs. Their tough on crime rhetoric hasn\u2019t worked for anything they\u2019ve done to date, and it certainly is not demonstrated in this bill either. So we do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u00223bae871394724e0e92df4011467b7390\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bae871394724e0e92df4011467b7390\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Very many statements have been made in this debate, but they\u2019re simply out of scope of this debate. The Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill is very specific in its purpose to amend the Sentencing Act of 2002. We in this National Party and this Government strongly support the strengthening of accountability for crimes. It is about consequences, it is about personal responsibility, and being held to account for the damage that crime inflicts on victims. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f2adc93033154f8bac80039e499caaa6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000324\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00221aa2eb4c294d4925b8b42090fa37a8f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221aa2eb4c294d4925b8b42090fa37a8f9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Customer and Product Data Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220aaee919bc3244f3b3dcad1ae4ca9eee\u0022\u003ECustomer and Product Data Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002202ddfbc7743a47f8a5f44392250ef7b7\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e154e3881f90480b9a9bb43bafd67b1e\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002270e578d8f30046edb1135afef4e61cc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270e578d8f30046edb1135afef4e61cc2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is considering the Customer and Product Data Bill. We come first to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 13\u2014\u201CPreliminary provisions\u201D\u2014and Schedule 1. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022025a2ccefeea45139bd0ec03b44a3515\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022025a2ccefeea45139bd0ec03b44a3515\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Notwithstanding that we are going to do this part by part during the committee of the whole House stage, I might make some introductory and overview comments. I\u2019m very pleased to be here today for the committee stage of this Customer and Product Data Bill. Sometimes it has been referred to as an open-banking bill. It is an important bill not only for me as the new Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs but also for the Government and for consumers and technology companies that are going to be the ones who benefit most from this legislation once it is passed through this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ETechnology has changed dramatically in recent years, and it will continue to change. So this bill seeks to create a framework that will ensure that current arrangements are up to date and that future arrangements can be accommodated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAt this early stage, I want to, again\u2014as my predecessor had already done but I want to, as the new Minister\u2014thank the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee and everyone who made submissions on the bill for their work in getting it to this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EJust by way of background, the bill introduces a very long overdue consumer data right regime to New Zealand, to make customer and product data accessible for the benefit of New Zealanders. At present, businesses that hold customer and product data are not incentivised at all to invest in better data sharing or the infrastructure that goes with it, and/or any agreements to the sharing of that data. They hold that data incredibly tightly, and that\u2019s been the historical position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo this means that, actually, it\u2019s very difficult for technology companies to negotiate contracts with those businesses that hold data, and that, in and of itself, limits innovation in our economy. There is also an area where inefficiencies and security issues with some current methods for sharing customer and product data mean that this is made difficult, and it\u2019s unappealing and it\u2019s risky for companies. Third parties under this legislation\u2014the so-called fintechs\u2014will need to be accredited to register customer data on behalf of a customer, and that will ensure that they have appropriate systems in place and that they\u2019re able to handle data appropriately. The bill includes a range of penalties to deter, penalise, and discourage non-compliance, and it\u2019ll be the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment that are the regulatory agency responsible for enforcing breaches, alongside, naturally, the Privacy Commissioner, who will continue to be responsible for breaches of the Privacy Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe select committee unanimously reported this bill back to the House, and recommended some amendments to the bill which I support as Minister. Some of the key amendments cover the areas relating to the adequacy of privacy protections, protections from liability, approving persons to develop standards, and accreditation criteria. Other amendments are smaller but important, and improve the bill also. I think the select committee\u2019s made some excellent improvements and some suggestions to the bill, particularly with the removal of requirements around the use, modification, and disclosure of customer data where it has carefully balanced the views of prospective data holders such as banks, prospective accredited requestors such as financial technology companies, and customers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAt the appropriate time, I\u2019d like to speak to the Amendment Paper that I\u2019ve introduced, and I don\u2019t think that\u2019s probably appropriate at this stage, other than to say that the bill, if it\u2019s to work as it\u2019s intended, will, by way of that Amendment Paper, make minor and technical changes to the bill\u2014for example, correcting the definition of a joint customer to refer to two or more customers rather than one. My changes are consistent with the existing policy reflected in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo, on that note, I\u2019m pleased to put the bill over to the committee of the whole House for wider discussion and participation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00225f2ec66efd174168b35e1b612a15871d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f2ec66efd174168b35e1b612a15871d\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Labour members are very excited to excited to be up to a stage to be able to give this bill a thorough going over in the committee of the whole House stage. It is important that we get that opportunity because this bill has had a long history\u2014a long history of many fathers. Congratulations to the Hon Scott Simpson for not only taking up his role as the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs but also being the next steward of this bill, which, as he says, is incredibly important to enabling not only open banking but also the good use of consumer data within our entire digital economy. This is a cornerstone of New Zealand\u2019s digital economy, and we have an opportunity here to be world leaders, to have the best settings for the use of consumer data, for fintechs, for innovators in this space, and it\u2019s an exciting opportunity for anyone to be able to lead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut it has that long list of fathers, and I would be remiss not to mention them. This bill was first under development under the Hon Dr David Clark and then the Hon Dr Duncan Webb. I also have the honour of being its only mother as having introduced it as a member\u2019s bill in the 54th Parliament, and there have been some changes since then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESome of our questions will be designed to draw out the differences between those bills, because a lot of this work has been done and it is cross partisan. It enjoys cross-partisan support now, but there are some differences in this bill compared to the work that was undertaken by the Hon Dr David Clark and some of those things are around penalties and around how we deal with the system when things go wrong. That was quite hard to test out in the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. You don\u2019t get people who show up at the committee and tell you about how the penalties will work, because the regime is not in action and these penalty systems vary greatly around the world and so no one really has had any benefit of seeing how these things play out under our settings. The only place where there has been significant litigation around these rights is in the EU, but they have a very different penalty system than ours, and I will traverse some of that when we get to the right moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI also want to thank the officials who have tirelessly worked on this for many years. This is something that sectors, like banking, have pointed to as a real roadblock for their development in their introduction of open banking, so we\u2019re very glad to have it to this place. None of us would be right in saying that it was easy. There have been many iterations of work that has been done on this. Thank you to everyone who has put in the work to make this a workable regime and a world-leading regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EOn Part 1, Labour members have a number of questions, but the first question I want to put to the Minister is around clause\u00A03. Clause\u00A03(1)(a) has a change in the scope of this bill. At various points of working through it and, indeed, through the select committee changes to this bill, there has been a huge amount of focus and attention on whether this should be about customers and, therefore, transactions, or whether it should be about people and the way that people can expect their digital data to be stored and used securely. In a digital economy, this is really important to get right because all of us will have varying degrees of interactions online that are not transactions but are with businesses. And New Zealanders can expect that the Government will play a role in this, whether it is just in the transactions and in the monitoring of the way that those transactions are conducted, or whether it will be in those broader digital interactions that are had for products that they might not perceive as products. The definition here has changed from \u201Cindividuals\u201D and \u201Corganisations\u201D. That\u2019s gone. It\u2019s been replaced with \u201Ccustomers\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe reframing of this bill as a customer product right from what Labour was developing as a consumer data right is a pretty large change in terms of what the scope of it is and what people can expect the Government to be creating here as a sort of framework going forward. But what does that mean? It means that, in applying it only to customers, it excludes this broader principle of personal data rights. That, I think, is probably a good change, but I want to test out with the Minister\u2014when global best practice for this has been developed in jurisdictions like the EU, where the consumer data rights went hand in hand with development of the law on personal data rights and when the courts, at various levels of the EU system, considered what the personal rights legislative framework should be alongside it, in not stepping into that space and not guaranteeing that individuals have some form of legal recognition in this, are we creating a system where there\u2019s just litigation to go\u2014that we\u2019re making the courts, actually, determine those rights? [Bell rung] Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bb7c4c942f449c09f262b1250501598\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222769673b69234a6bb9f17148d87a2dda\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s an expensive process. It\u2019s a long process. So I want to be sure with the Minister that when we\u2019re taking out the explicit purpose there of establishing a framework for individuals, we\u2019re not going to see ourselves back here needing to flesh out those rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s another point under this, at clause\u00A0(2)(b), where the bill, actually, still has the original framing around \u201Cimproving access to data about products in those sectors\u201D, and that \u201Cabout products\u201D has this implicit other side that it\u2019s products for people. Because, if you are using the consumer data, either in an aggregate way\u2014where you might be analysing people\u2019s data to, say, make risk assessments and to then provide better data to other consumers about the range of products that are on offer for them, which is still, you know, explicitly set out in the purpose here\u2014then you are sort of implicitly creating these rights for other people who are not necessarily customers now. They might be prospective customers. They might be people who are engaged in the system in another way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAnd I\u2019ll remind the Minister, just before I sit down\u2014I don\u2019t want to extend this call\u2014we\u2019re very excited about the application of this beyond just banking. This was never intended to just be about open banking\u2014and this will be very, very impactful, right now, with the issues of competition in the banking sector\u2014but we cannot forget that this applies to telecommunications, this applies to healthcare, and this applies to energy. There is real opportunity for New Zealand to step out into those sectors, which, frankly, around the world, have not enjoyed the ability to take up consumer data rights, because they have not had the empowering provisions that we do now. So let\u2019s not forget about them. Those are sectors where the customer relationships, the transactional relationships, that banking has are certainly not the same, and they are broader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec8bf68d79524d14ac125482abc56c46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec8bf68d79524d14ac125482abc56c46\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Honourable Minister\u2014but, just beforehand, I advise members this is now committee of the whole House. I might be banging my head against the brick wall, but we try to encourage question and answer sessions. I allowed the member to go over into a second session, but it would be easier if we can establish that relationship here, and I will endeavour, while I\u2019m in the Chair, to ensure that members get ample opportunity to keep that discussion going. So, rather than a series of speeches, we can have some discussion, but let\u2019s try it, shall we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022245d8608aeeb4298a3f11a903351d7aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022245d8608aeeb4298a3f11a903351d7aa\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, I appreciate your direction. Look, I want to engage positively and spontaneously with members as they ask questions, so I\u2019m looking forward to that conversation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe member Arena Williams makes a good point about the long gestation period of this piece of legislation. It\u2019s often said that success has a thousand fathers\u2014and sometimes mothers\u2014failure but one, so I\u2019m delighted to hear that the Opposition is still supportive of it, because I think it\u2019s clear that this is going to be a good piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe bill provides a framework. One of the aspects about New Zealand being relatively late to the game in terms of this type of legislation is that we can learn from aspects in other jurisdictions that haven\u2019t worked quite as well, and we can, hopefully, not replicate or repeat those errors, because we do want it to work appropriately here. So this piece of legislation provides a framework. The actual specific detail for individual sectors\u2014the first will be banking, then we\u2019re going to go to electricity, and then there are a range of other sectors that we can consider along the way, but those specifics will come in secondary legislation provided by regulations. Now, those will vary depending on the sector. That flexibility is important. The scope that the member referred to has changed, but I think for good reason, and for those reasons alone, in that it\u2019s designed to be sufficiently robust in terms of its overarching framework to then enable the regulations for each sector to be appropriate and targeted and responsive to that particular sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to just make a point about clause\u00A03(2)(b) about products, because a central aspect to the bill is about allowing customers, whether they are individuals or businesses, to benefit from the sharing of data. So the wording has been changed, but the purpose of the bill is to establish a framework to realise the value of that data for the benefit of customers, whether they be individuals and/or businesses. So I hope that that goes some way to reassure the member on that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022078b2542250942f8a55cb945a7b44f79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022078b2542250942f8a55cb945a7b44f79\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs for that helpful answer. It leads me to my next question, which is: what is the impact on non-customers of the change to clause\u00A03(1)(a), and then no subsequent change to clause\u00A03(2)(a)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4a24f842c354ff09550d8c62ea465e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4a24f842c354ff09550d8c62ea465e4\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Following on from the great introduction by my colleague Arena Williams\u2014and I hear the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u2019 point about establishing a regulatory framework in order to allow businesses that this might be opened up to into the future, which is what, as my colleague\u2019s explained, we\u2019re excited about, beyond the banking sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI wonder, then, if that\u2019s the case, with respect to in clause\u00A03(2)(c), where it says there, \u201Crequiring certain safeguards, controls, standards, and functionality in connection with those data services.\u201D if it is (1) the intention of the Minister to continually come back and update that regulatory framework through omnibus bills, through further legislation, or whether it\u2019s just simple regulatory change that can be done at another level; or (2) as my colleague\u2019s already mentioned, when we look towards what the penalties will be eventually, whether or not that will continue to need to be updated, reiterated, and of course debated in the House, given the scope of what the Minister\u2019s answer was with respect to opening up to other parts, other sectors, other businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOne of the big things that Kiwis know, and, I dare say, people right across the world, is that their data is key\u2014data is everything\u2014and, in particular, their own data. When we look towards how we can secure that data but, more importantly, how we can secure the public\u2019s confidence in the security and the use of that data, I want to make sure that they have that confidence that we have a regulatory framework that is agile enough. So my question directly to the Minister is with respect to subclause\u00A0(2)(c) in clause\u00A03 there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOther parts that are always interesting\u2014and when you look through the interpretation clause\u00A0in this particular bill, as you do at every bill, interpretations are exactly that. You read through them, and some of them are quite straightforward, but my question to the Minister is why we\u2019ve removed \u201Cderived data\u201D from there. While it might be quite a technical or straightforward thing, I think, to build the confidence that New Zealanders expect when we use data like this or when people access, use, and share data like this, it would be useful if \u201Cderived data\u201D and the explanation of why that\u2019s taken out is explained to the committee. Because, as I flip forward and see where it\u2019s been taken out, and that is clause\u00A033(3), it says, \u201CIn this Act, derived data means\u201D this. And I just wonder why it\u2019s been taken out. I think it\u2019s fair, as I say, to talk about the confidence that New Zealanders expect in this exciting and new and timely bill to make sure that we get these things right so that confidence is, of course, in our communities with respect to this now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb4a581e1b5544888df5b2c210621246\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb4a581e1b5544888df5b2c210621246\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to continue to focus on the purpose clause in Part 1. I was on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee that considered this, and it\u2019s a very interesting area, but I do worry that the public won\u2019t necessarily have caught up quite yet with the purpose of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIf we have a look at clause\u00A03(1)(b), which talks about the way that the purpose is to promote competition and innovation for the long-term benefit of the customer, I just wondered if you could explain for the benefit of the public what that long-term benefit that they\u2019re missing out on at the moment is and why it would be that something like this would free up innovation and competition. How has it been used uncompetitively to stop competition in the market? I appreciate that we have talked a lot about that in terms of something like banking, and perhaps the public are more familiar\u2014and that\u2019s a good place to start: I\u2019d love to talk about an example like that where people have come across those impediments in an area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut I also would love to be more specific about some of those areas that you see as the next targets. My friend Arena Williams has talked about the issue over telecoms in healthcare. In an area like that, what would the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs see as being the low-hanging fruit that would come next, and in what areas\u2014in something like healthcare, for example? I don\u2019t think that\u2019s something that the New Zealand public would necessarily look at and see as one that would be impacted by this, so I\u2019d be really grateful for an explanation of where you see the potential growth being.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also just like to pick up on my friend\u2019s question about clause\u00A03(2)(c) and the issues there around the safeguards in place here. That was touched upon a little bit, but what sort of safeguards are there in this legislation, and why is it necessary to have them? What\u2019s the balancing act that\u2019s been brought to bear in this legislation? Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00228d6f7d4479e349d48fcd8ad779cf143b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d6f7d4479e349d48fcd8ad779cf143b\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair; some good contributions there from the last three contributors. I\u2019ll work backwards, if I might. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe broader picture that Helen White has just sort of painted for us is really at the nub of what this legislation is all about. It\u2019s the potential opportunities for unexplored, as yet sometimes unimagined, benefits to New Zealand consumers. Because we haven\u2019t had a regime where data is open and available, there are many opportunities that can be explored that most New Zealanders will not even yet have contemplated. And I think that\u2019s the really exciting part about this legislation\u2014the vista that lies before us all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EJust think about, for instance, some of the ability to use personal banking data in a way that means that live real-time on your phone, on your device, information about your personal budgeting information that currently isn\u2019t available other than made by maybe Propellerhead people presenting and creating their own spreadsheet and what have you\u2014some people do that, I know, but most of us don\u2019t. So the ability to actually have access to that I think is phenomenal. But it\u2019s not just in banking; it\u2019s in a whole range of other areas, as the member has indicated, and is limited literally by our own imagination and limited also by the wit, skill, and ability of the enterprises that want to take advantage of it for our benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, there are issues, of course, around security. There are issues, of course, around reliability. And there will always be a range of considerations that any consumer has to take into account in terms of what they see as, essentially, features and benefits of what\u2019s on offer to them. So, look, we could go on for a very long period of time, and I\u2019m sure the Chair will lose patience, because he is a man of vast imagination. But I do want to just say that at present\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022907dd9bfa1de411a9fe7bdb17709a052\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: If little patience, is what you\u2019re saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2a22e8d504c439792b04fc05f72b40c\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: If little patience. But, at present, businesses that hold customer and product data, they\u2019re just simply not incentivised to release that data. Some of us of a certain age think of banks, for instance, that hold information incredibly tightly. Now, that information, that data, is actually my data as a customer of that bank. It\u2019s actually not the bank\u2019s data; it\u2019s my data. And how I choose to use that data in association with another entity is actually something that I think opens up a huge opportunity for us all. So I\u2019m excited by that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the type of thing that we\u2019re missing out on at the moment. I had an opportunity a week or so ago to go and address a group of fintech operators. They literally speak a different language to most of us, because they operate a version in their technology world that someone of my age and generation finds, frankly, quite hard to comprehend, but a teenager just gets it in a nanosecond. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b55a19d039b4d2f90acbb8bc1117283\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Stop them lobbying me!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b671d4bda2be4cecbadc4355bcd08dd2\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! So there you go on that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe Hon Peeni Henare asked whether the legislation will need to be updated as technology and change occurs or whether it will be by the regulation. One of the things that I think we\u2019ve learnt from international experience is actually that it\u2019s the broad framework of the legislation that we want to be stable and secure. It needs to be robust enough to ensure that security and certainty can be provided to consumers and customers, and that data actually does have some protection. But, by the same token, it needs to be flexible, nimble enough, and nuanced enough to enable the regulations to be adjusted should they need to be with the changing of technology. And heaven knows that technology is changing at a pace that means almost certainly that over a period of time those regulations will need to be tweaked. But I think that having that mechanism of framework in the legislation, sector-specific regulation that can\u2014as necessary and required\u2014be adjusted, is very good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIn terms of Arena Williams\u2019 comment, I think I covered that, I thought, pretty well in my first response to her question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022d537ad8fa76143219b53f2fd83ccc64f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d537ad8fa76143219b53f2fd83ccc64f\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Yeah, I\u2019m following on the conversations on clause\u00A03, on the purpose, but I wanted to connect them to the terms listed in clause\u00A05, \u201CInterpretation\u201D. First of all, can I just say that I really support, and our party supports, the change in subclause\u00A0(1)(a) of clause\u00A03 to focus on customers rather than individuals. But I think, to me, there\u2019s a couple of words in, particularly, clause\u00A03 that I do want to dig into deeper. First of all, because we do have in clause\u00A05 a list of terms that are kind of considered for interpretation, and in clause\u00A03(1)(a) we have the language \u201Ccertain data\u201D, I wonder whether the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs thought that that needed to be more granular or sort of not so open-ended, seeing as we do have other language in clause\u00A05 that is up for interpretation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe second question is on clause\u00A03(1)(b), and I know that other members have touched a bit on the language of competition. I also wondered, in terms of outcomes, and I wanted to raise a question and a bit of a challenge around why it is that particularly that part of the bill doesn\u2019t so much speak about outcomes for consumers, because the language is still about promoting things like competition and innovation, but the bill actually does not guarantee nor promote specific outcomes for customers. That, to me, I guess, makes the assumption that increased competition and innovation will organically lead to better outcomes, but I think, to me, without identifying some of the outcomes that are being promoted in this bill, I can\u2019t see how a customer actually would be reassured that, for example\u2014you know, banking\u2019s been used as an example, and I totally acknowledge the Minister\u2019s words and others that this bill will touch on a range of sectors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWhat are the specific outcomes the Minister is seeking as a result of greater competition and innovation, and, if he thinks that there are some specific outcomes that should be part of the purpose of this bill, were these explored in terms of incorporating them in clause\u00A03 and, subsequently, I guess, then being further defined in the interpretations in clause\u00A05. I notice in clause\u00A05, for example, we actually don\u2019t define competition or innovation. I know that perhaps that may feel like those are common-sense words, but, equally, somebody could argue that a lot of the terms in clause\u00A05, like data, may not need to be defined because those are also common terms that we use in an everyday life. I guess, for the clarity of the public and moving forward with this bill, I wonder whether he thought that, actually, the interpretation of innovation\u2014particularly innovation\u2014should actually be better defined, particularly around the outcomes that that may have for consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ETo recap, I\u2019m particularly focused on clause\u00A03(1)(a) on definition of \u201Ccertain data\u201D and then clause\u00A03(1)(b) around whether outcomes should have been incorporated. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9a8855959574317a9cbd52d212e8952\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9a8855959574317a9cbd52d212e8952\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The reason I asked the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs about whether non-customers are covered in the purpose clause of the bill is because, when we get to clause 4(4)\u2014where it\u2019s a really nice plain-language setting out of how the bill fits together\u2014it points straight to the secondary legislation, which will be designed on the back of this bill. If non-customers are not part of the bill and they\u2019re not part of the empowering provisions, then the secondary legislation cannot deal with non-customer data. If you are not a customer of the energy company and the energy company is seeking to offer a range of products to you or about people like you, it cannot be regulated by the secondary legislation that comes out of this bill. That is not the intention that Labour had when Labour designed this legislation to be very broad and empowering. What I want from the Minister is to take us through the change at clause\u00A03 that strikes out \u201Cindividuals\u201D and strikes out \u201Corganisations\u201D and what that will mean for the secondary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to come back to that in other parts, particularly penalties, because the penalty regime does seem to envision broader groups of people having access to some form of the information. And the Minister is completely right when he says, \u201CIt\u2019s not the bank\u2019s data; it\u2019s my data. I should have the ability to say how that data is used.\u201D He is completely right. That is exactly the regime that we have. And, in New Zealand, we have a really great opportunity to do more than the other countries we compare ourselves to in this space\u2014the EU, the UK, Australia\u2014because we have such broad legislation in some other parts of this. But if it doesn\u2019t let us make secondary legislation about the second layer of this data\u2014if a bank holds pieces of information about you that it uses to make risk assessments based on someone like you, we\u2019re not dealing with that in this legislation as derived data. I think that\u2019s a really good thing. But, then, how will we deal with it? Because the way that this bill was designed in a previous life would have seen that as being dealt with under organisations and individuals, people in the ecosystem who are not customers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWith the risk of running out of time, let me take you to my questions on the interpretation clause: \u201Cdeception\u201D, here, is a change. It\u2019s been defined using the Crimes Act definition, which is a very, very high standard. We\u2019re talking about false representation via documents or conduct. We\u2019re talking about the intent to deceive, and we\u2019re talking about knowingly not providing material that was key to decisions. This is a really high standard. It is also failing to disclose key information when there was a duty to do so. But while that failure-to-disclose bit in the Crimes Act makes sense in a lot of criminal contexts when there is a duty to disclose, under this legislation there are not necessarily points at which you would disclose. There are no duties along the way. So I want to ask the Minister why that change was necessary and why \u201Cdeception\u201D has moved up to this \u201Cknowingly or recklessly\u201D standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI also want to ask him about derived data. Look, we\u2019re going to come back to this. Labour completely supports that. \u201CGo for it!\u201D is the message that people in the industry should be hearing from us. We want really effective use of this, and the strength of this will be industry leadership on this. But the removal of that means that, in other places in the legislation where it\u2019s not dealing with the kind of information that comes from the consumer data, we need other protections in place. And I want the Minister to tell us about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI also just want to make the point that when we\u2019re talking about analysis, risk assessments, personalised recommendations, those would have been covered by an idea like derived data. It\u2019s good that it\u2019s not in the legislation. But how does he envision then, say, the penalties applying to people who are using those? And we want them to keep doing that. This is, obviously, a regime that is designed for people to create an extra layer from the data that they derive from consumers, and consumers in most industries will really want that and want to empower that. I also want to ask him how the derived data provision came into the consultation when many in in the industry see that as something which was introduced late in the piece when they were dealing with the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment for many years. I just want him to explain that to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00224192b3a78c94450cba591ea19a018ef3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224192b3a78c94450cba591ea19a018ef3\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Again, some good questions. I just want to go back on a couple of matters. There was a question about the definition of \u201Ccustomer\u201D and also \u201Cdesignated customer data\u201D. I want to draw the committee\u2019s attention to my Amendment Paper that is sitting on the Table. The intention in the Amendment Paper is to replace clause\u00A08(1) to redefine a customer so that \u201CCustomer means a person that has acquired, acquires, or is seeking to acquire goods or services from a data holder.\u201D I think that\u2019s a tighter, more improved definition. Then in terms of \u201Cdesignated customer data\u201D, the intention in the Amendment Paper is to identify this by replacing clause\u00A08(3) on page\u00A012 with the following: \u201CDesignated product data, in relation to a data holder and a provision of this Act, means product data that is specified, or belongs to a class specified, in the data holder\u2019s designation regulations for the purposes of that provision.\u201D So what we are attempting to do here is provide a sufficiently broad definition that, hopefully, will cover most, if not all, cases. Now, that\u2019s a little bit tricky in terms of trying to get that right, but I think that the Amendment Paper redefinition is helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to just comment quickly on the question of Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March relating to certain data. The intention there is that \u201Ccertain data\u201D, in inverted commas, covers customer data and product data. So it\u2019s a two-way street. So it\u2019s the product data and the customer data collectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThere was a question earlier on about safeguards. I neglected to provide the committee with an assurance that one of the key features in terms of safeguards is the accreditation process that exists for the fintech entities. Now, there is an accreditation regime in the legislation. I think that\u2019s a wise and good thing. So only accredited persons making requests will be accredited. Consent must be expressed and informed. So it\u2019s not going to be an entity just sort of telling you what\u2019s going to happen. The individual consumers and customers will have to express informed consent. And then there\u2019s going to have to be some clarification of the application in terms of the Privacy Act. So that\u2019s all part of this legislation and I think that the provisions of the Privacy Act are sufficiently robust to provide the certainty and security that citizens will be looking for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThere have been a couple of questions in relation to derived data. That is an area that occupied concern during the select committee process. There was quite a lot of debate about derived data and the potential that derived data would potentially impede the uptake and add complexity and costs to this new regime. Australia has a derived data process and the experience there we took into account in terms of drafting this legislation. In terms of the Australian experience\u2014and I referred to this earlier on\u2014one of our benefits of coming a little bit late to this legislation process is that it hasn\u2019t worked particularly well in Australia. It\u2019s been a negative experience. So the result at the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, after, I think, careful deliberation and conversation, was that the committee voted unanimously to remove it. So I think that covers that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002283796801e26d40519d5b5ff328a9f8fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283796801e26d40519d5b5ff328a9f8fc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I can see Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan is poised, ready for questions. We are getting close, so we\u2019ll take the lunch break now. The House is suspended and will resume after question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12.56\u00A0p.m. to 2\u00A0p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002287f50aafa89948b9b15f66b7e031ef25\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022420725fa8c404d479a829a09cbea2dfc\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u2014Question No. 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022edf5737f245e4dbbbde72221f3b5a1be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edf5737f245e4dbbbde72221f3b5a1be\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House is resumed. Because the chairperson of the Justice Committee is not present in the Chamber, Question No. 1 to members will be set down for next sitting day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c32d8c75b18a4a6ba15d6d52ea23b9be\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002236ad35a449c348cbbd769c8b3c2b8e66\u0022\u003EUse of Word \u201CLie\u201D in House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee1e40dfb2b940ba8558593715c30528\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee1e40dfb2b940ba8558593715c30528\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday, I gave an undertaking to the Hon Kieran McAnulty to come back to him and the House about the use of the word \u201Clie\u201D in the House. My initial response was that no allegation of lying was directed at any particular member. While that was accurate, I wish to reiterate existing Speakers\u2019 rulings that it is not in order to accuse members, specifically or in general, or to imply the motive of lying. It is an offence to the House as a whole\u2014Speaker\u2019s ruling 48/3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002238889d96304343aebef11846e5b99777\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab78be2cb95e4fd29d0641a90887ef72\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e49d8571d7546c48f3a90bad05a5c5d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022374f232d72ed44e2a2e9b34669b83b72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022374f232d72ed44e2a2e9b34669b83b72\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has she seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002222c6cf593e194919860f949fe73480c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222c6cf593e194919860f949fe73480c4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The IMF has recently been in New Zealand to conduct its annual review of our economy. Earlier this month it released its preliminary findings, and the IMF notes that inflation has been brought back to target after spending 13 consecutive quarters above the top of the target range. As a result of lower inflation, easier monetary policy will help growth pick up over the next two years. The IMF is forecasting growth in the New Zealand economy of 1.4\u00A0percent in 2025, rising to 2.7\u00A0percent next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b71306c35154c8a8b2f4d2eaa3348c0\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What does the IMF say about fiscal policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223e2ac2b90324369a0dc613c14ce6a52\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The IMF says that the Government\u2019s fiscal strategy \u201Cappropriately affirms its commitment to the necessary medium-term consolidation to support fiscal sustainability and rebuild fiscal buffers, emphasising prudent debt levels and strict spending controls.\u201D It says the fiscal strategy should include tax reforms, including to the corporate tax regime. The IMF also highlights the growing cost of superannuation and says that changes to KiwiSaver could help achieve greater private retirement savings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220060cc7f57b4491fb6910558c86d987c\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What does the IMF say about other policy areas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c1304032dfc4e34a5d82da8df8779c7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The IMF makes a special mention of housing, which is a priority area for the Government. It says that bold reforms are needed to free up land supply, incentivise efficient land use, and ensure adequate financing of local infrastructure. And it specifically references the Government\u2019s Going for Housing Growth programme. The IMF also highlights ongoing policy work to amend and eventually replace the Resource Management Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ffa6b8a00f94ac68e3d4764e773bbe1\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What does the IMF say about productivity growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3118f3ef88d47c2ad98371964dba32a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The IMF says that productivity growth requires a comprehensive approach. It mentions refreshing competition settings, reducing the restrictiveness of the foreign direct investment regime to attract capital, accelerating capital markets development, encouraging innovation, and establishing a stable, long-term pipeline of projects coupled with the prudent use of public-private partnerships (PPPs). The Government has work under way in all these areas. And I would note that the IMF is clear on its approach to PPPs\u2014unlike some people I could mention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f46a8e148d4d4acf829406c2e8c0f6d9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00222ccf7f61225a4885a2dec207c263a6f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ccf7f61225a4885a2dec207c263a6f4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7c8f8c38b3748589d55d31b1b319dc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7c8f8c38b3748589d55d31b1b319dc8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220742f90b0ba74123aadcc5a68acbd141\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement, \u201CWe are very proud of what we\u2019ve done on emergency housing, and it\u2019s been a really good outcome.\u201D; if so, are more or fewer people homeless now compared to when he became Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e873e045f23f41d18d02453e5afe600c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I can say is that from the data we\u2019ve seen, we\u2019ve actually seen that households that have been in emergency housing have dropped from, I think, 3,141 when we came to power down to 591. Most excitingly, we\u2019ve taken 2,000 children out of living in motels and put them in proper homes. I think the member would, in the spirit of bipartisanship, want to say that that was a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de640b8e2dfd4aeaa2a906c9839c8de1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Is he very proud of the fact that the Christchurch City Mission has reported an increase of almost 60 people living on the street in just one single month, including an eight-week-old baby living in a tent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227253f03822c84f249d4a8b27c7fe8e43\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we have more work to do on homelessness, but what I am proud about is a Government that, starting on 1 April, put a very active management policy in place to take a number of households out of motels\u2014that was a shameful legacy from previous Minister Woods and the Labour Government, and I\u2019m very proud of the progress that we\u2019ve made. In a short period of time, we\u2019ve got results and put 2,000 kids into proper houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abf9a1d5dd2b49ce8fbea7a2ef4b2d13\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he see any relationship between the fact that there are 690 fewer households in Auckland in emergency accommodation now than when he became Prime Minister, whilst the number of people sleeping rough in cars, on the streets, or in parks in the city has increased to 653?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ca7bccfe7ca441fa5226c14ae45df26\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would just say to that member that his Government\u2019s legacy on housing was abysmal: a 50\u00A0percent increase in homeownership, $170 per week increase in rental property, a fourfold increase in the social housing wait-list to over 25,000 households, and thousands of people living in motels when they shouldn\u2019t have been there. This Government is dealing with housing. We have taken 2,000 kids out of motel rooms, and you should care about that, and you should be proud about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6d14facb32f4c5ea57c76a0913fa603\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Whilst I do indeed care about all of the issues that the Prime Minister has just catalogued in his list of complaints, it didn\u2019t actually address the question, which was whether he sees a relationship between the fact that they booted 690 people out of emergency accommodation in Auckland, whilst there are now 653 people living rough on the streets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b640cc0e760f4bfcb4286df6eaa345f6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let me just make it very clear: while there is the sort of barrage going on that there was during the answer to that question, it\u2019s hard for me to make a determination like that. But I will\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a956bd194e774911b0927d533a441e51\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Further point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224776a6e6fa9b42fab0e63fd1f3ae6e1d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, well, I haven\u2019t finished, so you can\u2019t take a point of order\u2014give a man a chance to breathe! I will ask the Prime Minister if he would like to address the question as it was asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232275065baed428ab601f24e546c128e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, I am very proud that we have actually moved families out of motel accommodation and emergency housing, and 80\u00A0percent of those families have gone straight into proper housing. That is really important. For the other 20\u00A0percent, we are actually available to help with any housing assistance that is needed. But I am proud, because that was a shameful, shameful result from a Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022669c63a6ad2c42e59917679fe3266d42\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he see any relationship between the fact that there are 351 fewer households in Wellington in emergency accommodation now, compared to when he became Prime Minister, while the number of people rough sleeping in cars, on the streets, or in parks in the city has increased to 464?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248238a8b70814ffcacfb8a7c36ae78d8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We have continued work to do on homelessness, but the answer of carrying on with the policies of the past and not putting 2,000 kids into proper homes\u2014instead, raising them in motels\u2014is unacceptable to our Government. So to move from 3,100 households in motel accommodation under the member\u2019s last Government to where we sit today, with 591 households in motels and 2,000 kids moved out of them to proper houses and homes, with community housing providers and K\u0101inga Ora houses because of our active management of the individual cases, I\u2019m incredibly proud about. Is there more work to do? Absolutely, but I am proud of what we achieved in a short period of time versus six years of a Government that purported to care about housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0708f268d4c429c940289f384ccc3e4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Prime Minister describe how difficult it was for the new Government to deal with the crisis in infrastructure, education, health, and\u2014dare I say it\u2014housing, when what we were confronted with was 133,000 net immigration brought in by the previous Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db77e6bb2fa04c03838cfa590d017b5b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, my point very clearly is that Labour\u2019s biggest public policy failure was in housing, whether you\u2019re buying a house, renting a house, on a social house wait-list, or in emergency housing\u2014they failed on all four counts. Our Government cares about people; we want them in proper homes, and that\u2019s why we\u2019ve done the work to methodically go through household by household, get into the data, and actively manage cross-agency and get these families and kids into proper houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226be9911d428144d7818b16a505a44336\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Which of the following is he most proud of: a family of six living in a Portacom, a 75-year-old grandfather sleeping on a slide, full-time workers and students living in their cars, or the hundreds of additional people living rough on the streets because his Government decided that that was preferable to them living in emergency accommodation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d06620d4c252404dba9e262b5da8a3aa\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I completely disrespect the characterisation of that question. I am not taking any lectures from that member or the Labour Party about housing. You had six years to fix it. You had three years with an absolute majority and you did a poor, poor job. That\u2019s the reality of it. The Labour Party used to care about housing and people getting into housing, but you didn\u2019t care about it in your six years and you didn\u2019t deliver results. I know it\u2019s bad and you\u2019ve probably got regrets about it, but you did a poor job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aa4697794764d1b896519f189bdae38\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker\u2014point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b19321ed5754962bf342598e7e41e36\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order, the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins. Could I just say for the member, the barrage going on is not at all helping in both the order and form of the House and leaves me with a great difficulty in assessing whether a question is answered or addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cb590619a214962b593f55ebaa80218\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Every single one of my questions has been about the actions of this Government and the consequences of them. Every one of the answers has been about the Prime Minister\u2019s alleged views on the previous Government. I\u2019d point out that every single one of the families moved out of emergency accommodation into State housing was only possible because we built record numbers of new State houses. But he\u2019s not actually addressing the track record of his own Government. The reason that you\u2019ll get a heightened response from members on this side of the House is that the Prime Minister seems far more interested in talking about the last Government than his own Government, which has resulted in hundreds of additional people living rough on the streets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b89a4c0e8c54a09b72f742f04fdd9f7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s a very interesting point of order, with a number of facts put before the House in that. Can I say that the Prime Minister\u2019s statements today are not alleged, because he\u2019s making them and we\u2019re all hearing them. The second thing is that it is appropriate\u2014and I\u2019ve said this before, because former Speakers have asserted this\u2014for a Government to refer to situations that they inherit when they come into Government. It\u2019s not appropriate to attack. I haven\u2019t heard attack. I think, with regards to the claim that the Prime Minister is not accounting for his Government, I\u2019ve heard him cite numerous things that his Government is doing. Point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e261dfeaa1d1400792d9a5730fa1b9ae\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: A supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c04fd07fcad4e6383517c029f29f861\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A supplementary\u2014the Rt Hon Winston Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f414776bd0d416fafb3a99e79a8dda1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How were the four needy groups outlined by Mr Hipkins in his last question assisted by trying to find housing, accommodation, emergency housing, hospitals, schools, and infrastructure for the 133,000 net that the previous Government brought in that we inherited? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f629cdd38374771a5c58d244b606076\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on\u2014hang on. We haven\u2019t even had the start of an answer and we\u2019ve got people under way. Show a little bit of basic courtesy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5222a8a012e4a6cb8ea9f4ae23c5493\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with the member. We inherited an infrastructure crisis\u2014we\u2019re working our way through it. But my frustration is this is not an issue to politicise\u2014this is not an issue to politicise. We are getting families out of motels into proper houses\u2014that is the reality of it. Eighty\u00A0percent of those families in households are now in proper homes and houses. You can politicise it, but you shouldn\u2019t be doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e451b6592ae47cbb5bd55e56ddbaa5b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did his Government remove the requirement for the Ministry of Social Development to consider whether declining an emergency housing application would risk someone\u2019s life, welfare, or cause serious hardship?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266e7a2d44289416295774e11c35c0fd7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I am proud of the work that our teams have done in a cross-agency way to make sure that we are clear that the people that have access to emergency housing can get it. I am also proud of the fact that, actually, if anyone needs any help, there are housing support and subsidies available to support them, and our Government remains open to support those that have left emergency housing but haven\u2019t reached out to ask for our help\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229484ce3c427146ce965f5e406ed22a15\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226222d10ce64240549e3b2d3b6406194a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and we continue to do that. But I am not going to take lectures from that member about housing when it was an abject failure of the last Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eda4e1dbb3b40c19bc462410d551d58\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister, in his previous supplementary answer, accused me of politicising the situation when every one of his answers has been political. But my question was why his Government had \u201Cremove[d] the requirement for the Ministry of Social Development to consider whether declining an emergency housing application would risk someone\u2019s life or welfare, or cause serious hardship.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s a direct quote from the reporting of the decisions that the Government has taken. I\u2019ve asked him why they made that decision, and instead he\u2019s just given us a catalogue of things that his Government\u2019s done that have nothing to do with the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a045782dcdc417e8b11b9b67e69387f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there are a lot of things that are said in this House that are only vaguely relevant to what\u2019s going on, but the point I note is that the Prime Minister did say\u2014because I was listening for it, thinking that you probably would raise that issue\u2014that the process remains open to people who seek help to receive that help. Now, that seems to me as certainly addressing the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb5bb6f5e0dd4e8f8a10ab95d16beb84\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. It doesn\u2019t give any answer. I mean, you could say, \u201COh, there\u2019s a process.\u201D The question was why the process no longer requires them to consider whether declining an emergency housing application will risk someone\u2019s life, welfare, or cause serious hardship. These are pretty serious issues, and I think it\u2019s not unreasonable to ask the Prime Minister to respond to why the Government did that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210ca1ee2303445a0938f5078acb15cb6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is a serious issue, and the member will also know that that is a process point for the department that actually runs it. If you\u2019re telling me that there is a Government missive somewhere, then perhaps quote that missive or table it, but in the meantime, the question\u2019s been addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296e1e4dbb4b94f33b7ce1cb7a89f5e36\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Government, the Ministers are answerable to the House for the actions of the entirety of the Government, including Government departments, regardless of where the direction came from. The Ministers are answerable to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b9984fb53fd4a6ca7bff7753bacf224\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know. Let\u2019s be very clear: what I\u2019d just ask you to do is to establish that the action\u2019s been taken. I can\u2019t judge that. I can only judge: has the question, as it\u2019s asked, been addressed? And it has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289acaf1d3a3e489e93d16fe9e817c451\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Prime Minister, of course, is free to say that the Government hasn\u2019t taken that action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022856b9097df0c4288b17a46bd0803e8f7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Of course he is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3cc0ca4681643d5a2e874989e4587bc\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, then, he would be misleading the House, but he hasn\u2019t done that either. He hasn\u2019t answered the question or denied that what I said is true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c19b00e418524b14836a504d3d1a99b6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sit down, don\u2019t take it any further\u2014don\u2019t take it any further. Because while it is quite possible to suggest in a question that an action has been taken and then require the Minister being questioned to account for whatever is said in the question, that is not in all cases reasonable. My judgment simply has to be: has the question reasonably been answered? And that\u2019s what I\u2019ve judged. I\u2019ve invited the member to at any point table the action that he\u2019s referring to in a question so that it becomes absolutely specific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf4ba390c8e34d1a823bf31af5c31d01\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: New point of order, Mr Speaker. So are you indicating that every single question that we ask in a supplementary question must be authenticated by you? If so, could you give us a process to do that before question time? It\u2019s going to make question time somewhat farcical if every time we ask a question, you require an authentication of what we\u2019re asking. No previous Speaker has done that. All members, including what you have just reiterated at the beginning, your ruling right at the start of question time\u2014all members are taken at their word. So unless you\u2019re saying that I\u2019m wrong in my question, or the Prime Minister is saying I\u2019m wrong in my question, the Prime Minister should answer for it. Ministers are answerable for the actions of all of their Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f55b9f37570d4a9dbc73ad0df2e3ee54\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d127242179f49fc88c0ba30939d3455\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022406339a2e41a488ba33030c8258616ce\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, can I\u2014I could help you out here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a22744726365411cb109d87412241b3e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just\u2014well, I would really hope that it is helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dda51f261f8e4ae3bd913f01e2b61694\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it\u2019ll be helpful; that\u2019s my intention. The reality is that we\u2019ve had these sorts of debates over decades with far more acute minds having an open debate, but if the contest here is because somebody gets upset because of their lack of mental acuity, that is surely not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225dcf14ffe8946a3badf3f762d755be2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, leave that\u2014leave that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022127b5c5940194303832341ac1089ecdf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022491aa1cf439a4290bf529c5dd69772e7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just\u2014hang on. I\u2019m now going to\u2014you can bring it up in a minute. What I want to say is that I wasn\u2019t making any particular new ruling in that regard. I was simply pointing out to the member that if he expects a particular type of answer to a particular question, then it would help if there was something to refer to. I can\u2019t know what is right and what\u2019s wrong. I can simply judge: has the question, in the broad context, been answered? That\u2019s been a ruling in the House for a very long time. I remember having that recited to me numerous times by the Hon Margaret Wilson. Would someone want to speak to a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225737e0cfd131418e83297c59eea6417a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, point of order, Mr Speaker. You indicated yesterday your frustration at the Government members making personal attacks on people asking questions, and you said you were going to take a zero-tolerance approach to that. We\u2019ve now had the Deputy Prime Minister abusing the point of order process to do exactly that. Did your words yesterday mean anything?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225786cde89dbe40dea9cb786ffa37189d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is an interesting way in which you put that, I must say. So for those who are watching, you\u2019ll be quite surprised by my bumbling around on this. But the reality is that it\u2019s seldom there is a challenge like that. But what I will say, quite clearly, is that if there is another attack on the other side as a result of an answered question, the person making that attack will be leaving the House for a period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f33ade3961a417094efa3a6a731b43b\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I just wanted to draw to your attention, and maybe it\u2019s the fact that I\u2019m a bit closer to the action today, but I heard the Hon Phil Twyford direct a very unparliamentary remark towards the Prime Minister in the last question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022311257fbc7d24f2bb81758402c4e9059\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, OK. Does the member want to respond to that in any way? I\u2019m sorry, I didn\u2019t hear it, so I can\u2019t act on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220844e15b601746a0971fc885e58c3b14\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I can certainly share that remark with you, if you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c379d8423644862a0001d936cd4cba1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, why would you want to repeat an unparliamentary remark in Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f71b82baa0641ad8434e53912e86f52\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Because, as in normal Labour fashion, he\u2019s not taking responsibility for his own statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022786d1b6806d847a1965ccc21ba637e5b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll tell you what, I\u2019m absolutely sick of this. It\u2019s schoolyard stupidity and it\u2019s got to stop. So we\u2019ll now go to question number\u2014oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff646350aa3c4f3999743ed395ea78c0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. In your most recent ruling, you said that the next member that used a point of order or a question answer to make a personal attack on members opposite would be leaving the Chamber. Mark Mitchell just did exactly that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b1e8ef138a148ca90deb6367cb8e282\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m sorry, you can\u2019t rewrite the Hansard script. I said that answers to questions that contain those barbs would result in that. It\u2019s legitimate for members to take points of order. Some of them are completely hopeless and utterly stupid, but members do it anyway. I\u2019ve got a high level of tolerance for that level of contribution to the House, because, often, it just allows a little bit of pressure and, I suppose, steam to be let off. Are there any further questions from the member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b421d6c3913a4d9d937a333ee675b272\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I appreciate the clarification that you have made for this side of the House in answering questions. I am concerned, though, Mr Speaker, about what has been tolerated from the other side, that has been more direct in challenging your role than I\u2019ve seen in quite some time. I would request that that is also taken into account, in terms of the response on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022516ddf7cbe894e9ea362e43a63735762\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you. I\u2019m not sure how the two are connected. I don\u2019t feel like a shrunken violet at the present time. So we\u2019ll carry on. Debbie Ngarewa-Packer, question No.\u00A03. [Interruption] Questions are heard in silence. That means there are no conversations going on around the House while a question\u2019s being asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba36a06993dd40a28b79a4c7f11dc577\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014RMA Reform\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u002251a63385f8f54820986cb286249cfa27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251a63385f8f54820986cb286249cfa27\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for RMA Reform: What is his reaction, if any, to the Kaiwhakahaere for Ng\u0101ti Ruanui\u2019s statement regarding proposed changes to the RMA that \u201CThis move breaches both our settlement and the Government\u2019s obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00227ed9001e1068458c949deab759370b7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ed9001e1068458c949deab759370b7b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister responsible for RMA Reform: I can confirm that the Government is committed to upholding Treaty settlements, particularly through this reform. We will be working with iwi M\u0101ori as we work through how the new resource management legislation can uphold these important settlements. The Cabinet has explicitly agreed that upholding Treaty settlements and related agreements is a principle of the reform of the Resource Management Act (RMA).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022706a55be6f054d2bbe841375172a49d4\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Can he explain how meeting with Te Pou Taiao regularly gave him the mandate or the permission on behalf of te iwi M\u0101ori to remove Te Tiriti o Waitangi from the RMA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c319e1ef7e904912a80764eabc1af490\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I disagree with the characterisation in the member\u2019s question. The Government is interested in a descriptive clause to uphold Treaty settlements rather than a generic one, and we intend to keep working with iwi M\u0101ori and Te Pou Tahua to deliberate on the details of how that is achieved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227928189f1a69443b879c5b214af495a9\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he see Te Tiriti o Waitangi as a barrier to progress in Aotearoa? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022337476904bad44dc8c7d697bc2295735\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I don\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bfb3b60ec824a87a700d99b933b991a\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the existence of a Treaty settlement between Ng\u0101ti Ruanui and the Crown does not hobble, does not prevent this Parliament\u2014a reflection of democratically elected representatives\u2014passing legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268a190f1d8314506aa2e09695bdefda8\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291ba328104a74af0913688262cd9fec5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Would it not be normal in this House, if you were a former employee and a member of, for example Ng\u0101ti Ruanui, you would state that potential conflict of interest before you asked the question? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a10bb4751ea44febaa0fb1097943ea67\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c99d1610ced348e9b68d1454bcd95903\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c99d1610ced348e9b68d1454bcd95903\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, there\u2019s no need to take a point of order. No, that\u2019s not the case. A person\u2019s interests are published annually and are well understood by the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccf313752f74413ab21501b6d8ee7594\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Did he forget to tell the Minister for M\u0101ori Crown Relations about his plan to remove the Treaty clause from the RMA, or was the Minister for M\u0101ori Crown Relations not listening?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b32a6a9dccbb4329a56bb251a2d8758b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I can confirm that Minister Potaka, who has acknowledged that he was part of the Cabinet decision to progress this policy\u2014the questions put to him yesterday caused confusion because they implied that there would be no clause in the RMA replacement relating to the Treaty. That is not the case. In fact, what is the case, which was not represented to Minister Potaka in the initial questions, was that as per the coalition agreement with New Zealand First, the Government is currently reviewing all generic Treaty clauses in legislation, so it would be inconsistent with that to add a new one. Instead, the Cabinet\u2019s preference is for a descriptive clause that specifically upholds Treaty settlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec829b7618f6422292df198abf6c1bb7\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he ignore the expert advisory group\u2019s recommendations that the new RMA legislation should contain a Treaty of Waitangi clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022028ba7777bc144f7b74e4259a2ae3091\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, as I\u2019ve said, as per the coalition agreement with New Zealand First, the Government is currently reviewing all the generic Treaty clauses in legislation, so it would be inconsistent with that to add a new one, and we believe there are better ways to uphold our Treaty obligations. And we further note that the problem with generic Treaty principles clauses is they are open-ended and amorphous and they create uncertainty and legal risk for everybody, M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori. There is an opportunity, through the development of a more descriptive Treaty clause, to really spell out everyone\u2019s specific roles in the system, and I would encourage iwi M\u0101ori to work with us as we progress that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd36663f13fb42f9861a82e9c6583fd8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022563cfe3a1b8243a186693f0abca6f343\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022563cfe3a1b8243a186693f0abca6f343\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: How is the Government progressing with its plans to restore stronger consequences for crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00223ec95054a05141bcbff15aca15e1de2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ec95054a05141bcbff15aca15e1de2b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is making great progress. Today the Sentencing (Reform) Amendment Bill was passed. This piece of legislation will put more serious offenders in prison for longer, to prevent them creating new victims. It does this by a range of sweeping changes to the Sentencing Act, including the capping of total sentencing discounts to 40\u00A0percent, stopping repeated discounts for remorse, and the addition of new aggravating factors to restore real consequences for crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abfcf9bacd634bfb9232de8c2abb9b7a\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What is significant about the Government\u2019s reform of the Sentencing Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b457a486cfb429a9a6177686ef1047e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s a significant milestone in the Government\u2019s mission to restore law and order, and fulfils a range of commitments made in the coalition agreements. We promised to stop excessive discounts at sentencing, and we\u2019ve done just that. Undue leniency undermines public confidence in sentencing and our justice system as a whole, and it\u2019s an important step to restore confidence so New Zealanders can feel safe in their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022868869ab25b440e5bee34bbdfa06f662\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with comments that prisons do not make our communities any safer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1f4ddd8698742cdaaf2e131012191a1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t agree with the Greens on that issue. Some people, particularly serious violent and sexual offenders, need to be kept out of circulation so that they can\u2019t create new victims. I haven\u2019t been surprised that the Greens have opposed this; I have been amazed that Labour have chosen to oppose this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e294b2bea3145869f5abdfcf7a6a7b1\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What positive commentary has he seen on the Government\u2019s plans to restore stronger consequences for crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022060257089d6b465f81796b9e4e6716ff\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this morning I heard a comment on the radio about the success of the Government\u2019s legislation that gives police more tools to deal effectively with gangs. That quote\u2014\u201CIt\u2019s gone a lot better than everybody thought it would.\u201D\u2014is from Ginny Andersen, and I thank her for her kind words and I look forward to the member\u2019s similar comments on the sentencing bills to come in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb53ee82843443a688f939ee71f8f90d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that was as close to flaunting the earlier ruling as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3cd1e4748f64e33b5bbfe143b0217b8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00226fd2695538fa4ca4a1dfad07d630db03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fd2695538fa4ca4a1dfad07d630db03\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does she agree that the Treasury is the Government\u2019s lead economic and financial adviser; if so, does she have confidence in advice from the Treasury?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022db351a4d14ef4f8796ca6a3ff6193da8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db351a4d14ef4f8796ca6a3ff6193da8\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, yes. I also take advice from a range of other agencies and advisers, including the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, on economic issues. In answer to the second part of the question: in general, I do have confidence in advice from the Treasury. However, that does not mean that they always get everything right, and, like, many previous Ministers of Finance, I do not always agree with Treasury\u2019s advice. I do not believe my role as the Minister of Finance is to be a rubber stamp for the Treasury, and it is safe to say that I am not one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f4c42ac5b85423b9eea9c2eba2c3c7e\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2019 characterisation of statements made in the context of Treasury\u2019s pre-election fiscal update as being a \u201Clitany of lies\u201D, and, if so, what was factually incorrect in the pre-election fiscal update?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aea432fddbee4733b5302515bcfba52b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I seldom have cause to disagree with Deputy Prime Minister Peters, and I have observed that the leader of the New Zealand First Party has a particular way with words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213053495fa4b4f87bf39de91baf83781\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Rt Hon Winston Peters when he said the recent recession was the \u201Cdeepest and longest economic downturn and recessionary retraction for over three decades.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e8221389ab45b7814b04a10565c378\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I agree that the recent period of economic history has done untold damage to households up and down this country, and the characterisation presented by Mr Peters is one that is familiar to far too many households\u2014a period of sky-high inflation, a period of debt accumulation by both the Government and the private sector, a period of soaring interest rates, and a period of economic contraction and job loss. It\u2019s been a very painful time, and I think it would be a callous soul who would disagree with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a97f85c552e41a49f72f28971f81a90\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree that the Treasury did not forecast a recession in the pre-election fiscal update, and does she accept that the recession only occurred in 2024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b78ecca4b8a74224811df06007d91148\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Treasury got its forecasts before the election plain wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224596b7ef096f47d09f5ed10b46012790\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister of Finance: if the Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Update of September 2023 did not, for example, disclose the iReX blowout in terms of the ferries which happened nine days later\u2014and there are countless fiscal cliffs like that\u2014how on earth could it possibly be honest as a forecast of the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a8ee678d2364ad38ad2390fb301daf8\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the pre-election fiscal update reflected both inaccurate forecasts and the poor fiscal habits of the previous Government, which included fiscal cliffs, short funding, and doing all sorts of things to make the books look better than they actually were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228404c5c9e566490795083e4eae4cebba\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How was it that the Treasury did not forecast a recession prior to the election, but her Government delivered what the Deputy Prime Minister called the \u201Cdeepest and longest economic downturn and recessionary retraction for over three decades\u201D, and do you trust the Treasury advice now? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ddfd6275f064a4185a8ccb708a0f12f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Because, as I have just said, the Treasury got their forecasts wrong. As they themselves have acknowledged, they have had to steadily unwind the assumptions that they made during the term of the last Government, which were over-optimistic. What I take responsibility for is fixing the sheer economic carnage that was left to us by the last Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022335e19a9c1814edc9ba8a57c4a17c1ca\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022be6dce7a89fd465b8f46454669785479\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be6dce7a89fd465b8f46454669785479\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00228bbc8b683fd7422ea178ae8dcda75f2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bbc8b683fd7422ea178ae8dcda75f2b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b0cb00a924746e6a351a5a727d9a425\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement yesterday that \u201CProfit is a good thing.\u201D in the context of public-private partnerships, and, if so, how much private profit is he comfortable with the people of this country forking out for, on top of the base cost of providing public services and infrastructure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233cde10edb064d5195bf1af417a53f3a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question: absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b92a444b9fc849c68287df6ef75d3f5f\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister says, \u201CProfit is a good thing.\u201D, does he mean the $1\u00A0million in excess profits a day made by the supermarket duopoly, or the record billions in profits made by banks and the energy sector that a former National Government partially privatised, or something else?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d492c16208e423db81859e8e918938c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I mean, I actually am stumped for words because the Green Party is a degrowth party and the thought, I think, in that question, of Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick ever being a finance Minister in a Labour-Greens future Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca60dc2644b74d89aa6675084b1a5b02\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, that\u2019s enough. Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df428e3ebb7545d9966b9638c9460b03\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Send him out!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022510b3b4195434a12998733928211e0c6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not the case. Thank you for your advice. But what I will say is if you ask questions like that, you\u2019ll get a political answer. And you may not think it\u2019s a very political question, but it most certainly was. Now, please ask your next supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233722b120a75458f8b63c4e512a820c6\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: How much private profit is he comfortable asking New Zealanders to fork out for his public-private partnerships because he refuses to unlock domestic capital by fixing our tax system, which currently incentivises unproductive speculative investment in housing, recommended by known degrowth institutions like the IMF?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264105cf4d3654d74bc16f8dee12c0aa4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what I\u2019m determined to do is to make sure that we actually build infrastructure in this country. This is a country\u2014over many decades now\u2014that has suffered from low economic productivity. It is a country that has suffered from capital thinness. Just look at our relative performance in the OECD at attracting foreign direct investment to New Zealand\u2014and we have a major problem. So we make no apologies for accessing private capital\u2014whether it\u2019s overseas or domestic pools of capital\u2014to get things built for New Zealanders. Because if we can build more roads, more hospitals, more schools, more wind farms, more renewable energy, that is a good thing for this country and that\u2019s what we need to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022529a79ddc8004ffebc0b68950062b420\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Prime Minister, has his Cabinet decided to review all over the world where Das Kapital still works, and do they as a Cabinet intend to take on those economic theories?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221a3317351b540e98117aa3c6b8b8211\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: It would be safe to say that we are not proponents of Das Kapital or Thomas Piketty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e43907013864bc09cbf945c1ab66754\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: How much private profit is he comfortable asking New Zealanders to fork out for his public-private partnerships because he refuses to fairly tax the wealthiest New Zealanders in this country, who currently pay an effective tax rate half that of our nurses, our teachers, and our firefighters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d913ef63f914833a105c740487437ce\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I am determined to get things built in this country. If you ask the question, \u201CWhat do we need to do to improve economic productivity and to lift the standard of living for all New Zealanders?\u201D, there are five things. We have to have a world-class education system; we have to embrace more science, technology, and innovation; we have to have more modern, reliable infrastructure; get rid of the red tape; and embrace trade and investment. Those are the five things that are proven consistently to lift economic productivity and the standard of living for all Kiwis. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022712755f5558a4543ab6ac043efb79a82\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government refusing to invest in publicly led, publicly funded, and publicly operated infrastructure, given that we all in this House know, given the reports that private companies, when they get involved to make a profit, it costs more for New Zealanders in the long run?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200783127d6fa4a6b9659c68aea4e4307\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, there are so many assumptions in that question, but I just would reassure the member that this is a Government spending a huge amount of money on capital investment. We are pummelling more money into health. We are putting more money into education. We are opening up and spending more monies on core infrastructure. But it\u2019s an \u201Cand\u201D\u2014\u201Cand\u201D we want to access capital so that we can actually get things built faster and quicker rather than just relying on our own balance sheet at this time in a country that is already capital-thin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aedbadaa802643f68da9ff60db953414\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that his Government inherited a green fund\u2014the green fund hoped to find fellow investors who hoped to make a profit from clean green energy\u2014and since the disappearance of James Shaw, what has changed about that group over there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8635ff0e211418b96a6f7a9a4a8eb87\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, the last part of that question is definitely not answerable, but you may answer the first part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba8a8134315b4f01a74dcc9f4113f2a5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s fair to say that we\u2019ve got some serious concerns around the performance of the Green Investment Fund, and I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll have more to say about that shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cc1181f4dcb4b2eb34781b68d290ddf\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s his message to the tens of thousands of New Zealanders who own their own small businesses or are self-employed and get out every day to deliver good quality services to their customers and hope at the end of the day to make a profit in order to feed their family, today, in this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210a60123b1c64cc3b3b4543a15945f7c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I want them to know that we appreciate them. They are people of ambition and aspiration. They take a risk, they use their own capital to go off and build a business, to employ thousands of people\u2014that is a good thing. We want to reward that behaviour, we want to encourage it, we want to see a lot more of it\u2014more entrepreneurship, more innovation, more investment. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223f504d7bc444913b435e0f88aa738a7\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022330d3f1682ee45e2ac08961b8e22cda5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute. I think the House needs a moment to settle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e406a011bda4948848a4f6f8bb4b152\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Mori Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000535\u0022\u003E\u0101\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00222fd4902336444a12ad1707ab3872a10d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fd4902336444a12ad1707ab3872a10d\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for M\u0101ori Development: Is he across everything in his portfolio; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6e3d21a73d34dfca8c3ce52edf9642d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6e3d21a73d34dfca8c3ce52edf9642d\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister for M\u0101ori Development):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I am, and I certainly hope that the member is across his remit as the Labour social development spokesperson, the M\u0101ori development spokesperson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c71da7b957b4fa8aca33fc1c78207a8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good\u2014no need for that last statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6c76922d044479da2424cc5d809d2a8\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister say he was confused and didn\u2019t know anything about the Government\u2019s changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA), when Chris Bishop said he did not know why Tama Potaka was unaware of the removed Treaty clause when he had signed off the Cabinet paper?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e597a3347cfa45f29203d418eb0c7210\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Some journalists have mischaracterised the proposed resource management legislation as not having a Treaty clause, but Cabinet has committed to pursuing appropriate protection of the Treaty, including Treaty settlements, rights, and interests, through descriptive clauses, not just another generic Treaty principles clause. I look forward to engaging with my senior colleagues, and M\u0101ori and iwi leaders, on ensuring the recognition accordingly\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205471d82aa99413db4c97aaac760d454\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute. We\u2019re about to go into an absolutely silent question time if that sort of racket keeps up. It\u2019s completely unacceptable, and no one watching this or listening to it can for a minute imagine that their votes are being well represented at the present time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229420139ffec74ef5ad16d73b13c10bde\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Minister Tama Potaka, is it the case that you as Minister are across everything, and not just cross at everything?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d191a8e970f40c896e2f6da47c710a2\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f7e1302c51644e497ee0cb825b642bd\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister confused about the Government\u2019s position on the Treaty principles, given that he has approved the removal of the Treaty principles clause in the RMA reform?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cda8ca3375c842de9403d36e6e3d3ae9\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022722e2e22ff534806b1126ef732aa3d45\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister read the Cabinet paper titled Replacing the Resource Management Act 1991, published in October 2024, that said, \u201CA perceived erosion of the M\u0101ori rights and interests recognised and provided for in the RMA could create significant challenges for the M\u0101ori-Crown relationship.\u201D; and, if so, what feedback did he provide, if any, to his Cabinet colleagues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a021f4ea1524bf9871c08c7dd7e1d40\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question: yes, and a number of other papers, including those that state that this Cabinet and this Government is committed to ensuring appropriate recognition of the Treaty, Treaty settlements, and other rights and interests in future resource management legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222262574088e14e3893dc7983828a5cb0\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: How can M\u0101ori have confidence in him when his own ministerial colleague Minister Chris Bishop has said, \u201CI don\u2019t know what\u2019s in Tama\u2019s head. But Cabinet has made a decision to not have a generic Treaty clause in the RMA.\u201D, or is he so far down the food chain he\u2019s simply given up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c7841cd8cbe4fc6832fb1bdefb937b0\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, shame!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022273873c3de6545b294f53870f93ef435\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014on trying to advocate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b38b6e785874adfb35123374e0c2240\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Come on! Shame!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dfe1d1147f045db98c19f9356b8ac9e\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for M\u0101ori interests?\u2014shame on you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeaf9e1daa164e21abd895822ccd8806\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good. Well, we\u2019ll just let that question fly by, unless the member wants to reword it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230d7ff104c46448c960d833949115cf3\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. How can M\u0101ori have confidence in their Minister\u2019s advocacy of M\u0101ori interests, when he embarrassed himself by not knowing what he had signed off on, or is he overwhelmed with the anti-Treaty agenda of this Government and has simply lost track?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209a2eebfb5c64b9abae30c8c1e40025e\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Once again, I think that the member mischaracterises the position of this Government, as set out in the coalition commitments around Treaty settlements and a number of other matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3ce9df95d27413f8d9717b5bc4f9a10\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Too much extravagant language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022338a5d7cf2b94e0885b847914ead5855\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, shoosh up, Jonesy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fd0241b42894e2a906cf5fd78805452\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209d1c5861e864b60bcb8e06184c95646\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s just not getting the publicity of your leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221262d1f08cb342c6bac727a2d6641742\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You all right, now? You all done?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d0e120927924ba1b6457580e63c07c5\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m all done. I\u2019d like another one, but I\u2019ve run out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e338da8f635f4e72b10701a9e509a7ee\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good. We\u2019ll just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220452ae01de8d4859a8b903c452b83625\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: No more rhetoric, Willie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c6ed8f77426491fa26c26d402d48280\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on\u2014Shane, it\u2019s not the end of the year, for goodness\u2019 sake. We\u2019ll go to question No. 8, Sam Uffindell\u2014in silence. Well, he can speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002209b8f294a18d4194bc89b4013f494a18\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022f39ec744e8884fec9adaa082a8ebe465\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f39ec744e8884fec9adaa082a8ebe465\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What recent announcements has she made about the Annual General Adjustment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6dc78675f804ad18c91dd329d2cbb86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6dc78675f804ad18c91dd329d2cbb86\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to confirm that from 1 April this year, most Ministry of Social Development payment rates will increase through the annual general adjustment, or AGA. This is great news, as more than 900,000 superannuitants and almost 5,000 veterans are amongst the Kiwis set to receive a significant financial boost from next week. This increase will help provide relief from the cost of living, with an increase ranging from just over 2\u00A0percent to around 3\u00A0percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9ba289d9f9540749b873624c847244e\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: What is the total number of New Zealanders that will receive an increase?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e68bff3e948f403b8a7da129db55d549\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: About 1.5\u00A0million New Zealanders will get an increase: 409,300 main beneficiaries, 47,400 students will see an increase in their allowance, 70,000 non-beneficiaries getting supplementary assistance are expected to be better off, and, as I mentioned earlier, over 933,000 superannuitants and close to 5,000 veterans will get a boost to their superannuation and veterans pensions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221741c42e1d874fd78ed07fbfaabfab4d\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: What will be the impact of these changes for seniors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c33e072d4c64034a98210475685a957\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: People getting superannuation will receive an extra boost this year, with their total increase being about 3\u00A0percent. This is so that superannuation remains at 66\u00A0percent of the average wage. Superannuitants have been doing it tough in recent years, and this change will have a material impact. A married couple who both receive New Zealand superannuation will be better off by approximately $25 per week, and a single person living alone and receiving New Zealand superannuation will be approximately $17 a week better off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eee69f2983e04bc58d3091867577b422\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: What other initiatives have been implemented to support New Zealanders with the cost of living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209fb5c44a525466a8247e2f693ca31a9\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: In addition to the upcoming AGA payment increase, the Government has introduced other initiatives to support New Zealanders. For instance, the one that stands out for me is FamilyBoost, which has provided financial support to over 51,000 households by helping with the cost of early childhood education. As of last week, this initiative has injected nearly $32\u00A0million into the pockets of low and middle income families, further assisting people with their financial challenges. These initiatives demonstrate our Government\u2019s ongoing commitment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a4943dc567e48b2a976007df5764e80\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3cb7bc299284d1699a6ebae7e7a649f\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to supporting New Zealanders through challenging economic times\u2014and it\u2019s a real pity that the other side of the House doesn\u2019t recognise the very real challenges that some New Zealanders are going through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9b32c266a724ba8aa5e446f8d2d1871\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe1fd788112a424e99a2d4b4bfa9e6da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe1fd788112a424e99a2d4b4bfa9e6da\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Does she stand by all her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00229182d1d816a140368f248cefd12870c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229182d1d816a140368f248cefd12870c1\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were made at the time. I especially stand by my recent statement regarding the review of privacy practices at Oranga Tamariki, which came about after a high number of serious privacy breaches in 2022 and 2023\u2014that, while the issues covered in the report predated this Government, they could not be allowed to continue under our watch. I also stand by my statement that Oranga Tamariki has not had any serious notifiable breaches in the last 12 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb3499516b064d408446db3b33ade574\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: What is the reoffending rate for the military-style academy pilot participants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022584170fa911a4ad9b6873badb7cd5771\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: My position remains the same as it has been over previous questions in this area. To protect these young people from the pressure of public scrutiny and to maintain their privacy, I will not be providing play-by-play information on their circumstances. Oranga Tamariki will be providing public updates at appropriate intervals, and I will confirm that all nine young people are still participating in the pilot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022019d34b5309843baa2df590f40e1c4f9\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was, \u201CDoes the Minister stand by her statements and actions?\u201D Now, unless the accusation was that the Minister herself has been reoffending, I don\u2019t see how that supplementary linked to the primary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf814cdb657d4f18b25857ba85357941\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think the word \u201Cactions\u201D gets you there, but I think the answer perfectly dealt with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212e7a146bcd344fa8b99c69443e314f5\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: How can she say that it isn\u2019t in the public interest to provide the reoffending rate when eight out of the nine participants in the pilot have allegedly reoffended?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ef13551aa914c3f9c0667770895112d\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to be confirming any numbers, and I am not even going to say whether that member is right or wrong. I will continue to say that there are reviews that will be released at appropriate intervals, and they will be made publicly available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203c08a75f67547d6bfc53001908c8dd7\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Why hasn\u2019t Oranga Tamariki released the reoffending rate given they work collaboratively with the police and they know the rate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271238fc5f8834f3b85557c016549a7fb\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: This is a pilot that is currently still running and is under review, and as the review goes through, there will be statements to be made at appropriate intervals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf22405eb81469983509e59693754ac\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Has anyone in her office indicated in any way to Oranga Tamariki that information about the reoffending figures should not be released?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022450569eb3acb4b8fba2f97df6b75d365\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Oranga Tamariki is of the understanding that they follow my instructions that these young people\u2019s privacy is the most important thing, and making sure that we\u2019re taking care of the wellbeing and the safety of these young people comes first and foremost before anything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022212068581f154b53a01a7c57dd211665\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u00229bee2913efb34068aafdcedf8d338ce7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bee2913efb34068aafdcedf8d338ce7\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What recent reports has he seen on the effectiveness of the community beat teams?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00224549f3b0302544769695914f941b6b8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224549f3b0302544769695914f941b6b8f\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to report that our community beat teams are doing an outstanding job. Last year, for the first time since 2018, we saw a year-on-year decrease in violent crime. In Wellington CBD, when comparing 2024 to 2023, we\u2019ve seen a 5.5\u00A0percent decrease in violent crime. In Christchurch CBD, we saw a 4.7\u00A0percent decrease, and in Auckland CBD we saw an 11.5\u00A0percent decrease in violent crime. I want to thank all our outstanding beat officers for their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec604c6161274547beb76683afcb9c8f\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister see community beat teams strengthening trust and confidence in police, given the success?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b546408d81742b6af41b0679cfe328d\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: The decreases we have seen in violent crime aren\u2019t just numbers; each of those is a victim with a potentially life-changing trauma. Seeing our police officers on the beat provides reassurance, and the feedback that I\u2019ve had from our beat officers is that they\u2019re loving the increased positive contact with the public. It was nice to see this year that public confidence in our police is on the rise again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a29a224b46414452a7ea7f943dbd76a3\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: What have CBD businessowners shared with the Minister in relation to community beat teams?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2a2a0cafe3440f4a849a09540b7b038\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been lucky enough to be out on patrol with our beat sections in both the Auckland and Wellington CBDs. A couple of examples: in Wellington CBD, a shop owner that had two entry and exit points to his shop that he had to close in recent years because of the rate of retail crime; in working with our beat section, for the first time he\u2019s been able to open both those doors again to his business. Another businessowner in Wellington said an overnight change on the streets, with police walking past, was making their staff feel safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e23c39047574177b63b43048ae17427\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think that a strong visible police presence is what communities are asking for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205c7c673bbf14de9bfb551bb573e6cd9\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Undoubtedly. In the letter of expectations that I sent out when I became police Minister, I noted that police need to be highly visible in communities and providing assurance. Police have responded extremely well to this, and both the public and police are enjoying increased presence, positive interaction, and reducing crime rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8796f593735454e8b42182d95979180\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any submissions from MP Tamatha Paul saying that police patrols are just a waste of time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269e772d0a09640329e5c561764d3d667\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve seen reports in the media and comments from members in this House that we do not need a police force, and heavy criticism of our police. I just want to say in the House that I\u2019m extremely proud of our police service, I\u2019m extremely proud of the people that serve in our police force, and I\u2019m extremely proud of the work they\u2019re doing to protect the communities they serve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243ba2b60588241a58ae7ef1b900b4b05\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: While that question was answered, it was in the nature of an attack on a political party and not at all desirable. It was, none the less, asking a question that was directly related to the in-tray of the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5082c90057c4af49731d76192136ba2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00222f89356cbb74441289174fd720fcb6fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f89356cbb74441289174fd720fcb6fd\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does he stand by his statement regarding record levels of methamphetamine in waste-water testing, \u201CWell, I don\u2019t know whether that\u2019s dealers dumping methamphetamine\u201D; if not, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00227c1bbdd7ce74400abe9c276fbe99e61d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c1bbdd7ce74400abe9c276fbe99e61d\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. From personal experience as a front-line police officer, it was common practice for gang members to try and flush drugs through the waste-water system\u2014sometimes in large quantities\u2014if they were at risk of being caught. So, as I\u2019ve stated, I wasn\u2019t sure if this was a contributing factor. I\u2019ve been told that the current testing would not detect large quantities of dumped meth-related product. We have inherited big challenges in relation to restoring public safety, including meth dealing. This is why we\u2019ve been hitting the gangs so hard\u2014because they are big drivers in the supply and control of meth. To underline this, the recent takedown of the Barbarian Mongrel Mob in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki has seen a reduction of meth detected in waste-water testing. I know we have a problem and I\u2019m focused on dealing with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9e0f5bffd104397ba30af3c0d9c5578\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What has driven an \u201Cunprecedented 96\u00A0percent increase in methamphetamine consumption\u201D when comparing 2023 to 2024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238b4714d2b244328ad75331adf845ee1\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think policies like giving the Mongrel Mob in Hastings\u2014the biggest peddlers of meth\u2014almost $3\u00A0million was not helpful. I think, without a doubt, that the 501s coming to this country has been a big aggravating factor. They\u2019ve got big global networks, they\u2019re well organised, and this is a big issue and problem for us to deal with. That\u2019s why you see this Government coming out with gang policies and gang legislation that just about everyone in the Opposition would not support, or is opposed to. We know that we\u2019ve got a methamphetamine problem\u2014this is a global problem\u2014and we\u2019re very focused on dealing with that. This is not a new problem; this was a problem that we inherited in terms of the use of methamphetamine. The last aggravating factor, of course\u2014as I\u2019ve mentioned today\u2014was the fact that we\u2019ve been through tough economic times for the last two or three years. We\u2019ve had inflation that\u2019s been high for far too long and we\u2019ve had interest rates that have been high for far too long. This creates immense pressure on households and, often, people seek ways of trying to escape that reality, and it\u2019s through alcohol and it\u2019s through drugs. We are working hard as a Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3ab5dd1161c4f9e934bcdd160396171\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c70b2aa4d1bb4d28b84bbb1af111c793\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to make sure that we\u2019ve reduced\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a061eb4c7b7413d958ea2631aac1b0b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f492c40f3774f45a8cc664c798e801c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014inflation, we\u2019ve reduced\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8da633c5d16457da141ad4315846f79\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s in answer to a question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f27d37d89cf04fdf883787acf85da4f5\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014interest rates, and we\u2019re reducing that pressure that is on those households that is driving that sort of behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba14bb48619b423c9225719da5d7065b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s enough. Please don\u2019t give an answer of that length again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022708032a6d82e45d181d14c064163d4a5\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that \u201Cwe\u2019re getting drug dealers off the streets,\u201D when drugs and waste-water testing results for 2024\u2014the past year\u2014show methamphetamine use has doubled? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb83f6ddf8c14f55a09b1afee2fc8455\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we are getting drug dealers off the streets, and I\u2019ll point to two operations: one was the takedown of the Comancheros\u2014the entire chapter of the Comancheros\u2014in Christchurch, and the other was the outstanding police work in the Bay of Plenty, where they took down the Barbarians Mongrel Mob in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki, who were a wrecking ball in that community and had been taking over the town and causing all sorts of issues. As a result of that, we\u2019ve seen a reduction in methamphetamine in the waste-water testing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252bc5fad82c74bd3b5aef348e82aebb6\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Did he just say that waste water has reduced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a92c185623f40c09b06957e8881005f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256875d4390984580a4099e1a7c3870a6\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister just said that waste-water testing methamphetamine has reduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236348d8046b640b8b658f8a07f464b3a\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d9d078d076b40bd9762473a37971b96\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s not my job to do\u2014tell me, what was\u2014[Interruption] Sorry, what\u2019s the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad22f1f57aa4fa0a6fa379e15cc546b\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019ll move on to the supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5e098df846b4ef082fbc4f4feb17b0c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, don\u2019t waste the House\u2019s time with those sorts of trivial points of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a566f42eb0304e03a39d8e7edc8c1846\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Police advice that reducing methamphetamine use would reduce gang violence and family violence, and, if so, why is he not prioritising an action plan to break the cycle of crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022210d0fe81370406fa2dc92e790abdffa\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course the reduction of methamphetamine would reduce violence right across the whole of society. It\u2019s a wrecking ball for us as a country, and it has been since when it first entered the country several decades ago. This Government is heavily focused on dealing with the drivers and the dealers of this methamphetamine\u2014the peddlers of the misery\u2014and that is the gangs. So we\u2019ve introduced a whole lot of new legislation that\u2019s proving to be very effective for the police to use. It\u2019d be nice to have some support from the Opposition, instead of their having to belatedly admit and concede that, actually, what we\u2019re doing is starting to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236b983eb6afe4ccd9bca5b0a43b7210a\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Will he admit that business is booming for the gangs, with methamphetamine use on the rise, gang numbers up, and police officers leaving faster than he can recruit them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022070f52e7f6f345038e7d76c44e3b32e8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: More Ginny facts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d39240d5efab4aa0acfa233a7442493c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014more Ginny facts\u2014the reality of it is this. It is that we\u2019re doing very well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228176c9e68cce420d90317bf144ab699e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no\u2014start again. Sorry, start again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bc08578cddb423c95c3bd83550158ee\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the reality is this: actually, the police are doing an outstanding job with recruiting, and, actually, we\u2019re starting to see some police officers return from Australia who want to come back. We\u2019ve now got an outstanding Commissioner of Police in place who is doing very good work, and I\u2019m very proud of the work that our police officers are doing. As we came into Government, we inherited an environment that was very permissive for the gangs. They\u2019d been operating with impunity. That has changed\u2014that has changed. We\u2019re putting enormous pressure on the gangs. We understand the problems and the misery that they peddle\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214f96b03a2874b17959222674a49bd47\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yep\u2014good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220496a0a366da44198c143cf0bfb98b5c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and that\u2019s why you\u2019ll see the pressure continue to ramp up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d1dbc1839a64d3d9e2df83cffa626ca\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u00224196e894deba4f559743d3ecb229b04c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224196e894deba4f559743d3ecb229b04c\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by his statement that \u201COur Government is focused on delivering timely, quality healthcare for all New Zealanders\u201D; if so, has he contracted the build of the inpatient building for the Dunedin Hospital yet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2b4936c5e9c4342b0910d71b970b9dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2b4936c5e9c4342b0910d71b970b9dd\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Health: Yes, I stand by that statement. This Government is committed to delivering timely, quality healthcare for all New Zealanders. In January, we confirmed that a new Dunedin Hospital in-patient building will be built on the former Cadbury\u2019s site, with a total project budget of $1.88\u00A0billion. On opening, it will provide 371 beds, 22 theatres, and a significantly expanded emergency department to serve Otago and Southland. Health New Zealand is actively progressing the next stages of the project, including detailed design planning and contractual negotiations. As the entity responsible for delivery, Health New Zealand is responsible for ensuring all necessary steps are taken to advance construction in a timely and fiscally responsible manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc86e86405f7425c810b487a698a6925\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned that Te Whatu Ora has found that insecurity about Dunedin Hospital\u2019s progression and repetitive resets could lead to staff loss and workforce project fatigue; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba0fc647bdbd49f88e059fa6ea87c3b8\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, Health New Zealand is aware of the uncertainty that some staff are feeling while it confirms next steps. Health New Zealand will continue to provide support to staff and keep them updated where it can through regular communication channels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cca7d09cf3ba4504893807dc4d722ba9\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that his failure to deliver a timely and much promised Dunedin Hospital could see an exodus of specialists out of Aotearoa New Zealand, which could jeopardise future infrastructure projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252dc55df5fcf4fafade4228f1e913526\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, this Government has given the people of Dunedin certainty that we will build a new Dunedin Hospital that will futureproof the provision of timely, quality healthcare for the Dunedin community and surrounding Otago and Southland regions. This will be a new, modern hospital, and the announcements are clearly delivered within the fiscal budgets that we have available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a89ce6eb73ec4b0d80de8b6484772dce\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How exactly does he think that delivering Dunedin Hospital through a complex public-private partnership will deliver more timely and quality healthcare?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248cbd85c70b649af972bf4fcbb0c5d98\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: The primary question in this was about the delivery of the project, and I can confirm that the delivery of the project is on track, and commercial negotiations are ongoing for the main contract and inpatient building for Dunedin. If there\u2019s more specific questions the member would like about health services in Dunedin, he\u2019s happy to put those questions to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d63cbb5a06614b15b1c60d1589a3c06b\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Would Crown borrowing to fund Dunedin Hospital be faster, simpler, cost New Zealanders less, and be less risky than public-private partnership arrangements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261f09672c1cc4a498e57161f019c5876\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d3cdab603a04f73a5edcf602ae09feb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That concludes oral questions. While members leave the House quietly, those who have duties elsewhere, I call the Hon Peeni Henare. If you\u2019re leaving the House, don\u2019t have conversations on the way. Move off swiftly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a8702e81d23d49c4bcad8a02f4be7f97\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002205e128e6dbed4b6fa1b495692e50fb57\u0022\u003EPrivileges Committee Report\u2014Conduct of Hon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce4f90f2a5fd4dcc89ad31f2e44d293d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce4f90f2a5fd4dcc89ad31f2e44d293d\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to make a personal statement to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d23b38754c7e40218a7dadd70446f205\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d1d2a6a359a4b20956e46d37bad772e\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I acknowledge the report of the Privileges Committee and apologise unreservedly to the House for acting in a disorderly manner that disrupted a vote being taken and impeded the House in its functions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022018ccafe1b704d2b9638010089533859\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022018ccafe1b704d2b9638010089533859\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Customer and Product Data Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228be260501a4740329030b68eb322d455\u0022\u003ECustomer and Product Data Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022774fa1e91e4d45e88c64efff85568140\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000651\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002213b94a54fa204ceea7beeeb79b2e1a26\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f54bfd1634364aca81cf85424a9d598a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f54bfd1634364aca81cf85424a9d598a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Customer and Product Data Bill. When we suspended for the lunch break, the committee was considering Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 13\u2014\u201CPreliminary provisions\u201D\u2014and Schedule 1. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00224de7546bb9ff40cab3cc805b65d5f604\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224de7546bb9ff40cab3cc805b65d5f604\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Before the House broke, we were having a very useful discussion with the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs about the replacement provisions for derived data, which are set out in his Amendment Paper 254. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI want to ask him if he could give the members of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, who spent quite a long time agreeing in a cross-partisan way to the removal of derived data, some comfort that the new designated customer data provisions really are in the spirit of that cross-partisan agreement. There was agreement all around the table from the ACT Party to the Green Party that derived data, as it was framed in the bill, was not going to be workable, because we wanted the industry to hear from Government to go for it, to go for broke, to build out solutions, and to innovate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo I want the Minister to step us through how the new provision will mean that industry still has all of the abilities and the empowering provisions in the legislation that they need to get things done and to not be hindered at all by the new provision. I\u2019m thinking here particularly of the major accounting firms. The select committee had a really great submission from Xero about how derived data had just slowed things down in the Australian regime in a way that did not ultimately benefit consumers and certainly did not step out privacy rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EA really useful part of the discussion was comparing how New Zealand\u2019s privacy rights are really great. They\u2019re a great framework for industry to work with. They\u2019re a good principles basis for Government to also work with, and it means that we have an advantage here. We have an advantage of long-established law and well-understood principles about privacy that we can build from, rather than having to sort of build out two regimes as we go, and confuse the issue of transactional uses of data or the privacy protections that need to be in place for other sorts of uses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m keen on this idea, and Labour is still in principle supportive of this, but given that we are supportive of it but we\u2019re also supportive of the whole select committee\u2019s view that derived data had no place in this regime, can the Minister assure everyone that that commitment to cross-partisanship here is being honoured and that there won\u2019t be an unnecessary slowing down of creating the useful products that derived data would have otherwise brought in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI want to ask the Minister just to address the questions about how derived data came into the consultation. Many in the industry felt that it was late in the piece that it was introduced, especially when they\u2019ve been engaging with the officials in good faith for a couple of years before the mention of that. It did really spook the horses; it felt like a new regime being built. So we want to know that this is not that by stealth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00225aafe3bd77e141a494546748f5046f5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225aafe3bd77e141a494546748f5046f5e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have a different line of questions for the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs regarding clause\u00A03 of Part 1 of the bill, which is under \u201CPurpose\u201D. I wanted to start with clause\u00A03(1)(b) around \u201Ccompetition and innovation\u201D. Now, going through the regulatory impact statement, we have seen a number of instances where the consultation was done with the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), which is understandable. However, what I couldn\u2019t see\u2014and this is a concern\u2014is any consultation that was undertaken with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT). Now, the reason I ask this question is, sure, there\u2019s been a lot of information within the regulatory impact statement around what other countries are doing. We know, for example, the EU is particularly good when it comes to data protection, whereas the US is particularly bad at data protection. However, as we see through a number of our international trade deals\u2014such as the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA), the NZ-UK Free Trade Agreement, and the NZ-EU Free Trade Agreement (NZ-EU FTA)\u2014each of them will contain a digital economy chapter which, then, pertains to how data can be held accountable within those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe reason I mention that, in the context of this bill and particularly under the purpose clause, is\u2014and we can go into further details later\u2014around the fact that, for example, under the TPPA, there are specifically clauses about the ability for Governments to be able to challenge or to be able to create that competition under that particular trade agreement. Now, understanding we\u2019re looking at the broader context of trade, in those kinds of cases, we have seen instances where big tech from the US has been able to use free-trade agreements (FTAs)\u2014or particularly digital economy and trade parts of an FTA\u2014as a tool of creating a monopoly or creating uncompetitive behaviour in certain marketplaces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOne of the examples that\u2019s currently happening right now, although it\u2019s not within our Aotearoa context, is the fact that Musk is currently suing the Indian Government for non-competitive behaviour, or for discriminatory behaviour, under certain trade agreements. So my first question is around whether the Minister has any clarity or clarification on whether MFAT has been consulted, in the context of this particular bill, specifically under the digital economy chapters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, following on in the same vein, the question that you mentioned, Minister\u2014and I think it\u2019s a really important question to ask\u2014is: it is my data, therefore I should be able to be able to use it in a way that I want to. However, that data sovereignty also is questionable under international trade deals and agreements, particularly from the perspective that in certain trade deals\u2014and, again, I go back to the TPPA and the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, which doesn\u2019t exist, thankfully, under some of the newer ones like the NZ-EU FTA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFor example, in certain trade deals, we are not, under those trade deals, allowed to have that data being held onshore. In fact, there are certain trade agreements where we can\u2019t even hold that data or have a copy of our own data onshore, because there\u2019s no need for there to be an onshore presence. So, in this particular case, when the Minister is talking about onshore data and my data, what reassurances does the Minister have, from various consultations, that the data that we are holding under the requirement of this legislation, indeed, is allowed to be held onshore? Another example is the NZ-EU FTA, which, now, does allow us to hold a copy of that, but, again, there is no specific requirements for the original data centre to be held onshore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe last question I have for the Minister is around clause\u00A03(2)(c) in terms of \u201Crequiring certain safeguards, controls, standards, and functionality\u201D, and I particularly want to hone in on the idea of third parties that are authorised, because, again, we have seen instances where, yes, although the data is being held by a particular company or a particular provider, but the data system itself\u2014for example, let\u2019s say Google or Meta, etc.\u2014the data is not within the jurisdiction of those particular companies. So when we\u2019re looking at creating safeguards, controls, and standards, does that mean that the liability is held within the companies themselves, or, originally, will some of those data collections or those kind of big tech elements ultimately be liable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAgain, in some of our trade agreements, there are certain clauses that mean that big tech companies are not liable for violation by a third party. So those are the three questions I have for the Minister: has there been consultation with MFAT in terms of consistency with our trade agreements? I know it\u2019s quite a big concern in terms of the MBIE-MFAT interaction in this case. When we\u2019re looking at my data, I can choose to use it in my way. What does data sovereignty in the context of this bill mean, and does that, again, come into conflict with some of the issues we see with our trade agreements? And, lastly, when we\u2019re looking at third-party safeguards, controls, and standards, is this to do with the company that holds the data, and what happens if the companies themselves don\u2019t hold the data but the data is being moved to a third-party provider\u2014i.e., a big tech?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002234570c461600425aa33ab8b170e68bf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234570c461600425aa33ab8b170e68bf9\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I want to just cover off on a couple of the questions that have been asked by members who have clearly been giving good and considered thought to this part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI just want to go back to the derived data question that Arena Williams raised, because it is interesting. I want to make it very clear that my Amendment Paper actually doesn\u2019t reintroduce derived data into the legislation. The Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee made it very clear that for a variety of reasons it needed not to be included. But what the Amendment Paper does do is it clarifies the designated customer data as the specific types of data designated through the regulations. Now, what all that means is that the regulations contain the detail, not the legislation. The regulations have yet to be completely drafted, but they will be commenced and put into place before the legislation can be enlivened or switched on, if I can put it that way. We\u2019re hoping to have that process for banking completed well before Christmas this year. So that\u2019s the timetable plan on that. I\u2019d also refer the member, if she wants to go into more detail on that\u2014and I realise that sometimes the vocabulary and the language that is used around this sort of stuff is quite complicated and quite detailed, but the departmental report specifically relates to these issues and specifically paragraphs 73 to 77 of the departmental report refer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThere were also some questions about privacy rights. Well, of course, we have been careful to put into the legislation provisions that ensure that the Privacy Act is maintained and that, I think, provides the safeguards that the member will be looking for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ELawrence Xu-Nan asked some questions around the role of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade\u2014had they been consulted. What I can confirm is that the officials working on this bill have consulted very widely indeed and that no issues of the sort that he has questioned have arisen. So I take that to mean that, from an officials\u2019 point of view, no matters have been brought to their attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut in making that point\u2014because I think he raises an interesting question about trade agreements and the international scene and so forth\u2014data doesn\u2019t have geographic barriers. Data is data. What the barriers are are technical barriers. They are system barriers rather than lines on a map around the planet. So those are matters that we will have careful consideration of in terms of the regulations, and those will differ depending on which sector is being considered. The whole purpose of this legislation is to create the framework and then have separate regulatory constructs for each of the individual sectors that will then come under the purview of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAnd, of course, in terms of third parties\u2014well, a key feature of this legislation is the accreditation process and that will be watched and monitored very carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9d272bc368543e79657ce9fbc692d5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9d272bc368543e79657ce9fbc692d5f\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u2019 answers to these questions, and I want to pick up exactly where he left off with respect to the third-party matters. As I look at Part 1, clause\u00A05(2), it says in there, \u201CIn this Act, a person is involved in a contravention if the person\u2014\u201D, and then it goes on to explain it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI also recall the comments made by my colleague Arena Williams around the definition of theft\u2014or deceit, was it? I think it was deceit\u2014in the Interpretation, and it\u2019s quite clear because it\u2019s in the Crimes Act and it makes it quite clear. So I wonder, just to be very specific on this one, if a person is involved in a contravention\u2014and, so it says there, \u201C(a) has aided, abetted, counselled\u201D, and we\u2019ve talked about third parties\u2014I wonder, then, if deceit is considered deceit and it\u2019s quite clear in the Crimes Act, whether or not anybody is involved in a contravention, as described here, why that doesn\u2019t fall under what would be considered deceit or, if you\u2019re a third party, as it says there, has aided, abetted, or counselled. Just some clarification on that because this is to the point that we\u2019ve made\u2014and a number of speakers have since we\u2019ve started the committee of the whole House on this bill\u2014around the confidence that the public have on matters of their data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EBefore I resume my seat\u2014because that\u2019s the very specific question I have for the Minister\u2014I just want to acknowledge the Minister\u2019s comment about how his data is his personal data. I know that a group called Te K\u0101hui Raraunga have done a lot of work on data sovereignty, so I\u2019m heartened by those kinds of comments from the Minister to make sure that there is data sovereignty and that that kind of information that is owned by us, by people, by real people. Accepting the Minister\u2019s definition that there aren\u2019t any hardline boundaries on these matters; as he\u2019s also stated, shop fronts, if you will, have changed in ways, shape, form, and nature. Once, you used to have to go to a bank; now, you can do it all online. You used to have to go to a shop; now you\u2019re accessing it through different portals online, etc. So it\u2019s really important to understand, while there might not be those geographic boundaries, if you will, that we do operate in a world, in a time, and in a space that isn\u2019t defined, necessarily, by boundaries. But none the less, these functions of what would be seen as normal purchase, normal involvement in the economy, normal spaces of sharing our data still happens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI just wanted to make that point but look forward to hearing from the Minister about that particular matter on the involvement in contravention, in particular with his statement around third parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7fad02e8880424398a768580477b6b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7fad02e8880424398a768580477b6b3\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to go to clause\u00A04 and ask about the overview. What I noticed was, first of all, it\u2019s a very unusual way of laying out a clause, and it seems a very effective way, actually. My understanding is that that\u2019s an attempt at a kind of plain language that\u2019s been adopted from the earlier iterations of the bill and kept because it\u2019s seen as a way of people understanding their obligations very clearly. But it did lead me to ask some questions through it, which I\u2019d just like to go through. I also wanted to go, really, to subclause\u00A0(6) of that, which says that \u201CThis section is only a guide to the general scheme and effect of this Act.\u201D So it\u2019s in a place where we often have interpretations, etc. It doesn\u2019t actually have effect. So I\u2019d like the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u2019 comment on what place it has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThen I\u2019d like to just look at the clause\u00A0itself in terms of what it\u2019s doing. It\u2019s talking about, in subclause\u00A0(2), \u201CServices relating to customer data are regulated as follows:\u201D, and you\u2019ve got \u201CIf \u2026 A person\u201D, \u201CThen \u2026\u201D, \u201CHowever \u2026\u201D. There is a part of that when I get to \u201CHowever\u201D, where it says, \u201CCertain protections apply, including duties to\u2014confirm that the customer has authorised the request\u201D. Now, this is that a person using this knows that they should be confirming that the customer has authorised the request. I wondered how long that would be that they had for that issue and then they need to check the identity of the persons who make the requests. Again, how would they do that? How would they check the identity? And how do they check that the customer has authorised the request? What\u2019s driving \u201Chas to be made\u201D? They also have to have a complaints process. My question there is: what would this look like, and where would they go to find those kinds of details which are sort of in line with this clause, very much practical ways of complying with the Act? Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022a03333194d1446f29156b4fef553aa9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a03333194d1446f29156b4fef553aa9d\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister, for your response. Just so I have absolute clarity, can I check with the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade has been consulted on this particular bill, in relation to the digital chapters of our trade agreements? That would be great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EJust to follow up from that, to give an example, let\u2019s say we look at clause\u00A011(1)(b)\u2014or even indeed clause\u00A011(4)\u2014which talks about, \u201Can overseas agency (B), in relation to any conduct by B in the course of carrying on business in New Zealand\u201D. The issue and some of the challenges that we do see in terms of the way that our trade agreements work and how our data works in this context, is the fact that some of these\u2014particularly when we\u2019re looking at some of the big tech\u2014do not need to have an onshore presence, which means that some of them are not considered as carrying on business in New Zealand, because our domestic law has no jurisdiction over them. This is one of the things which would then lead to\u2014if any issues and complaints, it will go to a supranational court, where people who are judges of that would traditionally be trade, as opposed to data or digital\u2014experts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EUsing clause\u00A011(1)(b) as a very tangible example, when we are looking at something like this, and let\u2019s say, for example, in the context of privacy, is the Minister saying that, for anything\u2014because it\u2019s our data, and we do have that data sovereignty\u2014that the privacy of our data, that big tech, even as a third-party provider to some of the companies because they certain technology to store or to use or to process their data, are liable and held accountable under domestic legislation, as suggested in clause\u00A011(1)(b)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022780511bdad914815a96ad0b1d5432d97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022780511bdad914815a96ad0b1d5432d97\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you for an opportunity to ask the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs about the deception provision, which has changed in this bill. I\u2019m nervous that we will not get an opportunity to deal with this definition before we move on to the penalties clauses. I acknowledge that the Minister has given an answer about that change, but the change that I am asking for here is that the criminal definition of deception include a failure to disclose information when there is a duty to disclose. So that\u2019s like a failure by omission that is well established in the criminal law but only applies when there are positive duties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo my question to him was: are the provisions in this legislation being read as duties on the people who have roles as data providers and data users under this, and therefore there is a deception by omission provision in this law? Because that wasn\u2019t there before. That omissions element is new. The penalties weren\u2019t designed when there was an omissions element, when you could be penalised for not providing something or being silent on the issue or being reckless as to whether you were silent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe reason I\u2019m pressing this point in that section is because it then goes to all of the ways we might do enforcement around it. No one in the select committee room wanted a penalties regime where small fintechs were being held to standards and penalties if they were reckless as to whether they were silent on it. Absolutely hold them to account if they have had a data breach where they did something to actively provide the data to the wrong person\u2014absolutely. Their security systems are designed for that; that is a really important part of this regime. But where there is an omission, that\u2019s another thing and I just want to make sure that the Minister is comfortable with that. If he\u2019s comfortable with that, then can he give us that indication and then we can deal with it in the penalties provisions, about what has changed since then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn the EU cases on this\u2014the only jurisdictions that have had any significant litigation on this around the access to data where omissions are concerned\u2014the courts have had a lot of costly litigation on this and they have a mechanism for doing that. It\u2019s by lots of consumers joining up together, whether that\u2019s through class action lawsuits provisions or organisations bringing cases on their behalf. We don\u2019t have that, so if we were needing to develop that through court systems, that would need to be individuals, me and you who use our banking services and might be plugged in to an app or might be getting financial information about our own practices through one of the fintechs or needing to do that law development. So it\u2019s just not really possible in New Zealand. So I just wanted to clarify how that deception rule might be tested if it is a bit fuzzy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f29caf6b703042c08a2ba857e465b1f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f29caf6b703042c08a2ba857e465b1f6\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I just sense that we\u2019re getting a little bit repetitive. So I just want to make it very clear that there is a provision at clause\u00A05(2) which defines a terminology, and that says \u201Cinvolved in a contravention\u201D, and I draw members\u2019 attention to that. So, \u201CIn this Act, a person is involved in a contravention if the person\u2014(a) has aided, abetted, counselled, or procured the contravention; or (b) has induced, whether by threats or promises or otherwise, the contravention; or (c) has been in any way, directly or indirectly, knowingly concerned in, or party to, the contravention; or (d) has conspired with others to effect the contravention.\u201D So that\u2019s a very broad and wide catch-all. I think that that is adequate, but I understand that the member may wish to pursue that in another part of the bill when we get to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to just comment on the question that was raised relating to overseas persons. Clause\u00A011(1)(b) provides that the bill applies to overseas persons \u201Ccarrying on business in New Zealand\u201D, and subclause\u00A0(3) clarifies that the person need not have a place of business in New Zealand. So I think that covers that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIn a specific response to Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s question about the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT), I maybe didn\u2019t make it as clear as I should have done in my previous response, but I\u2019m able to confirm that, absolutely, MFAT was consulted, and no issues were raised about New Zealand\u2019s trade agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThen just in terms of the issue that was raised about overview, this is a bill that is technical in nature. We recognise that; we understand that. So that wording around \u201Coverview\u201D attempts to help explain the framework. It\u2019s sort of the written equivalent of a flow chart, if I can put it that way. Yes, it\u2019s an interesting technique, but I think, ultimately, a very helpful one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u0022073ab5e021194e6582fe09e45cb7df03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022073ab5e021194e6582fe09e45cb7df03\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00229c43bed521d3471b9d4069723877f257\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c43bed521d3471b9d4069723877f257\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 254 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b81b17eb2b642b8ad1620e50b5096fa\u0022\u003EPart 2  Regulated data services\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022609cdce578bf4e5f812be56a551637d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022609cdce578bf4e5f812be56a551637d2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. This is a debate on clauses 14 to 35A, \u201CRegulated data services\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u00224191edff6fc04e37bb1c4b09b7c11811\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224191edff6fc04e37bb1c4b09b7c11811\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002226e246b965794ed1b7fa9b84fdd7daf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226e246b965794ed1b7fa9b84fdd7daf3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Scott Simpson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb8e52cd36b14eae8237f225b0df07cc\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: A bit of enthusiasm on that side of the Chamber!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9e5e9f2634c41d0af10c19d299c0e3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9e5e9f2634c41d0af10c19d299c0e3f\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, very enthusiastic colleagues. Just before we start the debate on this part, I thought it might be helpful to members of the committee if I just spend a minute or two setting out what Part 2 really does. Part 2 contains the core obligations on regulated parties. This is a core aspect of this legislation. That means that certain designated businesses that hold data\u2014known as the \u201Cdata holders\u201D\u2014must provide data and perform actions in response to requests from customers and accredited third parties. These core obligations for data holders to provide data and perform actions form the basis of the bill\u2019s regime and is, in the main, the way the bill addresses the reluctance by businesses that hold customer data, information, and product data tightly at the moment\u2014how that is going to be addressed. These obligations have been carefully designed to include the necessary elements for the protection of customers and the success of the entire regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EA key obligation is in clause\u00A027, where data holders will be required to operate electronic systems that automatically respond to these requests, and the bill recognises that we have moved beyond paper\u2014thank goodness!\u2014and need to make the most of the technological advances that are now available to us and in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002263616c69a59e48eea024da79edc7d72f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263616c69a59e48eea024da79edc7d72f\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E This is an important part of the bill, because many of the debates internationally on these regimes have been about balancing the rights of consumers to privacy whilst also giving innovators the ability to use this data and create products which not only advance consumers\u2019 rights but create new products in the market that we haven\u2019t been able to have before. So this ability to refuse a request for data in circumstances is key to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn the General Data Protection Regulation, which is the EU way of approaching this problem, this was key to why they had to design out privacy provisions at the same time as creating the consumer data rights, because you can imagine a situation where consumers have a level of enthusiasm for disclosing data and using data that is not conducive with other privacy rights. So you want to be able to consider those at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI want to ask the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, particularly around clause\u00A016(1)(ea)\u2014this is now framed in a way that relates to clause\u00A05(2) in the language of \u201Ccontravention\u201D. So if you\u2019ve been involved in a contravention of any obligation under this Act in connection with the request, then this comes into play. Why I\u2019m asking this is because should that be read\u2014is it \u201Cdeceptive conduct\u201D? Are we calling it something else? Is it a contravention? Is the data holder who is envisioned in clause\u00A016(1)(ea) somebody who we think would be liable for penalties, or is the data holder imagined in clause\u00A016(1)(ea) just required to make the refusal, and there are no flow-on effects of that in the system? I ask this because it also leads on to questions about the remedies available for consumers or whether there should be any remedies available for consumers at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002236efc6330e8446119ea9f3a7060ecc86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236efc6330e8446119ea9f3a7060ecc86\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to ask about clause\u00A016, and particularly the provisions that are new\u2014forms of harm. I can see that clause\u00A016 is talking about a data holder refusing a request for data in certain circumstances, and it clearly started with a position that there has to be a serious threat to life, health, safety of the individual, or public health or public safety. But the inclusion of paragraph (ba)\u2014so it\u2019s clause\u00A016(1)(ba) and (bb)\u2014really broadens that. They\u2019re really interesting additions, because they\u2019re about the risk of serious financial harm to people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI wondered whether the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs could elaborate on the inclusion of that, and the inclusion of the next paragraph, which is about the data holder reasonably believing that it\u2019s likely that the request was made as a consequence of deception as well. I guess, in this particular time, it\u2019s probably pretty hard to know whether something\u2019s going to cause serious financial harm in the space of giving out data, and I wondered what the Minister\u2019s thoughts were around what was reasonable in the circumstances there. I\u2019d be grateful for an answer about this clause\u00A0and any more elaboration beyond what I\u2019ve raised which might be an issue in this clause\u00A0in terms of the refusal to give such information up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e722ed72599d4aae9d59fbcd8db33649\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e722ed72599d4aae9d59fbcd8db33649\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Seeking your guidance too, Mr Chair: are we able to, in the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u2019 Amendment Paper, look towards his amendments at they pertain to Part 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f76599b504494ee291079a9f3e03620d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re on Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022153dcc45477f42b48bcfc53484e5db5d\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, Part 2. So in this Amendment Paper, there are matters here that fall under the same clauses in Part 2. Just seeking your guidance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221066c2a30c58419f98f87df532435fc1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, no, that\u2019s fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022171f50045f3341d1b15d0295e7c8b0e0\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, perfect. Excellent. Thank you, Mr Chair. I read through those proposed changes from the Minister. I know that some of them are relatively straightforward. They seem like a systematic way of making sure there\u2019s consistency in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThere are, however, just a few things I think the committee would appreciate if the Minister could just explain a little bit why these amendments have come in. In particular, as I look towards the amendments that he\u2019s proposing here, we\u2019ve got here in clause\u00A021\u2014I know this sounds a little pedantic, but there\u2019s a reason why these amendments have come in here. I want to make sure that, in order for us to look towards supporting the amendments that the Minister is proposing here, I hope that, more broadly speaking, the Minister might take a call to just explain through some of the more technical ones; not the ones where it is repeated in order for us to get consistency, but in particular some of the more detailed ones as described in his Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe other one matter I want to raise with the Minister is looking towards the changes that are being made to clause\u00A016. In that particular clause, as we look across the changes for subclause\u00A0(1)(ba) and (bb), I\u2019m looking at them, and I figure this fits under the mantle or under the banner of fraud more generally speaking. We\u2019ve already traversed in Part 1 the definition of terms. But in this particular instance where it says, \u201Cif the data holder reasonably believes that disclosure of the data would create a significant likelihood of serious financial harm to any person; or\u201D, and then in (bb) it states \u201Cif the data holder reasonably believes that it is likely that the request was made (wholly or in part) as a consequence of deception;\u201D, for me, this seems like, as my read of it\u2014and, please, I ask the Minister to clarify if I\u2019ve got this wrong\u2014this is about a simple transaction where those who hold data, those who request that data, these are the grounds for which those who hold the data may continue to hold on to that data and not release it. That\u2019s my reading of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI know it\u2019s rather layman\u2019s terms, but I wonder if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind taking a call just to make that very clear, as we\u2019ve already touched on matters around deception and how it\u2019s important to continue to maintain the integrity of the data that a person might give up and trust that somebody who\u2019s holding that will continue to act in their best interests. If I think of recent cases of those who have been the sad victims of online fraud or online crimes and then have gone to banks and there\u2019s been this whole merry-go-round, if you will, about what data can be released, who it can be released to, why didn\u2019t certain parties do more to protect the victim in these instances, or at least withhold information where it looked like they may have been subject to fraudulent approaches by those who are requesting data or who have been able to access data. So I\u2019ll leave those on the table for the Minister to consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002272dbd4b4c22743cf971688e8e8889e97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272dbd4b4c22743cf971688e8e8889e97\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Again, several good questions from members of the committee. I want to just start this particular contribution by addressing the matter that Arena Williams raised relating to privacy. Of course, as I had explained when we were discussing the previous part, the Privacy Act applies. We have drafted this legislation in a way that gives the Privacy Act primacy in terms of protecting the privacy of customers, individuals, and I think that that regime is perfectly adequate for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut I want to just comment on the question of reasonableness, because throughout the legislation, there are several references to what\u2019s reasonable behaviour, what\u2019s reasonably expected, what\u2019s reasonable access to information and data, and what\u2019s reasonably not necessarily going to be available. I am relying, as many before me have done, on the very well-tested judicial interpretations of what\u2019s reasonable and what\u2019s not reasonable. It\u2019s not for me to prejudge what that might look like, but I think that we can rely on our judiciary to interpret, should it be necessary, what reasonable looks like, and I\u2019m very happy to let them do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIn reference to the issue relating to refusing requests under clause\u00A016(1)(ea), that was a fair question and one worthy of just exploring a little further. Clause\u00A016(1)(ea) allows a data holder to refuse requests if the accredited person is in breach of the Act. Now, that may not involve any deception by the accredited requester or harm to the customer. Again, there is a protection there, and that particular clause\u00A0doesn\u2019t affect a customer\u2019s ability to obtain redress if in fact there has been real harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022ceda3b980c2a4638848142ab2a99c020\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ceda3b980c2a4638848142ab2a99c020\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs for that answer and that is helpful in thinking about how these contraventions work and how the other duties might sort of fit together with it. While I\u2019m thinking about that, I want to ask him some other specific questions. I\u2019ll take him to page\u00A018; I\u2019m on clause\u00A021. The issue of how to deal with privacy when joint customers are involved has plagued the banks for many, many years; this is not a new issue. What do you do when you have a customer account of two people\u2014perhaps it\u2019s me and my husband\u2014and then my husband rings up the bank and says, \u201CMy wife\u2019s terrible, she\u2019s down in Parliament giving a crazy speech. I want to lock her out of her bank account.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fe93cb2d95a4528bedcad688b6b3b8e\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Surely not!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f9928b8adb841f18ca046649d83166b\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CSurely not!\u201D, says the Hon Scott Simpson. It is a real issue that the banks have had to deal with for many, many years. This doesn\u2019t necessarily step that out. It is a very, very difficult issue to deal with, one that there is actually also not very useful case law on because banks, when they get this wrong, are incentivised to settle this issue directly with consumers. So I would like the Minister to take us through how this is meant to work, especially in an open banking context and how we might give especially fintechs, small fintechs that are certainly not going to be in the habit of settling big matters on a one-on-one basis because they just do not have the teams to do that\u2014how they are going to work through these difficult issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe other question I have for him is which provision in this part\u2014or how are these several provisions in this part\u2014is going to guarantee data portability? Data portability was something that was submitted on a lot in the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. It is the thing that would give consumers a lot of control when they are not necessarily shopping around all of their other options. But in, say, a banking context, being able to switch banks easily is one of the things that the Government points to as a really important banking reform and something that will drive competition in the market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is a different approach to almost every other jurisdiction that has done this. Most other pieces of legislation have a section that is called \u201Cdata portability\u201D and it deals with all of the ways you might expect data portability to be enshrined in law. I want the Minister to explain how these sort of more open-ended provisions guarantee that New Zealanders will be able to always point to their rights to move their data around. Because it\u2019s one thing to be able to request it, it\u2019s one thing to be able to have a third party requesting it, but it\u2019s another thing to make sure that these things aren\u2019t being turned down because of, say, commercial sensitivity. As well, I\u2019d like him to give us a sense of whether the agglomerated data that consumers\u2019 data might be used for is also portable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EJust to round out, a third question here is: there are a number of trade-offs that have been made in this part about trust and security in the system. Once these regimes are introduced in every jurisdiction that that they have been introduced in, there have been instances of public pushback because trust in the system has been undermined in some way, whether it\u2019s tech companies, social media companies with data breaches and scandals about data sharing\u2014so these aren\u2019t hacking or scams; these are situations where data is shared in a way which is agreed and where companies can point to sort of ambiguous laws to justify their actions. They\u2019re not illegal, but they do offend consumers\u2019 perceptions of trust in the system. How are we making sure that the rights of consumers to use their data in a free and open way are still going to stand up to a level of scrutiny in the system once this is introduced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022dad28baa604547f68630740b3600a2be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dad28baa604547f68630740b3600a2be\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to just comment on this question of joint customers because it\u2019s a very fair and reasonable question, and it\u2019s a practical one as well. The member Arena Williams cited a situation where, maybe, a couple have a joint bank account. One wants access to the data, and one may not, for a variety of reasons, notwithstanding the quality of her speech making. So if she goes further through clause\u00A021, particularly 21(2), it says, \u201CA data holder and an accredited requestor must deal with the joint customers in the manner prescribed by the regulations,\u201D and then it goes on to list a series of things including \u201Cconnection with\u201D and so forth. But the key words in that clause are \u201Cin the manner prescribed by the regulations\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, as I\u2019ve mentioned specifically in relation to Part 1 when we were discussing it, the regulations have yet to be drawn up. So the first cab off the rank will be banking, and then we\u2019ve indicated that the next sector to be regulated under this bill\u2014or this Act, when it\u2019s passed\u2014will be electricity. Now, the manner with which joint customers or joint data holders are treated in those two sectors may be different. So as much as I would like at this early stage to give the member the precise detail relating to what those regulations will look at, sadly that has yet to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve indicated we\u2019ll have the banking one done\u2014my timetable wants to have that up and running before Christmas\u2014and then we\u2019ll move on to the next one. So that\u2019s the area there, but I would encourage the member to look through the rest of that clause as she goes through it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to just go back to a matter that was raised relating to grounds to refuse. I\u2019ve been advised that the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee heard from submitters about the changes that were needed to refuse requests and that that those requests would cause significant harm. Now, the obvious example of that is where it might be a scam, there would be obvious harm. Again, it\u2019s a matter of practicality, of sensibleness, and, to a degree, of common sense. So that\u2019s provided for in that particular part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9467e1f5c3b4ca8a1f56d2910c7a91a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9467e1f5c3b4ca8a1f56d2910c7a91a\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022472263c6444e4d9db8fb6c05280500ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022472263c6444e4d9db8fb6c05280500ab\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Thank you for the comment about the scams. It was what I had in mind, that we\u2019re living in an age where also you often get that tension between a customer demanding information or demanding to be allowed the freedom to do something that, actually, the way the system is now picked up is extremely damaging in terms of those scams. They\u2019re often their own worst enemy in those situations, and there is a balance needed between autonomy and that kind of harm happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI wanted to ask you about a couple of the other sections we haven\u2019t gone through at all. The issue over clause\u00A022\u2014it\u2019s a simple clause, where the data holder must provide to any person\u2014I wondered how that would be effected with an individual, because it\u2019s very different giving data across to a company that\u2019s set up for it. But how does somebody actually ask for their own information, and how specific do they have to be and how general could they be? Could they be asking for crazy amounts of information, and how repetitive could that be? Because that certainly becomes something that some particular personality types like to do. So I just wondered how practically that have been thought through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI also wanted to ask about the issue that is in clause\u00A024, about secondary users. There are some very interesting examples there of household data. There\u2019s the example, I think, of the electricity bill and trying to get the information around that, but you\u2019ve not just got the customer who\u2019s paying the bill; you\u2019ve got a whole lot of other people within that household, as I understand it. So I\u2019d invite and ask the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs to explain to the general public what those sections are doing and how we have developed a system to perhaps cope with that situation of people in a broader group. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00224cfe1886094d47769766cd1d2e282109\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cfe1886094d47769766cd1d2e282109\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The answer to the question in relation to clause\u00A022, \u201CData holder must provide product data to any person\u201D, is actually detailed in the lines below that. The clause specifically says, \u201CThis section applies if\u201D and then there are three provisions that I think would nicely limit the concerns that the member Helen White had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo \u201CThis section applies if (a) a person requests that a data holder provides data to the person; and (b) the data is designated product data; and (c) the request (i) is a valid request\u201D\u2014so not an extreme request; a valid request\u2014\u201Cand (ii) is made using the system described in section\u00A027.\u201D So this is access to data provided by the accredited third party, so the consumer or the customer gives informed consent for that entity to gather the data from the data holder and then provide it back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe member raises an interesting question about, maybe, information that might be available for your electricity usage. I\u2019m envisaging a flatting situation where various flatmates might want to apportion appropriately the electricity usage amongst themselves. As a parent, I would have liked to have had that ability when my children were teenagers, but I\u2019ve noticed that since they\u2019ve become power bill - payers themselves, their use of electricity has changed appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t know how that potential can exist, but I do know that there are some very smart operators out there who are probably, as we speak, trying to figure out ways that they can make that kind of application work in a way that is going to be meaningful and useful to electricity consumers and account holders. I\u2019m very excited to wait and see what kind of options become available using their smarts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022007e55668ab2484f9fc2fae2de54a07b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022007e55668ab2484f9fc2fae2de54a07b\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I do so appreciate the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u2019 willingness to engage on this part. I want to ask him a further question and it\u2019s about clause\u00A034, on page\u00A025\u2014and here\u2019s where I turn into a leery free-marketeer capitalist! You know, Minister, that I am very enthusiastic about this bill, and I want it to work very well, and I think that the industry have engaged deeply with the creation of these regulations over a really long period of time. So the creation of these new provisions where we\u2019re possible giving officials further powers to draft regulations about the manner in which information is provided\u2014they give me pause. They give me pause in this particular frame of mind anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m asking you here, Minister, is about clause\u00A034(c), \u201Cthe manner of notifying or making available the information\u201D could be read in two different ways. In an open banking scenario where you\u2019ve got an industry body like Payments NZ doing a stellar job of driving this from an industry perspective where they have a legacy relationship with the major banks but they are also working very hard to include smaller players\u2014varying expense and a range of feedback and views on that in the industry, but all together they have really stepped up to the plate. You have industries leading that, and so the prescribed manner in which information is being provided here, one would assume would have a level of industry buy-in\u2014that that information being requested would not be used in a way that would benefit larger players as the expense of smaller players but would also turn out usable information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m getting at here is requiring small fintechs to give information in a way that lined up with the sort of information that the large banks hold would be unreasonable now, because the small players keep a range of different information on customers than the banks do. The banks have large\u2014varyingly large but mostly very large\u2014investments into tech systems that record transactions on a per-second basis with a range of other information and algorithms to analyse that data. Small players don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIf you were using rules that were restrictive under this kind of provision, then you could perhaps have a market impact and an anti-competitive impact. That\u2019s one way to read it. Another way to read it might be there might be a bureaucratic overlay here, where Government is interested in a particular kind of data, a kind of presentation of data, that might not be industry-driven. So you need a balance between industry and Government setting this kind regulation, but that wasn\u2019t what was envisioned first. It was envisioned in this overarching legislation that we would simply be talking about information, that there would be an information disclosure requirement, and then it would be up to secondary legislation, which, as we know, goes through fulsome consultation processes with industry where industry are consulted on the kind of information that they want, and that would be set out in the regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI can certainly imagine industries where you would want to keep that very, very high level, where you wouldn\u2019t want the regulator setting the sorts of calculations that providers were required to use. I want the Minister to explain where that\u2019s come from, give the industry some certainty that that is, where possible, going to be industry led.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002249337b58d86241d98ec78a0ad91ca40c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249337b58d86241d98ec78a0ad91ca40c\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Just striking while the iron\u2019s hot. The member Arena Williams was referring to clause\u00A034(c) at the bottom of page\u00A025. The answer to her question is, actually, if she turns the page and looks at the guidance note that says, \u201Csubpart 9 of Part 5 for provisions relating to the making of regulations and standards.\u201D So we aren\u2019t at that part yet, but, with the indulgence of the Chair, I would point the member to looking towards the parts further into it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThere was the question I didn\u2019t address relating to data portability. That\u2019s also worth just noting that data portability is actually fundamental to the bill. Although the bill uses different terminology, the bill ensures data portability by imposing obligations for data holders to transfer data to customers and accredited requesters. These transfers must be in standard formats and allow the data to be used effectively. This whole regime isn\u2019t going to work if the data holders then provide, through a variety of different mechanisms, kind of disjointed data, blurred data, or data in a format that isn\u2019t actually usable to the to the provider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EJust going back to clause\u00A022, the product data that it refers to is the sort of thing like mortgage rates, for instance, that are currently publicly available. But in order to make comparisons, that\u2019s quite a complicated process. People kind of draw up their own little grid and they have a look at this bank or that bank or this mortgage adviser and then try and come to that themselves. The concept, I think, that\u2019s very exciting is the potential for a fintech to actually provide that kind of comparative service to a person seeking a mortgage. I think that\u2019s an ideal and classic example of how this legislation can be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8fcc547ce624137bf39943b4947a327\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8fcc547ce624137bf39943b4947a327\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6c819f23f604e078cf1d95b8874abad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6c819f23f604e078cf1d95b8874abad\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019d like to ask a question about clause\u00A035A, and I\u2019d like to get your comments on this\u2014it\u2019s actually 35 as well as 35A, so we\u2019ll just put it in context there. You\u2019ve got here a section that is about having to provide information, and if you don\u2019t, then you\u2019re going to be penalised and there\u2019s going to be an infringement fee and a fine. Then, 35A has an exception to that, which is that you must not act if there are \u201Creasonable grounds to believe that the authorisation or instruction is given under the threat of physical or mental harm.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I appreciate the point that the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs has made that some of that stuff about what\u2019s reasonable is going to be resolved in the courts, but I wondered whether that standard would include things like domestic violence orders or whether people would be notifying, for example, the bank that there were issues around this, or what that kind of standard would be in that way, because I don\u2019t know\u2014I simply don\u2019t know where that line would be at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI can see that there is a good spirit in this part of the bill, because we\u2019re trying to deal with anti-competitive processes, etc., and this sort of brings in a balancing of the sort of personal, in a way. So it\u2019s a personal circumstance that has been seen as a problem that should count against that kind of approach. So I\u2019d be interested in that wider issue of why this particular exception is here, but also what practically that means for the general public. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022946a62065adc4c0087b2626fae00ab59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022946a62065adc4c0087b2626fae00ab59\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, the protection and proviso in clause\u00A035 is deliberately inserted to ensure that coercion, threats, potential blackmail\u2014all those sorts of things that we often choose to not look at\u2014are included in here. So I\u2019m very pleased that these two clauses are in the bill. The member will note that there are some quite specific and fairly weighty penalties should coercion or threats be signified or be brought to the attention of the data provider. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo, again, it comes back to a question of reasonableness. How much information does someone need to know before they think that the request is being made under coercion? I don\u2019t have a specific answer to that. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s quantifiable. That\u2019s kind of a matter for individual data holders to determine. But what I do know is that for the various fintech companies that are going to be establishing these offers, these solutions, these tools, it\u2019s in their best interests to ensure that the people they are engaging with and the entities they are engaging with are legitimate, that they operate under best practice, and that they assume all the obligations of a responsible corporate citizen that go with any kind of trading\u2014whether it relates to this particular bill or any interaction, commercial, social, or personal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u00222d83b7afd6be4846977b3c0b40dc7499\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d83b7afd6be4846977b3c0b40dc7499\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1fb535eac0c41de971420c214a34721\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1fb535eac0c41de971420c214a34721\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Amendment Paper 254 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f358ba2d38084eeabf46a203089e3970\u0022\u003EPart 3  Protections\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002259fcaf9d922f46c78d38e9ca041ae110\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259fcaf9d922f46c78d38e9ca041ae110\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 3. Part 3 is the debate on clauses 36 to 53, \u201CProtections\u201D. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002277328a5d1b3e4de8bd2f45509ea0cc4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277328a5d1b3e4de8bd2f45509ea0cc4c\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I just thought, again, it\u2019s probably helpful to make some introductory remarks to this part. So Part 3 provides the important safeguards and protections which ensure that the regime is trusted by customers. It kind of follows on from the conversation we were having in the previous part. Some of these safeguards include the rules for authorisations by customers; identity verification, which is going to be important; record-keeping requirements; and the dispute resolution and customer complaints process that are key parts of this legislation. The rules for authorisation ensure that the customer\u2019s data or actions on behalf of a customer can only be requested under the bill if the customer provides express approval.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2b4098eeecc4c6fa66f8937470ee864\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2b4098eeecc4c6fa66f8937470ee864\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs for that explanation. I\u2019m asking him questions about clauses 36, 37, and 38. I\u2019ve got seven questions about this. I hope we can have a bit of a back and forth dialogue on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy first question is about whether he considered any further provisions at the primary legislation level or whether he thinks this is for secondary legislation, or, indeed, whether he thinks the control for this is the accreditation of requesters and holders of data. My question is: how should the initial authorisation process ensure customer understanding and consent? It\u2019s one thing for the legislation to require authorisation; it\u2019s another thing for the regulations, or, indeed, the accreditation process for requesters to be asking about whether a customer actually consents and whether they actually understand that. In the tech context, we see a real range of practice. There is, in fact, probably no sort of best practice about consent and understanding in the context of this authorisation that we\u2019re talking about at clause\u00A036.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhile the Minister considers that, my second question is more about clauses 37 and 38. It\u2019s the same question about where this sits. Is it primary legislation, secondary legislation, or in the accreditation process around where safeguards should be in place to prevent the misuse of data after the initial authorisation? Many of these regimes around the world have come under fire because once the customer has authorised data sharing, the question for them is how they can ensure that their data is being used only for that intended purpose, or for the purpose that they thought they were consenting to\u2014the purpose that they understood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere are really good examples here. The example given at page\u00A027 of the bill is about a customer authorising their electricity provider data holder to provide their details through an electricity usage company. So when you\u2019re doing that, you might expect that they would use that specifically for the purpose of giving you the best electricity deal in the market, but they might also use that if they carry on their business as a comparer of electricity products to offer other products and information to other people, in an aggregate way. And so my question there is about the safeguards in place to prevent the misuse of data while also allowing those companies to build out really useful consumer-centric, helpful uses of that data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022db03bee1dc494c8f98635e04eac9b637\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db03bee1dc494c8f98635e04eac9b637\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E This is quite an important consideration about what amounts to authorisation, how it is collected, how it is obtained, and when it occurs. In general, authorisation is about the process of ensuring that the customer\u2019s information, or actions on behalf of a customer, will only be disclosed or performed under the bill if the customer provides approval. So the approval is crucial. Authorisation is given if the customer, or secondary user, is reasonably informed\u2014so, again, it\u2019s that element of reasonableness\u2014about the matter, about the authorisation, given expressly in the manner prescribed, and that\u2019s set out in the clauses. When responding to a request from an accredited requester, \u201CThe data holder must check that the service is within the scope of the authorisation given by the customer\u201D. So there\u2019s a protection there not to say, \u201COh, yeah, it\u2019s OK.\u201D, and then that\u2019s carte blanche for all information on all matters of everything. It\u2019s quite fine, it\u2019s quite finessed, and it\u2019s quite focused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EA data holder and accredited requester must have systems in place to enable authorisation to be changed by the customer, so it\u2019s not an authorisation in perpetuity. If the customer changes their mind or wants to do something differently or, maybe, in fact, engage with another entity, another fintech, then that opportunity has to be there. So an accredited requester must comply with their duties in respect of authorisation, and that\u2019s part of the accreditation process for the entity. And, for example, here\u2019s one for how they must ensure the customer or secondary user is reasonably informed: a person must not require a customer to authorise a regulated data service as a condition of providing some other good or service. So you can\u2019t say, \u201CWell, you can have this, but only if you give us that.\u201D Again, I think that\u2019s a good common-sense application. It comes back a little to the introductory comments I made, when we first started this committee stage, that one of the benefits we have in New Zealand of being a little slow to this legislative regime is that we have learnt some lessons from other jurisdictions where they haven\u2019t quite got it right and we can pick up on their errors and take the good bits and not replicate the bad bits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5ce8832d1e1400f80474b7e9d63ef57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5ce8832d1e1400f80474b7e9d63ef57\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just circling back to one of the questions just raised and not quite yet addressed by the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u2014but I thank him for those most recent answers that really addressed the issues around the collection, the obtaining, and the changing of authorised data. But the question I have, specifically, is around the ending of that authorisation. So it says here in clause\u00A037(a), \u201Cthe expiry of the maximum period for an authorisation specified by the regulations\u201D\u2014and my understanding is the regulations are yet to exist\u2014\u201C(b) the occurrence of an event specified by the regulations (if any) (for example, when the customer closes an account with a data holder):\u201D and \u201C(c) the time (if any) specified by the customer (or a secondary user on their behalf) when the authorisation is given:\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESo really the questions here are around\u2014and I thank the Minister for his answers which made it clearer around the collection, the obtaining, and the changing, but often what we find is that people, especially in online contexts, find it very easy to opt into a system or a service but find opting out of that or knowing whether they\u2019ve officially opted out of it quite difficult. So I really wanted to get an understanding around what those regulations will look exactly like and also to pick up on a point in the Minister\u2019s answer around ensuring that companies, businesses, users of this legislation cannot compel somebody to provide greater access than necessary to their data or for a longer period than they would be comfortable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EIs there a similar consideration in place to ensure that there wouldn\u2019t be the compulsion for individuals to remove access or data provision to one provider in order to proceed with another? So really making sure that people don\u2019t have to withdraw a whole lot of information from one place to be able to engage in another. Just some clarity around some of those questions would be great, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022befad438a38c4eeb9fbbc3826f448e11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022befad438a38c4eeb9fbbc3826f448e11\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Again, some good questions. The bill addresses the issues that the member has raised in a couple of ways. There will be a maximum length of time that an authorisation can last. Now, the detail of what that length of time might be will be in the regulations, because that will be potentially different from one sector to another, but the concept involves a finite endpoint. So it just means that once you\u2019ve done it, there will be a point at which it has to be refreshed, that further consent has to be obtained, and so forth. So the circumstances when an authorisation ends\u2014for example, when the customer closes an account\u2014that brings to an end that relationship. But we want to make that very clear in the regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAuthorisations, of course, must also end at the time specified by the customer or secondary user once the authorisation is given. For example, a customer might only authorise data to be shared for, say, six months or eight months or whatever. It could be for a very finite period of time. And again, I\u2019m envisaging a situation where, for instance, someone might be thinking about trying to obtain a mortgage. They want the information about all that for a set period of time, but maybe once they\u2019ve got their mortgage, they no longer need that information. That would be an obvious and convenient time to bring that authorisation to a close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also an option\u2014well, there\u2019s also a requirement that authorisations may be ended at the time determined by the accredited requester as well. So that would be the actual fintech outfit. They might say, \u201CWell, we don\u2019t need this any more. Time to turn it off. We\u2019re finishing that authorisation.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAgain, the option for the secondary legislation through the regulations\u2014I think that that\u2019s where the detail will come. As the member may have heard me say earlier on, we\u2019re expecting to see the regulations for banking before Christmas. Well, in fact, we want it to be before that, because we want to have it up and running by Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002276c9df1d766746a3ba84ed67fd7ea05f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276c9df1d766746a3ba84ed67fd7ea05f\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs for his really helpful answers there, and the expiry being different for different sectors makes sense but wasn\u2019t something that was well understood or traversed, so that is a really helpful answer and means I don\u2019t have to ask him a number of my questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut I do still have a question about what his expectations are for customers to remain informed about the ongoing use of their data, especially after the initial consent. So this is a question about how, you know, there\u2019s nothing in the primary legislation which requires reconfirmation for subsequent actions, and that\u2019s fine; that\u2019s a policy choice that\u2019s being made here. So how do customers remain confident in the use of the data if they\u2019re not required to reconfirm it? What part of the system gives consumers confidence that once they have given an authorisation that the ongoing use of the data that they may well have signed up to is, you know, being monitored appropriately?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAnother question about scope change, when the scope of an authorisation changes. So it is intended that the regulations will deal with having a customer who is able to change the scope of the authorisation that they\u2019ve given, then modify that. But are the protections appropriate to ensure that the customer is aware of the ramifications of that change, so that they\u2019re not going to have a part of their service turned off because they\u2019ve turned off another part of their service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy final questions are about withdrawal of consent at a later stage. The Minister has pointed to the regulations giving customers clear ability to do this but, again, you know, easily revoking consent for part or for a whole of a service that you are paying for should be quick, be easy, be painless, and match up with not only your privacy rights but then also your rights as a consumer. If you\u2019re not getting the service you\u2019re paying for, then you shouldn\u2019t be paying for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe last question: penalties and consequences for companies that fail to confirm or adhere to authorisation scope when it changes? It\u2019s not something that\u2019s dealt with at the primary legislation. Is that because it needs to be different in sectors or is that a policy decision that is based on the accreditation scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b45887bebd484fac8f540918ef8958d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b45887bebd484fac8f540918ef8958d0\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022c099bd2c54bc479b8d9051eb9fadfbba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c099bd2c54bc479b8d9051eb9fadfbba\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I wanted to ask about the Privacy Act part of this, and the overlay between this bill and our own Privacy Act. My understanding is that when we were on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, the Australians had a very different system. That was because they didn\u2019t really have the same Privacy Act overlay, and we\u2019ve opted for a situation of very much relying on integrating this with the Privacy Act. So I can see that clause\u00A052 and onwards is about those, and I wanted to give the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs the opportunity to talk about the Privacy Act protections that are in place in New Zealand that might not be, in particular, in other countries. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00227b0420a933564e10ab66768ab08838ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b0420a933564e10ab66768ab08838ff\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Again, I\u2019ll work a little bit backwards. So Helen White\u2019s question about privacy is a good one. So the bill complements existing protections provided under our Privacy Act\u2014the 2020 legislation. The Privacy Act provides rights and obligations for personal information which apply across the entire economy\u2014so not just in relation to this piece of legislation. They touch everything that we do in many respects. This bill only sets out the rules for providing certain customer and product data upon request, so it doesn\u2019t relate to the actual data itself. It creates the framework for the data, rather than trying to prescribe detail or define the data. That is for another day. What it means, in effect, is that the Privacy Commissioner will continue to have investigation, guidance, enforcement, and redress powers over any breaches relating to personal information. So those powers, as the member will know, are quite strict and readily enforceable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to just go back to the matter that was raised about how consent is given, because I\u2019m not sure that I\u2019d quite answered that as fully as I might have done. But the primary legislation provides the principles for how consent must be obtained\u2014that\u2019s specifically clause\u00A036. Regulation and standards can provide further detail\u2014that\u2019s clause\u00A036(1)(b). Existing industry standards in the banking sector, for instance, provide further requirements. Now, these could be adopted under the bill in the regulations. And clause\u00A040 means that there must be compliance with the duties there stated and penalties apply for breaching authorisation provisions\u2014clause\u00A075. Those, as I\u2019ve indicated previously, are fairly hefty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe question relating to opting out is also significant. Clause\u00A039 requires data holders and accredited requesters to provide systems for customers to end authorisation. So they have to be kind of proactive in terms of providing opt-out options. This is backed up with, again, some quite stiff penalties, should that clause\u00A0be contravened. For those penalties in that clause, have a look at clause\u00A075(1).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00224f492ef8c06441f6933f4e8b01669891\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f492ef8c06441f6933f4e8b01669891\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to ask the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs about deleted clause\u00A047 and clause\u00A050. These are unrelated to each other, but deleted clause\u00A047 is about the publication of policies. Some of my questions to the Minister earlier and his very helpful answers fleshed out this issue where a lot of this is going to come down to individual arrangements between the fintech and its customer or the electricity competition provider and its customer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis provision was originally designed to say, \u201CLook, these are arrangements that each customer is going to be able to enter into. We can have some faith that the market will work in a way where people know what they\u2019re signing up for and agree to varying levels of risk and privacy.\u201D But this is gone now. So we\u2019re then relying on industry standards, and that works quite well for banking where banking industry standards are quite well understood. Banks have very long had obligations that exist outside of this law, but in other areas of the law where they have to know their customers, they have to know about their financial circumstances, and they have to report on that in other ways, so publication of those policies might not have made sense in the banking sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut in something like where this might otherwise apply, in electricity, New Zealand doesn\u2019t have the very, very, very long history that, say, an Australian jurisdiction has of consumer rights codes, law around consumer rights, and well-established case law around the rights of consumers and the electricity provisions, whether that is at the being-connected level or whether that is understanding the prices that they pay and regulation of the prices that they pay. So removing this clause seems to enable banks but hurts other consumers in other sectors, and I want the Minister to explain his thinking around this. Is the control simply the accreditation regime so that we\u2019re then in those areas where there are not gold standards and where there are not well-established principles of using consumer data that we would simply only be having a few providers in the system, and those providers would have the very best privacy standards and the very best systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy question about clause\u00A060 is\u2014again, dispute resolution schemes in the industries that we\u2019re talking about vary greatly. Banking dispute resolution schemes are great, very useful for consumers, and very accessible. In other industries where this might apply there, there are just not dispute resolution schemes like that. Is the intention here that every industry would be building out a suitable dispute resolution scheme, or is the intention to have dispute resolutions specifically for consumer data in those industries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae513209b80a4a9cb385ea5c495d42fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae513209b80a4a9cb385ea5c495d42fd\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019m wanting to unpack and ask some questions in relationship to clause\u00A045 as well as clause\u00A046 in Part 3, particularly in relationship to the infringement fees and a fine imposed by a court, both in relationship to the \u201CData holder must keep records about regulated data service\u201D as well as the \u201CAccredited requestor must keep records about regulated data service\u201D and, I guess, the consequences that are being put in this bill should those things not happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIf we go to clause\u00A045(5), what we\u2019ll see is that it mirrors the amount laid out in clause\u00A046(4) of an infringement fee of $20,000 or a fine imposed by a court not exceeding $50,000. I wanted to ask the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, in terms of the work that went into creating those two figures, how he believes that was the right amount to arrive to because if we have a static figure, and these are not proportionate to, say, for example, someone\u2019s income or a profit made by a company that this person may be part of, we then create a situation where disproportionately wealthier individuals will be more easily able to pay that fine without that having a deterrence factor or huge adverse impacts in their life. Particularly, since those figures are static, I wanted to ask the Minister about whether he foresees that there needs to be some work around looking at these figures and adjusting them as inflationary pressures change things to ensure that these infringement fees and fines imposed by the court actually act as a deterrent factor, which is what I am assuming is the intent of these figures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAgain, the reason for that is that in other systems that we have, when we have infringement fees or fines imposed by a court that are static to act as a deterrent factor, what we end up seeing is that absurdly wealthy individuals get, effectively, a free pass because they\u2019re able to afford these infringement fees. I know that none the less these are quite steep for the everyday person, but I\u2019m assuming that some of the people that we may see being more likely to be at fault of not being able to keep records of regulated data services or holding records adequately when it comes to data, that they may be on that higher income, higher wealth bracket.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m curious to know whether the Minister did any work to model whether these figures need to be adjusted as time goes on, and how he arrived to the conclusion that you needed a $20,000 and $50,000 break for those two things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022272ac6bb81f34ddb9c01be114c0dcba8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022272ac6bb81f34ddb9c01be114c0dcba8\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March asks a question about how the quantum was arrived at, and the short answer is that it was a comparison with other existing commercial and criminal penalties in similar regimes. So it\u2019s in parallel and in line with others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to just come back to a matter that Arena Williams raised about the removal of clauses 47 and 48, and she made reference to the New Zealand Banking Association, I think?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d333ff6cea4a43ad8221e6c6c07425\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: The Financial Service Providers scheme, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c30baaf0d2e4113846d45919854758f\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. So as a result of a submission made by the New Zealand Banking Association, officials decided, upon further reflection, that those policies in clauses 47 and 48 would add unnecessary compliance cost, especially for data holders. And for accredited requesters, they considered that the need for a policy could potentially be part of an accreditation criteria. So that was the reason that those have been taken out, because we think that those sorts of provisions are better placed within the accreditation criteria regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1f027e3f7234908afe2ab184d4911ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1f027e3f7234908afe2ab184d4911ac\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just picking up on clause\u00A051, around the complaints and regulated data services, I am just wanting to get a sense from the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs around some of the penalties and some of the complaints but also some clarification around clause\u00A051(2), where it says\u2014and this does seem quite broad, so I\u2019m wanting to get a bit of a sense of some clarification around how broad it is or what the restrictions are and what the discretion might be in this space. This is clause\u00A051(2), which reads: \u201CThe regulations may disapply any requirement or restriction imposed under any other legislation in connection with a change to the rules of a scheme.\u201D It does seem particularly broad and it would be good just to get some clarification from the Minister on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EIt does go on, in subclause\u00A0(4), to provide a little more definition of this, but it still feels that clause\u00A051(2) reads quite broadly and quite openly, and it would be good to get some clarification from the Minister specifically on 51(2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f66308a0261c4747acb769256c16bcc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f66308a0261c4747acb769256c16bcc2\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Deliberately broad, because, as I\u2019ve indicated several times now, the detail will be in the regulations and that detail will differ from sector to sector. The detail that may be in the regulations for banking may, by definition, be different to the regulations for electricity or indeed other sectors. Again, the legislation is the framework upon which the regulations for each sector will hang, and that\u2019s the best answer I can give the member Reuben Davidson on this occasion at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00221d5d07ec11c640fc8afe5878f5f5fad4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d5d07ec11c640fc8afe5878f5f5fad4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Amendment Paper 254 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b02025c265384b5a8b628c69d60b2ecb\u0022\u003EPart 4  Regulatory and enforcement matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0da98c4894a4931839602123c4bac8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0da98c4894a4931839602123c4bac8f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 4. This is the debate on clauses 54 to 95, \u201CRegulatory and enforcement matters\u201D. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022364d24280791424789ec95e0a79bcc96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022364d24280791424789ec95e0a79bcc96\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E My question to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs on this part is: is there anything in this part that would disincentivise small players\u2014the smallest players\u2014to be able to be effective in the market? That\u2019s something all of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee wants to see: a \u201Cgo for it\u201D attitude from this Government on this. There are some enforcement provisions which we heard submissions on that people were worried about, but I\u2019m really asking him to comment on the way that the system works and enables.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00226be4a8cbb1bf42159b8432117c355ba9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226be4a8cbb1bf42159b8432117c355ba9\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Well, just quickly in answer to that, again, the system is going to be regulated, so that will again differ depending on the sector that is being regulated under the primary legislation. I\u2019m not in a position to give a specific answer to the member, but this part has been drafted and worded in a way that provides the framework for regulations to occur, and that\u2019s, I think, now been well explained on several occasions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00223fac1053ecfe4a3c9e8506991646715e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fac1053ecfe4a3c9e8506991646715e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 4 set out on Amendment Paper 254 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f383fa077c124a9ab637d48d6fe18d62\u0022\u003EPart 5  Administrative matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00221740810cf0c04889ae190d6a143fde1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221740810cf0c04889ae190d6a143fde1a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 5. Part 5 is the debate on clauses 96 to 147, \u201CAdministrative matters\u201D. The question is that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 5 set out on Amendment Paper 254 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002229c09a70cfbc487e9e438232458c8eb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229c09a70cfbc487e9e438232458c8eb8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224846d921ebe7417287e725562f3c30e6\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00228bae08d2e05143aea16b72e03e6a274d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bae08d2e05143aea16b72e03e6a274d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate, clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4780d99ea4c4f8aad8b7919f5979fac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4780d99ea4c4f8aad8b7919f5979fac\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E This is a great moment to be supporting this bill. It is a bill which many parties in this House have come together to work on and to come to some practical solutions to issues which have been really troubling for the introduction of this consumer data right. But we are here now. There are some things that Labour members would have changed, but we can absolutely live with this regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s got to be a regime which allows the secondary legislation to be enabling for fintechs and for small players, especially in open banking. That is something that the Government continuously points to as an important structural reform for competition, and so we want it to work. We need this on the ground now. That\u2019s why we\u2019re supporting it in haste, although I would have liked to see this bill called the \u201CConsumer Data Right\u201D. Restricting it to customers is unnecessarily narrowing\u2014it makes this about transactions. People should be at the heart of the way we design our digital economy. There is no need for us to ignore the potential for this to be applied to all consumers. All New Zealanders can benefit from a regime which encourages innovation and which encourages small tech companies to be able to use data to benefit everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn the situation that the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs described with energy companies being able to use data for people who are not the bill payer, but they are people who will massively benefit from being able to use technology with smart meters in their homes to better understand their bills\u2014so I would have liked this to retain its name under Labour, the Hon Dr David Clark, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb and former National members who have been involved with this, the Hon Jacqui Dean, people who have championed the use of this kind of right by all people. We would have seen that as a consumer right; as a consumer protection. So it is a missed opportunity to say clearly what this bill is about, but we still commend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EClause\u00A01 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EClause\u00A02 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5825c8b781145dbbec7cbbb97db3a17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5825c8b781145dbbec7cbbb97db3a17\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Customer and Product Data Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d126a4ae2c494bfeb689a79437ad9562\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d126a4ae2c494bfeb689a79437ad9562\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022385942080dd14e51b959ae50e8f537db\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002243cbde60e38742e4bfd7743e4ed06ba3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243cbde60e38742e4bfd7743e4ed06ba3\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Customer and Product Data Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f76b27abd0ee4716b8c70d8c29653b38\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0436754163f400eab7d8fa105a9e3de\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Customer and Product Data Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThis is an important bill. It\u2019s a crucial piece of legislation that will help improve competition in New Zealand and help Kiwi consumers get a better deal\u2014quite literally a better deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to start by thanking members of this House, particularly those members who sit on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, for their collaborative consideration of the bill. In particular, I want to thank committee chair Dr Parmjeet Parmar. I also want to thank all the New Zealanders who submitted on the bill and those I have spoken to about it, and your experiences of the potential that it has for trying to access better data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EPut simply, this bill will enable easier and more efficient sharing of customer and product data. It will give people more choice and more power in a range of settings\u2014for example, when shopping for a mortgage, and that\u2019s an example that we used during the committee of the whole House stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThis legislation will also support innovation and competition across key sectors, encouraging businesses to offer new products and services using the data they already hold. Better choice and competition, of course, leads to higher productivity and, ultimately, to economic growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe third reading of this bill could not have been more timely, and I would point to a couple of news stories from just the past week that illustrate why we need this bill and why we need it now. Radio New Zealand did a report on the Commerce Commission\u2019s study from last week, and it found that nearly one-third of mobile and broadband consumers have not switched providers because, simply, it\u2019s too hard. In a National Business Review article earlier this week, Powerswitch said that because not all retailers are playing ball and sharing information, it\u2019s difficult to support people wanting to switch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EUntil now, businesses holding customer and product data had little or no incentive to invest in better data-sharing technology and/or agreements, and this has stifled innovation and consumers have suffered as a result. This bill sets up the framework to change that and puts power back in the hands of those who own the data: consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo what does this bill all mean? Well, how does it help the average Kiwi\u2014fed up, for instance, with their power plan or wanting to switch to a new bank? Well, it means easier, more efficient access to, and sharing of, their own data\u2014saving them, ultimately, time and money. And it means the obvious potential for no more manually comparing different providers to find the best deal, the potential for no more downloading and sending statements to accountants manually, the potential for no more imbalance in negotiating power for companies that hold mass data on your behalf. Instead, this bill means that more time and money for what matters to most people, their families, their businesses, and their personal enjoyment can be freed up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ERecently, I had the privilege of speaking at a fintech industry event in Auckland where I met Dr Bill Roberts, a UK expert in open banking, and he told me about an app in the UK called Snoop, that links to the major banks and, among other things, helps consumers avoid the loyalty premium. And you might ask, \u201CWhat\u2019s the loyalty premium?\u201D Well, that means alerting users to hikes, for instance, in subscription or other regular charges that they might not otherwise notice. I think that\u2019s going to be enormously beneficial, should something like Snoop be available in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut I want to make it clear that this bill doesn\u2019t just benefit consumers. When they gain access to new products and services, businesses also can increase productivity and concentrate on innovating and growing. Easier and more efficient data-sharing means businesses\u2014not just customers\u2014can also reap the time- and cost-saving benefits that I\u2019m sure will accrue as a result of this piece of legislation. Going back to the UK, just as an example, businesses there have saved, on average, 150 hours a year thanks to a simple open banking application. That\u2019s a case of, literally, where time is money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo what does this bill do? Well, as I\u2019ve outlined, the bill establishes a flexible framework that can be applied to different sectors of our economy, like banking or electricity. This will be introduced gradually through the regulations that the legislation provides for, sector by sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ELet me give you a few examples of how it will work in practice. For banking and electricity, people may no longer need to sift through months of bank statements when they want to get a mortgage, or months of statements and payment bills or invoices when they want to compare electricity plans that sometimes can be confusing, to say the least. If a fintech provider can amalgamate that information in an easy-to-use application, in a format that is customer- and user-friendly, then all power to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EPeople may no longer need to give away their online banking details to use cheaper payment options when they\u2019re, for instance, booking or wanting to book an airline flight. That\u2019s another simple potential application for this piece of legislation. Budgeting and saving applications will be significantly optimised to help customers make the most of their hard-earned money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe bill provides a safe environment in which customers, including individuals and businesses, can get the most out of their data. The speedy roll-out of open banking is a big priority for me and my ministerial team, and that\u2019s why I\u2019ve committed to have open banking fully operational by the end of this calendar year. I will be seeking Cabinet approval on an open banking designation very shortly, and I look forward to announcing more details about that very soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I want to close once again by thanking everyone who\u2019s had their say in shaping this important legislation, to the many Kiwis who have shared their experiences, and I recognise the difficulties that some of them have faced. I\u2019m pleased today that this Government will be passing this bill that addresses these problems by enabling better access to data. I want to also note that the support of cross-party consensus around this legislation, I think, is welcomed and is an example of this Parliament working at its best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI\u2019m excited to see the opportunities that the bill unlocks for banking and other sectors, and the part that that will play in people\u2019s everyday lives. I commend it most excitedly to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6933ef873a1488c929feba9272d4080\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6933ef873a1488c929feba9272d4080\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022b515524b47554d23b49bc5e8768a099e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b515524b47554d23b49bc5e8768a099e\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to take a call in this third reading of the Customer and Product Data Bill, that I\u2019m told should be called the Consumer Data Bill\u2014but, look, missed opportunities. There is no desire from Labour members to slow this down. We\u2019re happy to see the progress of this bill and we welcome the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u2019 enthusiasm to announce an\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0046242b816474bb28cd039d56efee8\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Excitement, even.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225337c0bf10954dc3ae1e5ab2f29005ba\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014open banking designation. My colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking is excited about it. We\u2019ve got some laughs and good cheer on this side of the House. We are happy to be seeing this through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere are things that we would have changed. In the time that Labour members have shepherded this piece of legislation through, Ministers have been working very closely with the sector, not only the fintechs but also in electricity and other sectors like telecommunications. There is a lot of enthusiasm out there, and goodwill from the industry, to work with Government and to get these systems right so that customers and consumers in New Zealand can use the products and the innovation that this bill promises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut, yeah, there is a bit of an irony in the Government using the urgency process to do this when it is non-contentious legislation and when we could have given this a really good going over and made sure that not only our select committee process but our committee of the whole House stages were used in a way to really iron out some of these details. Because, let\u2019s be honest, there are going to be parts of this legislation which don\u2019t work as intended. There are going to be parts of the regulation, which are not drafted yet and are not finalised yet, that we are going to need to revisit. And it brings me back to the need for this process to be robust and for people to have faith and confidence in the system to be not only taking the needs of industry into account but the needs of consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI reflect on the opportunity of the Minister to speak at a recent fintech conference. The fintechs have been very, very, very helpful to members of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, and members around this House, in understanding how this will roll out for open banking. I really want to thank them, especially those smaller players who are taking time off work, they\u2019re coming along to the select committee, and they\u2019re submitting to a group of parliamentarians when they have put not only their own money into developing these systems but a huge amount of voluntary time and effort, as well as the voluntary time of others\u2014a huge amount of mentoring goes into this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThen, there\u2019s also the voice of consumers. We have many New Zealanders who absolutely do not know what\u2019s coming with this. It is, hopefully, going to massively improve their experience of using not only banking services but other services, so we need New Zealanders to know and appreciate and understand this. We have an advantage, here, in being able to use the existing privacy provisions in New Zealand\u2014they\u2019re great; they should be respected and be better known by people, but they are a great starting point that is well established in New Zealand, which other jurisdictions didn\u2019t have. But it still doesn\u2019t mean that New Zealanders are going to warm up to the system quickly. We know that for the industry to be able to be scalable and to be able to take advantage of a great, empowering piece of legislation like this, we\u2019re going to need customers to understand these rules widely and have faith in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI want to make sure that everyone will be able to use this. It\u2019s not going to do everything, because people won\u2019t be able to use it, won\u2019t be able to understand it, in some segments of the market. There are people like\u2014I held a clinic for pensioners recently at Glenveagh Park Drive and I spoke to a chap there who would have been in his 80s and he walked down to the corner to see us. His big concern was his electricity bill. He\u2019s seeing another $10 being added on from 1\u00A0April, which he is already planning for. As a person on a fixed income, that\u2019s something which will affect him\u2014it might not seem like a lot. But for him, there is no solution to his worries, in having a more open and enabling system of consumer data rights. It\u2019s all well and good for the Government to point to choice and power being the intervention that it would choose in these industries that are very uncompetitive, but there are going to be these consumers who are not helped by this at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhen we talk about competition, we want competition that benefits everyone. Not all competition is good. We want competition which actually delivers price benefits to people and price transparency over not only the short term but the long term. So with an open banking regime, we absolutely expect that to drive efficiencies and pricing in certain products. But we need to make sure that our banking system, supermarkets, air fares, and the price of getting around and living is something which remains a focus for this Government\u2014this Government which campaigned on the cost of living. It was the number one issue in New Zealanders\u2019 minds then; it is the number one issue in New Zealanders\u2019 minds now. If customer data rights is the Government\u2019s way of changing the playing field for customers, then we need to make sure it works for everyone, because it won\u2019t make a difference in those industries where we know there are huge competition barriers still. We know we need to do more in that, and I look forward to the Government really tackling that, because that is what it promised New Zealanders it would do and it would focus on. We cannot afford distractions from that project of making sure that Government power is being used for the little guy, that the little guy is getting the best deal possible here in all of these sectors. These consumer data rights are only a part of that\u2014they\u2019re enabling, and that\u2019s why we are so keen on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019m thinking about how consumers being in the driver\u2019s seat in how their data is used is going to make a difference in the long term. The way this is used in the UK, and in those jurisdictions where there\u2019s been a proliferation of different sorts of apps, is there\u2019s not only a comparison of product in between players in the sector, like home loans across different banks, but products within a certain provider, like within a certain electricity provider that offers a range of products based on usage. Those are products which are going to be incredibly helpful for New Zealanders. Currently, there are different sorts of providers that offer different sorts of products and compete in different sorts of ways, but if you\u2019re not someone who has access to, as the Minister put it, your own little spreadsheet or grid where you\u2019re comparing these things, you just don\u2019t have access to that in a way which is digestible. So being able to use that data, not only your own data but being able to compare it to other people\u2019s rates and uses, is really important and will be very useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the work that\u2019s gone into this over many years. The need to design a system that is both industry led and industry responsive has been huge here. It has created, I guess, real enthusiasm from people to be involved with the Government officials that have been working on this. The way that people, from my experience, have been engaging with it has been really hands-on. In the committee stage, we were able to traverse some of the issues\u2014around the way that Payments NZ have nobly stepped up to the plate here and led a process around open banking that has not only involved the big banks but also some of the smaller players.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe way that Labour was approaching this was different with the smaller players. We were making sure they had other ways to feed into the system. But this has the benefit of having been quick, being really efficient, and we all acknowledge that we need something in the legislation that enables this work to happen and happen now. So I hope that we get this right. But we do want to keep the door open to those smaller players. We need to be saying and, all around this House, agreeing that the small fintechs that do this off their own bat, that maybe mortgage the house\u2014that they\u2019ve put their own savings into this\u2014all need a fair shake on this. So if the system isn\u2019t working for those players, that is the canary in the goldmine that says it\u2019s not working. So we want to hear from those players, as soon as the open banking designation is announced, whether it\u2019s going to work for them, because we cannot afford a system where smaller players are either left behind or can only succeed when they are partnered with a bigger bank. This applies to many, many different sectors, but I\u2019m thinking about banking particularly because that is the one that the Minister is concerned with now, and that is the one that the Government is pointing to as the industry that it is interested in the competition effect of opening banking in, now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe policy intent of this has to be that you do not need to succeed, if you are the Doshs of this world, by partnering with a bigger bank like Westpac, which was announced recently. You must be able to succeed on your own two feet, under this kind of regulation, because, otherwise, we are not enjoying the benefits of competition, where lots of little players are nipping at the heels of the big guys; we are in fact incentivising the big guys to eat them right up. That is not a system that anyone around the House was agreeing to when this legislation was passing. It is a system which is anti-competitive, in which we\u2019ll see anti-competitive effects in New Zealand\u2019s market going forward. So we want to hear about that; we want to hear about the operation of that. We will certainly, on this side of the House, be watching the way that the regulations are designed to promote that competition rather than to shut it down and incentivise the smaller players to need to partner with the bigger ones. Also looking to the\u2014and that is my speech; I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00220a469dc7b14a437fab3a6034c716a2e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a469dc7b14a437fab3a6034c716a2e2\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. I rise in support of the Customer and Product Data Bill. I think particularly when so much of the time in this House is consumed by members of the coalition importing culture wars, scapegoating our migrant communities or queer communities rather than addressing the material needs of people, it\u2019s refreshing to see a bill that actually aims to address the material realities of people. It\u2019s doing it in a way that reforms the system in relationship to a consumer data right regime. In this case, it will liberalise it and will enhance consumer rights. The intent in here is that through consumers having more options and more information to be able to make decisions about, for example, which bank provider they choose to go to, which gym they will get a better deal out of, or an electricity provider, that will have a tangible material cost of living benefit for families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI think, to me, this is why in the committee of the whole House stage I was trying to get more granular around the outcomes that this bill is promoting, because there are a lot of definitions in this bill, but I think the bill fails to capture and make the argument for competition and innovation driving better material results. In the case of this bill, I do think, particularly when it comes to the banking sector and a few other businesses, those cases have been made, particularly by advocacy groups who have campaigned for many, many years to have this kind of regime in place. I want to acknowledge the many campaigners out there who have campaigned for things like an open banking regime. This is one of those important first steps. I acknowledge former Ministers from the previous Government who started this piece of work, and commend the current Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs for carrying it forward. This is one of those rare examples where we do have cross-party consensus on an issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe other issues that I think are important to acknowledge as well will be on the implementation side, because as we have this economy-wide consumer data right regime to give consumers in some sectors more control over how their data is accessed and used, and to promote innovation and facilitate secure, standardised, and efficient data services, how consumers are able to make the most of this bill will actually rely on information that is provided and delivered to communities on the ground so that they can make the most of what the regime is putting in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo the Government may come into some equity issues, and who\u2019s taking up the benefits of what this bill is actually proposing? So I\u2019m thinking, for example, English as a second language communities\u2014they already struggle, actually, accessing many services, for example, in places like banking, so some banks do decide to go the extra mile to ensure that their services are accessible to migrant communities and English as a second language communities. But, when it comes to them, for example, being able to access the data and the information to actually be able to get a good deal out of a provider, I think them understanding how this new regime will affect them will be absolutely critical. What I think we don\u2019t want in the implementation of this bill is for there to be new inequities arising as a result of inadequate resourcing to bridge the divide on who already has been able to access services like banking, which has been used a lot, in relationship to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EDisabled people will be another group that I think stand to benefit from the Government investing a bit more resource into how this bill is implemented. We know already that disabled people face additional barriers to, for example, accessing banking services and accessing utilities, and those businesses don\u2019t often take the additional steps to make the information accessible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo when it comes to how disabled people are able to access this data, I do think that the Government may think of how they choose to, again, roll out the benefits of this bill and the information in relationship to this bill. This is also a challenge for particularly the big players in some industries to do what is right. Because, ultimately, what we have here\u2014and once again I\u2019m going to reference banking\u2014is the big players in the banking industry continue to make humongous profits, even when the everyday person is struggling to make ends meet. What that tells us is that these companies have their resources to actually do what is right in ensuring that information is adequately available on how people can make use of the regime in this bill to get a good deal. I think, to me, that will rely on the Government itself actually issuing a challenge to big businesses to make sure that they cooperate and do not become barriers in the uptake of how the information in this bill can be facilitated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe other area that I think is worth noting\u2014and the previous speaker, Arena Williams, touched on a huge amount of substance and technical details in this bill\u2014is on deterrence factors that have been put in this space to prevent this data not being adequately used. We have some relatively static figures, and I do thank the Minister for being really upfront, actually, in the committee of the whole House stage in giving fulsome answers to our questions. That does not always happen in other bills, so I appreciate the Minister being new to his role and yet being so willing to constructively engage in the committee of the whole House stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI think, though, the infringement fees that are being laid out in this bill pose the question that when you have fees that are static, what this means is that for the really, really wealthy individuals, they become less and less of a deterrence factor. So I think, to me, that\u2019s something that we\u2019d like to see reviewed and ensure that the deterrence factors put in this bill actually deter the particularly big players from not taking part of the stuff that is intended to benefit our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI also wanted to comment on the fact that we are seeing this bill advance under urgency. It is something that has been used a lot, actually, throughout this term, to advance different pieces of legislation. I think our communities, particularly when we see bills like this one that has been relatively constructive, do deserve the guarantee that we\u2019re following due process. I just cannot see an argument for why a bill such as this one needed to be progressed under urgency. The case has not been transparently made by the Government, and I think, to me, that\u2019s something that we deserve clarity on as to why this specific bill was chosen to be progressed under urgency this week. That\u2019s incredibly important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EFinally, I hope that the Government also takes actions to measure and work with the industry to quantify the cost of living benefits of this bill, because I think, once again, if the argument is that innovation and competition drives material benefits for our communities, I think the Government needs to be able to take steps to quantify those, to make the case for advancing bills such as this one. I think the late work on the quantification of the cost of living benefits of a bill like this was actually done by community advocates who actually put forward case studies and stories around the barriers that people face when it comes to having the information and the data that they need to make informed decisions as to which provider they go to, whether it\u2019s banking, electricity, even things like the gym that they choose to participate in, and whatever else it may be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI think that will also help to quantify, for example, whether it is in the big players\u2019 space\u2014like big banks, where we\u2019re seeing the greatest benefit\u2014and whether the small players are actually also then delivering better outcomes by the nature of whether consumers are able to access information more easily and therefore to compete for better prices, for example. That\u2019s going to be really, really important, particularly for those people that are living week to week, month by month, many of whom, for example, when it comes to the decision that they make in terms of going with a specific provider, have a genuine opportunity cost about whether they\u2019re able to, for example\u2014if they choose to go to a fitness centre that may actually infringe on them being able to meet their needs at the grocery store. So, you know, this is why it\u2019s going to be really important to have that information put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe Green Party does support the intent of this bill. We commend the select committee that did the work on the bill to honour the contributions by submitters, and we hope that the Government focuses more on delivering material improvements for our communities rather than caving into imported American culture wars that only seek to divide our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6fff809404f4eaca77b20c3ba268880\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6fff809404f4eaca77b20c3ba268880\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of ACT to support the Customer and Product Data Bill. This is a bill which I have seen so far, from those who have spoken before, is being supported by all parties that have spoken, so I won\u2019t take too much of the House\u2019s time. What I would say is that this is the bill that is to set up an economy-wide framework to allow easier access of customer and product data. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EUltimately, it\u2019s all about data. We know that consumers are always creating data, and that data is held by the entities they deal with. Consumers sometimes really struggle to get that data transferred to other entities. So this bill will enable easier and convenient transfer of data and that will be controlled by consumers. This is ultimately about empowering the consumer. What will that lead to? That will lead to innovation, competition, and we expect that with the passing of this bill, there will be new entrants in the market. I heard a lot of excitement about open banking, so yes, that is the area that is going to be designated first, and then electricity, and telecommunications, as we have heard from the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs. So all these sectors will be up for competition. We expect new entrants will be coming because of easier availability of data. With data, these different companies can see what our consumers need, and they can provide product that will suit consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EAnother thing that this bill provides for is that the product data that is made available should be easily read and processed by a computer. So that will make it easier for consumers to switch suppliers. So sometimes if consumers can\u2019t understand what that product data is, then they won\u2019t be able to make that decision. But this bill will provide for ensuring that product data is easily read and processed by a computer so that consumers can make a calculated choice of where they want to be if they want to switch from one supplier to the other supplier. When the suppliers know that consumers can switch from one supplier to the other supplier, they will innovate, they will do their best to provide the best possible service of the products to their consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003ENow, when it comes to data transfer, one thing that comes to mind is about how secure is that data transfer. So this bill also provides for a standardised and secure way of transfer of data. There are a lot of incentives for customers to use this bill once it\u2019s implemented to allow for sharing of data. We have learnt from Australia. In Australia\u2014as we have heard before as well from the Minister when the Minister was in the chair during the committee of the whole House\u2014the uptake of this consumer data regime hasn\u2019t been that great. We have learnt from Australia, and we have tried to make changes in the committee stage to ensure that those kinds of hurdles are removed from this legislation so that the uptake is better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to say that there are a few things that I know that are in the bill. If we had started working on this bill from the start, we might have done those things differently, because I know that this bill originated under the previous Labour Government. But overall, to support innovation, to support competition, and to ensure that consumers are able to get better deals, the ACT Party supports this bill. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u00222dc12795e0094a48af558e2c69201740\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dc12795e0094a48af558e2c69201740\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I stand on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Customer and Product Data Bill. I too was also on the select committee for this bill and it was a very interesting process seeing it go through. Look, it\u2019s a much-needed piece of legislation. Times have changed. When I was a young accountant many decades ago and I bought by very first computer, it was a Macintosh Classic. It was about the size of one of our handbags and I used to literally take it from client to client\u2014pick it up. So I suppose that is what data transfer was like back in those days\u2014\u201Cthe olden days\u201D, as my nieces and nephews used to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EThings have changed and it is now important that we are able to provide a service for not only the customer but also for businesses\u2014small and big businesses. This will be an advantage to all. It will allow people to have a bit of control as well. It\u2019s an area where a lot of people may want to put their head in the sand and not have to look at spreadsheets and numbers, but this will make it easier for them to have a little bit more control of their finances and their lives. New Zealand First commends it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u00225e8ff29ee7be4f7fba357288943f88ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e8ff29ee7be4f7fba357288943f88ce\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I stand in support of the Customer and Product Data Bill. We support the intent of this bill to combat and to protect ordinary people from anti-competitive behaviour. We want to make sure that ordinary people have choices so that they aren\u2019t taken advantage of and feel secure that their data is serving them and not anyone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe know that this won\u2019t make a difference to the vast and real issues of capitalism\u2014you know, capitalism, colonisation; best friends\u2014but I know that the intent of this bill is that we are going to be serving the people of Aotearoa, and I think it\u2019s really important that when we go through these select committee processes, we are hearing a wide range of views from our communities that this bill will affect, and particularly our disabled community. We need to hear their voices in this because we know that things like banking and access are a real issue to them\u2014actually getting the same services that people who don\u2019t have the same barriers have access to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWhen I was a banker, at the beginning of the week\u2014in fact, most days\u2014we would sit and get the comparative rates from all the banks around New Zealand. We knew, actually, which banks were probably going to be serving our customers better, but we couldn\u2019t give that information to our customers unless they asked specifically, and this bill will go a long way in making sure that customers have access to that really important information. It means that third parties are able to go, \u201CHey, what you are asking for, tailoring those banking needs\u2014the bank you\u2019re with isn\u2019t actually serving your needs as well as this bank over here could.\u201D And that just makes sense, because New Zealand is a modern society and we need our laws to reflect that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EIn saying that, I think that making sure that people feel like their data is secure and only being used for purposes that will actually benefit them is so important for our modern society and ensuring that we are moving towards the intent of this bill, which is to move away from that anti-competitive behaviour and protect ordinary people. So we\u2019re very happy to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022c829b3e0cdeb4171be66108552d7606e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c829b3e0cdeb4171be66108552d7606e\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a delight to be able to speak on this bill, having been part of the progress through all stages, including the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. We did have excellent discussions, and it was wonderful to be able to make some sensible and, hopefully, very impactful changes to the legislation as it\u2019s come through. We are very excited about the potential improvements that this should make in several sectors, including banking, towards improving competition. I think this will actually be a great first step amongst many that our Government will be making. It all comes down to improving options for customers and reducing barriers. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u00224d13399cf519431a9be6a4ec462537ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d13399cf519431a9be6a4ec462537ef\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. There are so many short calls on this Customer and Product Data Bill that we\u2019re moving through very quickly, and I think the pity about that would be that we missed the opportunity at this third reading to actually dig deeply into what it is that we agree on but also what points of difference there may still be with the Customer and Product Data Bill at this third reading, even if there is broad support across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI was really lucky to sit on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee and to hear and witness the development process as this bill came to that committee and as we heard from submitters, and also to get the various perspectives and inputs. They are all slightly different and slightly unique, even though, in principle, we all agree with the idea of opening up things like banking and opening up things like the electricity market, because what it comes down to is empowering consumers. We do that by increasing competition and, by doing that, allowing consumers more freedom to create fairer outcomes for those consumers and for them to get some better value.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EA number of speakers have acknowledged the long lineage of this bill, first through David Parker, then Duncan Webb, then as a member\u2019s bill led by\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251aca759e2c944439c2dff4a8d5ce06b\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: It was Clark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a1891914748424a9fea121c23b0b7cb\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, David Clark\u2014David Clark, before that, then Duncan Webb, then as a member\u2019s bill from Arena Williams, then by Andrew Bayly, and then Scott Simpson. Someone has suggested that potentially a bill like this needs a bill of its own just to manage its lineage because it has moved from so many different supporters and suppliers over its lifetime as it has moved through the House. But that\u2019s why it\u2019s so good for us to be here tonight and to be able to step through it with a little care, and to take the time to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I wanted to speak to was the name change that it had along the way. Different parents have different priorities\u2014that\u2019s true in all areas. Under Labour, this was called the Consumer Data Rights Bill. Under the National Government, who have seen this come to its third reading, it\u2019s morphed into the Customer and Product Data Bill. I think that whilst that may seem subtle, it\u2019s worth noting the differences there, because the Consumer Data Rights Bill really focused on prioritising consumers and focusing on the needs of consumers to be able to be more nimble, to be able to deftly move between suppliers much more easily so that they can get a better value and a better deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019ve looked into studies and seen the differences that consumers can achieve, right now it\u2019s quite difficult for people to think about shifting power suppliers, for example. But if you move power suppliers or if you look at moving power suppliers, the average saving for a New Zealander is more than $500 per year. That\u2019s a significant amount of money, and that\u2019s what a good bill like this can achieve for New Zealanders\u2014that ability to move much more easily between suppliers, and, in that example, suppliers of power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESo in reviewing this bill and looking at what this bill does, I think it\u2019s important that we focus on the consumer benefit aspect of the bill. One of the objectives was to realise the value of certain data for the benefits of individuals, organisations, and society. That felt quite broad, but it did ultimately capture what we needed to capture. Although, really, in essence\u2014as I alluded to earlier when I spoke about the difference between the Consumer Data Rights Bill versus the Customer and Product Data Bill\u2014a truly consumer-centric approach is essential to ensuring that the bill achieves its goals, which is empowering consumers through increasing competition and creating fairer outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, one of the things that we did speak about a fair bit this afternoon\u2014but is worth revisiting\u2014is that regulation of derived data. I think that data 10 years ago was very different in value and in volume than it is today, and if we look at what data is going to be and the power of data in 10 years, it\u2019s almost impossible to imagine just how significant that shift is going to be over the next 10 years, with the kinds of technology and the kinds of opportunities that are open to us in the data space. So there is an enormous power in data and that\u2019s why getting these key components and the framework in this bill is so important to ensure that whilst we are allowing people to share more of their data and for that data to empower consumers, we do need to put the protections in place to prevent any abuses of people\u2019s data and to ensure that there are adequate facilities for people, whilst they may have granted permission for their data to have been received and stored and potentially shared, that it is equally as easy and fast and simple for people to then be able to withdraw the provision of their data and withdraw the supply of their data so that that data continues to belong to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThere was quite a bit of discussion as we went through the committee of the whole House this afternoon with exactly what that looked like and exactly what the considerations of privacy looked like in the New Zealand context, given the variance with the older sibling\u2014Australia\u2014that we often compare ourselves to when we roll out this kind of bill. So I think it was really good that we acknowledged that through that process, and I thank the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs for the time and detail that he allowed through that process. It was really valuable that we were able to see the different context in the older sibling Australia, who don\u2019t have the Privacy Act provisions that we do here, and, therefore, the variances for that data consideration in the New Zealand context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, the other piece\u2014which I don\u2019t have time to go into fully here, but I will still address it at this point in the third reading\u2014is really the penalty and dispute resolution portion of the bill, and looking at whether that got the balance right between having a significant-enough penalty to dissuade and disincentivise the abuse of power, which there is the scope and potential for, and not creating an environment of keeping people out. One of the major considerations that was particularly raised a lot from this side of the House was ensuring that a bill that aims to serve consumers does provide the incentive and the opportunity for smaller operators, potentially and particularly in the instance of open banking\u2014smaller fintechs\u2014to be able to step into this space and know that even though they don\u2019t carry the weight and resource of the larger banks by way of personnel, they will still be able to work within the framework of the Customer and Product Data Bill to provide an additional service, another option, and a level of service that can be trusted and can provide good value for consumers, because that\u2019s the thing that\u2019s quite easy to lose sight of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EWhen we get into the detail and what we call sometimes the weeds in this legislation, and we start to look at clauses and numbers, and letters and letters after letters, it\u2019s very easy to lose sight of the fact that, actually, what we are trying to do here is empower consumers. So I think it\u2019s really important that we don\u2019t lose sight of that in amongst all of the backwards and forwards agreement, in general, on this bill. What we saw today was broad and general agreement with the direction of travel towards empowering open banking and towards creating an electricity market that allows consumers to move around and get a better deal for them and their families in order to make sure that they are paying\u2014yes\u2014a fair amount, but not more than they need to, because we know that the impacts of those fixed costs have a real negative impact on families and people who are trying to make ends meet in these times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESo a bill like this really provides greater flexibility for consumers. Thank you to all of those people who have shepherded it through from the very beginning under Labour, and thank you to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee colleagues. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022d023a88e4b754e2b95b058ce1525dac9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d023a88e4b754e2b95b058ce1525dac9\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E This is a good bill, and has the potential to drive competitiveness, productivity, and innovation in the target sectors that the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs will designate. Target sectors like banking\u2014and I\u2019ve been on the banking inquiry, and I think there\u2019s really good feedback about this bill in terms of driving competition. I\u2019d like to thank the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, the previous Government, plus our previous Minister Andrew Bayly and current Minister. It is all part of our plan to grow our economy and lift productivity. And with that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a445274748a6412ebe40903405cf9df7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a445274748a6412ebe40903405cf9df7\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. One of the difficulties in a place like this where you can be swapped from one committee to another, and I want to acknowledge the very hard-working and well-led Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, which I was a member of up until recent times\u2014I now find myself on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee that considered this bill and am excited about the opportunity given the collegiality I\u2019ve seen in the debate on this particular bill moving forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe can talk about the semantics around the difference between customer and consumer, but I want to use the words of the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, which I think are quite relevant and something that I know we all believe in, which are: this is my data, it belongs to me, it is part of me, it is who I am. I think, ultimately, when we look towards the way we protect that data, the way we share that data, the way that businesses like banks and others might use that data, and then the expectations we have on them protecting it just as much as we\u2019d look towards protecting it ourselves, I think this bill does a good thing in making sure that, as already mentioned, we can look towards new markets, new horizons, new opportunities in business. But ultimately, it comes down to how we protect, how we store, how we share our data, and that\u2019s really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve raised, during the debate on this bill, the work of a group called Te K\u0101hui Raraunga. For those unfamiliar, it is a M\u0101ori data collective born out of the Iwi Chairs Forum. I raise them because they do some amazing work when we think about data sovereignty and the way that we look and care for data, the way that we enter into partnerships with external partners from our daily lives, not just at a tribal level but also at a macro and a micro level in the way that we interact with people in the use of our data. And that only works if the public and if the consumer\u2014the customer, the person, the individual\u2014buys into a secure system or a secure institution where they know that their mana, their data, and their information will not be compromised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat we know is that\u2019s difficult. We\u2019ve seen it in the past. In fact, there have been a number of reports about how data can be misused, how data can be used in a way that doesn\u2019t keep the individual or even the collective safe. So we want to make sure that whatever we pass today continues to build that trust and confidence that\u2019s needed to make sure that we believe in these kinds of institutions. That\u2019s easier said than done given the kind of mood that we see voters, New Zealanders, people all around the world\u2014the mood towards public institutions and the confidence they have in those institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe same can be said with matters such as banking and where we put our custom, if you will. So in passing this bill\u2014this is a good bill\u2014we take the point, though, that it opens up into new horizons, and the ability for the Minister and this House to come back to make sure that we can keep a regulatory framework that\u2019s agile. A lot of the examples we used during the debate of this bill were, \u201CIf I walked into a shop\u201D, and that\u2019s what we would normally have done; that\u2019s how many of us in this House have grown up. COVID taught us that shop doors look very different right around the world. Shop doors aren\u2019t just ones you walk in; shop doors are portals that you visit. There\u2019s so many different ways that you can achieve what we used to do by walking into a shop door once upon a time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo we want to make sure that we\u2019ve got this rock foundation\u2014or this foundation legislation as the Minister described it\u2014good, and I think we\u2019ve got consensus across the House. The second part is that regulatory framework and the flex that\u2019s required to make sure that it does continue to serve New Zealanders into the future. And we\u2019ll continue to work, I\u2019m sure, collegially across the House to make sure that particular thing happens, and we look forward to playing our part in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe only thing I\u2019ll caution here is too often, and we all know it, in a place like Parliament, the world moves on a lot faster than we can do things in here. So that\u2019s a warning to each and every one of us as we look towards the flexibility I know the Minister was hoping for in the regulatory framework in this bill: we must consider the way that we do things in here in order to keep agile, flexible, up with the current times, and up with the people who put us here. So we commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c61bd2e5236944fb9a49b1f9902e8d0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c61bd2e5236944fb9a49b1f9902e8d0c\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E As the previous speaker, the Hon Peeni Henare, has so eloquently said, this is a good bill. It\u2019s a bill that has been well canvassed. One of the many good things about our legislative process is that it is nothing but thorough, and we have considered all angles and all details of this during the debate this afternoon. So rather than delaying the debate further, it is my pleasure to commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00223602a5f8b6b84dbbabcc724671b0467b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223602a5f8b6b84dbbabcc724671b0467b\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I wanted to start by actually thanking the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs for the full answers that he gave in the committee stage, and I wanted to thank the many people who\u2019ve been involved in building this legislation, including my colleague Arena Williams, who took it on as a member\u2019s bill, and it\u2019s come through now to the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI think this bill is a little bit unusual in terms of what I\u2019ve seen come through this House in that it is actually quite a creative bill. The fact that it started under a Labour Government is actually something that I think still remains integral to what we\u2019ve ended up with in this bill in some pretty important ways. While there\u2019s been an argument about the use of the word \u201Ccustomer\u201D and the deletion of the word \u201Cconsumer\u201D between the major parties, because Labour preferred the term \u201Cconsumer\u201D, because that\u2019s based on kind of people rather than a transactional business approach, I think the use all the way through the legislation of a recognition of power imbalance is actually a reflection of that early drafting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo what we have here is a changing world, where something like data has become more valuable than it was and has been subject to misuse in a way that wasn\u2019t true in a world before. I take my friend the Hon Peeni Henare\u2019s point that data sovereignty is a pretty important principle. That links to the concept of consumer rather than simply a customer, but I think it also links to the wider importance of our duty to change up as things go on. What we\u2019ve got now is a world where this data that belongs to us has been monetised but it\u2019s also, in this situation, the dragging of information, so that it\u2019s closed off from people, that has been used anti-competitively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen that do real damage. We can see the black and white damage that that\u2019s done by the example given by another one of my colleagues, which was the issue over power and how much people are saving when they go to something like Powerswitch and they look at the comparative information and they make a decision to switch providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, Powerswitch are hampered by a lack of information in this area. I went on to the site myself and I looked at what I could put in and it was better than it could have been. I could see that I could generate a saving, I think, of over $1,000 a year, but it was based on guesswork. This availability of data is going to make sure that that becomes a slick process and a more reliable one, where I can actually see what the best saving scheme is before I sign up to a term of maybe a couple of years of being locked in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s the changing world we\u2019re in where that information becomes power and the dragging out and the keeping of that information can also be a depository of power against, yes, customers, but also consumers. So it is very much an important part of this that this House\u2014all sides of this House\u2014are becoming aware of a changing landscape. So while I\u2019ve heard some words in this House this very day where people have accused each other of being\u2014I think at one point it was capitalists; another point it was communists and Piketty devotees, etc. Actually, despite all of that banter and really banal rhetoric, what actually has to happen in this House is we have to show flexibility. We have to look at those big problems we\u2019ve got and look at them in terms of our basic values. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EFor the Labour Party, we do care a lot about power abuse. It\u2019s not a matter that is going anywhere very soon. But this little bill does some good in that area. It starts to redistribute that power and put it back in the hands of the average citizen. So for us, this bill is a very important one and it really is going to have a large impact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI think when I was in the committee stage I asked the Minister about some provisions where there were actually additions made to some of the protections that recognise that people who were perhaps saying that they wanted to give this data across might be also subject to kinds of abuse like financial abuse. To see those things go into the legislation at this late stage means that people are still thinking in those terms. This piece of legislation has opened people\u2019s minds to all those forms of power abuse, and so I really love this bill because of what it attempts to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, it won\u2019t necessarily get all the way. It will be a case of looking at it again. It will be a case of making sure that the regulations are actually appropriate. I love the way that the piece of legislation also involved those in the industry, also involved the submission process. I think we are on our way, when we look at something like this, as we adjust to a modern world\u2014we\u2019re dealing with a situation where globally we really do have to concern ourselves with the power of big business. It is so serious out there. That\u2019s our greatest threat to our democracy; it is the concentration of power in the hands of a few people. None of this would suit them. This is not going to suit someone who wants to monopolise the power of data, and so making this call now to take a step away from that, to give it back to the individual, that\u2019s a big deal. It\u2019s a very important thing, because it recognises that problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I don\u2019t expect everything in this will be absolutely un-revisable. I hope that we will revise it, we will look at it, and we will make sure that we aren\u2019t just going for the banks and the telecoms and the obvious areas but we\u2019re looking at this bill and its application beyond that, and we keep on adding to those regulations, not because it\u2019s red tape. Often regulations are viewed or cast in that way. It\u2019s not red tape; it\u2019s the flexible detail that those regulations can have to make this work for average New Zealanders, to save them money, to make sure that they\u2019ve got the power in their hands over the information that they\u2019re generating. Those are really important to New Zealanders right now. If you\u2019re talking about cutting your power bill by $500, it would be nice if you could do that without taking a risk or taking less risk. That\u2019s the kind of thing that I think this starts the process of doing, and it\u2019s the kind of thing I\u2019m really proud to see the whole House behind tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank, again, my own select committee for looking at this piece of legislation. I was on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee at the time. I think there are concepts here like \u201Cderived data\u201D that were difficult. We had to get our heads around them. I\u2019d like to thank all the businesses that involved themselves actively in this, the Xeros that came along and told us how this would affect them and what more they could do for the New Zealand consumer if they were allowed a little bit of flexibility. I\u2019d like to thank everyone for trying to get the balance right here between freedom for those companies to grow and protection of the individuals involved, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6b7aab00eb643e3a4bcda8de8f260d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6b7aab00eb643e3a4bcda8de8f260d6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon\u2014oh, sorry. I call Dr Hamish Campbell\u2014a very honourable man. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc3074b4c8b740a0b76f44c859816997\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc3074b4c8b740a0b76f44c859816997\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, I was hoping for a promotion, Madam Speaker! It\u2019s a great honour to rise in this last debate spot in the third reading of the Customer and Product Data Bill. I think it\u2019s great that every party in the House is supporting this bill. It\u2019s a great step forward to empowering individuals and fostering innovation in our economy. It\u2019s not just about individual empowerment; it\u2019s about unlocking the potential for innovation, so therefore I am very happy to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002205a36a7dec844261bf752847b47c1b4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205a36a7dec844261bf752847b47c1b4d\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, and it would appear that I might be the last speaker on this bill, rather than the previous member for Ilam there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256544c325c054274bd0e7896e4bd398d\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s the last last.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfa4499ff2ed43909a5e0fdbb79204e1\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the last laugh, perhaps\u2014we shall see. So it is with great excitement\u2014as the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs and my colleague Arena Williams and some other colleagues have mentioned their excitement as well\u2014that we are speaking on the Customer and Product Data Bill. Of course, talking about the member for Ilam, I should acknowledge that I\u2019m the member for Dunedin, and the previous member for Dunedin was the Hon Dr David Clark. He did a lot of work on the earlier versions of this bill, and I know that it is something that he was very excited about, as well, and about consumer rights. That is the issue that we\u2019ve heard about on this bill from my colleagues, who have been speaking about how it is not as focused as it could be on consumer rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EHowever, I also want to acknowledge, then, the work of the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, and we\u2019ve also heard about how Arena Williams then took it up in this Parliament as a member\u2019s bill. It\u2019s wonderful that the Hon Andrew Bayly then picked it up, with some differences that we\u2019ve heard about, and then we\u2019ve seen the Hon Scott Simpson bringing it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI do want to pause for a minute to note that we heard from Greg Fleming, and in his speech earlier, he mentioned that it\u2019s good to have such robust lawmaking processes in New Zealand, where there\u2019s a good committee process. I was in the House briefly and was watching some of the committee stage on this bill and I do want to acknowledge the Hon Scott Simpson for answering a good number of questions whilst he was in the chair in the committee of the whole House\u2014not in the Chair. He wasn\u2019t in the Chair; someone else was in the Chair\u2014but it was whilst he was sitting in the House as the Minister in charge of the bill. It is very good to see Ministers answering those questions, but, unfortunately, that is not what we always see in the committee process. So I will acknowledge him there, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, this bill is interesting because, of course, it relies a lot on secondary legislation. We\u2019ve heard\u2014and we see in the report back from the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee\u2014that the likely first two issues to go into force will be banking and electricity. How that works is interesting from the legislative perspective of how this bill is drafted, and we heard Helen White talk a little bit about that before as well. So we have the purpose section, and whilst it doesn\u2019t talk about consumers, it does talk about customers and society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut then the interesting part, and it seems like a useful purpose clause, but I won\u2019t read it out or anything\u2014it is clause\u00A03. But the interesting structural part of the legislation is found at clause\u00A04, which is the overview, and the people watching won\u2019t be able to see if I hold up the bill exactly how that works. But I\u2019m going to try a little bit anyway, because why it is interesting is that it tries to set out for people who are reading the legislation how it works, almost like a flow chart. So it\u2019s got the words \u201CIf\u201D a person has these different circumstances, \u201CThen\u201D something happens, and \u201CHowever\u201D, where there are certain provisions that apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI think that\u2019s a really interesting legislative tool, and I commend the Parliamentary Counsel Office for doing the work on that, because it is quite a dense piece of legislation. I\u2019m somebody who enjoys reading legislation, but when you come to this it does have a lot of terms. We heard Helen White talk before about derived data, and about how it took the select committee some time to get to terms with thinking about data in that way. So this overview is helpful when you come to the bill\u2014which will soon be an Act\u2014and I\u2019m just acknowledging that the regulations, or the secondary legislation, is so important as to how this whole framework works. So, again, like our earlier Labour Party speakers, we really ask the Minister, when making those regulations and looking at the various settings, that the consumer be at the forefront of his mind when doing that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWith that, I say well done to the select committee, to the Ministers, and to everyone who has been involved in progressing this bill. There\u2019s still some more work that we can do for consumers, but this is very good and I commend it to the House, as the last speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1645615d772410699ebe62418def12a\u0022\u003EArms (Shooting Clubs, Shooting Ranges, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022838089ab3f1846ee81bfe1876c16ee8c\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00223bd88a0f21c54de2a7b40df2b6f5bbb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bd88a0f21c54de2a7b40df2b6f5bbb1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Arms (Shooting Clubs, Shooting Ranges, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2bd9be1d2254f3596535eecd2eff0ff\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the parliamentary website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfab947b711c427d99c9c8592c1f9842\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move, That the Arms (Shooting Clubs, Shooting Ranges, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI am pleased to bring this bill to its third reading, therein completing the second phase of our work programme to reform New Zealand\u2019s firearm laws. Shooting clubs and shooting ranges throughout the country play an important public safety role in New Zealand\u2019s firearms regime. They provide spaces where individuals can learn how to safely operate firearms in a controlled environment. Clubs and ranges are mostly run by volunteers who give up their time to ensure that clubs and ranges are well-maintained, safe venues\u2014a place where members of the firearms community can take their families and friends to practise, to compete, to learn, and to have legal and legitimate fun.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWithout these spaces, firearm users will not have safe places to perform shooting activities, to train for international gold medals, or, most importantly, a safe place to sight in their rifles before they go hunting. Without these clubs and ranges, we will be creating risks that people will engage in these behaviours in areas that could put the public at risk, like down at your local riverbank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ELegislative changes introduced in 2020 placed a heavy regulatory burden on these volunteers. Some of these changes went beyond what is necessary to ensure public safety. I\u2019ve heard from club members and range operators that this regulatory burden is unnecessary and repetitive, it does not contribute to public safety, and it may force more to consider closure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThis bill simplifies the regulatory requirements for clubs and their ranges to reduce the unnecessary burden on the mostly volunteer operators, all while maintaining safety requirements and helping these places to stay open, which is, ultimately, in the interest of the public because it is an excellent public safety initiative. This bill represents a shift to a more collaborative approach\u2014to work with the club and range operators\u2014to boost compliance, and to produce regulation that is fit for purpose while keeping members, range users, and the public safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll now cover the specifics of what the bill does. The bill splits regulation of clubs and ranges into two categories: pistol and non-pistol. This reflects the distinction between how pistols and non-pistols are already regulated in other parts of the Arms Act. For pistol ranges, the settings are largely the same, with one minor change to the timing of their annual reports. For non-pistol clubs and ranges, the existing approval and certification systems are replaced with a new system of enrolment. The new enrolment systems are designed to be a more streamlined system that makes sure the regulator has the necessary information to ensure public safety, while reducing unnecessary operating costs for clubs and time spent by operators on things that do not enhance public safety outcomes. I expect that this change will increase compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ENon-pistol clubs will continue to be incorporated if they sell firearms and/or ammunition. However, if a club only sells ammunition and that ammunition is used on the day of sale or is not taken off the club premises, then the incorporation requirement is waived. This change will ensure that ammunition sales are only recorded when necessary for public safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe bill enables the operation of temporary non-pistol ranges by removing the barrier of certification. Those persons with the appropriate experience will be able to establish a temporary range for two events per year, each event being for no more than four days. They must notify the regulator of that event.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ERegarding compliance, the bill specifies the time at which inspections are to occur. This will be when the shooting range\u2019s initial application is submitted, and every five years thereafter. This includes the inspection of clubs where they are connected to a range. This is a welcome change for many clubs and ranges throughout the country which are operated by volunteers. An inspection often means volunteers having to take time off occupational work to make themselves available for the inspection. This change provides them certainty as to when they will be inspected. Importantly, additional inspections can take place if there is a change in circumstance which impacts the safety of the range, such as weather events like Cyclone Gabrielle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe regulator will have suitable powers for monitoring and enforcement in relation to non-pistol ranges to ensure the safe operation of these ranges. This includes improvement notices, temporary suspensions, and cancellation of enrolment, if required. During an inspection, only hard-copy documents will be able to be removed from the premises. This will reduce the burden on volunteers, who often have limited funds and access. Finally, the bill will amend the Act to complete the transfer of the administrative function of the Act from police to the justice portfolio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI would like to reiterate why these changes are so important. There is a clear need for safe, modern firearm laws in New Zealand. We were told that the changes made in 2020 introduced a wide range of measures to ensure public safety. While some of these have been positive, others have gone beyond what is necessary, and officials have said that it is unknown how far these measures have increased public safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe majority of clubs and ranges in our country are run by volunteers. I\u2019ve heard that they have struggled to come to grips with the new requirements and they feel unfairly targeted. It is important that our regulatory regime strikes the right balance to regulate well, without being overcomplicated and burdensome on those regulated with no clear benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThis bill takes us towards a more balanced and collaborative approach. It recognises the important role that clubs and ranges play in our communities. Keeping clubs and ranges open ensures that firearms activity takes place in safe, well-regulated areas, where there are minimal safety risks involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI wish to take this opportunity to thank all of those who have worked on and contributed to this bill. I thank the Justice Committee for its comprehensive scrutiny of the bill and all of the submitters who took time to share their views. Finally, I wish to thank all those volunteer club and range committees from the multiple disciplines that they all cover. Their endless dedication to their disciplines, their members, and their communities is recognised here and I hope these changes go some way to helping their continued operation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe result of all this work is legislation that is a step in the right direction towards a better, modernised firearms regime, and I look forward to returning to the House later this year to introduce legislation rewriting the entire Arms Act. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022673a4203a0cd4c1f9fbe0276ca1956a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022673a4203a0cd4c1f9fbe0276ca1956a9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMembers, it is time for the dinner break, so the House is suspended until 7\u00A0p.m.\u2014please note that that\u2019s 7\u00A0p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.57\u00A0p.m. to 7\u00A0p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224ae283bf65ae49b693b3d3d91ecd9e91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ae283bf65ae49b693b3d3d91ecd9e91\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good evening, members. The House is resumed. When we left at the dinner break we were in the third reading of the Arms (Shooting Clubs, Shooting Ranges, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. We are at call No. 2, and it\u2019s a Labour Party call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8186df4e4c2429dabdc87269e1b96da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8186df4e4c2429dabdc87269e1b96da\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. We find ourselves here once again debating under urgency a process that suspends time in this Chamber but does not suspend scrutiny. We may not be measuring time in this House but the people of New Zealand are, and they are watching now. They are watching a Government that claims to be tough on crime but today takes its first deliberate steps towards weakening our firearms laws. People are watching tonight, from home, a Government that promised to keep our communities safe but now puts politics before public safety. They are watching a Government that with this bill has officially chosen to forget what happened on 15 March 2019.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis is a dark day for our Parliament, because today, through this legislation, the Government begins a slow and systematic dismantling of the very laws that were put in place to prevent another attack like the one that happened in Christchurch on 15 March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders know what happened on 15 March 2019. It was the darkest day in our modern history. Fifty-one innocent lives were lost in an act of terror. We know why it was possible\u2014because for decades, successive Governments failed to act on the warnings we were given. Warnings from experts, warnings from police, warnings from former judges even were ignored for years. Justice Thomas Thorp, as far back as 1997, told us our gun laws were weak, riddled with loopholes and vulnerable to exploitation, yet no action was taken. So on that day in 2019, the worst came to pass, and as a result this House took action. MPs across the political spectrum came together, and by 119 votes to one we voted to ban semi-automatic weapons, to tighten our licensing laws, and to establish stronger oversight mechanisms. We made a commitment not just to the victims in Christchurch and their families but to all New Zealanders that we would never allow such an attack to happen again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EYet just 71 months later, this Government has chosen to wind back those hard-won reforms. The arms amendment bill before us today is not simply a technical update to the law, as the Government would have you believe. It is a step backwards towards the dangerous, unregulated firearms environment that enabled March 15 to take place in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis bill weakens the oversight of shooting clubs and ranges, precisely the place where the Christchurch terrorist was able to train. The royal commission of inquiry into the attack found that he was able to practise rapid-fire shooting techniques on an unregulated range with no scrutiny, no accountability, and no intervention. We fixed that. We introduced laws to regulate shooting clubs and ranges to ensure that those using them were monitored properly, and to ensure that those clubs and ranges were able to prevent extremists from accessing the training grounds that they seek. And now this Government wants to undo that work. They are handing control of shooting ranges back to the very groups that failed to ensure safety in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe Government says this is about cutting red tape and being practical. But this is not about practicality; it is about ideology. It is about appeasing those who believe that firearms\u2019 ownership is a right, not a privilege, and it\u2019s about a Government that is willing to trade public safety for political convenience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe do not have to look far to see the hypocrisy of those sitting opposite us today, because the very same National MPs who are now weakening our firearms laws stood in this Chamber and supported them. Let us remind them of their own words. The Leader of the House, Chris Bishop, was overseeing this shameful reversal of the legislation today. Six years ago, he said, \u201CI want to, on behalf of the party, acknowledge the Prime Minister for her remarks in opening this third reading debate, and also acknowledge her leadership in the hours and days and weeks following the shooting. I have received many comments in the last few weeks around your leadership, Prime Minister, and I think all of New Zealand has been impressed by your steadfastness at a time of great trial for our country.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s not forget the contribution of New Zealand First in 2019, either. Here is Mark Patterson, \u201CWe stand behind our Prime Minister, and I would like to acknowledge her and the leadership she has shown. It has been comforting for us all. New Zealand First, right from the get-go had absolutely no trouble falling in behind what was, in one word, leadership. In this time of national crisis, our own leader the Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2019 initial reaction was that at 1.30\u00A0p.m. on 15 March our world changed forever and so will our gun laws.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI even found a quote from the current Minister of Police, from six years ago, which was lucky because he hasn\u2019t uttered one single word in the debate on the legislation before us today in this House. There is silence from the Minister of Police when briefing after briefing through the Official Information Act reveals that the Police and the Police Association, representing front-line officers, have been urging him to intervene. [Interruption] It\u2019s true from what front-line cops say. Mark Mitchell will turn up in a heartbeat if there\u2019s a photo op with a blue uniform somewhere but he will run a mile if he\u2019s actually doing any hard work to back them. Here\u2019s what he said back in 2019, \u201CCan I acknowledge the Prime Minister first of all. I was very grateful of the fact that she shared with us some insights around how it crystallised in her mind, the leadership that was required, and then, of course, the Parliament coming together to bring this bill to the House to make the changes that we needed.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E Here is another, from former Minister of Police, Judith Collins, \u201CI\u2019m so proud of us. This is one of the most important pieces of legislation that we will pass during Parliament because it is not only about keeping people safe, but it\u2019s about putting a marker in the sand of our New Zealand culture.\u201D That was a mark in the sand for the National Party and it\u2019s obviously been washed away very conveniently when a political deal had to be done to form a Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe weakening of our gun laws that is happening today is the price of the political deal done with the ACT Party. But what has changed? Has the threat of extremism disappeared? Have our police stopped warning us about the risks of firearms in our community? Have the lessons of 15 March suddenly become irrelevant? No. The only thing that has changed is this Government\u2019s priorities. The truth is this is not about what is best for New Zealand. This is the price of a political deal with ACT. This is the cost of appeasing a minority ideology that places gun ownership ahead of public safety. And for that, the National Party is willing to betray its own past positions, its own past commitments, and the very principles it claimed to stand for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe weakening of firearm laws is not the only thing contained within this bill. What is buried deep within this bill under \u201Cother matters\u201D is something deeply concerning. It\u2019s a transfer of power from the Minister of Police to the Associate Minister of Justice, Nicole McKee, and it takes control away from police and into her hands. And that is the framework for the Firearms Safety Authority being taken out of Police. It is a real concern that that is being done without even the review of the Firearms Safety Authority even being made public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ELet me talk in conclusion on this bill. Labour\u2019s commitment in this area will be clear. We will not stand for this. We will not allow the lessons of 15 March to be simply erased. We will not allow New Zealand to return to the weak, ineffective firearms laws of the past, and we will not stand by as this Government prioritises politics over human lives. So let me make this commitment today, here in this House. We will overturn these changes. We will restore the protections that are being dismantled in this House today because we stand with the police, we stand with the communities who have suffered from gun violence, and we stand with the people of New Zealand who deserve a Government that values their safety over political expediency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis bill is a betrayal of the progress we made as a nation after 15 March. It is a betrayal of the promises that were made to the victims, to their families, and to the people of New Zealand. And it is a betrayal of our history that we will never forget. We oppose this bill. We will fight these changes, and we will make sure that when the time comes, this dangerous, reckless legislation is repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6001118bac74f12bb5c1f898ef5dcbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6001118bac74f12bb5c1f898ef5dcbe\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the next speaker, I did hear a few comments in the House during that speech about reading the speech. There were a lot of quotes in that speech, and I wouldn\u2019t expect anyone to be not reading quotes at the risk of getting them wrong. So there\u2019s a good level of acceptability around quotes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u002234529284a86949e8b118c2b4f59fede5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234529284a86949e8b118c2b4f59fede5\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m in alignment with my colleague from Labour, in that this piece of legislation is not a minor thing. It\u2019s not minor stuff. What we\u2019re talking about is a relaxation of gun safety. As a gun owner, as a firearms owner, and as someone who hunts, I can\u2019t see the sense in relaxing the rules we have, particularly when we have had the crises that we have had\u201415 March and Aramoana. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThis bill is, essentially, a rushed bit of legislation. It is something that we don\u2019t need. And we\u2019ve seen switching from the Minister of Police to the Associate Minister of Justice with no support\u2014no support\u2014from the wider communities of interest and no consideration about how people feel\u2014how this makes our vulnerable communities feel after the massacre of 15 March. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ENow, some people might say it\u2019s only making things a little bit simpler. The Arms Amendment Act 1992 made some changes to gun laws in response to the Aramoana tragedy, but it did not include a ban on military-style semi-automatics, despite one being proposed by the then Opposition, Labour. And we know what happened: the Thorp recommendations were not implemented. We know what happened on 15 March. After that point, after that moment\u2014as has been pointed out\u2014Parliament did come together and did put in place mechanisms to safeguard our communities. They were thoughtful. They were done in response to extreme trauma. What we have got in response is a shockingly slack, rushed, messy process to meet political contingency, because a soap salesman wants to be Prime Minister. This is absolutely shocking in a civil society where we value democracy\u2014that we\u2019ve sold out simply for political contingency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe in the Greens do not accept that amending Part 6 of the Arms Act 1983 will meet any legitimate need of any firearm owners or provide greater safety and reassurance to the general public. There is no sense to stopping the police from doing checks on gun ranges except every five years. Why would we want to limit the checking of gun ranges? Who is that going to benefit? I would like the members opposite to consider who that will benefit. Anyone who is a legitimate gun owner should not be afraid of the police checking a gun range, should not be fearful of having to present their firearms licence, and should not be worried that somebody will be selling ammunition when they shouldn\u2019t be, because we all want to live in a safe society. We all want to live in a society where we can trust our neighbours\u2014not like Aramoana and not like the situation that we had on 15 March. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve certainly read here that the bill amends the Act so that non-pistol shooting ranges may be inspected when the range is first applying for enrolment, then subsequently at 5-yearly intervals. As I\u2019ve said, this just seems ridiculous. It might be a small thing, but it is\u2014as my colleague said\u2014a slow, inexorable dismantling of hard-won safety measures. This is what we\u2019re facing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI just don\u2019t understand how anyone who purports to support our communities, our most vulnerable, can be comfortable with this\u2014can do this with a clear conscience. Is this what it means to be in Government\u2014that the Government will hold their nose and do the most odious things, simply to be in power? As we\u2019ve seen, this legislation is not thoughtful, it\u2019s not considered, it has not gone out to the wider public, it has not considered the broad variety of views, and it is narrow, rushed, and quite frankly\u2014I don\u2019t think I can use that term, but it is a very poor process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThis bill is, essentially, retrospective legislation to try to fix something that was not wanted by one party in the coalition Government. As a consequence, it bears all the hallmarks of that party, but it is owned by the whole Government. This is something that we will all remember. This is something that we will ensure the public knows as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EAs a firearms owner and as a hunter, I talk with our firearms community and I talk with other hunters. Nobody wants there to be nonsensical firearm legislation. Nobody wants rushed, poorly thought-out legislation either. This is what this is\u2014this is exactly what this is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ELiberalising gun ranges is about rolling back necessary controls on firearms. Rolling back safety measures makes our communities less safe. This is very simple stuff. This is exactly why the Green Party wouldn\u2019t come near this bill with any kind of support. We certainly support a rewrite of the Arms Act, but we support doing this in a way that involves our wider community. This piecemeal approach is breaking down all the safeguards that we have had in place and that we have agreed through time across the House. This is why it is so difficult to stomach\u2014because I know, in my heart of hearts, that through previous Governments we have been able to work together. This feels like showing us the finger again and again and again. The Government knows that this is not palatable, this is not sensible, this is not good for our communities, and this is not addressing the trauma of our most vulnerable communities, and still the Government seeks to proceed to do something that they know is deeply unpopular and has no merit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EIt is a sad day. It is a sad day to be speaking on the third reading of the Arms (Shooting Clubs, Shooting Ranges, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I would like to work with the Government on ensuring that we have safety in our communities and ensuring that legitimate firearm use is supported. Actually, I\u2019d quite like to be out chasing deer in the roar. But we\u2019re not; we\u2019re here, and we\u2019re debating this very poor bill, and that\u2019s something that I don\u2019t want us to be doing again and again and again. I would like there to be much more listening and much more dialogue, and more consideration of the real concerns that we have on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThis is a dog\u2019s breakfast of a bill. We have had plenty of time to debate, but we have not had any listening or dialogue with the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022 data-id=\u00225dc777e1a77649f0ba50095fe400fbc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225dc777e1a77649f0ba50095fe400fbc5\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E This not entirely a sad day; I understand this is a birthday. R\u0101 wh\u0101nau ki a koe. Although I have to say, technically it\u2019s not, because while we\u2019re in urgency, while you\u2019re in this Chamber, you are actually ageless. R\u0101 wh\u0101nau ki a koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f10d19bc2e94605bbdac86ae9630f4b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you to the member. I\u2019ll excuse you on this one occasion for bringing me into the debate. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cade59aa65304ae4a9421f0203bf77d3\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING\u003C/span\u003E: It is my honour to rise on the third reading of this bill. It has been well canvassed. It has been well debated. There are clearly very different positions on this bill. On this side of the House, we are happy with the balance that is struck here, and so I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00228068e0b7f41940bab9cdc6a1e7397b51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228068e0b7f41940bab9cdc6a1e7397b51\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in support of the Arms (Shooting Clubs, Shooting Ranges, and Other Matters) Amendments Bill, on behalf of the New Zealand First Party. I would like to clarify a few points. It is the duty of this House to consider legislation and to review its effectiveness. It is the duty of this House to take time to look at laws that were passed and see if they are still relevant. To quote members who supported a piece of legislation when they responded to a horrific incident that brought the whole country to its knees, where we all stopped and responded to the fact that this was something we needed to deal with quickly, and, therefore, that legislation was passed exactly as was criticised across the House\u2014in rush, without consultation, without thinking about what the implications were going to be. Therefore, we are now in a position of having the time\u2014the six years since this horrific event occurred\u2014to consider if this legislation is still appropriate, if it is still effective, if it is still right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EIn the midst of this firearms legislation that you believe solved all the problems, we have had escalating crime that we have never seen before in this country. We have had violent crime at an unprecedented level. Therefore, it is perfectly legitimate to sit back and look at where our responses should sit, where we have the duty to ensure that law-abiding citizens can be allowed to do lawful activity without the restrictions and inhibitions that bad legislation puts in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EIn response to the members across the House, we do care. That is why we were passing legislation that helps reduce violent crime. We have seen violent crime come down because we are the Government that cares, because we actually understand what the front line needs, we actually understand what crime means, and we actually understand what victims want, and we don\u2019t advocate for the fact that the Police is a terrible organisation and we don\u2019t promote the fact that prisons are full of hungry people. We actually understand what law and order means in this country, and, therefore, we have approached a piece of legislation that is very simple. It\u2019s very clear that we are reviewing a rushed piece of legislation and we are making changes to ensure that lawful activity can continue. That is why this party will support the legislation and we commend it to the House. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228637bf52be7f4b5d84262fc61f341afc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228637bf52be7f4b5d84262fc61f341afc\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022f86f8d7f8a60471ba52761a8cec219cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f86f8d7f8a60471ba52761a8cec219cf\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. In my view\u2014in our view, it is more than a sad and bad day. It\u2019s utter madness. It\u2019s deeply disappointing madness made legal, is what I want to share. When this bill is removing safety regulations, surely you can see the madness in that whole idea. Why would you make something less safe? Why would anyone in their right mind do that? It\u2019s mind-boggling, dumping the need for non-pistol shooting ranges to be certified and\u2014adding insult to injury\u2014scrapping all penalties. As you get into the detail, it\u2019s definitely where the devil resides and clearly the devil on the other side of the House will land a point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019re measuring this against our own tikanga and our own tools, we talk about mana motuhake. Kore he motuhake i roto i t\u0113nei whakaaro. [There is no self-determination in this idea.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ENothing enhances, nothing elevates, and nothing honours the life of every precious individual. Why on earth would we give the rule, and the regulation, and the power to a former gun lobbyist? Well, I don\u2019t know how \u201Cformer\u201D former that is, but it seems very current, just saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022521b4d0ce54a448c926973f71adad63b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think we should just broaden it out to the Government. It is a Government bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229326b57103fc40559613ad7bdc2a38de\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: I will\u2014yes. All right. When it reflects clearly the loosening of the regulations on firearms\u2014again, loosening regulations on firearms\u2014surely, for anyone in their right mind, if you were looking up and listening, that cannot be smart thinking, and it astounds me and disappoints me deeply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThen I want to bring us home. On 4 March this year, if you read the Northern Advocate you would see the opening \u201CWhang\u0101rei Fatal Shooting\u201D and then you\u2019d see the sad and terrible shooting of a woman on Beach Road in Whang\u0101rei, and then there was another piece to that. But just \u201Cfatal shooting\u201D, that heading, it shocked us all in our small community in Whang\u0101rei, as it should across our whole motu. But clearly people aren\u2019t reading enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EI want to take us back again; I\u2019m going to take you back to Tai Tokerau. In July 2017, a mum and her daughter go to work\u2014this is the heading in the New Zealand Herald: \u201CMother and daughter die as repair visit turns to tragedy.\u201D The tenant in the house comes out\u2014disgusting, horrible\u2014and both the mother and the daughter die. They were shot by this man. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThese are important points because it\u2019s the same reality that was shared when we\u2019re talking about the events of 15 March. Our memories are clearly very, very short that you will only remember\u2014and you\u2019re selective in what you recall, because why would you want to even think about that? You might talk about it on the other side of the House, but does it resonate today? It might have back then, but where is the memory now? Where is that discussion now? Where is the serious debate in this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWe too want to work with whoever\u2014the other side of the House, ideally\u2014to have you understand what works. This makes it much, much more detrimental and difficult for our vulnerable families. In fact, it makes it blinking detrimental for any blinking family\u2014for all families, for all mokopuna, particularly our mokopuna and families that live in in vulnerable communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s nuts. This is nuts. It\u2019s madness. It makes no real sense in any way, in any social justice\u2014even like giving the guys a gun to go out and have a little bit of a play and a hoot. I was just listening to my Greens colleague here and he\u2019s a hunter, he knows what it takes, and he\u2019s saying, \u201CCut it out.\u201D My army mates are going, \u201CThis is utter madness, Meno. Stop this Minister, and stop this thinking, and stop this person.\u201D I wish I could. If I could, I\u2019d just tear this bill up too. Kia ora, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed654185b7534fe898d8366cf9b3f080\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed654185b7534fe898d8366cf9b3f080\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. We have heard, from this side of the House, the grave concern that we have for this bill\u2014not simply the repercussions of this bill but the process of how this bill came about in the first place. This bill is a solution without a problem; there was nothing that suggests that this is needed other than the prioritising of a small lobbyist pro-gun group instead of public safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn the regulatory impact statement, literally every single option that has been proposed said that it would have a negative impact on promoting public safety. So there is no positive aspect to public safety with this bill. What\u2019s even more concerning is that because of the narrow scope of this bill, in the regulatory impact statement itself it says that for this bill, the Minister shared insights with officials in order to identify her key areas of concern. Combined with the time restraint, we have a limited scope of options consulted on with stakeholders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThis is literally one person\u2019s hot take of a legislation. We hear from the Government parties that, yes, we are here about bills and we are here about legislation and we are here about the New Zealand public. Words have meaning. We do not and we should not be introducing legislation based on one person\u2019s hot takes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIf you\u2019re looking at the list of stakeholders that is being introduced into the regulatory impact statement, literally most of them are gun groups: let\u2019s say, the Arms Advisory Group, the Arms Engagement Group, the Firearms Community Advisory Forum. Only one of them was the Muslim Reference Group, because they have to include them. Whether their feedback was taken on board, and I can hazard a guess, it\u2019s probably going to be drowned out by all of the other voices and all of the other stakeholders that were consulted as a part of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo 15 March\u2014and we just had the six-year commemoration of that a few weeks ago\u2014was one of the worst tragedies in Aotearoa. It was something that the Muslim community had told the Government over and over and over again of the risk to their lives, of the risk to their communities, and we did not hear them at that moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s Ramadan right now. We have people here in this very House, currently, who are celebrating iftar. Could anyone from the Government party dare show their face to that group of people and look at them in their eyes, saying, \u201CThis bill that we\u2019re debating in the third reading right now is for you, it\u2019s for your benefit.\u201D? Can we, hand on heart, tell that to all of the people currently celebrating iftar?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThis is not something we need. This is not something that is going to be beneficial. This is going to hurt more people within our communities. This is going to put lives in danger. You are going to see parents who will never make it home to see their children. You\u2019re going to see children who are never going to make it home to see their parents. Do we really want to go down the same track that we see in other countries like the US, where all they manage to say whenever there\u2019s a mass shooting of any sort is, \u201CThoughts and prayers\u201D? Is that something that we should be identifying with and working with and looking forward to and seeing ourselves being reflected in what is happening overseas? We should not be a part of that. We should hold on to our values and our people and the best way to protect them. That is what this House should be doing when we are looking at this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOther than that, we have heard from multiple people and organisations and committees, even the police themselves, who said that this is not going to be good, that there are going to be concerns about this. So this is not a bill that the Green Party will support under any circumstance, and we are appalled at how this bill was introduced and the repercussions that this bill will create.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f806c9f28335444a9174675ebf8bf059\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f806c9f28335444a9174675ebf8bf059\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This bill\u2019s part of our plan to reform the 40-year-old Arms Act. It modernises the Act. Its purpose is public safety and best regulatory practice, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u0022256014d9aa2c4499956d65768622cfd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022256014d9aa2c4499956d65768622cfd2\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity to stand and take a call on the Arms (Shooting Clubs, Shooting Ranges, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I stand to oppose this bill\u2014and I stand to oppose this bill strongly. Very recently, earlier this month, it was the six-year anniversary since the tragic events of 2019, which compelled this Government to step up and take responsibility for the tragic and hideous crimes that occurred in Christchurch. And earlier this month, our Prime Minister\u2014or the Prime Minister, as I prefer\u2014and members of this Government went to Christchurch for that anniversary and stood with the families of those victims, to support them in commemorating that tragic day. At the same time, in the same month, only a few days later, we are here under urgency to undo one of the very laws that was put in place to make sure that tragedy could never happen again. As someone who was in Christchurch the day of that tragedy, you can never forget what the feeling was like in that city on the day and immediately afterwards. This bill sets out to undo the immediate response by this Government and, as we\u2019ve heard from earlier speakers, a response that was acknowledged and supported by other leaders in this House and by other members in this House, with the exception of one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EAn earlier speech went through very accurate and precise quotes that detailed not just the support but the reasons for it. Ultimately, we should be here in this House to make communities safer, but that\u2019s not what this bill does. This bill does exactly the opposite of that. Now, there\u2019s been a range of speeches in the House in this third reading of the bill. There\u2019s been members calling out. There\u2019s been members who\u2019ve chosen to use their call for birthday shout-outs. And there\u2019s been claims from a member that crime is spiralling out of control. At the same time as crime is allegedly spiralling out of control, the suggested solution is to enable access to firearms and to practising the use of firearms. In a nutshell, the statement is: take away the patches, but don\u2019t take away the guns. Doesn\u2019t seem like much of a solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EIf we are here to make communities safer, this bill does exactly the opposite of that. It actually makes us less safe; it makes our communities less safe, and it creates a very real sense of danger and a sense of a lack of safety for some of our most vulnerable communities. There are multiple issues with this bill other than the principle of it, but the idea of self-regulation or no regulation of shooting clubs and shooting ranges\u2014and there are multiple loopholes that endanger communities and that put at risk law-abiding gun users. We\u2019ve heard from members in the House tonight who\u2019ve spoken against this bill but have been very clear to point out that they are gun owners, gun users, and that they are not comfortable with the changes and the shift that this bill puts in place. There are not clear enough provisions in this bill to stop a club or a range opening somewhere near you some time soon. These are definitely not the actions of a responsible Government that cares about keeping people and communities safe. These are instead, under urgency, a rushed shift backwards to reinstate the very environment that allowed such a tragedy to happen in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe process throughout the journey of this bill has been flawed. Rushed consultation\u2014it did not enable communities to be involved in this bill. It was skewed, through its consultation, towards firearm users\u201491\u00A0percent of submitters. The panel stated that the process that this bill followed through select committee only partially met the criteria. So it\u2019s a terrible, terrible rushed process. The Police Association spoke on this bill\u2014and represents over 98\u00A0percent of sworn officers\u2014and they described this bill as being politics over safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EIf we are here to make communities safer, and surely that\u2019s what we should be here to do\u2014amongst other things, but we shouldn\u2019t be here to increase risk, to make communities feel less safe, to dial back the very laws that were strengthened and put in place to make sure tragedies couldn\u2019t be repeated. So in closing my speech tonight, I want to echo the words of the Hon Ginny Andersen, who spoke at the beginning of this third reading, who took us through and reiterated the quotes from members in this House when the original bill was passed. She said not only do we oppose this bill but we will repeal it and put back in place the very protections that our communities need and that they deserve. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u002204a9a20077344cd2bfbcc26aa57e185f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204a9a20077344cd2bfbcc26aa57e185f\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019re in the third reading of the Arms (Shooting Clubs, Shooting Ranges, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I find it quite absurd the notion that the National Party, when one of our 10 values is national and personal security, would be comfortable with allowing a bill to become law that is apparently as loose as the other side of the House is saying. We went through a robust process in select committee. If the members of the Justice Committee didn\u2019t show up for that robust process, that\u2019s their issue. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002266403850ac0e4b1f84d658371aa41e4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266403850ac0e4b1f84d658371aa41e4c\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is with absolutely no pleasure at all that I take a call on this bill, and I\u2019m actually quite shocked at the fact that we\u2019re having this debate and the fact that I know there are people who are sitting opposite me in this Chamber right now who in their hearts do not believe that this is the right move for New Zealand, that do not think that the legislative change that our Parliament should be prioritising is to get more guns in more hands more easily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe priorities for New Zealanders are the fact that recently they\u2019ve had increases in the cost of living, a lot of people are losing their jobs, they\u2019re concerned about the health system, and they want to have a secure future. It is not the priorities that seem to be upheld by this current Government. It is not the deregulation of gun control; it is not the repeal of the Plain Language Act. It\u2019s simply getting quite farcical to be turning up to this House and seeing the types of laws that this Government is putting forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThis couldn\u2019t be a more serious matter. We will all remember, those of us\u2014and we\u2019ve had many Christchurch colleagues speaking tonight and will have others to come and to speak on this debate, but I think those of us, no matter where we were in New Zealand, remember 15 March, remember the horror of that day, remember how terrible it felt to lose 50 New Zealanders in that way, remember the shame of the fact that there is something that we could\u2019ve done to do with regulation and the way that people access guns, and, too, the pride that we felt collectively as a country in the fact that this House stood up and voted for a change that would mean that that would never happen again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ETo be standing here looking at this bill only six years later fills me with shame. It fills me with shame, and I will use my vote that I have in this House to vote against it. It should fill those of you who are voting for it with shame, because this will lead to more violence. It will lead to more situations where there could be mass killings in this country. Whatever you say about the fact that this is looking at the regulatory\u2014not you, Madam Speaker. Whatever one is to say about the purpose of this bill, you simply have to look at the introduction of this bill to see what it actually does. Simplifying the regulatory requirements\u2014well, what does that mean? It means fewer regulatory requirements. It means it\u2019s easier to get access to guns. It says different levels of regulation between pistol and non-pistol shooting clubs\u2014different levels of regulation. There should be regulation when it comes to firearms. Owning a firearm is a privilege and should only be used with the maximum amount of safety, and I think most New Zealanders would agree with that. So it is shocking to be standing here and seeing this law being passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWhen I was preparing for this speech, I was looking at the regulatory impact statement, looking for a reason why this could possibly be coming through our House, and I could not find it. Then, looking at the people who would be supporting it\u2014the Police, the Police Association, some of whom members of this House have had a long history with. The Police Association opposes this bill. They say it will make matters worse, and I say that we on this side of the House believe the Police. We know that they are experienced in making sure that New Zealanders are kept safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ETo see this go through under urgency, to see people I respect, colleagues on that side of the House\u2014we may have different views, but, fundamentally, I believed they were good people\u2014stand up and take short calls, not even justifying to our Muslim community, New Zealanders who saw so much pride in the fact that our Parliament was able to come together against gun violence, against that tragedy, to even justify to New Zealanders why you are doing this. It\u2019s shameful, and I encourage those of you who truly believe that to think it\u2019s not too late to change your mind and to vote against this terrible bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u00222a1cfdecf775430c9329e5f133b4b96b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a1cfdecf775430c9329e5f133b4b96b\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed380c7cdc8648d7994919841c122369\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed380c7cdc8648d7994919841c122369\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I know there was a groan when Paulo Garcia resumed his seat, but don\u2019t be too hard on him: he\u2019s got nothing to say. There\u2019s a reason he\u2019s got nothing to say, because there is nothing good to say about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259243d6d5c7e4f0cbaa48dc2ad2e8ed9\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Stop being a bully, man!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225aaa30ca6fb45d8b2a1f01320282552\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: And you, too, Rima Nakhle. You stood up to talk here in this House on this bill, and you had nothing to say, because this bill is indefensible. I can accept your shame. I can understand why you so hastily resumed your seat and hung your head, because you should.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225085ace4c0b44d61982687edefcfaaa6\u0022\u003EHon Simon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: School-yard bully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfc0140411944bcf94a2d5b6a0825539\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you take a call, Minister Watts, because I will yield my time to you if you will use it usefully to defend your party\u2019s position. Will you explain your party\u2019s position? Because I will yield. You will not. You will not, because you haven\u2019t got the fortitude to stand up and defend your party\u2019s position. Don\u2019t pretend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EYou know what? This is the policy document underpinning this bill. It is the coalition agreement. This is how much policy work went on. This is how the National Party sold its members down the river\u2014one line in this document which says the price of Christopher Luxon becoming Prime Minister is to immediately begin the repeal and replacement of Part 6 of the Arms Act relating to clubs and ranges. That is the price of power. And here\u2019s the true irony: not only is it only 8\u00A0percent of this Parliament, which is the ACT Party, which made that demand, but it\u2019s only a fraction of their support. It is a fragment of New Zealand, a splinter of New Zealand, that has made this demand, which is wagging the National Party dog. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis bill is flawed in so many ways. The process alone is shocking. The idea that the evidence upon which this bill is based is, and I quote, \u201Cthe Minister\u2019s lived experience\u201D is shocking. You are liberalising gun laws, you are allowing the freer use of firearms, and the evidence base of it is the Minister\u2019s lived experience\u2014her reckons, her memories. And if that\u2019s how you\u2019re going to run a country and if that\u2019s what you\u2019re going to do with firearms law reform, then woe betide us. And the consultation: was there a broad and deep consultation on this? Was the community asked what it thought? No. Gun ranges were asked what they thought. The wolf was asked what it would like to do with the hen house, and that\u2019s what we\u2019ve got here. No wonder the consultation suggested a liberalisation, because the very people who were being regulated were asked if they\u2019d like fewer rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut there\u2019s something more important going on here, and that is actually a struggle. The National Party appears to have changed sides because over on the far right, the shrinking of Government, the rolling-back of the State, and the leaving of citizens to do whatever they want is pretty much the playbook. But, on that side of the House, usually, we\u2019ve had responsible government and responsible regulation, and a balance has been struck. It might not be exactly where we would put it, but a balance has been struck between personal freedoms and responsibility and responsible government. Well, they\u2019ve just given up on that. They\u2019ve said, \u201CYou want to deregulate gun ranges? Go for it. You want to have rifle ranges where there are no rules, where the ranges make up their own rules? Go for it. We don\u2019t mind.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENo wonder the Police Association said this was a terrible idea. And we hear\u2014we have evidence\u2014that the Minister of Police has, in papers that he has seen, evidence of gang members using gun ranges for target practice to sharpen up their skills. Does that change their mind? \u201CNo, no, no, we\u2019ll still keep on this fateful road.\u201D It is absolutely unbelievable that, even in the face of that kind of evidence, they still say, \u201COh, no, we don\u2019t think the Police should have a right to inspect gun ranges once every five years.\u201D The idea that it is some kind of huge incursion on the liberty of a citizen for the police to pop down and check that the ammunition is stored securely, that the range is being run in a safe manner, and that the people who are attending there are people of good repute\u2014there\u2019s nothing wrong with that, but, no, straight out of the far right playbook, they say that is the State intruding on to the rights of private citizens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWell, the private citizens do not have a God-given or a constitutional right to shoot rifles. They have a privilege conferred by the law under the Arms Act if they meet the appropriate criteria. And one of those criteria should be that when they are using firearms on a gun range, a police officer can pop down and check that everything\u2019s all right. But, no. The idea that there\u2019s some distinction, some important distinction, between pistols and rifles is fatuous. In fact, sure, pistols are smaller and more easily concealed, but in terms of lethality, rifles are by far the more dangerous weapon. They have an incredible velocity and need just as much regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe fact of the matter is that what we\u2019ve got here is a failure of leadership. I don\u2019t know if the failure of leadership occurred in the coalition negotiations or if it occurred later down the road. But I look at the National Party members; the backbench is sitting there, and I can see that they\u2019re uncomfortable with this. And I can see that they\u2019ve been told, \u201CShut up. Don\u2019t say anything. Just say a couple of words and sit down.\u201D, because at least Casey Costello\u2014you know, to her credit\u2014stood up and said what she thought. She thought that we have a duty to allow law-abiding citizens to do lawful activities. Again, that\u2019s that entitlement argument. But at least she said it. Now, she\u2019s wrong because, yes, it\u2019s a lawful activity, but it\u2019s not an activity which you have a right to undertake\u2014to use a firearm. It\u2019s a privilege under which you should be subject to reasonable and proportionate rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAnd that\u2019s what we have. That\u2019s what the National Party in 2019 agreed to. Look where we have come. Look from a place where we understood and came together and together worked on a set of rules in a totally bipartisan way, with support across the House, except from the ACT Party. We now have the National Party doing a U-turn in their thirst for power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EYou know, as the Christchurch Central MP, I must pay homage to what went on there on 15 March and the fact that the tragedy that occurred to the Muslim community, which shook Christchurch and New Zealand to its core, was one which was facilitated because we had failed to do the right thing once. We were shown at Aramoana what was wrong, and John Banks, in fact, said that his greatest regret was not fixing up the law and prohibiting semi-automatic weapons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo we stood up, and we did what was right. We came together, and we agreed. And, in that contract, I believed that we had resolved that that was where the law would lie, that that was the agreement that we had made across the House, both in honour and in respect for those that had fallen. But that\u2019s not where we\u2019ve ended up. We\u2019ve ended up with a National Party that will do whatever is expedient at the time. And if that means giving a gun lobbyist the pen over gun legislation, that\u2019s what you\u2019ll do. And so when you do go home tonight, think about that. And if a tragedy does occur\u2014and I pray that it won\u2019t\u2014think about that. And just think about what\u2019s coming because this gun lobbyist in charge of gun reform wants semi-automatic weapons back too. Will you do that? Will that be the next price of power? Think about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00221d43f501251e45e0bbc043aaa537df7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d43f501251e45e0bbc043aaa537df7a\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E This is a good bill. It\u2019s fit for purpose, it returns to practical common-sense regulations, it balances the needs of personal freedoms of law-abiding citizens versus the safety and regulations required. All three parties agreed in the direction of travel and campaigned on such changes at the general election. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002230741444f82d441593915520ad4fc10a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Arms (Shooting Clubs, Shooting Ranges, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001032\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022198b794916b34f38afdd8541c8eab48c\u0022\u003EDairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d63646663614de9b5f1d7b8e6ca9aa3\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdd5f3a659be40ab9862eec800360e1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdd5f3a659be40ab9862eec800360e1d\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e13b1383f554b918998f313875447c4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224381dbe7f1934642950871ce7323fbc5\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI am pleased to bring this bill back to the House today. As we indicated, as I said in the first reading, the dairy industry is the cornerstone of New Zealand\u2019s economy, and I want to thank all of our farmers for their hard work. It\u2019s expected to generate over $25\u00A0billion worth of export revenue this year alone, up 10\u00A0percent on last year, through the hard work and dedication of our dairy farmers. The changes being progressed in this bill will support the Government\u2019s goal of doubling the value of exports within 10 years and delivering economic growth for all of New Zealand to benefit every New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI want to briefly touch on some of the key features in the bill that we spoke about during first reading speeches. I\u2019ll then touch on two minor changes recommended by the Primary Production Committee, which we will be accepting and moving through this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe bill as introduced is intended to improve the current dairy export quota allocation system. The bill makes three significant changes to the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act 2001 (DIRA). Firstly, it changes the bases of quota allocation from bovine milk solids collected to export history. Secondly, it creates a regulation-making power to enable 10\u00A0percent of one or more quotas to be reserved for otherwise ineligible exporters and exporters eligible for lower volume allocation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAnd, finally, the bill provides quota access to non-bovine animal dairy exporters on the same basis as bovine dairy exports\u2014for example, for sheep milk or deer milk or goat milk. These changes will remove barriers to trade and support the Government\u2019s ambitious trade agenda. They\u2019ll help stimulate innovation and encourage value-add to New Zealand dairy products. Importantly, the changes will help maximise quota utilisation and the benefits of export quota for dairy industry and help drive better outcomes for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI want to thank the chair of the Primary Production Committee, Mark Cameron, and all committee members for their work in scrutinising this bill, and I recognise that the report was adopted by the committee unanimously, and I thank them for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI also note that the select committee received two written submissions, one from Fonterra and one from Open Country Dairy. The select committee also heard from Fonterra, who spoke to their submission. I want to acknowledge Fonterra and Open Country Dairy for taking the time to express their views on this bill to the committee and, therefore, to Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIn response to the Primary Production Committee\u2019s advice, I\u2019ve made two minor changes to the bill to ensure fairness, transparency, and certainty in dairy quota allocation. In respect of new transitional measures for the quota compliance programme (QCP) requirement, I have created a transitional measure for that quota compliance programme requirement. The QCP requirement provides that if a participant has not obtained a QCP for any of the three years prior to the year in which they were allocated quota, they will be declined quota allocation unless their reasons are of a reasonable satisfaction to the Minister. The transitional measure will mean that the QCP requirement does not apply to any of the 2023, 2024, or 2025 quota years. This change ensures that the current participants are not unfairly disadvantaged by choices they made under the current legislation before these changes have entered into force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAround specific tariff headings for designated markets to be notified in the Gazette, I\u2019ve amended the bill to require the tariff headings for each quota market administrated under the DIRA be included in the Gazette notice advising that quota applications are open. This change will make it easier for exporters to know what information they need to provide when applying for a quota.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI again express my appreciation to the committee for their recommended improvement, to the submitters for their valued feedback, and to officials for their hard work in bringing this bill through the process. The bill is now a robust piece of legislation that replaces what had become an outdated system for dairy quota allocation. This will support the success of our dairy sector and, ultimately, New Zealand\u2019s economic growth and prosperity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI also, again, want to thank the dairy farmers of New Zealand for their hard work, their contribution, along with other farmers, to making New Zealand great again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228a4644a39cb444a0b06332e94edd7dda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a4644a39cb444a0b06332e94edd7dda\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022664aafabe161497fa84ffc96db027ff1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022664aafabe161497fa84ffc96db027ff1\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call this evening on this bill. The Minister of Agriculture has just mentioned the Primary Production Committee reported back unanimously agreeing to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ECan I first acknowledge the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, who originally drove this piece of legislation, and then acknowledge the Minister, who has just taken his seat, for continuing to shepherd this piece of legislation through the House. I just want to also acknowledge my Primary Production Committee colleagues. I do believe\u2014and I\u2019m not biased, but I do believe\u2014that we are the best select committee. Actually, I think, Madam Speaker, you might agree with that too. I was listening earlier to a bill being discussed in the House\u2014the Customer and Product Data Bill\u2014and I heard one of the speakers talk about the collegiality across the House with that piece of legislation, and I have to say that whilst that was true and it was good to see, it\u2019s nothing as collegial as you might find in the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThis piece of legislation deals with dairy quota allocation, basically, and it fits in beautifully with the goal of the current Government\u2014and our country, in fact, and our farmers\u2014to double export values around the world. This piece of legislation, while it doesn\u2019t state it explicitly, will also help create jobs across the country, create fairness among the sector and our producers, and give certainty to the sector. New Zealand has always been a country of entrepreneurs and innovators, with our number eight wire\u2014I won\u2019t say \u201Cmentality\u201D, but innovativeness, I guess. I think that this piece of legislation, while it doesn\u2019t necessarily state these things explicitly, also goes to support all of those things that we in New Zealand are so well known for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThis bill was open for submissions from 18 October to 17 November last year, and the committee received two submissions\u2014one that a submitter spoke to orally. It was quite interesting that we only had two submissions. I thought that we might have had some more interest, given that this is such an interesting topic, and I know my colleague Mark Cameron will have lots to say about this subject, considering he is a passionate dairy farmer\u2014I\u2019m looking forward to his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThis piece of legislation simply amends the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act 2001, or the DIRA, as we refer to it in this bill and probably throughout other members\u2019 contributions this evening. The background to this piece of legislation\u2014there may be people out there who are glued to their televisions this evening listening to Parliament TV and unsure what this actually means. Our dairy export quotas are negotiated, often as part of international free trade\u2014not free trade necessarily; international trade agreements. And some of these are agreed as part of bilateral free-trade agreements. The information that we\u2019ve received in our select committee with regard to this is that it\u2019s been a little bit\u2014I would argue\u2014complicated for someone who may be on the outside looking in, trying to understand how quotas have been allocated in the past. Prior to this piece of legislation being introduced to the House, it was allocated on the proportion, basically, of the milk collected by participants directly from dairy farmers, etc., across New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThings have also changed in the last few years, because the prior piece of legislation, the Act itself, pertained only to dairy. We know that bovine dairy is not the only product now that we find that we are exporting across the country. When I talked about this piece of legislation creating jobs and creating fairness, I was referring to the fact that there have been a number of changes in the sector itself. We\u2019re not just milking dairy cows. We now have a range of different products that are being made\u2014for example, deer milk, goat milk, cheese, and other types of products that have not been so common in the past, and we are starting to see more of those types of businesses come to the fore. There are lots of innovators across the country. Lewis Road Creamery is one that I can think of also.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EBecause of the fact that the quota system was based on the amount of milk that was collected, and a certain\u00A0percentage of milk\u2014I don\u2019t have that specific number in front of me\u2014had to be provided, which actually, effectively, shut out some of those smaller businesses and didn\u2019t allow them the opportunity to become part of what is a high-value export market, we agreed wholeheartedly with this piece of legislation, and that it does need to change to allow those smaller players into the fray.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWe did hear concern from one of the submitters, who did not want to see, necessarily, the changes to the quota system as such, because they were worried or concerned that there might be an opportunity for the system to be gamed. We questioned officials on that and we heard back quite clearly that it would be extremely and highly unlikely that we would see a situation like that, so the committee didn\u2019t agree to the suggested change by that that particular submitter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve already talked about the inclusion of non-bovine dairy products. Other changes that the select committee made to this bill were with regard to the quota compliance programme\u2014the QCP. What the bill required initially was that businesses would obtain a QCP before being eligible for export licences. Previously, they could apply for these licences without having a QCP, but this new rule aims to prevent businesses from applying for licences without the intent to use them. That could have been something that we may well have seen, and therefore people may have got additional quota without the actual intent to use that quota. We think that the changes we made in select committee, the amendment we have made, would not allow for that to happen. The amendment that we\u2019ve made around the QCP requirement relates to the fact that the quota was going to be based on the three years prior to this legislation coming into force, to determine the eligible quota allocation for 2026. There was a little bit of concern from those smaller players who haven\u2019t been part of this, haven\u2019t been able to trade and have a quota system as such, because they didn\u2019t have enough product to export. So we have made a change that would allow for those who don\u2019t have that export history to be part of this system so long as they obtain a QCP before exporting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI want to finish up by acknowledging the good work of the select committee\u2014the fact that we work collegially, as I mentioned before, for the good of the farming sector, the agricultural sector in New Zealand, because we do acknowledge and we do understand, as does this side of the House, the value of the agriculture sector to our economy here in New Zealand. We will do what we can in order to support that sector; therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a48207b22f884ad98b0395b5a9e3d72e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a48207b22f884ad98b0395b5a9e3d72e\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yes, the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act is a thing that you might be surprised to see a component of the amendment of being spoken in support of by the Green Party. Why, you might ask?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa6f96f3ba514d47aa40239bf883a67d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not asking. You\u2019re going to tell the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f44a85a661f8427fb3b14d43cde5cf24\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I am; I\u2019m going to tell the House. Why, one might ask? \u201CDairy dairy everywhere, nor any drop to drink\u201D, in the famous words of Samuel Coleridge. But what we have, and others have spoken to it, including the Minister, is this recognition that a large part of what gives value to New Zealand export products is that firm reputation for being a producer of natural and good quality food. Now, part of that reputation might be fictional, but the Green Party, and I think all of us, might like to make that not a fiction. Let\u2019s make that a reality. Let\u2019s make that good reputation something that is true and something that we stand by.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it allows the smaller players in dairy\u2014and, as my colleague Jo Luxton pointed out, those who may be producing other than bovine milk; they may be producing sheep milk or deer milk or other kinds of milk\u2014into that vital export market quota. And therefore it allows them to get a part of that export quota which is so essential to the agricultural sector in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re grappling with another bill right now, and I won\u2019t dwell on this, because there\u2019ll be a chance to later, but in one of the submissions made by the Dairy Companies Association of New Zealand on the gene tech bill, they made a general point about our dependency on export markets. They said, \u201CWe do not have the luxury of a large country that sells a large proportion of its product to its own domestic market. New Zealand\u2019s major primary sectors of dairy, meat, fisheries, wine, forestry, and selected horticulture products export up to 95\u00A0percent of their output\u201D\u2014we know that\u2019s true of the dairy industry\u2014\u201Ca level not matched in other developed countries. The additional factor is the export value of New Zealand derives from complex finished, or near-finished, food products, such as infant formula, as opposed to more basic commodities such as grain, cotton, or soy.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, this just goes to drive home the point that given that 95\u00A0percent of our product will be exported, access to those export quotas is vital for New Zealand businesses, and this bill facilitates the diversification of that access to those quotas. The Green Party sees that as a good thing, because this allows those new entrants, who are able to come in\u2014they might include smaller family businesses, they might include new smaller cooperatives, they might include iwi dairy producers, they might include regenerative or organic farmers who are needing to build their reputation by producing high-quality products that overseas customers want. That contributes to our good name in the global market place, because if we are able to meet the global customer demand for high-quality products that have been produced in a way that is sustainable, that is good for animal welfare, that is good for dealing with the climate, then any step we can take in that direction is a good thing for New Zealand and for the world and for those producers who are doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, in terms of an overall vision of where we would like to see New Zealand heading, this sort of amendment takes us in the right direction, because I believe we can be a true clean, green food producer. I believe we can be a nation that takes to its heart the principle that we need to be able to produce food in a way that doesn\u2019t harm the viability of those core things that we depend on\u2014the stability of the climate, the cleanliness of our river and our groundwater, the integrity of our biodiversity and our wetlands. It is possible for us to do all of those things. That might mean us having some tough conversations about land use change, about whether we should have quite so many dairy cows, and you know where we stand on that. That is not in any way to vilify farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a57b3749646f4e60bef45876ac7dc3f9\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221723db47591f43bf9e797d505a411cf5\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: It really isn\u2019t. It really isn\u2019t, because I know that farmers in this country are able to do many things. They are able to farm diversely. They are able to do different things and find more inventive and innovative ways of making a credible buck off the land, which, we all acknowledge they need to be able to do. But if this allows somebody to innovate and find a way to make a living from producing sheep milk, and create a boutique product or a niche product that is going to be saleable to the world market, and they can now get some quota to prove that point, good luck to them\u2014all power to them\u2014and that is for the good of our whole country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo I only outline this by way of explaining and expressing why we as Te P\u0101ti K\u0101k\u0101riki, the Green Party, see this as a good change, a good step in the direction that we want to be going in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EAnother thing is diversity in our production is resilience. Our ability to produce things on a number of frameworks, a number of products\u2014plant-based, animal-based, forestry products, diverse dairy products\u2014this is a good thing for our overall resilience. The more that we are able to produce things that are consistent with our values and the values that we know that a dedicated proportion of the global customer population want to buy\u2014they want natural products, they want high-quality products, and we know that those markets exist and we should be here willing to meet those markets. One day, perhaps, one of those milks that will be counted in the non-bovine dairy quota will be organically grown oat milk from Southland. Who knows? Why would\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a51c1cfb2afd413eb8cd2db095995f03\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: Oat juice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022917e24a27e984b51a75b17c9ae7d236e\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: But what\u2019s your problem with juice? We don\u2019t have a problem with juice. I don\u2019t care if you call it juice or milk. The point is, if farmers can make a living producing a product that is viable and valuable and better for the environment, all power to them, and that is the direction we should be going in. We genuinely believe that that is for the best of the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe bill is supported. We have got the best select committee in the Parliament, admirably chaired by our dear chair over there, Mark Cameron, who does a sterling job of keeping us in order and sharing around the burden of the responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThis bill will widen quota access to a range of different types of businesses. It will support smaller companies to scale up by either providing new access to quotas for those already eligible, potentially providing export licences in greater numbers than under the status quo\u2014always subvert the dominant paradigm. It will ensure that participants have demonstrated the ability to export the relevant products, and increase utilisation by aligning capability and eligibility. The bill also creates a regulation-making power. This enables 10\u00A0percent of export licences for a designated market listed in Schedule 5A of the Act to be reserved for exporters who would otherwise be ineligible and exporters only eligible for fewer than 200 tonnes of product. We think this is a useful step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt is nice when the House can agree on something. And, honestly, I think it would be good if we tried to find out more things that we agree on. I certainly hope, in our upcoming deliberations on the gene tech bill, that we are able to have some honest conversations about what is in the best interests of that reputation that this bill helps us to build up, and we should be thinking about how else we are building that reputation with other pieces of legislation through the House. We will be supporting this bill. Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you to my colleagues on the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022aff5909740e746759a6e98249414f5f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aff5909740e746759a6e98249414f5f8\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity to speak to this piece of legislation and join the House tonight. I just want to acknowledge Minister McClay, who\u2019s in the House, as being part of the overall oratory for this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EA bit of context and full disclosure: I am a dairy farmer, as you are all well aware, and a Fonterra supplier and I absolutely love rural New Zealand. The speech I\u2019m about to give is less so about the members of the House and is actually to celebrate the people outside of it, and the Speaker herself is a dairy farmer and will be cognisant of the wonderful people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0449c638b934a62ab305af53a5e37cc\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the second time I\u2019ve allowed myself to be brought into the debate tonight, so thank you. Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222071c6cdb7c3468694c4e297dbe513b0\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and acknowledge rural New Zealand and the dairy farmers in it. No better group of people, I would argue, to represent dairy farmers\u2014$26\u00A0billion to $27\u00A0billion, and it will only continue to grow. This piece of legislation is indicative of the reason, and the people, I came to Parliament, as I am one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI started my career as a little guy in a cowshed, a \u201Cten aside\u201D, and I don\u2019t want to overindulge the House, but just for the moment I will\u2014if I could, if they would bear with me. A \u201Cten aside\u201D cowshed\u2014some won\u2019t know what they look like; Mr Damien O\u2019Connor certainly would. He\u2019s probably cognisant of a \u201Cstep-up\u201D. We grew up with those kind of cowsheds. Hasn\u2019t the industry that we all now represent in rural New Zealand changed? Gracious me! Rotary cowsheds, modern technology, farmers invested in better outcomes\u2014what a wonderful story. That is Kiwi. That is so New Zealand. And we are part of that, on a global stage. How could we not pass this bill into law that gives that industry\u2014which I would say is the bedrock of rural New Zealand\u2014a continued future in terms of export earnings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EAnother point, that Mr Abel rightly pointed out, we\u2019ve got a fantastic committee. I am biased. Suze Redmayne is part of it, Steve Abel, Jo Luxton, others\u2014fantastic people, great to work with. They have seen the common sense that this legislation brings, and, by virtue, we\u2019ve got rid of all the political theatricality. We just said, \u201CLet\u2019s grow our economy.\u201D The Government currently has great aspirations to see a doubling of revenue export earnings, and this will embolden that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI won\u2019t over-litigate the complexities of the bill. Other members have already spoken to it. I think it highlights the importance of creating an environment where new entrants can come in and we do what we do so damnably well in New Zealand, in the land of milk and honey, and that is farm. I won\u2019t over-litigate it any further. I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7dd2f39f6cd4cf8b5ba2cdc959dfed6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7dd2f39f6cd4cf8b5ba2cdc959dfed6\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to rise on behalf of New Zealand First for this dairy bill, the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill, or the amendments we\u2019re putting through to the parent Act, the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act. Today, the Act is probably one of the most significant\u2014certainly from a commerce perspective\u2014Acts that\u2019s ever gone through this Parliament. It is an incredibly important piece of legislation that allowed the coming together; the bypassing of the Commerce Commission to bring the Kiwi dairy co-operative, which would be\u2014you\u2019re from Taranaki, Madam Speaker, so I\u2019d presume you were Kiwi? Mark Cameron in Northland, he was probably Dairy Group. Were you New Zealand Dairy Group in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b48ac8a3806147abb21956c7a9636c51\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Northland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b0e9e756c8b4cbb8b25f9c0aec161ac\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Northland. Well, Northland got brought into Dairy Group in the end. There was only\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022810bd901809f4c82b15fd70bc6417792\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: Kiwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a2b5972176b43439adad205adce5b5d\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Into Kiwi. But it was very tribal\u2014very tribal. There was Tui down in the South Island\u2014that was amalgamation through the 1990s. There was a massive amalgamation of small dairy co-ops that have ended up today with Fonterra because of this legislation. It is our most important company. The nation rises and falls on its fortunes more than a lot of people in this House would understand or care to believe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI just would like to put on the record: because of that significance, the fact that Fonterra are selling their brands at the moment, that this Parliament allowed the formation of Fonterra, I\u2019m disappointed this Parliament hasn\u2019t put more scrutiny over that deal; those\u2014now Mainland that they\u2019re looking at splitting off and selling\u2014are iconic New Zealand brands. I wrote to both the Finance and Expenditure Committee and the Primary Production Committee to ask them to bring Fonterra in to explain to the Parliament why brands that they had been entrusted with, they were looking at selling off. And I was disappointed to get a negative response from both those select committees. I think the Parliament has failed a little bit in this regard to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c124d910183e4b29a7fac5d7d03ef2f2\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Farmers\u2019 decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eae0c104a9cd463f84a5bef8119beb3a\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Grant McCallum has just said it\u2019s the farmers\u2019 decision, and to a point it is. But the farmers also have to realise that this Parliament granted them the ability to form a near monopoly. The parent legislation was designed to foster some competition, and that\u2019s where, I guess if we fast-forward to today, we are with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThis is a modest amendment put forward by the Minister of Agriculture to allow quota allocation of export licences to smaller operators to make it easy for them to get some access, which will allow, potentially, for some of those smaller operators to grow. They will not grow into being the next Fonterra, but they might grow into being the next Tatua, which is a highly profitable smaller dairy co-operative. Lewis Road, for example, is another company that has done very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThis bill enables that in a modest way, so New Zealand First absolutely supports it\u2014it\u2019s a very sensible move and made for good reasons and I\u2019m pleased that it\u2019s had cross-party support across the Parliament. But I think, in doing that, we\u2019ve actually missed the forest for the trees here\u2014the really big deal that\u2019s going down in terms of value-add, and potentially trading away those brand businesses that have been built over generations when we\u2019ve got technology like precision fermentation coming down the line that could disrupt the very ingredients that Fonterra are backing. That\u2019s their strategy: is now to go fully down that ingredients path, which are ripe for disruption, and this Parliament should have shown more interest in that deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aab9a87e596848a69893aad3eb31513a\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019re in Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022919e9d57a61f4583a693a9fb2cc17419\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: But, well, both select committees who were bipartisan have turned it down, so that would have been the first step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EAnyway, I have digressed a little bit from the bill, Madam Speaker, but I did want to put that on the record because we have missed the forest for the trees here. There\u2019s some really big\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a2526c4bfd34844a513090712ddcb0e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s still relevant to the topic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a60fdbfe8bf41c387fc3352fe94e032\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is still relevant to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a725871e28564dcc9733c5043779dd4c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: But you can come back to the bill now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a09fcf3355e2439bb778a14f1599b4de\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: So we do support it. New Zealand First does support the measures in this bill that will allow for more diversification of access to our smaller, emerging, value-added companies to get into some of those export markets, and particularly in this time when you\u2019ve got a situation where, actually, trade access is becoming incredibly important as the world is in some tumult around the deglobalisation, essentially, around trade and trade barriers going up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESo these quotas, even though they\u2019re not used to their maximum degree or haven\u2019t been for some time\u2014for most years\u2014could become very, very sought after indeed in the coming years, and to carve out some space for new entrants is a very good move from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI commend the Primary Production Committee for having shepherded this through, and we look forward to the third reading. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u002238de49832d5f4a3ab85b7c4614855d5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238de49832d5f4a3ab85b7c4614855d5a\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. Before Madam Speaker exits the chair, I just want to say happy birthday. I know that you\u2019re getting your SuperGold card today, so t\u0113n\u0101 rawa atu ki a koe. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare, e t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i te p\u014D nei. E mihi ana au ki te Minita, e Todd McClay. E mihi ana au hoki ki a koe Mark te tiamana o te komiti whakahaere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[So I acknowledge you. Greetings to the House. I stand to deliver the speech on behalf of the M\u0101ori Party this evening. I acknowledge the Minister, Todd McClay. I also acknowledge you, Mark, the chairperson of the select committee.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI rise on behalf of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori tonight to support this bill in its second reading. However, I do want to take this opportunity to add my own flavour, as I usually do, and add my 2c on to the broader context of this, which affects our rohe and our electorate as M\u0101ori. I am the Hauraki-Waikato MP, and knowing a M\u0101ori seat, that\u2019s eight general seats in one, so it\u2019s very large. That\u2019s a lot of farmland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EHoki ake nei au ki t\u014Dku awa koiora me ng\u014Dna pikonga, he kura tangihia o te m\u0101t\u0101muri. E whakawhiti atu ana ai au ki te k\u014Dp\u016B m\u0101nia o Kirikiriroa me ng\u014Dna m\u0101ra kai, te ng\u0101wh\u0101 whakatipu ake o te whenua m\u014Dmona hei kawe ki Ng\u0101ruaw\u0101hia, te huihuinga o te tangata. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[I return to my life-giving river and its bends, each bend more beautiful than the last. Across the smooth belly of Kirikiriroa, its gardens bursting with the fullness of good things, towards the meeting place at Ng\u0101ruaw\u0101hia.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThese are the words spoken by K\u012Bngi T\u0101whiao, referring to the jewel that is Te Awa o Waikato, each bend more beautiful than the last.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThe people of Waikato have a complicated history with milk. Like other iwi, our lands were illegally, excessively, and unjustly confiscated to provide for New Zealand\u2019s dairy and larger export growth. The predicament that we face as Waikato is the mere fact that 1.2\u00A0million acres of land was wrongly confiscated off us and the majority of our land is being used for farming. The majority of our people are kaimahi, the hard-working factory workers in these industries like AAFCO, Open Country Dairy, Tegel, Fonterra, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m fourth generation. My two grandfathers were also in the meatworks, so it is in our whakapapa, but I find it ironic that our country is one of the largest food providers in the world, exporting the world\u2019s highest quality of dairy and meat, yet its own workers can\u2019t even afford the very own bread and butter that they make on their own land. So it is an experience that we face as the rohe of Waikato and many other iwis across the country. So, yeah, it is a raw reality that we face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EHowever, while Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori supports this bill, it wishes to place on to the record that although iwi M\u0101ori agricultural interests are intertwined within New Zealand\u2019s economy, there is and always has been a desire to transition to new economies of the future. We believe that there is a role and responsibility on the Government to ensure food security and availability for those who cannot afford kai here at home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2019s vision for food security: also a project that we worked on with the Ministry for Primary Industries, prior to me entering in this job, around food sovereignty and helping wh\u0101nau that own M\u0101ori land to develop different types of m\u0101ra kais throughout their marae that support kuras, so that could be another option for school lunches. But we do support the use of quotas to ensure that the people of Aotearoa continue to have access to these products here at home. While export growth favours those who benefit from it most, food security here at home must surely benefit us all. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u00227736dd7a6a3244deb24dd7a465b8037f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227736dd7a6a3244deb24dd7a465b8037f\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. This is something remarkable. I feel refreshed with the love across the House\u2014the love across the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022921991b473a64b9e871537f2bc6d7b09\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: I always knew you loved cows!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a705056836347b69a36ff5dd5c01ee8\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: We do, we do love dairy on this side of the House as well. In fact, I am feeling rather nostalgic, because when I lived in France, I used to milk goats and sheep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022641de540c2cb4cfe956a6db917066ebc\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: What was its name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aee5b7e01d34420a4663346f4e9d0ba\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: His name? Male goats don\u2019t have teats. And I used to milk a cow occasionally, and we used to make a very nice little cheese called a P\u00E9lardon. P\u00E9lardon is typically eaten at about one and a half weeks old, and it needs a bit of air, needs a bit of moisture. And what happens with that milk, turned into cheese, over the course of that one and a half weeks, with a bit of moist air flowing across it, is it forms a sort of a crust around the cheese that is like a merino\u2019s backside in shape, but when you cut into it with a glass of red wine, it is fantastic; there is nothing better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe support this bill\u2014we support this bill\u2014because we see the opportunity here for real value for our small, value-added producers, those farmers who are practising regenerative, organic agriculture who want to access a market and who understand that the markets that they are accessing want our produce to be quality. They want our produce to be full of environmental big ticks\u2014they don\u2019t want gene-edited cheese and milk; they want the real thing. This bill gives us an opportunity to go that way. This provisioning for ensuring 10\u00A0percent of licences for what have been, up until recently, ineligible small producers, will help grow those small dairy businesses. That completely aligns with our goals to help adapt to a changing world, to help our rural communities grow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve often heard the rhetoric across the House of, you know, \u201CWe\u2019re ending the war on farmers.\u201D This is a nonsense, really. What we are doing here, and what we all really want, is for our rural communities to thrive. We don\u2019t need to seed division. We need to look for moments like this, where we find common cause to support our rural communities, who want to produce, who want secure markets, who want their brand to be strong, who simply want the arguments to end so that they can get on and do what they know is right. This is a really interesting and valuable addition, this Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill, because it will allow for growth in the organic dairy sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe are in support of this bill. We\u2019re in support of this bill because it offers so many opportunities to those innovative farmers who are reducing emissions, looking after their animals, and making money from doing good in their environment\u2014restoring the whenua, replanting riparian strips. This bill is about adding value, rather than volume, but ensuring that that value has an export market that understands where it is coming from and what it can do for Aotearoa and for our reputation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EIt would be remiss of me to not mention the other bill that we hope, across the House, we achieve the same sort of support for. We do not need gene-edited milk, or gene-edited anything, in Aotearoa. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u0022edf340de77bd4bd5bd0bf22b1d268535\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edf340de77bd4bd5bd0bf22b1d268535\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, isn\u2019t it nice we\u2019ve all got the warm fuzzies because we\u2019ve all finally agreed on something? We\u2019ve agreed that we fully support this bill to go through the House and to develop and open up our trade and export for the little guys who can get out there and put New Zealand even further on the global stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EI want to commend the Primary Production Committee for a fine piece of work and getting everyone across the line with this, and to the Minister for his work in this bill. It makes sense for all of us to be expanding our opportunities and heading for growth in whatever we can, so I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u0022d97820fb0e0c4b68a102c3883f7d36b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d97820fb0e0c4b68a102c3883f7d36b1\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, otir\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa e noho harikoa ana, e katakata ana i raro i t\u014D t\u0101tou nei whakaaro tahi ki te tautoko i t\u0113nei pire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EE rere r\u0101 te kir\u012Bmi i roto i ng\u0101 k\u0113na nei\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EKia tika h\u0101werewere, kei rere p\u0101rorirori\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EKia rite ai ng\u0101 nama\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker, and all of us here, happy and laughing in like mind supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EFlow on, cream,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EInto those cans!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EGo straight in,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EDon\u2019t go astray,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ESo our debts can be paid!]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EThat is the chorus of a waiata written by T\u0101 \u0100pirana Nohopari Turupa Ngata in 1924. I had the privilege of listening to a k\u014Drero by also the late great master carver Pine Taiapa recounting the story of when this was written.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve said, I stand also in support of the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill. The message that resonates with me is that the dream and the vision remain the same. Ever since 1924, T\u0101 \u0100pirana Ngata had a vision. He had a vision that remains the same, from my perspective, for people of Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti and people of Aotearoa today. That is the utilisation of our land; economic development for the benefit of our wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EWhen T\u0101 \u0100pirana wrote this song\u2014I\u2019m going to go through it verse by verse, because, actually, the formula, the vision, and the future of this bill was written by T\u0101 \u0100pirana Ngata in 1924, so far as I\u2019m concerned. You know, I\u2019ve heard people quoting T\u0101 \u0100pirana Ngata and referring to T\u0101 \u0100pirana Ngata\u2014and, in my opinion, not always accurately or fairly, and that is also the whakaaro of his wh\u0101nau. However, I am confident that, looking down today, T\u0101 \u0100pirana Ngata\u2019s going, \u201CKa pai. Kei te whakatinana r\u0101tou i \u014Dku hiahia.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[\u201CVery good. They are executing my wishes.\u201D]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EThey\u2019re fulfilling the dream that he also made a lot of headway in fulfilling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ESo, in his first verse, he talks about how dairy farming is going to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ET\u0113r\u0101 te mahi pai rawa \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EE k\u012B ana mai he mahi r\u0101,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EE puta ai ng\u0101 moni nunui noa \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EE whanga r\u0101 e tama m\u0101 ki ng\u0101 pei marama kua riro k\u0113 i ng\u0101 nama,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EAu\u0113 ng\u0101 wawata. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[There\u2019s some really good work\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve been told about,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EWork that will make us\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ELots and lots of money!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EJust wait, you fellows,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EFor your monthly pay -\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EBut our debts have taken it,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ESo much for our dreams!]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHere, he talks about how dairy is going to be such an opportunity, particularly for veterans who returned with nothing. He said here is our opportunity to fulfil your dreams and allow you to fulfil them yourselves through hard work and utilisation of our whenua and kotahitanga. Then he talks about how he made the trip. It\u2019s a shame, Madam Speaker\u2014I mean, it\u2019s wonderful to see you here, Mr Speaker. But he made a trip to Taranaki to see M\u0101ui P\u014Dmare and to learn what Ngati Porou, and, indeed, further abroad, could learn from Taranaki about dairy farming. So began Ngati Porou dairy farming, and also initiatives like the Waiapu Farmers\u2019 Co-operative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI had the privilege of growing up in the Tikitiki Waiapu Farmers as a rangatahi, and so it\u2019s really endearing to remember the true whakapapa of those buildings throughout the coast, in that it was a vision T\u0101 \u0100pirana Ngata had around dairy and collectives. I think that\u2019s the beautiful part of this verse. We talk about kotahitanga all the time and working together all the time, and here is a true example, of T\u0101 \u0100pirana Ngata going to Taranaki and learning from M\u0101ui P\u014Dmare. So t\u0113nei te mihi atu ki a koutou katoa ng\u0101 uri o Taranaki. [So I acknowledge you all, the descendants of Taranaki.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EThen he goes on to talk about the progress:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ET\u0113r\u0101 te pata rongonui,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHe N\u0101ti te ingoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ETe w\u0101hi r\u0101 i mahia ai \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003Eko Ruatorea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[There\u2019s some famous butter,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u201CN\u0101ti\u201D is its name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EThe place where they make it\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EIs Ruatorea.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EThen there was the famous butter called N\u0101ti. N\u0101ti is a colloquialism for people of Ngati Porou, and we talk about he w\u012Bw\u012B, he N\u0101ti, he whanoke [the Ngati Porou people, strong-willed and daring], prolific, plentiful, and resilient. So that was the name of this butter. You know, by looking at me, you\u2019d think I\u2019d eaten a lot of\u2014you know, the hips; there\u2019s a bit of N\u0101ti butter on there\u2014but no, it\u2019s just other wonderful New Zealand products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EThe important part in there, too: ko Ruat\u014Dria. This was produced in Ruat\u014Dria, and now, you know, we hear a lot about the Fonterras. A lot of the dairy industry has moved to big, major players. Reflecting on this waiata and our history in small places like the Tair\u0101whiti, the opportunities that this bill offers are very, very exciting, because we don\u2019t have the capacity any more to build huge factories in places like Ruat\u014Dria, Tikitiki\u2014Tokomaru Bay, perhaps\u2014but we do have the capacity in our Landcorp cooperatives to provide product that can be sent to be manufactured and to get a fair share of the opportunities that will be provided under this bill, to take good-quality East Coast, Taranaki, Wanganui products to the world, and everyone has the opportunity to showcase what we could potentially call boutique products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EThe final verse in that waiata is dedicated specifically to the opening of the factory. [Grant McCallum\u2019s phone rings] I don\u2019t require backing tracks, thank you, that side of the House, but I\u2019ll let you know next time\u2014I\u2019ll actually coordinate. Grant, this is our waiata; you bring the sounds. Heoi an\u014D, the last part of the waiata is:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHaramai r\u0101, Pirimia, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003Em\u0101hau te kawanga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EE pono ai te mahi nei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHe mahi pai rawa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[Welcome, Prime Minister,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EYou are to perform\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EThe opening ceremony\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EFor this food-producing work.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EAnd it was referring to the Prime Minister of the day. Welcome, Prime Minister, you are to perform the opening, because it is true that this is an excellent industry for us to partake in. So I look forward to one day the Prime Minister of the day attending openings of many smaller boutique initiatives across Aotearoa on M\u0101ori land holdings, on non-M\u0101ori land holdings\u2014wherever throughout Aotearoa\u2014to take advantage of this opportunity to take even more amazing New Zealand product to the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EOn the issue of cooperatives, I just want to also acknowledge the fact that I\u2019ve been given the fantastic and exciting opportunity as Labour spokesperson on M\u0101ori economic development. So, obviously, this is a very relevant bill to that and to my electorate, and, of course, to Aotearoa wh\u0101nui. So I want to acknowledge some of the current initiatives that I\u2019m sure \u0100pirana Ngata would\u2019ve smiled fondly upon\u2014initiatives like Miraka, who produce over 300\u00A0million litres of milk a year i raro i te whakaaro kotahi [with a unified understanding]. That is another example of kotahitanga. Initiatives like Maui Milk\u2014and both of those initiatives I\u2019ve been asked: why are people so attracted to the M\u0101ori economy? It\u2019s because of the values initiatives like this embrace, the values of kaitiakitanga, the nurturing of the resource that they utilise and trade so that it\u2019ll endure for generations. That is the uniqueness, and that is another exciting opportunity. We know the M\u0101ori economy has boomed and it will continue to boom under bills like this because people are attracted to the long-term vision that M\u0101ori traders have and the whakaaro that goes into not just producing a commodity, a product, but to portraying the pride they have in their whenua, their taonga, and the moemoe\u0101 they have for future generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHeoi an\u014D r\u0101, hei whakakapi m\u0101ku i t\u0113nei w\u0101, he hokinga mahara ki a koe e p\u0101, e T\u0101 Apirana Ngata, n\u0101u t\u0113nei moemoea m\u014D t\u0101tou o Ngati Porou. I t\u0113nei w\u0101 ko te hiahia kei te kite koe kua p\u016B\u0101wai \u014D whakaaro. T\u0113r\u0101 pea an\u014D ka whakat\u016B mai an\u014D \u0113tahi kaupapa p\u0113r\u0101 i roto i a Ngati Porou, i roto i ng\u0101 iwi katoa puta noa i a Aotearoa. Heoi an\u014D, hei k\u014Drero whakamutunga m\u0101ku, t\u0113nei te mihi atu ki a koe, e te Minita.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[And so, in closing, my thoughts turn to you, Sir Apirana Ngata. This was your dream for us, for Ngati Porou. Now, the hope is that you can see the fruits of your labour. Perhaps another initiative such as that will be established in Ngati Porou, and in all iwi throughout Aotearoa. And now, my final words: I acknowledge you, Minister.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EAlso want to acknowledge my colleagues on this side of the House, in particular the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, who drove\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a6660c2c1944908aa20dd6c094515ec\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a good man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6c6549ab2cc45e8b1547c98e12544fb\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014he\u2019s a pretty good fella, yeah\u2014this bill, and the Hon Jo Luxton for sharing the technicalities of this bill earlier. I couldn\u2019t end the speech without acknowledging my amazing colleagues from the Primary Production Committee. Heoi an\u014D r\u0101, huri noa ki a t\u0101tou, t\u0113n\u0101 rawa atu t\u0101tou katoa. [I acknowledge everyone here.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff6336f09686474c8de3d0e23e7d26cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff6336f09686474c8de3d0e23e7d26cd\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This bill essentially changes how dairy quotas are administered. It\u2019s not contentious. It\u2019s common sense. It\u2019s all about doubling export receipts. I just want to take time to thank the best select committee in Parliament. Yeah, we miss you, Cushla. We can\u2019t believe you ditched us!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EAnyway, I\u2019d also like to thank the Minister. We got the bill through pretty quickly and that was really important because we had to have the Royal assent done by the end of the month to make this bill able to come into effect straight away. I want to shout out to all the dairy farmers, including non-bovine dairy farmers, whom this bill also benefits, and, of course, to the dairy farmers in the mighty Rangit\u012Bkei. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u002282c5cec9e30e4d83b4a53b46a4c741f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282c5cec9e30e4d83b4a53b46a4c741f4\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker\u2014and in case you\u2019re wondering, I\u2019m not going to sing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad29d345e718471fa01b1a3919baaa56\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Disappointing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227966e62462e944eabc83ce4be1c66c35\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll leave that to my very able colleague here, who does it beautifully, I can assure you. I\u2019ll also leave it to other members of my family, who do it much better than me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI am standing up to speak, it will come as no surprise, in support of this bill, partly because of what we got started last time we were in Government but also because it\u2019s about increasing access to export quotas for our smaller dairy producers. We think that\u2019s important. I\u2019d also like to acknowledge the work that the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor has done to open these opportunities for innovative dairy exporters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s always good to round out speeches by just revisiting some of the key points\u2014starting, really, with the background and the understanding that dairy export quotas are often negotiated as part of international trade agreements, and some of those were agreed as part of bilateral free-trade agreement negotiations. These quotas allow New Zealand, in our dairy products, to export to designated international markets at better and beneficial rates, and that includes the US, the United Kingdom, the European Union, Japan, and the Dominican Republic. Now, exporters that do not hold that quota can still export into quota markets, but they\u2019re subject to much higher tariffs and potentially other barriers to trade. This is a good opportunity for us, through this bill, to address some of those challenges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe original dairy export quota allocation system was established back in 2007, so we can see that\u2019s almost 20 years ago. Since that time, there have been a number of things that have changed. There\u2019s been an increase in the diversity of business models in the industry, including\u2014and we\u2019ve heard a lot of mentions this evening\u2014companies that do not collect milk. There\u2019s been a low utilisation of dairy export quotas over the last 10 years, and we\u2019ve also progressed and agreed to new free-trade agreements with the UK and the EU, both of which have quota allocations that dairy sector participants have indicated a high level of interest in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESo if this is a bill about increasing access to export quotas for our smaller dairy producers, then it\u2019s also good to look at four of the key factors of that. One is the export volume history - based allocation. This change has widened access to export quotas beyond just those companies that collect large volumes of milk solids. The next is reserve quotas, where the goal is to support smaller and niche businesses that may not yet have the scale to meet the regular criteria but do show potential for growth. The inclusion of non-bovine dairy\u2014and we\u2019ve talked a little bit about that, and one member confessed to milking goats in France, so there\u2019s definitely opportunities here for non-bovine. This futureproofs the system to accommodate new sectors within the dairy industry. And, of course, really importantly, there is compliance and oversight: this bill also introduces measures for compliance, which are very, very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EUltimately, what we\u2019re looking at and what we\u2019re supporting in this bill is increasing access for smaller producers. We\u2019re looking at opening up opportunities for smaller companies here in New Zealand to diversify into niche products. We are empowering regional development, and that\u2019s a really important element\u2014creating new regional development opportunities with tangible benefits to local communities. And, overall, we are enabling these companies to innovate and compete more effectively in global markets. That does increase our access and their access to export quotas, and that\u2019s what we know they need. It rewards innovation and entrepreneurship in our proud farming communities, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f14fdaf83dfb4b7daa5b9187352e15e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f14fdaf83dfb4b7daa5b9187352e15e2\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Just before I do go on to the content of the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill, I do want to talk about the dairy industry that has actually held our economy strong for decades and decades. And didn\u2019t it show through the pandemic stages there? At the worst of the pandemic, when everybody was in lockdown, weren\u2019t we a lucky country to have the strong dairy industry that we had? We can thank the many producers that we have in our country. And, of course, the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act, which helped the formation of Fonterra, also saw the development of the global dairy trade, which arguably has actually created billions of dollars\u2019 worth of value for our country as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003EI would like to thank, firstly, the former Minister Damien O\u2019Connor and also the current Minister, Todd McClay, for championing this bill to where it is today. As the previous speaker has just said, this does provide greater opportunities for the country in realising more value but also for the smaller exporters to get the opportunity to get a part of the quota that they don\u2019t have access to at this time and also, for the producers of other non-bovine milk\u2014the likes of sheep, goat, and deer\u2014opening it up for them as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003EThis has a lot of positives all round, this bill. Thank you very much to the Primary Production Committee, which unfortunately I wasn\u2019t part of. But their humbleness has shown us tonight that they were a very good and harmonious group to be able to get this work done. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022228f9e2525d74c309957dfdec6ad84ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022228f9e2525d74c309957dfdec6ad84ac\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you very much for this good opportunity to say a few words on this. Probably 30 years ago, people would have thought you never wanted or needed a bill like this. In fact, the world and New Zealand was embarking upon a free-trade agenda that would have kind of gotten rid of all these barriers in some of these very important markets, and dairy has always been a critical industry for us. We\u2019ve done our best, and the trade Minister there and many before him have tried to break down the barriers. But the reality is that there are still quotas or limitations on the volumes of product that can go into markets, particularly around agricultural products, and in dairy in particular. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe US, the UK, the EU, Japan, and the Dominican Republic are the higher-value markets that we sell dairy products into, but there are limitations on volume, and there has been a lot of explanation over the reasons and the technical issues of this bill. I\u2019m not going to repeat those, other than to say that it wasn\u2019t a foregone conclusion that this would be in the House, either. In fact, we\u2019d done the work in Government to go out and talk with the industry about the need to adjust what was a kind of an assumed structure\u2014that is, the volume of milk that you picked up from the farmers as a\u00A0percentage of the total volume; it gave you quota access into the markets. It\u2019s pretty simple: Fonterra got most of it, and a couple of other dairy companies, but there were emerging new and innovative players in the dairy market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe\u2019d negotiated better access into the UK and the EU, so we, in Government, considered that it was important to take a look at the quota market access mechanisms, and there wasn\u2019t enthusiasm, as I say, from the existing players. Fonterra was quite happy just to get automatic allocation of that. Keeping out potential players and competitors is probably not a bad strategy, but, in fact, it is not a good long-term one for \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo this bill was designed and had its consultation and its early development. Then it\u2019s come through the Primary Production Committee to be a vehicle for innovation in the dairy sector, and it\u2019s even more important now, given that Fonterra have indicated that they\u2019re going to step back from some of the consumer brand sales, back into an ingredients strategy. I\u2019m not going to go into the whys and wherefores of that at this point in time, other than to say that we need to look for innovative players in the dairy industry that will add value to milk powder and the core components of milk here and get as much as we possibly can, particularly if we\u2019re going to double the value of our exports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does, of course, is it just changes access to that and says that if you\u2019ve exported\u2014and probably anyone exporting outside the main players, anything in dairy around the world now, they\u2019re pretty smart to have survived. They deserve to have some protection and a greater access as of right into some of these higher-value markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI go back and say again that the assumption that quotas would be kind of gone by now was a wishful hope and thought back in the 1980s and 1990s. The free-trade agreement that we\u2014actually, Labour\u2014negotiated with China, once again, kind of brought some comfort and ease to the dairy industry to say, \u201CWell, here\u2019s an easy market\u2014a huge market. We\u2019ll just carry on, and the quota markets aren\u2019t that important. We\u2019ve got some going to the US and the EU.\u201D, but, in fact, we\u2019d neglected some of them, and many of the quotas hadn\u2019t been taken up in full. So we were at risk\u2014and still are at risk, if we don\u2019t use these quota markets properly, as intended\u2014that the country that we\u2019ve negotiated them with will say, \u201CYou haven\u2019t utilised them all, so therefore we\u2019ll take back some of that volume.\u201D That\u2019s why we need good, robust trade agreements\u2014so that we can protect the access that we have negotiated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBut moving forward, and not taking any of this quota market for granted now and appreciating the fact that these are the higher-value markets, we\u2019ve got to push the boundaries of those volumes in any way we can. So it will be new and emerging companies, and what I\u2019d say is that Fonterra, as an ingredients company, will be providing high-quality ingredients offshore to many of the traders and many of the people who are going to then turn those ingredients into high-value consumer products, which is another issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBut I hope they have the same enthusiasm to supply New Zealand companies with the same ingredients so that they can develop their own products and export into these markets. They may say, \u201CWell, we don\u2019t have to be quite so generous.\u201D, but we say\u2014as Mr Cameron said here\u2014that Fonterra is a construct of this Parliament. Exemptions from the Commerce Act were to allow the scale, the scope, and the vision for Fonterra to thrive. It\u2019s been through a few ups and downs, but it shouldn\u2019t do that at the expense of others who might want to grow and thrive, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo in passing this piece of legislation, we have to make sure that the intent, as it was at the start of this process, is carried right through when we do allocate this quota market access. Now, that doesn\u2019t guarantee, of course, that people are going to make a whole lot of money going to the market. They\u2019re still going to have to be good individual companies and they\u2019re still going to have to have good products, but, ultimately, this provides a vehicle for the kind of growth and innovation that we need to see in the dairy industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I just go back and say that, again, in the early stages of this process, there wasn\u2019t a great deal of enthusiasm, as I said, from the industry, and neither was there from officials\u2014they don\u2019t like kind of stirring things up, I have to say. I\u2019m not dumping on them; I\u2019m saying that stability is a wonderful ideal, but, actually, some healthy tension in the market, particularly in our biggest industry, is very, very good for each and every one of us. The Ministry for Primary Industries will be allocated the responsibility to oversee this process, and I hope that they do it\u2014as they usually do\u2014in the best possible way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe dairy industry is a very proud one. Mr Patterson spoke of it in the way he should have, and it\u2019s very important to us. But if we make mistakes, it can affect our economy very, very quickly. We are about 2.5\u00A0percent of the total global production of milk. We trade, or fill the gaps where it\u2019s needed, at about 35\u00A0percent of the total global trade of dairy products, which is very significant. But we shouldn\u2019t ever get ahead of ourselves and think that because we trade a large volume, we have a large global influence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIndeed, the Minister of Trade and Investment, who is also the Minister of Agriculture, is now talking to India and I wish him all the very best. India has a massive dairy industry. They\u2019re very sensitive to traded product around the world. If he can get a quota into India, that will be a wonderful achievement, to go along with the comprehensive free-trade agreement. It might be possible, but, again, we\u2019re making sure that the quotas are into high-value markets that make it worthwhile to have the additional administrative compliance costs with that, so India might not be one of those markets that people rush to trade into. In the meantime, the US, the UK, the EU, Japan, and the Dominican Republic all do provide high-value opportunities for our exporters, so people now will have the opportunity, hopefully, to get zero tariff, and if not, certainly under the quota limitations that are currently into those markets. On top of it, as has been said before, the new innovation in goat milk and sheep milk that we\u2019re starting to see emerge from our country\u2014they too, as producers and exporters, need to be given the opportunity, where possible, to trade into those valuable markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo Labour in Opposition supports this piece of legislation, as we did in Government. We wish all those exporters the very best in terms of utilising the opportunities that they now are provided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022b731127616b24f57be8a956a0139e422\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b731127616b24f57be8a956a0139e422\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, it\u2019s with great pleasure that I rise to support this very logical and sensible bill. As a proud dairy farmer and someone who\u2019s been part of a dairy farming family for many, many years, it\u2019s great to see the harmony around the sector in the House tonight. I look forward to the same level of harmony as we look to pass other Acts of Parliament which affect the dairy sector to quite some degree. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to commend and thank our Minister, the Hon Todd McClay, for the work he\u2019s done in this space, and acknowledge the previous Minister, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, and the work of the Primary Production Committee. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002228ba19cc352945faa0a1d3974efda810\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228ba19cc352945faa0a1d3974efda810\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for the consideration of the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bfcd824ad46e4cb08ec109cb0c5c89b1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002299acc6877334410aa776c0194cba7353\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments relating to international trade with designated markets\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0944921db414c34b7f8e23c80356099\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0944921db414c34b7f8e23c80356099\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is considering the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill. Members, we come first to Part 1. Part\u00A01 is the debate on clauses 4 to 9, \u201CAmendments relating to international trade with designated markets\u201D, and the Schedule. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3310177c10c471582bfd56552594e0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3310177c10c471582bfd56552594e0b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair. This is a fascinating piece of legislation for someone who\u2019s not deeply embedded in the area of dairy trade, but I am interested in competition. From what I understand from this bill\u2014and I ask the committee\u2019s indulgence if I don\u2019t have the depth of understanding of other members in the Chamber\u2014it\u2019s a shift from historical exports as a basis for allocating quota, as opposed to dairy production. In a nutshell, that seems to be the centrepiece of this bill. I guess, from a competition standpoint, I\u2019m always concerned with any rule that looks backwards in giving an advantage, because these quotas are clearly highly advantageous. If you\u2019re given them, you have preferential access to an overseas market. In terms of the business that\u2019s going on in New Zealand, we want the most effective and efficient, nimble businesses that we can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo my question, essentially, for the Minister for Agriculture is this: is there a risk here that a new business without history of export into markets will be disadvantaged and they will, in fact, suffer greater barriers to entry, because, in dairy, exports are the biggest game in town? Will they suffer a disadvantage because they don\u2019t have an export history?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo if they\u2019re a start-up who\u2019s got a better milking practice and better nutrition and all of those important things and they\u2019re actually doing it better, but because they don\u2019t get preferential low-tariff entry, or no-tariff entry in some cases, will that, in fact, mean that they\u2019re more likely to fail and they can\u2019t compete on an equal footing? Because that\u2019s what a kind of historic, looking-back to say, \u201CWhat\u2019s your history of export?\u201D, seems to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, it may well be that, within the organisation, there\u2019s room for allocation of quota to address this kind of competition issue. But, along with, I\u2019m sure, everyone else in this House, we want to see a dairy industry which rewards innovation and new entrants and best practice and doesn\u2019t reward legacy dairying simply on the basis that it\u2019s done it for a long time in a good way. So it\u2019s just a very brief question to kick us off. But I am quite interested in that because competition is critical not only for domestic cost of living issues but also to make sure that internationally we\u2019re highly competitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022876aa70e6577482490de6bb3592cd66c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022876aa70e6577482490de6bb3592cd66c\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you for the question. The answer is no. There won\u2019t be disadvantage, and I\u2019ll come to the exact reason why in a moment. But, in fact, this will allow greater competition, not take competition away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIf it is based upon the amount of milk that is collected, and then a quota is divided up based upon that, you actually don\u2019t have to be an exporter to get a quota, or you may never use it, although you would have to apply for it. In its essence, what it means is that people who are exporting have a greater ability to get quota. Now, the majority of our dairy exports go to countries where there isn\u2019t a quota. Australia is an example. China is an example. Therefore, based upon your\u00A0percentage in a tariff line of a dairy product of your exports anywhere in the world, if you reach 3\u00A0percent, you are eligible for 3\u00A0percent of the quota into a market where we have a quota.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIn the case, though, that somebody is a new entrant\u2014they have started collecting milk in New Zealand, or let\u2019s just say they actually are buying milk from somewhere, not collecting it and they\u2019re making cheese\u2014you are right that it would be challenging for them without a three-year history of export anywhere in the world to get quota. But we are creating regulation-setting powers to create a pool that would allow us to recognise that under circumstances, to allow a new entrant to build up that profile by exporting into a market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe final thing here, though, is exporting is not easy. In fact, as many colleagues will know, exporting dairy products around the world is very challenging. It\u2019s extremely competitive and it is hard to get into markets. In fact, dairy is one of the most heavily protected commodities produced in the world, traded, and certainly one of the most heavily subsidised in the world. We have none of that here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESo the point I guess I\u2019m making is that if somebody wants to create a product and say, \u201CI\u2019m going to export and I only want access to these preferential quotas with lower tariff rates and not elsewhere.\u201D, you\u2019d actually suggest that they are using that to be more competitive than they are because they haven\u2019t reached other markets. Therefore, my view is this is a fair balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EBut the point around \u201CWill it hold a new entrant back having to wait three years?\u201D, we have the ability to create a pool to reserve some of this quota to share where necessary, particularly for smaller players that may never get to a large enough\u00A0percentage for it to be meaningful in a quota market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e78336766c3b4ed7b50e75e33c4d834d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e78336766c3b4ed7b50e75e33c4d834d\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to ask a question that follows on from my colleague the Hon Duncan Webb with regard to the quota. The Minister of Agriculture just talked about those who haven\u2019t been part of the system\u2014making this a bit fairer for them to be able to enter the quota system. I note, though, Minister, that the volume is based on the three previous seasons, for those existing. So my question to the Minister is: why did you land on the three previous seasons as opposed to perhaps the one season beforehand, and not make your decisions based on those? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00229a93d32bf1394b6e86164b695ab84123\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a93d32bf1394b6e86164b695ab84123\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In essence, it\u2019s to smooth out differences from year to year\u2014so view it as an average, as opposed to one year to the other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EComing back to the earlier point, because it\u2019s linked: if it\u2019s merely upon milk production, those who export more than perhaps they might collect milk in New Zealand would be disadvantaged. So this is based upon what you export, not the amount of milk you produce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIf you come to a tariff line\u2014in this case, perhaps it could be a very special type of cheese that has special access to a market around the world and we have a quota for it\u2014actually, you could be a very large part of that export but a very small part of milk collected or production of milk within New Zealand. Therefore, the large companies that bring in a lot of milk would have a greater share of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s coming to us desiring that we want to fill these quotas, to sell them, to allow many others to share in them, particularly as they go up the value chain, with higher-value goods. Ultimately, we believe this will give all exporters a greater chance to benefit, as opposed to those who collect the most milk in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00227e986501976b47bfac06c9014a112446\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e986501976b47bfac06c9014a112446\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you for that answer, Minister. It\u2019s really helpful that you are happy to answer after each question thus far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1bd2be65c224fa3a8bdd78784568cad\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019ll stop soon, but let\u2019s have another go!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e343098be33e4141a165c72133f8f18b\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Minister, I want to talk about the bill creating a regulation-making power that enables 10\u00A0percent of export licences for a designated market listed in Schedule 5A of the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act to be reserved for exporters who would otherwise be ineligible and exporters only eligible for fewer than 200 tonnes of product. So clause\u00A07, which inserts new section\u00A026AA, in the bill states, \u201CThe Governor-General may, by Order in Council made on the recommendation of the Minister, make regulations that reserve 10\u00A0percent of export licences per quota year for any 1 or more designated markets listed in Schedule 5A if the available export licences equate to a volume of 10,000 tonnes or more of product in that designated market.\u201D I\u2019m interested to know why only 10\u00A0percent of licences are set aside\u2014why not more; why not less? How did you come to that figure, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00228d5459cfffdd4b888511b03ad6c565b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d5459cfffdd4b888511b03ad6c565b9\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you to the Minister of Agriculture for being so engaging on this particular issue. I have a question for the Minister regarding clause\u00A04, particularly subclause\u00A0(2), and I\u2019m looking at questions between the \u201Celigible participant\u201D and \u201Celigible reserve participant\u201D. I\u2019m just checking in terms of what we\u2019ve heard previously\u2014the fact that when we have our free-trade agreements or closer economic partnership agreements (CEPAs), etc., that there is a degree of flux in terms of the volume that we\u2019re able to work. I think we heard previously that, for example, if we do have an NZ-India CEPA, what does that actually mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ECan I just check, in terms of the \u201Celigible participant\u201D, whether locking us into something that equates to a volume of 20 tonnes, for example, is an appropriate mechanism, considering that\u2014is it to do with the amount that we\u2019re able to export, or is it to do with the amount we\u2019re able to produce, as the baseline for that determination? So that\u2019s one of the questions I have: whether it\u2019s better to do it as a\u00A0percentage for the quota year, or as an actual volume for that\u00A0percent a year. I just want to get some ideas behind that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI also just in general really appreciate the fact that both the Minister and also the Primary Production Committee took on board the option two and option six of the regulatory impact statement on this, particularly allowing small to medium sized entities, in this case, under option six, to have that possibility of being an eligible reserve participant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut I have a question from that in terms of the idea that it has to do with export volume history under a tariff heading. I genuinely would like to know from the Minister\u2014because I don\u2019t know this at all, and this is something that the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee has been very interested in, in terms of non-tariff barriers\u2014when we\u2019re looking at export volume history, whether the idea of the eligible participant, or eligible reserve participant in this case, will only fall under a tariff heading. Are there any sort of non-tariff, dairy kinds of export, etc., or are they all simply tariffed? In which case, if there are non-tariffed exports, how do they fit in this picture, if there are any?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo those are my two quick questions. Number one, this is clause\u00A04(2)(b), around the volume, the \u201C20 tonnes\u201D\u2014whether that is the amount to be exported or the amount that we in Aotearoa are physically able to produce, and whether a\u00A0percentage would be better. Also, are there are any other non-tariff options, and, if there are, how do they work; if there aren\u2019t, how would the export volume history work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00221a8fd5ee752544eebe1918e13b007469\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a8fd5ee752544eebe1918e13b007469\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll take these in a bit of order. Otherwise the list will be long and I might miss some of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ETo the first one around the 10\u00A0percent quota. The 10\u00A0percent is just what is deemed to be fair, meaningful enough for those who may not have access to be able to participate, should it be demonstrated that there\u2019s a need\u2014and I\u2019ll come to that in a moment\u2014but not so significant that it hampers those or holds back those that are already exporting. We don\u2019t want to say to the larger companies that are doing very well for New Zealand exporting into these areas, filling their quotas, that, actually, they should get less but, at the same time, just because they\u2019re large doesn\u2019t mean we don\u2019t want innovation and others to take part in the market through access to quota.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EFor the reserve to be set up, a number of things would have to happen before any recommendations are made. \u201CThe Minister must be satisfied that\u2014(a) there is demand for [the] reserve export licences from eligible reserve participants; and (b) there is evidence that those persons will be able to use the reserve export licences; and (c) the proposal [for the] reserve licences is consistent with any import licensing and other requirements in the designated market [they\u2019re going into];\u201D and that there is full consultation where things need to be demonstrated. So it is a situation where somebody may want to access, they can prove these things, and full proper public consultation takes place first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAround the suggestion of India and a potential comprehensive economic partnership agreement: has no impact at all, except if, in a future negotiation, we reached agreement with India or any other country where a quota for dairy exports is agreed in a trade agreement, and therefore this would need to be modified with the implementing legislation for the free-trade agreement. The same rules we\u2019re setting up here would apply. In the case of India or any other market where we\u2019re able to trade into with a trade agreement or without a trade agreement, that amount of trade is the overall amount that New Zealand exports and therefore forms the basis of how an exporter is able to work out what their access to a quota might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe member asked about whether it was a tonnage as opposed to\u00A0percentage. It actually is the same thing. If you take the total tonnage exported and your tonnage that you export and divide it, turn it into a\u00A0percentage, that\u2019s a\u00A0percentage of the quota you would be eligible to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ENo, it doesn\u2019t have any impact or effect upon non-tariff barriers. The quota is giving a lower tariff rate, from zero to something below what somebody normally would. So if we take the UK as an example, where\u2014well, actually, China is a better example, where we had tariff rates in place and they fell over time and now they\u2019ve fallen to zero. With a quota going in there, people could apply for the quota at a lower tariff rate so they pay less duty on the way in. Others could still sell into that market with a higher tariff rate outside of the free-trade agreement until the point now with China, where it\u2019s gone to zero, and so it wouldn\u2019t be necessary any more. Ultimately, what that does is it means that people are getting preferential access to a lower tariff rate, paying less duty on the way in to a country via this tariff, but if they want to sell more than that, they\u2019re able to; they just pay a higher tariff rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0b8d736f5434b239cb5e40a16d1bba2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0b8d736f5434b239cb5e40a16d1bba2\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d also like to acknowledge the Minister of Agriculture\u2019s fulsome answers. It\u2019s really helpful to have the Minister so engaged. Certainly, as the MP for Taieri, which is a mixed rural-urban area, I know that farmers in my rohe will really appreciate the cross-party collaboration on this, a consensus of the House, and also a nuanced approach to quotas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on a point made by both of my colleagues\u2014the Hon Dr Duncan Webb and the Hon Jo Luxton\u2014and also the Minister\u2019s own point about innovation, looking at the criteria that have been applied in making this determination about wanting to, I guess, assess risk. When I look at the regulatory impact statement, it talks about the options that were considered being retaining the status quo; allocating quota on the basis of export history, or production history\u2014it could be on a \u201Cfirst come, first served\u201D basis, or based on an assessment of an expression of interest, or reserving a proportion of quota for participants that are otherwise ineligible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt seems to me in that list, if you like, there is a bit of bias towards track record rather than innovation. That would seem to be fair enough, but when we consider what has also been raised in the second reading speech by my colleague the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, we\u2019re looking at new products such as goat and sheep milk. The question I have is: why have we got, in clause\u00A04, amending section\u00A05(1)(b), the average export volumes as being the only determinant, because it seems to me\u2014particularly when we also look at inclusion of all markets\u2014that if somebody was wanting to apply a traditional product and then also go into an innovative area where perhaps there is more risk, there doesn\u2019t seem to be a nuance around facilitating the innovation of that. They\u2019re going to be assessed on their track record, and there could be a disincentive to be more innovative around these new innovative products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI just wondered, in terms of both the regulatory impact statement with those criteria, were other criteria considered to give a stronger weighting towards innovation? Was there a consideration given to exporters who might have a very traditional and safe and tested track-record - type product, who would perhaps be most likely to be going into new markets with a more innovative product, because they can afford to do so? I would never expect new suppliers or producers to be able to do that. And what nuanced considerations were given to that clause? I did hear the Minister talk about the fact that there is a mitigation but I would like to understand specifically in that example how the totality of the three years track record can be weighted towards a less risk-averse regime, so that those who are genuinely wanting to expand into new markets with new products are not counted against. We definitely don\u2019t want to see a chilling of innovation through something that has been heralded across the House as a pretty good bill, thus far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022eda4f05db556426897fb3de54c515c0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eda4f05db556426897fb3de54c515c0b\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. I think, as has been said, there\u2019s widespread support for the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of questions I have for the Minister of Agriculture, through the select committee process and when it came before him\u2014some have been asked\u2014around the threshold of the 20 tonnes, or whatever it is. I just want to know about the innovative players, and if you can take a product like lactoferrin, which is worth about $1\u00A0million per tonne, compared to, say, milk powder, or whole/skim milk powder, which would probably be, I don\u2019t know, it could be $3,000 to $3,500 a tonne. There is a difference in terms of the way that is considered, and I want to know whether\u2014officials: if there is someone exporting lactoferrin and they don\u2019t necessarily have an export history, will the value of the product be considered, even though it\u2019s a very small volume compared to what might normally have been traded? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe question for the Minister is: are they going to set up a regime through regulations that protect the small-volume, high-value players\u2014and perhaps the Minister may have a view on that now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u002269a3b1927b5e4587950d41d5c0f5135b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269a3b1927b5e4587950d41d5c0f5135b\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll take a couple here because it might help with further questions. In as far as innovation is concerned, well, look, we\u2019re all in favour of that; I think everybody in the Chamber is. However, if you innovate a new product, it doesn\u2019t give you an ability to sell into a market under a quota, because a quota is based upon a product and a tariff line. So the example that the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor gave around interferon versus milk powder\u2014you can\u2019t substitute a quota for milk powder for something else. It\u2019s a tariff line. In essence, if you look at our trade agreements, if we have a quota into the United Kingdom for milk powder, it must be filled. If it\u2019s not filled, we don\u2019t sell in there at a lower tariff rate. We can\u2019t say, \u201CWell, actually, we\u2019ve decided to sell you some cheese instead of milk powder at a lower tariff rate.\u201D You can\u2019t substitute. So innovation is still possible, but it actually won\u2019t always be affected by this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ETo give you another example, and the example of other products coming in from sheep or non-bovine milk product, ultimately they\u2019re a very small part of the market. The majority of what we sell is from bovine milk and, therefore, in part, the reason\u2014so, for the first time, they are eligible for quota. In essence, if they got 5\u00A0percent of the quota overall for a product, the likelihood of being able to fill it is very, very slim, given that it is more of a niche product and they\u2019re not producing the same amount as the wider dairy industry is. We also don\u2019t want them not be able to be in that market. So, for the first time, they could get quota where it\u2019s allowed through definition. In part, that\u2019s the reason also to have the reserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EA final point on this, I suppose, is think about cheddar cheese. Cheddar cheese, under international rules, is defined as coming from buffalo or from cows, from bovine cows. So you might make a cheddar cheese from sheep, but you wouldn\u2019t be able to get access to the quota under a lower tariff rate, because it doesn\u2019t meet the definition that\u2019s agreed between those countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EOn the 20 tonnes, it\u2019s because it is one refrigerated container and there was a view that anything below one refrigerated container wouldn\u2019t be commercially viable or meaningful. But, having said that, there are opportunities, not less than that but with that reserve quota, should regulations be set in the future, to ensure that those who want to innovate and can have access, particularly up the value chain, will have the ability to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00229b7bdb0bdb07491d9a24f59962a663e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b7bdb0bdb07491d9a24f59962a663e6\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and, again, thank you, Minister McClay, for the very comprehensive answer. I just want to pick up something the Minister of Agriculture said before in terms of having no substitutes. Can I check? I understand what the Minister is saying in terms of having no substitutes when it comes to milk powder versus\u2014you know, you can\u2019t substitute part of that with cheese, etc. But I just wanted to know in terms of clause\u00A05\u2014and I know that the Minister mentioned non-bovine dairy. But can I just check for clarity: if someone has non-bovine dairy, would they be able to match\u2014for example, when we\u2019re looking at the eligible participant, we\u2019re looking at two separate issues. But when we\u2019re looking at non-bovine dairy producers, or if someone\u2019s got a mix, are they able to supplement, let\u2019s say, that 20-tonne eligibility participant requirement with, let\u2019s say, 19 tonnes of bovine dairy and 1 tonne of non-bovine dairy? Are they able to mix, in that case, if they have a mix\u2014oh, I\u2019m seeing nods from the officials. Yep, great\u2014that\u2019s really clear. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe other question I have is just following up from what, previously, the Hon Jo Luxton was asking regarding this new section\u00A026AA, inserted by clause\u00A07, around reserve export licences. I know that the Minister gave quite a nice and wholesome answer around what the Minister would need to consider in order to reserve that 10\u00A0percent of export licences, but can I just check: does the Minister have any idea in terms of how often he anticipates that that is something that might actually happen? Do you anticipate this happening with additional markets that have been opened to us? So, yeah, just mainly a question around the frequency of that particular Order in Council being made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac179d4ee6624ae7a4eeb166d6fbc498\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac179d4ee6624ae7a4eeb166d6fbc498\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s a perfect segue from my colleague there with regard to section\u00A026AA, where the Minister of Agriculture talked before about making a recommendation with regard to export licence, and he listed off all the criteria that the Minister must be satisfied are in place before undertaking that. My question to him, and it\u2019s just a quick question, is: how is the Minister going to ensure that all of these things are in place before making the recommendations? What will the processes and assurances be in order to make sure that everything is in place before making the recommendation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc7bef1f920f41be9038f6f6f0ca0a48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc7bef1f920f41be9038f6f6f0ca0a48\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Look, thank you very much, Mr Chairman. I appreciate the Minister of Agriculture\u2019s explanation before. I guess lactoferrin will come under a protein tariff line, understanding that the tariff lines are quite technically difficult. The point I was trying to make is that we are still using a rather crude 20 tonne\u2014so it\u2019s a volumetric measure of what might be able to have access to quota, even if it is under the appropriate tariff line. I\u2019ll raise that point, and the Minister might be able to refer to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe second point I\u2019d like to make is that if Fonterra proceeds with its sale of consumer brands and those products are made from New Zealand milk, does the right of access to quota automatically go to the purchaser of that Fonterra sale, or will there be a need for some legislative change, given they will have no history of export, or it might not, depending on who the company is? Just to ensure that we do everything we can to protect the value for New Zealanders rather than selling off something that, again, it\u2019s been negotiated through trade agreements, it\u2019s legislatively protected, legally protected by Parliament, but could be flicked off depending on what the Fonterra farmers decide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022842ea7fc485f4a48ad8effcae03c1c7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022842ea7fc485f4a48ad8effcae03c1c7d\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll take the final question first and then come to the other. So any dairy exporter who sells a part of their business\u2014the new owner of that business would be the same as a brand-new start-up, and they would need to work through the three-year history before they have access to any quota, although recognising if there was a reserve set up, perhaps they would have eligibility to that, depending upon what the criteria had been set at, should there be a regulation in place. So I guess that means that the best way to explain it is that any eligibility for quota is non-transferable; it remains with you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIt comes back to the other reason for that three-year rolling average. What we\u2019re trying to do is make sure that quotas are filled and the product gets to the market, and that the New Zealand dairy farmer or the New Zealand economy benefits fully from this. There are occasions when that hasn\u2019t been the case in the past, and therefore if, for any reason over the three years, you have exported less than your quota\u2014in some cases, it could be significantly less\u2014you therefore no longer have eligibility for the same amount in the future, because someone else has not been able to fill that as you\u2019ve held it, and therefore we want the quota to be filled fully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAs far as criteria around setting up reserve licences and issuing them, it\u2019s very similar to what I said earlier. The only additional piece of information I might offer members is it has to be full consultation around that, and the consultation undertaken with the current holders of export licences, and ascertain historical utilisation of their export licences, and ascertain the potential impact that a reserve export licence will have on their businesses, and ascertain their view on the creation of a reserve portion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESo, ultimately, there will be a number of instances, perhaps, where this would make sense. It would be beneficial. It will help those who are not able to export to do so\u2014in turn, there is a greater return for the New Zealand dairy farmer. This is set out so we can take account of that, but no decision has been made, at this stage, about whether it might or might not be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002265885aeedde949bfa04172e01da9059e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265885aeedde949bfa04172e01da9059e\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Look, carrying on in Part 1\u2014and I thank the Minister of Agriculture for his explanation\u2014another area of some concern is the quota compliance programmes. Reading through here, and maybe the Minister can explain, it says that if someone has not complied or not obtained a compliance licence, then they can just, as I understand it, through a statutory declaration, explain why they haven\u2019t got one. I guess the question is: given the importance of the dairy industry to our country and of these quotas to our country, then for anyone who is non-compliant in any way or attempts to bypass this piece of legislation and the flexibility that we\u2019re putting in place here, is it good enough that a statutory declaration from them explaining themselves is of sufficient legal credibility, or, indeed, do we need to have a stronger compliance regime in that area? I\u2019ll leave that with the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u00225d35cd4217534e76977fdbb227b252f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d35cd4217534e76977fdbb227b252f6\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dff1e4e902bb4d57a46cdb9ed66531a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dff1e4e902bb4d57a46cdb9ed66531a3\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Having just joined the debate and going through the regulatory impact statement, which is dated 25 August 2023, it was obviously conducted under the previous Government\u2014as many members have alluded to\u2014under the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019m going through the regulatory impact statement and it does apply to Part 1, it\u2019s around section\u00A03 of the regulatory impact statement, \u201CDelivering an option\u201D, and \u201CHow will the new arrangements be implemented?\u201D It talks about the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) systems and processes that would need to be worked with: \u201CMPI anticipates that there will be an increase in the number of participants applying to the dairy export quota.\u201D That was based off results of their formal public consultation and the feedback that they received during that targeted engagement from currently ineligible exporters which expressed an interest in access to the dairy export quota.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement continues to say, \u201CSome minor changes to the allocation process will be required as a result of the changes.\u201D Then it continues that \u201CThe cost of administering the quota allocation system is recovered from participants.\u201D However, they also have a particular paragraph around the impact on Customs, and in it, if I quote the regulatory impact statement, \u201CCustoms has advised that additional administrative costs associated with data sharing will be low and can be managed within current resources.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s quite a simple question to the Minister of Agriculture: that advice that was received by officials dated 25 August 2023, does that still apply, given the Government has gone through cuts trying to find savings within different Government departments? Has he received advice around the impact on Customs in relation to the roll-out of the options which are covered within Part 1; if so, what has that advice said, and will Customs be seeking additional funding in order for them to, basically, manage the new implementation of this policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce2aba2e0d0c4fd2acf800e2ff7459ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce2aba2e0d0c4fd2acf800e2ff7459ad\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you. In as far as the example that the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor has given, even though a statutory declaration is given, a licence would automatically be declined, although the Minister would have a discretion to decide otherwise, should there be reasons to. So, no, it doesn\u2019t mean that it happens, and, of course, where somebody gives a statutory declaration and it\u2019s wrong and they know that it\u2019s wrong, we actually have rules elsewhere and statutes to deal with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIn as far as the question about the advice given from Customs , actually, there have not been cuts to the front line. In fact, we\u2019ve ensured that the front line, from Customs to those who work very hard in the front line in the Ministry for Primary Industries, actually continue to do their job, and they\u2019re hard-working New Zealanders that do an even better job as a result of many of the changes and support that we\u2019ve given them. So, actually, the point that I\u2019ve made is that they don\u2019t need additional resource and they can manage the slight changes in the exchange of data. As a result of this, it remains the case, because there have not been cuts to the front line, but, equally, they are already providing data as a result of an older quota regime. This is updating it and it\u2019s modernising it. There are a few more countries that they engage with, as they do with everything. So the advice that I have received is that they\u2019re able to do that within their current budget lines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00229116d9eec5c04646a3c3a8cc6d7670d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229116d9eec5c04646a3c3a8cc6d7670d5\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to first pick up on the response that the Minister of Agriculture gave before in the questions around clause\u00A08 of the bill around the quota compliance programme. Can I just check if my understanding is correct? What the Minister is saying is that the quota are not transferrable, which means that if they are selling a company, let\u2019s say to someone else, that quota doesn\u2019t naturally go through to the new company because it\u2019s not transferable, which means that that then would presumably go back into the pool of quotas that then other people could bid on or potentially the new company could bid on. So I just want to get clarification around the transferability of quota, because, again, this might be something that\u2019s quite a hot topic right now, particularly pertaining to Anchor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo the other questions I have in terms of this is they are more kind of getting a few examples from the Minister in terms of what would be some of the options. For example, in clause\u00A08, inserting new section\u00A027, we\u2019re looking at new subsection\u00A0(3)(c)(ii), where it says, \u201Cfor any other reason \u2026 the Minister is satisfied\u201D. I was wondering if the Minister could provide an example of what some other reasons are where the Minister could be satisfied explaining the participant\u2019s failure to obtain a quota compliance programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAlong the same vein, for subsection\u00A0(4), it says that \u201CThe Minister must provide written notice to the participant of their decision\u201D, which is understandable, but it says, \u201Cwithin a reasonable time frame\u201D, as opposed to giving a specific time frame. In which case, I would also be interested to know from the Minister on what is considered reasonable and whether they are tied to how the allocation is made in the Gazette under clause\u00A06 of Schedule 5B. So those are my two questions around clause\u00A08, around the quota compliance programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut since we\u2019re talking about the Schedule, which is clause\u00A09 of Part 1 of the bill. For Schedule 5B, I am looking at clause\u00A02(4) of Schedule 5B around allocations. I guess the first question I have, which is really interesting in terms of the example, is that if an eligible participant is eligible for 30 tonnes, but then they have excess produce, and then there is additional in terms of the reserve portion, they can add it up into an additional 170 tonnes and equate up to 200, which, I think, if my understanding\u2019s correct, that\u2019s actually a really cool thing to do. But I wanted to check how then would the reserve amount of 200 tonnes or the making up of that 200 tonnes under the eligible reserve participant be distributed across; as in, are they done as a proportion of their eligible participant amount, or they are done as in with any other kind of formula? So I would really like to know: how would people make up that additional amount if it is based off the reserve amount? So those are my three questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u0022781406709191442c9ffaaf6095bee733\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022781406709191442c9ffaaf6095bee733\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022edb8875b91eb4d2daca2680e2fe84891\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edb8875b91eb4d2daca2680e2fe84891\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to also ask a question with regard to the quota compliance programme. The Hon Damien O\u2019Connor asked questions with regard to statutory declarations, and other members have pointed out the things that Minister must take into consideration and be satisfied that the participant has, for whatever reason, failed to obtain a quota compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister of Agriculture is: Minister, you mentioned before about allocation being declined, but if someone knowingly and falsely makes a declaration, will there be any penalties for that person? For example, will they be banned from making applications for allocations in the future or will they just be banned full stop and not ever have the option? Will there be a stand-down period for people that do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EAlso, following on from that, I note that when we heard submissions from Open Country Dairy, they raised concerns around changes to allocation of export licences outside the reserved quota portion, that it created avenue for gaming the allocation system. The advice that we received was that quota markets are a small part of overall New Zealand dairy exports, and exporting products at a loss to obtain a share of what are relatively small markets for New Zealand seems unlikely\u2014but \u201Cseems unlikely\u201D is not \u201Cdefinitive\u201D. So is there still going to be the ability for this to be gamed in any way? I\u2019m interested to hear the Minister\u2019s answers to those questions, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u0022de6c0eae367248dd9359e0556d08cba7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de6c0eae367248dd9359e0556d08cba7\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair, otir\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Minita. We\u2019ve heard k\u014Drero about quotas, etc., and I\u2019ve mentioned the M\u0101ori economy and the appeal that the M\u0101ori economy is having internationally, but, by virtue of size, sometimes even M\u0101ori co-ops can be considered small and emerging. So my question to the Minister is: will there be an allowance or quota set aside for M\u0101ori business?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2b1e2dc204e43f39c36dea8c921ab86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2b1e2dc204e43f39c36dea8c921ab86\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00223f191b25acb74695b5cc60abfb3f937a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f191b25acb74695b5cc60abfb3f937a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m looking for new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022b97a502679df4752abb870edd9c84ff3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b97a502679df4752abb870edd9c84ff3\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just have a really simple question because I\u2019m still waiting for a response to my previous three questions from the Minister of Agriculture. My question is to do with section\u00A04(4) of replacement Schedule 5B, inserted by the Schedule. I also want to get clarity. It says, \u201CExport licences may only be used for products for which the dairy components are derived only from New Zealand origin milk.\u201D But, as we know, there are processing centres of milk and milk powders in other countries that we have, such as Malaysia, for example. But what happens if they use a mixture of New Zealand origin milk and milk from [Interruption]\u2014that doesn\u2019t happen? OK. In which case, that answers my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u00229130092608e84c4e983c47ca0264932b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229130092608e84c4e983c47ca0264932b\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002241f8a10385404992a74088c21061c086\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001284\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad04186d4cfd453badf3a71be845d9de\u0022\u003EPart 2  Miscellaneous amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022800da19fabb94fbcbade9d532c59922d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022800da19fabb94fbcbade9d532c59922d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 10 to 16\u2014\u201CMiscellaneous amendments\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00222571b472a33c48819e77fe7f3d2a1e55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222571b472a33c48819e77fe7f3d2a1e55\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I am looking forward to, hopefully, the Minister answering my previous questions, but perhaps he\u2019s getting some more advice or thinking about it a bit more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI have a question that follows on\u2014that is a little bit similar but also different to the one I asked with regards to false declarations and things like that. I noticed that in clause\u00A014, \u201CSection\u00A031 amended (Offences),\u201D that \u201CIn section\u00A031(3), replace \u2018and is liable for the following, who provides a false declaration in relation to milk solids collection data contrary to\u2019 with \u2018and is liable on conviction for the following, who provides a false declaration in relation to the information or documents required under\u2019\u201D; (2) In section\u00A031(3)(b), delete \u2018or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 3 months, or both\u2019 \u201D. So I\u2019m pleased to see that imprisonment as a penalty for providing false information is going to be removed, or is removed. However, what penalties will exist for providing false information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9857934aeda489484f542ff2fdbfecd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9857934aeda489484f542ff2fdbfecd\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have a question for the Minister regarding clause\u00A015, \u201CSection\u00A042 replaced (Disclosure of information)\u201D, under Part 2, and I\u2019m specifically looking at new section\u00A042(2)(c). Understanding that we\u2019re looking at providing some framework around the disclosure of information, particularly the sharing of information between the Minister and the New Zealand Customs Service, I am very interested in paragraph (c) when it talks about \u201Cto allow the Minister to decide whether to recommend the making of secondary legislation under this subpart.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENormally, when we\u2019re looking at secondary legislation - making powers, there are certain criteria in place to ensure that that secondary legislation isn\u2019t going to be ultra vires. However, what I\u2019m not seeing under this are the boundaries and the framework for such secondary legislation. So my question to the Minister is: can I make an assumption, or is this assumption correct, that the recommendation of making the secondary legislation under this Subpart is on the basis of the information that is provided under subsection\u00A0(2)(a) and (b) of new section\u00A042, because otherwise, I think there is going to be a broader issue of how broad this secondary legislation is going to be if it doesn\u2019t have some sort of confines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00224354a780480d463d9a55aaef748cbfbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224354a780480d463d9a55aaef748cbfbc\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Just on these two points. In respect of the Hon Jo Luxton\u2019s questions around offences for providing false or untruthful information, the member is right that it is no longer an imprisonable offence. This brings the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act into step with current legislative practices, which require a strong rationale for using imprisonment penalties where there\u2019s a strict liability offence. In this case, it goes to a fine, and a fine of up to $200,000 is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EFor the Green member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, who has just raised questions, indeed he is correct that it is largely around the sharing of information. The section does a number of things. It allows information to be shared between the Ministry for Primary Industries and the Customs Service to ensure that they have adequate information when it comes to deciding upon setting that special criteria\u2014so to be able to check whether exports have taken place and volumes, and so on. The rest of that section is around only having access to information that they require as necessary, and data protection, so that they can\u2019t get information that is not needed when it comes to deciding whether or not a special quota might be set.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2a0e5612a474d4d9cdfa469f5752f4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2a0e5612a474d4d9cdfa469f5752f4a\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I have a question with regard to a disclosure of information and new section\u00A042(4) in clause\u00A015. Obviously, we\u2019ve talked about the Customs Service being able to collect information with regard to export volume, etc., etc. But subsection\u00A0(4) says, \u201CThe Ministry and the New Zealand Customs Service must ensure that appropriate protections are or will be in place to maintain the confidentiality of information shared under this section.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWhat is deemed appropriate and how can we be sure that this information would be kept confidential, and what is the risk of this information accidentally being shared\u2014so how can we ensure, and what are the appropriate protections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002299984803552c402a9f74cc259ee185f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299984803552c402a9f74cc259ee185f8\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. I just follow on with that area of the interface between Customs and the Ministry for Primary Industries, of course, or New Zealand Food Safety. I knows there\u2019s been a bit of pressure on some of the systems. For all Government agencies, I just need to have assurance from the Minister that in dealing with lots of white powders that generally make up milk, the Customs service will be able to distinguish between one lot of white powder and other white powders, because I\u2019d hate to see a mix-up somewhere along the line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2105011d6a54f4e90e12129f9c085c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2105011d6a54f4e90e12129f9c085c1\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E You were saying you wanted to go up the value chain! I think we\u2019re at risk of running out of questions unless I deal with that last one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI mean, our New Zealand Customs Service is very, very professional. Indeed, they take their responsibility seriously: both product going out, I suppose, as well as stopping product coming in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EBut in this case, when it comes to privacy, there are already a number of procedures in place across Government agencies, and Government ministries take it extremely seriously. There are laws in place around privacy and the protection of private data. New section\u00A042(2) in clause\u00A015 merely allows them to share information where there is a reason to do so, and it instructs them through legislation to make sure that there are adequate provisions to keep confidentiality. They will take this seriously, as all ministries have, and of course we have the Privacy Commissioner to ensure that they\u2019re doing their job properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00228910083246134db49b39f3882d858c0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228910083246134db49b39f3882d858c0d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come to the Schedule. The question is that the Schedule stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002294a819fab7114a2e975b818d769380b3\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b473525172ce45fdbd9d0ddc14709afa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b473525172ce45fdbd9d0ddc14709afa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to our final debate, which is clauses 1 to 3. This is the debate on clauses 1 to 3, \u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D. The question is that clause\u00A01 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00228647c265c01c42a9ac4b83d7507bb07e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228647c265c01c42a9ac4b83d7507bb07e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry, can I first get a clarification from you, Madam Chair? Did you say clause\u00A01 only or is it clauses 1 to 3?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022939eb5e312a8498096a8d01f051787da\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Clauses 1 to 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e59f76cb49247db801d940d7c1e6779\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: It is 1 to 3. OK, cool. I actually have a question for the Minister of Agriculture around clause\u00A02 with the commencement date. Again, pardon my ignorance if there\u2019s a specific significance of this date. But, normally, we do see that either the Act comes into force the day after Royal assent or the day of Royal assent or, potentially, within a three-month period, etc. I want to check with the Minister if there is any significance, Minister, to the date of 1 May. Is it to do with the way that certain allocations of the dairy industry work? Is it to do with a standard day for exports? I\u2019m just curious about the date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00224cca13d8b87f486bbf8d417486b495b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cca13d8b87f486bbf8d417486b495b5\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the 1 May date\u2019s a date of celebration, particularly for our dairy farmers. But in this case it gives the Ministry for Primary Industries enough time to make sure the procedure is in place and they will be setting allocation for the following calendar year\u2014so if the allocation would be available for the 2026 to 2027 calendar year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00224a6aac6d62df47c8bd5bb435b15e8b4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a6aac6d62df47c8bd5bb435b15e8b4e\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is also with regards to the commencement date. We had a submitter that suggested perhaps that changes that have been proposed in this bill take effect and shouldn\u2019t be implemented for five to 10 years. I\u2019m interested to understand the Minister of Agriculture\u2019s reason for not implementing it in five or 10 years, why implementing it straight away, why get it implemented this quickly for the beginning of the dairy season. Was there any reason for that and not holding off for a year, two, five, or 10?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022f03a1b54d0e34a9893553837e3fe48a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f03a1b54d0e34a9893553837e3fe48a3\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Well, I guess the point here is that we\u2019re making the changes to make it fairer so the full quota allocation is utilised, and there will be those there who haven\u2019t got the access they would want to the quota; they\u2019re already exporting, although they may not collect as much milk and therefore to level and balance the system. So if we are accepting across the committee, as we\u2019re all supporting this legislation, that this is a good idea, that I\u2019m suggesting that every year delayed is a missed opportunity for some of those exporters, and we are able to implement it quickly, properly, so that the benefits of this legislation that are widely supported are accrued and delivered from the beginning of next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EClause\u00A01 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EClause\u00A02 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EClause\u00A03 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00228ccb9f6e21f642de87c01feda8eca8ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ccb9f6e21f642de87c01feda8eca8ec\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022041f67d06f804984b08f8659d39e0b13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022041f67d06f804984b08f8659d39e0b13\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220075522727ba4999b267cc42eb2eb5a3\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022a009b572f6f04a528aa42d95fb550958\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a009b572f6f04a528aa42d95fb550958\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, I present to the House a legislative statement on the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268e6f7a5d73b49ecabcc0a3abb8e0265\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a8c9578d6864765b57ad759a129fc91\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe bill proposes changes to the export quota system that include shifting quota allocation from the proportion of milk solids a company collects from farmers to a system based on their export history. The new system will better reflect the diversity of the dairy industry. It will support businesses of all sizes, stimulating innovation and encouraging value-add to New Zealand dairy products and our exports. The bill will also help to maximise the value of dairy export quota administered by New Zealand for the following countries: the United Kingdom, the European Union, Japan, the United States, and the Dominican Republic. This directly supports the Government\u2019s ambitious trade agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pleased to bring this bill back to the House today. Passing this bill is an important step forward towards ensuring the continued success of the New Zealand dairy industry, which is a key driver of New Zealand\u2019s economic growth and prosperity. The bill was introduced in October 2024 and considered by the Primary Production Committee, which reported back recently. I\u2019d like to emphasise that during the public consultation in the select committee processes, we listened to dairy processors, dairy exporters, and other stakeholders across the sector to ensure that their concerns and feedback were considered. This has led to a bill that strikes the right balance between widening quota access to a more diverse group of exporters and maintaining quota access for our more established players. In addition, the changes in the bill following the select committee process will ensure that the new dairy quota allocation system is fair and provides the certainty that businesses need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge the support we have had from all sides of the House and all parties from across the aisle for the bill through the legislative process. The bill is a clear example of the Government\u2019s commitment to supporting the dairy sector to succeed. Importantly, it supports the Government\u2019s goal of doubling the value of exports within 10 years and delivering economic growth for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to thank the hard-working farmers of New Zealand and the dairy farmers who get up every day and work hard on our behalf. They are, without doubt, the best farmers in the world. They produce the highest-quality, safest dairy products that the world wants and consumers are willing to pay more for. We\u2019re very proud of them. We\u2019re very grateful for what they do. As the economy improves and fixes itself, it is, of course, dairy and meat and fruit and others in the primary sector that are leading that charge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EFinally, can I thank all members of the House and all parties for their support through this legislation\u2014a clear demonstration that every single one of them supports our dairy farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00227ecf7a4a64774ddabdc34ea301dbba25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ecf7a4a64774ddabdc34ea301dbba25\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this, the third reading of the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill. I, too, would also like to acknowledge all the hard-working dairy farmers across the country in New Zealand, one of whom is my son, who gets up also very early in the morning to milk the cows, and who had a very special day and got married just this past weekend. It was a lovely occasion, and he was very lucky that he had wonderful, understanding staff who took over and milked the cows for him in the weekend so that he didn\u2019t have to, because he had more important things to do, such as getting married.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge not just the dairy farmers out there, but all those farmers out there at the moment who are experiencing the hardships that drought across the country is causing them all. It is a really stressful time for our farmers who are experiencing those conditions. I hope that they are talking to each other, talking to their friends, getting the support that they need and realising that we are here in the House passing a piece of legislation that shows them that, right across this House, we back them and we support them by passing this in the third reading tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI also again want to acknowledge my colleagues on the Primary Production Committee. The process that we went through for the bill to reach the state that it is in tonight was a really collegial one, a really hard-working one. Lots of questions were asked of the officials, and they were really good questions, and we had some really great conversations throughout the process. I want to acknowledge my colleague the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, who began the process of bringing this piece of legislation to the House, and also to the current Minister of Agriculture, who has now shepherded it to this, the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EAs the Minister mentioned, this bill strikes the right balance, and we also agree that it does on this side of the House, and we show that by getting in and supporting this piece of legislation by making just the couple of changes that we\u2019ve talked about. I want to acknowledge and thank the Minister for his interactions during the committee stage this evening. It was great to get really fulsome answers and explanations from him throughout that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI think this piece of legislation is going to allow new players and different business types into the industry. It\u2019s going to mean with new players that come into the industry\u2014those like Spring Sheep Milk Company, Dairy Goat Co-operative, Lewis Road Creamery, all of those from the sector who haven\u2019t perhaps been able to participate or be allocated quota before. It\u2019s going to give them the opportunity to participate now, therefore also leading to doubling export value as is the goal of not only this current Government but also us here on this side of the House. We also want to see our primary sector absolutely thrive and do well, because we do acknowledge, on this side of the House, too, that our agricultural sector is also the backbone of the New Zealand economy. And without them, things would be very, very grim indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s really important that we continue to be able to evolve pieces of legislation that do allow us to be a bit nimble and recognise when things change within sectors and businesses, and that we can recognise those that haven\u2019t had opportunities before. And, as I said in my speech earlier this evening, this piece of legislation doesn\u2019t just simply make changes to the quota allocations; it gives certainty to the sector. It gives certainty to the smaller players within the agricultural sector to look to invest. It creates jobs. And on this side of the House, we are very supportive of anything that does anything to increase job opportunities and job prospects for people right across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s particularly good to see some of our younger people\u2014those that are in school currently\u2014move into the ag sector, the primary sector, because it\u2019s such a great career opportunity. And anything that we can do to provide opportunities, access, and reduce barriers to getting our young people into these sectors has got to be worthwhile.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThis is also about providing fairness and providing fairness to those who haven\u2019t been able to participate prior to this piece of legislation coming in. I think it\u2019s really important that the legislation has been able to, as I said before, be a bit nimble and change as things change in different business models with regard to including non-bovine dairy. And we know, in this day and age, there\u2019s lots and lots of people out there who\u2019ve got different allergies to this, that, and the other thing, and this means that people can grow their businesses with regard to goat milk, sheep milk, as we heard one of our colleagues earlier this evening has experienced, I think was it goat milking or sheep milking\u2014one or the other, something like that, something that hasn\u2019t been that common in years gone by. And I think this piece of legislation is going to really encourage that different innovative thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EAs I said in my speech earlier this evening, New Zealand is a country of innovators. It\u2019s a country of entrepreneurs. It\u2019s that number eight wire thinking. And this piece of legislation is only going to enhance and encourage that type of thinking, that type of behaviour. It\u2019s going to mean great things for our sector, our dairy export sector, our non-bovine dairy export sector, and it\u2019s going to ensure that the value of our primary sector exports increases and doubles just as we would like to see. So thank you, Madam Speaker. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00222c3ed83425164f868708d08863092656\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c3ed83425164f868708d08863092656\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Minister of Agriculture made a point towards the end of his speech just now where he said that New Zealand farmers produce the highest-quality, safest product in the world, and the world is willing to pay more for that product.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, what I think we are finding ourselves in agreement on across the House tonight is the value of that reputation, which allows our exporters to sell product around the world. I really want us to acknowledge that this legislation affects that reputation and upholds that vision and that value proposition\u2014which is also to do, I would say, with a principle of sustainability and the reputation for producing not only a safe and a high-quality product but a natural product.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThis draws into starker relief, in the context of this bill, the Government\u2019s programme of legislation that affects the primary production sector. A couple of other things that have been raised this evening, one from our colleague in the New Zealand First Party, Associate Minister Mark Patterson, who pointed out his concerns about the sale of those iconic New Zealand brands. Now, where we acknowledge the value-add that we are trying to facilitate by this amendment that allows new players into the marketplace, that allows new kinds of non-bovine dairy milk into the marketplace\u2014deer milk or sheep milk\u2014the core underpinning that idea is that there are new, valuable brands to be created and products to be created and innovations to be achieved in this space, and this legislation facilitates it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EBut is there not a contradiction\u2014as the honourable member opposite highlights\u2014with us allowing those hard-fought, long, many years\u2019 built-up brands like the Anchor brand to be sold off by Fonterra? I am one who also believes that is something that we, as a Parliament, should be more intently scrutinising. What is the logic of us saying that we believe in value-added product and yet we are selling those valuable brands? There are not that many very globally reputable New Zealand products in the world, but one of those classics is surely the Anchor brand. How readily are we as a nation going to be able to create an equivalent of that? And should we not be giving more scrutiny to it being sold off by Fonterra? I agree with the member opposite, the Associate Minister, that that is something that should be of concern to this House. It\u2019s certainly of concern to the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe other thing that seems inconsistent with that well-articulated principle of the value proposition that we are trying to achieve, and facilitating greater diversity in the dairy quota allocation, is the Gene Technology Bill. It was very clearly, and has been very clearly, communicated to us in the hearings on that bill that the primary production sector is very concerned about the trade and market access risk impacts of that legislation. They\u2019re concerned about the practical impacts of it on how we are perceived overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EGiven our dependence on a multitude of markets for 95\u00A0percent of our dairy product\u2014and 95\u00A0percent of other sectors as well\u2014what is the risk of reputational harm in any degree to which we feed into overseas customers\u2019 or consumers\u2019 concerns about GMOs? It seems to me a legitimate question for us to be considering in this House as to the consistency of the suite of legislative strategies coming from the Government that affect the primary production sector. This is one today that we agree with, but those others are ones that we should be calling into question. I hope that we, as a House, are able to call those into question. Because surely what it is that we are doing today is agreeing that our reputation is hugely valuable, and agreeing that access to export markets is hugely valuable, and indeed why the ability to allocate quota more widely is a thing that is a great prize for smaller businesses that currently don\u2019t have access to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EGiven we accept that value of that reputation, we should be sincerely cautious about harming that reputation with a piece of legislation that is coming up to this House that may risk it through somewhat \u201Cas fools rush in where angels fear to tread\u201D, risking our reputation on products that we know consumers in multiple markets are not comfortable with consuming: genetically modified organisms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThis legislation before us, though\u2014I\u2019ll bring us back to it\u2014is an example of what is possible when we do our darndest to find agreement across the diverse political persuasions that are present in the House. It was an enjoyable experience to sit in the Primary Production Committee and work through the different contexts of this bill, to ask a number of questions about the structuring of it. I really want to acknowledge the officials who assisted us in that process, and the thoroughness with which they considered the context of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe decision to not accept the petition of Fonterra that would have gone to maintain the dominance that they currently have\u2014in fact, it would contradict the intention of this bill, which is to spread the opportunity across more businesses. So we as a committee unanimously agreed that we would not accept that petition of Fonterra, that submission of Fonterra.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThat is a good example of what is possible, where we come from a starting point of sharing a principle of values that are unanimous\u2014I would say\u2014in the House that we do want to see New Zealand do well, and we want to see New Zealand do well in a context that upholds the integrity of our diversity, the integrity of our environment, the integrity of our reputation, and that is a thing that we can agree on across the House. The devil may be in the detail, indeed, but I do think that this particular bill is an example of what we should be trying to achieve on a number of pieces of legislation because, frankly, industry does not need the flip-flop of change of Governments\u2014and we know this Government\u2019s going to be gone in 18 months. But the industry wants\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9fc4347768e4367a7f45cc892dbf848\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: You were going so well!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287f77e6c822344079d1677a207bbe9dd\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I couldn\u2019t resist. You were getting so quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EBut industry wants certainty, and this is to the point: across Governments, industry wants certainty. This is an instance where the industry can be sure this piece of legislation is going to stay in place. We should be trying to achieve that across other pieces of legislation for the good of the trajectory of the country; for the good of the trajectory of industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI would urge the Government to consider what is possible when the Government members and the Ministers are willing to open their hearts\u2014for want of a better word\u2014to the possibility of finding agreement and consensus across the House, because that will put in place legislation that\u2019s good for everybody. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd0b7e8a51a84af0857cf497f9f5cfbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd0b7e8a51a84af0857cf497f9f5cfbb\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise in support of the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill. It\u2019s been really pleasant, actually, to be sitting here listening to a whole range of people across the House talking about how important and great the dairy industry is. Probably the only downside is that myself and Grant McCallum are the only dairy farmers awake to hear it, so thank you very much for all your kind words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EI would just say to the previous speaker, Steve Abel, that if he wishes to have a say in the Fonterra brands sales, there are plenty of dairy farms on the market right now. Buy one, then you get a say and you can tell us how to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003ELook, I spoke on the first reading of this bill, so I\u2019ll try not to repeat myself, but basically this is a good bill that introduces a new range of innovative ways of ensuring that our export allocation, our quota, is distributed fairly. That will encourage better export returns and more innovation in the sector. I\u2019ve been part of the dairy industry for the life of the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act, and it\u2019s been a continual evolution and it\u2019s been an important evolution that\u2019s shown the maturity of the dairy sector over that time as we\u2019ve moved forward currently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill. It means we\u2019ll be picking up on export opportunities where we may have previously missed out. It will widen the quota access to a lot more diverse group of exporters while also maintaining that quota access for our more established players. I\u2019ll offer some support for the Minister of Agriculture and the changes he\u2019s made to the bill. I think this will improve it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EIn closing, the Government\u2019s got a goal to double the value of our exports. We\u2019re committed to growing the industry. I believe this bill will help us achieve that and I look forward to the passage of this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022f68c22b1f01847ca8667beea399a902f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f68c22b1f01847ca8667beea399a902f\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to rise on behalf of New Zealand First for this Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill. In short, this is a good bill, and that\u2019s fundamentally why New Zealand First will be supporting it and why it has received wide acclaim across the House. It does open access and ability for smaller, niche companies to get into export markets and to build brands in a more value-added capacity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EIt strikes a very good balance. I think the Minister of Agriculture explained in the committee of the whole House how they landed at that 10\u00A0percent allocation in terms of quota that was coming into this pool, that it struck the balance between encouraging new entrants but also protecting existing rights somewhat to exporters that were already utilising this quota and doing it well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI do want to pick up on the debate that has sort of emerged a little bit in this reading, because we are missing the wood for the trees. The bigger issue is what Fonterra do with these already established brands. We\u2019re talking, within this bill, of creating maybe new value-added companies or the next Tatua Dairy Company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EFonterra was created as an Act of Parliament. They were allowed to go around the Commerce Commission, and the decision does sit with the farmers, but it would not have hurt this Parliament and the select committees that I wrote to to examine this decision by their board, hold them to account, and to actually help those farmers, in an independent forum, to make an informed decision. This is a very big decision, selling off brands that are generational at a time where precision fermentation\u2019s coming along that could disrupt the ingredients part of the business. It breaks the direct line to the consumer that they now have with those brands and with the natural milk products that their farmers are so good at producing. So I think that\u2019s a missed opportunity, and I\u2019ve got that on the record, and it seems like Mr Abel and the Green Party support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EThe dairy industry is hugely important to this country and it\u2019s important we get pieces of legislation like this right. Jo Luxton, I think, in her presentation, did talk about the droughts around large parts of the country. Northland, Manawat\u016B, Taranaki, and the top of the South Island are officially in medium-scale adverse events at the moment. I know those farmers are doing it pretty tough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI was actually up in Taranaki last week visiting some of those farmers. It was a fantastic do at the Warea Heifer Park. Actually, it was really heartwarming\u2014rural community at its best. I\u2019m sure the member for New Plymouth here, David MacLeod, knows it well, but it was a great story of why it was called the heifer park, because it\u2019s actually a bowling green, but the young fella that mowed the green left the gate open and the heifers got in and destroyed the bowling green, so it\u2019s now called the heifer park. But it was great and uplifting and it just showed the community, heavily dairy-dependent, coming together to support each other through hard times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EEssentially, this bill, though, is a small part of a bigger strategic play to double our exports. These are the sorts of things that Governments can do to help foster innovation and brand development. It\u2019s a small piece of a much bigger piece of work\u2014things like enabling more water storage and irrigation, Resource Management Act reform, science, innovation, and genetics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESteve Abel touched on, when talking about genetics, the debate that we\u2019re having now about genetically modified organisms. That is an important piece of legislation coming before this House, and this House had better be taking notice of that select committee report, because there\u2019s been some very important points made in that report that we need to take very seriously. This is a Rubicon that we\u2019re talking about jumping, and we should not take that lightly, but that will be a debate for another day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EAt this stage, we are here to support this Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill. I would like to commend the Minister, the Hon Todd McClay, who has brought it through, and the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, who started this under the previous Government. As I recall from my days, it sounds like the Primary Production Committee continues to be a committee that works collegially for the good of agriculture, the primary sector, and rural New Zealand. So with that, we support the bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022588886f0c2304e2c9470954de12ea5ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022588886f0c2304e2c9470954de12ea5ca\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D te w\u0101 tuarua i te p\u014D nei, ki te w\u0101hanga tuatoru o t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire. Tautoko katoatia ana m\u0101tou Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire, o te Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill. Engari t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero i rangonatia e au i te p\u014D nei, me t\u014Dna hirahiratanga, me t\u014Dna motuhaketanga an\u014D hoki ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero, ko te \u014Dhanga o ng\u0101 pakihi M\u0101ori. N\u0101 Cushla i k\u014Drerotia i ng\u0101 \u014Dh\u0101ki, i ng\u0101 waiata, i ng\u0101 p\u016Bk\u014Drero, i ng\u0101 h\u012Btori o ng\u0101 kaip\u0101mu ki Ngati Porou, ar\u0101 ko ng\u0101 hua nui i roto i \u0113r\u0101 momo k\u014Drero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[I stand to deliver the speech for the second time this evening, regarding the third part of this bill. The M\u0101ori Party absolutely supports this bill, the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill. However, one point I heard this evening, which is important, and unique to this discussion, is the economy of M\u0101ori business. Cushla spoke about the final wishes, the songs, the orators, the history of the farmers in Ngati Porou. There was so much worth in those types of stories.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI think I reflect on the impact that the M\u0101ori economy has had in this industry as well. It\u2019s doubled in size at an extremely fast rate. I think the stories that me and Cushla have brought into the Whare tonight from our respective electorates\u2014we have many different waiata, k\u014Drero, p\u016Br\u0101kau, stories that go with that, right?\u2014are a prime example as to probably why the M\u0101ori economy has taken over, not overnight, but has boomed so much is because we know how to tell a story and we also know how to sell the product.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ESo, yeah, I think it\u2019s beautiful to have those contributions in the House tonight, and the whakapapa that comes with that to this dairy industry, but the whakapapa that t\u016Bpuna have and that rohe have and that pepeha have in that sector. So I do really want to highlight that that\u2019s such a significant area into why, personally, I think that the M\u0101ori economy has just taken off, because we have international industries that fall in love with these stories and the way that we have M\u0101ori tourism, M\u0101ori industries, like Miraka, for example, and Tatua Dairy that have been able to secure those really big contracts, with which we went from 0\u00A0percent of the dairy industry to 12\u00A0percent with those big overseas contracts that Miraka had installed. Ahakoa t\u014D m\u0101tou w\u0101 iti ki roto i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 \u014Dhanga o ng\u0101 pakihi M\u0101ori, kua tino kite i ng\u0101 hua, and kua k\u014Drerotia e m\u0101tou ng\u0101 mema M\u0101ori me a m\u0101tou rohe, me \u0101 m\u0101tou k\u014Drero tuku iho ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 w\u0101hanga. N\u014D reira e tautokotia ana m\u0101tou Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i t\u0113nei pire. E mihi ana ki te komiti whakahaere, e mihi hoki ana ki te Minita i kawe mai i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 p\u012Bre. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Despite our short time within this economy of M\u0101ori business, we have clearly seen the benefits, which the M\u0101ori members and our constituencies have spoken about, as well as our history in this part. As such, the M\u0101ori Party supports this bill. We acknowledge the select committee, and the Minister who brought this bill to the House. Greetings to all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022419a07e4e3c24e488506803df4928913\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022419a07e4e3c24e488506803df4928913\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. First up, I think I\u2019d like to tautoko Minister Mark Patterson\u2019s caution around the gene tech bill, which is the other big thing that is coming up. However, we are here to talk about the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill, which of course is related to the gene tech bill. [Interruption] Oh they rise, they rise, don\u2019t they? I was pleased to hear that they are awake next door, because for a moment earlier I thought there was dead silence and possibly\u2014but no, they weren\u2019t. They came alive when my colleague Steve Abel made it clear that they\u2019ve got 18 months to get stuff done. And boy, I was pleased to see that they were\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3fc2f665c6c46898445900c55f97dda\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Animated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5818df61e2f4ac18c10e04371b06632\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: They were getting animated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EBut I would like to reassure the Government opposite that tonight we are doing something good and it will endure. Eighteen months might be only what\u2019s left, but this, tonight, is something that will endure. And that\u2019s a good thing\u2014that\u2019s a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo we are talking about the dairy export quota, but the other thing that I think is really interesting with that is what this can do here in Aotearoa. Earlier I talked about my love of cheese and particularly the P\u00E9lardon. [Interruption] What are you shaking your head\u2014what are they shaking their heads at?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022539e4f978b5b456889a04ba637e9cf73\u0022\u003EHon Chris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: We just don\u2019t know what you\u2019re talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229289bed8eb0c46d8af4fb8d8e9dc65de\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government not love cheese as well? Come on. Cheese is a wonderful thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223089b9b181c54a68bbfe40563b1613f4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Like a merino\u2019s backside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b038be0e538a4a669b1d392264635207\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! I do think we have a fantastic opportunity to enhance the value of our dairy produce and to make sure that we as a country also are able to enjoy the fruits of rural Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EIf we think about some of those cheeses, in my neck of the woods there\u2019s the Whitestone range of cheeses, there\u2019s Evansdale, but I\u2019m particularly keen on Cranky Goat Cheese\u2014they do a very good cheese locally. And I think what this bill does is it gives us an opportunity to think not only about export markets, but it gives us an opportunity to think about place-based production that will help build our brand in those export markets and here in Aotearoa. Rather than just selling volumes of milk and dried milk powder, we can add that value\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e6adc5a5de4dd2afdae0c79b47e284\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got a lot to learn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b98829153bfc4fe3bcd52ee62ddfa962\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014we can create the\u2014and it\u2019s true: I do have a lot to learn, but I also have made a lot of different produce and cheeses in my time, and I think we have an opportunity to enhance our own rural economy through appreciation of what we can offer the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI think when we look at what other countries do, if we look at the range of Brie, of Roquefort, of Bleu d\u2019Auvergnes, P\u00E9lardons, why do we not have the same range that we\u2019re as proud of here that we want to export as dairy produce that we\u2019ve enhanced its value? We\u2019re not just selling milk; we\u2019re not just selling dried milk; we\u2019re doing something else and making it valuable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI think this point is really, really important because while some of us can go and get good cheese here, we also need to think about what we do with tourism as tourism changes and how we can enhance Aotearoa\u2019s brand both externally and internally\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e0b5376b0740bf861e5e500044d969\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand would be good. It\u2019s a good brand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022300505c3d6f448dcb6a80e4ac65c6a8f\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and making it unique rather than calling it a province of a small European nation, it would probably be even better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo just to finish, we are, of course, supporting this bill, as you know, but we also see fantastic opportunity to really build a thriving rural economy based around value, not volume.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022366040b0265e44589d569e6821ea8ecd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022366040b0265e44589d569e6821ea8ecd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u0022c965e20f37104845849af7ba051a4d94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c965e20f37104845849af7ba051a4d94\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, what an interesting, ahem, speech from Scott Willis in the world of cheese. Look, I just want to speak very briefly just to say that it\u2019s, as we\u2019ve all said before, wonderful to see the cross-party support for this bill. In my electorate in Tair\u0101whiti, we only have one or two dairy farms. But, in the Eastern Bay of Plenty, there are very many, and there are many, many, many opportunities to expand the offering in terms of trade and export from dairy and non-bovine dairy products going out into the world. New Zealand farmers are the best in the world. We\u2019ve heard it all evening. Everyone has mentioned that. We\u2019ve had some great work from the select committee, and I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceea006bbfae45459c94c8242a104fe3\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: The backbone of dairy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea0a19b19c734d778af6bc6afb5a4957\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! The backbone of dairy. I just want to make sure that we all remember this is critical to the mission of getting New Zealand\u2019s economic growth agenda at the forefront of the thinking. And it\u2019s a simple equation: more growth means more opportunities for New Zealanders, which is a great thing. So, for the love of all that\u2019s cheesy in Scott Willis\u2019 world, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u0022807048439b3e45f9915860893a0a46eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022807048439b3e45f9915860893a0a46eb\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 an\u014D koe, Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4dc2921bd724c0e98ee20269d01cf64\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Song!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1e8b0db54884bbab2ee739043e6ed8a\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. I heard a request for a song from across the floor. Have you got the backing track, have you? Now, in my earlier contribution to this bill, I did recount a waiata written by T\u0101 \u0100pirana Turupa Ngata in relation to his aspirations and vision around the dairy industry, a lot of which did come to fruition, so I think he\u2019d be pleased here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019m thinking of a song for this contribution. The only one that came to mind was \u201CMy milkshake brings all the boys to the yard\u201D. It might sound funny, but it is actually very relevant to this kaupapa. I\u2019m not going to sing it. You can sing it in your head. You can sing\u2014come on, give me a drum roll then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EMy milkshake brings all the boys to the yard\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EDamn right, it\u2019s better than yours\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EThey\u2019re like, it\u2019s better than yours\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI can teach you, but I\u2019d have to charge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ENow, everyone here has talked about how we have the most top-quality dairy in the world. We do. We\u2019re not necessarily going to teach people how to produce it, because that would be stupid, but we are going to have to charge. But, in order to charge for our top-quality milk that makes these milkshakes that bring all the boys and girls to the yard, we have to protect our industry, because whether we like it or not, and we know we make the best milk that brings all the boys to the yard, it\u2019s not the only option available these days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EWhen you go to Coppers or wherever you go to get your caffeine fix, you will often hear people say, \u201CI\u2019ll have an oat milk latte, please.\u201D, \u201CI\u2019ll have almond milk please.\u201D All power to people who are on plant-based diets, but the reality is, here tonight, we are talking about growing, preserving, and ensuring our Aotearoa New Zealand dairy industry thrives. So that\u2019s what we\u2019re all here for, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re all getting along delirious on all the lactose we\u2019ve been drinking and having a good old laugh tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EWe do need to protect it so that it\u2019ll grow. Everyone\u2019s talked about growth, and with that in mind, I want to remind us all that in order to grow this industry and our amazing products, we need to grow our people. I think what we need to also be thinking about is the education and training opportunities that we must provide to make sure that not only have we got the best cheese makers, the best milk producers, but that it\u2019s a career for people and we are providing the best quality research to not only make sure we\u2019re putting out the best milk for your full-fat latte\u2014full-fat milk latte\u2014but also that we\u2019re producing product that is sustainable and attractive to diversifying markets. So we\u2019ve got to make sure that we\u2019re doing the research and development phases as well to diversify, as I said, our product offerings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI went to school, just a couple of years ago, when that song came out [laughter]. Ha, ha! I was gonna say, don\u2019t say anything about milkshakes bringing boys to the yard when I was at school, the opposite side of the House. But the message I received, even though I was brought up on a farm in a rural community, was \u201CWhen you grow up, you\u2019re going to be a lawyer. When you grow up, you\u2019re going to be a doctor.\u201D Well, first of all, they should have said, \u201CMake sure you can cook for 300 people at the marae.\u201D, but that\u2019s a whole other story. But there weren\u2019t the messages about, \u201CHey, we really do need more farmers. Hey, we really do need more shearers. Hey, we really do need more dairy producers.\u201D And so we need to put that message into our rangatahis\u2019 minds\u2014not just our rangatahi, but Aotearoa wh\u0101nui\u2014to remind our rangatahi that, number one, \u201CIt\u2019s OK if you want to work the land. In fact, it\u2019s fantastic.\u201D It is fantastic, and we need to let them know not only the benefits of a career in our primary industries but the benefits that they contribute to Aotearoa wh\u0101nui and our international reputation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EEducate our rangatahi not only about how to work in these industries, how to research to make sure we\u2019re producing the best, how to work hard so that we\u2019re exporting the best-quality products that reflect our clean, green image and our high-quality image. But educate them about how what they do on our land and what they do with our kararehe, our animals, impacts our reputation in the world and the value that they add.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ESince cheese came up and we\u2019re talking about how this bill will provide opportunities for everyone to have a have a slice of the cheese, I want to acknowledge Waimata Cheese from T\u016Branga-nui-a-Kiwa Gisborne, a small family-owned company, locally based, internationally renowned. Initially they started, naturally, making beautiful dairy cheese. They have since diversified into sheep-dairy cheeses\u2014a wonderful example of how small, niche, quality producers can have a massive impact on our global reputation, while, of course, doing the things that I value the most: living where you\u2019re from, working your land, and promoting your rohe to the world. And that\u2019s why I think we have to understand that in order to grow not only our dairy industry but the international reputation of Aotearoa and the quality and the value we provide, we have to grow our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EOn that note\u2014it\u2019s a little bit of a segue, but not too far removed; it\u2019s still primary industries\u2014I do want to talk about collegiality today, and, like I said, everyone seems to have had a lot of milk to drink because we\u2019re all harikoa. But, in terms of collegiality, I just want to acknowledge Minister Patterson. Recently, he and I visited Te Wairoa H\u014Dp\u016Bp\u016B H\u014Dnengenenge M\u0101tangirau together to talk about growing M\u0101ori in the wool industry. So there are definitely opportunities for us to work across the floor in general, and I would, of course, given my latest portfolio and given my electorate also, like us to look at committing to promoting not only M\u0101ori careers in the wool industry and across the primary sectors but definitely looking at the opportunities for M\u0101ori in the dairy industry, especially when it comes to free-trade agreements, as per T\u0101 \u0100pirana Ngata\u2019s vision and desires. And I want to repeat what I believe his message was, which remains relevant today: we want to grow our people. They deserve to work hard for a good living. We want to grow our whenua, and we will look after that and vice versa. In order for our reputation to stay strong internationally, we cannot separate ourselves from those two values: looking after our lands and looking after our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll reiterate one more time. We talk about growth all the time. And to grow this industry, we have to grow our people across the board, and we have to think about our messaging that this is not just about economics; it\u2019s about the value that this can have for each individual who contributes to New Zealand\u2019s grand reputation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EAnd don\u2019t forget our milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard, and, damn right, it\u2019s better than yours. I could teach you, but I\u2019d have to charge. Hoi an\u014D r\u0101 e te wh\u0101nau wh\u0101nui. Once again, I stand on behalf of the Labour Party and commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u00227edfe256b19f4461bc39374fc2920452\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227edfe256b19f4461bc39374fc2920452\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Look, this bill modernises our quota system to grow exports and increase farm-gate returns. It\u2019s about market opportunities. It\u2019s about economic growth, competition, and innovation. It\u2019s great for dairy farmers and it\u2019s great for New Zealand. I am proud to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002234a686810f0d454a9119108aeb2631ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234a686810f0d454a9119108aeb2631ab\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. We\u2019ve heard a lot tonight about the wonderful contribution of farmers across Aotearoa New Zealand. But as the member of Parliament for Taieri, which is in the Otago and Clutha region, I would remind members of this House that Otago was number one out of the 16 regions that were listed as, in terms of performing economically\u2014we were number one, and Canterbury was number two. Explicitly, agriculture, red meat, dairy, and so on were listed as the reasons why Canterbury had performed so well. So I too want to join in the chorus of voices that are celebrating our farmers tonight, the contribution that they make, and certainly just remind members opposite in the Government, who have a habit of not putting the South Island on the maps that they show to their members at various hui, including at, apparently, the big investment hui last week\u2014there was a map that didn\u2019t even include the South Island\u2014that we are here, we are number one and number two, respectively, in the most prosperous economies, and not to forget that. That is very much thank you to our farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI would also like to add my support for the words of the Hon Mark Patterson, who lives in the Taieri electorate. I had the pleasure of campaigning against him in two election campaigns, and also of him hosting various members of our caucus through farmland across the Lawrence area and into Otago. Very generous of him to do that\u2014always wanting to educate people about the rural sector. I think Mark Patterson has made some really good points around the caution that needs to be taken by Fonterra, given that it is a cooperative business model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ETurning to this bill, we have heard tonight that there is collegiality because, really, this is a bill that promotes fairness and innovation. I would like to commend both of the Ministers who\u2019ve been involved: my colleague, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, who started the process and, again, the Hon Todd McClay, who did indulge us with really fulsome answers in the committee of the whole House stage this evening. Given that this is urgency and a fairly rushed process, it was great to have that kind of engagement and to have a Minister on top of his portfolio. We haven\u2019t seen that a lot lately, so really just saying that\u2019s really valued, particularly when there isn\u2019t a select committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat we did ask in the committee of the whole House were questions around whether the balance had been struck appropriately between the fairness of the allocation, assessing for risk and track record, encouraging innovation for new products such as goat and sheep milk\u2014those who may not necessarily have a track record or who may have a strong track record in some areas and not necessarily in others. The Minister did answer our questions fulsomely and satisfy those, I think, very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI think we also agree with the things that the bill is trying to achieve, which are around making sure that small exporters can have market access while still ensuring that those who have a track record and who have got an existing supply line out of the country are not jeopardised. It has achieved that well. As I say, the scrutiny in the committee of the whole House stage showed that the balance, I think, has been well struck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe final point is something that probably hasn\u2019t come up, I think, in much of the discussion, which is just a change that has been made where the bill removes the term of imprisonment from penalties for false statutory declarations. This is a strict liability offence. It\u2019s really unusual these days to have any kind of imprisonment term available for strict liability offences. That is where the burden of proof is changed. Most people in the public realise where there\u2019s a criminal offence, there is a burden of proof which is beyond reasonable doubt and people are innocent until proven guilty. When we have strict liability offences, that changes, and the person or organisation is deemed to be at fault unless they can prove otherwise. That is antiquated, it\u2019s unfair, and it doesn\u2019t sit well in a modern system. So it\u2019s really good to see that officials have made sure that they have removed that kind of antiquated provision from the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s nice to be in urgency on a collegiate evening with a good bill, and we commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1c1e6ace74f4b54a4646984416451f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1c1e6ace74f4b54a4646984416451f3\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to stand and be part of the third reading of this bill; we\u2019re just about there. We\u2019ve heard a lot of comments and we\u2019ve traversed a lot of the bills, so I probably don\u2019t want to speak to that, apart from I\u2019m very supportive of all the work that\u2019s done. But what I do want to speak to are some of the challenges that we are currently exposed to in the dairy industry, in particular regions, namely one of those regions of my home patch of Taranaki and the drought conditions that they are exposed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003ENow, dairy farming obviously has its highs. You could look at the fact that the payout at the moment is at record highs at this time. But that\u2019s only good if you\u2019re producing milk. The drought conditions that are exposed or are present in the number of these regions is a very trying time. Mark Patterson mentioned that he was in Taranaki last week for a visit to Taranaki, and I can tell you that was very well received. A lot of people don\u2019t understand the pressures that come on to dairy farmers in such times as this. It\u2019s not just the caring for the animals and endeavouring to find the supplementary feed when there\u2019s a lack of a grass, but also the mental toll that it plays on individuals in the dairy industry. We should always remember that communication\u2014looking after one another, looking over the neighbours\u2019 fence and talking to your neighbour\u2014is an important part in such trying times. So it\u2019s pleasing, for what I\u2019ve experienced, of being at farmers\u2019 barbecues and having that communication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003EBack to this bill here, the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill. This here is a great bill. It is providing value to more than just the bovine dairy industry; it\u2019s also talking about sheep, goat, and deer. It\u2019s valuable to all of them, it provides diversity for the smaller players, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002242b58ffb7c8e403688a8958f9dc0cee3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242b58ffb7c8e403688a8958f9dc0cee3\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I think I might be the last Labour speaker on this piece of legislation. It is good to be able to support a sensible piece of legislation\u2014actually, just to remind the House that it\u2019s once more a positive initiative from Labour to help the dairy industry. And I do have to remind the House and the industry that going back to the 1930s, guaranteed minimum price, the formation of the Dairy Board in the 1950s, you had in the 1980s the Labour Government taking away subsidies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIt was interesting to hear the ACT member trying to say that, you know, we should just listen to the farmers and leave it in the hands of the farmers. In fact, I went to one of those protest meetings and the President of Federated Farmers at the time, Sir Peter Elworthy, as it was, he got up and told the farmers what they needed to hear, not what they wanted to hear. Mr Hoggard should perhaps take that on board. They needed to hear that you could no longer just carry on farming on the basis of subsidies. That intervention by Labour, an important one, actually reset the agricultural sector to be one of the more efficient, if not the most efficient, across the globe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo once again, the formation of Fonterra by a Labour Government enabled the consolidation so that we truly were leading the world. We did the UK and the EU free-trade agreement (FTA), and I know the Government has with other good FTAs. The Labour Government got rid of Mycoplasma bovis at considerable cost. These have all been positive interventions for the dairy industry, our single biggest industry in this country. And once again, this piece of legislation is from an initiative carried through by the Government to actually open up export opportunities for new and innovative players. That\u2019s a good positive step forward, but it can\u2019t be just taken for granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe point that I make in this final speech is the one of leadership. To go back to what Minister Hoggard said\u2014you know, \u201Cjust leave it to the farmers.\u201D Well, the farmers do a very good job of farming, but Parliament must take the responsibility to show some leadership and intervene from time to time when it is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe had from the New Zealand First Minister, Minister Patterson, making some very good points, praised in this House for his support for the dairy industry, even though he\u2019s a sheep and beef farmer. Good on him. It doesn\u2019t always happen across the board, but he\u2019s done that. But he then raised some points about the sell off of the consumer brand business of Fonterra, and many of us share those concerns. It might be left to the hands of the farmers ultimately, but actually there is a broader responsibility for Parliament to intervene in the single biggest industry, the most important industry in our country. So you can\u2019t just \u201Cleave it in the hands of the farmers\u201D. It has to be in conjunction, in partnership with the farmers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eedb368752864f709bf862008f008b20\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what the bill is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022628cf1686cd9455eaa42ed093e559ec8\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: But what had\u2014oh, the Minister is saying \u201CRefer to the bill.\u201D Is that what he\u2019s referring to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e95b607a1994ca5937829f381ff5b29\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not a Minister, but thank you!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5e1d41124c246b5a039ee2334905b26\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Or the member is. Can I just say that when left to the farmers, we saw the doss of the wool levy, and Minister Patterson himself is now trying to address an issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EPartnership between farming and business sectors and Parliament delivers the most success, and always has done, across our economy. This piece of legislation is once again a sign of a positive partnership between Parliament and the industry. But there will be times when leadership is required, and if Minister Patterson thinks that it\u2019s important to retain that, he has to, as a Minister, step up and take that leadership role. That is really, really important. If others hadn\u2019t done that in the past, we would still be languishing in the inefficient, low-value production systems that were a hallmark particularly through the 1970s and the 1980s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to say that this is a good piece of legislation. It\u2019s not huge, but it opens the door to opportunities. It doesn\u2019t guarantee success. And the implementation of this by officials, by Governments, by the Minister, and by the industry itself\u2014hopefully, in a cooperative way\u2014will deliver added value to each and every bit of milk that is produced in this country. That\u2019s what we need if we\u2019re to double exports in this country, and we want to see exports grow as well. But it\u2019s an ambitious target. It will require the extraction of every bit of value from every drop of milk in our country, along with all the other industries that export, Minister. I think that Labour has clearly stated its support for this bill and support for the dairy industry. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022566ddab036bc4fb3af39669462b54a37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022566ddab036bc4fb3af39669462b54a37\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it\u2019s great to be joined, as a dairy farmer in the House\u2014a few dairy farmers left in the House\u2014by yourself, Madam Speaker, as a dairy farmer. Welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EThis is very important, and I\u2019m very proud to stand here and be the last speaker on this bill. One of the reasons this sort of thing is so important is that the dairy industry has been around for over a hundred years, and it will be around for a hundred more. As someone whose family has been farming\u2014and I\u2019m a fourth-generation farmer, and my son recently decided he doesn\u2019t want to be a valuer and would rather go and be a dairy farmer. He\u2019s taken up dairy farming and is working on a dairy farm in Canterbury. I just think that\u2019s why this sort of thing is so important\u2014that we get this right so that future generations are able to participate in a great sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EI look forward, actually, to going through and finding in the Hansard record all the great comments that have been made around the House about the dairy sector, because I\u2019ve been very happy with that and I look forward to quoting them back to people when we move on to more contentious pieces of legislation! Anyway, I think I\u2019ve said enough. The whip thinks I\u2019ve said enough! I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223cfe128286644b60b32ec8dd1c3ad721\u0022\u003ESocial Workers Registration Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229018f3e789694dbba68d1378512d6d02\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001437\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 6 March.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa036329ad7a44579c59f3889d41370d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa036329ad7a44579c59f3889d41370d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Last time we were on this piece of legislation, we were up to the ACT call, call No. 4. I call Todd Stephenson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a92083e5e61e4736b366afff6d5045ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a92083e5e61e4736b366afff6d5045ee\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s my pleasure to rise this evening and talk on the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill. I want to acknowledge the work of the Social Services and Community Committee, ably chaired by Joseph Mooney, the second-best MP based in Queenstown. I also want to acknowledge the work of Laura McClure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c6ad155c7ed43c7a1fe38c560a89fe2\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Laura McClure moved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cb5ca329f8b4198b08bc54217648ef0\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the ACT member on that committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022996531c6f62c4576b64356eaa8fb1bc4\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Did she move to Queenstown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0ce909c60a54e178ba32b4436410d58\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you\u2014quiet over there in the cheap seats! I want to note that there were some submissions in relation to this bill\u2014five in total, I think; one actually heard orally. But all the recommendations made by the select committee were actually passed unanimously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EThis is a really good piece of legislation, this bill. It\u2019s actually updating the Social Workers Registration Act 2003. Actually, this 2003 Act had a really excellent, built-in review mechanism where it had to be looked at every five years. This amendment bill is a result of that. We\u2019re making sure that our social workers\u2014who are a really important group in our community, delivering really important services\u2014are up to standard and, in fact, the regulations that they operate are up to scratch. So it\u2019s good that this bill makes some modifications, some updates, and some very simple but important legislative changes, and I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u00222cec2113184a42a39a175483a7506a75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cec2113184a42a39a175483a7506a75\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill. I was also on the Social Services and Community Committee, so we saw this bill through the House. It wasn\u2019t contentious. There were only about five submitters. A very good summary by my colleague Mr Stephenson on what the bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EI would really just like to take a couple of moments to acknowledge all of the social workers out there. It is a very difficult job, and when you\u2019re in the helping profession, you do carry a lot. It is one of the reasons why social workers need supervision. Some of that is covered in this piece of legislation, but I really just wanted to acknowledge the good work that they do, and I\u2019ll speak a little bit more in the third reading, so I commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4401a64d60f42dc9ed54dbdbdad666b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4401a64d60f42dc9ed54dbdbdad666b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022 data-id=\u00220e7f8c7b139645d0a449c6fbbd036a32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e7f8c7b139645d0a449c6fbbd036a32\u0022\u003ETAKUTAI TARSH KEMP (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. E te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. I rise this evening to speak in support of the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill on behalf of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. I want to make special mention of my colleague and the member for Te Tai Tokerau, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi, for participating in the consideration of this bill for the Social Services and Community Committee in my absence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EOur people, our wh\u0101nau, our mokopuna have long suffered under a system that has too often failed to uphold their dignity, their rights, and their tino rangatiratanga. We acknowledge that social workers play a really vital role in our community, supporting wh\u0101nau through times of crisis, advocating for tamariki, and working tirelessly to ensure that our people receive the best-quality care they deserve. However, this work must be done in a way that reflects te ao M\u0101ori, is accountable to our communities, and upholds the mana of those it serves. This bill strengthens the regulatory framework that governs social workers in Aotearoa. It is essential that those entrusted with the wellbeing of our people are fit to practice and hold to the highest standards of accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EBy broadening the grounds of interim suspension, enhancing the investigative powers of the Social Workers Registration Board, and enabling professional conduct committees to take multiple actions on complex cases, we ensure that there are robust safeguards in place to protect our most vulnerable wh\u0101nau. A key provision in this bill is the transfer of investigative functions from the Ministry of Social Development to the Social Workers Registration Board. We view this as a positive step towards greater independence and oversight, ensuring that those who regulate the sector are dedicated specialists rather than Government officials with conflicting responsibilities. However, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori remains vigilant, and we must ensure that M\u0101ori voices are embedded in this process, that our tikanga is respected, and that our social workers are not disproportionately targeted by these provisions. Given that the Social Workers Registration Act 2003 mandates a review every five years, we will be keeping a microscope on this space to ensure that the aforementioned be true, ensuring that the system remains fair and just for our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EIt would be amiss to not mention the practices in place within Wh\u0101nau Ora and the work being done by the network up and down the motu. I would hope that for the greater good of our nation and an increasing need for social services, the board will lean into the Wh\u0101nau Ora way in their delivery of services. It continuously proves to be effective when meeting the needs of our people. Furthermore, the bill adds a monitoring function for prescribed educational qualifications. This presents an opportunity to further incorporate M\u0101ori-led social worker training, ensuring that our wh\u0101nau are supported by professionals who understand tikanga M\u0101ori and operate within a framework of whanaungatanga and manaakitanga. We call upon the Government and the Social Workers Registration Board to work closely with M\u0101ori social workers, educators, iwi, and community leaders, to ensure that qualifications meet the needs of our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EWhile we support the intent of this bill, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori remains committed to advocating for a broader transformation of our social services. Our ultimate goal is the full realisation of \u201Cby M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori\u201D\u2014solutions where wh\u0101nau are empowered to determine their own pathways and where social services work in partnership with our people, rather than imposing State control over their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EKa t\u016B m\u0101ia m\u0101tou ki te tautoko i t\u0113nei pire. Heoi an\u014D ka whakat\u016Bpato tonu m\u0101tou k\u0101ore e mutu t\u0101 m\u0101tou whawhai m\u014D te tika, te mana me te rangatiratanga o t\u014D t\u0101tou iwi. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003E[We will stand confidently to support this bill. However, we extend our warning that we will not stop fighting for justice, for the authority and autonomy of our tribe. Thank you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u002260d2b3119fea413d88604bf1d958a54a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260d2b3119fea413d88604bf1d958a54a\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party of Aotearoa in support of the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill. This bill makes a number of minor yet important amendments to the Social Workers Registration Act, improving the processes that govern social work in Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESocial work is an essential and often undervalued profession. It exists at the front lines of our social support system, working with wh\u0101nau in crisis, supporting people through complex and often traumatic circumstances, and advocating for the wellbeing of our most vulnerable. Social workers deserve a system that upholds professional integrity, protects their mahi, and ensures public confidence in the profession. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThis bill allows for the Social Workers Registration Board\u2019s mandatory review of the Act in 2020. Many of the changes are technical, designed to fix inconsistencies, streamline processes, and modernise language, including replacing outdated gendered terms with gender neutral language. The Green Party welcomes these small but very important meaningful updates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EMore broadly, this bill strengthens the integrity of the profession by improving processes around professional conduct and accountability. These changes will ensure that investigations into social workers, whether related to the Social Workers Registration Act, the Health and Disability Commissioner Act, or criminal proceedings, can begin as soon as concerns arise, rather than waiting for formal action to be under way. This is a practical step to safeguard public safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes changes to how interim suppressions are actually managed. Instead of the current rigid 10-day extension periods, suspensions will now align with the time required that it takes for the investigation or medical examination to be complete. This reduces unnecessary delays while still ensuring due process for social workers under investigation. Furthermore, the bill empowers professional conduct committees to make multiple determinations in complex cases rather than being restricted to a single outcome. This will allow for a more nuanced decision-making that better reflects the realities of social work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThe Social Services and Community Committee examined the bill and unanimously recommended the bill. In the first reading, the Greens raised questions about whether these changes would be used more frequently due to resourcing pressures on social workers. The select committee report didn\u2019t directly answer this, but its scrutiny of interim suspension provisions, particularly the time frame adjustments, ensures the process is more workable for both social workers and for the people they serve. The committee paid particular attention to the interim suspension provisions, given their significant impact on both social workers and public safety. The current law only allows 10 working days for a suspension notice, often requiring multiple extensions. The bill allows the board to set a reasonable time frame while ensuring that reviews can occur as needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThe committee also clarified the process for transferring investigative powers from the Ministry of Social Development to the board, ensuring that all relevant information, including case notes and assessments, is included. The board intends to review suspension time frames again in its 2025 review, ensuring further refinement if needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThis bill is not a radical reform, but it is a necessary one. It makes practical improvements to enhance the effectiveness of social work systems and support those working tirelessly to uphold the rights and dignity of people across Aotearoa. The Green Party is pleased to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6899c4a3c074a4b943de83784f19ff4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6899c4a3c074a4b943de83784f19ff4\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s good to see cross-party support for the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill. The bill seeks to achieve much-needed and better regulatory oversight over social workers, who deliver valuable health and social services. It protects them, and it protects the public. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00222c82826f60154b84a6910002e1fdf123\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c82826f60154b84a6910002e1fdf123\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s probably one of the worst speeches I\u2019ve ever heard from that man, Paulo Garcia. He can do much better than that; I know that for sure, because I\u2019ve watched him chair at select committee, so he knows what he\u2019s talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EYeah, so in terms of this, though, this is our annual review that we\u2019re doing. This is a bill, I suppose, that the whole House can get behind, and there\u2019s not a lot to argue with the other side about, but I will use all my time tonight just to irritate the other side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3c9b93e10d74d4a8e63f3249d1844f7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Make it worthwhile irritation, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b88e53b5cd14499883a6560c7a596b3\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll try my best, Madam Speaker\u2014I\u2019ll try my best. The last review took place in 2020 under the wonderful Labour Government, and this bill makes 16 minor policy and technical amendments to the Act. There are some really interesting changes, I think. I was looking through it, and particularly in the ethnic cultural area, we\u2019re making some specific changes. We\u2019re making 16 minor policy and technical amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EBut one of the changes that I think the whole House would find very interesting, particularly in the National Party and, I think, New Zealand First, is replacing terms like \u201Che\u201D or \u201Cshe\u201D with gender-neutral terminology. I think that\u2019s a fascinating change there, and I was sort of wondering how it got through the coalition Government given their\u2014you know, I was wondering if New Zealand First had had a look at this, because it sort of goes against everything that the Deputy Prime Minister has been talking about in terms of woke and not putting up with woke. I can\u2019t even see a New Zealand First person in the House, which is a shame\u2014oh, there is one over there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0c6ee941ade49e9b0b1fed792dee1b8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand First did speak on the bill, and there is a New Zealand First person in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dff71084bcb43d78ee2a5710a1da3c9\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, there. So, yeah, I\u2019ve got to say to that member: how on earth did he let this get by him? Replacing terms like \u201Che\u201D or \u201Cshe\u201D with gender-neutral terminology, of course, is something that Labour and the Greens support 150\u00A0percent, but to see that the Greens sold their supporters out badly just to try and be part of the coalition\u2014very sad, really, but shows you that they\u2019ll do anything in terms of staying in power. Sad to watch the Greens giving up all their principles with regards to this. And they\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225230b55318a2407aa1f879b388530b07\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: The Greens\u2014the Greens?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2d062dd20694715bc080d8a5c912ffc\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry, not the Greens\u2014sorry. New Zealand First is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f5843e3c42e470ea029dd91bb89f164\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, you just said the Greens twice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa87af229a8240d9a142fd5094f1b392\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you so much for your correction. Anything else you\u2019d like to correct? But what I\u2019m saying is when I look at this and I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e88093d8660848ed816e3fa169f8b945\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the problem with labels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c3a9c8f134b4fd3bef57b089d6c6b97\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s true, but you agree with the label, so that\u2019s good. In terms of these terminologies, it does show you how hypocritical some of these parties can be. It does show you, but anyway, gender\u2014I think changing these terminologies is very, very good, very woke; well done\u2014well, according to New Zealand First, but very appropriate for us, very appropriate for us, because we\u2019re on the right side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIn terms of social workers, this is a very important kaupapa for myself, because I managed many social workers in my previous role as a chief executive with our urban M\u0101ori authorities. I had many social workers who worked with me through the years. The key here with social workers is they go beyond the call of duty many times, particularly\u2014and I heard the member over there talking about Wh\u0101nau Ora, and I salute our Wh\u0101nau Ora workers tonight, who have done so much with different wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EOne of the things that they have been pursuing is pay equity. Pay equity is something that we were always addressing as a Labour Party Government, along with the Greens, who were supporting us, and New Zealand First, who, sadly, forgot their roots and sold their soul to the National Party, who would do a deal with anyone just to get in. Pay equity was an area that we were pushing because social workers have always been underfunded, undervalued, and they have been doing such wonderful work at ground level. When I had social workers working with me, not only were they looking after things between 9 and 5; they were looking after wh\u0101nau between 9 and midnight. Many times, those social workers would go out of their way to look after wh\u0101nau. I had social workers who looked after abused women, who looked after family, who went that extra mile, and we were looking always as a Government at improving their wages and their conditions. It was one of the things as a former Minister I was really proud to be part of, Labour\u2019s push in terms of pay equity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got to ask tonight: what is this Government doing to ensure that our social worker workforce has been compensated for the extra work? The other side of that is we have a real job shortage, we have a real worker shortage. So, again, I\u2019d ask the question: what is the status of the social worker workforce strategy? I would say that it is at zero because this Government has not helped workers. We have workers\u2019 wages lagging, we have the minimum wage not being increased at the rate that the Labour Government was pushing things along at, and we have social workers being totally neglected. So I\u2019m really pleased to be able to take this opportunity. Yes, of course we support this bill, but it is a reminder to the House that yes, while we support it, there has to be a much broader and wider strategy with regards to social workers. Are they getting pay parity? Is there any equity in terms of social workers? What is happening at Oranga Tamariki? How are social workers being affected there? How are M\u0101ori social workers being affected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThe sad thing is this Government doesn\u2019t care. They just tick the boxes off. They tick the boxes, they kick bureaucrats out; they don\u2019t have any strategies in terms of social worker shortages. There are no targeted strategies with regards to what\u2019s happening with M\u0101ori and what\u2019s happening with ethnic\u2014it\u2019s a really, really sad thing happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThe fourth Experiences of Care report that was released by Aroturuki Tamariki, the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor, showed that the Oranga Tamariki social workers were still not visiting kids in care as often as the national standards say they should. Again, this is particularly because of the pressures being placed on them by the Government\u2019s cuts. The Government is not understanding that if you do not fund and strategise with our workers and our social workers at ground level, the flow-on effect will be that social workers will not be able to get out there and assist wh\u0101nau. We have seen this particularly happening at Wh\u0101nau Ora level, and right now in terms of Wh\u0101nau Ora there are a lot of questions being asked about the future and what\u2019s going to happen in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo when we talk about this bill, yes, obviously, we\u2019re going to support the technical amendment changes\u2014of course we\u2019re going to support that\u2014but what I want to remind the Government today is that it\u2019s not just about technical changes for social workers; it\u2019s about a broader strategy. What\u2019s happening at the coalface? Are we getting pay equity? Is there a strategy around workforce development? Does this Government care? We know on this side of the House that they don\u2019t care. Everything suggests and tells us there is a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9eb742ae4a242079ae3b09b6d9ce8a2\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275571b951c324913b4596717fdf8ad7d\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is a fact; I\u2019m sorry to inform you, but you are an uncaring, useless, hopeless Government who don\u2019t care about workers at the coalface, don\u2019t give a damn, and, basically, you\u2019re just trying to tick things off. You sacrifice your principles, you have idiots in ACT over there who wouldn\u2019t know a social worker if he fell over one\u2014probably never met one in his life. Basically, you\u2019re a shameful Government and you\u2019re a disgrace to this nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019m very happy to support this bill tonight, a bill that was promoted by a Labour Government. That\u2019s the good thing, that Labour promoted this. The other side can go and jump in the lake. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6c0a4b0e9084f18b3968343d5f33bfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6c0a4b0e9084f18b3968343d5f33bfc\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I think I\u2019ll just bring us back to the bill. We support the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill. I will just clarify that on this side of the House we are very caring and very efficient and into very practical legislation, which, of course, this is. So without any further ado, I\u2019d like to also acknowledge the amazing social workers we have out there, working in our communities. I thank the Social Services Committee for all the work they\u2019ve done on this bill. It\u2019s great to see the cross-party support on it. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002243c523b6908643598213da64a92afe75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243c523b6908643598213da64a92afe75\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. I was on the committee, so am very happy to speak to this bill. Actually, with all due respect to the previous speaker, Catherine Wedd, it\u2019s all good supporting minor and technical amendments, but if the member was not listening to the previous contribution and not understanding the seriousness of the situation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5d4a230545040cd869a6a94140326ed\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Cos it\u2019s nothing to do with the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab0a14d304b94cd4ad0e558e4db44f44\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: It had everything to do with the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bb4311c9c634084b199adba060cde7b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No, it didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b6c3428dd0d4dc2a1904d46d3e288af\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: It has everything to do with social workers. If the other side of the House cannot understand and cannot connect the dots to the issues and the challenges that social workers are facing, what is the point of having a registration board who has all of these powers that we have in this piece of legislation if there is a workforce shortage? So I might just start there, because the sector is struggling to meet the ever increasing needs of children, wh\u0101nau, and communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIn a recent workforce survey that was done, around 13\u00A0percent of the workforce indicate they are planning to leave or to reduce their hours. There is no strategy. There is no workforce strategy for social workers. Was the House listening to a previous contribution where it has been pointed out in the most recent care experience report, and I quote, \u201CThe Independent Children\u2019s Monitor showed that Oranga Tamariki social workers were still not visiting children in care as often as the national standards say they should.\u201D? And this is partially due to the pressures placed on them by this Government\u2019s cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ELaura Walter\u2019s report said, and quotes Jones: \u201CSocial workers were unable to provide the care and support they wanted due to cost-cutting measures, perceived hiring freezes, a lack of resources and training, social and mental health workforce shortages, a siloed approach to care and service funding between government agencies, and prevailing societal attitudes.\u201D The Monitor also noted that \u201Crecent internal restructuring of Oranga Tamariki had pulled focus away from front-line work, while scarce resources were even harder to secure following the changes to commissioning and contracting.\u201D So I did find that last contribution disappointing, and in fact the heckling around the House, because I think they were trivialising the points that the side of the House was making and the connections to the sector that we are talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ELet me come to acknowledging the social workers and the very important work that they do, and that we know how much pressure they are under because of the decisions that this Government is making. So it\u2019s fine to make some minor and technical amendments to a piece of legislation for them, but why is that side of the House not speaking up about the changes and the pressures that the workforce are experiencing? Didn\u2019t hear any of that in the 30-second contributions that everyone chooses to give tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, as was said by this side of the House, these technical and minor amendments come out of a review that was done under Labour\u2019s time, so of course we support these changes and we support this legislation tonight. But I did want to use my time to remind the House of the wider challenges and pressures that the social workers face and that we should be mindful of that when we are passing this legislation, because some of the provisions in here are to deal with things that can happen when social workers are put under pressure. If that side of the House can\u2019t see the connection to it all, they are not paying attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022340ef90cff8949908578f984ca89c485\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: We certainly are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb71cf7a0aa44dabbf22aad5c2880ff4\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: They are not paying attention to all of the information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u0022e460235e832a49449313f3bbc06c1158\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e460235e832a49449313f3bbc06c1158\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to take a call on the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill. I really enjoyed speaking on the bill in the first reading. I\u2019ve been pleased to see what has come out of the select committee process\u2014and, as we\u2019ve made very clear, some very technical amendments that will help professionalise a very growing, increasing-need sector. So, with that, and to reflect the sentiments of my colleagues, with the support of the social worker sector and profession, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022d03f80fce26e4fbd8a874cb2cd72d7da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d03f80fce26e4fbd8a874cb2cd72d7da\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. First of all, happy birthday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d78d7af7e9c4047b93636d4a11b13f3\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e0a7243736349329a88b0bca08e0438\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: I want to draw on the comments of my colleagues about what the purpose of the bill is. Really, it is a very serious one, because we absolutely know we\u2019ve had problems with abuse in care for children and that we have real needs in our community, and social workers are an integral part of fixing that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI want to go to a report that was written by the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor and just read a short segment of that. It says, \u201CThe State should be a model parent.\u201D It then goes on, later, in a couple of paragraphs, to say, \u201CTo improve compliance in 2024/25 and beyond, Oranga Tamariki must address how it can free its social workers to do what they are trained to do\u2014being there for tamariki and rangatahi, completing thorough assessments and plans, supporting caregivers, and ultimately helping to keep tamariki and rangatahi safe, loved and cared for.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I wanted to start with that because it\u2019s a reminder of the purpose and the role that a social worker plays and how critical it is. Social workers don\u2019t, of course, only work in the situation of caring for children, but they\u2019re also out there in our health system, they\u2019re all through our community organisations. And this bill is about making sure that we have enough checks and balances in the system, run by the board, so that there can be a job done in terms of keeping social workers within the bounds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIn this bill, there are rules about things like interim suspension\u2014there\u2019s a movement away from a 10-day interim suspension to a 10-day suspension and then a reasonable amount of time necessary\u2014the board having a right to investigate social workers, and the new role of that board to look at educational qualifications but also to monitor them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve got about 7,520 practising social workers at the present time. We didn\u2019t start with this kind of registration system\u2014that\u2019s actually really new. In 2003, when the Act was put in place, there was no such mandatory regulation. It\u2019s actually only since 2021 that we seem to have mandatory regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the acknowledgment\u2014and lots of colleagues across the House have made it tonight\u2014that this is a really hard job. While we\u2019re putting in place structures which mean that social workers who get it wrong, or who are unsafe for our children or for those that they\u2019re caring for, are able to go through a process, we also have to acknowledge that it\u2019s one of the hardest jobs. I wouldn\u2019t really want to do it myself. It\u2019s so hard, I think it compares unfavourably, in terms of the burden it has, to the job we all do. I think social work is a job that\u2019s still well underpaid. Actually, the latest survey suggests that those in the profession are often burned out, there is a high work-load, there is a perception of poor pay\u2014and I think that bears out: there is poor pay in the sector. As a result, we\u2019ve got people moving out of it all the time. It\u2019s a profession where the surveys that are done are well attended\u2014people will tell the board what is going on for them\u2014and the latest survey suggests that more of those social workers feel unsafe due to abuse from clients. So it\u2019s a really high-stress profession. It\u2019s also a profession that\u2019s 85\u00A0percent women. Colleagues today have talked about the fact that the low pay of those social workers is very likely connected to the fact that it is a female profession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI think we\u2019re moving into a time when we\u2019re going to have to have a really big rethink about the way that we treat workers doing this kind of work. Because while we definitely need those kinds of boundaries around a job and a process of education, etc., we also just need to pay people better and treat them better and be more reasonable about what we expect of them. We\u2019re moving into a time when we\u2019re going to have automation in a lot of jobs, and these are the kinds of jobs that must be done by human beings and they must be done well by human beings. At the moment, we seem to have really devalued them. That\u2019s the moment in time we\u2019re at now. I\u2019m hoping that in the future, we will move away from that model and we\u2019ll see a flip: jobs like this will become much more highly valued and will pay people better in our society. And I do think that will affect the quality of the people that we get doing this work\u2014or will affect the quality of the work they do, is probably a better way of putting it. Because as long as we devalue the work, as long as we put people under huge pressure, as long as every time the Government changes there\u2019s a slash to the budgets of people, then, actually, we will end up with trouble keeping people and keeping people working well in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo while I am very supportive of this piece of legislation going through with the structures that it\u2019s got, I do think there\u2019s another harder piece of work to be done, which is getting the pay up of these workers, making sure that we are really thinking about our value system and what we value. From my own personal experience, I have parents who are ageing\u2014my father\u2019s 93. I think that the people who I value the most are the people that are assisting my parents stay in their own house. It\u2019s incredibly important work, but it\u2019s also work that could be badly done or it could be well done. At present, the people who do this kind of work are well undervalued in our remuneration. If we continue along that line, then I think we will see patchy care. So my challenge to this House is\u2014yes, we\u2019re all in agreement here, but it is time for us to really consider whether we need to review the way that we work and the way we structure the pay that we pay people who do this work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI would like to extend my thanks to the social workers who are doing a good job in very difficult circumstances. As I\u2019ve said, I just do not think it\u2019s a very easy job; I think it\u2019s become quite a risky job to do, so I would like to thank them for doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019d also like to go full circle to talk just for a moment about the stakes that we\u2019ve got and return to the issue of children. We\u2019ve had the report into abuse in care. We know that that is the tip of the iceberg, and it was a lot of volume. We know that it\u2019s not over. We know that it\u2019s very likely that that behaviour continues to happen, and that happens under our watch. While the Children\u2019s Commissioner is right to say that \u201CThe State should be the model parent.\u201D, that actually means us\u2014we\u2019ve got to be supplying the model parent. We have to make sure that the people that we are supplying into the system, our social workers and those caregivers, are actually being supported by us in a way that makes that work, work that is done well and done to the standards that we would expect for our own children. So I thank you for listening to me tonight, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u002240bed029b2424aefaada2255f863e2c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240bed029b2424aefaada2255f863e2c9\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be invited to speak on the second reading of the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill, and it\u2019s also really kind of you, Madam Speaker\u2014well, before you, Madam Speaker Maureen Pugh; happy birthday, Madam Speaker Barbara Kuriger\u2014for allowing Willie\u2019s Wine Bar to go on and on about things unrelated to the bill, but it must be part of your good nature on your birthday. But you\u2019re always good natured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EAs I learnt, the Social Services and Community Committee received five submissions on this bill, and one of them was from the Aotearoa New Zealand Association of Social Workers. I really was heartened to read that they said, \u201Cwe strongly support legislation which achieves the purposes set out in section\u00A03\u201D. With that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b52ab9f9b818419884c6a1b20824e314\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b52ab9f9b818419884c6a1b20824e314\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229fff6f384648435f9d13f2fafcba8d1b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e464ce3ebbd24a0f96db87da0f5f77bc\u0022\u003EPart 1  Substantive amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b45bd280264d49cb97307e80564bd727\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b45bd280264d49cb97307e80564bd727\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill. We start with Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 4 to 19, \u201CSubstantive amendments\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022eccad0f3b52c4b8387697bbe7ac9a201\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eccad0f3b52c4b8387697bbe7ac9a201\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002250b7d3b29a764bc7acbd00afd3f111aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250b7d3b29a764bc7acbd00afd3f111aa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? That is an objection. Right, OK. So we\u2019ll take Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002244400f2f39c8488da108b1f152487667\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244400f2f39c8488da108b1f152487667\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to make a few opening remarks. We\u2019ve heard tonight\u2014and it\u2019s really important for us to acknowledge\u2014how valuable our social workers are, and the essential support they provide to our most vulnerable communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe Government is committed to supporting and enhancing the social work profession so that our communities are served and supported effectively. This bill improves the efficiency and the effectiveness of operations carried out under the Social Workers Registration Act 2003. The Act ensures social workers are registered, competent, and accountable and that they follow professional standards. The bill makes 16 minor policy and technical changes based on the Social Workers Registration Board 2020 review to improve the efficiency and the effectiveness of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EWe are encouraged that there is general cross-party support for this bill, and outside of the bill we also know that there are workforce challenges for the social work profession, and given the speeches that were made by the Opposition before, they will be pleased to hear that the Minister has asked the Social Workers Registration Board to develop a robust workforce strategy and action plan to address workforce shortages. The Minister has also asked the board to work across Government to find solutions to systemic challenges facing social workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5971ad65c1f489199dd5c83b13ae9b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5971ad65c1f489199dd5c83b13ae9b9\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s really good to hear from the Minister. I want to congratulate the Minister for that type of k\u014Drero, because it is incredibly important going forward that we\u2019re not just looking at the technical amendments but we\u2019re looking at the wider issues. So I congratulate the Minister on that because we do have major workforce shortages at the moment. But more than that, as I said earlier, I was glad the Minister was listening\u2014unlike some of the other members on the other side, particularly Mr Meager and some of those others on the other side\u2014because there are wider issues at play, particularly in terms of pay equity. I hope that the Government doesn\u2019t buckle to the worker-bashing ACT Party that will not attend to some of the problems we have at the moment. I want to come to the bill\u2014it might be a good idea to come to the bill. But it\u2019s much\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cf12045b58f42eca6917564a6b7aae8\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Why bother?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bea7728b3cf24aa689364a87fc6bf658\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s a better recommendation, \u201CWhy bother?\u201D, because we all agree. So maybe I should talk to some of the broader aspects. Oh, no, just for you, Madam Chair, I\u2019ll come to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ccc1877d68d4631a1c8b787fce12ee2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: A question for the Minister would be really good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f35bc8ce7064c03a767fa5c0051e145\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have a question for the Minister on clause\u00A017, \u201CSection\u00A0116 replaced (Membership of Tribunal)\u201D, which I think is really important. One of the major kaupapa that sticks out in terms of what\u2019s happening with social workers is the shortage in terms of M\u0101ori social workers and support for M\u0101ori. I\u2019m wanting to know from the Minister in terms of the membership of the tribunal and just reading replacement section\u00A0116\u2014but I\u2019m looking at clause\u00A017\u2014there\u2019s a replacement section there in terms of membership of the tribunal: \u201C(1) The Tribunal comprises the following members appointed by the Minister: (a) a chairperson and 1 or more deputy chairpersons; and (b) at least 5 social workers to enable the Tribunal to be constituted; and (c) at least 1 layperson.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWas there any advice in terms of a M\u0101ori being on there? Was there any consultation made in terms of with iwi with regards to this particular clause? Has there been any consultation, particularly also with pan-tribal organisations? I ask the Minister: can she show us a consultation process with regards to this? Because with different iwi groups coming into play, particularly in Auckland with Tainui, and you\u2019ll see that with some of the iwi groups coming into play, there would have been a need for high-level consultation in this area so that we can get the right type of representatives on the tribunal. So what type of M\u0101ori consultation, what type of regard has been given in this area? I know it\u2019s an area that we considered before when we were in Government. How was the difference\u2014there\u2019s a difference, obviously, between Oranga Tamariki social workers, Wh\u0101nau Ora social workers, and mainstream social workers. I know that the others on the other side probably have never met a social worker because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022574c119274224e19adf6d7d0389b8c45\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019ve never heard a question that\u2019s so rambling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a43c03bfc644b829b3b4b5758381797\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they live in a different world, and that former failed Mayor of Wellington is one of them. They don\u2019t live in our world, particularly the former failed Mayor of Wellington. But I would like some of these questions to be addressed, because this tribunal is particularly important in terms of democracy and representation, and particularly in terms of M\u0101ori and indigenous rights. So has there been a consultation process? Has there been any work with iwi? Has there been any work with any of the pan-tribal entities? I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022836d159ab95442c39f20af5b343c3b5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022836d159ab95442c39f20af5b343c3b5c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The committee is suspended until 9\u00A0a.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202503256b124582d62849ba9e5639a130daa89d001533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 11.57\u00A0p.m. to 9\u00A0a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d6fde4119bd3494c849cd7efdd70e820\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 25 MARCH 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d18449a887eb40b994d96b98ed9d8b5c\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 27 March 2025)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a3466d25eb74fc69f2437f2db0a5b15\u0022\u003ESocial Workers Registration Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002236f295da4caf4b0a857d4c2b5a334458\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022104168aa36fc4b2fa9d1d3932e0fdde6\u0022\u003EPart 1  Substantive amendments (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00221901c0d7edfc44889078b6a7e4cabb16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221901c0d7edfc44889078b6a7e4cabb16\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, everybody. I hope everyone\u2019s had a good night\u2019s sleep. Members, the committee is resumed on the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill. When we were considering the bill last night, we were debating Part 1. Just to remind everyone, Part 1 is the debate on clauses 4 to 19, \u201CSubstantive amendments\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7468b67d2564faab7adfa84139f9c55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7468b67d2564faab7adfa84139f9c55\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to address a question that was raised last night by the Hon Willie Jackson around consultation with M\u0101ori, and just to confirm that the Tangata Whenua Social Workers Association was engaged with the amendments in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002231fe01cda30a47a0a43fd014b0d5db45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231fe01cda30a47a0a43fd014b0d5db45\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019d just like to ask the Minister for Social Development and Employment about a couple of things. The first is one that the Hon Willie Jackson started to talk about last night, which was replacement section 116, \u201CMembership of Tribunal\u201D. I have noticed something in that which I\u2019m not sure is correct, and that is that in subsection (2), it says, \u201CA person referred to in subsection (1)(a) must be a barrister or solicitor of the High Court of not less than 7 years\u201D. Now, I was actually going to ask about the seven years issue, but I\u2019ve also noticed that as part of the Bar, you are a barrister and a solicitor in New Zealand, and this is a barrister or a solicitor\u2014I totally appreciate that in layperson\u2019s talk, you are one or the other. I ended up being exclusively a barrister but I was still registered on the roll of barristers and solicitors of the High Court, because we have a fused Bar. So I do wonder if that is just perhaps an error that needs correcting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to ask about the seven years\u2019 practice, and what kind of field of expertise those barristers and solicitors will be drawn from, because it does seem that this is an area with specific knowledge\u2014and I appreciate there are five other social workers in the mix here, but this is an area where a knowledge of some areas of law will do you no good whatsoever and there will need to be some specific knowledge. Now, it doesn\u2019t mean that that can\u2019t happen under this law, and that that isn\u2019t the role of the selection process. But I would like to know what is that selection process, how will that work, and who will be involved in making those decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI also want to just ask a very separate question about clause 11, section 58 amended, \u201CRevocation of suspension or change to individual scope of practice\u201D. Now, none of us have spoken about that in our speeches, and I can see the point here that you need to be able to not only make the decisions but revoke them. But I would invite the Minister to comment on that section so that it\u2019s highlighted for the public. I have already asked a question about the reasonableness of any further suspension. Just because the person in the Minister\u2019s chair has changed, I thought I\u2019d just repeat that: it\u2019s just about what are the parameters of reasonable and necessary in terms of extending a suspension. I appreciate the need for more flexibility. Was there a decision made that that was something that needed to be very much on a case by case basis, and what kind of checks and balances are there, and therefore something that might be an abuse of that process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had, in the past, situations where people have been on suspension for enormous amounts of time. In my experience as an employment lawyer, it changes a lot whether you\u2019re being paid or unpaid. This particular Act has nothing to do with those settings, so, presumably, you could have people who are not being paid at all on a long term of suspension because it was deemed reasonable and necessary. So what is the guidance from the Minister as to how that clause would work? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002294d9320ac9904849b21b50435d2118b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294d9320ac9904849b21b50435d2118b0\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair. It\u2019s good to be able to speak on this piece of legislation and look at Part 1 as we\u2019re here on the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI was looking back and I\u2019m looking at replacement section 3, inserted by clause 4, around amending the purpose. There are a couple of things in there. I was looking at the original Act and could see the purpose, which is quite clear. I think it makes sense to me, but I just want clarification because, I\u2019ll be honest, I\u2019m a simple kind of person. But in replacement section 3, it amends the purpose and will replace \u201Cconsider complaints about social workers\u201D with \u201Cexercise the disciplinary powers over social workers conferred by this Act.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m just trying to, I guess, get clarity on why this is important, because I don\u2019t think it changes it a lot, but I\u2019m just trying to understand because, on the one hand, we\u2019re replacing to \u201Cconsider complaints about social workers\u201D with \u201Cexercising disciplinary powers.\u201D Now, they can mean similar things, but obviously the purpose of those two statements can actually be\u2014because one is \u201Cexercising\u201D something and one is \u201Cconsidering\u201D something. So I\u2019m wondering if the Minister for Social Development and Employment can explain why they landed on this change, and what it actually means for our social workers\u2019 registration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWe look at this and, across the Chamber, I am assuming that people know this is important, that this is something that\u2019s reviewed every five years, that we come into the space to look at, and that we need, obviously, to value our social workers but also make sure we get it right, because they are working with our most vulnerable, our young people, our elderly, our sick, those in prisons, those in State care, etc., etc. So in replacement section 3, the amendment here changes it from \u201Cconsidering complaints\u201D to \u201Cexercising disciplinary powers.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dc6ddd508e84e51a4b459950c6a4ae5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Got that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff4bb8019b24998b7758c743ab162d1\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: So we\u2019ll make that clear\u2014thank you, Madam Chair. You know, I did have a good sleep, but it wasn\u2019t long enough, was it? Was that in my head or was I saying that out loud? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe second part is\u2014and, again, I don\u2019t know if there\u2019s much difference here\u2014in clause 5, where it says to amend section 6(1)(c)(ii), which is to replace \u201Cdifferent\u201D with \u201Cvarious\u201D. So it goes from \u201Cdifferent ethnic cultural groups\u201D to \u201Cvarious ethnic cultural groups\u201D. Now, it just seems like semantics to me, but why is that important? What is the difference it makes? So looking up the different words, why would we change it? What would the emphasis be, to be \u201Cvarious cultural groups\u201D rather than \u201Cdifferent cultural groups\u201D? I guess, maybe, just for the benefit of the committee. As we progress as a nation, as we progress in terms of being more diverse, more inclusive\u2014and things like I\u2019m glad we\u2019re changing the language; it moves on further when we\u2019re removing some of that binary language. But the fact that we\u2019re changing it from \u201Cdifferent ethnic cultural groups\u201D to \u201Cvarious ethnic cultural groups\u201D\u2014why is that important and why does that make a difference? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00222ad95a447d914edcbdbcb48e7acba367\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ad95a447d914edcbdbcb48e7acba367\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do just want to remind the committee that this is a bill that was supported unanimously, there were only five submissions, and many of the changes are technical, including the change to the purpose, which the member Glen Bennett just mentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EIn terms of the previous questions around the tribunal, seven years is standard; that is not changing\u2014or it\u2019s not different from other tribunals. In terms of the selection of the members, it will have to be people who have got the skills and expertise to be able to make rulings in this type of tribunal. So there\u2019s nothing really complicated or unusual here; hence, the fact that there were only five submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00222c3904870cd94f25aac4632fbc1e82d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c3904870cd94f25aac4632fbc1e82d6\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Labour\u2014Panmure-\u014Ct\u0101huhu):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the opportunity to ask the Minister for Social Development and Employment a question, and, as she points out, the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill is unanimously supported. But can I just ask the Minister, please\u2014and this is in relation to the amendment to section 6(1)(c)(ii) in clause 5, and is following on from my colleague Glen Bennett\u2019s question. The amendment is replacing the word \u201Cdifferent\u201D with the word \u201Cvarious\u201D. What is the rationale for changing the word \u201Cdifferent\u201D and replacing it with \u201Cvarious\u201D, and how does this impact on the recognition of ethnic diversity in the social work profession? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EI ask this, Minister, as the Labour spokesperson for ethnic communities, as well as the chair of our Labour Pacific caucus. Does the Government acknowledge that \u201Cdifferent\u201D suggests different identities, whereas \u201Cvarious\u201D may dilute the recognition of specific cultural needs, and how will this wording affect the recognition of Pacific, M\u0101ori, and ethnic social workers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00229dec312ad01b40ee80f4fb9711d0d0dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229dec312ad01b40ee80f4fb9711d0d0dd\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E As I\u2019ve said, this is just a number of technical matters. When bills are changed like this, they reflect the language that the Parliamentary Counsel Office recommend, and that\u2019s been used with modern drafting techniques. To the member\u2019s specific question, it actually helps to remove the possible perception of marginalisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00228eda76ae160c41e8987f01d4f216adeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228eda76ae160c41e8987f01d4f216adeb\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a question for the Minister for Social Development and Employment, regarding clause 4, Part 1\u2014\u201CSection 3 amended (Purpose)\u201D. Understanding that under section 3(b)(ii) of the principal Act, it previously only considered complaints about social workers but now has expanded to include \u201Cexercise the disciplinary powers\u201D. I want to check, under the principal Act, Part 5, in terms of appeals and the right to appeal, would that encompass the broadening of the power that this section will have? As in, for a person to have the right of appeal, can they also, in that case, appeal the additional exercise of the disciplinary powers, on top of the complaints? So, for clarity, in this bill it is clause 4\u2014section 3 amended\u2014but if you look at the principal Act, which is the Social Workers Registration Act, it is section 3(b)(ii). But also, in that principal Act, under Part 5, there is a section on appeals. So I wanted to check with the Minister whether that right to appeal expands to the additional powers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002242feec923ec040e1a9c533a303d92169\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242feec923ec040e1a9c533a303d92169\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: For the member\u2019s information, that particular section has already been addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00229fc084cfeb514da182cdbd4a5987b4f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fc084cfeb514da182cdbd4a5987b4f1\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E As Part 1? The question on appeal has already been addressed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca0c3ce6c5a646c8968ac6e7ad66a759\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca0c3ce6c5a646c8968ac6e7ad66a759\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: It was raised, yes, by a previous questioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u00229c858f4d955e4ceabe9affda5f2003e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c858f4d955e4ceabe9affda5f2003e2\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226e16cdb6a5fc472d9f9c9f71198a3236\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000030\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022adab81317b86428cb65369182f025718\u0022\u003EPart 2  Other amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00228df3bfb5963945d68b8ca9770fd889d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228df3bfb5963945d68b8ca9770fd889d2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2, which is the debate on clauses 20 to 23, \u201COther amendments\u201D, and Schedules 1 to 3. The question is that Part 2 stand part. All those in favour, please say Aye, to the contrary, No. The Ayes have it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea41ead949dc4811a87c969e2683a513\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: The Noes have it\u2014party vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebf928347326400cb8eaf140493693f7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, a party vote is called for, Mr Clerk. Sorry, I\u2019d already started to put that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ee0025e76224401a8c12e557b57c301\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies, I had the wrong\u2014we\u2019ve got the vote now, anyway. I made a mistake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225319d42be3b34c0494766ede4411df5e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re not calling for a party vote? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f9ba30ff8d8412da826d5908e41ca03\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022102dfae6a13944d69ca15a747ae1270d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea8037dd14814b59b1d5da42545b179b\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: We are. [Clerk begins party vote] Point of order\u2014sorry, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcdbe8c61efa4fd7875c03f7dd38e791\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcdbe8c61efa4fd7875c03f7dd38e791\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re actually undertaking a vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d77d978e78d4d2086209e8101ad069c\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, can we raise it afterwards? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f1f8678e8604d72965b6717ca86974c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Does it affect the vote? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8db5d07a06f4714943cf6cd792c3c64\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I\u2019m just seeking clarity for the vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db111e85b51f413b900e477e409690b6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I\u2019ll hear the point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1f597a361384ddd908b8a7c5139ae55\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies. I\u2019m seeking clarification of whether the vote is that Part 2 stand part, or on the fact of whether we are considering the closing of the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d2e79533c8942fc973aa8b5a1aca6e3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: It is that the question is that Part 2 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2f8154bb6a7483f97496fa29553e718\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: OK. In that case, we are in support of the bill, so we do not need to call for a party vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f0908db93b74c3ead845dfe74a45a87\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: So, just to be clear, the question is that Part 2 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022738e86a7105b489d974b7c4db7879a28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022738e86a7105b489d974b7c4db7879a28\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 3 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002246e7a82e6f4f4d868e8f7599486d51cd\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002225359aa2a4d442b6a6cb2e71f4a3829c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225359aa2a4d442b6a6cb2e71f4a3829c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to clauses 1 to 3. This is the debate on title, commencement, and principal Act. The question is that clause 1 stand part\u2014oh, sorry. I call Glen Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022802bfbfa3014426f9f0b5195bda7f4ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022802bfbfa3014426f9f0b5195bda7f4ab\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014and it\u2019s still Tuesday, so I understand it\u2019s been a long, long day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just looking at the title and there seems to be no need to change it, to be honest. I agree with that. I just wanted clarity in terms of the commencement date. So this bill will come into force on 1\u00A0July 2025. What is the significance of that date? Is that three months from today? Is that the reason?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI just want to understand the reason for the date. Is it because we\u2019re moving forward and we want to make it happen? Is this within the legislative framework\u2014it is legitimately a three-month process\u2014or is there another reason for that? It\u2019s just so that we can be clear that it is to set things in place, and that the Social Workers Registration Board, with the work that\u2019s been done, will be up to speed and able to implement the changes that have been made in this technical piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022857ee76fb580439cacd43687ec7e6322\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022857ee76fb580439cacd43687ec7e6322\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E The date 1 July is a fairly standard date for legislation\u2014it\u2019s the first part of the next half-year, and it just allows sufficient time for the changes to be put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0ed8230424d4f66a7e265bc6661999f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0ed8230424d4f66a7e265bc6661999f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister, for that response in terms of the commencement date. Can I just check: so, the Minister for Social Development and Employment, then, is confident that, for example, if we\u2019re looking at clauses 18 and 19 of the amendment bill, in terms of switching over the power from the previous chief executive to the board system, the appointment process as well as the transition power will be complete under replacement section 116, inserted by clause 17? Oh, I think the Minister is getting\u2014is that a nod? That\u2019s a yes, or a nod that you acknowledge the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022929304136cae4be9bba4139b7cdbda3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022929304136cae4be9bba4139b7cdbda3e\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Just to clarify, Royal assent is the date on which most of the provisions come into place, but for other measures, it\u2019s 1\u00A0July to allow the transfer of those functions to occur. There\u2019s nothing surprising here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00222e389acd9e6f4a728ebef66161718a6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e389acd9e6f4a728ebef66161718a6e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226f59dee33dc64546b2ac96a10b97d4b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f59dee33dc64546b2ac96a10b97d4b7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eea2bfd434cd4a40bb72d0705680a5df\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00226c0ec897c3fc4ee9b84c116c6f1d2683\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c0ec897c3fc4ee9b84c116c6f1d2683\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill, and move, That the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281c89b65fd2c4636ad4efbd85af516c8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202fa7516c9314ff19ec4fe8c0431b42e\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to begin by acknowledging the vital support that social workers provide to some of our most vulnerable populations across New Zealand. They support their communities to ensure that people receive the assistance they need to live safe and fulfilling lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the Social Workers Registration Act 2003 to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of operations carried out under the Act. Collectively, the changes these amendments make will help ensure the Act is fit for purpose, and help support social workers to uphold their professional standards while delivering safe care to their communities. It highlights our Government\u2019s commitment to enhancing the social work profession and is a way to ensure that social workers are supported to serve our communities safely and effectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI want to just take a moment to quickly outline the six policy amendments in this bill. The first amendment broadens the grounds for interim suspension. Action will be able to be taken when a formal investigation is considered but not yet started. When there is sufficient evidence to believe an investigation is likely to begin, social workers will be able to be suspended in the period before the formal investigation starts. This change prioritises, of course, public safety, as people would expect, while, at the same time, addressing concerns about the social worker\u2019s professionalism or practice, while ensuring that the suspensions meet the criteria to maintain fairness. This change would reduce public safety risk to those served by social workers, keeping our communities safer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EAnother amendment allows for the extension of additional interim suspension periods from 10 days to a period that is reasonable and necessary for the board to complete their investigation. Currently, suspended social workers receive notices every 10 days, even when there\u2019s no change to their status, despite some investigations taking up to the average length, which is approximately 17 months. So, of course, it will just help manage communication more effectively, reducing any unnecessary stress from those repeated interim suspension notices while ensuring that the correct process is maintained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe bill ensures that the board\u2019s professional conduct committee will also become more efficient and flexible. An amendment will allow the committee to combine available outcomes for complaints or notices of conviction rather than being limited to one per case, allowing complex cases to be processed more effectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ETo improve efficiency, another amendment will allow the board to delegate its registration functions to employed staff. This change will reduce delays in the registration processes for applicants seeking social worker registration and would free up the board\u2019s appointed members to prioritise their responsibilities in governance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe fifth amendment clarifies the board\u2019s role in monitoring prescribed educational qualifications. While this function is already implied, this amendment would make it explicit in law and remove any ambiguity about the board\u2019s responsibility to monitor the social workers\u2019 qualifications that it prescribes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill will transfer the power to obtain information for investigating individuals who falsely claim to be registered social workers or who practice as a social worker without authorisation, from the Ministry of Social Development to the board. Shifting this function to the board ensures there\u2019s a single point of contact for the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EIn addition, the 11 technical amendments to the bill will address inconsistencies in the Act, streamline its operations, and update the language used. This aligns the Act with wider changes in how social workers are governed and contributes to enhancing the professionalism of the workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThere were a couple of concerns that were raised in the select committee, and they were out of scope of the bill, but I do acknowledge that social work shortages remain a concern for many. This has also been highlighted during the select committee process, and I acknowledge the challenges that that presents, both for the workforce but also for the people they serve. Work is under way to address those concerns, and I thought I would take the opportunity just to confirm that the board is starting to engage the sector on a workforce strategy and action plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThese amendments, I have outlined today, will help to ensure that social workers are able to effectively deliver critical services to some of our most vulnerable populations across the country. As this bill goes through the third reading, I want to thank the Social Workers Registration Board for their work on the 2020 review of the Act, which has, of course, led to the amendments that we\u2019re discussing today, and I want to thank the Social Services and Community Committee members for their review and their work on this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThanks to the submitters and a very big thankyou to the officials who worked tirelessly to ensure that the legislative changes we bring to this House will work. My final thanks, though, go to the social workers for the essential work they do in our communities, often in very challenging circumstances and dealing with New Zealanders that have very complex circumstances in their lives. I know that this bill will assist them and support their efforts and ensure the professional standards that they uphold each and every day. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa3d90b7f4484fd58ffda130c8ce52c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa3d90b7f4484fd58ffda130c8ce52c5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00227d5e25024f004a22a0e0056c1d567ddd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d5e25024f004a22a0e0056c1d567ddd\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. It is with thoughtfulness that I stand and make a call on this piece of legislation. And I acknowledge, in the last term of Parliament, actually, that you, Madam Speaker, and I were on the Social Services and Community Committee and got to spend many a time engaging with social workers, with legislation that is important to the lifeblood of our communities and of our people throughout Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWhen I look at this piece of legislation, the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill, it is a simple, technical bill, but it is one that we should always take seriously, one that should always be considered on, because our social workers play a huge role within our communities, within our schools, within our prisons, within our aged-care facilities, within our healthcare facilities, within communities all across the country\u2014and I\u2019m sure I\u2019ve missed many a part of where they involve themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI was thinking about the role of a social worker as we looked at this, because very much I believe legislation like this is around protection. It\u2019s around protecting not only the people that social workers work with but it\u2019s around protecting the social workers themselves. We need to fiercely protect our social workers\u2014that there are checks and balances in place for them, so that we ensure that they know the rules, they know the boundaries, but there are checks and balances, like the Social Workers Registration Board, that can be considered to make sure that we have the best people and the best places doing everything they can for our beautiful tamariki, our elderly, those who need support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAs I looked at the bill, and as we\u2019re listening through the stages over the last wee while, I was thinking, \u201CWhat actually is a social worker?\u201D You know, we generally know what they are on paper, or we kind of have an idea\u2014a social worker, they interact and often in dynamic circumstances and that sort of thing. But I just wanted to reflect, as we consider this legislation, on what a social worker is and what they actually do: a social worker is an advocate. They\u2019re an advocate not only for a person but it might be for a wh\u0101nau and for a community. They\u2019re a supporter. They\u2019re an empowerer. They\u2019re a listener. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EIn many ways, we look around our fast-paced world and the disconnection that has happened in many parts of society, and, often, a social worker is at a place where someone maybe is at the most needy point within their lives, and a social worker is there not only to be an advocate and a supporter but to be a listener, when they may never have been listened to before in that community or with that person. They\u2019re a protector, they\u2019re a guide, they\u2019re a connector, they\u2019re a healer, they\u2019re an ally, and they\u2019re a problem solver. I think that\u2019s one of the things that, as a society, we need to acknowledge and celebrate within our social work community: they are problem-solvers. Every single day, they go to work to love people, to care for people, to be allies and advocates and supporters, and to solve problems when, often, people have got to their wits\u2019 end and don\u2019t know where to go or what to do. We need to celebrate, acknowledge, and ensure that our social workers are not only resourced but protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAs I look at this legislation\u2014and yeah, it is technical, and yes, we do support it\u2014we also need to be reminded of the challenges within the social sector we have at the moment; the challenges we face with funding, the challenges we face with staffing, the challenges we face when it seems that a Government doesn\u2019t seem to care about what they are doing to ensure that our social workers are the best they can be and are the most well-resourced they can be. We look at funding cuts. We look at our workforce in terms of the percentage of people going through training and education to become social workers, the reduced hours, and the challenges that many social workers are facing, as well as the fact that many of our social workers are ageing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI was looking at the numbers: around 40 percent of our current social workers are P\u0101keh\u0101 New Zealanders. They\u2019re actually not completely representative of the people they\u2019re working with, and I believe that we need to be looking, as a Government, as a Parliament, and as a society, at how we ensure diversity and inclusion. How do we ensure that we make sure the people who are connecting and working with our communities look like themselves, sound like themselves? How do we make sure that we are putting the right funding and the right systems in place to empower our social workers to love and care for our communities, but also be representative of them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EIt is disappointing when I look at the pay-equity settlements for social workers and the fact that it feels like it\u2019s stalled and it\u2019s not going anywhere, when I look at the fact of the cuts to Oranga Tamariki and what\u2019s going on, and the implication that that has not only for our social workers and those who are doing the best that they can do\u2014but, of course, it affects our tamariki, it affects our wh\u0101nau, it affects our communities, and that is not OK, as a society, and it is not OK that we, in this Parliament, allow that to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThis legislation is important, but we also need to be critical and look beyond just what we\u2019re talking about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255031df5f0c3446fb7be72ce8cff95b9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Not for the purposes of this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c3cab66bb5741f7ba04b2f4d76ce22c\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: My next sentence was to be \u201CI understand there\u2019s a parameter within this\u201D, Madam Speaker. But we need to be looking at the big picture as well, because we can\u2019t look at just a piece of legislation in isolation; we\u2019ve got to look at it beyond that, in terms of where it fits into society. We need to get our social worker work strategy right. We need a plan. And it\u2019s hard to look and see what is going on when it feels like this Government does not have a plan for our most vulnerable, that our Government does not have a plan to fund, to equip, to empower, to resource our social work sector, to resource our community sector, to resource Oranga Tamariki. We need to look at this legislation today, as we are, but we have to look beyond that to see what we\u2019re doing to get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESocial workers are problem solvers, and we, in this House, need to be problem solvers, too. How can we work, how can we challenge the Government to look at how they\u2019re funding things, and that people actually are more important than profits? If we don\u2019t have people\u2014if we don\u2019t actually have people in the right places\u2014what is the point of having profits? Social workers are change-makers. Social workers are carers. Social workers are mediators. Social workers, often, are responders and often end up being first responders, because they can see the situation and what is going on and what needs to be done. They\u2019re counsellors, they\u2019re community builders, and they are a voice\u2014they are a voice for our community, they are a voice for society\u2014and we need to value them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThis legislation makes some tweaks\u2014which we agree with, which is good\u2014to protect, as I said, our social workers, to protect those they work with\u2014just to continue to modernise. But also social workers are a voice that should be speaking into every single electorate, into every single MP\u2019s office, allowing us to understand what are the critical needs at the grassroots of our communities. If we were listening, as MPs, if we were paying attention, if we were meeting with them, if we\u2019re reading the emails that they are sending us, we\u2019d know that there is a crisis in our country. There is a crisis of community, there is a crisis of funding, and there is a crisis of ensuring that the social work workforce is equipped and that we have the right people with the right expertise and the right training, and we need to get this right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EIn closing, I just want to point out a couple of changes that have been made. I asked the Minister for Social Development and Employment a question, during the committee of the whole House, regarding a simple word change\u2014I know, one of my colleagues, the Hon Jenny Salesa, also spoke on this\u2014changing the word from \u201Cdifferent\u201D ethnic and cultural groups to the reference \u201Cvarious\u201D. I actually went and got my dictionary out, had a look, and realised that, actually, it does make sense, because I think it\u2019s more inclusive. It allows more engagement. \u201CDifferent\u201D\u2014we talk about difference; that is \u201CI\u2019m different to you\u201D\u2014whereas \u201Cvarious\u201D is actually far more inclusive and brings more people to the table. So, when I looked at it, when I asked the Minister, when I read and understood, I feel comfortable, and, actually, I think it\u2019s a good thing. We need to look at \u201Cvarious\u201D\u2014not just at differences, but at what brings us together. Of course, then, there is replacing the term \u201Csuch as he or she\u201D with gender-neutral terminology. That\u2019s just simple stuff. That\u2019s just making a modernisation which allows for legislation to move into the 21st century and beyond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EOur social workers are amazing advocates. They are fighters. They are champions for wh\u0101nau, for young people, for the elderly, for our communities. There are people who need to be honoured, who need to be paid correctly, who need to be resourced, who need to be trained, and we must, from this House, support our social work wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00221debeb64fce144ff87bce4c3d98547d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221debeb64fce144ff87bce4c3d98547d8\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill on its third reading. I\u2019ve noted in previous readings, and others have commented as well, that this is about tightening the framework that we have to ensure that social workers can be looked after, but also that there\u2019s a level of accountability when things don\u2019t go right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis bill also does a lot of updating when it comes to language. As others have noted about modernising the language in our legislation, this is important, particularly, as others have noted, in the language around the gender references. So in Schedule 3, a lot of what this bill is doing is actually changing things like \u201Che or she\u201D to just actually say \u201Csocial workers\u201D. That is actually really, really valuable, because, at the end of the day, what we do have is a growing and diverse workforce in the social worker sphere. We do have more queer people in the social worker profession. Having gender-neutral language actually includes non-binary people and gender-diverse people in here, and it\u2019s great that the Government is actually getting on board with modernising legislation to be more inclusive of queer people who are part of the social worker profession. I encourage them to take this inclusive approach more broadly when it comes to other pieces of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis feels like a breath of fresh air when it comes to actually modernising legislation, because, at the end of the day, the core of this legislation does a bunch of other things. The core of this legislation is actually about tightening the screws when it comes to the accountability that social workers face. But there is an opportunity being taken in Schedule 3 particularly, and in Schedule 2 when it comes to how we talk about ethnicity, to modernise things. This is something that I think the Government could take the opportunity to review and do when they\u2019re amending other pieces of legislation to modernise them\u2014to actually think about whether the language we\u2019ve been using in legislation is up to date and reflects today\u2019s society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EMore importantly, I think, I want to commend the profession, because what we have right now is social workers that are working under the pump. The pipeline of training includes many low-income people who go into the profession to serve their own communities, and many are struggling to make ends meet while they are studying. What this means in practice is that we\u2019ve got people who may come from the lived experience of being on low incomes, of struggling to make ends meet, yet they go in a profession that is overworked and under-resourced. When we have the combination of people at the front line helping others do their best and yet are under-resourced, we set them up to fail and we create the conditions for mistakes to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAs I have raised in other contributions on this bill, it is critical, alongside this bill, to have better accountability mechanisms and that the Government genuinely invests in resourcing and improving the working conditions of social workers so that we set them up to be their best and avoid overworking and underpaying, which leads to social workers being stressed and tired and more likely to land themselves in the very same things that the bill is trying to tighten and improve, which are those accountability mechanisms that exist for when things don\u2019t go right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m thinking of a few things the Government can do, after finishing the third reading of this bill, to improve the social worker profession. One of them is to commit to improving the wages of social workers that are working in the NGO sector and the public sector as well. Many of our social workers do their placements at, for example, Oranga Tamariki, and then they go to work in those very same agencies. But their wages actually still mean that they struggle to make ends meet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAnother thing the Government can do, after the third reading of this bill, to make sure that the intent of this bill works is to explore things like paid placements to ensure that while social workers are learning, they are actually getting paid. What that means is\u2014and I say this as somebody who was a field educator for social workers before becoming an MP\u2014ensuring that when social workers are doing their training out in the field, they don\u2019t have to work multiple jobs to make ends meet and they can focus on learning, to ensure that they don\u2019t land themselves in the very same bodies that this bill is trying to make amendments to and change the language around, to ensure that, on the other side, when we do have someone working alongside a social worker who is being failed by a social worker\u2014because it can happen and it does happen and the consequences are often dire when it does happen\u2014we are able to reduce those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIf we take out the legislative jargon and talk about the real-life implications of what this bill is trying to do, it\u2019s about when a social worker is trying to support someone who is homeless, and if a social worker is trying to help someone get on to the right benefit or navigate a complex situation with their families and relationship to Oranga Tamariki, if the social worker isn\u2019t able to act competently for the person on the other side, it can be the difference between being connected to the community or not having a home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ETo me, this is why it\u2019s really, really important that the Government gets this right. We support the intent of this bill. We support modernising the very same bodies that allow social workers to be looked after and to have clarity around the level of accountability that social workers face. As I said earlier, so much more can be done to support social workers to make sure they are at their best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI did want to talk a bit about the Schedule 2 component of this bill. I think the Hon Jenny Salesa talked a bit about that in the committee of the whole House. A lot of this is about changing language, such as \u201Cdifferent\u201D to \u201Cvarious\u201D when it comes to ethnicity. I think that\u2019s important to reflect that \u201Cdifferent\u201D can be othering, so we have to be intentional when it comes to the language we use in legislation. If there\u2019s a place where language matters most, it\u2019s how we write law. So this is not just symbolic but an intentional way of reflecting a growing and diverse workforce, particularly because recently the House updated, or more like extended, the experience pathways for social workers to be able to be registered, and that was with the intent of ensuring that we can have more M\u0101ori and Pasifika and people with migrant backgrounds in the field. Therefore, the stuff we have in Schedule 2 is also recognition of this Government, with the support of the Opposition, ensuring that we do have those pathways for a more diverse workforce to enter into social work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI go now to the updating of gender references in Schedule 3. I really encourage the Government to review other pieces of legislation. It is about including non-binary people, but it\u2019s actually just about making that language clear. Why would we have language that repetitively says \u201Che or she\u201D, when we are actually referring to a very specific type of profession and person? For example, \u201Che or she\u201D could be \u201Capplicant\u201D, or \u201Che or she\u201D could be \u201Csocial worker\u201D. It is just common sense. If you\u2019re reading a piece of legislation and you\u2019re an everyday person in the public, what it means is that you\u2019re looking at the paper in front of you and you know exactly what the legislation and the schedule is actually referring to. In many cases, \u201Che or she\u201D is just referring to a social worker. So I think that\u2019s a really intentional piece that I wanted to go back to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to say that the other area the Government should be looking at post the third reading debate\u2014and I think this is something that\u2019s been raised with me, and I\u2019m sure with others, in relation to the social worker field\u2014is how our tertiary institutions are resourced to adequately be able to train social workers. There\u2019s been a lot of talk about the curriculum and how we ensure that social workers are adequately supported by those institutions. That has consequential impacts, direct impacts, actually, on what this bill is trying to do. One of the things I have noted, for example, is that, at the moment, because of that under-resourcing, many social workers aren\u2019t even trained properly to understand and navigate things like Work and Income, and that is reflected in the field. Many volunteer organisations are working with social workers who did not receive adequate training to understand the systems of Work and Income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI have had social workers, on the clock, being brought to organisations that have volunteers, to have volunteers explain to them how Work and Income works. That\u2019s not their fault. It\u2019s actually the broader system that ends up failing our social workers. So, once again, if we want to make sure that our social workers are deployed in the field in the most competent and supported way possible, to avoid them landing in the very same accountability mechanisms that we have and that this bill is trying to improve, supporting them in their training and in the field is critical to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWith that, we commend this bill to the House and we hope the Government takes further action to support social workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022 data-id=\u002296301dc937b0496b819384736067de37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296301dc937b0496b819384736067de37\u0022\u003ELAURA McCLURE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on the third reading of the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill in support from the ACT Party. I think this topic has been well canvassed. It\u2019s based on a review back in 2020. Extremely sensible to have a review of legislation and tidy it up where appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EI, firstly, just want to actually shout out to the social workers, because these guys are out there every day, and I know I\u2019ve got some family and some friends that have been with our most vulnerable children overnight on a night shift, getting home, and then dropping their own kids off at school. So I just want to say I acknowledge you and I see you this morning, and thank you so much for your hard work. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e2862d54ac74a9abb08d0e1fbf57398\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Laura\u2014sorry, Tanya Unkovich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b145f3111c404e62a0d86bda6c338c5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b145f3111c404e62a0d86bda6c338c5b\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s all right. Tanya Unkovich is my name. Thank you, Madam Speaker. On behalf of New Zealand First, I stand in support of the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003ELast night, during our contributions, I wanted to acknowledge all of the social workers out there for everything they had done. It was really great to hear the support from the other side. A little bit disappointing to hear a member on the other side use the reading of this bill to try and roast our party. I had the benefit of the mute button on my remote control in my office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022187f9ae474674c8583e1f365cdeeed4e\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: It was that troublemaker\u2014it was that heretic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257c79ba3f80349e3a1fc38aa967c2147\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, yes, no. And then, I believe the member opposite also went on to say that they didn\u2019t think that anyone on this side of the House probably even knew a social worker. I\u2019m not sure of the exact wording. Well, part of the prerequisite of obtaining my diploma in counselling was obtaining a certificate in social work. I\u2019ve spent many hours listening to people who are suffering, and I know what suffering tastes and feels like. So I would like to just say that members on this side\u2014there is always a story behind the face. So just a wee lesson there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EOn that note, there\u2019s nothing more to add. We\u2019ve all said enough on this bill. It is a technical bill and not a lot of controversy really. So I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022 data-id=\u00227b5e982cb5da4631b075f06b1c0f32cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b5e982cb5da4631b075f06b1c0f32cb\u0022\u003ETAKUTAI TARSH KEMP (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E M\u014Drena t\u0101tou. M\u014Drena e te Whare. I rise this morning to reaffirm Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2019s support for the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill. While we support the passage of this bill, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori remains steadfast in its long-term vision of \u201Cby M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori\u201D solutions that empower wh\u0101nau to determine their own pathways. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori continues to challenge systems that seek to control rather than uplift, and we will push for a future where M\u0101ori-led social services are the norm, not the expectation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EDon\u2019t get me wrong, social workers hold a vital role within our communities. Over the many years that I\u2019ve worked in the community, I\u2019ve worked alongside so many great social workers, and so many not-so-great social workers. This bill helps tighten the practice and supports the future pathway for those social workers in the field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EI want to actually take this opportunity to acknowledge a social worker who cared for me in the last seven weeks of last year, which I spent in hospital. I never thought I would need a social worker, because I didn\u2019t know why I would need a social worker, but, obviously, at the end of those seven weeks in hospital, I truly did need a social worker who could manaaki, who had aroha, who had compassion, and, at the end of the day, was able to keep the confidentiality of what I was going through at that time. So I want to acknowledge the social worker, Moana, who supported me at Middlemore Hospital, at Te Kaahui Ora Maaori Health Service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not an easy job being a social worker, I\u2019ve got to say. There\u2019s a huge, negative light on social workers within vulnerable communities, and especially within M\u0101ori communities. When M\u0101ori families hear the words \u201Csocial worker\u201D, they\u2019ve been referred to them for what? They\u2019re scared. They become isolated. It\u2019s like the police knocking on your door when you\u2019re told you\u2019re being referred to a social worker, because you\u2019re unsure of why that is happening. So we want to be able to change that, and we hope that this bill is able to help those social workers in the field change that negativity and light for our wh\u0101nau. We need social workers that are embedded and have the understanding of a tikanga-led, mokopuna-focused model of practice that will empower our mokopuna for future generations. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002238bf3d943463409cac24e46ede3dc270\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238bf3d943463409cac24e46ede3dc270\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise also on behalf of the Green Party to support this bill. I think we have heard a lot from across the House, but I think it does deserve mentioning every single time, the important mahi that our social workers do for Aotearoa every single day. It is important that we do have a sufficient safety net, but also recognition of that work, but also acknowledgment of the safety net for people that they support when something doesn\u2019t go well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn this case, when we are looking at this bill, there are a number of quality-of-life improvements that we\u2019re seeing when it comes to social workers and the rights of social workers here. Particularly, from us, the establishment of the tribunal and also the board when determining suspensions, or when addressing the issue of suspensions, is particularly important. It\u2019s something that greater clarity is needed, and we\u2019re hoping that this bill addresses some of that, and we\u2019re really looking forward to how we are going to be able to provide that level of confidence and clarity and transparency through this. So from that perspective, we\u2019re interested to see the work of the tribunal as it is established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAs we\u2019ve heard, there are also additional other quality-of-life changes in here that I think deserve mentioning, and this is particularly when we\u2019re looking at Schedules 2 and 3 of this bill. And I think this is something that my colleague Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March mentioned earlier in terms of the fact that replacing terms such as \u201Cdifferent\u201D with \u201Cvarious\u201D, and not having that othering effect\u2014particularly for M\u0101ori, for Pasifika, for migrant social workers and workers in general\u2014is incredibly important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWe are seeing that, with the latest census, the demographics of Aotearoa are changing. We are seeing record numbers of M\u0101ori\u2014proportion of M\u0101ori\u2014and also of Asians, of other migrants, of migrants of colour, and their visibility and their culture and their experience is an integral part to how our societies now operate. In terms of this, it is really heartening to see bills like this that actually highlight some of these, and the changing nature of some of that. The fact is that, when we are introducing legislation, when we are looking at public services, we\u2019re still seeing the fact that migrant workers, and also women and anyone with an intersectionality component, are often not only invisibilised or undermined but also that they simply are being paid a lot less in proportion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWith this particular bill, and with the broader picture\u2014and lots of people have been talking about the broader context of social work and our public services\u2014we would like to see other forms of legislation, or other measures and levers, to address the fact that we do not have pay equity in certain areas, from a gender perspective, for w\u0101hine M\u0101ori, for Pasifika women, for migrant women, who are some of the key workers when it comes to social work, because it is still predominantly a female-led workforce. As we have seen with other female-led workforces, there is a general assumption that just because you care, it means that you don\u2019t have to be paid as much. We have actually heard high-ranking officials and public servants who are in a directorship role or deputy-directorship role vocalising the fact that just because, you know, you care, they will keep taking on more burden, they will keep on burning out, and because they just care, we don\u2019t have to give them more pay. And I think this, both in the private and public sectors, is something that we definitely need to address.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFinally, I just want to say that it is incredibly heartening to see support from across the House for gender-neutral language under Schedule 3 of this bill. As we have heard previously, we are seeing a greater representation of our rainbow wh\u0101nau within the latest census, and we think that our trans and non-binary wh\u0101nau are an integral part of our social workforce as well. With that, we support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022884f020f4ae54abd8269233c1ef6a0a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022884f020f4ae54abd8269233c1ef6a0a4\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill enhances the social work profession in New Zealand. It also enhances the public safety aspect of the service that they provide. Registration elevates social workers to the level of other professions that require registration, like teachers, lawyers, and doctors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EI would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge that I believe that social work is a calling, and I thank everyone who has responded generously to this call and who works hard out there in often difficult circumstances. I end with a shout-out to the very many Filipinos who are social workers and who work all throughout New Zealand quite selflessly. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022210f8573ed7544788ce25232b0bc9a9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022210f8573ed7544788ce25232b0bc9a9c\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I definitely want to join that acknowledgement of the work that social workers do, but what I want to do is talk a little bit about the wider concerns here. This legislation is an attempt to make the registration network that belongs to the social work system stronger and, actually, a bit more autonomous, because the board will have five social workers on it, and it will become much more regulated by itself, as are other professions. But I want to really just focus for a minute on the incredibly critical role that social workers play and just acknowledge that currently that system is falling down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThe Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care noted the following: \u201CSocial workers should have been a critical lifeline to the outside world for children and young people who were being abused in social welfare care. However, the Inquiry heard from many survivors, as well as former caregivers and social workers, that social workers visited less frequently than department policy required them to, and sometimes did not visit at all. State documents reviewed by the Inquiry show that social workers\u2019 caseloads were often too high to effectively manage, which meant they visited children less regularly than required.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, that remains the case. We\u2019ve heard from many colleagues across this House that we know we have a shortage of social workers. We know that they\u2019re overloaded. We know that they\u2019re underpaid. We know that that group of social workers is 85 percent female, and that we have a problem in this country acknowledging that work that is caring work is valuable work and should be paid at a higher amount. So while this is a bill that really does improve the way that social workers are regulated, it\u2019s a small piece of the puzzle. I heard the Minister for Social Development and Employment say that this bill would ensure that the social workers would be able to effectively deliver services. Unfortunately, that\u2019s far from the truth. This bill will be a step in the right direction, but it will not ensure that they are able to deliver services. So I would ask this House to consider what will make that difference, because this is a critical role and currently it\u2019s falling short of the mark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe have, I think, 50 percent of the workforce who are over 50 in social work. We are under-represented, actually, in male social workers as well as other groups. But, mainly, we have an issue with an overload of work and the work burns people out. So we are going to have to build a different value into this work. We just cannot get away with what we have been doing. We need to make sure that our social workers are not leaving because of burnout, high workload, and poor pay; and that we\u2019re adequately supporting them in our system. That does not mean we should not hold people to account who do not do their job. Those things go side by side, and so it is good that we have put this bill in place, which is more nuanced and is also, I think, really interestingly, reviewed every five years. A very good way of handling a new situation is to review its effectiveness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EAll of that is good and Labour stands with the Government in support of the bill, but that doesn\u2019t mean that we don\u2019t see the big picture. We now have 7,520 people practising social work under licence in this country. We need to make sure that that workforce is fit for a new generation, that it\u2019s able to sustain itself, and that means we need to put our money where our mouth is. Thank you. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u00226ce2d3ee87f245abacf3fb32fa01d2c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ce2d3ee87f245abacf3fb32fa01d2c1\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Social workers play a crucial role throughout New Zealand, and it\u2019s a real honour and privilege as the member for Wanganui to meet with social workers on a regular basis, to talk to them about their mahi in our community. There are two things I wanted to note particularly about this bill in how it supports them and recognises their profession. Currently, you cannot be suspended as a social worker where there are concerns about your work, and this bill enables that to happen. It also enables the combination of outcomes for decision making about professional conduct, rather than being forced into choosing one of the outcomes, to ensure an effective resolution to a concern that\u2019s raised about a social worker. For these two reasons, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022afea6f2108ca486aa71dfa978374fda0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afea6f2108ca486aa71dfa978374fda0\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. N\u0101u te rourou, n\u0101ku te rourou ka ora ai te iwi\u2014with your food basket, with my food basket, things will be well for all of our wh\u0101nau, even up in Ng\u0101puhi!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ECan I take this moment to acknowledge all of our social workers across Aotearoa New Zealand. E mihi ana ki a koutou m\u014D te manaakitanga o t\u0101tou tamariki, t\u0101tou wh\u0101nau i roto i t\u0101tou hapori. T\u0113nei te mihi, t\u0113n\u0101 rawa atu ki a koutou katoa, ng\u0101 kaimahi tauwhiro o te ao nei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E[I wish to thank you all for caring for our children and our families in the community. My sincere thanks to you all, all the social workers of this world.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThat was just an acknowledgment to all of our social workers\u2014champions of our children, of our wh\u0101nau, our families, and our communities\u2014who really step up in a space where others can\u2019t, others are unable to, to ensure that the advocacy of our most vulnerable in this country is heard and that their rights are before them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill is important, and Labour supports it today because it will strengthen the regulatory framework for monitoring and governing social workers in Aotearoa New Zealand. This isn\u2019t a controversial bill before us today. Every five years or so, the Social Workers Registration Board works together with the Ministry of Social Development to review, to update, and to improve this particular piece of legislation. The last review, in fact, was conducted in 2020, under a Labour Government, and it is great to see that the changes proposed in this bill actually reflect the findings of that particular review. We also support the proposed amendments, because they align with our values of fairness, of social justice, of workforce sustainability, which I\u2019ll come to in a bit, and, of course, public safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThere are three particular points, or issues, that I\u2019d like to discuss in the House today. The first one: I have been working very closely with the North Shore Women\u2019s Centre, which has suffered quite significant cuts from the Minister for Oranga Tamariki and has reduced counselling and social work services to our North Shore community, from Glenfield right up to Rodney, restricting them back to only two days. The services available at this particular centre service almost 500 women across Auckland\u2019s North Shore and, of course, the children and families alongside of them. As this Government cuts back there, of course, so do those services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe question becomes: what is that risk? What is the outcome that we will see as a result of those services not being offered, the Government burying their head in the sand and not wanting to engage with these particular services or assist them with finding any alternative support mechanisms for that provision to continue? So can I just acknowledge the team at North Shore Women\u2019s Centre. We will continue to stand with you while others can\u2019t, and won\u2019t, and we will work together to ensure that those services continue to be made available on Auckland\u2019s North Shore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe second point here is, of course, about the workforce shortages that we experience\u2014of social workers. It\u2019s a tough job, it\u2019s not incredibly well paid, but any Government has to do more to ensure that we just keep up with the numbers required. There\u2019s an additional 142 full-time equivalent social workers each year that are required just to meet the population growth that we experience around the country. And, of course, I look to the Minister for Vocational Education and ask the question: what is it we are doing, with cuts to Te P\u016Bkenga, to the Tertiary Education Commission, and to universities forecasted? How can we ensure that we are growing a workforce to meet the demand that is in front of us, to ensure that we have practitioners available that are well trained, that know what they\u2019re doing, in order to support women, children, and families moving forward? I\u2019m not seeing that. I\u2019m concerned about that. While this is a small bill with technical changes, it\u2019s significant in the greater context of everything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ELastly, can I acknowledge the Government for making some step to the recognition of non-binary and trans wh\u0101nau, using gender-neutral language. I know many of them are scared of this approach. It\u2019s about the inclusion of everyone in this country. Mr Speaker, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022aeb9c199deb74676874de8e5a4baadad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aeb9c199deb74676874de8e5a4baadad\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E This is a good bill and I wish to acknowledge all those social workers across the country for the contribution they make to our community, including my sister, who is a registered social worker. I acknowledge Chontelle and all the work that they\u2019ve done. This is a great bill. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d2ddc36baef496ebc1211c0da8a4fee\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Moumou w\u0101, Dan\u2014moumou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee422430494e4a5ab551d0442d1d66dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee422430494e4a5ab551d0442d1d66dd\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E \u0100e. T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. Tautoko ana au i t\u0113r\u0101 k\u014Drero. \u201CMoumou w\u0101\u201D t\u0113r\u0101 k\u014Drero i t\u0113r\u0101 taha. He aha te k\u014Drero o t\u014D tuahine ki a koe e p\u0101 ana ki ng\u0101 mahi o ng\u0101 kaimahi toko i te ora?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E[Yes, greetings to the Speaker. I agree with that assertion. What they are saying on that side is a waste of time. What did your sister say to you about the activities of the social welfare staff?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI stand in support of the Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill. I was a member of the Social Services and Community Committee and sat through the submission process on this, so I want to acknowledge all of my colleagues that were on that select committee for this piece of work that we have done. As others have mentioned, this isn\u2019t a controversial bill; it does enjoy support across the House. The bill is straightforward in terms of recommending minor and technical amendments. These amendments, as has been said, have come out of a review that has been done of the legislation, and I, along with others, believe, that these minor technical amendments will improve this important piece of legislation for a very important sector and workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to join with others and acknowledge the social workers, the work that they do with our most vulnerable people\u2014such as children in care and the youth justice system\u2014in our health system, and in our aged-care system. I think that it has been important to draw the House\u2019s attention to the wider context in which this bill sits in terms of our social workers, in terms of workforce in that particular sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIn my contribution to the second reading last night, I pointed out my concerns that we do not have a workforce strategy for social work. But I am pleased to hear that Minister Penny Simmonds, who was in the chair last night on behalf of the Minister for Social Development and Employment who is sponsoring this bill, said that the Government is going to work on a workforce strategy and an action plan. I can\u2019t stress enough how urgent that is\u2014in meetings that I had this week, it was said that 13\u00A0percent are looking to leave the profession in the very short term and that we are unable to recruit the amount of social workers that we need into the profession. In fact, there\u2019s a downward trend of numbers enrolled, and over 45\u00A0percent of social work students leave the course before completion. We heard that the number of social workers that we need is not keeping up with our population growth, and we also know\u2014we know\u2014and have heard loud and clear from the sector, that the impacts of this Government\u2019s cuts to the back office of Oranga Tamariki has put more pressure, more work\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219fccb09aa354166b3a3e72532e26255\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Next time, don\u2019t spend so much, and then we won\u2019t have to clean up your mess. It\u2019s pretty simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ee4b1f0f4424beda54256c4370832a0\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014on the front-line social workers. Quite simple, is it? Quite simple to cut back-office jobs and load that on to front-line social workers? Quite simple, according to that member across the other side of the House. It says a lot about their priorities, doesn\u2019t it? They could have cut funding from other areas, like landlords, like tobacco companies. They could have taken the money from there, but, instead, you will take the money\u2014Mr Speaker; instead, they will take the money from Oranga Tamariki, who service our most vulnerable children and families. We will take $30 million from early intervention and prevention services from the North Shore Women\u2019s Centre, as was mentioned previously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229f5148336304a6bb5761355c9f18784\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Useless governing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206245afd2cbe450db670dea7509e06e8\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Mr Speaker, I was only going to make a short contribution to this bill, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3e8e2bcd634463ab10f36870ac96f7b\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yeah\u2014I believe that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259fed9e97c194b6aa995873c17381d07\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but, however, when you have comments like that from the other side of the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf76e8efc61547f4918c50ce8e1fc8cc\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd63225a17364d12a78eacddcb79c4a9\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014disgraceful comments like that from the other side of the House, when they would prefer us\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd92f8288c6444e4924fe9a0ddd3ec7e\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll tell you what\u2019s disgraceful: wasting New Zealanders\u2019 money. That\u2019s what\u2019s disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022724e7c3f37824d36ac8604098bb226cd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bates, I note that you had a speech, a very short one, which perhaps gave you the opportunity\u2014just short and sharp and not ongoing commentary, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fdd62cf7a004056a818199edaadd8b4\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Wasteful spending, that member says\u2014wasting it on servicing our most vulnerable children and families, on early intervention and prevention services. Cutting $30 million a year\u2014over $120 million. Wasteful spending? I could tell that Minister\u2014that member, not Minister. I could tell that member where that Government is wasting money: bad choices, wrong decisions, and wrong priorities. And this is supposed to be a non-controversial bill\u2014the bill isn\u2019t, but the wider context is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bc03deed42a48aba569d182612317b3\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Listen to yourself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8ec639fc0c44bd682d825eadab961e5\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Oh my gosh! Mr Speaker, now the Minister on the other side of the House is taking issue with what I am saying in terms of this sector\u2014tone deaf. Tone deaf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ELet me read you the headline, Mr Speaker, of an article: \u201CFears children will be harmed as Oranga Tamariki staff grapple with overwhelming workloads\u201D. The article says, \u201COranga Tamariki social workers say they are living with the constant fear that a child could be harmed on their watch due to their overwhelming workloads as they begin industrial action\u201D\u2014because apparently it\u2019s wasteful spending to give them a pay rise. They\u2019re not happy with the 0 percent offer from the child protection agency. They said it was insulting and would fix nothing about unsafe workloads. Tone deaf\u2014that\u2019s what I think of the comments from the other side of the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI will conclude my speech here, much to the delight of the other side of the House, I am sure. Labour was proud to have been part of this review and part of this legislation\u2014the drafting of this legislation, the technical and minor amendments that are being proposed here. We are proud to support this. We want to thank our social workers for the important work that they do in our communities every day. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u0022005f2a2ffbd945878267772c266c533f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022005f2a2ffbd945878267772c266c533f\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019d also like to commend our social workers for picking up the pieces for people when they come across families that are devasted by the effects of drugs, of methamphetamine. I do want to recall that the previous Government gave $2.75 million to the Mongrel Mob, but our social workers that we\u2019re commending around the House today\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b7c1204035140b8b5979c95ef215868\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Meth has gone up 95 percent, Rima. It has doubled in the last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba98c4cb08a64a30ac70f014c1deffe0\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014have to deal with the mess that that wasteful $2.75 million to Mongrel Mob has created.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022addde8a6b5e9499a98c43c082715fb44\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s your Minister doing about that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e062c4d05e114ba7b70f8b8e6821540b\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019d like to do is I\u2019d like to commend the Social Services and Community\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cdab5edd3a4438789fb6cb88c58e330\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: You have no plan to reduce meth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267054e19f0894003b08d8fb4db298c96\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Committee for the work that they did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd894fdf79974c88839a0aae894c9f1e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Prime, having been on the receiving end of an equal barrage, I thought you might like to actually take cognisance of the advice I gave to Mr Bates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253eadbd26e2c4bd3bb91123bc7855fb8\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE\u003C/span\u003E: This Social Workers Registration Amendment Bill is a logical, a practical, a sensible, and a positively impactful bill, and is part of changes that we\u2019re making to demonstrate our Government\u2019s commitment to supporting our social workers. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e764ad1fb34c487189c27e6d38d81bff\u0022\u003EFisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002282e0f2189274471596aabfe7f6ad8665\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000187\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 17 October 2024.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u0022313fd6263e6e4ca4b16151e1b829d3e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022313fd6263e6e4ca4b16151e1b829d3e3\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It gives me pleasure to rise on behalf of ACT to talk on the Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I want to first start by thanking the Primary Production Committee, ably chaired by my colleague Mark Cameron, and his colleagues on that committee who have done some excellent work looking at this bill. I also want to note that it has been unanimously recommended that the bill passes, and all the amendments that were made through the diligent work of that select committee have also been unanimously recommended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254a39c3f43294c1985140d95b0fdffca\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Best select committee in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022637b4e56bdf54a7b890aba8045b3b861\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, best select committee in the House, Mr Abel tells me, and, again, I want to acknowledge his contribution to that select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003ELook, this bill, just to recap, is important in ensuring that New Zealand meets its international obligations, particularly around preventing illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing\u2014better known as IUU, which is a fun little acronym for this time of the morning. It does ensure that New Zealand regulations are around New Zealand - flagged operating vessels operating in our waters; also ensuring our ability to combat this illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing; and also making sure that we do, as I said, fulfil all of our responsibilities as a responsible citizen operating in international fishing regimes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EThis bill has been, as I said, extensively examined by the select committee. They did receive some submissions\u2014six submissions\u2014and they actually heard from two submitters. As I said, they\u2019ve done some really great collaborative work on this bill, and so it is my pleasure, on behalf of ACT, to recommend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe27587561d74cba85f37f4532b04049\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe27587561d74cba85f37f4532b04049\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I\u2019m very proud to support this bill. It\u2019s about protecting our deepwater fishing industry and it\u2019s an industry that contributes $2.7 billion to the New Zealand economy, $1.6 billion to GDP, and employs 8,500 people. This bill\u2019s about sustainable economic growth and it\u2019s about being, as my colleague alluded to, a good neighbour and trusted and responsible global trading partner. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccd5d9738c124bd7ab5bf3191e98ffe5\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, thank you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002239eacb5a2b634d5bb1f7341297fa13a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239eacb5a2b634d5bb1f7341297fa13a4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ec7d876fec64569a5b2ba16662b7bc2\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Which call am I taking? We seem to have missed a whole number of calls from the Government benches maybe, but regardless\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022620a3970205b481692c7d57179c26c8b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: A M\u0101ori Party call, but they didn\u2019t take it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbcd2369054443359979859630db8f2d\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I did go to stand, but today I\u2019ll speak for myself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd4cf5c50a6e4301915c6b8cbdfe8896\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Carry on. I did take a stand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd64051ed5d94b9b8717a4d815849e28\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226221c913de204b46977b7d67ecb0ff21\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Did you stand to take that call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ace182540d9642c5a98958ef19bf22df\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: I did take the stand, but somebody was already on their feet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b085d6dc6df24c85b327b86825b48de0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, I did miss that. So we\u2019ll put things right back into sequence. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u00225c1e94a93b244a0c9384c01c343db329\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c1e94a93b244a0c9384c01c343db329\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E M\u014Drena, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. We support this, obviously, and all the work that\u2019s gone ahead. This is coming from my own precious home back in Te K\u0101eo. Ikanui is a very important, special name, as the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries will know, and we come for those things. Even my tupuna Ikanui\u2014they call him that\u2014looks like a fish, and we are known to even sound like fish when we\u2019re speaking M\u0101ori. So in all of that and to all of the work that has gone on in the Primary Production Committee, of course we support this. We are about fish and everything that comes out of our wonderful fine oceans in Te Aup\u014Duri land, but I\u2019m just making sure we take to our feet to support the work that this House does for all of our wh\u0101nau and all of our hap\u016B and our iwi, particularly Aup\u014Duri, particularly Te Tai Tokerau. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4de6d5b336c436d86eea4e153a3ccfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4de6d5b336c436d86eea4e153a3ccfe\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Very pleased to be standing today in support of this bill, particularly when we\u2019re at a time when we really need cross-party collaboration and the attention and the energy of us collectively in this Chamber to actually make good decisions in the environmental space. This is a really great example of some much-needed legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI really want to thank, for the work that\u2019s gone on in the evolution of this bill, particularly, the Primary Production Committee who has considered it. I want to reflect that I had a very privileged experience of just a snapshot of experiencing and visualising the enormity and the vast expanse of our oceans. That was when I took up a role for the Department of Conservation to run the science and biodiversity contracts on Rangit\u0101hua\u2014Raoul Island\u2014in the Kermadecs. It\u2019s roughly 1,000 kilometres from T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland. That involved a five-day sailing trip on this beautiful yacht the Tiama. But throughout those five days, you can\u2019t help but be distinctly aware of how vulnerable our oceans are in terms of there not being eyes out there. There are simply not eyes out there. After those five days, by the time we arrived on Rangit\u0101hua\u2014Raoul Island\u2014again, it was absolutely striking, the views of the ocean and the immense challenge of actually having eyes and patrolling and monitoring challenges that our whole entire agencies actually have in front of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ESo we do have these major challenges, particularly with these vessels that may be operating outside of our exclusive economic zone in international waters. There\u2019s a number of issues which this bill luckily, I\u2019m pleased to see, addressed. The one that is very unfortunate that it didn\u2019t extend to is, of course, the workers\u2019 rights when they are in these operations on these vessels\u2014extremely poor and challenging working conditions experienced by these workers. We know that a lot of the issue with illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing is that it\u2019s often not the bad guys who are coming from overseas. Unfortunately, often it is legal, regulated vessels who do their reporting who step outside the bounds of what is legal and undertake illegal activities. So I really support the work that\u2019s come with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWe would love to see, as Te P\u0101ti K\u0101k\u0101riki, more cross-party collaboration, particularly in the oceans and fisheries space. But I need to bring up the example of T\u012Bkapa Moana, where the Government are starting to make moves towards protecting just a tiny slice of that. It would only take things to 6 percent protection. Yet the Government is still considering opening up these high-protection areas within those proposed marine protected areas to commercial fishing. We cannot keep behaving like this, and we cannot keep not recognising the importance and the significance of our oceans not only to functional ecosystems and a functional planet but to the wellbeing of us. There\u2019s no place where that is more obvious than oceans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ESo I really, again, support the work that\u2019s been done and want to thank those that have been involved. Te P\u0101ti K\u0101k\u0101riki will absolutely support the passing of this bill and look forward to similar collaborative work. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f78c9994dec34c14b1abf897cd728f8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f78c9994dec34c14b1abf897cd728f8b\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pretty straightforward bill, this, really. It amends the Fisheries Act 1996 so that, as our colleague said over there, we can better meet our international obligations regarding illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing, and it also improves clarity and efficiency of statutory provisions and associated decision-making processes. So this update is just that. It\u2019s clearer, more efficient, and more reasonable. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022c83237a9c8354ecc8238de4e5269cfe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c83237a9c8354ecc8238de4e5269cfe3\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E This time, Mr Speaker, and apologies for my assumption that the Government members weren\u2019t taking their calls\u2014that\u2019s my bad. Perhaps they will forgive me, given that, of course, we were in this Chamber at midnight last night because, for some reason, we are in urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re talking about the Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, which has been around for a bit of time. Of course, we see in the Chamber that the date is still on 25\u00A0March, when, in fact, we are now on 27 March in normal people\u2019s time. Regardless, I want to note that this bill used to be in my name. So of course we are supporting this bill, and I\u2019m pleased that it has progressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also pleased that the Primary Production Committee has made a very considered report back on the bill. It has recommended a number of changes that, on the face of it, look very sensible, and I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll be able to ask the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries some questions about those in the committee stage. They all appear to be clarification changes, to make sure, for instance, that the chief executive can take into account any previous non-compliance in any jurisdiction\u2014that\u2019s one of the changes that has been made. As we\u2019ve heard from Todd Stephenson before, a large part of this bill is about illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing\u2014the IUU. We know that there were six submissions and two oral submissions made, so I thank all those people who have been involved in that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI just want to finish what is a short contribution in this second reading of the bill to make a call, again, just like my colleague Lan Pham has with her bipartisan plea on these fisheries matters. We can work constructively. We were working constructively on the Hauraki Gulf. That bill was reported back unanimously, just as this one has been, and yet we hear that there are going to be some changes that were not part of the select committee process. That is very poor form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWhat is good form is when a sensible piece of legislation that has had a lot of input from officials who deal with international fishing\u2014which is an interesting thing and it\u2019s, obviously, outside of New Zealand waters. So these people, they go to the international conferences\u2014some of the only international agreements in the world have been on fishing\u2014and they do a very good job. This has been taken to the select committee, and, as I said before, the select committee has made a considered commentary. Now, it\u2019s coming back to the House, and I\u2019m sure that the Minister will be wanting to answer any questions in the committee of the whole House on the bill as it was when it was looked at by the select committee and as it was when the submissions were made on it at that select committee. So it has gone through that process where the select committee had it for a good amount of time, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThis is how lawmaking should be done in this country, and I would implore the Government to take this approach on many other bills. Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u00222336bb9bcaf34f6ab7914a1c4552c115\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222336bb9bcaf34f6ab7914a1c4552c115\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, I\u2019ve been subject to your effective action with violations in the House today, and, interestingly enough, this bill ensures effective action can be taken in the event of fishery violations on our seas. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00227a3017d798a24646a72a30f4114d17f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a3017d798a24646a72a30f4114d17f3\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Just to continue the theme from the Hon Rachel Brooking, who was the Minister in the previous Government responsible for this. This has been very much a work based on collaboration with successive Ministers and the Primary Production Committee coming up with something that is unanimously, I think, supported across the House. Illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing is one of those global commons issues that we have to work with international partners to come up with a regulatory regime that works but, importantly, also the compliance machinery to make sure that we can actually make a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting to read that we pride ourselves in New Zealand on our vessels and our fleet following the rules, but there are reported instances of New Zealand vessels on the high seas actually operating outside the law, so to speak, so it\u2019s very important that we get this fixed up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe only other thing I would note is that the Hon David Parker gave a foreign policy speech in the Parliament this morning, and one of the things that he raised was, in the Pacific, it\u2019s very important that New Zealand really steps up and works with Pacific nations on a number of fronts, particularly economic development. The sustainable and effective management of the fisheries resource to promote both the economic development of Pacific Island economies but also the proper stewardship of that resource is something that we need to really turn our minds to. I know that the current Minister for Oceans and Fisheries has worked in that space and, I\u2019m sure, has a lot of views about it. Labour is happy to support this bill in its passage through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00220e1fa1a786ea430db687668fe8a695f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e1fa1a786ea430db687668fe8a695f6\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I rise to support the Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the Primary Production Committee; I was privileged to be part of the select committee as we navigated this very important bill through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EIt was great to be able to talk about the value of our fishing industry to New Zealand, the $2.7 billion industry. Of course, the purpose to uphold the integrity of this very important industry that we wish to grow as well\u2014so this bill is a very important part of that. We want to put New Zealand up on the global stage and meet our international obligations. With that, I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002293154e51d3e64b4aa75ea9ff1483cd89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293154e51d3e64b4aa75ea9ff1483cd89\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ll join the chorus of support\u2014the sort of unity at times around the House in supporting this bill. I do want to acknowledge the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, who is progressing this, including my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking, when Labour introduced this back in August 2023. I had the privilege of sitting in on the Primary Production Committee. I\u2019m not a member of that committee, but I did sit in for the purposes of hearing submissions on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhen we have a look at the select committee report, which is usually what we do at this particular part of the process, at the second reading, it identifies that there were six submissions. So that\u2019s not a huge number of submissions, but when we look at the nature of those submissions, they were well-thought-through; they were very representative; and, actually, it really demonstrates the power of the submissions process. I know the select committee report identified one particular submitter that focused on one issue, which comes to working-day times in terms of appeals and the legal process that has initiated the change as a result of that. I\u2019ll tease it out a little bit when we get to the next stage of the committee, with the Minister; I\u2019m sure he\u2019ll be looking forward to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut this is a bill that is important to protect the high-value access that we have in markets when it comes to seafood. It is one that looks to provide a little bit more scoping around those three specific issues of illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing. And, in that context, I certainly support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u0022db77feb936184c5d9280a86aa3c3825d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db77feb936184c5d9280a86aa3c3825d\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to take the last call in this reading of the illegal, unregulated, and unreported fishing bill. Look, I think it makes perfect sense. I can sense bipartisan support across the House for this bill, which is good. The bill essentially requires permits for all fishing by New Zealand vessels outside New Zealand waters, which closes the gap that was there previously. We have to do our bit for sustainability and to look after our fisheries and those of our neighbouring nations. So with that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226e086df2349648e7b2d83350a8d24606\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e086df2349648e7b2d83350a8d24606\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for the Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022606f245516eb4ef985b282917c720896\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b21e9e9c77754cc8b33f1b010c77a83d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b21e9e9c77754cc8b33f1b010c77a83d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022773bfe4da5f5458993814b5b7e0da98c\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Fisheries Act 1996\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228efeff3ff9ab4d8682b4387bcb007021\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228efeff3ff9ab4d8682b4387bcb007021\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We come first to the debate on Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 3 to 61, \u201CAmendments to Fisheries Act 1996\u201D, and the Schedule. The question is that Part\u00A01 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b97c18e3c9934a2ea627ef69d2c2d056\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b97c18e3c9934a2ea627ef69d2c2d056\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I shall take a short call for what should be a relatively uneventful set of exchanges in the committee. This bill is on an area that I\u2019ve sought to distinguish myself in\u2014that is consensus, shared interests, and finding common ground in the area of natural resources and fisheries. It\u2019s important that we acknowledge that this is part of an international effort, and, indeed, recently, I was in Honiara on behalf of our Government. A great deal of interest was directed towards New Zealand as to when we would actually pass this legislation to enable us to stand with a bunch of other nations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe need to be mindful, as the legislation is implemented, that future leaders in the bureaucracy maintain a sense of balance, because the fishing industry, as you well know, is a wildlife industry, and from time to time certain lapses do take place, but, by and large, I think all members of the committee realise that our reputation as a fishing nation, our reputation internationally, is second to none, and I see very little reason as to why our committee stage should be protracted. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002215bca6be6d214100b0070f7e4ae8f340\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215bca6be6d214100b0070f7e4ae8f340\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you, Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, for those introductory remarks about working towards consensus. I\u2019m very pleased to hear that. My first question is relating to the changes from the Primary Production Committee. I note that there are no Amendment Papers on this bill, so we can look at the tracked-change version of the bill in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe first change is at clause 29. This is regarding new section 113HA, \u201CCriteria that must be met before international fishing permit is issued\u201D. The vessel must be registered, and then there is a change from the select committee that the applicant vessel must be authorised by a relevant foreign country. It says, \u201CFor an international fishing permit \u2026 the applicant vessel must be authorised by the relevant foreign country to fish within that country\u2019s national fisheries jurisdiction.\u201D I take that to mean that if New Zealand was looking at issuing a permit, say, just for example, to a Norwegian vessel, that Norwegian vessel has to be authorised to fish in Norway. I\u2019d just like confirmation that that is the Minister\u2019s expectation as well, and if he would like to comment at all on the discussion that the select committee had on that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022daa6980f52e84d7ca84ef63ead16e8dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022daa6980f52e84d7ca84ef63ead16e8dc\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have a number of questions for the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries. I\u2019m going to start with clause 5. This is seeking to amend Part 4, specifically section 32. Now, this relates to \u201CCriteria of eligibility to receive provisional catch history for quota management stock\u201D. One of the interesting things that seems to flow through the bill is a change in the descriptor when it comes to, largely, the chief executive being authorised to make certain decisions, so I\u2019d like to point the Minister to what is a proposed new subsection (2A) and specifically paragraph (b), subparagraph (ii). This is talking about the ability for the chief executive to basically take an action or make a decision, and it refers to \u201Cwhat in the judgement of the chief executive was a valid authority to take the stock using a New Zealand ship\u201D, and it flows on from there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: is the use of the word \u201Cjudgement\u201D appropriate because, throughout this bill, there are actually different descriptors that that are used? If we look at clause 7, it\u2019s talking about \u201Cin the chief executive\u2019s opinion\u201D. I think elsewhere it\u2019s talking about \u201Cin the consideration of the chief executive\u201D. So this is about consistency of language and whether or not there is a specific reason as to why there is a difference in utilising the word \u201Cjudgement\u201D when it comes to clause\u00A05, \u201Cconsideration\u201D elsewhere in the legislation or in the bill, and \u201Cchief executive\u2019s opinion\u201D in clause\u00A07. So I\u2019m wanting to know about the inconsistent approach and then the rationale behind that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other part of that is, in some parts of the bill but not in clause 5, there is, effectively, if not a list, a sense of direction provided as to how the chief executive would go about\u2014or things that they would need to consider in exercising consideration, opinion, or judgment. And so my follow-on question to the Minister is: what\u2019s provided in the bill to drive the decision-making process that the chief executive would undertake when engaging in things, particularly when it comes to judgment? I don\u2019t know. It might be that the use of the word \u201Cjudgement\u201D is consistent elsewhere in the bill or in other legislation, but I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s thoughts on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00223c82cfdc6e734e148030b32a0e142d77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c82cfdc6e734e148030b32a0e142d77\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E If I can refer first to the question from the former Minister the Hon Rachel Brooking, I am assured by the officials that before any vessel goes wandering off fishing in international waters\u2014or, indeed, in other nations\u2019 waters\u2014our officials will need to establish that they have a legal entitlement to actually fish; perish the thought it should be in Norway, but in more proximate nations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOn the question of Mr Utikere\u2019s question, which, really, poses the question, possibly of trust or confidence, about the judgment that will be exercised by the bureaucracy in the future, I think the bill clearly states that it\u2019s within the ambit of his or her decision-making power that they take account of actual fishing history. As I said, from time to time, fishing boats do find themselves in a situation where enforcement action might be taken against them. But, by and large, these are relatively insignificant matters, and the director-general needs to balance such blemishes against the ongoing need for New Zealand to have a flourishing and robust industry. I have every confidence that our bureaucracy will not be swayed by faddish ideology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002243319e3a11ca4aa58939a0a490765736\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243319e3a11ca4aa58939a0a490765736\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. Greetings to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Shane Jones, who, amongst other things, used to be the chief executive of Te Ohu Kaimoana and also an ambassador for New Zealand in respect of the Pacific territories under McCully, when Murray McCully was the Minister of Foreign Affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMy question arises from clause 42, and thereabouts, of the bill. The underlying ill that has attempted to be remedied by this bill is illegal, unreported fishing in the Pacific area in particular. We don\u2019t have much of a problem with this in New Zealand, because we\u2019re well able to police our exclusive economic zone (EEZ) in a way that Pacific Islands find difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIllegal activity both within other countries\u2019 EEZs and on the high seas is something that worries New Zealand. I am sure that the Minister in the chair has seen the control room\u2014I forget which Pacific nation houses it\u2014but it takes data from American sources and other sources, including New Zealand, and monitors the place of fishing fleets in the Pacific. It relies in part upon transponders that are on each of those fishing vessels throughout the region. That information is beamed up to satellites, comes into the control centre, and then there is an ability for those monitoring fishing in the region to see where vessels are. But occasionally, the vessels go dark. They turn off their transponders and they stop transmitting data. That is an indicator, sometimes, of illegal activity, where the fishing boats are turning off their transponders so as not to be visible to the countries in whose EEZs they might be about to move into, and, as a consequence, this facilitates, or is part of, the illegal and unreported fishing that we have in the region. I had hoped the Minister might pay attention to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252d789587d1f40d3b119f695eac4d18a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I was just going to say, if you could just hold up, I\u2019ll stop the clock, and we\u2019ll just wait while\u2014the Minister\u2019s obviously taking advice, so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223606d81bd16f4adc828d22674246fb9b\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am following, Mr Parker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a88afd7d0f3b48d28337d0553700f1b1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, and I\u2019m sure the Minister knows more about these issues than I do. So we have this problem in the Pacific, where the most important financial resource, not just a food source but a financial resource, in the Pacific Islands is often their fishing resource. The revenue they make from fishing is sometimes their highest source of revenue to Government, and one of the highest sources of income to the countries. So the protection of that resource, both in a sustainability sense but also in terms of maximising the economic reward that can be returned to the Pacific countries, is absolutely one of the most important things that happens in the Pacific. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI\u2019m supportive of this legislation, but my questions for the Minister are, firstly: is he concerned about vessels going dark and illegal activity in the Pacific? I can recount a discussion that I had, when I was Minister of fisheries, with Talley\u2019s. I asked them why Talley\u2019s had stopped participating in fishing day schemes in the Pacific\u2014that\u2019s a scheme under which a company bids for a number of rights to fish on a certain number of days, which is a proxy for a control on volume\u2014and I was told by the senior people within that organisation that they can only fish for 24 hours in a day, which was, effectively, them saying that there is fraud in the Pacific Island fishing schemes, with some people pushing the boundaries of the rules and fishing when they\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got dark vessels, we\u2019ve got other vessels that are fishing with fishing day permits in different countries, but they\u2019re not abiding by the terms of those. Those are my first two questions about the Minister\u2019s concerns about that, but if I could have an answer to that, and then I have a follow-up question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002268585e24d22c4092b737e049c1d1a18f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268585e24d22c4092b737e049c1d1a18f\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like a few minutes to explain this. The Goldilocks zone in Pacific fisheries is 10 degrees above and 10 degrees below the Equator. Coming south from 10 degrees is a large fishery. It\u2019s often the albacore fishery, and the small Mosquito boats are continually working in international waters. A response from New Zealand and the Pacific nations was to require such vessels to unload their catch in ports, thus enabling investigators or officers to board and check. This is an ongoing challenge to our neck of the woods because not all nations abide by that. The conditions upon the Mosquito fleet, if I can speak figuratively, are such that very few New Zealanders would survive on those vessels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, coming back to the largest pelagic fishery in the entire world, which is managed in the following way: the nations belonging to the Nauru agreement have bound together, including Tokelau and, as an associate, the Cook Islands. They run a scheme that you purchase days and you can catch as much fish as you like within that day. If, however, you catch nothing, then you\u2019ve paid for an infertile day. They have also now\u2014and Micronesia is leading the pack\u2014created a situation that they will not sell entitlements to any fishing nation who does not bring the vessel back to a port and disgorge from the actual vessel that\u2019s caught the fish on to a larger mother ship, for want of a better expression. They are also moving towards a situation that they will not sell days to nations that focus exclusively on taking fish from the high seas. This piece of legislation is enabling us to join with other nations to board and inspect those nations that are taking fish from the high seas, which is administered under the United Nations. The Primary Production Committee, of its own volition, created this body of work, and one of the outcomes that we are addressing and passing today does enable New Zealand to achieve some of the outcomes contemplated by the various working parties of the United Nations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe do have a problem with various nations turning off their transponders and trying to avoid detection. And the money that\u2019s recently been spent through our Air Force does enable New Zealand to participate in initiatives called Operation Kurukuru and other such things, where the French, the Aussies, the Americans, and the Kiwis from time to time work together. We do spend over $8\u00A0million to $9\u00A0million in Honiara at the FFA, the Forum Fisheries Agency, as an adjunct organisation of the broader Pacific Islands Forum. We have been the leading nation in that regard. Each year, we are endeavouring to boost our institutional investment in the island nation States. I don\u2019t want in this Parliament to cast aspersion upon any particular island nation State, but I\u2019d encourage those of us who are interested in geopolitics in the Pacific to follow it assiduously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOn the question of what practically is likely to happen now we have these powers\u2014we\u2019re giving, essentially, to the Ministry for Primary Industries these powers\u2014we will now increase our ability to surveil our own fleet, which I must say is modest in size, although Sealord, for a long period of time, has had the wheel watch, catching alfonsino, catching orange roughy, out of Mauritius and out of Cape Town, in that part of the Indian Ocean. But that vessel is not registered in New Zealand; it\u2019s registered in the Cook Islands. So although we have a modest fleet, there is a huge expectation that Kiwis\u2014a fishing nation; clean pair of hands\u2014will continually lift the bar.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EFlourishes aside, I genuinely believe, Mr Parker, that the efforts of the select committee do help us achieve a higher level of compliance and a higher level of acceptability and legitimisation when dealing with the vessels on the high seas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002219172d94c9ce4d2f8c1037d843d85607\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219172d94c9ce4d2f8c1037d843d85607\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Can I thank the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries for that explanation and for reminding me that it\u2019s Honiara where this monitoring activity takes place. When I was in Honiara with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, last year, we inspected that facility. In another Pacific country, on more than one occasion, the local politicians, you could see, would have liked more of the fishing effort to have been carried out by their own people so that they could earn a wage from the fishing rather than just take a royalty on the fishing day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere was recently an article that I read in a newspaper from a long-experienced Australian regulator of fisheries, who\u2019s long lived in the Pacific\u2014I forget her name. It was a very good article which contrasted the position in respect of small Island States compared to those that have the advantage of an association with France. I wasn\u2019t aware of this until recently, but France, through their areas, have been more assiduous about ensuring the economic development benefits that can flow from fishing their own fish\u2014\u201Ctheir\u201D being the Pacific Island territory\u2014through a fishing fleet that is French. I wondered whether the Minister had a view as to whether comparing the effectiveness of changes in this legislation, such as those which were found around section 42 in respect of this monitoring of the international fleet, might actually be better achieved if New Zealand and Australia assisted the Pacific Islands through support to, perhaps, buy a fleet leased to the Pacific Islands that could be used by those Pacific Islands to maximise the value they get from their own fishery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is, first, that general one, and, secondly, because he probably is aware of more of this than I am, how the French do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002269028e81207046c0b166bf63232e0f59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269028e81207046c0b166bf63232e0f59\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E It is absolutely true: we have a working relationship, obviously, with New Caledonia, and a number of us, from our M\u0101ori side, would know there is an incredibly close connection between the origins of the iwis and Taputapu\u0101tea, located in French Polynesia. The French Polynesians and the French nation State have zero tolerance for the international exploitation of the pelagic-fisheries resource in their sovereign waters\u2014zero tolerance\u2014and a similar situation subsists in New Caledonia, but there are ongoing debates as to where the maritime boundary is between Vanuatu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe other thing I\u2019d say is that in some of our Pacific Island nation neighbours, such as the Solomons, in Honiara, they have a thing called the archipelago fishery. Within that fishery, it is part of the sovereign waters, but, at all times, the nation States are seeking ways to boost the returns, because fisheries is now a currency of influence, which is why the Primary Production Committee actually came up with some very useful outcomes, which we\u2019re about to pass today, and it puts more acid on New Zealand to ensure that our own pair of hands are clean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn relation to upgrading fleets and such matters, then, obviously, we have a substantial budget through foreign affairs and a fair degree of that goes to fisheries. But I\u2019m going to send a warning of caution: unless we are continually investing and doing things that are of practical economic assistance to our Pacific neighbours, do not be surprised if they walk on by the traditional donors and go to the new donor partners. Recently, we had Transform Aqorau, a brilliant academic from the Solomon Islands, who spoke just up the road, and he warned New Zealand: less of the Oxfam approach and more of the practical infrastructure approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022469bd57cf0c5410b9c92ed36c08eb2f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022469bd57cf0c5410b9c92ed36c08eb2f8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E My final contribution in response to that is I suggest he reads my speech this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022762603c3e7de431bbf1c6245a6debe85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022762603c3e7de431bbf1c6245a6debe85\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you, Minister. I actually really enjoyed the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries\u2019 explanation for some of the contributions made by the Hon David Parker. My question is along a similar vein, having not sat through the select committee stage and not been part of the Primary Production Committee but knowing that this bill originated a little while ago. I wanted to check with the Minister: does the Minister see this bill being consistent with the Agreement under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea on the Conservation and Sustainable use of Marine Biological Diversity of Areas beyond National Jurisdiction, or BBNJ?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBecause I\u2019m assuming, when we\u2019re looking at, I guess, in some ways clause 4 of Part 1, which is around the interpretation, predominantly this bill is around illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing, I wondered if the Minister has got any advice on checking that the terms of that are consistent with what our general trajectory is under that particular agreement. Particularly, I\u2019m looking at Parts\u00A03 and 4 of that agreement, the BBNJ agreement. So, yeah, I\u2019m just checking with the Minister on whether this legislation largely is in line with that, noting that the bill was introduced before the agreement was signed, but now the agreement has been signed and has gone through some of the review process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce4ab56f370c40ccafd5f6ee9a51ef0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce4ab56f370c40ccafd5f6ee9a51ef0e\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Like the previous speaker, Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, I did find that interplay or the exchange between the Hon David Parker and the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries very interesting, so I have one question about that exchange, and I\u2019ll then move to more sort of boring questions, really. That was an interesting exchange. There were quite a lot of Gothic terms involved, and the Minister was talking about fisheries being a currency of influence. But the select committee has made some helpful changes in that regard, and I was wondering if he could point us to the changes that the select committee has made that he was referring to in that exchange, over a series of questions. That would be helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen to my two more precise questions, which are still on clause 29, and there\u2019s a change that the select committee has made to new section 113HB, at the start. It\u2019s that \u201CThe chief executive may, but is not required to, issue an international fishing permit, taking into account\u2014\u201D, and then there are some things listed and there\u2019s what looks like rewording in the rest of that section. I was just wondering if the Minister can confirm that that\u2019s his interpretation, as well\u2014those changes to new section 113HB\u2014that it\u2019s just supposed to be a clarification that the chief executive may, but is not required to, take into account the non-compliance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248f4adf212554b6f997093dde0098b5b\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: What section is she talking about? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022526a3853533d469881e46dd5f971f504\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and that the rest of the wording is just a rewording. So that\u2019s on page 19 of the bill, in section 113HB. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c663254f6f764910af7ca0ae161bbb86\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Section 113HB\u2014yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ccfe8a0320c41d695d52029d763d82c\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. So that\u2019s one more precise question, and then another more precise question is going to page 24 of the bill\u2014so clause 42 inserts a new section. This is one that the select committee has made a change to, again, and this is what I am focusing on. It changes new section 113UA, \u201CInvestigation of serious violations: power to detain vessel at port\u201D\u2014we were discussing that earlier\u2014and in subsection (5), it says that the chief executive may direct the release of the vessel. Now, this is where my question comes in, at paragraph (a), because it says that they may detain \u201Cif they believe on reasonable grounds that the serious violation took place on the high seas, on request of the vessel\u2019s flag State;\u201D. This is a picky question, but is it that the vessel\u2019s flag State has requested the vessel to do the serious violation, or is it that the vessel\u2019s flag State has requested that the vessel doing the serious violation be taken into the port? So it\u2019s really a question of grammar, and I think it would be useful to have the answer to that on the Hansard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIt may be that an amendment is needed on that point. I\u2019m always disturbed that we are in urgency, at the moment, in committee stage and running right on to a third reading, and can I recommend against doing that, because sometimes there are little changes that may need to be made. I\u2019m not saying that this is the one that needs a change, but it is good practice to have a couple of days whereby any small amendments can be made, if they need to be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1df7d58a60f4333bacdefcc23c4b181\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1df7d58a60f4333bacdefcc23c4b181\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Chair. I just have two other questions. I would be grateful if the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries was able to respond to the earlier issue that I\u2019d asked around the use of judgment, consideration, and opinion of the chief executive and the need or otherwise for perhaps consistency and, if not, then the rationale behind that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe first of my other questions actually follows on from what the Hon Rachel Brooking has just alluded to. It\u2019s just the next section down, new section 113UB, in clause 42. I think what\u2019s really important is that the powers that are given for the purposes of search on a vessel whilst at port are alongside the Search and Surveillance Act, but they also are as permissive as they could be in the context of making sure that that liberty and the like is protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like to take the Minister to new section 113UB(3)(b). This is where a high-seas fishery inspector may \u201Cdo 1 or more\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244b67ccccd104377bb52a007de97bc42\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Can you give us the page number?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ff17a44621b4a3ca1f5175d40b42fef\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: This is on page 24 of the commentary from the select committee. So it\u2019s subsection (3)(b), and it\u2019s about taking \u201Cany sample of a thing that may be inspected, for forensic or other scientific testing:\u201D. My question to the Minister is: does this provision provide for an item in its entirety to actually be taken? Because it might be that, you know, for the purpose of exercising the search powers, an item may, for example, need to be seized for the purpose of this particular clause, but there\u2019s nothing contained in this section that would allow, as I could see it, for the taking of an item in its entirety. It only talks about a sample of an item which may be inspected, which does not lead to an item in its entirety to be taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other stuff around remote access, that\u2019s not relevant in this particular context, but it\u2019s in terms of taking something in its entirety is really only subsection (3)(d), that relates to \u201Ca copy of a record or a document that may be inspected.\u201D So my point is not trying to be limiting but rather being empowering and whether there is provision contained that allows for a specific item in its entirety, which may be a small item, but to be taken for the purposes of that particular section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other question that I have is just in relation to page 28 of the select committee report and commentary. This is clause 48. This talks about the \u201CPublication of decisions on administrative penalties\u201D. I like the sense that there is going to be some accountability and transparency around this. There are particular aspects or criteria that the chief executive must do for each provision or each time a penalty is imposed\u2014you know, the location, the amount of the penalty, etc.; no issue with that. But there\u2019s nothing there that guides a particular time frame within which these decisions must actually be, effectively, uploaded to an internet site. Is the intention in drafting this that actually there is not any time frame, that it could be on an annual basis, that it could be\u2014I don\u2019t know. It just seems to be very silent as to a time frame within which these actions must be taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI mean, they\u2019ll be taken by the chief executive, but it seems to me the purpose around transparency and accountability is putting them up on the website, but there\u2019s no guidance as to when that would happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022830e0de578114396a96c7261c595f43b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022830e0de578114396a96c7261c595f43b\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Despite my best efforts of avoiding protraction, I shall stand again. In relation to the former Minister the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s question, I\u2019m advised that, yes, the change clarifies that the chief executive officer may take those matters into account. But I think it\u2019s really important that we\u2019re going to have, from time to time\u2014before I talk about the Southern Ocean\u2014times where people associated without a nation State may play a role and find wrongdoing upon foreign-flag vessels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EFor a foreign-flag vessel, the ultimate authority lies with the State that owns the flag. The nation State of New Zealand has no authority to endlessly take possession of, control of, or hold a foreign-flag vessel. We do have, through this legislation, authority to go and inspect, request further information, and help the host nation do the check and undertake the analysis when in port. But it\u2019s important that this rather obscure but very important principle be borne in mind. The two cornerstone pillars pertaining to this type of fishing are the United Nations fishing agreement but also the law of the sea, and Kiwis were involved in constructing the legislation or the principles that passed into international law in the law of the sea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn respect of the matter pertaining to biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction, the trajectory is an open question, and it is yet to enter into force for New Zealand to ratify and we may need new implementation legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, I want to talk about where this is likely to bite. We have vessels, along with a host of other vessels, in the Southern Ocean. We don\u2019t have any vessels any longer operating out of New Zealand in the broader pelagic fishery. We do have a vessel from time to time in the trans-Tasman waters, but this is more focused on those vessels extracting resource out of the high seas or, indeed, helping host nations. But in relation to the Southern Ocean, I\u2019d remind ourselves that we have a lucrative fishery down there called the Patagonian toothfish. It does bring people out in boils sometimes but I love eating this stuff and I\u2019ve had numerous fillets over the years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere have been ongoing calls for greater surveillance of our Kiwi vessels down there, and, indeed, the navy goes down there and assists, along with Australia, to check the quality of the conduct. You may recall, several years ago, a vessel was chased all the way to Cape Town by the Australian navy\u2014six, seven, or eight years ago. And it\u2019s to the extent that we would have been in that position that these powers today give our Government officials considerably more\u2014less influence but more authority to chase those offenders. If the offender has been flagged by another nation State such as Russia, the ultimate authority over the vessel lies with Russia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002241d35c985d73486e83cd5c853b22868f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241d35c985d73486e83cd5c853b22868f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, thank you. Look, I thank the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries for his comments and it\u2019s useful commentary\u2014thank you. My question was one about grammar on page 24, not so much about chasing ships around. And it\u2019s just the way that sentence reads. So this is at the top of page 24, clause 42, new section 113UA(5)(a), and it\u2019s a change made by the Primary Production Committee. So it\u2019s \u201Cif they believe on reasonable grounds that the serious violation took place on the high seas, on request of the vessel\u2019s flag State\u201D. So it\u2019s just whether that could be interpreted as meaning that the vessel\u2019s flag State wanted the serious violation to take place, as opposed to the vessel\u2019s flag State requesting the release of the vessel or the detention of the vessel. That\u2019s all I was asking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002296ed1df04dcc453d857de5ac674e722f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296ed1df04dcc453d857de5ac674e722f\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Look, several years ago, the New Zealand Navy was involved in an incident during the time that Murray McCully was the Minister of Foreign Affairs, so we have had experience in this. Indeed, at this very point in time, there\u2019s a stand-off between some of the Latin American States and fleets coming from Asia. At the end of the day, the ability, and I quote\u2014I\u2019m going to go right to where the Hon Rachel Brooking is referring to, paragraphs (5)(a) and (b) of new section 113UA, inserted by clause 42. The limits of our director-general\u2019s authority is driven by the overarching significance of the law of the sea, where the ultimate authority does lie with the flag-State nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, in the event that we want to give ourselves more authority if we felt that was a rogue nation ruining the sustainability of the fishery or interfering in a nefarious way with our relationships in the Pacific, I dare say that that solution doesn\u2019t lie in this Parliament; that solution lies in upgrading the agreements that all nations are a party to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d460b9494a8e4f72a4c08ed213503e20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d460b9494a8e4f72a4c08ed213503e20\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E There\u2019s one issue that I would like to follow up with the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries arising from his recent comments from the chair. He, I thought wisely, said to the House that the future of the demilitarised nature of the South Pacific is linked to the prosperity and success of Pacific Island nations, and that those Pacific Island nations will look to other nations that might seek to influence them\u2014that was a relevant document, Minister\u2014in respect of associations that might lead to the future militarisation of the Pacific and a Pacific that is different to that which we currently experience. The Minister, I thought, was referring in part to the necessary development assistance that comes into the Pacific Islands from Australia, the United States, New Zealand, Japan, the European Union, China, and various other countries. The Minister will be aware that most USA aid programmes have now been cancelled\u2014funding withdrawn from them\u2014and I know that his own leader, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who has quite a proud record of increasing development assistance into the Pacific under Labour-led administrations, was unsuccessful, in current straitened times, even in maintaining foreign aid at current levels into the Pacific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI raise to the Minister an idea I have floated, because I know the Minister of Defence, who was here very recently listening to this debate, has also had difficulty getting the money that she thinks is necessary to increase spending into hard power. So there is probably a need going forward to increase both hard- and soft-power spending, and both are hard to get. So I refer the Minister to an idea in the document that he has now before him that maybe the way to leverage both is to agree that, as a principle, we need to lift both and tie lifts in, one to the other. I think that would improve both the politics and the outcomes if we could, across this House, work together to lift expenditures in both of those areas. I know that there are disagreements across the House politically, but there\u2019s actually no disagreement, really, in respect of what we should be doing in the Pacific. The Rt Hon Chris Hipkins is also on record as saying we need to replace the frigates, which implies an increase in military expenditure as a percentage of GDP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo the question that I would ask the Minister is: has he given consideration as to whether, in addition to these sorts of illegal fishing measures, really, the key to sustainable use of the fisheries is an increase in development assistance into the Pacific to help them fund the capital fleet, and maybe the idea that I\u2019ve just put before him that you leverage one off the other so that you have, as a principle, that every increase in hard-power expenditure is matched by an increase in soft-power expenditure and diplomacy and overseas development assistance into the Pacific?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022740bff07d1724ed1901e21debfb20ef2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022740bff07d1724ed1901e21debfb20ef2\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the honourable member, and it\u2019s difficult to disagree. I just want to remind everyone: we, generally, are going to see these powers played out, in the Pacific region, when our military assets, such as they are, are deployed as a part of a collective effort. Recently, those efforts were called Kurukuru, which means, in M\u0101ori, \u201Cto strike\u201D. That\u2019s the French, Kiwis, Aussies, and Americans, and it\u2019s beyond cavil that we need to do as much as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBut there is a larger debate: how will we fund more surveillance and interventions? And that goes to the aid question\u2014to ensure that when we dress up aid, under whatever title you want to call it, it\u2019s done in such a way that it\u2019s boosting the resilience of our friends and the Governments of the Pacific, because they have options. If they feel that what they\u2019re being offered is not actually enabling them to enjoy other resilience\u2014this is not the 1960s and 1970s and 1980s and 1990s; we are regarded as a traditional donor. Other nations seeking to expand their influence in the Pacific are regarded as the new donors. The new donors are proving to be inordinately more pragmatic than the traditional donors, such as New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002281489cb313814915b8748e96f131f3ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281489cb313814915b8748e96f131f3ca\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you to the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries for responding to my previous question around the agreement on marine biodiversity of areas beyond national jurisdiction as well\u2014much appreciated. I\u2019m going to move on to a new clause. I guess, apologies to the Minister in advance, because I\u2019m actually really enjoying hearing the Minister\u2019s responses and also the experience the Minister has in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ETo start with, I\u2019m looking at clause 29, so that\u2019s section 113H replaced, which is around the issuing of the high-seas fishing permit. Forgive my ignorance\u2014feel free to direct me to additional readings or answer succinctly\u2014but I wondered: when we are issuing a high-seas fishing permit, is there a quota attached to that? Do you get quotas when you are fishing in the high seas? It\u2019s an area I genuinely don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also curious because I see that one of the reasons that we are changing this particular section from high-seas fishing permit to international fishing permit is because we are now including national fishery jurisdictions of a foreign country on top of just simply high seas. I want to check with the Minister whether that\u2019s an indication of something we might potentially see in either future trade agreements as sort of built into a trade agreement of being the eligibility or the authority by the relevant foreign countries or trade partners to fish within their national jurisdiction, or, alternatively, we\u2019re going to be seeing agreements on the line of the US Tuna Treaty Amendments to Annex II most recently, where we\u2019re going to be seeing some of these sorts of agreements coming up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EJust on the subject of a quota, I also wanted to check in terms of\u2014sorry, going back just a little bit\u2014clause 7, which is section 35 amended, we\u2019re talking about the quota management system. I want to check whether now the new definition of commercial fisher and the quota\u2014is quota still transferrable under the new definition? Because one of the things we heard yesterday, for example, when we were debating the dairy bill, was that quotas aren\u2019t transferrable. So you can\u2019t on-sell the quota. So I want to just check with the Minister for clarity that quotas in the case of the quota management system in the context of fishing quota are still transferable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo those are my sort of three questions around whether there is a quota involved when we\u2019re looking at high-seas fishing permits, whether we are going to be seeing more interactions or more inclusions of being able to fish in another country\u2019s national jurisdiction as part of this amendment, and also whether quotas are still transferrable under the new definition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022bca51b574fd34682a0425b8b4b6a1ee5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bca51b574fd34682a0425b8b4b6a1ee5\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Right, New Zealand belongs to a host of regional fishing management organisations. Indeed, one of them, set up in 2009-10, deals with a range of fisheries throughout the Pacific, including the mackerel off the coast of Chile, right through to the residual opportunities for boats to fish in the trans-Tasman waters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWhen a nation is entitled to extract a fraction of a defined fishery resource, their fraction, their quota, is under the auspices of what we call regional fishing management organisations (RFMOs). Yes, there is the ability for transferability of quota. That explains why, if I\u2019m not mistaken, it\u2019s Chile who\u2019s ended up with an inordinately large degree of mackerel fishery beyond their sovereign entitlement, because it\u2019s being transferred from other nations who are highly unlikely ever to use it. For those reasons, recently, New Zealand had the opportunity to catch quota allocated to Australia. So that\u2019s the reference, but it does not take place under any other regime other than our participation in what are called RFMOs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EOn the question of international water fisheries, I want people to bear in mind something like the Ross Sea. That is where our Kiwi vessels are active. These powers, in the statute flowing from the select committee inquiry, give sharper authority and more certainty to the ambit of how our fisheries officials are able to police our own vessels and have a go at other vessels in the Ross\u00A0Sea who undoubtedly are flouting regulations. However, at the end of the day, the capacity of Wellington to control that vessel depends on the flag State, and if the flag State\u2014it has happened, in the days of Murray McCully\u2014flips the bird, then our options lie at a higher court than this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u00225f2e302e8fe4428b80efe4609b8da50b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f2e302e8fe4428b80efe4609b8da50b\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002285c9885b3bf04cb59ecb86d04189d351\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000302\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226cb6c75c2a4d4177b804da8078510c96\u0022\u003EPart 2  Consequential amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00224502cd93e2e74f15995f2f0883e71b79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224502cd93e2e74f15995f2f0883e71b79\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 62 to 78, \u201CConsequential amendments\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002231da8243d972435fb81c295daba2f974\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231da8243d972435fb81c295daba2f974\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I understand that, in Part 2, we\u2019re looking at some of the consequential amendments, and I think the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries covered some parts of that in terms of the Search and Surveillance Act 2012, in terms of the \u201CSchedule amended\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, I know that there are certain parts of Part 1 that talk about the operational elements of this, but I guess I\u2019m curious to hear from the Minister\u2014and, again, this is coming from a position, broadly, of ignorance in terms of this area\u2014when we are looking at inspections etc., what sort of ability is there for a vessel to appeal when they feel like they are being searched inappropriately. For example, I know that, in certain parts of Part 1, it talks about certain areas that shouldn\u2019t be searched. We are seeing under the \u201CSchedule amended\u201D\u2014this is clause 63\u2014that there are certain sections that are exempted in terms of searching. But, yeah, I want to know: is there a possibility for an appeal process? Is there a possibility for a review process as a part of that general search? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00226c3b3bd045f84e35877e073078200a4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c3b3bd045f84e35877e073078200a4d\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E A very quick response. Members of the committee, I want you to contemplate how rugged the conditions are on a number of these vessels that may or may not attract the attention of our officials. You are literally thousands of kilometres, in some cases, away from the nearest port. One of our new aircraft may have found something, as a consequence of electronic monitoring, that requires further investigation. They fly over. They then report this. It may come to pass that there\u2019s a naval vessel not too far away, or a Kiwi-authorised person on another vessel operating out in the Pacific Islands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThis particular legislation gives clear authority to these benighted souls who have taken on this role, to go on these largely Asian-owned vessels and check that their conduct is consistent with the rules and obligations of operating on the high seas. It is a perilous and dangerous job, both for the people condemned to work months on end on these small vessels or, indeed, for our officers. This bill clearly identifies what they are able to do and how intrusive the search can be. But most of the time, these vessels are not Kiwi vessels; they derive their authority through a foreign flag. It may not come as a surprise to you that a lot of the foreign nations may very well resent this intrusiveness, so judgment will be required, but there will be clear authority for our people to undertake these roles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00223064fd68c0474fe393eb4b194a03607a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223064fd68c0474fe393eb4b194a03607a\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Minister. Further to that question on the right of officers to inspect, enter living quarters, and conduct remote search\u2014particularly, entering living quarters\u2014there were questions on the committee around New Zealand Bill of Rights Act issues, in terms of earlier parts of the bill as well, but also around this. What is your confidence and what gives you certainty that there are no New Zealand Bill of Rights Act issues with, for example, entering the private quarters of somebody living in\u2014and I concur\u2014at times pretty miserable conditions on some of these vessels at sea? It has been well documented, the slave-like conditions that some fishers are suffering on vessels in the Pacific and other parts of the world, but I wonder what consideration was given by you to the rights impact of fisheries officers being able to enter and board vessels in this manner. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00225bd7a5c31079435b9625f7345deb600b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bd7a5c31079435b9625f7345deb600b\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E So, folks, for the legions of Kiwis following this fascinating debate, we\u2019re on Part 2, \u201CConsequential amendments\u201D; we\u2019re on clause 63, \u201CSchedule amended\u201D; and we\u2019re referring to items 113UB and 113UC. I direct the member Steve Abel\u2019s attention to the fact that these powers are conferred under the Fisheries Act. The Fisheries Act has a range of provisions already within that statute, originally passed\u2014if I\u2019m not mistaken\u2014in the mid-1990s. I\u2019m confident that there will be no rogue operators exercising these powers, because these powers are now being embedded in a parent statute that already places limits on the capacity of the State to career around and make people\u2019s lives misery. The exercise of these powers is likely to happen when a vessel comes into a port. It can possibly happen on the high seas, but it is likely to be the case when they\u2019re in a port like Majuro, when they\u2019re at port in the Kiribati islands, or possibly when they\u2019re in Honiara itself\u2014this is where we imagine a lot of these checks, after surveillance detects untoward behaviour takes place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002277960e0661bb47e3873963abf4d94461\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277960e0661bb47e3873963abf4d94461\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Again, I really appreciate the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries\u2019 responses, and I also appreciate the Minister sharing his expertise on this particular topic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI want to check, again, on this particular part\u2014and feel free to give me very short answers\u2014does the primary Act in terms of that, when it comes to search and surveillance, also cover, for example, if the official, let\u2019s say in high seas or even potentially in a port, rather than seeing evidence of illegal fishing, sees elements of other potential crimes such as slavery or, even, human trafficking as a part of that search and seizure? How do they then manage this uncovering of some of those kinds of elements? Because, again, we\u2019ve heard instances, and this is particularly rife from South-east Asia when it comes to evidence of modern slavery. Would the Minister be able to elucidate on whether the primary Act also clearly defines that when that search and seizure power does take place, they have to be on very specific areas and other areas that a person does notice will just have to be ignored or they are inadmissible as evidence because they\u2019re not covered under the primary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think, further to that, the other question I have is particularly\u2014like the Minister said, I can only imagine the tough and rough situations that people do have when it comes to the high seas. So when something like this does happen in search and surveillance\u2014and tempers do run high\u2014is there any legal protection for any criminal offence that does take place in that regard as part of either this bill or the primary bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c50921091ecd4bc8bbde187062d17654\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c50921091ecd4bc8bbde187062d17654\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, so, obviously, New Zealand is a member to a variety of agreements, because we do stand against examples of international slavery in workplaces. Members may recall, 10 to 15 years ago, there were an egregious set of cases associated with Korean-flag vessels in New Zealand, so I don\u2019t need to recite that history, but it should remind people in this committee that we have had a bit of experience in this regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s important to bear in mind that there is an international tribunal under the law of the sea, and if a foreign nation\u2014or indeed our own nation\u2014found that someone was creating problems, trying to obstruct and being unreasonable to our own flag vessels down there in the Ross Sea, we have the ability, as a nation owning the flag, to protest and to challenge such inspections. It\u2019s inevitable, from time to time\u2014whether it\u2019s New Zealand working with the Pacific, which is obviously very topical\u2014that could be the case. But there is a dispute resolution process, and that\u2019s at the tribunal under the law of the sea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022aadcf7ef5cb24b97b369092cb4f8ba4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aadcf7ef5cb24b97b369092cb4f8ba4c\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229d5da306789e4b528d3e223cb2895f7b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000317\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000318\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b8951ac8667e47ddaccae69f114cdd2d\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d25cb96d04a14d6c89c12414b85ebfe7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d25cb96d04a14d6c89c12414b85ebfe7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate, clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022610016033a984d76b65042341668efaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022610016033a984d76b65042341668efaa\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you. Just a very quick question to the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries on clause 2, on the commencement date. I\u2019m assuming that the Act is coming into force six months after Royal assent to give time for preparation of some of the transition factors in this, but I just want to check with the Minister that the Minister is confident that six months is sufficient for some of the changes that are proposed in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00227a5f9f6afbf74b08a7ce2a533a2d33dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a5f9f6afbf74b08a7ce2a533a2d33dc\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I can assure you the bill\u2019s been through the necessary assurance processes with our Ministry for Primary Industries officials. I have no doubt that they have arrived at a professional conclusion reflected in the statute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4596f9e86a94017860cb1e1442299e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4596f9e86a94017860cb1e1442299e4\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a2034a69253c4f1bb9312987c742a91a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000324\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000325\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000326\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000327\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00224ebdf0b883784618af2869ae94bb42da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ebdf0b883784618af2869ae94bb42da\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002219791eae4ef84d67a02a0b16842e2797\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219791eae4ef84d67a02a0b16842e2797\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d812a6cd02b243b19a926de618773044\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00224aab0bf9f03d4f5c9fe82b4769e5f51b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224aab0bf9f03d4f5c9fe82b4769e5f51b\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed88ba60f09647a69e7b34cd231de420\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219fb247420a740f3b88bbabeeba699ad\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge that these legislative changes flow from a body of work undertaken by the Primary Production Committee in a regime earlier than this one. They have come up with some sensible innovations and improvements. And why is it important? As I\u2019ve already said, fisheries has turned into a currency of influence in not only the Pacific and other parts of the world, but it\u2019s also been a vector for perfidy, where there have been problems that offend basic human rights. New Zealand has sought over the last 10 to 15 years to upgrade its level of assistance and to work more effectively with our neighbouring Pacific Governments. These are international obligations that relate to illegal and under-reported fishing, and the actual problem that we\u2019re trying to solve is that, throughout our near neighbours, we have the Goldilocks zone of pelagic international fisheries. No group of nations have a more lucrative resource than our Pacific neighbours; sadly, they struggle, year after year, to maximise the dividend or the return from this natural resource.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EHistorically, it was dominated by the Americans. The Americans had an American tuna treaty, and that was used as a basis to meet the costs of gaining access to the fishery. And then a group of Kiwis\u2014not the least of which is Mr Les Clark from Christchurch, married to a Kiribati woman\u2014got together, several years ago, with the leaders of what\u2019s called the Parties to the Nauru Agreement, and they created a collective of nations that decided to pool their political resource together. That enabled them to introduce a scheme that it is illegal to fish in their sovereign waters unless you purchase days enabling you to fish commercially for a defined range of pelagic sea species. No days; no fishing. That then drove vessels to fish in the adjoining international waters, thus denying the nations of revenue and increasing the prospect of illegal, under-reported fishing and a host of other illegal activities. So that is the problem that we\u2019re trying to solve, largely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow it is nations from Asia who dominate that fishery. The Americans have largely withdrawn from the fishery because they could not match the cost of buying a day to fish in sovereign waters of our Pacific neighbours. This is a very lucrative entitlement scheme of catching after you have paid for the days. This scheme has, however, led to a host of challenges\u2014not the least of which is policing what the heck is happening and finding a way to be more intrusive when vessels come to shore, because the concept of transshipment at sea is now illegal in the vast majority of the Pacific nations. By that, I mean that boats come alongside a big mother ship and they supply them with groceries and various other services and goods, and then they put the fish on the large vessel. Now these things have to happen at shore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe changes that we have made through this legislation give greater powers and helps us play a better role in working with our Pacific neighbours. It also gives authority and greater opportunities to police our own fisheries vessels\u2014very modest in size.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe final thing I\u2019d like to say about this area is that we are in changing, volatile times when we look at our Pacific neighbours and when we look at how we spend the money that we have under our Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT) budgets, and what are we actually buying? Are we increasing the footprint of our influence? Are we putting conditions on our aid to ensure that the values that define us as New Zealanders are protected, extended, and projected? These are matters of political debate because often it\u2019s said you should just give aid without conditions. I do not believe that. I believe that the taxpayers of New Zealand are spending money in the Pacific. We need to be absolutely confident that the footprint of New Zealand\u2014an open, liberal, transparent democracy\u2014is not sidelined or marginalised. We cannot have a situation where we\u2019re spending money and not advancing the interests of our own nation to ensure that the Pacific remains a peaceful, open, safe, and secure environment. This is the tipping point where we\u2019re at. Gone are the days where we could have a juvenile and naive view that everything we threw up there was going to lead to positive outcomes for New Zealand. We don\u2019t have that any longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EBut these changes do represent an improvement in the legal powers that we have. Obviously, I should acknowledge the members of the Primary Production Committee, the most enjoyable select committee that I ever sat on in my time since 2005. I acknowledge the work of the Parliamentary Counsel Office\u2014they\u2019re extraordinarily busy\u2014the MFAT officials, and the Ministry for Primary Industries officials. On that note, I\u2019d like to thank all who have contributed to the bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00228373e0cbe7d848b0a85cb08b9b8c05fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228373e0cbe7d848b0a85cb08b9b8c05fd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Labour Party endorses the comments made by the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries and agrees that the bill is a useful contribution to New Zealand\u2019s help in the Pacific to enable them both to sustainably fish their fisheries, so that the environmental baseline is maintained, and also to maximise the economic value they can achieve within those environmental limits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EResponding to some of the Minister\u2019s comments about the more general propositions he made about aid into the Pacific, we agree that the prosperity and peacefulness of the Pacific Islands is of fundamental importance to New Zealand. It\u2019s important to our economic, our people-to-people, and also our security interests. The withdrawal of US aid does not help. Most of their programmes have been cut, and it does mean that New Zealand and partners, like Australia, are going to have to step up. We need to do practical things, I agree, Minister, like enable affordable banking services, digital telecommunications, renewable electricity, and sustainable resource utilisation, as we are doing here with fisheries, but I think there\u2019s a lot more to be done on that, as I addressed in the committee stage. And, of course, we\u2019ve got to help them with climate adaptation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, I agree that reciprocity is the key. I think we have to be a little bit careful that we\u2019re not completely zero-sum game here, because better educational, health, and civil society outcomes are good for us all, and they have a value that ought not to be too transactional. But, that said, I agree that reciprocity is the key to their prosperity and to our willingness to contribute. Now, we\u2019ve got a couple of ideas out on that at the moment. We think we need a bit of a new framing to work with rising powers in the region, as well as the other Pacific countries, and we\u2019re interested in pursuing a Pacific peace zone, which might enable us to pursue those issues well, in a way that meshes with New Zealand\u2019s traditional role in the Pacific, relating to peace and denuclearisation, or the avoidance of nuclearisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe also think it\u2019s clear that the decline in both soft- and hard-power spending in New Zealand has to be reversed, and we are actually still seeing declines in both, or particularly in recent\u2014I don\u2019t want to politicise this too much. There\u2019s a long-term trend that has seen a decline, particularly in hard-power expenditure, and a recent decline in soft-power expenditure as a percentage of GDP, too. Now, the split between hard-power expenditure and military expenditure will always need to be worked through, but we\u2019re out there on the record today saying that we accept that increases to both are needed. We think a good principle, to start with, would be that for every dollar extra we spend in the military, we should be increasing our soft-power spend as well. For the cost of one frigate, you\u2019d just about form a fisheries fleet in the Pacific. There are substantial increases of expenditure needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe former Prime Minister the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins, our leader, has said that we agree the frigates need to be replaced\u2014that it is fair for our partners to expect that they have military capabilities. And, as the Minister has outlined today, some of the work they do in the Pacific is quite dangerous already in respect of some of these shadow fleets. So we accept that that\u2019s necessary. We accept that cooperation across Governments will be necessary to achieve that. We make the point that the last frigates were purchased by a Labour administration. The upgrades to the P-8s and the Orions were under a Labour coalition, with support from New Zealand First and the Green Party. There is a need, also, to change the way in which we defend ourselves, through the use of drones and things, which I won\u2019t go into, but I think, at the core, this is, in my opinion, a very, very sensible idea. It\u2019s hard to get political buy-in with people on these issues, and maybe we can leverage up both by saying we should link one to the other, because we actually need both, for the reasons that the Hon Shane Jones has already addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ECan I end by thanking the Primary Production Committee, because it was the select committee of this House that, essentially, led to this legislation, and the Government officials, as well as members of civil society, who then saw it through. We commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00229a601e58ce6e489a935e7ec2a8c415f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a601e58ce6e489a935e7ec2a8c415f6\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Of course, it\u2019s a pity that I get the opportunity to acknowledge the excellent work of the officials on this bill after they\u2019ve left the room. But I do want to acknowledge that, because at the Primary Production Committee, when we worked through the bill, there were a number of complexities. It certainly has the effect of strengthening the ability of inspectors and regulators to protect our oceans from the worst and most egregious actions of illegal, unregulated, and unreported fishing. That\u2019s why we\u2019re obviously supporting it. It\u2019s a good bill, and it\u2019s great to have another instance of cross-party support on this. And it\u2019s another instance in the space of two days of the Primary Production Committee having consensus\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c8fc9c7f1aa4092ab8b507c77691808\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Best committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bc9f11a91444e02ab334f09f6a929ed\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014on\u2014best committee\u2014a bill that is for the our collective good as a nation, and indeed the entire environment of the ocean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe Minister for Oceans and Fisheries spoke about the opportunity for economic benefits to the Pacific from a healthy fishery. I suppose, in a sense, the Green Party comes at it from the other way around, which is to say that when we have a thriving ocean ecology, we also have a thriving fishery that can then feed people and sustain people. And the starting point is that we protect the integrity of that ecology. Those magnificent benthic environments, those seafloor environments where we get these magnificent ancient coral forests, actually are a hub of ecological intensity\u2014this is where the likes of orange roughy feed and exist. Around those environments, you get a diversity of species. It\u2019s sort of like in shallow waters when you have a marine protected area, you get an abundance of fish and it ends up being for the benefit of those areas outside of that marine protected area, where fishing is still permitted. So by protecting, in the first instance, the health of the ecology of our ocean, we also protect the fishery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt is concerning to us, in the broader scheme of things\u2014that, rightly, we are taking a clear position on illegal, unregulated, and unreported fishing that is consistent with our commitment to international obligations in the oceans. We had a very clear message from the officials on this. This is part of the broader principle of being part of the community of nations that take a care to look after the oceans, and we really needed to come up to speed to where other nations were on this challenge\u2014these serious challenges, as the Minister rightly points out, in that wild and vast blue world that we live on. It is very challenging to deal with\u2014he called them the mosquitoes, but the multitude of vessels out there that are doing things out of sight, out of mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIn that frame, it is hard for us to not refer to our concerns about this Government\u2019s failure to entirely be consistent on that front. I\u2019m thinking of the South Pacific Regional Fisheries Management Organisation\u2014SPRFMO\u2014where New Zealand, under this Government, under this regime and this Minister, has backed out of previous commitments we made to uphold things like protecting those hugely valuable seamounts from destructive fishing. The sort of things that happened on those seamounts are things that are done by illegal vessels. But, often, if we haven\u2019t got very clear jurisdictions that state clearly that that particular benthic environment is out of bounds, then we cannot enforce the idea of illegal fishing because it hasn\u2019t been designated yet as illegal. New Zealand needs to do both ends of the equation. We need to be part of international agreements to make sure that we do protect the integrity of those most valuable ecosystems at sea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt is also hard, in the context of where we are in time, to not reflect on the recent voyage of Greenpeace out on a ship to have a look at what is going on in the deep. I note, from a recent email, they said, \u201CWe saw the beauty of thriving underwater communities, including deep-sea corals that support a myriad of ocean life. We also saw the absolute destruction caused by bottom trawling. After even years of campaigning to protect seamounts and coral, seeing hour after hour of destroyed coral on this scale was a shock.\u201D This is information that\u2019s just been garnered in the last few days, in the last couple of weeks. \u201CCoral is absolutely crucial to ocean health. When bottom trawlers drag heavy nets over the seafloor, they turn coral forests into rubble. We know that what comes up in the nets is just a tiny indication of what has been destroyed on the seafloor, and recently we have had instances of rare and protected coral species being trawled up in New Zealand fishing nets. Seeing both the destruction and the beauty reminded me how important it is to protect seamounts and the coral that live on them.\u201D We couldn\u2019t express support for that statement more strongly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThis legislation before us is part of a very important context in terms of the ocean, and part of where we as a nation need to be stepping more forthrightly and more determinedly to ensure that we do protect that absolutely precious ocean ecology that makes up most of the Earth\u2019s surface.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt is always a pleasure when we are able to sit on a committee and work through an agreement on a piece of legislation like this that does protect the commons, that benefits all of us, not just those of us who are directly associated with it in our exclusive economic zone, but also those international waters that we are all responsible for being the caretakers of because they are, in a sense, something that belongs to no one; they belong to all of us, therefore. So this is an instance of where we have a piece of legislation that allows us, as people, to step up to that greater duty of being caretakers, for our brief time on this planet, of this magnificent ecology that we enjoy, live amongst, and are part of as human beings. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1c14f3cc8ce4a46829191578f5f6c79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1c14f3cc8ce4a46829191578f5f6c79\u0022\u003ELAURA McCLURE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise in support of this bill on its third reading. I think, firstly, all of us in this House can acknowledge the abundance that the Pacific offers, and its potential for our very vulnerable Pacific Island nations. The seafood industry is one of their key core assets, and it\u2019s something that they hold very dearly to their heart. This bill, while it enables more powers for us to search vessels, for example, and to search for that illegal fishing, it also offers us a bit of an insight into other things that are happening out in the Pacific. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EI think some of the discussion that we\u2019ve been hearing today in the committee of the whole House, and bits and pieces that I\u2019ve been picking up on\u2014it\u2019s quite nice to hear that, actually, some of the Opposition, particularly Labour, have actually come out in support of some of the things that we need to do within the Pacific as far as where we\u2019re putting our financial aid. Are we getting value for money? Are we actually helping our Pacific Island nations with the things that they actually really want and need to thrive, in order for us to make some of our gains back, our political influence that we have lost over the last few years? I think that\u2019s really important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s also good to hear that they also agree to an increase in GDP spending for defence, and I think this side of the House would be pretty proud and happy to see that. I also think that, for New Zealand as a whole, this signals that, actually, this Government and the Opposition see that our national security is a huge priority for us here, a tiny island nation at the bottom of the planet. We cannot find this more important, to make sure that we shore up our Pacific. So this has been well traversed, and we all know this a really good bill, and I\u2019m really grateful to see everybody is supporting this, and I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u002261ed2766f41a4ab283159e046a32be44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261ed2766f41a4ab283159e046a32be44\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E This bill\u2019s about being a trusted and responsible global trading partner, and it\u2019s about protecting the long-term interests of our vital fishing industry. I am very proud to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022c05d05f8cbba499b8eea2cab408b9dc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c05d05f8cbba499b8eea2cab408b9dc4\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero o Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori m\u014D te pire nei me \u014Dna kaupapa atu i te iwi M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E[I stand to voice the opinion of the M\u0101ori Party about this bill and its issues, that pertain to the M\u0101ori people.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EIllegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing is obviously something you\u2019ve got to combat, because fish are a finite resource, and we\u2019ve learnt that many times in this country. So we support the bill in that regard. The protection of international waters and international species is a key theme to our local species. They\u2019re never separated. A tuna that swims down from Tonga is just as important as a kahawai caught down at the harbour. These are all lessons that are often lost in these sorts of conversations. So the knock-on effect is key in this discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s a good knock-on effect theme that\u2019s a classic example in New Zealand. This year, we\u2019ve had one of the best yellowfin tuna seasons in this country in 10 to 15 years. There are yellowfin tuna everywhere, from Manawat\u0101whi / the Three Kings, all the way to the Cook Strait\u2014unprecedented. Where the heck did all those tuna come from? Well, I\u2019ll tell you what happened. They stopped all that tuna wrangling up in the Pacific. So the game fishermen in this country haven\u2019t seen a run of tuna for more than 10 years. So the protection of international waters has a knock-on effect to our local waters, and those two things are as important as each other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m a bit confused, a bit bemused, at the extreme attention that the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries is paying to protecting and regulating international waters, when he\u2019s happy to deregulate local waters. Those two things are the same thing, so if you\u2019re going to do one in one place, do it in the other one. In terms of our species in fishing, despite all the hoo-ha over the quota management system over the years, I can rattle off 10 species that were deemed so numerous that they would never disappear, that\u2014guess what!\u2014almost disappeared. Here\u2019s one of them, one of the most numerous coastal fish: kahawai. When it was opened up to netters, it nearly vanished\u2014the good old kahawai that everyone can go and catch. So they\u2019re not separate issues, is what I\u2019m saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EYet we\u2019ve got two separate approaches\u2014I can\u2019t work that out. Me, I\u2019m a fisherman and a diver; my father was a fisherman and diver; my uncle is a fisherman and diver; my grandfather was a fisherman and diver; and my great-grandfather was a fisherman and diver. We\u2019ve been watching these coasts, fishing them, using the resources for generations and generations. We understand all this stuff. It\u2019s not hard. It gets confusing when people stand around talking about it, or bits and pieces of it\u2014this thing, that thing, the other thing, international, local. It all amounts to nothing if you can\u2019t feed your wh\u0101nau in your own rohe, moana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003ESo where is it all heading? It\u2019s got to be heading somewhere, and it needs to be heading to a place where they\u2019re all looked after as a total. You can\u2019t separate them out and say, \u201COh, we\u2019re going to regulate over here, but\u2014you know what?\u2014we\u2019re going to let that bottom trawling continue.\u201D It\u2019s ludicrous and our country deserves better. Te iwi M\u0101ori deserves better, but our country deserves better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EAlso, I will just pick up on Steve Abel\u2019s point. You can\u2019t ignore climate change. The unprecedented run of yellowfin tuna in this country was matched this year by a more unprecedented run of marlin in the Southern Ocean. I\u2019m talking about marlin south of Taranaki\u2014about 10 marlin were caught on the K\u0101piti Coast. There has been a string, a massive run, of marlin caught in the South Island, on the West Coast, in Westport, and there have been marlin caught in Kaik\u014Dura. This is unprecedented. Never in the history of anyone counting fish has this happened. As I said, I\u2019m a diver. I dive off K\u0101piti Island a lot. Last weekend, we saw the first ever blue maomao at K\u0101piti Island. I don\u2019t know what to say, really.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EI go back to the Minister. How can he expect the international community to take us seriously when he still allows bottom trawling? We are one of seven countries in the world, wh\u0101nau\u2014one of seven in the world\u2014who allow legal bottom trawling. How can he do that? How can he expect the local people to take him seriously when he goes on national TV and openly says that the M\u0101ui dolphin doesn\u2019t exist\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255bd2e73982e49f28d36ebb45da928fd\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228881f8274195400a89495931dc8ba824\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and that it\u2019s actually just a small Hector\u2019s? There you go. There\u2019s the dull people over there. If that\u2019s what he believes, perhaps he should immediately lift the ban on set netting currently on the entire West Coast of the North Island because of the M\u0101ui dolphin. If indeed it is a ghost dolphin, lift the ban. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00225b22adf875fa4396858deacf5ed79af8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b22adf875fa4396858deacf5ed79af8\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party to also support the Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. Like many speakers have mentioned before, this is one of those bills that has the House\u2019s overall unanimous support. Again, thank you to the Primary Production Committee for examining this particular bill and also to the previous Minister, under the Labour Government, for introducing this bill in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to this bill, understandably, this is to do with international fishing and it\u2019s specifically around illegal, unreported, and unregulated\u2014IUU\u2014fishing. There are various mechanisms that are in this particular bill that aim to address some of these issues, as well as quality-of-life changes to areas such as, for example, expanding the high-seas fishing permit to a more broadly international fishing permit to include potentially authorised fish in other countries\u2019 national jurisdiction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo, as part of the committee stage, it was actually incredibly enlightening. I would like to thank the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries for being very open in terms of his response, but also in terms of his broader experience in this area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOther things that we did touch on in terms of the committee stage are around things like surveillance, and I think the Hon David Parker raised the really important questions, and some really important questions around\u2014it\u2019s great that we have some of these, but what happens if a vessel goes dark? You know, what happens if we are unable to see whether there are IUU activities taking place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut, broadly speaking, I want to kind of address a couple of additional things that other members have spoken on, and I want to first address our broader responsibility, as Aotearoa, in the Pacific region. Now, we have heard in terms of the need for defence spending and all of those, but I think, from a Greens\u2019 perspective, we maintain what is the value of that for our Pacific neighbours, in light of much greater issues in our communities at this stage, and what, honestly, our Pacific neighbours are asking us to do, which is to address climate change. That is one of the top priorities for them, in light of climate change and the issue of climate mitigation but also climate adaptation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ELook, we can\u2019t outshoot the US and we can\u2019t outspend China. So when we are looking at our defence spending going up to 2 percent of our GDP, which equates to $10 billion, exactly what are we actually going to be spending on in a stage where we\u2019re also seeing cuts to the Defence Force and not actually sponsoring the core facilities and infrastructure that we all need such as education and health, etc? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut to bring it back to this bill, one of the other things that we did manage to talk about quite substantively is how this will interact with other potential international instruments and agreements. I really want to use this opportunity to also talk about the fact that we have signed, but are also in the process of eventually ratifying and implementing, the agreement on marine biodiversity in areas beyond national jurisdiction\u2014or BBNJ. This sets, supposedly, the pathway for us to do what the Global Oceans Treaty is meant to do, which is to protect 30 percent of our ocean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure that many people agree that although we have these demarcated zones as exclusive economic zones, and this belongs to this country and that belongs to that country, our natural environment and our biodiversity, our marine animals do not see those borders. They do not factor in those borders when they are traveling through our open seas. So the way that T\u0101kuta Ferris has mentioned, in the sense that we have addressed some of these things in international waters but not so much in domestic waters, doesn\u2019t make a lot of sense in this case. Also, just a reminder to the House that New Zealand is actually still the only nation in the Pacific that bottom trawls in the South Pacific high seas, which is an embarrassment for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ELastly, I just want to say that in this particular agreement, it also gives acknowledgment of the traditional knowledge of indigenous peoples. M\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori is important for us and we look forward to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebf3f5ae82c640c8a397cd9ac0f18a79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebf3f5ae82c640c8a397cd9ac0f18a79\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. This bill helps us meet our international obligations and, importantly, it actually maintains our international reputation, noting our commitment to being a leader in sustainability of our fisheries and including in international waters. This reputation\u2019s quite critical to maintain our access to our export markets so that that export income can contribute to this Government\u2019s goal of doubling export by value over 10 years so that New Zealanders can benefit with increased job opportunities, enablement of better infrastructure, and ultimately putting more money in the back pockets of all New Zealanders. I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd5e5c022009468396dfdb97f881d1b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd5e5c022009468396dfdb97f881d1b8\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. Labour supports this bill. The reason for that is that we introduced it into the House\u2014so of course we\u2019re going to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis bill is important so that we\u2019re able to enforce and strengthen enforcement in the areas of illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing, and we also do need to align what is very strong and clear international practice in this space, and that\u2019s what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt is disappointing, though, that this is being progressed under urgency. The reason why I say that is because we\u2019ve just come hot off the heels of a committee stage where questions were put to the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries in committee, and it\u2019s rather disappointing that the Minister didn\u2019t respond to any of the questions that I put to him. On this side of the House, we were not seeking to be obstructive around this\u2014we are supportive of this bill; we want it to pass, but we want it to be good, clear legislation. The questions that were put to the Minister were in an effort to achieve exactly that. So it is disappointing that we are in urgency and that the Minister has decided not to play ball in the sense of giving constructive feedback, or even answering or addressing any of the questions. So that is a concern but I guess that\u2019s what you get from the Government seeking to progress legislation under urgency, noting that this is a bill that has been on the Order Paper, actually, for quite some time. So it is disappointing, in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EDespite that, though, when we step back and look at this bill, it is one that does give a real sense of achievement around reducing the gap between what the existing legislation is and what is good practice in terms of what our responsibilities are as a country. It is a bill that bases itself on the tenets of accountability and scrutiny, and so it is certainly our desire and hope that the bill will deliver on that. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u002221acd037af4749dcacb0b8bedcea1a8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221acd037af4749dcacb0b8bedcea1a8a\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E This Government is committed to a strong domestic framework against illegal fishing. Illegal fishing in the Southern and Pacific Oceans impacts on our own fishing industry, and we must do all we can to prevent illegal fishing. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226395e7120c27472fa21eb7a2c7e769bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226395e7120c27472fa21eb7a2c7e769bb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Five-minute split call\u2014Glen Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c62c83403fd44cf38b178504d1593bcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c62c83403fd44cf38b178504d1593bcf\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. As my colleagues the Hon David Parker and Tangi Utikere have already made clear, Labour does support this legislation. The reason we do is because it\u2019s the right thing to do, but also because it was a piece of legislation that Labour, in Government back in 2023, did introduce to this House\u2014so it is appropriate to support it. But it\u2019s also appropriate to support it because if we maintained the status quo, New Zealand would become an outlier in terms of this space, in terms of ensuring that we strengthen our ability to manage the fisheries and to enforce the rules to prevent illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing. It\u2019s good for us, it\u2019s good for the Pacific, and I commend this to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022715582f956fb41148fb04bea3246bdfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022715582f956fb41148fb04bea3246bdfe\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Similar to the last presenter from the other side of the House, Glen Bennett, this bill brings New Zealand up to the international expectations to meet our obligations. It focuses on our trading partners, it focuses on our Pacific neighbours, and it helps\u2014most importantly\u2014our ocean environment and our fish stocks. I\u2019m happy to commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022164b4124877d491492bb528d45da24aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022164b4124877d491492bb528d45da24aa\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is good to be speaking on this third reading of a bill that, as I mentioned earlier, was once in my name. I cannot claim to have done an awful amount of work on it when I was the Minister\u2014I was able to have it introduced, but it is the work, as we\u2019ve heard, from many officials over many years, and many people who have been very much involved in seeing the importance of international law around this shared resource, which is our oceans. So I want to commend all of those people who have done that work, and had the foresight to see\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b66ba5fc7b94134b68f27983b9ecea2\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: Even Shane?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269ff9dfdfb1746aaad962e31ed9d374a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014how international regulations are important\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022950fdfe733ea4d3992800cbadfbd11bb\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: Go on, say it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6935d2587024a059162f11e561e64f7\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: You know you want to!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220046222ec44544dbaee181d6d2bfe76f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: There are some heckles coming from the other side of the House that I have to even congratulate the current Minister for Oceans and Fisheries for shepherding this through the House. I do believe that in the committee of the whole House stage, I thanked the Minister a number of times for his comments in the committee stage, and I do think it is good that he has continued with this piece of legislation, and I don\u2019t know if there needed much convincing for the other parties. They\u2019ve all been joining in harmony for support of this bill, so I commend all of them who are doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbbeaa338b4245e8a07fc2769db549f8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Nearly\u2014nearly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275b4ec9bc87d431490021d6e8685d0d6\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I also do want to, though, note that some of our very small, precise questions were not answered in the committee stage, and that is a problem, as is running that committee stage into the third reading, all at the same time in urgency, where people were in the House until 12 midnight last night, were in the select committees at 8 o\u2019clock this morning, and there might be mistakes made. I\u2019m simply talking about good legislative processes, to those members opposite. I can say it is a lot more efficient, if this Government is interested in efficiency, to have a little bit of time to make sure that questions raised do not identify problems that could be easily fixed by going back into the committee stage rather than passing a bill, having it commence, and then having to come back to amend it, if that is indeed the case. Just a bit of good process helps with efficiency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll try and end on a more cheery note, and that is that it is very excellent that all parties are agreed about the importance of this international law, and the importance of regulating illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002274ff9e1981c9408284b9df4ed7db9028\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274ff9e1981c9408284b9df4ed7db9028\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the next speaker, I think it\u2019s very good that members are looking after the ego and self-esteem of their Minister, which clearly needs to be looked after! So I commend them for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u002299133344723f4d71ba85f57b99bcfe08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299133344723f4d71ba85f57b99bcfe08\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be the lucky last speaker on this, the third reading of the Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. Essentially, this bill, as we\u2019ve heard traversed around the House today, is amending the principal Act, the Fisheries Act 1996, so that Aotearoa New Zealand can better meet its international fishing management obligations in a more efficient way. With that, since we\u2019re so good here on this side of the House with efficiency, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd26d0a64ede42aaa0355f0b546709b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd26d0a64ede42aaa0355f0b546709b3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That concludes the business of urgency. Congratulations to all involved. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.22 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025032510f0b74b67e34bb8858e2abd30711819000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"