"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224992b6d5499f40458889898cd59b7153\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 1 APRIL 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fb85819b148940bcb40f23db10cc1959\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 1 APRIL 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222256e7cf3f59451ab2035a0b4368d720\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c28c166a849a4ee1848f1476c269b62a\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002226c626730fdc4f1fbd895ce05004f852\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226c626730fdc4f1fbd895ce05004f852\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (Deputy Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002292407423be7e42a4b2dbf88ea094d6d7\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226717606dc35b436a92abf96f9edd00d5\u0022\u003ESupermarket Sector\u2014Lack of Competition, Government Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022020ad1d9a15c46b596b11c75312f357c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022020ad1d9a15c46b596b11c75312f357c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019ve received a letter from Arena Williams seeking to debate under Standing Order 399 the Government\u2019s response to the lack of competition in the supermarket sector. This is a particular case of recent occurrence for which there is ministerial responsibility. An application for an urgent debate on this issue was sought and declined last year because the matter had not reached the level of urgency required to set aside the business of the House to debate it. The most recent Government announcement was that it would make a request for information to support a supermarket competitor. While the issue is an important one, the Government\u2019s announcements to date also do not reach the threshold for an urgent debate. The application is declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022276d65b874cc44fb9aaf4eac8a03683b\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6055706bfc14a6f8e181ed40564020b\u0022\u003EMyanmar\u2014Earthquake\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022e87656a2f7d84a0585e829920ae40ac7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e87656a2f7d84a0585e829920ae40ac7\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move a motion without notice and without debate to express our condolences to those affected by the Myanmar earthquake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbc410034e31440db412d1c493af1743\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022363ae81376d04539a6420afd06da965b\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That this House send it condolences to all those who have lost loved ones and livelihoods in Myanmar, Thailand, and other adjacent nations as a result of the Myanmar earthquake on 28 March, and note that the Government of New Zealand stands ready to consider and respond to any request for assistance from affected countries to aid recovery efforts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db4a2fbbd8384132af4d43a6c61d03ca\u0022\u003EPETITIONS, PAPERS, SELECT COMMITTEE REPORTS, AND INTRODUCTION OF BILLS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b56497ee8c5946dbb2fe30fa516b8674\u0022\u003EPETITIONS, PAPERS, SELECT COMMITTEE REPORTS, AND INTRODUCTION OF BILLS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3bd7589e98a4aaeb552e0a6c6d094c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3bd7589e98a4aaeb552e0a6c6d094c2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A petition has been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00221553ad89fce5454a83cf026aa6ba5de0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221553ad89fce5454a83cf026aa6ba5de0\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Free Fares NZ requesting that the House urge the Government to not implement the new private share funding targets for public transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c63dd534078048a695155a98de1f919b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c63dd534078048a695155a98de1f919b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered two papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022435409c65c3c4047a84c3dd17bf1f140\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022435409c65c3c4047a84c3dd17bf1f140\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2025-2029 Statement of Intent for National Infrastructure Funding and Financing Ltd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EAmendment to the Statement of Performance Expectations for National Infrastructure Funding and Financing Ltd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00227be73d0a2a474bf188577b6dceba068e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227be73d0a2a474bf188577b6dceba068e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Thirty-seven select committee have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00223d4afb463a514a7c8359b109805f134b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d4afb463a514a7c8359b109805f134b\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReports of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on the 2023-24 annual reviews of: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Post Ltd, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMinistry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Education and Workforce Committee on the 2023-24 annual reviews of:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation Corporation and WorkSafe New Zealand, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Eeducation sector\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Environment Committee on the 2023-24 annual reviews of: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EHe Pou a Rangi Climate Change Commission \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EPredator Free 2050 Ltd \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EClimate Change Chief Executives Board\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EDepartment of Conservation\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EEnergy Efficiency and Conservation Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EEnvironmental Protection Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMinistry for the Environment, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EParliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the 2023-24 annual review of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Justice Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EDisputes Tribunal Amendment Bill, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EPolicing (Police Vetting) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Primary Production Committee on the 2023-24 annual reviews of: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EAnimal Control Products Ltd (trading as Orillion)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EAsureQuality Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECrown Irrigation Investments Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ELand Information New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ELandcorp Farming Ltd (P\u0101mu Farms)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EQuotable Value Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMinistry for Primary Industries, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Walking Access Commission (Herenga \u0101 Nuku Aotearoa Outdoor Access Commission)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Regulations Review Committee on the Complaint about the Electricity (Safety) Regulations 2010\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Social Services and Community Committee on the 2023-24 annual reviews of: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EArts Council of New Zealand Toi Aotearoa (Creative New Zealand), and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EBroadcasting Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee on the 2023-24 annual reviews of: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EAir New Zealand Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECity Rail Link Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECrown Infrastructure Partners Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EKiwiRail Holdings Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ETe Manat\u016B Waka\u2014Ministry of Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EAirways Corporation of New Zealand Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECivil Aviation Authority of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Infrastructure Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ETranspower New Zealand Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EWaka Kotahi\u2014New Zealand Transport Agency, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Eenergy sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00226ce2e5ddd83a42d999656c9e168e3c84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ce2e5ddd83a42d999656c9e168e3c84\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bills are set down for second reading. The report of the Regulations Review Committee is set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of four bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00220495b3de62264e9e8f13e3f44190cd9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220495b3de62264e9e8f13e3f44190cd9c\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMedicines Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EFinancial Markets Conduct Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EFinancial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Amendment Bill, introduction, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ECredit Contracts and Consumer Finance Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002247bfd86e63c746ed83a0e65e2e54e907\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247bfd86e63c746ed83a0e65e2e54e907\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022464642afd8b446d0abd0b9cc0012f150\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002256f5a7acdd884c478c89e4f2319e5ee1\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1b31913b3974e85ab41f683b9d99319\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa96f99c9a5d427597a019b24cb3776b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa96f99c9a5d427597a019b24cb3776b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022334578ad318047499f8a606dfb22228d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022334578ad318047499f8a606dfb22228d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5e9533e05e54b11a68581980d54d833\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Christopher Luxon, \u201CWhat\u2019s mattering most to New Zealanders out there is what we are doing to reduce to the cost of living.\u201D; if so, why is his Government increasing Kiwi household power bills by up to $25 a month through increased transmission and charges during a cost of living crisis? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022321b85576cce4c29a1f79d86563daf2a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a reminder that questions are heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9a99c009cb747beaccea9689c6c95ab\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very proud of the efforts of our Government to help New Zealanders with the cost of living. That\u2019s why we\u2019re getting control of Government spending, that\u2019s why inflation\u2019s coming down, that\u2019s why interest rates are coming down. I just note that that member didn\u2019t support tax relief for the first time in 14 years for low and middle income workers. We\u2019re doing everything we can to put money back in Kiwis\u2019 pockets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef29d59cf61a4f7f8dd0e3851c6cf949\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Is his Government\u2019s decision to increase car registration fees by $50 a year, increase taxes on parking fines, and more than double the insurance levies on motor vehicles increasing or decreasing cost of living for Kiwi households?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca7597bf97a74fb897e08024882af490\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What is improving the situation for Kiwis\u2019 households is making sure that inflation is coming down, interest rates are coming down, and the economy is starting to grow. It was fantastic to see the economy grow at 0.7 percent in quarter four last year. Importantly, Labour didn\u2019t vote for tax relief, Labour didn\u2019t vote for Working for Families credits, and Labour didn\u2019t vote for FamilyBoost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c96a806a4684e1a96519bf4df430d1f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s enough\u2014that\u2019s enough. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b22ed69e3254260ad1659894526835d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will his Government\u2019s plan to increase annual household insurance bills by between $400 and $948 a year increase or decrease the cost of living for Kiwi households?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022369663167bbc4d9f9d1d813fdaeabc92\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We don\u2019t set insurance premiums, but what we can control is the environment\u2014which is an economy that\u2019s incredibly well managed\u2014to make sure that we\u2019re bringing spending down, to make sure that we\u2019re bringing inflation down and interest rates down, and that the economy\u2019s growing so people have more money in their pockets and they can access higher-income jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224615bdb8a8c04332aabb9288ba2a4a91\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister might have misheard the question when he said the Government doesn\u2019t set insurance levies, given that the question was specifically about the part of household insurance that the Government does set. The Government is currently consulting on a proposal to increase household insurance costs by $400 to $948 per year per household.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b443ddd15f0e42c38ef0fdd5a9daae69\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is: is it the Government or a Government agency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251deb9dda2ae4090b25dba118962280c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a Government agency. But that is the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e98aa2fc367846feb76cbbe82d021683\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If it has a separate board, then the board will make that decision. But the Prime Minister might want to make that distinction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a1c1306234a47d3bf7d059aa21d5a33\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a Government agency. They have a separate board; they can make their own decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac034da14cca4baa8ea280e8a30dce6c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did his Government\u2019s decision to reintroduce charges for pharmacy prescriptions, slash public transport subsidies, and increase the cost of rubbish disposal increase or decrease the cost of living for New Zealand families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269e5b0eef0304f6ab643625c0c383100\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just say to that member: I am incredibly proud of what this Government is doing to help New Zealanders with the cost of living crisis. That member and his party did not vote for tax relief\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9ee57ba2f3c440aaece4409990abad8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, just talk about the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2694423d357486aa1ee70e952082f83\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they did not support the things that are helping New Zealanders improve their cost of living.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223027e9e4eb614f42bcba9a8b7c269ea4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does his Government\u2019s decision to increase the minimum wage by less than inflation for two years in a row\u2014meaning those earning the minimum wage earn less now in real terms than two years ago\u2014increase or decrease the cost of living crisis for low-income New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022751c15a676ea441a906795083b7824a3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m proud of the fact that we are increasing entitlements by roughly the amount of inflation. But what I\u2019m also proud about is the fact that real wage growth has grown for five quarters in a row, after declining for 13 quarters in a row under that Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3bd4ffa0adb4cae83f827f0c4205bc3\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that levies issued by the Natural Hazards Commission, formerly the Earthquake Commission, are driven by risk and global reinsurance costs; and if indeed the levy does have to increase, it will be because Labour left them\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b2d9631b1054b8e848e191f421e8942\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you can\u2019t ask a question like that. He can\u2019t speculate on that, but he can answer the body of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acd855ad2b0f4dbda4666cb25ce83cea\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I agree: insurance levies are based off risk profiles of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bc0c2cd62534f5f8bd702196229e679\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CThere might be just regular annual increments in some fees and levies across the piece, but that\u2019s not a major focus.\u201D, and, if so, does he acknowledge that increased costs for prescription charges, electricity lines charges, car registrations, car insurance levies, survey and title fees, insurance levies, and, in fact, fuel excise indicate that his priority isn\u2019t fees and levies that impact everyday New Zealanders but rather delivering tax cuts for landlords and tobacco companies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275e8e0167e294a269a1ff744b8084fec\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answering part of that question\u2014my focus is on making sure we run a great economy so New Zealanders can get ahead. We inherited a situation where the economy was run into the ground. We are making sure that we do everything we can to get growth back into New Zealand so we get money back into Kiwis\u2019 pockets so they can get out of the mess that we\u2019ve inherited thanks to that last Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002209aa20235ee54227bdce7bb7815688ef\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Economic Growth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb85f8430a734d6583a616a783a20ae7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb85f8430a734d6583a616a783a20ae7\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Growth: What recent announcements has she made regarding supermarket competition?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022eac04ef2c97a4e67b3af227a4fb6caad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eac04ef2c97a4e67b3af227a4fb6caad\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister for Economic Growth):\u003C/span\u003E On Sunday, I outlined the Government\u2019s next steps to drive more competition in the supermarket sector and deliver better grocery prices for Kiwi shoppers. I announced two things: first, a formal request for information (RFI) process to identify what is needed to support a significant, national-scale competitor to enter our grocery market. Second, I announced that I have commissioned specialist external advice on ways in which the existing supermarket duopoly could be restructured to improve competition. I would note that this approach is similar to that recommended by the last Cabinet in June 2023, when Minister Duncan Webb said that \u201CIt would make sense to consider the need for more detailed policy work on divestment to occur after the Commission makes its first report into the state of the grocery sector\u201D. That report was delivered in September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b02777d1af794d75a227808fdcfb41e5\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: What response has she seen to the announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cf5327468414e999e66b29c7ff3b7e9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: There have been a range of responses welcoming the Government\u2019s announcement, including from Grocery Action Group\u2019s Chair, Sue Chetwin, who said the announcements were \u201Cterrific news for Kiwi shoppers\u201D. Miss Chetwin said that \u201CWhile the many recent regulatory reforms of the supermarket sector have been worthwhile, none has effectively curbed the duopoly\u2019s market power.\u201D Well-known grocery commentator Ernie Newman said the announcements were \u201CA significant move\u201D, and \u201CThe good news is the sense of urgency\u201D. He added: \u201CThat said, this is necessarily a long-term project. I hope that all parties in Parliament will endorse the direction of travel.\u201D Of course, the Government\u2019s announcement builds on our coalition commitment with New Zealand First to ensure that there is greater competition in the supermarket sector. There are many other responses which reinforce the sentiment that change is needed, and I agree with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c734977cb1af4c0cbb276bb819654ab1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdf671012241476490f28a1b782644c0\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: What other work is under way to address supermarket competition?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217506dfc76ce4244874dd79263b0f27d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Commerce Commission is working to complete its wholesale inquiry, its analysis into land banking issues, and its second grocery report. My officials are also working to get as much involvement as possible in the RFI from market players, potential entrants, and investors. On that note, I was pleased to see on Sunday that Foodstuffs said in response to my announcements that it will \u201Cconstructively participate in the Government\u2019s RFI process.\u201D I welcome their involvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9db7ca4fe2b430984eaa498b64615cb\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: When will we see the next steps towards better competition in the grocery market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230f9b978e5df44888f4830c1e3467b7c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the RFI is proceeding at pace and will close after six weeks. In mid-2025, once I\u2019ve considered the evidence from the RFI and the Commerce Commission\u2019s additional work, I will bring further recommendations to Cabinet. Depending on what I hear, I may seek Cabinet\u2019s mandate to progress further design work on structural options to improve competition in the grocery sector. If legislation is needed, I would want to introduce it before the end of the year. We need to move fast and also with due care to ensure Kiwi shoppers get the benefits of stronger competition in our supermarket sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e789070662ae4f62991851dd1e645ea2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I wonder if I could ask the Minister the origin of this brilliant, thoughtful, considerate policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f6d8e6788ab42129ed3b48baabe946b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course, the number one driver of this is the fact that all the evidence points to a lack of competition in the New Zealand supermarket sector, and in particular the fact that New Zealanders are paying more for their groceries than counterparts in other countries. This was recognised in the coalition agreement between the National Party and the New Zealand First Party, which identified this as a priority area for work. The attempts by the last Government have, in the review of the Grocery Commissioner, not improved competition in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c11904c831994f67aad409151def7816\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s enough\u2014that\u2019s enough. Good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c00f970be554302afe3dd639840b9ec\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u00224ba6499b7a46406684813599ee910c33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ba6499b7a46406684813599ee910c33\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022b58a5cf90236497d9772566e923c585f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b58a5cf90236497d9772566e923c585f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a32ff75de96d4909a2606a41bfddf18a\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the statement of the Minister of Housing, who, when asked whether his Government\u2019s emergency housing policies were a success, replied, \u201CYes, we\u2019re very proud of it\u201D, and, if so, what is he more proud of: homelessness services across the country reporting increased homelessness or siphoning money out of services that our most vulnerable people in Aotearoa need to survive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022342ef730de3c448586f20de39d2cce65\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m incredibly proud that in a very short period of time, this Government has ended what I think is one of the blights on New Zealand\u2019s social policies\u2014the fact that we have taken 2,000 children out of squalid motel rooms and we have put them into proper, dry homes; the fact that we have taken 5,000 people off the State social housing wait-list who are desperate to get a home\u2014that is fantastic. And so we should be very proud about that, and I think the House would want to join with me on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214517f25b07d46ba92c39873c3c1a801\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Will he accept that it is his Government\u2019s decisions that are resulting in reports of increasing homelessness, with less people being able to access basic supports that were available even this time last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f801c2f0577247e081a564c918745a71\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. Government support is still available to people who need housing assistance, and will continue to be so. But what I am incredibly proud about is that emergency motel housing has been a major challenge in New Zealand for a decade or so\u2014we\u2019ve talked about it all the time\u2014and this Government has finally done something about it through good, active management and getting the job done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228400781b5d94437386fe335ea7f74f10\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he understand that being denied housing support from the Ministry of Social Development, resulting in even just one night sleeping on the street, can have lifelong consequences for our rangatahi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c95148108024eee9309825fa48aff6b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: There will always be Government support for people in need of housing. That has not changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd51ec26b1dd4257ac331df20ad9740b\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: So does he stand by the statement of his Minister of Housing that \u201CThere is always support available for people who are sleeping on the streets,\u201D and, if so, why are community-based homelessness organisations saying that they are unable to get support for people who urgently need housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c42cd93518f640b5beecc2d535a6dbd7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baa4967867484c64a585fd0a26bc40d3\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Will he commit to properly resourcing community-based providers who are already supporting those doing it tough, or will our rangatahi continue to be abandoned to sleep on our streets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9630731268a42e6a121965e8036846b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s line of questioning is not acknowledging that we had 3,141 families and households in motel accommodation in New Zealand\u2014completely and utterly unacceptable. This Government\u2014a Government that cares about outcomes, cares about people and making sure they find housing\u2014has reduced that to 591 families. We now have 2,000 kids out of motels and in proper houses. Whether that is State housing, social housing, transition housing, or the private rental market, that is a great outcome and we are very, very proud of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9ecf944c4c34712903e4f141cba9f0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9ecf944c4c34712903e4f141cba9f0a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There were at least five people on my left who were talking almost constantly through that answer. That is a barrage that has to stop, and the people who were part of that group of five will know who they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f4a3ccd8d8c44f4afe5898e5b5bb498\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022739104c7960147b09a1054e64a8dc7fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022739104c7960147b09a1054e64a8dc7fd\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does she stand by her statement, \u201CThe Government is focusing on the things that make a difference to the quality of people\u2019s lives\u201D; if so, do the changes coming in today reflect that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3f3ea587cf3429c8ea429b8f0cae5cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3f3ea587cf3429c8ea429b8f0cae5cb\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes and yes, because the annual general adjustment changes coming into effect today help New Zealanders, with greater increases to payments, including those who are receiving New Zealand superannuation, veteran\u2019s pensions, and benefits, which will help them with the cost of living. I note that for those that are adjusted according to the after-tax average wage, the increases are larger than they would have been otherwise because of the tax adjustments delivered by this Government in its first Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a100d865ce4d4df08199d6e3b4393d6e\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does a 35c per hour increase in the minimum wage\u2014less than the rate of inflation\u2014make a difference to the quality of people\u2019s lives? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef5102e8f24840f8a7e385536f51f161\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the first thing I would note is that our Cabinet is mindful of the fact that the minimum wage is paid by employers\u2014small businesses and medium businesses up and down the country\u2014and we are conscious that in recent years, they have undertaken a very difficult period in which they have faced significant inflation and rising interest rates. We want to ensure that they are now in a context where, given the choice between letting a worker go and hiring a new worker, we minimise the costs that they face and ensure that we do not put New Zealanders\u2019 jobs at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3ae2d35bd804be68ee9b1e5c057d0cc\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How does the planned removal of the living wage for Government-contracted cleaners, caterers, and security guards make a difference to the quality of people\u2019s lives? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e06d7de428d425e970fa8450c2a3c3e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The member is referring to the procurement changes which the Government is consulting on, which intend to improve the quality of New Zealanders\u2019 lives by ensuring that when the Government is choosing who to contract with, instead of ticking a lot of boxes, small businesses and medium businesses in New Zealand are invited to submit on the impact their business will have on New Zealand as a whole, including the jobs they create, the training they create, and the positive impact they have in their community. We think this economic impact test is an important way to ensure we make the most of Government procurement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b9f004bd9ee4feba1ba372ba729982a\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does removing free public transport fares for under-25s and reducing public transport subsidies make a difference to the quality of people\u2019s lives? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afb25cc805a446a3bb2e31335896744c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: In our first Budget, what we did was we ensured that we were able to offer tax relief to millions of New Zealanders, fully funded by savings across government, and what we can say is that that has allowed many New Zealanders to have more money in their bank accounts than would otherwise be the case. At the same time, we have ensured that inflation is back in the target range, minimising the price increases that New Zealanders face across the general economy, which has allowed interest rates to reduce\u2014again, improving the cost of living for many families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f4acbec3ac74faf8cf07ee56b5e0ad0\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How can she stand by her statement that she \u201Cis focusing on the things that make a difference to the quality of people\u2019s lives\u201D when public transport costs and car registration fees are up and power prices, insurance levies, and rates are up, but our lowest-paid workers only get a 35c an hour raise or won\u2019t receive the living wage? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254545bf9e19c4c81bbb6f3867348b768\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, picking up on the last part of that question, it\u2019s important to note that minimum-wage workers are in families with a range of different household circumstances, and what we have been advised is that in many cases, those workers will be eligible for additional Working for Families and accommodation supplement support, such that in some cases, a minimum wage increase will actually be eroded by the abatement in those payments that would occur otherwise. The significance of this is that, actually, what New Zealand families want is pretty simple. They actually want jobs, and we\u2019re ensuring our policies support that; they want a cost of living that\u2019s under control, and we\u2019ve ensured that a lower inflation rate delivers that; and they want to be part of an economy that\u2019s growing so that there are more and better-paid jobs and so that their cost of living is controlled in the medium term. The alternative approach is that of the last Government, where they sprayed the money hose around, crossed their fingers, and hoped, and what that delivered was a cost of living crisis that made many New Zealanders worse off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002203571b8925d2453fa6eaabe964cf5503\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Rail\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022475826e93ba84f9daa2d7a9f9e0f1e87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022475826e93ba84f9daa2d7a9f9e0f1e87\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Rail: Is the Cook Strait ferry replacement programme \u201Con track\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022eafdddf2e2644f07a14117651f0e8fad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eafdddf2e2644f07a14117651f0e8fad\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister for Rail):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. By Christmas 2029, two brand new ferries will have rail on them and it will save the taxpayer billions. This is met with positive reactions: Carl Findlay, Maritime Union, said, and I quote, \u201CParticularly happy for the workers who now know that they have a future\u201D. Nadine Taylor, Marlborough Mayor, said this: it\u2019s \u201Cthe certainty [that port] needs to move forward\u201D. Anthony Delaney, CentrePort, said this \u201Cgives \u2026 surety to all the people who rely on the provision of a safe, reliable and affordable ferry service\u201D. And Don Braid of Mainfreight said this: \u201CIt\u2019s a pragmatic, logical, sensible decision.\u201D And he went on to say this very important note: \u201Cthere\u2019s a good number of people, politicians included, who are a little na\u00EFve as to how much freight actually moves by rail\u201D. And then this self-appointed economist said this: \u201CRail-enabled ferries are a no-brainer\u201D\u2014that\u2019s Julie Anne Genter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa94644555844489a3678181a7b56f62\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: How does this Government\u2019s plan compare to previous plans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0b3063407b7426cbaab107388e5f461\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the greatest maritime fiction, since Moby-Dick, was delivered by Chris Hipkins when he said this: mega ferries \u201Cwasn\u2019t the wisest decision.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022903e02a55fac4fce87935473be35407e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: How was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253d33498c423477c9e8ee5d7abff3e2a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: How was that? It landed big time; that\u2019s how it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ce002f3d4444a439a4708ec1065d8aa\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s enough. You can\u2019t use a question to abuse the Opposition. You can talk about factual matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270ff2591801d416088b9c6ad6a307f9f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s what he said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e66055eb23bf467780f2444317b4357a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you didn\u2019t present it that way. Started out like you were reading a novel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a6f9669b0a347e7870fb1e0c7c2e0a3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: He said, \u201CHow did\u201D\u2014no, the question\u2014point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022643c3e53e032436a8987392051f72e43\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275adc45bd23947cd8fb46fd56b0e3664\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The question: \u201CHow does the Government\u2019s plan compare to 2020?\u201D That\u2019s them in power; that\u2019s their decision. You didn\u2019t stop that, did you? So here comes the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0db8de729e34261805153fcecbd49ab\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! The question\u2019s in order; the answer has to be as well. And so let\u2019s see how you go. You\u2019re a very experienced man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c42325b8aae44dda800f72d716ad2475\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: He need only ask Todd Valster, from the rail union, for an education. He said this\u2014well he used to work for him, see\u2014\u201CIt was the infrastructure and the terminals that blew out and just kept blowing out\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022381bb922ff804f54ba7378a8f0a6dc97\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: How will the road and rail marshalling yards be different compared to Project iReX?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9676721d75c4ae3a03569361e5e2912\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, under iReX, both yards were proposed to lift by a metre at huge expense. There\u2019s a lot of stone and concrete with new buildings, roads, and a rail on top. It was far beyond the modest alterations we had planned in 2020. They said lifting yards would mean extreme weather events would not disturb the ferry operations. That would have cost hundreds and billions of dollars alone. Here\u2019s the point: why build a halo around a car yard when you could increase the culverts to stop the build-up of water in the first place? This can be done at a fraction of the cost and means we can keep using existing yards. It\u2019s blindingly obvious to some of us, but not to those in charge between 2021 and 2023, or Mr Hipkins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a91f74855158417c91625c1eed8b069d\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: How have the terminal buildings been considered in the Minister\u2019s thinking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222d6be3d8b584dad974d7d1ca17c94bd\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: We are retaining the existing terminal buildings. They are simple structures that can battle weather and earthquakes. Picton has a new concrete foundation, a steel structure, and we have been told it has a long future. Wellington\u2019s building is in the right location beside the wharf, and so certain was KiwiRail and CentrePort about the terminal\u2019s future that they started building a new baggage area months ago. The previous Government\u2019s plan included\u2014unbelievably\u2014multi-storey new terminals with concrete so thick there was barely any room for the passengers and fixtures; so flash, even Louis XIV would have been embarrassed. While some may regret the absence of a Taj Mahal in Picton and the Sydney Opera House in Wellington, the people paying their taxes will not. And that\u2019s why, over there, it hurts so much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab26bf1f94b14acd889489fce9e26140\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u00229623cb076d0e4001b9d52a0026c7a19e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229623cb076d0e4001b9d52a0026c7a19e\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00221b2c0e857edc41bd9ad51d43fb785c47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b2c0e857edc41bd9ad51d43fb785c47\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022771c72b4473f4c569ce5e7e23f2ffe19\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: What is he doing to address systemic violence against M\u0101ori by the police, in light of three incidents in the past months alone where an 11-year-old autistic child was misidentified by police and forcibly medicated at the Henry Bennett Centre; a 15-year-old boy had his jaw broken by police in Napier; and Sam Matue, who was tasered, pepper sprayed by police, then died on the scene while being arrested at \u014Crere Point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022060c68f582be48a4b2e78333d722a63c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I won\u2019t comment on individual cases, as that member will understand, given investigations that are ongoing, but I just say that I am very, very proud of the police, and I back our police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e595c47614c947a39b66bdaa4cda904c\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Will he support the M\u0101ori Party policy requiring police officers to wear mandatory body cameras for their own safety and for the safety of the public, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d7d86650baa44f781421283d8fa0e7f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll take my advice from the Police, and if that is a tool that they wish to have, I back them with any tools that they need to do their job. But I\u2019m very proud that our police are out there on the beat. They\u2019ve increased the beat police by 30 percent, and the public are feeling safer in their businesses, in their homes, and in their community, and that\u2019s a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c81f79b313e44ec93da0fd50893225c\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Will his Government implement the recommendations of the Understanding Policing Delivery report, in which the New Zealand Police found that structural racism within the policies is the reason M\u0101ori are more likely to be stopped, tasered, and prosecuted than any other group; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4dd772500b040c881d9070ca9c534cb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I back our police. Our police are out there making sure that they catch criminals and that they keep the community safe. They do a great job. There are obviously processes that people can have investigations or can make complaints around, but our police, each and every day, are out there protecting and serving this community, and I\u2019m proud of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022541fce90a1a4454b8ed45375874b0793\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept any discrimination in the Police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022468b4159f5904918a9bf557b8f9ed619\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t agree, with statements that I have seen, that there is structural, racial discrimination in the Police at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288954ae4687b42aa89d7e2577e581204\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Why is his Government considering giving a further $1.2\u00A0billion in corporate tax cuts, on top of the $3 billion he has already given to landlords, when 46 percent of retail-trade companies paid no income tax at all in the last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e80cd84669949329d8ec0420993d03e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I don\u2019t understand the question that the member\u2019s asking. Can he repeat it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a67efe2336a452c951c3a9ccd85bd77\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Why is his Government considering giving a further $1.2\u00A0billion in corporate tax cuts, on top of the $3 billion he has already given to landlords, when 46 percent of retail-trade companies paid no income tax at all in the last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cebfa062bbe74de0a69e32913d709610\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, well, there\u2019s no decisions that have been made, but I just say to that member, we want to make sure we get our tax and regulatory settings as good and as competitive as they can be so that we can unleash growth in this economy. We want growth, growth, growth. We want that above everything else. It\u2019s so important. It\u2019s how Kiwis get ahead. That\u2019s what we\u2019re focused on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b529b327e364291a3214b0cdb683971\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, sir. The first portion of that question\u2014why did you not intervene? It\u2019s a long-established tradition in this House, consistent with the Standing Orders, that any Police matter that may involve investigations should not be traversed in question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286cf67d289e94861a44900d80753c175\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s a good point. I\u2019ll have to take that on board and consider it further. I think the question was satisfactorily answered, though, in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002269b9d737eb8749ccbe1bae77da49068a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00226c35f51fa7b341f697b2d7fcd2c3eab3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c35f51fa7b341f697b2d7fcd2c3eab3\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Are her policies working; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u002229eb1f5f63dc4c479be80403d8fe11cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229eb1f5f63dc4c479be80403d8fe11cb\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. We have been working hard to create a more proactive welfare system to support more job seekers into work. In the year to February 2025, there were 67,281 exits from the jobseeker benefit into work\u2014an increase of 11 percent from the year before\u2014despite the challenging economic conditions. We also know our policies are working because 98.1 percent are at green under the traffic light system, which means they are meeting their work obligations. Our Government is relentlessly focused on growing the economy, because when businesses have the confidence to grow and succeed, it\u2019s good for jobs, it\u2019s good for people, and it\u2019s good for the incomes of New Zealand families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250b2c7bee74b40049fd6d937115af9ae\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Salvation Army that \u201Cbenefit sanctions had little to nothing to do with them finding a job.\u201D, and, if so, why is she pursuing a programme that doesn\u2019t work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc57af93b78b4dd5b7d226ca790fcb76\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I disagree with that member because, as I said, 98.1 percent of those who are on benefit are complying with their work obligations. They\u2019re taking the steps they need to. The economic conditions we inherited mean it\u2019s a very challenging labour market, but, despite that, there has been an 11 percent increase on last year of people leaving the jobseeker benefit and going to a job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f50843888b944998cc19a99b5bfc408\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was about the Salvation Army, not about myself. I can put the question again, if you like. That\u2019s no problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b6f101605bb4d80b518bef6cb9f67c0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c23890b55ed43388f930ebed67ae9b4\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Put it again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022108e6a2470f6429e9aa573ba21009628\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fba4a3313c64f1fbc239f46064550b7\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Does she agree with the Salvation Army that \u201Cbenefit sanctions had little to nothing to do with them finding a job.\u201D, and, if so, why is she pursuing a programme that doesn\u2019t work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4573f34bb104568bb568daa917bd01d\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I disagree with the Salvation Army, just like I disagree with that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022141b868f2a81436fb76dd035a705f0a7\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister comfortable with 22,000 more people on a jobseeker benefit, a jump of 12 percent in 12 months, who were potentially made homeless as a result of her punitive sanction policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220421eea7f9914c0aafef477d2a311ebf\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m proud of the result that our Government has in terms of an 11 percent increase in the number of people leaving the jobseeker benefit into a job. I\u2019d love to be in a position where we didn\u2019t inherit the economic environment that we have, where high levels of inflation and interest rates mean that we\u2019re now dealing with higher levels of unemployment than we\u2019d like. But we\u2019re dealing with the problem. We\u2019re getting people into work, we\u2019re taking the steps that are necessary, and our Government is ensuring that more New Zealanders have the opportunities to be in a job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cfa6170a3024ef5afc80f1615d2a749\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Does she expect that more students will be arrested at the border as a result of her policy to increase interest rates on overseas borrowers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dec22eb3897a4c62b77cc3d29037fd09\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is an operational matter, but what we are focused on, on our side of the Government, whether it\u2019s in welfare or student loans, is that we want to see people fulfil their obligations. There are rights and responsibilities that they owe to other taxpayers. We expect them to fulfil them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228655739259a7464492eb21d59a4e021b\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: How can the community have confidence in her policies when under her leadership there are 22,000 more people on the jobseeker benefit, and she said that she would support the workers of Kinleith, but it\u2019s shut down and more people are unemployed than compared to this time last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1b39bc3109b4971bde648919720f98d\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I\u2019ve said, it would be great for this side of the House if we didn\u2019t inherit the unfortunate economic climate that we did. We always knew\u2014and Treasury forecasts from the previous Government as well as from our Government expected unemployment rates to rise. That is indisputable. What is on record, though, is our success in actually getting people off the jobseeker benefit into work. We\u2019re still ambitious. We have a target\u201450,000 fewer people on the jobseeker is a target that\u2019s worth working for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229280434477c3465a8dc8e924a6e23b22\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022fea16385a540473e90101d548b47e34f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fea16385a540473e90101d548b47e34f\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What recent reports has he seen on trust and confidence in the Police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00225b3e36b2a5b341118e75befd2fe68959\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b3e36b2a5b341118e75befd2fe68959\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E The New Zealand Crime and Victims Survey Cycle 7, taken from October 2023 to October 2024, showed that, for the first time since the introduction of the Police module to the survey, the proportion of people with high trust and confidence in Police increased from 67 percent to 69 percent. This coincided with the proportion of people with no trust and confidence in Police dropping to its lowest level, at 2 percent. This research confirms that a visible presence of Police, and community engagement, such as the community beat teams, impact positively on trust and confidence in the Police and reverse a trend of declining confidence in Police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f3bf428896443d4abc39e1043a4fec7\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: What other good results for Police were reported in the survey?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bd4a95c64cc452f9ff2801c1c3ba1eb\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: In Cycle 7, 74 percent of people who had contact with Police were satisfied with that contact. The number of people who were dissatisfied decreased significantly\u2014from 16 percent the year prior to 12 percent last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deddd6523365498c929f9b306f60fca2\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he think trust and confidence in Police went up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223833e3ca7ad54749a64c8c4dd244f02e\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: The initiative of the community beat teams has played an important role in having Police visible in cities, reassuring the public. I know that Police are doing outstanding work to respond to crime: the targeting of boy racers in the Hawke\u2019s Bay and Wairarapa over the last month that resulted in infringements and impoundments, or responding quickly to reports of a sighting of a person holding a firearm outside an Auckland address yesterday and seizing two pistols, a shotgun, and a rifle. It\u2019s critical in letting communities know that Police have their backs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287f2327563034e6eae29d3a8000c4e77\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: How have communities responded to the increased presence of police out and about? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275e0aeaeb709438995b2f81ed1735ccd\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve seen a recent media query to Police that asked them to comment on a poll run by The Star newspaper in Christchurch, which shows 82 percent of respondents feel safer as a result of beat patrols. The Canterbury metro area commander responded, noting that the poll aligned with the feedback that Police have been receiving and a 5.8 percent reduction of victimisations in his area. On this side of the House, we back our police. That stands in stark contrast to some people who now think that the Green Party has raised some legitimate issues with regards to our police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e2fec226f1844ba91bbf862546c04e0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022996a5ddecd15480fb86519f9dc6bd2fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022996a5ddecd15480fb86519f9dc6bd2fb\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does she stand by all her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce986f8fd5724cd1a3e5a0b619c69d9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce986f8fd5724cd1a3e5a0b619c69d9b\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context they were given. In particular, my commitment to delivering a knowledge-rich, year-by-year, world-leading and internationally comparable curriculum. Yesterday, the Ministry of Education released the draft year 7 to 13 English curriculum for consultation. It is underpinned by the science of learning and designed to support teaching the basics brilliantly. There are clear progression outcomes in spelling, grammar, sentence structure, reading, writing comprehension, and oral language. The draft also proposes a new requirement for year 12 and 13 students to consider at least one work by Shakespeare, one 19th century text, and texts by New Zealand authors as part of their studies. We believe in setting all Kiwi kids up for success and this is just another step we\u2019re taking to do just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b94d65e82aa49dfbcea3e07693d3760\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she tell the House that she is, \u201Ckept up to date\u201D about school lunches, when she wasn\u2019t informed of Libelle\u2019s liquidation by David Seymour when he knew a week earlier and had told the Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d68d67dc7bc64083a5439794225477d0\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Because the Associate Minister of Education and I had a conversation twice around these issues where he kept me up to date with their supply issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228715501386ba4db6b4fc808834b374e6\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Why was she, as the Minister of Education, the last to know about Libelle\u2019s liquidation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da6a03136b414e308e23f226d2b3bc65\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: My expectation of the Associate Minister is that he was solely focused on the continuation of supply of school lunches during that period, which he was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261cf4d941ac1435097acaa1a3e1bf210\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Does she have confidence in her Associate Minister given he did not inform her about Libelle\u2019s liquidation when he knew five days earlier?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a12e96692588408cb163802e505f7ac1\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I have confidence in the Associate Minister to ensure continuation of supply during that time, which he did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de7ca3e18df34d309f6a2136464712c2\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Why won\u2019t she step in and fix the school lunches programme when research shows students are getting meals that fail nutrition standards and give them around half the energy they used to get under the old model, given the overwhelming evidence that underfed kids fall behind at school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bfd50c15df4474ba1a921f7fbbe832c\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The delegation for school lunches is the responsibility of the Associate Minister, and any decisions around that are decisions for the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbb1b84627ca43368844c31c3c941f9f\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the school lunch programme has been contracted to deliver meals at the same nutritional level as last year and the years prior, when, none the less, up to 40 percent of meals were found not to meet the contracted standard, and can she confirm or at least tell the House what yesterday\u2019s on-time delivery numbers were?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad2516fac4404adc84df5038c1e26ae7\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: In response to the second part of the question, I understand that yesterday, I think, around 112,000 meals were delivered, and the on-time delivery rate was 99.5 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e496d2d31ba43bb905d815bcd63775a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022af67702948ab479bb0ecc21cfcc2312f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af67702948ab479bb0ecc21cfcc2312f\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022f07b5ae46ec64e8ba1246b6dc7836dd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f07b5ae46ec64e8ba1246b6dc7836dd5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022020a1f08bad64dab9971879c9685359d\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister think \u201Cprofit is a good thing\u201D, as he said in question time last week, in the context of supermarkets making $1 million in excess profits a day? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfc3efdd0fce4837bc8431767aef87cc\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We think profit is a good thing. Excessive profit is a bad thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa57630b9bb148e4bcf277a135a6c110\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that a fixation on profit at all costs leads to a rising cost of living for New Zealanders, as found in analysis through the COVID period that rising profits contributed to more than half of domestic inflationary pressure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e24a2b901f834c74b4a4f5a52e0c48c7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member seems to have a challenge or a problem with organisations making a profit. My point is that that is a good thing. They are investing, they\u2019re taking risks, they\u2019re investing capital in order to drive growth, and we support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cd99fd76f8c488bbb17a1923769975a\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that the prioritisation of profit at all costs, without any Government intervention, results in concentration of market power and higher cost of living for New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022700ecbb750d540ffa88cb922f1ee8183\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I accept is that we want to tap into as much investment from overseas domestically in order to get more roads built, to do more mining, to do more housing, to do more schools so that we can actually get the economy growing with great infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c315e6b6a57144e19474e776c0254b1e\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Are there any circumstances, such as in, say, healthcare, education, or when we see it so clearly driving the cost of living, where the Prime Minister might agree that corporate profiteering is not \u201Ca good thing\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229246d55dc58d4abf981765846bbd8247\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I just reject totally the way the member is characterising profits. The reality is that corporates and businesses, people out there, 97 percent of our businesses in New Zealand are small businesses. They are people who take a risk, they invest their capital, they build a business, they employ people, they grow an economy, they create opportunity and choices for families. They should be celebrated, and it\u2019s right that they make a return. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed292e037a964954a840af20208c47e3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Prime Minister please explain that if a business does not make a profit, it goes broke, and the employer, and employee, the staff, and everybody loses their work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b5cd178637e48d294eda6ff3feb2287\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly right; that\u2019s how it works. If you don\u2019t make money\u2014as we saw because of a short-sighted energy policy that led to mills laying off workers because they couldn\u2019t be profitable, they couldn\u2019t make a return to cover the investments that they\u2019ve got in their capital and their assets\u2014that\u2019s exactly what happens. If you care about low and middle income working New Zealanders, you run and manage the economy as a fiscal conservative. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing in this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cded93c37fd64cd6ac3b9bc6fd560125\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister see, understand, and articulate a difference between excessive corporate profiteering and the profits of the likes of small New Zealand - owned businesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e0d335440984e87801e492052d64bc3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Changing your tune now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b778949afeeb45c999d0ad025600b86b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Wait on, wait on. Sorry. Once you\u2019ve asked the question, let someone answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022528401028e964d96877efee84dae05fe\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, could you repeat the question. I want this on the record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6f1d96625874bcf80a97d34eda133d8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When the House is quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c53b3a838ddd4e868e59ed5cdb4e8f97\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister understand and articulate, for the public of this country, the difference between excessive corporate profiteering and the likes of profits from small New Zealand - owned businesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a24e6ec723294288b6986b384c4e76ed\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I understand business and commerce well. I just say to that member that businesses making profits is a good thing. Where there are market failures, where there are excessive profits, it\u2019s why we have a Commerce Commission, some guidelines, some rules around all of that\u2014that continues under this Government. But I just reject the member\u2019s degrowth mindset from her party. That is not what New Zealand needs right now. If you are a working New Zealander and you want to create a future for your kids or your grandkids, you need growth. For that to happen, we need free enterprise, and we need companies and businesses to be able to make profits. That\u2019s not a bad thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1ceb0854ddf4aa2a4cf0c1351d8e9a8\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree that the profit motive is a key principle of a capitalist market economy, and would he advocate other forms of economic philosophy such as, for example, Marxism?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8e1a7285df14de788e35ab137b3b26f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry. [Interruption] That was asking the Prime Minister to answer a question for which he has no responsibility. He may have an opinion, but not as a Prime Minister. Those sorts of questions are going to be dealt with very severely from this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6215aa9e4a54dfb87d77a960aec4e25\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister, or any member of his Cabinet, tend to take the views of someone who started a small business which went bust on them in about five weeks, and then comes to this Parliament and starts preaching to the rest of us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206b28bea42e64743bb29a9309550d332\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I doubt he has any particular responsibility for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb0b8c9c67ed46b7a6e19446472a892f\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm there is not only great value in Shakespeare but there\u2019s value in the book called The Wealth of Nations\u2014although the former has a famous saying, \u201CWe are [the] stuff [upon which] dreams are made [of]\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224852f723bb0e4ea88bcf462df2cfdea3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I think there are a lot of merits in Adam Smith, yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273097e6fe3f9490e90d8a3990435fd54\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question 11, Tangi Utikere. [Interruption] No, I tell you what, just wait. There are a whole lot of people seeming to want to have a bit of a say while you\u2019re about to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e48a7eac2bb54698b183d2ac088f9075\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Rail\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00225b9c522b594a4118b01bc90992b81a31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b9c522b594a4118b01bc90992b81a31\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Rail: When will New Zealanders know the cost of their new Interislander ferries and how the requisite port-side infrastructure will be funded?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002210d84c67b1f54a96b5ea8439b6c862d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210d84c67b1f54a96b5ea8439b6c862d3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister for Rail):\u003C/span\u003E Later this year. We will not approach this like Wellington Water, by which we mean revealing our budget while negotiating the price. That turns a buyer\u2019s market into a seller\u2019s market. When these ship and port agreements, when they are signed, the member will know the total cost and the shares between the Government and the ports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeab90aad1934759af22604ed16e3745\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Is he then simply kicking the costs for required port-side infrastructure upgrades on to ratepayers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022434be5adb0b84174a04ba228fc6a70c6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can you repeat that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3cd4a65fc4f46c8bae42b23d6bca900\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Repeat the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9dd800958e94de6be286e8ec1fc4d6b\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Is he simply, then, kicking the costs for required port-side infrastructure upgrades on to ratepayers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b293e749298d46c08ecfffabee4f84d5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is that the land-side infrastructure costs and funding will be included in our ferries update, and this was the ferries update which was sent to Cabinet. As we said yesterday, today, and no doubt again tomorrow, until the lesson sinks in: we do not show the budget to the contractor. We have set aside sufficient funding, and it is billions less than the previous Government planned on spending, and Ferry Holdings will now negotiate with shipyards and ports on those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afda04d9b5d44e5ca0aa1e1431b21236\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: How much disruption will New Zealanders face with fewer Interislander sailings over the next 4\u00BD years until his ferries arrive, given operating the Aratere until 2029 is \u201Csimply not possible\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6cbed55e302440f987fe699e9dfc3f2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: All the advice that we have had from KiwiRail is that the requisite cargo and passenger movements will be up to scratch, and that was supported by somebody from Mainfreight\u2014who would know more about this than anybody in this House\u2014when he said it was just plain common sense to go forward in this way. We are going to be ahead of the market when we get these new ships as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262c784f7e6c8447a87aaf86c8b6daf96\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Is the plan that he has announced after three months better than the deal Nicola Willis couldn\u2019t deliver in one year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba4b944c86084559a2328be8d225f534\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The reality was that Nicola Willis, as Minister of Finance, inherited a nightmare. She was facing a blowout which Treasury forecast to go to $4 billion and beyond when she was going to be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccc795c2c4d443f4974b65fc38b90946\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263c0a1a90fa4497c891b65026f2b4b5a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I know it\u2019s rubbish. That\u2019s your specialty\u2014that\u2019s why I\u2019m talking about it. It\u2019s total rubbish. And we stopped that rubbish and the Minister then had to make a decision, which, weighed against other options, was not the right decision. But she did make the right decision to look at other options. That\u2019s two right decisions, which is two right decisions, unique to a Minister of Finance in the last nine years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2dc02dce34b40ddb69f649baa05711c\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Why is his Government willing to spend more than 15 months and over $1 billion only to leave Kiwis adrift, waiting three years longer for new Interislander ferries and still with no idea of how much they will cost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abe6aff9a0754d4d9a89444ff047015c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Because the option was to buy two massive ferries for which there was no infrastructure, and repeat what\u2019s happening in Tasmania right now. They\u2019ve got two new ferries and no infrastructure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe29b02f93ca454a864ba44e754123da\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Who ordered them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c1403a43b3c4f4e9f595a12b6edcb7e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they can\u2019t even use the ships. What\u2019s wrong with that? Well, it\u2019s not moron time over here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1b6ba9bf52149688b9a6e0318231fb9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdd82b9aa3c947c8a5cdded1b04f4755\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdd82b9aa3c947c8a5cdded1b04f4755\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call on question No. 12, in response to the point of order raised by the Hon Shane Jones, police inquiries are not sub judice, and members can raise matters related to those cases. The prohibitions are through Standing Order 116, where a prosecution or a court is hearing a case; or if there is a question of an independent prosecution, which is Speaker\u2019s Ruling 182/4. While members can\u2019t always know whether or not a matter is before the courts, Ministers most certainly would be expected to know that and respond accordingly. So the question, in short, was in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022215baca2d9d840f9a17205ae18b59221\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Building and Construction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u00227c04897002f040a4b149001c366bd916\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c04897002f040a4b149001c366bd916\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Building and Construction: What is the Government doing to lower building costs and make it easier to build?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae72e4ae8bfa465a8db40c7bf023d89d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae72e4ae8bfa465a8db40c7bf023d89d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E As I\u2019ve commented before in this House in response to a similarly searching line of question previously, we want to make it more affordable and also to enable people to build more on time. For that reason, we are working on the building costs, which have increased by 40 percent since 2019, and we\u2019re taking decisive action this week with, all going well, the passage of the overseas building products legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245f6c2ae2c5a45ad92600babad5683e0\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Building (Overseas Building Products, Standards, and Certification Schemes) Amendment Bill do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa29d0c836374c349761bf12d3dcdf3b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: This bill will make it easier to use high-quality building products in construction sites all across New Zealand. Currently, each of the 67 different building consent authorities approves building products, and because the councils currently have joint and several liability, they can be on the hook for as much as 100 percent of the total cost of a failure. And, therefore, they\u2019re extremely risk-averse and only approve familiar products. For this reason, there\u2019s often little competition and we see the establishment of effective near monopolies. We\u2019re determined to do something about that to improve competition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fd14f5b55cd473ca3634196af7d7b8e\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: Will this mean a drop in building standards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d400c53626a6464382c1695ee8168a98\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks for the opportunity to address this question. The answer is, of course, absolutely not, and we have designed the legislation in such a way that will ensure that only equal or higher standards from overseas are to be met in New Zealand in order for the scheme to qualify. In passing, I\u2019m pleased that, across the House, this point has been recognised, and we\u2019ve enjoyed the support of various different political parties so far in the passage of the legislation. And so I commit that we will continue to consider whether the jurisdictions overseas that we will be leaning into are comparable and credible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eae7fccecbd949cfb2ccc6ce25d026f6\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What else is the Government doing to lower building prices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221472a482d42e43168f2b1b222a63d632\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Last month, we published the first annual set of data across the nation for building-consent processing time frames that takes into account the real time involved in the issuing of consents. In other words, we were able to highlight that in two out of every three cases, councils have been pausing the issuing of building consents. Now, whatever the reason for those pauses having been made, nevertheless, the effect is that the real-world productivity gap has not been highlighted so clearly before. And, for this reason, in terms of the overseas building products but also the other major work that we\u2019re taking on, streamlining inspections, making trusted builders accountable for their work, and structural reform of the building consent authorities will continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fb34bfa222ea430e8076761f700ce49a\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2023/24 Confirmation and Validation) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002273f60133d77440c691f8df6c30cf0dad\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4ba08abc28641c4a4b1534611a5c5d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4ba08abc28641c4a4b1534611a5c5d9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Appropriation (2023/24 Confirmation and Validation) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c471b2232245456a9a3a8eb09d6252a3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2023/24 Confirmation and Validation) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000245\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e12f1ce3527407f94d5e41ddb7a6c10\u0022\u003EChild Protection (Child Sex Offender Government Agency Registration) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002205c644ce2013451b9137863c2852b996\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000248\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 27 March.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u002260ed74a728634b5ca746cfc22dfd5cea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260ed74a728634b5ca746cfc22dfd5cea\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. Any bill or Act that places mokopuna and tamariki at the centre of the discussion is, in our view, worthy of debate. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori supports the idea of improving the effectiveness of the child sex offender register, the clarification in the Act, and making it more applicable, I guess, and workable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThe proposed amendments are designed to protect to make safer places for children and young people, preventing the reoccurrence of abuse. Seventy percent of children in State care are tamariki M\u0101ori, and 80 percent of those who face abuse within the system are M\u0101ori. In 2017, it was revealed that 37 percent of victims of sexual violence within Child, Youth and Family care services were M\u0101ori. The recent abuse in care report delivered in this House showed up over the years how badly we have done, and, I would say, we still do poorly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThe only way these numbers will decrease for M\u0101ori is when healthy, nutritious food is available; when warm homes and strong communities surround our mokopuna; when te reo M\u0101ori is the norm; when wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi systems are flourishing; and when cultural imperatives and cultural qualities are appreciated and understood and when this is systemic of public services. By the way, Wh\u0101nau Ora is a perfect expression of all of those things, but\u2014no surprises\u2014this has also been taken away by the Government. Why? Because it works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ELater this evening, we will continue the debate on the repeal of section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act. How ironic it is that we\u2019re prepared to care and protect the most vulnerable\u2014and this bill does that\u2014but it\u2019s what we\u2019re prepared to remove in terms of the care, protection, and understanding of what it means for mokopuna M\u0101ori. On the basis of these reminders and the points of fact reflected in this, we tautoko this next step in this bill. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022b857215c53f9408a9f74ab78ed56a424\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b857215c53f9408a9f74ab78ed56a424\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party in support of the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Government Agency Registration) Amendment Bill. As we heard from my colleague Kahurangi Carter and also from our previous speaker, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi, this is an important step, because, at the end of the day, child sexual abuse has a devastating and lifelong impact, not only on individual survivors but also on their wh\u0101nau and communities. We must also thank those people who submitted as part of the select committee process, because, again, this is something that is nuanced, it is complex, and it is emotional. We would like to thank the submitters who submitted on this bill and spoke on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think, broadly speaking, when we are looking at this bill, we understand the impact, from those submitters, that it has on their wellbeing and on the wellbeing of tamariki in Aotearoa. We also want to acknowledge the fact that there is preliminary evidence around this by the New Zealand Police and by some of the work that has been done on looking into the evidential basis. Our understanding\u2014and I\u2019ll come to that\u2014around the section 7 report by the Attorney-General is that, domestically and internationally, the evidence on the registry is inconclusive; however, despite that, what we can see internationally is that, when we have registries which are restricted to law enforcement use and are coupled with comprehensive supervision and treatment programmes, including what we\u2019re seeing in Aotearoa New Zealand, it does suggest that they may contribute to reducing the recidivism rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think, for this particular scenario and for this particular bill, I really want to echo the previous speaker on the fact that we are having conversations around child protection, which is incredibly important, on the same day as we, as a Government, are looking to repeal section 7AA from the Oranga Tamariki Act. I think, in that sense, we do wonder if child protection is at the heart of the Government\u2019s decision making, and also, in terms of the cultural needs that we are seeing, because we must recognise also that M\u0101ori are disproportionately harmed, both as perpetrators, offenders, but also, themselves, as victims of abuse, which has come out incredibly clearly and incredibly prominently in the report on State abuse and faith-based care abuse that we saw last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWe must also address some of the tensions to do with this bill, and I would like to note both in terms of the section 7 report by the Attorney-General as well as the submission done by the New Zealand Law Society that what we are seeing is that there are elements of this bill that fundamentally challenge our understanding and our interpretation of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990, and for us to have a section 7 report is not something we take lightly. I think, in this case, we are looking at particularly the Law Society\u2019s submission on this, which opposes the retrospective element of the bill, and I think this is something that is significant that we must address during the committee stage. We are also seeing what seems to be inconsistency around the idea of double jeopardy, as well as other elements, such as section 25G, I believe, of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWe will be putting forward Amendment Papers to consider during the committee stage that will ensure that this bill follows the purpose and the intent around child protection and, at the same time, is done in a way that is most consistent with our New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. And we would request that the Government consider these amendments seriously. With that, like I said in the beginning, the Green Party is in support of this bill, and we will look forward to the discussion during the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f65d649f5d964393890667ddd9da23b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f65d649f5d964393890667ddd9da23b3\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to speak in support of the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Government Agency Registration) Amendment Bill. This bill enables Government agencies to better manage the risk posed by child sex offenders in our community. It enhances the options and the effectiveness in the operation of the Child Sex Offender Register. The harm caused by child sexual offending is significant. It is something that we need to look to protect against, and to improve the protections against through this amendment bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003EThis bill is about improving the effectiveness of the register and, in turn, supporting police and other agencies to make our communities safer. It requires offenders to provide additional information, in terms of the registration, around things like their location and their activities. I thought, for the benefit of the House and for those listening, in a moment I\u2019ll go through some of those key changes, some of the most substantive amendments that enable that to happen. Other amendments will make it easier for offenders to comply with their reporting obligations, such as enabling offenders to provide some of their reporting via phone. There are eight substantive amendments to the primary legislation and the operation of the Child Sex Offender Register through this amendment bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003EFirst of all, it requires offenders to report if a child is going to be living at the same address as them 48 hours prior to it happening, rather than currently it being up to 72 hours after that child moves into the location that they are at or vice versa. Secondly, it requires offenders to report if they are attending education or training courses, and clarifies that voluntary work does require reporting. Thirdly, it clarifies how \u201Clocality\u201D is defined for offenders who do not have a permanent address in New Zealand. Fourthly, it enables notices to be served to offenders by electronic means as well as a continuation of the postal option. Six, it requires offenders travelling out of the country to report this information at least seven days in advance of their overseas travel, rather than the current 48 hours prior. Seven, it clarifies that where a successful application against registration happens, that information contained in the register that relates to the offender must be removed. And, number eight, the requirement that an application for review has to be made within 28 days of registration\u2014it removes that requirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003EIndeed, I think I may have missed one of my eight there, and I just want to make sure I\u2019ve covered all\u2014yes. So, ultimately, this bill is another example of the National-led coalition Government\u2019s focus on law and order, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5c68739743f4d7e9898c726aebfaf15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5c68739743f4d7e9898c726aebfaf15\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. We speak in support of this bill today. It\u2019s a crucial step towards strengthening our child protection laws and also ensuring the safety of our tamariki. We stand firmly in support of this bill because, fundamentally, it is about safeguarding our children and providing a framework that enables that to keep occurring in New Zealand. We want to make sure that not only the Police, but other agencies within New Zealand have the appropriate tools to make sure our children and young people are kept as safe as they possibly can be\u2014particularly if there are known sex offenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt is important to be clear that this bill is not about creating a new offence. It is about ensuring that individuals who have already been convicted of sex offences or serious crimes against children are appropriately monitored to prevent any further harm occurring within our communities. It tightens registration requirements, it increases reporting obligations, and it introduces necessary amendment to the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Government Agency Registration) Act, which was passed back in 2016. These changes, we think, will improve the effectiveness of the Child Sex Offender Register and enhance the ability of both Police and Corrections to track and manage the risks that exist around known sex offenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces a series of important changes, and I\u2019ll quickly run through those. First of all, it expands the range of personal information that registered sex offenders must report. It now includes things like attending education or training courses; also, ensuring that authorities can assess whether a registered offender may pose any risk to children or young people in those settings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESecondly, it requires earlier notice for a change in residence\u2014this is an important one. Offenders will now be required to report that a child will be residing at the same address at least 48 hours before that in fact occurs, rather than 72 hours previously. This is a really important shift as it provides the ability for earlier intervention, risk assessment, and also notification to caregivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe third is enhancing the reporting requirements for travel\u2014and I\u2019d like to note that Labour member Greg O\u2019Connor already had a member\u2019s bill in this space. Registered offenders must now go and report their intended travel overseas at least seven days in advance, instead of the 48-hour requirement. They will also be required to report their return to New Zealand within 72 hours electronically, or they\u2019re able to do this by telephone as well. That was opposed to the previous 10-day in-person requirement. So this ensures that authorities remain informed and can act swiftly if required to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis bill also clarifies definitions and improves the administration of the register. It includes defining what constitutes the locality of offenders without a fixed address, and allowing notices to be served electronically, not just by post, which can cause unnecessary and needless delay. These changes improve efficiency and eliminate unnecessary delays in managing registered sex offenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe removing of the 28-day time limit for appealing registration decisions: there appeared to be no valid justification for limiting the ability of a person to challenge an error in their registration status. This amendment ensures that individuals have a right to a fair review, improving the integrity of the register. It\u2019s important to note there has been some discussion around this, on the retrospective application and human rights considerations that we also considered at committee. We noted that the majority of these amendments do in fact have a retrospective effect, and that means they will not just apply to new people on the Sex Offender Register, but these changes will apply to all of those people already on the Sex Offender Register. We know that some argue that this raises concerns under the New Zealand Bill of Rights, particularly regarding freedom from double jeopardy and the right to benefit from a lesser penalty. Parliament did examine similar concerns in previous amendments to the Act and found that balancing public interest and protecting children outweighed these considerations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Justice has noted the bill may also engage the right to freedom of expression under section 14 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act due to the requirement for offenders to report certain types of information. However, these are necessary and proportionate if we want to put in adequate protections for children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe support this bill, primarily because we want to put our children first and foremost and we want to prevent them from incurring any harm at all. We initiated this bill, and it\u2019s good to see that it\u2019s proceeded under this Government. The Government has made some minor tweaks, but, fundamentally, there\u2019s a continuation of the same work that we started. While we acknowledge there will always be room for further improvements, we want to make sure that individuals who pose a risk to children are kept under a framework\u2014that this provides\u2014to reduce those risks as much as possible. This strengthens the existing framework that\u2019s been working well, and it identifies gaps that are existing there. It also moves with modern times, to make sure that we are using electronic notifications to make sure that when a risk is being flagged, it\u2019s being acted on as quickly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe support this bill because it prioritises the wellbeing of our most vulnerable: our children. It is our duty as MPs and legislators to do everything in our power to prevent harm from children and young people, and we\u2019re definitely making a step in the right direction with this bill. We must always remember why we\u2019re here, and we\u2019re here to serve and protect the people of New Zealand, especially our children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhile it\u2019s great to see this bill here, it would be great to see other great things provided to our children as well, like a hot, healthy lunch; like a warm, dry home; and making sure that their mums and dads earn enough money to be able to pay for the bills. Those things are also very important for tamariki growing up in New Zealand, just as it is to grow up in a home that\u2019s free from violence. We still have a long way to go in all of those areas, but I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u002273b05369d2db48b5a39f7448cf79f756\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273b05369d2db48b5a39f7448cf79f756\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise in support of the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Government Agency Registration) Amendment Bill in its second reading. The principal Act that this bill amends is the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Government Agency Registration) Act, which was passed in 2016.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EEssentially, if we were to just summarise what the purpose of this bill is, we\u2019re trying to reduce sexual reoffending against children. We\u2019re going to do that by establishing and maintaining a register of child sex offenders in a way that, as I said, reaches that goal of ours to reduce reoffending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EAs I listened to commentary across the House\u2014particularly from our Green MPs, there\u2019s k\u014Drero which they usually bring up: they question the effectiveness and the legitimacy of the child sex offender register. I do find that quite curious, because, to me, whatever avenues and whatever means we can put in place to protect our tamariki, we should be going full force with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EAlso, the Green member previously kind of complained about the fact that there are New Zealand Bill of Rights of Rights Act issues here. The complaint is that the bill, in one aspect, has a retrospective effect. For this, I thought about one of the submissions. That submission was a very short submission by Josephine Edmonds, and she said\u2014which really tugged at my heartstrings\u2014\u201CPlease protect all children who are harmed\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EPersonally, in my view, I don\u2019t really care if a few rights are breached if our children are protected. If people have done something to put our children in harm\u2014I\u2019m sorry, but, personally, I don\u2019t care if a few rights are breached in our pursuit of keeping children protected. With that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225c918280cb0c4915afb687e7d3388340\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c918280cb0c4915afb687e7d3388340\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022525a0eda6d7247189236a0fdadb0e1cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022525a0eda6d7247189236a0fdadb0e1cf\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As has been said, Labour supports this bill for very good reasons. I think it\u2019s really important to start a contribution by acknowledging the incredible harm that could be done to children and the incredible responsibility that we have as lawmakers to make sure that whilst we\u2019re here, we are putting in place anything we can to minimise that harm and to create good legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ELooking at the four key points and the reasons why Labour will be supporting this bill, as has been said, certainly the improved information for risk assessment rates very highly. Expanding the information that offenders must report\u2014like whether they attend education attendances or education forums or help authorities identify situations where children could be at risk and help them, certainly, to respond earlier rather than after the fact\u2014is incredibly important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAlso, as has been noted earlier, the means by which we accommodate an earlier notification of when a child is in co-residence, moving from a post-arrival to a pre-arrival notification system, provides agencies with that requisite time that is required to do a much more robust and a much more proper risk-assessment process and take into account and take the necessary steps to protect children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAs my colleague the Hon Ginny Andersen said, strengthening the overseas travel requirements\u2014we remember, only too well, the member\u2019s bill that was in the name of our colleague Greg O\u2019Connor, who sought something very similar to this, but this has been assumed by this bill. Requiring earlier and more flexible reporting of international travel ensures offenders are monitored appropriately both when entering and leaving a country, because it\u2019s really important that, within one jurisdiction, there is an awareness of someone on the register or someone that should have an alert. The fact that they may travel, for various reasons, and, therefore, place children overseas in harm is something that we should most definitely have a responsibility for. This includes, I think, those new qualifying offences, such as exploitation for commercial sex or creation of intimate visual recordings. And that\u2019s really important because it ensures that the register captures those really serious risk behaviours that previously weren\u2019t explicitly specified, so it\u2019s important that we do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe Justice Committee received 22 submissions and heard oral evidence from five submitters. The effectiveness of the register was questioned. Some called for a review of the register\u2019s overall effectiveness, but the committee did note that, in 2019, there had been an evaluation and it did show that the register was working as intended. But, certainly, further research is under way, with a notable study being done by the University of Waikato, expected to be reported back in 2027. And a PhD researcher is doing a body of work which is expected to be reported back next year. Certainly, preliminary results show that there\u2019s something as robust as a 40 to 70 percent reduction in likelihood of reoffending when they look at the effectiveness and the efficacy of that register, so that is something that absolutely we should be building on through this process of strengthening this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EAs has been mentioned, the retrospective application raises some concerns, as all retrospective elements do. In this case, it just simply wouldn\u2019t make sense not to include those 4,000 people that are already on that register and expect there to be some retrospectivity in terms of monitoring that future behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThere were also some suggestions about changes of wording, particularly in relation to those qualifying offences. But, in this case, the committee suggested, or certainly found, that those particular suggestions were out of scope and emphasised, I think quite correctly, the need to remain as consistent as we possibly can with the original legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo Labour supports the bill as a continuation of the earlier work in our earlier efforts to enhance child-protection laws. The amendments, we find, are targeted. We think it is evidence based, which is incredibly important, and, ultimately, it helps ensure that the register remains exactly what it should be, and that is an effective tool for the management of the risk of reoffending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022 data-id=\u00221c643487a27a4331abea1b0a49dc8d87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c643487a27a4331abea1b0a49dc8d87\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, n\u014Dku te maringanui i ia w\u0101 te t\u016B i roto i t\u0113nei Whare i t\u0113nei w\u0101 kia tautoko ai i t\u0113nei pire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E[It is my pleasure to stand in this House and to support this bill.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EThe bill is the Child Protection (Child Sex Offender Government Agency Registration) Amendment Bill. It\u2019s a good and very thoughtful piece of legislation, and a step forward. Can I acknowledge the detailed and excellent contributions of members across the House to this bill. Can I also acknowledge the broad support that the bill has at this stage. It\u2019s always a pleasure to be part of a thoughtful and largely bipartisan legislative process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003ECan I acknowledge my good friend and the chair of the Petitions Committee, Greg O\u2019Connor, for the advocacy work that he has done in this space. It\u2019s pleasing to see that work incorporated here. Can I also acknowledge the hard work of the Justice Committee, all the members therein, who have listened carefully to\u2014I understand there were 22 submissions, with oral evidence provided by five submitters, and there were a number of very thoughtful contributions made there that have clearly made their way through to shaping the legislation. I very much look forward to the committee of the whole House, where we can consider the legislation in even more detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EWith this point, it is my pleasure to end my short call there and commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb493b93c18f418b8b31cff5796a5a77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb493b93c18f418b8b31cff5796a5a77\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. Look, it\u2019s a pleasure to rise and take what will be, I\u2019m sure, a short call in support of this bill. I want to acknowledge the work of members of the Justice Committee that considered the public submissions to this. Members have talked about the nature of the submissions and the numbers, so I won\u2019t delve too far into that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut when we step back and have a look at what this bill is seeking to do, it is seeking to expand the personal level of information that is provided for those who are on the register, but also the timeliness within which that information would be provided. My colleague Dr Tracey McLellan talked about the extension to qualifying offences, and there are a few there. The interesting point is that with the agility of technology and as times have changed, some of those qualifying offences, as defined, didn\u2019t exist in their current form at the time this legislation was perhaps introduced. So I guess one of the questions moving forward is how the legislation and the register would respond to the changing dynamics that technology and a future focus might bring as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting when one has a look at the select committee report into the various aspects that were covered off. What I think is quite pleasing is that the time frame or the window within which the information would be required to be provided by someone who was on the register is largely tightened. So whether it\u2019s about notification as to when they were travelling overseas, instead of that being a 48-hour window prior to leaving, it\u2019s seven days. Likewise, when they return to New Zealand, instead of it being a 10-day window, it\u2019s 72 hours. So there are these little tweaks that I think will make a huge difference and will mitigate risks that might be posed. And, of course, it\u2019s over to the agencies involved to consider those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe final point I\u2019ll make is it\u2019s interesting when one reads about a sort of retrospective approach to things, because often it\u2019s a concern where legislation is passed and it has a retrospective sort of dimension to it. And the Attorney-General, I understand, in her report, sort of signalled that as a concern. The difficulty, of course, is that with this bill, if a retrospective approach was not to be applied, then, basically, the level of information that would be provided for those who would, effectively, go on to the register after the date of commencement would be required to provide a more detailed level of information and to meet those time frames than those who are already on it. So I think it\u2019s not an easy view for someone to set aside some of those concerns. But I think, on this particular occasion, those balanced considerations are justified to set them aside. So I join with other colleagues around the House in commending this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022566938814c75436db5070b0f4d3033ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022566938814c75436db5070b0f4d3033ab\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. As the last speaker on this bill at its second reading, it is a really good opportunity to reflect on the contributions we\u2019ve heard this afternoon and previously, when the House was deliberating on the legislation as well, prior to being interrupted. It is good to hear good support from a variety of different political parties in this place looking to see that we are rectifying an issue in our society and that we\u2019ve got the support of other parties to make that happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003ECredit to Mark Mitchell, the Minister of Police, for leading the legislation. Credit to colleagues of every political party who sit on the Justice Committee for their deliberation and hard work on this legislation, and to those who submitted to the legislation and gave oral submissions to the select committee as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EUltimately, the principal focus of this legislation is to reduce sexual reoffending and offending against children by establishing and maintaining a public register of child sex offenders. It\u2019s a pretty basic, pretty straightforward, pretty simple thing that I can\u2019t believe we don\u2019t have already established in 2025, and so it\u2019s a good thing to be stepping in that direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EThe good thing about this is the purpose of the bill to improve safety for children and young people in our communities. As the youngest member of the Government, that is close to my heart. It\u2019s important that we make sure that for our next generations coming through, we have done everything we possibly can to give them the best possible opportunity at life by providing them the protection they need and deserve and the safety from those who commit heinous crimes against the most vulnerable in our community. This register will do exactly that. This is part of our wider focus as a Government to restore law and order in this country and ensure that everyone has the opportunity at life and can feel protected no matter their age or stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EUltimately, the bill will improve the effectiveness of the child sex offender register and help registry staff assess and manage the risks presented by child sex offenders living in the community, and that\u2019s a good thing. It will ensure our vulnerable and our young people coming through are protected from those who commit these terrible crimes. Therefore, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b76de0db3f5d4c2b8ec2bd7a8639cc7f\u0022\u003EBuilding (Overseas Building Products, Standards, and Certification Schemes) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002200fa9a8297ae4745b6c5cd4b73ee4821\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022850d9a4141d64bd78ad5f41441f60a3b\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Parts 1 and 2 of principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022206f441b874e420aa0ddf98b140393da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022206f441b874e420aa0ddf98b140393da\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee to consider the Building (Overseas Building Products, Standards, and Certification Schemes) Amendment Bill. We start with the debate on Part 1, which is the debate on clauses 4 to 8, \u201CAmendments to Parts 1 and 2 of principal Act\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022a74380c9d7a54b828c5645d14b9721aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a74380c9d7a54b828c5645d14b9721aa\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Just to acknowledge, members, I\u2019ll keep my opening remarks brief in the committee but I do just want to state for the public record that I was very pleased with the debate at the second reading. Members across the House engaged in good faith in the very serious undertaking that we are making. I am grateful for the support of the parties, not only in their comments but also with their votes\u2014of course, importantly\u2014and I acknowledge that Arena Williams was kind enough to signal a couple of areas in which she will be asking questions. So with no further ado, I will resume my seat and look forward to that discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022d75e6e4532fd42509978d42859589969\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d75e6e4532fd42509978d42859589969\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for the opportunity to take a call on this Part 1 of the Building (Overseas Building Products, Standards, and Certification Schemes) Amendment Bill. Part 1 deals with the regulatory-making powers that will be set out for the chief executive and the Minister. Basically, all of the Opposition MPs\u2019 questions will fit into these parts, because anything that the bill does will be sort of in those two parts. I have six questions to start off with the Minister for Building and Construction on around the intent of granting powers to the chief executive and to the Minister\u2014whoever that Minister may be, as the Minister said in his second reading speech\u2014about how to create the changes that the Government is proposing will be made by this bill and those changes that have sort of been advertised and well-canvassed with the industry. I want to make sure this bill is doing what it says it does on the tin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo my first question of the six is: the Government is aiming to improve competition and lower building costs with this. What advice has the Minister had to show that these changes will actually lead to lower prices for consumers rather than just benefiting the larger importers and merchants? That\u2019s something that the Transport and Infrastructure Committee heard a lot of evidence on from various groups. I think we had 44 submitters who were interested in the bill, but because they are all from disparate parts of the industry, it\u2019s not something that any one submitter could tell us, and it wasn\u2019t something that they were focused on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe next question is: how does the bill ensure that recognising groups of overseas standards will not lead to a lowering of building quality or safety standards in New Zealand? That\u2019s given effect in the next clauses, clauses 7 and 6. And the next question is: what process will be used to determine which overseas standards and certification schemes are robust enough to be accepted? Who will oversee that decision making?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy next question is: the aim of streamlining the use of international standards is something that the committee really grappled with, and I think other members in this House have discussed in their speeches a real enthusiasm to be using international standards which are at the same standard as or much better than New Zealand\u2019s. So how do we streamline those standards by moving them into the new regulatory instrument, and how will that affect designers, builders, and consent authorities in practice? The worry here is unintended delays for people who are already using products which meet those international standards but might need to do it again. Many in this House will have had representations from industry groups or importers about this particular problem, particularly about confusion over the different rules that they could be using. Some of those rules that do let them use that now in the Act seem to overlap a little bit with these changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe next question is: the bill mandates that building consent authorities must accept certain overseas certified products, so what protections are in place to ensure that the products meet or exceed the durability and safety requirements that those building consent authorities have been using?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAnd the last question is: given that 90 percent of building products are already imported for use in New Zealand, how does this bill ensure that local manufacturers remain competitive and are not disadvantaged by easier access to overseas products? I ran out of time to discuss this with the Minister in my second reading speech, but it was something that the committee is also very interested in, about how those local Kiwi businesses that are making great strides to create eco-friendly or alternative options\u2014perhaps they\u2019re safer; perhaps they have a higher safety standard for their fire ratings because of New Zealand\u2019s track record with fire risk, or perhaps they are using waste products to turn them into plasterboard. These sorts of businesses that are doing really interesting things in the New Zealand market because of New Zealand\u2019s other challenges, like with recycling for these products, are businesses that we should be making sure have the conditions to thrive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThese are businesses that have already gone through what was a very, very rigorous set of compliance standards, so how will they be affected now by overseas products that are able to compete with them and not be at the standards that they were held to prior? Especially for those businesses that\u2014you know, they\u2019re absolutely not at a scale where they\u2019re looking to export overseas; they\u2019re looking for the domestic market because that is what their scale allows them to do. Now that they\u2019ve met those very high standards, can they be assured that they will have some level of competitiveness in the New Zealand market, or are we just setting them adrift?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002203da2e99bf9a4ff8b66334b56d298254\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203da2e99bf9a4ff8b66334b56d298254\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E I apologise to other members of the committee, but am grateful for the questions\u2014I counted, I think no fewer than six\u2014from Arena Williams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EGoing through those in turn: first, the benefit in terms of increased competition and adding some price pressure in a positive way for the Kiwi consumer is based on the idea, of course, that in a market economy the greater the degree of competition, the more that the price of the product\u2014or the goods; or goods or services, for that matter\u2014will tend towards the minimum at which it can be produced\u2014including, of course, that with the benefit of innovation, one can get to that point much more readily. So we think that\u2019s a useful mechanism. Countries like New Zealand have believed this for many years, and it was highlighted in the 2022 Commerce Commission report on building materials, on which the idea for this legislation is partly based.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI would just add, in addition to that point around competition and therefore price pressure, that innovation\u2014which the member also, rightly, mentioned\u2014and, of course, resilience are the aims of the bill in terms of opening up the availability of products from different places around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESecond, in terms of the standards, the assurance that we have given and that we will rigorously hold ourselves to as a Government\u2014but relying on expert advice\u2014is that the standards be equal to or higher than those that currently apply in New Zealand to the respective building material types.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThird, in terms of decision making, who oversees? I actually originally wrote the word \u201Coverseas\u201D incorrectly\u2014it\u2019s \u201Coversees\u201D in the sense of oversight as opposed to non - New Zealand jurisdictions. So thank you for confusing me on that point, if not the others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of the oversight, then, that is provided, clearly there\u2019s a process that\u2019s set out in the legislation. And without going through it fully, I will note that, of course, the Minister for Building and Construction, from time to time\u2014like the chief executive of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), who has similar powers in terms of being able to approve products\u2014is guided by the advice of MBIE. In turn, that is informed by expert opinion from outside MBIE\u2014acknowledging there is expert opinion within MBIE as well\u2014industry expertise; and, of course, all the users of these materials are able to contact the Government and be part of that discussion. The broader the discussion is, the more helpful it will be in terms of providing the kinds of materials, products, and therefore outcomes that we will see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFourth, in terms of how there is a streamlining effect: the member asks\u2014and I hope that I\u2019ve understood her question correctly\u2014how we avoid the possibility that there might be unintended consequences whereby people who are already going through a different process might experience delays by seeking an approval under this mechanism. The answer is that this is an additional method by which products could be approved. If a tradesperson or a consumer\u2014the Kiwi battler seeking to have a home built at a reasonable price\u2014is already in the stages of getting approval through their local building consent authority or through the CodeMark regime, maybe on the basis of brands testing taking place and giving some comfort or assurance there, then they\u2019ll be welcome to continue to do that. We\u2019re not taking that pathway away; we\u2019re actually increasing the range of methods by which it will be possible to have building consent or products approved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of protections, in terms of the assurance, again, leaning on expertise rather than it being the Minister himself\u2014or herself in the future, as it may be\u2014making the decision. So the assurances, for example, by reference to the Building Advisory Panel who are available for purposes such as this, providing that expert advice to Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFinally, for now, in terms of the point that the member rightly makes, that 90 percent of products at the moment are already sourced either wholly or in part from overseas, and thinking about the innovation that\u2019s taking place in this country\u2014of course, she\u2019s right to reference the technique whereby waste materials are turned into boards. In fact, there\u2019s an example of that a stone\u2019s throw away in terms of the work that\u2019s going on\u2014it actually will be part of the new parliamentary precinct. Certainly acknowledging that point and those within New Zealand who are doing that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EA couple of points: first of all, of course it\u2019s important to consider suppliers, but from the consumer point of view it\u2019s also worth considering the effect of competition being advantageous to them. But more importantly, from the suppliers\u2019 and manufacturers\u2019 point of view in New Zealand, the fact that they can measure their work against overseas standards, have that accepted in New Zealand, and immediately be export-available and export-ready and export-attractive, I think, would be actually quite helpful for them indeed. But, of course, it will always be easier for Kiwi suppliers and manufacturers because you don\u2019t have the export costs and supply chain implications that those from overseas currently face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022510d679ee0fb41faac3e1e8724e2c75d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022510d679ee0fb41faac3e1e8724e2c75d\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for Building and Construction for that very helpful answer. While he was giving that answer, I was helpfully handed, by the Chamber attendants, the Residential building supplies market study from the Commerce Commission that was published on 6 December 2022. It led to some very useful work by the Government of the day, and then by this Government, on competition in the sector. Given the Minister\u2019s answers around the use of competition as a way to bring down prices of building supplies, I just want to delve into that with one question: does the Minister envision the regulations that are to be written in line with the two powers granted under the primary legislation to the Minister and to the chief executive of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment \u2014will that regulation likely consider the impact of both large suppliers and vertically integrated companies using their market dominance to block competition, as was suggested by this study?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EEven with the easier access to overseas building products, this is still something that may be a feature of the New Zealand market for building supplies, given that, in the existing legislation, there is already a power to have recognised some overseas building products. This does, we think, make it easier. But there has already been that power, and a lot of the, I guess, scepticism from the industry about whether real competition will be brought about by this legislation has to do with whether that will be able to be taken up or whether the market dominance of the existing players in the New Zealand market will mean that new overseas products can\u2019t really establish a market for themselves here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002278c1d4757e6244358dfa491ab5b70336\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278c1d4757e6244358dfa491ab5b70336\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I think there will certainly be more competition, not less, as a result of the legislation. As to whether bad-faith actors might, in the future, hypothetically attempt to act in a way that\u2019s anti-competitive\u2014if they were to do so that would be a matter for the Commerce Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002286c2f2c0232349ff9b7817659b8a442d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286c2f2c0232349ff9b7817659b8a442d\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just have two short questions, because I can see the Hon Kieran McAnulty is also keen to ask the Minister for Building and Construction some questions. First of all, thank you so much, Minister, for your explanations. I always find this Minister\u2019s contributions to be particularly helpful and educational, so thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI would like to just kind of follow on from what my colleague Arena Williams was referring to, particularly when we\u2019re looking at clause 4 of this bill, which amends section 7 of the Building Act 2004. There are two things, one of which I have a question for and the other one\u2019s on the back of something the Minister mentioned before. The first question\u2019s around overseas standards organisations and also, in terms of when we\u2019re looking at the broader context of this bill, when we\u2019re looking at overseas building products, would the Minister be able to elucidate how that interacts with, for example, something like the Green Star ratings, both for commercial and also for residential? You will see that the way that we import some of those materials\u2014or export some of the materials, potentially\u2014will have an interaction, and just in terms of consistency with that overall level of compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second question I have is what the Minister mentioned before around trade and export, which I found particularly within my area of interest, and one of the things that the Minister might be aware of is that recently there has been this discussion around agreement on climate change, trade, and sustainability. It was one of the things that was announced a little while ago and was ratified a little while ago, as well\u2014sorry, it was signed a little while ago. One particular part of that was around the removal of, for example, tariffs over environmental goods. I was just curious to know from the Minister, because the Minister mentioned some of these in terms of compliance in terms of exports, and particularly when we\u2019re looking at things that are, overall, supposed to provide better sustainability and environmental goods, and timber potentially being one of them\u2014do you see any potential interactions with the Agreement on Climate Change, Trade and Sustainability in that regard, knowing that that agreement still has reasonably few countries that are signed up to it, but something like this might potentially open doors to other available markets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo those are my two questions, one on Green Star ratings and the other one on some of the broader ideas around trade of environmental goods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022c28f14f015d74f388e1e4097318ea945\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c28f14f015d74f388e1e4097318ea945\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the member Lawrence Xu-Nan for his always thoughtful questions and\u2014again, if I may reciprocate\u2014educational questions, even in the way that they\u2019re framed and put forward. Between the member himself and his colleague the Hon Julie Anne Genter in her comments at second reading, the focus, collectively, from the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand in relation to sustainable building practices that might be augmented\u2014I think that\u2019s a really helpful conversation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn general terms, I\u2019d observe that improving the range of products as well as, I suppose, the depth of the availability of existing products will be useful from the point of view of encouraging sustainable building practices. The innovation that\u2019s thereby encouraged, I think, will be something we can recognise in coming up with systems that relate to recognising sustainable buildings\u2014encouraging and enabling, if not mandating. More particularly, to answer the first part of the member\u2019s question around the different rating systems\u2014Green Star rating system and others, for example, NABERS, which is an Australia-based system, appropriately enough; everyone needs good neighbours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut to the extent that these can and do already exist in New Zealand, there\u2019s a degree to which those can sort of translate already. Certainly, those systems voluntarily being entered into and complied with\u2014for want of a better phrase\u2014in New Zealand can make use of the known properties of overseas products to the extent that those are also used in Green Star and other sustainable certification systems overseas. So I think it\u2019s helpful in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EJulie Anne Genter mentioned the high-quality and sustainable practices in the German jurisdiction that she\u2019s aware of and, certainly, my layperson understanding is that in Germany and elsewhere in the EU, they are probably ahead of us in many of these respects. So it\u2019s quite exciting to think that we\u2019ll be able to tap into that\u2014not a specific reference to plumbing products\u2014in very short order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of opening the door to international agreements and trading along these lines, I think it can only be helpful. I know that other countries in the world\u2014other countries are of course in the world!\u2014are interested in these matters and they will want to know that New Zealand is also interested in this space. We\u2019ll be able to say more about what that might look like in terms of Government policy beyond the scope of this bill in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022f81f52ed60444c5eb47ce065b80a7874\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f81f52ed60444c5eb47ce065b80a7874\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I thank the Minister for Building and Construction for his answers. I want to build on a question asked by my friend and colleague Arena Williams and the subsequent response from the Minister around competition. Now, the Minister is correct in a sense that, after this passes, the Commerce Commission will be responsible for monitoring this, but now is the time to provide those reassurances. And I don\u2019t think it\u2019s satisfactory to just simply say that this will likely lead to more competition. That in itself, in isolation, is true. But we\u2019ve got to recognise that the Commerce Commission has identified that part of the issue is not just supply but competition. Now, the two are actually different. So, yes, we\u2019re going to see, as a result of this bill, an increase in supply from overseas-made and -assessed products, but a lot of those products will be made by large multinational corporations, who, actually, through their size, can prevent other overseas products coming in. We would like to know what provisions the Minister intends to include through regulation to ensure that that doesn\u2019t happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve got to recognise that the supply chain here is incredibly complex, and it\u2019s not just a case of accessing building material that is made and assessed overseas; it\u2019s also a case of ensuring that local producers and manufacturers get a fair crack as well. Now, most members in this House will be able to point to local manufacturers in the areas that they live. I certainly can think of, where I live in Wairarapa, a number of manufacturers that are producing products that are of a high standard and that will be able to compete with overseas-produced products in terms of quality, but we need to ensure that they get fair access as well. A lot of the things that are happening in this bill is good news for local manufacturers, particularly the work around ensuring that the consenting authorities are open to different products. That\u2019s been part of the problem, and many of the things that the Minister is putting to the House today builds on the work of the previous Government in recognising that, actually, this House supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo these questions are in good faith. We need to ensure that this not only leads to an increase in a variety of products but in a true competitive market. Now, what we mean by that is not just ensuring that the Commerce Commission reports on it, because we know they will and they have, but that doesn\u2019t necessarily lead to the solutions that we need. My fear is that what will happen in practice is this bill comes in and the new regime is under way\u2014a review of that doesn\u2019t happen immediately. We need to wait and see how it\u2019s working and assess that and then reflect on that and then look at what changes could be made to improve it. If we don\u2019t get it right now and the committee isn\u2019t given the assurances it desires now, my worry is that local producers might be undercut and might go under in the meantime. So it is important, I think, Minister, that the House gets a clear understanding of your intentions from this bill to ensure that the market is truly competitive and that that doesn\u2019t undercut and undermine local producers who, up until now, haven\u2019t had a fair crack. The idea of this is to give them one, but we need to make sure that\u2019ll actually happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3c3745c28de4603b581f8ee6cdbfd4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3c3745c28de4603b581f8ee6cdbfd4e\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have a question relating to clause 6(1) of the bill, and also clause 8, which inserts new section 25B in the principal Act. It\u2019s not a new issue, but I\u2019m asking the Minister for Building and Construction how this bill deals with it differently, and it is around overseas building standards not being comparable to New Zealand\u2019s because they verify it to a different level. Ours is based on the Building Code, which sets out minimum standards, whereas there are other overseas certification schemes that may have different thresholds for compliance and different levels of compliance. So the question is: how will the regulations ensure that imported products are tested in the system that they are authorised under in order to meet not only the basic compliance standards but also long-term performance standards for durability and other standards like insulation and energy efficiency that we are trying to test for? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy other question is: given that New Zealand\u2019s Building Code sets minimum standards and it is that kind of regime, but some of those lag behind most international codes, particularly for things like warm, dry, energy-efficient products and their best use, what safeguards will we have in place to ensure that the overseas building products that we are bringing in\u2014will we have a different way of treating products from regimes where those standards have sort of a minimum compliance and then another level of compliance, or will we test each level of compliance to see whether it complies with the New Zealand standard, rather than just sort of figuring that it meets our current minimum standards, and so we don\u2019t need to go further than that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00221b03cb50429a4c5ba3716578c9b0577d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b03cb50429a4c5ba3716578c9b0577d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the members for their questions and comments. Starting with the points made by the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2014he\u2019s right, of course, to highlight the centrality of the Commerce Commission\u2019s role in all of this. I\u2019ll just take us back to the year 2022 and the Residential building supplies market study and its recommendations, which included exploring ways to remove impediments to product substitution and variation. I do just want to note that as part of this broader piece of work, the easing of the rules around minor variations and customisations\u2014actually, by allowing greater clarity in that space\u2014I think, is part of the way that we can assist to introduce the products of New Zealand building suppliers and smaller overseas building suppliers into New Zealand buildings. Notwithstanding that a designer might have initially specified a particular product that\u2019s well known to them or perhaps is produced by a large player with a big marketing and sponsorship budget, a builder or another tradesperson, or the designer himself or herself, could actually have that product substituted along the way more readily as a result of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Commerce Commission, it\u2019s true that a review in due course might have observations about how well the new regime is working, but it\u2019s also the case that as part of the regulatory function of the Commerce Commission, they are able to undertake, at any time, reviews or answer questions of whether market dominance is leading to unfair results that are anti-competitive in their nature, along with individual practices that might be alleged to have occurred. So, I think, contemplating a review that might take place sometime in the future doesn\u2019t actually represent the gap that Mr McAnulty is suggesting, if I\u2019ve understood him correctly, given that the Commerce Commission has those other functions and powers in the meantime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESecond, in terms of assurances that I\u2019m able to give about market dominance, including for the possibility of large overseas providers\u2014well, I can\u2019t give any such assurance. I don\u2019t have a crystal ball, but I know that by increasing competition overall, it\u2019s nearly inevitable that the Kiwi consumer will be better off in each individual case. And to mitigate away the possibility, theoretical as it may be, that there\u2019ll be unintended consequences in any individual case, we can think about the fact that there are natural barriers in the case of overseas products, which is transporting the physical goods here\u2014we\u2019re very remote\u2014so, naturally, there is a cost, and there is uncertainty associated with supply chains, always. In terms of barriers being established to the acceptance of products\u2014be they overseas or local ones\u2014to the extent that these are more difficult for smaller players to achieve, they represent a barrier that in itself represents the antithesis of a competitive market. So I think it\u2019s reasonable, or more than reasonable, to assume and to expect that there will be an effective increase in competition, and a thumb on the scale will remain in favour of New Zealand suppliers and manufacturers for that reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThird, in terms of liability\u2014and I think the member might have been referencing the point around building consent authorities having to take note of overseas-approved products or New Zealand products approved against overseas standards\u2014of course, to the extent that local councils, being building consent authorities, are required to deem, as approved, these products under this regime, they will not be liable for any adverse consequences of doing so. In terms of the use of the product, to the extent that that\u2019s checked by inspections, yes, liability will remain on the current footprint of the scheme, but that\u2019s as you would expect. And just to be clear, we\u2019ve outlined\u2014I think, quite carefully\u2014in the legislation that liability won\u2019t attach to councils where they are simply giving effect to the policy choices made by central government through this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of Arena Williams\u2019 latter contribution asking how we are to measure that minimum standards have been met\u2014well, under the Building Act and The Building Code currently, we\u2019ve got quite a flexible approach to the way that it can be demonstrated that standards have been met. There can either be quite a prescriptive following of certain ways of operating and systems; but also some flexibility can be demonstrated\u2014the flexibility is a trade-off, of course, with the certainty of the other method. But, certainly, between those, at the moment, we\u2019ve got a couple of different ways that you can demonstrate that a product complies. We\u2019re not seeking to change that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f350959fbe214c039e4a41107aef4624\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f350959fbe214c039e4a41107aef4624\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Chair. Thank you. I thank the Minister for Building and Construction for his responses. I was a member of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, which listened to a number of industry participants and others who were really keen to ensure that that level of competition and price point is driven down. One of the points that was a real point of conversation, I guess, was also the role that councils\u2014so I\u2019m pleased to hear that the Minister has confirmed the inability for liability to be attached to councils, provided that councils actually are making decisions in line with the legislation, although that would sit at that quality assurance level prior to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI have some questions for the Minister, and this really lends itself to the lower cost of building. I mean, that\u2019s really a key driver behind the legislation, as the Minister has indicated. My question is around that monitoring aspect that the Government intends to take to ensure that that is actually happening. I appreciate that the Minister says he doesn\u2019t have a crystal ball in terms of gazing into the future, but if we\u2019re in a situation where the changes that are proposed are not leading to that price point dropping, as everyone anticipates, what provision in the legislation\u2014if the Minister can point to a particular aspect in the legislation\u2014identifies a mechanism or a lever for the Government to step in and do something in that space? Or maybe it\u2019s not, but I\u2019m just interested in\u2014this is the genesis of it, but, in practice, if it\u2019s not actually flowing through to consumers, then what is the approach within that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other part of that question to the Minister is: when we set aside the building products\u2014in the context of the cost of building products, and this is an issue that many home builders and others in the consumer space are facing all the time\u2014a large chunk of the actual cost when it comes to building construction lies within labour, lies within GST, and lies within the professional services that make up the bulk of those remaining costs. Has the Minister considered how the product innovation or process innovation to capture those particular aspects can lead to more competition in the driving-down of that price point? I\u2019d be interested to get the Minister\u2019s responses in those areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad8782180cb6467bb5824b00c5d940d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad8782180cb6467bb5824b00c5d940d7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thanks to Mr Tangi Utikere for the thoughtful questions. On the second point, process innovations are part of the building reform work that we\u2019re doing more generally, but not within this bill, except to the extent that standards and certification systems and so on might lend themselves to improved processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo beyond the bill, I suppose it\u2019s a matter of watch this space, but I think it\u2019s fair to say in light of that point being raised by the member and also that conversation more generally about the liability of building consent authorities that the liability question as at now\u2014joint and several for each of those councils\u2014is something we\u2019re looking to address more broadly, so I look forward to continuing to converse with him outside the scope of this bill on those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe second point that I\u2019m raising\u2014but his first point\u2014is in relation to lowered costs more generally. He\u2019s right to observe that increasing the affordability of building, including residential homes but not only those, is a major focus for us. I know other members of the House are interested in that kaupapa too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI would point out, however, in answer to his question, there isn\u2019t a specific provision in this bill that would trigger some sort of particular Government reaction in the event that building costs don\u2019t come down. I suppose I would be remiss not to point out that the aim is to apply downward pressure on prices. One doesn\u2019t say that they\u2019ll necessarily go down, because if they go up for other reasons\u2014but nevertheless, as a result of this legislation, they\u2019re lower than they otherwise might be. Obviously, I can\u2019t\u2014again, I don\u2019t have a crystal ball, but we\u2019re doing what we can and I think it\u2019s a useful step in the right direction in this regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d33a032c9fd84884bd7a3c129f0f100f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d33a032c9fd84884bd7a3c129f0f100f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I just note, members, at the moment, that we\u2019ll be looking for some reasonably specific questions now. The Minister, unlike many of his colleagues, has been fulsome and actually quite direct in his replies; therefore, he is covering a lot of this ground. So I just invite members to now point to some specific part of the bill to accompany their question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022489eab2840244738a362aef11bb744d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022489eab2840244738a362aef11bb744d4\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E All right, Mr Chair. Then my question to the Minister for Building and Construction is: what impact will the regulations made under clauses 5 and 6 in Part 1 have on offsite manufacturers who both purchase key building materials and supply prefabricated components or modular builds? I ask the question because Fletcher Building\u2019s Clever Core prefab house-building factory in my electorate of Manurewa, in Wiri, will shut today, and it will be replaced next year by a PlaceMakers frame and truss plant. The reason I ask that is because one of the reasons they cited for that closure was \u201Cunfavourable Government policy\u201D. The building products regulations are something that could help the sector in New Zealand that creates and supplies modular builds and prefabricated components. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy second question in that is whether off-site manufacturing has the potential to improve competition and efficiency in the building sector, as this bill aims to do, and whether this bill will give the regulation-making power required to be able to enable some of that competition being driven at that part of the supply chain?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00222094ec5516574fe4bd5b0ca6cd542259\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222094ec5516574fe4bd5b0ca6cd542259\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The member makes a good point. Offsite manufacturing, or OSM, represents a huge opportunity for greater productivity, including by way of economy of scale and other associated benefits in terms of the way that buildings are constructed in this country, and I\u2019m thinking of worker health and safety, and so on, as well as the productivity gains in their own right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s fair to say that this kind of regime will enable that purchase at scale of products, which, again, through the competition that the bill will enable to increase will have a positive effect for the likes of the soon-to-be-closed Clever Core factory. I regret its closure. I note that they\u2019ve found it difficult\u2014according to public reporting\u2014to operate over the last few years. Clearly, the construction sector in general has taken a major hit over the last three or so years, but we wish its successors on that particular site\u2014which I too have visited\u2014all the best, along with everyone else looking to come out the other side of a difficult time for the construction sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca4c6f2bc5c24a2b8ba5eeccdb47318c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca4c6f2bc5c24a2b8ba5eeccdb47318c\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate being able to take my first call on this, and the Minister for Building and Construction\u2019s excellent answers. I\u2019m really interested in clause 8, inserting new section 25B(2), thinking about the list of building product specifications, and I\u2019m really mindful of the decarbonisation efforts that we have as a country and the reform of our science sector from Crown Research Institutes to Public Research Organisations\u2014wondering where the bioeconomy fits into this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EIf we\u2019re thinking about products like hempcrete, for example, or wool insulation, to support our rural communities, to support the restoration of manufacturing in the country, to think about what we can do with timber that we haven\u2019t yet done\u2014things that Scion is an excellent advocate for and has been working on\u2014and how we might retool some of the manufacturing plants that have closed down to start building and manufacturing, how do those things fit, and how do proponents of really local systems that have had challenges in our construction sector, such as earth building, light earth, straw bale\u2014how do they fit? If we\u2019re thinking about the decarbonisation efforts, they are also a really important part of the construction sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe recognise\u2014and we are in support of this bill\u2014that it has been dominated by very few players, and my concern is, I guess, that we don\u2019t want to simply add on cheaper products from other jurisdictions when we also have a wealth of innovation here in Aotearoa. How are we going to ensure that we bring that to the fore and that we support those? And what are the ways in which\u2014if I can grab my colleague\u2019s document\u2014under section 25B, if we\u2019re thinking about the physical properties, the installation, the fabrication\u2014(b), (e), and (g)\u2014are these elements that are going to be considered by the Minister, when we\u2019re thinking about how we make sure we have a construction sector that has access to materials and a cheaper, more localised way of doing things, to speed up innovation in the sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI do have a slight follow-up\u2014I think I\u2019ve got a little bit of time, if I can\u2014and I\u2019d like to reflect on the honourable member Tangi Utikere\u2019s presentation on product innovation and process innovation. If we think about local producers like Formance, for example, who use structural insulated panels, which is, sort of, a clip and a screw-and-glue approach to do fast builds, what are we doing particularly with process? I know that the Minister has addressed this, but we already have products here that can\u2014we can build so much quicker, and we\u2019ve got an example of that when Railways used to build all those fantastic railway homes. Are we thinking about that type of patterned build, using known products that we already have but that struggle through the Building Code? So this is a code question as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00223e7aa7dab610434b8a8f991387a7e79a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e7aa7dab610434b8a8f991387a7e79a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, and I thank the member for his very thoughtful questions. I love that he\u2019s emphasised the wealth of innovation that we have already here in Aotearoa, to use his phrase. Of course he\u2019s right, and of course he\u2019s right, too, that there are many products\u2014I use that term in the broad sense of the phrase\u2014that could be used much more extensively than they already are. Although, again, he rightly references wool, which is known to have very helpful products in terms of health and sustainability and other desirable features. So it seems strange if I put a product like wool in the same sense as innovation, because of course, in a way it\u2019s back to the future. Looking at the terms of new section 25B, inserted by clause 8, and the word \u201Cmanufacture\u201D\u2014I mean, he\u2019ll know the etymology; it\u2019s sort of literally making by hand, and yet obviously in the modern parlance, that implies great factories with industry 4.0, churning out physical products that are anything but natural.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EHowever, of course this points to the right one, but I do emphasise that the legislation is agnostic as to type of material. I mean, it\u2019s my personal belief that we can and should make much better use of such products. It seems to me there\u2019s nothing here that would preclude that. I mean, I take the point that he is, I think, arguing for something that would be more positively moving in that direction. We\u2019re not moving away from it, put it like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI would just, perhaps, put out a more general challenge to the building sector in this country and say to some extent these are legal or legislative questions, but to some extent they\u2019re cultural too. I think we have a very conservative building sector and there are good reasons to be conservative where there are questions of quality and, obviously, we don\u2019t want people to be at risk of having homes or other buildings that are substandard because we\u2019ve been experimental. But at the same time, I think there\u2019s scope for being more innovative, and it\u2019s my hope that this will allow that, from overseas but also in terms of Kiwi manufacturers who can measure against standards that are known and accepted. For example, in the likes of Germany, as referenced by the Hon Julie Anne Genter, and through that we will be better off in the way that the member\u2019s described.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed59d46cf6a24b478c233be1e1c81f39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed59d46cf6a24b478c233be1e1c81f39\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m going to talk to my proposed amendment to clause 8 of the bill, which adds a proposed section 25B(5) to new section 25B, which is proposed by clause 8 of the bill. Now, I know, looking around the Chamber here, that it just drives everyone in this committee crazy about the rise of the administrative State. Whether it\u2019s a consequence of word processors and computers or the internet, I don\u2019t know what it is. It\u2019s a combination of these factors. But the mad level of detail that is required, across just about any area that has been regulated in this country, drives us all spare. I see the Hon Andrew Bayly there, and I\u2019ve spoken to him about the biblical length of prospectuses that is now required for new capital raisings, which is so long that people never read the damn things. And the big risks are missed in the mass of detail that is there for people to wade through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI know that the Hon Andrew Hoggard has experienced similar frustrations with farm plans, with the inability for us to do a practical farm plan without requiring repetition for what\u2019s already been done by industry organisation plans tweaked a little bit. I\u2019m completely on side with both the Hon Andrew Hoggard, with his efforts in that regard to make these things practical and cost-effective, and Andrew Bayly\u2019s efforts in respect of the prospectus space. But it\u2019s even worse in the building control space, and I suspect just about everyone in this House has experienced it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EJust this last week I had an architect of over 50 years\u2019 experience\u2014Malcolm Walker\u2014come to see me saying he\u2019s putting together a group of architects to go to complain to the Auckland Council about what they\u2019re doing because, now, you can have a product that is an acceptable building solution for which there is a specification, and, now, the council will require you to lodge the specification, not just list the product. So the specification already exists. We\u2019ve already got a licensing regime for architects and for licensed building practitioners, and they\u2019ve got the obligation to build these things in accordance with the specification. But these people in Auckland Council are saying, \u201CWhen you file the application, you\u2019ve got to refile the specification.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe papers that are now being filed for what used to be a very simple application\u2014it probably would have said, \u201CI\u2019m going to build this house in accordance with building standard NZS 4605.\u201D\u2014I think it was; I might have the wrong number; was it NZS 3604?\u2014\u201CHere\u2019s a bit of a design as to what the outline was and the distance from the boundaries, and the building is going to be built by a licensed builder.\u201D They could just go and build the house. Now, they spend $100,000 before they start building the house, in part because of the ridiculous level of detail that is required by building consent authorities when they are issuing the consent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve experienced this myself. I\u2019ve got friends who are architects, who I know are amongst the best architects in New Zealand. Even if they\u2019re building a single-storey house, they\u2019ve been put through this ridiculous level of detail, which brings me to my amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d5235610dca4f9faaf5a07c781760dd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Chair is very relieved, Mr Parker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea3be0c95d354f0d9ae49de8984029bf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Minister, I think this amendment that I have could not only save the hair of most architects\u2014male and female\u2014that\u2019s falling out around the country as a consequence of their frustrations with building departments and of their mayors and councillors, who hate it too. In addition to that, this amendment will save tens of millions of dollars of wasted expense every year, and that can then be spent on either a lower-cost house or a better house. But this amendment is very simple, and it says, \u201CClause 25B\u201D\u2014and I might not be able to quite finish this in the 44 seconds that I\u2019ve got\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294086b8fe0a947aa8f6e699cd0c2c268\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll probably give you more time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022819d19d3267a408bb4e72ab3b1c2ebce\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 25B of the bill, in respect of these new products, says that \u201C(1) The chief executive may, by notice, issue building product specifications that may be referred to in an acceptable solution or a verification method. (2) Building product specifications\u201D, at proposed subsection (2) of that same section, \u201Cmay include specifications for building products in relation to any of the following: (a) manufacture: (b) fabrication: (c) testing: (d) quality control: (e) physical properties: (f) performance: (g) installation: (h) maintenance.\u201D And what my amendment says is \u201CWhere a building product specification is issued under this section, the building consent authority is not permitted to require the refiling of that specification or method of use when an application for a building consent is applied for.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI would say to the Minister for Building and Construction that that simple sentence will save tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars every year, which is currently being passed on to consumers, and it will mean that building consent authorities can turn consents around faster than they currently do. And, accordingly, I ask that the Minister give his support to this amendment so that we can leave this House, thinking that we have made a little push there for the licensed building practitioner, for the architects, for the homeowner, for the builder that wants to do this work, for the subcontractors, and for us politicians, who are constantly getting it in the neck\u2014as are councillors and mayors\u2014for the fact that building consent authorities are asking for the refiling of what is within the ambit of an existing product specification and what the licensed building practitioner and the architect are already responsible to deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00222acaf94fd5264e9d923437e51eaee1a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222acaf94fd5264e9d923437e51eaee1a0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you, Mr Chair. I simply have to respond to that and it\u2019s a bit unusual, but I agree with every word that the member, the Hon David Parker, said. How glorious. I will note that the member, before coming to this place, was a lawyer. Sounds like he could have been an architect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291ace8483a144899a10b063c6e3cc64e\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: And a builder!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bc9252d77aa4cf8a6944b40b4dcfbc0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and a builder, he claims. Having read his handwritten amendment, I also wonder if he could have been a doctor. But I think I understand it well enough, including from his very impassioned speech. I suspect he\u2019s trying to provoke me to be more lengthy and loquacious than I probably should be in the committee of the whole House stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut he said it all. The only flaw in the plan, so far as I can see, is that the bill actually already deals with the problem that he\u2019s identified. To be specific, at clause 7 introducing new subsection (2A) within section 25 of the Act\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226babe83a7714f9aa159c5df94b1178a\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t stop the council doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e445ba9b06784623816de4039f45e815\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, to the question of whether it stops the council doing it\u2014I\u2019ll come back to that if I may\u2014but it should stop the council from doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFirst of all, \u201CAn acceptable solution or a verification method may refer to building product specifications.\u201D That being so, there is no reason that a council, as a building consent authority, should be able to inquire behind the approval of a product under this regime. Now, they can inquire as to whether a product is being used correctly, whether it\u2019s being installed correctly after the fact, but they shouldn\u2019t be able to do that. And by the way, they shouldn\u2019t be able to do that already, which is why your friend who\u2019s the architect is so outraged. I share his outrage; I share your outrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut this is part of the problem that we\u2019re having to deal with. If I were to be generous and fair to all concerned, I\u2019d say that building consent authorities feel that they need to be risk-averse because they\u2019ve got the threat of joint and several liability hanging over them, and for that reason they want to tick every box and then a few extra besides. But they don\u2019t need to, currently. And certainly in terms of the current Building Code or the requirement to comply with the Building Code under the Building Act at the moment, section 19\u2014that one that I referenced and my friend has very helpfully put in front of me\u2014in terms of the current law, and I quote, \u201CA building consent authority must accept any or all of the following as establishing compliance\u201D, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI finish as I started: as a lawyer by background, he\u2019ll appreciate the significance of the word \u201Cmust\u201D to the extent that building consent authorities need to stay in their lane or get in their box, as some would say. I wouldn\u2019t necessarily use that language myself but your architect friend might\u2014that\u2019s already a problem that should not arise. We\u2019re dealing with it as clearly as we can in this legislation and dealing with building consent authorities. The problems that they face in terms of liability is another story for another day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f93fd916f99940d49ce92525b1e9f06a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f93fd916f99940d49ce92525b1e9f06a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the problem with that answer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295030568c01f4cd48ac66f2faa41346a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I will invite succinctness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ace8f69c029d480794aa609e33a6fed6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s very relevant. I\u2019ll do this within five minutes. What\u2019s this two-minute thing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022464dd8c12ae7441c8000b118930c1ccf\u0022\u003EHon Chris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: Wishful thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250a9154104eb487a9efeba233b544c5f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Not wishful thinking on the part of the Chair, I can assure you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b881e6445b27407ba53efa13fc0fce8a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The problem with that answer is that that\u2019s not what happens in practice. Now, what happens in practice is that if you\u2019re a licensed building practitioner who can file an application for a consent, or an architect\u2014who is automatically a licensed building practitioner\u2014you file your application and they say, \u201CGive us all this information.\u201D Well, what are you to do if you\u2019re the architect or the building person? Are you to take judicial review and say, \u201CI\u2019m sorry, you\u2019re exceeding your powers. You can\u2019t require this.\u201D Because that\u2019s, effectively, the only option they\u2019ve got. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ve got to go along with what the council requires, otherwise they get another bill from the council for another hour\u2019s work at $300 an hour. They suffer another month\u2019s delay because they go to the back of the queue in terms of the clock running on the building consent application. Every time, city hall wins. In order to change this, you don\u2019t need to just add more building product specifications in\u2014which is part of it for alternative products coming from overseas\u2014you\u2019ve got to drag out the successive regulatory overreach by councils. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, I hear the Minister for Building and Construction when he says there is a problem with risk allocation in the building system; I absolutely agree with him. My own view is you\u2019re never going to get over that until you remove liability from councils\u2014all care, no responsibility with compulsory insurance against major defects with a large excess, not insurance against too many scratches in the woodwork, but a failed building envelope, or a failed foundation\u2014the big things you should insure against. Then let the insurance industry effectively regulate their premiums against johnny-come-lately with a $100 company building with a monolithic cladding and untreated timber, compared with Fletcher\u2019s building another brick and tile single-storey house with a tanalised frame. The premium will take care of the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut that is no excuse for not dealing with this problem when we can now. The status quo isn\u2019t working. I would say to the Minister that this amendment doesn\u2019t change this aspect of the law that isn\u2019t working. My amendment does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0ec4b9ff0a74010b340c342fa0289c4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll treat that as an interlude, shall we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002226b8d962bb094c63bcb4eacae859c1d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226b8d962bb094c63bcb4eacae859c1d3\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have two very specific questions for the Minister for Building and Construction, but I have to say that I thoroughly enjoyed that. It\u2019s nice to see the Hon David Parker being so passionate and lively about something that the Minister is also in agreement with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI have a question around, first of all, clause 6, which amends section 19. I understand that under the new section 25B, in clause 8, and particularly we\u2019re looking at (3), at the chief executive being able to amend or revoke some of those building product specifications. But when we\u2019re looking at clause 6 with section 19 amended, when it comes to overseas product certification schemes, there isn\u2019t such a mechanism for there to be revoked or to be amended\u2014understanding that we are basing on what the overseas scheme is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, what I don\u2019t know and am seeking the Minister\u2019s clarification on, is how would the chief executive then review these overseas schemes and how frequently will they be able to review something like this? Because looking in the principal Act of section 19, it also actually doesn\u2019t specify any review mechanism when it comes to that level of consistence and compliance. So that\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy second question is with regard to clause 8, so the new section 25B. I want to focus on\u2014the Minister mentioned before the use of the word \u201Cmust\u201D and how \u201Cmust\u201D is used in legislation, and that segues very well into my question around, in (2)\u2014the use of the word \u201Cmay\u201D. I understand once a decision is made the reporting and public notification and availability mechanism under new section 25C, but I wanted to check with the Minister that he doesn\u2019t clarify in new section 25B when the chief executive determines this. What consultation process will it go to under the specifications of (2)(a) to (h)? This could be from a perspective of complete ignorance, not understanding how building product specification normally works, and I always defer these kinds of expertise to my colleague Cameron Luxton, who is an actual builder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut I want to know, leading on in terms of some of the consultation, what sort of confidence they have to the industry, but also to people who are interested in this and the level of transparency of it that things aren\u2019t going to be changed or that they have confidence in knowing that these will always be consulted. Because \u201Cmay\u201D means that some will be consulted, some may not. It might be very much up to the material itself, but just wanting a little bit of clarification around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022387fb1cf25844bce8f96e62a2ddb80ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022387fb1cf25844bce8f96e62a2ddb80ac\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you for the opportunity to respond. To the second point, a fair question is raised around the difference between \u201Cmay\u201D and \u201Cmust\u201D, such that \u201CAn acceptable solution or a verification method may refer to building product specifications.\u201D That is to say, we\u2019re not precluding other acceptable solutions or verification methods. But in terms of the point that I was making in response to the Hon David Parker, certainly a building consent authority doesn\u2019t have the discretion not to allow the use of a product if it\u2019s been approved under this regime. I hope that\u2019s clearer, but if not, I\u2019m happy to re-engage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of the way that the process of advice and then decision making is set out\u2014actually, already provided for\u2014the chief executive, meaning the chief executive of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), may amend or revoke the building product specifications at any time, and I see there needs to be reasonable opportunities for consultation and comment on those. So in general terms, technical expertise, consultation requirements\u2014and, of course, this is part of a broader picture of engagement that MBIE is constantly undertaking with the sector and, for what it\u2019s worth, I have also been engaging on these past 15 or 16 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of the first point that he made around the ongoing review, if I\u2019ve understood his question correctly it was about the time frames at which this might occur; there is no set time frame. It could be as often or as infrequent a period of time as needed to ensure that we\u2019ve got a suitable regime, both in terms of the introduction of standards and systems but also the removal from time to time, if that should be warranted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u002267d9f09560c44948812769624bceba01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267d9f09560c44948812769624bceba01\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022539174ee6af44f8e859bec19449a07b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022539174ee6af44f8e859bec19449a07b7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: These new points will have to be new and specific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u002258500c0ec8a64d8dbc105d9448a36ae7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258500c0ec8a64d8dbc105d9448a36ae7\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I really appreciate that, and I was heartened to hear from the Minister for Building and Construction earlier about the concern for the building sector and the culture of the building sector, which relates to new section 25C, in clause 8, which is the public notification and availability of information. If we think about the way in which the building sector is going to adopt the new materials, I would like to hear more from the Minister about\u2014as the Minister referred to\u2014the building sector itself and the culture of the building sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI wonder whether the Minister has engaged with BRANZ\u2014the Building Research Association of New Zealand\u2014on this, in particular, because one thing that is particular to the building sector is that once you have finished your apprenticeship, there is no requirement for any new training. I was made particularly aware of this when I was doing the rebuild\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288b07937b4e44124886d3cf719beb848\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: There is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f99a7755bde4d999ee958fb0b1a9f46\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s no requirement. There\u2019s the possibility, but there is no requirement, and I was made particularly aware of this when I was fixing up our old villa. I had to reline and had to fix and replace the wooden weatherboards. I was determined to put Mammoth insulation in, rather than fibreglass insulation, which, of course, we know degrades over time because it\u2019s lofted with an acrylic glue, and that top 20 or 30 centimetres can drop in walls. So I really wanted an insulation that was going to endure over time, and the interesting thing was that the builder I had contracted had never come across it before. The only experience of it he had had was through working on my property, and he has subsequently adopted that material. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EBut if we don\u2019t have a way to change the culture of the building sector to bring in innovation in the sector, it\u2019s not going to help that we have all kinds of new materials on offer, unless we have ways in which they can be brought in, understood, and appreciated, and we have a requirement to adopt innovation or to reskill. This is something that we\u2019ve seen in overseas jurisdictions. We\u2019ve seen with the retrofit of buildings, particularly in Germany and throughout Europe after the Ukraine crisis. We\u2019ve seen how the building sector really stepped up to build, essentially, passive homes\u2014rapid, rapid innovation. Here, we\u2019ve got something that we really do need, and I\u2019d be very keen to hear from the Minister about his thoughts about ensuring that the building sector is equipped to adopt the new materials and to innovate, and to make it a requirement for them to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002201a1ac8206b24eb7b0e0e3fd69c2f1ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201a1ac8206b24eb7b0e0e3fd69c2f1ac\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s on the edge of scope, but the Minister may like to answer that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022064fc8b4a8ef43ee979aaf88620eef50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022064fc8b4a8ef43ee979aaf88620eef50\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s generous of you to allow me the chance. I would point out that occupational licensing and regulation is a very worthy subject of discussion for reform of the building system more generally, but there\u2019s nothing particularly within this bill that contemplates it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIf I can just add before I resume my seat, even though I know I indicated I was about to, the point the member makes, along with the dissertation of the Hon David Parker, I think are very useful discussions that are much broader than the scope of this bill. I do note that after his first contribution, the Hon David Parker said he needed more time. I think after his second he needed a defibrillation\u2014I wish him well on his recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022237289510c1f4292acf22a940e5d89ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022237289510c1f4292acf22a940e5d89ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: All right, Arena Williams, but I will indicate that this will be the last question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002211fee32ffa67415cb39023c92c83ecde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211fee32ffa67415cb39023c92c83ecde\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Well, Mr Chair, I must use my last contribution, then, to encourage the Minister for Building and Construction to adopt the amendment of my colleague the Hon David Parker. It is a sensible amendment that would bring a measure of control to a system that is designed to speed up these processes for the people within the system, and also would be an amendment that would ultimately lead to lower costs at the council level, too. We think it\u2019s something that would be helpful for all participants in the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut my question to the Minister is: is the net effect of clause 6(2) that large players that exist in the market already become the large importers of products, and has he had advice on that? PlaceMakers and Carters are vertically integrated companies that involve manufacturing, residential development, and construction. So what will the Government do to ensure that independent suppliers and merchants have the opportunity to import and compete with them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis was a question that was raised by the Hon Kieran McAnulty, and we haven\u2019t had an answer for it in this section. I want to give the Minister a chance to think about not only those players, but the five major merchants: PlaceMakers, Carters, ITM, Bunnings, and Mitre 10 that dominate the distribution of those then imported products and supplies, and whether the Government will progress work to address competition concerns related to their market power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00225d019ecd2256497d9223ab330c647b4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d019ecd2256497d9223ab330c647b4c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I said to the Hon Kieran McAnulty that I couldn\u2019t provide the assurance that he was after. The performance of those five major current players in terms of the retail outlets and any others in the system is not something I can personally guarantee or speak to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI will say, however, that a more competitive system is one in which there is a broader and deeper range of products available. Of course, in terms of vertical integration and other ways in which the economies of scale and corporate design might make a company tend towards market dominance, it\u2019s worth reflecting on the fact that economies of scale also do tend to produce products that are at least theoretically able to be offered at a lower price. So it\u2019s a balance and we think the principled but also pragmatic approach is the one set out in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u0022c767ef304c1f4341896046e2dd0d8fdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c767ef304c1f4341896046e2dd0d8fdf\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just wanted to stand up and ask the Minister for Building and Construction to elaborate on the answer that he just gave prior to the member Scott Willis about the way the industry is trained and skilled up. The Minister did mention licensing and schemes, but I wonder, in regards to new section 25B, inserted by clause 8, do you think that as licensed building practitioners (LBPs) go about their training and reskilling, a points system which is currently in place, that LBPs, depending on what class they are, need either 12 or 18 points\u2014do you think that schooling up on some of these new products and methods that are going to be coming into the country could be used as a way to add to those skill points for that two-yearly renewal of licensed building practitioners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00227eeab2e271aa4862a3136017288aa82b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227eeab2e271aa4862a3136017288aa82b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you for the opportunity to respond to that point. I was remiss, perhaps, in previously not mentioning that to maintain the status of a licensed building practitioner, or LBP, that person must complete skills maintenance relative to their licence class every two years. I will say, however, that the member himself, Cameron Luxton, being a licensed building practitioner\u2014I think the only one in the committee\u2014will have an in-depth knowledge that I\u2019d be grateful if he would continue to share with me, and I thank him for his contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6ef82cee78c489f80e25c541e92a4b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6ef82cee78c489f80e25c541e92a4b7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon David Parker\u2019s amendment to insert subsection (5) in new section 25B in clause 8 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002293b6685e2d94499ba30d7c8941b1b4f0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000422\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223d41873efb3449189abef2e6c02cc6ab\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to other provisions of principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ede1fdc316b940dc9b38763a64bd4b9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ede1fdc316b940dc9b38763a64bd4b9c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We come now to the debate on Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 9 to 17, \u201CAmendments to other provisions of principal Act\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022219fce4c32cd4de3ad38601bdb036dd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022219fce4c32cd4de3ad38601bdb036dd8\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I want to ask the Minister about the way that clauses 9 and 10 will operate. This isn\u2019t a long issue that we need to traverse really thoroughly, but it is something the select committee looked into and wasn\u2019t necessarily finished with as a topic of discussion and also with submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe issue is around the advice from the building advisory panel that\u2019s created under section 171(1) of the principal Act. And the question from the select committee was: is it appropriate for there not to be a provision that protects the Minister if he does not seek industry feedback on one of his decisions? Because this is a bill that\u2019s designed for a sort of back and forth with the industry. This is something that has been used by successive Governments, particularly in this area of building products and the building system, to make sure the industry is very closely tied in with Government decision-making. But at the same time, you want to ensure that if the Minister is scheduling decisions either at the beginning of this process that are anticipated and are largely non-controversial, that Minister could do so without a consultation requirement; but also in future, where there is a particular public interest in making an allowance for overseas products very quickly, that the Minister wouldn\u2019t be in any way held up from doing that because of these, what are meant to be, enabling provisions for a Minister to seek advice or input from a sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI will also ask now the question around monitoring \u201Cemerging trends in building [and] design, etc,\u201D and reporting annually. Does that \u201Cetc\u201D include competition issues and those good things that this bill is heralded to achieve, and that Labour supports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00229c51e5f86ca44055a33add03a5db87e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c51e5f86ca44055a33add03a5db87e7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, and I thank the member Arena Williams for her questions. In terms of the Minister or the chief executive of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) taking advice, I think he or she would be well advised to seek such advice, unless one is a technical expert oneself, and, in fact, even if that\u2019s the case, I think it\u2019s prudent to seek a wide range of views that are expert. So the consultation that we\u2019ve talked about in a couple of other contexts earlier today, I think would be something that a prudent decision maker would undertake in terms of a particular scenario in which a quick decision might be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI suppose I should make the obvious comment that a consultation that\u2019s reasonable in the prevailing circumstances would be wise. I suppose, in terms of challenging these decisions, as always, a Government decision maker\u2014an executive decision maker\u2014can have their decisions challenged by way of judicial review. That\u2019s not usually very practicable, as the Hon David Parker referenced in relation to scraps over the issuing or non-issuing of building consents. I will say, however, for the sake of completeness, that the MBIE determinations route is available for those who are having such discussions or disputes to resolve those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022b404463625c84a88b2ecaf0bdfcb8b72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b404463625c84a88b2ecaf0bdfcb8b72\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for Building and Construction for that advice, and that is helpful to clarify his thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIf it is the intention that, in all circumstances, the Minister or the chief executive would be seeking consultation before making a decision to recognise a particular scheme or a particular product, then I guess the question in my mind is: in a particular crisis like the one that New Zealand experienced in the availability of plasterboard, would we be looking to, say, an expert task force to be providing that sort of quick consultation? It\u2019s been well canvassed in the first part of this debate that there are competition issues at play in the New Zealand market, and so a consultation with New Zealand players on any given product might result in feedback through that consultation which wasn\u2019t conducive to increasing the market power of importers. It might not be the sort of useful advice that the Minister might be seeking in any given time, so I just wanted to clarify that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy other question is: does section 169 and the change to the regulation-making power here consider that it would be useful for the chief executive to report annually on competition issues in the building sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbb6258751d04012a09e03a4bf380bc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbb6258751d04012a09e03a4bf380bc7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I thank the member for her latest questions and comments. I attempted to cover the scenario that she\u2019s described in the case of building-supply shortage, perhaps through supply shops, as we\u2019ve experienced previously in this country, by saying that the consideration of expert advice should be, as you know, reasonably necessary in the circumstances. And, of course, if the circumstances dictate an expedited process, then that might well be the prudent course of action for the Minister or the chief executive. I do note, however, that we haven\u2019t set up a specific legal requirement. That, itself, could be a matter of unnecessary bureaucracy or time when, of course, the whole purpose of the legislation, in the first instance, is to be more enabling in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022200aeaa8ea114224bd23320098bc3a35\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00225c5a202718b446979f21aeaa173e17d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c5a202718b446979f21aeaa173e17d7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on clauses 1 to 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd58534170b24200ae85b66397d9775d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd58534170b24200ae85b66397d9775d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The committee has considered the Building (Overseas Building Products, Standards, and Certification Schemes) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002249d8c53a832b486a8c44b382da66fcfa\u0022\u003EPlain Language Act Repeal Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c886663ce9fd49d989ef560ec82c6631\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002240a3920bb73a4e30bc8c3e4ef76f8634\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240a3920bb73a4e30bc8c3e4ef76f8634\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for the Public Service: I present a legislative statement on the Plain Language Act Repeal Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226234240ebeb04a30b10de8f27bc5e357\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239a142c7d03c4967a0f887c04b6f1859\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Plain Language Act Repeal Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Governance and Administration Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThis bill repeals the Plain Language Act 2022. The purpose of the bill is threefold. It repeals an ineffective Act, it removes an unnecessary compliance burden on Public Service agencies, and it ensures Government resources can be used more efficiently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EClear communication with the public is important, so let me be very clear\u2014put it in plain language, if you will. We are calling on an Act implemented by the Labour Government in 2022 that created a problem where there wasn\u2019t one. It is yet another example of wasteful spending on bureaucracy that Labour is so fond of but that this Government has no time for. Time is money, and at a time when many people are doing it tough, we want to make sure that taxpayer money is spent on the things that actually matter, things that grow our economy. Appointing plain language officers, as this Act requires, grows nothing but bureaucracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EIt is an example of Government overreach. You cannot legislate for or against something that is subjective in nature and open to interpretation. That\u2019s why we would never know whether the Plain Language Act 2022 resulted in a meaningful improvement in communication. The only clear outcome is that it placed an unnecessary administrative constraint on Public Service, and it created a box-ticking exercise for agencies. Government agencies should always communicate in an easy-to-understand language, and it is the Government\u2019s expectation that agencies always strive for and uphold the highest standards of communication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EBut it is a mistake to think that laws can fix every problem. As much as we would like people to make good choices, it is not something you can achieve with legislation. Plain language is achieved through clear thinking, commitment, and common sense. It is the responsibility of every public servant to communicate using clear, easy-to-comprehend language. It doesn\u2019t take a plain language officer to know that gobbledygook and word salads mean nothing to anyone. Words are just words if no one understands them. This bill is not about abandoning high standards in clear communication; it is about freeing up our Public Service from an ineffective law. The Government is 100 percent committed to communicating clearly with New Zealanders. We want Government agencies to write and speak in a manner people can understand and appreciate. Public information written in plain language makes life easier for people relying on Government services, it makes it easier for people to make informed decisions, and it makes it easier for people to understand their rights and responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe Plain Language Act 2022 cannot make these things happen. The Act has not fixed a problem; it has created a problem. The Public Service has better things to do than appointing plain language officers, producing guidance documents, and reporting to someone on something that is unclear. The Government is determined to spend taxpayer money more efficiently. The Plain Language Act 2022 has created unnecessary activity, unnecessary compliance, and an unnecessary use of resources. Repealing this Act cuts red tape and will allow the Public Service to get on with what really matters: delivering services for the people of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI could speak for another five minutes, but I believe that I have put the Government\u2019s position clearly and concisely, and\u2014dare I say it!\u2014in plain language. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8c29fa4232b4310a5e267a71c351722\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8c29fa4232b4310a5e267a71c351722\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00227dc0c1efb76e4cdda24058b32ef1b029\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dc0c1efb76e4cdda24058b32ef1b029\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, well, well\u2014look where we are. A Government which was elected on the promise of reducing the cost of living has set out its priorities very clearly. They put us into urgency last week and we went through more legislation as a result, and, unfortunately, it appears that their legislation has dried up. So Chris Bishop, as Leader of the House, has thought, \u201CDon\u2019t worry. I\u2019ll just open my drawer entitled \u2018Pet Peeves\u2019.\u201D, and this petty Government has pulled out a repeal of a sensible Act and is wasting New Zealand\u2019s time and this House\u2019s time by repealing what is, essentially, a sensible Act that everyone agrees with. How interesting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EHow interesting that a Government that says it is focused on the things that New Zealanders care about decides to bring up a grudge from the last Parliament that was particularly irksome to the Leader of the House and decides to waste Parliament\u2019s time on something that we all, essentially, agree with, and that is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227746ae75dd5f4420ac819a90ac9426c0\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down, and we\u2019ll move on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d511f6b7ee054ef9acc73fd16d9de236\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not my job not to waste Parliament\u2019s time, Mr Costley. It\u2019s my job to hold the Government to account, and I say, on behalf of New Zealanders, that this is a waste of our time, and we wish that we had a Government that would focus on the things that New Zealanders really care about: jobs, health, homes, and the cost of living. Instead, our petty, small-minded Government is repealing an Act that does this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c74e483ceb94939a59d6c2fb608f205\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Who passed it into law? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5ae1662dd594b068826a75024cbe1a1\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: This is a good law, and I will tell the member opposite why it\u2019s a good law. It is clear that it is an important part of our democracy that Government organisations and agencies communicate in a way that people can understand. This is an important democratic right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI think we can all agree that we are in an important time in our politics, both domestically and internationally, where we should be focusing on the things that keep our democracy strong, and communicating in a way that is clear is essential to participation in our democracy. I agree with that; those members opposite agree with that\u2014we all agree with that. The one thing that I would take issue with is not the content of the original Act, and not the intention of the original Act, but the fact that those opposite decide that it is of such importance that only part-way through the first term\u2014not even towards the end\u2014they have run out of legislation and they have decided only to bring a petty repeal of what was a member\u2019s bill to the House, a member\u2019s bill which actually strengthened our democracy and actually made it easier for people to communicate with their Government and understand the things that are essential to them. It is such a waste of time to even have this before the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI want to pay tribute to Rachel Boyack. She was the member who brought this member\u2019s bill to the House originally, and it turned into an Act. Let me tell you, the hypocrisy of this is just extreme, because what the Government says is the reason that they\u2019re repealing this is that it\u2019s not strong enough. They say that it has no legislative teeth and that the reason that they want to repeal it is because it\u2019s going to cut red tape. Well, this is work that public agencies should already be doing. They should already be focused on making sure they communicate clearly to the public. They should already be focused on making sure that the things that they do are easily understood by people in our democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIf I may reflect quickly on Rachel Boyack and the reason she brought this to the House, it was because as an electorate MP, she saw again and again and again the issues that people had. They were maybe people who had recently moved to New Zealand who had English as a second language, or maybe people who were just confused by the writing by Government agencies that was so difficult to understand and who wanted to see something clearer. She was having to deal with that. She brought a bill to the House to make it clearer for New Zealanders so that they knew what the Government was doing with their taxpayer money, so that they knew what the Government\u2019s agenda was and so that they knew what their obligations were. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENo matter what the other side says, it does not impose a lot of red tape. One of the criticisms is that there\u2019s no legislative enforcement in a court of law, but still this petty, small-minded Government chooses to repeal it, when they could easily be focused on the things that matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u00222f9efd2c3c43407aa1eadd8cb4669a7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f9efd2c3c43407aa1eadd8cb4669a7f\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m proud today to rise on behalf of the Green Party to oppose this out-of-touch bill that fundamentally shows the Government\u2019s lack of understanding of what\u2019s actually happening in the real world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EWhen we talk to everyday New Zealanders, there\u2019s a sense that they\u2019re conveying to me\u2014and that\u2019s a sense that I\u2019m sharing\u2014that New Zealand seems to be unravelling at the seams. Unemployment is at record high. The cost of living is spiralling out of control, with a recent report, actually, that a quarter of New Zealanders sometimes or often go without meals. That\u2019s a scandal, in a country as prosperous as New Zealand, that a quarter of New Zealanders sometimes or often go without meals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EWe know that the public services that everyday New Zealanders are relying on are getting worse thanks to the Government cuts. We\u2019ve all heard of doctors having to do admin work or janitorial work just to keep the lights running. This bill is a manifestation of how this Government seems to be doubling down on their agenda of prioritising private profit over public good. We can see it in the wider Government actions, but we can also say, in this bill, why is the Government prioritising repealing an Act that enabled a wider variety of New Zealanders to participate in interacting with Government and that made legislation and the things that the Public Service did more accessible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ENow, when the original bill was brought before the House\u2014and I acknowledge the member Rachel Boyack; this was her member\u2019s bill\u2014the original bill was supported by a wide variety of organisations. It was supported by disabled and disability advocacy groups such as Blind Low Vision New Zealand, it was supported by Deaf Action New Zealand\u2014and I actually acknowledge their submission, which was a really short submission; it was a very plain language submission, and I think it said something along the lines of \u201CWe support this bill.\u201D, so very in theme\u2014and the National Disabled Students\u2019 Association. Even the Free Speech Union, which is not really an ideological bedfellow of members on this side of the House, supported it to select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EWe know that the benefit of plain language benefits all New Zealanders. Accessible language benefits New Zealanders with disabilities. Plain language benefits new New Zealanders\u2014and, look, we shouldn\u2019t get into generalisations about the English language skills of new New Zealanders. My colleague to my left here, Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, is demonstrating in his skills in the committee of the whole House stage that new New Zealanders can actually have a mastery of techniques of English language and rhetoric and oratory. So we shouldn\u2019t generalise and say that new New Zealanders necessarily have poor language skills, but this does help the new New Zealanders who actually do struggle with English. There\u2019s going to be more of them because one of the things that this Government has done is repealed the English language requirement for overseas investors. So this will actually help all those new New Zealanders who are able to come here because they\u2019re on investment visas, and it will enable them to access the legislation, which is actually pretty important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003EPlain language enables a variety of perspectives that otherwise wouldn\u2019t be heard. I mean, you know, for my sins, I\u2019m one of those overly educated New Zealanders. I\u2019ve got an honours degree, and a master\u2019s degree, and I\u2019m working on the second one. But I don\u2019t think government should just be for people with too many university degrees. I think using plain language enables more New Zealanders to access that. But who does this repeal actually benefit? It benefits lobbyists and private interests because this reduces the ability of New Zealanders to engage and debate every day the stuff that the wider Public Service and the Government are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003ENow, one of the interesting things that I\u2019ve read over the past month was an article on Newsroom, and it went into detail about how this Government had slowed the lobbying reform that the previous Government was working on. I\u2019ll just read here a quote: \u201CIt seems like a way of killing off a reform work stream without actually getting the bad publicity for having done so\u2014just by kind of freezing it and going to ground and ghosting everyone on it.\u201D That was said by Dr Bryce Edwards, who was the supervisor for my dissertation. Look, I agree with what he said. It just seems like by slowing down the lobbying reform and repealing this bill, which had plain language, we\u2019re just helping them out. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8220e7c88694066b59208c4b6038973\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8220e7c88694066b59208c4b6038973\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a privilege to stand, today, on behalf of ACT and support the Plain Language Act Repeal Bill. I actually remember when this bill was put up as a bill, and I actually thought it was satire when I first saw what the bill was trying to achieve. I thought, \u201CThis can\u2019t be for real, here.\u201D We\u2019re creating a whole new layer of public-servant bureaucracy to achieve asking officials and asking our people working for us to write in language that everybody can understand and to appoint officers\u2014plain language officers\u2014to oversee that people are writing in plain language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich is right. We are a Government that wants to focus on things that matter, and we are a Government that is looking at how our Public Service works and making sure that it is efficient, making sure that we are getting value for money, and making sure that we are focusing on the people that we\u2019re trying to serve. Having plain language officers sitting around, making sure that someone is writing in plain language, is not an efficient way to be using taxpayers\u2019 money, in my opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ESo I am really glad to see the repeal of this bill so that we can get back to focusing on what is important to New Zealanders and so that our Public Service is actually there working for them. When I first became a Minister\u2014I do understand\u2014sometimes you get documents across your desk and you\u2019re looking at all these acronyms and words you may not understand and you do have to have a word with them and say, \u201CHey, could you please bring this back to me in a language I can understand?\u201D And that\u2019s pretty simple. \u201CPlease bring it back to me in a language I can understand.\u201D And guess what? The next time it came across my desk, it was in a language I could understand. I didn\u2019t need an officer to stand over those public servants and make sure that they wrote it in plain language for myself. It\u2019s not that difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI think the objective of making sure that people do understand what is in front of them is important, but I don\u2019t believe adding another layer to our Public Service is a way to do that. No wonder our Public Service bloated and grew under the previous Government, with ideas like this to grow the sector and with no actual objectives apart from creating a job that\u2019s pointless, quite frankly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re making sure that we\u2019re not going to do that any more, and we\u2019re going to save that money and we\u2019re going to reinvest it back into the people that we serve, which is the public, who wanted us to make sure that our Public Service is efficient and that we are spending their money well, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022 data-id=\u00221ec1566bb6ed4698966e0fd99b68f337\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ec1566bb6ed4698966e0fd99b68f337\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support the Plain Language Act Repeal Bill. Firstly, New Zealand First, unfortunately, was not in Government when this bill was passed. So, interestingly, as this goes through select committee will be a time, I guess, we will hear the pros and cons of what was actually achieved from this bill. But New Zealand First is committed to streamlining bureaucracy where necessary and ensuring accountability alongside efficient use of Government funds and resource.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EThe Plain Language Act 2022 is repealed by this bill, and repealing this is a display of what New Zealand First believes will be common sense. The Act added unnecessary administrative requirements, as the Labour Party loved to do, and they did not deliver tangible outcomes, as the Labour Party also loves to do. We have long been a proponent of reducing bureaucracy and in our 2020 manifesto committed to cutting excess regulation and red tape, and we maintain this position today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EThis bill will tangibly lessen time wasted in Government agencies. It reduces reporting requirements and will ensure public servants focus on the basic responsibilities and are not burdened by reporting standards. Individual autonomy is maintained in this bill and it still allows Government agencies to use plain language voluntarily. That\u2019s something I think everyone in this House understands across the sector, where things are put into terms by officials where many of us need that opportunity for the language to be used in a way that we all understand. And it is our thinking that we don\u2019t need that to be legislated through a mandate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EWe are very pleased to prevent wastage of expenditure on the measures that add no value to the public. I just want to go through section 5 of the original Act. If you actually read section 5 of the Plain Language Act, I think it\u2019s something most of us would all agree with: is to be \u201Cappropriate to the intended audience;\u201D that the language being used is \u201Cclear, concise, and well organised.\u201D I think that in itself is something that is common sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EBut as we heard from the last speaker, the Hon Karen Chhour, when you get to section 11 of the original Act, \u201CPlain language officers\u201D\u2014and this is where this bill took on its own life, and adding extra bureaucracy for something that should have been simple and common sense has not been achieved. I\u2019ve also heard, talking to a number of people about this bill, they said originally it was very much like a word salad. It was very much off target in that sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EThrough that, New Zealand First is willing to hear the views through the select committee. But for today, we commend the bill to the House and support it through its passage. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u002280130f7b50be43399590b6daec9c15c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280130f7b50be43399590b6daec9c15c2\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te Pika, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i te rangi nei m\u014D t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 Pire ar\u0101 ko te Plain Language Repeal Bill. Engari i roto i t\u014Dku ake reo, in my first language, ka k\u014Drero katoatia au i roto i te reo M\u0101ori n\u0101 i runga an\u014D i t\u0113nei mea kua tino kite au i ng\u0101 t\u0101mitanga o t\u0113nei k\u0101wana ki t\u014Dku ake reo. Kua kite ahau i ng\u0101 mea e t\u0101mitia i t\u014Dku ake reo, n\u0101 reira he \u0101hua uaua ki te kite i t\u0113nei momo mea te Plain Language Repeal Bill n\u0101 runga an\u014D i te mea ko t\u0113nei momo Pire kua kite i roto i te kotahi rau r\u0101 o t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EKua kite i ng\u0101 kupu kua whakaparahakotia, kua h\u0101mene, n\u014D reira, \u0101e, he \u0101hua uaua ki a au. N\u0101 runga an\u014D i te mea, ko t\u014Dku reo tuatahi ko te reo M\u0101ori. N\u014D reira ko taku whakareanga, ko te nuinga o t\u014D t\u0101tou reanga, ko t\u014D m\u0101tou reo tuatahi ko te reo M\u0101ori. N\u014D reira, \u0101e, te plain language i roto i t\u014D koutou reo, engari p\u0113whea m\u014D t\u014Dku ake reo. Koir\u0101 te tino p\u0101tai e p\u0101taitia nei e au. \u0100e, m\u014D t\u014D koutou reo, engari p\u0113whea m\u014D t\u014Dku reo M\u014D t\u014Dku reo, m\u014D ng\u0101 reanga? Tahi miriona o t\u0101tou kei te haramai, ko te manako ia ka tae mai \u0113tehi atu o taku reanga ki roto i t\u0113nei Whare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EEngari, me te mea an\u014D hoki, m\u014Dhio ana au ehara t\u0113nei kaupapa i te kaupapa tino hohonu. Engari, ko taku whaea, karani, ko Hana Te Hemara t\u0113r\u0101, i kawea mai te petihana reo M\u0101ori ki t\u0113nei ake Whare i roto i te tau tahi mano, iwa rau, whitu tekau m\u0101 rua. Ko tana petihana ko te whaka\u016B i te reo M\u0101ori hei reo t\u016Bturu m\u014D t\u0113nei whenua. N\u014D reira, koir\u0101 t\u0101 m\u0101ua whakaaro m\u014D t\u0113nei pire. \u0100e, m\u014Dhio p\u016B ana ahau ehara i te mea me tino, k\u0101ore au i te m\u014Dhio ki te tino kupu, enagri he aha te kupu M\u0101ori m\u014D te bureaucrat? Aua. Engari m\u014D ng\u0101 kupu, me k\u012B ao m\u0101tauranga nei, \u0101e e tautokotia ana i t\u0113r\u0101. Me m\u0101rama te katoa, m\u0113 m\u0101rama te katoa, \u0101e, me whakatairanga i te reo, i ng\u0101 kupu e m\u0101rama ana i t\u014D m\u0101tou reanga, i t\u014D m\u0101tou ahurea engari me mana \u014Drite ng\u0101 mea e rua. M\u0113n\u0101 ko te reo M\u0101ori te reo t\u016Bturu o t\u0113nei whenua me mana \u014Drite. K\u0101ore an\u014D au kua tino kite i t\u0113nei reo e kaha kite ana i roto i t\u0113nei pire. N\u014D reira koir\u0101 taku \u0101wangawanga ki t\u0113nei\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you, Mr Speaker, greetings to all in the House. I stand to voice the position of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori today about this bill, the Plain Language Act Repeal Bill. But I will do so in my language, in my first language. I will speak only te reo M\u0101ori as I have witnessed the oppression by this Government of my language. I have seen the things that oppress my language, so I find it difficult seeing things like the Plain Language Act Repeal Bill, as I have seen this type of bill within the first 100 days of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI have seen the words that are offensive and penalising, so therefore, yes this is difficult for me, due to the fact that my first language is the M\u0101ori language. My generation, for most of us the M\u0101ori language is our first language. So, plain language, in your language, but how about in my language? This is the genuine question I am asking. Yes, in your language it is fine, but what about my language? My language for my generation? There will be 1 million of my generation soon, and the hope is that some will enter this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI know that this issue may seem mundane and not too profound, but it was my grand-aunt Hana Te Hemara who carried the M\u0101ori language petition to this House in 1972. Her petition\u2019s aim was to affirm the M\u0101ori language as an authentic language of this land. Therefore, that is our opinion with respect to this bill. I am conscious that there may not be a pressing\u2014what is the correct word, in the language for bureaucrat? I am unsure, but in terms of the words, of the academic world, I support that. Everyone should understand what is being said and that the language should be promoted, and the use of words that my generation understands, our culture, but that it should be equitable with respect to both languages. The M\u0101ori language is the authentic language and should be treated equally. I am still not seeing this language in this bill. That is my concern\u2014]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e10bed41023462a9fdaa37d08083b80\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Kei hea te pire mana \u014Drite m\u014D te reo M\u0101ori? [Where is the equity bill for the M\u0101ori language?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227be0bda3d9244721b4d1bc71b2552d88\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: \u0100e, kei whea te pire mana \u014Drite m\u014D te reo M\u0101ori. Koir\u0101 t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakatau me t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakaaro ki t\u0113nei pire. \u0100e, Plain Language Repeal Bill he mea e m\u0101rama ai te katoa, engari m\u014Dku ake, m\u014D t\u0101 m\u0101tou reanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Where is the bill about equality for the M\u0101ori language? This is our stance and our position with respect to this bill. Yes, everyone but my generation understands the Plain Language Repeal Bill.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1c01056965c4754bedc85c47b92a83a\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the M\u0101ori Language Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aec5e186e4ae41538bbc3e8d8c598276\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: \u0100e, it is about that, actually\u2014the M\u0101ori Language Act\u2014because it\u2019s about the experiences that I have as a first-language speaker. And my constituents, who, roughly, are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d12869f7b4d4f0597d05d22d8dbe5f5\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Kua whatia te reo e te hunga r\u0101. [The language has been broken by those people.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d799d84a6d44a23b462a9e68417645f\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. For those who want to know on the other side\u2014yes, it is about that, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212c579d8d82342f99e3116c78a42fd0c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t conduct a dialogue across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022564128a3c1564bab9f68e78a6ebce095\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Madam Speaker, I\u2019m speaking through the whole House. This is who I represent; these are my constituents. My constituents are mainly first-language speakers in te reo M\u0101ori, so this is what this\u2014we were not brought up at all on this. Yeah, it\u2019s not really a big deal of a bill, but for us it is, and we want to be represented in bills across the board, across all legislation. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdde1bdd33444d5781c3c5cf5b6b3415\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdde1bdd33444d5781c3c5cf5b6b3415\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Hello, Madam Speaker. This is a great Act to repeal\u2014a terrible Act. That\u2019s what\u2019s happening here. If you\u2019re following along at home, the Act did two things. The first one should have just been common sense. Someone rings up and says, \u201CHey, I don\u2019t understand how to fill in this passport form\u201D, \u201COh, well, I can help you with that\u201D\u2014problem solved. But instead, what they did is said let\u2019s create some more of the extra 18,400 bureaucrats that they created\u2014I appreciate it\u2019s hard to find the word in te reo M\u0101ori because it\u2019s actually an invention of the Labour Party. That\u2019s what bureaucrats are. But what they did is create these plain language officers in section 11 of the Act, plain language officers that would have to deal with these problems. And then they would report up through layers of the agency to the chief executive. And the chief executives would report to the commissioner, and the commissioner would report to the Minister. All these layers of bureaucracy created to solve a problem that wasn\u2019t really there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EAnd it wasn\u2019t just that, because this is what Rachel Boyack in her first reading speech wanted the Act to do: she wanted these new plain language officers that would be created both inside and outside agencies\u2014in other words, new people; \u201CHire some new people, please. We\u2019ve only got an extra 18,000 so far. We can do better.\u201D\u2014to do things like training agency employees, to deal with complaints, and to manage requests from the public. And on and on it goes. In fact, the Greens called it a really cute fluffy bill. It was all fluff. That\u2019s all it was. It was nothing but fluff. It\u2019s probably more like a furball, to be honest, because that\u2019s what it looks like it came from. I love it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EI read some of the speeches that people wrote. This is what Rachel Boyack said: \u201CThat\u2019s part of the role of plain language is actually, like that sentence I read before, any sentence that\u2019s longer than 20 words is actually considered under plain language rules as being too long.\u201D What she\u2019s saying is you can\u2019t have a sentence in any document that\u2019s longer than 20 words. The problem is her sentence to explain it took 34 words. You think that\u2019s bad, wait till you get to Naisi Chen\u2019s speech\u2014102 words. I don\u2019t have time to read out\u2014two of her sentences alone hit 200 words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s go down to Glen Bennett. He\u2019s only at 40 words. He\u2019s only at 40 words, is Glen Bennett\u2014so only double the allowable length. Goes on about \u201Cwonderful, wonderful, huge\u201D, \u201Cspoons in your mouth\u201D, and \u201Cunder your tongue\u201D that he\u2019s talking about. Finishes with \u201CBe not afraid because you can still continue with your large and big words.\u201D I mean, this is the grasp of the English language on the other side\u2014maybe we do need to think about this legislation again. I mean, the bitter irony of this must weigh heavier on the Labour Party than a full volume of Roget\u2019s Thesaurus. I mean, honestly, this stuff is terrible. We heard that there were a couple of people that supported it. They left out people like the Law Society that opposed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich finished by saying, you know, \u201CWhat are the other ideas of the Government?\u201D, despite the fact that they were willing to set aside a lot of time in select committees and the House to push this legislation that wasn\u2019t needed through. I\u2019ll give you some better ideas. Here\u2019s one: the Modern Slavery Reporting Bill. That was in the ballot at the time in 2022, and the House could have spent its time on that, but, no, we did plain language officers. It could have been changes to the New Zealand Public Health and Disability Act through things like bringing back national health targets or a three-day post-natal stay. But no, no, no\u2014Labour had better ideas: \u201CLet\u2019s bring about plain language officers and create some more people.\u201D What about the Parental Leave and Employment Protection (Shared Leave) Amendment Bill under Nicola Willis\u2019s name. That was great. What about life jackets for children and young persons, repealing the regional fuel tax, gang free ports, enabling restricted drivers to get to work\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222196bdd1ebfe42df8e3d00d91ef066c3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: What about coming back to this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb4d338892cb459bbc7f598b31347b2c\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I could go on. But this is about this bill because that\u2019s what this bill was brought in against: all of those bills that could have been picked up, that could have spent time going through the House, but the House\u2019s time was consumed with a rubbish bill that we don\u2019t need. It was a furball, it was fluff, it was not required. They couldn\u2019t even stick to their own rules in speaking about it at the time. And that\u2019s why we are pleased to pass this bill now, which removes it. I commend our bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00223e0eb2e25f9444ccb69ed89cdc950368\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e0eb2e25f9444ccb69ed89cdc950368\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Labour\u2014Panmure-\u014Ct\u0101huhu):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to give a contribution on the Plain Language Act Repeal Bill. I would like to begin with our demographics of Aotearoa New Zealand first. So the 2023 census data tells us that there are over a million people in Aotearoa New Zealand now who are people with ethnic community background. When you look at the numbers of Pacific people, there are over 450,000 Pacific people here. You add the number of tangata whenua M\u0101ori to that\u2014it\u2019s well over 900,000. That\u2019s close to 50 percent of the overall total population of Aotearoa New Zealand now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESo if you were to ask \u201CIs there a need for plain language for our legislation?\u201D, I would say yes, when close to 50 percent of the total population of our country is made up of people who do not necessarily speak English. When we look at the largest city in this country, T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland, more than 40 percent of the people who live in the largest city in this country were not born in Aotearoa New Zealand; they were born overseas. So do we need the Plain Language Act? I would say so\u2014yes, absolutely. The Labour Party absolutely opposes this bill, the Plain Language Act Repeal Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EOne of the contributions that we just heard from across the floor just now said that if you were to ring a Government department, then just take someone else with you. If you don\u2019t really understand the English language, have that person help you. But when you ring a Government agency nowadays, most of the time you talk to a machine; you don\u2019t actually talk to a human being. If I\u2019m to go to my electorate office in South Auckland, in \u014Ctara, I have so many people that come to see me who don\u2019t speak very good English. They\u2019re Samoans, they\u2019re Tongans, they\u2019re Indians\u2014they\u2019re from all over the world. A lot of the times, when they do come, they actually bring a child with them who can interpret for them and on their behalf because they do not speak good English. So the question again: do we need plain language for our legislation? Absolutely\u2014yes, we do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESo the aims of the bill that is being repealed were to improve effectiveness and accountability of Public Service agencies, to ensure documents are clear, concise, well organised, and appropriate to the intended service. Now, one of the things that this Plain Language Act Repeal Bill says is that in order for better administrative costs, we should repeal this Act. However, when we look at the transitional provisions of the original bill that\u2019s being repealed, it was very clear. They stated that plain language requirements only apply when new documents are brought in\u2014then plain language applies\u2014or older documents when they\u2019re updated, but only when they\u2019re substantially revised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESo the question is: is there going to be a lot of administrative cost for this bill that\u2019s being repealed? I actually don\u2019t think it\u2019s going to be as much as what the Government partners are saying that it would cost. If you were to ask whether it is important that close to 50 percent of our country understand the laws that we write, I would say yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EI would also refer not to just laws but to Government documents. If I\u2019m to go back to the times of COVID-19, there were so many documents that came through and they weren\u2019t actually written in plain language. But not only that, we had to actually ensure that it was written in plain English, but we also needed to interpret it\u2014to translate it\u2014into the majority languages that people would understand. Why? Because we needed them to understand the importance of why they needed to be vaccinated, the importance of why we all needed to ensure that we save each other\u2019s lives if we\u2019re to get vaccinated. So we absolutely oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6a6b06246b74c8ba242dc773ee0396d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6a6b06246b74c8ba242dc773ee0396d\u0022\u003EHon MELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s an absolute pleasure to rise to speak on this Plain Language Act Repeal Bill in its first reading. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the Hon Jenny Salesa, who just sat down. I do agree with her in terms of the struggles that many ethnic communities, who now make up a large population, actually have. But in her argument she was talking about how, during the vaccination campaign in COVID times, the vaccination information needed to be translated in their own language. That is what was needed\u2014not necessarily simple English; it was needed in the language that they understood. The other thing that she actually talked about is how there are many people who come to her electorate office with a child to translate for them. This Act has been in place since 2022. It\u2019s now 2025, and she still has people coming to her office with a child to translate for them, so, obviously, the Plain Language Act has not actually worked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThis is the very reason. This doesn\u2019t need a lot of time to debate. One of the issues that I have with this Plain Language Act is that as a migrant who grew up speaking English as a second language, I could not understand a lot of things. And, yes, I was that child who interpreted for my parents, but how many times do you actually see parents going through pieces of legislation? Often, it is the lawyers, the accountants, or the doctors who actually speak to them who they don\u2019t actually understand in their day-to-day life. It is not legislation or law that requires plain language. As long as it actually makes good law, I don\u2019t have a problem with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EOne of the pieces of advice that I actually got from a mentor many, many years ago, when I first began in Parliament, was that members\u2019 bills should not cost taxpayers any money. This was a member\u2019s bill that is costing taxpayers because they\u2019re having to put in an officer to police plain language in our Government and our bureaucracy. I completely support this new bill to reduce what that former Government actually created. I completely support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3465a67ed0e4b2aabb690fe5e98895b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3465a67ed0e4b2aabb690fe5e98895b\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019m actually a little bit shocked at the amount of fluff, on the other side, on this bill. If a Government\u2019s going to repeal an Act, it had better do a good job justifying it. And what I want to do is just go plainly through what this legislation did and what we will miss, because this legislation wasn\u2019t just about Acts of Parliament; it was about documents that interface, in terms of law, between what the Parliament decides and Government departments do and how they actually impact on ordinary New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIf you have a look at section 6 of the Act that will be repealed, you\u2019ll see that it applies to a range of documents. That\u2019s your forms. That\u2019s your documents that make people comply. It\u2019s things like filing and registering and lodging information. It\u2019s explaining how the public can comply with the requirement, it\u2019s providing information to the public about that requirement, and it\u2019s providing information as part of a public education initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EAll of those things are really essential for people to know and to have plain words put around them so that they can be absolutely sure, if we\u2019re going to run a democracy and if we\u2019re going to run a place where people know what\u2019s required of them and have a decent chance of complying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EAnd, yes, we have to meet people as they are, not as the people that we might be ourselves. We might have been to university or we might be able to go and ask a lawyer, but not everybody can do that. As a lawyer, I have seen the confusion that happens when people don\u2019t know how to access information like this. They are confused by the words. It happens, despite people\u2019s best intentions, because people bury into what they\u2019re doing and they don\u2019t know that, in fact, what they\u2019re doing is not comprehensible to someone else. So this puts a bit of rigour around it. It said that someone in the organisation is going to be responsible for making sure that when we produce a document which is going to mean that the public have to comply or is a form that they\u2019re going to need to use, we are going to have someone in our organisation who looks at that document and, actually, is also responsible for getting the feedback from the public and making sure that they\u2019re correcting it when it needs to be corrected because it\u2019s not plain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I want to tell you a very funny little story about this. I\u2019ve seen a public document\u2014we had an Act the other day\u2014that was very much this. I urge people to have a look at the customer data information that came through. That is actually a really good example of where plain language is used, and is used well, in an Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut, in terms of forms, I went the other day on a website where I was trying to download some Warriors tickets. Now, it was almost impossible. I was tearing my hair out by the end of my interaction with this particular website, because the person designing the website had not thought what it was like for somebody who\u2019d never been on the site before. And it wasn\u2019t self-explanatory. That\u2019s the kind of thing we can tolerate if it\u2019s a Warriors ticket. We can\u2019t tolerate that if it\u2019s something where if you don\u2019t comply, you\u2019re in trouble with the Government or you won\u2019t get the benefit that you need. That\u2019s where we can\u2019t actually tolerate that, because once we start tolerating that, we have an us and them society, don\u2019t we? We have a society where people are frustrated and disempowered. And so that\u2019s why I say this is so important. If the Warriors people would like to fix their website, I\u2019d be thrilled\u2014if they\u2019d look at it through their eyes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut this officer that\u2019s been demonised in this situation which we\u2019re talking about it\u2014that\u2019s the person who\u2019s already likely employed. That\u2019s why it was a member\u2019s bill that didn\u2019t have the cost associated. That\u2019s a person focused on making sure that the law does what it says and that people know what it does. That is not a terrible thing, and it is not a good use of the time of this Parliament to be repealing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut, more to the point, what on earth does the Government do when it has a piece of legislation like this in front of it? Who are the people who do not understand the predicament of the ordinary New Zealander and who come along and sweep this away? As the Hon Melissa Lee says, \u201CThey simply could get a lawyer.\u201D That\u2019s what we\u2019re saying\u2014\u201CGet a lawyer.\u201D; that just plays into the hands of the wealthy. That\u2019s not what the Labour Party is about, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re sad that this bill has come into the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0b88ca1d3b247529a1681b267d4e0b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0b88ca1d3b247529a1681b267d4e0b5\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in support of the Plain Language Act Appeal Bill because this Government stands for common sense, for efficiency, and for a Public Service that is focused on delivering outcomes for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders are very sick of red tape\u2014things that are in front of them that are stopping them from making progress\u2014and this Government is about cutting red tape. I\u2019m very glad this Government has picked up this bill and made it a Government bill. I had this as a member\u2019s bill in the biscuit tin, and I acknowledge the Hon Chris Bishop and the Hon Judith Collins KC for picking up this work, for their leadership, and for their support on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003ENow, let\u2019s be very clear, we are all about supporting common sense, clear, and simple communication\u2014this is not in question. But the Plain Language Act 2022, which is exactly what we\u2019re trying to repeal, did not actually improve or make it easier for people to understand. What it did, though, is add costs to budgets, for officers and for very unnecessary compliance requirements. Creating a solution for a problem but not really identifying what the problem is, is exactly why this bill needs to be repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003ENow, this Act requires the public agencies to appoint a plain language officer to report on compliance\u2014to have someone on the headcount to simply go around and look for a problem that didn\u2019t really exist. Now, agencies are then forced into ticking the box and make sure that there is something that has spent time and money\u2014trying to tick a box and show that they\u2019ve done something good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003ETo be clear, plain language is not a principle. Plain language shouldn\u2019t be a policy that forces people to follow it. Plain language is actually a writing standard. Plain language isn\u2019t something that we should be trying to regulate through law. This repeal is not about opposing plain English; it is about respecting also the judgment calls of our public servants. It is about trusting their professionalism and removing the bureaucratic requirements that have actually served no practical purpose but to increase the headcount and the salary cost that we are adding through the officers. And let\u2019s not forget\u2014let\u2019s not forget\u2014many of the agencies were already using plain language all along, before this Act even existed. So this isn\u2019t about abandoning the good practice; it is actually about removing the cost, the extra cost, the extra layer, and the extra level of legislative requirements and letting people get on with doing their jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003ETo those who have said before me that this Act is symbolic, well, actually, it is, because it symbolises the end of wasteful Government spending. It also symbolises the beginning of an approach that prioritises outcomes rather than ticking boxes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve also heard members before me talking about how\u2014I think Helen White, the last member who spoke, actually talked about getting a lawyer to do the work. I studied law too. I was actually a bit offended by that comment because it sounded like lawyers are there just to make money. That is not true. Lawyers are there to help, to understand\u2014to really help people who are in need\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e347fd017b574bfe94c0d7f5a75c1984\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what Labour thinks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220280a78847bd46b3b9af4700fb6f55af\u0022\u003ENANCY LU\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s what Labour thinks\u2014that is what Labour thinks\u2014and I don\u2019t know why she would put that to our audience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003ERepealing this Act is a very small step in our legislation, but I think it is a big step for accountability, for cutting out the red tape, for improving efficiency, and for actually having some common sense in Government. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a40fb1ff9cc6424bb193f71a848e195a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Plain Language Act Repeal Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A06.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000534\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c05ab5b9de824f2da2f630bab99fd406\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c05ab5b9de824f2da2f630bab99fd406\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Plain Language Act Repeal Bill be considered by the Governance and Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Governance and Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7226a93783d4970956c5aad0a15259d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7226a93783d4970956c5aad0a15259d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f5670bf01a542bf9414f4b05d3607a7\u0022\u003EOranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002245163a19e81d41c1ab53b590b047140f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e76231841784775a21987589d8b0588\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Oranga Tamariki Act 1989\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00221ad407455cd34e8d91cf2a5d7d61206d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ad407455cd34e8d91cf2a5d7d61206d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill. We begin with the debate on Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 5, \u201CAmendments to Oranga Tamariki Act 1989\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf2fa6ea49ee48ba8a230e9bb8a2d3ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf2fa6ea49ee48ba8a230e9bb8a2d3ad\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. Thank you very much for the opportunity to take this call on the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill. I have a number of questions, and we have some amendments that we would like to speak to throughout this committee stage as well, but I want to first start my contribution by saying how extremely disappointed I am in the Minister for Children for failing to listen to the majority of submissions that were opposed to the repeal of section 7AA, for not listening to the evidence that section 7AA will cause harm to tamariki M\u0101ori, for the Minister\u2019s failure to present any empirical evidence that there is a problem that exists with this section. Throughout the select committee process, no empirical evidence was provided to the Social Services and Community Committee to support the Minister\u2019s repeal of section 7AA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to start by asking the Minister: where in the bill will there be an obligation on the chief executive which replaces section 7AA(2)(a), because in the repealing of this section, that entire section is being removed and there is no proposal, no proposed amendment by the Minister, to address this issue? This is an important clause that is being repealed, because the whole purpose of section 7AA was to ensure that the duties of the chief executive set out in this section are imposed in order to recognise and provide a practical commitment to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, what section 7AA(2)(a) says is that \u201CThe chief executive must ensure that\u2014(a) the policies and practices of the department that impact on the well-being of children and young persons have the objective of reducing disparities by setting measurable outcomes for M\u0101ori children and young persons who come to the attention of the department\u201D. My question to the Minister is: why is she repealing that section? Why does the Minister not think that it is important that there be an obligation on the chief executive to ensure that the policies and practices of Oranga Tamariki reduce disparities for tamariki M\u0101ori? What is the point of retaining a strategic partnership if the purpose of that is not to ensure that we are reducing the disparities for tamariki M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: why is the Minister doing that? Where else in the bill is that obligation placed on the CEO, and what is the point of having strategic partnerships if it isn\u2019t to do the fundamental objective of this section, which is to ensure that they are reducing disparities for tamariki M\u0101ori? This is important, because tamariki M\u0101ori make up two-thirds of the children in State care. That is why we have this section. That is why this is a very, very important debate in the House this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u0022df0c44ddf77a454abbceb28f0b19fce5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df0c44ddf77a454abbceb28f0b19fce5\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Today, we are talking about the disparities that tamariki M\u0101ori face in care, and these are historical disparities that we still are dealing with today in 2025. I have an Amendment Paper, 240, and the purpose of this amendment is that it elaborates on and clarifies what is meant by requiring regard for M\u0101ori culture, values, and beliefs and why that is so important for our tamariki M\u0101ori to have safety, security, stability, and aroha, which is their birthright. It requires specific attention to be paid to the inherent value and dignity of tamariki M\u0101ori and their whakapapa in all actions taken and services delivered by Oranga Tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EA M\u0101ori worldview is one where children don\u2019t belong just to their parents; they belong and have that sense of belonging not only to their parents but to their wh\u0101nau, to their hap\u016B, to their iwi, to their maunga, to their awa, and 7AA was the bare minimum for acknowledging their rights under article 2 of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. The Green Party agree with the Waitangi Tribunal, which found that repealing section 7AA would lead to clear breaches of article 2\u2019s guarantee to M\u0101ori of tino rangatiratanga over k\u0101inga and of the Treaty principles of partnership and active protection. This bill fundamentally misunderstands that tikanga M\u0101ori and the role of wh\u0101nau in a child\u2019s wellbeing. Tamariki do not just belong to their parents; they belong to their wh\u0101nau, their hap\u016B, their iwi, their river, their maunga. M\u0101ori have long understood this, and children thrive within their whakapapa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EJust a few weeks ago, I attended the St Patrick\u2019s Day event\u2014and we\u2019re talking about the Irish people, another people who had their language, their culture try to be stamped out of them, but their Government took it seriously, and that was what they called the re-Gaelification of Ireland. Seeing those tamariki so proud of their culture, even though they live here in New Zealand and maybe had never been to Ireland before\u2014they were so proud that they knew about St Patrick\u2019s Day. They knew about their culture, and that made them feel so, so safe and stable and loved, because we know, and they know, that a child shouldn\u2019t be disconnected from their culture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe know that it has only been a short time since the royal commission of inquiry came out, and one of the main things that came out of that was that disconnection, and being pulled from their whakapapa caused actual harm to them, harm that they are still trying to heal from today. Section 7AA is the only legislative tool that comes close to addressing the failings of our Government, and its repeal will not only breach Te Tiriti but actively put tamariki M\u0101ori at risk. There is no conflict between tikanga and safety; rather, they are inseparable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThis amendment strengthens the obligation to uphold the dignity and whakapapa of tamariki M\u0101ori. I know the Minister for Children was really concerned about the interpretation of 7AA by Oranga Tamariki staff and that was what motivated her to bring this to the House, because of that interpretation. Well, this is a way, by amending this and accepting my Amendment Paper 240, to put that back in. So I want to ask: will the Minister accept this amendment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002231c2db833e3c450886332328752d4f5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231c2db833e3c450886332328752d4f5f\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, I\u2019ll just give an answer to the Hon Willow-Jean Prime around the reporting and the obligations of assessing outcomes for M\u0101ori children. This bill does not alter those obligations in any way. There are many ways that Oranga Tamariki is assessed on outcomes being achieved for M\u0101ori children and young people and their wh\u0101nau. One of those ways that is reported is produced by the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor reports, and of any questions the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor requests information from Oranga Tamariki on, Oranga Tamariki is obligated to provide that information. That\u2019s one of the ways that the chief executive is making sure that the outcomes being achieved for M\u0101ori are going well. But what I would say is that Oranga Tamariki\u2019s focus should be that all children, and outcomes of all children, should be a focus of Oranga Tamariki\u2014and all children that are in State care should be receiving the same love, care, and respect. That\u2019s the first point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThe second one is speaking to Amendment Paper 240. I will not be supporting this amendment. This amendment is not consistent with the policy intent of the bill to repeal section 7AA of the Act. The suggested amendment exists in the context of the chief executive\u2019s responsibility to achieve the principles and purposes of the Act to promote the wellbeing and best interests of children, young persons, their families, wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and family groups in particular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00224caf1a46365f4d92be2ac542ed84a9c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224caf1a46365f4d92be2ac542ed84a9c3\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister. But that wasn\u2019t actually what my questions were. My questions were not about the reporting\u2014I\u2019ll come to reporting later and the questions that I have around reporting. My questions were specifically about the legislative requirement of the CEO under the current clause 7AA(2)(a), which is being repealed, and that puts legal responsibility on the chief executive to do something, not just to report on something but to actually do it. I\u2019ll read it again for the Minister because this is important. This is the whole reason we have section 7AA, to address this issue. It says, \u201C[The chief executive must ensure] that\u2014(a) the policies and practices of the department that impact on the well-being of children and young persons have the objective of reducing disparities by setting measurable outcomes for M\u0101ori children and young persons who come to the attention of the department:\u201D This isn\u2019t about reporting what sorts of outcomes there have been. That is what the Minister answered in her question. The question I have is about the legal responsibility of the chief executive to have policies, practices, and measurable outcomes to reduce disparities for tamariki M\u0101ori. The Minister jumped to the reporting on something, but what are they reporting on? This section is being taken away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00224305a0f53c044a019463667b1749c4c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224305a0f53c044a019463667b1749c4c9\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I think I\u2019ve made it very clear that I do not feel it\u2019s necessary to have separate obligations based on race. We should be treating all our children with the same level of respect and care and making sure that they are all taken care of, in a way. And the chief executive has an obligation to the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor to report on those disparities and to have multiple reports and multiple obligations. Adding more red tape to how we deal with this, and writing reports rather than actually doing our job, is not accomplishing that. So, at the end of the day, every child deserves to be treated with the same level of care and respect and meeting their needs\u2014and if \u201Cmeeting their needs\u201D means that it is te ao M\u0101ori approach, then that should be happening. But I am not going to treat our children differently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0515534a3d5432791248904492a5047\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0515534a3d5432791248904492a5047\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chairperson. Kia ora. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. I\u2019m sure that last year, we were all told that we can\u2019t wear our party emblems and things in here, but I see that the leader of the ACT Party is over there with an ACT pin on his chest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002228367fa345c74ef09f741102a594c827\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228367fa345c74ef09f741102a594c827\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for pointing that out. Are the ACT Party members wearing any noticeable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8a9413028cd4067bd4893013f17850a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8a9413028cd4067bd4893013f17850a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, indeed. I forgot that I\u2019d put it on, and I\u2019m really pleased to see Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori trying to uphold the protocol of the House instead of dragging it down, for a change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022840cce35f70e4591b70e363a501c0eee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022840cce35f70e4591b70e363a501c0eee\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In that response, the Minister for Children said that she doesn\u2019t believe that there needs to be separate or specific policies for different ethnicities, or race, or so on in her answer. My question to the Minister is: given that M\u0101ori make up two-thirds of the children in care, does the Minister not think that it is important to have a requirement on the chief executive to look at policies and practices that would reduce those disparities for tamariki M\u0101ori that don\u2019t exist for everybody else because they do not make up two-thirds of the care system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe Minister referred in her answer to reporting on all of these things, but what is the point of having a report if there is no legal obligation on the chief executive to actually do something about it? Let\u2019s be very clear, the Minister\u2014in repealing this section 7AA\u2014is very clearly removing the obligation on the chief executive to reduce disparities for tamariki M\u0101ori. I want to understand from the Minister why she doesn\u2019t think it is important to have that legal obligation on the CEO for tamariki M\u0101ori, who make up two-thirds of the care system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u0022408f3b86145545f49963ab9f49396de1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022408f3b86145545f49963ab9f49396de1\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I also want to speak to my Amendment Paper 241, which talks about the obligations of the chief executive (CE). Now, responsibilities\u2014pay attention to what that means for tamariki M\u0101ori. What is focused on is what is addressed, and this needs to be enshrined in law because we know that tamariki M\u0101ori are not treated equally. We know that, because history has shown us over and over that tamariki M\u0101ori have been let down by the system. I\u2019m sure the Minister has been party to far more documents and information and empirical evidence than we have, and I really implore the Minister to look at that empirical evidence, because I believe in all of our ability to decipher between empirical evidence and evidence. That is what we\u2019re talking about here when we\u2014it is not good enough to just expect something to be reported on and to leave it up to the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor. When something is enshrined in law, it happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWith the CE being responsible for the disparities that tamariki M\u0101ori face, that means that those disparities can actually lessen, and that\u2019s the goal, right? Wouldn\u2019t it be amazing if we didn\u2019t have to have it, if in fact that would be the ideal? But at the moment, what the Minister is asking us is to walk around in a pitch-black shed with a torch, shining at these issues, shining a light on the darkness that happens within State care. But what we need to do is have that chief executive turn on the lights so that we can see the whole picture of what is happening, and shine a light on all of the darkness so that our tamariki M\u0101ori can have everything they deserve: all of the safety, which I know the Minister has said she\u2019s really, really focused on; to have the stability that all of our tamariki deserve and need, and that aroha. When we boil it down, that is what all tamariki need: safety, stability, and aroha.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the evidence, we can see that when we have reported on these things, when we have reported on the disparities of tamariki M\u0101ori, actually, the proportion of M\u0101ori tamariki in care has reduced. It is working. So the concerns that the Minister has about section 7AA\u2014well, let\u2019s keep the really cool stuff that\u2019s in section 7AA, the stuff that means that tamariki M\u0101ori are connected to their wh\u0101nau, are connected to their culture, and that the CE is responsible for making sure that those disparities continue to decrease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI want to know about why this proposed repeal of section 7AA\u2014which the Minister has raised concerns about, particularly around those statutory duties of the chief executive to ensure that the policies and practices of the department\u2014the department being the regional offices of Oranga Tamariki\u2014and of any services and outsourcing for community providers and partnerships actually have the objective of reducing disparities of tamariki M\u0101ori. Because isn\u2019t that what we\u2019re here for: to make sure that all tamariki are treated with that safety, stability, and aroha? But having the lights off and just pretending that that doesn\u2019t happen, and ignoring that section 7AA actually has helped reduce those disparities, is doing a disservice\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00220cf8c9a604fa495682df1351042e9a73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cf8c9a604fa495682df1351042e9a73\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired. The time has come for me to leave the Chair. The committee will resume at 7.30 p.m. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002287d48c2ccc924b1b807c03f7fb7dd362\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287d48c2ccc924b1b807c03f7fb7dd362\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is resumed on the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill. When we suspended for the dinner break, we were debating Part 1. Once again, the question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00226191a852fecf4c4aaaeb1aced9400666\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226191a852fecf4c4aaaeb1aced9400666\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wish to stand to speak to the member Kahurangi Carter on Amendment Paper 241, set down by the member for the Greens. I appreciate the questions that were asked in regards to this amendment. I will not be supporting this amendment. The Social Services and Community Committee considered the reporting obligations imposed on the chief executive of Oranga Tamariki by section 7AA. These include an obligation to report on the impact of measures taken to reduce disparities for M\u0101ori. By majority, the committee was satisfied that there are sufficient mechanisms outside of section 7AA for reporting outcomes for tamariki and rangatahi M\u0101ori, produced by both Oranga Tamariki and the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor. The majority recommended no amendments to the provisions in the bill around reporting duties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to also include that there are other ways that this is reported upon. These include the annual report on outcomes for M\u0101ori children and young people and their wh\u0101nau; the state of Oranga Tamariki system report to be released at least once every three years, which requires an assessment of outcomes being achieved for M\u0101ori children, young people, and their wh\u0101nau; and the annual compliance report against the Oranga Tamariki (National Care Standards and Related Matters) Regulations 2018. These standards set the standard of care for all children in care, and achieving these is a priority for Oranga Tamariki. We also have several reports from Oranga Tamariki, including its annual report, which refers to measured performance against standards agreed as part of the annual appropriations, and its quarterly report, providing regular updates on progress towards ministerial priorities, its strategic direction, and key appropriation performance measures, among other matters. These reports publicly set out how the ministry is making a difference for children and young people and their families. We also have the annual Safety of Children in Care report, which publicly reviews and measures the findings of harm for M\u0101ori children and young people in care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ENow, in one of the questions or speeches prior to the dinner break, there was a comment made that we didn\u2019t listen to the submitters. I would like to just push back against that because I actually went away and I did listen to the submissions in regards to the reporting, and I asked Oranga Tamariki questions around what we report on and how many reports are made. There were multiple reports that reported on just this. I also asked what kind of resources it takes to do the report that the chief executive is obligated to do right now. The resources were around four fulltime-equivalents to get this report put together. I believe that those resources are better allocated elsewhere. We\u2019re actually putting the services in front of the young people rather than writing about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022dec217ea3167456c81034018600a0822\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dec217ea3167456c81034018600a0822\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for her response to questions on that, and I will come to that point, shortly, myself. But I do want to note that the questions that I had earlier haven\u2019t been answered yet, and that is right back at the beginning around section 7AA(2)(a). I was not asking about reporting; I was asking about the statutory obligations on the chief executive that are now being removed with the repeal of section 7AA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ETo come to the reporting, the Minister just then said that she has listened to the submissions and has come to the conclusion, based on what she had heard, to her satisfaction, that there were other reporting obligations and requirements in the Act, and, basically, that is a waste of money to spend it on four fulltime-equivalents (FTEs) to properly report against what is in this section. Essentially, what I was hearing is that she doesn\u2019t think it\u2019s justified to have four fulltime-equivalent positions to do this reporting, because the Minister doesn\u2019t believe that this reporting is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EBut the point I would like to make and to ask the Minister about is\u2014I\u2019m pleased to hear that you said that you listened to the submissions and read the advice and asked your officials for further advice on this, because what you would have seen in the report is that some of us consider that clause 10 of the bill should require the monitor to carry out the reporting that Oranga Tamariki itself would have done under the principal Act. Some of us also note that, following submissions from the public, advisers recommended the committee consider two prospective amendments to the bill to move both strategic partnerships and all the reporting requirements contained in section 7AA to other sections of the principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister said that she listened to the submissions, sought the advice, and then was satisfied with the advice that it wasn\u2019t necessary to do this. Now, the point I want to make to the Minister and to the committee is that what is there is not exactly what is being taken out. It is not like for like. It is not a complete replacement of that. So the Minister stood up here and gave us a big long answer of all the sorts of reporting that Oranga Tamariki is required to do\u2014and it sounds like a lot, and it is a lot, and it should be a lot\u2014but the point is that it is not what section 7AA required them to do. That is being lost now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EAfter the submissions, the advisers recommended that the reporting requirements, as they originally were, be continued. It was the choice of the majority, and for anybody listening in tonight, the code for majority is the Government, not the Opposition. So the Government members who make up the majority of the committee recommended that they were satisfied that some reporting was fine and you didn\u2019t need this actual reporting to be required in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b6683928f4444a2b8e4cc2837da697a\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Who voted against the strategic partnerships?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a3b821486f749f9af94f21c2e3ecd04\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. No, no, no. What are you talking about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022590a49869cfb4360bf204f54a8ec59ad\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Who voted against strategic partnerships in the committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c82b67b2bf8d4911859f72fd8948d69b\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Are they the same, Joseph? What is the point in having\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2cf1500df6d4eb59f2021d531b266fd\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Who voted against strategic partnerships at the select committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fe5680803b24b70bf88cab3b77e21e4\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair! What is the point of having a strategic\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225de2604bc9fe434582e2eb65e845cafe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Please call Joseph by both names.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c88c9954326c4f8b8d5765b14853a325\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mooney, chair of the select committee, what is the point of having a strategic partnership if there is no obligation, no responsibility, nothing in statute on the chief executive to actually achieve anything in terms of that? So let\u2019s just window-dress this. Let\u2019s just have a partnership for partnership\u2019s sake, but not actually say we\u2019re committed to reducing disparities and not actually say that we are committed to reporting on what was in section 7AA. No. \u201CWe\u2019re going to cherry-pick one of the recommendations.\u201D That\u2019s what the committee did and said, \u201CWe just recommend this within this limited scope of what we want strategic partnerships to do.\u201D Be under no illusion, I say to this committee, that that replacement that they have got in there, that retention of that one section\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00225214c4a0826b471f86ca4e81ab758045\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225214c4a0826b471f86ca4e81ab758045\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to the member for that, and I believe that that addresses some of the member\u2019s amendments that have been tabled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThe member\u2019s amendment that was tabled at 6 p.m. in regards to including outcomes for M\u0101ori children and young persons in section 7(2): \u201Cafter paragraph (g), insert \u2018(h) report annually on the impact of the chief executive\u2019s duties on the outcomes for children and young people, including M\u0101ori children and young persons, and the reduction of disparities.\u2019\u00A0\u201D\u2014I believe that I have answered already my reasons as to why I would not be supporting that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ETo the member\u2019s amendment tabled at 5.31 p.m., requesting that in clause 5, \u201CSection 7AA repealed\u201D, be replaced with \u201CSection 7AA\u201D, I would answer that by saying that the whole reason I\u2019m repealing this section is that I believe that it brings in a conflict when it comes to the chief executive actually making good decisions when it comes to the care and protection of our young people. This is the main reason why I\u2019m repealing the bill, and so I won\u2019t be supporting that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThe member\u2019s amendment tabled at 5.32 p.m., which says, \u201CClause 4A(1): Section 7(2)(h), after subparagraph (v), insert \u2018annually report on progress made to reduce disparities and improve outcomes for M\u0101ori children and young persons who come to the attention of the department\u2019\u00A0\u201D\u2014I believe I have already answered as to why I won\u2019t be supporting that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI think we need to also have a conversation about what we do expect to be the obligations for the chief executive of Oranga Tamariki. Part of why I\u2019ve brought this bill to the House is to make it very clear that the expectation on the chief executive of Oranga Tamariki is to get back to the core purpose of what Oranga Tamariki is there for. It is there to protect our children, and, yes, I do agree that there are some disparities for M\u0101ori children, but we need to get out of this idea that these children come to us in one piece, all whole, with no trauma. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EOranga Tamariki is the last line of defence for these young children. They have come here when everybody else has let them down. Everybody who is supposed to love them, care for them, and treat them with love and respect has not done that. Now, Oranga Tamariki is having to step in and pick up the pieces, and, as far as I\u2019m concerned, the main obligation on the chief executive is to make sure that that child is safe, that child has a roof over their head, that child is fed, that child is loved, and that child has every chance to grow up to be the best that they can be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThey are not to be seen just as only a certain colour or a certain race or from a certain background. They\u2019re to be seen as a child and we need to assess their real needs, which could be medical, which could be disabilities, or which could be all kinds of issues, and if we address those issues, we address the disparities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002222fd072d35374ed9b6dcd8839e0a043a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222fd072d35374ed9b6dcd8839e0a043a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to call Kahurangi Carter. I just wanted to make the point that this committee, while things that happen in select committee are part of the discussion, we don\u2019t have any intention\u2014or I don\u2019t have any intention\u2014of us relitigating what happened in the select committee process. It can be mentioned, but members are not to re-debate it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EAlso, I would just make the point that this is a very tense and emotional bill. We are looking for questions for the Minister, and I did notice that when the Minister was talking, we had several people who were having their own discussions and not listening to the answers. So I think that perhaps if we be a little respectful across the Chamber, we\u2019ll get a lot further, because this is something that does upset people, and we are not going to come to a decision tonight that everybody is going to like. So if we can just follow good process, and I was going to call Kahurangi Carter\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a760ffe2c4a746c89cbfb936c683673d\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Just on a point of order, Madam Chairperson, if I may. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288e9e5ddbbd147c98c626a1723a34b64\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a point of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022125f5cd39427411f9f395d756c68f170\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Just a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cdd61dd36784a5c99b1af8747ac2378\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u00223c0f6a33a4234953a6a6b76ca422b397\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c0f6a33a4234953a6a6b76ca422b397\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Matarau\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you. I hear it\u2014I hear the direction from the Chair, Madam Chair. The point about it being very emotional, I get that too, but we\u2019re talking about M\u0101ori children, and there are only very few M\u0101ori in here that can actually relate and understand that single, fundamental issue. So my colleagues\u2014these two on the side here\u2014think that they can discuss it up, like white men often do, because they come at it like it\u2019s a white man talking to a M\u0101ori woman about M\u0101ori children. That\u2019s the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224238a7f83e574c8caca537b264e064c4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Look at who\u2019s the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dbeb45cc8d9489f9267e54cb36496f1\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m speaking to no one else but Madam Chair, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c34d5581eba34515883ce6e760f3cb4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c34d5581eba34515883ce6e760f3cb4e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that point of order. I was just going to make a statement on that point of order. I do understand, actually, the very point that people are wanting to make points from their different perspectives, and I\u2019m trying to make sure that we\u2019re not attacking each other through this. It\u2019s always going to be a little difficult\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022896493f914bb401cb0ee2db528b5f0b3\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Can I speak to the point of order again, Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022069f1193ca484059a41fe4a5120dc5a0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I think I had someone else who wanted to speak to that point of order first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u00227643564ba8144d49a6c148d93006352b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227643564ba8144d49a6c148d93006352b\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Just to point out that that\u2019s actually highly insulting, to be calling race into question in that point of order. Plus, we\u2019re actually discussing the welfare of all children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022d314e12a306e4f5ea99298aa562818eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d314e12a306e4f5ea99298aa562818eb\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Matarau\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227235b218ae354dc582065bcbc60011b6\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250467ea06402420bb84b1f81c7df1ab6\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s hardly a point of order. It\u2019s preposterous\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4e85705337c48e1adb0fd37a8c779b4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Quiet during\u2014excuse me, the member is speaking to the point of order. Can we, please, have silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af0507590aaa4e76bff2eaba68a14119\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: In that regard, it is as preposterous as thinking that any man can talk about what is best for women. And every woman in this Chamber right now will understand exactly what I\u2019m talking about. So when the two on my left think that they can tell me, as a M\u0101ori woman, what is best for M\u0101ori children, they will always be wrong and out-ruled, as such. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dde1c02b94c446a68046aeb2f0c1f22b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dde1c02b94c446a68046aeb2f0c1f22b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019m asking for, in terms of this debate, given that we\u2019re not going to agree, is respect across the committee. I understand it\u2019s emotional. Just let\u2019s not beat each other up through this process. We\u2019re going to get to a place that we\u2019re not going to agree on, but the point of this is actually to ask the Minister questions, not to beat each other up as a Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u0022247917a4641649a886109dbfabc3316c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022247917a4641649a886109dbfabc3316c\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So I\u2019m speaking to clause 4A(1AAA) which is part of my Amendment Paper 241\u2014and I do ask again whether the Minister for Children will accept this\u2014because I want to talk in response to a few things that the Minister has talked about in her answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESo the Minister outlined the reporting that is required of Oranga Tamariki, the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor, and other bodies, none of which are enshrined in legislation\u2014none. We know that our laws have to reflect the country that we want. The Minister has said that she wants our tamariki to be safe, and to have stability, and to have everything that they need to thrive. When we\u2019re talking about reporting annually or reporting quarterly, it really ignores the everyday day-to-day operations that are going on, the everyday care that we have for tamariki, and the need for the chief executive (CE) to be responsive to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESo, for example, the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor brought out a scathing report just a few weeks ago. So, naturally, what will happen at Oranga Tamariki and other bodies will be that there will be changes to processes and policy. What\u2019s really important is that the CE has a legal obligation under our law to actually respond to those discrepancies that happen for tamariki M\u0101ori, which were outlined clearly in that report. By saying, \u201CNo, we don\u2019t need to have that law in there for reporting.\u201D, it takes away that real opportunity to have the CE have an overall view of what happens for these tamariki, because that report showed us that these tamariki aren\u2019t getting educated, they\u2019re not enrolled with a GP. There are so many things that are happening that really need us to take seriously that what is reported is what is addressed. By only doing that annually or in these quarterly reports, it really takes away from the importance of the CE having it in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI want to respond also to the Minister talking about the four fulltime-equivalents (FTEs). Now, we know that about 600 jobs have been cut from Oranga Tamariki under the Minister\u2019s watch, and that\u2019s leaving us with about 419 less people working at Oranga Tamariki. So it feels ingenuine that the Minister is saying that four FTEs is a really big deal when over 400 jobs have been lost at Oranga Tamariki. So if we really are serious about providing safety, stability, and that being paramount here, then let\u2019s enshrine it in law. Let\u2019s make sure that the CE is reporting on those disparities. Even the Minister herself has just said and accepted that there are disparities for tamariki M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI just want to go to Dr Luke Fitzmaurice-Brown\u2019s select committee submission. Now, Dr Luke is a lecturer at the law facility at Te Herenga Waka Victoria University of Wellington with expertise in child protection and Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and completed their PhD on the topic of decolonising child protection in 2022. Now, in part of his submission, he stated, \u201CThe stated purpose of this Bill is to ensure that the safety and wellbeing of children in care is paramount. Overall, as I\u2019m sure my submission makes clear, this misconstrues how the law operates, as section 7AA in no way undermines safety and wellbeing.\u201D He adds, \u201CI oppose this repeal.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESo I ask the Minister again to please reconsider my Amendment Paper 241 because we\u2019ve worked really hard to listen to what the Minister wants from this bill and this amendment will go a long way to achieving the purpose. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022e35ad58876b94313a17e015ac5ef454c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e35ad58876b94313a17e015ac5ef454c\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This will be the last time I answer to this question because I\u2019ve answered it multiple times. But what I will say is that Independent Children\u2019s Monitor (ICM) reports are a statutory obligation. The power for the ICM to require the information from Oranga Tamariki is a statutory obligation, and the chief executive has a legislative obligation to respond to the ICM and the ICM reports on these issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThe other area is around the standards. When I talk about M\u0101ori having disparities within Oranga Tamariki, we know we have a high level of M\u0101ori children that come to the attention of Oranga Tamariki. What happens before they come to the attention of Oranga Tamariki is the responsibility of not just Government but society and multiple agencies to get involved before they get to the point where they end up in Oranga Tamariki. But when they do, we need to make sure that we are meeting the standards for these young children\u2014and we know we\u2019re not. And that needs to be the focus for all children within Oranga Tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ENow, Oranga Tamariki has an obligation in many places to report on multiple things, and the National Care Standards are one of them. They have a legal obligation to report on the National Care Standards. There\u2019s around 80 of these National Care Standards to make sure that we are meeting them. What I want to do is focus on making sure that we are assessing all these children for what they need, and, when they have those needs, that we\u2019re meeting them. Oranga Tamariki needs to get that focus back, and this is the intention of this bill: get back to the core purpose of Oranga Tamariki, which is to make sure that we have the care and protection in place for these children, and also making sure that we are getting young people who come to our attention in front of the right people. That\u2019s what these strategic partnerships and enabling community programmes are about: they are about making sure that we are putting these young people in front of the right people who can meet their needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI take the point of the chair of the Social Services and Community Committee, pointing out that the one thing that the submitters really did want to keep was those partnership and enabling community programmes. And the very party that\u2019s supposed to be fighting for that voted against it, which I really can\u2019t understand\u2014why a party that wants things done for M\u0101ori would vote against the strategic partnerships for M\u0101ori and the enabling communities for M\u0101ori staying within the bill. I mean, that\u2019s where we listened to what the submitters were saying and what they wanted, and we agreed to those changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ESo I think we need to be very careful with accusing people of nitpicking at little bits and pieces because, honestly, for the party that talks about wanting to do things for M\u0101ori to vote against one of the biggest things that they asked for is actually quite disappointing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00221b783470140e4f4e8b7de9e4173b9fbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b783470140e4f4e8b7de9e4173b9fbb\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. To the Minister for Children\u2019s contribution just then, then what\u2019s the point of throwing the baby out with the bath water? If the Minister is prepared to sit there and accuse members, in particular in the Opposition, of cherry-picking matters within the bill that we choose to support\u2014we\u2019ve raised this from the start of this Government\u2019s plan with regard to section 7AA, about throwing the baby out with the bath water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019m going to leave that there, and I want to bring the attention of the committee and the Minister to a number of questions that I have with respect to clause 4A, \u201CSection 7 amended (Duties of chief executive)\u201D, and I want to touch on two key points here. One, it says there, in in the proposal of the bill, \u201Cpartnerships with iwi and M\u0101ori organisations\u201D, and then it says, \u201Cincluding iwi authorities\u201D, as if to differentiate between an iwi authority and an iwi. This begs the question that I have for the Minister and the officials here who support her: the definition of iwi. What does that mean for those who are\u2014if the definition is what I suspect it will be with respect to settlements\u2014yet to settle, for those who present, whether it be through resource management and other matters, to be representative of iwi? Just a little bit of guidance there from the Minister on that particular matter. It is a broad term, and the Minister\u2019s that committed to making sure she gets it right. We want to make sure that in her working with others in this most important sector, she\u2019s working with the right people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThen I come down to the third point there: \u201Cenable the robust, regular, and genuine exchange of information between department and those organisations\u201D. I wonder if the Minister is of a mind to extend the definition of \u201Cinformation\u201D to include \u201Cclear data\u201D. There have been a number of challenges to this Government, and previous Governments, to be fair, about what data set to share, the protection of data, how crucial that data is to make informed decisions, and to make sure that they\u2019re able to support the people that they\u2019re there to support. The term in this particular bill says, \u201Cinformation\u201D. I wonder if the Minister has considered, or if the advisers have given her any advice about, making that far more explicit in saying \u201Cclear data sets\u201D, or is this just a broad sweep for information that the department is willing to share and has the discretion of doing so? That\u2019s of huge concern. If you\u2019re entering into a strategic partnership, you want to make sure that they\u2019ve got the information, they\u2019ve got the data, they\u2019ve got all the things to make sure that this is a successful strategic partnership and not one still simply run by the department, which continues and has continued over many years to let communities down, wh\u0101nau down, tamariki down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo just two clearer points for the Minister: one is around iwi; the other one is around the expression of information and whether or not that extends into data. I think those are two important questions that the Minister can help us to understand the broader aspect of the plan that she\u2019s tried to describe in her contributions, not just in this particular committee of the whole House but throughout the whole passage of this entire bill. So I\u2019ll leave those questions on the table for the Minister\u2019s consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u002261c9aff4c2524109b03bfc7b67d72db1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261c9aff4c2524109b03bfc7b67d72db1\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. Just to start with this context, I worked in Child, Youth and Family Services\u2014which was called CYFs back then\u2014in 1989 and 1990. I registered as one of the first family group conference coordinators and was a care and protection social worker and youth justice social worker, so all of what we\u2019re discussing now, there are probably very few in the House that understand it like I do. So when I\u2019m running this line and when I\u2019m talking the way I\u2019m talking, it\u2019s not because I\u2019m talking through a hole in my head; it\u2019s because I\u2019m smart and experienced. And I\u2019ve been a M\u0101ori for a while, so I can talk to those things with clarity and I\u2019m not traumatised by it. I\u2019m not traumatised by it. All right? So I want to put that context there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EI want to follow up also just in support of some of the questions that have already been placed to the Minister for Children. I am curious to understand, when you\u2019re benefiting from M\u0101ori organisations or iwi and you love all that M\u0101ori k\u014Drero, those kupu, but you won\u2019t treat and acknowledge mokopuna as tapu, and you won\u2019t because you can\u2019t understand\u2014well, actually, let me just ask you if you understand te tapu o te mokopuna [the sanctity of the grandchild]. I\u2019d really be interested to know what you understand and how you can articulate that in the context of this bill. If you can do that, that might be really useful for me to understand and, well, fathom where this is at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThese are important questions because the core of this is about mokopuna, their tapu, their whakapapa, and their whanaungatanga, despite the fact, Minister, that you yourself might not recognise it in you, therefore\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4e92ee329db424c8fcc4f38ec8d4efa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: This is actually a Government bill, so let\u2019s not make personal attacks on the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb2c30c060bd444785662071dfe32c99\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: It is a Government bill. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I do get that, but it is held tightly by a Minister who at times has borrowed her whakapapa and nearly held it up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e4b863716e840dbbade0724227141aa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No. No. Stop\u2014stop! I\u2019m not going to wait for the point of order. Can we please go back to the piece of legislation and not focus on the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022490cdb0d98d445078528a0ed38076c9b\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: You know what, Madam Speaker\u2014see, that\u2019s the missing piece that is completely misunderstood or the huge gap of knowledge on the other side of the House. You cannot separate those things. You cannot separate them. So that\u2019s why, when I\u2019m standing up to be this and talk like this, it\u2019s not because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa2fe89c9f31412e86290552b3d93d6f\u0022\u003ELaura McClure\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b70f820de13b409f87808913b6b9e551\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m still talking so I\u2019m going to keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f83e18f38d64ea199dd44e898bddc3b\u0022\u003ELaura McClure\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I want to take some relevance on the previous member. If we could just stick back to the bill. I believe she\u2019s completely irrelevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ae8b59e14d5499b8b0c9ebf886b23ed\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. I\u2019m watching for the questions and I\u2019m just waiting for some answers, but I am concerned we\u2019re going back to where we were about 15 minutes ago, where we\u2019re starting to actually point the finger at each other and move away from the legislation. So I would like this to move clearly to questions to the Minister, not comments about the Minister, because actually this is a Government bill and the Government is totally responsible for the fact that this bill is in front of the House today. So can we please focus on the piece of legislation and can we please focus on questions. I know it\u2019s hard; it\u2019s very narrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229412f6a0d7b84db8911cf8c5ea14ad53\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Thank you for clapping. I would like the Minister to respond to my question on her work to work with iwi and how that will occur. I\u2019d be interested to hear that, particularly Ng\u0101puhi iwi, because, of course, there are far too many people in State care, Ng\u0101puhi people. So I\u2019m interested to hear what her response might be to that. Ng\u0101puhi\u2014yeah, that\u2019s a big one for us. I\u2019ll just sit there for now and see what else I can come up with in the next minute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002240993f30fe5648a48272cb415f0c6c14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240993f30fe5648a48272cb415f0c6c14\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d just like to take a moment to respond to the Hon Peeni Henare around section 7, which will be maintained within the Act, and around the wording regarding iwi authorities and data. The wording will stay exactly the same. The wording is not changing within that section, and it will stay the same as in the current Act, the interpretation developing over time in the normal way. But what I would say is that when it comes to data, I hear that everywhere I go around New Zealand and when I\u2019m visiting the strategic partners and the people with their enabling communities, that is something that has been a real problem for a very long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ESo we are running pilots at the moment, around how we can share that data in a more open way and be a bit more transparent. I have set my expectations that Oranga Tamariki make sure that we are making those connections, and with those connections should come the data\u2014that has been something that I\u2019ve been very passionate about. And making sure that we can do that in a safe way and work together with iwi and hap\u016B to make sure that they know where the children are so that they can step in and help and do what\u2019s needed. So I appreciate that question, and we\u2019re working on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00223905eee21ac9472e82d67d6b45b26dcd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223905eee21ac9472e82d67d6b45b26dcd\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to start my questions in response to the Minister for Children\u2019s statement. She said that the one thing, or the main thing, that submitters wanted was to keep strategic partnerships. The Minister should be careful with the words that she chooses to use, because that mischaracterises what the submitters were actually asking for. To be very, very clear, many of the submitters were asking to stop entirely the repeal of section 7AA. They also asked to retain the requirement on the CEO to ensure that the policies and practices are to reduce disparities for tamariki M\u0101ori. They also asked for the reporting requirements to remain. So, no, they didn\u2019t only ask for strategic partnerships. They asked to keep Te Tiriti. They asked to keep the entire section 7AA. They asked to keep strategic partnerships. They asked to keep the reporting. So to say that was the one thing and then the Labour Party\u2014who purports to represent this, that, and the other thing\u2014vote against it, like we are the bad guys and letting these submitters down, is not a reflection of what actually happened in the committee and the submissions made by the submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow my question to the Minister, because I see that she really wanted to dismiss my proposed amendments, move past them really quickly, and say that they have been addressed\u2014I don\u2019t believe they have been addressed, because what I need the Minister to confirm for me is they cannot be addressed because they are not like for like. So the big, long list that she ran off about the reporting requirements of Oranga Tamariki; I need to understand from the Minister whether she agrees and acknowledges that what she has listed in response to my proposed amendments around reporting\u2014just to remind everybody what those are, the annual report on progress made to reduce disparities and improve outcomes for M\u0101ori children and young persons who come to the attention of the department\u2014has not been addressed by her answer. Those things she listed do not do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, if the Minister read the departmental report, on page 20, the official said, \u201CThere are no other provisions in the Act that provide for \u2026 public mandatory\u201D\u2014mandatory; this is a keyword, \u201Cmandatory\u201D\u2014\u201Creporting on measures taken to reduce disparities for M\u0101ori children and young people in state care.\u201D And on the basis of that conclusion that officials came to, they recommended on pages 21 and 22 that \u201Cclauses equivalent to subsections 7AA(5) and 7AA(6) regarding reporting duties of the chief executive in the other parts of the ACT.\u201D be inserted. So it wasn\u2019t just strategic partnerships; the officials also recommended these reporting requirements. Why? Because nowhere else in the Act is it mandatory for anybody\u2014the Children\u2019s Monitor, Oranga Tamariki themselves, the Children\u2019s Commissioner, nobody\u2014to do what has been taken out today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo can the Minister please confirm for me that it is in fact the case that with the repeal of this legislation, there will not be a replacement for this, that this monitoring and reporting function is not in fact being done in those other reports that she has spoken to this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u002252ff04f24a7245c687ccdef548d9e518\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252ff04f24a7245c687ccdef548d9e518\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I just want to go through a couple of points with the Minister on this. Just in terms of the reporting, can the Minister confirm that Oranga Tamariki regularly prepares and releases a number of reports, including its annual report; its quarterly report, which is an overview of progress scores and strategic directions; and the Safety of Children in Care annual report, another one reporting on findings of harm for young people in care. Under section 448B of the Oranga Tamariki Act, the Minister for Children is required to report to Parliament, in addition, every three years on whether legislation and Government policy meet the needs of children and young people. In addition to that, the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor must prepare annual reports on compliance with national care standards and regulations, and outcomes for M\u0101ori children, young people, and their wh\u0101nau, and the chief executive of Oranga Tamariki must prepare a written response to any report produced by the monitor in relation to Oranga Tamariki. The monitor can request any information that it deems relevant, which the chief executive must provide. Can the Minister confirm that all of those reports remain in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ENow, the next thing I want to ask is around strategic partnerships. Can the Minister confirm the original bill was repealing section 7AA in its entirety? Concerns were raised by a number of submitters. The Waitangi Tribunal also recommended that the requirements in section 7AA to develop strategic partnerships with iwi and M\u0101ori organisations be retained. Can the Minister confirm that there\u2019s been an amendment, following the select committee process, to retain that aspect of section 7AA to develop strategic partnerships with iwi and M\u0101ori organisations, including iwi authorities, noting that those were still going to be available but now have been specifically retained in the legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EClause 4A amending section 7 includes things like: \u201C(i) provide opportunities to, and invite innovative proposals from, those organisations to improve outcomes for M\u0101ori children, young persons, and their wh\u0101nau who come to the attention of the department: (ii) set expectations and targets to improve outcomes for M\u0101ori children and young persons who come to the attention of the department: (iii) enable the robust, regular, and genuine exchange of information between the department and those organisations: [and] (iv) provide opportunities for the chief executive to delegate functions under this Act or regulations \u2026 to appropriately qualified people within those organisations:\u201D\u2014and, just to clarify, those are iwi and M\u0101ori organisations, including iwi authorities. Those concerns that were raised around strategic partnerships\u2014can the Minister confirm that those have been specifically addressed and are now being retained in the legislation, to address those concerns that were raised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EJust one other, final point: can the Minister confirm that the purposes section, section 4, of the Oranga Tamariki Act has not been changed, was never going to be changed, and includes things such as \u201C(1) The purposes of this Act are to promote the well-being of children, young persons, and their families, wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and family groups by\u2014(a) establishing, promoting, or co-ordinating services that are designed to affirm mana tamaiti (tamariki), are centred on children\u2019s and young persons\u2019 rights, promote their best interests, advance their well-being, address their needs, and provide for their participation in decision making that affects them:\u201D and \u201C(iii) are culturally appropriate and competently provided:\u201D and go on to \u201C(d) assisting families and wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and family groups, at the earliest opportunity, to fulfil their responsibility to meet the needs of their children and young persons (including their developmental needs, and the need for a safe, stable, and loving home):\u201D, \u201C(g) recognizing mana tamiti (tamariki), whakapapa, and the practice of whanaungatanga for children and young persons who come to the attention of the department:\u201D, \u201C(h) maintaining and strengthening the relationship between children and young persons who come to the attention of the department and their\u2014(i) family, wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and family group; and (ii) siblings:\u201D and \u201C(i) responding to alleged offending and offending by children and young persons in a way that\u2014(i) promotes their rights and best interests and acknowledges their needs;\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ECan the Minister confirm that all of these purposes, which are specifically spelled out in section 4 of the Oranga Tamariki Act, have never changed, were never going to change, and are being retained in the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022e669012a94064e389fbe959cc68b039f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e669012a94064e389fbe959cc68b039f\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I can confirm that all of those things are within the Act and they will not change. The Act already has provisions that protect the rights of wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi. There is section 4(1)(g), section 5(1)(b)\u2014and another part of section 5(1)(b)\u20145(1)(c), and 13(2)(b). All have protections for wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi within the legislation. My point, which I will repeat again is: if we are taking care of the real, assessed needs of these young people that come to the attention of Oranga Tamariki and we put them in front of the right things that they need at that time through a proper assessment process across multiple agencies who have a role to play with these young people, we will address those disparities, because we will have M\u0101ori children that don\u2019t have a GP. But we will also have non-M\u0101ori children that don\u2019t have a GP. We will have non-M\u0101ori children that don\u2019t go to school. We will also have M\u0101ori children that don\u2019t go to school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThese children do not come to Oranga Tamariki for no reason. Oranga Tamariki is the last line of defence for these children. They have been let down by everybody who is supposed to love and care for them, and, now, Oranga Tamariki, a Government organisation, is having to take care of these young people and take care of their needs that are often caused by the very people that are supposed to love and care for them. Sometimes, we need to listen to the voice of the children, too, not just all the adults in the organisations trying to make decisions for them. What if a young person doesn\u2019t want a M\u0101ori approach? What if a young person wants a different approach? We need to create the options so that if they do want that, they can, but we are not going to be forcing young people to do anything. We need to listen to their voices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf8f7aa2cf7144dbb7ffd57567f7a80c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf8f7aa2cf7144dbb7ffd57567f7a80c\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dd99f896f340410396270988fa4c3918\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223acef345cda94bc8b77df05816977672\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223acef345cda94bc8b77df05816977672\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I will remind members that we will have silence during voting, thank you. I did hear some comments. I\u2019m not going to make anything of it right now, but we\u2019ve got a few votes to go through and we\u2019ll take those in silence, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that Kahurangi Carter\u2019s amendment to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 240 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e3ba6f381cb44d19b43e3443f89c9361\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002294e7dada338b478fb2b9c4c2dbfc7259\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294e7dada338b478fb2b9c4c2dbfc7259\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Kahurangi Carter\u2019s amendment to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 241 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d16a05c69025415db82be03bbd802eba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022435d1c61db1b462aafd49d86fd2502c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022435d1c61db1b462aafd49d86fd2502c3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Kahurangi Carter\u2019s amendment to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 242 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002216e09182bb474096a97733677c8e3725\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221371cbbb314f473bafb60d9e3a5bd970\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221371cbbb314f473bafb60d9e3a5bd970\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Willow-Jean Prime\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4A inserting new subclauses (1AA) and (1AB) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226e252a417cd840dbb6c12c4cd19e6df6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbcd94aadcd343899d8455e73e21895f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbcd94aadcd343899d8455e73e21895f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Willow-Jean Prime\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4A(1) inserting new subparagraph (vii) into section 7(2)(h) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022050a61e804c44d1a8397818a52a53431\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022228e45165a274da98bf06caeab628185\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022228e45165a274da98bf06caeab628185\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Willow-Jean Prime\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting section 7AA is out of order as being contrary to the objects and principles of the bill. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022149c1826a4e6440cbe0e54f2c201bb56\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ecd4c119d65b45f29579089c8a15cc55\u0022\u003EPart 2  Consequential amendments to other legislation \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229376392d5ed247f689f1809456b649a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229376392d5ed247f689f1809456b649a1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 6 to 11, \u201CConsequential amendments to other legislation\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc8b5ddee3c74dc6a286ef4a10b16367\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc8b5ddee3c74dc6a286ef4a10b16367\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to ask the Minister for Children questions specifically about clause 7, which says, \u201CSection 24 amended (Annual report on outcomes for M\u0101ori children and young people and their wh\u0101nau)\u201D, that that section be replaced with these words: \u201CWhen preparing the report, the Monitor must consider and be informed by any information obtained in accordance with this Act.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: is it correct that that information will no longer be any reports that were published under section 7AA(5) of the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989? Oh, no answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221beba28723f54c95a594e245b34b2b4b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Willow-Jean Prime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d3fa2e8685543848f40130107d2a864\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. The reason I ask that question is because, as we were debating earlier, the point is that what the list that was read out from the other side of the Chamber\u2014the things that the Minister referred to\u2014what they were referring to is not the same as what is being taken out of the legislation. To tell the public; to tell this committee, \u201CIt\u2019s OK, There\u2019s all sorts of other reporting that Oranga Tamariki and the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor and others are still required to do.\u201D; the point is that none of them are required to report on the things that section 7AA reported on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo is it correct, Minister, that there will no longer be provided to the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor, who does the oversight of Oranga Tamariki, any reports published under section 7AA(5) of the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989? And which, of all of those reports that she has listed in her previous answers, is going to replace the information that the monitor would have been required by law to receive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo this is the issue: it was mandatory reporting before, and now there is no mandatory requirement for that. There is nothing to require Oranga Tamariki to give that same information to the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor. So can the Minister please tell us exactly which reports, which information, which part of the section of any of the pieces of legislation is going to require Oranga Tamariki to give exactly that information to the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor so that we can get accurate reports on what Oranga Tamariki are doing in terms of their policies, their practices, and their strategic partnerships to reduce disparities for tamariki M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00226e8eedaea9c34483982f828504132922\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e8eedaea9c34483982f828504132922\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I will repeat this one last time: this amendment removes references to section 7AA but retains the requirement to report on outcomes for M\u0101ori children, young people, wh\u0101nau, and, especially, improving outcomes for these children through the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor annual report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u002239211a72068d49ad85e2b8715e5c5b36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239211a72068d49ad85e2b8715e5c5b36\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I am sick and tired of being an angry M\u0101ori wahine, but I am an angry M\u0101ori wahine, and the repeal of section 7AA is cause for anger. It is also cause for deep sadness and talks to the intergenerational trauma and pain that this Parliament has inflicted on tamariki M\u0101ori. It was actually the National Party who brought in section 7AA because they saw the outcry of New Zealanders when it came out that newborn M\u0101ori tamariki were being taken, ripped, from their mothers\u2019 arms without due cause. This was happening just a few years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWhen we brought in section 7AA\u2014when the National Party brought in section 7AA\u2014it was a part of helping heal that intergenerational trauma, and since that has come in, there has been an improvement with less tamariki M\u0101ori in State care, because there was a focus on reducing the disparities. Now, Dr Luke Fitzmaurice-Brown said the decision to repeal section 7AA is one of several recent actions which ignore, diminish, or directly breach te Tiriti. These include the decisions to disestablish Te Aka Whai Ora, the removal of Treaty provisions in the Corrections Amendment Bill, Government directives relating to te reo M\u0101ori, the planned introduction of the Treaty principles bill, and many others. We cannot look at this in isolation. We have to look at this as a bigger picture of what is happening to tamariki M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI want to talk to Part 2, clause 8, which replaces section 57(1)(e)(i). My Amendment Paper 242 replaces new section 57(1)(e)(i) to include direct reference to section 7(1)(c) and (2)(baa), (c)(i), (g), (ga), (h), and (i). And the purpose of this amendment is to ensure that earlier changes related to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, measurable outcomes, and public reporting are fully integrated and operational throughout the entire Oranga Tamariki Act. We cannot remove Te Tiriti o Waitangi from the Oranga Tamariki Act when two-thirds of tamariki in care are tamariki M\u0101ori. By referencing section 7(1)(c) and (2)(baa), (ga), (h), and (i), it ensures that the oversight system consistently upholds these key principles and requirements, providing a cohesive framework for accountability and transparency across the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI am asking the Minister to please listen to the people who are experts in this field, to the people with lived experience, to the tamariki who came to select committee and poured their hearts out, the tamariki with experience of having the State as a parent, a State who is supposed to fill that gap when, as you say, they haven\u2019t been shown that love in their life and who failed miserably. And they asked you, Minister\u2014they asked you\u2014to listen to them and to keep 7AA. I understand that it is your belief that 7AA is not being operationalised correctly, but this is your opportunity to listen to those tamariki and to make sure that we, as the Government, are accountable to them and to all the tamariki in every future generation after so that this generational trauma that has been inflicted by the State can have some healing. Please consider my Amendment Paper 242.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee49204483e144ef9b0c9358f6f36b08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee49204483e144ef9b0c9358f6f36b08\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I wholeheartedly agree. I stand here sick of being an angry M\u0101ori too. I get sick of seeing an organisation making the wrong decisions because they\u2019re not putting the safety and the wellbeing of our children first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be79e5779a10486db0a964db8629ce36\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: You have no evidence of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220665974bb20a428fa2708730bf47eb09\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I have no evidence of that. OK, I\u2019ll read you some evidence that came through the select committee. Caregivers shared experiences of having a child being removed from their care to be placed with wh\u0101nau, or Oranga Tamariki attempting to remove the child from their care. They submitted that in their experience, their best interests were not prioritised. One caregiver shared that in order to keep a child in their long-term care, they had to seek legal support. They raised practice concerns, including about a former social worker and a supervisor who prioritised placing the child with wh\u0101nau, and, by the site\u2019s own admission, were so set on sticking to 7AA that they failed to look at the child\u2019s best interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EA second caregiver spoke of their experience with providing emergency placements for children while more long-term placement arrangements were being sought. The submitter shared one case where a child was moved from their emergency care to live with wh\u0101nau, which had ended with the child being harmed by another member of the wh\u0101nau. This submitter also shared that in their direct experience with three other placements, the focus by social workers on wh\u0101nau placement had meant the children were moved between placement several times where wh\u0101nau placements fell through, sometimes in a matter of weeks or within matters of months. A third caregiver shared that when section 7AA came into place, they were told that tamariki M\u0101ori in their permanent care were no longer arraigned with them because they were P\u0101keh\u0101 and he was M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ENow, I do not expect that Oranga Tamariki would have been able to say that section 7AA had resulted in poor practice decisions. It\u2019s not like a social worker is going to record a case note saying, \u201CI\u2019m removing this child from a safe, stable home because 7AA tells me to do so.\u201D I refer to paragraph 48 of the regulatory impact statement, which states, \u201CThere have been examples of decisions where the safety and stability of children was compromised.\u201D While the regulatory impact statement notes that these cases appear to be the result of poor practice decisions rather than section 7AA, I would contend that it is legislation which drives the culture and the practice. And 7AA created a conflict for social workers between safety and liability on one hand, and cultural considerations on the other. This bill removes the conflict and makes it clear that the wellbeing and best interests of the child is a paramount consideration. I will quote from the initial advice I received from officials regarding the repeal of section 7AA, saying, \u201Cwe acknowledge that there have been times where social workers may have used Section 7AA to justify decision making in relation to care arrangements for M\u0101ori children which may not have been safe or in their best interests.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a889c8943aba4474950762fbfe50bf57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a889c8943aba4474950762fbfe50bf57\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair. I rise as a bit of a grumpy P\u0101keh\u0101, actually, just looking what is going on in this place this evening. I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s a debate\u2014I don\u2019t even know if it\u2019s contest of ideas, but I want to look at clause 11\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef8c847a1c4419eb8a666d31afc83d5\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: From your side it isn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d4210d99fb44a11ace4a3994f4b865e\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I hear it\u2019s from our side, but I completely disagree with that in terms of what has been coming from the Minister\u2019s chair. But what I want to ask about is in clause 11, \u201CRegulation 8\u201D where it says in the new paragraphs (a) and (b) \u201Can assessment of the outcomes being achieved by the chief executive of Oranga Tamariki for M\u0101ori children and young people, and their wh\u0101nau\u201D, and then it goes on. I\u2019ll talk about paragraph (b) shortly, but my question to the Minister is: the Minister has made it very clear throughout the whole debate that the Minister doesn\u2019t believe that decisions should be based on race. Therefore, my question to the Minister is: why has the Minister allowed it to continue to be in this legislation? Obviously, from her perspective, is this not race that we\u2019re talking about here, or do you have a different opinion on that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo the question to the Minister is: is clause 11, inserting new paragraphs (a) (b)\u2014are they decisions based on race, or are they decisions based on responsibility, which I believe is what it is all about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6d0498e958648cfa1888605ef872fb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6d0498e958648cfa1888605ef872fb0\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe, e te Pika, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Greetings to the Speaker, and greetings to all in the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThis is my first opportunity speaking to this whole kaupapa around section 7AA so I\u2019m going to tread really lightly to make sure I don\u2019t\u2014phew! I\u2019m just coming to Part 2, section 27, around amended annual report on outcomes for M\u0101ori children and young\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0d2792680aa49d88e9f81b2abbd18d0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, could the member just clarify Part 2\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ac442ea3bda41e7900f05254f723deb\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Part 2, clause 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022593064f346f342e19d62faa81ce9ee9f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, clause 7. Sorry, I thought you said 27. I was trying to find it, sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278bc36db454048e98b144d9fa07f392f\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s OK. Part 2, clause 7 and then section\u2014oh my God, so many numbers. But anyways, you get my drift. \u201CSection 24 amended (Annual report on outcomes for M\u0101ori children and young people and their wh\u0101nau)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI also just want to note that I did want to have an opportunity but I didn\u2019t get called in Part 1, 4A, after section 7(2)(g) of the principal Act but I wasn\u2019t called. So there may be some references that I\u2019ll still intertwine into the Part 2 clause that I will talk about because I wasn\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022672cb7c6d4864e4e8aca731d0c0efcd8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: You can refer to it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022238857c431a8442091b4f4275d72564f\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Refer to it, yep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dd440218cbf47a3be9e411457c9d7ba\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: But make sure that your question is related to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bb6adaa83d24c3f8b097404efe1d0e4\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Related to the question. Yep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a53cc4ae51124bb7b6f2c6f9f357800f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0766918efe34dd2be64eee44ff83c74\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Yep. Ka pai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ESo my question is around an annual report on outcomes for M\u0101ori children and young people and their wh\u0101nau. One of those relates to the post-settlement governance entities (PSGEs) that we have in my rohe of Hauraki-Waikato and them having a wh\u0101nau-based approach in their reporting and the way that they work with their tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThat is because we have a post-settlement iwi under the Treaty settlement\u2014we\u2019re coming up to our 30-year this year post-settled. That is with Waikato-Tainui and that kaupapa is Mokopuna Ora. Mokopouna Ora\u2014if I just get out my phone and reference: in 2020 to 2021, Mokopuna Ora successfully improved the wellbeing outcomes for 94 Waikato wh\u0101nau, with reports of concern for 260 mokopuna. An overwhelming majority\u201499 percent\u2014of those cases had their\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dd0bf1a472d4578b7c595cba240c49a\u0022\u003ELaura McClure\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s great. They can still do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022971616a392894464a925543a1badfc67\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Laura, it\u2019s not your time\u201499 percent of cases had their care and protections concerns addressed with solutions informed by wh\u0101nau-led processes, of which 70 wh\u0101nau and 203 mokopuna successfully exited the Oranga Tamariki system completely\u2014completely. This was one of our King\u2019s last kaupapa and projects that he ran, and I will make sure that I\u2019ll bring this into the committee and put it on the Hansard that this was a successful outcome that was brought in not just by wh\u0101nau, but PSGEs\u2014post-settlement iwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI think of my other iwi like Ng\u0101puhi, who haven\u2019t had the opportunity to settle yet, and what will those relationships be like? Because when we put the overall blanket name of \u201Ciwi\u201D, that can mean many different things. Is that PSGEs? Is that iwi? Is that wh\u0101nau? Is that hap\u016B? That\u2019s a blanket name approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220311f28995664f2c9910ba3ab3c245ac\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: M\u0101ori organisations as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276cf72ac9e02456daeb79928fe3d0297\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: So I want to find the differentiation. What\u2019s that, sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282d65900dd2f4ff4aab13fb79f6d1419\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: It says iwi and M\u0101ori organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022074d0d2245cb449bba60a0738a74a0bd\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a differentiation between PSGEs and iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ESome of their strategies that they used were attending p\u014Dkai, rugby clubs, communities, kapa haka, reo programmes, taiao programmes, Waka Ama, mara kai, whakapapa sessions. These heavy loads shouldn\u2019t just be put on Oranga Tamariki themselves, because you know what? They don\u2019t have the capabilities to\u2014they shouldn\u2019t have that pressure or responsibility to go into those sections that PSGEs and wh\u0101nau are already doing in the communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ENow, I stand here from a privileged position because I have had all of this. I am the antithesis of this bill; my upbringing has been the antithesis of this bill. And this shouldn\u2019t be a privilege; this should be a right for every tamariki M\u0101ori across this nation. And this\u2014[Interruption] I don\u2019t know why people over there are huffing and puffing because this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201d1f905bbda483ead051ef3c62a4ff2\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022910e920cde824386bd075f0418d38e47\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t\u2014sorry, Madam Chair. [Interruption] Madam Chair, please. I didn\u2019t get to speak on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a88910ee295b42898fa72d06882a6bbb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just going to call Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke for her question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cde4cf7e5a95448999b3632cb8644313\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235d8c5c5b475459c9cacf814ac921fe5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243ffeeec837d4de3a83728bef176dee4\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: This dangerous, dangerous bill\u2014the whole thing\u2014the fact that there isn\u2019t anything liable or holding to account for this Oranga Tamariki to have engagement. There\u2019s nothing holding them to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EAnd I\u2019m just really sorry, actually, I\u2019m really aroha for the Minister for Children that she never got these opportunities and that, actually, this should have been a basic right. So I want to use this time to actually also talk to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ced1eb283e9f4e228e269e2bddb9b0ce\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got a point of order from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268a4fd55f8c84b328c0b34f150906298\u0022\u003EHon Karen Chhour\u003C/span\u003E: This is not about me personally, and I actually take objection to you mentioning\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022046341792d6a4561b8af54fdebd26af0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Quiet during a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294a449c9d8b94c6d9d99a663449ea89a\u0022\u003EHon Karen Chhour\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that I never received that. How would you know? So keep me out of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022040891c9f62a4b0e9601519b20faf385\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Point taken. I\u2019m just referencing her as a Minister. We\u2019ve had different\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207150d3661e646e98889d0d5559fdc81\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That is a fair point of order and we\u2019ve gone through that in the committee already tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a27b1564fe904ae7abfb9812e91f201a\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m still yet to finish my\u2014four minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022190a8d6aa48441c289ce8919591aec7c\u0022\u003ELaura McClure\u003C/span\u003E: You have to ask a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb82cba88afc4148bb0580bd78f8f12c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Not necessarily. I\u2019m waiting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fab29201bf764fb39da7b9e81c7d941c\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: I will, Laura.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fae55ced588146d6a6e3361840c057c7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m waiting for the question. [Interruption] Stop. It is Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke\u2019s time to talk, but I am specifically asking for a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c80fc2c6536461dbfee1c48e4f560ef\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Yep. Noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290c01baa4dd74723aaf150f95bd73f5e\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Why are you doing this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214200a49ead6460b9a64f1d8bea2fd60\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: So I\u2019m specifically\u2014yeah. Why are you doing this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f79be0f28ef4c8f8b2b232fd0bc1c5d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s going on in your head?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a31be6f7a4e476aa55f6f13fe47acd5\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Ko te p\u0101tai e p\u0101taihia ana e au ki te Minita, he aha te take kei te whakaparahako ia, kei te h\u0101menetia, kei te k\u014Dhurutia i ng\u014Dku whakapapa, i t\u014Dku reo, i ng\u0101 ahurea M\u0101ori ki roto tonu i t\u0113nei whenua? He aha te take? He aha te take? Ar\u0101 t\u014D koutou p\u0101tai, ar\u0101. Ar\u0101 ng\u0101 p\u0101tai, k\u014Drerohia in\u0101ianei. He aha te take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[The question I am posing to the Minister is: why is he discriminating against, why is he penalising, why is he murdering my genealogy, my language, my M\u0101ori culture in this land? Why? Why? That is the question posed for you all. If there are more questions, ask them now. Why?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2f855b145d944abb6ffe71dfab06fc4\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Could you repeat that please? For the monolingual bunch in the room?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efa3c0d1c9fa4651b2a28199b920341e\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: He aha te take? N\u0101 runga an\u014D i te mea, kua kite au. I roto i t\u014Dku rohe ake o Hauraki Waikato, \u0113tehi o ng\u0101 tamariki t\u0113 taea te whai, t\u0113 taea te rapu, t\u0113 taea te tiki i \u0113nei momo \u0101huatanga e whai wheakoranga i roto i te ao M\u0101ori. Koir\u0101 taku p\u0101tai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[What is the reason? This is based on the things I have witnessed. In my region of Hauraki Waikato, some of the youth who are unable to find, unable to search, unable to access these types of things that allow them to gain experience in the M\u0101ori world. That is my question.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EWhy would you take it out? Why would you take these amendments out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EBecause the cases that the Minister referred to before, those three cases\u2014my reference\u2014weren\u2019t actually section 7AA. They weren\u2019t section 7AA, those three cases. So let\u2019s be really clear out there for the constituents listening and for everyone listening. And, yeah, this may sound a little bit cliche. However, I have 300,000 followers on my platform and I want to make sure that they know when we put this out that those three cases weren\u2019t section 7AA and to make referencing: stop criminalising my culture; stop villainising my culture. Yes, obviously there are wh\u0101nau who aren\u2019t looking after tamariki. We know that\u2014we know that and we\u2019re intervening. That\u2019s why Mokopuna Ora was established. That\u2019s why our PSGEs intervened. That\u2019s why our King made those different projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ESo I don\u2019t understand why you would take them out if they aren\u2019t causing any harm. I mean, there\u2019s so much evidence in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256c2e64e32d645a0a6f4553c38dd3930\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that got to do with Part 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246bfdf27971b4ae5bac5034754c0b3de\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that got to do with what, sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294470f7f830d43929cb74ab486ddebc6\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Part 2, what you\u2019re supposed to be debating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce2e89e136924f3780b7cd8fe4a006de\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Because it\u2019s the wh\u0101nau. How are they supposed to report back? How are they supposed to report back on the PSGEs, on the wh\u0101nau interventions, on the programmes I\u2019ve just talked about? How are they supposed to have any accountability with the organisations themselves, with Oranga Tamariki themselves, to the Minister? There\u2019s no evidence. Those cases weren\u2019t section 7AA\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022063fb2cd1cbb4699a0765bb705a2b050\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s no evidence coming from you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c929bdef99b846c0b479d6965a26b9f1\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Those words\u2014I\u2019m telling you, you have no evidence. It\u2019s really sad, and to talk to the tamariki, those\u2014heaps of questions in that, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ETo talk to the tamariki and to use my platform: I\u2019m not going to waste my time and my energy on the State issues that have happened and occurred for centuries\u2014centuries. This isn\u2019t just a business case for us to be talking about different clauses or parts. These are real, lived experiences that no one probably knows on that side of the Chamber, that we have to bring in for our constituents and represent them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ESo with my 30 seconds left, ki ng\u0101 tamariki o te ao e whakarongo mai nei ki a au [to the children of the world who listen to me], from Aboriginal to Kanaka Maui, to Native American, to M\u0101ori. You may not know your whakapapa, but your whakapapa knows you. You may not know your reo, but your reo knows you. You may not know your wh\u0101nau or your heritage, but your heritage and whakapapa know you. I\u2019m honestly aroha for the Minister and I don\u2019t want this to happen to any other tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00223f5f23e0310144d99c05708aaff2c626\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f5f23e0310144d99c05708aaff2c626\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that, but I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve actually asked for you to sympathise for myself. I would say to the rest of that conversation, in regards to Mokopuna Ora - Waikato-Tainui, they are a strategic partner with Oranga Tamariki. They will continue to be a strategic partner with Oranga Tamariki. None of that will change. Nothing within this legislation will change that fact, and those wonderful things that the member spoke about will continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc6d7d5c870f448aa76c340eb7a1996a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc6d7d5c870f448aa76c340eb7a1996a\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222f2dca4f81944b66b59493a586a4e894\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f2dca4f81944b66b59493a586a4e894\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a question from Steve Abel, but I want to stress that we\u2019re on a very small part of the bill, and in the speeches that we\u2019ve had so far, I am not hearing as many questions as I would like to, in terms of this being a committee stage. So can we, please, focus on the questions? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u002241180ef3f86b492abd123eadc6117692\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241180ef3f86b492abd123eadc6117692\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I assure you I have questions specifically relating to replacement section 24(2), inserted by clause 7 in Part 2. I first of all want to recognise on behalf of the Green Party the critical importance of cultural competency, wh\u0101nau-led solutions, and the genuine partnerships with iwi M\u0101ori organisations that are necessary for improving outcomes for tamariki M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe intent behind the original introduction of section 7AA, of course, was to address the deep-rooted issues with the Oranga Tamariki system, particularly the disproportionate number of tamariki M\u0101ori in State care. Now, in terms of addressing for the purpose of improving outcomes for M\u0101ori children and their wh\u0101nau, requiring a deeper level of engagement and consultation with M\u0101ori communities, that is the key to it. That is why we obviously reject these changes. But what I\u2019m seeking clarity on is an assurance that M\u0101ori rights, perspectives, and experiences are actually going to be integral to the system\u2019s design and operation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280772a2e01ec48cdbbdbb9981aef8a47\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Abel, can you tell me what part of Part 2 you\u2019re speaking to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022665f510f6a94497b8464fc5040249700\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m on Part 2\u2014replacement section 24(2), inserted by clause 7, which amends the reporting requirements related to outcomes for M\u0101ori children and wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4f3858473c24cf88d9bcaf43467f6f7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266be423bced94c4797a0ac8e3435ac63\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got several concerns. These amendments appear to fall short in ensuring that Oranga Tamariki is truly responsive to the needs of M\u0101ori children, young people, and their wh\u0101nau. So my question to the Minister: the replacement section 24(2) states that \u201Cthe Monitor must consider any information obtained in accordance with this Act.\u201D Can the Minister clarify how this new wording ensures that information specific to M\u0101ori children and their wh\u0101nau, particularly data relating to M\u0101ori outcomes, is meaningfully integrated into the annual report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESecondly, in section 24(2), it also mentions that the Monitor must be informed by the information obtained under this Act. Can the Minister for Children provide assurances that this will include direct consultation with iwi M\u0101ori organisations and M\u0101ori communities rather than relying solely on data collected by Oranga Tamariki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI just want to point out, Mr Chair, that earlier\u2014when the previous Chair was in the seat\u2014the Minister referenced some specific examples of issues that the Minister used to justify the legislative change in the amendment in the first place. Given the Minister spoke to them, I want to briefly point out, though it has been pointed out in this House before but not necessarily in this debate, that the regulatory impact statement made it very clear that the problem definition had constrained the assessment of the legislation, and it outlined the cause of various instances of poor practice. The regulatory impact statement said, \u201CThere is a lack of robust empirical evidence to support the problem definition. Departmental evidence demonstrates that the problem more likely stems from flaws in the practice of individual staff.\u201D I just want to remind the Minister of that, lest they were to go on to make further anecdotal examples. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EBut those are my two questions. Section 24(2): can the Minister clarify that information specific to M\u0101ori children and their wh\u0101nau, particularly data relating to M\u0101ori outcomes, is meaningfully integrated into the annual report? And can the Minister provide assurances that this will include direct consultation with iwi M\u0101ori organisations and M\u0101ori communities, rather than relying solely on data collected by Oranga Tamariki? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0acb89ec319434a9956db62d8008545\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0acb89ec319434a9956db62d8008545\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I believe that those question you\u2019ve just asked have been asked multiple times and have been answered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227cff39c09ca94aaeb8f1cfa61e62eec5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cff39c09ca94aaeb8f1cfa61e62eec5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I can just remind members that I have been watching this debate since the start, so I\u2019m well aware of what has taken place. I will take one more speaker at this stage, but whoever speaks will actually speak to a section of the bill\u2014they will identify it, and they will come back to it continually, till I understand the reference to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u002261ea5d5df1044c71b0a142e83ef37975\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261ea5d5df1044c71b0a142e83ef37975\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to take a call on this\u2014the first of the evening. My question is really about measurable outcomes in Part 2, clause 10. The amendment to regulation 6(1)(d) requires the inclusion of \u201Can assessment of outcomes being achieved for M\u0101ori children and young people and their wh\u0101nau;\u201D. While we support the inclusion of an assessment, could the Minister clarify what specific metrics or frameworks will be used in this assessment to ensure that it is both meaningful and genuinely reflects the outcomes for tamariki M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EMy additional question is: will the Minister ensure that this assessment is made publicly available in a transparent and accessible way so that iwi, M\u0101ori organisations, and the public can hold the department accountable for the outcomes being reported? My question\u2014Part 2, clause 10\u2014relates to the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989, which has long been a cornerstone of child welfare in Aotearoa. I\u2019m not really interested in anecdotes dressed up like Christmas turkeys. I\u2019d rather have some evidence, and I want to understand how the Minister is going to provide that so that we can have some measure, because what we know is that the application of the Oranga Tamariki Act has fallen short when it comes to M\u0101ori tamariki and their wh\u0101nau, when we have seven out of 10 tamariki in care as M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EMy question\u2014Part 2, clause 10\u2014is to the Minister. Will the Minister ensure that this assessment is made publicly available in a transparent and accessible way so that iwi, M\u0101ori organisations, and the public can hold the department accountable for the outcomes being reported? I\u2019m very interested in what the Minister is going to say because we can\u2019t afford to have things falling through the gaps, and we do not want to hear more anecdotes. We want to understand where the evidence base is going to be. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227f5fc49d9239421098ea7e9048dc4ebb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f5fc49d9239421098ea7e9048dc4ebb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Willie Jackson. And you will have heard my previous instruction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00229c93c210303a497899f3d4180b083e7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c93c210303a497899f3d4180b083e7a\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Oh yes, quite right too, Mr Chair\u2014quite right. But I do want to just follow up on the last speaker. And I note Helen Leahy here today, who\u2019s been involved in so much of this work. I want to acknowledge her work because she worked with Tariana Turia, who would be very concerned in terms of section 7 and the section 24, \u201CAnnual report on outcomes for M\u0101ori children and young people and their wh\u0101nau\u201D, which is in Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWhat I need to know, and what I haven\u2019t heard from the Minister for Children as yet, is the level of consultation with pan-tribal organisations\u2014I have not heard that from the Minister tonight\u2014particularly given the work ground level from pan-tribal organisations that has gone on over the last 20 years. It\u2019s an important question for me, given there\u2019s been a major concentration on iwi, which is fine, but so much work is done at ground level, as the Minister will know, by pan-tribal organisations who do not have the benefit of Treaty settlements, who do not have the base and foundation that many of the big iwi have. But what they do have is a workforce who are committed and who will get out there and support the kaupapa, who are particularly proud of and happy with the former National Government, run by people like Bill English and with leaders like Anne Tolley, who would never have gone along with this rubbish that we\u2019re rolling out today, who absolutely saw the benefits of having legislation where a priority was given in terms of whakapapa for our tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve missed in the debate\u2014and sadly, what they miss out on the other on the other side\u2014is the uniqueness of that decision, that you would have a National Party and Minister who actually agreed with Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori at the time, who were driving it\u2014and even some of the fools in ACT actually agreed with it at the time; they actually understood the benefits and why that had to happen. They were not persuaded by the nonsense that we\u2019ve heard, sadly, from the Minister and some of her colleagues, that \u201COh, this is about we are the world; we are one.\u201D and all this sort of bloody nonsense\u2014with respect, Mr Chair. They knew that an emphasis on whakapapa was incredibly important in tying our babies back to their people and getting them right for what was happening in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo I ask this question tonight because it\u2019s incredibly important. When\u2014as I said, I acknowledge Helen Leahy up there in the gallery\u2014I think about June Mariu from Waipareira, who died recently; I think about my mother, June Jackson; Titewhai Harawira\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ed7f9c9e9364bda9510f8ddf40b4d2b\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: They won\u2019t know any of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b2a5931328b4f47a226e85fb238f02b\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: These were the champions at ground level, and the ACT Party wouldn\u2019t know who they were if they fell over them. They would be concerned today to know that we\u2019ve got this being passed and we\u2019re deviating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo I would ask the Minister: was Dame Naida Glavish part of this consultation? She plays an incredible role in terms of our tamariki at ground level and has the ability to traverse between the urban environment and the iwi environment, and she is one of the real mana wahine in terms of te ao M\u0101ori today. So what sort of involvement did she have? I\u2019ve heard the Minister talk about the consultation process, but I\u2019m still yet to hear about where that occurred. Was that with Waipareira? Was that with Manukau Urban M\u0101ori Authority? Was that with Wellington? Was that with our organisations in Hamilton? It is a worry at the moment. So we need to know: what sort of comprehensive consultation occurred, and who were the key leaders for the Minister? I\u2019m sure she probably spoke to some of them. But is she able to give me some assurances that at ground level, in terms of Maata Waka Walker and in terms of urban M\u0101ori authorities, a respectable consultation took place? Because it\u2019s incredibly important going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002287b49fa1e2d547eaa49f1583b89a98cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287b49fa1e2d547eaa49f1583b89a98cd\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Just to answer in regards to the member Scott Willis, in regards to his question around Part 2, clause 7, amending Section 24 of the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Act: the annual report must address outcomes for M\u0101ori and improvements of outcomes. This is in regulations and is supported in this bill. And, yes, the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor (ICM) reporting is published. The ICM consultation with M\u0101ori\u2014the oversight Act requires, in section 7, appointment of a M\u0101ori advisory group for the ICM, and, in section 18, collaboration with that group. In section 19, the ICM must try to develop arrangements with iwi, hap\u016B, and M\u0101ori organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u002284e4b603e8db4fa4a59b1fd53c3383ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284e4b603e8db4fa4a59b1fd53c3383ba\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c2c2612e80f241c0acb0f1172890ccce\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022920373f33b4148c0b717a6e3b7c59ac5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022920373f33b4148c0b717a6e3b7c59ac5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Kahurangi Carter\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Amendment Paper 242 are ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002217e936c0d96f4cb88a8c9016d8d388ad\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae571dd0e2064d728cb439d87bdf80d8\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221d7e77501edf476fa29803c5246bffa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d7e77501edf476fa29803c5246bffa4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u002296fd0e1b440c49798116b3658ce1beb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296fd0e1b440c49798116b3658ce1beb7\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to talk about clause 1, the title. We have heard in this debate about the Waitangi Tribunal findings that repealing section 7AA will cause actual harm to tamariki M\u0101ori because repealing 7AA does not honour article 2 of Te Tiriti o Waitangi and the intrinsic rights that tamariki M\u0101ori have to be connected to their culture and everything that that has to offer. I wonder if the Minister for Children would consider changing the title of this bill to the \u201COranga Tamariki (We Will Hurt our Tamariki) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe have also heard in this debate that removing the reporting on disparities that tamariki M\u0101ori face\u2014and we know that there are huge disparities. Seven out of every 10 children in Oranga Tamariki care\u2014that means that the State is their effective parent\u2014is M\u0101ori. We\u2019ve heard from those tamariki, from tamariki who are still in State care, that they want to be connected to their culture. In fact, those tamariki, when they do surveys, what comes out of those surveys is really telling, and we need to listen to our tamariki. They\u2019re saying that those activities that are provided to them, that connect them with their culture, like carving, like kapa haka, like seeing their siblings, like seeing their wh\u0101nau, contribute to their wellbeing and are some of their favourite parts of their lives. I wonder if the Minister would consider changing the title to the \u201COranga Tamariki (No Accountability) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe have also heard about the difference between empirical evidence and anecdotal evidence, and I believe in everyone\u2019s ability here to understand the difference, the difference between some really poor practice that goes on and the actual empirical evidence which shows the bigger picture, which shows what really happens at a system level. Unfortunately, the Minister and the Minister\u2019s officials have not been able to provide any empirical evidence to show that this repeal is necessary. I wonder if the Minister would consider changing the title to the \u201COranga Tamariki (Lack of Empirical Evidence) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe have heard through the select committee process from VOYCE - Whakarongo Mai. We\u2019ve heard from those tamariki M\u0101ori who had the State as a parent. They told us that being disconnected from their culture, sometimes being given a P\u0101keh\u0101 name and being told to change their M\u0101ori name, some of them being told that they are not allowed to perform in kapa haka\u2014I see you shaking your head, Minister, but these came out of the mouths of these tamariki. Are you saying that they\u2019re not being honest? Is that what you\u2019re saying? I wonder if the Minister would consider changing the title of this bill to the \u201COranga Tamariki (Trauma for Generations to Come) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe have heard in this debate about people in select committee who had experience of abuse in care\u2014tamariki and adults who were abused in State care\u2014and who told us of being disconnected from their culture, that they are still searching for that healing. I implore the Minister to listen to the experiences of these people and to listen to the evidence\u2014the empirical evidence, not the anecdotal evidence that has been cherry-picked, but the real evidence. I wonder if the Minister would consider changing the title of this bill to the \u201COranga Tamariki (Another Royal Commission of Inquiry) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022f75cbcd23b8e471a979a45b3e6df205e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f75cbcd23b8e471a979a45b3e6df205e\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to congratulate the previous speaker, Kahurangi Carter. I think the Minister should look at changing the title, but I think there\u2019s only one name for it: it should be \u201COranga Tamariki (Kick the M\u0101ori Families in the Guts) Bill\u201D. There\u2019s just no doubt\u2014there\u2019s absolutely no doubt about it\u2014the \u201COranga Tamariki (Kick the M\u0101ori Families in the Guts) Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022699ffea1515a477194ade9dbdd33fa95\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: How sad\u2014that\u2019s pathetic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022893554f30d2d4cb3a296643d162e9ae5\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. You are very sad, actually\u2014being part of that stupid party you\u2019re part of. But this is in fact\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207eaf8aff64e4e02b8c3c279f6e42f7b\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e64eb47df4ca4dd78dd9008d1d5675de\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: All offended, are we? We\u2019re all upset. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022820e076c3624401bb5bb2ca4d2167b0c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edd2d4cbdbe64372a45318267e1ce535\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: Unparliamentary language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022680963b819d243b6b718f39a0a053127\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll be the sole judge of that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a543edcbe0204d39b43b3ff2139c205c\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, I should say, they\u2019re very sensitive over there. I want to say this to the ACT Party, because this is about kicking wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori in the guts. So that should be the title of this bill: \u201COranga Tamariki (Kick Wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori in the Guts) Bill\u201D. That\u2019s what it should be. And you should be ashamed of yourselves, because, as the previous speaker said so eloquently, so many of our kids\u2014and we saw them all here in the House, didn\u2019t we? We saw them all here in the House\u2014beautiful day. And we saw tears from that useless ACT Party lot over there\u2014\u201CAw, we love you\u201D, and all this sort of thing\u2014and then they go and kick them in the guts with this sort of bill. It\u2019s just a shocker. You have our people, and when I say \u201Cour people\u201D, I\u2019m talking young\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e15bff9f8e7454393d87b5f65376ba2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014I don\u2019t, Mr Jackson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291d95fd2c9214d1f9157e6b2126c5841\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022579679bbbe2f46ac92e11eb34b5243f6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eda3020eeca94efabd8d19ad3414173e\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies\u2014sorry. We have people, New Zealanders, with experiences of trauma\u2014trauma\u2014because for years they didn\u2019t know who they were, where they were from, didn\u2019t know their language. It\u2019s like their words mean nothing. We hear them in the House, we mihi to them outside, and then we insult them with this sort of rubbish that we\u2019re rolling out today. That\u2019s why I want to thank our previous speaker, Kahurangi Carter, for all those beautiful titles\u2014beautiful. But there\u2019s only one title: \u201COranga Tamariki (Kick Wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori in the Guts) Bill\u201D. That has to be the title for this. Why? Because you keep putting the boot into wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori. That\u2019s a reality. There are so many statistics\u2014so many statistics\u2014when we look out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud of so many of our people who\u2019ve come through the system. But all they have ever said is, \u201CI wish we had that opportunity.\u201D Well, that opportunity was presented by the National Party, who have betrayed people like Bill English and Anne Tolley and John Key. These are people who supported what we\u2019re talking about today. All those National Party people should hang their heads in shame, including the guy who\u2019s looking for the new leadership, James Meager, over there\u2014we know he\u2019s lining up. They\u2019re putting him forward. Including Mr Meager\u2014he should hang his head in shame because he\u2019s going against the Englishes, the Keys, and some of the real legends of the National Party, who said, \u201CYes, we get it, Tariana Turia\u2014we get it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EYou know, that\u2019s how they worked. Bill said to Tariana\u2014just for the morons on the other side\u2014\u201CI get it, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, I get it.\u201D Oh, another one\u2019s upset.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bcfca0ef0b24c7e9425cd0e8a72cbcb\u0022\u003EHon Nicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I don\u2019t like the name calling, Mr Chair. I take offence at being called a moron.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d35ed173801454089320c19fa56498f\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014I was talking about National. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022868b7e7b76db4587ba7f29ac4b2935f7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s been a very emotional debate and we\u2019re just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beeff41cc58f431e99886d8d8757c52b\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CMrs Moron\u201D\u2014how would that go? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022959a402827f247e882977762642ed9c1\u0022\u003EHon Nicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I\u2019ve just been called \u201CMrs Moron\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caccf64e4ce94d30b79274c5b0b92950\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: You know, I was just offering another option. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2d8067bd251414a834a0a07c3365c68\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: If that was a personal debate\u2014did that member use that term?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297fecfc2fd6742ffae04e2980b32f819\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Not directly, because I don\u2019t know whether she\u2019s \u201CMrs\u201D or \u201CMiss\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022418563d3a2fc420a8210f1f82c553677\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no. The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e90074d1d0c549ddb5dcdb7ee0ab0312\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd43b1fca3a24104bff6c52f2cd8a5dc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Carry on, Mr Jackson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be5e2ceb91a944cda22c55a2dd11c62c\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Gosh, I\u2019m being disrupted. Tonight, I want to acknowledge our former Minister Willow-Jean Prime, who\u2019s been absolutely terrific on this and put a challenge\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228534da575ed040449a99c2a5a6be5b9b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the title. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d7a0257732140f293f6b07afde9e138\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it was part of the title. She agrees with me that this title should be called the \u201COranga Tamariki (Kick Wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori in the Guts) Bill\u201D, so that\u2019s why it\u2019s about that. But the former Minister knows how terrible this is, because we have seen firsthand the consequences\u2014what has happened to some of these young ones who\u2019ve become older people who did not know their whakapapa, who did not know their reo. This legislation gave them an opportunity. So I want to mihi to those former members of the National Party, the M\u0101ori Party, Helen Leahy\u2019s crew up there. Helen Leahy was inspirational and pivotal in this sort of stuff. I mihi to her\u2014to you\u2014tonight, Helen, for all that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ETariana would be ashamed of this lot, because to get a National Party\u2014that\u2019s the point\u2014to actually, I suppose, get on board in terms of whakaaro M\u0101ori, in terms of a strategy going forward, I think, was a wonderful thing. So well done to Bill English, Anne Tolley. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThis is a grave, grave mistake. So I urge the House tonight to support my earnest plea to you all that the title will be changed to the \u201COranga Tamariki (Kick Wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori in the Guts) Bill\u201D. That\u2019s a good title. I can continue if you like. I can see the Minister, because she quite likes the title, too. I can carry on if you like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239fa064346f54fe982bcd386aced10a5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mariameno Kapa-Kingi, and I\u2019ll remind the member we\u2019re on the title and commencement, and I\u2019ll suggest continual referral to same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u00220220f420a88d4653917d5e26921373d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220220f420a88d4653917d5e26921373d2\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Matarau\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori ):\u003C/span\u003E Ka pai, thank you. I appreciate some of the ideas that have already come up about the names, and I like all of them. I think they\u2019ve got a particular truth to them. But the one that I would proffer, if I may, is the \u201COranga Tamariki (Self-serving the Minister) Bill\u201D. And the reason I say that is because all of what we\u2019ve heard, which is the bulk of it, lacks the evidence, the actual empirical evidence; there\u2019s a bit of story, quite a bit of story, and anecdote. So I like the idea of the \u201COranga Tamariki (Self-serving the Minister) Bill\u201D. So I\u2019d like to put that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EIf I may, I do want to also acknowledge Helen, who is in the gallery\u2014Helen Leahy, who most of us on this side will know, but I doubt if anyone on the other side knows. And that is because ignorance is rife, it seems to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re challenging tonight, in terms of the name and in terms of all the other pieces that are part of this bill: it all comes back to the oppression of mokopuna M\u0101ori and their wh\u0101nau. But it is used as a convenient statement like, \u201COh, no, no, mana \u2018ta-mai-ti\u2019.\u201D You know, and it\u2019s said like that because the bulk can\u2019t pronounce the words properly. So we get mana tamaiti and wh\u0101nau, or w\u2019\u0101nau, and hap\u016B, and just the murderous way in which our language is used is a clear indicator\u2014is a very clear indicator\u2014that we are not understood and not appreciated. Not from our reo, because of the amount of poorly spoken te reo M\u0101ori in this House on a daily, minute-by-minute basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ESo how do I know that this is part of that? Because it reads that way and it feels that way and it is that way. Deculturation is a key element to this, and I maybe wanted to ask the Minister if she understands what deculturation has meant to many, many of our wh\u0101nau when, in this instance\u2014I don\u2019t know, she might need me to use another word or the Minister might need me to use other words\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5f4d7e83f6141a4a0ec7482c41c8f5e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, the word the Minister will need is something relating to the title of the bill. You\u2019ll note the other two speakers did, at least once every minute, refer to a title of a bill and I\u2019ll expect the member to do the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220242b931c1114531ae95dadcc798b09e\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so here\u2019s another offering, then, in terms of that: it is the \u201COranga Tamariki (Deculturation) Bill\u201D. And deculturation is key and true. And unless, I don\u2019t know, it takes\u2014you\u2019ve got to understand what that word actually breaks down to. But deculturation is key to the reduction and the taking away, the ripping away, and the reduction of whakapapa, of reo, of tikanga and all the things that M\u0101ori mokopuna are made up of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested whether the Minister can understand that name, \u201COranga Tamariki (Deculturation) Bill\u201D, and I\u2019d be keen to know what her understanding is in that regard. All right, thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022875bd365fcb441c6b8fe954c43e14dcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022875bd365fcb441c6b8fe954c43e14dcf\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00226ca287413bbf49aca847d97830f107d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ca287413bbf49aca847d97830f107d7\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. It is getting late, and it is important that we continue to prosecute the title and commencement because this is legislation. In my contribution, a question to the Minister is that a title that could be considered by the Minister is around some of the comments made throughout this debate this evening. One of the comments made was when the Minister mentioned that, yes, there are some disparities for M\u0101ori young people\u2014just \u201Csome\u201D\u2014and I was quite shocked and actually offended by that because I would say that that is a horrific understatement. We in this House should be very careful with our language, and to minimise the fact that our rangatahi and our tamariki M\u0101ori are impacted hugely by the Oranga Tamariki system\u2014I would like the Minister to consider that this bill should be called the \u201COranga Tamariki (Even More Disparities) Amendment Bill\u201D, because that is what this bill will cause. This bill will cause even more disparities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe Minister spoke and said that there were just some disparities within M\u0101ori. But this is serious, and it is important for us to actually name it for what it is: it is about serious disparities for our young M\u0101ori in this community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThe second concept of a title that I have\u2014and then I\u2019ll get to the actual commencement\u2014is around the Minister having spoken many a time about the fact that there are checks and balances: \u201CIt\u2019s all OK. Don\u2019t panic, people, it\u2019s fine. We\u2019ve got this covered. We\u2019ll repeal section 7AA, but we\u2019ve got it covered.\u201D But then, of course, I looked at the regulatory impact statement, which has been thrown around this committee all afternoon and evening, and right near the end there is a piece that says that, currently, section 7AA plays some crucial roles. It goes on to say that it provides transparency\u2014transparency\u2014and builds trust and confidence with Ministers and with the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo I want the Minister to consider the fact that if the regulatory impact statement is saying that section 7AA and what it does in providing transparency and building trust for Ministers and for the community, she could consider that this bill could be the \u201COranga Tamariki (Repeal of Transparency and Trust) Amendment Bill\u201D, because the evidence is here. The regulatory impact statement is here and is saying that that is what section 7AA does. It creates transparency and creates trust for Ministers but also for the public. So that needs to be considered this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI want to come to my second question, which is around the commencement of the Act. Currently, as it stands, clause 2 says that \u201CThis Act comes into force on the day after Royal assent.\u201D Now, we know that as we sit in this House week after week, these dates change and move. They can be three months, they can be six months, or they can be a year after the bill is passed into law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to consider this evening, because of what we\u2019ve heard not only through the select committee through submissions\u2014which, rightly so, the Minister has told us that she has read; she has even quoted some of them this evening in this Chamber\u2014that for the sake of transparency, for the sake of iwi, hap\u016B, and M\u0101ori organisations, for the sake of Oranga Tamariki, and for the sake of community groups involved in this system, there be time for them to get it right so that transparency and trust can actually be implemented to make sure. If she is convinced and so confident that taking section 7AA out of law and out of legislation for this bill will make things better and fix things, why not allow time for the different agencies and M\u0101ori groups to actually spend time to prepare, so that when it comes into force in, let\u2019s say, one year from Royal assent, we can have more faith that it is transparent, that we can trust, and that we can actually see that the disparities\u2014which aren\u2019t just some, as the Minister said, but they are major and they are systemic, when you consider it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo there are two questions. The first is around what the title should be, and then, secondly, around saying let\u2019s get serious and consider the commencement date so that all can be on board with this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022158c71b93c4c4d4dae9c6b1db21a675d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022158c71b93c4c4d4dae9c6b1db21a675d\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to finish off this debate with my last statement on this debate. This has been full of quite personal statements made about myself throughout this debate, so I do think I should have a right of reply to some of the statements that were just made in Glen Bennett\u2019s speech just then to make out like I would minimise the thought around M\u0101ori that are impacted by being in care, to think that I\u2019m minimising the disparities of M\u0101ori in care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ENow, many people have stood in this House, on that side of the House, and stated that they have a right to speak about M\u0101ori because they\u2019re M\u0101ori, they have a right to do this because they are part of a specific group. Many in this House over time, since I\u2019ve been here, have spoken to wanting someone who has had lived experience to sit at the decision-making table, but the minute you have someone sitting in this seat at the decision-making table that does have lived experience, no, it\u2019s not good enough if they don\u2019t think exactly the same as the people on the other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI would never minimise the disparities of M\u0101ori within care; I was one of those M\u0101ori in care. I would never minimise M\u0101ori who were impacted by the care system, because I was a M\u0101ori in the care system. Every decision I make is based on what I am hearing from my community, what I have dealt with myself going through the State system, from family members who have dealt with the State system, and making sure that our children are safe, loved, and cared for. How do you think they got to Oranga Tamariki (OT) care in the first place? Because they weren\u2019t looked after; they weren\u2019t loved, and we won\u2019t have the difficult conversations of the fact that OT didn\u2019t put them there. We need to make sure, when we\u2019re making those decisions about placing them back with wh\u0101nau, that they are safe. It should not be wh\u0101nau at all costs. That is the last statement I will make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad81fe1e5c0a436f956a95ed3a1ef2c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad81fe1e5c0a436f956a95ed3a1ef2c4\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d just like to talk about the commencement. The question that I have for the Minister\u2014and it is a genuine question; please consider this suggestion. There is an existing mechanism within the Oranga Tamariki Act which allows for a full analysis of section 7AA. Section 448B requires the Minister to undertake a periodic review of the legislation, Government policy, and other arrangements, to ensure the needs of children and young people with whom Oranga Tamariki is concerned are met, including specific focus on the needs of M\u0101ori children and young people. This review is required no later than 1 July 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EA prudent and responsible way forward would be to stop the repeal of section 7AA and wait for this review to provide the evidence required for good, public decision-making and governance. This option has been available to the Minister all along. If the Minister had genuine concerns and wanted to know what the policy problem was with section 7AA and these perceived conflicts between the best interests of the children, Te Tiriti o Waitangi, section 7AA, and practice decisions that may have been made using section 7AA, the responsible way forward would have been to use the very section already in the Act to do that review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EBut the Minister does not appear genuinely interested in this. The decision was already made to repeal section 7AA. There was no consultation with the strategic M\u0101ori partners prior to introducing this to Parliament. There was no negotiation that could take place. In fact, the Minister herself said, in terms of consultation, \u201CMake a submission to the select committee.\u201D How offensive. That is not consultation under Te Tiriti o Waitangi. What a disrespectful way to treat your strategic M\u0101ori partners: you are relegated to making a submission to a select committee, in a process that is open to every member of the public. That is consultation, no opportunity to review how section 7AA works alongside strategic partners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe suggestion that I have for the Minister is to delay the commencement of this repeal. Once done, the devastation it will cause, the damage you know it will cause to the relationship\u2014because it was pointed out in the regulatory impact statement, the harm that the tribunal, that your own officials, and that others have said will be done to children if this is passed. Will the Minister pause this, delay the commencement until after the periodic review is done, as already provided for in the legislation? Because if the Minister is not prepared to do that, it tells us that she never cared in the first place and that it is true that this is all just about political ideology, ahead of what is actually in the best interests of our tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec86256141bf462aabb7b2bb662be672\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec86256141bf462aabb7b2bb662be672\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to speak on the title. I was thinking that I might have been a bit harsh, earlier on, when I was talking about the \u201COranga Tamariki (Kick Wh\u0101nau in the Guts) Bill\u201D. I could see I upset a few members on the other side\u2014and some of the ACT members. So I had a good think, I sat down, and I thought maybe I was just going a bit too extreme there. I don\u2019t want to be extreme. So rather than call it, in terms of the title, the \u201C Oranga Tamariki (Kick Wh\u0101nau in the Guts) Bill\u201D, I just thought the \u201COranga Tamariki (Rotten) Amendment Bill\u201D might be\u2014I thought that was a bit more subtle and a bit more sensitive to some of the New Zealand First and ACT members. I just thought that if we just insert \u201CRotten\u201D\u2014the \u201COranga Tamariki (Rotten) Amendment Bill\u201D\u2014I think that does the trick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EBut I want to address the Minister because I did hear some of her k\u014Drero earlier, and I listened respectfully to what she was saying. Never once, I think, on this side, did anyone say that they were better M\u0101ori than her or whatever, and I actually respect what she\u2019s been through. I understand it completely, and I think many of us do. I just asked the Minister, tonight, to think about what my colleague Willow-Jean Prime has been saying with respect that you\u2019re not listening to what our experts are saying, you\u2019re not listening with respect, Minister, to what our community leaders are saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWhen you talk about lived experience, I used to uplift babies in my former role. We used to go in where we had abuse happening in houses. We would go in and take the babies\u2014take the babies. We didn\u2019t care what the story was. We would go in, a team of us, so that, first and foremost, those babies were safe. And we did not care where those babies went to, as long as they went to somewhere safe. In those times, 25 or 30 years ago, Minister, they didn\u2019t mind at all if they went to P\u0101keh\u0101 families, Asian families, as long as they were safe. That was our thinking at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EBut as the years went by and we were working for our urban organisations, we were told by our people, by our kaum\u0101tua, that these babies would benefit hugely if they went to some wh\u0101nau who knew their background, who knew their whakapapa, who knew their language. And don\u2019t get me wrong; M\u0101ori families didn\u2019t get it right all the time at all. There were failures in terms of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a84ae2002ea40dcb379e571a216ffe5\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: But neither were the P\u0101keh\u0101 ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd1eb187112942c38acb53aa703b9f47\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. But we\u2019re not saying every M\u0101ori family had it right\u2014of course not. But the principle of tying these kids back, these babies back, to their whakapapa was, without doubt, successful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EAnd what we\u2019re saying tonight is that should have been the driver. I had doubts myself 25 years ago, Minister. I had doubts myself because, first and foremost, I wanted those babies to be safe. I wanted them to be safe. We used to have to go in, in terms of abuse and gangs and abuse in terms of what was happening within partners. The main thing was to get the babies right. But as our kaum\u0101tua came through, as our leadership came through, they talked about the benefits of learning the language and of tying the whakapapa together. And then we were won over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EAnd, then, so from a community level, we progressed to a political level, and we started pushing those types of lines with people like Tariana Turia, John Tamihere, and others who, through the years, were always pushing the wh\u0101nau ora message all the way through. And then we had different people from the Labour Party picking this up. Parekura Horomia\u2014he was a big supporter of this type of thing. And then in the ACT Party, Rodney Hide was supporting it. And in National, Anne Tolley and Bill English were supporting it because they knew that the benefits of tying kids back to their whakapapa would be really good for the communities and good for iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo I say to the Minister, tonight, in all seriousness, I hear your k\u014Drero. We hear your k\u014Drero. But the problem is you\u2019re not listening to our k\u014Drero. You\u2019re not listening to our iwi. You\u2019re not listening to our community. And we know you\u2019ve been hurt, but our community is hurting, our people are hurting, and this is very, very dangerous going forward. Our fear is that we\u2019re going to be put in the same type of position that we were in 25 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca6b6bee5c9f4b60bd8ddc43041fd4d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca6b6bee5c9f4b60bd8ddc43041fd4d6\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022609c0d52221849488427cfc13c120dc9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223d171fd213ce44fdbe73938f62dddc24\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b414968e20b149eba9750705cf92213e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000842\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000843\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002298b05abdeb68487486a6f23d18f7409f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298b05abdeb68487486a6f23d18f7409f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002299609c9a7e774f2491244a6edee5baa1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299609c9a7e774f2491244a6edee5baa1\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading next sitting day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbe4aea6419c4508b231ad139c4d91f0\u0022\u003ERegulatory Systems (Primary Industries) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f61030b8719043df97956c07b23891cd\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3d5e72b630e47218a8932383d73d467\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3d5e72b630e47218a8932383d73d467\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Regulatory Systems (Primary Industries) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265bbafddaceb40e99fb68edb70bddaf7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022614269316b1d459c83eb1462c04e7db0\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Regulatory Systems (Primary Industries) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pleased to bring the bill back to the House today, and, as I said in the first reading, this is all about good regulatory practice and reducing red tape and unnecessary compliance. Let me briefly remind the House of what\u2019s in the bill, and then I\u2019d like to touch on some of the changes that have been recommended by the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe bill as introduced amends 14 Acts and repeals five, which are all administered by the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI). Changes range from fixing typos and small areas that have crept into legislation over years. I recall an energetic discussion at first reading over the misplaced bracket in the National Animal Identification and Tracing Act. It goes on to minor policy shifts that will make the regulatory systems work more efficiently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThere are four key themes to the amendments that the bill makes. These are reducing administrative burden and cutting red tape\u2014for example, allowing for renewals of registration under the Agricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines Act, rather than requiring people to submit a whole new application when their registration expires. The second is clarifying and updating the statute book to better reflect the policy intent\u2014for example, in the Animal Welfare Act, adding that MPI can take any history of past breaches of export conditions into account when considering an application for an animal welfare export certificate. Thirdly, addressing errors, gaps, and inconsistencies within and between different pieces of legislation\u2014and I mentioned the misplaced bracket earlier. Finally, ensuring that the regulatory systems remain up to date\u2014for example, changing overly specific consultation methods to become a list of options so that the most appropriate method can be chosen to fit the circumstances. This reflects the changing way that people receive information, especially through the internet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge the Primary Production Committee for its work on this bill. I\u2019d also like to thank the Business Committee for its indulgence in agreeing for me to recommend two rounds of additional amendments to be added to the bill. The Primary Production Committee worked through these very well, with the support of officials, and I\u2019d like to recognise their hard work and understanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThese additional amendments were proposed because of the kinds of changes that could be suitable for the Regulatory Systems (Primary Industries) Amendment Bill being identified all the time. I wanted to make the most of the opportunity this bill presented to fix errors, reduce red tape, and, of course, improve the quality of regulation. Let me give an example of an additional amendment added during the select committee phase. Under the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority Act, the Horticulture Export Authority charges fees for monitoring horticultural exports. In some circumstances, it would be appropriate for the Authority to provide an exemption, waiver, or refund of these fees if a fee-payer has not been able to use the Authority\u2019s services because of an adverse event, as an example. This is what happened following Cyclone Gabrielle. The authority wanted to refund those fee-payers who had not been able to export any product that year and had been unable to use the authority\u2019s services\u2014the Act doesn\u2019t allow for that. So we\u2019re making that change to provide the flexibility that\u2019s needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EOne other example of this is quite a technical one\u2014when setting a levy under the Commodity Levies Act, an industry body will hold a weighted referendum where the vote is counted by the amount of the commodity produced or the amount of land under production or some other appropriate criteria dependent upon the commodity in question. To calculate that amount, the Act says that the industry must use the previous 12 months before the referendum was held. This doesn\u2019t always line up with the seasons or industries where it would make more sense to pick a date and say, \u201CAll animals owned as of this date.\u201D, as an example. So the bill will amend the Commodity Levies Act to provide more flexibility in how a weighted referendum is calculated, so that it is the most appropriate method for each industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ENow, in the consideration of the bill, the Primary Production Committee added three Acts to it. So for those who might be keeping count, it now amends 17 Acts and repeals five. I\u2019ve talked about the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority Act already, and I\u2019d like to turn now to the two other Acts added: the Forests (Legal Harvest Assurance) Amendment Act and the Organic Products and Production Act. Given that these are fairly recent pieces of legislation, members may wonder why there was a need for changes to them. These two Acts were still before the House at the time this bill was being drafted, and because they were adapted from existing legislation\u2014for instance, parts of the Organic Products and Production Act were adapted from the Animal Products Act\u2014they contain some of the same issues. So all the changes to these two Acts replicate existing amendments already in the bill; they\u2019re just applying them in different legislation. This will improve consistency across legislation\u2014it means that there won\u2019t be different regulatory regimes with different requirements for the same thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EDuring the select committee process, some submitters raised points of concern with some amendments. For example, there was a proposed change to the National Animal Identification and Tracing Act that would have enabled information to be shared more easily with police in the case of stolen livestock or in emergencies. However, submitters were concerned that this would weaken privacy protection in the Act and allow for farmers\u2019 personal information to be used inappropriately. That amendment has come out of the bill. The Ministry for Primary Industries will continue to work on improving information sharing, while maintaining privacy protections separately. Again, I\u2019d like to acknowledge the Primary Production Committee for their work on this bill and thank those who took the time to make submissions on the bill or to be heard in person. This bill is going to reduce red tape and improve regulatory quality, and it backs our farmers and our food producers by helping to simplify and get costs down. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228630b60755e0418fa9277272e1a888f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228630b60755e0418fa9277272e1a888f1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2f9f167078147a99ddc0c985fffccd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2f9f167078147a99ddc0c985fffccd2\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to rise in support of this piece of legislation. Just want to acknowledge the Minister of Agriculture, who has just resumed his seat, or just finished speaking, and I want to acknowledge the members of the Primary Production Committee, who worked on this piece of legislation. I think I refer to these regulatory systems amendment bills as somewhat more of housekeeping-type bills, where a general look is done across the system and different things are picked up\u2014for example, minor errors, duplications, gaps, inconsistencies, and perhaps something that was once put in place that is no longer relevant in more modern times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThe bill was referred to our select committee on 27 March. We only had a few submitters, but none the less they were very important and valuable submissions for us to have. The select committee did make some changes to this legislation, and, well, there\u2019s heaps and heaps of lots of little bits and pieces of legislation, so I\u2019ll just touch on a couple of those changes that have been made, one of them being\u2014for example\u2014just making a change to clause 34. Currently, laboratories that are exporting samples of animal material or product overseas for tests that can\u2019t be performed in New Zealand have to meet relevant export requirements. This is definitely deemed unnecessary, because, actually, these products aren\u2019t being exported for trade or any sort of reward. So one of the changes has been to make an exemption on goods such as this that are just being sent overseas for testing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EOne of the other things that I wanted to point out, and the Minister also mentioned this, was particular to the setting of fees or waiving of fees for those involved in hort export. The Minister, he has mentioned it too, but I do think it\u2019s really important that we\u2019ve made this change to the legislation, particularly in light of extreme weather events such as what we saw with Cyclone Gabrielle, where people were unable to export their goods and would have\u2014prior to something like this being set in place\u2014had to still pay their fees. So what this does is allow for a waiver or an exemption, and I think that\u2019s only right and it is only fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EOne of the other things that the select committee looked at was\u2014well, one of the changes was proposed to some of the wording with regard to the milk price panel. The proposal was to amend new section 150E(2C), inserted by clause 132A, to \u201Cone vacancy\u201D rather than \u201Cany vacancy\u201D. Fonterra\u2019s submission opposed this, and upon hearing their argument, whereby they discussed the members that are on that milk price panel\u2014and they are independent\u2014they felt that even if there was more than one vacancy on that panel, there would still be enough members remaining to be able to continue with the appropriate duties of that panel. They were also concerned that if we continued with the original proposal in this piece of legislation, they wouldn\u2019t be able to carry out their functions for a certain period of time should there be a vacancy due to unforeseen circumstances, and it would actually be quite dire because it could force the base milk price calculation process to come to an absolute halt, which would undermine the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act\u2019s base milk price oversight regime. We certainly don\u2019t want to see something like that happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThe other thing that we looked at and considered\u2014and the Minister also mentioned this in his contribution\u2014was around the National Animal Identification and Tracing Act 2012, or, as we referred to it, NAIT. Part of that was to allow for the sharing of information in certain situations, and it was, as the Minister alluded to, to deal with things such as issues around, perhaps, stealing of livestock or what have you. Listening to the submissions on this, it was quite interesting. There was some genuine anxiety out there on what that information could be potentially used for\u2014what if it got into the wrong hands, etc. And so the ministry proposed to delete this provision to enable further work separate to the bill to be able to address the submitters\u2019 concerns around the scope of the information sharing. So as a select committee we were quite happy and agreed to that position that the officials took.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EOne of the final things that I just thought I would mention is around the Walking Access Act 2008, and this is pretty much just modernising that. The Act established the New Zealand Walking Access Commission, but times have changed, and it now has a board role relating to access, and so it\u2019s not limited to just walking. It\u2019s since rebranded itself as the Outdoor Access Commission, and the Minister proposed amending the Act to reflect this change. We also recommended changing the name of the Act to the \u201COutdoor Access Act\u201D, which makes perfect sense. So, without further ado, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b43daaf31e444b12b198475af82cfda1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b43daaf31e444b12b198475af82cfda1\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I thought I might be off the hook tonight with one minute to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228548aff6013344679a111b0e0f525de4\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: One more minute, Jo!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9c3a763b4f0449897f7c600b5e92173\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: That was a fantastic, Jo, and I appreciate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been pretty clearly outlined that this is a one of those sort of omnibus bills that makes a lot of inconsequential changes to pieces of legislation to make them more functional; clarifies and updates statutory provisions to give effect to the purpose of various Acts and their provisions; addresses regulatory duplication, gaps, errors, and inconsistencies within\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022656270eb4f2b419da58ecca811d82f32\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Typos.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d79083746f6546d89ee3f3992f2e1bc5\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and between different pieces of legislation\u2014it\u2019s all right, guys, we\u2019ll get out of here about 5 past\u2014ensures the regulatory systems remain up to date and relevant; and reduces administrative burden for regulators and regulated parties. The bill is a vehicle for smaller regulatory fixes to be made in a timely and cost-effective way. By their nature, regulatory systems bills are designed to make many necessary and varied amendments across the sector and in multiple Acts, as long as there is broad support for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, one thing that I am struck by is it just happens to be, by dint of circumstance and history, that this bill is repealing the Forests (West Coast Accord) Act 2000. In terms of the impact of that, I will be asking the Minister of Agriculture to clarify that in the committee stage. But I have a particular association with that piece of legislation. For those who don\u2019t remember, the West Coast Accord\u2014originally 1986, I believe; perhaps it was 1987\u2014was an agreement between foresters on the West Coast and the conservation movement to ensure the protection of a certain segment of forests while permitting the logging of other sections of native forest on the West Coast. Now, that was seen to be a necessary deal, if you like, made by conservationists to ensure that some of the finest lowland remaining native rainforests were not logged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EAs time went by, and through the 1990s, it became clear that given we only had 7 percent of our lowland rainforest left, the loss of any of those exceptional remaining West Coast forests was a significant biodiversity loss, a significant impact on conservation, and a risk to the survival of a number of species but also to some of the most extraordinary remnant forests, such as \u014Ck\u0101rito, the podocarp forests that are an example of what used to occur throughout the entire country, which is these amazing podocarp forests that went from mountain to the sea. And we all know how spectacular that West Coast landscape is, but the loss of that connected forest ecosystem was a big loss for the natural heritage of our nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI happened to be part of the campaign in the 1990s to see those forests, allocated for logging in the West Coast Accord, returned to protection. That campaign in the 1990s\u2014which was hard fought and where some of us ended up getting arrested for various reasons: blockading logging roads or locking ourselves to helicopters\u2014led to the change of Government in 1999 to the Clark Labour Government, which was in part through a coalition agreement with the then Green Party that had first entered Parliament as the Green Party in 1999. It led to the creation of the Forests (West Coast Accord) Act 2000, which had the effect of gazetting 137,000 hectares of native forest as conservation estate. That was the effect of that legislation, and it became probably the most significant gazetting of very high value biodiversity forest that has occurred since that time. Nothing is comparable, and it meant an end to the logging of native forests by the State on Crown land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWhereas other countries\u2014including our nearest neighbours, Australia\u2014are still logging magnificent ancient rainforests in the likes of Tasmania, New Zealand took the very wise decision, 25 years ago now, to stop logging our native forests on Crown land, and that is an example of where we have done the right thing in terms of conservation. I am very keen to understand what the consequences of the repeal of that legislation are and how it works in terms of the relevance of our protection of those forests in an ongoing manner. So I intend to be asking those questions of the Minister in the committee of the whole House. For the meantime, that\u2019s me for the night. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002231dc97442a3a4b05b8ae91f5f55cb56f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231dc97442a3a4b05b8ae91f5f55cb56f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House will resume at 2 p.m. tomorrow. Good night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025040199cff7cb485b4823a14b44811904dec1000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"