"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002285968555474c441bad6bf0334c4a8434\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 22 JULY 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022281a4e589ccb42feb3b611a4367f15e7\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 22 JULY 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002212aa922a718444a89460a1deff223007\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223399e8655039449ba6d5fd6c879eab8d\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223b80834a935144e8aca79f009187996f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b80834a935144e8aca79f009187996f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a736892ebd13473baaf0be4fc92bfbb6\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022609d747f6ce0447dbc79ecec042b0551\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022181705064f274464b51beb907320ca2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022181705064f274464b51beb907320ca2d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A petition has been presented to the Clerk for presentation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022629b4763aa0d417498d9aad48123055c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022629b4763aa0d417498d9aad48123055c\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Simon Palmer requesting the House amend the Protection of Personal and Property Rights Act to ensure no person requiring legal guardianship is discriminated against financially by the cost of annual auditing fees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00227cf2a3166a8646599656ce3545357da4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cf2a3166a8646599656ce3545357da4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00227bc6beb72894434f9e929814e1738eb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bc6beb72894434f9e929814e1738eb2\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment responses to the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Scott Savage\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Petitions Committee on the petition of Kylee Kelly\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Petitions Committee on the petition of Rhodes Farming Partnership\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2025-30 statement of corporate intent for the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EInstitute of Environmental Science and Research\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Institute for Public Health and Forensic Science Limited\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2025-30 statement of intent for the External Reporting Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2025-28 statement of intent for Whakaata M\u0101ori, M\u0101ori Television Service \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2025-26 statement of performance expectations for:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EExternal Reporting Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EResearch and Education Advanced Network New Zealand Limited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228a3f8e77d06243a982d0392c5af9afb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a3f8e77d06243a982d0392c5af9afb7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve received the annual report of the Parliamentary Service Commission for the year ending 30 June 2025. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. A select committee report has been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022b04ced3582814df0a49189d9b3f05335\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b04ced3582814df0a49189d9b3f05335\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Report of the Education and Workforce Committee on the Regulatory Systems (Occupational Regulation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f762a56871ba4b7d9be0d901ab957771\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f762a56871ba4b7d9be0d901ab957771\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for second reading. No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022931aba0acf104841a364ccb3456760c2\u0022\u003EMinisterial Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002222baba20fe2040fbbec122b9d98b89cc\u0022\u003EConflict in Middle East\u2014Government Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1bdc93819bd4c87b0e2363be99cc920\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1bdc93819bd4c87b0e2363be99cc920\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to make a ministerial statement on the Middle East.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5b13b3f01e64bd8a243f701633e935f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t need leave, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3ea8d0cd40349baade3fe4d601ddfa6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Almost a month ago on 24 June 2025, we delivered our most recent ministerial statement on the Middle East to this House. At that time, the world was grappling with Israel and Iran bombing one another. New Zealanders were in harm\u2019s way; the spectre of escalation and a wider regional war was very real. Back then, we called for de-escalation, dialogue, and ceasefire. Thankfully, the United States and Qatar were able to broker a ceasefire between Israel and Iran, and that wider regional war has, for now at least, been avoided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EA month later, though, we continue to be confronted by horrifying scenes playing out in Gaza. We have the horror of innocent Israeli families robbed of their loved ones\u2014in October 2023, by Hamas\u2019 heinous and immoral hostage-taking\u2014still yearning and demanding for them to be free. We have the horror of more and more innocent Palestinian citizens and civilians starving, being deprived of their basic needs, and being killed every day\u2014because Israel\u2019s military response to the events of 7 October 2023 long ago ceased to be proportionate, reasonable, or moral, and because Hamas continues to act with complete disregard for civilian life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe international community is united in its revulsion to what is happening in Gaza. This horror must end. Too many lives have been lost; too many people have been traumatised, polarised, and embittered, ensuring that yet another generation of Israeli and Palestinian children are born into a situation of insufferable conflict and enmity. That is why New Zealand has come together with Foreign Ministers from 27 other countries to state as clearly as we can that enough is enough, that this war must end now, that this suffering is intolerable. In that joint statement, we condemned Hamas\u2019 continued detention of hostages and called for their immediate and unconditional release, and we condemned Israel\u2019s policies, which are leading to untold and unimaginable suffering and death among Palestinian civilians, and we call for it to comply with its obligations under international humanitarian law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe international community is joined by an overwhelming majority of Israelis and Palestinians in wanting an immediate ceasefire. That is understandable, because only a negotiated ceasefire offers the best hope of bringing Israeli hostages home, and of ending the immense suffering of Palestinian civilians in Gaza.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has always accepted that it has limited influence over the course of this generations-long conflict. The Middle East is a long way away from New Zealand, but we can and must still do our part. New Zealand\u2019s mission has for decades been consistent: we want dialogue, we want diplomacy, we want negotiation, and we want a two-State solution. We call out actions which undermine the conditions for a two-State solution. This New Zealand Government has designated the entirety of Hamas, whose standard objectives include the complete destruction of Israel, a terrorist organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1173c4c1b9c4826bdea6002779c0dc3\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: What about the IDF?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4345604feb84a0f9c43caa2f4ce681e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: We have also put in place travel bans against Israeli Ministers who have taken complete steps to undermine the two-State solution by advocating illegal settlements and settler violence. Sometimes, it pays to be patient and find out the facts before shouting from the rooftops.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EAs today\u2019s joint statement by 28 Foreign Ministers, now joined by more, says, we strongly oppose any steps towards territorial or demographic change in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Such steps seek to undermine the two-State solution and they must stop. The only way forward is an immediate, unconditional, and permanent ceasefire. Human suffering is indiscriminate in this conflict. It\u2019s been inflicted in vast quantities on Israelis and Palestinians, Jews, Muslims, and Christians. Further bloodshed serves absolutely no purpose and, therefore, it must stop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ENew Zealand, with our partners, reaffirms our complete support for the efforts of the United States, Qatar, and Egypt to achieve a ceasefire. We wish them well in this critically important task. Ultimately, what we must see is a political pathway towards peaceful Israelis and Palestinians living securely side by side. Only then can this long-running cycle of conflict be ended, in the hope that the next generation of Israeli and Palestinian children can know better, brighter days. No matter how hopeless the situation seems, that must be the international community\u2019s objective, and New Zealand will continue to do what it can to contribute to those efforts. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022077b8b89b0f545ca81b6d97443537031\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022077b8b89b0f545ca81b6d97443537031\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much. The Labour Party welcomes the ministerial statement from this Government on very concerning matters in Gaza. We want to be very clear and upfront that we continue to be concerned with what\u2019s transpiring across the entire Middle East region. We know, though, that action speaks louder than words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ELabour\u2019s position has been clear: we support an immediate and permanent ceasefire and the unimpeded flow of humanitarian aid and, of course, a two-State solution. We continue to denounce the actions of Hamas and will continue to do so into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIsrael\u2019s ongoing military campaign and blockade have created one of the worst humanitarian crises in recent memory. Over 58,000 Palestinians have been killed in 19 months of relentless bombardment and attack. Ninety percent of Gaza\u2019s population has been displaced. Infrastructure, homes, hospitals, and schools have been decimated. Nearly half a million people are facing catastrophic hunger. Approximately 71,000 children under five are expected to be acutely malnourished. Pregnant and breastfeeding women are starving. Children are dying from hunger and preventable disease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe welcome the Government\u2019s recent steps, sanctions against Israeli Ministers, and co-signing a joint international statement calling for an end to the war. But we must be honest: these moves come after 24 other countries have already taken action. There is more that New Zealand can do and must do. Silence is no longer the issue; inaction is. If we believe in international law and human rights, we must act with moral clarity and urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI now have a series of questions for the Minister. The first question: will the Government now join South Africa\u2019s case at the International Court of Justice as a demonstration of support for international legal accountability; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002218111a5a5d0a4831ba14d578a3d4f272\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218111a5a5d0a4831ba14d578a3d4f272\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister may choose to answer within the member\u2019s time slot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00223a14abf3a23e493f9fca36954a08527b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a14abf3a23e493f9fca36954a08527b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Could I tell my colleague that I intend to take advice on that and get back to him with an informed answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022485bbd9d822341cb88ce40aaad86df23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022485bbd9d822341cb88ce40aaad86df23\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister. The next question: does the Government agree that allegations of genocide are a matter for the International Court of Justice to determine, and not for politicians to dismiss or decide unilaterally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd6cba47ae384c98a9a2e9697b3b8471\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd6cba47ae384c98a9a2e9697b3b8471\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, we agree in the sense that the court of which that member speaks has got a duty, but hitherto they have not found that. They have taken it by way of investigation and reviewed it, but they have not come down with a precedent, directive, or, dare I say, finding. However, that still doesn\u2019t obviate the rest of us needing to be considering the merit or otherwise of such a claim and to see whether it is substantial or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe20d5dc26cc4c78af09808fc87e604a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe20d5dc26cc4c78af09808fc87e604a\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister. My next question is: given the 20week total blockade on Gaza, what is New Zealand doing, diplomatically or otherwise, to press Israel to allow unimpeded aid access?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002262716a0346a14c8daa07594cc0492013\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262716a0346a14c8daa07594cc0492013\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Well, as I said, in the last months we have made many, many statements. The last one was in June. Today, we\u2019re updating it, with now a growing number of Foreign Ministers and Governments joining us. At the latest it looks like we\u2019re at 28, plus we\u2019ve been combined by the whole of the European Union, so it\u2019s gathering momentum. Hopefully, in time, that level of pressure will prevail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8c4919c6aa94c58871dc3538f1f8968\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8c4919c6aa94c58871dc3538f1f8968\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. The next question to the Minister: is the Government concerned by the widespread criticism of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, including by over 240 NGOs, and has New Zealand contributed funding to the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation; and if so, what conditions, if any, were attached?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00225c1f8712d7b64905a1075c9b1839b84a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c1f8712d7b64905a1075c9b1839b84a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The reality is that we have a duty in these circumstances, no matter how desperate they are and inhumanitarian they are, to ensure we can recount to the New Zealand taxpayer. That\u2019s why, when we ran into difficulties with the server of aid, and they were under suspicion and indeed under investigation by the United Nations themselves, we found other organisations with credibility to assist us to ensure that the aid continued. That has always been our course under successive Governments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00228f04eee880c045b08fdc28d2959cf52c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f04eee880c045b08fdc28d2959cf52c\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. In light of the Minister\u2019s answer, the next question is very direct: will the Government commit to more aid resource to fill the need in this unfolding humanitarian crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00227f0c7095518b4e1cb0c04610a2be2c48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f0c7095518b4e1cb0c04610a2be2c48\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I understand what the member has asked me for, but the reality is New Zealand has already given significant amounts of aid, and at a time when the international economy is facing uncertainty and so is the domestic economy as a consequence. We also have serious aid programmes in the Pacific, which are our number one priorities and have been under the last two Governments. So whilst we\u2019ll carry on endeavouring to help out, remember this: it is an awful long way away from New Zealand, and we have the right to feel awfully frustrated that for decades of all of our lives, this issue has been there, at the centre of international news. We hope one day it would finally be over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002255c8b67cc11f403a88417a73017e588f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255c8b67cc11f403a88417a73017e588f\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister for his answer. My next question is to the recent deployment made by this New Zealand Government, with respect to what has transpired between Israel and Iran, and whether or not the Government have considered, with respect to that deployment, offering any further support to what\u2019s transpiring in Gaza?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00228fb487809f7d409eacb7089795176f56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fb487809f7d409eacb7089795176f56\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The reality is that we had teams working on the outskirts of that situation in Gaza and Israel and found no requests for our help. The other paradox, or irony, that we have faced is that we sent a full military plane all the way up, set to take 139 people out of Iran. We had teams brought over the border to use and facilitate the transport on those planes, and then the peace broke out and no one wanted to get on the plane. Now, that\u2019s one of the things that we do as a country. It wasn\u2019t a waste of time. We were there just in case there was an emergency, and we started from 36 people finding they needed help to, dramatically, 139 by the time the plane got there\u2014and then peace broke out. We hope we have the same unusual circumstances happen when it comes to Gaza.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00220f20a9f2ad0245b4b906a3050976fb35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f20a9f2ad0245b4b906a3050976fb35\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister. My next question is: the large diaspora here in New Zealand who have families suffering in Gaza, the Palestinian community\u2014has the Minister or this Government considered any support with their efforts in, one, trying to contact and, two, trying to support their families in Gaza?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f60f863bbafa4f419ea975ac234f7a50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f60f863bbafa4f419ea975ac234f7a50\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The successive situation, over many Governments, has been to help through international agencies. Whilst there are both sides of the story occupant in New Zealand, we hope they haven\u2019t brought their politics with them\u2014that they remember that this country is a peaceful country, it has got its values, there\u2019s a flag to salute, there\u2019s our laws to be obeyed, and there\u2019s a political system and freedom that needs to be subscribed to, including the freedom of religion. The very lessons of success here need to be learnt back there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b53ed18272b44d7b95c43a2e9c51a22\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a religious conflict. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aad6293871743bcbcd006258a3bcc04\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Who said that? You must have come down the last shower.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b884ccb1ccd40ce9a762130538fa519\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just to advise the House not to make those sorts of interjections in a ministerial statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00221ea44f5583d149b5a5d78247a7a5e26a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ea44f5583d149b5a5d78247a7a5e26a\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. My final comments on this matter: as we continue to encourage action from this Government, we welcome this ministerial statement, and we\u2019ll continue to look towards what more New Zealand could possibly do to support. But I remind the House once again that silence is no longer the issue and action is, and that if we believe in international law and human rights, we must act with moral clarity and, most importantly, with urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226dee0dfe08014b3ab77e7c474531047c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dee0dfe08014b3ab77e7c474531047c\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party to respond to this ministerial statement. I acknowledge the statement, but we need to have more than words\u2014we need to have more than words. We are beyond the point where we need to have action. I was watching the media last night, horrified to see that 19 people had died of starvation in Gaza. Hundreds and hundreds of people who had been lining up to get food have been shot and killed. We see over 17,000 children killed, over 70,000 people killed as well, and hundreds of thousands of people displaced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI do hear around the House that it is far away and on the other side of the planet, and so on and so forth. It is far, but it is also close as well, as many MPs around the House will have been connected with the diaspora community\u2014and we have that in Palmerston North as well, and I want to share one story. I was helping a family get their grandmother over so she could help with their children\u2014they had come from Gaza\u2014and she was here for one week before the bombs dropped on her apartment, destroying the apartment that she lived in. This is a family now living in New Zealand. Gaza might be far away, but it is also close as well. I want members around the House to remember that\u2014that when they look overseas and see their grandmothers, their daughters, their grandfathers, their brothers and sisters dying, this is something that the House should take into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI also want to make the point as well that this House can actually move fast. A number of us were here in the last Parliament when Russia invaded Ukraine, and we passed sanctions\u2014this House passed sanctions. So it can move quickly when the political will does exist. I think we\u2019re getting late in the day where we need to actually take some action here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got a bill in the members\u2019 tin which would allow this Parliament to collect sanctions on Israel, because that is what is needed; that is what is being called for. We have the UN special rapporteur on the Palestinian territories, Francesca Albanese, who had a report this week highlighting companies which are directly benefiting from the genocide in Gaza. These are actions that we can take; these are things that we can take as a Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EYes, ministerial statements show that the Government is taking note of what\u2019s happening, but we need to have more than words. The people outside these walls want more than words. They want to know that their families are safe. They want to know that their brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers, and uncles and aunties, and all of that, are safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EOn that, I do have a series of questions that I would like to put to the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Will the Government also join the multilateral actions of 12 States, led by South Africa and Colombia, who announced measures to prevent the provision of arms, including dual-use items, to Israel; prevent the docking of vessels that may carry arms to Israel; commence urgent reviews of public contracts to prevent public funds supporting the occupation; and investigate Israel\u2019s war crimes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e12b4e207b02404caf9dd21d4abac347\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e12b4e207b02404caf9dd21d4abac347\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, to liken the invasion of, first of all, Georgia, then Crimea, then Ukraine to 7 October and the Hamas terrorism is an extraordinary juxtaposition of history and fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe second thing I want to say is that the very question that\u2019s being raised here obviates the fact that the South Africa v Israel case before the international court is yet to be decided, and it\u2019s wrong to prejudge the court\u2019s decisions, including on various huge allegations such as genocide. Only then, when there was such a finding and proven, would the kind of action being demanded by that member be warranted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226cb362fd7a1f4456aea688285772b946\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cb362fd7a1f4456aea688285772b946\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Another question. What concrete measures, if any, will the Government take to support the statement, such as public divestment from Israel, joining the case in the International Court of Justice\u2014and I do acknowledge the Minister of Foreign Affairs did mention that\u2014or sanctioning Israel as we did with Russia? In that context, I do make the point that the time has moved on. We have hundreds of thousands of people displaced, tens of thousands of people killed, people dying of starvation, and people being shot while they\u2019re trying to get food. So I think that the situation has changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee321e6045b04b6a8220cc61a422b65f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee321e6045b04b6a8220cc61a422b65f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Well, if the member thinks that the situation has changed, why haven\u2019t Hamas given back the hostages they\u2019ve got now\u2014right here, right now? Why haven\u2019t they done it months ago, years ago, when this thing was first requested by the international community? Why aren\u2019t we talking about that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe second thing I want to say is there are people who have been judged by New Zealand in Israel to have been terrorists. We\u2019ve even said that of a couple of Ministers who have made statements, which in our view were terrorist in their nature. We\u2019ve already done that. To make a finding that is unwarranted by international precedent is not what we\u2019re going to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6e1fe0abb9c429a8e80a83911b8fa0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6e1fe0abb9c429a8e80a83911b8fa0b\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Has the Government spoken to any of the 27 other Governments involved in this statement about material measures to put concrete pressure on Israel to stop the genocide, such as economic sanctions, and if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4b6ce5d40c14c77a664921cdab3edb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4b6ce5d40c14c77a664921cdab3edb5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has spoken to all of those countries over the months. We have been to Egypt. We\u2019ve spoken to the Palestinian Authority. We\u2019ve spoken to Indonesia. We\u2019ve spoken to countless countries who understand the plight we\u2019re in trying to be helpful in a peaceful resolution of this tragedy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002287f9e22936db4f3ea00b528e61bbe833\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287f9e22936db4f3ea00b528e61bbe833\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Did those conversations include sanctions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00222506df19e6d74c79a4383e6c4d46d1af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222506df19e6d74c79a4383e6c4d46d1af\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002200337516a20044d5b584cacf1bc0d86e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200337516a20044d5b584cacf1bc0d86e\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Did those conversations include discussions on sanctions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef507e6e9e6248dd9980c926aed5d2f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef507e6e9e6248dd9980c926aed5d2f8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Well, obviously, the discussions have been wide ranging. We do not want to make a decision or actions which are purely symbolic in nature and of no real meaning in fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022dea5e3b0da5441fe9c5b01bf79985034\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dea5e3b0da5441fe9c5b01bf79985034\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Why did New Zealand only implement travel restrictions on two Israeli Ministers and not also asset freezes like those announced by the UK and Canada?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022db1e2d8782d84bccb4ab21fbe27decad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db1e2d8782d84bccb4ab21fbe27decad\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Because we do not believe that the justification for that, at this point in time, has been established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022837c53631ea046b494a3950cd29acc37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022837c53631ea046b494a3950cd29acc37\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Does the Government share Australia\u2019s position that Australia no longer sees recognition of a Palestinian State as only occurring at the end of negotiations, but rather as a way of building momentum towards a two-State solution, and if so, when will New Zealand recognise Palestinian statehood as a tool to help build peace?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3f0363b1cba4c21b40bebe0c9470882\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3f0363b1cba4c21b40bebe0c9470882\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E We have always said, this Government, that it\u2019s not a matter of if but when, but the question that has to be answered, saving us lowering our standards of statehood, is who would we negotiate with? Who would we talk to? Who would establish the State sans or without an election? We have talked to Egypt about that. We\u2019ve talked to many Middle Eastern countries about that. We\u2019ve talked to Emirates about that. We\u2019ve talked to Indonesia about that. We\u2019re all on the same wavelength here. Who would we talk to, to establish this so-called State, or are we just virtue signalling? Virtue signalling is not what we\u2019re going to do here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226f708f9408cb4c0c9b5e1b00a4f2b309\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f708f9408cb4c0c9b5e1b00a4f2b309\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E With six seconds, what concrete measures, if any, will the Government take to support the statement such as public divestment form Israel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00228b1aee19a9ce44109be6b6559af0aa07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b1aee19a9ce44109be6b6559af0aa07\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I tried to point out that such a decision would have to be the result of international findings, and those findings have not been established. Even the court which was referenced in the previous questions here has not made the decision that is claimed by some members in this House. Those are not facts. We await those findings at this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002270bc5fcadf794c64bde0741d60a3d74e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270bc5fcadf794c64bde0741d60a3d74e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: One of the vagaries of Standing Orders is that while we\u2019ve agreed that the rosters for questions and other such might change, it\u2019s not within the jurisdiction of the Business Committee to extend that to ministerial statements. However, the member might like to seek leave of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022b61293c549f04810a6585e2a48860602\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b61293c549f04810a6585e2a48860602\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, I seek leave from the House to take a call on this ministerial statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022319d74ba038947bc807ef1ddc5e372ac\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection to that course of action? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276b3c9e2c8824801aeac1e0cfb2af0e7\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Gaza is starving. Israel is deliberately engineering a famine. They blockade thousands and thousands of trucks that have lined up at the Rafah border. Food has been stockpiled in warehouses\u2014in fact, enough food that could replenish the whole of Gaza for three months. Supply-ready, systems-ready, but they are being denied entry. A population of 2\u00A0million, including 1 million children, are being starved, with no access to food or water. Many are going weeks and days without food. Many are being shot, daily, by the Israel Defense Forces while lining up for food. This continuation of a genocide is the most cruel humanitarian crisis\u2014the merciless butchering of people, children, while being deliberately starved. People can barely walk. They\u2019re drowsy. They are slowly dying on livestream. Don\u2019t dare turn a blind eye, saying we didn\u2019t know. One in four children under five years in northern Gaza is severely malnourished\u2014no baby formula. It\u2019s not a food crisis if food is waiting at the border; it\u2019s the deliberate starving of children and wiping out of people by wiping out their children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThis Government does many cruel things, but nothing is as cruel as being mates with those committing this genocide. They are complicit\u2014for Israel to not open the gates. We do not accept this Government\u2019s pathetic lip-service calling for a ceasefire. It\u2019s your fifth time in two years. We must end this human crisis. Sanction Israel. Sanction everyone supporting them. Again, we demand: Israel, open the bloody gates and stop the genocide, democide, ethnic cleansing, and the massacre of mokopuna and the innocent. We need strong sanctions\u2014expulsion of the Israel ambassador, as we have called for in the past. We don\u2019t need whaiwhai p\u012Bhau solutions, which means following the flatulence of others like the US. We must lead with courage and humanity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EI also have questions of the Minister. Does the Minister, and this Government, recognise Palestine as a sovereign State\u2014yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00229fd7e2b86eae4f78ba69b17deca724de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fd7e2b86eae4f78ba69b17deca724de\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E They say the first victim of war is truth, and that\u2019s a classic example. Do we recognise a Palestine State? We have made it clear that, for us, it\u2019s a question of not if but when. But we need to ensure we do not lower the standards of what statehood comprises. There, in our conversation with the Middle East and with Egypt and other countries bordering there, knowing far more about the circumstances than us, they have an agreement with us. We need to establish who it is we\u2019re going to negotiate with before we recognise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u00223551323b5180467ea11aa420430e261c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223551323b5180467ea11aa420430e261c\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister. Why does this ministerial statement not call for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire by Israel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022204909abf7bb43169fafa2929f05b062\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022204909abf7bb43169fafa2929f05b062\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Well, perhaps, because one of the conditions has yet to be met, like giving back the hostages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022c64f0849a1aa474fa25caccdcaa4b14a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c64f0849a1aa474fa25caccdcaa4b14a\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Is the Government prepared to name the actions of Israel in Gaza as genocide or ethnic cleansing, as identified by United Nations experts and the International Court of Justice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e67dc54e0c4f4067a77532af4962c721\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e67dc54e0c4f4067a77532af4962c721\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E That last claim is false; it has not been declared by the international courts to be that, so we are not going to add our support to something that is not based on facts but is based on what someone would hope to be the case regardless of legal precedent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1e904c4ee2a4718ad210332c5ca320f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1e904c4ee2a4718ad210332c5ca320f\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Why does the ministerial statement fail to acknowledge New Zealand\u2019s obligations under the genocide convention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002205df1a0138cc476991f8dbdbbf5d4d10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205df1a0138cc476991f8dbdbbf5d4d10\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The same answer for that question is given in the previous two answers I gave that member. Perhaps he should pay attention to the fact that the international courts are yet to make a judgment on that matter\u2014or does he think he knows more about the law than they do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u002255a3f5c1d5c64a6abb7eff40aec22b66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255a3f5c1d5c64a6abb7eff40aec22b66\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E What tangible actions, beyond words, is the Government taking to stop arms sales, diplomatic ties, or trade with Israel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00222df6ba355c0e4c1782c5ea9e10ae6714\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222df6ba355c0e4c1782c5ea9e10ae6714\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand\u2019s citizenry, on behalf of their Government, has made an enormous contribution in terms of the civil obligations we believe we have to the people who are caught by the strife. It is a very, very significant contribution and is about as much as we can afford, given the huge demands upon our purse when it comes to international aid in other troubled areas of the world as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225a19ddbdc1534e2b8e2fec65a80b3685\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a19ddbdc1534e2b8e2fec65a80b3685\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister may like to exercise a right of reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022409ccf26d52049bd94e029c17ce6ed49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022409ccf26d52049bd94e029c17ce6ed49\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you very much. I think we\u2019ve taken too much time of the House already. I appreciate the comments made by those Ministers and those members of Parliament, who are, hopefully, understanding of just how difficult it is to achieve an outcome the control of which is not in our hands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022633ab8241b0e4e5b8cb88044f2d21a59\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d67c9f9c261349bc8db86505abe0d1ff\u0022\u003EWar in Gaza\u2014Government Signing Joint Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e303edf69f00435b8912aef8e3ab6840\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e303edf69f00435b8912aef8e3ab6840\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019ve received a letter from the Hon Peeni Henare seeking to debate under Standing Order 399 the Government\u2019s signing on to the joint statement, with 24 other countries, condemning Israel\u2019s war in Gaza and calling for its end. This is a particular case of recent occurrence for which there is ministerial responsibility. The matter is an urgent one that warrants the attention of the House. It\u2019s been well canvassed in the responses to the ministerial statement, and no further debate is warranted at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002243779a8dc38d4d0f8e1f8628d1f7223e\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022834931eebd5047d88fd642848834200d\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022103ac512c3ab46ca9d632f1a806cde2d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022eaa242f7bb684582be9558fb3cf475e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eaa242f7bb684582be9558fb3cf475e1\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has she seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00220a8fd42254ea41f192b497f9ea041c19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a8fd42254ea41f192b497f9ea041c19\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, Stats NZ released the latest figures for the Consumers Price Index (CPI). These showed annual CPI inflation increasing slightly to 2.7\u00A0percent in the June quarter, remaining within the Reserve Bank\u2019s target range of 1 to 3 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d458cb6bbd5f40758764a1f5fff1c34d\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: How does this result compare to past inflation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231cd201bf1df4b83b62b29e6a228ce71\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: This is the fourth consecutive quarter that annual CPI inflation has been within the Reserve Bank\u2019s target range. Prior to that, inflation was above the top of the band for three years. Annual inflation in 2022, for example, went like this: March quarter, 6.9 percent; June quarter, 7.3 percent; September quarter, 7.2 percent; and 7.2 again in the December quarter. Those were crippling price increases for Kiwi families and businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc1c9d379b1e44fe95eb469c315ec33a\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What is driving the bump in annual CPI inflation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226504d5dd5ec443c8bf2dd39248f688e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: This is largely due to an increase in global price pressures, including on food, that New Zealand is not immune to. Domestic price pressures, on the other hand, are continuing to ease. There remain some pockets of concern, however. Stats NZ noted that the largest single contributor to annual inflation was local authority rates and payments, which rose 12.2 percent in the year to June. That\u2019s why the Government has been clear in its call to councils to focus on the basics and keep rates under control. I\u2019d also reiterate that the CPI is a basket which has many different goods and services in it, and around a third of those actually went down in price over the past year. Stats NZ also notes that the average rate of inflation across the OECD is higher than New Zealand\u2019s, at 4\u00A0percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea8d6e3d09f948a98d2f90564bb510f9\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What is the outlook for inflation and interest rates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225092d7b2c6ce4d5fa647c96d6df9f4d0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The current uptick in annual CPI inflation is expected to extend into the September quarter of this year but not persist beyond that. In its most recent monetary policy review, the Reserve Bank, in its own words, said, \u201CAnnual consumers price inflation will likely increase towards the top of the Monetary Policy Committee\u2019s 1 to 3 percent target band over mid-2025. However, with spare productive capacity in the economy and declining domestic inflation pressures, headline inflation is expected to remain in the band and return to around 2 percent by early 2026.\u201D Markets are expecting the Reserve Bank to continue reducing the official cash rate, including a likely 25 basis point reduction at the next opportunity in August. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bf803093f07d4f0aa3aa72bb0bce8f2e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Child Poverty Reduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00226a9985cc1ad14853aea81b68cb977264\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a9985cc1ad14853aea81b68cb977264\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Child Poverty Reduction: Does she agree with the findings of the Below the Income Floor: Modelling Income Adequacy for Low-Income New Zealand Households 2018 \u2013 2026 report; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u002279f1a9c1ec594d0b9bf81d76d17c0389\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279f1a9c1ec594d0b9bf81d76d17c0389\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Child Poverty Reduction):\u003C/span\u003E This report highlights the impact the cost of living is having on New Zealand families, which is why our Government is tackling it head-on. Despite global economic pressures, we are taking steps to lift families out of hardship by focusing on growing the economy, dealing with the cost of living pressures, and helping families to get ahead. In Budget 2024, we delivered meaningful tax relief, an increased in-work tax credit, and the FamilyBoost childcare rebate. Further initiatives such as Working for Families in Budget 2025 are helping to ease financial pressure for families across the country. I do acknowledge that it is tough for many families right now, which is why we are taking these steps to support them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd8389d4561745409fd4774305a1e26d\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Have any Government decisions made life worse for children living in poverty, and, if so, which ones?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224def171da8114424a89916c46f1e2753\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: There will be a range of policies that our Government is taking to tackle the cost of living and to grow the economy to support more Kiwis into jobs, and no one single policy should be treated in isolation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272124e754848477faec7ac99d1c6666d\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Has she received advice in regards to any decision affecting children living in poverty that it could make life worse for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9a8ed69eeda406ca7913288881b65bc\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: No, because our Government is tackling a wide range of issues, as I\u2019ve just outlined, around growing the economy\u2014which, of course, creates job opportunities\u2014and reducing the cost of living, which I accept is tough right now for many families. The Minister of Finance has just, very appropriately, outlined the history behind inflation and the Consumers Price Index. I\u2019m very grateful for the fact that it is now under 3 percent, but I accept and acknowledge that for some families, they are still doing it tough, which is why economic growth and turning the corner on the cost of living is so critical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022147d26c97d294d2c9a4a8f1b55eee1ac\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Child Poverty Action Group\u2019s report finding that \u201Cwelfare transfers remain structurally inadequate\u201D, and, if so, will she support increasing benefit levels beyond the automatic indexation changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecf1c187c5d4406b86dfa25cc5a8f65c\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: No. In this House, I\u2019ve said on multiple occasions that our Government\u2019s focus is about supporting people into employment so they don\u2019t have to rely on benefit payments. This side of the House wants to see more families and more children independent of the welfare system. Over 80,000 people exited the benefit into work in the last quarter, and we\u2019re making progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f820ac5225d452098626dad4eab21e7\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that her Government does not have a plan to get unemployment rates to zero percent, and, if so, does she think unemployed people deserve to live in poverty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228758d9d5b6c64f6687bfe83527030e0b\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I completely disagree with that. As I\u2019ve just said, despite there being challenging economic times, we\u2019ve seen over 80,000 people exit the jobseeker benefit into jobs. My colleagues, on Sunday, just this weekend, have announced infrastructure plans for projects that are starting in the next six months\u2014in excess of 20,000 jobs in that. So the jobs are coming, and we are committed to ensuring more people on the jobseeker benefit exit into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b79c22aabedf4a8fa8ecb2927aa700e0\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that her Government\u2019s decisions are making it worse for people living in poverty, considering the report found that things actually improved between 2018 and 2024, but this Government has reversed this trend, and by 2026, according to the report, more families are expected to be unable to afford the basics such as housing, utilities, and food?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022157613e1bb16435892ae8e8a1965fb37\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I completely refute that. If you look at where the Government has focused its effort around housing, around incomes, and around food, which are all related to the cost of living pressure, we\u2019ve got a plan and we\u2019re sticking to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f086929ab5048a08813f372c8b7cbbc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00225935508305cd47d59f784e7f1e289eba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225935508305cd47d59f784e7f1e289eba\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u002201b08d2bb505493cae7b11c920959c81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201b08d2bb505493cae7b11c920959c81\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022783c980d9b8b4d7d97c9df782b883d94\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: How many families with kids have been receiving the $250 extra a fortnight that he promised them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289c9c83aea0a435bbcdebddfa4ccc30b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said to the member last week, the good news with FamilyBoost\u2014a policy that he and his party did not support\u2014is that we have 62,000 families that have received payments to support them on their early childcare education costs. The changes that the Minister has made to expand the threshold and also the coverage means that there\u2019s another 22,000 families and households that can participate in early childhood cost subsidisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0a5be33a7ef46de9237590954e5622d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc5c6e8f05134618b37061cc58db0de6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I know what you\u2019re going to say, but I couldn\u2019t hear a word he was saying because I had an enormous amount of noise coming from my left, so it makes it very difficult for me to judge whether or not the question has been answered to your satisfaction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0c5a70f30bb4fa086223ccf7de7b243\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it could have been a relatively short answer. I only asked him how many families there were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddfc052b373b4c5a8d31a4e3d42901eb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That would be your opinion. But it\u2019s quite often that Ministers will give a prelude to an answer, and that\u2019s not something that\u2019s new.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b649811a38ce476194a83f92b3c757c0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it didn\u2019t come anywhere near close to answering it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260ec7b7b311348cabf6e96aede41556b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s your opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259e5ccc154a34e319bfc020bd153423c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll ask it again: how many families with kids have been receiving the $250 extra a fortnight that he promised them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d78b45be83624638bacc1bd7b47d364c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just say to the member: if he wants to put a specific question on notice, feel free to do so. But the great news here is that this is a Government that supports low and middle income working New Zealanders, the people the Labour Party purported to care about but don\u2019t care about any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218b827f4ccd0471591e635e9f321fcb6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. How is it in order to refuse to answer a question and then immediately go into attacking the person who asked it? It\u2019s a very straightforward question: how many people received the full benefit of a promise that he made them? He could answer it or he could not answer it, but pivoting straight into an attack on the Opposition is just a bit desperate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222516bcf130004d0bbc995be193916d27\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you for the observation. Do you have another question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f748e90211234fb59cbb81e6417e32c7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by Nicola Willis\u2019 statement that the Government has delivered on every promise that they have made in relation to FamilyBoost; if so, why can\u2019t he confirm that any families have received the $250 a fortnight that he promised them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233a435fa44384392b74aa3c02325865f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. What FamilyBoost is about\u2014for the member, so that he understands it\u2014is that depending upon your income and depending upon your costs, everyone receives their full entitlement. So the full entitlement that each family gets is subject to their income and also their costs. It\u2019s a great scheme. I\u2019d encourage the member to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de0c82653cef4220b7027b1207356127\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he cancel 20 hours a week of free early childhood education that all families with young kids could\u2019ve benefited from, given only 153 families have received the full benefit of his complicated tax rebate replacement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022489e200f3adb496ebc2a59b864046627\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in answer to the second leg of the question, I\u2019ll just say to the member what I said before, which is that everyone who has applied has received their full entitlement. Their full entitlement is subject to their income level and it\u2019s also subject to their costs. As I say, every member receives the full entitlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f00fa77a6cfb4c4393630c8dc05a1d01\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: So is he saying that the reason that the 21,000 families he promised were going to be getting the full benefit of his FamilyBoost childcare tax rebate haven\u2019t been getting it is because it\u2019s their fault?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5e5964a48e44b4ebbb72bd53057ceeb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. What I said to the member is that we have put two initiatives into place to help support low and middle income working families, which I\u2019m very, very, very proud about. Lifting income tax thresholds is not ideological. It\u2019s just common sense in high-inflation environments created by the previous administration. The second thing I\u2019d say is that FamilyBoost is actually there to help low and middle income working New Zealanders. I\u2019d just encourage the member to put aside the petty politics and to get on board and actually help New Zealanders with their cost of living crisis, because I haven\u2019t seen any proposals from the member as to what he would do differently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6e6c0ddc89d444e962e435745bff630\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Prime Minister answer this question very slowly: given that this is a sliding scale payment, are those entitled to their full amount on the sliding scale getting their full benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd3e9cbeb0614fffa7e9f414be32bfe4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I want to thank the member for his question, because that\u2019s exactly the point that I\u2019m making, which is that everybody who is eligible and then applies for the rebate actually gets their full entitlement, because it\u2019s based off their income, it\u2019s based off their costs. As a result, 62,000 families have received assistance, and that should be something that I would have thought the member opposite would be supporting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c36b52d48c564191abdbcf5ee4a5e063\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does he stand by David Seymour\u2019s statement, \u201CWe\u2019ve beaten inflation.\u201D, given butter is up almost 50 percent, tomatoes 33 percent, lettuce and broccoli 30 percent, steaks up 22 percent, and rates, insurance, electricity, and other household costs continue to rise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1329a731c6546109536ea75d16f9b67\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I find it a little bit ironic being asked that question by that member, don\u2019t you think? Because it was his Government that created out-of-control spending, tripled the debt three times, ended up rising inflation, throwing interest rates through the absolute roof. Then he has the audacity to ask\u2014when inflation now is back within the Reserve Bank band of 1 to 3 percent, when it was never in that band while he was Prime Minister\u2014as to what the component parts of it are. I\u2019ll just say to the member again: 12.2 percent is what the increase in council rates have been. That has driven an extra 35 basis points into our inflation number, and I\u2019d love to hear the member\u2019s position on rates caps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb1b3ea6eff948408cba3f53a96771bc\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why was inflation there to beat in the first place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261831ce96e72483e92b3586f3462303c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Because the previous administration, to keep it simple, borrowed more, spent more, taxed more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255da986cb75a490ba4edf415b91352e4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014sorry. I should have been quicker to stand on that, but it would have been\u2014the question itself was probably not out of order, but the beginning of the answer most certainly was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcc7a2769fd541788680fd76c981950d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: How many blocks of butter can he buy for the $60 a week he claims to spend on groceries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbca7099363d4f989ee0aaa34b2c1cc2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s a smart-arse question, isn\u2019t it? But I will just say to you: that member is supposed to be the Leader of the Opposition, and in Opposition, you oppose but you also propose. There\u2019s no proposals from that side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebfd419f076840c7911b7c4c03f0e8c1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t want to stand up in the middle of the Prime Minister\u2019s answers, but I would ask him to consider a number of rulings that I\u2019ve made in the House in recent days about answers. Any further questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002283d55c31fc9f4e60a2b2f56c3352d082\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Infrastructure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00223b52b0381ac34d66bff3765448339d23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b52b0381ac34d66bff3765448339d23\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Infrastructure: What recent announcements has he made about getting infrastructure built in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00228c10bfd694e04d9689252160c1bf8145\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c10bfd694e04d9689252160c1bf8145\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister for Infrastructure):\u003C/span\u003E On the weekend, the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance, and I announced that there will be $6 billion of Government-funded infrastructure projects starting construction\u2014not allocated money, not business cases being developed, but spades in the ground between now and Christmas, creating thousands of jobs across the economy, creating economic growth, and driving productivity. And this is just the start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298f199d78eca458895e2d1f1ad025e98\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What projects are starting construction in the next six months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8b62866100546a8838db5594af0e2da\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s some crackers on this list. Soon we will turn the sod on the \u014Ctaki to North of Levin Expressway, the Melling interchange and RiverLink project\u2014a long time coming for the good people of the Hutt Valley\u2014the new \u014Cmanawa bridge on State Highway 29 in the Bay of Plenty, and $800 million worth of school property projects alone in the next six months. Because of the good work of Erica Stanford in driving down the cost of construction, we can do far more, because of standardised modular designs. A range of important health projects\u2014Auckland City Hospital, Middlemore Hospital, Hawke\u2019s Bay Hospital, and a new acute mental health unit at Hutt Valley Hospital\u2014a new state-of-the-art biosecurity facility in Auckland, and the Papakura District Court interim courthouse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c04064efcc9b47559d26467873b6ce22\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What will these projects do for the construction sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272d4af3b00334d0793424332592b8c4a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The projects getting under way will create thousands of employment opportunities for New Zealanders. The numbers vary according to the nature, but, roughly, for a billion dollars of infrastructure investment, that equates to around 4,500 jobs. So there are thousands of jobs coming, and, as I say, this is just the start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022993e6be54b404a83bb66f313fcd053d5\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What is the difference between \u201Cagreeing to a project,\u201D and \u201Cstarting construction\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b3955280c1d448385fe730b85ff5df1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Careful with the answer\u2014take care with the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdafff6c2dd84a6191e91a5d4afb1992\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealanders can\u2019t drive on funding agreements, they can\u2019t see doctors with mere appropriations, and they can\u2019t go to new schools in endless business cases. What they can do is go to school in new classrooms, and drive on new roads and well-maintained roads. One of the interesting things about the projects that are starting construction in the next six months is that some of the funding was approved many years ago\u2014for example, the Middlemore Hospital recladding was first appropriated in Budget 2018, and seven years later, it is starting; initial funding for State Highway 76 and Brougham Street, which I turned the sod on just last week, was initially approved in 2017; and the new acute mental health unit at Hutt Valley Hospital was appropriated in Budget 2019. This Government has made getting spades in the ground a priority, and we\u2019ve made delivery a priority. You can\u2019t drive on a road that is just funded. You actually have to get building.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285d10fb8e25545b8bb5f55d361d436c2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Being a Wellington Minister, in particular, why didn\u2019t he mention the infrastructure work for our no-nonsense Cook Strait ferry programme that starts later this year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220888b21c8eeb4449ab555c2c8bfee0b6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Because Nicola Willis cancelled it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299f8809a4700498b9ea97ccf84270571\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014saving the taxpayer billions of dollars, in stark contrast, sausage roll eater, to the profligate mess we inherited?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216f013d63da04b77bfeefdfff3226c95\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the reason I didn\u2019t mention it is that there\u2019s so many good things happening around the country when it comes to infrastructure, and of course, when it comes to that great project, I leave the majority of the announcements\u2014and the good news\u2014to the Minister for Rail, who\u2019s doing a very good job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224cc6226eab034e75a85334f465b9b955\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002246478b4817fc43fd9bd6395ce3eadd88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246478b4817fc43fd9bd6395ce3eadd88\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does she stand by all her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1f8cde234784ac48bd5f59e3cb2ee78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1f8cde234784ac48bd5f59e3cb2ee78\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In context, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b9cac5d8a62461293b45fc3224493c3\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement they had delivered on \u201Cevery promise that we [had] made in relation to FamilyBoost\u201D; and, if so, how many families have received the full $150?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7721eaadee849c6956b4f004c71b332\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. What the National Party campaigned on in Opposition was that we would deliver a FamilyBoost childcare rebate scheme according to eligibility criteria relating to household income and the amount of early childhood fees that a family paid each week. We have delivered the scheme exactly according to the eligibility criteria we outlined in our campaign. In fact, more recently, we have gone further and made the scheme more generous so that now families can get up to 40 percent rebates on their early childhood fees, and families on higher incomes are now eligible for the scheme. If that member wants to rob more than 60,000 families of cost of living relief, I\u2019d suggest to her that she\u2019s out of touch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f893646d5421477e96f573aeeaaf12d9\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she promise 21,000 families $150 a fortnight when only 153 families have received it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0c9cde92953478a8eb0d16a93d29051\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m afraid that this is the boy who cried wolf, because I did not make that promise. What I said\u2014and I\u2019ve gone and checked the transcript\u2014is that, at the time that I was asked by journalists at our initial briefing on FamilyBoost how many families we thought would get the maximum entitlement, I said, \u201CI can confirm that based on official modelling, around 21,000 families would be entitled to that payment.\u201D Now, the point is this: first of all, I based that statement on the modelling that had been provided to me in good faith by IRD and, second of all, there is a difference that I encourage the member to contemplate between a maximum payment and a full payment. I can confirm this to this House: every family who has applied for FamilyBoost has received their full entitlement based on the eligibility criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247a193e4904f42a3aa33fcbd4e7a8808\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she promise that 130,000 families would receive FamilyBoost when less than half have actually received it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244e8d05f96bf4c38a8df32fc40e805b2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I find it troubling when I\u2019m misrepresented in this House. I did not say that. I said up to 130,000 families could benefit. You know what? We\u2019ve got lots of years in office left to go, so I\u2019m confident that might happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eece3239e56843a695b8b7cf838b4458\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How many families have received the full $250 that was promised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea6113dc2a244329967406e52f018fa6\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Every single family who has applied for FamilyBoost has got the full entitlement to which they are eligible. But the thing is this: there are families out there who haven\u2019t applied for their FamilyBoost rebate, who aren\u2019t aware that they can get up to 40 percent of their early childhood fees back in a cash payment straight into their bank account. So I say to every family in New Zealand with kids in early childhood education: get online and apply. Our Government wants you to have that money in your bank account. Barbara Edmonds and Chris Hipkins would take it from you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ebc2e9f5cc4439090821dacf2af6d34\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How does 153 families fully benefiting from FamilyBoost compare to the 40,000 children who would have benefited from the 20 hours free extension that her Government cancelled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223887b3ba7de4e758fc1f8d071f2f005\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I find this curious. We have, opposite us, a group of people who claim to be in touch with those who are struggling with the cost of living and yet, at the same time, they are dismissing the relevance of payments of $50 a week, $100 a week, $20 a week. They\u2019re saying that that is not relevant to a working family, that the fact that 60,000 families having received cash rebates through the FamilyBoost scheme is not relevant, and that we should only focus on those who\u2019ve got $150 a fortnight. I\u2019d put to the members of this House that that is simply out of touch with the reality of working people, which is that every dollar counts. Second, I\u2019d say this: you claim people would have benefited from a scheme that you didn\u2019t fund and you couldn\u2019t deliver\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef7847b3841c4c7eadeed7068bddc1a5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e0091329bfe430193fd6ebf7f2517fa\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s Labour to a T.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226377a6161e454ddf8921ed8438676621\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s quite enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db34f871651a4affb846510d7e94173e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u002298d8860496c44f3ea489ab25e3f991e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298d8860496c44f3ea489ab25e3f991e9\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: What recent announcements has he made about Pharmac?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022338974213f384a33b818e9b02c08b878\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022338974213f384a33b818e9b02c08b878\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, I had an excellent visit hosted by Pharmac, where I delivered the latest letter of expectations for that organisation, asking it to continue modernising and innovating to deliver the medicines and medical technology that Kiwis need. For many New Zealanders, funding for pharmaceuticals is life or death, or the difference between a life of pain and suffering or living freely. Since my first letter of expectations, I think Pharmac has made very good progress. However, as the new letter states, there is still a lot more improvement to be done over at Pharmac.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0705c1b5ad94df8a5c9e6c2a2430948\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister please outline what progress has been made since his last letter of expectations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274f68917d3be47749701d8ddffb6e2df\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Very proudly, and I think that the staff and the people who\u2019ve worked very hard at Pharmac, including their chair, Paula Bennett, and their board, deserve a lot of thanks for the really heroic work that they\u2019ve done: $604 million of additional taxpayer money put into buying medicines by the Government means that an additional 200,000 New Zealanders benefit. However, the process of assessing and procuring those medicines to make sure they get maximum value for that taxpayer money is very hard work. They\u2019ve also changed the way that they operate, being much more prepared to listen and change. For example, you may have seen with hormone replacement patches and with insulin pumps, they\u2019ve actually been prepared to go back and revisit their original decision. I think that shows that they are really changing their culture. They\u2019ve undertaken quite a serious and in-depth cultural review, and I think the organisation\u2019s been very honest with itself, and now they are about to welcome a new chief executive after a global search: Natalie McMurtry, who is coming from Alberta.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286f68b65810a457185e592c41b15b03c\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: What challenges has he set out in his new letter of expectations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022845eb94f46d84720ad824900b68a16a7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Despite some excellent improvements and high performance from Pharmac, there are still continued challenges which I\u2019ve asked them to address. One of them is faster assessments. The assessment speed for new medicines has been lower, perhaps because there\u2019s been so much more funding and new medicines to assess. None the less, they need to go faster. They need to become better at assessing the impact of new medicines and technologies on the whole of society in order that they can seek greater uplifts in their budget, where medicines can actually save the health system and the society money by investing in better medicines and technologies. Their culture must continue to improve and they must finally get to a point of clarity on their responsibility for devices\u2014a matter on which I\u2019m working with the Minister of Health, Simeon Brown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229be0c00cb56244d7b0977d6873e88342\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u002247d96d140b1949399693977c7bdc25fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247d96d140b1949399693977c7bdc25fc\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What recent announcements has the Government made about strengthening New Zealand\u2019s domestically trained doctor workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022582a30eb84a14aec9ea65c97ed193760\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022582a30eb84a14aec9ea65c97ed193760\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Great news: yesterday, the Government announced that a new medical school will be established at the University of Waikato. This is more than just a new medical school; it is a bold investment in the future of our health system. With a strong focus on training doctors for primary care and rural communities, we will grow the workforce where it\u2019s needed most. This is exactly the kind of forward-thinking, practical solution that New Zealanders elected us to deliver, and we\u2019re delivering it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022264b8a68ddd249c487873699b1cbf61a\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What impact will the new medical school have on doctorate training in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264f39461e43245b18a6743a413ce3184\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: This is a transformational step. From 2028, the Waikato medical school will train 120 new doctors every year, adding to our homegrown workforce. It uses a new graduate-entry model that brings in people with real-world experience and a broad range of backgrounds, the kind of experience that our system will benefit from. This is about building a pipeline of capable, community-minded Kiwi doctors who are ready to serve and deliver the access to timely, quality healthcare that New Zealanders deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225abbd4c103ff407c9730010b79d13dd0\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: How will the new Waikato medical school impact the rural health workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e89b24ed23ad43298af3685e5e9df3c4\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for her question. For too long, a focus on regional New Zealand has been left behind. This Government is changing that by ensuring we have a third medical school, focusing on rural medicine. By supporting the establishment of a medical school based in the heart of the Waikato and focusing the model on rural and primary care, we\u2019re directly addressing the healthcare needs of our rural communities. That is because we know that when people train in place, they stay in place. This is a great step forward for rural communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242c95aba18e241eb9c127345d3d4698d\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What other steps is the Government taking to increasing our health workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db1a7e2f3cf24915ae73e15b44311e0a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is just one announcement as part of our Government\u2019s wider plan to rebuild our health workforce after six years of neglect. On top of the Waikato medical school, 100 additional medical training places have been added over the term of this Government across the University of Auckland and the University of Otago. We\u2019re also cutting red tape so international doctors can work here more easily. While others talked, we\u2019re delivering. This is a Government that backs our health professionals and is serious about getting our health system back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002277e7aecb3cf34e69bd2c4e7ddbc66857\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002206c40ca1719540f7beb8be2455072893\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206c40ca1719540f7beb8be2455072893\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CHaving better competition means that we can bring down the cost of living for Kiwis\u201D; if so, what is he doing, if anything, that reduces the cost of living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00225ad0b97c79674f368cf9b731e77b2337\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ad0b97c79674f368cf9b731e77b2337\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Boosting competition is a central part of the Government\u2019s plan for economic growth. Stronger competition helps lower the cost of living and improves living standards for all New Zealanders. That\u2019s why I\u2019m advancing a comprehensive review of our competition framework, including the first major overhaul of the Commerce Act in over 20 years. Getting these foundations right is essential to driving competition in our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e73bbb9269f7425280af1b9ff6168d0f\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Why does his finance Minister talk tough on banks, while he changes the law at their request to ensure that they don\u2019t have to pay hundreds of millions in debts owed to their customers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5c1d3a681f34097ba22e1feac916552\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: As has previously been answered in this House, in questions related to this matter, that is not the intent of the legislation that is currently before the Finance and Expenditure Committee. That legislation seeks only to give the courts a discretion to come to a fair and equitable decision relating to that litigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224664aff461864088a390eeb80fa2b51f\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Is he telling the House that he is not letting Aussie banks off the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars of debt owed to 150,000 Kiwis who would be in line for some help with their mortgages and loans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227224357912c94076816d1e8b5e623f10\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: There is no suggestion that the litigation that the member refers to will not proceed. What the legislation currently before the Finance and Expenditure Committee seeks to do is give the courts an opportunity to come to a fair and equitable decision about those matters that are before them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fd75e724d604f34a8f9cd54ce6d05ce\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Has his tough talk on competition helped with the cost of living, when the price of butter is up almost 50 percent in the last 12 months and Kiwis are currently paying more than $8.60 per block?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268c6f72093704bd882b30ce3e23e3ab9\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: This is an obvious and appropriate opportunity for me to highlight the great work that the finance Minister, Nicola Willis, is doing in regard to supermarkets. But the member will know that I am conflicted on matters relating to groceries and supermarkets, and so I will defer answers on those matters to the Hon Nicola Willis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee2794abe81445e09457f997c975e6e4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister taking responsibility for a 2015 banking law which the Labour Party supported?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3bc1e3f70564705abf95d00300b6a93\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a very good question. It\u2019s a matter of taking responsibility for an action that should have been corrected by a previous administration that simply failed to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f64103878a046a9862d70e8437f8de1\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Has his tough talk on electricity competition helped with the cost of living, when electricity prices are up 8 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ca9d3469d5d465da51e88927ee19339\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: One of the pieces of legislation that this coalition Government has passed is the Customer and Product Data Act earlier this year. It was finally passed in March of this year. Now, that is a piece of legislation that enables for what is often referred to as open banking. Now, banking is the first sector that will ultimately be disrupted by new, smart, intelligent, exciting fintech companies that are going to bring a range of new tools and abilities for New Zealand consumers to interact on banking in a way that they haven\u2019t previously been able to do. Now, in relation to electricity, I\u2019ve already indicated that the next sector that will be considered under that open data legislation will be the electricity sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c362e315ef6d4fbe8fa7c6f5209b757b\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that the rising cost of living, and his inaction, despite talk like that, has driven 47,000 New Zealanders to leave our shores last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234c45c7e4cf847ab9bbb11a85d44773d\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022716d8702e7044151beacc1f5a7ee8949\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6bd96a7b839495580bf7d6aba55764d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6bd96a7b839495580bf7d6aba55764d\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori )\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022e883ede0b23a42fba0e34c56d78cdb04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e883ede0b23a42fba0e34c56d78cdb04\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293288dca99e4436a8014f191b3d91a5c\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree that the SuperGold card is vital for ensuring the wellbeing and the dignity of senior citizens, especially in regional and rural communities, where public transport and essential services are already limited?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df4351a66c114bceb1bb0f13ce5fda64\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very proud of the work that we\u2019ve done to support our seniors across New Zealand, and I want to thank the New Zealand First party, in particular. As you saw at the last Budget, there is a rates rebate for 60,000 gold card holders that need support with their rates payments. I think that\u2019s a good initiative to help people in a tough time and a cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268eb67d46a1549a2852b5011895009b4\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Government received any advice on whether the regulatory principles in the bill could be used to justify removing or weakening SuperGold card benefits on the principle that every person is equal before the law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228405178f512a4c8b8e74e8486d982e70\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Not that I\u2019m aware of, but again, I think the member may be mixing the drinks a little. The Regulatory Standards Bill is really about ensuring we have better-quality regulations so we don\u2019t add compliance costs and therefore drive up inflation, which makes the cost of living difficult for people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3fe250f6c334c478b077379ea01f471\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Cheers! Does the Regulatory Standards Bill principle that every person is equal before the law mean that everyone gets a gold card or that senior citizens get theirs taken away?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022105b89b32c9d4d2980bd400ba897cd91\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, as has been discussed before, this is a bill with a narrow focus on improving the quality of regulation. That will benefit both M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori and all New Zealanders in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220283cfa1c9164e13a191db10397584a5\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Can you answer this very slowly: what assurances, if any, can the Prime Minister give to the Rt Hon Winston Peters that his gold card entitlements would not be restricted or removed by the passing of the Regulatory Standards Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e907bc67caad43f48c95c6d6eea3457b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Speaking with the greatest respect, that question should not be approved, because the Prime Minister is not responsible for giving me assurances, and if I have to rely upon that questioner for support, my party would be truly desperate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295d7bfcaa3ae40e396b97b25e3633cea\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is quite right. I had thought that the latter part of the question may have related to ministerial responsibility. So without a penalty, Rawiri Waititi, have another crack.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229310cc0e9a8241558cda5d8d78de9dd2\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222801531a69864a8e9bbcdf5f3dc2cec8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222801531a69864a8e9bbcdf5f3dc2cec8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve just ruled on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6a5b2c4f0944c6dbb80c22e861f358f\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you\u2019ve ruled on it\u2014OK. What assurances, if any, can the Prime Minister give to senior citizens that their gold card entitlements will not be restricted or removed by the passing of the Regulatory Standards Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f00eea764d5d49ffa92736009ab64939\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think senior citizens can actually see this is a Government that\u2019s helping them on fixed incomes. As I said, a rates rebate expansion to 60,000 gold card members is important. It\u2019s also a Government that has delivered up to $130 a couple in extra super payments as a result of us getting incomes growing faster than costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4301d180f3846a8a70d7159a4d9dbbd\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u00229dee6046ad364566b0308ade8c949d44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229dee6046ad364566b0308ade8c949d44\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: What recent reports has she seen about smoking in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00222c16a85cfc764c4a970307bfe02ae7ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c16a85cfc764c4a970307bfe02ae7ed\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E A recent article by emeritus professor Robert Beaglehole, founder and chair of Action for Smokefree 2025, states that \u201CNew Zealand is on the cusp of making history\u2014soon to be \u2026 the first truly smokefree nations.\u201D We should be celebrating this. It\u2019s easy to forget that before 2018, we were way off course. We\u2019re not any more, with vaping playing a role in well over 200,000 people quitting smoking since then. On this side of the House, we\u2019re focused on continuing to deliver what we know works and what has worked to get people off cigarettes\u2014clear, supported, reduced-harm pathways away from smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227ff7d2735dd457eb26790d567d5391c\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: What do we know about current smokers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e97db7c4910420b9e90e5faf472bbc2\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: Since New Zealand adopted the smokefree targets 14 years ago, one demographic has been particularly challenging: older smokers. It is no surprise that the highest rates of daily smoking are among those aged between 45 and 64. These people are long-term addicted smokers. We also know that M\u0101ori and Pasifika smoking rates remain higher than those for other demographics. However, we\u2019re also seeing substantial decline in daily smoking for those groups, with quit rates accelerating, particularly since 2018. We know this is a serious matter. For the first five years of smokefree, from 2011, the number of smokers actually increased for M\u0101ori. In the last five years, the number of M\u0101ori smokers has more than halved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8534df9412747679315ea69d7b3ad4e\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265786c78e2b5464f9bfe00fba076db03\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Labour Government, my backside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dc1766b055241b4a884231e2c9cd94d\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT\u003C/span\u003E: Does knowing who\u2019s smoking help to target cessation efforts\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022323d42dd3f354fa3b8185b9291e3f527\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on. Too much noise during that question, and quite frankly too much interjection during the answers, given the nature of the question. Jenny Marcroft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248bc6314b9b34dd395989d2dbb39c6bf\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, thank you. Does knowing who\u2019s smoking help to target cessation efforts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022944b5976120e4b3b845393b60ef91729\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely it does. There has been significant focus in the past on young smokers, and we\u2019ve had phenomenal success. When the New Zealand Health Survey started, there were 119,000 smokers between the ages of 15 and 24; last year, there were just 19,000. For under17s, we already have a smokefree generation; their smoking rates are 0.6 percent, and we should celebrate that. Now, we need to refocus our efforts on older smokers, on M\u0101ori, and on Pasifika. They\u2019re the groups that need the most support and they\u2019re the ones that need to be provided with reduced-harm options to suit their needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e397e2ff2e44b7fb9fa4a4a415c0a3d\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: What updates does she have on possible regulatory changes to smoking and vaping?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d361dcd2ce54eeab4b5f977f7e7dee5\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: A smokefree technical advisory group has been established by the Ministry of Health to discuss what further opportunities there are for changes to the smokefree regulatory framework, what more we can do to support people to quit and stay smokefree, and what more can be done to prevent young people from taking up vaping, and we will report back in September of this year. Of note, engagement with these stakeholders won\u2019t end with this group. We are committed to getting the settings right. That is why Government departments and officials, such as Customs and the Ministry of Health, proactively and regularly meet with industry stakeholders, including even the tobacco companies\u2014as they have done multiple times in the past, including with previous Labour Governments\u2014for input and advice on developing policies and legislation that impact them. This is a basis for good lawmaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf78c23029bf497fa7ef5eed191b33ed\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Universities\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcca1e9a05014ebcbb64d6dc4ffb352d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcca1e9a05014ebcbb64d6dc4ffb352d\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Universities: Does he stand by all his statements and actions regarding the Waikato medical school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00227a3436bab3d742a2a6a71b8b898e242d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a3436bab3d742a2a6a71b8b898e242d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Universities: In the context in which the statements were made, yes. This Government is committed to building a stronger health workforce, especially in our GP clinics and rural communities, where the need is greatest. We\u2019ve backed the Waikato medical school with serious investment and a clear plan to deliver a long-term pipeline of doctors\u2014120 more trained every year from 2028. It\u2019s a forward-looking decision that supports our health system, strengthens the economy, boosts regional New Zealand, and gives more Kiwis a pathway into medicine. We\u2019re getting on with it and we\u2019re delivering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eb6f22fff864bd49c94ea800955021d\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government commit to funding all of the medical student places at all medical schools in the country, including those currently funded at Otago and Auckland, and the additional 120 expected from 2028?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229517801267cc4420a16279187cf5fe06\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: As we announced yesterday, we are delivering a third medical school and, on top of that, we are also investing in additional places at the University of Auckland and the University of Otago. We have increased the number of doctor training places by 100 over the term of this Government, and this will increase it by another 120 from 2028. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dda3f38d7ad642bd8770c0625eed0dba\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: So is it correct, then, that the Minister is deliberately not committing to fund all medical students from 2028?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222405ee5d58a3489481cad6c585e98f8e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019ve announced a new medical school and we\u2019ve announced that we will be increasing the number of medical training places from 2028 to ensure that we are increasing\u2014I think it\u2019s going to over 750 doctor training places being allocated every year, from 2028. That is a significant increase in investment by this Government into medical training under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce2798603d874792ac02cfab5d022426\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Can he guarantee that clinical placements for Waikato medical school students will be new placements and not taken from Otago or Auckland universities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210ac1d4c2f3d4a389de4daea3f6582ac\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It is critically important to ensure that we have the clinical placements to go alongside the increased number of doctor training places, and that is all part of the business case, which has been approved by Cabinet yesterday\u2014to ensure we are investing not only in the increased training in the universities but also in the clinical placements. The Tertiary Education Commission and the universities will work closely with Health New Zealand to make sure that we are delivering the clinical placements required for this record investment in more doctor training places across New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fe77cff073145c0913f71dffe2356cc\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Why, given serious questions around conflicts of interest and the rejection of Otago\u2019s proposal, hasn\u2019t the Government released the business case already?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022257b15b4e31a488c9f0ea44dfdb30271\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister of Health said yesterday, the decision was made by Cabinet yesterday, and officials have been instructed to prepare all of the material for proactive release very shortly, and I hope that would be done by the end of the week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c55352e01fe04974bf3863fcdb1f603d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Universities\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022 data-id=\u00228786cf0338134b109e890ae013c8750d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228786cf0338134b109e890ae013c8750d\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Universities: Does he stand by his announcement about the establishment of a new medical school and that it will \u201Cbuild a stronger, more diverse workforce\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00226c6b8a1f64814b7f9f988fd992027c57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c6b8a1f64814b7f9f988fd992027c57\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Universities: In the context in which the statement was made, yes. This new medical school is designed as a graduate entry programme, which helps attract students from a broader range of backgrounds and experiences. That\u2019s how we build a stronger, more diverse workforce, one that better reflects the communities it serves, especially in rural and regional New Zealand. It\u2019s a forward-looking decision backed by serious investment, focused on delivering better access to care to put patients first. As I said in my last primary answer, we\u2019re getting on with it and we\u2019re delivering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6093d07a49743ae99f2a85d8fd4e499\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister certain that the Waikato medical school will deliver more graduate doctors faster than alternative proposals from Auckland and Otago universities, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216046b4c271c4e3bad5e34dd1f1a48b5\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as we\u2019ve been incredibly clear on this side of the House, we need to be training more doctors, and we need to ensure that we are investing both in our existing medical schools as well as investing in the Waikato medical school proposal, which the business case and the cost-benefit analysis has shown is the best of those options. So we are doing both. It\u2019s not one or the other; it is both. On this side of the House, we are increasing the number of doctor training spaces at the University of Otago, at the University of Auckland, and we\u2019re investing in the University of Waikato. This is a great day for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1cf209336e54d28a84dcc8601e52f76\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister reject the alternative proposals from Otago and Auckland universities, which would have seen twice as many doctors trained each year, years before the new medical school is stood up, and without the nearly quarter of a billion dollars in establishment costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f13ecff5d2f64614aae9f3791f98a8c7\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the proposal was subject to a cost-benefit analysis, and the analysis showed this had the best benefits in terms of training the doctors needed for New Zealand\u2019s future. This Government is not just investing in this proposal; we are also investing in the University of Otago and in the University of Auckland, because we know we need to be training more doctors for the long-term benefit of the healthcare of New Zealanders. That is what we\u2019re doing, and we\u2019re proud to be doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f70607eef3cf47e78de89d46e4523012\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u003C/span\u003E: Can Waikato University still afford the new school without extra Government funding if the big philanthropist backers don\u2019t eventuate, and, if not, will the Government rule out further funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5598019262a401997b9c2c4b01a704d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Universities: the Tertiary Education Commission has provided advice which shows that Waikato University is in a very strong financial position. There has been very strong, rigorous testing around the philanthropic support. And we have been very clear about our funding: that the Government, on behalf of taxpayers, is investing in the Waikato medical school. I just say to members opposite, this is a great day for New Zealand: a third medical school, more doctors being trained. Just say yes. Get on the side of the positive news this is for our country, rather than keeping on complaining. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022162267285f3348cbafe0ea4ec4671613\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait for a bit of courtesy from the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1539364f40c431592c95eeaa72459ba\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government progressing a project that they were advised would raise the risk profile of Waikato University from medium to high even before Waikato University increased their share of the costs from $100 million to $150 million?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257110052bcf04044a10d1cf111eab4d9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Universities: we\u2019re investing in this proposal because it has passed the cost-benefit analysis, because it is about making sure we have a third option for medical training in New Zealand\u2014a postgraduate model based on what we see in Australia, where postgraduate students are able to study medicine, people who\u2019ve had other careers can study medicine, and enter the workforce. It\u2019s an exciting proposal, and I encourage members on the other side of the House to get on board and share the excitement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270d06f64eb444c6d89e095f4b85b5389\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: In the context of a cultural-benefit analysis, how many numbers are dedicated in that to M\u0101ori and M\u0101ori women doctors in your rural programme, where many of our M\u0101ori communities reside?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b401f040b36341a9af933f7c0071f01d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Universities: that mission criteria will obviously be developed, but the intent is to ensure that a wide range of New Zealanders are able to apply. Postgraduate students will be able to apply, and they will be assessed. The aim of this new medical school is to encourage people from rural and regional New Zealand to put their names forward to apply through the admission so they can bring their experience to train to be a doctor and then to work in place and to train in place so they stay in place in regional New Zealand, where we need those doctors to be working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221247c76d242f485891c5d0ca473288d3\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u003C/span\u003E: If the goal is to create a more diverse workforce, as the Minister affirmed in his previous answers, does he agree with Vice-Chancellor Neil Quigley\u2019s decision that there would not be a programme similar to the M\u0101ori and Pacific admissions scheme that they have in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c94482a1bf94cf384ffdf7d992fe162\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Universities: what we want to see is the opportunity for all New Zealanders who meet the admission criteria to be able to take up the opportunity. We are backing this proposal because it increases the number of doctors being trained in New Zealand, it attracts people from regional New Zealand and provides them an opportunity to train to be a doctor and to then be able to train in place so they stay in place, serving those regional communities where we know we need more doctors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205006fbcb96f4df7b1bb2a8d2d82d6ac\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister also confirm that those who are concerned with equity of access to medical training might consider that more people will be able to afford the living costs associated with their education if they are living in Hamilton and attending medical school in Hamilton?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220799b37a94a409c98b3a84f07eaa105\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Universities: absolutely. The focus of this programme is to provide another choice, another option, for people to be able to become medically trained. I\u2019d also say to members opposite who are worried about the ability to access medicine: what we need is more doctors, and so we need to be training more doctors so we\u2019re able to actually have the access to the healthcare professionals that we need as a country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228da08f3551904922ad6f61627554572c\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any feedback from stakeholders, like Hauora Taiwhenua Rural Health Network, commenting on this proposal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022297e131bfb5c4e37aa63f056ce06810f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Universities: yes, I have. I\u2019ve seen significant feedback from organisations such as the one he just mentioned, welcoming this Government\u2019s investment in a third medical school and the opportunity this provides for people from rural and regional New Zealand to be able to enter as postgraduates into this programme, to study for four years rather than six, and to be able to train in place and stay in place, serving their communities. I welcome the members opposite to get on board and get excited about this opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2b22c5f9a194ac8ae75c9985e79df97\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278538a06d1d14232922f7989968cc84d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Time for oral question\u2014sorry, wait on. Was there a supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c92751e0d064929acf404a2468921e8\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. May I?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220982d58dea86488fa996ebc2245201b9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022189edf0841dd46b181e75bdec522f807\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: The advice from the Iwi M\u0101ori Partnership Boards, Minister, which I\u2019m hoping you know that\u2014what was their response to what you\u2019re calling a great idea, particularly in regard to Iwi M\u0101ori Partnership Boards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236cd13d49f1c4a26aa665562d97b54c7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d invite the Minister to give a very calm answer to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cba445aad45448e874a4073317410fc\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Look, on behalf of the Minister for Universities: I\u2019ve seen a wide range of stakeholders provide support for this proposal, and I note that many of our regional and rural communities have high degrees of deprivation and people who require increased health needs, and they will benefit from this programme, which invests in training in those communities so they can access the healthcare that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237a436d029a9496daabbb2fb65b07632\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The time for oral questions has expired. Members will take 30 seconds to leave the House quickly and without conversation on the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a8b7dc511e4452aabaa8706ffe01ed7\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002219c452ec09084b7d9817e985eb0609f2\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u2014Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00221f080c70fbc34a52915706c05f5a14fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f080c70fbc34a52915706c05f5a14fa\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. There\u2019s a trend that I\u2019ve been observing over the last wee while that I\u2019d like to bring to your attention and invite some consideration of. It was evident in the last question, but I make my points in a general sense, not necessarily specific to that question. There are two things that I\u2019m considering here: Speaker\u2019s ruling 205/4 that indicates that Ministers should not bring parties not involved in the question into their answer, and also the rules around footage in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, all parties use footage from question time and the House on social media, but there is a requirement that when doing so, it accurately reflects what occurs in the House. When a Minister uses a response to a question from one party that says, \u201Cthose members on the other side of the House\u201D, whilst being a legitimate contribution in a debate in question time, when presented on social media, it may give the impression that all parties are of that view. In this particular instance, I would argue that the responses to the Minister, if portrayed in isolation, would be an inaccurate reflection of the views of the members that make up the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI just request that you consider that and whether some requirements be imposed that when Ministers are responding to a particular party, they be required to be specific in that response so that some potentially unintended misrepresentations aren\u2019t made later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3c35d3a936e42618b98991dee58a8e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3c35d3a936e42618b98991dee58a8e5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, I thank the member for that. Strictly speaking, the answers should be presented to the Speaker for the House. It is certainly a breach of the Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 rulings to misuse footage from the House to convey anything other than what factually happened in the House, so I\u2019ll take a look at that. If the member has something specifically for me to look at, I\u2019d like to do that, because in the age of raging misinformation, members of Parliament contributing to that would be quite unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022afd9e0d8df814a56b7d15c86d8d84b3d\u0022\u003EHealthy Futures (Pae Ora) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a936cbb243a548e48300686258fd4e0c\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022c09ec74575ac4608880b3b45924c0851\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c09ec74575ac4608880b3b45924c0851\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Healthy Futures (Pae Ora) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276ee9ee17b164b0180667d637460e99d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208896eba45dd4f869be543232fb9489e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Healthy Futures (Pae Ora) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Health Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 24 November 2025. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill is about cutting through bureaucracy, restoring accountability, and, most importantly, putting patients first, because for too long we\u2019ve had a health system where the focus has been on reports, strategies, committees, and union processes while patients sat waiting in pain. As we say on this side of the House: less Wellington waffle, more results. This bill will help clear some of the barnacles off the ship while we steer it in the right direction towards timely, quality healthcare for every New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis Government is firmly focused on delivery. That\u2019s why we\u2019re legislating health targets\u2014not just talking about outcomes but making them law\u2014because what gets measured gets managed. Let\u2019s be clear about what those targets are: shorter wait-times in emergency departments; faster access to elective surgeries like hips, knees, and cataracts; on-time immunisations for our children; faster access to cancer treatment; shorter delays for first specialist appointments. These are not abstract statistics; they are the difference between a grandfather regaining his ability to walk after a stroke or spending the rest of his life in a wheelchair, whether a young mum\u2019s cancer is caught early or missed altogether, whether a teenager gets answers today or spends weeks in fear, waiting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s take a look at the numbers. In 2018, Labour removed the health targets. Emergency department wait-times fell from 90 percent of patients being seen within six hours in 2017 to just 61\u00A0percent by late 2023. The number of those waiting over four months for a first specialist assessment skyrocketed by 6,400 percent between 2017-18 and 2023-24, while the number of patients waiting over four months for elective treatment skyrocketed by 2,500 percent over that same time period. At the same time, childhood immunisation rates plummeted to a 10-year low. These are not just numbers; they represent real people: mums, dads, tradies, nurses, grandparents, children. That\u2019s the legacy of Labour\u2019s so-called reform. They promised transformation; what they delivered was longer waits and less care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ENow, they\u2019ll claim it\u2019s all because of their COVID-19 restrictions, but the reality is that performance fell off the cliff the moment they scrapped the National Government\u2019s health targets. Speaking of COVID-19, in the middle of a pandemic, Labour decided that was the best time to restructure the entire health system. And the result? A public health system riddled with failures that should shock every single member of this House. Earlier this year, an independent report from Deloitte found that, under their reforms, Health New Zealand even lacked the basic financial oversights, with no clear accountability, poor performance-tracking, and inadequate systems to manage public funds. In fact, their entire financial system, which we inherited when we came into Government, was that they were running a financial system on an Excel spreadsheet\u2014a multibillion-dollar organisation. That is what the last Government gave us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThere are also several examples across New Zealand where infrastructure projects identified and funded by the previous Government have suffered from poor management and significant delays. Take the Hutt Valley acute mental health unit, funded back in 2019, yet construction only just began under this Government; or the upgrades to Middlemore Hospital; also, the Kidz First work, which we announced on the weekend, also funded in 2019 but not due to begin construction until later this year\u2014again, under this Government. It\u2019s essential that our health infrastructure must be as good as it can be. It should also be commissioned and built as efficiently as possible, by people who are qualified to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe purpose of our public health system should be to give patients timely, quality access to health services. We are fortunate that our health system is staffed by expert nurses, doctors, support staff, and others, who work hard every single day to provide the best care they can to our patients, but they\u2019re let down by a system, and legislation the last Government passed, that has promoted a large and inefficient bureaucracy, a lack of accountability, and confusion about direction instead of a laser focus on delivering the best outcomes we can for patients. That\u2019s why, for this Government, one of the first steps we took was to reinstate the health targets to ensure that there is transparency and accountability for patients. We have put patients back at the heart of our health system to ensure the system is delivering for them, and today this bill takes the next step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud to present this bill to Parliament as a core component of this Government\u2019s health delivery plan. The primary aim of this bill is to refocus our public health system, in particular Health New Zealand, and strengthen the arrangements that it has. These changes will ensure we can all be confident the health system gets back on track. This bill does four main things. First, it inserts a new purpose in the Pae Ora (Healthy Futures) Act, which will ensure that patients\u2014patients\u2014get timely access to quality health services. It\u2019s hard to believe that this Act, which is so central to our country\u2019s health system, does not have this purpose at its core\u2014the word \u201Cpatients\u201D. This purpose will ensure the Government\u2019s priorities are the core of this legislation and will form the basis for what Health New Zealand, in particular, is expected to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESecondly, it repeals the health sector principles and charter. Let\u2019s be clear: we don\u2019t need another 16-page charter that forgets to mention the word \u201Cpatient\u201D yet references \u201Cunions\u201D 11 times. We need shorter wait-times, faster surgeries, more kids being immunised\u2014that\u2019s the job that we need done. The health sector principles, in particular, are a recipe of unfocused and diffused decision-making, and set no less than 21 different matters that every decision maker must be guided and informed by when making decisions. The principles will be replaced by mandated health targets, which must be included in the Government Policy Statement on Health. This will ensure that the health system has a laser focus on delivery in the core areas where the Government expects results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EMandating the health targets in legislation provides clarity and certainty for the entire health sector going forward. All health entities, including Health New Zealand, will be required to give effect to the targets. The health strategy will also be required to give effect to them. We expect results against these targets. We expect the entire health system to be focused on them. We also expect transparency about whether they are being achieved, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re reporting on them every three months. The situation under the previous Government\u2014where waiting times for emergency departments ballooned and childhood immunisation rates plummeted\u2014cannot be allowed to repeat itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThirdly, the bill will strengthen the governance arrangements for Health New Zealand and give the Crown entity a much-needed objective and function for Health New Zealand relating to infrastructure. The Government is already making steps to strengthen this area and will be putting in place a permanent Health Infrastructure Committee, whose members will be appointed by the Minister so we have stronger governance in this area. This bill will also clarify that a function of Health New Zealand is to work with private healthcare providers. When they get a hip operation, New Zealanders do not care which operating theatre they\u2019re in; they just want it done, and that\u2019s what this Government is focused on delivering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EFourthly, the bill will complete the reform that began with the disestablishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority by strengthening the role of the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee (HMAC) and providing greater focus for iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards (IMPBs). HMAC includes some of the best-qualified people in New Zealand to advise on M\u0101ori health. Its role will be elevated so it provides advice both to the Minister and to the ministry and to the board of Health New Zealand. It will be given a clear statutory function, and the board will be required to take account of its advice. The role of IMPBs will be refocused to engage with their communities and provide advice to HMAC about local needs and priorities and advice to Health New Zealand and the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIt is important also that this bill will ensure that Health New Zealand has a clear focus on public service delivery. We\u2019ll be making sure that Health New Zealand staff must uphold the Public Service principle of political neutrality and follow the Public Service code of conduct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis Government has put record funding in place for our health system\u2014an additional $16.68\u00A0billion over three Budgets\u2014and now we expect results. This bill is not complicated. It\u2019s not ideological. It\u2019s common sense. It puts targets in law, it reduces the bureaucracy, and it puts patients back at the centre of the health system, where they belong. At the end of the day, the job is simple: the Government sets the priorities in the Budget, Health New Zealand delivers care to the people, and we hold them to account for results. That\u2019s what this legislation is about, and that\u2019s why I commend it to the House. I look forward to the Health Committee\u2019s consideration of the bill, and I invite the committee to particularly consider whether there are other further refinements that can be made to streamline our health system. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002213c3e81b47b24b1b81d1c77321fecc54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213c3e81b47b24b1b81d1c77321fecc54\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002252ad29642df4419cb171d3055b3b3db8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252ad29642df4419cb171d3055b3b3db8\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The claim that this bill is not ideological is really a bald one to make\u2014one that directs the health system to engage more with the private sector is \u201Cnot ideological\u201D; one where the legislative statement says the name of the Act is changed so that the English one is first and the M\u0101ori is second is \u201Cnot ideological\u201D. Goodness me, I don\u2019t know what that Minister means by \u201Cnot ideological\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll tell you what this bill isn\u2019t: it isn\u2019t anything to fix anything in the health system. Of course, we recognise that the Government has a right to set targets, and it has done so through its Government policy statement. What is passing that into law going to change? It is not going to give the Government any more powers with respect to achieving its policy direction. So I would say this bill is both ideological and utterly political, and not actually directed at changing anything meaningful in the health system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe Minister took quite a few liberties with talking about the past Government\u2019s actions, and I intend to take the same liberties myself. Let us recall what this Government has done in its management of the health system. It came in and its first action was to institute a hiring freeze. They have avoided owning up to it, but doctors and nurses on the ground have told us again and again they cannot get gaps in their services filled. It is getting harder and more expensive to get the care you need under Christopher Luxon\u2019s Government because of this Government\u2019s actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThey went about trying to claim that they had spent record amounts in the health system, and brought to select committee accounts that had over $200 million misrepresented in terms of which year they should have fallen in as expenses\u2014a change that supported the Government\u2019s narrative of there being a problem that they were fixing, but, in fact, the reverse was the truth. This Government did try to misrepresent the health system\u2019s books so New Zealanders would expect that they were going to get less care. They went looking for savings in the health system and what did they do? Well, they found they could cut toast at Wellington Hospital. They took so many of these reforms behind closed doors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to draw some attention to some of our concerns about this bill. Firstly, it has removed much of the power from and decision-making role of iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards. Now, it was one of the few avenues for M\u0101ori to have their needs elevated in the health system that remained when the Government didn\u2019t repeal this part of the Pae Ora (Healthy Futures) Act. But they\u2019re further weakening the ability of iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards to positively improve health at the local level. They\u2019re no longer permitted to have a perspective on how the health system is performing. They\u2019re losing their role in evaluating local M\u0101ori health needs. They are not able to expect accountability for services at the local level. Their job is now to report back to an advisory committee in Wellington. That\u2019s a terrible loss of M\u0101ori voice, and our health system will be worse for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EBut I want to tell you something else: they\u2019ve also removed all the local voice for patients altogether. They have delayed localities in their last amendment to this Act. They are going about gutting the consumer and wh\u0101nau voice sections of the health system as we speak. It\u2019s so ironic, because they campaigned against a centralised health system, and what have they done? Vested power in one man and created four giant regional bureaucracies and removed opportunities for locals to be involved. So I look forward to the members of the Health Committee, sitting opposite, learning that that is in fact what\u2019s happened to their health system at select committee. We stand against this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u00229d8f4345d163470a8533daf2b46c006b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d8f4345d163470a8533daf2b46c006b\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. I stand on behalf of the Green Party to say k\u0101hore. This is not Pae Ora anymore. This Government has turned its back on Te Tiriti o Waitangi and on the recommendations from Wai 2575 of the Waitangi Tribunal, which informed the Pae Ora (Healthy Futures) legislation. That\u2019s what this Government\u2019s done\u2014they\u2019re turning their back on te iwi M\u0101ori and those most vulnerable in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, let\u2019s look at the way that these amendments have been rushed through with no evidence, based on vibes. There was no issue in the first place that this legislation is meant to be fixing. There has been no engagement with any of the public on this. There has been little to no k\u014Drero between our Government departments and agencies, right down to the Ministry of Health and also Te Whatu Ora. There has been only a discussion with the M\u0101ori health advisory committee, and what did they say? There\u2019s nothing reported as to what the feedback was that the Minister received. That\u2019s a part of the issue\u2014the speed of change that is coming is not evidence-based and is based on vibes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ETe Whatu Ora has an obligation through the existing Pae Ora to give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Now, these changes are the Regulatory Standards Bill hauora M\u0101ori. This is coming through by stealth. This is a t\u0101hae and a kuhu. This is he mahi huna n\u0101 t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga ki te iwi M\u0101ori, ki te hapori wh\u0101nui [a deception by this Government on the M\u0101ori people and the wider community]. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what you\u2019re doing\u2014coming through quietly, like a thief in the night, to strip back the powers, our voice, of local wh\u0101nau, community, and our workforce. If we look at the health charter, Te Mauri o Rongo, it was something that was built up through solid consultation with the workforce, with our unions, and with kaimahi. Te Mauri o Rongo is there for the entire health sector to be supported in the way that they can provide safety of care to patients, wh\u0101nau, and communities within the health system. But no, no, no, this Government is taking away the health charter, Te Mauri o Rongo, which gave effect, again, to the Waitangi Tribunal, Wai 2575. It\u2019s a huri k\u014Daro once again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThis Government, through this legislation, is also stripping back anything population health - based. It\u2019s like going back to the 1990s, I would say. If you\u2019re anybody with any difference\u2014whether you\u2019re M\u0101ori, whether you\u2019re takat\u0101pui, whether you\u2019re whaikaha, whether you\u2019re migrant, refugee, anybody with difference, anyone who\u2019s facing challenges in community\u2014no, no, no; no strategy for you now. All of the strategies that are meant to be delivered on and developed so that we can see and feel ourselves within the health system are being stripped back, because it\u2019s all going to the health strategy alone\u2014one thing. We\u2019re going to become a chapter. That\u2019s what our people are going to become\u2014a chapter. We won\u2019t have the Hauora M\u0101ori strategy, we won\u2019t have the Pacific health strategy, we won\u2019t have the health and disability, and we won\u2019t have women\u2019s health, rural health, or mental health and wellbeing, because it\u2019s all being stripped back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EPatients are the focus, forgetting the rest of the population, the wh\u0101nau and community. That was the vision of T\u0101 Mason Durie\u2014the vision was healthy, thriving individuals, wh\u0101nau, and community. This is not Pae Ora; this is \u201CPae Mate\u201D. Let\u2019s be clear. You t\u0101hae our kupu M\u0101ori, and then you go and takah\u0113 on us and treat us like we\u2019re t\u016Bt\u016B\u0101. Te iwi M\u0101ori ain\u2019t no t\u016Bt\u016B\u0101. He iwi rangatira te iwi M\u0101ori. K\u0101hore m\u0101tou i te t\u016Bt\u016B\u0101, engari ng\u0101 mahi a t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga e takahi ana i te Tiriti, e takahi ana i te iwi M\u0101ori, e takahi ana i \u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 m\u0101t\u0101pono, e \u016B tonu t\u014D t\u0101tou iwi in\u0101ia tonu nei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[The M\u0101ori people are a noble people. We are not dishonourable, but the actions of this Government are an abuse of the Treaty, they are an abuse of the M\u0101ori people, and they are an abuse of those particular principles that our people are resolute right now.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards\u2014what are they now? They\u2019re only advisory, up to the M\u0101ori health advisory committee. Let\u2019s talk about the M\u0101ori health advisory committee. They are a shoulder-tapped, ministry-appointed role in the system. They aren\u2019t here through iwi mandate, iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards. They were mandated through the people. The Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee, which has been elevated to ng\u0101 rangi t\u016Bh\u0101h\u0101 [the independent heavens], is through the Minister. They have no accountability back to te iwi M\u0101ori, and our iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards are merely wh\u0101nau voice. Meinga, meinga! Moumou te w\u0101 ki te mahi tahi a-iwi nei ki roto i te p\u016Bnaha hauora. Moumou te w\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[Is that so! It is a waste of time to collaborate on an iwi basis within the health system. A waste of time.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what the Government is doing. It\u2019s forgetting about inclusion and equity for all of us who face challenges within our communities. Those of us most vulnerable are not seeing ourselves in this bill moving forward. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2b9636b1cce46f98ba989f6aeaa894a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2b9636b1cce46f98ba989f6aeaa894a\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT to speak on the Healthy Futures (Pae Ora) Amendment Bill, and I want to thank the Minister for bringing this bill to the House. It makes some important changes to actually put the focus back on patients. I want to say it\u2019s actually quite astounding to think that we have to insert a section into the purpose to say that patients should be getting timely access to quality health services, so that\u2019s a really, really important change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EI also want to thank the Minister, because he\u2019s picked up on some of the things that ACT campaigned on in making some changes. ACT supported and campaigned on some of these changes in healthcare, because we want to make sure that what we\u2019re delivering in healthcare is based on need, not race. Every New Zealander deserves timely, quality healthcare, regardless of their ethnicity. The changes that are being made in this legislation stop embedding some of the race-based criteria into what was being done around appointments and service delivery. We think that is wrong and we think the focus needs to be on skills, experience, and outcome, not identity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003ERepealing some of the provisions in here that require Health New Zealand to do specific report-backs to M\u0101ori, and maintaining some cultural frameworks, is actually about streamlining the processes our health system works under and ensuring that universal standards apply. We are certainly not saying that M\u0101ori health outcomes don\u2019t matter, but what we\u2019re saying is that the focus for the system needs to be designed for everyone equally, and we need to make sure everyone gets access to healthcare when they need it. So let\u2019s get rid of these race-based obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also very encouraging to see that we\u2019re adding targets into the Act and making sure we actually measure things that are going to make a difference in our health system. I also welcome the Minister clarifying that the health system needs to work with private providers. Really, it should go without saying, but having to introduce political neutrality sections into the bill is important, but we do expect our health system and our public servants to be politically neutral and actually be delivering for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003ESo I really do welcome this, and I do thank the Minister for also saying that the select committee can look at other refinements in the Act. We hope that that will be a fruitful discussion for this bill, and we look forward to supporting it in later readings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u00229db608e7bc5941aeb3cf45d098da386b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229db608e7bc5941aeb3cf45d098da386b\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to stand on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Healthy Futures (Pae Ora) Amendment Bill. Now, the purpose of this bill is a really good one. It\u2019s to improve the effectiveness of health service delivery to all New Zealanders. Who can disagree with that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EThe health system, during the COVID period, was in total disarray because the former Government, under the cloak of COVID, decided to basically pull apart the health system and then try to put it back together into one big entity. All whilst those in the health service, those workers, were dealing with a country under COVID conditions. It was exactly the wrong time in which to do major once-in-a-generation reform of the health sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0893a1a-c906-4f8e-9a08-bee5de6bc18d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222412469a5e164494be7cd6231b5e8b9d\u0022\u003EDr David Wilson\u003C/span\u003E: Madness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295c317b80bb54beb97b6c7b4c0d16d85\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT\u003C/span\u003E: It was absolutely madness, as my colleague has just said. What we require, though, of this health system is to actually refocus and put patients first. We need better access to the care that they need, when they need it, in a timely manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EThe objective of the Healthy Futures (Pae Ora) Amendment Bill is to improve the effectiveness of the health services delivery for patients. It will refocus the purpose, objectives, and functions of Health New Zealand so that patients get the quality and timely access to health services they need. It will also add a new objective so that Health New Zealand will deliver effective and timely services. It will also have a focus on the infrastructure that\u2019s often forgotten over the years\u2014actually having a focus on infrastructure so that we don\u2019t have these massive deficits moving forward. It also notes the targets and puts in place legislated targets to ensure there\u2019s faster elective treatments, shorter delays for cancer treatments, faster specialist assessments, more childhood immunisations rolled out, and greater access to primary care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s on primary care that I\u2019d like to focus now, because primary care is the gatekeeper to the health system. It\u2019s the first port of call when someone is ill, so we need a really strong primary care setting. Addressing need, real need, in the primary care setting will mean that people will have much better health outcomes, which is so important. As Dr Bryan Betty from General Practice NZ has said, \u201CQuality, comprehensive, continuous access to primary care in general practice will reduce demand for hospital-level care.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EHaving that primary care focus inside this legislation, I believe, is a really important way to focus the health system, to get patients seen to, and to put patients first. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u002211f3bb36768f4841b8f2ea5a911a7347\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211f3bb36768f4841b8f2ea5a911a7347\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E First of all, we stand in absolute fierce opposition to this ridiculous bill. What we agree with, with the Minister, is that we should have a top-quality health system. We shouldn\u2019t have the high wait-list we have, we shouldn\u2019t have health staff under-resourced and underpaid, and we shouldn\u2019t have the failings that we\u2019ve seen through consecutive Governments coming through in our health. But we do, and that should be improved, but not at the cost of M\u0101ori equity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what this is about. The proposition being put to ordinary Kiwis\u2014and I love that terminology, \u201Cordinary Kiwis\u201D\u2014out there is that M\u0101ori are the reason why the health system has been failing M\u0101ori, and the fact that we had inequities is the reason why we\u2019re removing Te Tiriti from the legislation. That is why we\u2019re repealing the legislation. That is why we\u2019re saying to iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards, \u201CYou will no longer be in charge. You will no longer be co-designing what your districts want. You will no longer be sitting there having a strong M\u0101ori iwi voice. You\u2019re relegated to being advisory only. You\u2019re relegated down.\u201D, because you know what? We have a Government that believes the only way to address this nation\u2019s problems is to whitewash it. That\u2019s what we have happening in this health system, and it happened when they destroyed Te Aka Whai Ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI want to be really clear: I\u2019m not opposed just to this settler Government; I\u2019m opposed to other settler Governments that put these kaupapa in place and didn\u2019t follow through, because when it came to COVID, I\u2019ll tell you who took the weight off the health system. I\u2019ll tell you who helped their whole communities. I\u2019ll tell you who went out there on the line and took the hits when the Government\u2019s one-stop-shop solutions for the public health system failed M\u0101ori. It was iwi and M\u0101ori. It was iwi and M\u0101ori. When we weren\u2019t recognised as needing vaccination support, it was iwi and M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe have a long memory, and what we have here is a bill that is proposing to take away M\u0101ori health targets. We have a bill, wh\u0101nau m\u0101\u2014I\u2019ll be really clear: surprise, surprise, the Government is repealing Te Tiriti in this legislation. It is taking away any equity M\u0101ori targets. It is reducing, demoting, whitewashing the role of iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards. Iwi m\u0101, your economic dollars are wanted, your economic partnerships are wanted, but do not come and talk to them about your social aspirations. New Zealand First were in bed with Labour in 2017, so let\u2019s stop having that argument. The reality is no one is going to back a M\u0101ori-led solution for M\u0101ori health other than M\u0101ori, and every expert across the motu\u2014M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori\u2014has talked about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI want to share some of their w\u2019akaaro. We have the likes of Naida Glavish, who said that this is a direct attack\u2014a direct attack\u2014on M\u0101ori wellbeing. We have Professor Sue Crengle, who said that this bill is devastating\u2014it\u2019s devastating\u2014to the aspirations of M\u0101ori and our ability to not want to be at the bottom of the queue, to not want to die seven to eight years earlier than everyone else, and to not want to have the worst statistics. We don\u2019t want that to be our solution, and we don\u2019t believe that we are the reason why the health system has to be revamped at the cost of M\u0101ori equity. What we have is also Dr Rawiri Keenan, who called it what it is: control over care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s ethnocide. It\u2019s ethnocide. That\u2019s what this Government has done. It has continued to claw back the national Iwi Chairs Forum, the New Zealand Public Service Association M\u0101ori caucus, New Zealand Medical Students\u2019 Association, H\u0101pai Te Hauora. All the Waitangi Tribunal claimants have called this out for what it is: it is clawing back, rolling back, our wellbeing, M\u0101ori wellbeing, for everyone else for the reason, the rationale, of equality\u2014one law, one procedure, one policy, one legislation for all. It\u2019s trying to deny the historical context of why M\u0101ori were historically disadvantaged in the first place. This bill is creating waves of distrust\u2014and the fact that the Minister tried to stand up and say, \u201CI am going to make your health system better by getting rid of all the equity roles and measurement, those iwi-M\u0101ori partnerships, those M\u0101ori targets, and all of those.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EDespite that, M\u0101ori m\u0101, a COVID could come down tomorrow. We would all stand up and look after the wider community. This Government is cruel, and it does not value you in any way or form. I want to make sure that this bill, if it doesn\u2019t fail, will be the first thing to be repealed when you\u2019re no longer here. I can\u2019t wait to get the opportunity in Government in 2026 to repeal this bill as fast as we can. Kia ora r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u00228f4ac93c501c4a8eaf9fea08b0e154eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f4ac93c501c4a8eaf9fea08b0e154eb\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to commend the Minister of Health for bringing this bill to the House. It\u2019s a fantastic bill. It finally puts patients at the centre of our healthcare system. For too long, we\u2019ve wandered off, looking at bureaucracy and a number of other things. It\u2019s putting back health targets; it\u2019s putting them in place so that we will hold the health system accountable for delivering it. It removes the clutter. There were a lot of unrelated items in there related to things that didn\u2019t actually enhance patient outcomes. We\u2019re focused on delivering for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EThat previous speech was one of the worst I\u2019ve ever heard in the House. The Minister\u2019s one, which was the first one, was spot on. I\u2019m looking forward to looking at this in the Health Committee. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022134fd871ac4143ee8a3ad50b6b54027a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022134fd871ac4143ee8a3ad50b6b54027a\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is the epitome of arrogance. It is promoting an autocratic style for the health system. It erodes public system and public sector neutrality. But, most disturbingly, by taking away looking at equity, it really does make it about pae mate [sickness] rather than pae ora. It completely takes it away from prevention. By focusing on patients rather than on equity, it pretty much, in one fell swoop, wipes away any kind of public health initiatives or things that keep people healthy, and that is just the wrong approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt is so disingenuous of the health Minister to suddenly talk about how hard the healthcare sector workers work and how much time he has for them, when we know that they are burnt out, we know that they are going in droves to Australia. In fact, he accused nurses with the nurse union of politicising the patient ratio numbers, when all they were trying to do is get safe numbers so that people can safely be cared for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt is so disingenuous for him to stand in this House now and say that he is on the side of the healthcare sector and then workers, when it is his Government\u2019s reforms, his Government\u2019s cuts, his Government\u2019s autocratic style that has got them so burnt out and so concerned for the health system, and now the way of responding instead of actually doing something to rebuild the system and to fund it properly\u2014the way that they respond is to try to put into the legislation things to send a message to healthcare workers that they cannot criticise this Government. There is no other reason to put the health neutrality statements into the legislation except to try to put fear into the hearts of the clinicians who have bravely stood up because of the oath that they have taken around making healthcare available to all people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhen I look at what is being repealed\u2014I mean, it\u2019s quite disturbing. There are principles about being equitable. There are principles about engaging with M\u0101ori population groups and others to reflect their needs and aspirations. I do not see either of those as clutter. That is about equity. There are principles that will be removed about providing choice of quality services to M\u0101ori and other population groups\u2014other population groups, like rural groups, who we know don\u2019t have the same access to healthcare. It also removes principles about protecting and promoting people\u2019s health and wellbeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhen we look at what is happening now, despite all the rhetoric coming from the Government, it is true that patient wait times are longer, that people are getting sicker, that they cannot get access to healthcare close to home at costs that they can afford. Those are the aspirations that our health system should have. But the numbers do not lie and neither do the clinicians who are making those statements\u2014and many of them are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the targets that the Government is so wedded to, are they measuring the right things? I don\u2019t think so. We have, for example, targets that talk about getting cancer treatments, but we don\u2019t have any targets about cancer screening\u2014surely that is one of the most important targets, and in terms of equity, an incredibly important target if we want to keep people well for longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhen I look at the changes that have come, first with the cut to the M\u0101ori Health Authority, and now the diminishment to the iwi-M\u0101ori advisory board, which is just placing it as something that has to respond and confer upwards rather than be able to have any kind of say over the health of its people\u2014all of this is about centralisation. It\u2019s about one-size-fits-all. It\u2019s about putting fear into people who dare to speak out. These are absolutely contrary to the promises that Christopher Luxon made at the last election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt is so disingenuous for people like the Minister of Health to stand up here now and say that this is all about creating a better healthcare system. It\u2019s short-sighted. He clearly doesn\u2019t place any value on preventative health, on understanding the health inequities which are demonstrated through the seven-year life expectancy of M\u0101ori and six-year life expectancy of Pacific people. It is a terrible bill, and I do not commend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u002206e4e4794e714538b1090265ebdddf3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206e4e4794e714538b1090265ebdddf3d\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the Healthy Futures (Pae Ora) Amendment Bill in this first reading. This legislation is a critical step in strengthening and making our healthcare system more effective. Our healthcare system has been stymied by the previous reforms. The bureaucracy has overshadowed health outcomes, and we just need to look at the purpose of what we\u2019re doing here today. We are adding a new purpose to this bill, one which ensures that patients get timely access to quality healthcare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EIt is amazing that we actually have to put that in the purpose, that it\u2019s not there already, because I think most New Zealanders want to have quality, timely healthcare. Crucially, health targets are now going to be enshrined in law. This provides clarity and certainty and ensures a laser focus on getting real results for patients. This is things like cancer care, it is immunisation, it\u2019s emergency department times\u2014it is about accountability. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u002215d5be7b05694a35b49f2df1845dc310\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215d5be7b05694a35b49f2df1845dc310\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I find it quite ironic that the Minister would say, and the contributors would say, in one breath that this bill seeks to improve the health system and then systematically go through and do so many things that do just the opposite. One thing that we do agree on is that everybody deserves the chance to stay healthy and, when they\u2019re not, they deserve the opportunity to have access to healthcare\u2014good quality healthcare\u2014no matter where they live and where cost isn\u2019t a barrier. Nothing in this bill actually does that, apart from pretty words that are written in a purpose statement, which are then completely contravened by the further parts to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe Minister made a bit of a hoo-ha about the fact that he was addressing some sort of ideological mishap, or some sort of ideological slant that he took exception to, and he has then gone along himself and planted heaps of ideological slants in this bill that don\u2019t serve people\u2019s purposes. Two things that disturb me, which haven\u2019t been spoken about in great depth so far, are what I will perceive as a silencing of the health workforce. I think that the bill fundamentally misuses the Public Service neutrality aspect to do that. That is a chilling thing to do. Front-line health workers, who have a professional obligation, an ethical and a legal obligation, to call out things that they see in their professional practice\u2014it is not political; it is professional, and they should not in any way, shape, or form have this hanging over them, this concept of the misuse of Public Service neutrality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESpeaking out is not a political move, as I said; it is absolutely professional, and there are those obligations. Those obligations are, in fact, embedded in their code of conduct\u2014in the Medical Council, in the Nursing Council, and in other regulatory bodies\u2014and it\u2019s incredibly important. As a society and as consumers of the health system, we absolutely rely on those health workers to be able to speak out freely. I do think this has a chilling effect, and I do look forward to the fact that, when this goes to select committee, we will hear evidence from people who actually do know what they\u2019re talking about, about what the potential unintended consequences of that could be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe second thing that piqued my interest in this bill\u2014that, as I said, has an opportunity to actually do what it says it wants to do, and that\u2019s to improve the health system. For goodness\u2019 sake, we know that things are getting worse and worse. Over the last 18 months, dozens and dozens of stories have permeated through the media about how hard it is out there and how the last thing we want is for it to be more expensive. Under this Government, it is certainly going backwards. The privatisation by stealth, the risk to that universal public healthcare, that is open in this bill is not the answer. The bill opens the door to making it a formal objective\u2014a formal objective of Health New Zealand\u2014to work with private health providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard the Minister say trite statements like, \u201CPeople don\u2019t care where as long as they get their operation.\u201D It\u2019s not as simple as that. It\u2019s the same health workforce. The provisions in this bill are not about using private care simply to fill urgent gaps. It\u2019s actually about embedding what is a parallel system and moving money from the public system, increasingly flowing it into private interests. I think that is incredibly dangerous. Once private provisions become normalised\u2014and we\u2019ve heard this time and time again, and there are some real stalwart experts who have been working to make sure that this issue comes to the forefront\u2014it\u2019s incredibly hard to peel that back. We know that the service shifts to where there is profit, we know that providers can then cherry pick lower-risk and higher-paying patients, and we know that the long-term investment in the public system simply dries up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI also think that it has been incredibly sad to listen to some of the rhetoric. Taking steps to overcome inequities isn\u2019t inherently race-based at all, as has been projected on the other side of the House. It just so happens that New Zealand\u2019s ethnicity, in New Zealand, is a genuine factor in those inequities, and there is nothing wrong with seeking to reverse that. I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u002289f03a8325bf4a5d9086d946f21b2b8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289f03a8325bf4a5d9086d946f21b2b8a\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure to speak on the Healthy Futures (Pae Ora) Amendment Bill. The previous Government\u2019s changes to the health system were a complete omni-shambles, or to put it another way from the military, we would call it FUBAR\u2014and I won\u2019t spell out what that stands for. But the overall effect of the previous administration\u2019s changes have been to disorientate the decision making and communication. No one has had either the authority or, frankly, the temerity to make any decisions, and the responsibility for the consequences of that have been opaque as well. This brings back direction to the health system. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c906ae3f8a4642beb477ffe300b14398\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Healthy Futures (Pae Ora) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Healthy Futures (Pae Ora) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 24 November 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be considered by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000364\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000365\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220c7491ef6b534080bfe4d3cb6ba585cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c7491ef6b534080bfe4d3cb6ba585cc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Healthy Futures (Pae Ora) Amendment Bill be considered by the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002279d97fbe5fc84f67a3c952951e862dd3\u0022\u003EInstruction to Health Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00229cd9b76768a941f09cbc8ade5a0ab2bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cd9b76768a941f09cbc8ade5a0ab2bf\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Healthy Futures (Pae Ora) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 24 November 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000371\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b52c99fac85849ebaa965109c0503445\u0022\u003EAnti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002251d7dce3e19d404c95f014f315b47e53\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022524ddf5e1d824e56ac38808894fd9ab2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022524ddf5e1d824e56ac38808894fd9ab2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288dd5558f8a64fc1a20c71437a4d3174\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225742219e7c1f42129d7b96dee806b3b7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee to consider the bill, and, at the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 24 November 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EAn effective anti - money laundering and countering the financing of terrorism\u2014which I will now call the AML/CFT\u2014system is critical to New Zealand\u2019s efforts to detect, prevent, and disrupt financial crime. In order to work, the system needs a consistent, coordinated approach across all responsible agencies. However, it also needs to be pragmatic, engaging with industry and recognising the real-world challenges that businesses face in meeting the AML/CFT obligations. As Minister, I\u2019ve heard from many New Zealanders about the frustrations of the current system: it\u2019s complex, obstructive, and places repetitive, burdensome obligations on businesses. It fails to take a truly risk-based approach, and often treats all businesses the same, regardless of the risks that they pose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWhen the legislation was first enacted, three independent supervisors were created. Even then, it was recognised that this structure would make it difficult to deliver a consistent approach. That has proven true. The current model is expensive and fragmented. It creates confusion, delays progress, and relies on rigid regulations rather than flexible, practical tools like rules, guidelines, and notices. As a result, the system is no longer fit for purpose. It struggles to respond to emerging risks, new business models, and advances in technology. It doesn\u2019t strike the right balance, over-regulating low-risk activity while failing to keep pace with high-risk threats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ERegulation must be aligned with the fundamental purpose of the AML/CFT, and that is to combat crime. That\u2019s why the changes proposed in this legislation deliver on the coalition Government\u2019s priorities of cracking down on crime while also cutting red tape for New Zealand businesses. This bill modernises our AML/CFT framework to reflect international best practice and support a smarter, risk-based approach. No more one-size-fits-all compliance\u2014we\u2019re moving away from a tip-box model to one that distinguishes between real risk and routine business activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill seeks to make four key, structural reforms. The first major reform is to appoint the Department of Internal Affairs as the AML/CFT supervisor\u2014the sole supervisor. This change will streamline decision making, improve consistency, and reduce unnecessary compliance burdens, especially for low-risk businesses and transactions. It will also allow for quicker, more coordinated responses to emerging issues, and provide businesses with clearer and more practical guidelines. The Department of Internal Affairs will also be better positioned to advance digital solutions, like identity verification technologies, that they have stalled under the current, fragmented model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe second reform updates the roles and powers of the remaining regulatory agencies: the Department of Internal Affairs, the Ministry of Justice, and also the Police. As we\u2019ve expanded the scope of the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act beyond traditional financial services, we\u2019ve uncovered gaps. For instance, many obligated businesses now operate from private dwellings. While most comply, some do not, and the supervisors currently lack the tools to effectively monitor them. This amendment will give the supervisor the power to enter private dwellings used for business activities captured under the Act, ensuring enforcement can occur where it is most needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe third reform shifts many prescriptive regulatory requirements into more flexible secondary legislation, such as codes of practice, rules, and notices. The over-reliance on rigid regulations has been a direct result of the three-supervisor model. With a single supervisor, we can now adopt more agile, responsive ways of setting and updating obligations, tailored to evolving risks and business needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe fourth reform is the introduction of an industry levy to support a new hybrid funding model. This model ensures the AML/CFT system is sustainably resourced while maintaining the flexibility to reform and improve. The levy will be proportionate to risk and capacity to pay, targeting larger, profitable, high-risk sectors such as banking, while protecting the viability of smaller businesses. This is consistent with international practice and will ensure that those who benefit most from a safe financial system contribute to maintaining it. Importantly, the levy will be developed in consultation with industry and tied to a national AML/CFT strategy so it reflects both business realities and the Government\u2019s crime-fighting priorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThese changes are significant. They ensure that our AML/CFT system continues to protect New Zealand from financial crime, while also supporting businesses to meet their obligations in a fair, proportionate, and practical way. This bill enhances clarity, reduces compliance costs, and delivers stronger oversight. By introducing a single supervisor and a modern funding approach, it sets the foundation for an AML/CFT regime that is both effective and enduring. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226b41128156bd4ff2b430f65096387014\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b41128156bd4ff2b430f65096387014\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022b752fc504aa544c4985d962ff855717d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b752fc504aa544c4985d962ff855717d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. Kia orana. Thank you for that. Look, first of all, straight out of the gate, we are going to support this bill to select committee. That\u2019s not to say that it has our wholehearted support. We want to see it at select committee because we want to really have a close, close look at it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe first thing I want to say is this: effective anti - money laundering and countering the financing of terrorism laws and regulations is not \u201Cred tape\u201D. It\u2019s the opposite of red tape. It is a critical part of our financial infrastructure, and a critical part of the effective detection, prosecution, and prevention of serious organised crime. When we see methamphetamines skyrocketing\u2014and, clearly, the sale of methamphetamines is skyrocketing in our community\u2014the suggestion that we should be just lowering the bar across the board is a real concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, we agree with the principle of proportionality and risk-based regulation, but we need to be very cautious when we say family trusts are safe\u2014because some of them might be, but some of them also are not\u2014or that we should just open the gates and kids can open bank accounts. Well, kids\u2019 bank accounts can be used for money laundering and for the financing of terrorism. Caution is really, really important here. So, yes, let\u2019s have a look at it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOne of the key things that this bill does is it moves the place where the rules are made down substantially\u2014essentially, into Government, into the Department of Internal Affairs. Now, we agree with flexibility, and we agree that laws and rules should be made at the lowest, effective, and accountable level. But if we\u2019re going to be changing rules about money laundering, I think we need to exercise some caution, and we need to make sure that there is accountability. There is a real risk if the real rules, where they interface with the supervised entities, is policy, where it\u2019s the manual that\u2019s been written by some policy adviser in internal affairs rather than been given the scrutiny, certainly, that this place gives the laws that we make but also in terms of actual regulations. Orders in Council get scrutinised by the Regulations Review Committee and are subject to much more rigorous procedures. So, yes, we agree with risk-based regulation, but we don\u2019t agree with throwing the doors wide open.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI guess the other thing I would say about this, in terms of the levy\u2014yes, the idea that, you know, all of this is done by regulation. The bill itself is very neutral as to what the levy will be and who will pay it. It just empowers the Minister, essentially, by Order in Council to impose these levies. That\u2019s OK if it\u2019s done right. But, again, we need to be really cautious here. The detection of organised crime\u2014the prosecution of money laundering\u2014is a core function of the State. It isn\u2019t something which is kind of a collateral benefit to the finance industry and they should pay for. I\u2019ve read the paper on the levy, and it recognises that. It appears, if I\u2019ve read it correctly, to cap the levy at around $22\u00A0million. I do think we need to make it absolutely clear that in terms of the detection of crime, the enforcement of crime, prevention of crime, and prosecution, that should come from a general appropriation, because that is a core function of the State, rather than something which should be funded out of a levy because it gives a private benefit to an industry or a group of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAgain, we\u2019re supporting this bill, but you\u2019ll have picked up that we have genuine concerns about it. We do want to see a workable functioning anti - money laundering and countering of financing of terrorism framework. We\u2019re committed to that. That\u2019s why we\u2019ll agree\u2014and why we need a four-month report-back date, is the final thing I\u2019ll say. Six months would have been fine\u2014a much better idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002258e7b2a2b47d4fd8af812d88147f98ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258e7b2a2b47d4fd8af812d88147f98ee\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand to speak on the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. The Green Party, too, will support this bill to select committee, as well, and I just want to detail a few of the reasons for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think, more broadly, let\u2019s look at the context in terms of this bill. This is part of a suite of legislation that has been introduced around anti - money-laundering and countering financing of terrorism, or AML/CFT. But in this particular case, what we\u2019re looking at here\u2014more broadly, one of the reasons for this\u2014is around the idea of simplifying and making more flexible in terms of some of the regulations. Those are introducing a single supervisor for AML/CFT obligations on regulated entities as opposed to three, which is what we currently have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think if we\u2019re looking at the even broader picture, in terms of our AML/CFT regulations, we do need to see some changes, and this is something that was recommended by the Financial Action Task Force, and this is something that we do see is kind of needed. But I think, in the context of this particular bill, there are a lot of conditions, and, also, we talked about levies and other matters that have been included in this bill; however, what we\u2019re not seeing in terms of the legislation itself is potentially the ramifications that this bill will have on addressing the broader idea of AML/CFT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, understandably, one of the concerns that the Financial Action Task Force has raised is around our regulatory environment. I think the previous speaker has mentioned that regulations in this case are needed for a reason, in terms of the safety and security of our financial infrastructure, but also so that people don\u2019t get away with things, particularly when it comes to financial and white-collar crime. Indeed, one of the things that we saw also in recent times is around the fact that the Serious Fraud Office, although it got a small reduction\u2014from memory\u2014in the Budget, is planning on ramping up some of its potential investigation around corruption and also fraud. I would go further in saying that this is a real opportunity for agencies such as IRD to also ramp up and support and fund the oversight and investigation of tax evasion and tax avoidance in a more constructive and proper manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOn the bill itself, one of the things that we do see is a potential concern\u2014and this is one of the things we would like to seek further advice from the select committee and, when we get a chance, to hear from both the public and from experts in the field, as well as from officials\u2014is this idea of, well, if there are certain areas that can be loosened, what risk are we opening our financial institutes up to? What sort of conversations, for example, have there been with the banking sector at this stage on this particular legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAgain, one of the things we\u2019ve heard is around the fact that, yes, there is this idea that we want to make it easier for people to open bank accounts\u2014absolutely. But at the same time, we have seen in the past where bank accounts, and particularly bank accounts of children, have been used for AML/CFT purposes. On the other hand, in contrast, what we are also wanting to tease out as a part of this bill during the select committee stage is: what are some of the measures as a result of this? What are some of the measures around financial inclusion\u2014particularly when we\u2019re looking at our rural communities, or even communities that have concerns and struggles with the banking environment in the first place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThere are some good things that this bill has introduced. Like I mentioned, it is something that is much needed in terms of our update of AML/CFT regulations and regulatory environment, but it\u2019s also some of the nuances we want to see. I think the last thing that I want to also mention in terms of this particular point is the extent the bill extends the delegation of secondary legislation under this Act to better enable risk-based regulations. I also think this is an interesting perspective\u2014that we are moving things from primary to a secondary legislation. What does that potentially also mean from the perspective of regulation-making power, and also the ability for people and for Ministers to make those kinds of Orders in Council that facilitate some of the secondary legislation? So the Green Party will support this bill to select committee, and we\u2019re looking forward to hearing more about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00221cc713d038ad48c9bbad04ba2ef6e52b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cc713d038ad48c9bbad04ba2ef6e52b\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak on the first reading of the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, and New Zealand First will be supporting this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EIt is an important part of the coalition agreement commitments to reduce regulatory burdens and to make sure New Zealand meets its international obligations to combat money laundering and terrorism financing. We believe that the move to a single supervisor will create regulatory efficiencies and reduce some of the complexity that is currently facing the system. We support the introduction of an industry levy to balance the cost, and, most importantly, that we are delivering a risk-based legislation that is proportional to the risks we\u2019re dealing with and allows us to streamline some of the approaches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First supports the measures to strengthen our financial system\u2019s integrity without stifling economic growth. We encourage the Justice Committee to thoroughly review submissions to ensure the levy structure is fair and the single supervised model delivers on its promise of efficiency. New Zealand First supports the bill at the first reading and looks forward to the analysis of the select committee. We commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022b509bb746d3f4be9bc2a0d65bb5217ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b509bb746d3f4be9bc2a0d65bb5217ef\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise in support on behalf of the National Party on the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I look forward to discussing this at select committee. The Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee is very collegial, and I\u2019m sure that we\u2019ll have lots of discussion. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3f3f2ab3a8f40f39dad3cc04b88b33a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3f3f2ab3a8f40f39dad3cc04b88b33a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: We don\u2019t have Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori here, so the next call will be a National call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00224e8239872d004044bd9a87955748c751\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e8239872d004044bd9a87955748c751\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I just want to echo the comments made by my colleague Vanessa Weenink in her speech that we support the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill and are supportive of this moving to the select committee stage to improve and enhance the legislation, and to receive the submissions from the general public on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003EI\u2019m looking forward to seeing it go to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee for a change, rather than the Justice Committee, which, I know\u2014as Vanessa Weenink outlined\u2014will make some very positive contributions to the bill. Therefore, I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5de78ac88b54f67a488cee44a6fa07e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5de78ac88b54f67a488cee44a6fa07e\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. This is the second anti - money-laundering bill that we\u2019ve had recently, and I understand it\u2019s two of three: the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I\u2019m interested to know, and I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll find out down the line, why we\u2019ve had three separate ones and why they weren\u2019t bundled as one piece of legislation. Whether the Government hasn\u2019t got enough legislation\u2014is that why it\u2019s been torn apart? I\u2019m not sure why they\u2019re separate. However, as indicated previously, we\u2019ll be supporting this at least into select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe, to be clear, support the fact that there is good practice and it\u2019s not unnecessarily burdensome to have the anti - money-laundering and counter financing of terrorism. It\u2019s a sensible change but makes the regulatory environment easier to navigate with international counterparts, such as Australia. But we also need to be clear that it\u2019s not actually making anything easier for organised criminal networks. It sometimes sits at odds with some of the advice that has been received by the ministerial advisory group on organised crime, which has indicated not only that methamphetamine has reached record-high levels in New Zealand, a 97\u00A0percent increase, and that organised criminal networks\u2014I think the quote in the ministerial advisory group is that the Government is \u201Closing the fight\u201D on organised crime in New Zealand. We know that organised criminal networks are very smart at using money laundering as a way of processing the proceeds they make from the record amounts of methamphetamine that they are currently selling within New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EOur word of warning is that while we support legitimate changes to make it easier for legitimate actors to navigate the system, we still think it\u2019s important that it operates in a way that prevents and deters criminals and organised crime from laundering money in New Zealand. We know, in the past, we have been a target for shell companies for purchases even of residential property, and that organised criminal networks have used New Zealand because it has been seen as an easy target, in a way, to clean money. There were significant changes that began under a previous National Government, under John Key, and continued with changes to that to make sure that we had a tight system and that there was reporting. It was sometimes considered to be onerous, but there was a view that it was important that that was in place to deter and also to prevent organised criminal networks from taking advantage of being able to shift their money around without being detected by the authorities in New Zealand and also our international counterparts that work to uncover how those networks are cleaning their money around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re concerned that these kinds of important decisions are potentially going to be made by secondary legislation. In true Nicole McKee style, it all comes in the regulations, as we\u2019ve seen with firearms. That means it\u2019s not within the full scrutiny that Parliament is able to give it, if those changes are in the regulations. We want to know exactly what is being proposed by that secondary legislation before we\u2019re going to rush around and say it\u2019s amazing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EOne example is that children\u2019s bank accounts and real estate transactions can both be a significant vector for money laundering. We do need to ensure that children do not become a way of creating a false identity and getting access to a bank account simply to enable criminal networks to exploit loopholes or weaknesses within our system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe know that we have a massive methamphetamine problem in New Zealand, and we know that criminals are importing and peddling methamphetamine. They look to ways of cleansing that money. It does seem really strange that we\u2019re seeing the cutting of red tape at a time in New Zealand when we should be really looking closely at what additional loopholes we can be closing to strengthen the protection of our communities against organised criminal networks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ELook, we\u2019ll commend this to select committee, and I look forward to seeing how those submissions develop. We commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u00223f59f313162d4a67b171c0383e9c5958\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f59f313162d4a67b171c0383e9c5958\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and add my support in the first reading of this bill, the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I can understand why we have a focus on this side in cutting red tape, because we want to see the average mum and dad with a little family be able to purchase a little home, their first home, without having to go through the burdens that gang members that get $2.7 million from former Labour Governments didn\u2019t go through. With that, I\u2019m looking forward to seeing what comes out of this bill, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u00225b66cb6c330a4bb6a7d5b82ceb84fdab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b66cb6c330a4bb6a7d5b82ceb84fdab\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise in support of sending the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill through to select committee at first reading\u2014a bill which introduces a single supervisory for anti-money laundering and countering the financing of terrorism, and placing obligations on regulated entities. We\u2019ve heard from colleagues across the way, from the Minister, that the intention is to reduce complexity in the regulatory system and, essentially, to increase efficiency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EWhile I do rise in support of the bill, I would like to echo some of the comments made by my colleague Dr Duncan Webb, firstly, in terms of whether it\u2019s appropriate for some of the regulation or some of the rules to be pushed down into regulation. I do think that what we are tending to see in terms of parliamentary process is a shift to what\u2019s called \u201Cframework legislation\u201D, which means that a lot more regulations are being made that concern substantive matters. Certainly, members of the Regulations Review Committee will be aware that there\u2019s been comment on that and whether it\u2019s more appropriate for some of those rules to sit within primary legislation. So I look forward to having that conversation at select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI did want to focus my other comments on the section 7 New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet, where I thought some interesting issues were raised both about search and seizure but also around detention. Again, I do hope that we receive submissions on this, because I do think they warrant further exploration. Clause 21 of the bill amends section 132, and that has a mixture of both powers that it gives the supervisor that affect search and seizure rights as well as detention rights. So, in terms of search and seizure, that clause clarifies that the supervisor has the ability to conduct on-site inspections, and it also clarifies that the supervisor is able to request the production of or access to documents or information required under the existing power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EIn my view, it\u2019s quite interesting that the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet says that this can be deemed to be a search. The other example of a search is probably more obvious, contained within the bill\u2014that\u2019s clause 23, and that\u2019s the one which essentially prohibits the supervisor from entering a dwellinghouse unless they have consent of the occupier or they have a warrant to do so. Now, in the initial drafting of this section, there was Crown Law advice that raised issues with the way in which the provisions had been drafted. Essentially, the Crown Law advice resulted in a more stringent test for when a warrant could be granted and when a supervisor could enter a dwellinghouse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe conclusion of the New Zealand Bill of Rights vet is that while there are, prima facie, search and seizure issues raised, those have been managed within the revised text, if you like, so that there are reasonable limitations in there and the individual will still retain the right against self-incrimination, so they are not forced to respond to certain things. I do think it presents a question of empowerment in terms of the individual understanding their rights and knowing when they can refuse production. So that is one thing that I will be asking questions about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe other issue is one of detention, because there is a new power regarding the requirement for the individual to attend a meeting; however, there is no provision relating to the individual being able to end the meeting. I thought that there was quite an interesting comment in the section 7 vet, where essentially the advice is that the supervisor will need to be careful when compelling attendance of an in-person meeting\u2014not the audio-visual link but an in-person meeting. Certainly, we will need to have a conversation about what rights the individual has to draw a close to that meeting without being subjected to penalties that are currently in the legislative framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EAgain, I do commend the bill to the House, but I look forward to interrogating the provisions in particular that relate to search and that relate to detention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u00221f923c517e3d4c5ebd0abc809b54702b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f923c517e3d4c5ebd0abc809b54702b\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill consolidates anti - money-laundering and countering financing of terrorism oversight under one regulatory body, replacing the multi-agency model that it is in now. Regulated entities will benefit from the simplified compliance requirements. We support this bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbe9210327f0414086b423cd9b169c45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbe9210327f0414086b423cd9b169c45\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E [Interruption] That is a very good tactic, Todd, to distract me. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to rise and speak to the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThe Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act, which this bill will amend, was developed without input from tangata whenua, and it shows. This Act has prevented tangata whenua from accessing financial services and capital for two decades, because many of our people do not have proper documentation. These requirements have been blocking our people from buying their own homes. They are completely unnecessary. A large amount of our land is held in M\u0101ori trusts established under the Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993, such as wh\u0101nau trusts, ahu whenua trusts, or M\u0101ori incorporations. Many governance structures established following a Treaty settlement also operate as trusts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThe Crown alienated and stole our land by forcing us to individualise our whenua. To this day, they are punishing us for refusing to individualise. Holding whenua in trusts is one of the only ways we have left to hold our land collectively, as our t\u012Bpuna did. Our people are scrutinised far more than any other people in Aotearoa because of this fact. Because of this Act, we are vetted at every stage, and this makes it extremely difficult to access and manage our funds and our whenua. This is the context as to why we take our position today on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ECameron, don\u2019t fall off your seat; we will be supporting the bill in front of us today, because it loosens the verification requirements that have been blocking our people from accessing financial services and capital, and because it will reduce the amount of scrutiny our trustees and beneficiaries face for simply owning land as a collective. Therefore, we commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000428\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022962160bd28ef450f80348408976408cc\u0022\u003EInstruction to Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7dd5acb0288470cb8357320f71ef2d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7dd5acb0288470cb8357320f71ef2d7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (Supervisor, Levy, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 24 November 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bdc195143e0b4ad0922a27ee9da2faec\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cc279307709d417bb8d7cafc13235dfa\u0022\u003EUnited Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224901f574f32d49aeb58d972afd164ca1\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u002261db4301cae74097b3b073f8a98b9e1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261db4301cae74097b3b073f8a98b9e1c\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister for Trade and Investment):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6288888e8c74e709a2f318e24a60d26\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b40391c42684742a98706d60654082b\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a pleasure to move in support of this bill. Following the bill\u2019s first reading in April, the bill was referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, where it was extensively examined. The committee considered the bill between 10 April and 19 June, and it recommended that the bill proceed into law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI want to express my thanks to all those involved in this important examination process, from members of the committee through the civil society and business representatives. The New Zealand - United Arab Emirates (UAE) Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, or CEPA, is a high-quality free-trade agreement (FTA) that will provide real benefits for New Zealand and for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe Government recognises that trade is crucial to our economic success. We know that one in four New Zealanders jobs depends on trade. The income derived from trade helps pay for our health and education systems, our conservation work, and a range of other programmes and services delivered by the Government. That\u2019s why we\u2019re focused on doubling exports by value over 10 years, and growing our free-trade agreement network is a key component of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EWe have a warm relationship with the United Arab Emirates, and the CEPA is a significant new milestone towards deepening our bilateral relationship. It, along with the accompanying bilateral investment treaty, will provide opportunities to grow our trade and people-to-people links with the UAE. It provides New Zealand better access to a dynamic and internationally well-connected economy that\u2019s both an important trade investment partner, as the world\u2019s 20th largest economy, with a GDP of over US$500 billion. The UAE is also aiming to be the world\u2019s best-connected trade hub by 2031. This means more opportunities and increased jobs and incomes for New Zealanders. This represents real benefits for M\u0101ori; for small to medium sized enterprises; for our regions like Southland, the West Coast, and Gisborne; for our consumers; and a lot more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s worth reflecting that in New Zealand\u2019s most recent FTA which entered into force, namely the EU, we saw a 24 percent increase in our total goods exports to the EU in the first eight months after entry into force, equalling a billion dollars extra of goods exports to the EU in the first 12\u00A0months. The opportunities here are considerable. The CEPA, once in force, will improve conditions for New Zealand exporters into the UAE market with tariff elimination on 98.5 percent of our goods exports immediately. This will benefit our producers of dairy and of beef and sheep meat, horticulture, commodities including apples and kiwifruit, seafood, forestry, as well as all industrial items, with full tariff elimination increasing to 99 percent within three years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EOn top of these high-quality commitments for our goods exporters, the CEPA contains trade-facilitation rules designed to reduce behind-the-border barriers. This includes commitments to release goods within clear time frames, to ensure that customs processes and practices are transparent and as efficient as possible, and to further strengthen existing sanitary and phytosanitary measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EOur services exporters will also benefit from the CEPA, with improved commitments in a range of priority sectors such as education, professional services like engineering and environment, and audio-visual. On top of this, most favoured nation commitments in key sectors mean that our exporters will always enjoy the best available treatment in the UAE market into the future. Other provisions agreed under the CEPA mean our services suppliers will benefit from more transparency and certainty, and enjoy the assurances of fair treatment in covered sectors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe CEPA will also contribute to the further diversification of New Zealand\u2019s FTA network. The Middle East is a significant missing piece in our overall FTA network. Having the CEPA in place represents a critical first step in expanding our FTA coverage in this important region, which is why we pushed for the CEPA to be New Zealand\u2019s fastest ever free-trade agreement. Negotiation concluded in just over four months. I was very pleased to sign it in January of this year, with the Prime Minister, when we visited the UAE. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe importance of our network of FTAs has never been so relevant as in the current global context, where the rules-based international trading system is facing acute challenges. Without FTAs like the New Zealand - UAE CEPA, New Zealand would find it harder to compete internationally. Therefore, we can\u2019t stand still, which is why we\u2019re doing all that we can to progress our recently concluded free-trade agreement with the Gulf Cooperation Council, as well as investing in our FTA negotiations with India.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe UAE isn\u2019t standing still either. Not only does it have around 20 CEPAs signed, but it has commenced negotiations with over a dozen more trading partners. The New Zealand - UAE CEPA is the highest quality and most liberalising of any of the more than 20 free-trade agreements that the UAE has concluded to date. This is a tremendous achievement for New Zealand, and can I recognise the exemplary work of our trade negotiators. At the same time, the CEPA preserves the Government\u2019s right to regulate in the public interest and preserves the status of the Treaty of Waitangi. It also contains the most comprehensive commitments on inclusive and sustainable trade in any FTA agreed by the UAE.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThere are a limited number of legislative and regulatory amendments that are required to align New Zealand\u2019s domestic law with our obligations under the CEPA. This bill makes the changes required for New Zealand to implement these obligations and bring it into force. Specifically, the bill amends the Overseas Investment Act 2005, the Overseas Investment Regulations 2005, the Customs and Excise Act 2018, and the tariff and Customs and Excise Regulations 1996. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe bill will enable an increase in investment-screening thresholds from NZ$100 million to NZ$200 million for non-Government UAE investors; the designation of an authorised certification body to certify that goods originate in New Zealand; the application of preferential tariff rates under the CEPA; and the implementation of obligations relating to the tariff treatment of goods returned to New Zealand after repair or alteration in the UAE, giving effect to the rules of origin applicable to imports into New Zealand that originate from the UAE.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThese legislative and regulatory changes are consistent with the changes required for almost all of our previous free-trade agreements. Both the UAE and this Government are working to ratify the CEPA as soon as possible to quickly realise the benefits of the agreement. Once both countries have concluded all the necessary steps, we will be ready to bring the CEPA into force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has secured this free-trade agreement at a critical time in the current global trade landscape. It will provide concrete, long-term benefits for our economy and to our exporters as New Zealand navigates the increasingly turbulent trade world we are now facing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ECan I recognise the work of our officials and how hard they worked in just four months to deliver this high-quality agreement. We ask a lot of them, and in this instance asked even more, and they worked hard, and they delivered for us. Can I also recognise my counterpart, Dr Thani, the newly appointed, or upgraded, Minister of international trade from the UAE, for his commitment to the relationship. Without his understanding and the support of his Government, we would not have concluded such a high-quality agreement as quickly as we did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI commend the United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e59300ca554a4e7684fff9ad3b9b4c7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e59300ca554a4e7684fff9ad3b9b4c7a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea202679709840ea8093b8fe42102d01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea202679709840ea8093b8fe42102d01\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is one of those debates where it\u2019s not that difficult to find points on which we agree across the House. Labour is supporting this bill and has all the way through. I want to give credit to the current Minister, Todd McClay, for his leadership in bringing this agreement to fruition and this bill to the House, and also, of course, to acknowledge, as I know the Minister always does, the excellent team of trade negotiators and officials in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, who serve this country so well and have done for a long time in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAs the Minister said, we must trade. We\u2019re a trading nation and we couldn\u2019t survive if we didn\u2019t trade. He noted that one in four jobs are in firms who are highly exposed to international markets and trading. It\u2019s also worth noting that jobs in firms that export are, in general, more skilled and better paid than other jobs. So we must trade and we need trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI also want to make the point that trade is the way we build interdependence. It\u2019s one of the main ways that we knit a fabric of relationships internationally, along with our diplomacy and the work we do in multilateral organisations. It\u2019s often the basis for developing closer links with countries that often then are accompanied by people-to-people connections and deeper security and other relationships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis has been the case for successive New Zealand Governments for a very long time, that our commitment to open trading relationships internationally is an integral part of the way that we make our way in the world, which is all the more why it is such an unhappy feature of the current international environment that the Trump administration in the United States has so destabilised the world of international trade with its arbitrary, unprovoked, and capricious tariffs that have been imposed unilaterally on dozens of countries around the world. It is disturbing and extremely unfortunate. I think it\u2019s up to countries like New Zealand and our friends in Europe and across Asia and elsewhere not to give up on the dream of a multilaterally governed rules-based system based on the idea of open trading relationships. It\u2019s been good to see Europe and China, for instance, reaching out and making connections and discussing the possibility of, for example, China joining the Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership\u2014the CPTPP\u2014which I think is a really positive move that we should welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a challenging environment for a trade Minister or a trade negotiator right now. For New Zealand, when you think about it, all of the really big opportunities have been realised. If you think about the CPTPP, if you think about the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, the China free-trade agreement (FTA), of course, the European Union FTA, all of the really big ones have been nailed and are delivering substantial economic benefits for New Zealand. It\u2019s now the higher-hanging fruit, perhaps, and the smaller trade agreements, like the one we\u2019re discussing tonight\u2014the United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement\u2014that are left. But all credit to those who have pursued this valuable and positive agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe have to focus on these bilateral agreements, because, unfortunately, due to the efforts of not only the United States but a number of other players, the World Trade Organization that we invested so much hope in for so long as the arbiter of a global open trading regime has been, effectively, immobilised. The dream of multilateral free trade has all but ended. So bilateral initiatives like this and some of the smaller plurilateral initiatives are really all that\u2019s left on the table for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had some interesting debates as this bill has gone through the House. We had some, I think, interesting exchanges both at select committee and in this Chamber on the question of human rights and labour standards in relation to the UAE agreement, and I made some remarks about the possibilities and the limits of applying human rights standards in trade agreements. We talked about one of the most notable features of this bill, and that is the increase in the screening threshold from $100 million to $200 million. What that does is it reduces the level of investment screening that doesn\u2019t require a consent for investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EOne of the other things that\u2019s worth remarking on is the absence of something in this bill, and that is the investor-State dispute settlement mechanism. I saw that the Minister was quoted in a piece in Newsroom, pointing out that the ISDS, the investor-State dispute settlement, mechanism, which has been such a flashpoint of debating this disagreement in trade policy for quite a long time\u2014the Minister now sees it as kind of settled and bipartisan or nonpartisan policy in this House. That\u2019s great. It\u2019s something that Labour fought for in Opposition before the Ardern Government came to office, something that we implemented to say that we would not sign trade agreements with these ISDS mechanisms that gave private corporations the opportunity to sue Governments in private sector tribunals. We regarded that as abhorrent to democracy. I know a number of other countries around the world are taking this position too, and it\u2019s great to see that it is now settled policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe other thing I think that\u2019s worth commenting on about this bill, other than the fact, and kind of the central fact, that the effect of this agreement will be to eliminate tariffs and give duty-free status within three years to 99 percent of New Zealand\u2019s exported goods to the United Arab Emirates\u2014and that\u2019s going to have really big advantages for meat, for dairy, and for horticulture particularly. But the other thing I wanted to mention is that, notwithstanding the fact that labour standards in the United Arab Emirates are not at the standard that we would hold ourselves to and see as being universally important\u2014and the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions, in their submission, made that point very forcibly\u2014there was an effort and the New Zealand Government successfully secured commitment to the Treaty provisions, which are now a standard part of our trade agreements. It\u2019s a shame they\u2019re not a standard part of legislation under this current Government, but there we are. They\u2019re still in our trade agreements, which is a good thing\u2014also, as the Minister mentioned, I think, the provisions around inclusive and sustainable trade. Those things are all kind of important so that we\u2019re trying to deliver holistic benefits to all sides in a trade agreement, not just on the dollars and cents. So, yeah, that is my contribution to the third reading of this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002240957c06123b45ac8a0a02fab3b39a7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240957c06123b45ac8a0a02fab3b39a7e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party, and we will not be supporting this particular bill. Again, the reason for that is we didn\u2019t support the agreement, so I don\u2019t know why the House is so surprised that we wouldn\u2019t be supporting this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, let me unpack that, because it actually makes a great deal of sense. Let\u2019s start with the agreement that is the foundation of this particular bill. One of the things I addressed in the first reading of this bill\u2014and also we addressed this when we spoke on the agreement itself\u2014is fundamentally the concern when we\u2019re looking at the treaty examination process here in Aotearoa New Zealand, specifically Standing Orders 405 to 408. Now, in 2023\u2014and there is a reason why I\u2019m mentioning this\u2014as part of the Standing Orders review, it was recommended to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee that this particular part be examined, because it is a problematic\u2014and also could be considered non-democratic\u2014process where any sort of international agreement or treaty can be signed on by a Minister without any form of scrutiny or consultation by the New Zealand public, either through a select committee process or just genuinely hearing from the New Zealand public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EGranted, there are ways that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT) allows for public consultation, but it is incredibly opaque. There is no public forum. There is no way for you to submit. You send an email to MFAT, and that just disappears into thin air, and it\u2019s very hard to get any sort of commitment or information from MFAT from there on about what happens to the public consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThat, combined with the fact that the national interest analysis is drafted by MFAT on their own negotiation\u2014and we have highlighted through the select committee process that when we\u2019re examining a particular agreement, post-signing, I might add, it might be inappropriate for someone to, essentially, mark their own homework or assessment after they\u2019ve completed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThen we get to any form of bill. Because of the dual system that we see here in Aotearoa New Zealand, if there are any changes, the agreement itself doesn\u2019t need to be agreed to, or endorsed, by this House unless it affects domestic legislation, which is what we see here in this particular bill. This bill covers a very tiny component of what is in the original agreement. There is a possibility that if there were no significant changes, this bill could have been even smaller. Now, granted there are definitely elements, as we see here in this particular bill\u2014particularly around, let\u2019s say, the schedules, and also around things like tariffs and amendments to the Customs and Excise Act 2018\u2014that are necessary with any new free-trade agreement, FTA, or comprehensive economic partnership agreement, CEPA, that Aotearoa New Zealand signed up to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHere lies the concern that we have from a process perspective that anyone, and any Minister, is able to sign on to this really important document\u2014that affects Aotearoa New Zealand in a really profound way\u2014without any public input or without any proper input from this House. Again, by the time that agreement has been signed, it goes to select committee, and the deed is kind of done. It\u2019s really hard to go back to your partner to say, \u201CHey, our select committee doesn\u2019t like it, so can we just unsign it?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not something that we have seen happening in the past. Indeed, some of these have generated issues, particularly when we\u2019re looking at the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership and the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement around ISDS, or the investor-State dispute settlement process, which is something that the Government signed up to at the time without realising the enormous backlash that they would receive from the New Zealand public as a result\u2014which is also one of the reasons why we do not see ISDS, at least as a commitment from the Minister, in FTAs and CEPAs in this term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, in terms of the bill, the other thing that is of importance is the only chance that we actually got to ask questions regarding both the bill but also the agreement that is the foundation of this bill\u2014the only chance we actually got to have this proper engagement with the Minister\u2014was during the committee stage of this particular bill, which is what we had in the last sitting week. Because of that, we actually got some really important information from the Minister. One of the things that we have discussed is around the labour concerns that we see in terms of the kafala system that is present in the United Arab Emirates (UAE).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, granted that UAE domestic legislation has changed over time and we have seen improvements of the kafala system, that still has concerns, particularly the way that employees are able to, essentially, hold the employees\u2014and migrant employees, in particular\u2014through the kafala sponsorship system, in some ways, in shackles and as hostages, unless they comply with certain requests such as overtime or additional working hours or lower pay. It is something that is a concern from an international labour rights perspective, and it\u2019s something that we as Aotearoa New Zealand are rightfully concerned about. During the committee stage, one of the things that we did get some sort of response from the Minister\u2014which is more than what we got during the scrutiny of the agreement\u2014is that we do look at the way that we import some of those goods coming from UAE that do need to fulfil certain requirements of our domestic legislation here in Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, this is a milestone in terms of the way we are able to get information or have this sort of back and forth with the Minister. But, again, that is on the basis that the bill is introduced here in the House well after an agreement has been signed, thus highlighting the problematic process we have with the way we look at international treaties. That is one of the reasons why we, as the Green Party, cannot support this bill in the way that it is structured, and also the agreement in the way that it is structured, because it fundamentally goes against the rule of law and the values that we hold here as New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, in terms of the bill itself, and also tangentially when we\u2019re looking at the agreement, one of the other things that has been highlighted\u2014and to say that the Green Party does support trade; we do care about trade. Trade, in fact, is one of the oldest professions in the world. In fact, when we\u2019re looking at things around freedom of expression, that comes from the original Greek concept of is\u0113goria agora, the freedom to debate in the marketplace, which are some of the original trade institutions that you see in the ancient world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWe do absolutely think that trade is fundamental to our country and the way that it interacts on a global stage. The Green Party has supported the NZ-EU FTA because of the fact that we look to the EU to also improve our own ability to uphold things like indigenous rights, to uphold things like data protection, to uphold privacy, to uphold sustainability, to uphold climate action, to uphold environmental protection and workers\u2019 rights. That is something that we do see being reflected in the NZ-EU FTA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, when we are looking at this\u2014and, yes, I understand the motivation of us having the starting point of an agreement with a Gulf Cooperation Council country. It is important in terms of opening that particular pathway. But at the same time, it also comes down to what are we compromising on in terms of our own values as a country by this particular agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAgain, the Minister has mentioned that this is something that we managed to negotiate in four months. Fast doesn\u2019t necessarily mean good. That applies to half the bills that the Government has introduced this term. What it also highlights is what is missing as part of that potential negotiation, and what are we compromising. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EGoing back to this bill, when we\u2019re looking at, for example, increasing the threshold of $100\u00A0million to $200 million of the monetary threshold above which consent is a requirement and any form of consent is required from LINZ, or Land Information New Zealand, as a requirement of the Overseas Investment Act, it was something that was discussed during the committee stages: how would we be able to hold a particular country and how would we be able to scrutinise this more publicly if one of the parties does indeed violate this agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo there are definitely issues with this particular bill and with the agreement on the whole. In its current form, the Green Party cannot, in good conscience, support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u0022d47fea3c82c14b8692a2e1d0a1d5068b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d47fea3c82c14b8692a2e1d0a1d5068b\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of ACT to support the United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill. We are actually really excited to see this bill is going through the third reading today, because we really want to see that this agreement is ratified as soon as possible so that New Zealanders can avail the opportunities that are going to become available because of this agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not surprised to see the Green Party is not supporting this bill, because the Green Party only knows how to spend money. They don\u2019t know how to bring the revenue into our country. It\u2019s very clear from that speech that, yes, on one side they\u2019re saying that trade is good, but they don\u2019t know how trade works\u2014they don\u2019t know how trade agreements work. They don\u2019t know how we have to work in this global market to make sure that New Zealanders are getting the opportunities that they deserve. It\u2019s true with these kinds of trade agreements that employees will be able to earn more, businesses will be able to expand. It\u2019s not because of those kinds of speeches that the Green Party member was making, standing here. Those kinds of speeches are not going to help people earn more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWe are really focused on making sure that we are bringing opportunities for businesses. Yes, the trade with the United Arab Emirates is great, but we want to enhance that trade, we want to expand that trade. This agreement is going to make sure that both sides are able to benefit from this. On this side\u2014yes, of course, we have diverse communities living here in New Zealand, coming from so many different parts of the world, and people here will be able to enjoy the products coming from that part of the world, and, of course, our products are quite highly valued in that part of the world. They will be able to enjoy more and more of our products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThis agreement actually shows that both sides are willing to come together to showcase that we are collaborative, to grow our economy, to diversify our markets, and to support our people. That\u2019s why we are really excited to see that this bill is going through the third reading. I want to finish by commending the Minister for Trade and Investment for getting this agreement done in just four months. It was signed at the start of this year and now it\u2019s going through the third reading. The ACT Party is really excited to support this bill and commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1c8d0c8be51469cb71314592fa77b9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1c8d0c8be51469cb71314592fa77b9e\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Minister for Rural Communities):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Speaker. New Zealand First wholeheartedly support the United Arab Emirates free-trade deal. It is a very high-quality deal and we absolutely need deals of this type to build our economic resilience. Of course, it\u2019s extremely good news particularly for our primary sector, for rural New Zealand, as we open up yet more markets and take some of those tariff barriers down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWhat a remarkable achievement from Minister McClay, probably started\u2014it wasn\u2019t very long, was it? It was a fastest ever trade deal, and Vangelis Vitalis and the team at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT) that managed to get this over the line in short time\u2014what a remarkable achievement in this global, geopolitical environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI just can\u2019t help but comment on the Green Party position. Look, is there no ivory tower high enough for them? Do you think that the farmers, the exporters, the foresters give a rat\u2019s arse about Greek philosophy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265980ab1a3c1484c8edffc39a31597fe\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Just keep it seemly, please, Mr Patterson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcdf98cbba254fdd87c03bf18d266fe6\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214155e7101504ebebc8871e10e4d428a\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: Derri\u00E8re.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234de2235f27f4065a6ff32960dea6e07\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Rat\u2019s derri\u00E8re, Madam Speaker. But do they give a toss about what Greek philosophy might have said about trade? What they want is access to markets, they want a fair return on their product, they want to be able to create jobs, and that\u2019s certainly where\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ec442f066da46779fec842aa4d1e516\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Shameful!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264eea1496c0844e8a546d7face41ea2e\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is, actually, quite shameful. I mean, I don\u2019t think you can take them seriously as a political party when, essentially, a gift horse is being looked in the mouth here, at this time of incredible geopolitical, economic uncertainty, particularly around issues of trade. We\u2019ve done a phenomenal job in the last wee while, and some of that goes back to the last Government in terms of the EU, the UK trade deal; we\u2019ve got the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) and are also, of course, making great progress\u2014by all accounts\u2014with India, which is a very, very big deal for us as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWe do note, within the agreement, there is a lift of threshold for the investment into New Zealand for the United Arab Emirates and investors from there, from $100 million to $200 million. That seems prudent. There is still the national strategic assets test through the Official Information Act as well, so that\u2019s a protection there for New Zealand. That\u2019s something that New Zealand First always looks for in these agreements but, in actuality, this is a really good deal. It\u2019s been brought through fast. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWe congratulate Minister McClay again on another high-value, high-quality trade agreement coming in. To Vangelis Vitalis and his team at MFAT, well done. This is a great deal, and New Zealand First supports it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022e37d41c880b645c3ba9d118f51db47d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e37d41c880b645c3ba9d118f51db47d8\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2fbb8c41d074a748aeac75db000f117\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a08b373a8a664f598e1e41f882e5ad44\u0022\u003ECelia Wade-Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Now you\u2019ll be enlightened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afe3137a2c35403dbe26c69d03fc38ab\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, perhaps. The Green Party has determined that we won\u2019t be supporting this bill, and we have outlined some reasons in our differing view. One thing that I want to speak to is the concern raised by Ng\u0101 Toki Whakarururanga in their submission on the \u201Cnon-paper\u201D that was presented in the process of expressing what the nature of indigenous principles are in our country through Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and the fact that the Crown provided this to the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and it purported to explain Te Tiriti o Waitangi and justified various negotiating proposals, but it seriously misrepresented the meaning of that agreement as the foundation of our country. It failed to acknowledge the nature of the relationship that M\u0101ori hold and the rightly held view that M\u0101ori possess the right to self-determination, the continued exercise of rangatiratanga, and sovereign authority over whenua, k\u0101inga, and all taonga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe fundamental lack of clear communication on tino rangatiratanga meant that both chapter 13 and chapter 15 lack genuine accountability and protection for m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori and traditional cultural expression. Article 13.35, for example, uses terms such as \u201Cendeavour\u201D and \u201Cmay\u201D that give little confidence that such provisions would be implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWe also continue to be concerned with the contribution of the UAE to the Sudanese civil war. When asked, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade could not accurately articulate how this Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement could hold both parties accountable for serious human rights in armed conflicts. It should not surprise us, in the context of that particular question, what we see in the Israel-Gaza conflict, as expressed by this Government, is the implication of there being an equality of position held by the two parties to that conflict, when in fact one is inordinately more powerful than the other and has the ability to cause huge harm. These are things that are important to us in terms of our fundamental values as a country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI just want to pick up on some of the points that have been made by other speakers. We are a country that depends on exports. We are a country where most of its agricultural production is for the purpose of export and we rely on a principle that that surplus of production that we manufacture\u2014in the case of the dairy industry, 95 percent of what is produced is a surplus to what is needed domestically\u2014is produced for the purpose of exporting and earning money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, we have a fundamental problem with the consequences of that vast surplus in so far as the costs of that surplus on our domestic wellbeing and our domestic natural resources, in particular, is not borne by the industries that impact them. So, for example, the well-documented impact on fresh water, for example, and on the climate, on soil compaction, on groundwater contamination\u2014these are things that are consequences of a surplus that we produce for export to make money for private profit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022679dcc95bd6746aa9cd13807069b78b4\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: To pay tax to support the services you need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218825dd8bdb941069a3593067d9ac0b2\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Those exporters do pay tax, but that is not their sole purpose. In the case of the dairy industry\u2014[Interruption] Yeah, well, I mean, I\u2019m glad to hear the Government side advocating for more taxes on the dairy industry. If we can have a sensible conversation about this, we need to consider the context in which our only objective is to forever expand the volume of production when I think that if we actually had a serious conversation about it, we would recognise that value is where it\u2019s at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dcf7177b9e741ee9ae3cb29a5ea1466\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: And we can tell you: trade deals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2efa871bb884b04911bf2d4a5ca68b6\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: We won\u2019t be voting for this particular one. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u002270434d69ef4a4113ace09d242fb2afca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270434d69ef4a4113ace09d242fb2afca\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Madam Speaker. After that brief diversion to another planet, I\u2019m happy to bring the debate back to reality here in the third reading on the United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, economic growth is critical for the success of New Zealand. This Government is firmly focused on growing prosperity for our country, because without that we can\u2019t deliver better public services: health, education, law and order\u2014all those things that the other side purport to advocate for. Yet here is a great opportunity to help grow the revenue of this country to deliver for New Zealanders, and they oppose it\u2014that party opposes it, I should say. I do want to acknowledge support from the Labour Party, from other parties in this House, and I am looking forward to this soon passing with near unanimity, because, indeed, it is a great deal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard it\u2019s passed in record time. We\u2019ve heard it will see 98.5 percent of tariffs removed on day one of entry into force, rising to 99 percent after three years. That is a great outcome for New Zealand exporters and that is a great outcome for the United Arab Emirates as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWe are open for business. We are looking for trade opportunities. This is a fantastic one. It will build the relationship between our countries, help New Zealand become more prosperous, and secure that economic growth that is vital for our success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u00222cfbbd59283d49faa530c0c8733d30b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cfbbd59283d49faa530c0c8733d30b8\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise in support of the United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill. Like colleagues before me, I\u2019d like to congratulate the Minister for Trade and Investment for his very quick work in terms of getting to an agreement, but also to just note the work of my colleague in his role as Minister of Trade, when he began some of these conversations as well. So this really is a piece of legislation that has come about through the fruition of cross-party work, in my view, as often trade relationships and trade agreements should.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI want to comment first on the reference that some in the House have made to the unusual times we\u2019re facing in the world at the moment in relation to trade. In many ways, our exporters have faced a net or a web of tariffs, and tariffs of different kinds. I do worry that that net is growing in many ways, which makes this work extremely important. I want to cover some of the different types of tariffs that do apply to our exporters against many exports that they send around the world. The first is specific. These are tariffs that are not imposed on the basis of value; they\u2019re actually imposed on the basis of units or weight. There are also compound tariffs which are based on the value plus weight or item, so it could include one apple for X amount of tariff. There are ad valorem, or \u201Caccording to value\u201D, tariffs, and those are imposed purely on the basis of value. You can imagine more high-end goods in this category that may have a low weight amount but do have a high item price. Then there are tariff-rate quotas, which means that there are tariffs up to a certain amount and then no longer any tariffs. So you can see that there\u2019s quite a web of tariffs that exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI think my concern is really what we\u2019re seeing in terms of some of the US\u2019s actions, where we\u2019ve now had the introduction of secondary tariffs, or at least the threat of the imposition of secondary tariffs, where the US have said that if Russia doesn\u2019t comply with certain requests from it, then third-party countries, as well as Russia, could be subject to tariffs if those third-party countries do not impose sanctions or restrictions on a country like Russia. We\u2019re moving into quite an unusual space, in my view, in that tariffs are being used more often. They are being used as a tool of sanction, which means that growing our relationships and looking at trade deals, such as this, with other countries becomes extremely important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve covered, in previous speeches, some of the benefits of this agreement, and certainly others have, in terms of the massive, massive benefit to some of our exporters, including dairy\u2014$707\u00A0million, where tariffs will be eliminated on entry into force of this deal\u2014industrial products, horticulture, red meat, all in the multiple millions of dollars. But I referenced in my second reading speech that I was quite impressed with the agreement that was made in relation to wine, which wasn\u2019t large in scale\u2014it\u2019s about $7 million\u2014but, given the current tariff rate is 50 percent and the reduction of that will be 10 percent on entry into force of the agreement, it\u2019s quite a significant change for the industry. The other thing I was impressed with in terms of that part of the negotiation is that the team negotiating managed to futureproof that savings or that benefit to New Zealand. If the United Arab Emirates (UAE) do negotiate a better term with another party, then New Zealand will benefit from a reduction in our tariffs as well, which I thought was quite a novel and futureproofing way to negotiate trade agreements, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI think that a lot of people would assume that the big product coming out of the UAE is oil, but, in fact, now the non-oil sector accounts for almost 75 percent of the UAE\u2019s GDP. We\u2019ve seen a real shift in terms of their economy, from a labour-intensive economy to one that\u2019s driven by knowledge, tech, and skilled labour. Perhaps later, if I have time, I can speak to some of the provisions around digital trade but also copyright protections, which I think are quite interesting in terms of looking to the future of the workforce and the future of trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI want to speak about the committee stage of the bill, and I really did appreciate the contributions of the Ministers who were in the chair at various stages, in response to my questions. I do still have questions, and I acknowledge one of the Ministers did say they would get me some responses to those questions. I just want to outline them again briefly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe first is in relation to the discretion that the Minister holds in terms of setting the threshold for exemption of approval. The question I asked was whether this should be set in statute as opposed to regulation. Currently, it\u2019s set in regulation, but also the Minister can reduce that threshold, should he wish to do so. The Minister\u2019s response was that it would be very rare for the Minister just to reduce that on their own because, essentially, that could put us in breach of the primary agreement, which I absolutely accept. I do then just wonder why we wouldn\u2019t put that provision in primary legislation as opposed to putting it in secondary legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI do also have a question about Land Information New Zealand being able to make a determination about whether multiple payments that put us above the threshold would count as one payment or not. Currently, that\u2019s not specified for in statute or in regulation, so it looks like it\u2019s being treated as a systems issue. Again, just in terms of the confidence of the House, I wonder whether it\u2019s appropriate to at least have that provision in regulation or, if not, in legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI understand that there\u2019s likely to be a review of these provisions and how they\u2019re being monitored and policed, how decision making is occurring. That\u2019s one point where I would be interested in the Minister\u2019s future reckons in terms of whether that\u2019s being managed well or whether that should be moved to\u2014well, whether there\u2019s a risk of abuse in terms of individuals parcelling up payments to get themselves to the 200 threshold and that being treated as 200, as opposed to sitting under.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThere were a few definition issues I sought a response from the Minister in regards to. One was the reference to business activity, which, in my view, is actually quite central to how you understand what\u2019s caught by investors or not. I couldn\u2019t locate the definition of that within the primary legislation or the secondary legislation, so I\u2019m looking forward to receiving a response in relation to that as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe last one was self-certification category. The provisions for self-certification are quite broad at present. I can very much understand the rationale for that. The intention is to make it as easy as possible for the agreement to be given effect to, rather than clogging up administrative processes. However, the question is, really, how that will be policed, especially with regards to goods that are exported but where we have sourced\u2014or New Zealand companies have sourced\u2014products that are an aggregation of raw materials, if you like, from other countries, and to what extent that will be permissible under the agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI know that we\u2019ve talked a little bit about human rights provisions as well. I share the view of my colleague the Hon Phil Twyford, who spoke really well on this at the second reading, that we cannot restrict who we trade with purely on the basis of human rights issues. I do think this agreement provides us with a doorway to have conversations about things like human rights, as well. The agreement isn\u2019t silent on those provisions; there are chapters which reference women\u2019s engagement, labour rights, environmental protections as well. I do think there\u2019s an obligation on us, as New Zealand, to do service to those provisions and ensure that we\u2019re engaging with conversations and our counterparts about our cultural values here in New Zealand and what those provisions mean to us. So, again, it\u2019s my pleasure to commend this bill, on its third reading, to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u0022245ecec42950460482d31ee1d4f72df7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022245ecec42950460482d31ee1d4f72df7\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, it\u2019s wonderful to rise and take a call on this, the final reading of the very well spoken about United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill. This has been through our Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and I think we\u2019ve done a lot of scrutiny on it, trying to work through all of the issues, which have been well aired. I want to commend the Minister for his work, and the previous Minister, Damien O\u2019Connor, for his initiation of some of the conversations. I feel like it\u2019s a great day for New Zealand. Trade is good. Diversity of trade in the global context is even better. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8468b7446c8416d8d590b6f3db261ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8468b7446c8416d8d590b6f3db261ab\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u002227b1f776b64342429f53b4fcc740842b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227b1f776b64342429f53b4fcc740842b\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. Kua roa nei te w\u0101 n\u0101 reira n\u014Dku te h\u014Dnore ki te t\u016B ki te whakaae i t\u0113nei pire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Madam Speaker, indeed greetings to you all. It\u2019s been a long time, so it is my honour to stand in support of this bill.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EToday, I rise in support of the United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill. Who wouldn\u2019t support such a catchy name? Hoi an\u014D e te wh\u0101nau, for those who don\u2019t know, I hold the M\u0101ori economy portfolio for the Labour Party. As we know, M\u0101ori have a long, proud history of trading, so it is with pleasure that I support, in good faith, what we believe will open up free and fair trade for Aotearoa wh\u0101nui and, of course\u2014speaking with my portfolio hat on\u2014the M\u0101ori economy. I also want to acknowledge the Minister and of course my colleague for the work done to get the bill to this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ENow, we all know that at the moment, the M\u0101ori economy has experienced quite astronomical growth and it\u2019s not looking to slow down. This is something I think can provide not only global trade opportunities for M\u0101ori businesses but also my true desire is that it\u2019ll filter right down to the papa k\u0101inga, and people beyond the marae will experience wealth. It\u2019s really exciting to acknowledge, you know, that the M\u0101ori economy asset base has grown by 83 percent to over $126 billion. We\u2019ve got 46 percent of M\u0101ori in high-skilled employment these days, and the entrepreneurial growth is on the rise. This is an opportunity to grow not only individuals\u2014wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi wealth\u2014but of course to support the overall Aotearoa economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f6b59c45693415dbb38b5ec6cbeb8df\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Good speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278f3344ae588446c85b4d7a98258c118\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you\u2014glad you approve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EOver the years, as we know, more iwi have settled, and M\u0101ori are diversifying their portfolios, so I just want to do a quick mihi to some of the iwi holdings that I\u2019ve visited recently, the likes of T\u016B Mai R\u0101, T\u0101tou T\u0101tou, Ng\u0101ti Pahauwera. There are many, and I look forward to not only, as I said, the bottom-line growth but the exciting innovations that no doubt will come as a result of this opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI also think this is a great opportunity for us to start thinking about land development. We\u2019re going to have to do some work across the House. I hope we will get support in making it easier to utilise whenua M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EOn the note of innovation, I must acknowledge Te P\u0101 o R\u0101kaihaut\u016B School, who won the 2025 Zayed Sustainability Prize using indigenous biocultural technology to address global challenges like climate change, food insecurity, and land degradation. This bill, I hope, will continue to support innovation not only from iwi, hap\u016B, and wh\u0101nau but from our rangatahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI want to take time to acknowledge Nanaia Mahuta, who was the first wahine to serve as the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Nanaia was an enduring advocate for indigenous economic development. She understood that the underlying values that drive a M\u0101ori economy will only benefit Aotearoa wh\u0101nui. In recent travels for parliamentary exchanges, to see the behaviour of our members around the world when they hear of the growth of the M\u0101ori economy is one of excitement. The world is ready to do business from a kaupapa M\u0101ori view. Why? Because it\u2019s about kaitiakitanga and it\u2019s about intergenerational planning. Everyone wants business that\u2019s going to endure for generations, and that\u2019s what I hope this bill will encourage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EOf course, with that comes kia t\u016Bpato, or a concern that we must protect, that I think we must commit to protecting as a Parliament, and those are issues around M\u0101ori intellectual property and ensuring that the taonga that will be taken to the world and will benefit our economy are protected by us all, so that they\u2019re not abused and so that the concepts maintain their integrity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHe whakakapi, I do believe that M\u0101ori and international trade and agreements will be winning factors for New Zealand, for Aotearoa wh\u0101nui. Once again, I\u2019m really excited for the opportunities this provides for entrepreneurs, for wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and individuals, and, on behalf of the Labour Party, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u00226c46d6792cda40e9868d5709a7316981\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c46d6792cda40e9868d5709a7316981\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E We are just so focused, on this side of the House, on reducing the cost of living, and our strategy, in part, is all about going for growth. We want to double the value of our exports over this 10-year period, and we\u2019ve seen great progress with the EU free-trade agreement, and now here we are with this record-breaking trade agreement that has been delivered in only around four months. It is a fantastic effort. I want to commend the team from Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade\u2014not just those that travel, those that work at home, those that are permanently based over here. It is a remarkable achievement. It will deliver more money into Kiwi households, more money for nurses and doctors and teachers. Higher incomes\u2014that\u2019s what we believe in. I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u00228158d04ada9f430fb3b380ee65131671\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228158d04ada9f430fb3b380ee65131671\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Labour Party to speak in favour of the United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill. As a speaker before me commented, it just rolls off the tongue, that one!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EFirstly, I do have to give my congratulations to the Minister, the Hon Todd McClay. Good job. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade negotiators, who no doubt worked tirelessly on this, will no doubt be pleased to see their hard work has come to fruition. But I also want to acknowledge, as a number of speakers across the House have also acknowledged this evening, the work that the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor did when he was our trade Minister\u2014Labour\u2019s trade Minister\u2014to build towards this agreement, when he led a trade delegation to the United Arab Emirates (UAE) in 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, studious members on the other side of the House will be well aware of all of the work that the previous Labour Government did to progress historic free-trade agreements, like the agreement with the European Union, the UK, and the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership. It\u2019s good to see that the lessons have been learnt and our strong legacy in that space. We cut the path, and that work can be continued.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s worth, I think, as one of the last speeches at the third reading of this bill, to just recap in bullet points over some of what this bill does. It eliminates the tariffs on the majority of export goods, gives New Zealand service exporters greater access to the UAE, and facilitates investment between both countries. The New Zealand - United Arab Emirates Bilateral Investment Treaty associated with this bill enters into force when this bill is ratified and will provide a rules-based framework for investors. It will also eliminate tariffs and ensure duty-free status on 98.5 percent of exported goods, rising to 99 percent in three years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement (CEPA) provides sector-specific advantages, particularly for meat, dairy, and horticulture, which have previously faced barriers in the United Arab Emirates. After saying it rolls off the tongue, all of a sudden, it doesn\u2019t! The deal, also worth noting, removes a 5 percent tariff on New Zealand honey. Of course, I\u2019m partial, as a New Zealander, but we do have the best honey in the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, this is a third reading debate, so it looks like I have at least 10 minutes of content to cover in here. One of the things that I wanted to acknowledge was, unlike some other bills that have passed through the House in this term of Government, this bill was able to enjoy a select committee process, and that\u2019s very important for the good passage of legislative change and new legislation. There were a number of submissions: 25 submissions from groups and individuals, and two submitters gave oral submissions to the select committee. There were a number of concerns that were raised at that select committee around the levels of investment screening, around the threshold shift from $100\u00A0million to $200 million; concerns raised about whether there would be public transparency or enough public transparency. A number of submitters also sought out, as is often the case, policy changes that aren\u2019t actually within the scope of the bill that the select committee is considering at the time. The select committee process didn\u2019t recommend any amendments to the bill, and, as would be suggested by the Labour Party\u2019s ongoing support, we did not provide a different view to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EAnother thing that I think is very important to mention here, which my colleagues have referred to also, is the place of the Treaty of Waitangi in this agreement, because the CEPA, like New Zealand\u2019s other trade agreements, makes extensive reference to the New Zealand Government\u2019s Treaty of Waitangi obligations and protects the Treaty\u2019s place at the core of our constitution and the place of M\u0101ori as tangata whenua in New Zealand. I\u2019m not sure how Todd McClay snuck that one past David Seymour. If I\u2019m honest, I\u2019m sure nothing infuriates him more than the fact that we can be simultaneously a prosperous country, trading with the world, and recognise the unique and important place the Treaty of Waitangi and our indigenous people in our trade agreements, despite his efforts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EEarlier in the speeches this evening, at this third reading, my colleague the Hon Phil Twyford mentioned the Trump tariffs. In an environment where some States are shying away from multilateral free trade, it is really encouraging to see New Zealand continue to negotiate and make gains in new markets. When some States have decided to cut off free trade and raise tariffs, New Zealand is prioritising its trade access and its ability to play a role in a global economy. This agreement eliminates tariffs on 99 percent of goods exported to the United Arab Emirates, which means more money flowing into New Zealand through our outstanding exporters. As a number of speakers have talked about in speeches tonight, one in four people in our workforce are involved in trade. Those jobs are high-value jobs. They are high skilled, and they pay well, and more jobs like that would be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EAnother speaker, my colleague Cushla Tangaere-Manuel, mentioned the M\u0101ori economy and the strength of the M\u0101ori economy, which has a really proud and long history of trade going back centuries, and a focus needing to be on sustainability, on climate change, and on innovation, and how many leaders we have in our M\u0101ori economy working in those spaces. How important it is, with trade agreements like this, and with any work and study that we support in that space, that we protect the taonga and the intellectual property, the IP, that goes into that work and that comes out of it. But also, in protecting that, we make sure that there is a flow back the other way, that the rewards come back to the papa k\u0101inga, back to the people who have done that work, who have led that work in those places.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI want to finish by also particularly highlighting the chapter in the Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement relating to digital trade, because New Zealand\u2019s digital and technology sector is a rapidly growing area that produces serious gains for Aotearoa New Zealand. As the Labour spokesperson for our creative economy, what I want to see is that we can make it easier for New Zealand\u2019s digital exporters to access new markets, and agreements like this do make that possible. We know that New Zealand\u2019s meat and dairy industry will benefit significantly from this agreement, but it is worth highlighting also that the benefit will not only be felt there but all the way across our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EWe know that this agreement will open up billions of dollars in trade for New Zealand, so we like to see increased representation. It would be good, as far as representation and in future trade delegations, to really make sure that that creative economy, that our digital pioneers and innovators, are well represented in those delegations that travel overseas. I know the Prime Minister has got himself into trouble recently over some of the comments he makes about those delegations and those groups, but really a strong focus on our digital economy and on leaders in that space will serve us very well for future trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI really want to just finish this speech tonight by acknowledging the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, our trade Minister, for getting this process started; the current Minister, for his fast work, and in the hope that he might have some tips for Minister Goldsmith, who has promised immediate action but so far\u2014in the media sector and media space\u2014hasn\u2019t been able to deliver anything meaningful. If the Minister for Trade could pass on some tips about how to get things done in four months, that would be greatly appreciated by a media sector that currently has a Minister that is not doing anything for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EBut most of all, I want to thank the staff who carried this agreement through, who saw it come to fruition as quickly as it did. We know the huge amount of work that would have taken. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f36d65d241064fba8afcb4f497a8a595\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f36d65d241064fba8afcb4f497a8a595\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill, because the United Arab Emirates trade deal is so important for strengthening our economy, creating jobs and opportunity across New Zealand\u2014and especially in my region, Hawke\u2019s Bay, the fruit bowl of New Zealand, where we produce the best fruit in the world. We need markets to send that fruit to, markets where they will pay a premium for our fruit and help us grow our businesses here in New Zealand, and put more confidence back into our horticulture sector, our dairy sector, and our red meat sector. This is good for exporters, it\u2019s good for trade, it\u2019s good for New Zealand. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022393c010928fa4631ba84db48c257f72b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First\u00A08.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000550\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b87151609d934f8a9a9a818aac366735\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b87151609d934f8a9a9a818aac366735\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, it is now time for us to suspend for the dinner break. We will see you back here at 7.30.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.58 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fb2049368cf14d9ebf374fd08319c539\u0022\u003ELegislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002202b440e5c5214a03867d0d6d1419c0b0\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000556\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 17 July.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002263bec03960354046a9165ef47a9592c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263bec03960354046a9165ef47a9592c5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, this was an interrupted debate, and we\u2019re on to call No. 2, a Labour Party call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u00220701f0daaa1a458dab1107d5e033a52b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220701f0daaa1a458dab1107d5e033a52b\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s my absolute pleasure to speak on the Legislation Amendment Bill, which brings the House together in procedural unity, I believe. I would like to congratulate the Minister in charge of the bill, the Hon Judith Collins. I also think it\u2019s actually quite poetic, because when the Minister was chair of the Regulations Reviews Committee back in February 2023, I sat as a member as well. The committee presented a report entitled Briefing on best practice for publication of secondary legislation to the House of Representatives, which included principles that reflected the rule of law, that law should be publicly accessible, and that most\u2014most\u2014secondary legislation must be published on a website. I think that report made clear the principle of access to legislation. But the important word there is \u201Cmost\u201D, and I think that this is the bill that takes us even further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe problem that we\u2019ve faced in the past is that the Parliamentary Counsel Office, who\u2019ve been responsible for drafting most legislation, have also been responsible for publishing it on the New Zealand Legislation website. However, there is a raft of other secondary legislation produced by around 120 agencies. Some are published in the Gazette, some in newspapers, and some not at all. Of course, this creates a number of issues for individuals, but also businesses and other entities who are looking to find out what the law is. It makes it very hard to understand what the law is, it increases cost to individuals and other entities in terms of spending time locating the law, it reduces Parliament\u2019s oversight of secondary legislation, and it also makes it considerably harder for us to meet our international obligations, which more and more are asking us to ensure that all law, including that raft of secondary legislation, is freely available online.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe work in terms of where we are now actually started back in 2016, or actually potentially even before that, when two reports were produced which, in principle, asked for the publication of legislation to be accessible in a single point. In 2016, the Government agreed that that would be what we would implement. It\u2019s extremely significant, because up until the passage of this legislation, essentially, there was some law that was not published at all. The direction to members of the public was that you should find out which entity was responsible for the regulation, write to them or communicate with them, and request a copy, which is really unbelievable in terms of everyday laws that would apply to people. I think the beauty of this legislation, if I could use that word, lies in clause\u00A020, which inserts new section 77 and 77A, which essentially mean that secondary legislation is not law until it is published. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ENow, while I do support the legislation wholly, I am glad that it\u2019s proceeding to select committee, because there are a few issues that I will enjoy discussing with members around the table when it comes to select committee. One is around the repeal of section 73. This is about what\u2019s called prospective consolidation, and that\u2019s when members of the public can see what a bill will look like when its provisions come into force. I actually think that\u2019s quite a valuable tool for the public to have. That section\u2019s been repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe second thing I\u2019d like to speak about at the select committee is the repeal of Part 4 of the Legislation Act, which pre-empts the coming into law or the passage into law of the Regulatory Standards Bill. While I can understand the desire to want to minimise administrative difficulties if you believe another law is going to come into place, I do just want to make sure that we\u2019ve thought through the things that that part covers and protects that we may want to continue protecting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe final thing that I\u2019d like to have a conversation at select committee about is exemptions. I did want to look at the extension of exemptions, but also the rationale in terms of for what reason those extensions will be permitted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House. I\u2019m absolutely delighted that we\u2019ll get a chance to talk more about secondary legislation in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff1a062c0cc142cb94d901318707e176\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff1a062c0cc142cb94d901318707e176\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party to speak on the Legislation Amendment Bill. I want to just preface this by saying that\u2014and also kind of thank the Parliamentary Counsel Office, in particular for the work they are currently doing on the legislation website, which is fantastic. We managed to have a preview of what it looks like. I am particularly excited by the way they\u2019re able to draw on amendments and past amendments, and as a way of being able to cross-reference more easily as a result of that. That partly shapes the foundation of what we\u2019re looking at here in terms of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think the other really important element is, as we\u2019re seeing with the update to the legislation website, we\u2019re also seeing the need for us to be able to access secondary legislation in a really easy way. A few of the things that are going to take place, hopefully, as a result of this legislation is, number one, the use of a standardised format when we\u2019re looking at the creation of secondary legislation by various agencies and ministries. There is a lot of secondary legislation to keep track of, and, over time, this will be all brought in and cross-referenced within the legislation website that is being maintained by the Parliamentary Counsel Office, or the PCO. With that, it also, again, means that for those to be active, we\u2019re able to use that legislation website to be able to keep checks on these secondary legislations as well, and, over time, that will be brought in as part of that aggregating tool. That\u2019s a substantial portion of this particular omnibus bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWith that, again, the Green Party is supporting this bill to select committee. It doesn\u2019t mean that we don\u2019t have concerns on certain areas of this bill. Now, there are things\u2014more\u2014that we would like to tease out as part of the select committee\u2014[Interruption] We did say support to select committee. Part of that is to do with in terms of accessibility. What we have seen in terms of Parliament, and this is something that we have spoken on and questioned as part of the Estimates process, is around accessibility to Parliament and, in this case, accessibility to legislation and secondary legislation by the disabled communities, and how that would be able to enhance as a result of this process. If we\u2019re putting in all of this effort into it to be able to make our legislation easier to use and more user-friendly, and particularly in the context of secondary legislation, it will be really important and I will be really interested to know, through the select committee process, what that would potentially look like broadly, in terms of accessibility and inclusivity, when it comes to this particular legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, there are additional things that have been mentioned, because it is an omnibus bill, although the update to the legislation website and the changes to the way that we keep track of and also publish secondary legislation is hugely exciting\u2014and the Attorney-General knows how excited I am about that particular component. The other components of this, particularly in terms of supporting\u2014oh, and what I didn\u2019t mention is by having the ability to keep track of secondary legislation, it will also, hopefully, improve the function and improve the work of the Regulations Review Committee here in Parliament as well, which is something that is also incredibly exciting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn saying that, there are other elements of this bill that deserve attention, particularly in the context of the select committee process, and the previous speaker has already spoken on, in terms of the repeal of Part 4 of the Legislation Act 2019. I think it is a concern that while we are still in the process\u2014and this is something that I haven\u2019t seen that takes place in other bills, where one particular bill anticipates the passing or anticipates the enactment of another bill that is still currently going through the House and is being repealed as a result of that and, therefore, in some ways creates an interesting little limbo where it\u2019s uncertain as to the exact nature of the repealed clause and how that would be assessed as part of the select committee. So that\u2019s just one example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOverall, the Green Party\u2019s supporting this to select committee, and we would love to hear more about it as part of that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8af9b81c4af446b8c1d1bf4689033d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8af9b81c4af446b8c1d1bf4689033d7\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT to speak on the Legislation Amendment Bill. Obviously, in ACT, we\u2019re not big on more laws and regulations, but this is a very, very sensible bill which actually does ensure that the New Zealand public actually has complete visibility over the laws and regulations that we pass in this place. I think, actually, most people will be quite surprised to know that there isn\u2019t a single repository of secondary legislation where, in this day and age, you can actually just go to look up what might affect you and actually have it at your fingertip. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EThis is a very sensible bill. It\u2019s actually making a very sensible change. I know it\u2019s taken some time, and I understand the complexities of why it\u2019s taken a while to get to this point. But we\u2019re going to wholeheartedly support this, because it is very important that in our democracy, we actually do have transparency around particularly secondary legislation. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u00220886a390420a4c57aefa1f9ecf964e86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220886a390420a4c57aefa1f9ecf964e86\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is about making legislation and regulations more accessible to New Zealanders. That is a great attitude. That is what Government should be all about: trying to help New Zealanders to understand the laws which govern them. It\u2019s common sense, it\u2019s democratic, it\u2019s efficient, and it\u2019s effective. We often say that ignorance of the law is no excuse, but when we hide the law, that makes it very, very difficult for people to understand it. So if we acknowledge that, then that means that it is our responsibility to make that law more accessible, and that is what this is all about. It\u2019s an obligation on lawmakers, if you like, to make sure that the law is available in plain language and with a plain, easy way to get hold of it. This legislation sets clear requirements on the Parliamentary Counsel Office and agencies to deliver on that attitude and those objectives, and I\u2019m delighted to commend the Legislation Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220337e4674be7448c99050a0dd147137a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b58616b8761f4f73b5e01cc01aa73eb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b58616b8761f4f73b5e01cc01aa73eb5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I think the next speaker is actually supposed to be from the National Party, on my schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00222ca0bb8887474442898a26a3ceb3d980\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ca0bb8887474442898a26a3ceb3d980\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Have I got the call, Mr Speaker? Thank you very much. It gives me great pleasure to rise on behalf of the National Party and speak in favour of the Legislation Amendment Bill. As has been outlined by previous speakers on this, this is a single broad policy to promote high-quality legislation for New Zealand that\u2019s easy to find, use, and understand, which I can\u2019t believe that, in 2025, we haven\u2019t got. But we\u2019ve got a Minister in charge, in the Hon Judith Collins, who\u2019s sorting it out and getting it fixed. So it gives me great pleasure to commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002292a88bfbd8574b32ae2c845125fd41d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292a88bfbd8574b32ae2c845125fd41d5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. What an appalling speech that Tom Rutherford barely remembered to stand up for. Here\u2019s the funny thing about this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c41b5cdfa1b84b31a2dbdb7c28db18b2\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Put your 1970s tie back on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9cf4c5e378a4e989295e61d1ffb00ac\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that no one\u2014I\u2019d rather have a \u201970s tie than \u201970s values, Mr Simpson. The funny thing about the Legislation Amendment Bill is that it repeals Part 4 of the Legislation Act 2019. I just wanted to talk a little bit about the history of this Act. The Legislation Act is 100 percent about regulatory quality. It is about legislation and secondary legislation and getting it right. It was worked on under the National Party. It\u2019s a bipartisan piece of legislation. It was introduced on 20 June 2017, went to the Justice Committee in June 2018, the committee of the whole House in 2019, and it got Royal assent a few weeks later, in October 2019. So it took a little bit over two years to pass a top-quality piece of legislation in a bipartisan manner that was about legislative quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOne of the things that this bill does is it repeals Part 4 of the Legislation Act. Do you know what Part 4 is about? It is about accountability to this House for legislative quality. It is being repealed because of the shocking piece of legislation that is being shoved through this House at speed, called the Regulatory Standards Bill. The fact of the matter is that much of what is done in that bill\u2014the good bits of that bill, the bits that actually have some merit\u2014is already in the Legislation Act that we passed around this House with a consensus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe fact of the matter is that if you look at section 103 of the Act, that is now being repealed by this piece of legislation, \u201CChief executives must prepare and publish disclosure statements for Government-initiated legislation\u201D. Well, that\u2019s not a million miles from some of the suggestions in the Regulatory Standards Bill. Then, if you go on a bit further, there\u2019s a whole lot of stuff around regulatory disclosure statements, and then \u201CChief executives must act independently and include statement of responsibility\u201D. That is pretty much exactly clause 23 of the Regulatory Standards Bill, which requires consistency, accountability statements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EA whole lot of stuff that\u2019s going on that David Seymour\u2019s waving his arms about, saying, \u201CWe must do this.\u201D\u2014wake up! We\u2019ve done it already. You just want to have a little political win, have your ideological, right-wing, libertarian version of regulatory quality, when what we did over many years in this House\u2014and this bill was considered also and shepherded by the Regulations Review Committee, and I remember working on it there, very carefully, diligently, with fantastic advice from the clerks\u2019 counsel. Yet here we are now, doing away with a system, which also, by the way, had a framework for the responsible Minister\u2014that is to say, the Minister responsible for regulatory stewardship\u2014and the Attorney-General issuing guidance as to what good regulatory quality was. So we\u2019ve got a system here that is well-thought-out and\u2014this is the real point\u2014is politically neutral, isn\u2019t imbued with neoliberal principles, isn\u2019t embarrassing every other party in the House other than the ACT Party, but, because of the coalition agreement, we\u2019re doing away with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s only one small part of this bill. The fact of the matter is that we know that the coalition parties and the National Party and Christopher Luxon have acceded to the demands of the ACT Party in this, so the Regulatory Standards Bill will pass, and this Part 4 of the Act\u2014a very good part of the Act that, incidentally, hasn\u2019t yet come into force\u2014will become a dead letter, so it\u2019s no use. It\u2019s sitting in this bill after that, but it may well come back, because we intend to repeal the Regulatory Standards Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe rest of this piece of legislation is OK\u2014is OK. It\u2019ll do. It\u2019s a tidy-up. It modernises the legislative framework, and that\u2019s a good thing. But Part 4, there was a solution there already, and now you\u2019re getting rid of it. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00221024b4a5888b460490d9274b1164f8fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221024b4a5888b460490d9274b1164f8fa\u0022\u003EHon MELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to rise and support this Legislation Amendment Bill in the first reading. I think what\u2019s important is that this actually goes back to 2014, based on two inquiries: one is the Regulations Review Committee\u2019s inquiry into the oversight of disallowable instruments that are not legislative instruments, and the Productivity Commission\u2019s report on regulatory institutions and practices. Both of those inquiries recommended improving accessibility of New Zealand\u2019s secondary legislation by establishing a single website or register from which it can be accessed. I completely feel in tune with that comment, because every time that I talk to people, especially ethnic communities, who want to learn more about bills and regulations, they don\u2019t actually have one place that they can go to find all that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI think what this bill will achieve is that in time, all of the legislation, secondary legislation, everything related to the changes that we make in Parliament, will be available in that one place, and technology makes it happen. I would like to say, I commend this great bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb43de737e0649ef8fc4dac8d3bc9d36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb43de737e0649ef8fc4dac8d3bc9d36\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s an honour to take a call on\u2014well, I haven\u2019t actually taken a call on a Government bill that we\u2019ve supported in a while, so I\u2019m pleased to be able to do that tonight. I also want to acknowledge the Minister for bringing the bill, and recall our time together on the Regulations Review Committee when she was the chair\u2014so a full-circle moment here, to be in the House when this piece of legislation, the Legislation Amendment Bill, has been brought to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAs my colleagues have eloquently said, Labour will be supporting this bill, because it is a practical bill and it does provide greater access to legislation. I think probably, looking through it, the main big change will be the single point of access that it will allow to secondary legislation. Now, I think that secondary legislation is not something that many New Zealanders probably spend a lot of time thinking about, unless it directly affects their lives. But the point of the work that we do is to try and make sure that when either primary legislation or secondary legislation has an impact on people\u2019s lives, they have access to that. It shouldn\u2019t be something which is hidden away and it shouldn\u2019t be something which is difficult to find, and so I think, in addition to the single point of access, the publication requirements that this bill introduces will also be of great use moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI also wanted to say, at this stage, that this looks very much into the work of the Parliamentary Counsel Office (PCO). We get to work with the Parliamentary Counsel Office every single week in Parliament, and they do an exceptional job. They\u2019re exceptionally talented lawyers, who probably could make a lot more money doing other work but choose to spend their time doing what can sometimes be extremely detailed work\u2014some may consider it tedious, but I\u2019m sure they don\u2019t\u2014making sure that the legislation that we put before this House is of the highest quality. They do an exceptional job of that. They work with parties around the House and select committees, but also, of course, with the Ministers who are in Government, to make sure that the legislation is of very high quality. I want to commend them for the work that they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI do echo the concerns that my colleague Duncan Webb made around repealing Part 4 of the Legislation Act and around the almost preparation that the Government is doing for the Regulatory Standards Bill. That is of course legislation that we don\u2019t support and, in fact, purports to do a somewhat similar job to this bill but, actually, as we\u2019ve seen with a lot of those debates, goes a lot further than that. I think, to also agree with what Dr Duncan Webb has said, this particular bill took a long period of time because sometimes legislation does take a long period of time, and especially legislation which is genuinely bipartisan and genuinely seeks to solve a real problem that members across the House can agree exists and that we know that we can do better around moving forward. So I do echo the concerns that Dr Duncan Webb stated around the Regulatory Standards Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EBut I think, overall, we\u2019re really pleased to see this come to the House. It\u2019s really pleasing to see work that\u2019s gone on, especially with very dedicated committees like the Regulations Review Committee, which probably doesn\u2019t get enough attention in this House. They often meet when the House is sitting, unless those people make complaints, the Regulations Review Committee\u2014who are a small group of people, from my experience. You don\u2019t actually get to see the work that they do, but they do do really important work in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI think that this particular bill will enable the PCO, Regulations Review, and the public to better understand the role of secondary legislation, so it is something that I\u2019m very pleased to support, and, obviously, we\u2019re just keen to see, looking through all of the details of it\u2014and there is a significant amount of information that\u2019s been released today as well, to support that. We will look through this. We will see if there\u2019s any further improvement that can be made, but I want to commend the work that\u2019s been done over successive Governments to get the bill to this particular state. I\u2019m pleased to be able to make a tiny contribution to this and commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9e5600582ec4502a1f4e5a45f24211a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9e5600582ec4502a1f4e5a45f24211a\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E When I have been meeting recently with a number of disability groups in our community, the biggest theme I\u2019ve heard from them isn\u2019t about plain language or comprehension; it\u2019s been about ease of access, and this bill, the Legislation Amendment Bill, bringing primary and secondary legislation to one place, improves accessibility. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b05a76ae349747dfa2190cd1742dc884\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b05a76ae349747dfa2190cd1742dc884\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe20026a213f41d9880065b1f0c10d87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe20026a213f41d9880065b1f0c10d87\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Legislation Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022164c24f20c9f4654b60ba214de3fc682\u0022\u003EInstruction to Justice Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d45f1cead57b417a9da46857f4985484\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d45f1cead57b417a9da46857f4985484\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Legislation Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 18 December 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224823dc182c254d68bc48b9aabecd246b\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002253a75e065e714e9189457e74d781682c\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00220eac7e7ef8754ebc97a47d317721d04f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220eac7e7ef8754ebc97a47d317721d04f\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister for Space): \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Leader of the House: I move, That urgency be accorded for the introduction and passing through all stages of the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill, and the remaining stages of the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe House today is going into urgency for only two bills: the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill is to be passed through all stages to give the Government the ability to manage our national security and other risks to the national interest posed by the misuse of ground-based space infrastructure; and the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill, which has already gone through a thorough select committee process and needs to be passed so it can be ratified. We hope to have near-unanimous approval of both bills in the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223deaaf9d976545f485e190c6dd6df9a3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ef5f3674b1a54b7bb100d4722c01d784\u0022\u003EOuter Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226692aa187bcf4a59927b61244bd89261\u0022\u003EIntroduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e16124ba3ee5487d8c5ad42caba317e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e16124ba3ee5487d8c5ad42caba317e0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand it is the intention of the Government to introduce a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022944a1225f5654be6a152e94d5efb875e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022944a1225f5654be6a152e94d5efb875e\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220aeea7cfa6b04deeaad3c9d9b77e4716\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220aeea7cfa6b04deeaad3c9d9b77e4716\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That bill is set down for first reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002250cc2efce6934673a2953df8ab167cf2\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002222a01db570254ae68ccfcf309ed047f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222a01db570254ae68ccfcf309ed047f9\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister for Space):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is a privilege to introduce this bill to the House. The purpose of the bill is to strengthen New Zealand\u2019s space regulatory framework by establishing a new authorisation regime for ground-based space infrastructure, ensuring that activities involving such infrastructure are subject to appropriate oversight, security, and accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ENew Zealand\u2019s space sector is growing rapidly, and we are home to innovative companies and research institutions that are pushing the boundaries of satellite technology, space communication, and orbital operations. As the sector evolves, so too must our regulatory settings. Growth in our space sector includes ground-based infrastructure. I\u2019m talking about satellite tracking stations, telemetry systems, and surveillance equipment, which plays a critical role in supporting space activities. These systems can interact directly with satellites and other space objects, and unfortunately that means they can pose risks to national security and other national interests if not properly managed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EUntil now, our legislation has focused primarily on space and high-altitude activities in orbit or at high altitude. This bill fills a critical gap by introducing a tailored regime for ground-based space infrastructure, ensuring that operators are authorised, risks are assessed, and enforcement powers are available when needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Act 2017. First, the bill requires anyone operating ground-based space infrastructure for certain activities, such as communicating with satellites or tracking space objects, to hold a ground-based space infrastructure activity authorisation. This ensures we know who is operating the infrastructure and for what purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESecond, it sets out a clear application process. Applicants will need to confirm with the regulator that they have appropriate protective security arrangements in place and systems to assess their customers. This is about operators making sure their ground-based space infrastructure operations are secure and they understand who they are providing services to and for what purpose. The bill gives the responsible Minister, which is the Minister for Space, the ability to decline applications in which they are not satisfied that granting their authorisation is in the national interest, including national security. This places ongoing obligations on authorisation holders. They\u2019ll need to report regularly, notify the Minister of any security breaches, and keep their security and due diligence arrangements up to date. The responsible Minister will have the power to vary, suspend, or revoke authorisations where national security and national interest concerns arise. This gives the flexibility to respond to new information or changing circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill strengthens enforcement. Enforcement officers will be able to inspect facilities, assess security arrangements, and when necessary, in the national interest, the Minister will be able to issue disposal orders requiring a person to divest their interest in ground-based space infrastructure. This could mean they could be ordered to sell the equipment or break a lease with a provider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ETo support the smooth transition, the bill includes transitional provisions. From commencement on 29 July 2025\u2014next Tuesday\u2014until no later than 29 July 2026, existing ground-based space infrastructure operators will be deemed to hold a transitional authorisation. Enforcement powers will apply during this period, and the Minister may revoke transitional authorisations on national security grounds. From when regulations come into force, but no later than 29 July 2026, all operators must hold a formal authorisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis bill supports the Government\u2019s broader commitment to ensuring that New Zealand\u2019s space sector is safe, secure, and internationally credible. Innovation in New Zealand is accelerating, and the space sector is a standout example. In the five years to 2024 it grew by 53 percent, contributing $2.47\u00A0billion to the economy in the last financial year. This underscores the sector\u2019s growing role in our economic strategy and its potential to drive future high-value growth. We\u2019re just scratching the surface as we work to grow our economy by becoming the go-to place for space and advanced aviation activities. By introducing a clear and modern framework for ground-based infrastructure, we are enforcing New Zealand\u2019s reputation as a responsible spacefaring nation. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002284a07640d53d449096062b3f4c28eb24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284a07640d53d449096062b3f4c28eb24\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8cb89d4fd6d4f0a95595be9f54c6b5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8cb89d4fd6d4f0a95595be9f54c6b5c\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise as Labour\u2019s space spokesperson to speak. We are supporting this bill, and why we are supporting this bill is because we do agree that all of New Zealand\u2019s space activity, wherever it is, whether it\u2019s on the ground or in the stratosphere, should be regulated so that it is in the national interest, and that is what this bill appears to be doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOn the not-so-good side is that this bill is going through all-stages urgency, and so that means that the bill has only just now become available for people to look at. I understand there may have been some prior consultation on aspects of it, but in general nobody has been having any public discussion about this bill, and so there may be parts of it that have inadvertent, unintended consequences. We do want to go through, in the committee stage, and take it seriously so that we all understand the bill as best as we can, and I hope the Minister is of that view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBecause it is going through all-stages urgency\u2014and there may be a reason for that that hasn\u2019t been explained, but maybe the Minister will explain that; I know that she has just indicated that she wants it to be in force by next Tuesday\u2014there should be an opportunity for a post-enactment review of this, because, as I say, we in this House are not all space experts. We do not operate space facilities, ground-based or vertical launch or horizontal launch, even, and we do want to make sure that we\u2019re creating the best laws for this industry that we possibly can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe agree with the Minister that it is a very important industry to New Zealand, so the point then of being troubled by it coming to us under all-stages urgency is we want to make sure that it\u2019s as robust as it can be and that there are not unintended consequences, because it is not good law-making to do things under all-stages urgency. However, a remedy for all-stages urgency, when there is a proper need to do something in urgency, is to have a post-enactment review. We\u2019d very much like to hear the Minister\u2019s views on that, and we are going to have ample opportunity to, because we\u2019ve got a number of features to do this evening and probably tomorrow morning on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe bill is talking about ground-based space infrastructure, and, as the Minister said, we already have a lot of regulation that comes from the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Act that governs the launching of various different vessels into space. What that provides is that any payload from those launches has to be signed off by the Minister, and the operation also needs to be signed off\u2014so there is a permit and licensing scheme in the Act that we\u2019re amending today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWhat this Act does, and I would welcome the Minister to describe this in one of your speeches, is that this is an authorisation regime\u2014so it\u2019s authorisation rather than licence and permits\u2014and it\u2019s for these ground-based space infrastructure. Ground-based space infrastructure is defined in parts by exception, and so it would also be very useful to hear from the Minister exactly what she considers, and what the drafters of this bill have considered, to be \u201Cground-based infrastructure\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI am coming here assuming that it is places like SpaceOps down near Bluff and also up in Warkworth, but probably not the horizontal launch that we have in Canterbury, or the vertical launch that Rocket Lab has. But maybe it applies to the Chathams that Rocket Lab has, and maybe it applies to the Wellington Gateway Teleport in Upper Hutt. These are things that I thought would be very useful so we\u2019re all clear on exactly what we\u2019re talking about, what it will apply to, and what it won\u2019t. I look forward to speaking on this further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022a285343ead9b47029881fdbfed667229\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a285343ead9b47029881fdbfed667229\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party to also support this bill, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill. Now, understandably, like the Minister for Space has mentioned in her speech, one of the things that we do have potential safeguards for within that space portfolio is what we\u2019re seeing from outer space, but one of the things that is an existing gap within our current legislative and regulatory framework is around ground-based space infrastructure, or GBSI.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, again, understandably, because this is the first time that we are seeing this bill, and this is a bill that\u2019s going through all stages of the readings under urgency, there will be a lot more to unpack, both in terms of the second reading but also in terms of the committee of the whole House. There are definitely things that we would like to ask the Minister about around the introduction of this bill and some of the circumstances that led to the introduction of this bill and, of course, some of the specificity of the bill. In the second reading, I will speak more in terms of the specific sections of this bill and maybe unpack the bill a bit further and raise some of the questions that we\u2019ll be asking the Minister during the committee of the whole House stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think, even at first glance, looking at the departmental disclosure statement, there are a couple of things that we are curious about. One of the things that this does talk about is the fact that although we are seeing this bill be introduced under urgency, the consultation has taken place since 2024, since last year, and there were two sets of consultation that took place, contacting the current 21 operators of GBSI and industry members looking to establish GBSI in the future, and around some of the requirements that we see in this bill. I\u2019m also interested in the fact that while there has been consultation with the GBSI operators, there hasn\u2019t been any consultation with M\u0101ori stakeholders as a result of the urgency, despite the fact that there has been consultation since last year. So there are a few additional things, I think, that deserve some unpacking in the committee of the whole House stage in terms of the process that led to this particular legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, understandably when we are looking at bills like this one, which is going through all stages under urgency, we won\u2019t have the luxury of going through a select committee stage where we\u2019re able to hear both from the New Zealand public but also, equally importantly, from officials who may have additional insight, and we\u2019re able to ask additional things from officials as part of that process. So we will be very much reliant on the opportunities that we\u2019re given during the committee of the whole House stage for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think one of the other things I want to mention in this first reading, other than the context of this bill\u2014and I\u2019ll mention a little bit more about the context and just highlight one additional thing. As with all bills that we see in Parliament, there will be some form of consistency report with our New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, or potentially a section 7 report if there are any areas that are inconsistent. We still haven\u2019t seen that yet, despite the fact that the departmental disclosure statement states that it will be available once this bill is introduced. So, hopefully, as we progress through this bill, we\u2019ll be able to see something on that and to examine this bill in a more wholesome and full and comprehensive way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOne last thing I wanted to address in terms of this bill\u2014and just, again, raising some of the issues that we\u2019d really like to question the Minister on\u2014is around whether the bill contains any provisions that could result in compulsory acquisition of private property. This is where it says, \u201CThe Bill gives Ministers the power to require an operator to dispose of their interest in or right to \u2026 GBSI where the Minister is satisfied on reasonable grounds that the [person operates] \u2026 or has given \u2026 risk to national security.\u201D So we just, again, want to unpack in terms of some of the legal risk components, but also, considering that the departmental disclosure statement specifies that it is within the Minister\u2019s power, we need to look at it from a perspective of regulatory-making power as well as through either secondary legislation or additional aspects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just say the Green Party is supportive of this bill. It does address a gap. We\u2019ll look forward to further engagement with the Minister on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u002279bc9c405d6147d79a9489830d708b37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279bc9c405d6147d79a9489830d708b37\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. And thank you, Minister Collins, for bringing what appears to be a very good piece of legislation, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill. I just want to note that satellite technology is now ubiquitous in our modern life. The days of Sputnik\u2014I think we all remember the stories of Sputnik when we were kids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ca8e79260b24fd69b93e4776b5e4a70\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Tom Rutherford does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276ee3368a1244cbf891f2aad2be39c18\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there you go. And isn\u2019t science a wonderful subject? This certainly speaks to that. I wrote down a few notes, but apparently I have a limited period of time to talk about the speed of light at 299,000 kilometres a second. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EHasn\u2019t our world changed in the last 50 years? I think also, to add to the obvious, with good actors come bad actors, and that we see our satellite telemetry and ground-based assets potentially being used for nefarious purposes. I think this bill speaks to the importance of protecting that satellite network. Obviously, space vehicles and technology, both hardware and software, are a little bit harder to corrupt, but certainly land-based technology is less so. We see the potentiality for nefarious actors to undo all our good work and our investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003ECertainly, in a world where we\u2019re now immersed in this kind of technology, whether it\u2019s the national grid, whether it\u2019s communication capabilities, and certainly our ability to data share, anyone or any group that might compromise that kind of technology and our sovereignty in New Zealand should be protected against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003ESo this is good bill. I thank again the Minister for introducing it to the House, and I certainly look forward to more dialogue on this very subject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022d730d5548a0f4f74ae086cbc5bb3bc0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d730d5548a0f4f74ae086cbc5bb3bc0b\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The final frontier is exciting. I thought we\u2019d start off with a reference to at least one famous genre. I think we all bask in the reflected pride, if you like, in the innovation and the growth of the space sector in New Zealand, something I think we\u2019re all very proud of. But it also holds perils, and that\u2019s really what this bill, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill, is about. The regulatory impact statement (RIS) talks very eloquently about the potential for malicious interests. We know not everyone is benign in this world. There are people who would misuse that final frontier, and so the RIS talks about that, and this bill is about protecting our national security\u2014our national security. That is a very, very important thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI think it is also something that\u2019s about our reputation with our friends and our neighbours, because it\u2019s also about their national security as well. If we\u2019ve got a lot of payload which is launched from New Zealand, it is not just affecting New Zealand but affecting potentially globally, but certainly around our neighbourhood in the South Pacific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EOften in this Government we don\u2019t like adding regulation, but this is about allowing the regulation of what would otherwise be an unregulated sector\u2014and making sure that what goes into space from New Zealand\u2019s sovereign territory is not carrying malicious payloads for nefarious purposes which would affect our national security and the national security of other nations around us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EAlso, when you think about things that could be launched\u2014the surveillance, for example\u2014we want to make sure, as much as we can, that if there are things which are taking photographs or coverage of New Zealand, it is not going to cause adverse effects to New Zealand. Without this bill, there would be, as I understand it, no powers to regulate the payload which is launched from New Zealand soil, and this is what this bill allows to be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ESomewhat predictably, from the Opposition we\u2019ve heard, \u201CYep, we support it, but we\u2019re concerned about urgency.\u201D I guess I would encourage the Minister in further speeches to actually say, \u201CLook, why is it important to get this thing through now?\u201D I think you can see the way in which it\u2019s been put on the table, why it\u2019s been put on the table, the way it\u2019s been done, and the way it\u2019s been pushed quickly is because it is seen as an imminent concern which we need to deal with straight away, to cut any problems off at the pass. The RIS also, I think, very helpfully sets out that this is also about our reputation and it\u2019s about the reputation of our operators here out of New Zealand. That\u2019s a very, very good thing for them to have that good reputation. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022332817c008f54ef88de5eaeb1e9260bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022332817c008f54ef88de5eaeb1e9260bb\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, happy to take a call on this bill, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill. It\u2019s an important bill, and, I think, reflects the growing technological advances we\u2019re seeing here in New Zealand. There\u2019s a lot of opportunity for us in space and in advanced technologies, but with opportunity comes risk. We can see that when we look around the world. There is growing uncertainty. So it is appropriate that we take precautions and sensible steps to ensure that we are managing these technological advances appropriately and setting the framework. This bill will establish a new authorisation regime for the ground-based space infrastructure, which aims to deter foreign interference and protect our national interests. That\u2019s an important consideration for us to look at as we go forward as a trusted, responsible, space-faring nation. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022797f1bda20704d6bbae319f2f4ddde1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022797f1bda20704d6bbae319f2f4ddde1b\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As other speakers before me have alluded to or mentioned, this is a bill that aims to protect New Zealand\u2019s national interest and New Zealand\u2019s national security. It aims to discourage foreign interference in the country\u2019s infrastructure when it comes to tracking and controlling of spacecraft, space surveillance, and the transfer of data to and from spacecraft. It\u2019s also one that aims to send a clear message that New Zealand considers its national security a very serious matter and will take action if it suspects that it\u2019s under threat. As Labour spokesperson for the national security agencies, that is, of course, an aspiration of the legislation that I support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EJust in terms of the why of this bill, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill, I do want to point to the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service\u2019s (NZSIS) New Zealand\u2019s Security Threat Environment. That was the assessment that the NZSIS did, or published, last year in 2024 where they talk about some of the malicious activity that targets the private sector here in New Zealand, and that\u2019s particularly companies focused on tech and innovation. They do lay out all of this. This is in the public domain, so I don\u2019t think there\u2019s anything particularly to not touch on in terms of what they\u2019ve laid out here, but they do state that big data applications, space-related technologies, and advanced manufacturing processes have all reached a stage where the line sometimes between what is ordinarily commercial and what is military or intelligence use can become blurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThey do also lay out a case study where they outline that in the past few years, in recent times, New Zealand organisations have been approached by specific entities that seek to then develop space infrastructure here in our territory, who then claim that that infrastructure will be used for civilian research purposes, but it was then later found that in each of those cases what was proposed by them could have assisted in foreign military activity that would have then harmed New Zealand\u2019s sovereignty, New Zealand\u2019s national security, and our interests more broadly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe full capabilities and, specifically, some of the affiliations of those entities were deliberately withheld or deliberately hidden, and therein lies an issue. If those projects had gone ahead, we would have inadvertently allowed another country to install equipment here in New Zealand with a plausible military or intelligence function, without even having really known the extent of that. That would have, as I said previously, risked our sovereignty. By deliberately hiding their affiliations, the foreign entities then undermine our ability to be able to make informed decisions about our own national security and our national interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it puts in place a regulatory framework. There is a lot of detail in the regulations, and I will come back to that in a minute, but basically what it does is it requires operators of that specific type of infrastructure to obtain a ground-based space infrastructure activity authorisation from the Minister. It also then empowers the Minister to be able to assess whether proposed activities meet the national interest test, and that includes considerations of economic benefit, national security, and international relations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWe do think that the national interest test is a bit vague, and we would want more transparency around balancing the national security test. I do have a question for the Minister, probably when we come to committee stage. I get that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment will be the regulator of this framework that\u2019s proposed, but I do want to know what the interactions will be with national security agencies and the Minister responsible for national security when it comes to that national interest test. But as my colleagues have laid out, we do support this because of its focus on national security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWe do have some questions. We do have a question around the need for urgency for all stages and what sort of consultation will happen when it comes to the regulations within this bill, and have proposed, as Rachel Brooking mentioned, that a review be built into this, just because it is being passed through all stages under urgency. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2173b042750463c9bdf80a1db6c6c4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2173b042750463c9bdf80a1db6c6c4f\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Sir, this evening I and others\u2014the Hon Chris Penk, Tim van de Molen, and Vanessa Weenink\u2014joined veterans who served in East Timor in 1999 to commemorate and acknowledge their service. The world is a different place. Technology has evolved markedly since that time, and while to some it might feel a bit far-fetched to say that we are facing space wars or something similar in the future, actually, the space domain is already critical to security operations around the world, and indeed in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EIsn\u2019t it good that here we have a Government, and a Minister in the Hon Judith Collins KC, who is doing something about that for our country? I commend the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022e63ae5efae5a4dae83ffe332b89ca3bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e63ae5efae5a4dae83ffe332b89ca3bd\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E As colleagues have said, this bill, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill, puts in place an authorisation framework to regulate ground-based space infrastructure. It\u2019s worth noting for the folks at home that ground-based space infrastructure includes any earth-based facilities that support space operations, including satellite ground stations, tracking and monitoring systems, data reception and processing centres, launch support facilities and mission control centres, and cyber-physical systems used to interfere with orbiting spacecraft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe risk, I think, that this bill is seeking to address is espionage and foreign interference by foreign powers. The sort of ground-based space infrastructure that we\u2019re talking about here can be exploited to intercept satellite communications, monitor payloads and launch schedules, and map New Zealand\u2019s scientific and military capabilities. They\u2019re also vulnerable to cyber-attacks and intrusions. There are a number of examples internationally, global precedents where foreign actors have successfully hacked into satellite ground stations in Norway, in India, and in the US.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EA number of like-minded countries who have space sectors have, in recent times, introduced regulatory safeguards to manage the risks of foreign interference and national interest risks associated with ground-based space infrastructure. In 2020, the Norwegian Government tightened the security rules for foreign access to satellite ground stations in the Arctic. They brought in restrictions on data sharing, requiring greater transparency and compliance with security clearances. Canada in 2019: a Chinese-controlled company was blocked from acquiring Canadian satellite imaging firm Norsat, and Canada mandates that operators of satellite ground stations and space data systems comply with their defence and intelligence vetting. Sweden has done similarly with their Space Activities Act. Australia: the Office of National Intelligence and Defence Space Command now advise on all proposed space activities involving international collaboration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI want to use the remaining time to really ask the question about whether the concern for national sovereignty and the protection of the national interest in relation to ground-based space infrastructure begs the question of whether we\u2019re doing all we can to protect our national sovereignty in relation to the rest of the New Zealand - based space programme, including the launches at M\u0101hia Peninsula. The threat there, of course, is not espionage, foreign actors who might wish to interfere or disrupt; it\u2019s foreign actors who may be the paying customers of the launch programme. Why do I say this? Because what began as a launch industry taking advantage of our uncluttered skies and ocean with exciting economic development potential has grown with a very heavy reliance on launching payloads for US military agencies and private sector firms who supply the US military. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe salient example is BlackSky\u2019s technology. A geospatial intelligence firm have had satellites launched for them by Rocket Lab over a number of years. Now BlackSky supplies the high temporal frequency images and analysis to the Israel Defense Forces. Israel\u2019s artificial intelligence systems use geospatial data to select their strike targets in their military operation in Gaza, where they are routinely bombing civilian targets and breaching international law on a daily basis. The question is: are Rocket Lab payloads supporting a genocidal war on the people of Gaza? Well, we don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Minister is required, when they sign off a payload, to ensure that it meets the national interest test and a set of principles which include the payloads with the intended end use of supporting or enabling specific defence, security, or intelligence operations that are contrary to Government policy must not be allowed. But there\u2019s no transparency. We have to take the Minister\u2019s word for it. That is the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis bill seeks to strengthen the regulatory framework to protect the national interest in relation to ground-based space infrastructure. But are we applying the same level of care to the rest of the space programme, particularly the payload launches at M\u0101hia Peninsula for military clients and the private sector firms that serve them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296153cf7d8c2494bbc9b8404776f886e\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222373244b9bac491b9a2a9e3d3d77a591\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222373244b9bac491b9a2a9e3d3d77a591\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry there\u2019s no more speech\u2014[Interruption] Is there one more? Oh, one more National\u2014sorry. Apologies. I see an arrow that\u2019s been drawn here. I call Grant McCallum. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc5b5fc6d0a847d89602a427aef8041c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc5b5fc6d0a847d89602a427aef8041c\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228314ea27f36348a596d9a97df31e9c2c\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you could have saved us, Madam Speaker!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa1b061d7daf4951b5b055b26c60f8a3\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! The support is overwhelming\u2014it\u2019s overwhelming!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a real pleasure to rise to take the final call on the first reading of this very important bill, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill. The space industry\u2014who would have thought many years ago that once upon a time New Zealand would be one of the key leaders in the space industry in the world. It\u2019s a very proud moment to be able to rise to speak on this. I acknowledge the work of the Hon Judith Collins KC that she\u2019s doing in this \u201Cspace\u201D, you might say\u2014boom, boom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EFor that, I\u2019d just like to say I look forward to moving through the rest of the bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227df2ccfc2b7a49cb8af710054eb2ffb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227df2ccfc2b7a49cb8af710054eb2ffb1\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for second reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b449630d22c14ff38a997bc17900c01d\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00226173a077e51a4216a588517ae89f7921\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226173a077e51a4216a588517ae89f7921\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister for Space):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI want to thank members from across the House for their contributions during the first reading debate. I appreciate the thoughtful engagement with the bill\u2019s intent and provisions. As I outlined in my first reading speech, this bill introduces a new authorisation regime for ground-based space infrastructure. These are facilities and systems located in New Zealand that interact with satellites and other space objects such as tracking stations, telemetry systems, and surveillance equipment. Until now, these activities have not been subject to a dedicated regulatory framework. This bill addresses this gap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe bill requires operators of infrastructure to have a ground-based space infrastructure activity authorisation before conducting regulated activities. Operators of this infrastructure must notify the regulator that they have protective security and partner due-diligence arrangements to obtain an authorisation. The responsible Minister, the Minister for Space, may decline an authorisation if they are not satisfied that the application is in the national interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EImportantly, it also provides enforcement powers, including the ability to issue disposal orders, where risks cannot be adequately managed. I want to be clear that the bill excludes activities such as astronomy, emergency services operations, and personal or household use. The regime is targeted at ground-based space infrastructure that poses a risk, or a potential risk, to national interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EFrom 29 July 2025\u2014next week\u2014all in-scope operators will be treated as having a transitional authorisation. Enforcement powers will apply from that date, and the Minister will have the ability to revoke authorisations on national security grounds, a subcomponent of the broader national interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EA formal transition period will run until the commencement of regulations, with a backstop date of 29 July 2026, giving operators time to meet the new requirements. The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment will provide guidance and support throughout this period. From the commencement of regulations, the Minister will have the ability to revoke authorisations on broader national interest grounds. This bill responds, by the way, to an immediate need to safeguard New Zealand\u2019s national security. Ground-based space infrastructure is increasingly being used to support satellite operations, and without a regulatory framework in place, we are exposed to risk, including foreign interference, that cannot be adequately managed under current legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EDuring the past five years, there have been several deceptive efforts by foreign actors to establish and/or use ground-based space infrastructure in New Zealand to harm our national security. They have deliberately disguised their affiliations to foreign militaries and misrepresented their intentions. To date, these risks have been managed through non-regulatory measures, including relying on the goodwill of ground-based space infrastructure operators. These measures are no longer enough. By progressing this bill under urgency, we are ensuring that enforcement powers are available from the moment the legislation comes into force on 29 July, which is next Tuesday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis is critical to maintain oversight of in-scope infrastructure and to enable swift actions if national security concerns arise. This bill is not about restricting innovation; it\u2019s about ensuring that New Zealand\u2019s space sector continues to grow in a way that is secure, responsible, and aligned to our national interests. It complements our broader work on space activities, regulation, international partnerships, and space security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI thank members again for their contributions and look forward to detailed consideration of the bill\u2019s provisions during the committee of the whole House. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226d40a21320684be29a220a2febcef7de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d40a21320684be29a220a2febcef7de\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002286ee2cad2cfa47188851dbcbe5f8866e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286ee2cad2cfa47188851dbcbe5f8866e\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank the Minister for Space for two comments that she made just then. One was that we\u2019ll have some detailed consideration in the committee stage, and that is very important. The other one was that the Minister has said there is an immediate need, for national security reasons, regarding potential foreign interference that can\u2019t be managed by the current regulatory framework. That is her case for it coming to us under urgency, and I will accept the need for it to be under urgency at the Minister\u2019s word. She knows much more about these things, given the many different hats that she wears in this field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut I do still say, and I will continue to say\u2014and I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s answer\u2014why can\u2019t there be some sort of post-enactment review of this legislation that we will pass either tonight or tomorrow morning? That point remains, but I thank the Minister for confirming that there is a reason for the urgency and that we will have a detailed discussion in the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, I just want to touch on a couple of things, because in between doing my first reading and my second reading speeches, I have been down to the Table and have found there now, just as the urgency motion was moved, the departmental disclosure statement and the regulatory impact statement (RIS). A couple of the matters that I referred to in my first reading speech not that long ago are relevant here as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI mentioned in the first reading speech that it would be good to know exactly what the operations are that we\u2019re considering. Is it what we have down in Awarua and up in Warkworth? How many more of these ground-based space infrastructures (GBSI) are there around the country? I note then in the departmental disclosure statement, on page 9, it talks about the external consultation that happened with this bill and notes that 21 operators of GBSI and industry members looking to establish GBSI in the future were contacted for some sort of consultation. Then it says, \u201CWe met with 10 operators during the initial consultation and three operators responded in writing in the second round of consultation.\u201D It says that the consultation was positive. Then it goes on to say that \u201CWe conducted consultation with two GBSI experts on the bill.\u201D It looks to be that there could be 21 operators of this infrastructure around the country, given the comment in here. It would be very useful to hear from the Minister at some point during the committee stage about what those operators are and what is in and out of ground-based space infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen I also note that the Minister made some comment there in her second reading speech that the current regulatory framework is not good enough to safeguard us from this national security risk, and she mentioned that in the past there have been some regulations and some goodwill\u2014the goodwill of the current operators has meant that the system has been, hopefully, working OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, on page 8 of the RIS, there is some discussion about some of the different regulatory frameworks that are already in place. I think this is important, because it talks about the Radiocommunications Act, and that does provide some regulation at the moment for telemetry tracking and control that\u2019s radio frequency - based, hence it is the Radiocommunications Act, but that there is no coverage for the optical. So that is a useful table that shows the gaps in the regulation that I presume this bill, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill, is trying to fill. That is why we are speaking in support of it but want some more discussion on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI also note from the RIS that it will take two additional fulltime-equivalent people\u2014that\u2019s an estimation\u2014at the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, the ministry in charge of the bill. Those are important items to understand as we progress through the second reading and go into the committee stage soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOf course, normally, in a second reading we are talking about what we have heard from the select committee and what those that were consulted have said. That hasn\u2019t happened in this case. I take the Minister at her word that the urgency is required, but it does mean that we do need to spend some time on the bill in the committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from my colleagues who were talking about the national interest test. In this test, from my look at the bill and also the primary legislation that\u2019s being amended by the bill, the national interest test is the same. It\u2019s the same for consideration by the Minister when considering the existing launch approvals\u2014which have different names from approvals: licences and permits\u2014and then for these authorisations for the space infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe see it in new section 49C, inserted by clause 7, that the Minister may have regard to economic or other benefits to New Zealand of the proposed activity\u2014so financial focus; any risks to national security, public safety, international relations or other national interests; the extent to which the risk can be mitigated by authorisation conditions; and any other matters that the Minister considers relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo, obviously, new section 49D, inserted by clause 7, is quite wide, and I do acknowledge that this is the same test that is in the legislation already, but we\u2019ve heard from some of the speakers, and we heard from the Greens before about, well, where do mana whenua fit in with this? Is there any consideration for any particular concerns that they might have either in the national interest test or somewhere else? Through my quick look through the RIS\u2014I couldn\u2019t see anything in there, but that may be because I skipped the page. We would like to know more about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen we will also be asking questions about requirements to consult the security Ministers. I acknowledge, at the current point in time, that that is all one person, which is interesting, but we will have some questions about that, and also how these apply to people who might be scientists or universities that aren\u2019t the private person that the Minister talked about and who are clearly exempt. What about those other agencies that might not actually have a big bunch of kit like you do in Awarua but might have a small amount of\u2014some of the items that are listed, when they\u2019re operated by certain people, they become infrastructure, but when they\u2019re operated by a private person, they\u2019re not covered; they are exempt. So there\u2019s an interesting balance there of how that decision will be made of where the line goes. That, again, is something that we will be wanting to address in the committee stage. I\u2019ll leave it there for now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220dcbd4afe7af4f0ebe59849dcf8151e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220dcbd4afe7af4f0ebe59849dcf8151e4\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Greens in this second reading speech to talk about the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill. For those that are just tuning in right now, what this bill proposes to do is establish a regulatory regime for ground-based space infrastructure (GBSI) activities, and it imposes an authorisation regime on people who operate what we call GBSI to carry out those activities. The activities include telemetry, tracking, and control, including of activities that could disrupt satellite operations of space objects, space surveillance and identification of space objects, satellite data reception, and other activities of concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EWhat we have heard so far in this debate is that this bill is coming to the House because there\u2019s a gap. There\u2019s a gap in the regulatory regime, and it is a gap that needs to be filled. As the Minister was saying earlier, there have been incidents of concern where people have disguised their actual intent in terms of their set-up, and so making sure that you have eyes over things, I think, is really important, right? If you\u2019ve got something being built in your backyard, it makes sense that you know what is being built in that backyard, and it makes sense that there is some sort of regulatory regime that is in place to make sure that it does what we think it does. That\u2019s important. That\u2019s the reason\u2014with that particular aspect\u2014that the Greens are supporting this bill, because we recognise that there needs to be something which deals with ground-based space infrastructure activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI do agree with the point, though, that this is coming through the House under urgency, and we have heard concerns that it needs to be done quickly because there are possibly incidents afloat. But the suggestion that we could actually take a look at it a bit afterwards\u2014having a post-legislation review on it\u2014I think, is a good idea, because this is an incredibly important space but also a way for us to make sure that we\u2019ve done the job properly. The issue is that if you take things for urgency too quickly\u2014you know, you\u2019ve got to be able to road-test the tyres, and so on and so forth. We don\u2019t want any of the wheels falling off. So I do support that suggestion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI think it was the Hon Phil Twyford who talked about his concerns around the national interest. Yes, it\u2019s important for there to be eyes over it and to have a regulatory regime so there is some sort of form of law to be able to make sure that everything is happening in a way that makes sense, and that\u2019s important. But we also need to understand that all of this stuff hooks on to what we call the \u201Cnational interest\u201D. I guess, for me, the national interest can always change. I note, within the regulatory impact statement here, that ground-based infrastructure refers to GBSI but also that this legislation is focused on foreign actors that do not share New Zealand\u2019s values. I think that\u2019s an important point, because values change over time, right? What are New Zealand\u2019s values? As we become, hopefully, more enlightened as a society, our values change; they evolve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI think the question that I have\u2014which is linked to this bill but is perhaps a wider discussion, I think, that needs to happen in the context of the Act itself\u2014is actually: have we got it right in terms of how we determine what the national interest is? There are a couple of examples of things, that I\u2019m aware of, that are against the national interest. For example, if you launch something into outer space and you hit someone else\u2019s satellite, well, you\u2019re creating damage to someone else\u2019s property, so that\u2019s against the national interest. We\u2019ve got, proudly, a nuclear-free status, so we can\u2019t\u2014shouldn\u2019t\u2014be launching things into outer space which contravene our nuclear-free legislation, and so that would be seen to be against the national interest. There is another debate there around dual use: if you fire something up which could be agnostic in terms of its usage, what says that afterwards someone might actually use it for nuclear purposes? How do you actually monitor that? Those two things would be considered to be against the national interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI think the legislation needs to be a lot more nimble to be able to accommodate the changing world that we live in. We are living in a world that is incredibly fractious. Things change very, very rapidly. Is that particular part fit for purpose? I don\u2019t think it is. The need to actually have the regulatory regime to make sure that we know what we\u2019re doing and that there\u2019s eyes on the ground-based space infrastructure stuff\u2014point made: that\u2019s really important. But it actually hinges on what the national interest is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EWe did hear concerns\u2014that I have\u2014around what\u2019s being launched over in M\u0101hia, as well. I note that BlackSky itself, which is a third-party provider who is providing geospatial data to countries like Israel\u2014literally, with Israel. They\u2019ve got a $150 million contract with Israel, and that\u2019s incredibly problematic, because we had a debate today and this whole House is concerned about what\u2019s happening there, as well. The question that I have is: is this now in line with our national interest? Well, I would argue that it isn\u2019t. I would argue that what is happening over there is incredibly problematic and that we must do everything that we can to actually stop what is happening there, or to at least not be part of that. That hinges around that question of national interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EJust coming back to the bill, I do acknowledge that there have been assessments made by the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service, and I\u2019ve got a quote here from their assessment, which says, \u201CThe full capabilities, and some of the affiliations of these entities, were deliberately hidden\u201D. That\u2019s not good. \u201CIf these projects had gone ahead, we would have inadvertently allowed another country to install equipment in New Zealand with a plausible military or intelligence function. To have done so would have risked New Zealand\u2019s sovereignty. By hiding their affiliations, the foreign entities undermined New Zealand\u2019s ability to make informed decisions based on our national security and national interest.\u201D For me, that\u2019s at the heart of why you do need to have a regulatory regime and, in this case, to make sure that GBSI\u2014ground-based space infrastructure activities\u2014do have eyes over them and are regulated. That\u2019s incredibly important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe other part that I have heard made by some other commentators\u2014which I do support, as well\u2014is concerns from mana whenua. The time that I did go out to M\u0101hia to meet with M\u0101ori communities, they were really concerned about what activities were happening there, and what they told me was they were told one thing\u2014these launches weren\u2019t going to be military payloads or surveillance payloads\u2014and then something else happened completely. I think there is another part there. Yes, it\u2019s incredibly important and urgent to deal with issues that are right in front of us, and if there are companies either knowingly or unknowingly being used by nefarious actors, well, then of course we need some legislation to actually be able to deal with that. But we also need to be able to deal with local communities, right? Some of these ground-based institutions\u2014for example, in the case of M\u0101hia\u2014have connections. You have mana whenua who have really legitimate concerns about environmental impacts, for example. Having that weaved through, I think, would be important. I see that as a missing part and component which would actually strengthen, I think, this bill that\u2019s going through, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EWe do support this. We do need to have eyes on ground-based space infrastructure. Everybody needs to know what\u2019s happening in their own backyard. But I would ask the House to really think about what New Zealand values mean. For me, it means we\u2019re, of course, looking after ourselves but we\u2019re also thinking about our neighbours as well. We live in the Pacific, and we\u2019re a family of Pacific nations, so doing what is the best not just for us but also for the Pacific\u2014in everything that we do\u2014I think, is incredibly important, while also noting that in the fast-changing world that we\u2019re living in, we do need to have legislation that is accommodating, legislation that can actually deal with the fluctuations with what\u2019s happening, not just in the Middle East but also all around the world as well so that if our values change or differ, the legislation matches the evolution of those values\u2014the evolution of those values, I think, that will, hopefully, be a step in the right direction. On that, Madam Speaker, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u0022e80d0f8b49504097a7a3519bc405dab4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e80d0f8b49504097a7a3519bc405dab4\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of ACT to support this bill. I want to thank the Minister for bringing this bill, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill, before the House, and it\u2019s justified, in our view, that it goes through under urgency, because the risk has been already identified. Despite identifying the risk, if nothing is done, then it would be really irresponsible, and that is not what we do in Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why it\u2019s good to see that this bill is going through under urgency, because at the moment, the non-regulatory approaches that are available for any actors, those who come here into New Zealand and set up any ground-based space infrastructure, basically, don\u2019t have any teeth. It\u2019s about education. It\u2019s about outreach. We are relying on their goodwill, and, at this stage, even if we find something that is malicious, we cannot go and stop them, so having this regulatory regime will actually send a really good message\u2014a strong message\u2014to anybody who is wanting to come here. At the moment, if somebody will see how relaxed our approach is, they will see New Zealand as a very easy place to go and set up these kinds of infrastructures and do, kind of, malicious activities that we don\u2019t want happening here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s good that, from next week, all authorisations will become transitional authorisations, and then, on a case-by-case basis, they will be changed to fully authorised activities, based on what their activity is, and also giving the opportunity for us to be sure that none of those activities are compromising our national security. It\u2019s a great bill, and I support this bill, and commend this bill to the House. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u00221dd3b4eaba5e4e2dbd01eb0e64d30c05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dd3b4eaba5e4e2dbd01eb0e64d30c05\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This bill, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill, is going through a very rapid passage and, for most of us, the first time we saw anything of it was when the Minister introduced it and we saw the papers put down on the Table in front of us. So I think we\u2019re all getting to have a greater understanding of what the bill is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI just wanted to pick up on one thing, because my understanding is that the Hon Phil Twyford talked about a lot of things related to payload\u2014things which are actually being launched into space\u2014which I understand has actually been covered by other legislation for some period of time, I think since 2017. So what it\u2019s more about is the things which are on the ground, surveilling space. If you look at the list\u2014and it was Teanau Tuiono who very helpfully read those out\u2014it\u2019s telemetry, tracking, and control of space objects; space surveillance and identification of space objects; and satellite data reception.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI really want you to think about the place of New Zealand in the world, because we are an island nation. We\u2019re quite a long way away from anywhere else that anybody can do that kind of tracking, in a location which, as I understand it, a lot of satellites will be going over\u2014the South Pole area\u2014so we are going to be strategically important. If somebody wants to surveil those\u2014to interfere with them, potentially, if they\u2019re a malicious operator\u2014we are quite a handy location to do that from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s quite important that we do that, not just for us but also for our friends and our neighbours. If I might say to the Green Party there\u2014you talked about our values. Looking after our friends and neighbours is a really good part of our value system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just finish off with saying that we\u2019ve had two separate comments from the Opposition. One is to say that this idea of national interest is vague, and then the other is to say that we want the idea of the national interest to be flexible, to be able to respond to different situations. Can\u2019t really have it both ways. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b53020b47a3d4a56a5513aa7df652196\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aafeb13e9c0b4bd08872118d17cde4f7\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is really about allowing for a judgment call to be made for the Government of the day as to what is in the national interest. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d89c451132c74016a6386591595c8d39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d89c451132c74016a6386591595c8d39\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022de475e9f68fc42ee99ad4c5c175da2ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de475e9f68fc42ee99ad4c5c175da2ee\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m here to speak on the second reading of this particular bill, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill. I mentioned in the first reading speech that in the second reading I\u2019d be diving a little bit deeper into the bill itself and some of the questions we have for the Minister for Space in the upcoming committee stage, and, also, this gives me a chance to go into some of the specificities around the regulatory impact statement as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think, to start with, in terms of the different clauses of this bill, one of the things we heard from the Minister was in terms of the reason for urgency. But one of the things we do see in this particular bill is around the transitional arrangement, whereby there\u2019s a transitional authorisation for all persons operating ground-based space infrastructure (GBSI) from the date of commencement until one year\u2014so 29 July 2026. Again, if there is already a transitional arrangement in place which opens the opportunities for the Minister to be able to review the authorisation, it raises the question of why we are then needing to introduce this urgency where, currently, no operators\u2019 authorisation is secure. That\u2019s one of the questions that we\u2019ll be hoping to tease out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe other one that is really important, and, I think, quite a few people have mentioned this\u2014and, again, this is something for us to highlight during the committee stage\u2014is the fact that there is immense power embedded in the Minister. The Minister, in this case, has a lot of discretion and regulatory-making power in terms of the ability to authorise such GBSI operators, with\u2014from what I can see within legislation\u2014not a lot of checks and balances. This is, again, something that we would like to tease out. One of the things I have learnt on the Regulations Review Committee is this immediate nervousness around when there are unchecked regulatory-making powers by the executive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAlso, I mentioned this in the first reading and I would just like to reiterate that we are now at the second reading, and the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act report is still not available on the Ministry of Justice\u2019s website, which makes our job incredibly difficult in terms of analysing and scrutinising any legislation in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOn to the regulatory impact statement: one of the things that we have seen is the fact that this particular bill had a number of options. We can talk more about what is considered to be the national interest and what are considered to be New Zealand values, and we\u2019re going to tease some of that out as part of the committee stage. In accordance with the regulatory impact statement, one of the things that we have seen is that this particular concern\u2014and we have addressed that there is a gap in this particular area and the coverage between what is currently the regulatory environment and the non-regulatory environment that has been used to sort of jigsaw together the current status quo doesn\u2019t cover certain areas. Particularly, if we\u2019re looking at the regulatory impact statement, the current environment doesn\u2019t cover telemetry, it doesn\u2019t even cover space objects surveillance identification, or SOSI, and it doesn\u2019t cover data reception, and also particularly around passive radiofrequency or optical\u2014those two are the most frequent ways for us to be able to track some of these space objects, so to speak. There are certain areas where the current regulatory and non-regulatory environment doesn\u2019t cover, so it is important for there to be an altered measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, four options have been given. One of the things I\u2019m more interested in is that there is a third option, which is offering authorisation for this particular regime, and the next option is actually offering a licence. Based on the regulatory impact statement, there is a difference, but there isn\u2019t a lot of information within that that suggests one is better than the other. So, again, the idea of authorisation versus licence is something that we would like to have a conversation with the Minister around during the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think, finally, when we are looking at this\u2014and this is also important to tease out and this is something that is currently covered under the regulatory impact statement\u2014a large amount of that current guidance is largely based on the Government\u2019s existing published guidance in these areas, through areas such as the Government Communications Security Bureau, but also in terms of New Zealand Security Intelligence Service. So there will be more conversations around those, because, as we\u2019re seeing with some of the other legislation, that has been a sticking point. We look forward to the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d23fa7c9cbfc46018e0c3dad6c47d2c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d23fa7c9cbfc46018e0c3dad6c47d2c2\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, we\u2019ve heard already that ground-based space infrastructure plays a vital role in supporting global satellite operations and space activities. That\u2019s why we\u2019re bringing this regulatory regime in, because, of course, there is a risk that there may be foreign entities that don\u2019t share our values or interests looking to engage with this ground-based space infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EI do just want to give some confidence to those hobbyists that they will not be captured by this law. The intent is that for members of the public looking at satellites as a hobby, for example, they are excluded. So I just wanted to note that piece\u2014because it hasn\u2019t come up so far in debate\u2014before we get into the committee stage. But I do commend the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd6c318566e94aaf889c41b298165697\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd6c318566e94aaf889c41b298165697\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. We know that space is increasingly contested and competitive. That leads to, often, an increasing view of space as a geopolitical domain. We know that countries seek to use space technology to further their own military and security ambitions. We have seen, as I previously mentioned or laid out in my contribution to the first reading of this bill, that the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service (NZSIS) themselves have laid out in their threat assessment for 2024 how this has happened in recent years, the fact that there are malicious actors, and the lack of a stringent regulatory framework\u2014because there is some regulation\u2014and that the gaps in that mean that we could have opened ourselves inadvertently to be used in a way that goes against our own national security. So here we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWe also know from the work that has been done to date on this bill, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill, that New Zealand is increasingly an attractive location to host ground-based space infrastructure (GBSI), and so the two together mean that we need to take some action, and that\u2019s what this bill is about. That\u2019s why we are supporting it: because we do recognise that there\u2019s the potential for increased activity in this space\u2014excuse the pun.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWe also know that GBSI is dual use: it could be used for military purposes; it could be used for civilian research purposes, for example. I acknowledge that this bill aims to narrow the scope so that it captures, within the scope, some of those more problematic aspects of GBSI use but doesn\u2019t capture, as the previous speaker said, some other things around hobby and astronomy and so on and so forth. We would like to tease that out a little bit at the committee stage to make sure that that is indeed what the outcome will be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIn terms of the regulatory gap that this piece of legislation aims to fill, to date a lot of it has been around non-regulatory measures\u2014so engagement between officials and known GBSI activities, I suppose, or providers, and education there. It\u2019s been recognised that that\u2019s not enough. There needs to be better tools or better levers to be able to manage the risk herein.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI do want to raise, within the regulatory impact statement (RIS)\u2014and I accept the Minister for Space has said that there is a security risk, and that\u2019s why all stages of this bill are being considered under urgency. However, I will still say that we do still feel that a post-enactment review clause should be included in this bill, because it is potentially a significant bill, and there has been limited consultation. It\u2019s that point that I want to make. I\u2019ll just find the particular section of the RIS that talks about some of the consultation that\u2019s happened to date. I understand it\u2019s on the policy intent of the bill, not the bill itself\u2014that it was the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment approaching 21 known GBSI operators to provide them with the opportunity to give some feedback on what the scope of the policy intent of this bill, and the design of the regulatory regime itself, would look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI see from the RIS that only three of those operators actually responded to the call\u2014the consultation document\u2014and that made it quite difficult to then get a consensus around, I guess, the scope of this regime, what it should capture, and what it should exclude intentionally. In fact, of the three, only two of them responded supporting an authorisation regime, while, apparently, one operator felt that choice was not consequential because they offer GBSI services to foreign third parties and would expect a high level of scrutiny, so I\u2019m not too sure what to make of that feedback. It does also say earlier on in the RIS that there was broad support for this regime. We, of course, haven\u2019t seen the consultation document, it being a targeted form of consultation, but it would be useful to know what some of that feedback was in a little bit more detail, I guess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe other part of the RIS that had me a little bit nervous was the part that says that there\u2019s currently no funding identified to support the implementation of the regime. From reading the bill, there are a number of parts to it, but a large component of it would be the compliance and the penalty regime, I would have thought, because that is the lever that is being sought to address the national security, national interest side of the risk of this whole activity. Not having any funding to implement the regime and no information around where that would sit or how that would happen is, for me, problematic. Perhaps that\u2019s also in the regulations, but there is a lot of detail in the regulations of this bill, and so I do think some questions around that, to the Minister, would be prudent at the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe final point that I wanted to make\u2014given that, as I mentioned previously, there is a section of the NZSIS threat assessment from last year that lays out a case study around the risk involved here. There is also a section of the RIS that talks about how managing GBSI risks aligns with New Zealand\u2019s National Security Strategy. I know when we were in Government there was a comprehensive piece of work around countering foreign interference. That has continued as well. Foreign interference and espionage, alongside space security, are included as core issues for this Government to focus on through the security agencies, and I will once again raise the point that I see no interaction or requirement, through this legislation, for the national security agencies to be consulted when it comes to the national interest test. I will put to the Minister that I will be asking a few more questions at the committee stage around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EGiven that the whole point of this legislative fix is to improve national security, I find it slightly bizarre that there\u2019s no requirement around that consultation either of the Minister. In this case, it\u2019s not too much of an issue, but in future cases, if it\u2019s not the same Minister for Space and security agencies but also overarching intelligence and security, I feel there probably should be a requirement to consult in that space. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u00220afa4dae20ee4a10b6b9a519bed52cce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220afa4dae20ee4a10b6b9a519bed52cce\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, I\u2019d just like to rise and take this call on the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill. Please could I just take one minute to acknowledge the Star Trekkers from Gisborne in the gallery tonight, here for a night of fun in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003EI think the purpose of the bill, being to strengthen New Zealand\u2019s space regulatory framework, is one that is well needed and it\u2019s a good piece of work. I commend the Minister for her hard work and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002269a56d0085fa403f8a09302e2b31cc51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269a56d0085fa403f8a09302e2b31cc51\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002215658e6da4c448b8a9c21eac999b2e47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215658e6da4c448b8a9c21eac999b2e47\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to use the time that I have to really encourage and urge the Government members and the Minister for Space in particular to look at the post-enactment review that has been called for by my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking. I accept, as my colleagues do, that there is an important reason why we\u2019re going through urgency and why everything needs to be done in a hurry, but I am really concerned about a number of issues and the context in which this has been created\u2014that the national interest that we are serving is New Zealand\u2019s national interest and that it cannot be hijacked by any of our friends in the global terrain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI say that as the MP who has the privilege of having Awarua, which has been mentioned a few times in the House, in the electorate that I look after as what we call a buddy MP in Invercargill. The reason Awarua is such a great site is that we have clear skies down there near Invercargill but also really fantastic launch angles. The Hon Rachel Brooking and myself were lucky enough to go down and see what almost felt like something out of a Dr. Seuss book, with these strange contraptions that would lie dormant and then very occasionally suddenly wake up, turn, and provide vital information. I do want to acknowledge Robin McNeill and his team for the incredible innovation and what they have created for the sector with what has become SpaceOps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy concern, really, is that there have been issues raised in terms of the use of urgency, in terms of the caveated and the very high levels of trust element that we have regarding the imminent threat to Aotearoa New Zealand\u2014the fact that the Government Communications Security Bureau, as the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan has said, is not required to be consulted. I think about the context of Rocket Lab and also about the dual use of these facilities, and I think it\u2019s really important that we accept and trust there are good reasons to do this but that we understand what agendas are at play here. The post-enactment review will provide full transparency and full scrutiny so that we can be clear this is really about New Zealand\u2019s national interest and nobody else\u2019s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI also look at the powers of the Minister, which are undefined considerations of economic benefit, national security, and international relations. They are not prescriptive, and that means they are potentially subject to the political whims of the day, regardless of who is in power. I also note that there are some who fear that New Zealand\u2019s space sector would become a proxy for foreign defence interests. It\u2019s really important that, for those sceptics out there, we can provide a comprehensive and full disclosure, full transparency, and rationale for enacting this bill, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill, and for doing it with so much urgency. When I look at the national interest, it has a heavy tilt towards economic benefit, and economic benefit and national security can be mutually exclusive. It\u2019s really important that we distinguish, again, the agendas that are at play here and that we appease people who think this is maybe not about New Zealand\u2019s national interests but about others\u2019 in the geopolitics that we are seeing play out in our region. I\u2019m thinking here about the Pacific region but also Antarctica and that triangle of geography that is so important to our national security and also to global peace and security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EFinally, I am concerned that the operational detail of the regime will be only introduced in maybe 2025 or 2026. There is a transitional period where actors are deemed to be compliant. Again, they may well be fine, but in the interests of transparency, which is the best way of garnering public support and confidence in this, I think it\u2019s really important that we have a post-enactment review that can ventilate and shine a light on all of these concerns so that people in New Zealand really know that the excellent work done by Robin McNeill\u2019s team in Awarua and also up in the Far North is in New Zealand\u2019s national interests, without agendas from partners, without pressure from any foreign partners, and that we are really doing the right thing by our country. Let\u2019s get that post-enactment review in place, and then everybody can sleep well. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022131553791b734f5789a606fdf9363ad9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022131553791b734f5789a606fdf9363ad9\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise in support of the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill. This bill brings into place a regulatory framework to help with the ground-based space infrastructure that we know is in place, and it enables us to protect our national interests. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f021f127266a423bbb735432e916fc8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f021f127266a423bbb735432e916fc8a\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Like my colleagues, I rise in support of the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill, which, in my view, does send a clear message that the country considers its national security a serious matter and that we can take action and have an appropriate regulatory framework in place to address threats. I do support the bill and, of course, have trust in the Minister, the Hon Judith Collins, given her knowledge in the sector, in terms of the need for urgency. However, like my colleagues, I would support a post-urgency scrutiny process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EJust as a bit of a sidestep on the urgency, I note going into the Standing Orders review that this is an issue that comes up fairly frequently and that the Clerk has proposed changes in this respect as well. Post-legislative scrutiny is a good way of ensuring that where legislation does need to proceed through the House urgently, we can still examine it after the fact. However, unfortunately, the Standing Orders Committee has yet to act on those recommendations. It\u2019s not an unusual procedure to have in a House and, just having done some looking into this, I understand that in the United Kingdom they have had a post-legislative review process in place for all legislation, including fast-track legislation, since 2008. With their process, it actually allows a departmental review\u2014it\u2019s a different process\u2014within three to five years of the Act entering the statute book. However, the UK House of Commons also engages in a post-legislative scrutiny process as well, where there are select committees that examine legislation, and sessional committees specifically put together to go through whether there have been legislative flaws, which often happens as well, or whether there are policy issues that ought to be examined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThere are other countries still, like Denmark, who adopt other ways of regulating or managing legislation that needs to go through the House under urgency. Again, I\u2019m completely accepting that there will be times when this does need to happen. For example, Denmark in 2022 announced that they would provide for fast-track legislative proposals to come with a sunset clause of six months. The aim there was that they would then go into a period of immediately reviewing the legislation and allowing for public submissions. That\u2019s, of course, not what we\u2019re asking in this case. I think we\u2019re asking for something that\u2019s extremely reasonable in terms of a post-legislative framework to examine the rationale behind the bill. I\u2019m just wanting to emphasise that I do think it\u2019s extremely important, not only because we\u2019re going through an urgency process but because of the nature of the legislation as well, which I\u2019ll speak to part of in a moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI did want to just refer back to comments made in the House earlier this evening by the Hon Phil Twyford and Lawrence Xu-Nan. They referenced the national interest test and the fact that while this regulates a particular a gap in our regulatory system in terms of infrastructure on the ground, we do always also need to consider how the launching of payloads affects our national security as well. I think it\u2019s part and parcel of the same considerations in terms of national security. I would just note that there was a call earlier this year from a group of eminent lawyers asking for an Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security review of our intelligence sharing and whether that posed a risk in terms of our obligations under the Genocide Convention. This is an important area of the law, and I do think that we need to be actively considering what we believe to be national interest. For me, it includes our commitment to international law and the rule of law and making sure that we comply with that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI did now want to go to a few issues that, had this gone to select committee, I would have raised, and perhaps there will be time to discuss during the committee stage. The first is whether certain provisions are most appropriately placed within primary or secondary legislation. This is actually an issue I raised in regards to the Legislation Amendment Bill earlier today. In terms of this bill, clause\u00A024 amends section 88, which concerns the power to make regulations for various purposes related to the principal Act. I just wanted to point out the difference in some of those powers. There are some powers that prescribe the requirements for protective security arrangements and partner due diligence, some that prescribe conditions for authorisation\u2014in my view, that\u2019s very appropriate to be done in secondary legislation\u2014some that prescribe the form of authorisations and the information that they must contain, and some that prescribe requirements for authorisation holders to provide information to the Minister. In my view, this very appropriately sits within secondary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThen there are some other provisions that create powers to amend the definition of \u201Cground-based space infrastructure\u201D by prescribing things that are or that are not within the meaning of that term. There\u2019s another one that allows amending the definition of \u201Coperate\u201D by prescribing acts that are or that are not within the meaning of that term, and another one that allows a power to amend the definition of a regulated activity by prescribing activities that are or aren\u2019t within the meaning of that term. There\u2019s difference in terms of the powers created here\u2014some of them are very technical, while others appear to touch on very substantive policy decisions. The question I would have asked is whether it would be more appropriate for those terms\u2014those substantive terms\u2014to be outlined within primary legislation. This is a point that has been made before by the Regulations Reviews Committee, and certainly many academics as well, who have critiqued the making of very broad legislative powers and the fact that it then becomes very difficult to monitor how those powers are used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ENow, some might suggest that we don\u2019t need to be overly concerned about this because there are executive checks on the system in terms of creating those secondary powers. Certainly, as regulations are created, there is an obligation on the Parliamentary Counsel Office to notify the Attorney-General if there is a sense that the regulations are being drafted outside the scope of primary legislation. The issue here is that when you draft primary legislation so broadly, it is very difficult to hold back those regulation-making powers. Likewise, if you wanted to challenge the regulation in the courts, it probably wouldn\u2019t be deemed ultra vires\u2014outside of the power or scope of the primary legislation\u2014however, it might be deemed unusual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI do think, as I mentioned earlier this evening, we have to be cautious of legislative decision-making that takes us on a slide towards framework legislation as the acceptable model all the time. I think we need to be especially cautious of a model where we\u2019re dealing with security and intelligence - related substantive policy. The reason for that is that that\u2019s the very type of secondary legislation that I could see as being the type that might be exempt from publication, that might be less subject to review, and so we must really be very, very careful of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s another point on, I think, new section 49B, which speaks to the application, in terms of being authorised. There\u2019s an obligation on the applicant to establish reasonable measures to manage the risks that are present in terms of producing their application. It\u2019s another example of a place within the legislation where I would ask: should we specify what those risks are rather than leaving them fairly broad? Hopefully, Madam Speaker, we will have time at the committee stage for some of these questions to be answered by the Minister for Space, but, at this stage, I will support the bill through to the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u0022c21365dbdd8b490c9982a407fdcecb75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c21365dbdd8b490c9982a407fdcecb75\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Can I just say I always admire as we sit here in urgency the House staff and the security staff that serve us so faithfully, and it\u2019s appropriate that we would be here in urgency passing this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EI did hear the call from the Greens, the question about, \u201CWell, what about the Pacific?\u201D It\u2019s an interesting one. Of course, New Zealand has not just security interests in the Pacific but we\u2019re a Pacific nation and we\u2019re a good friend and a good partner. Of course we\u2019re interested in that, but first we need to sort out our interests at home. We need to get our own house in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what this bill, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill, is about, and how appropriate that the world\u2019s first Minister for Space would be the one to bring it to the House. I commend this bill. We should all vote Aye.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022622cb4453f1c4e2ca5f34daab029e603\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022622cb4453f1c4e2ca5f34daab029e603\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure and honour and privilege to commend our Minister for Space, the Hon Judith Collins, for putting this bill, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill, to the House. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022003cd50ca8724ecd9a53f36a1da36cf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022003cd50ca8724ecd9a53f36a1da36cf9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce00fc62200c4a14904d0f9a238bf22d\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bff8a64dd6054ddbb57137d5e9bae79d\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Act 2017 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002248e42e4835924d0f8079c9ee671dddf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248e42e4835924d0f8079c9ee671dddf8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill. We come first to the debate on Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 3 to 25, \u201CAmendments to Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Act 2017\u201D, and the Schedule. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022649b11fb40a542549cfffe7e588259e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022649b11fb40a542549cfffe7e588259e3\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to start with clause 5, which is the amendment of the interpretation section. I have three different points to make on this for some clarity. The first one is about \u201Cauthorisation holder\u201D, and I mentioned in my first reading speech\u2014and I got a nod from the Minister for Space, but I think, and I would like her to confirm this\u2014that the term \u201Cauthorisation\u201D is used throughout this bill to be a point of difference from licences and permits, which are already existing for launch activities in the primary legislation. That\u2019s one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe second question is around ground-based infrastructure, and I\u2019ve asked now in a couple of the speeches what it is that the Minister imagines will be included in that ground-based infrastructure. We saw in the regulatory impact statement that there were 21 different groups consulted. Again, is the Awarua, the SpaceOps, that we heard Ingrid Leary talk about in Awarua in the South and also in the North in Warkworth\u2014is that something that\u2019s included? T\u0101whaki\u2014is that something that would be included, or it\u2019s the runway, so it doesn\u2019t count? The Rocket Lab\u2014if the Minister could go through some examples of what she considers in and out, I think that would be very useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen the third question is just, really, I think, a point of clarification, and that is: at \u201Cground-based space infrastructure\u201D, the definition, says \u201C(b) does not include either of the following:\u201D. One of either of the following is \u201Cany infrastructure or other equipment \u2026 of a type that is made or supplied primarily for personal, domestic, or household use:\u201D. Now, before I ask my question of clarification, I note that Tim van de Molen, before, referred to clause 7 and new section 49A(2)(b)(ii)\u2014that \u201Can activity carried out as a recreational pursuit or hobby:\u201D is not included. I\u2019ll come back to this later, but my question is whether or not this exclusion in clause 5 will not include amateur radio, known as ham radio operators, who communicate with amateur satellites. I think it would be very useful to have clarification of that point on the Hansard if the exclusion excludes those ham radio operators with the amateur satellites.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, if she could give some examples of the well-known ground-based space infrastructure that she considers will be covered by these regulations, and if she can confirm that the definition around authorisation as a point of differentiation between what already exists for the launch infrastructure being licensing and permitting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00221c3d0f0bf32944b7a894c1b2473901ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c3d0f0bf32944b7a894c1b2473901ea\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I too have a number of questions for the Minister for Space, but I think we will kind of go through this systematically, starting from, in this case, clause 5, amending section 4, which is around interpretation. One of the things that has been highlighted in the regulatory impact statement that was considered something that the Overseas Investment (OIA) does not capture is around\u2014for example, in paragraph 21C of the regulatory impact statement, it says the OIA will not cover services provided to foreign customers or collaborators by New Zealand - owned operated ground-based space infrastructure (GBSI), or when there is a sharing of some of the roles when it comes to GBSI. I\u2019m noticing that in terms of the authorisation holder here, the authorisation holder means the person who is the sole holder of GBSI activities. I just want to check with the Minister for Space: in those kind of situations, how does work that is considered collaborative considered? You know, you would consider\u2014who is the sole holder in that particular instance, particularly when we\u2019re looking at international collaboration between New Zealand and, let\u2019s say, another country?  On that and also, I guess, a follow-up of the question\u2014if that isn\u2019t something that\u2019s captured here and is still considered captured within the OIA, that is also something that I would like to hear from the Minister that that\u2019s something to consider as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFollowing on from the interpretation, one of the other things that I would like to ask the Minister around is the idea\u2014I wrote it down somewhere. When we\u2019re looking at ground-based space infrastructure, you know, particularly GBSI\u2014and this is going to be quite a, I guess, basic question for the Minister: is the GBSI that we\u2019re seeing separate from the space object that is being tracked? For example, do we have a situation where GBSI can be operated by the authorisation holder, and that authorisation allows that particular GBSI to track or to monitor all space objects, or a space object that is particularly within that jurisdiction of that GBSI? While they\u2019re applying for the authorisation, would that GBSI applying for that authorisation be required\u2014because I\u2019m not seeing it later on in terms of the application process\u2014to give a list of everything that they are particularly tracking, whether they have control or whether they\u2019re managing that particular space object or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m going to start with those two particular questions on the definition of \u201Cauthorisation holder\u201D and the definition of \u201CGBSI\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9a02c17081e419f909653fc6e6e857e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9a02c17081e419f909653fc6e6e857e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, the question I want to pose is whether or not the national interest test, which is set out in clause 7, new section 49C(4), of the bill, is precise enough and whether or not it would benefit from the support of a set of principles like those that apply to the national interest test for payloads. Just to remind folks, those principles prohibit payloads that would contribute to nuclear weapons programmes or capabilities; payloads with the intended use of harming, interfering with, or destroying other spacecraft or systems on Earth\u2014so war fighting in space; and payloads with the intended end use of supporting or enabling specific defence, security, or intelligence operations that are contrary to Government policy\u2014so payloads that might assist the fighting of some foreign war that it\u2019s not New Zealand\u2019s policy to support. I wonder whether or not there needs to be more work on the definition of the national interest when it comes to authorising and regulating ground-based space infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s self-evident, I think, that New Zealand does not want foreign interests hacking and intercepting or disrupting ground-based space infrastructure or using ground-based space infrastructure to do the hacking and disrupting. But, surely, it wouldn\u2019t be in our national interest either if ground-based space infrastructure was being deployed in New Zealand in ways that were not in our national interest. Imagine, for example, if there was a satellite communications interception station, ground-based space infrastructure, that engaged in mass surveillance of neighbouring and friendly countries and operated without any real parliamentary or public oversight. Imagine if that happened. I am of course talking about Waihopai, which ran from 1989 to 2021 and did exactly that without any real parliamentary or public oversight. It engaged in mass surveillance of our neighbouring and friendly countries. It was run by the Government Communications Security Bureau, and it was ground-based space infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe question, I think, and the lesson, really, from all that was that ground-based space infrastructure on New Zealand\u2019s soil can be used for foreign surveillance purposes without our full awareness or consent. I think that right now, in the current environment with private firms with defence clients building space infrastructure, we risk repeating the same mistake in a new era. I think it\u2019s too simple to think that it\u2019s just about regulating to protect New Zealand\u00A0-\u00A0based operations from bad actors who might want to engage in espionage or foreign interference or disruption. If we don\u2019t regulate with a rigorous and precise national interest test, we run the risk of those private firms in our territory that could be, for example, supporting foreign wars that it\u2019s not our New Zealand\u2019s policy to be part of or prosecuting or mass surveillance that\u2019s not consistent with our foreign policy or our national interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI think that is precisely the current problem with the launch programme, which has a better, more rigorous, and precise national interest test but no transparency to ensure that the public can be reassured. I\u2019m interested to hear from the Minister for Space whether or not she thinks that the current national interest test in the primary legislation would benefit from the kind of principles that she currently employs in considering the national interest test in relation to payloads and whether this ground-based space infrastructure regulatory framework would be strengthened by that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4743add639a4dba863f45fd3e470243\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4743add639a4dba863f45fd3e470243\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister for Space):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, members, for your questions. I realise that members haven\u2019t been able to see the bill, in most cases, until this evening, so don\u2019t take anything I say as a criticism or anything. I know you\u2019re coping with the fact that it was only on the Table today. We have been able to be in a position to brief some members of the Intelligence and Security Committee, because this is a very important issue that we\u2019re dealing with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI will, of course, refer to some of the points: that this is an amendment bill, that it goes into the primary legislation, so issues like the national interest tests are clearly within the primary legislation. I will point everyone to new section 49C of the amendment bill, inserted by clause 7, which deals with the considerations that need to be taken into account when seeking authorisation or the Minister for Space giving authorisation. I\u2019m sorry to talk about myself as a third party, but I know that in the future, at some stage, after a decade or so, there may be another Minister in that role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOne of the issues that we have is that we have had instances of people\u2014companies, supposedly research organisations\u2014using or seeking to use ground-based space infrastructure (GBSI) in New Zealand, with unwitting and innocent owners of the land or operators of the infrastructure being, essentially, fooled into thinking they were dealing with people who said that they weren\u2019t who they are. When we look at this, it is very important to realise, too, that this is nothing about payloads. It\u2019s got nothing to do with it\u2014nothing to do with this amendment bill. It\u2019s in the primary Act that\u2019s been in place since 2017. This is all to do with people using the ground-based space infrastructure to access other people\u2019s communications, possibly to use some form of shifting\u2014possibly satellites, of course, if they could do that. It is quite a serious issue, given that so much of our communications and even our banking is done through satellite activity, including\u2014might I say, for some people, even more importantly\u2014their rugby games. So it is really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI thought I\u2019d take some of the issues that were raised. The use of the term \u201Cauthorisation\u201D is signalling a different approach to licensing for launch, because it\u2019s not licensing for launch or payloads\u2014because it\u2019s not about payloads. But what could be included\u2014and there\u2019s a question from Hon Rachel Brooking about that, if I can just give her some assurance what that means: it\u2019s activities carried out by companies like, for instance, Space Operations New Zealand at Awarua. It will cover radio and optical GBSI, which is the ground-based space infrastructure. It will cover commercial operators and research institutes that are undertaking regulated activity, but it won\u2019t be including hobby activities including ham radio lobbyists\u2014hobbyists, I should say, rather than lobbyists. And lobbyists too, by the way. It will also exclude things like cell phones and television satellite dishes, which is a great bonus to us all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is important that there is a holder of an authorisation who is the person who controls the GBSI, because that has clearly become a problem\u2014that not everybody who says that they are this person are actually really that person. They often could be representing, particularly, a foreign-based actor who may not want to go through the sorts of security clearances that we expect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EGBSI is different from space objects. Yes, they\u2019re all very different, but GBSI operators could track spacecraft they own or operate, or they could track spacecraft owned or operated by someone else, including for surveillance. I think, on the national interest front\u2014it\u2019s been raised tonight by members about how do I define whether or not it\u2019s the national interest. Well, if we go to section 56 of the primary Act, it\u2019s very clearly there\u2014certificates given by the security agencies to the Minister or the security Minister, or the Prime Minister. It\u2019s also, if you look at new section 49C, inserted by clause 7, having to look at all these other issues. It\u2019s about national security, public safety, international relations, or other national interests\u2014and that\u2019s in 49C(4)(a) to (d). Those, I think, are some of the issues that were raised by the Hon Phil Twyford, so they\u2019re in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, don\u2019t forget that we have regulations that will be coming with this. While the regulations and the full force of this law will not take effect until, basically, one year away, in the meantime, the Minister will be able to actually use national security as a way of cancelling the use of these particular bases. So it\u2019s very important this is done quite quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI would also take the opportunity to say to members that over the last little while\u2014over the last few years\u2014we have, as a nation, had to help other Pacific nations around this issue, where certain foreign actors may have, at times, sought to use other countries to put in ground-based space infrastructure without telling those countries what they\u2019re actually doing. We have been able to tell these other nations, which means that they can take some action. All we\u2019ve been able to do in this country is to ask people on whose land it is to please cooperate. That is no longer something we can take for granted, and so it is very important that we get this sorted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe other point\u2014I think it was made from the Green member around other Pacific nations, as well, and what help we could give them. Well, this is quite an edgy piece of legislation in terms of not everyone else has got it yet. What is really clear: we get this through, we get our regulations done\u2014I think it\u2019s very important that we make this available to other Pacific neighbours who might well want to take advantage of this themselves and slot it into their law. I think that one of the obligations but also the duties we have as a Pacific country is, where we can, to help our neighbours, because they\u2019re often up against people with significant resources and significant pressure and levers. This would help them as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc37e841bfc74d0e8e552f8122f10c27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc37e841bfc74d0e8e552f8122f10c27\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to get some clarification from the Minister for Space in terms of some of the questions that were asked. I think the Minister was talking around it, but just to be more specific, would Waihopai, for example, fall under this legislation? It was ground-based space infrastructure (GBSI) when it was fully operational, and they would monitor satellites and so on and so forth. So would that fall under this as well? I also would assume\u2014and I do want to check with the Minister as to whether this is accurate or not\u2014that Rocket Lab in M\u0101hia would fall under this legislation as well, given that if you\u2019re going launch something up in space, you\u2019ve got to be able to monitor it at some particular point in time, so it\u2019s a question around coverage in terms of what\u2019s happening there already. I\u2019d like to get an answer on that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThere was also an interesting point made around the authorisation and the collaborations to make with authorisations as well. I think the committee understands that somebody could be setting up a GBSI and they\u2019re working with someone, but they might not know that this other group or company is being influenced by nefarious actors or by foreign actors and they haven\u2019t been upfront with it. How does that work? How does the legislation enable that person, that group, that might not know that they\u2019re being used and what are the steps for that clarity to be reached?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESo there are two questions there. One of them is around: is it going to cover Waihopai and Rocket Lab? Also, there\u2019s that question around the authorisation, because I think it would be important to get that clarity for people out there. I note that you reached out to 21 operators as well, so maybe there are some specific examples that the ministry might be able to use to actually illustrate the different points or the answers that I\u2019m seeking. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002221a561a124e34674b051f5939a7f1c4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221a561a124e34674b051f5939a7f1c4a\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Minister for Space):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. There is an exemption for operations from New Zealand Defence Force and also for our security agencies. So when you\u2019re talking about various activities that we take in order to keep our country and our neighbours safe, those will be exempt. But in terms of all other commercial activities, they\u2019re of course covered by it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc6fc7f3ea1b447ea9f40e1673586799\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc6fc7f3ea1b447ea9f40e1673586799\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Ryan Hamilton\u2014I\u2019m always hesitant to call you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce60412ef6504fcb842cfe7552659536\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce60412ef6504fcb842cfe7552659536\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227e35c14baec7432da773cc2a67d51747\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e35c14baec7432da773cc2a67d51747\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No. We\u2019re in urgency. We\u2019re not ready for that yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00221facb726d3c9456194ff4bae52e42332\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221facb726d3c9456194ff4bae52e42332\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank the Minister for Space for acknowledging that some of us have only seen the bill this evening and have not had a briefing around this either. Thank you for taking the questions that we\u2019ve asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI do want to just tease out that bit\u2014I did read, obviously, new section 49C(4) and (5) that the Minister mentioned, and I do get that the national interest test here does include risks to national security, public safety, and so on. It\u2019s really (5) that I was referring to in my contribution, where it says, \u201CBefore granting a GBSI activity authorisation, the Minister may consult the intelligence and security agencies about\u2014(a) \u2026 risks \u2026 and (b) the extent to which the risks can be mitigated by authorisation conditions.\u201D It\u2019s that bit around \u201Cmay\u201D, where it seems optional to me rather than a requirement, and that\u2019s the point that I was trying to make and the clarification that I was seeking and continue to seek.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe other bit that I spoke about, Minister, is around clause 10, \u201CSection 53 amended\u201D, down to subclause (7), so \u201CReplace section 53(4)(a) with:\u201D, and there\u2019s a whole list of\u2014\u201Cin the case of a launch licence\u201D. The Minister outlined the difference between the launch and the permits relating to payload, if I understood correctly, versus the authorisation, which refers to the activity which is being regulated here. But there is, in (7)(a), \u201Cin the case of a launch licence, payload permit, overseas launch licence,\u201D\u2014and so on and so forth\u2014\u201Cor high-altitude licence, must consult the security Ministers in accordance with section 55; and [then] (aa) in the case of a GBSI activity authorisation, may consult the intelligence and security agencies about\u2014(i) [the] risks \u2026 and [again] (ii) the extent to which the risks can be mitigated\u201D. That\u2019s my second question around the difference there and whether the Minister could give us an explanation as to the difference in requirement there to consult with security Ministers between the launch licence, etc., and the activity authorisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s one part of the questions that I\u2019d raised in both my contributions to the first and second readings. I did also have a question around clause 5, going back. Of course, that is around the definition of \u201CGBSI\u201D in that clause and also \u201Cregulated activity\u201D that\u2019s defined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EMy question is really around the options that are laid out in the regulatory impact statement (RIS). I\u2019ve had a quick read of them this evening in the sense that I get outside of the counterfactual, which I\u2019m not considering for the reasons that everyone\u2019s traversed in this Chamber\u2014clearly there is a need for this. Outside of that, the other two options that didn\u2019t make the cut\u2014so the introduction of the notification and call-in regime\u2014I\u2019m assuming were too lax perhaps and wouldn\u2019t necessarily lead to the national security risk mitigation that we\u2019re looking for in this legislation. The analysis of option two in the RIS\u2014it says, \u201Cas the least stringent of the options considered, it was the least regulatory cost to both.\u201D It was a light-touch regulatory option. My question to the Minister is: was there a consideration of starting with that and then escalating to a tighter system, perhaps? Obviously, that was not the option that Cabinet has settled on, but I\u2019m keen to get a sense of the Minister\u2019s thinking around those options that were laid out and some of the costs and benefits of those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5bb27d938cb4ea690b1f9e4311273fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5bb27d938cb4ea690b1f9e4311273fa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House is suspended until 9.a.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250722a5bd9ba5b025443bb3fdba05da69594e000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.56 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229908ef6b88b34011a0209eaa76568b09\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 22 JULY 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002216db55d7da4c4553a2911393313e0238\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 23 July 2025)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c2a1c6d24d3470fad3610008a3b26d0\u0022\u003EOuter Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022020d8ab5ca0e4a579e0cf519530166e5\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c582a7666c5b4d2ebbd789727993b3f2\u0022\u003EPart 1 Amendments to Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Act 2017 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00227aefb45350594200a77758627dd8f700\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227aefb45350594200a77758627dd8f700\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. The committee is resumed on the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill. When we suspended last night, we were debating Part 1. Once again, the question is that Part 1 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022508d92e86fcf44d7afcacbf1d81b885e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022508d92e86fcf44d7afcacbf1d81b885e\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. As you noted last night, we were on Part 1\u2014near the start of Part 1\u2014and the Minister had engaged with a range of questions, which was very helpful to us because, of course, we\u2019re in all-stages urgency and this is the only chance for us to ask questions and to get things on the Hansard, as well, which I think is helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOne of the questions that she answered yesterday\u2014I was asking if she could name some of the places that have this space infrastructure, and she confirmed that SpaceOps NZ, which is in Awarua near Bluff and also in Warkworth, would definitely be covered. But I didn\u2019t hear her say about the organisations that do both the launching\u2014sorry, at M\u0101hia Rocket Lab\u2014but also the horizontal launching at T\u0101whaki; if they would be covered or not. So it would just be useful to know the answer to those two questions\u2014those two places specifically\u2014and if there\u2019s any longer list of the places that are already existing, not an exhaustive list, but if there are other places that would be captured by this. That\u2019s just helpful to know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso confirming: I think she mentioned that universities and scientists would be covered, so they\u2019re not exempt. We were talking about ham radio operators being exempt\u2014so just to confirm that around new section 49A, which is clause 7. Then I\u2019ll go through a bit further. We\u2019ve also, to the Minister in the chair, a number of us have asked questions about the role of mana whenua in this. I don\u2019t think that was commented on. If I go through now, I\u2019ve got a couple of things I just want to touch on that the Minister might be able to answer quite quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAt clause 7 and new section 49D\u2014maybe on page 8 of the bill\u2014there\u2019s mention of a \u201Cspecified person or class of [person]\u201D, and I was wondering if the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac0d4c12f7484a4baf0ef5eadb1d3f95\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Achoo!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295cf44cdd8a34651881e3ca614a3075b\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Bless you. That was quite the interjection. I hope the member is well. The question there is just if there is any example of a specified person; that\u2019s referred to at (1)(b). I\u2019m just going through my bill. Another thing where it might be useful to have examples is at clause 21 and new section 83B, which is the direction to stop providing electricity or internet services to the space infrastructure\u2014if there are any examples of that sort of thing happening anywhere else in the world, where that idea to stop providing electricity or internet services came from, and if that covers everything or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, it would be also good\u2014and other speakers might ask for specific questions on this\u2014but we are amending the principal Act, which obviously will say how regulations are made. It would be useful for the Minister to discuss how the regulations will be made that are set out in clause 24\u2014the new regulations; what sort of consultation there will be with people, given that this is all in urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI also want to bring the Minister\u2019s attention to an amendment, in my name, that is to enable a post-enactment review, because this is going through all stages in urgency. We accept the Minister has said that it needs to go through urgency and that there is a real need for this legislation to be in place. So, whilst we accept that, it would be useful to have a post-enactment review in case there are mistakes or somebody is going to be impacted in a way that we haven\u2019t thought of during our time here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThis amendment in my name suggests going to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. However, I\u2019m very happy, if the Minister is interested in this amendment, for that select committee to be the Intelligence and Security Committee, maybe, or the Regulations Review Committee might be another one. Then I\u2019ve also said, in this amendment, that that select committee should report back to the House no later than 25 November 2025. So, again, that date is entirely arbitrary and one that I picked based on Tuesdays, because this Act is going to come into effect on a Tuesday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EVery happy for the Minister to suggest amendments to that and table other amendments or for the Minister to do that. But the point of this is that that committee would scrutinise the legislation that\u2019s already operative, so the timing issue isn\u2019t an issue, but properly look at the legislation and engage with those people who know about space infrastructure and then report back. Then, if the House agrees to those recommendations, then amendments suggested by that committee are treated as an amendment bill with the bill proceeding without all of the stages that we would have in a normal amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThat is the suggestion. I\u2019d be very keen to hear the Minister\u2019s views on that. As I say, the time frames and the select committees or if there are any changes\u2014we are very pleased to discuss those. But the point is we\u2019re going through all-stages urgency. We accept that there\u2019s a reason for all-stages urgency, but there is no opportunity for us to have good engagement with people who know about the subject matter, and this would provide an opportunity for that to happen without inhibiting the bill from commencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002238d763e0ba954655be1874aecd4ced8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238d763e0ba954655be1874aecd4ced8c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and good morning to all members of the committee. A couple of interesting contributions already, one by the Hon Rachel Brooking and one by another member\u2014I didn\u2019t see who sneezed, but I hope she\u2019s recovering. Ladies and gentlemen, a number of issues have been raised, both reiterating comments and discussions from last night by the honourable member, and I have the benefit of some of the analysis that flowed from those questions asked last night and now this morning, too. So please indulge me, members of the committee, if I run through those as best I\u2019m able in terms of understanding the discussion that\u2019s taken place so far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe first is around the point about the coverage of the Acts, as compared with those different locations, versus those that the members asked as to whether they\u2019d be covered by the ambit of the regime\u2014up in Warkworth, which is an area within my patch, was referred to, as well as down South, where the member herself hails from. But in terms of vertical or horizontal launches, these would be covered, I understand, if they operate ground-based space infrastructure\u2014that\u2019s within the scope of the regime. So there\u2019s no attempt to exclude or include more explicitly than that. But I should point out, for the sake of completeness, that activities that are already covered by the principal Act and are not being brought in or out of the regime by the amendment can be understood to be captured or otherwise already, in those terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for \u201Ca specified person\u201D, that will be a person specified in regulation. And I\u2019m sorry, that sounds quite circular and possibly unhelpful at this point\u2014except to say, of course, the regulation-making power, as the members referred to, will contain a certain amount of the necessary detail. That will be able to be updated as time goes on, in the way that regulations are more readily updated, of course, than primary legislation. So I\u2019d point out that, in terms of the member\u2019s thoughtful suggestion that a post-enactment review be mandated by the legislation, a certain amount of the detail will be under constant review by way of that regulatory process, including any regulatory review, but also, there\u2019s a constant review\u2014with a small \u201Cr\u201D\u2014that takes place, of course, in terms of the operation of any legislation. This being an amendment bill, the amending provisions would be reviewed constantly for effectiveness and also the extent to which they interact with other rights and responsibilities of New Zealanders, particularly. The Minister for Space feels\u2014and I, in her place, am happy to relay but also support the notion\u2014that we don\u2019t need to specify a mandated review mechanism, be it in front of the Intelligence and Security Committee or, indeed, the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, as per the original proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of turning off electricity as being a particular action that might be taken, the intent there, or the enabling of that action, is to prevent the remote operation of such infrastructure while a disposal order is carried out. So it buys a bit of time, in that sense, pending the disposal, and that\u2019s where it\u2019s deemed to be necessary on national interest grounds. And, just referring to the wording of the legislation, conditions imposed by the Minister are said to be those \u201Cwhich may include, without limitation,\u201D\u2014you know, those that are specified in the bill. So it\u2019s deliberately not excluding the range of conditions or actions that might be taken\u2014noting, of course, that in this highly technical realm and with developing technology, it might well be the case that there are conditions or actions that might be necessary in the future that we\u2019re not able to contemplate now and would be inappropriate to calcify in primary legislation, as compared with responding on an ongoing basis through enactment of regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for urgency, of course, the member is rightly diligent to note that we need to examine, as carefully as we can within the context, the bill, and, of course, the committee of the whole House stage is at least one way of doing that. But I think it\u2019s also worth reiterating a point that was probably made last night\u2014in fact, I\u2019m certain that it was\u2014that this is an urgent proposition and the attention of the House, including its committee today, is important to deal with the issue as expeditiously as possible so that we can have the benefit of, effectively, these defensive measures in the case of those who would do harm to New Zealand and its national interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll leave my contribution there; I see my five minutes is nearly up. But I will acknowledge the point made around consultation and say, again, there\u2019s nothing to preclude that on an ongoing basis in terms of the way that the Act is operating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022492c375c86514aeb887460f08a45e028\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022492c375c86514aeb887460f08a45e028\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to pick up on some of the answers that the Minister just gave us, I think the point with the post-enactment review is that, yeah, everyone around the committee understood what the Minister was saying: a gap needed to be plugged, and there is broader acceptance of that around the committee. I think the point is that you have to actually be sure that the wheels are going to stay on the wagon\u2014are all the nuts and bolts actually screwed on properly? So a post-enactment review would enable us to actually have a more thorough look at it to make sure that it does what it says that it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAnother question around the turning off the electricity part of it: I was wondering, well, what does that mean for people that are on solar, what does it mean if they\u2019re on battery\u2014how will the regulator know that? They might think that, actually, this ground-based space infrastructure (GBSI) is not doing what they said it was going to do so they\u2019re going to turn off the electricity, and they think that\u2019s all going to be fine. But, actually, there are lots of different ways around it, so I guess it\u2019d be good to understand practical ways of how the regulator would deal with that particular issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI also have another question around the application process. I guess the question is: if someone gets the permit to be able to run a GBSI, and it\u2019s a company, but then it on-sells that to somebody else and they on-sell it again and then, next thing you know, it\u2019s in the hands of a nefarious, possibly foreign actor that is counter to our national interest, how does that work\u2014how does the oversight happen on that, because, often, as we know, there are different kinds of arrangements that happen? So that is a question there around that possible scenario, which officials behind you might have already thought of\u2014possibly already have\u2014but I think it would be useful for the committee to understand that particular perspective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EJust coming back to the questions that have emerged about where exactly this applies, my hearing of it last night was that a situation like Waihopai wouldn\u2019t apply, because they\u2019ve got the Defence Force exemption, but that M\u0101hia would apply, because they don\u2019t have that exemption. But if I was wrong in terms of how I heard that, getting some clarification from the Minister about exactly what is being covered here, I think, would be really important. So those are my questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u002289aa6caae8d4402b98ba8cf5e7a242ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289aa6caae8d4402b98ba8cf5e7a242ad\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do have some questions for the Minister, but I just wanted to start by speaking in favour of my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s amendment. I think the response from the Minister was that there would be review of the relevant regulations, so there\u2019s not cause for concern in that regard. However, I do think that yesterday, when the Minister spoke in the chair, she spoke about the regulations coming into force after a year and that she would be exercising powers in the meantime. So there are aspects that aren\u2019t attached to the technical content of the regulations that, in my view, ought to be examined, ordinarily by a select committee. In this case, we don\u2019t have that opportunity and so, in my view, the proposal is a valid one because there are very unique powers, in my view, that are being exercised within the national security space which otherwise wouldn\u2019t be examined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe other issue that potentially wouldn\u2019t be examined in the ordinary process of creating the regulations is something that is unique to the House itself, which is whether the substantive content of the regulations is best suited to primary legislation or to regulation. Certainly, that happens through some Parliamentary Counsel Office advice to the Attorney-General, but my view is that that\u2019s a legislative function, and, again, ordinarily that would happen within select committee processes. So in terms of those two aspects in particular, it doesn\u2019t feel to me that there is post-legislation scrutiny on them. So, again, I\u2019m just speaking in favour of that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThere are some other specific questions just resulting from the discussion yesterday. The definition of \u201Cprotective security arrangements\u201D in regulation 3(1) lists not an exhaustive list but things that the applicant, if you like, would need to include. There has been a lot of discussion about nefarious actors and third-party actors, and I did wonder whether there was consideration of being more explicit in that provision, so speaking explicitly about corruption, explicitly about bribery, and what requirements, what investigations would need to be made of third-party actors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also looking at clause 6, \u201CSection 6 amended (Act binds the Crown)\u201D, which is the exemptions section that a few others have touched on. I was curious as to the meaning of new section (2)(b)(i). That\u2019s the exemption for the New Zealand Defence Force, but it\u2019s also an exemption for \u201Ca person assisting or providing services to, or working jointly with, the New Zealand Defence Force;\u201D. I wonder if the Minister could give us an understanding of the scope of that and whether that could include foreign actors who we act in partnership with, as well, and what the intended scope of that inclusion is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe other exclusion is new section 6(2)(b)(iii), which lists \u201Can intelligence and security agency;\u201D. My question there is whether the intention is for that to read \u201CNew Zealand intelligence and security agency\u201D. The reason I ask the question is because in new paragraph (iv), just under it, it specifies \u201Cthe New Zealand Police\u201D. So just considering whether there\u2019s a need for an amendment there, or whether there\u2019s a definition that I haven\u2019t spotted that makes it clear that we\u2019re speaking here about the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022211190b1590f4646a6a119b9a6ef1ad4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022211190b1590f4646a6a119b9a6ef1ad4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019m seeking to take a call to respond to the thoughtful questioning from both members who have contributed, in the hope of staying on top of the issues that have been raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe wheels on wagon metaphor raised by Teanau Tuiono\u2014of course, he\u2019s right to say that we need to identify if the wheels might fall off a regime, but there are ways of doing that other than by specifying in statute that a particular type of review must take place at a particular time. To extend the metaphor, if the wheels are wobbly or the vehicle is otherwise not proceeding as it should in the right direction and in a smooth fashion, then it\u2019s incumbent upon the Government of the day\u2014including the Government agencies for which there is regulatory stewardship responsibility\u2014to investigate that. It seems to me that this is a matter that is sufficiently high stakes that the appropriate degree of scrutiny as to the ongoing operation of the regime would be considered and watched carefully, such that any such shortfalls or mechanical difficulties would be identified in a timely fashion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for turning off electricity as a particular mechanism, I take the member\u2019s point that solar and other ways of operating electricity exist beyond the traditional way. If not a switch to be flicked on or off, I assume that there are ways that power could be disabled in the way that\u2019s contemplated by the legislation in respect of GBSI, or ground-based space infrastructure. I was remiss in not having spelt that out earlier at least once, but the acronym from there on is probably\u2014hopefully\u2014acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for clarification in terms of whether the likes of M\u0101hia Peninsula activities are caught by the regime, I don\u2019t wish to be definitive in a way that would be unhelpful were I to seek to tender what would, effectively, be legal advice and be wrong. So I won\u2019t venture an opinion on that except to, again, just reiterate the point that to the extent that activities and locations are already captured by the primary legislation as to be amended, we\u2019re not necessarily displacing that by the addition of the measures in this amendment bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs to the points made by Vanushi Walters, I do take on board her point about regulations only being reviewable in that typical way, and also the time gap. If I may say, that seems to me a worthwhile point to make. Nevertheless, it happens all the time that the House will make a determination on that which is appropriate for the subject of primary legislation\u2014as opposed to secondary or tertiary\u2014at the point that the legislation is made, and then a determination of the content to fit within the regulations is made after. Of course, that\u2019s the nature of a regulation-making power, as my fellow alumni of the Regulations Review Committee will appreciate, so I\u2019m not sure that I can take that point much further except to acknowledge her having raised it. There\u2019s always a tension between the detail that one includes in primary legislation versus the expansive ability to add, over time, technical detail in regulations that may be amended in a much more timely and flexible manner later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for third-party actors, I suspect it would be unhelpful to be more specific about the types of nefarious activity that we might want to include, even in the way that we might say that there might be other types contemplated. It\u2019s probably typical within the realm of national security that we wouldn\u2019t want to bind our hands in a way that we would find unhelpful\u2014albeit, again, I acknowledge the tension between certainty and that going to the rule of law diktat, ordinarily, that the law must be knowable. I\u2019m hopeful that the measures in the bill would be applied in an appropriate and proportionate way, and I know that the Minister for Space would understand and take seriously those responsibilities\u2014not least of all because she\u2019s the Attorney-General and, of course, understands that balance of rights approach that\u2019s always appropriate, and no less in such occasions as this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for section 6 exemptions, I don\u2019t myself yet know if those working with the New Zealand Defence Force might include non-New Zealand agencies or entities. If I receive some advice on that in time to be helpful to the member, then I\u2019ll certainly look forward to relaying that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022e35c12047e30451aa9ce4cbd869742bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e35c12047e30451aa9ce4cbd869742bc\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to just direct attention to new section 3A of Part 3, inserted by clause 21: the provisions in 83A around disposal orders; 83B, giving the Minister the opportunity to unplug the electricity system; and 83C, forfeiture orders. These are, I think, by any measure quite Draconian provisions that give the Minister the power, if certain criteria are met, to order the disposal of private property and, ultimately, to put in place a forfeiture order. It\u2019s easy to imagine a scenario where that would result in very significant economic harm to the owner of that ground-based space infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI wonder, given how keen this Government is on enshrining the principle in law of compensation to the owners of assets that are affected by regulation, with the current passage through the legislative process of the Regulatory Standards Bill\u2014the Government is obviously very keen on that principle. I just wonder whether or not the Minister for Space has considered the possibility of, let\u2019s say, the Russians operating a bit of ground-based space infrastructure that we deem to be a threat to the national interest, or they\u2019ve somehow inveigled their way into some other private sector operator providing a service and yet, the data is ending up in the hands of the Russians\u2014just for argument\u2019s sake\u2014and the Government chooses to close that down, causing significant loss either to the Russians or their erstwhile partners. Would the Government consider compensation consistent with its adherence to the principle in the Regulatory Standards Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI\u2019d be keen to hear the Minister in the chair\u2019s view on that but, also, I wonder whether, in fact, the Government has considered that there are embassies and diplomatic missions in New Zealand who operate ground-based space infrastructure. They operate satellite technology that I\u2019m pretty certain would meet the definition of ground-based space infrastructure. If a diplomatic mission is conducting the interception of signals and so on from its properties here in the capital, and it was deemed to be doing so contrary to the national interest, would those diplomatic missions be covered by this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00227dd0a2a1a88b4c7fb09256e30f63c178\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dd0a2a1a88b4c7fb09256e30f63c178\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. I look forward to responding to those points made by Mr Twyford. To come back, however, first to the question that was posed by Ms Walters: there isn\u2019t a need to specify New Zealand in terms of security intelligence agencies because those terms are defined already in the principal Act, I understand. In terms of whether non - New Zealand actors could be said to be working with the New Zealand Defence Force such as to qualify for the exclusion, I\u2019m advised that they could be caught by such an exclusion. This may or may not help to assuage the fears of Mr Twyford, or at least to answer the question that he has raised in terms of non - New Zealand actors, be they embassies or high commissions acting in this country. I suspect that there would be important conversations at a diplomatic level if there was any need for activity of that nature. That would be well above my pay grade, I hasten to add.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI also hear his concern about Draconian powers to switch off. Yes, these are important and serious powers, but they\u2019re being legislated for a reason. By the way, I do acknowledge and thank the members opposite, so to speak, who have engaged with the principle of the legislation being important and, of course, asking questions to ascertain the detail. As far as those Draconian powers, and the segue into the Regulatory Standards Bill, I do wonder if Mr Twyford is signalling his intent to support that legislation, because he\u2019s obviously very concerned about the right to compensation. I would be very surprised if the disablement of Russian ground-based infrastructure were to enable Vladimir Putin to get a red cent\u2014and I use the phrase advisedly\u2014as a result of this regime. I think he can feel as assured as possible on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00227e474f11422042ffb6fa9e347f695cf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e474f11422042ffb6fa9e347f695cf0\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a number of questions for the Associate Minister of Defence, because we\u2019re still on clauses 6 and 7, largely, and there are still a number of areas that should be covered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThank you to the Minister for his excellent, as always, response to our questions. I think to start with, in terms of the review clause, I want to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to the regulatory impact statement (RIS), paragraph 145, which is around the fact that the principal Act includes the provision\u2014in fact, in section 86 of the principal Act it actually includes a three-year review provision. The recommendation here is that we propose a similar provision to be included for review of the operation and effectiveness of the ground-based space infrastructure (GBSI) regulation regime two years after the commencement. However, that is not present in this bill, despite that being the recommendation in the regulatory impact statement. I just also want to support the tabled amendment by the Hon Rachel Brooking on this because, again, it is something that we see stated in the RIS but not reflected in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI just also want to pick up on what the Minister mentioned before and what the Hon Phil Twyford questioned in terms of what happens if we have this one-year transition period and, after, that the Minister is able to authorise the permit\u2014yes, in some ways the permit\u2014for the operations of GBSI. I want to pick up on what it says on page 10 of the departmental disclosure statement. I want to just check in terms of the reading here because it does say in 4.1 that the Minister has the power to require an operator to dispose of their interest. But right at the end, it says\u2014you know, this could potentially go to a District Court\u2014\u201Cthe constable to dispose of the interest or right and pay any proceeds of the disposal to the recipient of the disposal order.\u201D Would those proceeds also include, then\u2014if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind elaborating\u2014the cost of the interest in its entirety, or at least the market value of the cost of that particular interest, as part of that court order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just going to pick up on some of the conversations that we\u2019ve had, and I just want to go into a little bit more detail around there. Picking up on something the Minister for Space mentioned last night\u2014this is a question that I signalled in my second reading\u2014which is, in the regulatory impact statement, there were four options given to how we could look at managing some of the gaps that we have in the current legislation around GBSI. The most persuasive options were options three and four; option three is authorisation regime, option four is licensing. The Minister mentioned about licensing yesterday so I wanted to check with the Minister in the chair today on whether the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind elaborating on the decision between, why in the end, we decided to go with option three, the authorisation regime, and not option four in terms of licensing\u2014because they seem to be, according to the RIS, of equal footing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOne of the other questions I had, which hasn\u2019t been responded to, is around the definition of \u201Cauthorisation holder\u201D. In section 4, amended by clause 5(1), it talks about the person who is the sole holder of a GBSI, whereas I mentioned yesterday that in the Overseas Investment Act it talks about the possibility of a collaborator. So how would a collaborator be considered under this legislation when the authorisation holder is a sole holder? Without the sole holder it naturally encompasses collaboration, because in the example that is on page 4, it talks about person A and person B, and if person B, for lack of a better term, sublets that particular control from person A, the sole holder is still person A and not person B. But it still doesn\u2019t go into any elaboration on collaboration, and it doesn\u2019t specify\u2014in this case, I\u2019m assuming the accountability, and anything that person A has to answer to, falls on person A and not person B? So if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy final question, noticing that I\u2019m very short on time, but I do have another question if I may, Madam Chair? My final question is around clause 7\u2014Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b26df72a8ca42ae862f32b889eec85f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Lawrence Xu-Nan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c048146adfc4332adcbdb4b18a5b30a\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. My final question is around new section 49A, inserted by clause 7, subclause 2A(i), and that is around communicating with a space object. Again, it kind of goes back to what I wanted to ask about accountability. When we are looking at communicating with a space object and also anything that\u2019s relating to a GBSI, you\u2019re also in the process of collecting data. I want to check with the Minister, from a data-protection and also data-sovereignty perspective, as part of the requirement for authorisation, whether the Minister would consider requiring the operator of GBSI to give a copy or all copies of data collected as a result of operation or be made available as a requirement of national interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, the regulatory impact statement was very clear that the reason we have something like this is mainly for our national interest and security, and particularly how it could be used for military purposes. I think it might be quite an important element for us to be able to at least readily view or require the operator to make the data they collect readily available by the relevant Minister in order for them to have the authorisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThose are a couple of my questions. If the Minister would elaborate on why has the bill gone against the advice of the regulatory impact statement for a two-year review, in paragraph 145; questions around the collaborator and the definition of sole holder; accountability measures; the difference between authorisation regime and licensing; and, finally, in terms of the requirement for the availability to review data that\u2019s been collected by the GBSI as a requirement for authorisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00225684247f15904f6fb7a0da180ea6d83a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225684247f15904f6fb7a0da180ea6d83a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I\u2019m grateful to Lawrence Xu-Nan for a typically thoughtful contribution from him\u2014and he\u2019s flattered me into giving as helpful a reply as I\u2019m able.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAt the risk of going round in circles on the point about a mandatory review versus a non-mandatory one, it seems, to me, clear that the Government decision has been around retaining flexibility in terms of the time frame and manner of such a review\u2014notwithstanding that there is advice that there could, or rather should, be a review specified in the primary legislation, with the rationale being that, as already canvassed with various colleagues, it will be helpful to monitor the ongoing operation and effectiveness of the Act. There are other ways to skin that cat, frankly, so the Government\u2019s view is that it\u2019s not necessary to specify that in primary legislation. I appreciate, in relation to the particular proposal put forward by the Hon Rachel Brooking and other comments made in the House, that that may be unsatisfying to some members of the committee, but I feel at this point I can\u2019t take that point much further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of the property rights argument, as expressed by the Hon Phil Twyford, but also with a link to the data sovereignty element raised by Dr Xu-Nan, I think it\u2019s worth exploring\u2014but briefly\u2014the mechanics of what would happen in the event of the measures being triggered within the Act, namely that there is a disposal order that would allow the person issued with it to dispose of their right or interest in an agreed manner. It might be that the switch be flicked at an agreed time or in an agreed way, and it could include selling those rights or interests\u2014and data, of course, could be conceived as being within the ambit of the rights and interests associated with the physical infrastructure. Where there is a forfeiture order, on the other hand\u2014as opposed to a disposal order\u2014the Act allows for sale proceeds to be returned to the person. So, unlikely as it might seem in the case of hostile foreign actors, for those of a less aggressive or unsavoury element, it might be that it\u2019s a matter of negotiation for the New Zealand Government to engage in a conversation about the way that the confiscation, effectively, of property rights not take place but instead an agreed and mutually beneficial outcome take place\u2014that the evil is avoided without undue impingement on the investment of those who might, for non-nefarious reasons, invest in ground-based infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of collaboration, and therefore accountability, I\u2019m not certain that there\u2019s much I can say about its interaction with the Overseas Investment Act regime, but I would say that the intent of the legislation is to appropriately capture the activities of those who are effectively, as opposed to nominally, undertaking them. It\u2019s my understanding from reading the legislation that there would be nothing to preclude as a nation\u2014\u201Cus\u201D being New Zealand and the Government through its various agencies\u2014from acting in a manner that would reflect the intent of the legislation. Notwithstanding that it might\u2014if you\u2019ll excuse the legal language, and I know you will, sir\u2014pierce the corporate veil in terms of the ownership and other structures around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for licensing versus authorisation: yes, both are possible regimes. The member rightly points out that these are both contemplated as possibilities within the regulatory impact statement. It seems to me that the Minister chose the authorisation route as best reflecting the balance that we wish to have in terms of being empowering but also enabling flexibility and, of course, balancing those considerations on which we have already touched.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFinally, in terms of the data sovereignty point, I should also add that the power under the Act is to seek necessary information, and to ask operators to provide all data wouldn\u2019t necessarily be practicable in the circumstances when that arose, whereas particular data could be stored if it\u2019s needed. Again, the effort is to provide as much prescriptive enablement of the functions that we all, I think, wish to see provided in legislation but without constraining ourselves in the manner that that might take place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00224b8a7917e2b84828b381c98885072a27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b8a7917e2b84828b381c98885072a27\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I do have a few questions that I would be keen to put to the Minister. But just before I get into that\u2014and I acknowledge the Associate Minister of Defence has said he\u2019s not going to move on the post-enactment review amendment; I take that point\u2014but I do want to register my emphatic support for my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s amendment, for the reasons outlined by her and by Vanushi Walters. It is disappointing that is not going any further, given the circumstances under which we are passing this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ETo my questions: I do want to put to the Minister a question that I put to the Minister for Space last night. I did see her nodding, but the House rose before I could get a response, so I will just lay that out again, and that is with regards to new section 49C(4)(b)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b63260d0f03458aa9a3e48068be12a8\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Repetition!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e23f0da1d07425b9b8d36c253a85187\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I didn\u2019t get an answer, Mr Doocey, so I have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293645b1fb3ce4a77937e3567987f0b86\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t say anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227db953f634c1444daad1d3c115365c9b\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh well, whoever said that; Tim, somebody. Anyway, what I want to know is, with regards to the national interests test and the regard that the Minister needs to pay to national security, specifically, it does say in new section 49C(5) that \u201CBefore granting a GBSI activity authorisation, the Minister may consult the intelligence and security agencies about\u2014\u201D, and it goes on to lay out the risks to national security and then the extent to which the risks can be mitigated through the authorisation conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister was why it seemed to be written in a way that it was optional rather than a requirement. Given the emphasis on national security for this piece of legislation, why is it not a requirement to consult with the relevant Minister and the relevant agencies, there? Related to that, in clause 7, \u201CReplace section 53(4)(a) with \u2026 in the case of a launch licence\u201D\u2014and it goes on to list a whole bunch of licences, and it says: \u201Cmust consult the security Ministers in accordance with section\u00A055; and \u2026 in the case of a GBSI\u201D\u2014this is (aa)\u2014\u201Cactivity authorisation, may consult the intelligence and security agencies about\u2014\u201D those two points: the risk and the mitigation to the risk. So just keen for some clarification why that consultation is not a requirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe other question I had was around what I understand is already happening, which is\u2014and I get that this legislation aims to capture operators and not the host of the GBSI\u2014but I understand that there are scenarios where the host is in New Zealand but the operator is offshore in a different country. Therefore, my question is whether this legislative regime would capture them in that scenario, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EMy final question that I want to raise is to tease out a little bit the options versus the funding model that is laid out or touched upon within the regulatory impact statement (RIS). There\u2019s a fair bit of detail and analysis around the different options considered, the four options considered. Totally take the point that\u2019s made in the RIS why option one\u2014which is the counterfactual\u2014was not the way to go, and option four was probably too heavy-handed given the cost requirements there. So I take that point and it seems to be between two and three, and the Minister and the Government has landed on option three. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EHowever, when it comes to the funding of the implementation, I would have thought that the concerns around effectiveness would have been both in the design of the scheme but also in the implementation of this regulatory framework. There is a fair bit of ongoing monitoring that is involved, as well, and yet it does say in the RIS somewhere that there isn\u2019t specific funding for the implementation of this. In another bit, it says that the anticipated estimated cost is of two fulltime-equivalents at the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment. It then goes on to say that the intelligence community may require further resources depending on the number of authorisations, but that they will need to assess as they go. So why wasn\u2019t it then, perhaps, a decision to land on option two, then to move to three? Was that considered? Just keen to get a sense of how this is going to be funded, because that leads to the effectiveness of the framework, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002256e3a669468d48819ea8bc10514b1961\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256e3a669468d48819ea8bc10514b1961\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00227181b44bba1e482193a6203cb06923be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227181b44bba1e482193a6203cb06923be\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Rachel Brooking, but before you begin your call, there is a lot of repetition that is now starting to come back. It doesn\u2019t matter how differently the questions are phrased; we keep a close track of what they\u2019re referring to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022407bb334df5c45e899acc26e661a88c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022407bb334df5c45e899acc26e661a88c8\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Well, Madam Chair, we\u2019re all going through this, and, as you know, we are in all-stages urgency\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3736405decc4a2abf27c1e985329369\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I do understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3a729858b7c4d4cbdf3899d8d313633\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and we\u2019re trying to work our way through this. I have some questions based on some of the Associate Minister of Defence\u2019s responses so far. I was asking about M\u0101hia and T\u0101whaki and he said he didn\u2019t want to get it wrong\u2014to get the answer wrong; I don\u2019t mean to be rude there at all. Can he clarify, then, the point is: if you already require, under the principal Act, a licence or permit for launching, but if you also have space infrastructure that will require the space infrastructure authorisation as well as whatever the launch ones are\u2014so that\u2019s one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, we\u2019ve been talking a bit about the disposal orders\u2014so that\u2019s at new section 83A, inserted by clause 21. The Minister just went through that process, and I note that a disposal order may \u201Cspecify any reasonable steps that must be taken in order to comply with the disposal order\u201D. So if the Minister can confirm: some of this equipment is very large and I imagine\u2014but can the Minister confirm my imagination\u2014that it\u2019s his expectation that any order would go through, in some detail, how it is that this large equipment would be disposed of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, I note that the Minister has talked about, at 83A(4), \u201CThe Minister must have regard to New Zealand\u2019s international obligations when acting under this section.\u201D Are those international obligations the compensation that he\u2019s referred to or is it something more than compensation, as well? Is it different trade agreements? Is it different treaties? What does he imagine that section to mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, wanting to just link all of that back into these questions about the host and the operator. So there\u2019s: \u201CAn authorisation holder must\u2014(a) comply with\u201D and give a whole lot of information when applying for the authorisation. So that\u2019s at new section 49D, inserted by clause 7. I\u2019m particularly interested in 49D(e) which is: \u201Cif the authorisation holder operates, or proposes to operate, [the infrastructure] to carry out regulated activities on behalf, or for the benefit, of another person, ensure that the authorisation holder has in place partner due diligence arrangements that meet the requirements\u201D, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI know, I\u2019ve visited space ops, just the one in the south, not the one in your electorate, Minister; this is big infrastructure and some of those\u2014my colleague Ingrid Leary described them as a Dr Seuss - type thing whereby the antenna come up and move around\u2014will be controlled offshore. Is it the idea that\u2014so in this case, the person on the ground, which happens to be a council-controlled organisation, would have to show the relationships that they have with those operators offshore to get the authorisation and then the regulator would have to be satisfied that there is the right security arrangements in place, or not satisfied, and therefore, they wouldn\u2019t be able to operate? That\u2019s of particular, very real economic importance to those operators, and I\u2019ve no doubt that they all want to do the best, I\u2019m not saying that\u2014but they will be interested in how these aspects are going to work in practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIf you\u2019ve got comments on that, and on what thought has gone into those relationships that the hosts\u2014they seem to be the hosts, to me, because they are the people who have the land, and the big bits of equipment are on their land, but the antennae, the tracking that they\u2019re doing on the satellites might be operated from offshore; how is that going to be regulated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022f578c704cca845d9bd9bc696f034811a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f578c704cca845d9bd9bc696f034811a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I love a good Dr Seuss reference and I feel like there\u2019s something about Oh, the Places You\u2019ll Go! in there. I feel like we\u2019re in that waiting room on page 7 of the book\u2014no, just kidding; I don\u2019t know the page number, but it\u2019s very familiar.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn response to the points made by the Hon Rachel Brooking in terms of the disposal of the large physical infrastructure, I think it\u2019s a question that I might have anticipated from a member of Parliament concerned with environmental considerations, and rightly so. I would think, however, that there\u2019d be nothing that would necessarily preclude the disposal of such infrastructure in a way that would be consistent with the usual manner of disposing of waste, as it would be by that point. The member will be more familiar with those legislative and regulatory frameworks than me, but it seems to me that it would need to be disposed of thoughtfully, but I don\u2019t think that\u2019s a matter to specify in this legislation in relation to, effectively, the data and space-related aspects of how the infrastructure is used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of international obligations, whether that goes beyond mere compensation, instinctively I would expect that it might, and we can all use our imagination about different international instruments to which New Zealand is a signatory that might become relevant, but, again, I think it\u2019s appropriate in terms of the background documentation and the legislation itself not to attempt an exhaustive list of what those obligations might be for fear of missing out some, or unduly emphasising the importance of others, in a way that\u2019s general, given the particular circumstances might dictate what is appropriate or not. And, of course, our international obligations do change over time as we enter into, and theoretically could withdraw from, international obligations of a bilateral or multilateral nature. So it seems sensible to me that we\u2019re not more specific about that, but I can\u2019t see a reason, personally, that it would be limited only to matters of compensation as to those obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs to the authorisation process and what would be necessary to demonstrate security and other relationships with non - New Zealand actors, I can imagine well that a thorough process of determining such factors and investigating them will be necessary for authorisation to be passed, but, again, it\u2019s not something that I can comment on in terms of the content of the law that\u2019s in front of us as to how those discussions might play out in any particular case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EPassing to the points made by the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan, to respond to that point that she\u2019s raised regarding whether the Minister for Space should be required, on a mandatory basis, to consult the security Minister; she\u2019s rightly pointed out that the Minister for Space \u201Cmay\u201D but we\u2019re not saying \u201Cmust\u201D. That\u2019s because, in practice, consultation will take place between the regulator\u2014which is the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, of course\u2014and security agencies for every authorisation application, as agreed from time to time by Cabinet. So that\u2019s, we think, a more efficient approach requiring consultation that would actually lead to the same outcome than necessarily requiring that particular formal element whereby consultation must take place in a way that\u2019s understood by that term. So we think that, overall, the regime will provide for appropriate advice to the decision-making Minister; and, of course, the Minister herself, or himself, potentially in the future, would make decisions on behalf of the Government, in any case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe other points made by Priyanca Radhakrishnan seem to me to be around costs and funding, and we think that the effectiveness of the design and implementation is appropriately set, but, again, all these matters are not set in stone and can be reviewed and should be reviewed in terms of practice as well as the policy over time. Then she\u2019s again made the point about the regulatory review proposal, and I\u2019d hate to repeat my own answer on that and thereby risk the committee of the whole House stage being shut down by the Chair\u2014because we wouldn\u2019t want that to happen, would we now?\u2014but if I were to dwell on it for one more moment, she said she wants to express her view on that. Of course, parties will be able to do that through a vote in due course, at some point, on the proposal as encapsulated by Ms Brooking\u2019s tabled amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002227330f9de898489d94c3f90536bbc4c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227330f9de898489d94c3f90536bbc4c0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I think there is still room for new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022838a7d6809114322a8d538619821c7e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022838a7d6809114322a8d538619821c7e1\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I actually just have quite a small question on an area that we haven\u2019t covered yet. This is clause 7, new section 49E, \u201CMinister may vary, revoke, or suspend GBSI activity authorisation\u201D. I actually just have a very small question on this. Understandably, the Minister may vary or potentially may revoke and suspend a particular authorisation, but can I just check if the Minister would consider\u2014if there\u2019s the scope, for example, to give a prior warning first, to say, \u201CLook, you are operating out of the scope of the particular thing.\u201D Is there going to be some sort of criteria that the Minister for Space is going to be looking at when there is a suspension of a particular authorisation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s actually, essentially, my question, which is around whether there might be a notification period to say, \u201CHey, we\u2019ve noticed something that you\u2019re not supposed to be doing. Please correct yourself before further actions might be taken.\u201D, or maybe it depends on severity\u2014that\u2019s it, you know, you violated it, you get your authorisation revoked. If the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind elaborating how that revocation would work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00227d92f8ff1df544598c96ec93ca6c4c63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d92f8ff1df544598c96ec93ca6c4c63\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I feel as though the mechanisms already have a degree of flexibility in the fact that there would be a discussion, or could be a discussion\u2014could be a discussion\u2014and the disposal of data in an agreed manner could contemplate the opportunity to respond, if the Minister, acting on behalf of the Government for the people of New Zealand, were to determine that was appropriate. So it seems to me there\u2019s nothing that precludes that, but, at the same time, we don\u2019t want to be so prescriptive in law, as in the other factors that have been raised, in a way that would be unhelpful in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u00228a914211d38d473ab6e587683609fdfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a914211d38d473ab6e587683609fdfd\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to respond to the Minister\u2019s response on a question relating to exemptions. This is actually more to do with the Minister\u2019s lack of power in terms of granting an exemption or preventing an exemption, on the basis of the Minister\u2019s response. I asked a question earlier about new section 6(2)(b)(i), in terms of who that exemption would apply to. The response was that it could apply to a foreign actor as well, potentially. My colleague the Hon Phil Twyford asked questions about embassies in New Zealand. Putting those two together, it feels to me like partners such as our Five Eyes partners could potentially fit into that space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ENow there may, of course, be times when it is appropriate that an exemption would be granted. However, on New Zealand territory, it would seem to me that that ought to be a decision of the Minister, in terms of the scope of an exemption. I\u2019m not ordinarily one to argue for an increase to discretionary powers, but it just feels to me, in light of the way that clause is drafted, that either ministerial discretion should apply or the clause should be drafted more closely. Another example of how the clause could be drafted more closely is that there\u2019s also an exemption for a person who\u2019s \u201Cproviding services to \u2026 the New Zealand Defence Force\u201D. That\u2019s it. It\u2019s not couched by more limiting language. I wonder whether the Minister would be open to limiting that, for example, by including the words \u201Csecurity or intelligence service\u201D to the New Zealand Defence Force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just wondering whether there is either an appetite for more closely drafted language to ensure that New Zealand is still retaining its autonomy in terms of potential third-party actors or whether, appropriately, the Minister should have discretion to prevent an exemption from being granted in certain circumstances\u2014and, if so, whether that should be drafted into the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6596b2066984e3f9537b7bfc341c601\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6596b2066984e3f9537b7bfc341c601\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think I understand the point made by Vanushi Walters, but I also think that the discretion could be applied\u2014or would be applied in practice\u2014at the stage that the New Zealand Defence Force would choose to work with the other partners, be they other Government agencies of New Zealand, including the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service or the Government Communications Security Bureau, potentially, or overseas players. I think there\u2019d be enough flexibility in the system such that they could choose with whom they work. Therefore, to give the Minister either more power or discretion, on the one hand, or to more tightly constrain her or him, on the other hand, isn\u2019t necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022874a15cca9f441e6ab9cfecd01840a49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022874a15cca9f441e6ab9cfecd01840a49\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a3fe40e6304848a48953b2d7f067b2e5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002259a9b809d6e5455081e170630f6a6e44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259a9b809d6e5455081e170630f6a6e44\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s tabled amendment to Part 1, providing for post-enactment review of the bill by a select committee, is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002210d877cd0c0e4a74b7fe4aac1e8217b8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 117\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000098\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002250b130cbe04a4a509d93559b59d1eedb\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendment to Outer Space and High-altitude Activities (Licences and Permits) Regulations 2017\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9af1b75e8f24993b243d71a4d22ca10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9af1b75e8f24993b243d71a4d22ca10\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 26 and 27, \u201CAmendment to Outer Space and High-altitude Activities (Licences and Permits) Regulations 2017\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022667e89cc67164786aebfce6fd22be0b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022667e89cc67164786aebfce6fd22be0b4\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I just want to point out again that one of the things the Minister said yesterday as part of the first reading was that the consistency report against the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (BORA) will be available on the Ministry of Justice website. I want to, first of all, raise the point that that BORA report is still not available on the Ministry of Justice website\u2014so if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind looking into it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy question is around clause 27, \u201CRegulation 3 amended\u201D. I understand that when we\u2019re looking at the licence and permits, the revocation of the definition of \u201Cprotective security arrangements\u201D, as expressed earlier, is due to the introduction of the authorisation regime, particularly when we\u2019re looking at the activities under permits and licences, which are replaced by the definition of \u201Cprotective security arrangements\u201D being inserted into section 4 of the principal Act by clause 5. That is also a covered activity under \u201CGBSI activity authorisation\u201D, and, again, just going back to the regulatory impact statement, when we\u2019re looking at table 1 on page 8, which covers what the existing regulatory environment and non-regulatory environment is, versus what the authorisation regime will be doing, my question to the Minister is this. By revoking\u2014sorry, just another piece is that we already see there\u2019s still a degree of overlap between, for example, the new authorisation regime and other legislative environments, such as the Overseas Investment Act, around collaboration with overseas parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ECan I just check with the Minister as a reassurance that the revocation of the protective security arrangements in the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities (Licences and Permits) Regulations isn\u2019t going to create a gap in the regulatory environment that the authorisation regime doesn\u2019t cover. Is there any possibility that we have inadvertently created a separate gap?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00221af14a2060a74b2386ab97db0a4cf103\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221af14a2060a74b2386ab97db0a4cf103\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a very simple question for the Associate Minister of Defence because, as he will be aware, Part 2 of this bill is very, very short. What clause 27 does is amend an interpretation in the regulations, and\u2014just to make sure we\u2019re all talking about the same thing\u2014that regulation has a definition of \u201Cprotective security arrangements\u201D. It seems that the definition in the regulation is very, very similar to the new definition that is coming in through this amendment bill and the only difference is that it now refers to an authorisation. So my question is: am I right\u2014is the point of this clause in Part 2 simply to delete the secondary instrument\u2019s definition because it\u2019s now going to be in the primary instrument? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd55a2e28d5749b5acd7a3736a14c0b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd55a2e28d5749b5acd7a3736a14c0b5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to respond to the question posed by the Hon Rachel Brooking: that\u2019s my understanding\u2014yes\u2014that that\u2019s the intent of what lawyers call a switcheroo, of course, whereby revoking the definition at the same time as creating the new definition within primary legislation will be so as not to create a gap. So I think we\u2019re on the same page with that, and it\u2019s a fair point, of course, to seek clarification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EA fair point, as well, Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan has raised is around coverage, or the possibility of a gap between this legislation and the Overseas Investment Act. That\u2019s a piece of legislation in which I take a certain degree of interest as the Minister for Land Information, wearing another hat. I\u2019m currently moonlighting for the Minister for Space. Some might unkindly call me a space cadet, but I\u2019m sure that wouldn\u2019t be a phrase everyone else would agree with in any other context. As land information Minister, I\u2019m naturally interested in the operation of the Overseas Investment Act, and it seems to me if the passage of this legislation were to result in any kind of mismatch or undesirable duplicate of coverage or\u2014more importantly\u2014a gap, then that would be a matter that we can and should review. So I\u2019ll take that as a helpful point from the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet, it\u2019s unfortunate if the member doesn\u2019t have access to that by way of it being uploaded to the Ministry of Justice website. This is something I\u2019ve encountered myself before, and it\u2019s not a particularly helpful situation. But, for what it\u2019s worth, I can relate to the member at least that my understanding is that the vet passed, which is to say that there is nothing in this Act that was considered to be inconsistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u00227acfee868b254e4a853a8a9a95b3f225\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227acfee868b254e4a853a8a9a95b3f225\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai. Tuatahi t\u0113nei te mihi atu ki a koe e te Minita. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Madam Speaker. First, I would like to acknowledge you, Minister.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EWho called you a space cadet? How unkind! Anyway\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f87c081a4a194a4385a16ae3aa219165\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e34df8036632426eb6bfabfc5c5018ea\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you called yourself a space cadet? OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ENo doubt there will be continued discussions about the role of kaitiakitanga of space. Hoi an\u014D r\u0101 [However], we are talking about ground-based space infrastructure (GBSI), te whenua, tae noa mai ki te mana whenua [the land, and also the authority over the land]. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge Rocket Lab, obviously, which is a shining star in part of my electorate, in the beautiful Te M\u0101hia, and one of the things as to why they stand out is that they support around 12,000 jobs, which is always a great thing, but we\u2019ve also learnt some excellent lessons from Rocket Lab in terms of working with mana whenua. While neighbours such as Tawapata station happily coexist, throughout the establishment there were concerns around cultural impacts, environmental impacts, access to moana, consultation concerns\u2014you know, some people felt as if the process was rushed\u2014and genuine engagement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ESo, as we look at the Schedule to the bill and at clause 9 in the new Part 2 to be inserted in Schedule 1 of the Act, it says that they \u201Cmust be granted a GBSI activity authorisation for the operation of GBSI for the activity.\u201D, my question to the Associate Minister of Defence is: knowing what we know from the establishment of Rocket Lab, how will M\u0101ori land owners, or mana whenua, be involved throughout the process\u2014not just in consultation about establishment of the GBSIs but the ongoing monitoring of the licences? Indeed, it is any neighbouring landowners, not just mana whenua, because I think that\u2019s a concern for anyone who is a neighbour of such establishments, especially when space is still the final frontier for a lot of people, and so this might just seem a bit out outlandish for the landowners and neighbours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EAlso, there is the consideration of w\u0101hi tapu, or sacred land, and how that\u2019s going to be taken into consideration\u2014if at all\u2014and, as I said, there are environmental concerns. Koir\u0101 aku p\u0101tai m\u014D t\u0113nei w\u0101. [Those are my questions at this time.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002267dbe0007218421d9afe76f67a594fe4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267dbe0007218421d9afe76f67a594fe4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to acknowledge the points made by the member, it\u2019s positive to hear that there\u2019ve been constructive relationships locally with the operation of Rocket Lab, whom she has rightly acknowledged as a significant employer but also a major player in terms of the activity within that part of the world. The engagement with local iwi sounds as though that has been very constructive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBroadening out the conversation in terms of new ground-based space infrastructure, it seems to me that our resource management laws and requirements and regime, more generally, and decision making outside the remit of this legislation will continue to govern that. I take the member\u2019s point that this is important, not only because there is a land-based element, or the ground-based or whenua aspect of what is included within the remit of the bill, but also the cultural aspects and the access to the moana, etc. I just acknowledge those points, but I say that I don\u2019t think that it\u2019s necessary for this legislation to contemplate some sort of new way of understanding what should be approved in the first place or the ongoing interaction, because that\u2019s covered elsewhere within our statutory frameworks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d0df18f7e01643ba9756afdcdc84ca36\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 117\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224785810a3b134c718904d9c36176ac16\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 117\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002252aa4e7885cf4b1da63b6ce581945cf8\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb6aeb9b69bc4a37b3e9bd0ffba43ec0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb6aeb9b69bc4a37b3e9bd0ffba43ec0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the final debate. This is clauses 1 and 2, which is the title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00221448ae41fd1f46b3a8b4e1f6688ba5bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221448ae41fd1f46b3a8b4e1f6688ba5bb\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, this is a very short part, and I have one question on clause 1 and one on clause 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe first one is about the title, which is the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Act. I ask whether the Minister for Space would consider any amendments or changes to put in some brackets there like \u201C(Regulating Ground-based Space Infrastructure)\u201D after \u201CActivities\u201D and before \u201CAmendment\u201D just so that when people are looking for the amendment, they might be able to find it more easily, because it does seem that all of our discussion has been about that ground-based space infrastructure with its quite odd-to-say acronym.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, on the commencement date, my question is around the fact that it comes into force on 29 July 2025\u2014so that is next Tuesday. That late July date\u2014not necessarily Tuesday, 29 July, but late July\u2014has been bandied around by the Minister for some time now as being the time that she wants this legislation to be enacted and enforced. So my question is: why is it that we only saw the legislation yesterday and that it\u2019s being progressed under all stages in urgency when it has been in train and in progress for some time? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe accept that this legislation is needed and we\u2019re supporting it, but it could have been in the House last week and been with the select committee over the weekend and back in the House this week, for instance. We know that there are not a huge number of people in the country who know about ground-based space infrastructure, but there are some, and it would have been useful to get their views on this and to make sure that we were asking the good questions about it. So that is my question about the commencement date, and also about the title. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002221df90a3ce9e4f9c94410dac440b6fb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221df90a3ce9e4f9c94410dac440b6fb4\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I too have a very quick question for the Associate Minister of Defence on clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D, but from a different approach than that of the Hon Rachel Brooking. I agree with the Hon Rachel Brooking that the question that she asked around the commencement date is an important one, particularly in light of the fact that we do see that the consultation with the operators has been done since 2024, and so this is something that\u2019s been in train.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, my question is around the fact that this bill has been brought into the House under urgency\u2014all stages under urgency\u2014with the Government citing that this issue is something that potentially will create security risks and this bill is in our national interest, and yet the commencement date isn\u2019t the day after Royal assent, but, instead, it is next week. I just wanted to check if there\u2019s any potential\u2014like what could happen now that people know about this, because, again, the House didn\u2019t know about this bill until it was placed on the Table during the first reading. There was no heads-up and no way for anyone to know\u2014including the New Zealand public\u2014because of the national security risk, and yet we are now left with five days of people knowing that this is something that\u2019s happening. So what is the potential risk from now until 29 July, and why was the commencement date not the day after Royal assent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00222632f912485449da999c6696a903bccf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222632f912485449da999c6696a903bccf\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. To address the two time-based elements, I take the point made by both members, actually, in terms of the time frame. But it\u2019s probably helpful to note for the record, by way of background, that consultation with existing ground-based space infrastructure holders did take place in the formulation of the policy\u2014and perhaps even in terms of the drafted outcome for that policy\u2014and, likewise, with a couple of experts in this space. So I take Ms Brooking\u2019s point that there are some others in New Zealand, albeit a limited number, who would have expertise to speak in this space, and, no doubt, again, without rehearsing old ground too much in terms of the ongoing nature of review of the operation and effectiveness of the Act, I\u2019m sure that we\u2019ll welcome hearing any well-informed opinions about the extent to which that is working well and as intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for the time frame element that Dr Xu-Nan identified, I suppose that whenever there is a gap between the passage of the law and it becoming effective in the real world, there is a possibility of actions being taken in contemplation. The fact that it\u2019s a relatively short time frame I think mitigates as best as possible the risk that particular activities ramp up in the meantime, but, of course, that\u2019s at the same time an argument against having a long lead time for the legislation to be coming into effect. We don\u2019t want people to take contemplation of this in a way that takes advantage of a gap that\u2019s now, arguably, highlighted by the fact that we\u2019re now discussing and identifying potential vulnerability in our arrangements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFinally, as to the name of the bill, I suppose one can always be more explicit about the contents of a bill within its title. The length of it already is considerable and, hopefully, it will be reasonably obvious to those reading the bill, and for anyone who\u2019s minded to be even more diligent and read the Hansard of this discussion\u2014they\u2019ll get a pretty good idea, I think, of what\u2019s in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e520ddd8bd9a40a4a1cbb98ec48cc380\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e520ddd8bd9a40a4a1cbb98ec48cc380\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a quick question around\u2014and I was listening carefully to the Associate Minister of Defence\u2014those time frames. We had that consultation process with around 21 of the entities that are ground-based space infrastructure (GBSI), and now we\u2019re at this particular point here. Just for clarification for the committee: did something happen between awareness from those discussions with these different entities, and is that why we are in this situation of moving through urgency? I think that will help to alleviate some of the questions that we\u2019re having around the committee in terms of that gap between that consultation process that happened, and the fact that we are moving through urgency at this particular time and are looking at 29 July as the commencement date. So a quick question there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that I support what the Hon Rachel Brooking was saying around making it easier for people to be able to find this amendment. You might want to not use the entire sentence, because I get what you\u2019re saying\u2014it\u2019s a paragraph, and we don\u2019t want that. But you could have \u201CGBSI\u201D, or whatever it is as the acronym, to make it easier to find things. That\u2019s just a helpful suggestion for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022abd6d1ec2c704c49a6a85a173dc322fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abd6d1ec2c704c49a6a85a173dc322fc\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to the Associate Minister of Defence for answering my questions before. I just want to put it to the Minister: does he agree that there is a difference between consultation on policy versus the drafting of the full and final bill\u2014do words matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00228a21ecae008d4d97a5d59fea7a66b8fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a21ecae008d4d97a5d59fea7a66b8fd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to confirm for the committee of the whole House that words do matter. As for the period of time between the consultation taking place, the substance of the consultation, and the time frame of the effectiveness of the legislation, there\u2019s no particular insight I have in terms of what was consulted upon that led to that time frame being specified as 29 July 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u00228a77a5dcc47a448fb9cfd14514a3b246\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a77a5dcc47a448fb9cfd14514a3b246\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227ad802d1e42d46eb87fe86cc1a901d8d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227bb79c9c0e9046a1bfbf080d4a9a0597\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 117\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000135\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000136\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000137\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002214a55dacf82849e7bf6c1494b312c00d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214a55dacf82849e7bf6c1494b312c00d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228e7e0d00ee644193974cb802b7b23561\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e7e0d00ee644193974cb802b7b23561\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002239ac35e349a74f64af5b74aea8a444cf\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022d598b2a2ab854a669a6789337cc5e020\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d598b2a2ab854a669a6789337cc5e020\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Space: I move, That the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThank you to all members for their contributions during the first and second readings and also for the thoughtful debate that we\u2019ve just experienced during the committee of the whole House stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThis bill represents a significant step forward in strengthening New Zealand\u2019s space regulatory framework. As our space sector continues to grow, so too does the need to ensure that the ground-based infrastructure, such as satellite tracking systems and telemetry systems, are subject to appropriate oversight and standards. Ground-based space infrastructure plays a vital role in supporting satellite operations and space activities, but without regulation it can pose risks to national security and other national interests. This bill ensures the operators of such infrastructure are authorised, accountable, and operating in a way that protects New Zealand\u2019s interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been done because it is needed, quite simply. During the past five years, there have been several deceptive efforts to establish and/or use ground-based infrastructure in New Zealand to harm our national security by foreign actors. They\u2019ve deliberately disguised their affiliation to foreign militaries and misrepresented their intentions. To date, these risks have been managed through non-regulatory measures, including relying on the goodwill of ground-based space infrastructure operators. These measures are no longer enough. Passing this bill establishes an authorisation regime for ground-based space infrastructure, backed by enforcement powers to safeguard the national interest. It also provides for a transition period, allowing operators to meet the new requirements, while ensuring that the responsible Minister, being our colleague and friend the Hon Judith Collins the Minister for Space, can act immediately if risks arise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe bill will therefore help maintain New Zealand\u2019s reputation as a trusted and capable spacefaring nation, one that takes its responsibility seriously and is prepared to manage the risks and opportunities of space activity here on Earth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank the teams at the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment and the Parliamentary Counsel Office for their work in supporting the passage of the bill. I also acknowledge the contribution of stakeholders, who helped to shape the policy and ensure that the regime is practical and effective. Thanks to the MPs across the House who have supported the bill and, again, to those who engaged thoughtfully in the debate of the committee of the whole House. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5d26a95bb824c818a4dccfc74923c18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5d26a95bb824c818a4dccfc74923c18\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002257fe0b79280541008437a07d017594c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257fe0b79280541008437a07d017594c5\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. As the Associate Minister of Defence just noted, this is a bill that Labour has been supporting because we do agree that space activity should always be in the national interest and that it\u2019s an important part of our economy. I guess a lot of people will think about space and the first thing you think of is the rockets launching off and then you might think about what it is that they are taking into space. But we don\u2019t probably spend as much time talking about this ground-based space infrastructure that does the tracking of those satellites that are deployed in space by the launch that is regulated when it comes from New Zealand. So now this ground-based space infrastructure will also be regulated, and that is a sensible thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI do want to briefly comment on an amendment that I put up during the committee stage that was ruled out of order, and that was about a post-enactment review. It doesn\u2019t matter as to the form of it. It is the general idea that whilst Labour accepts that there is a need for urgency in this case, and to go through all-stages urgency because of what is best for our national interest and our security interests\u2014we accept that\u2014we can have both things, though. We can have both something going through urgency and getting the benefit of the national security that it will bring by it being passed and commencing next week, on 25 July; but we can also spend a bit more time on the bill with a post-enactment review. The Government had an opportunity to not use all-stages urgency in a cynical, negative way\u2014which I say this Government often does. They had the opportunity to say, \u201CWe\u2019re actually using urgency for a good reason this time, but we do acknowledge that it is not a great way to make laws. And so to fix that not great lawmaking aspect of it, we will have a post-enactment review.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut the Government has chosen not to do that. I implore them, anybody who\u2019s listening, that there is still an opportunity to put this to a select committee, in some form or other, to make sure that it does have the proper scrutiny. We heard from the Minister, and we saw in the regulatory impact statement (RIS), which we only saw once the all-stages debate on this bill started, that some groups of people have been consulted, and they were consulted on the policy, and the Minister in the chair just before alluded to the fact that some of them might have seen some drafting as well. It is unlikely, and I do not know, but I am assuming that they have not seen the full bill as drafted for comment before they saw it as it was introduced last night. That is a shame, because words matter and we don\u2019t want to get them wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI still didn\u2019t have a clear answer from the Minister in the chair about the relationship of the people who own the site and own the land to other operators that might be coming in and contracting with them. I understand that it looks to be that when the land holder\u2014the person who has the ground space\u2014is applying for their authorisation, they have to demonstrate that they have done the correct due diligence for national security for anybody who might be using some of their equipment from time to time. I think what happens, then, is that if the operator of that equipment is largely offshore or a different entity, that different entity will have to get their own authorisation as well. But, again, this is something that could have been worked through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, the National Party backbench MPs kept jumping up to call for a closure motion in the committee stage. That is very disappointing when this is all-stages urgency and we we\u2019re trying to make sure that we all understood this bill. So I say to them, shame on them. That just really shows a terrible understanding of how unusual it has been in previous parliaments to do all-stages urgency of a bill. But, of course, this is a term\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234bd9ef4dc65443b87a9aae458d2978a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All right. That\u2019s a barrage, not an interjection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c15d2efd7c94af18a1cb7c0df5ef062\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Fake news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273700ffa04974b81a42e0e41fd652916\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m hearing it\u2019s fake news. I\u2019ve got a lot of statistics on this and all-stages urgency has been used by this Government time and time again, and this is the one time that I\u2019ve come across where it makes some sense, and we are agreeing to the all-stages urgency. Yet members opposite still jump up and try and close down these very civil, thoughtful debates. What does that say about their attitude to lawmaking? It is just arrogant. That is all it is: arrogant and not wanting good lawmaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dce5ee9ce1654bad97fcc0b3bc70d8a3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Where was that view in the last Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e26cdb7afed4b57a3438bc65536a73a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m asked now, when was that view in the last Government? Well, the last Government didn\u2019t do all of this all-stages urgency. I can provide the member those numbers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240fcbd2becba4b25ae739f85803bda5b\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fad38eea6354c608c5a3fda14064b77\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think we can have this debate\u2014oh, sorry. We have a point of order from Tim van de Molen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220703187a2d21466590771e92b3b46312\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe220ed16205495fa6215f00d8443ed9\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was halfway through making a statement, so if it\u2019s relevant to this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4894c7d16ac414aad1f919aaf2f2fe7\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I was just pointing out that that was a factually incorrect statement and I suggest the member might want to withdraw it from the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272a27165304d4a318ce40f5ac52ee972\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, I think the member\u2019s stated a view; she hasn\u2019t put any numbers on it. She\u2019s just made the observation that the closure motions have been called, and she\u2019s expressed a view. She hasn\u2019t made any statements about the frequency in the number form. But what I was about to say is that this is away from the actual bill itself, the debate that was going on across the House. So we\u2019ll give the member a chance to finish her third reading speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2213e85805f406f9137bdc7b423e68c\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My point remains, and I\u2019m happy to give information to the members across the House, that there is a lot of legislation that has come through this Parliament in all-stages urgency, and it does not lead to good lawmaking, and they should take that seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223db46bb466924c77889a4455e0c22fc3\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Just like the last Government did\u2014or didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a16ffbab57d4109bdcc8a965785860b\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: No, very much unlike the last Government, Mr Mooney.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278db5a7449d840ae84fc37339c40e83e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, we\u2019re not having that debate. The member\u2019s made a point; now we\u2019ll come back to the third reading. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222390ca896d044fefb5ccc4ab60acd189\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Very different\u2014sorry. I\u2019ve noted some of the issues that I don\u2019t think were well traversed in the committee stage, and that is a shame. But I\u2019ve also noted that the space industry is important to New Zealand, as is our national security. So that is why Labour has been in support of this bill, if any of the members opposite had been listening. I will end my contribution there. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f482002a81be4ab5bb31dccaaf5a168a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f482002a81be4ab5bb31dccaaf5a168a\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Greens on this third reading of the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill. For those just tuning in today, this is a piece of legislation that establishes a regime for ground-based space infrastructure (GBSI) and imposes an authorisation regime on persons who operate GBSI, which is what we\u2019re calling it these days, to carry out activities. The activities include telemetry, tracking, and control, including activities that could disrupt satellite operations of space objects; space surveillance and identification of space objects; satellite data reception; and other activities of concern if prescribed in regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThis bill is passing through all stages under urgency, and we began talking about this last night. We had an interesting discussion with the Minister in the committee of the whole House, and what the Minister told us and what we have accepted is that the bill has been introduced in response to the assessment by the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service of the security threat environment that found that New Zealand organisations had been approached by entities seeking to develop space infrastructure. These entities claim the infrastructure would be used for civilian research purposes but it was subsequently found that the proposed activities could have assisted foreign military activity with potential risks to New Zealand\u2019s interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThat assessment also said, and I quote, \u201CThe full capabilities and some of the affiliations of these entities were deliberately hidden. If these projects had gone ahead we would have inadvertently allowed another country to install equipment in New Zealand for plausible military or intelligence functions. To have done so would have risked New Zealand\u2019s sovereignty. By hiding their affiliations, the foreign entities undermine New Zealand\u2019s ability to make informed decisions based on our national security and national interest.\u201D So there\u2019s an obvious gap there and the Greens support that\u2014if you\u2019re going to build something in someone\u2019s backyard, it\u2019s important that we have eyes over that. There was a regulatory gap, so making sure there were some regulations in place is incredibly important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThere were also some very good questions posed. For example, I know a number of people will want to know when this threat became known. As through our discussions and the departmental disclosure statement, we did find out that there had been discussions with 21 GBSI operators, and that began in 2024. So there have been ongoing discussions, and 21 is not a small number. That\u2019s a few people that are doing this. I\u2019m guessing that through those discussions something emerged, which, of course, is why we find ourselves in urgency at this particular time. So I accept that premise from that side of the Chamber while we\u2019re here in urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI do support what was said, I think, very well, by the Hon Rachel Brooking about having a post-enactment review of some kind. The issue is that when we go through urgency like this, we do want to make sure that all the nuts and bolts are holding the wheels to the wagon, so that we can have the best, most robust legislation that we can. And that\u2019s whether you support the legislation or don\u2019t support the legislation\u2014if we put something into the legislative system, we want it to be the best it can be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EWe also had some really interesting discussion around the authorisation regime. There were four options, and we heard the various reasons why this particular regime was the one that was picked. I guess there were some interesting discussions there and some questions that I continue to have around exactly happens\u2014because we\u2019re in a very fast-moving world where somebody might be a GBSI operator and that\u2019s what they\u2019re doing, and then they onsell to another group, and then that group onsells to another group. What are the actual parts in place to ensure that there is proper oversight over that? Also, if there are nefarious foreign actors, if I can put it that way, who are influencing some of these GBSI operators, we need to make sure there is oversight over that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThere was also, I think\u2014and this is where I have some unease on this; an unease that is out of the scope of this amendment bill but it is definitely connected to it, and I think the Hon Phil Twyford mentioned this a number of times around the national interest element of it. Of course we don\u2019t want people building stuff in New Zealand which is against the national interest and could be harmful to Aotearoa. So making sure we have a regime that is in place to deal with that is important. But it gets difficult when we have different interpretations of what the national interest is. In the regulatory impact statement, it talks about how we need to be careful of foreign actors that do not share New Zealand\u2019s values. Well, the question I have is: what are New Zealand values? Those things develop over time and they evolve, and we do, I think, as parliamentarians, want those values to be the best kind of values. Many of us often make the point that we\u2019re in the Pacific. We are a Pacific nation and part of a family of Pacific nations, so making sure we do everything we can do to take care of our neighbourhood is an important thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EOutside of the Pacific, things are changing incredibly rapidly. We had a ministerial statement yesterday about the situation in Gaza, and a number of countries that would typically align themselves with the US have spoken out on what\u2019s happening in Israel. Does that show that our New Zealand values are changing? Are they developing? I hope so. I think evolving values in a way that puts people at the heart of them is incredibly important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThere was an argument around having more specificity in terms of what the national interest is. There is part of that in this amendment bill\u2014I think there are three or four aspects. But the argument was made that you could be more specific. So, for example, with the launching of payloads, you can\u2019t launch things that would contravene our nuclear-free legislation. That makes sense. You can\u2019t do other things that would cause environmental impact on other satellites in outer space. That also makes sense. I think you can be prescriptive, but I also think we need to have some space to allow for our values to develop in a good way. That\u2019s a good thing as well. So that, although outside the scope of this amendment bill, is foundational to the entire Act as well. I hope that the Minister takes on board those points of clarification, which I think would make this a stronger piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe other thing that was not answered at all, I felt, was the part around the role of tangata whenua. A few years back, I did go up to M\u0101hia to talk with the wh\u0101nau up there who are unhappy with what Rocket Lab was doing. They said it was one thing, and the next thing you know, other things were happening and it was impacting the wider community. Yes, they might be funding this, that, and the other, but the intention around making sure you take care of the environment and don\u2019t launch military payloads on behalf of foreign actors\u2014the US\u2014is an important point that has been made to me repeatedly when I visited them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe other thing that the Minister also talked about and that we talked about for some time was around the exemptions. The New Zealand Defence Force gets an exemption. My understanding of it is if you\u2019ve got a Waihopai-type situation, that exemption applies, but if you\u2019ve got a M\u0101hia Rocket Lab situation, that falls under the Act. I didn\u2019t get a lot of clarity from the Minister as to whether that distinction was correct or not, so if people on that side of the House could clear that up, that would be really good for people who are watching this at home. On that note, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u002271f624412d1049f0a8e8b30c6bb5bbbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271f624412d1049f0a8e8b30c6bb5bbbe\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of ACT to support this bill. We just had the committee of the whole House before this reading, and it was really good to see that the Minister answered questions that came from various members. I can fully understand, as this bill is going through urgency, members had lots of questions, and those questions were addressed in the committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EIt is totally justified that this bill is going through urgency, given that we know there are risks, and these risks are real risks, because through the ground-based space infrastructure, we know that some entities, while they are using this infrastructure, this technology, for everybody\u2019s benefit\u2014this technology can also be used to strengthen their own space capability while degrading others\u2019 capabilities. That\u2019s the big risk that we have. We cannot let anybody compromise or undermine our national security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThis bill is about ensuring we are protecting our national security, protecting our reputation, because when we talk about national security, it\u2019s not just our country; it\u2019s the entire region as well. It also puts everybody on notice because, from next week, all the authorisations will become a transitional authorisation\u2014so, basically, they will be on notice, and they will have to prove that their activities align with our national interest. It\u2019s a great bill, and I support this bill and commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf9ce48bc6c641b29e496698bcf72635\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf9ce48bc6c641b29e496698bcf72635\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. I\u2019m delighted to rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak in support of this bill in the third reading. Look, it\u2019s very, very clear that space is a rapidly evolving environment, and what we\u2019ve heard in terms of that rapid evolution goes to a need for speed in terms of this legislation. Also, what we\u2019ve heard from the Minister for Space\u2014in fact, both Ministers who\u2019ve supported this bill\u2014is that there have already been malicious operators seeking to take advantage of what is a gap in our legislation as it is at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been great also to hear the stories about, and to see the numbers about, how important the space industry is now to New Zealand, across several parts of our country. We\u2019ve got a fantastic range of entrepreneurs and, typical to New Zealand, we have innovation, and space is no exception. In the five years to 2024, we read that the space sector grew by 53 percent, and at 2024, it was a $2.5 billion contribution to our economy, and that is only going to rise. But that means it\u2019s really, really important that that sector is regarded as trusted and is regarded as reliable, and so this legislation itself, in a sense, also helps not only our national security but also our national economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard comments made about Rocket Lab in particular. Having visited them a few months ago, what I did see in here is the importance that they place both on employment but also on training and development of local people. I thought that was absolutely fantastic to see around the M\u0101hia Peninsula.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThis is an amendment bill. The 2017 Act, which it seeks to amend, is very, very focused on the things that we send into space, the payloads that we send into space. I think what this bill is doing is it\u2019s identified that there is a sizeable gap about the space-related infrastructure which actually sits on the ground and communicates, if you like, with the satellites that are sent into space. Satellites are now an essential part of so much of what we do\u2014whether it\u2019s communications, navigation, weather forecasting, scientific research, being able to watch sport, all of those things. Satellites make a huge difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWhat are some of those things there? We\u2019ve got relaying signals; broadband internet if you\u2019re not on cables; secure financial transactions\u2014that\u2019s very, very important\u2014global positioning system, GPS; real-time tracking of vehicles, deliveries, and all of those sort of things; aviation and maritime safety, surveillance, search and rescue; and environmental monitoring. There are a huge number of things which satellites are part of, but they\u2019re also used for less productive, more malicious, more nefarious, and more aggressive purposes. That\u2019s what this bill is about, trying to make sure we have a means of dealing with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI think that we all now understand that New Zealand is in a strategically important location for space. We are an island in the middle of the Pacific, which means there\u2019s not a lot of other places for you to base this kind of ground-based infrastructure on. Australia\u2019s a long way one way, and South America is a very long way the other way, so we are an important location also in relation to the South Pole. I think we also accept that there are now increasingly malicious operators who would like to disrupt things and would like to launch things from our sovereign soil, and this bill is about making sure that that does not happen. We want to ensure that our national interests are protected, as well as those of our friends and neighbours, and to ensure that we as a nation remain a reliable, trusted partner which upholds the law, and that is also good for the businesses which operate out of New Zealand. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a88a2d03d7dd46b8b04699bc06fa4297\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a88a2d03d7dd46b8b04699bc06fa4297\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022 data-id=\u002218586628583549c08432135b4e8cc100\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218586628583549c08432135b4e8cc100\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. M\u0101ku ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u0101 Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, otir\u0101 te iwi M\u0101ori m\u014D te anga o t\u0113nei pire. N\u014D reira kaua koe e m\u0101harahara m\u014D taku h\u0101te. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Madam Speaker. The statements on behalf of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, indeed the M\u0101ori people regarding the direction of this bill, is up to me. So don\u2019t you worry about my shirt. Greetings to us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EWe do not support the bill, and it\u2019s for a fairly straightforward principle. It\u2019s a principle of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. The bill, not its predecessor nor the amended bill, mentions anything about Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014about the partnership that Te Tiriti o Waitangi created, or the place of M\u0101ori in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EWhilst we might be here talking about space and an emerging field of technology and an emerging economic opportunity, this lesson has been learnt, has been tracked, time and time and time again by this Parliament. We arrive at a new technology and then the Parliament takes the view, \u201COh, M\u0101ori don\u2019t have anything to do with that technology\u2014don\u2019t have anything to do with that.\u201D This was the same thing that happened when the spectrum case came up in the early 2000s\u2014the spectrum case\u2014and the somewhat arrogant view of the Government at the time was that M\u0101ori didn\u2019t have any use or history in the use or utilisation of the spectrum. This would ultimately be disproven, right? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0a18020eb0a45f0af00af2ba827cfb4\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Start a business. Give it a go\u2014have a go at starting a business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fcfa116d5434708992d194dfc6395e4\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: This would be disproven. So here we are again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef0f6d9b83be4c7dab1028ed361b006e\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Encourage people to start a business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f2b47aa0a6c4d029cfe6bb030178c14\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go. Here we go. We\u2019ve got the 1840 guy over here. What were the ancestors of the Brits doing in 1840? Not a lot in space. The principle is the same. The principle is the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fff04e4803e424ab4ae58c727f0a3f7\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: Who developed the technology?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223abcfa6ab07741efb950d81772c22d8e\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: I hear the supporters of the myth of technology idea over here on my left\u2014astounding, astounding. A new resource is available, there\u2019s some regulation wanted for it, being proposed for it, and M\u0101ori are being regulated out of it. It\u2019s worth billions of dollars into the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dff122cbdeb345b7b20945f8e4736288\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: Ng\u0101i Tahu are doing very well out of it\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d2cc381fe1042daab797e3c8b408de3\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Ng\u0101i Tahu did very well out of it? We\u2019re sticking to the root facts here. M\u0101ori have a long cosmological history. They have deep knowledge. We\u2019ve been navigating the biggest ocean in the world for 10,000 years using the stars. We\u2019ve managed to name every planet, every constellation. M\u0101ori\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e0cbfadbed24c779c41bb36e6d77575\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: So has everyone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f91ef99b1484d72b05b4a3e0c306ffb\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CSo has everyone else.\u201D\u2014the attitude of this House, when it comes to this type of discussion, is deplorable. It\u2019s deplorable. It\u2019s a joke. It\u2019s an utter joke, the attitude of this Government. The House isn\u2019t built to facilitate the Te Tiriti o Waitangi conversation. I can say that to the Speaker, absolutely 100 percent knowing that: this House isn\u2019t built to facilitate the Te Tiriti o Waitangi conversation. This Government isn\u2019t interested in the Te Tiriti o Waitangi conversation. They keep spewing out stupid views that I\u2019d love to take a little bit more time to rip to bits, but we don\u2019t have it right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EAnyway, a great mentor of mine, an uncle, Moana Jackson, spoke about colonial myths a lot. One of them was the myth of technology, Andy\u2014the myth of technology\u2014and that the colonial settlers and the successive Governments and power structures of this country built colonial myths into our history. One of them is the idea that all M\u0101ori development halted in 1840, and that\u2019s where we should stay. You should go and look up the myth of technology, e hoa m\u0101\u2014go and look it up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8c7073e98304e79ab7599237e177812\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Go look up T\u0101whaki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242853a95f9844599860c2a866a1d4719\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: I know about T\u0101whaki. I know about M\u0101hia-mai-tawhiti. We know about all of those things. I also know about Ihirangaranga. I also know about M\u0101tairangi. I also know about things like Matariki. Everyone knows about Matariki now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295d3a86580064bc48c3d97d4a3b74593\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: At least read the title of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223732b4057bec4b54ad4176395cfcc02c\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: He doesn\u2019t even know about T\u0101whaki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241793ebc8eca4f3fb9e05ae0f2d6215a\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we go, here we go\u2014no decent debate from this side of the House, just slanging stuff. Slanging stuff, eh? [Interruption] I\u2019ll just give it a minute to simmer down. I hope everyone\u2019s listening. Although you can\u2019t hear at home, I hope everyone\u2019s at least getting a feel of the attitude here when I\u2019m raising quite a simple point\u2014a simple principle\u2014and it\u2019s the principle of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. This House has passed laws that protect these rights that M\u0101ori possess. You\u2019ve passed laws, and here you are just riding roughshod straight over the top of them. N\u014D reira, kia kaha koutou. We do not support the bill at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00220c7163e90a7b4a95bf028e58690eac4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c7163e90a7b4a95bf028e58690eac4b\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m not going to raise a point about the member T\u0101kuta Ferris not addressing the bill, but I am going to raise a point of order in regard to wearing a political slogan on the previous speaker\u2019s shirt, which has a logo, as well. If that\u2019s the ruling, I\u2019d just like some clarification\u2014you don\u2019t need to give it to us now\u2014because we could all wear T-shirts in the House with party logos and slogans on them, but I just want to know what that ruling is. So I\u2019ll leave that with you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226b4e6cbdcec24809885464c702d6b825\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b4e6cbdcec24809885464c702d6b825\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t see a party logo from here, but I can see that the member has a T-shirt with something on it. But it\u2019s not visible from the Chair, and I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s visible on the TV screens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292a81fa2934f449d8c2dfdfbf7706402\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad681452cb4d4ff3ae7d7036df6d0bb5\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wishes to speak to the point of order, I\u2019m happy to take that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022 data-id=\u002278f53f1b181e4f15982e2fd2fa91aed1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278f53f1b181e4f15982e2fd2fa91aed1\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori \u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, speaking to the point of order, I\u2019m not sure who the sovereign party is, but I do know that the Deputy Prime Minister has been pulled up in this House about three or four times for wearing his ACT pin. So if you want to come and clear that up, you\u2019re welcome to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ceff8ba49aa408f9fd631ba23854236\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002219f4346dcfef4c3b95ebac422274f842\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219f4346dcfef4c3b95ebac422274f842\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, as long as it\u2019s constructive, I\u2019m happy to follow up. But there is no visible party branding on the member who was just speaking that I can see from here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdbb0b987ca04facbdcdbbe084a46401\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdbb0b987ca04facbdcdbbe084a46401\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Sure. The member is using a tactic that\u2019s well-known in bullying circles, which is to raise a different issue when there\u2019s an issue on the table, and\u2014[Interruption] Points of order are heard in silence, and I think\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f956527e4b5243c6849775c42df0190f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, look, I\u2019ll tell you, the member has been attempting to make a speech and has had a lot of barrage and interjection from the Government\u2019s side of the House, which\u2014I think it\u2019s been coming from both sides, and I\u2019m not prepared to accept that that particular member has been directing what he\u2019s been saying at this, other than to react to interjections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c09c6e4473064376b31ba1c12a10722a\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and a related point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee946ff324bd47b9894ba000fad021ed\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2674edabefd4b6196287ba6dca72ec0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment, we\u2019ve got a member on his feet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d66ee1a1b3d45f082e8129c50ba454f\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: As the Deputy Speaker has acknowledged, it\u2019s hard to read what is written on the shirt of the member. The member did actually just refer to what was written on the shirt, so it would behove the House to look at Standing Order 119 in regard to what the member has just said, as to whether that is an affront to that Standing Order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c622727507d4455eb7b6982235f34efd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c622727507d4455eb7b6982235f34efd\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll follow that one up. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022 data-id=\u00224754c115525a41af9037afb6f6e04fcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224754c115525a41af9037afb6f6e04fcf\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order, with regard to the first part of the member\u2019s point of order, deeming the relevance of Te Tiriti o Waitangi to a debate in this House as some sort of act of bullying and not being relevant to this bill is one of the stupidest things I\u2019ve heard to date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221b0a56460f944eed9283a72a9906bb19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b0a56460f944eed9283a72a9906bb19\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, that actually wasn\u2019t a point of order. I\u2019m going to shut this down now. I accept that there has been some to and fro going from both sides and, as I say, when the member was actually making his speech, there were a lot of interjections coming at him, which made it hard to speak. I\u2019m closing down the points of order now. I can\u2019t see what\u2019s on the member\u2019s T-shirt and I\u2019m accepting that I cannot see any political logo, and we\u2019re going to move on. Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b1ee17c46914966b57346cf50dffa2d\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ec3f549db254e2aa76d5b2819663907\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019ve ruled\u2014I\u2019ve ruled and I\u2019m moving on, and I\u2019ve called Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan to make his participation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022c958060bdcfd4ff8ae419f39c45cbc9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c958060bdcfd4ff8ae419f39c45cbc9b\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Who knew that this bill, which was introduced under urgency, could be so contentious? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI rise on behalf of the Green Party to speak on the third reading of this bill. I want to start by pointing out that the Green Party does support this bill from the perspective that it does address a gap within the current regulatory and non-regulatory environment\u2014that would be beneficial from the perspective of our security, but also from a so-called national interest perspective. So it is important in that regard. I just want to point out a few things that we have discussed during the committee stage. It doesn\u2019t mean that there aren\u2019t concerns that we have regarding this bill and particularly around the regulatory-making power of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFirstly, regarding the urgency that we see for this bill, we did ask the Minister that if there was consultation on this bill\u2014and since 2024 they have consulted with 21 operators, according to the departmental disclosure statement\u2014why was this bill introduced under urgency? There is the idea that, yes, there\u2019s a security risk, but then we also pressed to ask why, if they had the time to consult with 21 operators since 2024, there were no M\u0101ori hap\u016B iwi collectives consulted as a requirement of this bill. That was not fully clear as a part of that committee stage. So that\u2019s the first thing that we wanted to address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe other thing that we\u2019re asking about in the context of GBSI or ground-based space infrastructure is that this does give the Minister a lot of powers in terms of approving those authorisations. One of the clearest things, and this is from the perspective of regulatory-making power and also from the Regulations Review Committee, is it will cause some nervousness. And then there\u2019s the fact that the Minister, in the end, despite the fact that they talk about flexibility and all of that, did not take on the departmental recommendation in clause 154 of the regulatory impact statement to put in a review period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, the regulatory impact statement was very clear. They recommended a two-year review period because something like this is very new internationally, and that will also be in line with the principal Act, specifically section 86 of the principal Act, around the review period, which was three years in the principal Act. So there will be things that people are going to be picking up, as a result of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, the third point I want to address is that we do constantly go back to the idea of our national interest, and we do acknowledge Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s strategic geographical location globally as someone who has this relatively rare and quite expansive Southern Hemisphere GBSI coverage. There are two issues with this. Number one: we go back to the issue of the role of Te Tiriti and the role of M\u0101ori within this space, and how that relationship will be rebuilt, will be made stronger despite the lack of consultation. I think that is something we have yet to see the Minister making a commitment on, and we would like to see further work being done in that space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second area is around what is considered \u201Cnational interest\u201D. Now, I want to be very clear. The Green Party has always talked about the need for an independent foreign affairs policy here in Aotearoa New Zealand. We are concerned with the fact that we have seen Five Eyes expanding beyond what is an information-sharing agency to potentially interfering with even something like this around GBSI. Because the bill does say that the Minister may seek advice from the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service (NZSIS) and, as we know, the NZSIS has a singular target and a singular country that they are targeting as a result of this. So in this case, is this national interest or is this Five Eyes interest? I think we need to be very clear on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo, yes, the Green Party does support this bill, but I think there\u2019s a lot more work to be done around this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u00226f7c6d95032e4b30a8f59b9ed2e67153\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f7c6d95032e4b30a8f59b9ed2e67153\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Now, I want to pick up, firstly, on the blatantly untrue statement made by Ms Brooking before, in her contribution, that the previous Government had not used urgency to pass any bills through all stages. That was, verbatim, what she said\u2014incredible. A short Google search shows 24 bills were passed through all stages under the last Government, 17 of those were outside the Budget process, and, indeed, that included changes to the electoral law of this country\u2014a totally unjustified use of urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThis case is a particular case for a particular purpose that has been well traversed for sensitive issues. So I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u002271baf236fe7b4cab87222fc9dd3559b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271baf236fe7b4cab87222fc9dd3559b9\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just want to set the record straight, given that the member that just resumed his seat has claimed that the Hon Rachel Brooking said that our Government never passed any legislation under urgency. That\u2019s not what she said; what she said was that we didn\u2019t do it as much as this Government is doing it, and we didn\u2019t do it for reasons that seem completely unjustified for significant bills, as this Government has done repeatedly, time and again. However, she also acknowledged that this bill is not an example of that. So it would pay for the member who made those claims to actually listen in future, and that would go for members opposite who have been unnecessarily nasty during this debate, given that members on this side are actually supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this bill, of course, is to manage national security and other risks to New Zealand\u2019s national interests that are posed specifically by GBSI, or ground-based space infrastructure, and it does that through the enactment of a regulatory regime. We all know from the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service (NZSIS) threat assessments\u2014the most recent one in 2024\u2014that companies that are focused on technology and innovation are particularly vulnerable, and we\u2019re seeing that; we\u2019ve seen that in recent years. They are particularly vulnerable to being used by foreign States to advance their own military and intelligence goals. Often this has happened in instances where we\u2019ve then found out that, initially, those malicious activities or that malicious intent was not actually even realised by companies here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EEntities have approached New Zealand organisations specifically to develop space infrastructure in New Zealand territory. They have claimed that the purpose of that infrastructure was for civilian research, but it was then later found out in each one of those cases that that was not true; that the infrastructure was designed to assist foreign military activity and the affiliations between those foreign entities and the entities that approached New Zealand companies were deliberately hidden. So none of us disputes the need for this legislation, which is to plug the gap in our regulatory frameworks or regulations legislation that we currently have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWe know that the ways in which this was addressed to date has been through non-regulatory measures. We know that space is increasingly contested and competitive, that technologies change rapidly and therefore legislative fixes are required to continue to ensure our national security, and that is why Labour is supporting this bill. However, there were a few concerns that I raised, questions that I asked during the committee of the whole House stage that we\u2019ve had. I will also make the point that this is being considered under all-stages urgency. We accept the Minister for Space\u2019s point that this is being done for national security purposes, and we don\u2019t question that; that is fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EHowever, I want to emphasise the point that my colleagues have made, both the Hon Rachel Brooking and Vanushi Walters, in their contributions at the committee stage, and also the amendment by Rachel Brooking which was for the Government to include a post-enactment review clause. This legislation is being considered through all stages under urgency; we accept that\u2014but there is a mitigating factor given so much detail is in regulations, given that consultation has been minimal. The consultation document was put out to 21 operators that are known to the regulator. However, only two have substantively responded to that consultation. That was on the policy intent of the bill. The actual bill itself, as far as we\u2019re aware, has not been consulted on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESo the suggestion from this side was a review clause so that we can mitigate potential loopholes created by the quick enactment of this bill and also mitigate the lack of consultation on this legislation. It is disappointing that the Minister has chosen not to take that any further and I do want to put that on the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe other point that I raised was the lack of requirement within the legislation, within the amendment bill, for the Minister for Space to consult directly with Ministers relevant to intelligence and security and the security agencies. The Minister has clarified in the committee stage that there is a requirement for the regulator to consult with the security agencies, and I accept that. However, I don\u2019t see it necessarily written into legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EFinally, the point that I made in committee that I felt was not addressed adequately was the fact that this particular option\u2014there were four options laid out\u2014option three, which the Government has decided to proceed with, is what has led to this bill. I get that it\u2019s a balance between the effectiveness of the design and the implementation regime versus it being cost-effective; I take that point. However, I have questioned the lack of resource that has been put in to ensuring the effectiveness of the implementation. The Minister has said it\u2019s basically a movable feast. However, I don\u2019t necessarily think that gives this side of the House a huge amount of comfort that it\u2019s being resourced enough to be effective and protect our national security in that sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThose are the main issues that we have traversed and ultimately, though, on balance, given this is a bill that aims to protect our national security interests, I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u00220f1e24518f2f44f1b2e7e5a16a7b5fa7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f1e24518f2f44f1b2e7e5a16a7b5fa7\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I quote Rachel Brooking: \u201CI\u2019m asked \u2026 when was that \u2026 in the last Government? Well, the last Government didn\u2019t do all of this all-stages urgency.\u201D That is the direct quote. Let\u2019s just get that right\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268c511f7ec9249d496d91f4d827e9aae\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: As it relates to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aab1a1e5cdc743859d6306d6c4d4161a\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what she said, Madam Speaker, and I don\u2019t think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5d011e68cbf46a1acbcbf0feda678e0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m saying to you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229899379facc6455089865ffb1276adee\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this relates to this bill because that was her\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a2cacfd995148e4881e3b216400d58c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I know. It\u2019s been well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8b26be98719480191083a2730ae8540\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014direct quote from this reading on this bill and that is what the debate has centred on. What I would like to centre it on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bf724bc8ea64bf0a79dbf82f948c9be\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Mr Costley, what I\u2019m saying to you is please relate your debate to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283e186bc6b514327859df24cd5c0285a\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Madam Speaker\u2014absolutely. This is a debate on this bill. My debating point is to counter two speakers in a row now, who have stood up and said that that quote was never made. It is in the Hansard. It would be outrageous if we couldn\u2019t reference that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, this bill is actually something that we started out yesterday evening agreeing on, that there is a need here, for our national security, to act. We\u2019ve got a Minister for Space that is acting quickly. We should move on, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u00229524a73197fc4bf597c0476af413b6de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229524a73197fc4bf597c0476af413b6de\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, ka t\u016B atu awau ki te tautoko i t\u0113nei pire m\u0101 te P\u0101ti Reipa, ar\u0101 te pire, Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[Madam Speaker, I stand in support of this bill on behalf of the Labour Party\u2014that is, the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI just want to commend that side of the House for having the wisdom to quote this side of the House\u2014very smart. Hoi an\u014D r\u0101 [However], in the committee stage, I raised a few points that had been reinforced\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022517dfe8c3220467faebfd14de9a64334\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: What did \u201CChippy\u201D say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228af99fbd5a5443e2bc5691f844ae02f2\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: You can just wait and listen, then you can quote me\u2014you can quote me for some words of wisdom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267270c9b37454e1ca20a8ac716e344c9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I assure the member that I am listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6486009fbd2439da24be164211db8fe\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: While we support this bill, some of the things that I raised during the committee stage must remain pertinent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EAt a time when people are telling us that they need jobs, better healthcare, and homes, I know that it can be tempting to support initiatives for their economic development, but we must make sure that this remains about national security, which, in these trying times, is actually at the forefront of a lot of people\u2019s minds who it may not have typically been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EWhile reference to Te Tiriti o Waitangi has been badgered this morning, it actually is very relevant. While I\u2019ve said that we have learnt lessons from the establishment of Rocket Lab, the relationship with Rongomaiwahine, and while, of course, it\u2019s pleasing to hear not only the educational support but the employment support that comes from such projects, we have to make sure that Te Tiriti is honoured and mana whenua are honoured, because while we\u2019re talking about space\u2014and, like I said, that debate will continue about kaitiakitanga and space\u2014we are talking about ground-based science infrastructure. At the end of the day, whenua is for ever and kaitiakitanga is for ever. So these conversations must go beyond consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EIn the committee stage, I also raised the fact that while there was consultation, it felt rushed. Even when consultation is done well, the relationship with landowners, iwi, hap\u016B, and mana whenua must not end with consultation, otherwise it\u2019s mere lip-service and it\u2019s a mere tick-box exercise. This relationship must go beyond that to include the monitoring and the review of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EAt the moment, you\u2019ve got to get authorisation from the Minister for Space, and this bill empowers the Minister to assess whether proposed activities meet the national interest. That\u2019s quite a lot to put on an individual responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ESo, hei whakakopi, like I said, Rocket Lab is doing some great stuff but there are lessons to be learnt there about the involvement of mana whenua, because, like I said, whenua is for ever and kaitiakitanga is for ever, and that relationship needs to be from the start and enduring. So on behalf of the Labour Party, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022c75bed523a874eca8a9b3038c621ae4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c75bed523a874eca8a9b3038c621ae4d\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise in support of the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill in its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003EI\u2019m the MP for Banks Peninsula, where we have T\u0101whaki based. That\u2019s a wonderful partnership between the Crown and two of the local r\u016Bnanga. It\u2019s a real exemplar of how the Crown and M\u0101ori can work together, and given that it is a site of advanced aviation and potential space industry, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u002234d727d62afe48bfa097d5a6c6520571\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234d727d62afe48bfa097d5a6c6520571\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E The concluding remarks, really, in this debate from me are just to observe that this bill is filling a gap in our regulatory framework. I noted earlier in these debates that many other like-minded countries have modernised their regulatory framework to properly keep an eye on, and control the use of, ground-based space infrastructure to protect national sovereignty and to protect their national interests, including other countries who have space programmes, and so it\u2019s right that the regulatory framework that was largely developed from an economic development perspective to support the growth of the New Zealand space programme is improved in this way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ENotwithstanding all of the debate we\u2019ve had over the last 24 hours on this bill, I think it is a no-brainer that we should be supporting it, because it is putting in place a mechanism that will allow this and future Governments to protect New Zealand\u2019s national interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve actually enjoyed the debate, notwithstanding the fact that urgency has meant that it\u2019s been pretty challenging to tease out some of the detail and complexity\u2014collectively, I think\u2014to get our heads around the detail of the bill, but I think it hasn\u2019t been too bad a discussion in spite of that. We remain, on the Labour benches here, disappointed that the Government has not supported Rachel Brooking\u2019s tabled amendment that would have added a post-enactment review. We think that, on a matter of this importance with some granularity in terms of the processes and the systems in place, it would have been much better. Given that it\u2019s been rushed through under urgency without any select committee scrutiny or expert or public submissions, it would have been a prudent thing to do to legislate that review. This House is very familiar with the defects and the flaws of law that is too rushed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve enjoyed the discussions that we\u2019ve had around the national interest test and national security. I remain of the view that this regulatory framework would benefit from the additional principles that support the application of the national interest test in relation to the launch of payloads from New Zealand. Those principles spell out a much more precise definition of things that would prohibit certain payloads being put up. I think that when we consider the potential threats posed by ground-based space infrastructure, there are some parallels there, and I think that a much more precise definition of the national interest test would be good for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI thought one of the interesting things that came out of the debate, from my perspective, was what I call the Waihopai principle, where, actually, ground-based space infrastructure managed by the GCSB, our signals intelligence agency, over quite a long time in New Zealand was found to have been conducting mass surveillance on New Zealand\u2019s friends and neighbouring countries with little to no public oversight or parliamentary scrutiny. We should learn from that episode in our history. In the modern era when much more advanced technology and much smaller kit is available to a range of private-sector operators, we should be vigilant that ground-based space infrastructure cannot be used for that purpose in New Zealand without proper scrutiny and oversight. My hope is that this legislation will enable this and future Governments to take that responsibility seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EFinally, I remain intrigued by the possibility that some future Government may regard the ground-based space infrastructure of some embassy in New Zealand to be conducting a regulated activity under this law and, therefore, exercise some oversight and control over that. Foreign embassies here, and all around the world, routinely use ground-based space infrastructure for the purposes of intercepting communications and carrying out intelligence-gathering activity and surveillance. That\u2019s no secret, and, in general, Governments tend to turn a blind eye to that sort of activity. But the intent and the substance of this bill really asks us to consider whether or not we would consider that that sort of activity carried out in New Zealand for purposes that may or may not be consistent with our national interest should be properly regulated. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u00229d363aa832474073ac2307db113c587b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d363aa832474073ac2307db113c587b\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am pleased to rise and take this last and final call on the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill. We fully support the bill. We are pleased to see a regulatory framework for ground-based space interests. I\u2019m not the MP for M\u0101hia, but I am a frequent visitor. I am just next door, and my good friend and colleague Katie Nimon is the MP for that area. So on behalf of both of us, I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022281733a200314dc09935ff467e45efe4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Outer Space and High-altitude Activities Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 117\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000280\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb373b3f731048e68f774668d694bc82\u0022\u003EBudapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e61d1319b8994aeaa7e4de4f724b93b0\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022576c0c0c94cb448f8f516ba096b3742f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022576c0c0c94cb448f8f516ba096b3742f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022738e85dfd5e34cb28c9f7579b4b4e545\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1d1af7611154493b20e41b5d3adda78\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThis bill aligns New Zealand\u2019s laws with the requirements of the Council of Europe Convention on Cybercrime, also known as the Budapest Convention. The Budapest Convention is the first binding international treaty on cyber-crime, and it aligns members\u2019 national laws relating to computer-related offences, improves investigative techniques, and streamlines evidence sharing. By acceding to this convention, we join almost 80 countries party to the convention who are committed to working together to tackle cyber-crime. This positions New Zealand to negotiate further agreements creating key infrastructure, and underpins international criminal justice cooperation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, what does this mean for New Zealanders? Why do we care about all this? Well, obviously, the Government has a very clear target to reduce the number of victims of serious crime and to restore law and order more broadly. The broad area of fraud and cyber-crime has been growing significantly over time. The Ministry of Justice public perceptions reporting shows that 78 percent of New Zealanders are worried about this, as they should be. Over the past three months of 2024, for example, the National Cyber Security Centre reported that New Zealanders lost $6.8 million worth to cyber-crime; a 91 percent increase in 12 months\u2014so it\u2019s a big issue; it\u2019s a real concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this legislation is to enable us to be part of this Budapest Convention and to share more information more quickly, deal with evolving threats more quickly, and it helps us to be part of a coordinated international response to the broader issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe bill was reported back to the House from the Justice Committee. I want to thank the committee for their careful consideration of the bill. I want to thank the submitters who took their time to share their views.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EFrom copyright infringements to computer-related fraud, violations of network security to child exploitation material, this bill will help safeguard New Zealanders from cyber-crime. It makes several important amendments. The bill amends the Search and Surveillance Act 2012 to introduce a new tool for law enforcement called a \u201Cpreservation direction\u201D. A preservation direction enables law enforcement agencies to require a person in a company to hold a specific document to preserve it for a specified period, protecting vulnerable evidence, such as digital records, from being deleted or destroyed. So that\u2019s important. We\u2019ve got new disclosure requirements. Further amendments to the Search and Surveillance Act create an offence for everyone affected by a preservation direction to disclose that the direction exists. Where police have a warrant to undertake surveillance, it will be an offence for anyone who assists them to carry out that warrant, to disclose its existence\u2014that\u2019s obviously important for successfully achieving that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, we\u2019re making an amendment to the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act 1992, which governs the assistance we give to other countries in criminal investment investigations. The bill enables police to apply for production orders and surveillance device warrants in response to a request for assistance from a foreign country. That\u2019s how we share our information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, to safeguard human rights, all existing requirements in the Search and Surveillance Act and Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act must be met before a production order or a surveillance device warrant can be issued for mutual assistance purposes. So those are very important protections, by allowing only a mutual assistance order or warrant to be issued by a High Court judge. Collectively, these amendments will enable New Zealand to accede to the Budapest Convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, the Justice Committee recommended some important changes to strengthen the policy of the bill. Two amendments to clause 37: ensuring the judge considers the public interest in both avoiding prejudice to proceedings as well as investigation, and ensuring the seized thing is not sent out of New Zealand before the person concerned has the opportunity to challenge. It also recommended clarifying section 10(1)(b) and (c) of the Telecommunications Interception Capability and Security Act 2013 to not require an internet service provider to obtain traffic data\u2014that is, information identifying the nature of the telecommunication\u2014if the telecommunication is not the internet service provider\u2019s own product. So we welcome those amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, this is an important part of our effort to meaningfully cooperate with other nations in our fight against cyber-crime, and will ensure that our laws protect New Zealanders in the digital age, and will send a strong signal internationally of our commitment to combat cyber-crime while upholding a rules-based international order that protects fundamental human rights. On that basis, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb903d137bc1416cb18c83d38f2eb9e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb903d137bc1416cb18c83d38f2eb9e6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00220403204c26cb4ac286ad225f2e1b534b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220403204c26cb4ac286ad225f2e1b534b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Oh, the Minister\u2019s approaching me across the\u2014no, he\u2019s not. The Labour Party supports this bill. This is a convention which was acceded to, I understand, in the last Labour Government. I do want to point out that these cross-border matters raise some quite difficult questions. When we get to committee stage, I do want to interrogate the Minister on New Zealand\u2019s approach to this, because cyber-crime in particular is borderless, and the whole point of the Budapest Convention is to ensure that the response to cyber-crime is borderless, as well. That means ensuring that telecommunications\u2014which is, in one form or another, pretty much the vehicle for cyber-crime\u2014can essentially be searched and surveilled effectively. But we in New Zealand and in the common law world hold dear privacy and freedom from arbitrary search and seizure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo here in this bill, we need to make sure that the framework on this, around these telecommunications, is robust and consistent both with the Budapest Convention but also with the things that we hold dear. The main innovation or new aspect in this legislation is, as the Minister said, the preservation direction. That is the direction that a telecommunications provider essentially hold and preserve information that might have content; it could be an email or a text message, something of that nature, or it could simply be traffic data\u2014there were telephone calls that went in this direction, or there were encrypted messages between these two parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, again, there needs to be more than just an interest, and I think it\u2019s important to recognise that not all countries have the same robustness in their criminal justice procedure as we do. Equally, not all countries have the kind of scrutiny about what ought to be criminalised as we do. There\u2019s always a risk, particularly when we\u2019re assisting foreign nations, that we are assisting them in doing things that we wouldn\u2019t accept in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe have to be very careful when the authorities here\u2014and the Attorney-General has an important role in this legislation\u2014when those authorities are given, we need to have more than just a weather eye; we need to be vigilant that we are not being unwittingly used to further either political ends or to allow a foreign State to pursue a proceeding against something that might be a crime in a foreign nation, but it certainly isn\u2019t a crime in New Zealand and shouldn\u2019t be something for which criminal sanction follows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s what I mean when I say these cross-border matters raise really significant issues, because we do not want to be essentially assisting foreign States in oppressing others. The Minister mentioned the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act, and if we look at the parties to that, that is to say those foreign States who we are required to assist, that includes the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. We know that some of the things that are criminalised there are very much free speech here. So that\u2019s this kind of thing. We certainly don\u2019t want to be having surveillance orders and preservation directions in respect of messages which are simply political activities in New Zealand, so we need to be very careful about that. I think we also need to make sure that we\u2019re not subjecting people who are innocent parties to inappropriate surveillance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, one of the things that this bill does, because aspects of it are quite technical, is it shows the pathways of communications. People might want to know, for whatever reason, where messages are routed and who has passed those on. So those kind of things need to be examined, as well. The legislation creates a raft of new offences which I think, again, any time an offence is created\u2014they\u2019re generally offences about non-cooperation or destruction of material\u2014we need to make sure that they have the right settings; that a criminal offence shouldn\u2019t exist unless there\u2019s, particularly, an appropriate mens rea element.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EA lot of these offences are organisational offences, because if you\u2019re going to be seeking preservation directions from a telecommunications company, you\u2019ve got to make sure the left hand knows what the right hand\u2019s doing\u2014and if some junior member of the organisation deletes files in a routine way, we\u2019ve got to be cautious about imposing genuine criminal liability for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s a whole lot of stuff in this legislation, but at the same time, the Budapest Convention is a convention which requires New Zealand to essentially take a cooperative attitude. I must say, one of the challenges in cross-border enforcement is timeliness. Whilst the timeliness aspects in the domestic setting in this legislation, you know, I think are pretty much OK, if you look at the length of time that orders can exist in respect of cross-border orders, it seems quite extraordinary. The length of time seems very long, and so information can be held in abeyance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI guess the other thing that I\u2019d point out and try to preface what I intend to raise in the committee stage, is the suggestion that there can be essentially secret seizures\u2014that items can be seized, including communications, and sent to a foreign State, and the person who is affected doesn\u2019t know. Now, \u201Csecret\u201D and \u201Cjustice\u201D are two words that don\u2019t usually go together. So I want to know\u2014I will be wanting to know\u2014exactly what the kind of threshold is for us sending secret evidence to foreign States, especially when we think about some of those foreign States that will be asking for it and their own record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo there is actually a lot in this bill. To the uninitiated, it\u2019s a very dry piece of legislation. But in fact, it touches on freedom from arbitrary search and seizure, it touches on open justice, and it touches on criminal offending. They\u2019re all, actually, pretty important matters. It might not be as kind of headlining as some of the criminal justice material that comes before this House, but it is important. And to be honest, the Minister did make a good point when he said cyber-crime\u2014crime which often is scams; is often depriving people of their hard-earned money\u2014is serious criminal offending and it\u2019s very hard to detect. We need to absolutely be pursuing those crimes, because they cause real harm. For the victims, it can cause extreme financial distress to lose tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars to scams and other cyber-crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAnd of course, hacking\u2014the space bill we\u2019ve just done, essentially underlying that is a hacking issue that, you know, the idea of blackmail by hacking is another massive issue. We need to be on top of that. It\u2019s a massive security risk as well as a commercial risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo yes, we do support this bill, but I do think that, particularly as it\u2019s being heard under urgency, a robust committee process will be important, and I look forward to that shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u002291de4896be7548839a2f46d3b9e60000\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291de4896be7548839a2f46d3b9e60000\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I take this call on behalf of the Green Party to speak to the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill. The Green Party have reviewed this bill carefully and in good faith throughout first reading and select committee stage. At the first reading, we supported it through to select committee, as this is the place where we sought to raise concerns with how this bill is currently drafted. It should be of the utmost importance to all MPs to make sure that our laws that we are creating are fit for purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI want to be clear that the Greens are committed to the underlying kaupapa behind this bill and acknowledge that the implementation of the Budapest Convention was a recommendation of the royal commission of inquiry into those horrific 15 March attacks, where it was clear that our laws and our processes did not protect the people of Aotearoa. We are committed, across this House, to ensuring that those atrocious acts never happen again here in Aotearoa. Here in the submission from the Federation of Islamic Associations of New Zealand (FIANZ) to the royal commission of inquiry into the attack on the Christchurch mosques, I just want to start by showing the 51 names of the people who lost their lives in that attack in my hometown of Christchurch. It is so important that we listen to the people that were most affected by those attacks. We all recognise the responsibility that we as a legislator have in ensuring that our policy settings in Aotearoa are safe and protect all of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThe Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill amends two key pieces of legislation, the Search and Surveillance Act 2012 and the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act 1992, to better equip our collective resistance against cyber-crime, because cyber-crime knows no bounds and no borders. Offenders can be located in one country, their victims in another, while the evidence is stored on a server in a third. The Budapest Convention, which this bill implements, provides a framework that allows countries to work together on criminal investigations. It covers critical cyber-crimes such as the deployment of virus software, fraud, the distribution of child exploitation material, and terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWith that responsibility comes the responsibility to make sure that we are passing the best law possible that seeks to achieve the intent it says it will. At the first reading and throughout the select committee stage, we engaged constructively and worked across the House to raise concerns on some of the specific clauses and sections in this bill. However, as the bill has not subsequently addressed these concerns in its current form, we cannot at the Greens support this bill in good faith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI want to be very clear that if these concerns are addressed in the committee of the whole House stage, which is coming up just after lunch, and our Amendment Papers are agreed to\u2014Amendment Papers that we have created through consultation with our trusted stakeholders like FIANZ\u2014then we will passionately support this bill. We have a responsibility to ensure that Aotearoa is safe for all of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThe Greens remain concerned about the definition of \u201Can offence\u201D, specifically the use of terminology such as \u201Cimproper conduct\u201D, which remains unacceptably broad. This could leave interpretation open as to whether individuals or groups could be operating as part of a foreign power when engaging in non-violent protest or criticism of the state. The language used in this bill leaves open the possibility that an individual engaging in political protest, in solidarity with an international movement, could be swept into the scope of an offence. If we narrow this definition, it will make it much clearer that we will be sticking in line with the laws of Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThis bill does not make the distinction clear, and the Greens are committed to passing legislation that is fit for purpose and achieves the intent of keeping communities safe. Now, while we support the intent of this bill, which was to strengthen international cooperation on cyber-crime and protect victims, there are provisions that, as currently drafted, raise serious concerns and must be improved at the committee of the whole House stage, which I\u2019m looking forward to getting into with my colleagues after the break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESpecific concerns are new section 88A(4), which could allow surveillance of political refugees simply because their country of origin is a treaty partner. This risks undermining human rights obligations\u2014something that we don\u2019t want to do in Aotearoa. Further, new sections like 88B and 88V in Subpart 1 of the bill, and new sections 20A and 43 in Subpart 2 of the bill, lack clear human rights and proportionality safeguards. We can put these safeguards into our legislation, and that is what the committee of the whole House stage is there for. Without these, New Zealand might be required to assist in investigations into conduct that isn\u2019t even a crime here, or cooperate with countries that do not meet basic standards for a fair trial or privacy protections. Furthermore, the Greens remain concerned about the new offences introduced in Part 2 of the bill, particularly new sections 253 and 254. This is work we will continue to push for\u2014and across the House\u2014at the committee of the whole House stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI would also like to take this call to raise my disappointment in the consultation process of this bill. A big failing of this process was not hearing from FIANZ. I spoke with our trusted stakeholder, the Federation of Islamic Associations New Zealand, and their representative Atif, who expressed their concern around the lack of consultation, and they have provided a quote here: \u201CDespite being the community most directly impacted by the March 15 terrorist attacks, the national umbrella body FIANZ was not consulted. The royal commission of inquiry clearly recommended that meaningful consultation with affected communities must be a core part of the Government process. With the release of the New Zealand National Security Strategy, it is essential that such consultation becomes standard practice, ensuring that communities are not only informed but actively involved in shaping the politics that affect them.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESo, on one hand, we are bringing in one of the recommendations of the royal commission of inquiry, but whilst ignoring another one, and we can do better than that. I urge the Government to actively consult with FIANZ moving forward to ensure the best possible outcome for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ETo conclude, the Green Party acknowledges the sobering context which led to the introduction of this legislation. The royal commission of inquiry into the March 15 terrorist attack made it clear that together we must strengthen our collective ability to prevent harm, particularly where online platforms are being used to spread extremist content and incite violence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe must protect our sovereignty and our core values as Kiwis. We need to be careful that we are not upholding laws from other countries that do not even fit with our own laws. While we cannot support this bill in its current form, we are working to put forward constructive amendments to address these concerns. We continue to do so in good faith and in the hope that with the support across the House, this legislation can be strengthened to achieve the outcome we all want: a safer Aotearoa for everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022 data-id=\u00220465b50ea75547c7bd44cc283dab5c76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220465b50ea75547c7bd44cc283dab5c76\u0022\u003ELAURA McCLURE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise in support of the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill, on behalf of the ACT Party. Firstly, I\u2019d just like to acknowledge the previous speaker\u2019s acknowledgment and recognition of the victims of the mosque terrorist attack. Also from Christchurch, I feel that really deeply, as do all the members of Parliament here in New Zealand, and I acknowledge that this was also a recommendation of that report, to ratify or to enact our agreement as part of the Budapest Convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EI was actually in the EU\u2014was it last week? Gosh, I can\u2019t remember\u2014a couple of weeks ago, with my colleague James Meager, who I believe sits on this committee, and I actually had some meetings with our counterparts around a lot of these kind of issues and where we could work together in order to make New Zealand and the world a safer place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EI share some of the same opinions as the Hon Dr Duncan Webb around privacy and around foreign States and how they may manipulate this legislation in order to harm individuals that are New Zealand citizens. I do share those concerns, but I think, on balance, we need to think about some of those countries and what they\u2019re doing in the space of cyber-crime and how that does, in fact, cause foreign interference here in New Zealand. I think that in itself is one of the main reasons why we need to work together with other like-minded countries when it comes to these issues. We need to make sure that our sovereignty and our security is, in fact, protected. Being a tiny island nation at the bottom of the planet in a digital world, we need to make sure that we do have strong links and strong ties with other like-minded countries in order to tackle these really big issues. We don\u2019t want to be left behind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m really keen to hear some of the points hashed out in the committee of the whole House stage because, like I said, the ACT Party does always consider the sovereignty and security of our residents here in New Zealand\u2014our citizens\u2014and we do take that really seriously, but I do commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u00222d40bcfb4f94425e8c005bddf190688a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d40bcfb4f94425e8c005bddf190688a\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It seems a very appropriate time, given the two previous pieces of legislation we\u2019ve considered\u2014this Budapest Convention is our ratification of an international treaty, in effect. That\u2019s, essentially, exactly what we were doing yesterday in ratifying the UAE trade agreement. So we are showing ourselves as a responsible partner\u2014in that case it was a one-to-one; in this case, it\u2019s a multilateral arrangement\u2014as a responsible part of the global community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe other piece of legislation, of course, which we just considered was the one relating to outer space. Why is that relevant? That\u2019s an area which is changing very, very fast. So is the area of cyber-crime, and so this is about us responding to a fast-changing situation, as well. We talked, in those discussions, about being a responsible global citizen. That\u2019s true here, too. What this legislation is all about\u2014what the convention is all about\u2014is encouraging and allowing for a cooperation between what we\u2019ve heard is over 40 nations to combat cyber-crime, which is obviously something which we experience ourselves here directly. I mean, even this Parliament has been under attack in terms of cyber activity, and so we are well aware of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe legislative statement, interestingly, says that it ensures that New Zealand\u2019s legislation fully aligns with the requirements of the Council of Europe Convention on Cybercrime (the Budapest Convention). But it\u2019s interesting that the Justice Committee actually says that there are a number of areas where legislation in New Zealand needs to be tweaked to ensure that we do actually fully comply. So there\u2019s a slight discrepancy there in terms of the language that is being used. It\u2019s all about preservation of documents\u2014so if the document is suspected as being something related to cyber-crime, it requires that preservation, that prevents disclosure of that. So there are some very useful initiatives which are being taken there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI did hear the concern about some of the broad definitions. I guess one of the things that I would say is\u2014and I\u2019m asking questions of the Minister about whether this is the same language that other countries which are signatories to this convention are also using. I note, also, that there are a number of reservations that would not apply to New Zealand: the reservation about the range of offences\u2014so they are more severe offences, more significant offences, rather than relatively minor ones; and the second reservation that would limit New Zealand\u2019s ability to prosecute New Zealanders who commit cyber-crimes outside New Zealand to only those most serious and severe offences, such as terrorism and human trafficking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI look forward to the ongoing discussion about this. But this is about us being a responsible player in the global environment in the area of cyber-crime. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022f97f72a8c7b0434fae84737a18f8d7e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f97f72a8c7b0434fae84737a18f8d7e8\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Madam Speaker, I rise on behalf of the Green Party to speak on the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill. Now, as the previous speaker has already mentioned, this particular legislation does amend two key pieces of legislation: the Search and Surveillance Act 2012 and the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act 1992. Also, there are different elements of the Crimes Act in there, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThis is something that is addressing an issue that we\u2019re currently seeing manifesting in a greater capacity due to the prevalence of online presences, in general, in our daily lives. One of the other things that is also really important, as a result of this legislation, is that it does come on the back of the recommendation from the royal commission of inquiry into the 15 March attack. I want to really acknowledge my colleague Kahurangi Carter who, in her speech, talked about the way that we have supported this in the first reading. It has gone through the select committee in good faith in order to try and get an outcome that both addresses the concerns but also doesn\u2019t diminish the rights of people here in Aotearoa New Zealand. Unfortunately, during the select committee stage, we haven\u2019t really got to that stage, so the Green Party cannot support this bill in its current form in the second reading. But, of course, if the Minister is open to conversations and discussions and amendments in the committee stage, we may revisit our position in the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EJust in terms of the process itself, we have heard from a range of submissions around this particular bill during the select committee stage, but I think it is important to, again, highlight the fact that while this bill was a recommendation of the royal commission of inquiry into the 15 March attack, one of the most affected communities as a result of that attack was not consulted as part of this\u2014we heard that loud and clear from the Federation of the Islamic Associations of New Zealand, FIANZ, in their submission\u2014which is disappointing because it is something that we were hoping would strengthen our domestic legislation and make our people safer. But there are certain parts of this bill that do fall short of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think the other really important thing, as we\u2019re looking at it from a New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (BORA) perspective, is the way that this legislation that provides the ability for people to conduct search and seizure, and also investigation, does touch on a number of New Zealand Bill of Rights Act concerns, specifically things like clauses 14, 15, 17, and 21\u2014anything from freedom of expression, freedom of association, freedom of association in terms of religion and also thoughts and thinking, and also the conditions around unreasonable search and seizure. The reason that this bill touches on a lot of these particular areas and has drawn BORA concerns from the Green Party is the ability for us to investigate or even survey people here in Aotearoa who are captured and who are protected by the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act on the basis that our treaty partners, potentially, would consider these people to be a threat without us, at least from a legislation perspective, going into the detail of whether those requests from our international treaty partners are in line with our domestic value and the value that we hold really close to our hearts in Aotearoa New Zealand\u2014and that\u2019s particularly from the perspective of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, as I have mentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThere are specific concerns that we have seen, and I think the consistency report that we do see against BORA doesn\u2019t quite go far enough to unpack the severity of this. Finally, I want to say that one of the things we\u2019re also going to be looking into a lot more as a result during the committee of the whole House stage is the Amendment Paper that the Minister has also released, which wasn\u2019t seen during the select committee stage. We look forward to that in the committee stage, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00224a072732b42c449d87f96a843f6fb5d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a072732b42c449d87f96a843f6fb5d6\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to rise in support of the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill. To our friend from Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014who has turned up to give a contribution, which is great\u2014I want to clarify for him that this bill fully aligns with the requirements of the Council of Europe Convention on Cybercrime, hence why it is known as the \u201CBudapest Convention\u201D, which is quite useful and quite good to clarify for members across the House. I know others will have substantive contributions on the material involved with this legislation. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00223edc7950a07d4890a795b6ac16714e8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223edc7950a07d4890a795b6ac16714e8e\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for an opportunity to take a call on this bill. The Budapest Convention is designed to update New Zealand\u2019s legal framework to combat cyber-crime more effectively. It paves the way for New Zealand to be able to join the Budapest Convention, and it also enhances our international cooperation in this space. Can I just highlight how important it is, particularly in cyber-crime, to have those international connections when we know that cyber-crime criminals, those operating in this space, specifically work to exploit where there are gaps between countries and to exploit those gaps for their own financial and personal gain. So the more that we can join up and have a network of agreed rules and how we cooperate with each other\u2014it reduces the opportunities for those cyber-criminals to be able to carry out their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis bill introduces new tools to be able to do that work, new tools for law enforcement such as limited data preservation orders\u2014sounds long, but we\u2019ll talk about that later; big fan of limited data preservation orders. This helps to secure digital evidence\u2014really critical to trace who is doing the crime on the internet and, also, how we try and hold those individuals accountable. That is an incredibly difficult thing to do in cyber-crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis also improves the mechanisms for accessing electronic data and cooperating with other countries on cyber-crime investigations. That\u2019s an important note to make. I think it\u2019s important for anyone who\u2019s been a victim of cyber-crime, who understands the different forms it can come in\u2014whether it be phishing scams that we\u2019re all trained here in Parliament not to click on the links; ransomware attacks; identity thefts; financial fraud that\u2019s online; and also hacking into computers\u2014we are all familiar with those and how cyber-crime operates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBut it is interesting that in New Zealand, what I often hear in terms of electorate inquiries is that if someone has been a victim of identity theft or someone has been a victim of cyber-crime, it does appear that the threshold for law enforcement action is a lot higher than it would be if it happened in real life. So if shoplifting\u2014we know that under $500 under National is not investigated by police, but say it\u2019s over $500\u2014is over $500 and you get someone turning up to investigate that crime, whether it\u2019s been shoplifting or a burglary, that threshold for cyber-crime does appear to be quite a bit higher. So when you have someone who\u2019s been a victim of a scam and they may have lost $10,000, they\u2019re often directed to simply go through their bank or go through other channels as opposed to trying to actually have a proper investigation on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt doesn\u2019t seem right that we have different thresholds for the fact that things happen online as opposed to in real life, because what that does is that sends a green light to criminals who operate in this space that if you\u2019re wanting to take people\u2019s money, then you\u2019re less able to be held accountable online than in real life. That is why having these agreements in place but also backing up these agreements with the appropriate resource so we have a specific unit that is able to investigate and hold criminals accountable for cyber-crime, whether they are based in New Zealand or whether we are cooperating with our international counterparts\u2014we want to be able to share that information and hold people accountable, because the tighter the net is around these areas, it reduces the chances of people being scammed and losing their savings, particularly for those who are new to using the internet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI think of people in my parents\u2019 demographic, where they\u2019ve clicked on links and had themselves exposed to ongoing text messages or ongoing scams to try and extract money. It can be really stressful for people who\u2019ve retired, who\u2019ve got their fixed income, who have their retirement savings. They are targeted often through operations such as this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does, in fact, is it amends the Search and Surveillance Act, which was passed back in 2012, and it also amends the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act. The primary change to the Search and Surveillance Act introduces preservation directions in support of domestic criminal investigations and also overseas criminal investigations and proceedings. It establishes an agreed network of cooperation to minimise the opportunities for criminals to use online tools to extract money and to extract threats from people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis bill enables the Commissioner of Police here in New Zealand to issue a preservation direction requiring documents\u2014and that includes computer data, it\u2019s important to note\u2014to be preserved where there are grounds to believe that documents are particularly vulnerable to loss or modification. A preservation direction is an interim measure, and that interim measure ensures that the evidence\u2014in the form of documents\u2014is preserved before a production order is sought requiring those documents to be produced. It\u2019s essentially an evidence-gathering tool that can be used not only to trace who is doing the offending but also to hold them accountable from where they\u2019re operating from. If those actions are taken earlier on, then it shuts down that operative from preying upon more and more individuals, whether they be here in New Zealand or in other countries across the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis bill also requires a person who is subject to a preservation direction or assisting in executing a surveillance device warrant\u2014such as, for example, a telecommunications provider\u2014to keep the existence of the direction or warrant confidential for a period of time to avoid prejudice in a criminal investigation. We know from the select committee process and from hearing some excellent evidence and information provided from telecommunications providers that there were some concerns about how long they would have to hang on to large amounts of data. And so we talked through all of those issues in detail to be able to understand how we can make sure that the telecommunications providers are still able to operate effectively, but, at the same time, they are also doing their bit to enable that data capture to occur when required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAs mentioned, this bill also amends the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act to enable production orders and surveillance device warrants to be applied for in support of international criminal investigations and proceedings. This is about New Zealand doing its part, because we do know that those cyber-criminals are operating in big-scale scams right across the world. So if we are participating alongside other nation States, then that reduces those opportunities for them to take advantage of people and their savings. There are appropriate oversights to ensure that human rights are upheld, and this ensures that the full suite of investigatory tools are available in New Zealand, where appropriate, to be able to support those international criminal investigations and proceedings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ELabour supports this bill because we support the Budapest Convention in order to try and fight cyber-crime. We believe that we have a clear role in taking up our part in a global fight to increase cyber-security capabilities and international cooperation. This bill builds on Labour\u2019s previous efforts to join the Budapest Convention, and it also implements the recommendation from the royal commission of inquiry into the Christchurch terror attack. It also has the benefit of modernising New Zealand\u2019s legal framework to effectively combat cyber-crime, and that is important. It maintains a balance with privacy and human rights protections while also ensuring we increase our cooperation and ability to get on top of cyber-crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe legislation strengthens our law enforcement tools, improves international cooperation, and demonstrates our dedication in Labour to have public safety in the digital age\u2014so incredibly important. By joining the Budapest Convention, we aim to position New Zealand as a responsible global actor in addressing cyber-threats. And we know that this crime area is growing; this is an area where there\u2019s more crime happening. Not only do we need to make sure that we\u2019re signing up and participating, but also in making sure our law enforcement agencies here in New Zealand are adequately resourced so that we can take our part on the world stage to reduce cyber-crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022380279dc20844a14bf0edc439347a322\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022380279dc20844a14bf0edc439347a322\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to speak to the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill. The Budapest Convention is the Council of Europe\u2019s Convention on Cybercrime. With cyber-crime posing a serious and significant threat to the public, and because our international partners are mostly already signed up as parties to the convention, and because we take cyber-crime seriously, we support the bill and the cross-border mutual cooperation to enforcement that it enables. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u00228fc9c0b964014accb7d918ab6a070c8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fc9c0b964014accb7d918ab6a070c8d\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand to take a call on the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill, which Labour continues to support. We signed up to the Budapest Convention, so it\u2019s good to see that this important work continues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EA number of speakers have already discussed the borderless nature of cyber-crime, and that\u2019s what can make it so difficult to detect and to prosecute offenders unless we have an appropriate level of international cooperation. That\u2019s what the Budapest Convention sets out to achieve. When these offences are committed online, you can have an offender in one jurisdiction, the victim in another, and the evidence of the offence being held in a server in a third country or territory. It can be very difficult, with various countries\u2019 legislation, to join all of that together to be able to track down and, ultimately, apprehend and prevent further cyber-crime from happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ECyber-crime can take many forms, and I think it\u2019s worth taking a moment, as we step through this legislation that we all agree on, to look at a particular example of some fairly abhorrent cyber-crime that has happened here in Aotearoa New Zealand, where a Taranaki grandmother has lost close to a quarter of a million dollars to an AI deepfake that featured Prime Minister Christopher Luxon\u2014an online, manipulated video purporting to be a message from the Prime Minister. As a result, this person has lost a quarter of million dollars online into cryptocurrency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe way that this happened was that a video advertisement appeared; the person listened to the message, apparently from the Prime Minister, and started to engage with what they thought was an investment advisor online. Over a series of weeks, $20,000 each time was taken out of term deposits that were, in fact, the victim\u2019s inheritance. A lot of the funds were also earmarked for the victim\u2019s grandchildren. No one can afford to lose a quarter of a million dollars, but this was someone for whom that was essentially their life savings, and, over a series of days, the funds were drained and transferred, converted into cryptocurrency in a foreign account, and then bounced away out of reach of the New Zealand-based victim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EPotentially the worst part of this, because the scammer was able to access this person\u2019s online banking and watch and manipulate her actions\u2014the last words that the scammer ever said on the phone while speaking to the victim was an aside to someone else in the scam centre they were operating from. They simply said, \u201CThis woman has no money.\u201D\u2014\u201CThis woman has no money.\u201D That scammer had literally drained all of the funds out of that victim\u2019s account and only stopped when there wasn\u2019t a single dollar left for them to take. That\u2019s why legislation like this is so important to be able to track down people operating from other territories that do those kinds of attacks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThere was an interesting comment\u2014because the Prime Minister, rightfully, was questioned about this and said that he would never endorse a particular investment, and the best way for people to protect themselves was to be vigilant and aware of risks. To a point, absolutely, that\u2019s true, but, also, legislation like this helps to protect people and helps to provide international cooperation around enforcement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EOn that note from the Prime Minister, that very sage advice where he says the best way for people to protect themselves is to be vigilant and aware of the risks\u2014that comes with any scam. If, for example, 21,000 people are promised that they will be eligible for FamilyBoost and only 153 are actually delivered the funds that were promised, then that, potentially, could fall into a scam, as well, and, in my opinion, should be a risk that all New Zealanders need to be aware of. Whether it\u2019s a deepfake or a shallow fake, a promise that\u2019s not delivered and a promise that\u2019s broken is shameful. But I do commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u002236afa8e1f0174b2c892d39e4a67df6e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236afa8e1f0174b2c892d39e4a67df6e2\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m glad we can all agree that rising cyber-crime is of great concern for New Zealanders. That\u2019s why we\u2019re here in the House today supporting the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill. This legislation improves cross-border investigations and prosecutions related to cyber-crime, all while upholding human rights and, particularly, the right to be free from unequal search and surveillance. It\u2019s all a part of our plan to restore law and order and to restore real consequences for crime. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u00223bb2dc86306a42e29dfa5fe8b9844b18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bb2dc86306a42e29dfa5fe8b9844b18\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise in support of this bill. As the House has gone a little bit quiet, I thought I\u2019d speak about urgency for a little bit, because we are still an urgency\u2014we are still in urgency. I was just wanting to make a brief point and then extend\u2014I was going to say, \u201Cextend a fig leaf\u201D, but no\u2014an olive branch to the other side, because I do think the issue of urgency is an important one for the House to think about when we use it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI did obtain some research from the Parliamentary Library on the hours that the House has been in urgency this term compared to last term. In the 53rd Parliament, the House was in urgency for 15.7 percent of those total hours. For this Parliament, up until 9 May, the House was in urgency for 22.6 percent of the total hours. There absolutely has been an increase in terms of hours, but I also do think, particularly for my National Party colleagues, that it does a disservice to the people of New Zealand when we point fingers at each other, both ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EIn truth, there is a sense that urgency is being used more often than it should be, and there is an opportunity, as the Standing Orders Committee considers the Standing Orders, to think about the parameters under which urgency should be used. You will not find an objection, in terms of my Labour Party colleagues and I, that there are good reasons for using urgency. The question is simply when it should be used and how legislation that has gone through the House under urgency should be reviewed. I did speak earlier about other countries who\u2019ve adopted various measures, including post-legislative scrutiny; including sunset clauses, as well. I do hope that members opposite will take that on board as we head into a period of reviewing the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI do rise in support of this bill. As my colleagues have pointed to across the House, cyber-crime is absolutely an issue for New Zealand, and it\u2019s an increasing issue. The Ministry of Justice\u2019s Crime and Victims Survey 2019 showed that over 320,000 people experienced one or more incidents of fraud or cyber-crime in the 12 months preceding the survey. But as my colleague Ginny Andersen also pointed out, there is an issue in terms of policing this and monitoring it and ensuring that people get a response. I do think this legislation is important, but I also do think we need to think about how we give it effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EInterestingly, this isn\u2019t the only international convention in existence, in relation to cyber-crime. There is the Budapest Convention; there is also a draft UN cyber-crime convention\u2014and I think, in the international space, sometimes there\u2019s confusion between the two. I wanted to briefly just set out the differences between the UN draft convention and the Budapest Convention, because I think it points clearly to why New Zealand is using the Budapest Convention as the model under which we\u2019re developing legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe UN convention, firstly, is broader in scope. It goes far beyond what would be considered cyber-dependent crimes. The UN convention also creates new offences that aren\u2019t in the Budapest Convention, so it\u2019s far broader. It has also expanded jurisdiction, and what was interesting when the UN convention was being negotiated was that there were countries, like Russia and China, who wanted to include what are called \u201Ccontent\u201D offences. This is where you might find freedom of speech significantly limited, and that was absolutely the intention: to reach into quite a different space in terms of monitoring what, potentially, their citizens were saying overseas, as well as others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe UN convention also has fewer human rights safeguards, and that, alongside these extensive criminal definitions, I think, is problematic\u2014and certainly a lack of safeguards in terms of procedural requirements, which members have spoken about today, in terms of the person who is accused. While I do think that the Budapest Convention is a better model for us to develop legislation, we do also still need to be careful that we\u2019re managing the fine balance of preventing global cyber-crime while also protecting the rule of law and, certainly, rights against unlawful search and seizure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI did want to speak to a couple of aspects in this regard. Firstly, in relation to the requirement that requires a person subject to a preservation direction to keep the existence of the order confidential\u2014keeping this confidential from the individual who is accused, if you like\u2014not only do we have the protections and legislation; I think often, in the House, we forget that we also have principles of common law that apply in this case. The duty of candour is essential in our law, and, essentially, it provides that, where there are adversarial proceedings, ordinarily you will have a right of response if you\u2019re accused of something. For obvious reasons, when it comes to a search warrant or it comes to situations like this, you may not want to, for obvious reasons\u2014the information may be destroyed\u2014so you may not be able to provide that information to the individual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe duty of candour, in my view, still applies. You would still have a circumstance where the application for a preservation order would need to consider any potential objections that could be made before it is granted. While I couldn\u2019t find case law precisely on this point, there is case law in terms of search and seizure, or certainly search, where the individual isn\u2019t notified before a search is conducted. The case of Hager v Attorney-General is looked to fairly frequently in this regard. It says that that obligation must be satisfied. You have to look at how the individual might object.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe other issue is, of course, what happens when information is seized and then sent out of the country. This is an issue that the select committee raised, in terms of amending clause 37. The bill now includes a requirement that people affected by search are notified before seized material is sent out of the country. This is, essentially, so they can potentially bring a judicial review claim should they wish to prevent that information going out of the country. Interestingly, this was a point that also came out of case law in the Dotcom v Attorney-General case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe reason this is important is something that my colleague the Hon Dr Duncan Webb pointed to, which is that there is misuse\u2014or there can be; there\u2019s potential to be misuse\u2014in terms of requiring that information is sent overseas. Part of the misuse is due to a lack of dual criminality\u2014if there are criminal offences that exist in a foreign country that simply don\u2019t exist in New Zealand\u2014and, sadly, around the world we\u2019re seeing more of what\u2019s called \u201Ctransnational repression\u201D. This is Governments who are actively looking to target often their own citizens and prevent them from speaking out against human rights violations. Certainly, the likes of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have commented on this very frequently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EWe need to be extremely cautious that we\u2019re not aiding that, in terms of potentially extraditing individuals\u2014or even, without extraditing them, putting them in harm\u2019s way because they have family members in a home country and evidence would be supplied by New Zealand to show that they were a dissident in some way that was considered illegal in their home country. Certainly there are many examples of that happening, even in terms of foreign nationals who are in the US. There were some fairly famous cases in the early 2000s of attempted kidnappings of Iranian nationals who were human rights activists. Now, of course, we haven\u2019t seen that happen here, but what\u2019s interesting is that, before those kidnappings happened, there were other measures that those Governments took to try and stifle their free speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI am supportive of this bill, but I do think it\u2019s a very careful line that we have to walk. It\u2019s a piece of legislation that I do hope we will rigorously examine, in terms of the committee stage, which I look forward to doing. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002217f3412e0a084bed881fb411b6fe74b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217f3412e0a084bed881fb411b6fe74b0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, what I will do is take the National Party call and then I will come to the Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u00220ce51b52bb5d430aa7622d1e1f0e5651\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ce51b52bb5d430aa7622d1e1f0e5651\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise in support of the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill. This is a sensible piece of legislation. We\u2019ve well discussed it throughout the House today; many really excellent points about the requirement to make online activity a lot safer and to tighten things up. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022861294e737444f97a52f0f67b781ef47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022861294e737444f97a52f0f67b781ef47\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E M\u014Drena. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. Exactly like my colleague on the right, I would repeat comments made this morning that unless the House recognises, appreciates, and completely embeds in any of our debates in this House and into legislation Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014unless that occurs in a genuine and real way, we\u2019re screwed. So here we go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EJust to say it is obviously easier to go from a \u201Cno\u201D to a \u201Cyes\u201D. We can\u2019t support this, because it doesn\u2019t quite have enough in it, from our point of view and from our experience, for us to support it going forward. Any international treaty on security must come with firm assurances. This is especially important when our own Government refuses to uphold Te Tiriti o Waitangi, our founding document. So when we discuss cyber-security, our security more broadly, we need to understand it through more than the Western lens or the comfortable and privileged lens. What security means to M\u0101ori may look very different, and it absolutely does. For us as M\u0101ori, security must include direction from Te Tiriti o Waitangi, particularly in the protection of M\u0101ori data sovereignty. And within the context of this bill, security must also protect us from Government overreach that disproportionately harms our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EVery recent history\u2014let me recall it\u2014when security powers are misused: the Government-sanctioned raids on T\u016Bhoe, where false accusations of conspiracy led to a deeply harmful and unjust operation on one of the most recent large-scale examples of this behaviour. That poorly managed Government-sanctioned response costs lives. We cannot afford to open that door to that kind of behaviour again. Yet we need only fast forward to the absolute tragedy of the Christchurch mosque attacks. Where was the security for this community? A deeper look into the prevention failures from Government revealed that resources had been misallocated, driven by bias and prejudice against our Muslim communities. Once again, lives were lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThis bill risks continuing that pattern by expanding surveillance and international data-sharing powers without explicit safeguards for M\u0101ori rights. That speaks directly to the issue of M\u0101ori data sovereignty. Our data and our information should be just that: ours. What this treaty risks is the ability for our people to exercise mana motuhake over our data. This is critical to the success of M\u0101ori self-determination for wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi M\u0101ori businesses. Unlocking economic and social potential is enabled by M\u0101ori data collection and analysis. M\u0101ori must own M\u0101ori data, M\u0101ori future, M\u0101ori mokopuna, M\u0101ori whenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWe do recognise here that there are some upsides to this bill but, like I started off, it\u2019s easier to go from a \u201Cno\u201D to a \u201Cyes\u201D than a \u201Cyes\u201D to a \u201Cno\u201D. We\u2019re still in the \u201Cno\u201D lane. We acknowledge the k\u014Drero that other members of the House have provided, but our role here has been and will always be to advocate for mokopuna M\u0101ori, for wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori. N\u014D reira i runga i t\u0113n\u0101 [And so, on that], just to again remind us that unless the House fully recognises\u2014to my left and to my right\u2014that Te Tiriti o Waitangi is and always for be our founding document. And just to encourage the House: please read some more. That would be really helpful. I think just filling that gap of knowledge, like my colleague on my right said very early in one of his first calls in this House, there\u2019s such a huge gap of knowledge. So I\u2019d encourage you please read some more. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002292db29ea70654d47ad05e3d547785c27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292db29ea70654d47ad05e3d547785c27\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222d5deabc11554d8d877b97dc91bf3c63\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228254275c234c4d63b0a33e40d91b253a\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments relating to investigatory tools\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002236d16230559649e1834952e2bb9c20cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236d16230559649e1834952e2bb9c20cd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill. We come first to the debate on Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 3 to 53, \u201CAmendments relating to investigatory tools\u201D, and Schedules 1 and 2. The question is that Part 1 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002246ccd701093840ff9bea3b690d408651\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246ccd701093840ff9bea3b690d408651\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d just like to preface the remarks, because, obviously, this a pretty technical and detailed bill, and sometimes I think we kind of can fail to see the forest for the trees, or fail to see the water for the stormy seas, as they say\u2014and I do want to first say that, yes, we absolutely support this bill. But I want to note the overarching concerns, which are twofold. One is to identify that this is an exercise of State power against citizens, and we want to make it clear and put on the record exactly where that balance is struck. The second part or theme that my comments and questions will identify is the difficult tension in the New Zealand State in exercising its powers against citizens assisting foreign States, and particularly in assisting\u2014I\u2019m going to be frank about this\u2014repressive foreign States, those foreign States who don\u2019t have the same human rights values as we do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EFrom that, I\u2019m not going to dilly-dally, but I\u2019m going to get straight into it, and a lot of what I\u2019m going to do is simply to invite the Minister to expand and explain to the public, for the record, what it\u2019s all about. At the centre of this, one of the keystones of this legislation is preservation directions. So whilst we\u2019ve already got production orders\u2014that is to say, telecommunication providers can be ordered to go and find and present the particular information\u2014this preliminary step is seen as important to make sure that whilst those production orders are being sorted out, no one goes around hitting the delete button, in short.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe first thing I want to ask about is on page 14 of the bill as reported back, and I\u2019ll just talk about the new sections. New section 79A in clause 18 talks about \u201Cenforcement agency\u201D, and I do think it\u2019s quite important to understand what that means in terms of who has these powers. In terms of the mutual assistance provisions, it appears to be the police, and I\u2019ll be interested in the Minister\u2019s comments on whether an enforcement agency simply means the police and, obviously, things like Crown Law when they\u2019re taking advice and so on, or whether it will extend to other enforcement agencies\u2014like, a classic one would be the Customs Service\u2014or, in fact, whether it could go broader than that, because, certainly, if we were to say that it was prosecuting agencies, there\u2019s a plethora of prosecuting agencies in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s my first question and that\u2019s actually a question of clarification, and then my second question is kind of an invitation to explain, because the very next definition talks about \u201Cpathway information\u201D, because we know telecommunications data can be routed through numerous servers and so on. I\u2019m asking this genuinely because I don\u2019t quite understand it: why is pathway information important in a criminal investigation? I can understand why the sender and recipient information is important, but I\u2019d be curious to understand why we\u2019d need to know that it was routed through\u2014or \u201Crowted\u201D, if you say it that way\u2014this server or that server, and so on and so forth, particularly if we know that the telecommunications provider holds the relevant data, and they\u2019d have the text message, or whatever it might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to just keep cracking on because this is a bill we agree with and I\u2019m not going to hold things up, and so I\u2019m going to squeeze another question in, as well. It\u2019s around new section 79B in clause 18, which is entitled \u201CEnforcement officer may apply for preservation direction\u201D. It\u2019s about the threshold, because it says that the enforcement officer can apply for it if that officer \u201Cis satisfied that conditions in section 79E for making a direction against that person are met.\u201D Whenever you\u2019re exercising search and surveillance powers, it\u2019s all about suspicions and about the reasonableness of those suspicions\u2014you know, reasonable grounds to suspect, reasonable grounds to believe, and those kinds of thresholds. You don\u2019t often see a kind of very subjective test that the enforcement officer \u201Cis satisfied\u201D. So I\u2019ve managed to squeeze in three queries in there, and I will do a bit more later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u002253bd479e542c4325b35b0843733190a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253bd479e542c4325b35b0843733190a5\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just looking here at Part 3 of the legislation, under \u201CSubpart 1\u2014Interpretation\u201D, at new section 88A\u2014and that\u2019s actually on page 28 of the bill as it stands; I want to explore the rationale and ask the Minister to explain the reason for using certain definitions in the clause 88A(4), particularly regarding\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227153b180f1844f06b885987bf86891ce\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Could you just give us that page number again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d696628e7324dc9a123d58d265b8077\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Sure. It\u2019s on page 28\u2014thank you\u2014and it\u2019s section 88A(4) in new Part 3A, under Subpart 1. This definition is regarding offences of \u201Cpolitical character\u201D. I\u2019m wanting to explore that, and I would love the Minister to engage with my question around why the standard political offence safeguard appears to be narrower than in comparable legislation. Is there a reason for that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s really important that when we are looking at bringing in a law that potentially opens us up to laws that don\u2019t belong to New Zealand but that belong to other countries, but through this convention we would have to uphold them because of certain treaties we have with other countries. I think that us, as a country, and the everyday people out there really want to know that we\u2019re not doing anything that goes against our national identity, but would want to ensure that our citizens are not being asked to uphold laws that don\u2019t belong to us and that do not represent who we are as New Zealanders and our country of Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI guess that takes me into the next part. Just in this same section in new Part 3A, can the Minister clarify whether the term \u201Cserious offence\u201D in section 88(1) is subject to any threshold test? We\u2019d really want to make sure that any proportionality or dual criminality under New Zealand law is actually met, so we\u2019re looking at whether that \u201Cserious offence\u201D has been tested against what we in New Zealand deem as a criminal offence in New Zealand. I\u2019m just really going back to that core concern that we have heard from trusted stakeholders like the Federation of Islamic Associations of New Zealand, and I\u2019m asking the Minister if you could please explain whether there are any safeguards in place to ensure that preservation directions are not guaranteed in relation to offences that would not be recognised as criminal in New Zealand. We just really want to make sure that in New Zealand, we are a place where we\u2019re living by our laws, and we\u2019re not importing laws that don\u2019t belong to us and aren\u2019t fit for purpose here in Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EJust one more question on section 88A in new Part 3A, in clause 19: can the Minister explain the basis for new section 88A(4)(b), and how bilateral agreements are assessed to ensure they are consistent with New Zealand\u2019s human rights obligations? We have our New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, which we commonly call BORA, and we have our Auditor-General, who audits and measures the things that we do here as a Government\u2014our Government actions and our legislation\u2014to uphold our laws and our citizens\u2019 human rights, so we just want to make sure that that is being done here, in this law. So I ask if the Minister can explain how the bilateral agreements are assessed to ensure that they are consistent with New Zealand\u2019s human rights obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022c510961808bb469bb94847a31fb18e03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c510961808bb469bb94847a31fb18e03\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E M\u014Drena, Minister. My questions in relation to this bill are centred on M\u0101ori data sovereignty, and you might have picked that up in my speech. I\u2019m keen to just question why the Minister has not considered including provisions that would safeguard our people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori have the right to control their own data\u2014that might be a clue in there. Crown agencies could or should consult with M\u0101ori, including iwi authorities or relevant stakeholders. There should be an establishment of a M\u0101ori advisory panel to monitor how preservation directions and data sharing are used where M\u0101ori and M\u0101ori data are involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThere should also be\u2014if I might mention this before my question, which is coming\u2014a cultural impact statement when sharing evidence internationally that involves M\u0101ori individuals, organisations, iwi authorities, and culturally sensitive information. This will protect against the misuse of M\u0101ori data, particularly in international contexts where tikanga M\u0101ori is not understood. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I\u2019m looking at clause 4, which amends section 3(1) and inserts the definition of \u201Csurveillance power\u201D. This clause updates the definitions in the Act to include new terms like \u201Csurveillance power\u201D and \u201Ctraffic data\u201D, and states the relevant agencies involved in intelligence and enforcement, which is an oxymoron, sometimes, in this country\u2014I\u2019m just saying. Can the Minister confirm why, in clause 4, the definition of \u201Csurveillance power\u201D does not include criteria that would safeguard M\u0101ori from disproportionate levels of surveillance or discrimination, especially in the context of the T\u016Bhoe raids, which happened only a little while ago? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ESpeaking to the same section, Minister, I note there\u2019s no reference to M\u0101ori data considerations in the definition of \u201Ctraffic data\u201D as it has been drawn from section 3AB of the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Act 2013. However, I would question whether the Minister considers inserting provisions here to state and define M\u0101ori data or culturally sensitive data so that it better protects M\u0101ori interests. If he does not agree, I would ask the Minister to explain the reasons for that\u2014this is us trying to get from the \u201Cno\u201D lane to the \u201Cyes\u201D lane, Minister. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u002245ad23c9b61143da886aa0124ace8980\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245ad23c9b61143da886aa0124ace8980\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Like my colleague Dr Duncan Webb, I just have some questions in relation to the restraint of power, because, obviously, these are considerable powers in terms of search and seizure, and, certainly, in terms of the preservation of documents, which to my mind triggers privacy issues. I\u2019m just looking at clauses to see whether they\u2019ve been drawn down or reasonably limited to ensure that we are walking that line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m looking on page 12 at clause 10, which inserts new section 64A. This one is about the destruction of information that is found as part of that surveillance warrant process, and it says that \u201C(2) The person must ensure that, as soon as is reasonably practicable after the warrant expires, that record\u2014(a) is destroyed; or (b) is given to the law enforcement agency\u201D. The first question is around whether there was consideration that that language should be restricted, as it\u2019s very hard to determine what \u201Creasonably practicable\u201D may be in relation to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe second question is in relation to clause 12, which inserts new section 71(2)(i), which says, \u201Cif the documents are sought to be produced on an ongoing basis, the facts relied on to show reasonable grounds to believe that those documents\u2014(i) are in the possession or under the control of the person against whom the order is sought;\u201D. There are two questions. The first is that if this is referring to documents that are produced on an ongoing basis, was there consideration of slicing that up to ask for a production order for each of those documents, as opposed to the set of documents, and the second is about the definition of \u201Cunder the control of the person against whom the order is sought; or (ii) will come into that person\u2019s possession or under their control\u201D? Again, there\u2019s no restriction in terms of timing there, but it stretches out to a document that will at some stage come into their position or under their control. All of that language is extremely broad. I have a question about whether there was consideration of bringing that down, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EIn terms of new Subpart 2A, this is the start of the preservation directions section. I was first wondering about comparability of definitions across borders with countries of like jurisdiction whom we would be communicating with and whether the preservation order provisions are the same\u2014that\u2019s the general question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe specific question is around an issue raised by the Privacy Commissioner, which is the fact that the Commissioner of Police is able to issue those preservation orders, and the Privacy Commissioner considered that to be quite unusual. The proposal from the Privacy Commissioner was that that\u2019s the type of order that ought to require judicial oversight, and, certainly, that would be the more responsible thing to do, given the nature of the power, where someone is having information collected and held about them without knowing that that\u2019s the case. So I\u2019m asking whether there was consideration of just drawing that down and asking how that compares internationally. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u0022138999da660c4901810c97d0e0fce34f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022138999da660c4901810c97d0e0fce34f\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the committee report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00221777dd7be0ca4966a0483b3cb2c496d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221777dd7be0ca4966a0483b3cb2c496d6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection. [Interruption] Could you repeat your contribution?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u0022d22c3cc95eb140c6a73a97a280b68d69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d22c3cc95eb140c6a73a97a280b68d69\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the committee report progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022da2ba62969ed4a488688908ee84607f5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the committee report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000406\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000407\u0022\u003EHouse resumed. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002232cc004e5d854413b99876f38e75d560\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232cc004e5d854413b99876f38e75d560\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill and reports that it has made progress on the bill. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u00228f5c8ec8e7144cd7a8fb53f9a3fa6db9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f5c8ec8e7144cd7a8fb53f9a3fa6db9\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, I\u2019m not sure of the protocol, but I\u2019m informed that the House intends to lift urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d620c3bc867146d8bc85da439095eab5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d620c3bc867146d8bc85da439095eab5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has indicated that urgency will conclude. Therefore, the House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.55 p.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072238548341ce604802b2d9bf66845300b4000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"