"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ff1c6d03c536418ab96c6a9a3d97d71e\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 23 JULY 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d3ebfad154a447e846664b625b93fed\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 23 JULY 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dea91b7f10484661b96a768bdd2c6fac\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f839975ee6474f258af367e77a71bdce\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4cbb5926b674cd3bca0bf6a566b37d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4cbb5926b674cd3bca0bf6a566b37d8\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (Deputy Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f76c2d1c22b4764887db4adac765fa8\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002256208c4bfc5b4906ae76540dc878c0e5\u0022\u003EMembers of the European Parliament\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228e5d8cf3db744a829a7282a3d943409b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e5d8cf3db744a829a7282a3d943409b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019m sure you\u2019ll want to join with me in welcoming to our Parliament members of the European Parliament (MEPs), led by MEP Se\u00E1n Kelly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de73e8e0152d4310b808a6757c3c6939\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a569c072555348e0a5236a65ad93bf79\u0022\u003ENew Speaker\u2019s Ruling\u2014Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002256d798f237214fb0b8e49f9a2d7e89e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256d798f237214fb0b8e49f9a2d7e89e3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, yesterday, the Hon Kieran McAnulty asked me to consider the potential for misrepresentation of parties in replies to oral questions. The particular concern was that Ministers\u2019 answers referring to \u201Cthe other side of the House\u201D might be taken to include all parties not in Government. There are rules and practices that address that possibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe first is Speakers\u2019 ruling 205/5: Ministers shouldn\u2019t bring parties not involved in the question into the answer. Unless the question is a blatant political attack, there is no reason to mention any party at all when answering a question. There is never a reason to bring a party not involved in a question into the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe second Standing Order is 367, which enables members who have been misrepresented in an answer to a question to have their response put on the official record. This remedy is seldom used, and I accept that it is not likely to resolve a situation where the misrepresentation has occurred through the presentation of official parliamentary footage through social media.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThere is, however, Appendix D to the Standing Orders, which provides remedies for using official footage to mislead. I refer members to Part 2 of that Appendix, 6, and 7. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022603f91ca61004477a48197e4e975cbbb\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ec2fbff13c9408d97c1706866d17e60\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220f85baef0820479d8ce7095828695899\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f85baef0820479d8ce7095828695899\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation. Ministers have delivered three papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee567b51bc4d45f892d0d89d1fe6d233\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee567b51bc4d45f892d0d89d1fe6d233\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2025-26 statement of performance expectations for: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECity Rail Link Ltd, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EK\u0101inga Ora, Homes and Communities\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2025-29 statement of intent for K\u0101inga Ora, Homes and Communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbcfe7dbb75247eaae8464281c0e2154\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbcfe7dbb75247eaae8464281c0e2154\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Nine select committee reports have been delivered for presentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2f5323909464e7383a68fb126dd4ffc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2f5323909464e7383a68fb126dd4ffc\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReports of the Education and Workforce Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Tertiary Education, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Charlene Whyte\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Environment Committee on the: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ebriefing from the Climate Change Commission about its recent monitoring and progress activities, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Alva Feldmeier \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Audit\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EFiscal Strategy Report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EBudget Economic and Fiscal Update, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Regulation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Health Committee on the notice of motion to approve the Misuse of Drugs (Classification and Presumption of Supply) Order 2025, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Social Services and Community Committee on the 2025-26 Estimates for Vote Sport and Recreation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae3d1d541368443882348e06343c0f15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae3d1d541368443882348e06343c0f15\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The notice of motion, the Estimates reports, and the briefing report are set down for consideration. No bills have been introduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002221718f81b24b4c9f9fcf7893477d1ce0\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e76466ca6aff4a1aaedf77df5c9abd9e\u0022\u003ECost of Living\u2014Increases\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022042d82e34ff3451b8fc22751a9d38e15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022042d82e34ff3451b8fc22751a9d38e15\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019ve received a letter from the Hon Barbara Edmonds seeking to debate under Standing Order 399 the rising cost of living. In considering this application, I reviewed rulings by Speakers Harrison, Wall, and Mallard\u2014and I quote: \u201CA proposal to discuss a continuing problem \u2026 is not one contemplated by [Standing Order 399] in that it is not of a particular case of recent occurrence nor does it require the immediate attention of the House.\u201D See Speakers\u2019 ruling 221/2. The application is declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022558a0ee0a3b94bbcaa70e953aee311f9\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a1fb9d7460cd493386ad6666a9a17942\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5bfa60969d34b3b9c7aef1211e69ef7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Regulation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u00229b6d5c0aec6041b7ab8e81d7a341c493\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b6d5c0aec6041b7ab8e81d7a341c493\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Regulation: Will New Zealanders benefit from the Ministry for Regulation\u2019s work to remove unnecessary rules and regulations; if so, how?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00220b182a81263e45cf98303137a3fb0380\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b182a81263e45cf98303137a3fb0380\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E The answer is absolutely yes. New Zealanders pride themselves on being the nation of number eight wire and can-do Kiwi attitude and Hillary knocking off Everest. However, it\u2019s hard to keep that national psyche going when New Zealanders too often find themselves bound by pointless and expensive compliance activity. That is why it is so important to have, within Government, a department that champions less red tape and regulation by removing unnecessary rules that currently exist, by vetting new proposals for laws, and upskilling the regulatory workforce right across Government. That is precisely what the Ministry for Regulation does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234621363528d44c8a7279efaab3f7c6a\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Ministry for Regulation\u2019s benefits be quantified?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cd75f75c86d46ec9d6efa1e481ccc0a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Undoubtedly, they can. To give three recent examples: we have got rid of what turned out to be the pointless requirement for councils to go and inspect every hairdresser every year. That saves the average hairdresser around about $500, although often that cost was also being absorbed by the local council. I was thanked by a prominent mayor and former member of this House for that very fact at a recent Local Government New Zealand conference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221d2a7a6c6174cffb2d539945be4b458\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Who was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d031652f2e64410b0d629a302d7c04c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: He was the Mayor of Nelson, who the member well knows. The agricultural and horticultural products review has estimated benefits of $272 million, while we\u2019ve recently secured $90 million of medical conferences thanks to removing pointless restrictions that were preventing those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d7edd5f455e44c2b3237fa64eb48039\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201319069ec434801a1bdbb3b143d69ac\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just hold on. Just wait\u2014just wait. Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d813dc7907045428510e96fdca872fe\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. What should someone facing outdated or unnecessary regulations do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262c063b38cd245978b88687b63795bde\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they should do what over 800 people have already done and go along to the Ministry for Regulation\u2019s red-tape tip line where people who are annoyed by silly rules that tie them up, add costs, and don\u2019t actually achieve anything for anyone in New Zealand can go along and report their problems. The ministry then analyses the rules that they complain about, often finds that they\u2019re unnecessary, and, within Government, ensures that they are got rid of. This is dramatically reducing the amount of annoyance that New Zealanders experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d42ed16385149849f10fc2674dd66db\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: What sectors are benefiting from the Ministry for Regulation\u2019s work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022424bd6197e974b5aaf146dfa44a0aa3e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: As I mentioned, there has been a comprehensive review already of the rules around importing agricultural and horticultural products into this country, and we estimate that the savings from that will be over a quarter of a billion dollars. We\u2019ve looked at hairdressing, which I\u2019ve mentioned. We\u2019re also in the midst of seriously transforming the rules around running an early childhood education centre. That will see the number of regulations fall from 98 down to two-thirds of that number, with most of the rules being severely simplified and the enforcement being made proportional, a move that is already seeing early childhood centres\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223286b24224334a55bc535a0e7a007817\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222132291a97c94c958a5d24f6fd9b037d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank me for the improvements being made. We\u2019re also doing sector reviews in telecommunications\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b871544bd9f340ce8c982f5b2bca3fa3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260cda126e7e542e3b4dfddb105544f76\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and another two to be announced very soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249c255fd244d45af982fa620c3bf623e\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Haumi \u0113, hui \u0113, t\u0101iki \u0113!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E[It coalesces, it assembles, it is bound.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236a6d57489794363a8cc3eb89a852031\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, the member\u2019s already experienced once, in this House, the exit door. Interrupting like that could see it happen again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217a34b3de5c64c72b3eae1481a53bd60\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to repeat the answer, which was clearly enjoyed greatly by the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca83c37ee6e54615965b6e1275bc9995\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, there\u2019s also a Standing Order about trifling with the House and the Chair; that comes extremely close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228788b940f9a6447ea5fb99ae934d49f0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdd44475aa0946f08444bf105c13ca6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdd44475aa0946f08444bf105c13ca6c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022945112bcf99b406daf462bab182e1176\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022945112bcf99b406daf462bab182e1176\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a1f2b15743f4bbab658771c9fed3a3c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Christopher Luxon, \u201CThe first thing that we\u2019ve got to do is we\u2019ve got to reduce the cost of living.\u201D; if so, has the cost of living gone up or down under his leadership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb7840e2aa94da095752a9af1c89618\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019m proud to report to the member is that inflation is down. We inherited a situation where it was running as high as 7.3 percent; today, it sits at 2.7 percent. That\u2019s a function of really good economic management and a Government that understands the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e0aaaf01737451b97b362692ff60f1f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement, \u201CWe are starting our 100-day plan with a laser focus on bringing down the cost of living\u201D; if so, why, after 574 days, is the cost of living even higher and continuing to increase?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e0addfdecb64b09bc7bee0c528ac440\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly what we have been doing. We have been controlling Government spending, getting rid of the wasteful Government spending that was going on, and what\u2019s the consequence? We\u2019ve lowered domestic inflation, lowered inflation, lowered interest rates\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e84b7c1ace744d8bde1e87df6375f67\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Prime Minister, thank you. There\u2019s an unacceptable level of barrage\u2014people just speaking for the sake of it. Interjections should be rare and reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b5e001d1767413abfb9f88775d0f348\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I was explaining to the member, what we have done is we have made sure that we\u2019ve got rid of the wasteful spending. In doing so, that brings domestic inflation down; that has led to interest rates coming down by 2.25 percent. That, of course, has led to growth in the economy\u2014you saw the first-quarter numbers\u2014and, of course, that\u2019s actually going to lead, ultimately, to people getting more work in higher-paying jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc45b015c23f4b39adacdb759335b3d0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by Nicola Willis\u2019 statement, \u201CPrices coming down is exactly what we want to see\u201D; if so, has the price of a typical family grocery shop increased or decreased under his Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc718749087641d8b82541c7879d6272\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I thank the member for his question and his interest in this area, because the great news is that food inflation is down to 4.6 percent from what was 12.5 percent. Just two years ago, actually, the price of eggs was up 67 percent, chicken was up 21 percent, pasta was up 12 percent, frozen veges up 16 percent\u2014all under his Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f845ee19cf8463c93d6469e13c5bc15\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that the most recent Consumers Price Index revealed that 36 percent of the products monitored have come down in price?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a69c47699c4451aa5b80beaa89295a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I can, and the two numbers that I want people to understand is that under the member\u2019s previous Government, food prices were up 12.5 percent; today, they\u2019re up 4.6 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6bec23156fe4d7f887c261ec9ff8a73\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he claim, one year ago tomorrow, that food prices have been falling under his Government and the cost of living was getting under control?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225abb28858ffd4c4f851a98aff7d179f6\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Because they are. They\u2019ve gone from 12.5 percent to 4.6 percent. We\u2019re making good progress on inflation. We\u2019ve got inflation back under 3 percent. We\u2019ve got interest rates falling. I want to just say to the member that I really appreciate his interest, having created the cost of living crisis, in now wanting to help us solve it. I just say the biggest driver of inflation in this last week, as you would have seen, was council rates, and I\u2019d love the member\u2019s support to put a cap on council rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265640f400a6a4fc4908a24589179006f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Is the purchasing power of someone on the minimum wage greater or lesser than it was when he became the Prime Minister, as a result of his Government\u2019s decision to increase the minimum wage by less than inflation for two years in a row?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ea1b6aaf6af4d7cbcc084253a534d60\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I can say to the member is that infinitely New Zealanders are doing better under this Government than they would have done under his Government. Inflation is down from 7.3 percent to 2.7 percent. Interest rates are down 225 basis points, putting $320 a fortnight into an average mortgage holder\u2019s back pocket. They\u2019re the people we care about, and we want to make sure they\u2019ve got money so they can navigate the cost of living crisis. And we\u2019ve got our economy growing, after he put it into recession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b50e03309e02449fa2a9209cfb2569d2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he promise $250 a fortnight to families with kids if he can\u2019t point to a single family that has received it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249b34cd2d728445db73216e011e32872\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I really look forward to that member reversing some positions, because he didn\u2019t support us on tax relief for low and middle income workers, adjusting the tax thresholds; he doesn\u2019t support the FamilyBoost policy; he doesn\u2019t support construction workers, by U-turning on his fast-track repeal\u2014he should give that up immediately. I just say to the member: it\u2019s a tough time for Kiwis; why don\u2019t you get in behind and actually try to reduce the cost of living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243936bee48d44fb8a8fbf5c8db593d3b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why won\u2019t he accept responsibility for his own Government\u2019s actions given that, under his watch, the cost of living continues to go up, unemployment is going up, the number of people living rough on the streets and homeless is going up, and the number of people giving up on his Government and voting with their feet and leaving to Australia is at near-record levels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259d2c9767a01473f98ab7780aa44cecf\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, the member understands that he took the keys to our economy and he put it in a great big ditch. We\u2019re hauling the car out of the ditch, we\u2019re turning it up the right way, we\u2019re getting into first and second gear, and we\u2019ve got a plan. Our plan is working. We\u2019ve got wasteful spending under control, we\u2019ve got inflation down, we\u2019ve got interest rates down, we\u2019ve got growth in the economy\u2014those are good things that support New Zealanders in a cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239395d165d37408aa7bb538884cf31db\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efab0d1e9f32409396e8895dec99c9be\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Think very carefully about the supplementary. The Hon David Seymour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d0f4ab0185f42ee80e31e7b6ffad6de\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Prime Minister at all taken by surprise when he was asked about \u201Ctaking responsibility\u201D by Chris Hipkins, of all people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220981e674c63a4446b71895c672fc5255\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not something he can answer. I did suggest to the member that he think carefully about that question. It wasn\u2019t in order, and I would suggest he doesn\u2019t do it again, because he\u2019ll be straight out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002246d9fef7202246cdbffa64f30d49267d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u002266f45b08f318410ca633eb04bd85f531\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266f45b08f318410ca633eb04bd85f531\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has she seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022114291194af14fd1b117af24f8331fb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022114291194af14fd1b117af24f8331fb0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, Stats NZ released the latest trade figures for June. These reinforce how well New Zealand\u2019s exporters are performing this year. In the three months to June, we exported $21.8 billion worth of goods. This represents an increase of 13 percent over the same period a year ago. Go exporters!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269f6cdc3067c4b69aaf362f4115b4d2a\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: Which exports have been doing well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ba452eac1a648c1897cbcbe388c1282\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand\u2019s biggest goods exports are in the primary sector. Dairy, meat, fruit, and wood together make up over 60 percent of goods exports. These have all been performing strongly. In the three months to June, dairy exports were up 22 percent compared to the same period last year, meat exports were up 14 percent, fruit up 28 percent, and wood up 20 percent. I want to make a special shout-out to kiwifruit, which is now a $4 billion a year export industry; 12 months ago, annual kiwifruit exports were just $2.8 billion, so that is a significant increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c9afa3027564cd69f18237b76c8d6f1\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: What is behind the increase in export value?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b12263d67ce3427f9f87a219581d8561\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the value of New Zealand\u2019s exports is a function of two things: export values, which is about how much we\u2019re producing as a country. I am reliably informed that the Government\u2019s efforts to remove barriers in the way of our exporters are paying dividends\u2014for example, our renewal of the regional seasonal employment scheme has helped support that revival in the kiwifruit industry. It is also a function of the prices that exporters receive, which are largely set in overseas markets. The trade data released yesterday doesn\u2019t do that breakdown, but an earlier Stats NZ release for the March quarter indicates that both export volumes and export prices have been rising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249697abb9c1744409fe48022ca6fd3f7\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: What does the future hold for New Zealand\u2019s exports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022679f41fb3908411ba4cc1edcf49088af\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am hugely optimistic for New Zealand exporters and, therefore, for the New Zealand economy and the prospects of New Zealanders. I have mentioned before in the House that international factors are likely to affect global demand compared to where it would\u2019ve otherwise been. But Treasury forecasts in the Budget show both goods and services exports continuing to grow in the coming years. We make things the world wants to buy, and the Government\u2014this Government\u2014will keep backing hard-working Kiwi exporters. There is no better demonstration of that than the United Arab Emirates free-trade agreement enacted yesterday, so stay tuned for my colleague Todd McClay in question 11.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d0f010c68db44899e252a87cd81c09a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279da8bafe6094c628bcffe69405d7d76\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e6a58fb9efd457280340a9b22bd8e70\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, supplementary. Apologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4aaca23ea07476db9904b5705851991\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re welcome. Does she regret doing a Facebook video waving a block of cheese, complaining it was too expensive, only to see it increase under her watch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227312512c916849db89025fe8613ee560\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: No, not at all, because what I was highlighting at that time was that under the watch of the Government I was critiquing, food price inflation went to double digits\u2014double digits\u2014up over 12 percent. Every week, I recall coming down to this House and saying, \u201CWould you please ease up on the wasteful spending? It\u2019s charging the inflation and Kiwis are paying the price.\u201D And you know what? There was a little election about that. Guess who won! [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d963671b553f4595aa1f79e143309f6e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Does everyone want to go early?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022941d985cb8504f0d9c962d99937bcaa4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Disability Issues\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u002212f25c261430438eab00dcfe85ed58f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212f25c261430438eab00dcfe85ed58f1\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Disability Issues: Does she agree with the findings of the Youth MP Parliamentary Working Group report that disabled people, especially disabled students, are consistently failed by our system; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022215d730e5c084525bf99133cfc4c9086\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022215d730e5c084525bf99133cfc4c9086\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Disability Issues):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I\u2019d like to thank all of the Youth MPs, especially Ryder Miller, who did an outstanding job representing the young people of Taup\u014D. The disability working group engaged closely with the Ministry of Disabled People\u2014Whaikaha, and I was really impressed with the work and the thinking demonstrated by the Youth MPs involved. Our Government is due to provide a formal response to the findings and recommendations of the working group by the end of August. I\u2019m advised that Whaikaha is currently reviewing the recommendations in partnership with the Ministry of Education. The Ministry of Disabled People has noted some parallels with ideas being considered as part of the work on refreshing the New Zealand Disability Strategy, which is a key focus for Whaikaha this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242e5a31a691e4c7a84fcb68c5263161c\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: How will she respond to the findings that disabled learners remain an afterthought in resourcing conversations, and will she commit to the report recommendation to increase direct funding to learning support, assistive technology, and disability accommodations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273147845818942988c907f1cb5563a85\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my response to the primary answer, Whaikaha are working closely with the Ministry of Education on a formal response to the Youth MPs. But what I would say as a reminder to the House is that in Budget 2025, the learning-support budget increased by $745\u00A0million thanks to the work from the Minister of Education, recognising that too many children are missing out on education, and that\u2019s why this funding boost is significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221944444c4d3640ffac835b6f90cd59c4\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree that teachers and teacher-aides are inadequately resourced to teach disabled learners, and, if so, what is she doing to ensure that teachers and disabled students are getting the funding, support, and training they need to succeed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022269c04acafd1431db3ee5c5256e9a6ab\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: If the member has specific questions around education and education funding, I would invite her to put that to the Minister of Education. But what I would say, again, is that the working group of the Youth Parliament was very considered. There will be a formal response that will be led by Whaikaha but supported by the Ministry of Education. The other thing I would reiterate, again, is that we are working on a refresh of the New Zealand Disability Strategy, of which education is a core pillar, one of the five. No doubt, many of the issues that were raised in the Youth Parliament will be lined up as part of that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b48e2a1c29b546e98104e60c7c63802e\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: How will she respond to the finding that disabled young people are often marginalised, isolated, or shuffled into segregated spaces in schools due to being ill equipped, insufficiently resourced, and lacking support, which is in direct contradiction with their legal rights?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eae230fab534a7b9b02039cbec2e6de\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I will say that for detailed responses around issues of education, I would invite the member to address the question to the Minister of Education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f90ff87d50c4456981a95a43bd7ff479\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Will the response from Whaikaha to the Youth MPs include any commitments to implement the recommendations from our Youth MPs, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da5c7564fc6a4e199ab6711ffcac3f15\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my answer to the primary question, work is under way at the moment. Whaikaha is working closely with the Ministry of Education, and I\u2019m pleased to say that we will be giving a formal response to the Youth Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baef8e7e6e6d4decb01405575ceb1f04\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that disabled people\u2019s support systems are chronically underfunded across all stages of life, despite making up 17 percent of the New Zealand population, and does she find it acceptable that disabled learners\u2019 voices are being ignored when fighting for less than the bare minimum?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227220a921d792425681dd9f6c00106aac\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure if the question is intended specifically around education, but I have answered part of that in terms of the funding boost secured by the Minister of Education in the tune of $745 million in learning support. I would also put on record, again, the $1.1 billion investment in Disability Support Services last year, and another billion dollars this year into Disability Support Services. I accept that the challenges of those\u2014particularly young people\u2014with disabilities is still great, and that\u2019s why our Government is focused on doing things that improve their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6f664a2c751473da16baffc2ec3f006\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014RMA Reform\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00220574de4e61734ca38a0d1f9c0ca044a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220574de4e61734ca38a0d1f9c0ca044a6\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for RMA Reform: What recent updates has he given about the Fast-track Approvals Act 2024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002243170588fecf414faa204bdd036a32fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243170588fecf414faa204bdd036a32fc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E This morning, I gave an update on the fast-track consenting regime. Six months in, things are going great. In the first six months, 50 projects have made applications. By the end of this year, at least eight projects will have completed, or are expected to complete, the full end-to-end fast-track process, including final decisions. Kiwis are sick of red and green tape holding this economy back. We cannot afford to hold these projects up. We need to grow jobs, grow the economy, and grow productivity to deliver better outcomes for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269d3868dad774152afcecbf67e26a30c\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: How many applicants has the Minister referred into the process to date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022714bb5a298c344e999045ae6825b8426\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Projects that are not listed in the Act can apply for referral. I\u2019ve referred seven projects into the fast-track process, meaning they can progress to the next stage of the process. Sixteen other applications are also under consideration. The latest three referrals I\u2019ve made are the second stage of the Auckland surf park\u2014which includes a large artificial intelligence data centre, a residential development of 400 homes, and a village centre\u2014and The Point Mission Bay, which would see 252 new retirement homes and amenities for residents and visitors. These are the types of projects the Government wants to see under way and being fast-tracked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fca68d2c57e648c4853be05193bc5f8b\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: When can New Zealanders expect the first approvals to be granted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279c17bedef8b4249a44898c17d6595b8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, eight projects are currently before expert panels. We are expecting decisions on those projects by mid-September. If they\u2019re approved, they will contribute billions to our economy. My understanding is that some will be under way very soon after approval. The fast-track regime is critical for New Zealand getting on with the job of rebuilding this economy after years of neglect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ed7eb814af14718b49b4ca0d1928458\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022e067ffdf4dc14a1e8487c0eb3890cd65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e067ffdf4dc14a1e8487c0eb3890cd65\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does the Minister stand by her target of reducing jobseeker numbers by 50,000; if so, is the target closer or further away from being achieved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022a47f3d35506f4688a0fa18ae0b8bff72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a47f3d35506f4688a0fa18ae0b8bff72\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, absolutely. Our Government is committed to having 50,000 fewer people on the jobseeker benefit by 2030. Jobseeker numbers have been rising steadily since 2022 and are expected to peak later this year. Unfortunately, the forecast has always been that numbers would get worse before they get better. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve created a more active welfare system to support more job seekers into work. It\u2019s also why our Government is relentlessly focused on growth, so that businesses have the confidence to hire staff to create better-paying jobs and New Zealanders can share in the benefits of growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e63d5d0f66de480f86125c85ef61fdbe\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister patting herself on the back saying that job seekers are moving into work when the number of people receiving jobseekers has gone up, homelessness has gone up, and M\u0101ori unemployment has increased every quarter since she\u2019s been in office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bea21e2b33974cc5906ef6db830a268f\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said, rising unemployment is a lingering consequence of the economic times we have, and the numbers were always forecast to go up before they come down. That is the reality of where we are now. After years of high inflation, high Government spending, and low growth, jobs and employment are one of the last indicators to turn. But I\u2019m really confident our approach is working, given that 98.4 percent of people who are on the jobseeker benefit are at green, which means they are taking the steps they need to in terms of their work obligations, and we\u2019ve seen over 70,000 people exit the jobseeker benefit into work\u2014a 19 percent increase on the same time last year. I think that\u2019s pretty good news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225970bc81d447498f844e1b0f17e8acea\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: How are people supposed to get off jobseekers when 753 people applied for a support worker role in the Waikato, 998 applied for one admin assistant role in Southland, and 740 people applied for a supermarket ad for casual work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022919d98bfb77e4230bcd3362114e97c59\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said\u2014and I want to just put on record, as I have previously, for those who have become unemployed\u2014it is an incredibly challenging time, and the labour market is very tight. That is why our Government is focused on growth. We\u2019ve heard\u2014just the question before this\u2014a list of the fast-track projects that are due to be approved, and some of them will start, we expect, before Christmas. That\u2019s in addition to the announcement at the weekend around infrastructure projects. That will also mean more jobs. Our Government is focused. The jobs and skills hubs are doing a great job of ensuring that when those jobs are there, our people are ready and in line for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d50883b00494b26b05a4ab14e31d54d\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: How are Pasifika meant to deal with the rising cost of living crisis, when the amount of Pasifika on jobseekers has risen to over 28,000 under her watch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c248789b36d14d6592a1b7ed9bb74cc0\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I know that the number of M\u0101ori and Pasifika and young people are disproportionately affected when we have higher numbers on the jobseeker benefit, which is why we are focused on programmes that are successful, like by having 490 case managers working each and every day on the front line. That is the most intensive programme and the most successful programme. So I think the members should take comfort in the fact that there was an increase in the number of Pasifika job seekers exiting into work over the same time last year\u20141,500 more, a 21.3 percent increase\u2014despite it being challenging out there right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250b6a3fdea374d43adc4cb02eb8148c1\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of young people: why should young people trust this Government, when young people are filling 21,000 fewer jobs than a year ago? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282921f6bc7734a75a2d7096a2e9729b6\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my last answer: unfortunately, young people are disproportionately affected when the jobseeker numbers are high. That is why our side of the House is absolutely focused on a far more active welfare system, and we are unwilling to accept young people staying on welfare for up to 20 years of their life. That\u2019s why the under-25s are such a focus of our Government and we are rolling Welfare that Works out further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022810ef1e203a4435e8098cffca8fbb38b\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: How many more people losing their jobs will it take before the Minister admits and takes responsibility for her Government that is failing Aucklanders, failing M\u0101ori, failing workers, failing women, and failing New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225163c766bad54517a73c4ab98170864e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a question that could be answered in part, but not necessarily responded to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268a2e312b4464c2aad57b124bed6e9b2\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very proud of our record, despite there being challenging economic times, significantly more people exiting off to the jobseeker benefit into jobs than a year ago. This side of the House recognises that having an ambitious target to reduce the number of people on the jobseeker benefit is achieved one person at a time, one job at a time, because that one life is significantly improved, as is their wh\u0101nau and their community. That\u2019s why we will not shy away from this target.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e30ef9a1c4fc478cb1e8fd04d512b06d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u00225ef5bc9c2f634a9284c190c36fa33734\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ef5bc9c2f634a9284c190c36fa33734\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent announcements has she made regarding school property?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d38fef191f854c23bcacc45ee2a5e7dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d38fef191f854c23bcacc45ee2a5e7dc\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E We are delivering the classrooms in schools that our students need to thrive. I recently announced that we have put an end to open-plan classrooms, we\u2019ve had a major investment into more classrooms for the Auckland region, and the establishment of the New Zealand School Property Agency to improve delivery of school property across the education system. Last year, we reduced the average cost of a classroom by nearly 30 percent at the same time as delivering 30 percent more classrooms than the previous year. We\u2019re building more classrooms faster at a lower cost so our funding can go further, and more students benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022765bd9de604947f9a1ad289eed507a1d\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What announcements has she made for school property in Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6653b7dd7da46bea904e40275165251\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: In response to Auckland\u2019s rapid roll growth, we\u2019re investing more than $120 million into classrooms that our students need. Through Budget 2025, we\u2019re establishing a new school at Chapel Downs, and we\u2019re building an additional 137 new classrooms across 24 schools, creating more than 3,000 student placements in the network. These projects are expected to enter construction in the next 12 months. We\u2019ve also confirmed a site purchase for a new primary school in P\u014Dkeno, because this is a Government of action and delivery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3ff7f2584a145cda96743bc24de247a\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What announcements has she made regarding school properties delivery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262b7b574b32a4872908275f15d49a130\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: One of the recommendations from the ministerial inquiry into school property was the creation of a new separate entity to manage school property. We accepted this recommendation and will create the New Zealand School Property Agency. We will be bringing commercial discipline and oversight of a professional board to deliver better communication, better value for money, better transparency, and more warm, safe, dry classrooms for our kids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263329c9012d74f7bbd68e91ffbeae836\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: How does this contribute to the Government\u2019s infrastructure pipeline?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee8c3a3e91604a81a9beeadadd878173\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Excellent question. Over the next six months alone, there is $794\u00A0million of investment in school property works that will be starting. That includes new classrooms, a new school, and new redevelopment projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f3bc2c1358840caafdbe1ffa0bc3d79\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has she received on these announcements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229533e603793243b0bf9ecb274aeda74a\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The response to the Auckland classrooms announcements has been positive. One principal said, \u201CI\u2019ve been at this school for 23 years and never before has our roll been this high or have we had the need to have classes operating out of our library, professional learning, and kitchen spaces until now. We\u2019re very excited about this project and look forward to the arrival of our new teaching and learning spaces.\u201D In response to the School Property Agency announcement, one principal said, \u201CIt is my view that this will provide the opportunity to ensure greater systemic efficiencies and reduce inequities.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fb5940e35424ce08ab15c82bb8231ea\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister point to any progress in extracting better value for money in the cost per new classroom built?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c95bf8f20bc34c228f975fe644d9795a\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: As it currently stands today, we are providing classrooms for half the price that we did at the end of 2023. At the end of 2023, it was $1.2 million; today, to provide classrooms, it is about $630,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d3255f49b454c44a9e5aecc66be1137\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u00224c726583b14140f48519e4484f31257f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c726583b14140f48519e4484f31257f\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What specific M\u0101ori health outcomes, if any, will improve as a result of his proposed changes to the Pae Ora (Healthy Futures) Act 2022?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022069305afc0d941e7960ad3d1497c9961\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022069305afc0d941e7960ad3d1497c9961\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Our Government is committed to improving health outcomes for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori. That\u2019s why we\u2019re passing the Healthy Futures (Pae Ora) Amendment Bill, to ensure the health system is focused on delivery for patients, not bureaucracy. Following previous decisions to remove health targets and restructure the health system in the middle of a pandemic, patients are being left waiting longer for treatment, accountability has been lost, and outcomes have gone backwards for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori. We\u2019re turning that around, and this legislation makes amendments to specifically put health targets into law, which will require every part of the system to focus on delivery, and this will be across all five of our health targets: shorter stays in emergency departments, increased immunisations, shorter wait times for electives and specialist appointments, and our faster cancer treatment targets. These changes are about improving outcomes for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e3499df09af4e9d96aec187ca6abb95\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What evidence does the Minister rely on to show that defunding Iwi M\u0101ori Partnership Boards (IMPBs) and removing Te Tiriti obligations will close the seven- to eight-year M\u0101ori life-expectancy gap rather than widen it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaf517ecfcd942499876298c26a5292d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, section 6 of the Act, which is the Treaty of Waitangi obligations, continues to provide the framework for giving effect to the principles of the Treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7c233074cd84cf6b16f4c70cd6f69e5\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Just to clarify, the question was: what evidence does the Minister rely on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022463b791cf6004c9e9125d81b1d56bae7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know that question asked about the removal of something, and the Minister basically said it\u2019s not removed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022721bcda194ca43c2862d4704f2ccd8fc\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Which iwi, if any, asked to have their powers over Iwi M\u0101ori Partnership Board appointments stripped?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291e2f21207a24001b8890f443d15270c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: We went through a process to make a number of changes. We sought advice from the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee, and that advice has supported us in the process of drafting this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222770e1c72a6e41c5bde6825808121ae4\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. My question was: which iwi, if any, asked to have their powers over Iwi M\u0101ori Partnership Board appointments stripped?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c3e70e2d12d46c3968dc446b06e75d8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister might like to expand on his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c17d0e20e7174f6390a375525768f036\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said, we went through a policy process. We engaged specifically with the Hauora M\u0101ori Partnership Board, who provided us advice in relation to the changes. The legislation is now going through Parliament, and there is an opportunity for all iwi and IMPBs and other interested parties to put forward their submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204d702f72d714d958f16ff593a01fdf9\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, please, Mr Speaker. I don\u2019t believe my question was addressed. It was: \u201CWhich iwi?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243264c8beddb466f8b58a1b4f7dfca15\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, it was difficult to see how it was addressed. So if you perhaps just take another question, without loss of opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201309b9af6b64a6b92a795039b1ff775\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister ignoring leading M\u0101ori health experts, like Professor Sue Crengle and Dame Naida Glavish, who have warned these reforms will cause direct harm to M\u0101ori communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b73de2d7e8d4ba4964f314d712bd10c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said in earlier questions, we engaged with the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee\u2014many of those members appointed under the previous Government\u2014on these changes, and, ultimately, the focus here is about improving outcomes for M\u0101ori. And all of those health targets which this Government has reinstated, which the last Government removed, showed that health outcomes went backwards for M\u0101ori when the health targets were not in place. We have reinstated those targets\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216e805627ca345c297765ae1f7af24c4\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245037825606347dcb8a451b6e561432b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and our focus now is on improving\u2014I hear Willie Jackson say, \u201CRubbish.\u201D Well, the reality is the rate of immunisations for our M\u0101ori tamariki went down from around 90 percent into the 60 percent under their six years in office. We are now focused on restoring the health targets and improving outcomes for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022763f9ef88c574b5281f0fd18d6e0761d\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234f5b3a49fd24a789178d0884aad8af6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait for a moment while the House composes itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e022a9659ab94679a8e893922bd1192e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister as to why the most critical element to change the effect of M\u0101ori longevity is diet, and why have we avoided that discussion in the health system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237ba64d41c8543d79775902fde1b7c7a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there\u2019s a range of issues which the health system needs to focus on, and the way that this Government seeks to focus that on is through the health targets, which ultimately seek to ensure the system is delivering for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227675f8e31edb432c8e208b14804999a1\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that the Minister did not consult with any iwi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e52f2d2f33e24255aa1082e29896f668\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: There was no consultation with iwi during the process, but there is an opportunity through the select committee process for iwi and for Iwi M\u0101ori Partnership Boards to be able to have their say, and I encourage them to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3ce4eb464844fcc8d4ec1fe8fbc18f4\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister reconcile his claim of improving equity, when M\u0101ori now have fewer rights, fewer resources, and less say on their own health than before this Government came to power?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243e5899d11304593970bb9feaa598a02\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would put it to you, Mr Speaker, that when you look at the statistics as to what happened under the last Government, when the health targets were removed, the outcomes for M\u0101ori went backwards. Whether it\u2019s shorter wait times in emergency departments\u201490\u00A0percent of M\u0101ori were being seen within six hours; when we came back to office, it was down to 71.6 percent. When it comes to immunisations for our tamariki, when Labour came to office, 89.3\u00A0percent of two-year-olds were being immunised; when we came back to office, in 2023, it\u2019s down to 64.8 percent. The facts speak for themselves. By reinstating health targets and ensuring accountability of the system, we will improve outcomes for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f6b23f9bca3b4ddcb38ca24e5a7a82e4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Infrastructure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022bce392e052504167a680577f62593cf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bce392e052504167a680577f62593cf4\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Infrastructure: What is his plan to ensure there is the workforce to deliver the infrastructure pipeline, and how does it address the fact that more than a quarter of builders say that they don\u2019t have enough staff to meet future needs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022d80e14974f9b48b9a154918fbf62bb18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d80e14974f9b48b9a154918fbf62bb18\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister for Infrastructure):\u003C/span\u003E A week ago, that member was complaining about how the people in construction were losing their jobs; and a week later, she was complaining about how they don\u2019t have enough staff. The member needs to figure out what Labour\u2019s position on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af7636c1e75e4e87a43f5d136e838cd9\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Sir, this is a primary question on notice and it is inappropriate for the Leader of the House, in particular, to start with a crack at the person asking the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022359dea137517483bab7cf28fd0b4c9b0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is quite correct. So while it might be appropriate to refer to a previous answer or a previous question, the manner in which that\u2019s done needs to be somewhat more judicious than was exercised just then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225410a3bb1fa24be684f739e66df2f9c1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s good to see that the member acknowledges the significant infrastructure pipeline that is coming. We have $6 billion of central government - funded infrastructure starting between now and Christmas, where there are many elements to the Government\u2019s plan to ensure that there are enough workers to meet this. One is ensuring we have a realistic infrastructure pipeline of deliverable projects, which we\u2019re doing right now. Secondly, we\u2019re ensuring employers have access to people that they need. We\u2019re doing that through, in other ways, enabling immigration settings. We have a five-year work visa for high-skilled roles; we\u2019ve dropped the median wage requirements for accredited employer work visas; we also have a green list for roles with significant skill shortages\u2014there are eight roles on the green list in construction, eight roles in trades, and 28 roles in the engineering industry\u2014and, of course, we have fast-track; and we have Resource Management Act reform to ensure our planning system is enabling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a22786fc82fa416b9df269f20817b0bd\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Civil Contractors New Zealand\u2019s chief executive\u2019s summary of his infrastructure reheat as, \u201CWe knew of the projects anyway, so there\u2019s no [real] surprises there.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253ac07e06a984724ac8a51373ca086e8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well the projects are public, so there\u2019s nothing particularly secret about that. What\u2019s different is that, unlike the last Government that announced them, we\u2019re building them. The Middlemore Hospital recladding was first approved in 2019, and nothing was done. There\u2019s a long list of other projects for which funding was approved, but no actual spades in the ground. So there\u2019s nothing secret about the projects; the difference is that we put the pedal to the metal and they\u2019re going to start construction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aac7ebca649a45c98f40e6ba5bf4a5a3\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Josh Galuszka, senior consultant at Key Skills Recruitment in the Hutt Valley, who said, \u201CGovernments tend to get involved. Infrastructure and education and health all have construction elements \u2026 but what\u2019s happened is this government hasn\u2019t done that. They\u2019ve just pulled the pin on everything.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8ae6b2d9190484cad1ca1c236f06a7d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no\u2014no I don\u2019t. The member mentions the Hutt Valley, which she has some connection with. The Hutt Valley is seeing, in the next five to seven years, $1.5 billion of investment in the Melling Interchange and RiverLink project, which will create thousands of jobs for tradies and engineers and civil constructors in the Wellington region and the Hutt Valley. The New Zealand Transport Agency and the council\u2014both councils in Wellington\u2014are engaging with the Chamber of Commerce and with local employers in order to upskill the workforce so that locals can be employed on that critical project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212f8b16490914aa48f77d7dbb8234f50\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the chief executive of the New Zealand Institute of Architects, who blames his Government\u2019s cuts to infrastructure projects across social housing, health, and education for the downturn in work over the past two years; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255b583cd7f404ee5a6a59778c22ba6ed\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in relation to architecture\u2014the member raises an interesting point\u2014it is probably true that what the Government has done has led to a downturn in architecture. Let me explain why. In school property, for example, we are not building $1.3\u00A0million school classrooms and $100\u00A0million mergers of schools in Marlborough, which had bespoke designs and beautiful architecture for the school. In school property, we\u2019re going back to basics, and, actually, that means fewer architects. On social housing, we are getting the build cost down for K\u0101inga Ora because we do not actually want architecturally designed, beautiful social houses; we want value for money. When it comes to roads, I\u2019ve told the New Zealand Transport Agency, following on from the Hon Simeon Brown, to focus on building stuff. We don\u2019t need the bells and whistles, we don\u2019t need the gold plating, and we don\u2019t need the architecturally designed artwork around the roads. What we actually need are roads built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a33eb52ec9f454e8a1d1cf70a04d52d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, that\u2019s one for everyone for the day because there\u2019s too much noise on both sides of the House during that time. There\u2019s one member on the cross benches at the back there who does need to modify his interventions a little bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227980bf81374244a087f86b7d7c82747f\u0022\u003EHon Erica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that, last year, in school property, we built 583 classrooms compared to 2023, which was 444 classrooms, dispelling any myths that we are building fewer classrooms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258bd428d3614480d8388b794c166d0d1\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: You cancelled $2\u00A0billion worth of projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225095e2c08cb843a09033095f588a8479\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in relation to that interjection from the member who likes to talk a lot, you can\u2019t cancel a project that had no funding. The previous Government was good\u2014this is my exact point\u2014at saying, \u201COh, yes, this thing\u2019s going to be built in the future here.\u201D They were good at appropriating money and not very good at building stuff. They were past masters at big, glossy announcements and useless at building stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022912224badabf4dd8974bc3060fbc0f51\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait for a moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f67667dbb68e4581a7eb5869f191b9f7\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Who will carry out his infrastructure builds, considering Civil Contractors New Zealand\u2019s chief executive says, \u201CIt\u2019s going to be quite difficult to find people.\u201D, now that more than 17,000 construction workers have had to pack up their tools, many of whom have headed offshore?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dafbb3ff3c2841b99d8006fd65fd4f32\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I pointed out at the start of the answer that the member has spent most of this year impotently raging into the void about the number of people who are losing their jobs in construction. She\u2019s now claiming there aren\u2019t enough workers. You can\u2019t have it both ways. In answer to the question, the people who will be doing the work on the construction project in the next six months will be workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae1de2cd3b20492dad9536526b091f87\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister finally admit that his Government\u2019s cuts to public housing and hospital projects have axed 17,000 construction jobs, gutted the construction workforce, and self-sabotaged his own plans to deliver infrastructure that we all need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d24bf0a6c69b4c75aaf35501ad9e5f5e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, we\u2019ll just have a little bit of silence, and then we\u2019ll have a very, very concise answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222001c133445345ac8b650aba3e91bf9b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s hard to know where to start. Public housing building has continued, K\u0101inga Ora built thousands of houses in the last two years, and we have funded a future pipeline of social housing. Over the last 18 months, there has been a record investment in road maintenance, and the National Land Transport Fund is at record levels, and it is being spent alongside councils. The infrastructure pipeline, published by the independent Infrastructure Commission, shows that there are many projects in delivery both in the private and public sector. Right now, for example, Auckland Airport is building the biggest infrastructure project in New Zealand history. If the member wants to think that cancelling Auckland Light Rail, Lake Onslow, and Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving that were going to start construction, even under optimistic scenarios, in 2037, has led to a reduction in the number of construction workers right now, the member is entitled to that view\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225082645f4f614d608ea35467ab8ca738\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s quite enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e04028e212804207b6b19a48a7a59468\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Foreign Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd443ab36b7a484d80ff7877b00c8be7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd443ab36b7a484d80ff7877b00c8be7\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: What new commitments, if any, has the Government made to protect Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s marine environment following the United Nations Ocean Conference in France last month?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002267bca0a88b874247b56761c5b7c653d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267bca0a88b874247b56761c5b7c653d8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I attended the United Nations Ocean Conference in Nice, France, last month. No such country turned up, nor is such a country a member of the United Nations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e56f1e3fdf3e40b3a1fffd52ba827d50\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. Look, I ruled on this back in March. You can go against the tide if you want, but it is not inappropriate for members to refer to \u201CAotearoa New Zealand\u201D. That\u2019s a ruling that\u2019s been made in the House and one that should be obliged. I\u2019ll ask Teanau\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5906defa51945f7b4258c22336cddae\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, the name of this country in all the documents, and the membership of the United Nations, is New Zealand. We are not going to have somebody unilaterally\u2014without consultation; without consulting the New Zealand people\u2014change this country\u2019s name. For a start, it\u2019s not the name of the South Island, for a start, where the M\u0101ori are concerned, and we are not going to put up with this sham, bogus pretence that our name has been changed when the New Zealand taxpayer has never been consulted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fb3ef11090d4218a4e2c964739d1505\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fca4bb07483c4347ae357f50c047b66b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. No further on that. I\u2019ve made a ruling. The ruling is there. I\u2019ll make it available to the member once again, but I\u2019ll have Teanau Tuiono ask the question one more time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0e15fd82f9941dd992beecf65a58354\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will follow the Standing Orders and read it exactly as it is written on the paper. What new commitments, if any, has the Government made to protect Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s marine environment following the United Nations Ocean Conference in France last month?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6b6abe689684695a017e16716974a05\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Because no such country exists, we made no such commitments. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea14b986aed44dc99f7343f6830d7469\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is everybody ready? Now, we\u2019ve got a bit of a problem, because in the ruling that I made earlier in the year, I noted that the New Zealand Geographic Board also recognises and uses the term \u201CAotearoa New Zealand\u201D. It would be utterly ridiculous for this House to ban such use if the Geographic Board itself is using that; it is a Government agency. If there is to be any change to the Government agency the Geographic Board\u2019s position, it should be done by legislation by the Government. Ask the question again, and the question does need to be addressed in a reasonable fashion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cde369ad6114bcd9949aacacc6d3f90\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Again, what new commitments, if any, has the Government made to protect Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s marine environment following the United Nations Ocean Conference in France last month?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e56394b146dc41bd9d33a18b7f33d191\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: In all the discussions, all the debates, and all the papers before that conference, this country\u2019s name was never mentioned in the way that that questioner has framed it. And I\u2019m not going to be dishonest with this House and say that it was represented, because it wasn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022102427fb3a0d4a24b97b326512ba4779\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb66f7189bde43d4acb718ab2876ae96\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Did he share with world leaders at the UN conference that this Government has abandoned plans to establish a new ocean sanctuary, allowed commercial fishing in the marine protected areas, fast tracked seabed mining projects, and repeatedly blocked international attempts to restrict bottom-trawling on vulnerable deep-sea ecosystems in the South Pacific, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022846e46c8932a4fe9a59e746ec7e18de2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: If by \u201Cthis country\u201D, that questioner is asking about a country called \u201CNew Zealand\u201D, no, I did not share that information because it is a total falsity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ea017b84f4445b0a93d68b2ef45d922\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I just grabbed off the Table in front of you the Budget at a Glance, published by Te K\u0101wanatanga o Aotearoa, which is translated, of course, as \u201Cthe New Zealand Government\u201D. Is it the position of the House now that it\u2019s acceptable for any Minister to stand up and say, if questioned on the Budget documents of Te K\u0101wanatanga o Aotearoa, that no such country exists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f6226b297b642658f7ee1c6e7e7ce7c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, and if you think about the last answer that was given by the Rt Hon Winston Peters, he made it very clear that the term was not used as it was asked in the question. It was well answered, given the question that was asked\u2014but we\u2019re not going down that particular track. There are some semantics involved here, without a doubt. Teanau Tuiono, you had another question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227569d52a5c984d798cc2a61aa16dcd48\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Am I asking the same question again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f83744e831004e918d0dba8eb4f76659\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f83744e831004e918d0dba8eb4f76659\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. A new supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233d98469cb31481f8942cc2a7f4a018e\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: OK, cool. Does he agree with the former Minister of Foreign Affairs who said, in 2006, that \u201CNew Zealand has been prepared to support, in principle, the concept of an interim global moratorium on bottom trawling on the high seas, if such a proposal had sufficient global support\u201D, and, if so, does he believe that New Zealand being the last country in the South Pacific to still allow bottom trawling constitutes sufficient global support? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219faab5e30dd41d8aee570cc3618f302\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Seeing as that member has raised a very insightful comment on 2006, yes, I totally agree, because we said \u201Cin principle\u201D and we are still working on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaebb76bb9b5487e9465a5bf3c94c5d8\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister introduce legislation to allow our country to join 49 other countries, including several of our neighbours in the Pacific, in ratifying the High Seas Treaty to preserve biodiversity in the high seas, or is he willing to allow us to lag behind our international partners? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b3354b57ac541638c45a52ee64e5e3b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I dismiss the last part of that comment; it was totally out of order? He did not finish with a question; he just finished with a criticism, and you should rule it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9ac1675f7334927b447fecc1453fb4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9ac1675f7334927b447fecc1453fb4e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, to be perfectly honest, I didn\u2019t quite pick that up so we\u2019ll hear the question again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c65869874a5a42b98fa41e531896f1eb\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Hear the question again\u2014cool. Will the Minister introduce legislation to allow our country to join 49 other countries, including several of our neighbours in the Pacific, in ratifying the High Seas Treaty to preserve biodiversity in the high seas, or is he willing to allow us to lag behind our international partners? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce75210693aa423cb4d75ad71ad5c232\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce75210693aa423cb4d75ad71ad5c232\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, a question can be asked with two legs. The Minister should at least address the first part of the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a1c14eba36b4ae1accbe3f24b486f40\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, addressing the first part of the question: since the third United Nations Ocean Conference in Nice in June, New Zealand has made several policy and financial commitments in the areas of sustainable fisheries in the Pacific, including in ocean science, management, and governance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3446ac998774c99b8dcfeca2c0a461e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Read it like you mean it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221231132d0eb64422931ab1d38e04c8a6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, like you, you mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207adec33355d4a88bf761fbacc1013f5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I always read it like I mean it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3fb042732944226a85276b1a4bb4f9b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Double-cross that bridge when you come to it. We have also launched an island restoration project and are building capacity across the entire Asia-Pacific in the area of seabird-safe fishing, and we will soon be updating New Zealand\u2019s national plan of action to prevent, deter, and eliminate illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing, and we\u2019re not going to have a bonfire of the vanities when we have decided on this policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b54f9e64832c463db4a586fe204b91cf\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CAs a maritime state with one of the world\u2019s largest and most\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202e731e898a34636b703106c5772596e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. To the member, would you mind saying again\u2014there was a lot of conversation going on, making it difficult to ensure I know what you\u2019re actually saying. Please, speak again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290a490092425440c936c11ab573450e5\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CAs a maritime state with one of the world\u2019s largest and most biodiverse marine areas, New Zealand strongly supports a \u2026 system that secures the conservation and sustainable use of our oceans.\u201D, and, if so, is he concerned about our international reputation, given that this Government has failed to announce a single new policy to protect the ocean? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a51eab2f68c64fefa8b88370c9f660c4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That last statement is demonstrably incorrect. The Hauraki Gulf T\u012Bkapa Moana and south-east coast of the South Island are two clearer statements. I don\u2019t know where the member was when all this work was being done. There is more protection in place now than there ever was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e8631bd7b5b742ada387c61d24ab3a93\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Trade and Investment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u00224cf89f36c39c4416b56de3b35b6ceda3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cf89f36c39c4416b56de3b35b6ceda3\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Trade and Investment: What opportunities will New Zealand exporters have following the third reading of the United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u002238a2140e42c64c9eae5c4e768d406746\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238a2140e42c64c9eae5c4e768d406746\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister for Trade and Investment):\u003C/span\u003E A $500 billion opportunity. The New Zealand Government has cleared the way for Kiwi exporters to tap into a $500 billion market that imports 90 percent of its food. This agreement delivers real benefits for New Zealand exporters by lowering costs, increasing market access, and securing a strong presence in the Middle East. Two-way trade between New Zealand and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) was worth $1.35 billion last year, and this agreement will accelerate growth by reducing red tape, boosting services trade, and supporting investment links.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022586d7a482ee44716abbbdf72f8b4e5ba\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: What is the significance of a free-trade agreement (FTA) with the UAE?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ac0081b523c492bb6f6827b0cb2b90b\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: This is the highest-quality and fastest-negotiated agreement by New Zealand that will immediately remove tariffs on 98.5 percent of New Zealand exports upon entry into force, rising to 99 percent just three years later. This high-quality trade agreement builds on New Zealand\u2019s strengths and our FTA network. UAE consumers are actively seeking safe, fresh products from around the world and are willing to pay more for them, giving New Zealand exporters an opportunity to lead in this very competitive market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d39091060014ff0b409a4297331f1d5\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: How will the New Zealand - UAE Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement (CEPA) boost New Zealand\u2019s economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022684d4719e2b440468003a0f54db5919f\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: The agreement will see zero-tariff rates on entry into force for key New Zealand exports, including all dairy products, beef and sheep meat, honey, seafood, forestry products, horticultural commodities, and many industrial items. On entry into force, it unlocks $42 million of immediate savings and growing market access, which helps New Zealand double the value of exports over 10 years. Last year, New Zealand exported $84 million of services to the UAE; whilst a modest amount, this agreement grows two-way trade and has specific mention and focus on services, and business connections will quickly surpass the $1 billion mark in coming years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022015f5b7c58384f259bb185952ec2f0ba\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: How else is the Government strengthening ties in the Middle East?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cb1fbc5deb04fb0a493bd561d106087\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand and the Gulf Cooperation Council concluded negotiations last year on a trade agreement that will unlock a $3 trillion regional economy and deliver duty-free access for 99 percent of our exports over 10 years. With the UAE CEPA combined with that, over half of New Zealand\u2019s exports to the region will be tariff free from day one. Saudi Arabia presents a $1 trillion opportunity for New Zealand exporters. With 33 million people and 80 percent of its food coming from overseas, it\u2019s a market where demand for high-quality, trusted products is growing. The Government will lead a trade mission to Saudi Arabia later this year to facilitate better trade for exporters and boost the economy, because when we grow our trade, we grow our economy, creating jobs, lifting incomes, and delivering better opportunities for every New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a941995c66c741cfa9b467b9fcef4d92\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does this amendment bill have the support of all the political parties in the New Zealand Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b96b9f929704d39bb0a3dbd5354afc5\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: It has the support of political parties that believe in trade and want to grow the economy, so it\u2019s every party in the Government, but no\u2014to the Minister\u2014disappointingly, there are still some parties in our Parliament that put politics before the best interests of growth and jobs for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c2a49db3de1a4648a7c768d26586c34d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00222a23d98c9d5a4b15b01bd8549028c036\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a23d98c9d5a4b15b01bd8549028c036\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Housing: How have homelessness statistics changed in each major urban centre, according to the Homelessness Insights report he received in June 2025, both in absolute numbers and percentage terms, when comparing the most recent reporting period to the previous one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u00227e9db09c68d54842ad832d6192758317\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e9db09c68d54842ad832d6192758317\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E This Government takes homelessness seriously, and resolving homelessness is more than just housing. No one in this House wants to see fellow Kiwis living without shelter. The homelessness insights report confirms there are many people with housing need, but accurate numbers are hard to pin down, especially when you ask for absolute numbers or percentage terms across any centre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203a8319c4a52436bb6b702e1800d2e82\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3c10a9c4e7b46098ff0a6736cadad38\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, the Hon Tama\u2014the Hon Kieran Mog\u2014Kieran McAnulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204b3e41ee55a456c90e2cdc7cfaa8de0\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all right, we all know who you mean\u2014it\u2019s all good. Thank you, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ed61d1ba2b7433ba3eec9eb4e8004d1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, some people may not\u2014you\u2019re not that well known.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2a797aaff644af9b5809b92a0a4592c\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! I am in Eket\u0101huna, sir, so that\u2019s all that matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f7267f92e2e41059e9a0631c7f3842f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, I tell you what, it\u2019s centre of the Earth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fb6840128274eb38fcf7b23ad10e90a\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Anyway, we\u2019ll get on with it, shall we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f98eb7365176494092e0b2a8a2d006fa\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fab58bdfdc241ad9eef88892e104dd8\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: The question, again, was on notice and it was very carefully worded. It was asking for comparisons from the homelessness insights report that was released publicly today, to the previous one released in December. The Minister does not need to provide specifics or concrete numbers; he just simply needs to be able to provide the comparison between the two reports, as was outlined in each of them. He did not come close to that, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d140a760d114462872b831777bcc89c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the point is he did address the question, and whether or not the question is satisfactorily addressed is not for me to judge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e59f34c95e14d85805b71f2d24f4768\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the homelessness insights report finds it difficult to find data and relies on census data, and that will cause a challenge, given the Government\u2019s decision to cancel the census?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae8b843e8d2b43b8815bd2a262e569e9\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: This homelessness insights report has come about as a result of the new administration and over the last 18 months. The only official data and estimate of those living without shelter, and in other categories of homelessness, come from the census, the latest of which, of course, was Census 2023. As a result of this insights report, we know that there is a genuine need for housing, and many front-line providers have amplified that message.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279c655ffe8de4b58ac35ad0bae2a98c0\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: How can he claim his policies are working, when his own report has shown that homeless in T\u0101maki-makau-rau has near doubled from 426 in September 2024 to 809 in May 2025?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240ab532d68a44ad1895e4c6f90a91896\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: There is no doubt that the various reports from council, community housing providers, and others have expressed and exhibited a genuine housing need, particularly in the areas of homelessness. But what the report also says is\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CIt is not possible to determine the extent to which changes described in this report reflect existing trends and broader economic and social contexts or are attributable to policy changes.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1176a692c0e44f89c888cf054ae1ba0\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Can he guarantee that the homelessness figures in the report he released a few hours ago have not been changed and has been released in full since he received them in June?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdb765e4ea7b4958ad6c4cc87008c0e9\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: I can guarantee that this Government\u2019s solution is not putting another $1.5 billion into a dark and dank moral catastrophe known as emergency housing. What we\u2019ve actually done is asked Government officials to report and advise on further targeted interventions for those living without shelter, to provide recommendations to better utilise the existing half billion dollars that is put towards transitional housing and a number of other programmes, and, of course, to engage with credible providers. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237eac1ca815a478da74fc0ef7a8abc59\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc2386966aa941a2b3f90a27e8c3b515\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Had had there not been those outbursts from that side of the House, making an inference against the Minister, I might have asked for the question to be answered again. Is this a point of order on that matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022366b05b82f19454abaee16c72a7a70fa\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I seek leave to table the original homelessness insights report, as received by Ministers Potaka and Bishop, and the subsequent version that has been released today, which shows that there are no changes beyond\u2014well, the members can judge for themselves, but there aren\u2019t any changes to the data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022087733374bdd48139bc82ca4164bfdae\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that cause of action. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe548a599f954accbf3d1f52b67dd39a\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Following the report, does he still believe the rise in homelessness is anecdotal, and, if not, when will he finally accept responsibility and admit that his Government\u2019s housing policy is failing, making homelessness worse in our beautiful country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270cf423085c7402caef96fc50bf111e3\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: As we all know and, of course, is confirmed by this report\u2014the homelessness insight report\u2014there are a number of front-line providers who have confirmed there is a genuine need amongst many, many New Zealanders. What we are doing about it, of course, is taking action, whether or not that\u2019s the announcements around M\u0101ori housing that we undertook at Waitangi Day, $200 million for an additional 400 homes; whether it\u2019s the \u201Cgoing for housing growth\u201D mahi that Minister Bishop is leading; whether it\u2019s the half a billion dollars of taxpayer funding that is put through transitional housing, Housing First, and a range of other programmes for which we seek to understand the optimal utilisation around; whether it\u2019s the community housing providers, the 1,500 extra homes that we\u2019ve supported on an income-related rent subsidy basis and the various methods in which we can help finance and fund those organisations asking for advice; whether it\u2019s additional meetings on the national homelessness data report; and a whole range of activities being undertaken in Minister Upston\u2019s office down at te Manat\u016B Whakahiato Ora around housing support products or housing brokers. I think that this Government is taking action and resolving some of the concerns, the catastrophes, and the cataclysms that were left behind by our former colleagues from the other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235a755ae4b3e4ed38d94781453dcc2af\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The time for oral questions has\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cacb10f7fc854cf89a5609f6dc83deae\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I apologise to the House. I seek leave to correct a statement I just made in relation to the tabling of those documents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cac435fe60374023b3173672bb027d99\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8a6ffb8681c47f8acaf6ee6869d9cd9\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I think I said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268e111d46f16493580d65af302e37846\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Wait on\u2014is there any objection? Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d755abe480f40389ccefa728b56c980\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I think I said at the end of my seeking leave to table that no data had been changed. From memory, there are a couple of items: I queried whether or not a figure was correct, and the final document shows that the figure was wrong, and it was subsequently updated by officials. I didn\u2019t want to mislead the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022334e4ee9da214c3f9beb35ff05fa29c1\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e9019ae64823405ba7b6986207d260a1\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1454014ddab45b791ad32798228ee8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1454014ddab45b791ad32798228ee8b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis Government was elected on a promise: a promise to make life easier for hard-working New Zealanders. But today, after months of spin, we now know that that promise has been comprehensively broken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI stood opposite Christopher Luxon during the leaders\u2019 debates in the last election campaign, where he unequivocally promised New Zealand families with kids that they would be $250 a fortnight better off under this Government. A year and a half in, not one New Zealand family is $250 a fortnight better off under this Government because of their promises. But it gets worse than that, because then they said that 21,000 New Zealand families were going to get help through their FamilyBoost policy, with $150 every fortnight. That was $100 less than what they were told they were going to get during the election campaign, but it was still $150 a fortnight that would mean a lot to New Zealand families struggling with the rising cost of living. So how many of New Zealand\u2019s 5 million people are actually benefiting from that? One hundred and fifty-three. That\u2019s 153 down\u20144,999,847 still to go. They promised Kiwis they were going to be better off, and yet New Zealanders know that things are getting worse, not better, under this Government. One hundred and fifty-three families; less than 1 percent of those who were promised they were going to be better off under this Government are getting what they were promised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhat we see instead is a Government that distracts, that blames, that spins, that attacks\u2014not a Government that\u2019s focused on actually delivering the things they said they were going to deliver. Number one on their list was tackling the rising cost of living. Let\u2019s be clear about exactly what it was they said\u2014and I have a few quotes. Nicola Willis said, \u201CThe first priority should be to respond to the cost of living crisis.\u201D\u2014and yet the cost of living crisis is getting worse. Another comment from Nicola Willis: \u201Cmy simple message is this: cost of living relief is on the way.\u201D When\u2019s it arriving? New Zealanders are still waiting for the cost of living relief that they were promised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon said, \u201CThe first thing we\u2019ve got to do is reduce the cost of living.\u201D \u201CReduce\u201D\u2014note the word \u201Creduce\u201D in there, not \u201CMake it get harder, just a little bit slower than it was before.\u201D He promised that he was going to \u201Creduce\u201D the cost of living, and yet today in the House he was celebrating the fact that the cost of living is still going up, and saying New Zealanders should be grateful for that, when he promised them that the cost of living was going to reduce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ENicola Willis said, \u201CNational will take action to get food prices under control once more.\u201D Yet food prices continue to go up. It has never been more expensive to buy a block of butter in New Zealand. And, you know, I start to wonder. I used to think they were really good at spin, but watching Nicola Willis at question time today, I wondered what had happened to their political radar. Of all the days to be boasting about high international dairy prices, I\u2019m not sure the day after you met with Fonterra to berate them for the fact that the price of butter was too high is the day to be talking about how great it is that we\u2019re getting so much money from selling our butter internationally. What exactly is the Government\u2019s position? Is it that international dairy prices are good for New Zealand, or is it that butter prices are too high? Because they seem to think that they can argue both of those things at the same time. The Government simply don\u2019t have a consistent position on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhat have the Government been doing in the meantime? It\u2019s been all about the theatre; it\u2019s been all about attacking other people; it\u2019s been all about apportioning blame. But I can tell you that\u2019s not what it\u2019s about for the mother who is skipping meals for the kids. It\u2019s not about that for the pensioners who are turning off their heaters because they cannot afford to pay the power bills. This Government was elected saying they were going to serve. They said they were going to solve those problems for New Zealanders. We are now more than halfway through this parliamentary term and New Zealanders can see the results of this Government. It\u2019s getting worse, not better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders, I think, are a generous people. They gave the Government time, and now they\u2019re looking at this Government and saying that they aren\u2019t getting what they thought they were voting for at the last election. They deserve better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d234b72686174599b39afa4e0f43939f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d234b72686174599b39afa4e0f43939f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m here to listen to the Opposition. I hear them in question time and in the media, and I feel a little sad that they\u2019ve lost sight of a simple truth that we are 5.3 million people with shared challenges, and what we share in common is much, much greater than anything that divides us. Yet too often, politics overlooks that very basic and obvious fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EPeople get much more, or at least they could, out of a contest of ideas than the prejudice of identity, and yet, when I listen to the Opposition, when I listen to politics around the world, in fact, what I hear is too much zero-sum thinking. I hear far too much identity politics. It\u2019s a toxic mix that is the enemy of unity and progress for all people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis zero-sum thinking\u2014we hear too much of it; we hear it every day. I heard it from one of the Green co-leaders on the TV this morning. She tells her voters that their problems are caused by someone else\u2019s success, and that the solution to their problem is therefore another tax to take their money off them. Well, if we\u2019re to truly solve our problems, then we need the opposite attitude. Every policy question in this House, for any Government in the world, should be: will this policy help create an abundance of wealth for all people? Not only should we cast off the idea that there\u2019s only so much to go round and the way to get ahead is to criticise someone else\u2019s success, as if that caused the problems we might face, actually, we need to get rid of the other side of that toxic mix that is identity politics, that tells us that the differences between New Zealanders\u2014such as when their ancestors arrived on these shores\u2014are greater than the commonalities that we Kiwis all share. Only then do we have a hope of creating the kind of society that makes the progress that we all sorely want to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI just so happen to be proud to be part of a Government that gets that, that thinks in terms of positive sum, and that thinks in terms of our shared challenges and identity as Kiwis, rather than zero-sum thinking and the division of identity politics. You only have to look at the array of policies that this Government is putting in place to see that. Take the simple question of: can the next generation afford a house? Doesn\u2019t matter what your background is or your culture, what people want is a pathway to property ownership in a property-owning democracy. For too long, it\u2019s been too hard. I\u2019m proud to be in this Government. Chris Bishop\u2019s here, Simon Court\u2019s here. Together, they\u2019re working together to make a resource management law that says if you own some land, the presumption is you can build a home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis Government\u2019s also ensuring those pieces of land are connected together with infrastructure that\u2019s properly funded and planned by city and regional partnerships, to see central and local government working together. When you start to do things like that, opportunity starts to open up that people can actually own a place of their own in their own country. That\u2019s not something that you get from zero-sum thinking. It\u2019s not about attacking the landlords or those people or that; it\u2019s about saying how do we build more together, because all of us face the same basic challenges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud to be part of a Government that is committed to transferring a knowledge-rich curriculum from one generation to the next, because when people are able to navigate the 21st century and all of its growing technological sophistication by learning real science and real language and truly understanding the future of the century that they\u2019re going to live in, then their own mana and esteem and ability to chart their own path in life is all the greater. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThen I\u2019m proud to be part of a Government that is ensuring everything we do is lighter on the regulatory impact we make on New Zealanders. We\u2019re removing the red tape so people can actually spend more time providing for themselves and their families and the people they care about in their community, and less time filling out forms and being told no by the umbrella people who stand at the building site, watching while other people work in the rain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThat is the vision we need, that it is possible to create more and all of us benefit, rather than ranking New Zealanders by the arrival time of their ancestors. Let\u2019s build more together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002209fed36983d54440a251951af4569bfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209fed36983d54440a251951af4569bfa\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister for Infrastructure):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s been a great week for infrastructure, jobs, and growth. On Sunday, we announced as a Government that in the next six months there are $6 billion of infrastructure projects starting around the country, and this is just a start. There are many more projects to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe response from the Opposition has been instructive, which is basically to say, \u201COh yeah, nothing to see here. Move along.\u201D Except for the fact that unlike the last Government, which talked a lot and put out a lot of press releases and set up a lot of working groups, we\u2019re actually getting on with the job. In the answers to the Hon Ginny Andersen in Parliament today, I read out a couple of examples of projects\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa9c8cc7019544868625abf96bc66c57\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Funded by Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c52c6519d07146f58e823f6bc2d3a8e7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which were first appropriated funding all the way back in 2019. Remember the Middlemore Hospital recladding? Remember the Middlemore Hospital? Jacinda Ardern, she made a big thing about it during the election campaign and straight after she said, \u201COh, you know, National\u2019s done such a bad job. There\u2019s, like, poo running down the walls at Middlemore.\u201D, and everyone probably assumed they were going to do something about it. That\u2019s partly what the recladding project\u2019s all about. Well, they put money towards it. Well, guess what! Here we are in 2025 and it\u2019s taking a National Government to actually get on with it. We are as a Government building a credible infrastructure pipeline and fixing the mistakes of the past. It\u2019s great to be part of a Government, as the Hon David Seymour says, that is building a brighter future for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of quotes from members opposite that I want to pull out for the House that I think deserve more oxygen and more ventilation. The first is in relation to Barbara Edmonds. Now, there\u2019s quite a bit to talk about the cost of living. Fair enough, times are tough for many Kiwis. Let\u2019s bear in mind that inflation three years ago was 7.3 percent. It\u2019s now back within the band, thanks to the strong fiscal decisions of this Government and sensible economic management. We have got inflation back under control, but that\u2019s not to pretend that life isn\u2019t tough for many people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party\u2019s going on about the cost of living; fair enough, I\u2019d do the same if I was in their situation. But one might think they have some answers about the cost of living. Eventually, a journalist asked Barbara Edmonds this fact and said, \u201COK, fair enough. You\u2019re moaning on about it. What\u2019s your plan?\u201D What did Barbara Edmonds say? \u201COh, I\u2019m not able to identify any specific Labour Party policy that tackles the cost of living.\u201D No policy. No policy whatsoever. One might think, and one might ask, if the Labour Party is going to criticise the Government for the cost of living, that they had a plan. It turns out they have no plan, and to the extent they have a plan\u2014which is based on borrowing, debt, and spending\u2014it would make life worse for New Zealanders. The red tape that they support will make life worse for New Zealanders by driving up costs and flowing through to inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe other quote I want to pull out is from Chris Hipkins, who\u2019s put up a Facebook post or a tweet or something: \u201CNobody should have to leave the country to build a future.\u201D Fair enough. Sounds reasonable. Slightly rich from the guy who basically stopped New Zealanders returning to New Zealand during the COVID years through the disaster that was the managed isolation and quarantine debacle that he imposed on the country. So a little bit rich, but he\u2019s right. People shouldn\u2019t have to leave the country to build a brighter future. We do want New Zealanders to stay here. But the Labour Party opposes every single thing that this Government is doing to create more economic opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll give you a fast track. Now, the Labour Party has their own version of fast track, which has currently got some projects going through, but, of course, this Government has legislated for a much brighter and much more fulsome regime. The question for the Labour Party is: what are they going to do about it? Do they support it or do they not? Because a few weeks ago, they put up a Facebook post which said they would repeal it. Interestingly, that Facebook post has now been taken down, so one wonders what the official Labour Party policy is when it comes to fast track. They opposed it and voted against it on the way through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThere are now eight projects before expert panels, including, for example, the expansion of the Port of Auckland. There\u2019s a project going through to expand the Port of Tauranga; 60 percent of New Zealand\u2019s exports by value go through the Port of Tauranga. It is critical that that very important port is expanding. There are a range of infrastructure and housing and energy projects listed on the fast-track list that are going through. The Labour Party opposes it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EPeople leave New Zealand to go work in the mines in Australia, but the Labour Party opposes any liberalisation of our planning laws to make it easier for mines, make it easier for quarries, make it easier to build roads in this country. The Labour Party opposes Resource Management Act reform, which is the thing, as David Seymour says, that has been the millstone around the neck of this economy for 30 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo my message to Kiwis is this: it\u2019s one thing to carp and moan, it\u2019s one thing to put out endless press releases and fulminate against problems, but it\u2019s another thing to actually have a plan. They don\u2019t have one; this Government does. I\u2019m proud of this Government and the work that we are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3c4dbc0b042423ab8d54aa6e482ba50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3c4dbc0b042423ab8d54aa6e482ba50\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is my first contribution in the general debate since the sad passing of our colleague Takutai Tarsh Kemp, so I say, hoki wairua mai\u2014may your spirit come back amongst us here today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge Ng\u0101ti Tamak\u014Dpiri, her people of Ng\u0101ti Whitikaupeka and of M\u014Dkai P\u0101tea, who received the country in mourning for our tuahine, for our colleague, and for our friend. I also acknowledge the good people of the township of Taihape, who saw an influx of people, influx of customers, who used it as their base to continue to farewell our tuahine. I want to mention in particular the Taihape rugby club, who welcomed me with open arms, presented me with a tie of Taihape, and wanted me to say, \u201CUp the Hape!\u201D I\u2019m quite proud to wear this tie today, and I wear it to remember my tuahine and the kindness that her people showed to myself, my father, and, of course, everybody who attended the funeral of our colleague. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThat leaves us in a position in T\u0101maki Makaurau where a mandate needs to be sought. Today, we\u2019ve heard in the House from the Government benches what is apparently going on in Auckland and what is going to lift Auckland out of the doldrums. It\u2019s simply not enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat we heard from the Deputy Prime Minister in his general debate today is that he\u2019s proud to say, \u201CNow schools will teach real language.\u201D What does he mean by \u201Creal language\u201D? Well, what he means by \u201Creal language\u201D is the diminishing of te reo M\u0101ori, the language of this land. He diminishes the efforts that many have made to revitalise te reo M\u0101ori. In fact, he also stands in contradiction to the words of his own colleague Erica Stanford, who stands up and praises her own efforts in trying to revitalise and support kura kaupapa in T\u0101maki Makaurau and, indeed, across the country. We\u2019ve heard from the Deputy Prime Minister today that he cares not for the M\u0101ori language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI take the words of my good friend and colleague here Mr Shanan Halbert: \u201CWho is the Deputy Prime Minister in this House to be handing out mana cards to people?\u201D The person with the least amount of mana is handing out mana cards trying to tell us who we are as M\u0101ori and who deserves to be a M\u0101ori, not in this House but indeed right across the country. I think it\u2019s shameful. It\u2019s shameful that when there are real issues impacting families right across this country, the Deputy Prime Minister focuses on something like a \u201Creal language\u201D and diminishes te reo M\u0101ori in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe real issues are clear in this country. There is a cost of living crisis. The fact that this Government has, all of a sudden, turned their attention, not to address the matter, but to attack the Opposition benches on the critical matter of the cost of living crisis shows that they are trying to (1) remediate their failures in the past in dealing with this particular issue, because they promised in the campaign hustings in 2023 that they will deal with the cost of living crisis and they have not; and (2) it shows that they have no ideas to be able to bring us out of this challenge that is affecting so many people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s winter, it is cold, and whether you live in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, in the Far North, or in the Deep South, power prices have gone up exponentially. Our people cannot afford to warm themselves. Usually in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, it\u2019s warm; the other day, it was 4 degrees Celsius, and for somebody from the Bay of Islands, that\u2019s freezing. But I want to be very clear: that impact is felt in every single household\u2014whether you\u2019re a young person, whether you\u2019re a family, or whether you\u2019re our kaum\u0101tua and kuia. Those energy prices are going up and up, and, of course, the wellbeing of our people is going down and down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOur leader, the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins, rightly explained that all of the indicators that show wellbeing in this country\u2014like the cost of living, like the cost of energy\u2014they\u2019re all going up. What\u2019s clear to us, on this side of the House, is that the Government benches know that what is going down is actually their polling, so what do they do? They start the blame game. They blame Labour for everything. They blame us for absolutely everything. Well, I take the words from my 13-year-old daughter, who says, \u201CDad, I\u2019m sick of the blame game because what actually is happening is the lame game.\u201D They\u2019ve come up lame on the cost of living crisis. They\u2019ve come up lame on the extremely high energy prices that have caused heating prices in this country to go up exponentially. They\u2019ve come up lame on opportunities to lift our country into economic prosperity, which we know will be able to help wh\u0101nau right across this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe are in an important race. As we head towards the 2026 election, it\u2019s clear that this Government has no answers, and I can tell them, in the famous words of the Rt Hon Winston Peters, \u201CHelp is on its way.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022db6b1e3845224b51b17ac81645e503f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db6b1e3845224b51b17ac81645e503f3\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister for Trade and Investment):\u003C/span\u003E Well, nobody will be relieved with the suggestion of that sort of help. But we\u2019ll move on to things of greater substance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ECan I say that Chris Bishop said earlier that it\u2019s been a great week for New Zealand infrastructure, and he\u2019s absolutely right. We need to invest in infrastructure that grows the economy, that makes it easier for New Zealanders to move around. The reason that we are building more roads is because very few, certainly not enough, were built under the six years of the previous Labour Government. When you build roads, you get goods and services around more easily. You get goods to the port to get to overseas markets, but it\u2019s fundamentally more simple than that. You free up time for men and women to go about their business more quickly, not be stuck in traffic, to spend more time with their families and a greater quality of family time. That\u2019s a very important outcome when it comes to infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ECan I also say that not only has it been a good week for trade for New Zealand exporters because of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) free-trade agreement coming in, moving through the Parliament; it\u2019s been a very good year for exports and trade and New Zealand exporters. I want to highlight a few of those, because behind every single one of these statistics, it shows greater trade overseas, New Zealanders who are better off, and more jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe EU free-trade agreement entered into force a year ago\u2014many, many months sooner than had been predicted, which we were told when we came to Government. There actually were opportunities for it to enter into force and be ratified by this Parliament before the election. But, sadly, that wasn\u2019t a priority. In that period of time, in the 12 months under that agreement, our exports to the EU have gone up by 28 percent. It\u2019s an extra $1 billion of goods exports for New Zealanders. Sheep meat is up 29 percent\u2014an extra $216 million. Kiwifruit is up almost 70 percent\u2014$316 million more. And, very important, machinery, of which a lot is agricultural machinery, exports are up 104 percent\u2014an additional $173 million for the New Zealand economy. Every day, New Zealand is benefiting from trade agreements and from a Government that was quick to take action to get it in place so they could benefit so very much sooner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe UK free-trade agreement, in place two years now\u2014a 21 percent boost of our exports, up $644\u00A0million; services a 22 percent increase, which is important because although we are known for the highest-quality, safest food to be produced anywhere in the world that consumers all over the place in many countries want, there is a big opportunity in services. Goods exports are up 20 percent; meat a 46 percent increase\u2014almost $500 million more over that period of time. Dairy, a 139 percent increase; fruit and nuts, 52 percent; tech services, 22 percent; and tech-related services are up 50 percent\u2014an extra $221 million for the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EYesterday, the vast majority of parties in this Parliament voted in favour of the UAE Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement (CEPA), and you heard me earlier in question time say that it is the fastest ever negotiated agreement and the highest quality, opening up unprecedented access for New Zealand exporters to a market worth $500 billion. The UAE imports 90 percent of their food. They don\u2019t have the opportunity to grow it for themselves. They have choices as to where they import that food from, and they will now be choosing New Zealand, and whilst our trade compared to many nations is modest\u2014we export a billion dollars to them\u2014I predict that the trade in that market will go up significantly and so very, very quickly, because the two Governments have said that we want to do business with each other and we provide the certainty of a trade agreement for our business communities to grow and to flourish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe NZ-Gulf Cooperation Council agreement concluded last year\u2014there is a $3 trillion opportunity in that region. The size of that economy\u2014the countries are all of significance to New Zealand, but Saudi Arabia certainly is the jewel in the crown. Over 10 years, 99 percent of our exports will be tariff-free and, on entry into force with the CEPA, it will be more than half of what we export, tariff-free. There is a huge opportunity in that market. The Saudis are transitioning their economy away from reliance upon petrochemicals to opportunities and growth in so many fields, from tourism where there are New Zealand companies already there helping them build their infrastructure, giving advice, architects, engineers, construction companies, and, of course, another market where they import 80 percent of their food\u2014a great opportunity for New Zealand exporters. This is a Government that backs those exporters to do well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EFinally, we are negotiating with India. Our second round of negotiation has taken place and we are making great progress. I predict we will have a deal that is meaningful with India before the end of this term of Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224cf65ffff9b14d90b8111cdf193d66c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cf65ffff9b14d90b8111cdf193d66c4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The honourable\u2014sorry. Can I call Rawiri Waititi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u002245ef91143244403baeb7ee2b8552b513\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245ef91143244403baeb7ee2b8552b513\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E I love it when you address me like that, Mr Speaker! Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8de0b6c0e514c5e940366c4f64784c7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you know, you\u2019re obviously an honourable man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b9eedeed026409299e9e6b0438439df\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Peeni, i \u014D mihi ki t\u014D t\u0101tou tuahine i t\u0113nei r\u0101. Tika tonu, kei te mahana tonu tana wairua ki waenga i a t\u0101tou, me te mea hoki tika tonu kia mihi r\u0101 ki t\u014Dna hau k\u0101inga, ki te nui o te iwi i tae ki runga i Taihape, ki \u014Cpaea Marae ki te tangi atu ki a ia. Me te mea hoki kei te tautoko i \u014D poroporoaki ki t\u0113r\u0101 o \u014D t\u0101tou tu\u0101hine i t\u0113nei r\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira, Peeni, ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koe, ki a koutou, Shanan, ki t\u014D whanaunga, ki te tuahine r\u0101. Kei te tangi tonu, kei te mihi tonu, ka poroporoaki tonu t\u0101tou ki a ia i t\u0113nei r\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[Greetings to us all. Thank you, Peeni, for your acknowledgments of our sister today. Very true, her spirit remains warm amongst us, and it is also very appropriate that we acknowledge her home people, to the many people that arrived in Taihape, to \u014Cpaea Marae, to grieve for her. And furthermore I support your eulogies to that particular sister of ours today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EAnd so, Peeni, many greetings to you, to all of you, Shanan, to your relation, to that particular sister. I yet grieve, I yet acknowledge her, and we will continue to eulogise her today.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EJust to acknowledge Takutai Tarsh Kemp in probably the first general debate I\u2019ve taken part in since the passing of Takutai, and just to acknowledge the mihi today by Peeni Henare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EI want to just pick up, following the conclusion of the oral submissions on the Regulatory Standards Bill, on the rhetoric that continues to be pushed by the ACT Party, supported by the Government. Over 95 percent of Aotearoa saw this bill for what it truly was: a power grab by the ACT Party to sell off Aotearoa to their rich mates. So let\u2019s look at that in a deeper sense. Approximately 131,000 submissions; 95 percent of those were against it\u201495 percent of those. That\u2019s telling you that Aotearoa has spoken. But I want to, today, focus on one principle in this bill and what it means for our women, for our senior citizens\u2014our kaum\u0101tua here in Aotearoa\u2014who are not part of the 2 percent that control 50 percent of this country\u2019s wealth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EIn the Regulatory Standards Bill, you will find the following principle: \u201Cevery person is equal before the law\u201D. On the surface, this sounds like a harmless or even noble principle, but while David Seymour and the ACT Party failed to redefine Te Tiriti o Waitangi through the Treaty principles bill, they have succeeded in redefining the meaning of equality. They have convinced the public that sameness and equality are the same thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThis is the mindset that justifies cutting the school lunches programme while giving a $3 billion handout to landlords, because, according to this Government, we all have the same opportunity to become landlords. We will be all treated the same. Whether you are rich or poor, you will be treated as though you are rich. Holding everybody to the same standard, regardless of whakapapa, culture, gender, ability, age, and class, can only lead to inequality. This is particularly true in a country founded on the displacement and manufactured poverty of indigenous people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EI want to address one of the ACT Party members today: Parmjeet Parmar, an Indian migrant MP who is waging war on M\u0101ori, based on race-based scholarships, study spaces, and entrance pathways. I wonder if she has written letters to the universities about the three Indian scholarships: New Zealand Excellence Awards, worth $260,0000; the University of Auckland India High Achievers Scholarship; and the University of Waikato Vice Chancellor\u2019s International Excellence Scholarship for India. This is hypocrisy\u2014this is hypocrisy. If this is about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022885c3ad42b27430b8cb40f2b42c4132b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, you can\u2019t accuse someone of that in this House. So withdraw the comment and find another way to say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f675d99292940b68287ee4603223e09\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: What comment am I withdrawing, Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022284ca84af526458fa2f81fd05302edee\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You cannot refer to someone in the\u2014I\u2019m not going to repeat it. You can\u2019t use that term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224db0191ded7346eeb67a9d9a30e82970\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: So I know what I\u2019m apologising for? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022192c7489e0e84f3abaf00a9cffa0617a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019ve just accused someone of engaging in a practice that has perhaps got a\u2014I\u2019m not going to say it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022604b1ea998514dc29584eeb518f3164c\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: The \u201Ch\u201D word\u2014you can\u2019t say the \u201Ch\u201D word? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5869d810d1c45cabcd41ed3bc0f0584\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014OK? Now, you\u2019ve got it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220272e84a60c64a9896b88555cf071de1\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise, Mr Speaker. But that doesn\u2019t take away from the fact\u2014that doesn\u2019t take away from the fact\u2014that it\u2019s double standards; it\u2019s double standards and it\u2019s r\u016Bpahu\u2014that is r\u016Bpahu. Look, earlier today, women representing over 300,000\u2014this is the other part, so we\u2019ll leave that there for the member to think about it, and I look forward to seeing her letters to the universities addressing that particular issue. But we want to make sure, everybody, that this piece of legislation based on everybody being the same under the law\u2014absolutely rubbish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s absolutely rubbish, and I tell you what: my plea is to our elderly people out there, to those who are on the super\u2014that is under threat. Your super card is under threat because it\u2019s preferential treatment to elderly\u2014it\u2019s preferential treatment to the elderly\u2014and we don\u2019t want to risk those particular issues that ensure that they live with some dignity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWe absolutely support the SuperGold card, and we absolutely support those scholarships that I just mentioned. But it\u2019s double standards when it comes from that party when they\u2019re targeting one race, which is te iwi M\u0101ori\u2014and I want to bring that up, right now. We need to make sure\u2014and I talk to our elderly citizens out there\u2014that they write to Winston Peters. This is his flagship policy. Write to him and ensure that that bill doesn\u2019t go through this House, because it will put everybody on notice who needs the dignity to live. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc890dde210843b9b018d9c85c768ffb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc890dde210843b9b018d9c85c768ffb\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Emotions have been running high in this Parliament since question time, especially on that side of the House, where they don\u2019t like this side pointing out their record on jobs for what it is. This is a Government that has seen 47,000 New Zealanders leave its shores because of joblessness, because of the rising cost of living, and because they can\u2019t save for a home and buy one. This is a Government that will be remembered for 17,000 jobs in the building and construction sector, since they were elected, gone\u2014axed. Where are they now? They\u2019re in Australia, building their roads, their schools, their hospitals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhen this Government crows about its infrastructure pipeline, what jobs are they talking about? They know that in their electorate, not one person is saying, \u201COh, thank you, National, for that infrastructure pipeline that is kicking in in 2026. Oh good, my apprentice, who I\u2019ve had on for two years down at my construction site, whose training I\u2019ve invested in, and who I was promised by that National Government I would be getting the Apprenticeship Boost for in the election\u2014they\u2019re in Perth. Aren\u2019t I lucky that the Government is giving me an infrastructure pipeline in five years to look forward to?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMeanwhile, 20 percent of electricians in this country will be retiring in the next year. With gasfitters and plumbers, the situation is the same: an ageing workforce, that this Government is overseeing, having no one to replace them. And they say they are proud of their pipeline of work. Who will do that work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhen workers are under attack by this Government, it\u2019s this party, the Labour Party, the party of workers, who will be standing up for them. The record of this Government will be that they have overseen the mass exodus of young people, of M\u0101ori, of the women who got into trades under the Labour Government\u2014out and off to Australia. Those important construction workers who came in on technical projects like the City Rail Link and like the Manukau SuperClinic\u2014they have gone. Because it\u2019s this Government\u2019s slogan that \u201CEveryone must go\u201D, they\u2019ve overseen the leaving of all of those people who we desperately need when our economy is back in fit shape, under a Labour Government, to build again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re the party of work, and building and construction is good work. It employs one in 10 Kiwis still, despite the massive cuts that have seen them leaving. More than 17 percent of the construction sector are M\u0101ori, and one in five Auckland workers are involved in the building and construction sector. That means that this Government\u2019s record on the building and construction sector slump, which is heavier and harder than the global financial crisis now, is hitting Auckland particularly hard, and it\u2019s hitting my community of Manurewa. You know what that means? It means that I walk down to the Manurewa town shops with my kids, and two of the four places where we can buy food, we can stop in, we can talk to the community\u2014they have shut up shop, at the moment. They cannot make a living out of it, as bakeries and retailers; they are overseas visiting family because it costs them more to open their doors at the moment. The tradies aren\u2019t coming through, the workers aren\u2019t coming through, and if they do have a job, they don\u2019t have money to spend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat does this Government say? They say, \u201CDon\u2019t worry about it. We\u2019ve got something in the infrastructure pipeline.\u201D It\u2019s stuff that we already knew about; it\u2019s stuff that kicks in in five years\u2019 time. That is not a record to be proud of; that is a record of overseeing a huge downturn in our economy, which will create scarring for a long time. Scarring for who? Scarring for the people who can least afford it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re lucky to have some of those community housing providers at the moment building houses in my area, in South Auckland. I\u2019m told that they are, in fact, the only housing providers that are getting housing consents through the council at the moment, because they are the only ones who can keep the pipeline going\u2014no thanks to this Government\u2014even though its policy is that community housing providers should be providing those houses that my community desperately needs. One in three people in Manurewa live in a K\u0101inga Ora home, and then this Government is saying that they should be providing housing by community housing providers who it\u2019s not helping to continue to build those houses. Why is it not helping? Because it\u2019s not helping with the funding and it\u2019s certainly not helping them with the builders that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis isn\u2019t a plan; this is economic vandalism. It\u2019s hurting the people who cannot save themselves, who cannot create an economic buffer for themselves. The reason why Governments should pay attention to jobs in an economic downturn is because those young people who we need to stay here on our shores, to invest in their education and to learn, those are the people who are most affected by this. They are the people who will leave and we will not get back. They are the people who the Government should be focused on making sure are in employment. They should carry through on their promise about Apprenticeship Boost. They should be making sensible changes to the building sector, so that they have somewhere to learn and something to hope for. But this Government is hands off when it comes to jobs; it\u2019s hands off when it comes to young people, and that will be its record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022928ce59c0995427cb0f5930d7baf3a04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022928ce59c0995427cb0f5930d7baf3a04\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National\u2014West Coast-Tasman):\u003C/span\u003E I want to talk about prudent financial management. We\u2019ve heard a lot of speeches today from around the House about the problems that we have here in New Zealand. That issue has been well canvassed. We all know there are problems in this country, but what we haven\u2019t heard are the solutions from the other side. So I want to talk about some of the solutions that this coalition Government has been undertaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EPrudent financial management of the taxpayer\u2019s money: I want to express why it\u2019s important to me from the West Coast-Tasman electorate. This year\u2019s Budget, as we know, was all about building the New Zealand economy, getting growth back into the economy, creating jobs, and lifting wages so that we can lift the prosperity of the cost of living so that it\u2019s easier on Kiwis. But rather than focusing on the short-term sugar hit\u2014which we all know if we feed our kids a heap of sugar, what comes at the end of that? The crash. So we don\u2019t want the crash. We want long-term investment so that our country is set up for economic recovery and growth into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ENow, things like ensuring we lift the education standards in this country: there is nothing more important than investing in our students in our schools and universities, not only lifting the academic achievement but also building new classrooms so that they\u2019ve got the most modern environment to learn in. Erica Stanford has done an amazing job at cutting in half the cost of building a new classroom. So what does that mean? It means we get twice as much for our money now. We\u2019re getting twice as many classrooms for the same price as what the previous Government was spending. Now, it sets them up when they\u2019ve got a greater education for higher-paying jobs. It gives them more future choices. But we\u2019ve also got to stop the wasteful spending. This Government has done a huge amount in that space in the past, but we do know that we\u2019ve got a lot more to do as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EGrowing our exports: Todd McClay has just expressed the important work that he\u2019s been doing offshore. We don\u2019t build those relationships and we don\u2019t build those trade deals by staying at home and hoping people come knocking on our door. We have to be proactive about getting out there in the international environment and selling our country\u2019s products offshore. And to know now that we have got access to a $500 billion market in the United Arab Emirates by the new trade deal, which was passed yesterday in this House, is a huge step forward, and the Minister has expressed what that means in economic terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBut one of the most exciting opportunities for my electorate of West Coast-Tasman are the plans to double mining exports in 10 years to $3 billion. I\u2019m very happy and enthusiastic about promoting mining, so I was very pleased to hear that, just late last week, another mining consent was granted by the West Coast Regional Council and Westland District Council for Westland Mineral Sands Company to begin mining just south of Hokitika. They\u2019re going to be mining things like ilmenite, garnet, gold, and other rare earth minerals. They\u2019re just below Hokitika\u2014so a great opportunity to create jobs really close to a major town.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe other way that our electorate in West Coast-Tasman is doing well\u2014and what we do well\u2014is water. Hydro generation has huge potential for us on the West Coast. There\u2019s no doubt that New Zealand does not have energy security going forward. I thought it was very rich today to hear from the Leader of the Opposition about how hard it is for our older people, that they have to turn off their heaters because the price of electricity is so high. I\u2019d just like to remind the other side: who wrecked our electricity industry? Who wrecked our energy sector? Does anybody remember Lake Onslow? Lake Onslow was going to be an $18 billion or $16 billion project. So the industry players stepped back and said, \u201CWe don\u2019t need to do this any more; the Government\u2019s going to do it for us.\u201D So we have now got a real gap in our energy infrastructure. No wonder the electricity price is going up, and the same with oil and gas. Thank God for the coalminers who are producing coal on the West Coast, keeping our processing plants running, because one captain\u2019s call wrecked the oil and gas industry. I think this Government has done a fabulous job of laying the foundation stones for the future, and I\u2019m very proud of the effort that West Coast-Tasman has played.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d088ed10-ea30-49bf-892c-b67c5121038f\u0022 data-id=\u0022578d7e43a25c4d9f8d3d9e359de53180\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d088ed10-ea30-49bf-892c-b67c5121038f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022578d7e43a25c4d9f8d3d9e359de53180\u0022\u003EBENJAMIN DOYLE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Otir\u0101 e te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. This Government is failing one in 10 people in Aotearoa living with endometriosis. That\u2019s more than 120,000 people, a figure likely to be much higher due to chronic misdiagnosis and impenetrable access to specialist care. And do not fall for this Government\u2019s rhetoric, which seeks to embed anti-trans and misogynistic ideologies into our healthcare system. Yes, some woman can give birth, but so too can trans and gender diverse people, and the same can be said about those suffering with endometriosis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d088ed10-ea30-49bf-892c-b67c5121038f\u0022\u003EThis is a reproductive health issue, a human right, that has been ignored for too long by this Government. The silence and inaction must end, so whakarongo mai. We have heard, just this week in the House from the Minister of Health, that equity and targeted care based on social determinants like gender, sexuality, and whakapapa do not matter to this Government. The Healthy Futures (Pae Ora) Amendment Bill is just one example of that belief, manifested in legislation. We have seen this consistently during this term: smoke-free laws have been repealed which will disproportionately kill M\u0101ori; rainbow and takat\u0101pui - specific mental health providers have been left high and dry; gender-affirming healthcare guidelines are being unnecessarily delayed; and people in desperate chronic pain needing specialist care for endometriosis are being rejected by the healthcare system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d088ed10-ea30-49bf-892c-b67c5121038f\u0022\u003ESuccessive Governments have allowed entrenched medical misogyny to go unchecked in the healthcare system for too long. It is a disgrace that endometriosis, a condition which only affects women, trans men, and gender diverse people, takes, on average, eight to 10 years to be diagnosed in this country. Let\u2019s not fail to mention the utter dearth of meaningful investment from this Government in research, infrastructure, training, and care that has been called on by people with endometriosis for decades\u2014all this against the stark contrast of the Australian Government, which recently invested $500 million in targeted reproductive care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d088ed10-ea30-49bf-892c-b67c5121038f\u0022\u003EWe must do better. There are countless stories of too many people suffering from the immense pain of endometriosis, pain that goes beyond the physical, that infiltrates mental and spiritual health, that permeates and impacts relationships, that causes extreme stress on financial wellbeing and employment opportunities. I\u2019ve heard from women who are told by their doctors that they just have painful periods; stories of trans men being turned away from care due to cis normative medical practices. Stories of gender diverse folk being ignored, erased, and humiliated by a system which fails to recognise their existence. If the option of treatment does eventuate, the rights of patients are often fundamentally undermined by a patriarchal system which prioritises hypothetical conception over a patient\u2019s bodily autonomy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d088ed10-ea30-49bf-892c-b67c5121038f\u0022\u003EIt has been five years since the Hon Julie Anne Genter shepherded Aotearoa\u2019s first best-practice guidelines for the treatment of endometriosis\u2014a groundbreaking step at the time\u2014but which has been totally disregarded since, with no attempts to review or invest in the next steps to continue the urgently needed progress in endometriosis healthcare. It is time to listen to the experts and community; they know what\u2019s best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d088ed10-ea30-49bf-892c-b67c5121038f\u0022\u003EEndometriosis New Zealand chief executive Tanya Cooke recently said that the Government needs to take up the call for a national endometriosis action plan that can provide a coordinated response to endometriosis in New Zealand. We must also address the legislative gap which fails to recognise endometriosis as an official disability. By doing this, people suffering from these severe health impacts and the insidious discrimination that it should not\u2014but disturbingly does\u2014entail, would be guaranteed rights and protections, which they are currently left without.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d088ed10-ea30-49bf-892c-b67c5121038f\u0022\u003ETo continue a regime of under resourcing and apathy towards meaningful improvements to care for people with endometriosis is simply cruel and inhumane, but this Government has proven it does not care about equity in healthcare, it does not care about trans and gender diverse lives, and it does not care about the reproductive health rights of all people in Aotearoa\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e89bf556c4f74b4aa41c912c4b8de64e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e89bf556c4f74b4aa41c912c4b8de64e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022 data-id=\u002212af0e3e86bb4a91aa155be52ed14bca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212af0e3e86bb4a91aa155be52ed14bca\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E Koinei te w\u0101 tuatahi kua t\u016B ahau ki roto i t\u0113nei Whare n\u014D muri mai i te hingatanga o t\u014D t\u0101tou hoa aroha, a Takutai Tarsh Kemp, n\u0101 reira i t\u0113nei w\u0101 ka huri \u014Dku whakaaro ki t\u014Dna wairua, te wairua i \u016B, i noho p\u016Bmau ki te rangim\u0101rie. Ahakoa te kaupapa, ahakoa ng\u0101 h\u014Dh\u0101 me ng\u0101 piki me ng\u0101 heke o t\u0113nei Whare, k\u0101ore ia i ngaro i te ng\u0101kau mahitahi. E tino mokemoke ana t\u0101tou ki a ia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EMoe mai r\u0101, Takutai, i te korowai mahana o \u014D tupuna. Ka maumahara tonu m\u0101tou ki a koe. Ia w\u0101 ka whai m\u0101tou kia p\u016B\u0101wai ng\u0101 hapori, ia w\u0101 ka rapu m\u0101tou i te huarahi kia kotahi ai, ia w\u0101 ka t\u016B m\u0101tou i t\u0113nei Whare, \u0101, ka taupatupatu ai ng\u0101 whakaaro me ng\u0101 mahere kia pakari ai te wairua o ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau katoa. M\u0101 m\u0101tou koe e maumahara tonu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E[This is the first time that I have stood in this House following the passing of our beloved friend Takutai Tarsh Kemp, and so, at this time, my thoughts return to her spirit, a spirit that was resolute and remained steadfast to peace. Regardless of the subject, despite the frustration and the ups and downs of this House, she never lost her collaborative heart. We miss her a lot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003ESleep well, Takutai, within the warm mantle of your ancestors. We will remember you every time we pursue the flourishing of communities, every time we search for the path of unity, every time we stand in this House and debate ideas and plans so that the soul of all families may be robust. We will remember you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EOn that day at Takutai\u2019s marae, I was welcomed by a handsome MP wearing a Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori hat. He was seated beside Rawiri Waititi. Peeni Henare was his name. I caught a glimpse again, that day, of what this House is possible of, and of what Takutai brought. I thought it was a classic kupu whakarite\u2014a classic metaphor\u2014of what it was that she sought to foster in every interaction that I had with her, and so I want to acknowledge her today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EI want to stay on that theme. I want to turn my attention back to a conversation that I had that same week. It was with my Youth MP, Madeleine \u2019One\u2019one, who has been here today with her fellow Tongan youth leaders from Onehunga High School. They were here earlier; then, they were watching these speeches from the Labour caucus room\u2014I have some work to do, clearly. Right now, they\u2019ve had to catch their shuttle to the airport, so, hopefully, they\u2019ll be watching this later on. I wanted to mihi to them and acknowledge the passion that they have for our community. M\u0101l\u014D e lelei \u2018a e f\u0101nau ako m\u0101\u2018oni\u2018oni mo e kau taki \u2018i he kaha\u2018u\u2026.lototo\u2018a These young leaders carry loto to\u2019a - humble hearts and a dream to tautua to serve their community, as Takutai did. They are stepping up in debate, public service, and leadership, ko e \u2018ofa, ko e lotu pea mo e ng\u0101ue, love, faith, and action. They are all alive in them, and it gives me some hope. I want to acknowledge the amazing leadership opportunities and development that is offered for so many young people at Onehunga High School, as it is in every one of our schools in Maungakiekie. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EA couple of months ago I had the opportunity to be interviewed by a couple of young year 4 students from Onehunga Primary School who were doing a leadership project. Franco and Max were absolutely delightful. They asked such thoughtful, fantastic questions. I was tempted, at the time, to bring them to Parliament to coach MPs\u2014perhaps not in the patsy questions. One of their questions was: what do you most appreciate about being a leader? I explained how much I loved the opportunity to turn the dial for people in our community on a daily basis. Those moves may not shift the course of the whole country, but for that person or for that wh\u0101nau, it means everything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003ETheir next question was a more challenging one. It said: what do you most struggle with about being a leader? What do you most struggle with? I think I winced at the time. I said to them: \u201CThere are so many things that I wish I could change, both here and overseas, that are simply outside of my authority.\u201D It\u2019s something I\u2019ve been reflecting on a lot lately\u2014the limits of influence, particularly with so much injustice in our world. I told Franco and Max that wise leadership includes accepting those limits even when you wish it were otherwise, focusing each day on what you can do, and that\u2019s why I celebrate the kind of leadership that\u2019s fostered at our schools in Maungakiekie, at our charities in Maungakiekie, and our businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EA big shout-out tomorrow for the Onehunga Business Awards\u2014because I\u2019m on duty here, sadly I\u2019ll miss it, but what a night it will be, celebrating the work, the care, the sacrifices that our local businesses make to create jobs, deliver services, and invest in our community. Those businesses, those community organisations, those schools, those wh\u0101nau: they are the backbone of our community. They are the ones that call us to seek justice, to work well together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EKia tau te rangim\u0101rie ki a t\u0101tou, kia wh\u0101ia atu te k\u014Drero tahi, kia wh\u0101ia atu te whakap\u016B\u0101wai o t\u014D t\u0101tou hapori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E[Let peace settle upon us, let us pursue discourse, let us pursue the flourishing of our community.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EM\u0101l\u014D \u2018aupito, kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbc85480884a4e769676ff34fd94af34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbc85480884a4e769676ff34fd94af34\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Since this Government has come into power, we have seen attack after attack after attack on workers, not just with the loss of jobs that we\u2019re seeing just getting bigger and bigger all the time but with an attack on workers\u2019 conditions, an attack on workers\u2019 wages, and an attack on the rights of workers. I know that 6 May brought one of the darkest days and the biggest attacks on workers in this country, particularly those women who have been fighting for so long to ensure that they have a fair chance at their pay equity claims. That is the day this Government announced they were going to gut the pay equity schemes within this country. That was the day they absolutely gutted that not only by changing pay equity in the country but by absolutely cancelling out the 33 active claims that were in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EToday, we saw hundreds of people once again gather together on the grounds of Parliament, out the front, on the lawn, to see the handover of the petition \u201CProtect Pay Equity - stop scrapping equal pay claims and law\u201D, which 93,924 people have signed since 6 May. What an incredible number of people to sign a petition in such a short time. Those people are sending a clear message that New Zealanders will not accept the Government\u2019s gutting of pay equity, and they are fighting back. They are very angry, and they told their anger out there today. In fact, we heard from young people as well saying how demoralising it was when this National-led Government didn\u2019t consult anyone around their changes. They made the changes under urgency and wiped 33 claims\u2014active claims\u2014off the books, forcing a law change that takes money out of women\u2019s pockets. And what did we hear from that Government? What did we hear from key Ministers, like the Minister for Women? Crickets. Absolutely nothing. They were not prepared to stand up and fight for what was right for women and workers in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThis was just another blow for women, who are already suffering under the cost of living under this Government. We know the difference that those pay equity claims make. We have heard about that difference, time and time again, and I want people in this House to think about people they know\u2014and I\u2019m sure that every single person has somebody they know\u2014and how those claims have made a difference in their lives and the lives of their wh\u0101nau. We heard today, out there, about the care and support workers\u2014the people who had the first successful claim, with Kristine Bartlett back in 2017\u2014who fought for that successful claim through the courts. We heard about the difference that that made, and we heard about the difference that it makes to their wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI have a personal interest in that. I have a disabled sister, and I have met the people who have given her support over the years. These are the people who support our most vulnerable, in their darkest days sometimes. Those people help my sister, who I love dearly, to lead a life of mana and a life of dignity. Why is it that we, in a great country such as Aotearoa New Zealand, fight against them having the pay equity that they deserve? Why is that Government prepared to pay them, and keep them being paid, less than their male counterparts that do work of equal value? That is what it comes down to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EToday\u2019s petition shows that people in this country know women are not worth less. They are not worth less than men, and the people who signed that petition today gave a very clear message to this Government. I want to acknowledge that message and say it here again today. This is only the beginning. We will not rest until every working woman in Aotearoa New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002288866cf431b04b5aac42c098ad384881\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288866cf431b04b5aac42c098ad384881\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00223557fb10c0dc4ad9aac779b6538241e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223557fb10c0dc4ad9aac779b6538241e5\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. This Government, we have seen scrambling in the past week, because the reality is that the decisions that they have made have led to a much longer and deeper recession, and huge cuts in the construction sector because of the large number of cancelled projects. While they\u2019re out there promising that they\u2019re putting money into infrastructure and that\u2019s going to create jobs, the reality is that, overall, they have cut more than they are going to invest in. Most of the projects they announced last Sunday have been funded for years\u2014literally since the previous Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s look at the numbers. Here\u2019s the reality: an Infrastructure New Zealand survey found that 65 percent of firms have reduced staff over the past 12 months. I\u2019ve got a graph here that everyone can look at. Make sure you can see this. This is a year-on-year comparison of insolvencies in key industries from 2024 to 2025. The orange is 2025. You can see the orange is going up in most sectors. That means there\u2019s more insolvencies in 2025 than there were in 2024. This is, in large part, due to the Government\u2019s response since they came into power. But the really large orange line here is the construction sector. This is January to March. In June of 2025, construction firms made up one-third of all company liquidations. As we can see, that has been increasing over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Government came in, and they say, \u201COh, we want cross-party support. We want cross-party consensus on infrastructure.\u201D, and yet what they\u2019re asking for is for the Opposition to support their 30-year strategy on infrastructure when, in fact, they cancelled a bunch of long-term projects that should have had cross-party support. What\u2019s the perfect example? Right after they came in, they put a whole bunch of projects on hold from the Ministry of Education\u2014hundreds of school projects. In the end, over 100 were confirmed cancelled. K\u0101inga Ora: 212 projects. Recently, 212 projects were confirmed cancelled. That amounts to 3,479 homes at a time when we have a housing crisis and the private sector is not in a position to be investing. While it\u2019s the perfect time for the Government itself to be investing in housing, they cancelled housing. I know a builder in my own electorate who said he had $70 million worth of work over the next five years lined up, pulled out from under the rug or, in some cases, delayed by a year and a half even when those projects are carrying on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EEverybody knows about the ferries being cancelled, and supposedly this is fiscal responsibility. It\u2019s absolute rubbish. Those ferries are a lifeline. They are fundamentally critical infrastructure between the North and South Islands, which now we have a whole lot of uncertainty for the next few years while we don\u2019t even have a contract for new ferries. But it is also the case that construction firms, engineers, and others were all put out of work when the upgrades to the wharfs were unceremoniously cancelled. Could it have been reviewed? Could perhaps there have been some savings found? I would say yes. That would have been a much better deal than cancelling the ferries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Government cancelled the transport choices programme. Now, this removed safety infrastructure from the vicinity of 101 schools around the country. It hurt jobs, and it hurt safety around schools. Honestly, if there was going to be cross-party consensus about anything in this House, I would think that safety around schools would be one of those things, and yet the Government cancelled projects that would have improved safety around 101 schools, and then, of course, they forced local councils to put the speed limit up around schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI could go on. Obviously, the Dunedin Hospital rebuild was scaled back. Three waters: we couldn\u2019t get all the figures on the three waters projects, but that three waters change had a huge impact on a lot of civil construction that had been lined up for the past year and a half. Now, coincidentally, we have parts of the country who are being told they have to be on a boil notice, potentially for years, while they wait for the infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, the reality is that there are solutions, and the Green Party is talking about the solutions. We\u2019ve put out a fully costed Green Budget that shows how, if we had a fairer tax system, we could actually address our infrastructure challenges, address climate change, ensure that everyone in New Zealand has a warm, dry home, and invest in smart infrastructure like rail. There is an alternative. New Zealanders are smart enough to see through the PR spin and stunts of this Government, who largely represents, and is funded by, oligarchs, the richest of the rich just looking to get richer. The idea that they care about New Zealanders and the long-term future of this country is a joke. New Zealanders, it is showing in the most recent poll.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221694d459bf4e4795898115419810eb58\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fb80a36d6b984c5c8d33f74cd5737d5f\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002235a49d781b794b28b1e98c93a90b7731\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235a49d781b794b28b1e98c93a90b7731\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the sitting of the House today be extended into tomorrow morning for:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003Efurther consideration in committee of the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003Ethe second reading of:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Ethe Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Ethe Responding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Ethe Broadcasting (Repeal of Advertising Restrictions) Amendment Bill; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Ethe States Amendment Bill;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ethe committee stage of:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Ethe Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Ethe Regulatory Systems (Primary Industries) Amendment Bill; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ethe second reading of:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Ethe Policing (Police Vetting) Amendment Bill; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Ethe Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b77ba6dbc5db431083813792f91a87de\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022007d87b3d834483fab587ab85c7ec176\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022237c6916d624417c8f9b3c4c97d1a5ee\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d088ed10-ea30-49bf-892c-b67c5121038f\u0022 data-id=\u00226f7fe8f907064434a9b00f1f8008c30e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d088ed10-ea30-49bf-892c-b67c5121038f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f7fe8f907064434a9b00f1f8008c30e\u0022\u003EBENJAMIN DOYLE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I seek leave to record 15 votes for the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand in opposition to the first reading of the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00220993cc80f9574edcaac46d75ed9b4150\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220993cc80f9574edcaac46d75ed9b4150\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none\u2014so noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224c344cce9fba40ca821deb792612d8dd\u0022\u003EBudapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022558377ef0c2e45c5a8189fe55f9ca0af\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002225c84660394c401897b2cad71943d6e7\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments relating to investigatory tools (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00225f431ee5ff8f47098ac424a119b26664\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f431ee5ff8f47098ac424a119b26664\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill. When we last considered this bill, we were debating Part 1, which is the debate on clauses 3 to 53, \u201CAmendments relating to investigatory tools\u201D, and Schedules 1 and 2. Once again, the question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00226ae53fbbaea044649cb42596836b2e15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ae53fbbaea044649cb42596836b2e15\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I was wondering whether the Minister would jump to her feet, given that a number of questions and clarifications were sought prior to this debate being interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAs I prefaced in my earlier remarks, we really just want to work through the legislation and raise some issues and some clarifications\u2014really, for the record, and to make clear where the line is drawn in terms of this important piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI guess the next point I had was\u2014and I was referring to the amended section numbers in Part 1, new section 79I, which talks about preservation directions and the duration of those directions. It says that they stand for 20 days\u2014and that\u2019s just 20 ordinary days, not working days; a relatively short period\u2014but then it\u2019s got, in subsection (2), that where an application for a production order is made, it continues until that is determined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I guess my point there: firstly, is 20 days long enough? This might seem a bit strange\u2014is 20 days long enough? And then, until the application is determined, there\u2019s actually an indeterminate length of time. My question is: is it appropriate for it to simply exist for an indeterminate length of time, particularly when a production order can in fact go on for quite a long period of time if it\u2019s challenged? So that\u2019s my first point\u2014I\u2019ll see how many I can squeeze in; I\u2019ll keep an eye on the Minister just in case she wants to leap up because something\u2019s just occurred to her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other one is reviews. There is a preservation order that\u2019s made, and the entity against which that order has been made has a right of review. I guess this is a rule-of-law point. The review is by exactly the same entity. It\u2019s against the commissioner who made the decision and also reviews the decision, which does seem very odd. You would usually expect to go one up, which means that this is an entirely administrative discretion, and I would have thought that you\u2019d want some independent oversight. Now, I guess if you don\u2019t like the review, you can go to the High Court by way of judicial review, but that seems very heavy-handed and quite a wasteful approach, when a much more obvious approach would simply be to have a kind of quick-fire right of appeal to the District Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI also note that although the review is notionally by the commissioner, the provision, in fact, makes it very clear that it\u2019ll be a delegate\u2014so it won\u2019t even be the commissioner him- or herself who decides that review; it\u2019ll be some delegate, which really buries it into the organisation and makes it highly administrative in nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI see I\u2019ve got a minute left and the Minister is not yet ready to respond to these insightful points, and I guess my next question, then, is about new section 79N, which is about pathway information. In particular, when it says that you\u2019re required to produce pathway information, it\u2019s got to be produced in usable form, and the person who\u2019s asked for it has to assist any person nominated by the chief executive. Now, I haven\u2019t had a lot to do with these kinds of investigations, but I do know that it can take considerable resources to do this kind of electronic forensic work, and it doesn\u2019t come cheap. So if you\u2019ve got a provider, and not all these providers are large, some of them are quite small\u2014and that\u2019s a good thing\u2014who bears the burden of this? Because this is an enforcement obligation, and the entity who happens to be communicating this data is being asked to present it in usable form and to render assistance. So it\u2019s a compulsion to, essentially, provide a service and to assist in presenting and developing that evidence. I see my time has expired. I\u2019ll save my further questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022df09887024184ba3b6e80444ba139027\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df09887024184ba3b6e80444ba139027\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I am not sure, just before the break, there were already some questions posed, and I assume they\u2019re still in the mix somewhere with the Minister or the Minister\u2019s team. But I\u2019d like to go to clause 10, if I may, new section 64A, \u201CRecord of information obtained, made, or generated by assistant\u201D. This clause required anyone assisting in a surveillance operation to either destroy or hand over any information they record during that process. Speaking to new section 64A(2)(a), where the destructions of records are allowed, would the Minister consider whether an exemption or notification process where the data concerned M\u0101ori, including iwi, to ensure opportunity for data sovereignty? That\u2019s one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EAnd if I can just quickly go to the second: will there be provisions, or can the Minister assure that there\u2019ll be provisions, that ensure culturally significant information or data is not destroyed without consultation or oversight? These questions are on the back of that there\u2019s very little recognition or, in our eyes, rigour as to how M\u0101ori data will be treated in any case. So the first challenge, I guess: should you or would you collect and for what good reason? And then, once you\u2019ve got it, should you or could you destroy it and for what good reason? So there are my first questions in the first piece earlier this morning\u2014posed the first set\u2014and this is the second for now. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022466\u0022 data-id=\u00227e0438efb869499d92d43dec05e3a603\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e0438efb869499d92d43dec05e3a603\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Like colleagues, I\u2019m just recalling that there are some questions that potentially haven\u2019t yet been answered by the Minister. I think the significant one for me is the one that was raised by the Privacy Commissioner in relation to the commissioner being not necessarily or not the appropriate individual to grant a preservation direction and that that should be covered by judicial oversight. Just a question about whether that submission by the Privacy Commissioner was considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EGoing to what is section 79C, inserted by clause 18, that sets out the form and content of applications that the commissioner would look at. It sets out a number of requirements, including that it has to be in writing\u2014and I\u2019ll speak further to that in a moment\u2014but also the content of the application itself and a certification from the individual making the application that everything is true and correct. My question is in relation to the addition of new documents or new information within that one preservation direction and whether that is contemplated as a possibility. I haven\u2019t noted anything specific in the primary legislation regarding that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EMy concern is the following section\u2014so that\u2019s new section 79D\u2014which allows the commissioner to accept applications made orally. There are a number of requirements for that to happen, but it would just seem to me that the evidence in that case would not be as reliable as if the individual had to go through the rigour of complying with all of new section 79C(2)(a) to (g), which are a number of criteria. So I think the question really is: what is the rigour around allowing that oral application? Is that a doorway for what would have been additions to the initial application being heard orally as separate applications; or is it considered that if there was truly a second application, that that would also need to be done in writing as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u00225629a07bdae34bf29bd92e36b178e765\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225629a07bdae34bf29bd92e36b178e765\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister of State for Trade and Investment):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. I just want to respond to the questions raised by Vanushi Walters, on behalf of the Minister responsible. I believe the questions were around the Privacy Commissioner and the Police Commissioner and the variances between issuing orders rather than the judiciary. I\u2019m advised that they did consider the commissioner\u2019s suggestion but ultimately decided it would undermine the effectiveness of the bill. As is patently obvious, the bill grants the power to issue those preservation directions to the Commissioner of Police because it is likely to be the faster option, as opposed to the independent judicial authorisation. The point of that preservation direction, I\u2019m advised, is for the rapid protection of evidence, and any delay, obviously, in issuing a preservation direction will subsequently have an impact. Also, I\u2019m advised that the Law Commission\u2019s 2017 review of the Search and Surveillance Act recommended that the power to grant a preservation direction does sit with the Commissioner of Police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EIn response to some of the questions raised by the good Dr Duncan Webb around preservation directions not being conducted independently, I\u2019ve touched on this a little bit, but anyone subject to a preservation direction is entitled to seek a review of the decision by a delegate of the Commissioner of Police, and that delegate cannot be the person who issued the original direction. A review by a delegate of the Commissioner of Police will be significantly faster than the alternatives, like the right of appeal in a District Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9626c0e84984a809d6273ca637dd7c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9626c0e84984a809d6273ca637dd7c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just expanding on\u2014certainly not repeating\u2014Vanushi Walters\u2019 point about oral applications, which are quite unusual. I note in the provision she referred to, there\u2019s a requirement on, I think, the commissioner to record the grounds and so on. But my question is: why wasn\u2019t consideration given to a kind of after-the-event written application? That would be quite normal, because there are urgent situations where you\u2019d want to run down, get your preservation order, serve it, but then go back and put on the record, in a sworn or affirmed way, the evidence upon which that was decided, because if, of course, it\u2019s going to be challenged, you need to see it there very clearly. That would, in fact, be a lot more reliable and more authenticated than simply recording what was said in what\u2019s, essentially, a meeting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EHowever, my next point is about the retention of documents. Obviously, it\u2019s important that the documents are retained, but the obligation on the Police to retain documents\u2014in new section 79W, inserted by clause 17, on page 25 and over to 26\u2014is actually quite short: it\u2019s the date of completion of any proceedings, or the date that is two years after the date on which the application was first retained, which, in terms of retention of legal records where there might be some suggestion of misbehaviour or poor conduct, seems to be quite short. So I\u2019m very curious\u2014and they\u2019re electronic records, right? So my question there is: why so short?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThen, my next question relates to new section 79Y, inserted by clause 17, which is on annual reporting. Look, very good\u2014I\u2019m really supportive of there being annual reporting. But my question is: why is it not the case that the number of orders made\u2014it doesn\u2019t appear to be reported. I might have that wrong, and your officials might be able to point me to the clause there. I think the thing you want to know most, because this is an invasive order for preservation of documents, is why is there no requirement to say, \u201CWe have issued a thousand of these\u201D\u2014which I hope we won\u2019t; that would seem a little extraordinary\u2014or simply a hundred? That would certainly, in terms of public scrutiny, give some assurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThen, I want to ask a question about new section 88B, inserted by clause 19. We\u2019re moving now into foreign enforcement authorities, so this is foreign countries saying, \u201CI want to know some stuff.\u201D, and we need an order\u2014a preservation direction\u2014to find it out. And 88B sets the threshold, and it says that \u201Can investigation has commenced in relation to a serious offence\u201D. Now, that seems to me to be a very loose term, and it may be that that has a meaning and is defined clearly somewhere in the legislation, but it doesn\u2019t appear to be. Elsewhere in the bill, it talks about offences of imprisonment of two years or offences of imprisonment of seven years. You can argue where the line should be drawn, but it\u2019s clear\u2014or some of them actually name the offences. But simply to say \u201Can investigation has commenced\u201D\u2014which is, of course, a low bar, right?\u2014\u201Cin relation to a serious offence\u201D. So what does that mean? That\u2019s my question there. And that\u2019s quite an important one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut, arguably, not as important\u2014if I\u2019ve got time, and I might ask the indulgence for another 30 seconds if I need it\u2014as where it says that the commissioner may refuse to grant an application on a number of grounds, including where the offence is of a political character, and other things. But it doesn\u2019t do things like, I think, what my friend called \u201Cdual criminality\u201D, where the offence is not in fact an offence in New Zealand. It might be an offence we\u2019d find repugnant\u2014homosexual crimes, for example. If someone\u2019s investigating homosexual crimes in a foreign country, and we think that\u2019s a terrible kind of idea, do we have the ability to say no, essentially on public interest grounds\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d894950eceef4660a0eb242003abe41f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aed55e8c3664d44ab3317ee7f7738ec\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: May I have another 30 seconds, Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7ea6b0883714efa8e10b17b0ba06efd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Dr Duncan Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dd93669eb8c49dca9c210cf5187d9e0\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019ll sit down when I make this final point. The other one is the death penalty. If someone\u2019s investigating a serious offence and the punishment is death, is it the case that the commissioner can refuse to cooperate on that basis? So I did say I\u2019d sit down in 30 seconds, and that was only 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022cedcd1ee476944c5a3375d1a743eb85c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cedcd1ee476944c5a3375d1a743eb85c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister of State for Trade and Investment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I did want to just respond to a couple of those questions around new section 88A, inserted by clause 19, and the \u201Cserious offence\u201D and whether or not it is subject to a threshold test and/or, indeed, the comments raised around dual criminality and whether or not serious offence is tested against what we deem as an offence here in New Zealand. Well, to confirm to the member: the purpose of the preservation direction is the rapid preservation of evidence. The more matters that have to be considered, obviously, the slower the process will be. Dual criminality\u2014to respond directly to that question\u2014will be considered before any actual evidence leaves New Zealand, alongside those broader human rights considerations. Indeed, I can confirm that the Attorney-General has vetted this bill for consistency with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and hasn\u2019t identified any inconsistencies. But further to that, under New Zealand\u2019s existing mutual assistance legislation, a request for assistance can be refused due to a lack of dual criminality, but it does not have to be. That is the existing law, and this bill does not change that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00225173d4ca620544d2a1771d9de84802e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225173d4ca620544d2a1771d9de84802e1\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b55f50b30b4243c9970b71b324cf2cab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b55f50b30b4243c9970b71b324cf2cab\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re a long way from that I think, Mr Rutherford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00223dda9d772fb94df7a7214aa7e399d716\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dda9d772fb94df7a7214aa7e399d716\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just wanted to check before I take my call fully\u2014I\u2019ve had a quick look for the regulatory impact statement; if they\u2019re able to direct us to whether that\u2019s available, that would be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe point I would like to make in relation to this bill is the fact that it also amends quite important legislation, which is the Search and Surveillance Act, and also the new decision-making powers in relation to new offences in the Search and Surveillance Act. What these new powers, effectively, do is they create a limitation on the right of freedom of expression, and the bill grants the chief executive of the relevant law enforcement agency the power to make decisions about whether or not to lift that obligation. It does note that there are only limited circumstances in which the chief executive can decline to lift that obligation. I\u2019m interested to know from the Minister what consultation was done in relation to that, because they are quite significant powers. I do note that we\u2019ve got a section 7 report there, and that\u2019s great, but the bill also does create new decision-making powers within the Search and Surveillance Act by giving the Commissioner of Police the ability to issue preservation directions. So if I understand that correctly, it means if a review of the decision to use a direction is sought, the bill also gives responsibility for conducting this review to the commissioner. So that sits with him as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo as a safeguard, the bill contains a delegation requirement to ensure that the decision is not able to be reviewed by the same person who made it. My question is\u2014after my first one; my second question\u2014given the nature of the preservation directions, whether or not these powers are likely to involve decisions that have a significant impact on rights and whether the Minister is satisfied that that checks and balances are satisfactory, particularly if you\u2019re in situations where you\u2019ve got the Commissioner of Police making that direction, and who\u2019s going to be reviewing that. As the bill amends decision-making powers in the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act so that only a High Court judge can issue warrants under that Act\u2014and so, effectively, this creates new decision-making powers to issue those production orders and surveillance warrants. These powers all have the potential to engage the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EHowever, the point is that that decision-making power to the High Court creates a significant safeguard for the exercise of power, and it means that the ability to authorise search powers under the mutual assistance legislation is more constrained than similar search powers under the Search and Surveillance Act. So it will be interesting just to hear from the Minister whether she\u2019s satisfied with that process in terms of the significance of the power and how those checks will be operating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFinally, I would just like to touch on the provision creating a new decision-making power in the mutual assistance legislation by enabling the High Court to enable a judge to lift that obligation to notify affected parties before evidential material can be collected or sent offshore. So it\u2019s, essentially, like a heads-up, and I\u2019m assuming that that\u2019s in place because it will be an investigation with police, and it\u2019s a sensitive area, so there\u2019s an ability for that to be lifted and to give that heads-up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAs the obligation has been included within the bill in response to a Supreme Court finding that notification is necessary to protect rights, dispensing of that requirement will naturally also have an impact on rights, in addition to limiting the decision of the High Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo, in those areas, I\u2019m really interested to hear back from the Minister in terms of her satisfaction with where those checks and balances are, given there\u2019s some pretty significant new powers that are being enabled through this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u0022302b342fc3ea45e9a60ffc482b12a29c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022302b342fc3ea45e9a60ffc482b12a29c\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m wanting to talk to Part 3, Subpart 2, and looking at, specifically, new section 88B, the \u201CApplications for preservation directions\u201D. I just want to point out that this is different to the new section 79B around preservation directions that previous members have spoken to; even though it says, \u201Cpreservation directions\u201D, it is a different part of the legislation that we want to scrutinise here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI\u2019m wanting to look at that new section 88B and understand why it uses mandatory language, requiring a constable to apply for a preservation direction upon receiving a request, and what that actually means\u2014that mandatory use of the preservation direction\u2014whether any discretions are in place, and what exists in practice there. We\u2019re wanting to make sure that this legislation is in line with our own laws and the way we do things here in New Zealand. So it\u2019s really important that we understand what this sort of mandatory language actually means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESpeaking to, again, that new section 88B in Subpart 2\u2014and this is on page 30\u2014can the Minister please explain what oversight mechanisms exist to ensure that applications for preservation directions under that new section 88B are proportionate and consistent with privacy and human rights standards? Now, I know that the Minister has acknowledged that the Auditor-General has said that this bill is in keeping with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, which is wonderful\u2014we all want to make sure that human rights are upheld. What I really want to understand is: what is in place to ensure that that proportionate and consistent application of this legislation is in line with privacy and human rights standards? We know that surveillance is a big topic, and New Zealanders really want to know how this will affect their lives and the lives of their friends and neighbours. We know that there are countries that are over-surveilled, and we don\u2019t want to join in that wave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EStill speaking to that Subpart 2, new section 88B: can the Minister explain the intention behind new section 88B(2)(b), and whether any independent verification is required before relying on information supplied by a foreign enforcement agency? Of course, verifying evidence is a really important part of upholding truth and justice; it\u2019s something that, here in New Zealand, we take really seriously. When a piece of information comes in, when evidence comes in, when there is an accusation, we make sure that that evidence is verified. So if the Minister could just engage with this question about whether there is any independent verification, that would be wonderful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EBefore the break\u2014before lunch, when we started committee of the whole House\u2014I did ask the Minister questions around Part 3, Subpart 1, and the interpretation of new section 88A, which is on page 28, which haven\u2019t been answered yet. It would be wonderful if we could get some clarity around the term \u201Cserious offence\u201D and whether there is a threshold test for the proportionality around that. Thank you so much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u00223d6dea37bbee4a8fbd7e7b81af74439b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d6dea37bbee4a8fbd7e7b81af74439b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister of State for Trade and Investment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m going to wrap those two questions from both members from the Labour Party and the Green Party together, if I may, but just to respond to the last question first by Kahurangi Carter. She hadn\u2019t quite made it to the House, but I did cover, in my previous response, about whether serious offences are tested against what we deem an offence in New Zealand, so I feel like I have covered that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThe questions around how the bill protects human rights\u2014first up, the expectation of this Government is that all bilateral agreements are assessed against New Zealand\u2019s human rights law before we enter into them, and that our Parliament itself plays an integral role in that process, particularly in its undertaking of parliamentary treaty examinations before New Zealand enters into any of these international arrangements, as it did with the 2021 Budapest Convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ETo respond to some of the questions raised by the Hon Ginny Andersen, to confirm, existing protections in the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act (MACMA) and the Search and Surveillance Act are extended to new powers in this particular bill, and that includes provisions in the MACMA to refuse assistance to a foreign country if their request appears to be aimed at persecuting\u2014I was going to say prosecuting, but persecuting\u2014someone due to the likes of race, ethnic origin, sex, sexual orientation, relation, nationality, political opinions, etc, and then also to confirm that surveillance device warrants and production orders will only be issued under MACMA if the existing requirements for these warrants under the current Search and Surveillance Act are met.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0180f00fea64afc90cbeb03aa2d59e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0180f00fea64afc90cbeb03aa2d59e7\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Matarau\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. Just re-reading one of the obvious expectations of the Budapest Convention, which is the harmonisation of laws, it\u2019s ironic, given that there\u2019s about as much harmony in Aotearoa New Zealand across laws, which I would compare it to Heaven and Hell. So we\u2019ve got a long way to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ELet me, if I can, take you to clause 12. In fact, if I may, just before that, the questions that I posed earlier today around surveillance and traffic data, I\u2019m keen to get some kind of a response from the Minister in the chair, please, if I can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to take you to clause 12, \u201CSection 71 amended\u201D. This clause sets out the information that enforcement officers must provide when requesting access to documents from someone, including for ongoing access. It always makes M\u0101ori really nervous, just saying\u2014but you can only know that if you read about that, if you understand that, and only then can you appreciate it, but clearly that\u2019s not the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ECan the Minister confirm why after clause 12(2), there is no consideration of Te Tiriti obligations or the potential impact on M\u0101ori data sovereignty before applying for an order? Again, I mean, I emphasised it this morning, and probably in every conversation\u2014it must be repeated in the House, for the House to understand what the founding documentation means in every possible way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThen, let me take you to clause 13, \u201CSection 75 amended (Form and content of production order)\u201D. This clause updates what a production order must say, especially when it\u2019s asking for documents to be handed over more than once over a period of time. There are so many comments that I want to make to that, but I\u2019m just going to move on\u2014just to say the constant, you know; I mean, we all know how hard it is to be asked about the same story a thousand times, but anyway. In new section 75(1)(a)(ii), it says that documents may be collected on an ongoing basis. In this case, what safeguards exist to prevent excessive or indefinite monitoring of M\u0101ori, especially where data may not relate to serious offending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EAdditionally, Minister, in regard to ongoing production orders, should there be a review by an independent body or a M\u0101ori oversight entity when they relate to M\u0101ori data? I opened up, earlier this morning, by saying that it\u2019s easy to go from a no to a yes. We\u2019re still in the \u201Cno\u201D lane. I\u2019m really looking forward to hearing some affirming, really, if not informative responses to the questions. Thank you, Mr Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022466\u0022 data-id=\u002236a5503fed724799852638d2afc0e197\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236a5503fed724799852638d2afc0e197\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I am looking at page 22, where we have new section 79Q inserted by clause 18, \u201CDisclosing matters relating to preservation direction\u201D. Of course, the Minister will know that this is the section that sets out the grounds for committing an offence as a person knowingly discloses to any other person that the direction has been made. It sets out some fairly serious penalties in subsection (3): so \u201C(a) \u2026 imprisonment not exceeding 6 months; (b) if they are a body corporate, to a fine not exceeding $100,000.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EMy first comment is a positive one, because there are a number of exceptions listed in subsection (4) which I think are really useful in terms of clarifying that for those people they can still seek legal advice and, under a number of other circumstances\u2014for example, if they\u2019re complying with the enforcement or with an enforcement order, they can then go ahead and disclose. I think there\u2019s, of course, a practical consideration of whether one would feel that one could seek legal advice in those circumstances and whether they would actively do that or whether they would feel a certain amount of pressure, but, none the less, it\u2019s good that that section of exceptions is in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EMy first question is really around the definitions of who is affected by a preservation order, which is in subsection (5) of that new section 79Q. It defines the affected person as either \u201C(a) the person against whom the direction was made; or (b) an officer, employee, or agent of the person against whom the direction was made.\u201D My sense is that there could be other individuals whose privacy rights are potentially impacted by a preservation direction. I wonder whether there was consideration of broadening out that provision to recognise that there may be other associates who are not necessarily agents of\u2014there could even be family members who would fall within that affected person\u2019s provision. To what extent does the Minister believe that the Privacy Act would protect those people\u2019s rights, given that they\u2019re not included within this definition section?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EThen, turning the page to page 26, new section 79R inserted by clause 18, which is where written notice needs to be provided by the chief executive of the law enforcement agency and they must give, essentially, written notice, but it also sets out a number of exceptions to that, which are all framed very broadly. So I\u2019m looking at subsection (2)(a) to (e). I wonder, in terms of limiting the powers, whether it would have made sense to just put some limitations on those powers. Right now, they\u2019re framed as broadly as \u201C(d) would prejudice any international relationships of the law enforcement agency\u201D. Reading that one on its own, in the context of the Minister\u2019s comments about New Zealand retaining its autonomy before it sends information out of the country, I would just be curious as to which takes precedence? Is it the international relationship or is it the rule of law as we know it within the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EThen I would look also at\u2014let me just find it\u2014new Part 3A, new section 88A(1), inserted by clause 19. So the definition of \u201Cforeign enforcement authority\u201D is defined extremely broadly. I don\u2019t think it really does give us direction as to who the other entity overseas would be who is making these requests. It sort of just says that that would be akin to New Zealand Police set out in section 9 of the Policing Act, but could potentially be more broad than that. So I\u2019m just asking if that is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003ELastly, Subpart 2 inserted by clause 19, new section 88B, says that \u201C(1) A constable must apply to the Commissioner for a preservation direction against a person if a foreign enforcement authority requests the New Zealand Police for a preservation direction against the person\u201D. So while there might be discretion in terms of the sending of that information overseas in line with our beliefs of the rule of law, the legislation is actually very directive about the constable having to apply to the commissioner for a preservation direction. The preservation direction is, potentially, prima facie rights breaching as well. So I\u2019m wondering whether there was consideration of giving some more flexibility and perhaps using the word \u201Cmay\u201D there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3eda0ddda62400398c268fbaf7712a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3eda0ddda62400398c268fbaf7712a7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA GRIGG (Minister of State for Trade and Investment):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to acknowledge and respond to questions raised by the member for Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. In between the political points attempted to be scored, I think the questions were really around data sovereignty and the safeguarding of M\u0101ori data. It\u2019s really important to acknowledge that in bringing this bill to the House, this is the Government of New Zealand taking responsibility and taking measures that help protect all New Zealanders from harm caused by cyber-related crimes, and that includes attacks on data. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ESpeaking specifically to M\u0101ori data, I don\u2019t think cyber-attacks acknowledge creed or race or ethnicity. Cyber-attacks risk harm to M\u0101ori data sovereignty. If a cyber-attack on M\u0101ori data was carried out, this bill would in fact provide the tools necessary to detect and investigate and, of course, prosecute that crime, ultimately. It\u2019s a real shame that that particular party can\u2019t bring itself to be supportive of the impetus behind this, because data sovereignty concerns all New Zealanders, and so, as the Government for all New Zealanders, we are concerned that these questions raised must be balanced against the need to protect all New Zealanders from harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022a253218d316d494bae14914cbee3c558\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a253218d316d494bae14914cbee3c558\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just have a short question for the Minister at this stage. Now, I want to pick up from the previous speaker Vanushi Walters\u2019 question. Specifically, when we\u2019re looking at new section 79Q, which I believe is clause 18, new Subpart 2A of Part 3 inserted. And we\u2019re looking at the exceptions. Specifically, when we\u2019re looking at a person who is affected by a preservation direction and is able to make disclosure concerns, and they\u2019re able to raise those kinds of concerns\u2014it does list some of the criteria, but I want to check with the Minister in terms of the kind of consultation in this that was had with the ethnic communities, and particularly when we\u2019re looking at it from the context of those who may not be able to speak English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWhen something like this happens because of the fact that we do allow these sort of\u2014particularly when we\u2019re looking at foreign authorities and being directed by foreign authorities on certain elements, I did want to check that when something like this is happening, the person who is affected by a preservation order will be, at least at the minimum from the authority\u2019s or appropriate enforcement officer\u2019s perspective, eligible for translation services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EJust because of the fact that, you know, there\u2019s one thing around translation, but there\u2019s also another element. Sometimes, when we do look at direction from foreign authorities that we have that agreement with, that those who are affected here may not be able to express themselves or feel that they are able to challenge authority, because it\u2019s not the standard norm from their country of origin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo I want to check with the Minister that when we\u2019re looking at this particular exception of new section 79Q(4) and that those two considerations have been made: number one, translation, and number two, the cultural and political needs of the people who are affected by a preservation order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022a14cec4c0e504950a6e17e65311bf41a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a14cec4c0e504950a6e17e65311bf41a\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I had a couple of questions in relation to the preservation orders. In the actual convention itself, it says that New Zealand is required to implement these new search and surveillance tools, providing for the preservation of specific electronic evidence of criminal offending\u2014and that\u2019s exactly what this bill does\u2014but the questions that I have are about how long data can be held for, and how long does this legislation require telecommunications providers to hold on to that data? We know that evidence is not deleted or modified before law enforcement agencies are able to obtain a production order from the court to have that information produced. But potentially, there could be quite a long period of time that would go on\u2014it\u2019s hard to estimate what that period of time would be\u2014and given the rapid exchange of data that occurs in the current day and age, there could be situations where there is heaps of data that would be acquired under the production order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo I think there\u2019ll be some pretty valid questions from telecommunications providers or others impacted, where they would want to know how long they are required to be holding on to this data, and what are the implications if they\u2019ve deleted it. So, say they did have a bunch, but it\u2019s gone now\u2014and, yes, there\u2019s a request made for that data\u2014what are the implications in situations such as that? An unlimited amount of traffic data is disclosed to law enforcement agencies so that other relevant service providers can be identified and served with preservation orders, if necessary. So it is also how do we define how wide that is going, and how does that work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EOf course, there are going to be quite clear implications in relation to the Privacy Act, which does require companies to delete personal information that is no longer required for lawful purposes. So I\u2019m just interested to know: if companies aren\u2019t able to hold personal information that is no longer required, but then subsequently a preservation order comes around, how do those two coincide in terms of the practicalities of how that might work? The regular deletion of data is a common business practice, particularly when a person closes an account, for example, and we know that offenders commonly close their accounts when they\u2019re seeking to conceal or even to destroy evidence of their offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe know that the Privacy Act has an exception that allows companies to voluntarily refrain from deleting personal information if it\u2019s to avoid the prejudicing of a criminal investigation. But it\u2019s going to be really difficult for them to ascertain, when there\u2019s large amounts of data, as to what to keep and what not to keep. So it would be interesting to know, with the passing of this legislation coming into law, whether there is any public engagement that the Government intends to undertake to talk to stakeholders who will be directly impacted by this\u2014or will there be some guidelines for those businesses impacted on how to store their data and what to do with it, and is there any potential cost to these businesses for additional storage, to have to meet these obligations? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI do note\u2014just saying that the Privacy Act exception allows companies to voluntarily refrain from deleting personal information to avoid that prejudice of a criminal investigation. This is not enforceable, and voluntary preservation is not adequate to meet the requirements of this convention. So I\u2019m interested to know from the Minister how the practicalities of those preservation orders would operate\u2014if they\u2019re requiring entities to hold the specific information, relevant to a specific criminal investigation, to temporarily preserve that information on their systems, when an application for a production order or a request for mutual legal assistance is about to be made or has been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ELike other search and surveillance powers, a preservation order would, I understand, override normal Privacy Act obligations. So I\u2019m interested to know, from the Minister, if that is the case, whether a preservation order would override those Privacy Act obligations, and whether there is any guidance or communication that the Government will be entering into with all of those entities that will be impacted by the implementation of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00221fa1c0caa5264971927412c79f129a39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fa1c0caa5264971927412c79f129a39\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I remember this bill, so I will address a couple\u2014I\u2019ll get some advice from officials on the specific questions around preservation orders and how long data needs to be kept for and the implications for deletion, but in terms of the interaction with the Privacy Act, the Privacy Act\u2019s quite clear. As the member mentioned in her speech, the requirement is to keep personal information only for as long as is reasonably necessary for the purposes of that useful collation. Of course, if that information is then deleted or returned back to the individual from whom it was collected and then there is a preservation order put in place, if the information no longer exists, then the information no longer exists and there\u2019s nothing to preserve. I\u2019ll get some further advice on those first two points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00225637163d1d0b48419fddee2ddf2280b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225637163d1d0b48419fddee2ddf2280b2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just going to keep going through the provisions of the Act, and I\u2019m interested in the cross-border stuff now. I\u2019m looking at new section 88G, and it talks about the duration of preservation directions when it\u2019s a foreign enforcement authority that\u2019s requested it. Now, you will recall that the preservation order sits for 20 days domestically with no particular right of extension. But when it\u2019s a foreign enforcement authority requesting it, it lasts for up to 150 days, which seems a very long time to have a preservation order. If you turn the page to page 34, new section 88I, you can apply for a renewal four times. So that\u2019s roughly two years that the preservation order can sit. Now, the only reason a preservation order might properly sit is to get a production order, and it seems to me that that\u2019s an extraordinarily long time. That actually requires some justification, because, as we\u2019ve just heard, there\u2019re genuine issues about the holding of personal information, and it is, essentially, a precursor to a search. So that\u2019s the first thing: why is it up to 300 days for the preservation order to be in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other thing is kind of a \u201Cplease explain\u201D and it\u2019s about new section 88H. It\u2019s this really peculiar section where a constable, a \u201Cresponsible constable\u201D, it\u2019s called\u2014you\u2019d hope most constables are responsible\u2014but forms a belief that serving a preservation order would prejudice an investigation or would be unlikely to result in preservation. I guess you\u2019re thinking\u2014and I\u2019m really inviting the Minister to give us the case\u2014about if you think serving the preservation order would be a tip-off to someone somehow, then they\u2019re going to delete the information, and then you\u2019ve got to go back. It appears you\u2019ve then got to go back to the foreign authority and say, essentially, \u201CAre you sure?\u201D It\u2019s just a very odd section. I may have that right, but it seems very odd that you\u2019ve been requested to issue a preservation order and, essentially, the constable thinks it\u2019s a bad idea and then has to go back and say, \u201CAre you sure you want to do this?\u201D Then, if they come back and say, \u201CYes, we\u2019re sure.\u201D, it appears you must do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll try to squeeze three in at a go. The third one is around\u2014yes, still on Part 1 and clause 36, but I think we\u2019re at that for now, which talks about the different offence triggers. I talked earlier\u2014and I don\u2019t think the Minister\u2019s responded on what\u2019s meant by \u201Cserious offence\u201D, earlier in the legislation. But then, we get to requests for \u201Cobtaining a thing\u201D, which is a pretty serious thing\u2014so it might be a computer hard drive, could be anything\u2014and it relates to a criminal matter in a foreign country that is punishable by imprisonment of two years or more. So you\u2019ve got a serious offence, on the one hand; elsewhere in the bill, you\u2019ve got a seven-year trigger; you\u2019ve also got triggers of particular offences; and now you\u2019ve got a two-year trigger. Can we, perhaps, have an explanation of why there are these kinds of very different measures across what are fundamentally the same kind of things\u2014which are preservation orders, production orders, and assistance in obtaining a thing\u2014but they\u2019re all, fundamentally, search and seizure orders. So why have we got this different range for different orders across those different things?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI think I\u2019ll probably leave it there and let some colleagues have a go, and I\u2019ll come back with some more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00220717a1123e344742ab5a0a1841ea6fa6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220717a1123e344742ab5a0a1841ea6fa6\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll just finish off the questions raised by Ginny Andersen. In terms of preservation orders, how long does the data need to be kept for? Well, for the preservation order, for as long as the order itself lasts\u2014or the application lasts for, once it\u2019s successful; and then following a preservation order no longer being effective, then the other legal requirements around Privacy Act requirements, other corporate responsibilities around maintenance of data, apply. What are the implications for deletion? It is an offence to delete while a preservation order is in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EThen, Dr Webb\u2019s questions: the first one he raised was around why the duration of foreign preservation directions are longer than the domestic preservation directions. The officials provide that \u201CThe reality is that mutual assistance requests can take months or years. It\u2019s an internationally recognised problem, and so, as such, the bill contains a longer period for foreign preservation directions to ensure the directions can be effective and do not expire before decisions are reached.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EThen on those last couple of questions around why the variety in the different measures for the offences: the official is going to provide some information shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00228b84d891cf8b4f9c99572d7ad78bf21c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b84d891cf8b4f9c99572d7ad78bf21c\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to first just remind the Minister that my questions around new section 79Q(4), inserted by clause 18, are still outstanding. There was a change in the Minister in the chair, so it\u2019s fine if we\u2019re still waiting to hear from that\u2014that was: for a person who\u2019s affected by a preservation order, has the Minister considered whether translation services would be offered, or taken into account the cultural and political context of the person who is affected by a preservation direction and where their country of origin potentially could be, especially if a foreign authority is involved in this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI want to start by talking about new section 88A, inserted by clause 19. I really want to highlight two of my colleague Kahurangi Carter\u2019s Amendment Papers. I would ask that the Minister would consider the two amendments, which are around two new sections being included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe first one is the part that we\u2019re looking at in terms of preservation direction and also investigation relating to foreign investigation or proceedings. It\u2019s not applicable to a person who has been recognised as a refugee or is seeking protection on a political ground or has made a claim for such recognition, but it has not yet been finally determined. Now, the reason for this is that what we have seen in the legislation and through the select committee process is that there isn\u2019t a sufficient safeguard from our end for these people who potentially would be prosecuted in their own country for something that we would consider as our inherent right under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. How would they be protected under this legislation? We have seen news being reported where people have been able to express their freedom of speech here in Aotearoa New Zealand by right; however, they have been subjected to investigation with the cooperation of New Zealand authorities while they are here on New Zealand ground, so it\u2019s really important that there are protections for those who are either refugees or seeking protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, the second Amendment Paper that I will ask the Minister to consider is also applicable to new section 88A(5), inserted by clause 19, which is that this part does not apply to a person who engages in conduct or activities that are part of a lawful protest or demonstration or that engages in acts primarily motivated by economic interests, including industrial action or economic boycott. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, again, the reason for that is just to protect or provide some safeguards around some of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act sections, particularly around freedom of expression and freedom of assembly and freedom of association, so I would ask, as a starting point, for the Minister to consider those two Amendment Papers. They are crucial in terms of how the Greens would feel about this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, the next thing I would like to address is around new section 88B, inserted by clause 19. I just want to check that when we\u2019re looking at foreign enforcement authority\u2014and forgive me; apologies if this has been covered already\u2014what the scope of that is and how the commissioner on our end would potentially look into it when being requested by a foreign agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, moving further along in terms of section 88, the final question that I have is around new section 88V, which is when section 88U ceases to apply to affected person, but what we see in subsection (2) of this is if the commissioner gives written notice, before the date on which the direction expires or is revoked, to the person against which the direction is made. Now, my question is: under subsection 4(c), when we\u2019re looking at something like \u201Cwould prejudice the supply of information to the law enforcement agency\u201D, what would be the threshold for that particular prejudice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAnd we\u2019re looking at new section 88V(5)(a), \u201Ckeep under review the appropriateness of a notice given under subsection (2)\u201D. What would be an example of that appropriateness? So there are a number of questions there for the Minister, and I look forward to the Minister\u2019s engagement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9303f77132c4fcda5a6bca6e5359aa2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9303f77132c4fcda5a6bca6e5359aa2\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you, Mr Chair. We\u2019ll just backtrack a little bit to Dr Webb\u2019s question around the penalty thresholds. I\u2019m advised that, in terms of the difference between two years and seven years, two years is the existing threshold in the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act (MACMA) and the bill replicates that in its amendment to search powers, and seven years is the existing threshold in MACMA also for highly intrusive surveillance\u2014so trespass surveillance and interception domestically\u2014and the bill replicates that from MACMA as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EJust to address Dr Xu-Nan\u2019s questions around member Carter\u2019s proposed amendments: we don\u2019t support the amendments. We think there are sufficient protections in place already. So, for example, section 27 of MACMA applies to any mutual assistance requests\u2014that\u2019s around freedom of expression. That sets out that mutual assistance cannot be granted for political offences. It also allows requests to be declined on the basis that the activity would not be an offence in New Zealand. That addresses some of the protections in place and it\u2019s why we won\u2019t be supporting those amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022466\u0022 data-id=\u002269543b8dadc649d79667fcb94fc10308\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269543b8dadc649d79667fcb94fc10308\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have some questions, beginning from page 31\u2014so this is new section 88D, inserted by clause 19, under new Subpart 3. It\u2019s in relation to the commissioner\u2019s ability to make preservation directions, but I think it\u2019s drafted in quite an unusual way, because it\u2019s drafted with a presumption against being rights protective, and I think it\u2019s quite unnecessary. Section 88D(1) says, \u201COn an application for a preservation direction against a person, the Commissioner must make a preservation direction against the person.\u201D, and then it proceeds to outline circumstances where the commissioner may refuse to grant the application in new subsection (2). I would just question the drafting style in terms of the presumption that a commissioner must make a preservation direction as a subsection (1) statement and then moving to circumstances where the commissioner may refuse to. So I\u2019m just wanting the Minister to respond to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EAlso, new section 88D(2)(b) states that \u201Cthe foreign enforcement authority\u2019s request for a preservation direction\u201D\u2014this is where the commissioner might refuse. It\u2019s where a \u201Cforeign enforcement authority\u2019s request \u2026 relates to the prosecution or punishment of a person for an offence that is, or is by reason of the circumstances in which it is alleged to have been committed or was committed, an offence of a political character\u201D. I can\u2019t find the definition of political character, but just curious about the Minister in the chair\u2019s comments that there was this sort of human rights lens, if you like, that was going to be applied. If it was, then I would question why we hadn\u2019t used more broad language than simply using the words \u201Cpolitical character\u201D. However, it would be useful for the Minister, if the Minister would, to explain the scope of what is included within that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EOn the same section\u2014so 88D\u2014there is also grounds to refuse the application if the commissioner believes \u201Cthat the request has been made with a view to prosecuting or punishing a person for an offence of a political character\u201D. So my question on this side, the lean is slightly different\u2014it\u2019s: who constitutes a person? The reason I ask that question is in reference to my second reading speech, where I quoted some of the work that\u2019s been done internationally by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International and others as well who reported on seeking information for the purpose of committing human rights abuses against family members of the individual concerned in a home country. So is that part of the considerations that would be taken into account under 88D, or is it purely in relation to the individual against whom a preservation direction is being considered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EI then go to new section 88E, \u201CForm and content\u201D. This is the section where, if the documents described in the direction are no longer in the possession or control of the person, then they have to provide information to the best of their knowledge as to the location of the documents to a constable identified in the direction. Of course, it may be, in some circumstances, that the documents were never in the possession of this individual, and I just wonder whether it would be prudent to make it clear that, obviously, they can just say they do not know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EAlso, the section states that they have to disclose this information \u201Cby the time, if any, specified in the direction\u201D. My question here relates to their ability to get legal advice, which we\u2019ve spoken about earlier, but certainly, if they have a direction which specifies a rather short period of time, they may not be able to seek that legal advice. So I\u2019m wondering whether the Minister considers that it would be reasonable to insert that into 88E(1)(c). Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2b3694e18ce4ccaa6e29c567aaa3c91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2b3694e18ce4ccaa6e29c567aaa3c91\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll do my best to run through answers to a variety of questions. There was a question around why is it that the constable \u201Cmust\u201D make a direction and not \u201Cmay\u201D, and I am advised that although both foreign and domestic preservation directions are required by the Budapest Convention, the convention is more prescriptive about the circumstances in which a foreign preservation direction must be available. In section 88D, the new section provides that a request from a foreign country must be granted so long as mutual assistance request is required. So I\u2019m not sure if that exactly answers the entire question, but, essentially, it is a requirement of the convention itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll go to the question raised by Dr Xu-Nan around translation services, whether they would be provided. There is a general obligation in our criminal justice and in our justice system to make sure that anyone faced with legal rights or obligations are aware of those legal rights and obligations, so the expectation would be that translation services are enabled so that individuals can be made fully aware of their rights and what they are obliged to do\u2014and of course, any court of law would enforce that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters asked a range of questions, one of which was: what is the scope of political character; how is it defined? The definition mirrors the existing mutual assistance law, which is section 2(6), of the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act\u2014the MACMA\u2014which sets out that an offence of political character does not include conduct which we have already agreed with another country will not be treated as such. Also, it\u2019s hard to prescribe what political character would look like. We don\u2019t prescribe this in the law because it would be generally considered on a case by case basis, and once we start prescribing it in legislation, we limit what that could or could not look like. In terms of who is a person\u2014I understand this was in relation to new section 88D. If you look in new section 88D(1), it\u2019s kind of a circular answer, but, essentially, a person is the person against which a preservation direction is made. So it is that person in the context of that section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00226a6b5ce370464659bd4a755de5435e26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a6b5ce370464659bd4a755de5435e26\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve got a few questions. I\u2019m actually getting through them, which is good. I guess my first question relates to replacement section 49A, inserted by clause 37, which starts on page 55. It talks about when matters are disposed of. Just clarifying in replacement section 49A(2)(b) and (c), first of all, that the matters disposed of when \u201C(b) any proceeding in New Zealand that is commenced by a notifiable person and relates to the search warrant,\u201D\u2014so this is around those search warrants\u2014\u201Cproduction order, or the proposed direction has been finally disposed of\u201D. Now, I\u2019m assuming that\u2019s judicial reviews and appeal processes. Then the second leg of it is that \u201C(c) the foreign country has given undertakings about any matter that the Attorney-General considers appropriate.\u201D Now, I understand the Minister\u2019s just identified that you can\u2019t be too prescriptive in legislation about that; I accept that. But I think just an indication, for the record, from the Minister what those undertakings might be\u2014I understand that it may well be, for example, the return of the property, it might be fair trial rights that the person will be given full ability to have counsel, or it might be that the death penalty won\u2019t be imposed. So I\u2019d be interested in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThen, the second question is about new section 49B, inserted by clause 37. This is quite interesting because it appears this is dispensing with the obligation to give notice. So \u201C(1) The Attorney-General may authorise the New Zealand Police to apply for a dispensation from the Attorney-General\u2019s obligation to give notice under section 49A of the \u2026 intention to direct that a thing seized \u2026 be sent out of [New Zealand]\u201D. So if you\u2019re Kim Dotcom and your hard drives are going to be sent overseas, you might think that that\u2019s a very bad thing, and you might think that, in fact, it will be highly prejudicial to you or a third party, and you should be able to seek to stop it being moved. Now, that makes perfect sense to me, but this is the ability to send evidence overseas without the ability for it to be challenged; is that right? I mean, honesty, is that how it works? That does seem truly extraordinary that you\u2019ve got, essentially, a secret and unchallengeable process. In terms of there being an exercise of State power, the stuff\u2019s been seized, and then a further decision\u2014a decision to send that evidence to a foreign power. Now, any exercise of State power should be challengeable, but you can\u2019t challenge something you don\u2019t know about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo my question is: what\u2019s going on here? Am I right about that, and, I guess, if I am, what the heck is the protection for the person whose evidence is being sent overseas from misuse of that evidence? If, as Vanushi Walters identified, the hard drive has family photos and addresses on it and all those kinds of things and that could be used for nefarious purposes\u2014that, at the moment, the Government doesn\u2019t accept, but you want to make that argument\u2014you should be able to go to court and make that argument, and for it not to be sent overseas before that argument can be made. I want to leave my current contribution there because I think that\u2019s an important point I\u2019d like to hear addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002255357105dfe84f9ca185e83d7d72c0a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255357105dfe84f9ca185e83d7d72c0a0\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I just have a couple of questions that I wanted to ask the Minister that were sort of in relation to the economic effects of this legislation coming into force. So we know that cyber-crime, such as fraud, causes a huge economic loss for businesses, as well as for the Government and individuals. This is a big step forward for us as a country, for New Zealand\u2014that we\u2019re actually putting into place some important changes that will give our law enforcement agencies the ability to work alongside of other countries to be able to do this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBut I would be interested to know if any analysis has been undertaken as to what the potential gains would be for our economy by having this in place. We know that Search New Zealand has recorded approximately 4,700 security incidents\u2014the last recorded was in 2019\u2014and that had an impact of about $16.7 million in financial losses. The most common incidents were things like phishing for credential harvesting\u2014which is stealing passwords\u2014scams, frauds, and also things like unauthorised access. These are the things that concern Kiwis the most; these are things that people are constantly vigilant about in terms of protecting their passwords and protecting their financial security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo, given the fact that we\u2019re passing legislation that will make these changes, it would be good to understand what type of analysis has been done on the impact of preventing such crimes happening in the future. A half-yearly report from 2020 shows that cyber-security incidents have increased by 42 percent, compared to the same period in 2019, and that\u2019s quite dated information that I found available. So is there any more recent information available to know this increase, because it would be really useful for us to start measuring the impact of this legislation on the increasing incidence of financial crime that is happening by cyber-crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe Reserve Bank themselves released a report back in February 2020, and that specifically focused on cyber-incidents in the financial sector. The rough estimate there was the average cost of cyber-incidents are around $104 million per year for the banking industry alone, and around $38\u00A0million per annum for the insurance industry. So there are quite significant implications. If those are the benchmarks we have now, it would be really good to know whether there are any processes in place, which Government department will be looking at this to see what the impact of this legislation will be, and what the benefits will be of being part of an international network of countries that are, effectively, working together, cooperating together, to be able to prevent cyber-crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe know that the National Cyber Security Centre recorded around 352 cyber-security incidents in the year it was last looked at, in 2020. And so, in addition to economic loss, cyber-security incidents have negative impacts for public confidence as well\u2014public confidence in computer systems, for example, in relation to conducting business over the internet, and in providing personal information as we\u2019re wanting to move into a digital age where digital identities provide a lot of our information online. People have real concerns, because they\u2019ve had negative instances in the past, which have compromised not only their personal security but also their financial security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s been a lot of discussions\u2014a global campaign in terms of deep \u201Cdenial of service\u201D attacks affecting a wide range of New Zealand organisations. New Zealand\u2019s not alone in terms of its impact, and even our Parliament website has been impacted as well in the past. So in terms of making sure that we are, I guess, benchmarking where we are at now, what those financial impacts are, not only to businesses but also to individuals, and also to public trust and confidence in using the internet and providing personal information, I would be really interested to hear from the Minister in terms of what framework is in place to look at how useful signing up to something like this has been for preparing us for the future and encouraging, I guess, a society that has trust and confidence with using the internet safely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00228c91948f999c4ae5b02607dcc4f934ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c91948f999c4ae5b02607dcc4f934ab\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just touch on Dr Webb\u2019s question\u2014or examples, actually; pretty good examples of the kind of undertakings that the Attorney-General might seek from foreign countries. He also raised the question of what happens when you don\u2019t know that you\u2019re subject to a preservation order. The bill introduces provisions to require notifications precisely so that people have the opportunity to challenge them in court\u2014but, of course, there are some times where notifications could seriously prejudice ongoing investigations. In that case, the Attorney-General can seek a waiver of notification, but that waiver will require approval of a High Court judge. So there are some protections in place from our judicial system. There are other examples of parts of the law where, from time to time, a court will make a decision in absentia of the individual that is being affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EQuestions from Ginny Andersen: I\u2019ll look at some further advice around what kind of analysis has been done and how do we know how useful this has been. But of course, the thrust of this bill, as well as enabling participation in the Budapest Convention, is, essentially, we are changing the law to enable foreign requests for preservation and production orders in New Zealand. So the changes in this bill won\u2019t actually do much to, I guess, affect the level of crime in New Zealand, but of course it enables for that mutual assistance to be undertaken in other jurisdictions, and we can get some further information on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220e09cc41d647474ca70eec2cc3851920\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e09cc41d647474ca70eec2cc3851920\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a call from Lawrence Xu-Nan. I want them fairly homed in now. We\u2019ve covered a wide ground, but the Minister has just said that he\u2019s going to get some further advice\u2014so, really, just anything new. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002235d90e7f80a34b879d36baa0c0629c04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235d90e7f80a34b879d36baa0c0629c04\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have a short question around clause 19, new section 88Z\u2014also, this is in combination with new sections 88O and 88P. Now, one of the things that we do see is, from new section 88Z onwards, that would provide a level of immunities relating to functions of commissioner and reviewers in the case of issuing preservation directions. I wanted to check with the Minister, with new sections 88O and 88P, for a person who may not be satisfied with the decision that was made by the commissioner but the commissioner has immunities, are new sections 88O and 88P\u2014the ability for someone who is affected by preservation direction the right to review\u2014the only avenue that is available for them in those kinds of cases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI want to check with another thing the Minister said before\u2014and I\u2019m very grateful to the Minister for responding to my question, which is that translation services will be available for people within the criminal justice system, but would that extend to when the review is conducted as well under new section 88P? Would translation services be available for people then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo those are my questions, which are: commissioner and reviewer have immunities, so is the only tool for the person affected by the preservation order stated in new sections 88O and 88P, which is ability to review, which means the ability to have, in accordance with new section 88P(4)(a)(iii), the revocation of a preservation direction, and whether translation services will be available for this, because it\u2019s technically not within the criminal justice system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002222157bb0336e42078b4617a9c35cd945\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222157bb0336e42078b4617a9c35cd945\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I can see that Duncan Webb\u2019s just got one more burning question while he\u2019s waiting for the Minister to get his advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002241790784ec9046c1a53ee7d139044c9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241790784ec9046c1a53ee7d139044c9c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that indulgence. First of all, I just want to say I think the Minister in the chair, James Meager, answered a question I didn\u2019t ask, because I actually asked about new section 49B, inserted by clause 37, which is not about preservation orders at all; it\u2019s about sending seized things out of New Zealand. I get that you don\u2019t have to notify preservation orders all the time, and they\u2019re a kind of a low-level thing, because they don\u2019t even give evidence to a third party. I was interested in not telling someone that you\u2019re sending something that you\u2019ve seized from them overseas. That seems very Star Chamber, to not let them know and not give them an opportunity to challenge what might be very sensitive information going overseas. So I\u2019d invite the Minister or his officials to address that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other thing is this, and it\u2019s about\u2014you\u2019re surveilling someone, or the Government or police are surveilling someone, for a foreign nation, and then, under new section 50U, it says something quite unusual. We love the Parliamentary Counsel Office, but they seem to love double negatives, because they say in 50U(2), of this evidential material that\u2019s being gathered, \u201CThe evidential material is not inadmissible in criminal proceedings in New Zealand merely because the surveillance device warrant \u2026 issued in relation to an offence against the law of a foreign country.\u201D I hate double negatives. I\u2019m not sure if they\u2019re saying the evidential material is admissible even though it was about an offence in a foreign country, but I do think that is a really important point to clarify what that means. If it\u2019s saying it is admissible, that\u2019s one thing; if it\u2019s saying it might be admissible, that\u2019s quite another. At the moment, it appears to say it might be admissible rather than it is admissible, because \u201Cnot inadmissible\u201D doesn\u2019t actually mean admissible; it means something less. If I was challenging it, it would suggest that I can say, \u201CWell, it shouldn\u2019t be admissible for the following reasons: the warrant wasn\u2019t appropriately given\u201D\u2014or whatever it might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut I do think that\u2019s an important point, because there is a danger here. This is a search, and you\u2019ve searched someone for one purpose and you\u2019re getting evidence for another purpose. Now, that does happen, and certainly, under domestic law, you might enter a property on a domestic violence matter and find a stash of drugs, and that would be admissible. Now, if that\u2019s the rule for searches and surveillance for foreign powers, I think we need to say that clearly and not by use of some strange double negative. So those two things: first of all, things taken out of New Zealand being secretly taken out, and, secondly, is this evidence admissible or not admissible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00228179f9b803f74c72b772adf2b37f9e7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228179f9b803f74c72b772adf2b37f9e7a\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Dr Webb answered his own question. Essentially, you could read it as being it might be, but you can\u2019t phrase it like that. So there are a whole range of reasons why evidence might be inadmissible. What this subsection is saying is that\u2014OK, here we go; without reading the clause out itself\u2014you know: you can\u2019t reduce the double negative, otherwise you\u2019re right, it would say the evidence is admissible, which is not the case. What it is saying is that evidence is not necessarily inadmissible just because the device warrant was issued in relation to an offence against the law of the foreign country. It might be inadmissible for a whole range of reasons as per the Evidence Act, but there is really no other way of phrasing it, and I think Dr Webb answered his own question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003ETo his earlier question about notice or what protections are in place for when things are actually being removed from the country, that\u2019s what I was referring to rather than the preservation orders themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EThen to Ginny Andersen\u2019s questions around what impact this will have on crime in New Zealand. Well, we know that cyber-crime has a cost of about $1.6 billion, and so time will tell what impact this will have on that, but, hopefully, over time, we will see that cost impact being reduced. There\u2019s nothing in the legislation, and very rarely is there in legislation requirements for reports or research or evaluation on things like this, but I would expect that any sensible Government that implements these kinds of rules would do so with some sort of cost-benefit analysis or useful analysis along the way so we make sure that things that we are implementing actually work in our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u00228e7f0ce9be39440da8984dc3600a8b6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e7f0ce9be39440da8984dc3600a8b6f\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224990b1621af24fcabb979cfbc32fa8bf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022017aed01c7454ef38c65bd160d60f419\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022017aed01c7454ef38c65bd160d60f419\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 333 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220ab01c7195f84c47aa738ef1471b7f6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ab01c7195f84c47aa738ef1471b7f6a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Kahurangi Carter\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 19 inserting new section 88AA to provide that new Part 3A does not apply to persons who engage in conduct or activities that are part of a lawful protest or demonstration be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a196f86abb9d41de8ba87d953628fd14\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00225eae1a84d5ad4791b42b5daa4da3ca2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225eae1a84d5ad4791b42b5daa4da3ca2f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Quiet during voting, please! The question is that Kahurangi Carter\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 19 inserting new section 88AA to provide that new Part 3A does not apply to a person who has been recognised as a refugee or is seeking protection be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c99c701fd2034ceab3a5c2e250301458\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00225c74e5640ace443f8b456639a9e83d90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c74e5640ace443f8b456639a9e83d90\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Kahurangi Carter\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new clause 23A is out of order as being outside of the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220e8b4a8ab7d14f3a93314fdd2d1473ce\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002214c1dd7083db4ab58d977eb367922713\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Crimes Act 1961\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f32a32eb02ba4850b3e245a44617386d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f32a32eb02ba4850b3e245a44617386d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2, and Part 2 is the debate on clauses 54 to 62, \u201CAmendments to Crimes Act 1961\u201D, and includes the debate on the proposed new Schedule 3, set out on the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper 333. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e536b77e40ce439e9f99f163885566c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e536b77e40ce439e9f99f163885566c8\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. Part 2 is a pretty brisk part which relates to amendments to the Crimes Act. The reason for amending the Crimes Act is to ensure that New Zealand law fully aligns with the requirements of the Budapest Convention relating to computer-related offending. For the most part, these minor amendments are to the status quo. That\u2019s important because, of course, international conventions and treaties only have force of law in New Zealand when they are incorporated into statutes. So making changes in the Crimes Act is an important part of upholding that part of parliamentary sovereignty, which is that international conventions and treaties entered into are all well and good, but they don\u2019t have force of law until they\u2019re actually implemented in New Zealand statutes. So, like trade agreements, this is part of that commitment to our international obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EJust generally, along with some of those minor adjustments, two main things: the first one is that Part 2, clause 58 amends section 228B of the Crimes Act, which already criminalises a person \u201CPossessing, selling, \u2026 disposing of goods designed, manufactured, or adapted with intent to facilitate commission of the crimes involving dishonesty\u201D, just to also include procurement as an element. The other part of the part\u2014Part 2\u2014is that it splits the existing section 252 into two new offences. The first being \u201CDesigning, writing, or adapting software \u2026 if the resulting software would enable a person to commit an offence\u201D, and also, \u201CDealing in or possessing software or other information for committing [a] crime\u201D. In so far as the Amendment Paper, I think that\u2019s pretty self-explanatory and speaks for itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022de43781871c54045a7b9cb47166de25a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de43781871c54045a7b9cb47166de25a\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a question: I want to check with the Minister and I\u2019m also just trying to see if there is a specific definition of \u201Csoftware\u201D in the Crimes Act, because one of the reasons I asked this is, what is the scope of what is considered software? Would the Minister consider social media\u2014for example, and particularly when it comes to apps, a software in the definition in this case? I\u2019m curious about this because: what happens in this case if that is within the scope, that you have a social media platform that is being used to facilitate a person who commits a crime against sections 249, 250, and 252? So, just specifically, I am looking at clause 62, new section 253 and 254, and I\u2019m looking at 253(1)(a) at this stage. So I do want to check that particular part with the Minister on whether the scope does include apps, because that\u2019s one part of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI guess the other part is you often do hear that\u2014particularly when it comes to the use of software\u2014the liability is on the user as opposed to the developer of the software. This is something we do see quite often when it comes to app-based devices. Indeed, this is something that the Minister just before mentioned in terms of our trade agreements, and in the e-chapters we do have in trade agreements. This is something that isn\u2019t something that can be captured or even honed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, I\u2019m curious to hear what the Minister\u2019s thought is around section 254(1)(a)(ii), which is \u201Cknows or is\u201D\u2014in particular\u2014\u201Creckless\u201D has a completely different connotation as on what the tradition has been, using from the perspective of mens rea. So, in that particular case, if we\u2019re looking at recklessness as an indicator, does that mean that those people with the software, if they or if anyone is using the software\u2014and, in this case, if the scope expands to apps\u2014is reckless or has developed their thing in a way that could be used recklessly, that that is considered an offence under this particular legislation now under a new offence that\u2019s been created in the Crimes Act 1961? So it\u2019s a very interesting, I guess, legal question in terms of the scope of software use, and I want to check with the Minister if he wouldn\u2019t mind answering those two questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00224088b405cc1f404c877ff08cd62e0472\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224088b405cc1f404c877ff08cd62e0472\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E Without wanting to get into providing legal advice, generally, common interpretation techniques would say that you\u2019d take the plain meaning of a term in its context and in the purpose of the legislation. Let\u2019s just take the plain, common-sense definition of \u201Csoftware\u201D\u2014again, don\u2019t want to get into providing legal advice\u2014but an app, I think, would generally be considered to be software; it\u2019s a computer program. Whether or not you\u2019d include social media in that definition would be arguable. Social media is, essentially, code and computer programming written to enable individuals or communities to share information. Whether or not you\u2019d define social media itself\u2014as the concept\u2014as being software, I\u2019m not too sure. I think in any common-sense prosecution, you would apply the plain, intended meaning of the word in line with the context in which it is in the statute, and the purpose of the statute itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022466\u0022 data-id=\u00227a125149d38844ce859f006ac8d6b161\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a125149d38844ce859f006ac8d6b161\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to ask a question about new section 254(2), inserted by clause 62, but as it relates to subsection (1). It defines who a person is who is dealing in software or other information and subsection (2)(b) includes a person who \u201Coffers or exposes it for sale or supply to any other person\u201D, which is quite a low threshold, really, in terms of being within that category. While we\u2019re talking social media, it could be someone who\u2019s sharing a product, for example, or sharing an ad regarding an app. If you couple that with the lowest bar of guilt in new section 254(1)\u2014the provision that my colleague was referring to\u2014and someone was recklessly advertising somebody else\u2019s product via social media and thereby exposing it, they\u2019re potentially, then, caught by new section 254 and they\u2019re potentially, then, liable for a conviction to a term of imprisonment not exceeding two years. I guess my simple question is: is the intention to be able to capture a situation like that because of the use of the word \u201Cexpose\u201D, so that person doesn\u2019t have possession of?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae80dbceda8842bdb2c850c24e4286a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae80dbceda8842bdb2c850c24e4286a9\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E Again, without trying to get too much into providing legal advice for individuals, I point the member to section 254, which does include various mens rea elements, as Dr Xu-Nan listed before, and also that includes intent, knowledge, knowing, or being reckless as to whether or not an offence is committed. So you\u2019d have to combine the intentionality aspects with the definition of whether or not a person deals in software or not. I would also note that this is a pre-existing section within the Crimes Act, and all this section does is split the existing section 252 into two new offences. So it is taking pre-existing offences within the Crimes Act with, presumably, a body of jurisprudence and common law sitting in behind it and splitting it into two new offences. There are no new obligations or offences or definitions being included in this piece of legislation, unless I am advised otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u00223a0d5560292345348fc378288724f65e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a0d5560292345348fc378288724f65e\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m looking at page 73, Part 2, clause 62, inserting new section 253. My colleague Vanushi Walters talked about new section 254, so I just want to be clear that I\u2019m not covering that ground again, but looking at new section 253, which is \u201CDesigning, writing, or adapting software for committing certain crimes\u201D. Now, we know that this is a really key part to this bill because we know that cyber-crime knows no borders, and it is important that we have a vigorous understanding of what it means to design, write, adapt software for committing certain crimes, because we don\u2019t want that to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ELooking at new section 253(1)(a) and (b), we want to make sure that this is not going to be applied to anyone who isn\u2019t actually breaking any laws. So I\u2019m just wanting to ask the Minister in the chair: can you explain the intent behind new section 253 and how the drafting may avoid capturing legitimate or dual-use software developed for security or educational purposes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EIt can be quite murky when we\u2019re looking at cyber and software, so we know that, sometimes, people are developing these for security purposes or for educational purposes. I\u2019m just wondering how this actual wording came to be and how it avoids capturing those legitimate dual-use purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u002234f1b01e041944448ca59b10dec6c170\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234f1b01e041944448ca59b10dec6c170\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I can address that. If we go to new section 253(1)(b), inserted by clause 62, there is an intention element there. So the person must intend to use the software, or must intend any other person using the software, to commit an offence against section 249, 250, or 252. So, essentially, there must be an intention to commit an offence and it\u2019s not an inadvertent use of or development of software for any other reason; it must be for nefarious purposes. Again, these two new sections are a reworking of existing section 252 into two new offences to clarify exactly how they apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220bad7d25a17e4f0c9c8ffd125847dd0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bad7d25a17e4f0c9c8ffd125847dd0f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the House for the dinner break. The House is suspended until 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.58 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c74c7bb18677495d9d09824a7a0b03c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c74c7bb18677495d9d09824a7a0b03c4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is resumed on the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill. When we were considering the bill before the dinner break, we were debating Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 54 to 62, \u201CAmendments to Crimes Act 1961\u201D, and includes the debate on the proposed new Schedule 3, set out on Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper 333. The question is, again, that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5a5cf3acb7f4a35a013f2076de5b8d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5a5cf3acb7f4a35a013f2076de5b8d0\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you to the Minister in the chair for the explanation around this. I totally appreciate the fact that the Minister is not providing legal advice but just, mainly, ministerial intent. I have one last, final, really small question on this part, which is around whether in the context\u2014because I haven\u2019t looked specifically in the Crimes Act 1961\u2014the definition of a \u201Cperson\u201D here is a real person and not a legal person. Can I just ask the Minister to confirm that if it is a legal person, for example, who designs, writes, or adopts, then it\u2019s a different connotation? I guess the other question is: with a real person, what happens if it\u2019s not so much a person who designs, writes, or adapts software, but a company who does it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9ae7b5046ae4effa309db6046ffdb72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9ae7b5046ae4effa309db6046ffdb72\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll take some advice, but given it\u2019s a Crimes Act definition of person, my basic understanding would be that it would be a legal human person, and not in the company sense. I\u2019m not sure\u2014I\u2019m going to take some advice on that. Let me check some advice, but I\u2019m just not as familiar with whether or not a corporation can be guilty of a crime under this Act\u2014whether it\u2019s the individuals acting in their individual capacity, but let me double-check.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00228da446f51dad4554851c879b198c70ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228da446f51dad4554851c879b198c70ba\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, and I just want to also thank the Minister for taking such a thorough approach to answering our questions\u2014that\u2019s all. Can I just check\u2014I guess a clarification from the Chair: while the Minister is receiving advice, if we have no more questions around this, how do we proceed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00228e1b1793e7894125bdf7130ea0f7709c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e1b1793e7894125bdf7130ea0f7709c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I mean, the Minister has just told me that he could make that answer available during the title and commencement debate, if that was fine with people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243ecae4ce2df46738a522b07bb97cf89\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226cc44cd11a3a43eebc0632b2346cfe41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cc44cd11a3a43eebc0632b2346cfe41\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so it\u2019s fine with people. The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 2 set out on Amendment Paper 333 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ea0d40797bc14923864fd71ef23746d8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002269957687220e4521ba1bcdbb3b1e54e8\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cae8168a8ab7410fb163153f48e45ada\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cae8168a8ab7410fb163153f48e45ada\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 1 set out on Amendment Paper 333 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f41a9686e84f4cd3aef18ae1df23723b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225d663849b1fe4024b35cdba67bb85015\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb3df76bf980460b9042b034aa1da847\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00221a4b65eb77334504ae526eb7a982b982\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a4b65eb77334504ae526eb7a982b982\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Schedule 2 set out on Amendment Paper 333 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226e5de9a0a54341dc809e965d6fe5eda8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022895c5e4962164d6f9974d77ffbdef0da\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ff88856f2ea4415abd7b654bb7aace8\u0022\u003ENew Schedule 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002274514db3341047b2ba85b96b892da638\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274514db3341047b2ba85b96b892da638\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment inserting new Schedule 3 set out on Amendment Paper 333 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223c8284645bc142939d160ae77ff53b9a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4c12d864eff4856a6af189dda15f6a8\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c518fcc5a2984387a3aa69604ded8b7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c518fcc5a2984387a3aa69604ded8b7e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate, clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D. The question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022691eb5a4e0e34c07938d350d76ff2cc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022691eb5a4e0e34c07938d350d76ff2cc1\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Title and commencement: very straightforward. The title of the bill is deliberate and clear. It sets out that it\u2019s the \u201CBudapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Act\u201D, as it will eventually be. It\u2019s very important because we need to be clear about what the Act will be called, because it implements changes to our statute law in order to give power to the Budapest Convention. For those who are looking for the legal foundation for matters agreed to in the convention, they need to be able to be directed straight to the piece of legislation which does that. That\u2019s why it is called this, and I would suspect that any amendments would probably be not supported for those reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the commencement, there are, essentially, two dates that the bill comes into force. Subclause (3) of clause 2 outlines a number of sections that will come into force immediately, the day after Royal assent. Subclause (2) of clause 2 outlines that \u201CAny part of this Act\u201D\u2014well, actually, let\u2019s go to subclause (1) first. Apart from those provisions that come into force the day after Royal assent, all other parts of the Act will come \u201Cinto force on a date or dates set by Order in Council.\u201D However, there is a fall-back date where the entire Act will be enforced by 1 October 2025. That variable time or that time between now and 1 October as the last possible date is to provide Police the time to implement operational changes that they will need to make in order to give effect to the legislation. I\u2019m advised that they are under way with those changes already and that they will make good progress, but, obviously, they have to wait till the bill comes into force before they can actually enact them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the reason why there\u2019s a split commencement, but there is that fall-back date of 1 October 2025. Just to touch on Dr Xu-Nan\u2019s question before, it is a\u2014I don\u2019t know what the description is\u2014a human person, an individual person, not a legal person, for the purposes of the Crimes Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2bb57ab351e47eca1fce8d74c8b84d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2bb57ab351e47eca1fce8d74c8b84d8\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much for your response to that question, Minister. I really do appreciate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EJust on the commencement date, thank you for setting, I guess, the parameters of why that commencement date came about. Again, I will do the first two, and particularly looking at clause 2(1) and (2). Can I just check what the rationale is for having the Act come into force by Order in Council. Minister, you mentioned, in terms of the fall-back date being 1 October, that it is to give Police sufficient time. However, we heard just yesterday, in terms of the New Zealand - United Arab Emirates Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement\u2014that particular legislation\u2014that the commencement date for that was set by Order in Council because there are certain agreements and that that\u2019s the date that was settled on by both parties to that particular agreement. Can I just check: is this date being set by Order in Council a decision that we made because of domestic reasons\u2014i.e., the preparedness of the Police\u2014or is it because of international reasons, because there are additional agreements and, I guess, additional things we need to sign or coordinate internationally with various partners? That\u2019s my first question in terms of clarification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI guess the second part of my question is\u2014I mean, all dates that are not the day after Royal assent are, in some form, arbitrary. I just want to hear the Minister elaborate on why 1 October is that date that was chosen. It seems to not be three months after. We\u2019re looking at, what, one or two months. Nine weeks seems like an odd time to choose. I just want to get clarification from the Minister on the rationale behind the 1 October date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f970032e79664d428865b565befe980a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f970032e79664d428865b565befe980a\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry, I\u2019m just writing down the exact phrase. So the reason that there\u2019s an Order in Council required to bring the bill into force\u2014there\u2019s, essentially, two ways that bills can come into force: you set a date in the legislation or you set a date to be determined by Order in Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003ENow, sometimes those dates are left open for a Government to provide an Order in Council at some point. Actually, sitting on the Regulations Review Committee a few months ago, we were provided with a list of regulations which had never entered into force because no Government had ever provided the Order in Council for it. So, actually, I think it\u2019s a sensible thing to provide, that the remainder of that can come into force by Order in Council but have a fall-back date as well so that the Act\u2019s not languishing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EIt is two reasons, mainly domestic. So one is to provide Police the time to operationalise some of the changes they\u2019ll need to make. The other is that to meet all our international obligations, we need to deposit the instrument of accession, and you can only deposit the instrument of accession after the instrument is passed. So after the bill proceeds through the Parliament to its Royal assent\u2014that\u2019s the instrument of accession\u2014that gets deposited, and so there needs to be some time built in to allow for that process to come into play as well. So it is part of that first one, part of that second one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EBut, essentially, the reason why the gap is a little bit long\u2014before October\u2014is to give Police sufficient time. They\u2019re pretty certain they will have it done by October, because that\u2019s the date the Act will come into force, but they want a little bit of time before operationalising some of those things. But for things that the Police don\u2019t need time on\u2014you know, everything in clause 3\u2014that will come into force straight away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228e1847986f134c89b22d1aa27ae5dd1a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00228c360bd398c549dbbb8e6810e78207ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c360bd398c549dbbb8e6810e78207ef\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to clause 2 set out on Amendment Paper 333 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022babeabdf173142e582792abe0d98bf0e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b93c252235954bfeba9f18b88ed72cfb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000563\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000564\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022147cd2ef28614d19aad3170ce5f84f36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022147cd2ef28614d19aad3170ce5f84f36\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002204ac906aa1464c9cae3aa150f7f5fd1e\u0022\u003ECrimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220de57ff619cc4eef89bf1c49ac595ccb\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00221674d3847dd14e37944342d3c7630bfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221674d3847dd14e37944342d3c7630bfd\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: I present a legislative statement on the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf60426038804239ba8e9b4f330185fd\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299d4c310f74b4b8ba022f9c5c6fb1164\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve said from day one that victims are our priority; returning them to the heart of our justice system underpins all our work to restore law and order, which we know is working. Stalkers have been able to evade real consequences for their actions for far too long. This bill will create a modern, futureproofed, and truly enforceable stalking and harassment offence to ensure this insidious behaviour no longer goes unpunished.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EAround 600 submitters to the Justice Committee added their voices to last year\u2019s petitioners\u2019 call for this offence. I thank all of them and the committee itself for their contributions to this bill. The full list of the committee\u2019s changes is available in their report. The Government supports all of these changes. Today, I will speak to the prominent issues and recommendations raised in the report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ETo be convicted of the new offence, the prosecution will need to prove the person engaged in a pattern of behaviour towards their victim. The committee recommended a broader definition for the pattern of behaviour. The offence will now require two specified acts within two years, rather than three specified acts within one year. This broadens the pattern of behaviour by capturing fewer acts across a longer time frame. I agree that this change will better address strategies such as anniversary-based stalking. It will also make it harder for stalkers to work around the law. I\u2019m satisfied that it will keep the offence proportionate to the significant maximum penalty of five years\u2019 imprisonment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EA further recommendation made by the committee was to add doxing to the list of \u201Cspecified act\u201D. Doxing is the publication of personal information such as addresses or contact details, including whether a stalker claims to be their victim. It encourages third parties to contact, threaten, and intimidate the victim. Stalkers can now abuse the reach and anonymity of the internet, making this addition an essential part of a modern and futureproofed offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe committee also added two further important amendments to the bill: firstly, to allow the courts to order the destruction of intimate visual recordings\u2014this will ensure that stalkers cannot continue to breach their victims\u2019 privacy after being convicted of the new offence\u2014secondly, to allow a court to make restraining firearm prohibition and Harmful Digital Communications Act orders, where a defendant is discharged without convictions. This will protect victims even if the perpetrator does not receive a conviction. The committee also made a small change to the bill to clarify the stalking aggravating factor. This will make it easier to understand and better reflect the cumulative nature of stalking and harassment harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019d like to speak about some common concerns raised by the submitters. Submitters were concerned that the bill may not capture some stalking and harassment behaviours. I want to assure the public that the offence captures a comprehensive set of behaviours; the language in this bill is carefully drafted to do so\u2014for example, submitters suggested that making threats may not be captured as a \u201Cspecified act\u201D. This behaviour is captured by the broad specified act of contacting or communicating, including threats made over the internet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EOthers were concerned that the bill may not capture leaving offensive material where the victim will find it. This will also be captured by the contacting or communicating part as the bill recognises that this may happen indirectly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI want to clarify the mental element of the offence, the mens rea. The mental element will be satisfied if the stalker knows their behaviour is likely to cause fear or distress to the victim. This is drafted to capture stalkers\u2019 many motivations and reflect the offence\u2019s significant penalty. Submitters were concerned that the mental element might only be met if the stalker or harasser admits to their knowledge. I\u2019m pleased to assure the public that the bill does not require this. Knowledge is frequently proved in criminal cases based on other evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EFor the new offence, this might simply be a stalker or harasser continuing their behaviour despite text messages from the victim telling them that they are scared or distressed. Similarly, the committee heard concerns that a police notice will be required to prove the mental element of the offence. Again, this is not the case. A notice is a tool to encourage the stalker to stop and assist the prosecution by creating a presumption of knowledge for further behaviour. However, it is not required to establish a mental element.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud to bring this bill to the House today. The bill establishes a modern offence to hold stalkers accountable and to protect communities. The bill creates powerful tools like the police notice system, to create a practical pathway for enforcement, unlike its predecessor. The offence is not an empty threat. In short, this bill will contribute to the Government\u2019s commitment to ensure that there are 2,000 fewer victims of serious violent crime by 2030.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EAgain, I\u2019d like to thank everybody who has contributed to this bill so far\u2014the petitioners, the committee, and the submitters. I\u2019ve got a special thankyou for those who shared their own experiences of stalking and harassment with the committee. Your courage is making New Zealand a safer place. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022feb579935a1742e0acefce58a413402e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022feb579935a1742e0acefce58a413402e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion will be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022281ea062214847f1a169fe3985c28d69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022281ea062214847f1a169fe3985c28d69\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the ability to take a call on the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill. First and foremost, it\u2019s important that we acknowledge the reason this legislation came about, and it was the murder of Farzana Yaqubi, who lost her life at the end of 2022 as a result of being repetitively stalked, to the point where she lost her life. Farzana went to the New Zealand Police and, for a number of reasons, those complaints were not taken seriously. The Independent Police Conduct Authority ruled that more should have been done, and one of the considerations was that if there was a specific offence for stalking, then action may well have been taken in this instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAs a result of that, when I was the Minister for Justice, I took policy to the 2023 election that would create a new and separate offence for stalking in New Zealand. Once in Opposition, that same legislation was taken and put into a member\u2019s bill that was then put into the ballot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAt this point in time, it is important to note that National said that it was not a priority at that time. Paul Goldsmith himself stated that it was not a priority to progress legislation. He said that we have clear commitments that we\u2019ve made and we\u2019re working through and we can\u2019t do everything all at once. But what changed his mind, and what changed this Government\u2019s mind, to take action instead of not taking action, I believe, was the thousands of people who signed a petition and brought it here to the steps of Parliament, demanding that this Government took action and made stalking a criminal offence in New Zealand. It was on the steps of Parliament, when that petition was handed over, that Paul Goldsmith committed to introducing legislation as a priority and within a year. So I commend the Government for taking a change and actually doing the right thing. I also commend all of those people who signed that petition and who brought pressure upon this Government to make this law change that we are debating today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI would also like to acknowledge all of the submitters who came to the Justice Committee and told quite harrowing personal stories of their own experiences of stalking, either immediately impacting them or people within their family. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the Coalition for Safety of Women and Children and also Aotearoa Free From Stalking. Both those groups have been staunch and tireless advocates for getting this law change, and they have been so helpful to continue to push for the changes that we\u2019re seeing today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EOne of the most important changes that was made at select committee, I would like to highlight, was widening the definition of \u201Ccriminal stalking\u201D. What the Government initially brought in the first reading, under the definition, was a minimum of three stalking-type acts in a period of 12 months. This was quite different to the member\u2019s bill that I had put forward, and members of those advocacy groups and those within the sector all thought that that would not be adequate to be able to meet the needs of those people who were being stalked, or to be able to bring a successful prosecution. There were real concerns that someone who had been to prison for a period of a year or more would be outside of that time frame and it wouldn\u2019t capture those people, and particularly for premeditated crimes such as stalking, where there\u2019s a lot of planning and consideration, that the stalker would potentially wait for just over one year to then do another act and evade being prosecuted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe other point that was made through the select committee process was that quite often, stalkers celebrate anniversaries. Whether it\u2019s a time when people were previously together, a birthday, or a special event, these are commonly times where there are either gifts or extra messages or things brought upon that date, so having that longer than 12 months was essential. So I was really heartened that towards the end of that period, the Government members agreed to making that change, and that change is a minimum of two acts, not three, and over a period of 24 months, so a longer period of time. This has been welcomed by advocates in the sector, and it shows that at select committee, when we work constructively, when we look at evidence, and when we hear from people in New Zealand, we can actually make constructive, well-meaning, and good law here in this Parliament. It\u2019s quite heartening to see that. The comment that we\u2019ve received from people in the sector is that after that change, \u201CThis version is a better, safer, and more victim-centred bill than the original.\u201D So I\u2019m really pleased to have pushed hard for those changes and to see them coming forward and being made law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EHowever, there are still some concerns in this version of the bill. It is around those elements that were discussed at the first reading, around the mens rea, or the intent\u2014the mental element to prove this crime. Currently, it must be proven that the stalker acted knowingly, that their behaviour is likely to cause fear or distress to their target, so it means that the stalker has to know that their behaviour is likely to cause fear or distress. Proving that intent of someone who is lying or is genuinely deluded about how another person feels about them may well be extremely difficult to prove in a court of law, and this is concerning. We heard quite good evidence in the select committee that there are people who are engaged in stalking behaviour who genuinely believe that the victim wants their advances, that they want their attention, and they visualise that they are reciprocating those actions. So trying to prove that someone acted knowingly, that their behaviour is likely to cause fear or distress, when that person themselves is deluded as to the other person\u2019s affections may well prove to be very difficult for prosecution in a court of law. We believe it would be better if the bill stated that the stalker knows or ought to know that their behaviour is likely to cause fear or distress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI would like to outline that I intend to bring some amendments that propose to make those changes, which I will speak to at the committee stage. The Government to date has been constructive and very willing to engage on making this law as good as it possibly can be, and I look forward to potentially seeing some additional changes at the committee stage. That would mean that those advocates in the sector who understand, at the coalface, the difficulty of this area, who have given that very clear advice right through the select committee stage, and all of those submitters who support this change\u2014if the Government was able to make that change at the committee of the whole House stage, that would make this bill work even better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI would like to conclude by stating that stalking affects far more lives than we ever see. It\u2019s an invisible crime to so many people going about their daily lives, but it is actually a living hell for, particularly, women who get repeatedly put into a position where they live in fear. Those tactics that are repeatedly taken out are designed to intimidate and designed to make people\u2019s lives an absolute misery. They\u2019re an extension of family violence or control over others. That is completely unacceptable. Women deserve to live in New Zealand free from fear, free from violence, and to go about their daily lives without having someone else stalking every moment of their day and using every medium possible to make them feel that fear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis bill is an excellent start at not only introducing a framework in our legal system, where people can be prosecuted and held to account in a court of law, but also sending a strong message out there to act as a deterrent. It is one area where I believe that this actually can work\u2014that we will not tolerate people who intimidate others, that we will not tolerate this type of behaviour in our community, and we\u2019ll stand together to make sure that our families are safe and that we can hold our heads up in New Zealand and feel proud that we live in a violence-free and a threat-free community. This bill is only a small step, but I hope it will go a long way in changing the culture, which causes so much harm in our communities. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c03f88a777c0480daead3828310acecf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c03f88a777c0480daead3828310acecf\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the Green Party to speak in support at the second reading of the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill, because, right now, in Aotearoa, stalking is not a criminal offence. We are working together across the House to change this, because stalking is horrific, it ruins lives, it is dangerous, and we must have protections in place for women in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EOf course, I first have to acknowledge the survivors who both pushed for this legislation and who came forward during the select committee process, especially those who shared their lived experience with us at select committee. In June last year, a petition to make stalking illegal was presented on the stairs of this Parliament. A sign that I remember said, \u201CStalking is terrifying and dangerous\u201D, and that is something that has stayed with me throughout this process. I do also want to acknowledge the Hon Ginny Andersen for listening to our communities and for pushing to bring this legislation to the House. The bravery of speaking out about truly traumatic experiences has shaped this bill for the better, and the Green Party supports the intent of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EStrengthening our laws to better respond to stalking is long overdue. For too long, our legal system has failed to capture the reality of what stalking looks like and the fear it causes and the lives it ruins. This bill marks an important step towards addressing that gap. However, while we do support the direction of the legislation, we, in the Greens, believe further amendments are required to ensure it is both effective and survivor-centred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EOf course, we first acknowledge and welcome the select committee decision to reduce the threshold for a stalking offence from three times in one year to two times in two years. This was a real worry for survivors and advocates when the bill was first brought to the House. Overwhelmingly, most stalkers are ex-partners, and we heard at select committee the harrowing stories that a common excuse used by stalkers is anniversaries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ENow, Zeni Gibson had been stalked and sadistically harassed\u2014and I quote her here: \u201CIn the scheme of stalking, 12 months is really no time at all. And so, in those earlier years, the person who stalked me, he\u2019d pop up and harass me before disappearing for months. In the case of those being stalked by ex-partners, there might be anniversaries that trigger these stalking behaviours.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThis change to the definition brings New Zealand more in line with comparable international jurisdictions like Australia and the UK. It reflects what survivors and advocates have long been calling for and recognises the serious harm that can be caused after just one or two incidents. Requiring three separate acts to even be considered for legal protection would have been out of step with reality and furthered the traumatisation. I acknowledge that the select committee went back and forth, and we really were careful to get that advice from our officials and from advocates in the community. I really commend the select committee for listening and making this really important change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EMore changes to the definition of \u201Cstalking\u201D are required. Specifically, the Greens, alongside leaders in the community, are concerned with the current wording, which outlines the requirement of a person to know that their conduct is likely to cause fear or distress. In reality, that could mean survivors are left unprotected unless a perpetrator has received a formal police warning or that person explicitly admits they know their conduct is likely to cause distress, and that is a high threshold, which has a lot of gaps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EAt the select committee stage, we heard that many victims make their distress clear\u2014sometimes through a message, sometimes in person, often in fear\u2014yet, under this bill, that might not be enough, and that is unacceptable. People should not have to endure further harm just to satisfy a legal technicality. The Greens believe that the bill should adopt an ought-to-have-known standard where someone may be liable if they knew or ought to have known that their behaviour would likely cause fear or distress. This would bring us into line with other jurisdictions and better reflect community experiences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ENow, through this time, I have learnt so much, and I have to say thank you to Leonie Morris from Aotearoa Free From Stalking, based at the Auckland Women\u2019s Centre, for her life\u2019s work in protecting women and working on this stalking and harassment legislation. I also have to acknowledge the Coalition for the Safety of Women and Children and Awatea Mita, who has taught me so much with her gentle ways and her fierce advocacy for survivors and women. Those one-on-one sessions that she has and the way that she holds people and makes them feel heard and safe is so, so important. I also want to talk to acknowledge the Fired Up Stilettos, a stripper-led labour rights movement, formed in response to years of injustice in strip clubs, who advocate for sex workers. Sex workers and strippers are not convinced that this legislation will protect them. We know that they have been ignored by Police and the system over and over again when they have been harassed and stalked, and I want them to know that we are listening to you, we hear you, and we want to have laws that protect you and make you feel safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the wh\u0101nau of Farzana Yaqubi, who lost her life to murder because she was not taken seriously by police and because this law was not in place. I hope that her family feels some solace that we are bringing this law. I wonder to myself if Farzana, if she had lived, would have been submitting at the select committee. You know, today is for people like Farzana, for people like Zeni, and for the countless others who haven\u2019t come forward, because they don\u2019t feel like it\u2019ll make any difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI want to talk as well about how punitive measures are not enough. We need to stop the harm from happening before it occurs, and that means that we have a responsibility to ensure that this legislation is part of a broader system that supports rehabilitation and addresses the root causes of stalking behaviour. Experts and survivors were crystal clear that access to mental health and addiction support, early intervention, and stalking-specific support services are essential to ensuring that the harm is not even a thing and that it is stopped before harm even occurs. The dynamics and drivers of stalking are vast and different; so too must be the solutions. As such, the Greens support embedding stalking-specific education and intervention into existing community-based rehabilitation programmes, including those run by prevention-focused sexual violence services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThe Greens will continue to support this bill through the remaining readings, but we urge the Government and this House to adopt the amendments that have come from survivors, that have come from experts, and that have come from advocates\u2014the amendments that I\u2019ve outlined here today. We will bring those to the committee of the whole House stage. Women should be able to live their lives without fear, and, today, this one is for all those survivors and victims who didn\u2019t have this law and for all those survivors and victims who this law will protect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00226d053a478b2f4d168fed0f8ff1cbcc11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d053a478b2f4d168fed0f8ff1cbcc11\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a real privilege to be able to stand here today and speak on behalf of the ACT Party in support of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve spoken to this issue a couple of times in this House, but what I would like to say is that often somebody in the general public listening into Parliament and hearing about legislation in this House may not understand the technicalities of the law itself. What I\u2019d like to do is not go over again what previous speakers have spoken to, in the context of the legalities of this bill, but speak about what does this mean in reality for an average New Zealander who is suffering at the hands of a person who is stalking them\u2014what does the reality of this look like for a victim out in our communities who has often felt very distressed, alone, and quite frustrated at the lack of response when they\u2019re going through this. So, Mr Speaker, if you will allow me, I will go a little bit into what this looks like for a person on the ground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve seen firsthand not only from speaking to community organisations in the role that I have as Minister for the Prevention of Family Harm and Sexual Violence but also before coming to this House, growing up in an environment where you witness in your community how this affects those that you care about, your friends, sometimes family\u2014and, sometimes, friends and family can also be the perpetrator. So it can often be very difficult to come to terms with how to deal with this on both sides. I\u2019ve seen firsthand that this doesn\u2019t just damage the immediate victim that is going through the stalking process and going through the process of trying to seek help; it affects everybody around them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EOne of those that it affects the most is often children who are witness to not only the behaviours but are witness to a parent or somebody they love going through the worst moments of their life, and having to do what many children shouldn\u2019t have to do, and that is grow up very fast and, often, become support people for those victims. It can be very distressing for those children and young people witnessing that, growing up and dealing with things that they really shouldn\u2019t have to, and their innocence being taken away from them by the act of a stalker. I think I\u2019ve said this before, but it\u2019s very relevant\u2014when you see the light disappear from the eyes of a victim who has lost hope of tomorrow being a better day, who has lost hope of somebody coming to rescue them, who has lost hope of the very people who are supposed to come and support them, not having the tools in place to be able to do anything about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EWe often talk about victims or people speaking about how the police have often ignored harassment or not been there or shown up to some of these incidences, but we must be fair here; often police were policing with one hand tied behind their back. They didn\u2019t have the tools to enable them to enforce and actually do something about it, because it actually wasn\u2019t against the law. Many stalkers are very smart, understand the laws, and understand how far they can push that boundary where nothing could happen to them. An example of that would be they could stand at the top of your driveway, knowingly intimidate you, stand there all night long, but as long as they don\u2019t step foot on your property, they\u2019re not breaking any laws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThis is unacceptable and we as a Government have made a commitment to focus on victims and to make sure that our communities are safer\u2014not only for women, I might add; many men also suffer from being victims of harassment and stalking behaviours. We must start acknowledging that this is a problem. Unless we speak about these problems, we can never solve them. Unfortunately, this is a bigger problem that many people actually realise in this country. I\u2019m hoping today will be the day that we have shown we\u2019ve put our foot down and that enough is enough and that we\u2019re not going to tolerate this any more. People deserve to live a safe, happy life in this country, with the support of people in this House to help enable that to happen, but in order to do that, Police have needed some tools, courts have needed some tools, and we are implementing that today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI feel very honoured and privileged to be in a position to be able to stand here and actually speak to these issues. Often, I get asked, \u201CWhy did you put your hand up to come to Parliament?\u201D This is one of those reasons; where we as a Parliament, across both sides of the House, can come together and create a piece of legislation that will better hundreds, if not thousands, of lives moving forward. It\u2019s an absolute honour and a privilege to stand here today and to be part of that process, knowing that we in this House have made some contribution for a better life for many women and men going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI would like to thank the committee members, the submitters who had the bravery to come forward and speak to often some pretty horrific circumstances, but I\u2019d also like to shout out to those who may not necessarily have felt safe in coming forward and speaking to this issue. What I would like to say is \u201CWe hear you in this place. You do not have to physically come into this House and tell your story, because many brave women came and did that not only for themselves but on behalf of you. They care not only for themselves and what they went through; they don\u2019t want to see it happening to anybody else.\u201D So we hear those who often have felt silenced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EWe hear those who may not have had the opportunity to come forward. We may not even necessarily understand exactly what that might feel like, but many of us have had circumstances where we have witnessed what that pain can feel like and what that absolute\u2014I cannot think of the word, just that absolute frustration of not knowing where to turn to, but now knowing that there is an avenue that you can go down to stop this kind of behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EStalking is unacceptable in any circumstance and I\u2019m hoping that this small but powerful change will make a real difference in the lives of men and women around our country. Thank you very much. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2470b36589741f9845eebc2255906c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2470b36589741f9845eebc2255906c3\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak in support of the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill. I\u2019d first like to acknowledge the Minister for bringing a piece of legislation that is an important step forward in our commitment to reducing the numbers of serious crimes reported, and to demonstrating a strengthening of our law and order and protection for victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThe stalking and harassment bill sounds simple when we talk about it in this House, but the reality is that stalking and harassment places its victims in prison. They are isolated, they are afraid to move about their lives, they are robbed of their liberty, they are robbed of their freedom. Therefore, to talk about it in a term that we use so frivolously\u2014harassing and stalking\u2014it just sounds easy to say, but the reality for the victims is enormous. It is that loss of liberty, that loss of ability to live your life as you should be able to live, and that is why it has been an important piece of legislation to bring forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI would really like to acknowledge the Justice Committee, and I know that there has been thorough and detailed and robust discussions around how to make this piece of law, as it\u2019s brought before the House today, as workable and effective as possible. It is a recognition of all of the committee in the way they have engaged and recognised some vulnerabilities where the law can be strengthened and have addressed that by extending the time allocation and reducing the number of instances under which the offence can be founded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EWhat is important, I think, is to recognise that, most importantly, this piece of legislation is an empowerment. It is a protection and an empowerment to those who feel vulnerable and feel isolated and feel imprisoned in their lives. It is a strong message to say we are taking action and, as has been said repeatedly in this House, we are listening. The process of operationalising a piece of law for police, for enforcement agencies, for the courts is a difficult one, and I think the presenting of this legislation with an opportunity to consider and continue to review its impact and effectiveness is a good initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThis is a long time coming and I can appreciate the frustration for those who have lobbied to have their voice heard. There are complex areas of law when we\u2019re dealing about the victims and vulnerabilities and we have prioritised\u2014I think, rightly so\u2014the relationship offences. But what we\u2019re dealing with here is offences that occur when no relationship exists, as well as when a relationship exists\u2014when there is only imagined connections and imagined relationships. That makes it all the more horrifying for those who are trying to live a free and happy life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI think this is recognising that we are offering, here, a tool of empowerment. We are offering, here, another opportunity to hear those that are vulnerable and made vulnerable by those who have such bad intentions. I am very grateful for the legislation being put forward today. I\u2019m grateful for the opportunity to speak on this important legislation. I look forward to it working its way through to becoming law and that we can finally take some action against the perpetrators of this type of offending. I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022853fe28cf0ad4d34a90366a55b38f0ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022853fe28cf0ad4d34a90366a55b38f0ee\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u00223ea1c3cf04ab4f5da3bc11a781e33cca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ea1c3cf04ab4f5da3bc11a781e33cca\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. Similarly to a bill that I spoke to\u2014it feels probably too familiar\u2014just last week, around violence and domestic violence and family violence, and so it feels like some of this might feel and sound similar. It does reflect\u2014again, I think I said this last week\u2014Judge Recordon, when we were first trying to find out, and he said in court that day, \u201CSo what is this thing, family violence? We have to really figure it out because we don\u2019t know what we\u2019re looking at.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EI reflect again in this instance what that means in terms of stalking, because then that became a thing. Once you name something like this, you can figure it out. So if that\u2019s the word, how do we identify it, and how do we know it and how do we manage it and how do we keep people safe? Those are the reflections as I speak today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EE mihi atu ana ki te wh\u0101nau o Farzana. Aroha nui ki a r\u0101tou m\u014D ake tonu atu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E[I acknowledge the Farzana family. Much love to them, for ever.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWhen you say that name, and others, by the way, we then realise where we failed and where this House failed to not do more, and, generally, that seems to be because we don\u2019t listen well enough. We don\u2019t appreciate and recognise the truth when it\u2019s spoken, and we carry on as if our own ideas are the only ones. So e mihi atu ana ki t\u0113r\u0101 wh\u0101nau [I acknowledge that family]. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EYoung women are entitled to feel safe\u2014all women are entitled to feel safe. W\u0101hine M\u0101ori, mokopuna M\u0101ori, k\u014Dtiro M\u0101ori, tam\u0101hine are entitled to feel safe, and they should, but we do not and they do not. This is why this is good\u2014an idea still growing, I would say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EMuch of my discussion\u2014again, as you\u2019ve heard me say before\u2014is having worked in this field for a very long time and understanding the harm and the tragedy and the things that women suffer\u2014different to men; that they suffer it differently to men: deeply, longer, and more enduring. I\u2019m amazed sometimes how tough and brave we are when those things are forced upon us on a daily basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThis point to require the offender to have known the behaviour was likely to cause fear or distress, it\u2019s a dangerous but not\u2014it\u2019s a dumb thing. It\u2019s a dumb thing. To think that you\u2019re going to get any sense of a smart thinking-through consideration from an offender who\u2019s already been doing the dumbest things. To think that you can leave that idea with them and go, \u201COK, do you get this? Do you understand the harm? Do you understand the trauma?\u201D Look, I get that what we\u2019re trying to do is to improve it, but I don\u2019t know whether our swings are big enough, to be completely honest. I don\u2019t know how long the harm has to be sustained on women, and therefore the children of these women, right? How long do we have to wait for this? I think bigger swings and I think braver moves is my view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThe other part of that is that, again, it minimises\u2014and I mentioned this last week\u2014the truth, because, too often, women in situations such as these are not taken seriously. Members will know, and our historical literature shows that we were called crazy and neurotic, right? The minute those words were used\u2014and it shows in a lot of our history that when you\u2019re called neurotic, who\u2019s going to take you seriously? \u201CShe\u2019s just another crazy wahine.\u201D, right? So who\u2019s really going to listen and take one seriously to get it to the point of this? Well, clearly Ginny Andersen, the Minister of Justice, and others in this House\u2014particularly the women others in this House\u2014have done that, and I recognise you and I see you in this instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m going to speak to the boys and the men in this House and say that, OK guys, you need to buck up and speak up and actually have a look at your own, work on your own\u2014work on your lot; on your men lot and your boys lot\u2014because we\u2019re doing all the work. I love some of you, at least, obviously\u2014as I do in this House\u2014but do the work and do the work with your men, do it for them. Do it sometimes, like a real damned good hug\u2014but do the work so we don\u2019t have to carry the load and keep doing the work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EI support this, obviously. I support the smart, good, full-hearted women and the full-hearted men in this and I honour it and I commend it. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u0022db878df737124f0b9bfdadc391401ffc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db878df737124f0b9bfdadc391401ffc\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E \u201CGreg has told me how he is going to rape and kill me endlessly. It is devastating that until he acts on this, I am not protected under New Zealand law.\u201D These are the words of Zeni Gibson and, because of the way that our laws are currently written, she had and continues to be violently stalked by a complete stranger that she had a handful of polite, civil interactions with\u2014a smile, a nod, a quick hello\u2014here and there when she was 16, which turned into a full-blown intense fixation. This happened just down the road from where we sit today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EHe used every method he could to stalk Zeni. He harassed her social media accounts, he sent her persistent emails, which could be more than 1,000 emails in one week. When she blocked him, he would go on to websites to send newsletter sign-up forms and she would receive emails that said, \u201CHi, Zeni, check your message requests.\u201D; \u201CHello, hey, in case you didn\u2019t see the other messages.\u201D; \u201CKia ora. Cut your throat.\u201D; \u201CHey, I need to slice your smile off of your face.\u201D; and even this last one: \u201C43 [redacted street] rape your Mum.\u201D, which was her mother\u2019s address, which he somehow got a hold of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThis gives you a brief insight into the graphic, sexually violent stalking that Zeni had to endure, but does not even begin to touch on the real-life actions, including this person putting human faeces in her family\u2019s mailbox. All of this unpunishable by our law, unless he acted on his heinous promises. \u201CIt\u2019s hard to explain how insidious and all-consuming stalking is. Greg was with me while I was eating dinner with mum; while I was showering; while I was driving with my friends. I couldn\u2019t lock my door and feel safe. He was there, wherever I was, every day, describing my sexual torture in bloody detail.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI have spoken to Zeni over the last eight months, over Instagram messages. I\u2019ve spoken with her family members and her testimony brought me to tears because I know firsthand, as a young woman in this place, that rape and death threats and stalking literally follows you everywhere you go. Many women know how this feels because, in this day and age with the internet, Zeni is but one of many women who have contacted me and shared their stories with me. Thanks to working with Zeni, I was able to get New Zealand Transport Agency to enable an email confirmation as part of their sign-up functions; they have removed the free-type name field and their newsletters no longer address recipients by name. Sir Brian Roche, our Public Service Commissioner, has also engaged with me on public websites being used to stalk others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI have many complex views on this bill, but my major two points boil down to this. First, we rely on the Police getting this right. In Zeni\u2019s case, the police made a number of mistakes that could have led to her death, including delivering her stalker with a notice which restricted him to enter the suburb of Mornington where she had just moved into a new flat, exposing her location. These mistakes cost lives. Farzana Yaqubi, who my colleague Kahurangi was talking about, was a 21-year-old woman in Auckland who was stabbed to death while getting off the bus, after a litany of police failures, as outlined by the Independent Police Conduct Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI have met with the Minister of Police to bring these issues to his attention and I am hopeful that police notification after just one incident of stalking will have the same effect that it has had around the world in different international jurisdictions. Sadly, a stern warning from a man in a uniform with status is more authoritative than a woman who says no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThe second point is that imprisonment cannot be the only tool to eliminate stalking. In Zeni\u2019s own words, \u201CI completely reject the conversation around harsher penalties. I believe that my experience brings to light a lapse in access to mental health support. At the same time, I believe there needs to be a better way to protect victims of harassment and stalking and to prevent this from happening in the first place.\u201D For some stalkers, imprisonment terms may make them more violent, more hostile, while they become even more fixated. An example of what that could look like in prevention is giving greater resources to the Fixated Threat Assessment Centre, who are a preventative service focusing and specialising on fixated people who have an obsessional preoccupation with a person, place, or cause which is pursued to an irrational degree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EFinally, we must believe people, we must believe and protect women, and a reflection that we might not be there yet is the fact that it took decades of campaigning to get here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u002252040f39853b46479fce854f191ffb64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252040f39853b46479fce854f191ffb64\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise in support of the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill at the second reading. I\u2019d like to start off by saying rest in peace, Farzana Yaqubi, Allah yerhamik.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EFarzana\u2019s violent death by her stalker has been the torch of change flashed in New Zealand\u2019s eyes, and it has turned tragedy into action. I\u2019m really proud of the fact that, through the select committee process, we have, as has been mentioned, strengthened the bill to crack down harder on offenders and would-be offenders, particularly by changing the number of acts as to when the law will be triggered to two in 24 months. Victims are finally being put first. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227de2f274b4374c32881c540f7936e6eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227de2f274b4374c32881c540f7936e6eb\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. First of all, I do want to absolutely acknowledge the serious harm that stalking causes. I just want to recognise that this is part of a significant shift in our law that has happened over the past few years\u2014that, for a long time, our law really focused on physical harm, and it was very rare indeed that psychological harm to another person was seen as giving rise to any kind of criminal responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis is a further extension of things like the offences under the Harassment Act and the Harmful Digital Communications Act. I guess I want to take a slightly legalistic approach, because it does throw up some real challenges about how we approach that. Before we do that, I want to also recognise the advocacy around this from numerous people and groups\u2014far too many to name\u2014and the fact that their work has led to this legislation coming before the House. I think it\u2019s really heartening, and those people can feel rightly proud.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI also want to recognise Ginny Andersen\u2019s work in this space. She also worked tirelessly with those advocates, and, in taking action, including drafting her own member\u2019s bill, and I want to be clear that but for that member\u2019s bill, the Minister of Justice would have continued to say that this isn\u2019t a priority. It\u2019s a really good example of how, in Opposition, we can have change and create change. But good on the Government, and I want to also recognise one other thing: as we sat around that select committee table, we all agreed in principle that this was a terrible state of affairs that needed to change, and we worked on making it better, and made substantial changes to the legislation as it went through the committee. So all of those are good things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe stalking offence that this creates\u2014I want to point one thing out\u2014is a very serious offence. The maximum imprisonment for it is five years, so it puts it very much at the upper end, not up with serious violent offending, but very much in the upper echelons of offending. So we\u2019ve got to be really clear that, yes, engaging in harassing or stalking behaviour is very bad, but we need to set the threshold for what that is, at a level that is commensurate with putting someone who\u2019s a serious offender in jail for five years. It\u2019s not a trivial offence; it\u2019s a serious offence. So we need to recognise that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIf you look at the conduct\u2014what\u2019s the technical term?\u2014the \u201Cspecified acts\u201D, some of them are obviously troubling: loitering and following home, or obstructing a person; things like that. But equally, others are things that people would do not as a matter of course, but things that nasty people would simply do to be nasty, such as sending electronic messages, or the like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why there\u2019s quite an interesting provision here, and it\u2019s quite a challenge, and that\u2019s the mental state required. People who engage in stalking behaviour sometimes have a tenuous grasp on reality, you know? Sometimes, they are of a view that what they\u2019re doing is either not a bad thing or will get them back together with an ex-partner, or something of that ilk. The test is that there\u2019s a pattern of behaviour, and the person engaging in that behaviour knows that it\u2019s likely to cause fear or distress. So it\u2019s that \u201Cknows\u201D\u2014it\u2019s not \u201Cought to know\u201D, or \u201Ca reasonable person would know\u201D; it\u2019s a test of actual knowledge, and I think that\u2019s something that bears further discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons in new subsection (3) of the key section there: you have a warning framework where a police officer can go to a person who\u2019s engaged in this behaviour and say\u2014and Tamatha Paul just referred to this\u2014\u201CHey, look, what you\u2019re doing isn\u2019t OK, it is causing distress, and it would be a stalking event. Now that you know this, you\u2019re on notice.\u201D So when that happens, people can\u2019t then turn around and go, \u201CI thought she liked it when I sent her these sexual messages.\u201D, or whatever it might be, when they\u2019ve been clearly told that that\u2019s not the case. So that\u2019s why that is in there. That\u2019s an important part of the knowledge element. But I think we need to discuss that knowledge element\u2014mens rea, if you want to use the legal term\u2014a little bit more, and ask the question in this House whether we\u2019ve struck the right balance there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI do want to say this about this piece of legislation: we agree on this side of the House that creating a stalking offence is the right thing to do. But let\u2019s not kid ourselves that it will solve the problem. The problem runs much deeper, and we don\u2019t effect societal change by creating a criminal offence. We don\u2019t effect a change in the way people see what appropriate behaviour and what a healthy relationship is and how to behave when the world doesn\u2019t turn out the way they want, by creating a criminal offence. I think, as leaders in this House and elsewhere, we need to also be clear that we\u2019re leading more than just a legislative change but also a cultural change, but that will be how we keep women in particular safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other thing I\u2019d note is this bill actually deals with some other things that are being bandied around in this House, and in subsection (2) of the proposed section 216P, dealing with specified acts, it talks about the use of artificial intelligence. I know there\u2019s been a lot of discussion around deep fakes. I\u2019m always concerned when we define things too narrowly and we end up having a long list of things that are included and things are always falling outside of it. I think this legislation would capture the use of deep fakes as a tool of harassment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of the deep fakes in the member\u2019s bill that has been bandied around in this House, the bill actually talks about sexualised images. Deep fakes can be offensive without being sexualised, they can be harassing without being sexualised: they could be an artificial image of the stalker and the victim that\u2019s totally fake. If that was posted on Facebook or simply emailed to the victim, that is stalking and harassing behaviour, and it is captured by this definition. That\u2019s one of the reasons I think this is quite well drafted, because the prohibited behaviour is drafted quite widely, and the test for the behaviour isn\u2019t exactly what you do; it\u2019s the effect that it has. There\u2019s two elements to it: that it has an effect of causing fear or distress, and that it was known to do that. It doesn\u2019t even have to have been intended to do that, as long as you knew that that was what it was going to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI think in taking that approach, saying, \u201CIf you engage in a behaviour which you know causes distress, that\u2019s stalking; here are some of the kinds of behaviours.\u201D\u2014in a very open-ended way\u2014that\u2019s actually a really good way to draft it. It\u2019s not good drafting it like \u201CYou can\u2019t stand outside someone\u2019s home. You can\u2019t send deep-fake images. You can\u2019t send angry texts.\u201D, because a list like that\u2019s never going to work. So what we have here is a good piece of legislation; it\u2019s not perfect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other thing I\u2019d just say as a closing remark is that we have a patchwork of legislation in this space: we have domestic violence legislation, protection orders, the Harassment Act, the Harmful Digital Communications Act, intimidation under the Summary Offences Act, and now we have stalking Under the Crimes Act. It\u2019s not satisfactory, and, at some point, we\u2019re going to have to sit down and say that we need to think very carefully about wrongdoing which is about harassment, about fear, about intimidation, about coercion and control, and we need to have a carefully thought-out and unified approach to it. But this is one step in that direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u00223e3d36b057cc418abf2cff267fc41654\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e3d36b057cc418abf2cff267fc41654\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I just want to pick up on the comment the last speaker, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, made about effecting change. Ultimately, there are a number of challenges in this space, but, actually, this is a critical step to helping to restore the balance of real consequences for crime. We are not prepared to accept an apologist approach like we saw under the last Government. This bill is about rebalancing law and order issues in this country. I want to thank the Justice Committee for their diligent work and their proposals to amend some of the clauses within this, because, actually, I think they\u2019ve reached a good balance on that. We\u2019ve heard too many sad stories of horrific situations of stalking and harassment, so this bill is a great way to progress that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227d345d7a6f6549859316574dbf6de8cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d345d7a6f6549859316574dbf6de8cd\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022466\u0022 data-id=\u00220d3d84568d1946e084cc1a46bcad3933\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d3d84568d1946e084cc1a46bcad3933\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and speak in favour and support of this very important bill. I\u2019d like to thank the Government for moving this through on the foundations of Ginny Andersen\u2019s advocacy\u2014her tireless advocacy, really\u2014in terms of this area and in terms of other areas relating to sexual violence and intimidation against women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EIn 2022, on 19 December, I was the electorate MP for Upper Harbour and I remember hearing the news that Farzana Yaqubi had been murdered in the electorate. The following day, Ibrahim Omer and I went to the place where she had been murdered, and we walked around the corner to where her house was\u2014it was so close; so impossibly close\u2014and sat for a time with her family before we went to her burial the following day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EThis was a family who were grieving in just the worst kind of way\u2014the absolute worst kind of way. They could not believe that she had been taken from them. But I think they were also really reeling from the fact that she\u2014as they found out later through the Independent Police Conduct Authority process\u2014had made a number of complaints and she had raised these issues and she\u2019d done all the right things. Despite that, she hadn\u2019t had the help that she needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EOn 25 October 2022, Farzana made her first 105 online report to the police and she actually sent screenshots of the messages that had been sent to her; she provided the police with information. On 3\u00A0December 2022, she updated her online report and she told police that she was extremely fearful that the man may pose a threat to her life. On 6\u00A0December, she filed a formal statement at the Henderson Police Station and was told that the file would be forwarded, but, essentially, it hadn\u2019t progressed any further at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EThen on 19\u00A0December, she was murdered. The astonishing loss of life\u2014a young Auckland University of Technology law student\u2014I just find impossible to think about. I do want to acknowledge her family, although what they said to me the day after still rings true: that nothing can be done to bring her back. I think that\u2019s true for every woman who faces violence of this nature, and therefore we must pay attention to all the things that happened before that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EI do think that this legislation is a step in the right direction, but I do think, like other speakers have mentioned, we must continue to monitor it to make sure that it\u2019s operating as it should. We had a number of submitters, including the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists\u2019 submission and WAVES\u2014Waitakere Anti-Violence Essential Services\u2014who argued against that sort of repetitive pattern of behaviour, and that led to a change taken on board by the Justice Committee, which eventually got us to the two Acts in two years. However, as others have spoken to, there remains some dissatisfaction with the mens rea element, which is why Ginny Andersen has put forward her proposed changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EMuch like Duncan Webb has highlighted, the college of psychiatrists suggested that much more needed to be done, and they talked about developing sector guidance, education, resources. They talked about support frameworks for victims. I think about other programmes that are just in sort of seedling stage right now that this whole House needs to get behind in terms of supporting them, because one of our biggest problems is that women often don\u2019t report when they\u2019re subjected to acts of intimidation, stalking behaviour\u2014they simply don\u2019t report. There is a new tool that\u2019s going to be launched in August or September called Tika. It is an app tool where you can register an instance of sexual violence, and if the same individual is identified, it flags that to you so that you can then say, \u201CIt\u2019s not just me. I do want to go ahead and report now.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022466\u0022\u003EI would just strongly, in my final comments, encourage the House that this is an area where we must all continue to work together. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022672d83f524ab41efb67d60f8e77dbb60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022672d83f524ab41efb67d60f8e77dbb60\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u00227aeb9ff128c046d5ac649e39e45a25e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227aeb9ff128c046d5ac649e39e45a25e5\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E I too want to commend the Justice Committee for the substantive changes that they have made in toughening up this stalking legislation. I too, quickly, want to pay tribute to Farzana Yaqubi, the 21-year-old law student whose life was violently cut short on Royal Road, in Massey, in Upper Harbour in 2022. Her death is not in vain. I thank the committee for all its work, and I look forward to the third reading and for this to be enacted. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022c31b62ec06de47a6a228f8e5d2f0649d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c31b62ec06de47a6a228f8e5d2f0649d\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. First of all, I just want to commend the words that I\u2019ve heard from many of the speakers tonight, particularly Vanushi Walters\u2019 account of the terrible story of a woman\u2019s death, because we weren\u2019t adequately addressing this issue. Also, I\u2019m mindful of other members of the House who have spent their lives working in this field, and I just want to acknowledge the very good place that people come from when they look at this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve made here is a difficult change, and we have had a system that\u2019s failed because of some things that are very good in our system\u2014some things where we are trying to make sure that we are always aware of the mens rea in a situation\u2014and it hasn\u2019t worked for us. It\u2019s actually let a whole lot of people down, and we have to be flexible enough to see that our system hasn\u2019t worked and move on from it into a different space. I see this is a well-formed piece of legislation that will need review\u2014we will need to look at it again\u2014but I think it is one where we\u2019re taking stock, and we\u2019re thinking, \u201CWe are a different world.\u201D This was a world where, really, we underestimated the impact of events like this on people, and we did that probably because women didn\u2019t have the power that they should have had in our society. We just weren\u2019t, as a society, aware of the impact it was having on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019m hesitant to use this example because I do not want to underestimate the true cost of this kind of stalking for other people, but I had a touch of this in my own life when I had somebody come to my law firm who had decided to track me down because my husband, in his career, had offended them. They were a member of the Special Air Service, so they had been somebody who was quite capable of killing someone\u2014they\u2019d been imprisoned. They had to close my office as a consequence, and, after several years of phone calls and being very fearful of a situation, I went through the process of standing for Parliament and, lo and behold, guess who turned up! I got that ominous call. It\u2019s a special kind of fear that enters you when you get that call, and it\u2019s because you\u2019ve got children, and you\u2019ve got a whole vulnerability that people just don\u2019t get unless you\u2019re absolutely in those boots. That would have been an example of a situation where it was after a two-year period\u2014in fact, I think it would have been probably more like three years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI think we do have to look at these things from time to time, because we may need to look at the balance between each act being something that, maybe, is lawful but its culmination being something that causes other people deep distress. I think it is very important at the committee stage of this bill that we talk about whether we\u2019ve got that balance right, in terms of the test of knowledge and whether, in fact, we have to take a long, hard look at the area in a pragmatic way and say, \u201CMaybe we need to alter that a little in favour of the victims of this kind of violence.\u201D I think we can underestimate how much fear is part of the psychology of human beings. We need to be aware that people are fearful, and they need to be looked after in that state.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI just want to come back to the situation I went through and talk about one of the things that I think is a very strong part of this particular piece of legislation. That\u2019s the signal to our community that this is just not acceptable\u2014the signal to the perpetrator, and the signal to our police force, because, in the situation that I had, I had a man who\u2019d just been released from prison, my office had been shut down, and the police actually were very dismissive of what was going on. The man was bailed to my area without any regard for the fact that my children and I had to move into another area as a consequence. It was extremely scary. The police officer said to me, at one point, \u201CI saw this man at the Anzac ceremony\u201D\u2014because he\u2019d skipped bail\u2014\u201Cbut I didn\u2019t arrest him.\u201D I just don\u2019t think that that police officer understood the seriousness of what that man was engaged in. And it wasn\u2019t just me; it was also the fact he\u2019d been in prison because he had been very violent to his wife. These things are connected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI think this piece of legislation is the signal; it\u2019s saying, \u201CWe take this stuff seriously.\u201D You may manipulate in this way: you may say that this is just a bunch of flowers. You may say, \u201CI just know your address.\u201D You may say, \u201CI\u2019m just playing around\u201D, with some sort of image on social media. You may say these things, but we don\u2019t believe you. We actually need to believe the people who are fearful\u2014because that\u2019s most of us. Most of us get fearful in those situations. Most of us are vulnerable. Our job as legislators is to make sure we change the norms and values of our society sufficiently when required\u2014when that\u2019s reasonable. It\u2019s reasonable here. It\u2019s reasonable that we look through the bunch of flowers, we look through the texts and the texts and the texts, we look through the violence, and we don\u2019t say, \u201CYou\u2019re being melodramatic.\u201D; we say, \u201CThat kind of threat that makes you frightened, that\u2019s not good enough. You can\u2019t do that.\u201D That is actually going to put into force the support that is the Police, that is the State. We are going to look after our own, and that\u2019s a very, very important symbol. I think that\u2019s the thing that this law has got right. I think it\u2019s sending out that signal. It doesn\u2019t mean that other stuff isn\u2019t important; it absolutely is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to end with talking about the bit that I think\u2019s missing. I\u2019ve picked up the sexual and family violence portfolio for the Labour Party, and I am very concerned that, currently, our sexual and family violence strategy has been prioritised in a way that ignores education. We need proactive education in this country. We need people to know about this law. We need them to know that it\u2019s not acceptable to harass people in this way\u2014that we won\u2019t put up with it. We need them to know that the norms and values of this country have moved. We still have a situation where most women, if you survey them tomorrow, in this country, would not understand or be able to define what sexual abuse is, what rape is. That is where we\u2019re at in this country. We\u2019re not alone; that\u2019s true of most countries. In most countries, that is knowledge that is not yet really assimilated into our populations. We need to put some serious money into educating our population on what we expect of them\u2014what is OK, and what is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThis law could be our chance to do that. We need to make sure that people are aware of where they stand with this law. It\u2019s not just our police force; it\u2019s our population. We need people to understand this, and we know\u2014the science says\u2014if we educate people, if we say it\u2019s not OK to do these things, actually, the population will change in its norms and values, and that\u2019s going to be very important. Our young men need to know about this law. They need to know what\u2019s acceptable and what isn\u2019t. This is one of the things we need, but the other thing we need to do is that sometimes we need to spend some money on areas like this to keep people safe, because that will mean less victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhile there is a hue and cry about wasted spending, I don\u2019t believe that this, in anyone in this House\u2019s opinion, would be a waste of money. There was no money put into the sexual and family violence strategy this time in the Budget. Whether the Labour Party\u2019s in Government or there is another Government, I urge people in this House to take this area seriously. It\u2019s incredibly important that we support this with funding and education, because otherwise this law won\u2019t work. It needs that support. Thank you. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u002255e19803bb3e4f418127520ac83354b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255e19803bb3e4f418127520ac83354b0\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E Every New Zealander deserves to feel safe in their communities and anywhere in New Zealand. Stalking is very scary, and particularly it\u2019s risky for victims and can escalate very quickly to very serious physical harm but also mental harm. I commend those people who have submitted in the submissions but also those who have emailed me your personal stories. We hear you and we feel you, and I have to say I feel you because I\u2019ve also been stalked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003EThat is why a National-led coalition Government is introducing this new stalking and harassment offence in this bill, because we promised to reduce crime, we promised to restore law and order, and we are delivering on our promises to all New Zealanders. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022491861580ed6498f89981a464db163d6\u0022\u003EResponding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227965e8eb4d3e427999e007a51621c988\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaed904ce0c94385acf810f082d06ddd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaed904ce0c94385acf810f082d06ddd\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Lead Coordination Minister for the Government\u2019s Response to the Royal Commission\u2019s Report into Historical Abuse in State Care and in the Care of Faith-based Institutions):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I present a legislative statement on the Responding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283b3e6e7051f49c19bfa467f803a4908\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a9ecb2c0d734fda8428526f3217961b\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Responding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThis bill was introduced on 12 November 2024, the day that the Prime Minister apologised on behalf of the Crown to survivors of abuse and neglect in care. The Government knew that the apology would be hollow without action. This bill is an action that demonstrates our ongoing commitment to respond to the abuse in care royal commission of inquiry. Work on this bill was quickly progressed by the Minister for Children, the Minister of Education, the Minister of Justice, and the Minister of Internal Affairs in response to the royal commission. It\u2019s an example of the cross-Government work to analyse the royal commission\u2019s recommendations and to respond to them. This bill is aligned with several of the royal commission\u2019s recommendations. It directly addresses some of them and addresses the intent of others. The Government is determined to strengthen the safety of children, young people, and adults in State care, now and into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the survivors who shared their experiences with the royal commission, and I also want to acknowledge the survivors who submitted and spoke to the select committee on this bill. They gave important context to the work of the committee. There were 42 individual submitters on the bill\u2014at least seven of whom were survivors. Some were also members of the deaf and disabled community. There were 27 organisations that submitted on the bill. This included organisations with survivors who spoke to the committee during its hearings. Thank you to all of you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI also want to thank the other individuals and organisations that made submissions and contributed to the committee process and to some improvements in the bill. Overall, the sentiment of most of the submitters was in support of the amendment bill, with very few submitting against it entirely. The bill amends four pieces of legislation. The first amendment provides the workforce restrictions in the Children\u2019s Act, preventing people with certain overseas convictions from working with children. The second amendment to the Crimes Act includes a reference to disability in the definition of a \u201Cvulnerable adult\u201D in the Act to make our obligations to disabled people in care explicit. The third amendment is to the Oranga Tamariki Act to change the search powers and clarify the time frame for secure care to improve safety and wellbeing in Oranga Tamariki residences. Finally, the fourth is updating the Public Records Act to encourage improved record-keeping and ensure an appropriate response where poor practice is identified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe bill will strengthen the children\u2019s worker safety regime in the Children\u2019s Act. This change aligns with the royal commission\u2019s recommendation 58. The changes will strengthen protections to safeguard children from potential harm by those working with or caring for them. There was widespread support for this change during the select committee process. No person or organisation submitted against it. Core workers are children\u2019s workers who have primary responsibility for a child while working with or caring for them. Core workers are employed by the State sector or a Government-funded organisation to provide regulated services. Under this bill, it will be unlawful to employ a core worker if they have an overseas conviction for an offence that is equivalent to a New Zealand offence or a conviction for certain offences involving harm against minors in the Prostitution Reform Act. This will mean people who have been convicted overseas for offences of serious harm\u2014including harm against children\u2014cannot be core workers. However, there will be review and appeal rights for people to seek an exemption. This must be on the basis they do not present an undue risk to the safety of children. I\u2019ve directed officials to undertake further work to identify options for improved safety-checking requirements as part of our response to the commission\u2019s recommendations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESafety and wellbeing in secure youth justice residences will be improved by the amendment to the Oranga Tamariki Act authorising universal searches. Currently, visitors, staff, and contractors cannot be searched on entry to these residences. This change enables searching of them for harmful items. Oranga Tamariki will communicate the new search powers to visitors, staff, and contractors so that they understand the new rules when they come into effect. Submitters on the Oranga Tamariki changes supported the introduction of an approved search plan, developed with children and young people, and the removal of the authority to strip-search children and young people in residences. Search plans will now take account of a child or young person\u2019s need and preferences and their experiences. Children and young people will now be able to request that their plans be updated. Doing this aligns with the royal commission\u2019s recommendation 78 to have fit-for-need and individualised care. The changes to the Oranga Tamariki Act will also clarify the maximum time a young person can remain in a secure care unit without judicial oversight. A minor clarifying change to this amendment is also being made as a result of the select committee. To be clear, the first day a child is in secure care is counted as one of the three days they may be in secure care before judicial oversight is required. Oranga Tamariki and the select committee heard from care-experienced young people about these changes. I want to acknowledge and thank them for contributing to the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EAs recommended by the royal commission, the Crimes Act will be amended to add disability to the definition of a \u201Cvulnerable adult\u201D. This change directly responds to recommendation 26 of the royal commission\u2019s final report. In the Crimes Act, someone is a \u201Cvulnerable adult\u201D when they are unable to remove themselves from care. The vulnerability is created by the inability to withdraw from the care or charge of another. It is not about any inherent characteristics of the person in care. The Crimes Act change will make it clear, for those caring for disabled adults, that they have a statutory duty towards them. The royal commission and the select committee heard the concerns raised by the deaf and disabled community about the use of the term \u201Cvulnerable\u201D. The commission recommended the change, understanding these concerns, and the amendment has been supported by the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ECare-experienced people place significant value on information about their time and care. It helps them understand their history, their experiences, and who they are. Many survivors have shared stories about the poor experiences when seeking access to their care records. The select committee heard these stories. They provide important context to the changes being made to the Public Records Act. The bill will introduce new powers for Archives New Zealand and the Chief Archivist to support improvements in record-keeping practices. These changes also received widespread support. There were no submissions that were against the change. Submitters suggested there should be more transparency around the action plans and performance notices that will be put in place using these new powers. A change to the Public Records Act will see these things reported in the Chief Archivist\u2019s annual reports. Public reporting on action plans and performance notices will provide additional incentives for agencies to improve their record-keeping. The committee also heard that powers of the Chief Archivist could be strengthened\u2014for example, by enabling audits of contracted providers. Work to improve record-keeping aligns with recommendations made by the royal commission in both its redress report and its final report. The work is ongoing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThank you to everyone who made a written submission and who spoke to the select committee. This was an important step in the progress of this bill. Thank you to the select committee for their consideration of the bill and for the minor amendments to improve the bill. We appreciated the good-faith engagement on the introduction and first readings of this bill, and we hope this can continue across the House today as I move that this bill will be read for a second time. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b040ed316df4d048f221a1ef5e9fc31\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022441cf5690c024fc49f060942be17b31c\u0022\u003EBudapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill\u2014Green Party Vote\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d088ed10-ea30-49bf-892c-b67c5121038f\u0022 data-id=\u00227d1408ba920b4a19b320cccb1f4ebfb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d088ed10-ea30-49bf-892c-b67c5121038f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d1408ba920b4a19b320cccb1f4ebfb8\u0022\u003EBENJAMIN DOYLE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Apologies for interrupting the speeches this evening. Earlier today, I received leave to record the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s vote in opposition to the first reading of the Budapest Convention and Related Matters Legislation Amendment Bill. I intended to seek leave for 15 votes to be recorded on the second reading of the bill and now seek leave to make that correction and record our opposition to the second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a309d682f4f64e8792c54fb5c5881c31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a309d682f4f64e8792c54fb5c5881c31\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is not. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227db52ea8264043c2b54ca142b09a4ab2\u0022\u003EResponding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b38c92a86df349db943218f451cdab44\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000702\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002284fde29c17df483d891db588ab11221a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284fde29c17df483d891db588ab11221a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, back to the second reading of the Responding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill. The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022776526a5171d40a2a7b0028840fc3b0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022776526a5171d40a2a7b0028840fc3b0e\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. This bill is a missed opportunity. Submitters described this bill as piecemeal tinkering and a squandered opportunity. The hundreds of thousands of people who survived abuse in care have a right to feel disappointment and hurt due to the Government\u2019s lack of action in response to the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care was New Zealand\u2019s largest and most complex public inquiry. Across five years, commissioners heard nearly 3,000 survivor accounts of abuse, neglect, and trauma and conducted wide-ranging, wide-reaching research and analysis. It can\u2019t be said too often that the findings are horrifying. We were together here in this House last November at the first reading of the bill to apologise to survivors for the harm, neglect, and trauma that they experienced at the hands of people who were supposed to provide them with love and care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EAs I said that day: \u201CE kore e taea te hoki ki te whakatika i ng\u0101 h\u0113 kua oti, engari ka taea e m\u0101tou, e t\u0101tou te whakatika ng\u0101 mahi o n\u0101ianei kia kaua rawa an\u014D \u0113nei ng\u0101rara e ngau kino an\u014D i t\u0113tahi \u0101 haere ake nei.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E[\u201CWe will never be able to go back and correct the wrongs that have been committed, but we, all of us, can correct the actions of today so that this horror may never again assault anyone else from now on.\u201D]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThat translation was provided by our wonderful interpreters here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe recommendations from Whanaketia provide a plan of action to correct actions of today so that we can make our country\u2019s care system safer and to stop abuse, neglect, and trauma from ever happening again. Yet this Government has done so little to take up this call to action. Their redress announcement in May this year ignored the fundamental request of survivors and recommendations from the royal commission\u2014that is, that survivors weren\u2019t required to go back to their abuser to seek redress. An independent system was what was called for, not simply funnelling more money into systems that have wronged survivors and continue to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ETheir announcement also completely excluded survivors of abuse, neglect, and trauma in faith-based institutions, again totally ignoring a royal commission recommendation that faith-based institutions were included in the redress system and ignoring the terrible harm that survivors experienced in these institutions. Their response plan kicks the majority of recommendations down the road. The Government has declined to accept, or not even started to consider, 84 of the recommendations, and survivors continue to wait while 38 recommendations are considered further. The Government have only fully accepted 19 of the 207 recommendations in Whanaketia and the He Purapura Ora, he M\u0101ra Tipu report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIn this light, the bill before us offers some small progress, and that\u2019s why Labour supports it, because it is at least some legislative action this Government is taking to address the findings in the royal commission into abuse in State care. We support the removal of strip-searches and the clarification about the use of \u201Csecure\u201D. We also support providing the Chief Archivist with greater powers to enforce record-keeping standards and steps to improve the people working with children. We support those aspects that are in this legislation, yet we have reservations about other aspects of the bill. So we are in a difficult position here tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to start with the fact that there was no proper consultation for this bill. The Minister kept saying that the royal commission itself was good enough consultation, but survivors were not consulted on the royal commission\u2019s recommendations. That is not a criticism of the royal commission; that was not their duty. They were very clear in their recommendations that the development of any redress and the response to recommendations should be done working together with survivors, and that did not occur with this bill. That came through in submissions before our select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThis bill demonstrates why consultation is so important. The select committee process highlighted that the bill will introduce a flawed definition of \u201Cvulnerable adult\u201D. The bill, as it stands, will put a definition in legislation that the disabled community has significant concerns with. The Minister said that the select committee supported these recommendations, but I do note that it was the majority; therefore, the Government members. There were those of us from other parties who had issues with some of the recommendations, including this particular definition. We asked the Minister to pause, to remove that particular provision from the legislation, and to work further on it with the community, and that did not happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s another provision in there that we have a huge issue with, and that\u2019s regarding the use of force in care settings, even if it is limited. The basic fact of the matter is that there should be no need for force, and it shouldn\u2019t be used at all. So putting it into legislation and limiting it to\u2014oh, I think it\u2019s like something \u201Cabsolutely necessary\u201D or words to that effect. That created concern for some of us in the committee. There is a wealth of evidence about de-escalation practices that are effective in managing this type of behaviour. This bill is a missed opportunity to mandate the use of modern approaches to behaviour management that are rehabilitative and not potentially harmful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI will be bringing amendments to the committee stage to address some of the issues that I have spoken to today and others that have been raised by submitters, and we invite the Minister to consider them clearly. One of the issues with putting things through in an omnibus fashion is that of course there are things in here which we support and have no issue with, like the ones that I mentioned at the beginning of my speech. But there are others, due to a lack of consultation or outright concern with and not aligning with the recommendations of the royal commission, that we have issue with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo we are supporting this bill this evening but with those concerns, and we will be bringing forward amendments that we hope the Minister will give proper consideration to in the next stage. Kia ora, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u002210ce04ec74b54ce58dd8088ff8eb07a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210ce04ec74b54ce58dd8088ff8eb07a6\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I start by quoting a survivor of abuse in care, Keith Wiffan: \u201CWe are called survivors, but firstly I would like to acknowledge and honour the very many who have not survived\u2014their families and wh\u0101nau\u2014many taking their own lives, many having their lives shortened by the serious health issues related to being abused in care, many not surviving the ill treatment. Their spirits are with us today.\u201D Abuse in care \u201Chas ripped families and communities apart, trapping many into a life of prison incarceration, leaving many uneducated and ill-equipped to cope in the outside world \u2026 The public of this country have invested heavily in this inquiry and like us they expect outcomes.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI want to thank Keith for that quote. I want to start by acknowledging survivors and centring their voices. They are survivors of abuse in State and faith-based care. You\u2019ve waited for decades for justice, for even the most basic assurance that the harm done to you will never be repeated. I want to honour and thank you for your courage. Your stories, which we read in Whanaketea - Through pain and trauma, from darkness to light\u2014survivor experiences for the survivors, by the survivors. Your stories, your advocacy, and your persistence are why we are here today. The Green Party supports the intent of this bill, which will, hopefully, start a raft of legislative changes required to multiple systems and Government agencies to ensure the abuse suffered at the hands of the State is never repeated or felt again. We support efforts to strengthen protections of those who have suffered abuse in care. However, while this bill is a slight\u2014very slight\u2014step forward, it falls short of what is required to truly honour the findings of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care. It fails to centre survivors, it fails to deliver the systemic change that is being called for, and it fails to uphold the Government\u2019s duty of care to those it harmed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EI want to be clear that the Greens support this bill progressing so that it can be improved. Again, though, let me be very clear: we will be seeking significant amendments, particularly around the use of force in care settings, the definition of \u201Cvulnerable adult\u201D, and the need for truly independent survivor-led review of this legislation at the committee of the whole House stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThe Greens have participated, in good faith, at the first reading, through select committee, and second reading stages ,and will continue to fight for this legislation to be better and more survivor-centred than how it is currently drafted. The Greens remain deeply, deeply concerned by the inclusion of the section 384KB, which permits the use of force in certain care settings, even under so-called limited circumstances. Let me say this in the most plain terms: there should be no place for the use of force against children and young people in care; not now, not ever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThe royal commission was unequivocal in its findings: force, restraint, and punitive practices are a continuation of the very abuse we are trying to reckon with. Yet here we are considering a bill that, as currently drafted, potentially leaves the door open to some of those same practices. We know from decades of research, from lived experience of survivors, and from the international best practice that young people in care, particularly those in youth justice settings, often have significant trauma histories, complex needs, and mental distress. Meeting those needs with force only causes more harm. We should be embedding trauma-informed de-escalation practices in legislation, not legitimising physical restraint. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe have raised this in our differing view at the select committee stage but what remains troubling is the way that the currently drafted legislation leaves the door open to a third party\u2014private providers\u2014to use force. That is a serious red flag; a red flag we should all be concerned about. It raises enormous accountability and safety concerns, and it directly contradicts the recommendations 70 to 75 of the royal commission of inquiry, which called for a fundamental shift away from punitive models of care. Whakarongo mai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe will be seeking a raft of Amendment Papers at the committee of the whole House stage to remove this provision entirely from the bill. We also remain concerned that this bill reinforces institutionalised models of youth justice, particularly through the expanded search powers and imaging provisions. Section 384KA may improve oversight in some cases, but at what cost? It risks contributing to a culture of surveillance and control, solidifying institutionalism in these rangatahi and young people rather than supporting healing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ERetaining images generated by imaging technology for up to 24 hours is unnecessary and potentially unsafe. The bill does not justify why this retention period is even necessary. Every day that an image is stored increases the risk of misuse, breach of privacy, and re-traumatisation\u2014something we should all be focused on eliminating. We urge the Government to reconsider this approach and shift focus towards its community-based, wh\u0101nau-centred, and culturally grounded alternatives to youth justice institutions. We want to move away from institutionalising children, and care for them instead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EClause 12 of this bill introduces a problematic definition of \u201Cvulnerable adult\u201D under the Crimes Act. This definition raised significant concerns with many in the disabled community, as we heard at the select committee stage. We heard from submitters that the current wording defines disabled people through a deficit lens rather than recognising them as full, equal participants in society. This language is not just outdated, it is actively harmful and undermines the intent of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. At the select committee stage, we asked the chair to formally request that this clause be paused until proper co-designed consultation with the disability and deaf communities has occurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESomething that survivors said over and over and over in the royal commission of inquiry: \u201Cnothing about us without us\u201D must mean something in law. Perhaps the most frustrating failure of this bill is the lack of meaningful consultation with the very people it affects. Survivors, disabled communities, the deaf community, tangata whaikaha M\u0101ori, takat\u0101pui, and others have been vocal about their concerns. The select committee process is not meaningful\u2014not meaningfully listening to these survivors and listening to their experiences and learning from them\u2014because, over and over, they tell us the reason that they are going back over these awful childhood memories is so that no child ever experiences what they did when they were children. Unfortunately, we know, right now in New Zealand, that children are still being abused in care every day, and that is not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESo, to conclude, the Greens will support this bill at second reading, but we do so with serious concerns and clear expectations around the amendments being sought to uphold the royal commission of inquiry recommendation. This must not be the final shape of the legislation. The use of force must be prohibited; survival leadership must be embedded; definitions must be empowering, not stigmatising; and consultation must be meaningful, not tokenistic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002231a8a8bd44a44c17be8bab6147dc5adb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231a8a8bd44a44c17be8bab6147dc5adb\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a privilege to be able to stand here on behalf of ACT in support of the second reading of the Responding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ELet me start with why this bill was presented in the first place. It was in response to recommendations from the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State Care and in the Care of Faith-based Institutions. It was also done in a time frame around the apology to survivors of abuse in State-based care and faith-based care. That day still sits in my mind now very, very clearly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI kind of have two feet in this camp\u2014one with the experience of growing up knowing what it is like when the system fails you, when the system doesn\u2019t step up and do what they should do to make sure that a young person is safe. I never really had an understanding of how important an apology is. I would just like to take a moment to thank Minister Stanford in the efforts around making sure that that apology was done in a genuine manner, a respectful manner, and in a way that may not be able to take away what happened to survivors in care, but at least it\u2019s an acknowledgment of what had happened to them. So I just wanted to take a moment. I never really had a real understanding of how much that apology would mean to me myself. So I just wanted to speak to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EIn response to that, this is just a small part of a work programme that the Government is currently working on in response to the recommendations of that bill. Nobody has ever said that this is the magic bullet that\u2019s going to fix absolutely everything; it\u2019s just one part of the puzzle, and there is a lot of work to do. I\u2019m really proud of the work that Ministers have done around this space, of actually working together and getting agencies to work together with the ultimate benefit of making sure that young people and anybody in State institutions are safe. My responsibility is not only to the young people that are in Oranga Tamariki care or residences but also to the safety of the staff within those residences. That was taken on board when we were looking at ways that we could make residences safe, not just for the young people but for the staff who are working with these young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard some commentary around the use of force and the concerns around use of force. I\u2019d just like to give an example of what that could look like and an understanding that it will be the last resort. But there are circumstances where young people are getting hurt and harmed within residences, not necessarily by the staff but by other young people. If two young people are in a circumstance where they are physically fighting, one is harming another, are we to say that a staff member cannot physically restrain that young person for the safety of the young person they are attacking? We have to have the ability, under exceptional circumstances, to allow staff to intervene for the safety of a young person. So I will not apologise for putting something in place that will give staff a tool to enable the safety of a young person when they are in danger of hurting or harming themselves or hurting or harming another young person or a staff member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve also heard concerns around third-party provider use of force. I would just like to clarify why that was even considered. I would also like to give another scenario of what that would look like. In the same sentence, the member that expressed concern about third-party use also mentioned that they would like to see the Government going back to community-led approaches and community, holistic approaches to dealing with our young people, rather than a residential care setting. This provision will allow that. Under current legislation, a third-party provider would not be able to take on these young people and would not have the ability to, like I said, keep their staff safe and keep the young people safe when they are in the care of a third-party provider, which could be an iwi provider or any community provider. This will allow us more options at looking at community-based care. I just think these are very small, simple changes around Oranga Tamariki - specific changes within this legislation that just makes sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EIn no circumstance whatsoever should strip-searches be allowed on young people. So it just made sense that there was something sitting in legislation that, obviously, has not been used in a long time but should not sit within legislation. So we will be repealing that and not allowing a young person to even consider that being a possibility. Survivors shared experiences of horrific, violating searches happening to them within care, and we do not have to have a piece of legislation that even reminds us that that could be a possibility. Submitters also talked about never feeling safe when they were in a residential setting and that we needed to make sure that young people are safe and cared for. So a lot of these decisions were made with that in mind, and search powers will enable that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EIn the six months to February 2024, 390 unauthorised items were found in one secure youth justice residence alone, and that was without the ability of having a scanner in place, so we don\u2019t actually know the true number. Of these, 21 were large-sized rocks, 14 were shanks that could be immediately used as a weapon, and there were also unauthorised items such as vapes and illegal drugs. Now, these vapes are also used to create shanks, which is incredibly dangerous for the young people and for the staff. So we have to have the ability to make sure that people that are visiting the residences\u2014and this includes staff and contractors\u2014are not bringing things into residences that would put these young people at risk. I have had feedback from young people and from people working with the young people that this will give them more sense of security and safety within what they call their home; and they should feel safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve put provisions in place so that if an unauthorised item is found, it will be returned to the person who has brought it. They can take it back to their vehicle and choose to do so if they would like. We will be explaining this procedure thoroughly, and staff will be trained on how to implement it. They will be trained how to implement all the changes that are happening in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EAs far as use of force comes, I do agree de-escalation is really important, which is why I was very concerned around there being no standard operating practices within youth justice. Professionalising the workforce has a massive budget boost for Oranga Tamariki for that very reason. We will be professionalising the workforce, making sure staff are trained, understand processes and de-escalation, and understand how to work in a trauma-informed way with young people that often have had a pretty poor start in life. So I commend this bill to the House, and I really look forward to the day that this gets Royal assent and that we can just get on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u00226886a67fe9cf4a6394a745b5b3e4f5d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226886a67fe9cf4a6394a745b5b3e4f5d7\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Any time I speak on a topic relating to abuse in care, I draw from personal experience of what my mother suffered. For me, tonight, to speak to this bill, I take heart that, as a Government and as a Parliament, we are taking action in a positive direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EThe final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care\u2014I had the privilege to make a contribution to that, and I\u2019d just like to draw a couple of notes from what I spoke about in that first reading. The inquiry reveals shocking details, stories that are incredibly harrowing, that have impacted large numbers of people, their families, and communities. Abuse in State care\u2014that abuse became normalised and integrated in the culture of so-called care. It\u2019s a gross inversion of the purpose of healing and restoration and is a shameful stain on our nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EI am pleased to be able to speak in support of the second reading of the Responding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill on behalf of New Zealand First, because this responds to decades of systemic abuse against children, young people, and vulnerable adults between 1950 and 1999. Its purpose is to begin implementing some of the commission\u2019s recommendations while broader reforms are developed. It has been mentioned in the House tonight that this bill does not go far enough, but it is the beginning of a larger piece of work. This bill comes after the deeply traumatic findings of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care. It does acknowledge the harm inflicted upon generations of New Zealanders in institutions that were designed to care for them, that were designed to protect them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EAs I mentioned, this bill is a significant start. Further change is still needed, however. New Zealand First supports this bill. I commended it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220143456fc3444eac8f8fc08da5a09aec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220143456fc3444eac8f8fc08da5a09aec\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u0022efb65806ca674048afa8c10325f2ebef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efb65806ca674048afa8c10325f2ebef\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak to this bill, and I just want to first begin by acknowledging my colleague in front of me, Kahurangi Carter, for her compelling, moving speech and commitment to tamariki in care and in custody, as this bill addresses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThis bill, as others have outlined\u2014my other colleague Willow-Jean Prime had a really important and strong introduction about what this is all about\u2014this is all about the at least quarter of a million tamariki who were abused and tortured in State care and religious institutions from the years 1950 to 1999. I think, although we\u2019re supporting this bill because of all of the reasons that Kahu outlined, there are obviously still gaps in this bill. We need to talk about those, because until we talk about those, nothing will ever change, and we have to acknowledge that there are still remnants of that system in the system that we have in place today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThis bill makes a number of different tweaks. Some of those are bigger than others, but it is tweaks to a system that aided and abetted that abuse over decades. Abuse in care did not stop in 1999; it continued beyond that, and we know that because we are in community with people younger than myself who experienced abuse in State care. I want to use an example: a case study from the Whanaketia report about Te Whakapakari boot camp programme that was run on Aotea, Great Barrier Island. We all know what happened in those boot camps, because it is outlined in this report. But three of the reasons why this abuse happened were: (1) a lack of institutional safeguards, (2) the fact that these were run in isolated locations, and (3) the presence and power holding of untrained members of staff. I am afraid that these three elements are still present in our youth justice system, in State care, and that they are not being addressed by this bill, because we see that in the boot camps that are happening today, and that will be legislated under a different bill around responding to serious youth offending\u2014but this bill, too, entrenches some of those stalwart features of an abusive system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThis bill talks about youth justice residences, and I want to continue building on those points around institutionalisation. I\u2019m really scared that some of the things that are in this bill will mean that wh\u0101nau do not go to visit their tamariki, because of fear of being searched, having to be scanned, all of these different elements. I understand\u2014it\u2019s a fine balance to strike, that you have to make sure that people aren\u2019t bringing in contraband, that they\u2019re not bringing in anything that can harm Tamariki; but, at the same time, sometimes, that uneasiness around institutional authority can be enough, if you have that trauma, to not go. It can already be a challenge going in the first place if that youth justice residence is far away from where those tamariki come from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why the Greens have been persistent in saying that we do not believe in youth justice residences as they exist today. We believe that these need to be far smaller, in situ homes in communities so that tamariki are not ripped from their communities, where their families have to travel across the country to see them and then are subjected to some of these checks and balances. We obviously support provisions around removing strip-searches. No tamariki should ever be subjected to a strip-search\u2014that would make anybody in this room feel deeply uncomfortable and horrified by that. But, again, I want to build on this idea around the use of force\u2014and just really hammering home the point that use of force\u2014if you use that against tamariki, in some ways, you are teaching them that it is OK to use that as a tool in their future. That use of force also can lead to further trauma and further use of violence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003ESo there are lots of different parts of this bill that I think my colleague articulated far better than I have, but just to say that we are committed to the journey and the teamwork that it will take to turn our youth justice system around. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00223ebca638ac344a1a8f76a16d95093949\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ebca638ac344a1a8f76a16d95093949\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to make a contribution on the Responding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill on the second reading. As the chair of the Social Services and Community Committee, I\u2019ll just make a few comments and I\u2019ll have an opportunity to say more in the third reading, so I\u2019ll just limit the comments I make here to some themes that came through on this bill at hearings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI just want to acknowledge the 69 submissions that the select committee received, the 20 submitters who presented orally\u2014including many survivors of abuse in State care. Thank you for letting us know, in very visceral terms, the issues they\u2019ve faced and continue to face and the importance of this to them, something that we also consider to be very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESome of the things that our committee heard is that some didn\u2019t think this went far enough and wanted all of the recommendations the royal commission implemented. I note that this is the first step, and is an initial legislative response to the findings of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State Care and in the Care of Faith-based Institutions. There are many more steps to come, and a lot of work has been done by the Government to respond to that, but this is the first thing and some critical initial things that the Government could move quickly on and is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI just would note a couple of points. One was the recommendation that came from the royal commission to specifically include disability within the definition of a \u201Cvulnerable adult\u201D. Some submitters were concerned about that terminology, and our committee very carefully considered that. An issue that was brought very clearly to our attention was that an unintended consequence of changing that definition would mean that it would actually have issues in the Crimes Act and it would probably result in fewer prosecutions. I acknowledge those submitters who raised concerns about this, but that is the reason why we have not recommended any change in respect of that\u2014as we do not want less prosecutions of people who should be prosecuted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Children\u2019s Act, this is extending workforce restrictions to include equivalent overseas convictions. We obviously want to ensure that people who have overseas convictions should not have the opportunity to be around young people and have an opportunity\u2014that they should not have\u2014to abuse them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Oranga Tamariki Act, I note the concerns that were raised by some around the search powers. It is important to note this is removing the power to conduct strip-searches. What it does do, instead, is allow scanner and pat-down searches upon entries of others to these facilities, to ensure that nothing is brought in\u2014weapons or other contraband\u2014and it permits the use of force only where reasonably necessary. We really interrogated that point and we got a lot of information to our committee about how they\u2019ll be very, very carefully used and there will be very careful provisions put around that and reports that would have to follow if there was an occasion where it was deemed it was reasonably necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a number of other points that we probably can go into further, but I just want to say that we considered this very carefully. This is the first step of many steps to come. Thank you again to those who came and shared their experiences with our committee. We will talk again in the next hearing on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0d388b41592473083a1a0ddd0fe2fd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0d388b41592473083a1a0ddd0fe2fd1\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. Just wrapping up this kaupapa, I thought that my colleague and friend Willow Jean Prime summed up the position very well in terms of our doubts with regards to the bill. It\u2019s a sad state of affairs where you know that there\u2019s still a lot to do. In fact, there\u2019s so much to do, but you really have no choice in terms of supporting a kaupapa because something\u2019s better than nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESystemic abuse is shocking and, at times, hard to see or to believe for a lot of people, but it\u2019s true and real and will always be, and that\u2019s just a fact. And we\u2019re talking here about the systemic abuse of a quarter of a million people, and many have acknowledged that\u2014but a quarter of a million; it\u2019s almost beyond belief. I think that many of us in the House here are still stunned when we think about the pure evil that was rolled out by people and organisations that many of us thought we could trust. We never thought for a moment\u2014and I won\u2019t mention any of the organisations tonight at all; that would not be right, but I think it was a stunning time back in November when we traversed this, when we addressed this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI, like others here, was very pleased with the different k\u014Drero that came around the House; particularly pleased with, obviously, our leader\u2019s address, but also the Prime Minister gave a very, very good address\u2014which was good, but many people were also saying, \u201CWell, what does that actually now mean?\u201D In terms of a real and practical sense, what can be done now\u2014because the k\u014Drero was good but what people want to see is real effect from their k\u014Drero. They want to know what\u2019s next, because the tough part of this is you\u2019ve got a system that\u2019s not working. Do you turn that whole system over or do you just put tweaks in there and roll it along?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWe tried hard as a Government to change things. We addressed things in terms of Oranga Tamariki, we changed the whole board, we put a new chair in, we put a whole M\u0101ori board in, and we tried. Why did we go down that track? Because we were told that a by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori approach was the right way to go, and we started to get results. However, obviously, we got turned over as Government, and what we had put in place was not continued by the current Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI just wanted to make this short contribution before you cut me off, Madam Speaker, to say that the big question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f465b857b1a4677847b2d20f476620c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I wasn\u2019t going to cut you off, Mr Jackson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207c7b23fd30e4868b0fe99599b6a3007\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: The big question in terms of what survivors are saying is the system hasn\u2019t worked for us. The system hasn\u2019t worked for us, so we need more than a few tweaks. We need the whole system turned over, and that\u2019s something that I think we want to address in the third reading, because it will take bravery, it will take courage, but at least we\u2019ve made a start and the framework is in place. I look forward to addressing some of that in the third reading. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022daafe588f57d4dd89c2448cac8ebf588\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022daafe588f57d4dd89c2448cac8ebf588\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House is suspended until 9 a.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250723c28d682eae584a9a93e2ff68376b8a93000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.55 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002265d77d4c103f404aa670d52aededf6df\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 23 JULY 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002271fb566ec86c449183a723fcf42f4c69\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 24 July 2025)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab79a2c06b1f49e8974cb0f4a67cea39\u0022\u003EResponding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd9ffd8cb5c445508a08d346f37f8cff\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022573b3181430b44dfbdc8b7a7bbbc566f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022573b3181430b44dfbdc8b7a7bbbc566f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. When the House suspended last night, we were up to the second reading of the Responding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill. We are up to call No. 9, a National Party call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u00227bbac1aeb4b547cfbec00e686eff9477\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bbac1aeb4b547cfbec00e686eff9477\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to rise and speak to the Responding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill. For someone who does not have lived experience, one can only imagine the great difficulty and the horror of having to relive and give testimony to the abuse and neglect suffered\u2014for some, quite a while ago; for others, not so long ago\u2014and so I want to begin by commending and praising the bravery of the nearly 2,400 victims of abuse who have come forward to give testimony to the royal commission. In addition to that, once again, they have had to relive and redocument their sufferings through their submissions to the Social Services and Community Committee. It is, for myself, totally unimaginable, because I do see a lot of suffering and anxiety in other things, but not in this, for myself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EThe bill demonstrates the Government\u2019s commitment to change\u2014true, legislative change\u2014that will mean that, hopefully, there will be no further similar situations going on into the future. The bill aims to better protect people, especially children, in the care of the State. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge all the members who have contributed yesterday and last night and who will contribute today, and I commend their determination to bring the voices of the many into this House. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8623f532acd42ac8d8a8d8ce643a7c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8623f532acd42ac8d8a8d8ce643a7c9\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. With this legislation, we need to remind ourselves of the survivors and put them front and centre. They are those who have gone before and, sadly, are no longer with us, and those who are still with us and who have participated in this process, but they are also those who didn\u2019t because it was too raw or too hard, or life just meant they couldn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThree weeks ago, I buried a friend of mine. Her name was Susan, and Susan was a survivor of State care. As I look at this legislation and as I listen to the debate again today that we\u2019ve had from last year, from the select committee to now, I can\u2019t help but reflect on the life that Susan had and on what must happen so that what happened to Susan doesn\u2019t happen to anybody else. We\u2019ve heard people say that we don\u2019t want this to happen again, we want to make sure that this is something in the past, and we\u2019re washing our hands of it and moving forward, but as we deal with this legislation, we need to be aware and we need to be vigilant of the fact that abuse still exists and still happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EIf you think this is in the past and that we\u2019re talking about something that\u2019s happened 20, 30, 40, or 50 years ago, yes, it did, and we\u2019ve got better. But we haven\u2019t got there yet in terms of ensuring that there is no more abuse by the State or by the Church of those who, through no fault of their own, end up in the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI look at this legislation and I look at what was done in the past, and, for me, as I read it and I look at it, it was very much about making it easy for us, making the system easy for the State\u2014making the system easy so that we could just pop people away somewhere, wash our hands, and know that we\u2019ve done our bit. They\u2019re fed, they\u2019re watered, they\u2019re clothed, and they\u2019re housed, but it goes far deeper than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWhen we look at this piece of legislation, yes, we\u2019re going to support it\u2014we must support it. But it does not go far enough to ensure that the State, which is the caregiver or the parent of a child, or of someone who is in an institution for mental health reasons or for other reasons\u2014that they are cared for in a way that means abuse doesn\u2019t happen again, and, unfortunately, we aren\u2019t there yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWe look at the recommendations of the royal commission, we look at them and we see those 200 recommendations that sit there, and they\u2019re challenging for us as politicians, they\u2019re challenging for us as lawmakers, and they\u2019re challenging for us as people who hold the purse strings, because it will cost us\u2014it will cost this House\u2014to do the right thing. We need to do the right thing and find a way through, where we don\u2019t just sign up to 19 of those recommendations but we actually look and we search deep within our hearts and our souls and find a way to do what is right for those who are survivors of State- and faith-based care, and, for those who are currently in the system, we need to ensure that this does not happen, because that reflects on us, on our nation, and on the kind of people that we are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI reflect on the life of Susan. She went to Victoria University and graduated when she was 22. She graduated when she was 22, and she was doing OK. Life wasn\u2019t easy. She had a history within her wh\u0101nau of schizophrenia, and, sadly, as she matured and her brain developed, schizophrenia became her lifetime companion\u2014which no one wants\u2014and what did we do? We popped her into Porirua Hospital for 25 years. We put her into a hospital, we left her there, and we let her be. That met her daily needs, but if you look at Maslow\u2019s hierarchy of needs, we didn\u2019t get beyond the shelter, the food, and the water\u2014that\u2019s as far as we went. That is abuse and it must not happen again, and, sadly, when I did her funeral a few weeks ago, I discovered, as we got the death certificate, that her mother had died in Porirua Hospital. She was another survivor\u2014or she didn\u2019t survive\u2014of the State. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWe must do better. We must get this legislation right to ensure that it doesn\u2019t happen again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u002212e3aab6f2d34c45819f0c32a97abcd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212e3aab6f2d34c45819f0c32a97abcd9\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E We are here this morning discussing the second reading of the Responding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill. This bill follows an apology from the Crown, which follows the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State Care and in the Care of Faith-based Institutions. This bill enacts the changes that arise from the royal commission of inquiry. It is a start and it is a good first step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge all the previous speakers from across this Parliament who have shed light and continue to shed light on the stories throughout New Zealand of the tens and hundreds of thousands of those who have been impacted and who continue to be impacted by abuse in State care. I\u2019d like to acknowledge Minister Erica Stanford for taking on this work amidst her other important ministerial portfolios. I\u2019d like to keep this contribution short. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00221dea6c529b684f49b181397ebe356e24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dea6c529b684f49b181397ebe356e24\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is a bill which Labour is supporting, as it should support any step forward that tries to protect children from further abuse when we know that the consequences have been so heavy and there has been such a good-faith, thorough look at what has gone wrong. But it\u2019s been made very clear by the Labour Party that we\u2019re really concerned at the timidity of this piece of legislation and that it\u2019s just simply not going far enough. I think there are 19 recommendations out of the 200 that have been adopted by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I appreciate that this is a piece of legislation that is looking to stop some of the really crass things that have happened that have really caused harm, and one is strip-searches, for example. There is an attempt to be more nuanced in that approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI was appalled to find that the first part of the bill was looking at extending to the existing workforce restrictions on core children\u2019s workers with convictions from overseas offences that were equivalent to some of the most heinous offences against children. Isn\u2019t it incredible that we were living in a situation where it was possible for somebody with those convictions to be working with children in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIt does show a degree of neglect, and it is pretty incredible that we were in that situation at all, and so it is very important legislation. I don\u2019t mean to disregard it, but I also think it\u2019s really important that the Government listen to the amendments that are going to be made by my friend the Hon Willow-Jean Prime, whose primary portfolio for the Labour Party is the welfare of children, and they will be made in absolute good faith. She won\u2019t be putting up things for the sake of opposition; she\u2019ll be putting up things that should deserve a cross-party, good-faith look, because that\u2019s what really is important about the work that we do in this House\u2014it\u2019s what\u2019s going to stick. It\u2019s what\u2019s going to work for children in this country to stop abuse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIt couldn\u2019t be a more critical issue on which to look at all the contributions in this House and get this as right as possible. It doesn\u2019t mean we will get it entirely right. Some of these are really hard problems, and it\u2019s hard to solve them, and what do you do? I think we had the comment from the Green Party earlier where there was talk about the strip-searching when people are coming into the places where children are being cared for. What do you do when people come in, in terms of searching them, etc., in order to preserve dignity and in order to make sure that people visit when their children are alienated from them in that way? How do you balance those things? Those are tough questions, but that\u2019s why we absolutely need to solve them, and the public need us and want us to solve them by doing cross-party work in areas like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I also would like to take the point that my friend Glen Bennett has made. This is an area where the cost is huge and the cost of redress is huge, and we cannot afford to just simply kick the can down the road on the worst possible things that have happened in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had children tortured and we have had devastating consequences. We talk about gangs, we talk about methamphetamine use, and we talk about imprisonment, and, mostly, it\u2019s the very same kids who end up in that system, and we have not addressed the critical recommendations in this report. Yes, there are 200 recommendations, but there are also some where the survivors of this were actually most forceful in what they thought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EOne of them is about the independence of the group that was going to look at redress, etc. There was a request for independence, and we haven\u2019t met that yet; in fact, it\u2019s been decided not to do that because it\u2019s too expensive. I mean, I don\u2019t think that we could think of something that is more important for the people who are impacted by this kind of terrible abuse by the State and faith-based organisations than their trust in the system that we create. They have to believe in it\u2014it is so important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe have a problem out in our community with disengagement from the State and from this process in this House. People are feeling utterly, utterly alienated from this House, and so I think it\u2019s really important that we spend not only the money but the political capital putting in place systems which are a bridge to people who have been completely alienated, because they have absolutely every reason to distrust both the State and the religious organisations, which\u2014let\u2019s face it\u2014are supposed to be the organisations that talk to the soul. They are supposed to look after the spiritual wellbeing of people, and they have breached that trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe have examples across the world of this kind of problem occurring. We are not alone. We have countries like Australia and Canada, where our indigenous populations in these countries have been particularly severely impacted, and it is worrying that in many of those countries we have the same problem of disconnection. Actually, despite these inquiries, which I believe are absolutely in good faith, we hear the stories of people, and despite the fact that we have volumes of terrible stories, we still have not reacted across the globe in a way that means that people are accountable for their crimes. That is a problem for me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI look at Canada and I look at what has happened there and how few of the priests involved in the abuse have ever been prosecuted. I was listening to something recently on this and it was a description of what had happened. There was the closing of the files, the private settlements of these matters were happening, and, in fact, none of those priests had been prosecuted in the criminal system, whatsoever\u2014none. That\u2019s an institutional problem\u2014that\u2019s a will problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe not only need to listen to these stories and to record these stories, but when people tell us these stories\u2014when they tell a royal commission these stories, which are devastating\u2014they entrust us to actually follow through. So while I see this law as a tiny step in the right direction, I don\u2019t get up here to make political hay when I say that this is not good enough. We cannot \u201CPollyanna\u201D it, and the most important thing that we need to do is recognise that this abuse isn\u2019t just in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EPaying the price for the past is the first step in actually moving forward genuinely in a direction to stopping this happening any more, and it is happening now. We know that this continues to happen. We know that it has not stopped, and until we are prepared through our will in this House to work collaboratively to make sure that the right kinds of responses are in place, that there is consensus on them, and that we are paying, yes, sometimes a financial price but also paying respectful prices like actually getting rid of the control of things into an independent body\u2014until we do that, we have got no right to expect the people who were involved in this and who were hurt by this to trust us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe have a responsibility to follow through on the recommendations as far as that is possible and to look at this widely. Yes, it\u2019s going to be painful for us, but it\u2019s not going to be half as painful as it has been for those in our population who have been hurt. Thank you. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u00226fddf96332d044ccb525e3f4deb0c375\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fddf96332d044ccb525e3f4deb0c375\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s an honour to be the final speaker in this debate on the Responding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill at its second reading. The report from the royal commission was a devastating and weighty tome of horror that we worked our way through. It\u2019s a piece of work that should resonate with and haunt this House for the rest of our days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003EAs has been acknowledged, the apology was part of the response, and what we\u2019re doing in this House is we\u2019re making the first step now. It\u2019s a small step. We acknowledge that these are the things that we can do that are pragmatic. This stops some of the most egregious abuses of rights\u2014for example, the strip-searches\u2014and puts in place a way that protects people who are in care but also allows us to make sure that dignity is upheld. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003EAnother thing that not many people have talked about in this debate is the record-keeping. There is a change to the Public Records Act which means that there can actually be a notification and there can be more onus put on record-keeping, because many of the survivors\u2014and I want to acknowledge all of those who did contribute to the discussions and to the royal commission of inquiry, because I know that for every one who did, there were thousands of others who didn\u2019t, and a few of those, at least, I have met in my time as a GP. I know the impact that that had on their lives. It was devastating throughout and it changed the trajectory of their lives, and not being able to access timely and accurate records was a frustration. In a way, it appeared that their experience had been denied, which was another way in which they were not believed. By strengthening and clarifying our Public Records Act, we will ensure that in the future, records are more available and that process will be more timely and accessible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003EAll that we can do is continue to improve and to protect the vulnerable. This is a first step in us doing that, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u002248148150e77e40ffa5111f21d598f587\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248148150e77e40ffa5111f21d598f587\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E M\u014Drena, Madam Chair, and thank you. It is a duty to take the final call on this take [subject] for the bill\u2019s second reading, and m\u014Drena ki a t\u0101tou. What I recognised in the speeches from last night and, in fact, over the while was that the further we get away from an apology, the easier it becomes for us to\u2014whether we recognise it or not\u2014forget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWhen the apology took place in this House, there were many in the gallery, and I certainly remember making a statement that the fact that we\u2019re apologising does not mean that the survivors have to forgive. That is still very, very true today, after I read a statement being released by He Kura M\u014Drehu, a group of survivors who are deeply, deeply\u2014and this came out just this morning. They are reporting that they are deeply disappointed by the way in which this has been dealt with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EDespite the sentiments that I\u2019ve heard this morning and last night, it does not make any sense at all when we use words like \u201Chorror\u201D, \u201Csmall steps\u201D, and \u201Cegregious\u201D, and then suggest that this is enough. It makes no common sense, let alone intellectual rigor, to talk like that as if that is enough. It is absolutely not enough. I don\u2019t agree. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori disagrees completely, though we\u2019d want to get this right\u2014as a party, we\u2019d want to get this right. Out of any of the pieces of legislation that we debate in this House, this has to recognise in reality and make the changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EAgain, back to the survivors\u2019 report this morning, or their discussion: survivors expect change, and this doesn\u2019t cut it. Recognising that there was the apology, and then there\u2019s the process of admin and payments and so on, they\u2019re looking and expecting something much more fundamental and much more recognising that when we discuss it, it is a debate. It is not just the changes in their lives that this harm caused but the trauma it caused and the trauma that exists with each one of them today. The more we put aside the report and we pop it on the right of our desk, which I do not\u2014when we keep doing that, we make distance, and then we refer back to the things that we\u2019d much prefer to talk about, like fast track, growth, and so on, which I don\u2019t think are things that we should completely ignore, either. But this matter? This is where we could do better, because this House has failed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThis House has failed all of these survivors, and I know this. This is the work that I\u2019ve been involved in. I know this very well and I heard it being discussed last night as well, and members were even relating it to some of the other discussions and debates in the House regarding domestic violence and family violence. All of that trauma\u2014unless this House recognises what it means for individuals and their families and recognises the generational harm, we continue to fail every single survivor who gave their story to the House and asked the House to do better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWe cannot support it. It\u2019s worse than tinkering\u2014I don\u2019t know what another word is right now, but I\u2019ll probably think of one by the time we get to the third reading. I would implore members sitting to my left that maybe today, you need to go back to that report, pick out some of the literature and read it, and we can remind ourselves of the trauma in which our families\u2014each of those families\u2014exist today. Today\u2014they still carry that trauma today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori cannot and will not support this at this point, if at any\u2014when we get to third reading. He Kura M\u014Drehu, as well\u2014I talked with Tu Chapman; I will be talking with her again today\u2014are deeply, deeply concerned and feel completely ignored, and so we need to do better. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00220114c743656c450c8d64df1b2d09d46f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220114c743656c450c8d64df1b2d09d46f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the amendments recommended by the Social Services and Community Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c137f54e276141239f20585c78d24426\u0022\u003EBroadcasting (Repeal of Advertising Restrictions) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002222f6d8a66baa4675b70aa71dbb795d13\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1613c878dba4907bc61249941aadb71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1613c878dba4907bc61249941aadb71\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Media and Communications: I present a legislative statement on the Broadcasting (Repeal of Advertising Restrictions) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfa51b4478c24646b1cbe72182b2e219\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b5953e05fec4d6ab0c194696591c3f6\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Broadcasting (Repeal of Advertising Restrictions) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe Broadcasting (Repeal of Advertising Restrictions) Amendment Bill will remove advertising restrictions from section 81 of the Broadcasting Act 1989. Section 81 currently prohibits broadcast television advertising on Sunday and Anzac Day mornings between 6\u00A0a.m. and noon, and both television and radio broadcast advertising on Christmas Day, Good Friday, and Easter Sunday. Section 81 is no longer aligned with the way in which audiences consume content and, in a challenging economic environment for New Zealand media companies, it is actively hindering broadcasters\u2019 ability to earn revenue from advertising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESince section 81 was first introduced in 1989, technology has changed significantly. These days, fewer people engage with content through those traditional formats. Instead, New Zealanders use more on-demand and streaming services like YouTube, and they are not subject to section\u00A081 restrictions. In fact, New Zealand On Air data shows that in 2024, YouTube was the most popular platform in the country, reaching 44 percent of the population of New Zealand daily. By repealing section\u00A081, the bill removes this disparity between different media platforms. In doing so, it would help modernise the Broadcasting Act and allow New Zealand media companies to realise additional advertising revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee has finished its consideration on the bill and recommended to the House that it be passed without amendment. I\u2019d like to take this opportunity to thank members of the committee for their work and diligence on this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EDuring its select committee scrutiny, the bill received submissions from those who would financially benefit or otherwise be impacted by the repeal\u2014including as a listener or viewer or radio and TV content provider\u2014and those with an active interest in the media. The majority of submissions from our media broadcasters were supportive of the bill, saying that it will level the playing field for media advertising and provide a much-needed revenue injection into the sector. I\u2019d like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who made a submission to the committee to help the committee come to its full consideration of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWe know that the media sector is going through a tough time and operating conditions are challenging at present. This, however, is not a challenge that is unique to New Zealand media companies. All around the world, they are facing the effects of reduced advertising revenue and are struggling to remain financially viable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThis Government is doing what it can to create a sustainable environment where the media can create an environment where they can continue to succeed. Part of that is having a strong, growing economy where media companies can effectively monetise their content and give advertising companies the confidence to invest. This bill is but one of the steps we are taking to modernise media regulation and to support the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ERecently, public consultation concluded on a suite of proposals for more extensive reform, and there will be further announcements about this soon. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00223c6b3d6967154fa4bbea1b43d4a8f351\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c6b3d6967154fa4bbea1b43d4a8f351\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u00227e2d1d1b041941a3b9a7b67c651f050b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e2d1d1b041941a3b9a7b67c651f050b\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker Where to start? Is this really what we call \u201Cimmediate action\u201D? To revisit what this bill does, this bill will repeal section 81 of the Broadcasting Act, which restricts broadcast television advertising on Sunday and Anzac Day mornings between 6 a.m. and noon, and both television and radio broadcast advertising on Christmas Day, Good Friday, and Easter Sunday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThis is about levelling the playing field, right? But, really, 73 words make up this bill\u201473 words. That\u2019s all the Minister has been able to give New Zealand\u2019s media sector. Yes, the bill is about fairness in the digital age. We know that advertising on digital platforms is not restricted to certain days. Online platforms can enjoy unrestricted advertising throughout the year, 24/7, so this does level the playing field for our linear media broadcasters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe Government estimates, of this bringing an additional $6 million per year to the media sector, are completely unrealistic. We know that it will not do that. But most importantly, this is not immediate action. This is something that was already part of a suite of changes that Labour, in Government, were going to bring through. It\u2019s the only bill the Minister has gone with in the year since he became the Minister and claimed that he would take immediate action for our media sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s have a look at what has happened since: on 2 July 2024, Paul Goldsmith\u2014our broadcasting and media Minister\u2014released a media statement claiming that the Government was taking immediate action to support the media sector\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f25567c3e1424e3f913883115d225988\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ea008cd81ce4aad90035e1c20c64120\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. The call is \u201Cback to the bill\u201D, and the bill is only 73 words: the only immediate action the Minister has taken. But while the Minister is doing next to nothing, writing 73 words, here\u2019s what else has happened: on 5 July 2024, Newshub closed down and 200 jobs were lost; that\u2019s 200 people that don\u2019t have a job any more. On 7 November 2024, TVNZ announced plans to axe 50 jobs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022038110cd1fe1450dbeaa9abdc48ac52f\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d79667aed414d518487acd52d3ed84e\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: You can heckle all you like, but we\u2019re talking about hundreds of jobs gone in the media sector, and a Minister who, in response, can only generate a 73 word repeal to an outdated Broadcasting Act that will yield very little for our media sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EOn 13 November\u2014and this is where it gets really interesting\u2014RNZ reports that the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill, the very piece of legislation that is set to balance the playing field, balance the ability for our local media sector to derive income from the content that they generate, is all of a sudden in limbo. Goldsmith, at that point, our Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a773408deb80452ab2ff8b79a399c2c0\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: Who? What his name? Full name. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bacdc5b86c1d4c048f0c08014ceb8780\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Minister Goldsmith says that he hasn\u2019t given up on having the bill in place by the end of the year, that year being 2024. I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve noticed, but it\u2019s not 2024 any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EOn 14 November, New Zealand Media and Entertainment (NZME) announced plans to close 14 regional community newspapers before Christmas\u2014another 30 jobs lost in our media sector. I don\u2019t know if you\u2019re keeping count, but it\u2019s going up. In December, this bill\u2014all 73 words\u2014was introduced by the Minister. On 12 December, following lobbying from Google and Meta, the Minister announced that he was going to \u201Cbasically postpone our arrangements a little bit\u201D\u2014\u201Cbasically postpone our arrangements a little bit\u201D\u2014and at that point in time, NZME\u2019s chief executive Michael Boggs says, \u201CAnother delay to progress on the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill is disappointing.\u201D About a month later, NZME, the very organisation he heads, proposes a further reduction of 40 roles in the local media sector\u201440 more people who don\u2019t have jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EAll of a sudden, on 21 May 2025, this Government scraps their work on the digital services tax, an effective handout of $479 million per year over the next four years to the very tech companies that are profiting from New Zealand media content. On 22 May of this year, Minister Goldsmith announced $18 million in cuts for RNZ over the next three years. So the local media sector not only is only getting a 73-word bill that does very little but it\u2019s also having millions of dollars cut from its budget by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, if this is really what you call \u201Cimmediate action\u201D\u2014I just find it hard to believe. It\u2019s like the building is on fire and all the Minister can offer is a drip\u2014a drip, nothing more than a drip\u2014to address the fire in the media sector. Hundreds of people losing their jobs across the last year, the promise of immediate action, and nothing delivered. So on the anniversary of that bold media release promising immediate action, I sent our Minister for Media and Communications a cake\u2014a cake celebrating immediate action. The Minister received that cake; he takes the cake, is the word on the street in the media sector, because throughout this whole time, there has been a Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill, a piece of legislation sitting there that the Minister could have picked up and run with, but he\u2019s flip-flopped, he\u2019s weaselled around it, and he hasn\u2019t picked up that bill, instead painstakingly typing out the 73-word repeal that we are talking about today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister thanked me for the cake. The media sector has nothing to thank the Minister for, because this is it\u2014this is the bill: 73 words. At the same time as the very platforms that profit from the local media content, that the Minister is taking millions of dollars away from in funding, receive $500 million of tax relief from this same Government. The question really here has to be: what is standing in the way of the Minister doing more? Who is the Minister afraid of? Which of the coalition partners is blocking the path of more progress for our media sector at a time when it really needs it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EIs it the ACT Party standing in the way\u2014the ACT Party who celebrated the cutting of funding to RNZ? Is it New Zealand First, whose leader, on RNZ, when he didn\u2019t like interview questions on Morning Report, suggested that he would cut their funding? Or is it the big tech companies that the Minister has met with, who all of a sudden are not faced with $500 million in taxes that they ought to be paying for the content that they use, and for the audience that they take by using content that they\u2019re not paying for? Who is the Minister afraid of? What is stopping him from delivering more than 73 words to simply repeal a part of the Broadcasting Act? If you promise immediate action, you need to deliver it. The only immediate action we have seen is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of New Zealanders losing their jobs in the media sector, and a Government and a Minister who are not prepared to do anything about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESo whilst we support this bill, we do not support the complete inaction from the Minister. We ask the Minister to support the media sector, because that is something, so far, he has proven he is unable to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022948007914a65462f92ade9a5cfa5a97c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022948007914a65462f92ade9a5cfa5a97c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I take the next call, can I remind members to focus on what is in the bill, not what is not in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2fc8f5ae09a46c09fdab50be233ef55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2fc8f5ae09a46c09fdab50be233ef55\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. It is said that through this new legislation, a $6 million lifeline will be thrown to local broadcasters to repeal all advertising restrictions on Sundays and public holidays. So let\u2019s think about that. That\u2019s all Sundays, public holidays, including Anzac Day, Christmas Day, Good Friday, and Easter Sunday. Gone will be the little bit of peace and quiet that we have from the hectic modern world, which is what Gareth Hughes shared in 2015 when National last tried this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWhen I think about Sundays, I enjoy my coffee with a bit of Praise Be and Q\u002BA, and I think about our mokopuna who enjoy What Now or Home and Away without the noise of the Warehouse, or Briscoes, or Maccas being advertised to them. Many in the House might forget that What Now still exists, but our mokopuna still watch it, despite everyone saying that viewing trends have changed. There are still those of our mokopuna, with their Nutri-Grain, sitting at the coffee table watching morning TV on Sunday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThe Green Party has significant concerns around the exposure of tamariki mokopuna to ongoing commercial advertising. Why do we have to do that? Why, on a Christmas Day, when we\u2019re enjoying time with our wh\u0101nau, do we have to see adverts for Instant Finance, Briscoes, The Warehouse, or My Little Pony? Because that\u2019s the thing\u2014you\u2019re offering, in this legislation, a mere $6 million as a lifeline. The Government is offering a mere $6 million as a supposed lifeline to the broadcasting industry, when the Government has cut nearly $10 million from Whakaata M\u0101ori, cut nearly $18\u00A0million\u2014that\u2019s the forecast\u2014from Radio New Zealand, and when TVNZ is looking for some $30 million in additional revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThe $6 million projected to be new revenue for commercial advertising on these sanctified days, our R\u0101tapu and our public holidays like Anzac Day, will only generate a mere $6 million. Let\u2019s not joke around and think that this is the lifeline that\u2019s needed\u2014no, no, no. This Government has absolutely turned its back on public broadcasting, because they\u2019ve favoured $2.9 billion of tax cuts to landlords instead of our public broadcasters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s not counterfeit and argue that somehow $6 million of commercial revenue through a bit of broadcasting on Anzac Day is going to do anything to deal with the larger issues in terms of public broadcasting and what the Government is not doing to support a sustainable local public supply of broadcasting and the fourth estate\u2019s independence. Oh, yes, let\u2019s talk about a clear direction on that. Let\u2019s talk about protecting the fourth estate. Let\u2019s look at coordination and sustainable funding for public broadcasting. But, no, no, it\u2019s only $6 million that we will see that will take away the quiet opportunity for us to watch Tagata Pasifika or Marae or Home and Away on a Sunday, because now we\u2019re going to be filled with Briscoes, Instant Finance, Maccas, Burger King, and Pizza Hut, because the advertising is going to come thick and fast. Let\u2019s look at what we will be exposing our tamariki mokopuna to as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThe fundamentals of what\u2019s happening here is that it\u2019s a mere tinkering around the edges, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re seeing\u2014the fact that the Government is merely opening up a window for funding a small section of additional revenue on a Sunday and public holidays, yet we know that the industry is being cut and jobs are being lost. Tonnes of jobs are being lost. The Green Party does not support this legislation. We have grave concerns around the commercialisation of advertising targeting our tamariki mokopuna, and we are arguing that, actually, it\u2019s about sustainable, long-term funding for public broadcasting, which includes Whakaata M\u0101ori and iwi M\u0101ori radio, and the Government has failed to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThis legislation does not address the wider issues that we are facing. Yes, you might argue that viewer trends have changed and the way that people are consuming their TV is different, but at the end of the day, many of us do watch Sunday TV and enjoy a bit of Jack Tame Q\u002BA or Marae or Waka Huia, and those with mokopuna might watch What Now or Home and Away or Britain\u2019s Got Talent, or whatever is going on on a Sunday morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ETo consider what the public broadcasting opportunity here is, it\u2019s for us as a House to really consider what we do to support sustainable public broadcasting, and that\u2019s not being addressed in this legislation. We are unclear on what the profit will be to broadcasting. We\u2019re really sceptical around the use of commercial advertising that will now target our tamariki mokopuna. Why clog up a quiet Sunday or public holiday\u2014Christmas, Anzac Day, and Easter holiday weekend\u2014when you can spend time with wh\u0101nau and just sit in front of the TV and maybe have a coffee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWhile some in the television industry might say, \u201CIf we don\u2019t have access to this revenue, this $6\u00A0million, it makes it hard for us.\u201D, the bigger question is: where is the dollar in the first place? It\u2019s the priorities of this Government that have shown that tax cuts for landlords is a bigger figure, a bigger priority, to the Government than the broadcasting industry. So we\u2019re now going to open up for our R\u0101tapu viewing, taking away the tapu of the Sunday, and opening it up for commercial advertising. The Green Party doesn\u2019t support this legislation. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u00227f3d1dedd4794ae8bf11d4328ad3d977\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f3d1dedd4794ae8bf11d4328ad3d977\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call on behalf of ACT to support the Broadcasting (Repeal of Advertising Restrictions) Amendment Bill. This bill makes a very simple change, but a very important change, to the Broadcasting Act 1989. We know, as it says, \u201CAct 1989\u201D\u2014we can see that it\u2019s outdated in some aspects, and one of the aspects that is outdated is section 81. So this bill is to repeal section 81. It doesn\u2019t do anything that we have heard from the previous speaker. It doesn\u2019t give any funding to any media outlet. What it does is it gives the opportunity to traditional linear TV and radio broadcast to go out and compete with other platforms to generate the revenue that they can through advertising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EOn this side, we don\u2019t mind sitting with our cup of coffee in front of TV or radio, listening to radio or watching TV when there are some ads being played, because we know that that\u2019s how they are going to generate revenue. On this side, we also believe that taxpayers should not be funding any businesses\u2014because media companies are like businesses, any other businesses, and so we should not be funding these media outlets through taxpayers\u2019 money, and then taxpayers\u2019 money should not be bailing out any struggling media companies. It\u2019s up to them to go out, create value\u2014create value for their customers, for the audience, to attract advertising. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWe want to make sure, because of the advancement of technology that we have seen\u2014there are so many different types of platforms available now for people to watch news, to watch programmes, and section 81 doesn\u2019t apply to those platforms. We want to see that it becomes fair for traditional linear TV and radio as well, so that they can also generate revenue through advertising. Yes, the estimated value is around $6 million, but it\u2019s up to them. They can go out, compete, create value, generate as much as they like in revenue through advertising. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s very important, also, to note that this is about modernising our Act\u2014this is about modernising our Act. It\u2019s not about anything else that we have heard from the previous speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003ENow, as the chair of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, I want to thank everybody who was involved in the consideration of this bill. I also want to thank all submitters. We received 41 submissions and we heard from six submitters, which\u2014I would say 41 submissions on this bill is a very good number. As it happens, we had a range of views from submitters. Some submitters thought that the restriction should be extended to all platforms, which we know is not going to be feasible. Some thought that maybe it should be a partial restriction. But we have to also take into consideration the cost of that, and that\u2019s why we have decided that it should be a full repeal of section 81. It makes sense. As I said, media companies are like businesses\u2014any other businesses that we have\u2014and taxpayers should not be bailing out any struggling companies. It\u2019s up to them to go out and generate revenue, and they will generate revenue if they are able to attract audience. We support this bill and commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce38fcd4d2124a7c8421c52ac9509d67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce38fcd4d2124a7c8421c52ac9509d67\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s an unusual thing, it\u2019s an unusual feeling, to actually be in agreement or in alignment with the Green Party. But, on this particular issue, New Zealand First stands on a conservative platform, and, therefore, in terms of the Broadcasting (Repeal of Advertising Restrictions) Amendment Bill, we do not support this piece of legislation and the removal of section 81, because it currently restricts broadcast TV advertising on Sunday and Anzac morning and both TV and radio broadcast advertising on Christmas Day, Good Friday, and Easter Sunday. These days, we believe, are special days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003ENew Zealand had a very strong Christian foundation at the time that a boundary was drawn, carving out these days as meaningful for religious observance and as meaningful to acknowledge those who served our country in wars overseas. Many Kiwis, though, may no longer be particularly religious in terms of their participation in formal services of worship and celebration, but this does not mean that they are not spiritual and that we should see every day as the same. The boundaries that we draw around our working lives and our special celebrations, we believe these are extremely important and we should uphold these. We would be all the poorer without them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EThe submissions on the bill were fairly evenly split for and opposed. I\u2019ll speak to some of those that were opposed to this piece of legislation. They basically said there was frustration currently at an overabundance of advertising already; immense spiritual and cultural significance for Pasifika communities, and that\u2019s why they oppose this piece of legislation\u2014that\u2019s the National Pacific Media Trust; the disrespect this bill has towards our fallen soldiers and Christianity. Those were some of the themes coming through that oppose this piece of legislation. One of the submissions which I particularly enjoyed reading was from Tom Frewen, who has a deep understanding of the media sector. What he said was that any extra revenue generated by allowing advertising on these particular days goes directly to the television broadcasters, directly to the radio stations, and not the programme makers, particularly when we\u2019re talking about TV content, the ongoing production and distribution of local content. The repeal of section 81 restrictions will, in fact, have the opposite effect. They will not receive any extra money for content making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003ESunday mornings have become the time for screening special-interest programmes, and my colleague H\u016Bhana Lyndon outlined a number of those special programmes that attract minority audience of little value to advertisers, although don\u2019t tell Jack Tame that. Sunday mornings, as we heard in a quote from Tom Frewen, \u201CThis is now a home for important series such as Tagata Pasifika, Attitude ([that\u2019s]for people with disabilities), Q\u002BA (political current affairs),\u201D\u2014if you didn\u2019t know that\u2014\u201CPraise Be ([our religious programme]), Neighbourhood ([for] community diversity) and What Now ([for] children).\u201D Those are really important programmes, and if there was commercialisation pumped in around those programmes, the value of those time slots would change, and those programmes might be pushed out to where there\u2019s absolutely no audience or might be gone altogether. Take a look at Sunday. The important role of television in connecting to marginalised niche or other non-commercial audience should not be overlooked. Sunday morning has become a place to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s thought around $6\u00A0million, or maybe a little bit more, will be generated by freeing up advertising on these special days. Now, this is based on assumption. This is based on what the industry had said. They may charge out at a rate card rate for those particular advertising slots. But what is not known is whether this is new money coming in from advertisers, or will they just cut their advertising pie to spread it out across those days and so not actually generate any new revenue going to the advertisers? There is no guarantee of new money coming in. Advertising budgets will be spread over additional days. That is what I believe will happen, because advertising budgets are already constrained. They\u2019re not going to necessarily find brand new money to add into these extra days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to address, finally, comments made by the Labour member Reuben Davidson criticising the Minister. Well, it\u2019s not my job to defend the Minister. He can do that himself. However, what I would like to point out in terms of what Labour did when they were in Government, spending a whole lot of money on a failed merger of RNZ and TVNZ\u2014$20 million. It was going to be more than $300\u00A0million to merge those two entities. But, at the very last minute, just weeks before the legislation got passed through, what did they do? Their leader, the Prime Minister of the time, Chris Hipkins, pulled a big handbrake on it. What a waste of $20\u00A0million! That is your legacy in terms of supporting the media industry\u2014not to mention the $55\u00A0million that was pumped into the media, which really broke the trust of our media entities. Public have really pushed back. They do not trust media. They do not trust news. All you have to do is look at every survey which shows that. In fact, they are avoiding the news like the plague. That $55\u00A0million for the Public Interest Journalism Fund did not help that, so, Labour, take a look in the mirror. I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022fffab520498c44bb99d6311ba22cc4fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fffab520498c44bb99d6311ba22cc4fc\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E M\u014Drena. Thank you. So it\u2019s second reading round. I\u2019m going to take a short call, probably to match the size of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3709731c9604cce8a1b43906c01ecc7\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: How many words?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022648087462e0845d6a65634883724a519\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: Seventy-something, I think\u2014anyway. I think 2.5 pages if you print it one-sided, but anyway. There were a couple of comments that the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs made this morning, and I just want to speak to those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EOne of them was the playing field. What I want to say to that is it must be a very tiny playing field when you\u2019re talking about a 73-word bill. Why would we bother, you know? What\u2019s the motive behind that? Well, we know what that is\u2014and I think that\u2019s been expressed and probably in the third reading we\u2019ll express it even more. What is does match, I think, in terms of levelling the playing field and the tiny field that it reflects, is it\u2019s more like the size of a Facebook and Instagram caption. You\u2019ll probably find more in that than you might in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThe other word that was used, and then contradicted by the ACT Party this morning, was\u2014the Minister did use the word \u201Cmodernise\u201D. It was stated. I want to say to that if modernising means cramming, bombarding, pushing, forcing all of that propaganda and all of that advertising every single day, that can\u2019t be modernising. That\u2019s just making\u2014a bombardment every day worsens it. Surely, why wouldn\u2019t you just leave a good idea alone? Leave that idea. Leave the Sundays alone. Leave those special days alone. Those days have a history. They have a good history and they\u2019re a good idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EAgain, I don\u2019t want to go too long, because I want to match the size of the bill. I\u2019ll just say leave it alone. In fact, keep it sacrosanct. In fact, support it. To suggest that $6 million is going to do terribly much I think is, again, the same size as the bill\u2014not a lot of size to it, nor a real recognition of the missing bits that really need support in the advertising world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ELeave Sunday alone for me, because that day we do\u2014we\u2019re not particularly religious, but we are deeply spiritual, and we read things on a Sunday like the Pedagogy of the Oppressed and such, like really good, ordinary reading that would open the minds of people and things like that. Just leave the Sundays alone, damn it, and let the minds of our mokopuna, our t\u016Bpuna\u2014leave them alone and stop this bad idea, Minister. Anyway, ka nui t\u0113n\u0101. Obviously, clearly by my discussion we will not be supporting this bad idea. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00220256741f9f7c4071ad79578255e95a07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220256741f9f7c4071ad79578255e95a07\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Gosh, five minutes is not enough for me to talk about this bill. We\u2019ll start with the fact that the Green Party does not support this bill. Let\u2019s talk about and address the problem statement of this bill, which is what we\u2019re seeing is a chronic underfunding of our public media. They\u2019re hoping the repeal of section 81 of the Broadcasting Act is going to plug that gap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWell, it certainly isn\u2019t, because as we see in the departmental report, there is a hypothetical $6\u00A0million in revenue\u2014hypothetical. They actually don\u2019t know. It could be nothing. As we heard from the previous speaker, Jenny Marcroft, there is no telling if this is just going to be spread over the other days or in terms of the advertising revenue that it\u2019s just going to be balanced out. In fact, by doing this, we may not get any revenue or the broadcasting sector may not get any revenue, and that is stated in paragraph 21 of the departmental report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAt the same time, what we are seeing, instead of funding our public media sector, is $2.9 billion for landlords. That is almost 500 times this hypothetical revenue that might be gained for repealing section 81, not to mention other wasteful spending that we see from the Government, such as additional blue and yellow tape, like the Ministry for Regulation, with a budget tag of $20 million and not very much to show for it, that overlaps severely with some work that the Parliament is already doing. So that\u2019s one of the problems that we are seeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think the bigger question that people should be asking when they are looking at bills like this, which has the broader ramification of a Government that wants to see further privatisation of the media sector\u2014because the public sector will actually put their policies and their leaders on line and on the hook and justify to the New Zealand public the decisions that they are making and also the positions that they are taking. It\u2019s what media should be doing and it\u2019s what good public media should be doing. Again, this is the Government trying to also address an interesting exothermic conundrum where what happens when you have hot air and snowflakes at the same time. So that\u2019s one part of the problem that we\u2019re trying to deal with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe other part, talking about consistency and modernisation\u2014this is something that the Minister himself has talked about. Yes, we do see a change in our media landscape. Yes, the departmental report does mention that streaming services and also TV on demand are not subjected to section 81, and also certain areas on the radio as well are not subjected to that. Interestingly, the Minister used the example of YouTube, and I would actually ask the House and also just members here in general to observe that, in fact, YouTube does not have advertisements on Christmas Day and also does not have advertisements on Easter holidays, because YouTube, as an American company, also understands the importance of those days. Yet, even though it\u2019s been quoted by the Minister, the irony is that we are repealing this so that we can have advertisements on those days as opposed to bringing up the standards altogether and encompassing them. According to the departmental report\u2014again, paragraph 60\u2014that seems to be too challenging to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWhat we do see is a cop-out. Rather than bringing everything up\u2014and we have heard from the previous speakers about the importance of those days as well as the importance for our children not to be subjected to advertisements and also the marginalised communities. We\u2019re not seeing the Government taking an accountability approach to this. So the Green Party will not support this bill, and we also encourage others to not support it, like the Greens and New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u00223b875651ebef4dca80f86c33b5cbbb59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b875651ebef4dca80f86c33b5cbbb59\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As a member of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, it\u2019s a pleasure to be able to speak on the Broadcasting (Repeal of Advertising Restrictions) Amendment Bill in its second reading. We went through an excellent set of hearings from submitters, from those who are impacted by this bill. I thank those who\u2019ve made submissions and also the rest of the committee who took this through in a diligent manner. It is a small bill, but it does make some changes that will mean that it increases the competitiveness across the system slightly. Even a small amount of money for broadcasters in this day and age is worthwhile, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00227db207d5418249888b9db0ed1f825d1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227db207d5418249888b9db0ed1f825d1e\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. The Labour Party is supporting this legislation, but you will have heard Reuben Davidson talk about it as a drip rather than what we need to support this sector. I know that there\u2019s been lots of beautiful analogies today\u2014snowflakes; I think my favourite is the snowflakes in hot air\u2014but my own analogy is we\u2019re just fiddling while Rome burns. We have a situation here where we know that an important part of our democracy is our fourth estate and, in this situation, our response is woefully inadequate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe are bringing a piece of legislation to the House, today, which repeals a section where the total cost or benefit to the media sector is $6 million, and that just isn\u2019t very much money at all. As my friend Reuben Davidson pointed out, the job losses are huge in this area, but I want to contribute to this debate my concern that what we have here is an utter erosion of our democracy. We have an absolute need to look at this problem in a wider way than we do today. While we support this legislation\u2014because it is a drip, and we hope that there may be some more water added to the bucket in the next little while, which is what the Government is supposed to do. It\u2019s supposed to lead in this area. It\u2019s supposed to support things and recognise the crisis that we have and address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe have heard people throw stones at the Labour Party and what it didn\u2019t do. Well, I have news for the Government: it is supposed to lead. Recently, what we\u2019ve heard is a lot of criticism of Labour from the Government when I\u2019m not sure that the Government realises what its job is right now: it is to lead, and it needs to be brave. Government has a role, and we all recognise that. That\u2019s why we\u2019re in this House, that\u2019s why we\u2019ve given up our other jobs and we\u2019re in this House. It has to lead. It has to be bright and smart and lead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhat I see here is a complete lack of leadership, because we\u2019ve got a tiny bill\u2014a tiny drip\u2014when we should be getting more. I just want to go back to one of those other analogies that Reuben Davidson talked about. I understand he gave a cake to the Minister, because there had been big promises of fixing this area and that hadn\u2019t been done, and he was celebrating that fact. I wondered if that cake was a sponge cake, because in this situation it seems like it is full of air and very little substance. I hope it was a sponge cake and I hope the analogy was understood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIf this Government wants to build something better in the sector, then, absolutely, we will be supporting it. We\u2019re taking a different position from our friends in the Greens and New Zealand First on this one. We do recognise what they\u2019re saying. We recognise that this is an erosion of something that is peace and quiet for people; it\u2019s non-commercial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e95d0db2b2404709bd5eb541724c6953\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Tinkering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206e54d43a11e4cd0a6f52f0065ace841\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. In a perfect world, I would love to be able to support that position, but we\u2019ve taken a pragmatic decision, because we can see people are desperate in this sector, and this is something\u2014this is something. This is a drip. So we\u2019re supporting the drip here. We\u2019re trying to make sure that we support any action, but it is so little action that it is of alarming concern. We have a population that relies on our media, and we are allowing it to be gutted. There was an attempt by Labour to try and address these issues, and we are no longer in Government, so we cannot be the people who fix this this time, and time is of the essence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThis is a crisis, this erodes democracy, this changes the way that things work in this country for ever. It couldn\u2019t be a more important time to act. We have changes in the media that are super significant, and yet we are not seeing that plan. We\u2019re a bit desperate, on this side of the House, to see change take place. We know that the voters chose this Government to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EMy challenge to this Government is: add to this drip. We\u2019re giving you our support for it. Add to this drip. Make sure that you\u2019re adding some substance to the cake. Make sure you are not fiddling while Rome burns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhat I am concerned about is that it\u2019s not the only area that I\u2019m seeing this in. I am seeing this happen across portfolios because of an ideology that says, \u201CIt\u2019s the market; we\u2019ll just step back.\u201D Well, it can\u2019t just be the market, because we\u2019ve got the market, people, and look where we\u2019re at. We\u2019ve got a market in a changing world, and we are failing our people in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhen we have something as important at stake as our democracy\u2014and we do. We have social media coming out with garbage. People are believing it over what should be our trusted media. When we gut hundreds of jobs, we are gutting not only the jobs but the knowledge, the commitment to broadcasting standards. Those people disappear. They also change, they morph. If you leave it to the market, what you get is a bunch of people who are just looking for click bait. They are no longer going to be as qualified. They are no longer going to be as committed to values. Some of the brightest people I have ever met are journalists. They are often highly knowledgeable, and we have been basically ignoring the need to support that depth in our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe call it the fourth estate for a reason. It is incredibly important as a pillar of democracy and it is no accident that we have seen democracies eroded in other countries as our fourth estate has been eroded, has been undermined. These are bright people. We need to support them. They aren\u2019t alone. There are other areas that are under attack too. There are people like our scientists who absolutely need the same kind of leadership from Government. I\u2019m not saying they\u2019re the only crisis, the only fire in town. We have a few fires in our Rome, but this is a very important one. It is a plank of our democracy, and where are we? We are at a point of crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe have decided to add our voice to supporting this bill but not because we think it is going to address much at all\u2014because it is a start. There is a difference, and there is a reason why I am not in a party with the values or the way that the Greens and New Zealand First are in\u2014there is a difference. I belong to a party that I consider pretty pragmatic and that is prepared to do this kind of thing\u2014and I hear the laughs from the National Party. I\u2019m just wondering whether, in fact, they are actually able to take into account that value in having a pragmatic Opposition that is mature and is prepared to support them in this bill, or whether they\u2019d like us to join a more extreme position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what they ask for when they laugh, when I say I\u2019m supporting this bill and I\u2019m actually talking about the bill in a way that is nuanced. That\u2019s what they invite. They invite people to move to an extreme position, because that\u2019s what that arrogance gets to. It gets to people getting desperate and moving away, so I hope that the member of the Government who\u2019s laughing at the present time thinks about that. That arrogance also gets you unelected pretty damn fast. That kind of smugness gets you unelected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIt is the Government\u2019s job to come up with better ways to help the broadcasters in our society and it needs to start to take that job seriously instead of relying on the old drivel of \u201CWe\u2019ll leave it to the market.\u201D and abandonment of this sector. Otherwise, there\u2019ll be a change of Government next time. Thank you. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002213d6c1cc88b84ad794af862e9c276869\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213d6c1cc88b84ad794af862e9c276869\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Before I take the next call, I just want to remind members to focus on what\u2019s in the bill. It is a narrow bill and it does repeal section 81 of the Broadcasting Act. I know that members have been talking about that, but just as a reminder as we move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef188d137f4640dd9e37c619a274d87c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef188d137f4640dd9e37c619a274d87c\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Excellent. Thank you, Mr Speaker, and thank you for that guidance. We have heard a lot of hot air around this bill, but I stand to support the Broadcasting (Repeal of Advertising Restrictions) Amendment Bill. Yes, it is a very small bill. Since the Broadcasting Act 1989 came in, technology and audience consumption habits have changed. The advent of internet smartphones and the emergence of on-demand and streaming services has meant that fewer people are engaging with content through traditional, linear forms. This amendment will actually make sure it\u2019s a level playing field so media companies can actually also compete with those streaming services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EAlso, if we look at society, when this bill was enacted, we didn\u2019t even have Sunday trading. Things have moved on. This is a pragmatic bill. It fixes up a problem. Therefore, I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022505021739ef146489470ee39c9a44299\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022505021739ef146489470ee39c9a44299\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00229718efd4c86b4c9fa8ba8a8b790ce1a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229718efd4c86b4c9fa8ba8a8b790ce1a3\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this particular bill, which focuses on one relatively small section of the Broadcasting Act. I have just been reading this particular section\u2014I know your direction, Mr Speaker, is to focus on this particular Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E I think what it\u2019s important to remember here is the perilous time that we\u2019re in, in relation to trust not only in Government but also in the news media. One of the reasons for that is the fact that they have had a lot of trouble maintaining the provision that they have with the amount of money that they have. This bill provides a small amount of money to the news media to be able to do that fundamentally important work that is important to democracy. Like other speakers, I recognise that there are different views in the House in relation to this. This is because some of the days that we\u2019re talking about have special religious significance to some people in this House, and I think that\u2019s a valid perspective, and that\u2019s a valid point of view. On our side of the House, on this particular bill, in the Labour Party, we have decided to support this bill because of the very, very important situation and the need that we have for support of our news media in this country. I think that\u2019s the first point. Firstly, the reason we support it is because of the importance of our independent media and the important democratic role that it plays.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe second point, really, is that, since this particular section 81 was passed, times have changed, and the way that we consume media has changed. I think everyone in the House, no matter how they\u2019re supporting voting on this bill today, would recognise that. I watch many of the programmes that were mentioned in the House\u2014I watch Q\u0026amp;A on a Sunday. I watch it on my iPad, and I do get advertising that pops up on that. I hadn\u2019t appreciated that, if I\u2019d turned on my television, maybe I would have had an ad-free experience. I think, probably, that\u2019s the experience of many people in New Zealand. This bill does modernise and keep up with the times, really, in terms of our consumption of media.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe other point that I wanted to note that I haven\u2019t heard\u2014but may have been mentioned in some of the initial speeches\u2014was just to focus on the fact that, currently in our legislation, if there\u2019s a broadcast that is broadcast primarily for audiences outside of New Zealand, the provisions of section\u00A081 actually don\u2019t apply anyway. It\u2019s totally possible to be watching television or listening to radio and, if the purpose of that broadcast is actually to be wider than New Zealand, there would be advertising. I think that\u2019s probably slightly a loophole and probably\u2014in terms of the way that we consume media in New Zealand\u2014actually something that we need to be thinking about closing. I think that\u2019s a positive aspect of this bill\u2014that it levels the playing field in terms of the people who are broadcasting from overseas and our New Zealand distributors as well. Those are the clear points here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIs this enough\u2014is this enough?\u2014to support our news media and to make sure that that essential fourth estate is able to keep holding us in this House, the people with power in New Zealand, to account? No, this isn\u2019t enough. It\u2019s a small amount\u2014that we think is worth supporting, even though it\u2019s small, but we also think that more needs to be done. I think you\u2019ve clearly heard that through the advocacy of our spokesperson in this area, Reuben Davidson. He is passionate about supporting New Zealand journalists. He\u2019s passionate about supporting New Zealand journalism. We here recognise that although sometimes journalists will make our lives more difficult through reporting on things that we do in ways that we don\u2019t necessarily appreciate, the fact of them being there and doing that role is essential to our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EMy father was a journalist, growing up. I have an immense amount of respect for the vast majority of journalists in New Zealand. I think they do a fantastic job, and I think they are often overtly criticised for not doing that when, actually, what they do want to do is just report and do their best to do their job. It might not always be what we as politicians want to hear, but it\u2019s essential to a country that is democratic. News media is absolutely essential, and they do need more support, and we do need to rely on them if we do want to continue with our strong democracy that we have had for a long time. We support this bill, and we urge the Government to go further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7abd9a374194b518e9c8de693e5a62d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7abd9a374194b518e9c8de693e5a62d\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to support the bill, obviously, but I want to raise a new point, which is that this bill will allow advertisements on TVs on Sundays\u2014that is, 52 Sundays in a year. That is an extra 14.2 percent of possible revenue and opportunity for TVs to have ads. That\u2019s where the National Government is supporting, because we are allowing businesses to have that freedom, to have the opportunity to grow new revenue that they\u2019ve always been restricted on. That is a very, very important field. To be honest, this bill, when it was first enacted in 1989, that was before the internet, before cellphones, before all of these portable digital devices that we actually all use on a Sunday. So fast forward 36 years later, I think it\u2019s time now to be modernised. Therefore, I support the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9ed39d57be3403c9b15002bc729c633\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9ed39d57be3403c9b15002bc729c633\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. Kei te t\u016B au ki te k\u014Drero m\u014D t\u0113nei pire e p\u0101 ana ki ng\u0101 p\u0101nui hokohoko i runga i ng\u0101 r\u0101 tapu. Ahakoa kei te tautoko m\u0101tou i t\u0113nei pire, he nui aku whakat\u016Bpatotanga hei whakaarotanga m\u0101 m\u0101tou o t\u0113nei P\u0101remata. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand to speak on this bill regarding advertising on our sacred days. Despite our support for this bill, I have several cautions for the consideration of us of this Parliament.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI rise to support the Broadcasting (Repeal of Advertising Restrictions) Amendment Bill. While I support it, I come with some cautionary whakaaro for us to consider as a Parliament. Back in my day, if you wanted to watch a programme\u2014say, Sons and Daughters\u2014you had to be sitting down at 5.30\u00A0p.m. Ads were a time to make a cup of tea and maybe quickly go and hang out the washing. Nowadays, it comes to you, whether you like it or not. You can be scrolling, and advertisements, while you\u2019re watching on-demand, just pop up on your devices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EThe reason, as I\u2019ve stated, that we are supporting this bill is to try and level the playing field for a struggling broadcasting sector. Six million dollars\u2014does it go far enough? Absolutely not. That wouldn\u2019t even be enough to support programming on one channel of television here in New Zealand. It is a drop in the ocean or, as Reuben Davidson so aptly put it, a drip on the fire. If it\u2019ll bring some reprieve to our struggling broadcasting sector, then it is something we will support. But what really needs to be happening is more support from the Government for this sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHeoi an\u014D r\u0101, ka hoki au ki ng\u0101 r\u0101 tapu. T\u0113nei te mihi ki ng\u0101 h\u014Dia o roto o Aotearoa wh\u0101nui, heoi an\u014D i roto o Ikaroa R\u0101whiti, ng\u0101 uri o C Company and D Company. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[However, I return to our sacred days. I hereby acknowledge the soldiers New Zealand - wide, and indeed within the Ikaroa R\u0101whiti, the descendants of C Company and D Company.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EIn the Waiap\u016B Valley, Anzac Day is the biggest calendar event of the year. People make the pilgrimage home to our Returned and Services Association (RSA), as they do at RSAs across Aotearoa, to remember our fallen soldiers. These are the cautionary tales I think we need to consider, remembering the sanctity of these days and what they mean to so many wh\u0101nau across the country. While we support this, there must be some consideration about the dignity and the standard of advertising that happens in these slots.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI personally have enjoyed a career in broadcasting, and the discussion here today is about dollars and cents. What it should be about is people and stories. What good-quality funding does for our broadcasting agencies is it allows people to hear their stories and see their faces. Good-quality broadcasting allows us to preserve whakapapa, celebrate our people, and report current affairs as they affect wh\u0101nau. That\u2019s why we need to take this legislation far further and we need a commitment from the Government to increase funding for the preservation of our stories. Good-quality broadcasting allows us to hear, for example, our reo M\u0101ori in real contexts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve talked about people who have lost jobs. This bill doesn\u2019t go far enough in terms of financial support for the industry. What is it funding? There\u2019s no commitment, and there\u2019s certainly no commitment to preserving p\u0101p\u0101ho M\u0101ori, M\u0101ori broadcasting. Not only is the storytelling, the retention and the preservation of our stories, our reo, and our whakapapa, and the celebration of New Zealand stories, New Zealand faces, New Zealand - made content not mentioned and not guaranteed; it also doesn\u2019t go far enough in encouraging people into careers in broadcasting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve talked about YouTube. These days, like I said, when I have conversations with previous colleagues from my broadcasting days, broadcasting is not so much an attractive career option for rangatahi M\u0101ori now. People are becoming TikTok famous. They\u2019re developing YouTube channels, and while kei te pai t\u0113r\u0101 [that\u2019s OK], sometimes in that, production values can be lost. That\u2019s why we need to support good industry and support good investment, and, like I said, while we support levelling the playing field, this bill does not go far enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EM\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori is something that we risk losing being captured by our good-quality broadcasters without investment and, as I say again, maintaining the sanctity of our r\u0101 tapu while preserving our stories. It\u2019s not just k\u014Drero M\u0101ori and kaupapa M\u0101ori but New Zealand stories. People want to hear and see and feel their own faces and stories and whakapapa broadcast with dignity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EN\u0101 reira, once again, as I said, we do want to support this bill merely for the fact to try and make the playing field fairer for our broadcasters, but it does not go far enough, and we call on the Government to increase funding to support the industry, not just at its current state, and to secure a future for good-quality broadcasting here in Aotearoa. T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u002280fc5f654f784b2aaa700e147a35584b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280fc5f654f784b2aaa700e147a35584b\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Hey, it\u2019s a pleasure to be the last speaker in this debate and to echo the sentiment in the House, which is that times have changed, and the media has to change with it\u2014no more so than our public media. So my message to the media, and it\u2019s been our message, which is clear: adapt to the changing times, don\u2019t expect the Government to continue to bail you out, make sure you\u2019re meeting the needs of New Zealanders, and you\u2019ll be, I\u2019m sure, rewarded handsomely through market mechanisms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThis bill makes a very simple change that does give some relief\u2014$6 million is not insignificant\u2014but it doesn\u2019t change the bare-bones reality of the sector. So with that I\u2019ll just end by saying I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b718a96c071e4321b970d89a4cb2d9bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b718a96c071e4321b970d89a4cb2d9bb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill was a subject of a conscience vote for its first reading, so I\u2019m prepared to accept one for this reading if members wish. This is the process we\u2019re going to follow. I\u2019m going to put the question. I\u2019m going to announce the result. At that stage, any member may ask for a personal vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228333cc2ef91e4af2aa85c8805fe10011\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Broadcasting (Repeal of Advertising Restrictions) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 94\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 28\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; New Zealand First 8; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000155\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022517c5e7d13874769b5f40b5c45a6955d\u0022\u003EStatutes Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa1d79033a2c4913b97b046df9931e5d\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022e25ea2011219433f981cd378b04c0972\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e25ea2011219433f981cd378b04c0972\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Statutes Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022364082e01a4c4880be2d4a0a9aa390d1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea6cb7ee43f841d8a704584f8cf3d10f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Statutes Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EAs the House will be aware, statutes amendment bills are legislative vehicles that make small, technical, and non-controversial amendments to a number of Acts. These bills allow amendments to be made that would not usually receive sufficient priority to be progressed individually. This bill is a great example of regulatory stewardship and ensures our legislation remains fit for purpose and up to date. The amendments covered by the bill include correcting drafting errors, updating language, and clarifications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe bill, as reported back, amends 41 primary Acts, administered by various Government agencies. Each of the amendments in the bill has received unanimous cross-party support. The bill was reported back to the Governance and Administration Committee on 16 April 2025. I\u2019d like to thank the committee for their careful consideration of the bill and the submitters for their contributions. The committee made several recommendations that clarify and refine the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe bill as introduced includes an amendment to the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act that intends to clarify that address verification is only required in higher-risk circumstances. The committee recommends an amendment to make it clear that address verification is not required as part of a standard customer due diligence process but only as part of an enhanced customer due diligence process. This clarification will provide immediate regulatory relief to businesses that have been conservative in their interpretation of address verification requirements, resulting in over-compliance. The change reflects the original policy intent that address verification is only required in high-risk scenarios, while also addressing submitters\u2019 concerns that the original drafting left too much room for interpretation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe committee also recommends an amendment to the Privacy Act 2020. This amendment clarifies that the six-month limitation period for a claimant to bring proceedings in the Human Rights Review Tribunal starts only when the Privacy Commissioner or Director of Human Rights Proceedings has made final decisions about all related complaints and matters and has notified the complainant about those decisions under relevant provisions in the Privacy Act 2020. This will assist the Privacy Commissioner\u2019s endeavours to settle substantive complaints and reduce the likelihood of adversarial behaviour between parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe bill also includes an amendment to the Oaths and Declarations Act to allow oaths to be made and declarations to be taken remotely. The proposal makes permanent similar changes that were enforced during the COVID lockdowns to reduce accessibility barriers. The committee recommended changes to the proposals in the bill that relate to the Oaths and Declarations Act. The main change is to ensure that the administrator can see the person taking the oath or making the declaration, to reduce the coercion by requiring the video to be on at all times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ELastly, the committee recommends removing the amendments to the Racing Industry Act 2020 and some of the amendments to the Conservation Act 1987 from this bill. The amendments to the Racing Industry Act and proposed changes to the Conservation Act were considered as part of other pieces of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EPart 20 of the bill amends the Incorporated Societies Act 2022. The committee has recommended that the House note that a number of changes were proposed by the New Zealand Amateur Sport Association which were substantive in nature. The committee did not propose any amendment, as the proposals were out of scope of the bill, but they did suggest the issue be further investigated. I have already taken the step of writing to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, highlighting this matter for further consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe bill will come into force the day after Royal assent. In summary, this bill will provide much-needed changes to the statute book. The amendments will ensure New Zealand\u2019s legislation operates efficiently and effectively. Again, I thank the committee for their work on the bill, and I welcome their recommendations. I look forward to the passage of this bill through its remaining stages and working constructively with parties as similar bills are put together in the future. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7288c09cc524746a50813b6b2066372\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7288c09cc524746a50813b6b2066372\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00229386e6dee9a1405da4c77d2a97d6d9e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229386e6dee9a1405da4c77d2a97d6d9e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s an exciting piece of legislation. It is actually an interesting function of Parliament to go through and take recommendations from all departments and Ministers as to what are, essentially, tidy-ups. It\u2019s important to understand the parliamentary procedure here, because statutes amendment bills are, pretty much by definition, not substantive amendments. Substantive amendments belong somewhere else, quite often in an omnibus bill. Then we have the kind of bills we\u2019re more used to seeing, which are really weighty subject-matter bills. This bill, essentially, is part of the function of Government and Parliament in good regulatory stewardship. The suggestion by some parties that we don\u2019t have a system of good regulatory stewardship doesn\u2019t really hold water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis is a good example of Government departments ferreting away, combing through the legislation for which they have responsibility, identifying bits where the language is outdated or where another amendment means it\u2019s no longer entirely consistent, and where clarifications are needed. There is a genuine moot point about when something stops being a statutes amendment tidy-up\u2014a modernisation, perhaps\u2014and when it starts being a substantive amendment. There\u2019s a very strong convention that if a member identifies an element of a statutes amendment bill that they consider is substantive and should be separately dealt with, or dealt with in a substantive piece of legislation, it should come out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI know my friend and colleague Camilla Belich, who sat on the committee, will probably talk about the oaths and declaration amendments. It is a good example where something is at the threshold where there were changes as to how oaths and declarations could be made. I understand these changes were made on an interim basis in COVID when, obviously, face-to-face interactions with lawyers and other people who were authorised to take declarations weren\u2019t possible. We had this kind of audiovisual idea. I do want to say that there are concerns, because we sometimes are a bit flippant or offhand about oaths and declarations, but a lot of what we do rests on the trustworthiness of information provided, so it is important to have, essentially, the solemn moment where you say, \u201CThis is my affidavit\u201D or \u201CThis is my statutory declaration\u201D, even \u201CThis is my passport photo\u201D, and say, \u201CI solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that it\u2019s true\u201D, that it is a true likeness, rather than sort of saying, \u201COh, there it is\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EGoing online is one thing, but the suggestion was that you could have an audio, I think, rather than an audiovisual interaction. Basically, you could be on the phone and say, \u201CHave you got this document in front of you? Is it true?\u201D Now, it\u2019s a bit loose, so, quite rightly, that was reviewed, and the members of the committee addressed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve got another six-odd minutes left, so I thought I\u2019d just list off all of the amendments\u2014or not. No, look, it\u2019s a bill that we\u2019re all behind. I did want to make those points around the functions of statutes amendment bills and the importance of members looking at them genuinely and making sure that they do the job and that they don\u2019t overstep the mark of genuine statutes amendment bills. With that, I\u2019ll leave it, and obviously we\u2019ll be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00220996283f9c064a098ed89608e6f76ed2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220996283f9c064a098ed89608e6f76ed2\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand to also support the Statutes Amendment Bill. I think, like the previous speakers have mentioned, this is a really interesting function and particularly a really interesting bill. Over the last few months, what we have heard is a number of regulatory system bills which make those sort of\u2014I guess in some ways\u2014mechanical changes and minute changes to a number of legislations as an omnibus bill, which is essentially a combination of these amendments to multiple bills at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, the Statutes Amendment Bill has an additional function in this case, which is that the bill should have unanimous approval by the Parliament. It\u2019s also important to point out that in this particular amendment bill, for those particular members of particular parties that are not represented on the select committee\u2014in this case, we do thank the Governance and Administration Committee for their consideration of this bill. But for those members or parties that are not represented on the select committee, they are also kept in the loop of the progress of this bill in order to achieve that unanimous support from the House of Representatives on this omnibus bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, it has been mentioned as well that although the introduction of the commentary of the bill talks about making 96 amendments to 42 Acts, it\u2019s important to note that as the Associate Minister of Justice stated in her contribution at the beginning, now it is only 41 Acts and not 42.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESome of them I will highlight. I won\u2019t be going through all 41 Acts. I will highlight some of the important aspects of these Acts. To start with, it is mentioned that the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act (AMLCFT) is one of the key elements of this particular omnibus bill. As we have heard also just this week\u2014and also as we have seen in the Justice Committee\u2014there are a number of bills that are currently relating to AMLCFT that are going through the House right now. As we see from the financial task force in their report, this is an area that requires updating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EA number of those updates ostensibly are substantial and deserve amendment bills in their own right. We have seen the second of those amendments being introduced in the House this week, with a possible third one on the way, as indicated by the Minister in charge. But in this case, the omnibus bill that we see here makes a minute change that sets out customer due diligence requirements that reporting entities such as casinos or financing institutions must fulfil, as well as amending areas such as addressing verification of a customer, beneficial owner of a customer, or person acting on behalf of a customer is only required according to the level of risk involved in the transaction, which offers a level of flexibility that we see that is required for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EA second part that is substantial in the Statutes Amendment Bill is around the Oaths and Declarations Act. One of the key adjustments\u2014and I\u2019ll talk more about the ability for Government to make such changes to regulations and also the flexibility of their offers and updates and modernisation that is required a little bit later. In the specific context of the Oaths and Declarations Act, what we are seeing is that it allows oaths, affirmations, and declarations to be administered and oaths to be taken by audiovisual link or audio link. Although this seems minute, it is an important step in allowing accessibility to the way that we look at our affirmations and declarations, particularly in light of the pandemic, where if we do have situations that people aren\u2019t able to do it in person, they\u2019re able to have that flexibility to do it online. We\u2019re happy to see this being introduced as part of the Statutes Amendment Bill to offer even more and even greater accessibility and inclusion to people who are making affirmations or declarations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThirdly, another substantial change of this bill out of the 41 Acts that are being amended is the Privacy Act. In this case, this is inserting a new clause 132A in this amendment, which would amend section 98 of the principal Act\u2014which is the Privacy Act\u2014and sets out when a person can commence proceedings in the Human Rights Review Tribunal. It specifies that a person must commence proceedings within six months of being notified of the decision by the Privacy Commissioner or Director of the Tribunal. It also further clarifies, in the cases where there are two or more related complainants, that the six-month limitation period will begin only after decisions for all of the related complainants have been made and notified, which is, again, an important step in allowing for that flexibility but also it makes sense in the case, which currently isn\u2019t allowed under the existing legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOne final point I would like to make in terms of some of the bigger changes that are noticed within this bill is around changes to the Defence Act, and particularly around certain changes as recommended on the inclusion and using a more gender-neutral term of aviator as opposed to the existing terminologies that are in the legislation. We do recognise the amazing diversity of the people who are serving our country as part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThose are some of the major changes that we see in this bill. However, it is also worth noting that two particular areas have been removed as a result of the select committee process. Although there are few submissions on this bill because it is a technical bill in nature, we do thank everyone who has submitted on the bill. It is worth noting that there are two particular legislations as a result of the select committee process that have been removed from this because of other considerations, the first one being the Conservation Act. The reason that clauses 25 and 33 have been removed as a result of the select committee process is because it is considered under the broader consultation and changes to that principal Act, which is currently taking place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EHowever, I would note that there are certain areas of this\u2014particularly in light of the defence to a charge \u201Cif the defendant can show that the discharge of the contaminant\u201D, which is in removed clause 33 and is something that is worth greater attention as part of that consultation process, because of the fact that there is a genuine concern from the Greens around the way that our Conservation Act works and the way that it has been, ironically, diluted. That potentially has the potential to allow more contamination of the natural environment. That is something that is definitely worth further attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIt is also worth noting that although the majority of the Conservation Act in this case has been removed, clause 34 has been retained, which is around taking indigenous freshwater fish without authority. This is specifically to do with a person must not take indigenous freshwater fish from any fresh water, except in accordance with certain sections of that primary legislation. Anyone who fails to comply will be considered as an infringement offence, and it is important for this adjustment to the Conservation Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Racing Industry Act, it is important to note that the original Part 33 of this bill on the Racing Industry Act has already been incorporated as a part of another bill that\u2019s already been introduced in the House and, therefore, it is redundant for us to introduce it here in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFor the final little bit, I would like to mention that bills like this show the incredible work that this Parliament and the House of Representatives do in order to update our regulations and legislation in a way that doesn\u2019t take a lot of additional resources and in a way that is done with the support of the entire House. It\u2019s a part of the normal function of Parliament. We see these sorts of changes all the time through regulatory system bills or omnibus bills such as this. We don\u2019t need to look for other avenues to make greater changes. So the Greens support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u002268285777c9e146738537f8b11aa5781c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268285777c9e146738537f8b11aa5781c\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to highlight very briefly the key changes. Obviously, it has the conservation and racing amendments, because conservation\u2019s being done separately by that Minister. Racing, we have already passed that Act, so that doesn\u2019t need to be included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EOn the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act, it is an area where I think we\u2019ve brought some clarity. Some of us would like to go further; however, in the nature of a Statutes Amendment Bill that needs to be small, minor, non-technical, and non-controversial changes, there wasn\u2019t the ability to go any further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EI would like to highlight the amendments to the Incorporated Societies Act got a surprising amount of interest, because there are a number of changes that groups like the New Zealand Amateur Sport Association Inc. would like to see made, but I do note that has been picked up in a member\u2019s bill which is in the ballot under the name of Laura McClure, and I commend her for the work that she\u2019s doing there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure everyone would have noticed that the legislative statement in paragraph 10 mentions a change to having audio link or audiovisual link. Can I just highlight that, actually, under the Oaths and Declarations Act, it is only an audiovisual link, so you can give that surreptitious wink if you are being held hostage while you sign your will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EFinally, changes to the Privacy Act\u2014another area that received a lot of questions around this ability to stretch it out to six months on the last claim. Can I just highlight\u2014because this was a question I asked\u2014that it\u2019s the last claim relating to one incident. So if there\u2019s an incident where someone puts in a claim that a decision was made with the wrong information and something was released publicly that shouldn\u2019t have been and maybe something else, it\u2019s the last of those claims that earns the six months. But if you then put in a different claim about a different incident or a different department, that will be treated separately. With that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddec52e994134bb183fc9253b96fc86a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddec52e994134bb183fc9253b96fc86a\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support the Statutes Amendment Bill. As we\u2019ve heard, these are minor technical amendments from New Zealand First\u2019s point of view. They\u2019re common-sense changes that cover over 41 different Acts, and they must be by consensus. On that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220371e383439346c2bdf2a6cf481c81a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220371e383439346c2bdf2a6cf481c81a6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022 data-id=\u00228ccda24a587a48428cd55af90c4c9505\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ccda24a587a48428cd55af90c4c9505\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. E t\u016B ana au, ki te reo M\u0101ori \u0113nei k\u014Drero. E t\u016B ake ana ahau ki te whakapuaki i ng\u0101 whakaaro o Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori m\u014D te pire e k\u012Bia nei, e k\u014Drerotia nei, e w\u0101nangahia nei e te Whare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira, p\u0113nei an\u014D, k\u0101re au m\u014D te t\u0101rua tonu nei i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a t\u0113n\u0101, a t\u0113n\u0101, engari ko t\u0101ku i te ata nei kia kawea \u0113nei t\u016B \u0101huatanga ki te reo M\u0101ori n\u0101 runga an\u014D i te whai p\u0101nga ki t\u0113nei Whare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EKua rongo t\u0101tou k\u0101ore he tino \u0101maimaitanga o te whakakaohanga mai o \u0113nei pire e wh\u0101 tekau m\u0101 tahi nei. Tika tonu kia whakatikahia ng\u0101 mea kua roa e t\u0101rewa ana\u2014e, t\u0113n\u0101 koe e Todd i t\u014D kapo whakaahua, ka nui te mihi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EHeoi an\u014D ng\u0101 mea e t\u0101rewa ana. Taku rua tau noa iho nei ki te Whare nei, t\u0113r\u0101 \u0113tahi ture kua roa nei e t\u0101rewa nei te whakatika, te whakahou r\u0101nei e h\u0101ngai p\u016B ki ng\u0101 mahi o te rangi nei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira e tautoko ana m\u0101tou i \u0113r\u0101 t\u016B \u0101huatanga katoa, tae atu ki te kupu whakataunaki, te k\u012B taurangi o te Whare, ar\u0101 e mea ana ko te oath i roto i te reo P\u0101keh\u0101. \u0112r\u0101 tikanga kia whakaaehia te tuku o te oath m\u0101 runga i te ipurangi, i te Huitopa r\u0101nei. E tika ana, e tika ana. Kei te 2025 in\u0101ianei, e tika ana kia \u0101hei te tangata ki te tuku i ana whakaaro, otir\u0101 te whakatairanga i \u0101na e k\u012B taurangi ai i roto i te oath. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EMe t\u0101 m\u0101tou e \u0101piti nei ki ng\u0101 whakatikatikahanga, ng\u0101 whakaaro nui m\u014D te oath nei, tika tonu kia uru ko te Tiriti o Waitangi ki roto i te k\u012B taurangi o t\u0113nei Whare n\u0101 runga an\u014D i te k\u014Dtuituitanga o te K\u012Bngi o Ingarangi ki t\u0101 te taha iwi M\u0101ori e noho nei i raro i te taumaru o t\u0113nei Whare. Ana, whakakotahihia \u0113r\u0101 whakaaro katoa ki te Tiriti o Waitangi, koia tonu ko te t\u016B\u0101papa e noho nei i raro iho i te t\u016Bnga o t\u0113nei Whare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira ko t\u0101 m\u0101tou, me whai w\u0101hi te Tiriti o Waitangi i roto i te k\u012B taurangi o t\u0113nei Whare, puta noa i ng\u0101 p\u0101ti katoa e whai w\u0101hi ai te mana o te Tiriti o Waitangi i roto i ng\u0101 kawenga katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira huri noa, t\u0101tou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou, kia ora t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand, and these comments will be in the M\u0101ori language. I stand to express the opinions of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori regarding this bill that is mentioned, discussed, and debated by the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003ESo, similarly, I will not merely repeat the statements of each of us, but instead what I intend this morning is that these functions be conveyed in the M\u0101ori language due to the relevance to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard there is no real concern about the collection of these 41 bills. It is absolutely appropriate that these things that have been unresolved for so long be corrected\u2014ah, thank you, Todd, for taking a picture, many thanks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EAnyway, the things that are unresolved. In my mere two years in this House, there is some legislation for which the correction or amendment has been suspended that is directly relevant to today\u2019s activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003ESo we support all of those features, including the affirmation, the Oath of the House\u2014i.e., known as \u201Cthe oath\u201D in the English language. Those practices to permit the delivery of the oath over the internet or via Zoom. It is appropriate, it is appropriate. We are in 2025 now, and it is appropriate that people be allowed to deliver their opinions, and indeed to uphold what they pledged in the oath. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EWe would add to the amendments, the major concepts for this oath, it is appropriate that the Treaty of Waitangi is included in the oath of this House due to the partnership of the King of England to the M\u0101ori people that remains under the shelter of this House. Now, bring all of those ideas together with the Treaty of Waitangi, which is truly the foundation upon which this House stands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EWhat we propose is that the Treaty of Waitangi should be included in the oath of this House, so that across all parties the power of the Treaty of Waitangi is included in all business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EAnd so to all of us, greetings and thanks to us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u002263265c65dc4c4a4484501ea1e5231c57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263265c65dc4c4a4484501ea1e5231c57\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. I rise to support, at the second reading, the Statutes Amendment Bill. It was a pleasure to be on the Governance and Administration Committee, ably chaired by Rachel Boyack and then Camilla Belich. We were consulted, as a party, in 2023, because the amendments needed to be minor and non-controversial. I\u2019d like to thank my colleagues for a good process\u2014some quite incisive questioning when the submitters came in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003ESome of it is about modernisation. My colleague Dr Xu-Nan picked up on the \u201Cairmen\u201D to \u201Caviators\u201D. There\u2019s also the removal of \u201Cimbeciles\u201D, which is probably a good thing, particularly in this House! Secondly, we have a huge amount of work here. Yes, the elected members work well. Yes, committee staff work well. But my biggest thank you is to the staff who looked through all of these, collected them all up, tried to marry the language so that we don\u2019t have inconsistencies in our legislation that either mean people don\u2019t understand what the law is or expose people to lengthy court processes. Thank you, thank you, thank you for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to thank the submitters. Most of them were very much on one or two out of those 41 reduced Acts. The Minister mentioned the New Zealand Amateur Sport Association earlier on. I\u2019d just like to say, in the work that proceeds after this, it seems very important that it\u2019s not about what the incorporated society does, if we\u2019re looking to make things a little simpler in the future. There are plenty of small conservation societies, or other special-interest societies that would feel very much the same as Amateur Sport, so I think it\u2019s very important that it\u2019s about how a society works, how its officers are held accountable, how we know that they\u2019ve actually put the money where they said they were going to put the money, that the members voting for something actually are members\u2014all of those issues should not be dismissed as too difficult for a small society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EThere were some helpful and detailed matters raised. The other modernisation, as well as some of the language of \u201Cimbeciles\u201D and \u201Caviators\u201D\u2014what a wonderful combination; it sounds like it could be a good bar name, really: \u201CImbeciles and Aviators\u201D\u2014is in the issue about addresses, and where you have to do address verification. We actually heard, quite strongly, that some of the organisations that have to do address verification these days\u2014and this goes along with the whole difficulties of postal voting for local government\u2014address verification is considerably more time-consuming and difficult, perhaps, than it used to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EAlso, we have minor changes to the Local Government Act, including putting all of the annual report requirements into one place. I would just say, that reminds us how much reporting local government already does. I urge parties that were not on the Governance and Administration Committee to actually note how this process has worked well, how the staff present a whole list of things, consult early with the parties, bring it to the public in case there\u2019s something we\u2019ve overlooked, and decide we\u2019re going to do it like this or we\u2019re going to proceed and request that Parliament follows up on some other matters. Thank you. The Greens support this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022f957112ace444a4987adb9803b0c0d71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f957112ace444a4987adb9803b0c0d71\u0022\u003EHon MELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I\u2019ll be very short. Ninety-six proposals which amend 42 Acts administered by 14 Government agencies\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226730109924044f108cbfb1d8e6d6a613\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment, sorry, was there a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022328b75eb09fd430c87087ea36be952b2\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s just a Labour call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231d712d54e464c90acebfe2c72def30d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, can you show me? Because I\u2019ve just come into the seat. Sorry, can we please start the member\u2019s time again while we just sort this out? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022398559930d914d6085522b4ce4d36224\u0022\u003EHon MELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Can I?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4a7bc83b26d4ee8af13a0ce48459b30\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you can take your call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022513a7ce6b68e4d6191b041b58a1b4f0e\u0022\u003EHon MELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. This bill contains 96 proposals which amend 42 Acts administered by 14 Government agencies. All of this Parliament supports the Statutes Amendment Bill, but I just want to mention one particular thing: the amendment to the Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act 2004, basically, has derogatory terminology about women, and it actually says, \u201Csubnormal woman or girl\u201D, and that is being changed to \u201Ccertain persons\u201D. I think that is a good thing, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002206e6ec84d2724462b6d9e398d4ec6f34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206e6ec84d2724462b6d9e398d4ec6f34\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. A pleasure to take a call on this. This is an important bill for Parliament because it changes minor things that would otherwise possibly not be, politically, the focus of Ministers bringing changes to the House. So this bill changes I think 41, now, particular bills\u2014that\u2019s what the legislative statement says, anyway. It makes minor changes. I just wanted to focus on a couple of those because, obviously, I wouldn\u2019t have time to go through all 41 changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe one that I wanted to start with was just the oaths and declarations changes. This change was put forward as a way of modernising the way that oaths and declarations are undertaken and allowing those to be done by Zoom or by whatever medium you want to use\u2014FaceTime. The key change that the committee made here from what was originally proposed was actually to make sure that that was an audiovisual link and not an audio link. I recall my time as a junior lawyer, and one of the major jobs that you would do is if anyone wanted to do an oath or a declaration or an affidavit\u2014even if it was a substantive affidavit\u2014it was your duty as a lawyer to go through that affidavit and make sure that the person took their oath and signed all of the exhibits. It was extremely time-consuming, but something that, I think, when you\u2019ve finished your professionals course and when you\u2019ve just newly qualified, you do take extremely seriously. I think that it\u2019s important that all lawyers\u2014or all people, not just lawyers\u2014who are able to take oaths and declarations do take that really seriously. The concern that we had around the audio only was really that when you are required to take an oath from someone in person, you want to make sure that that person is doing so genuinely in good faith, without coercion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EFor us, it made sense to modernise it in terms of accessibility\u2014people who are in remote locations, people who may be ill, emergency situations like we had in COVID\u2014to allow the audiovisual change. But the audio on its own seemed a step too far to be able to not see the context of where that person was; to not be able to read their body language; to make sure that they were, indeed, taking their oath or declaration with sound mind, and also without fear of interference or coercion. So I think that was a good change that the committee made, and I want to thank the members of the Governance and Administration Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAs you\u2019ll see from the report, I was involved for a part of this but also want to acknowledge Rachel Boyack, who was the chair of that committee at the beginning of this process\u2014although I do note that this particular bill has had a genesis in, actually, the previous Parliament, as well. Both Governments have participated in this bill, and, actually, it\u2019s taken this long to get these changes before the House, and that might be something that we can reflect on in terms of making these changes more quickly, because they are minor changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe other thing that\u2019s really unusual about this bill is it requires agreement from every single member of the House. If there was a single member in this House who disagreed with a particular provision in this bill, that provision would need to be removed, otherwise this bill could not proceed. I think that it\u2019s great that we have some bills like that, where each individual member, especially when we do have a Parliament which probably has more party discipline than many other common Westminster systems\u2014that we do have a system where any member of Parliament can look through this. If they haven\u2019t done so, I encourage you to, to make sure you are happy with these changes, because these are going forward, as they are only small changes, and they are going forward in your name, essentially, not just in your party\u2019s name. This is something that each individual member has the authority to have a view on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWith that in mind, it was something that I know the Governance and Administration Committee\u2014and I want to acknowledge the staff of that committee, who really were the ones who shepherded this bill through the select committee stage. They made sure that the communication\u2014and the elected members made sure that this was happening, but it was the staff who actually undertook a lot of the consultation to make sure that other parties who weren\u2019t represented on the Governance and Administration Committee also had the ability to see what was going through and have a view on that and to make sure that they are all happy with that. I think that was New Zealand First\u2014no, it was the M\u0101ori Party and ACT. We see we have Andy Foster, who is very actively involved from New Zealand First on the Governance and Administration Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIt does go through a number of different provisions. We did have submissions from some members of the public who would have liked the bill to go further and to do more substantive changes. Obviously, that\u2019s not the purview of a Statutes Amendment Bill\u2014it needs to be smaller changes that are not substantive policy\u2014but I think it\u2019s always helpful, and I am encouraged by members of the public who did want to make those submissions. You\u2019ll see that, in particular, in relation to incorporated societies, those submissions became a part of our report, and so that submitter has not\u2014although their changes have not been incorporated, their views have been represented in the second reading report to the House. So that time has not been wasted, and it\u2019s been raised in a really constructive way, I think, by the committee, to be able to look at moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI won\u2019t use all of my time on this, as this is not something which is, by its nature, political. It\u2019s something that we do in this House because we take our responsibility as legislators seriously, and we want to make sure that the Acts that govern our country have pragmatic and updated changes from time to time. I want to thank everyone who\u2019s been involved in putting this together over two Governments\u2014probably many different select committee members\u2014and the select committee staff who have worked on this, and also the people at Government departments who have suggested changes for the Statutes Amendment Bill. It\u2019s, I think, in a good state at the moment. Obviously, we\u2019ll be interested to look at it a bit further in the subsequent committee stage and third reading, but I think at this stage it\u2019s something that we can all be proud of that we have put together and will, hopefully, make the wheels of the country turn a little bit faster. So I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022214a5d0823994dfb8a1ec6689afe3a85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022214a5d0823994dfb8a1ec6689afe3a85\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Just before I take the next call, I just wanted to clarify so the speeches are in order: when an ACT Minister takes the Minister\u2019s call, then National takes call four, so everything is flowing as it should be. Just to clarify that there\u2019s a change in order when a New Zealand First or an ACT Minister actually are in charge of the bill. Thank you. I call Dr Hamish Campbell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0958e4f017d4f15aa8723404f06046b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0958e4f017d4f15aa8723404f06046b\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise in support of the Statutes Amendment Bill. We\u2019ve heard a lot in this debate that this is a vehicle for these minor, technical, and relatively non-controversial changes to these Acts of Parliament. Some of these pieces of legislation have been on the books from the 1950s and 1960s and really do need to be modernised. I think one example was the Housing Act 1955. It talks about a \u00A31 fee for an easement certificate, so I think this just shows one of the reasons why we need to put these sorts of bills through Parliament every now and again. It is to make life a lot easier. It does modernise it. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0f0891254a44c078b0465db52d5f271\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0f0891254a44c078b0465db52d5f271\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I don\u2019t know if we\u2019re still the fastest lawmakers in the West, but the way this Government\u2019s been pushing large amounts of legislation through the Parliament with scant regard for the basic principles of the democratic process\u2014that there should be space in lawmaking for select committees to do their work properly, to give members of the public and experts a chance to have their say on bills\u2014has been worrying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EBills like this are a very important way that the Parliament can not only modernise and update the minutiae of our statutes over time but also clean up some of the messes that are caused by over-hasty lawmaking\u2014things like the regulatory systems amendments that we put through from time to time\u2014and, certainly, statutes amendment bills like this are a very important way of cleaning house and making sure that we\u2019re constantly updating and improving the law so that it can better serve New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ELabour is supporting this giant compendium of often very minor and arcane amendments to 42 different Acts. I won\u2019t take any more time of the House but wish this bill well as it makes its way through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8b82a07823b4f9391bc64b74cb32a80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8b82a07823b4f9391bc64b74cb32a80\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak in support of the Statutes Amendment Bill in its first reading. This is an omnibus bill that amends a whole raft of minor amendments that are agreed on across the House. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u002243d05d6e29da4305a2a24b06e0bc81e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243d05d6e29da4305a2a24b06e0bc81e0\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to take a call on the Statutes Amendment Bill. As I\u2019ve heard my colleagues on this side of the House say, we will be supporting this bill. As we\u2019ve also heard, it\u2019s an essential tidy-up\u2014by definition, not substantive amendments\u2014across 42 Acts, because it\u2019s good regulatory stewardship. It\u2019s been very helpful listening when we were in the Governance and Administration Committee. I do want to thank the officials for their tremendous work in terms of when they were shepherding this, and thanks also to the public submissions to help committee members understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EParticularly, I will just talk a little bit about the oaths and declarations. In a previous role, I did a number of citizenship ceremonies. It\u2019s really important when people are taking oaths, and there\u2019s a bit of a challenge when you\u2019re doing that online. Government members and members of the select committee\u2014we asked a number of questions through the public submission process. It was really helpful to understand the dos and don\u2019ts, and particularly around the risks. So we had very good information, and important information, that the public officials raised at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EAlso, I want to thank the submitters who were able to be part of the process, because it\u2019s important for scenarios around Aotearoa that we understand, as committee members, what is relevant and what needs to be raised as risk, particularly in those provisions and proposals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI won\u2019t take all of my time. Labour supports this bill. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00221fa9402a4eb24f76a0358404523b39d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fa9402a4eb24f76a0358404523b39d7\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to be the last speaker and round off the debate in the Statutes Amendment Bill second reading. The Government whip often says, \u201CDull but worthy speeches.\u201D, and I think this is a bill that is characterised as dull but worthy. There are lots of small changes in this bill. I can see the unanimous support in the House. Thank you to the officials. Thank you to the Governance and Administration Committee. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022782aed9af57b45c887d51cb7317d5b46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022782aed9af57b45c887d51cb7317d5b46\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Primary Industries) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225594ca5d7bbc44ba930d2add1d69e293\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002206fd88f323e34481a831188ac39e61d5\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00228473681ef7874d1981eadfc635ccd3af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228473681ef7874d1981eadfc635ccd3af\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill and the Regulatory Systems (Primary Industries) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002262c6a645ee71487ea16d9b82a85b0099\u0022\u003EDisputes Tribunal Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc368b1de4ac4e6aba6977b679bab414\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227680b92b1fce4078a19d7746bf29298f\u0022\u003EPart 1  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000251\u0022\u003EAmendments to Disputes Tribunal Act 1988\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022288c6642237e4776b2bed4a8fcbaf4db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022288c6642237e4776b2bed4a8fcbaf4db\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We come first to the Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill and to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 7, \u201CAmendments to Disputes Tribunal Act 1988\u201D, and Schedule 1. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022deae8049ab964335a8477aa0155358df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022deae8049ab964335a8477aa0155358df\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E A very good morning, members. Great to be here and to be discussing this important Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn summary, the changes that are being effected by this Government are: increasing the financial threshold from $30,000 to $60,000, and a number of other aspects in regards to that. The primary purpose of these changes is to improve access to quick and low-cost disputes resolution so that people can resolve those disputes and those claims as fast as practicable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe assessment, in terms of the range that has been set, was considered by an independent group and has informed the setting of where that threshold is. It is the view of the Government that this is an appropriate level in which to maximise the benefit from that. With that, I very much welcome questions from the floor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8ac059133af449bb5215252f4475739\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8ac059133af449bb5215252f4475739\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We are absolutely supportive of increasing the jurisdiction of the Disputes Tribunal to $60,000\u2014and a shout-out to all those hard-working dispute tribunals referees who resolve numerous civil disputes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI guess my questions really revolve around missed opportunities and also safeguards, I suppose, because $60,000 is a lot of money, in short. One of the challenges here is\u2014and it was raised with the Minister of Justice relatively informally and discussed at the Justice Committee, but to no avail. One of the challenges is that Disputes Tribunal referees are often lawyers but are not required to be lawyers. In fact, the legislation itself refers to a suitable qualification such as law, medicine, or dispute resolution, or words to that effect. I\u2019ve always found that to be a little odd. One of my questions to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Simon Watts, is whether it was considered appropriate to have people not qualified in law making legal decisions that in fact significantly affect people\u2019s property rights and wealth, because $30,000 is a lot of money for many people\u2014in fact, if you think of the lowest-income New Zealanders, those on perhaps jobseeker benefits, it\u2019s pretty much the whole lot. I\u2019m a little concerned that we\u2019re increasing the powers of the Disputes Tribunal\u2014which is appropriate\u2014but not increasing the safeguards in a commensurate manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe first question is on the qualifications of Disputes Tribunal referees. Should we have Disputes Tribunal referees who are not legally qualified determining disputes which are $60,000? That\u2019s a decent annual income for some people. You know, it\u2019s a really genuine question. Section 7 of the Act deals with qualifications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe second question is this\u2014and I\u2019ve got a tabled amendment in this regard. It\u2019s around the fact that disputes in the Disputes Tribunal are resolved with regards to the law but not on the basis of the law. That is to say, a Disputes Tribunal referee, you\u2019ve got this dispute around, say, a car\u2014although that would go to the motor vehicle Disputes Tribunal, so I can\u2019t use that one\u2014a dispute around a boat worth $60,000. The Disputes Tribunal referee can look at the law and say, \u201CWell, I know the law of misrepresentation and I know the law of contractual mistake. I\u2019ve taken it all into account, but I\u2019ve decided, in this case, not to apply it.\u201D So you lose. Now, that\u2019s what the legislation says. You look at the law, you think, \u201CDoes that lead to a result I think\u2019s fair?\u201D When you\u2019re getting into this space, you can\u2019t have people, you can\u2019t have referees, applying their own views of fairness. We need Parliament\u2019s view of fairness, which is called the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOn the Table, we have an amendment that says that when you get over $30,000, that doesn\u2019t apply\u2014your sense of fairness doesn\u2019t apply; the law applies. I think that\u2019s a really useful change to make it clear that the law of New Zealand is the base moral code in civil disputes, not the reckons, however informed they may be, of our good Disputes Tribunal referees. So there\u2019s two points, perhaps, to start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc0f8295c6d0411a9d3622317f0fa736\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc0f8295c6d0411a9d3622317f0fa736\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much to the member Duncan Webb for the question. I think the point that\u2019s being raised in the context is whether the referees are qualified to make decisions in regards to the higher value to which the thresholds have been adjusted. I mean, it is very much the view of the Government that the existing appointment criteria that is in play is sufficient for requiring those suitable candidates to ensure that they are appointed as referees. It also maintains the flexibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ETo be specific about the number of individuals that we are talking about, we are talking around 62 individuals that fulfil these roles. Of those, approximately 58 are lawyers and have the qualifications of that context, and the remaining four, in the main, have greater than 10 years\u2019 experience in this area. So it is the assessment of the status quo that seems to be appropriate in the context of the personal attributes, knowledge, and experience of those referees, and on that basis, we\u2019re comfortable with where it\u2019s at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022d57e4d88bad54a66a26b083b12f2212e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d57e4d88bad54a66a26b083b12f2212e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the Minister for responding to that question, but I think the question that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb is raising is a really good one. The Green Party does support his amendment on this bill\u2014particularly the one around clause 7(b), new section 18(6A) of the principal Act. I think that\u2019s a really important safeguard for what this bill is trying to achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI just want to check with the Minister in terms of what we\u2019re seeing in the regulatory impact statement around the policy intent of this bill. I want to specifically focus on what we see in Part 1, which has multiple sections around increasing the threshold from $30,000 to $60,000. Part of the reason for this is so that we are able to ease some of the burdens around the function and some of the issues that we\u2019re seeing in terms of the District Court. But, again, like what the Hon Dr Duncan Webb mentioned, the Disputes Tribunal does fulfil a very different role in comparison. What we\u2019re also seeing here is, in terms of the limitations and constraints as expressed in the regulatory impact statement, that the scale of the problem is unknown in terms of the increase of threshold from, let\u2019s say, $30,000 even up to $100,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI guess my first question to the Minister is: if the scale of the problem is unknown, what expectations would the Minister have\u2014maybe via the officials\u2014that this is something that is genuinely going to serve the purpose as intended by this legislation of increasing that threshold from $30,000 to $60,000? That\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI also want to check with the Minister whether, as part of, again, the regulatory impact statement, other things have been considered and have been ruled out as a result of this as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8b3a6ab14744f84bf2d9a588137c0f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8b3a6ab14744f84bf2d9a588137c0f8\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I really appreciate the opportunity to ask some questions of the Minister, because I, of course, do agree with moves that are taken to ensure greater access to justice, which I think is a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EMy first question is a bit of a general one and it\u2019s in relation to the Law Society submission, which talked about the value of increasing access to justice. However, their view was that it doesn\u2019t set aside the need for a more comprehensive review of access to tribunals and the Disputes Tribunal in particular. They made a number of proposals for change. Their suggestion was that there was a need for a first principles assessment of the tribunal. The first question is a general one about whether that was considered at any stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe second question is in regard to the threshold itself. Obviously, colleagues have spoken to the needs for safeguards as we increase the threshold, but when the Rules Committee was considering improving access to civil justice, their report suggested an increase to $70,000. I wonder whether that was based on data in regard to the abandonment of a portion of the value of a claim, or whether the data demonstrates that actually that abandonment portion really fell up to the $60,000 threshold, which was the basis for going with $60,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThen also, in relation to the Law Society\u2019s submission, they noted that there was an issue in terms of narrow appeal grounds and that the Rules Committee proposal had suggested both an increased threshold but also that there was potentially a need for an appeal right to exist as well\u2014whether that was something that the Minister had considered, even if it was a limited appeal right of some regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThen my last question for now is in relation to clause 5, which amends section 14, and that concerns the abandonment of a portion of the value of the claim to bring it in line within the jurisdiction of the Disputes Tribunal\u2014so within the band of the new $30,000 to $60,000. My question is really a monitoring one: is there is an intent to review the new abandonment provisions to see whether there\u2019s justification to shift the threshold even higher in terms of what, I believe, the Rules Committee had suggested, either going to $70,000 or to 100,000? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe91f7243a7242a8a176e6a9ba7a3724\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe91f7243a7242a8a176e6a9ba7a3724\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair, and thanks to members for those questions. In regards to the questions by the member regarding clause 5\u2014and also broader questions in regards to increasing the financial threshold higher than $60,000\u2014that was considered; however, in the context of the public interest, we were not of the view that the Disputes Tribunal model was appropriate to be hearing higher-value cases. It is appropriate, obviously in the view of the Government, to increase it from $30,000 to $60,000, but not beyond that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EOn points raised in regards to the Rules Committee, submitters to that Rules Committee, as part of the Disputes Tribunal model, noted that it may not have suited to hear higher-value claims, where parties would benefit from a right to appeal and legal representation. In that context, I believe that answers it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThere were other questions, initially, from Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan in regards to threshold changes. I\u2019ve provided that overview in my opening statements, as to why we have moved from $30,000 to $60,000 in regards to efficiency. That covers off those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00228d1448a207294726980ac41ee524f05b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d1448a207294726980ac41ee524f05b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I don\u2019t think the Minister has yet addressed my question relating to section 18 of the principal Act in respect to which there is an amendment on the Table. I\u2019ve just grabbed a copy of the bill. Section 18(6) says, \u201CThe Tribunal shall determine the dispute according to the substantial merits and justice of the case, and in doing so shall have regard to the law but shall not be bound to give effect to strict legal rights or obligations or to legal forms or technicalities.\u201D Now, my view is that once you\u2019re getting into this kind of number, the legal rights and obligations are pretty handy, and we should be actually applying them. I have no doubt that 95\u00A0percent plus\u2014maybe 99\u00A0percent\u2014of the time, that\u2019s exactly what tribunal referees do. But I don\u2019t think we should have a forum where you can just say, \u201CI reckon that the substantial merits and justices of the case are this.\u201D, because the substantial justice and merits of the case are what the laws says it is, not what a Disputes Tribunal referee thinks it is. I\u2019d appreciate the Minister\u2019s response on whether he thinks you should be able to decide civil disputes for up to $60,000 on a basis other than the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy next point actually flows from that, and that\u2019s on appeal rights. The small claims tribunal was started off for $500 disputes, and it was a quick-fire, no-appeal dispute resolution. That was fine at that level, but now we\u2019ve got up to this level, we\u2019ve got a question about what appeals are allowed. Section 50 of the Act deals with appeals, and the only ground of appeal is that the proceeding was conducted by the referee in a manner that was unfair to the appellant. Now, that\u2019s a way of saying a breach of natural justice. It\u2019s not that the decision is unfair, not that the legal conclusions are unfair, not that the factual findings are unfair, but that the proceedings were conducted in a way that was unfair. A classic example is where the respondent rings up and says, \u201CI\u2019ve had a car crash. I can\u2019t make it on time.\u201D, and the referee doesn\u2019t adjourn. It proceeds without hearing from them and decides against them. They didn\u2019t get a fair hearing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s a classic example of being proceeded unfair and a good ground of appeal. What about if they get the law wildly wrong? What about if they say, \u201CI\u2019ve had a look at the law of misrepresentation, and I think it says this, and, therefore, you lose.\u201D, and they just got it wildly wrong? That\u2019s a classic error of law. As long as they have regard to the law, it doesn\u2019t matter if they get it right or wrong. In this section, as long as they look at the law and go, \u201CI\u2019m going to look at the law of misrepresentation.\u201D, an error of law is not a basis for an appeal, because what subsection (2) of section 50 says is \u201Cthe Referee fails to have regard to any provision of any enactment that is brought to [their] attention.\u201D You can have a regard to it and entirely misconstrue it, but it\u2019s not a ground of appeal. Now, I\u2019ll tell you what. If I had a referee who just had a bad day and got the law wildly wrong and then said, \u201CYou owe that fellow $60,000.\u201D, I think I should have a right of appeal to someone who is able to correct that error.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, findings of fact are different. \u201CI\u2019ve listened to you both. I think I believe you and not you.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s a finding of fact. I can accept that you can\u2019t appeal on those things or that it\u2019s a much higher threshold for appeal, because findings of fact are always going to have an element of the first-instance decision maker having a better opportunity. But making a gross error of law\u2014turning your mind to it and getting it wrong\u2014should be a grounds of appeal. That\u2019s what my tabled amendment deals with. It provides that that for claims over $30,000, an error of law should be a ground for appeal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, if the Minister would like to stand up and say, \u201CNo. Even though they make an error of law and get the law wildly wrong, I think it\u2019s OK for someone to get a windfall of $60,000 and the other person to lose out entirely unjustly and at variance with the law to the tune of $60,000.\u201D, I\u2019d be interested to hear that, but I\u2019d much prefer him to say he\u2019d support my tabled amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022c58013087cb84d71ad0385dab1513791\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c58013087cb84d71ad0385dab1513791\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister, for your response to my questions, and I also do think that the previous speaker who raised some really important questions. Yes, the Minister has mentioned it, but the threshold as noted is not a small amount, and we see in the regulatory impact statement. It\u2019s quite a substantial increase from recent years and actually since the history of the threshold for the Disputes Tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOne of the things that the Minister mentioned, and I just want to pick up on what the Minister said before, is in terms of the threshold being set at $60,000 in terms of also\u2014I think the Minister mentioned\u2014the public interest. I really want to get the Minister\u2019s thoughts around what we see in the regulatory impact statement for paragraphs 55 to 57, which is that there is what would be, I guess, the negative implications of increasing that threshold in terms of the public\u2019s confidence in the Disputes Tribunal and also the impact to natural justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAs we heard from the previous speaker, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, because of the significant increase in amount, this may have implications around natural justice if the error of law and misrepresentation is not considered thoroughly, which then will have the adverse effect of eroding public confidence around this. It would be really good to hear from the Minister on that in combination with what we\u2019re seeing as reported in the regulatory impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, another thing I would like to pick up on is Schedule 1, which is the sections attached to clause 7 in Part 1 of the bill. One of the things around Schedule 1, inserting into Schedule 1AA new Part 3, \u201CProvisions relating to Disputes Tribunal Amendment Act 2024\u201D, is that clause 3(2)\u2014noting that there might be conversations later on around the commencement date, but the commencement date is said to be three months after the Royal assent. Subclause (2) says \u201CIf the claim has not been disposed of before the commencement date, the person may not, on or after the commencement date\u201D amend or withdraw the case. Basically, this allows people a three-month period where you may get people withdrawing their case, which is currently with a threshold of $30,000 and reapplying for up to $60,000. Is there an anticipation by the Minister or by the officials of the extent that this may happen? That would be my second question to the Minister on Schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e861565844f549668a8b1e2abec6486b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e861565844f549668a8b1e2abec6486b\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks again, members, for those questions. Just in response specifically to new clause 3(2) of Schedule 1AA, inserted by Schedule 1, primarily, the change there is to stop someone from, in effect, amending a claim during the process in order to allow them to take benefit from the changes that are going\u2014so it means that claims that are already in play need to continue under that model. So that\u2019s the response around clause 3(2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ETo the points raised by the Hon Duncan Webb in regards to decision-making mandate, appeal rights, and other components, at a fundamental level, the decisions that are made are obviously a core aspect of the model that is being implemented and intended in terms of the principles around fairness, common sense, and efficient decision-making. Now, the referees, in this case, are required to make decisions in accordance with the substantial merits and justice of the case while also having regard to the law, as opposed to having to administer the law and give effect to strict legal rights or obligations. So, therefore, by making any changes, that could risk undermining the tribunal\u2019s access to justice benefits such as timely resolution or finality of the decision\u2014then that is the reason in that context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhy are the appeal rights limited? The primary consideration there is that limited appeal rights, in principle, provide finality for the parties. However, there are mechanisms\u2014you used an example of coming in, bad day, how would that play through? Well, appeals from the Disputes Tribunal to the District Court are obviously at play. There is judicial review by the High Court also. But in an instance of an individual such as the case, the party to a claim, or a person who is party to a claim, who is unhappy with the outcome is able to apply for one rehearing. So I think in the context of the issues raised, practically, that\u2019s the process through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWe do not support the tabled amendment in regards to clause 7(b), and to be honest\u2014I\u2019ll cut to the chase\u2014clause 7(a) and clause 9 as well, but in regards to clause 7(b) specifically, we don\u2019t for the reasons outlined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe counterfactual to Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s points around access to justice: well, the reality is that by not increasing the threshold from $30,000 to $60,000, the assessment is that there is potentially about 2,000 claims that would not have access to justice. The benefit of increasing the threshold means that more New Zealanders have access to justice, and the counterfactual of not increasing it means that those people would not. I think, irrespective of position, more people having access to low- and affordable-cost justice is a position that we want to be in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a874ef7349544c7ea92c26dc655a1c3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a874ef7349544c7ea92c26dc655a1c3a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new section 50A is ruled out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new subsection (6A) in section 18 is ruled out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002284bdb13a99034d659ffa53fe3f6a670a\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to other enactments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224461896694334bfab3229c3d216ad214\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224461896694334bfab3229c3d216ad214\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 8 to 10, \u201CAmendments to other enactments\u201D, and Schedule 2. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022afdd7f10b1a942edb6f638b44853f9b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afdd7f10b1a942edb6f638b44853f9b4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I understand that Part 2 amends the Disputes Tribunal Rules, and I must say I was very surprised to have those amendments ruled out of order, because they all dealt with situations where the limit had been increased. In fact, my other amendment deals with the Disputes Tribunal Rules and, in particular, the fees. What we have is an amendment that inserts a new fee of $468\u2014a filing fee\u2014\u201C\u2026 in respect of which an order of the Tribunal is sought under the claim is $30,001 or more.\u201D The filing fee in the District Court, which can be waived, is $260.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis is an access to justice point. If I\u2019ve got a claim\u2014if someone has caused me damage, in some way\u2014of $35,000, but I don\u2019t have $468 to file, I don\u2019t get to go to the Disputes Tribunal. Poor people don\u2019t have $468 in spare cash to pursue people who cause them harm. My amendment is to say that where there is a claim over $30,000, a Disputes Tribunal referee has the power to waive the application fee. It may be that it should be in whole or part, but, in any event, you can imagine, if you\u2019ve been defrauded, scammed, out of your savings and you find the scammer and you want to try and get it back, but, crikey, your bank account has been cleaned out, you haven\u2019t got $468, and you\u2019re not going to get it from instant finance. My view is that, if you\u2019re going to have genuine access to justice\u2014and, arguably, this is all about access to justice\u2014you need to be able to say, \u201CIn this case, this fee is waived.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I know that there\u2019s now a new power on a Disputes Tribunal referee to order that the filing fee be repaid if you win, but that\u2019s not the same. This is about getting into the tribunal, not getting award coming out of the tribunal. It\u2019s really important that we recognise that. It\u2019s not good enough to say, \u201CWell, if you win, you get your fee back\u201D, because you\u2019re never going to get there. You\u2019re not even going to get to ask the question unless the tribunal says, \u201CAll right.\u201D It\u2019s hard enough for many people to have the wherewithal to do what\u2019s a pretty legalistic process. I totally appreciate that it\u2019s low form\u2014nothing like the District Court or High Court\u2014but for many people this will be the first interaction they have with the justice system. They\u2019ve got to do all the form-filling and come up with $468. The idea that you can waive a District Court fee for $260 but not a Disputes Tribunal fee for $468, frankly, is a nonsense\u2014it absolutely beggars belief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAgain, this was raised at select committee and wasn\u2019t something that I was able to persuade members to make a change about, but now that we\u2019re here in the committee of the whole House and the Minister is there\u2014and I know he\u2019s a thoughtful Minister, and a Minister who\u2019d want to see people have access to justice and doesn\u2019t want to see people who don\u2019t have $468 precluded from bringing their claims\u2014maybe he\u2019ll be able to accept that. Of course, if he wants to go and improve the drafting, I\u2019d be happy for us to report progress on this bill so that could be done as well. I think we should take our time rather than rushing through it. It is a serious point, and it\u2019s a real one, because there\u2019ll be plenty of people who don\u2019t have that money and will be denied justice. I\u2019d be interested in his response to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00222b1d1206b4794e01a612e0c408980638\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b1d1206b4794e01a612e0c408980638\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think just to add on to that, one other thing that has been discussed with officials as part of the committee stage was the fee setting of $468, as we see here in clause 9, is a simple extrapolation of the doubling of the baseline amount of $30,000 to $60,000. The assumption that was made with no evidential basis as we saw during the select committee is that people with a $30,000 claim will have $234 to be able to file as a filing fee, ergo people who have up to $60,000 claim will be able to pay for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think the other consideration there that needs to be mentioned is it\u2019s not simply that that is a scale from $30,000 to $60,000\u2014that is, if your claim is $30,001, you see a doubling of filing fee as opposed to a progression\u2014so I just want to also check with the Minister in terms of the rationale for something like that. Why was there only one band that was considered, which is doubling the fee, but not, I guess, a progression or proportionality, if you\u2019re looking at, let\u2019s say, within $100 or $1,000 brackets, as a result? I think that does, as the previous speaker the Hon Dr Duncan Webb said, further limit people\u2019s ability to access justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI want to raise another point on top of this. One of the things is in terms of what we see in the regulatory impact statement, on the final page, around cost breakdown. Now, the cost breakdown here is also based on the estimation of the $60,000 increase, including the total estimated filing fee revenue. As the Hon Dr Duncan Webb mentioned, if people have to, essentially, take a leap of faith and put down the filing fee or potentially there\u2019s an option for them to have the filing fee deducted if they won a particular case in the tribunal, is the estimated filing fee revenue that is on page 34 of the regulatory impact statement correct, or are we also anticipating that we will not get to that amount either because this won\u2019t have the projected benefit and revenue generation opportunity because not that many people will have that amount of money to file? Or will there be a greater reduction because people will not be able to pay for those filing fees, which are then just generated as potential debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThat is, I guess, one question further on from what the Hon Dr Duncan Webb mentioned, and the second question is around the estimated filing fee revenue in the regulatory impact segment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1ae580a9e694864a262f3d7490a2f1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1ae580a9e694864a262f3d7490a2f1c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you, members. I think both questions are really focusing on the point around whether the higher filing fee will be a barrier to access in the context of individuals, and which noted\u2014first and foremost, the reality, as the Government sees it, is that it is appropriate for users of the tribunal to pay a fee in order to recover the costs of running that tribunal. That is because, actually, a $30,000 or up to $60,000 investment does provide significant private benefit in using that tribunal to resolve a dispute. It is also a significantly more efficient mechanism in order to bring proceedings than, say, through the District Court process, due to other aspects which are obvious but particularly around court fees etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI think the point in reference to particular individuals who are in a financial sense going to find that threshold is above their means from an affordability point of view is that, separately, the Government is considering a proposal that is progressing through the Regulatory Systems (Tribunals) Amendment Bill, which will basically enable referees to put in place that the respondent pay the cost of the filing fee back to the party who is a successful applicant. So that mechanism in order to ensure that that repayment is made is something that has been considered as part of that process, and that will ensure\u2014I think, to the points raised in some contexts\u2014that the costs do not fall on those that have been wronged and will remove a further barrier to access injustice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo, in my view, that covers questions on clause 9(2), inserting new paragraph 5(1)(d), and the points raised by the two members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d48e2700e3de47ff91bac5ce5e1a2589\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d48e2700e3de47ff91bac5ce5e1a2589\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 9 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002211e86b6c50034f2cb152aba7680cda1e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022da92db1b7a094ac68cf564dd95b21772\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da92db1b7a094ac68cf564dd95b21772\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just make a comment that many times votes have been changed in this House, so individual members who are new should not feel that they are isolated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022286d5ddfcaf24482a058752681553bed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022286d5ddfcaf24482a058752681553bed\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Schedule 2 set out on Amendment Paper 259 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022812988f1d1d0488db51001af6fca30e9\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5bfa585dff948838fdc832b1d3760eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5bfa585dff948838fdc832b1d3760eb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come to our final debate, clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002256e4dc977094494ab68626f76b3215dd\u0022\u003ERegulatory Systems (Primary Industries) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c4e3faa7cb04f7aaa662b7510b5b61f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1d9c293378944858f24ad96356eb106\u0022\u003EPart 1  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000320\u0022\u003EAmendments to Agricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines Act 1997 and secondary legislation made under that Act\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229208d362715e4708b8748e98c3197b63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229208d362715e4708b8748e98c3197b63\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, so now the House is in committee on the Regulatory Systems (Primary Industries) Amendment Bill. I\u2019ll just give the Minister a moment to come into the chair. We start with the debate on Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 3 to 25, \u201CAmendments to Agricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines Act 1997 and secondary legislation\u201D, and Part 1 of Schedule 4. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u00226cbaefad77004c4e96d549d590817f7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cbaefad77004c4e96d549d590817f7c\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7b68ce578944840b5e122e40e3276b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7b68ce578944840b5e122e40e3276b7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? Yes, there is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022117c061e0da441c98dd72f4e27c068bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022117c061e0da441c98dd72f4e27c068bb\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Given that there are many changes to this piece of legislation, albeit some minor and technical, we do think it\u2019s a good idea to traverse and ask some of the questions of the Minister, particularly for those people at home who will be completely glued to their televisions, wanting to know what we are doing in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ESo my first question to the Minister is with regard to Part 1, clause 4(3), which replaces section 2(2) with (2)(a), (b), (c), and (d), where it says \u201C(2) The Governor-General may from time to time, by Order in Council, for the purposes of this Act, (a) declare any substance, mixture of substances, or biological compound to be an agricultural compound; or\u201D\u2014and then it goes on to (2)(c), where it says \u201Cdeclare any entity to be a pest; or (d) declare any entity not to be a pest.\u201D So my first question is: what criteria will be used to determine whether an entity is or is not a pest, or was once a pest but no longer, or was never a pest but is going to be a pest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThe other question I have for the Minister is with regard to new clause 4A, where we amend section\u00A09, \u201CApplication for registration\u201D, where it states \u201CSubsection 1(b) does not apply to a substance, mixture of substances, or biological compound that is exempt from registration as an agricultural compound under section 8A for a limited period of time.\u201D Can the Minister describe for the House or those watching at home under what circumstances or why a substance, mixture of substances, or biological compound may be exempt from being registered as an agricultural compound? If it\u2019s not an agricultural compound by reason of the exemption, what might a substance or mixture of substances or biological compound be classified as instead?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef35a0b2c711438cbde3df7827c343fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef35a0b2c711438cbde3df7827c343fc\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Chair. My question is also around clause 4 and section 2, which is the \u201CInterpretation\u201D section. I\u2019m particularly interested in whether the Minister can help us by giving some examples of what the newly defined agricultural compounds would be that are involved with \u201C(ix) mitigating adverse impacts on the environment; or (x) mitigating emissions that contribute to climate change;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMy apologies, I don\u2019t have the principal legislation in front of me, but I\u2019m assuming that what happens with clause 4\u2014section 2 amended, and new section 2(1)\u2014is that now there will be a type of agricultural compound that relates to the mitigation of adverse impacts on the environment, and another one on mitigating emissions. As I\u2019m reading this blind at the moment, if the Minister could give some examples and explain why it is that they should be within this agricultural compounds and veterinary medicines regime, I think that would be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00225d1e6313a9a441df8227f25fdee9ef25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d1e6313a9a441df8227f25fdee9ef25\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Look, thank you very much. Again, on Part 1 and the issue of inhibitors, which is a new area of science in our products that many people across agriculture are looking to for\u2014they might see them as magic bullets, but they certainly see them as part of the progress in terms of reducing emissions from agriculture. So it is a little bit confusing. In clause 2(2), \u201CSubpart 3 of Part 1 comes into force 12 months after [the rest of the bill] \u2026 under subsection (3).\u201D, and it ends the one-year transition supporting amendments to include inhibitors under the Agricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines Act 1997 (ACVM) and its secondary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI understand the complexities, and this really was sparked by\u2014I think it was\u2014Bovaer, or it was a compound developed in Europe mainly for indoor farming systems, but there was talk of it being very useful. Indeed, one of the processing companies in New Zealand had approved it in principle, but the process through the ACVM Act had not been completed\u2014and indeed, actually, the company hadn\u2019t applied for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo the question I have for the Minister is\u2014of that particular inhibitor we know the case study, but how many more others are likely to come through? Indeed, do these changes protect farmers, processing companies, and exporters from the risk that we saw in the past, from dicyandiamide, where it ended up being in the supply chain? These regulations are critical. I think the exemptions in this piece of legislation are designed to, I guess, create some competitive tension and some innovation in the system. But I do need to know, or we should hear from the Minister, as to whether we\u2019ve got the right protections in place to ensure proper scrutiny and that exemptions under registration work positively for farmers in the long term, not just open up a commercial opportunity that puts the whole export sector at risk. I look forward to that answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2cd84559cfe466f9df7f6e93a149fad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2cd84559cfe466f9df7f6e93a149fad\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to just move on to the \u201CRenewal of registration\u201D piece at the moment\u2014new section 22A, for the Minister\u2014where it talks about the decisions to grant an application for renewal or a new registration. Whilst I understand that there would be reasons, perhaps, why a renewal wouldn\u2019t happen, for clarity, though, I want to know\u2014because, obviously, when you go through the process of renewing a registration, depending on what it is, it can be quite time consuming, and there can also perhaps be a bit of cost to it. I wanted to ask the Minister, under new section 22B, \u201CDecision on application for renewal\u201D, where the director-general may or may not grant an application made under new section 22A \u201Cif the Director-General is satisfied that\u2014\u201D X, Y, Z\u2014but it does go on to say that \u201CIf the Director-General is not satisfied that the requirements in subsection (1)(a) or (b) have been met, the Director-General must refuse to grant the application and the registration expires\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWhat I would like to know from the Minister is if the criteria or requirements haven\u2019t been met, will there be, or was there, consideration given to perhaps allowing someone just a bit of leeway of time to get whatever it might be in order, or does it just get declined and then they have to complete or start the whole process all over again? Is there a cost to that, or would there be a time limit set, whereby they can look to reapply and ensure they\u2019ve got everything in order? Just for a bit of clarification, I think that would be helpful. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022271d96a0db354787a24886057daacc2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022271d96a0db354787a24886057daacc2f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. On this question as well\u2014and hopefully the Minister will answer us on Part 1\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237cdaf44ba514995a088b485169b29ad\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t had a chance\u2014you keep asking questions!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a3b4a97930e42479ba16c5db042b00f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I welcome you to stand up, so I will keep this short for you, Minister. I\u2019m looking forward to you answering the question about what I was asking about in terms of the definitions clause, talking about mitigation of adverse effects and mitigating emissions. We\u2019ve heard from Damien O\u2019Connor about the inhibitors, and clause 14 has the definition of \u201Cinhibitor\u201D. There is a change, at clause 14, to the regulations with the phrase \u201Cinhibitor\u201D, which links back to those things that mitigate the adverse effects. If you can comment on what the change here is doing, that would be lovely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u002233e21f43811c4cb2ab2ad890c3205062\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233e21f43811c4cb2ab2ad890c3205062\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you, and colleagues, thank you for those questions. A lot of this, I know, was traversed or covered during the select committee, but important that we bring it here. At a higher level, I\u2019ll give the explanations, the assurances that are required, and I apologise if I don\u2019t get them in the order that they came out in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIn as far as, I think, Jo Luxton was talking about pests\u2014was that you, Jo? Yeah. The bill does not amend that. It is in the existing Act, so it doesn\u2019t make any change at all. It\u2019s just the way that it\u2019s listed where the other change is, it keeps pests there. There is no change to the legislation as a result of this bill. The definition of what\u2019s a pest and how it\u2019s considered and how it\u2019s dealt with remains the same as under the existing law. So that doesn\u2019t change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EDamien O\u2019Connor talked a little bit about some of the inhibitors and proof of safety and will it have an impact upon exports and so on\u2014very, very important points. What the legislation does and says is that in some cases there are products that don\u2019t need to be regulated or can\u2019t be registered, and this will now allow that to happen, but it doesn\u2019t speak to how you register. That\u2019s a separate piece of legislation. This is merely recognising that there will be compounds of things that may well be used overseas, or, you know, those who want to bring them and use them in New Zealand\u2014they don\u2019t have the ability to. For instance, there\u2019s not the ability to get permission to have a trial for some of these things, or not the ability to seek registration for new compounds\u2014and he\u2019s mentioned inhibitors. In effect, this means it will be possible to register, but the process to go through to seek registration and proof that they are not harmful in any way to production in New Zealand\u2014or elsewhere\u2014doesn\u2019t change by that Act. That remains elsewhere in other Acts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThen, finally, in as far as\u2014where are we\u2014new sections 22A and 22B, inserted by clause 6, are concerned, around the Agricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines legislation, the Act does not provide for renewing trade name product registrations that have expired. Instead, applicants are required to undertake the necessary process of completing a new application. The amendment through this bill provides for renewals where registration details are current and the product remains compliant with conditions of approvals of registration, reflecting how the Ministry for Primary Industries is addressing the problem through administration. Ultimately, if the product registration was valid, the information is still there, its authorisation can be renewed without having to go through the whole full process again. I think this is something that keeps the level of protection that is required in all of these areas, because it doesn\u2019t alter it. It just actually takes away what is viewed as unnecessary bureaucracy but doesn\u2019t weaken protection under law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002285298175484448c9829c83d65a05716d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285298175484448c9829c83d65a05716d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Look, thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the Minister\u2019s response to some of that. I\u2019m not trying to be overly dramatic here, but I guess the Minister refers to the secondary process whereby these inhibitors, for example, will have to go through the Agricultural Compounds and Veterinary Medicines Act 1997. They\u2019ll be registered. Farmers will know about them in the pipeline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAs we saw with Bovaer, there was groundswell of demand from the primary sector to get access to these new goods. I guess the question to the Minister is to give us an assurance that the process of approval will indeed remain robust, because I think it is critical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThen, the one other issue around continued registration of a trade name\u2014you know, things do move forward quite quickly, and so there is an expiry date for a reason, and then just rolling over the registration seems, on the face of it, to be sound. But the question might be that because New Zealand farmers and horticulturists are very innovative and they push the boundary sometimes on the use of chemicals in particular\u2014there is a lot of off-the-label use, which I don\u2019t want to expose unnecessarily but to say that once a product is in the system, the temptation to use it off-label, and in a world that is increasingly focusing on residues\u2014we just need to have from the Minister, and I\u2019m sure he probably will, but I think it would be important for him to say, that, actually, the approval process, the monitoring, and the re-registration will require a scrutiny of the systems to make sure they\u2019re up to date with what is an ever-increasing international level of monitoring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6b16c1852f8457b9ca5164f129a757b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6b16c1852f8457b9ca5164f129a757b\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to recognise the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor\u2019s support of Groundswell there! He said there was a \u201Cgroundswell of support\u201D, and I think he meant he \u201Csupports Groundswell\u201D. He got it the wrong way around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThis bill before us doesn\u2019t deal with the issues that he mentions. It only says that something is possible. It doesn\u2019t say how it will happen in another piece of legislation. More broadly, his point is a very important one. New Zealand\u2019s an export nation. We produce very high-quality, safe food the world wants. Our regulatory systems are better than many. In fact, they stand up to scrutiny all over the world. We see, from time to time, when something may inadvertently get into a supply chain, that it is found, often by the processor, and they take action quickly. They too, as do all New Zealanders involved in food production, understand the importance of the rules and regulations that back up the claims that we make overseas. This legislation doesn\u2019t change that at all. It merely says that there will continue to be evolutions of things that may well be advantageous for farmers and food producers to have in New Zealand. His request about whether or not the system of verification\u2014ensuring it is fit for purpose and won\u2019t harm food production in New Zealand\u2014remains, I would hope, across successive Governments into the future, that remains an absolute priority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll give one more example of why I think this is very important. Damien O\u2019Connor is correct that there will be a number of products from around the world that aren\u2019t developed in New Zealand that farmers may want available to them to help them meet their obligations to reduce emissions. As an example, in Australia, they have innovative products that help them reduce emissions in their dairy herd. We shouldn\u2019t be in the place where they\u2019re not available to New Zealand, because it puts us at a disadvantage. It puts up cost, and it takes away a tool that farmers may use. However, that they have, in Australia, accepted a product for use in the production of milk is not a reason for us to automatically accept it here in New Zealand. The reason for that is we have a greater trade consequence if there is an issue than Australia would. The reason for that is we export the majority of the milk and dairy protein we produce. Australia consumes the majority that they produce, and if there was an adverse effect, it would not have the same impact upon their trade around the world and access to markets as it would for New Zealand and to the detriment of New Zealand dairy farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI would argue that our regulatory system of looking at new products to become available in New Zealand is, to some degree, more rigorous\u2014I\u2019m not saying that in Australia it isn\u2019t rigorous\u2014than other countries\u2019. It is by necessity, because of what we produce in our trade profile. There are times when the companies who want to import it, or the processors or the farmers themselves, are frustrated that it takes longer than they would hope it might or think it should so that they can have a level playing field with, say, Australia or the European Union. To them, I say, I understand, but we work as fast as we can so we can give the assurance, because, actually, we are a trading nation. I think the points that Damien O\u2019Connor is making, around ensuring that our regulatory system makes decisions almost to the point of being more cautious than sometimes others would be, is not unreasonable for us to expect to be recognised in legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAgain, this legislation doesn\u2019t change that. It merely says that there are compounds that are available and that they might want to use in New Zealand. They can be registered, but they will have to go through the process of verification through other pieces of legislation. This doesn\u2019t alter that. It doesn\u2019t make it easier. It doesn\u2019t make it harder. It merely says it is possible for them to be registered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022af72d7f230fb42c4ac38441ad94aa3e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af72d7f230fb42c4ac38441ad94aa3e8\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry to go back to this point about the mitigation of the environment and of emissions and in relation to inhibitors, but is the Minister saying\u2014is the point here\u2014that an application can be made, and those are new criteria, being the environment and the reduction of emissions, but there are no changes to the overall regulatory process? That\u2019s just what I\u2019m trying to work out\u2014what the hook is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00221a12d7ad73c84867a471808112b9c7bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a12d7ad73c84867a471808112b9c7bc\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry, I guess what I was saying is that the process isn\u2019t weakened, but, yes, they are in addition. Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u002237090cdea6034eeea1da36e675daaccc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237090cdea6034eeea1da36e675daaccc\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to new section 76A, inserted by clause 11, with regard to the director-general, subsection\u00A0(8) where it says, \u201CIn addition to complying with the Legislation Act 2019, the Director-General must, if the Director-General considers it practicable, cause a notice that is secondary legislation to be brought to the attention of persons likely to be affected by it by notice or publication in any newspaper or trade journal, or by any other practicable means\u201D. What is the Minister\u2019s thinking with regard to what does it mean if the director-general \u201Cconsiders it practicable\u201D? What does \u201Cpracticable\u201D mean in this particular situation? What criteria must the director-general use to consider whether it\u2019s practicable or not practicable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThe other thing I wanted to ask about, and it might seem a bit silly and a bit strange, but under subsection (10) it says, \u201CThe Director-General must\u2014(a) notify the persons affected by the notice individually in writing, whether by post or facsimile\u201D. Do we still have faxes? I don\u2019t know, and I just wanted to check on that as well. It might seem small and trivial, but if we\u2019re updating the legislation, we may as well update it properly. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0d29cb7492c45e3858a7bceb6bd0e14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0d29cb7492c45e3858a7bceb6bd0e14\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, we\u2019ve found a fax machine. In essence, it describes the ability to provide the information. More broadly, elsewhere in Government, I don\u2019t think there\u2019s a body of work that says, \u201CHow do we most easily update the way that we must communicate things?\u201D Rather, if you look in legislation, it prescribes it, and when we go back, there are some bits of legislation that say, \u201CIt has to be by telex or a registered letter\u201D or so on. In the end, I am advised that as long as it is provided to the person\u2014and it can be by written letter or facsimile, which can have a broader implication than that\u2014then it still works within the Act. But you are right\u2014there are not many fax machines left anymore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f1ea601007234a34a9c16b898f053fd4\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Animal Products Act 1999 and secondary legislation made under that Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022df79bde3c62744e19148daff8db0613c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df79bde3c62744e19148daff8db0613c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to the debate on Part 2, which is the debate on clauses 26 to 60, \u201CAmendments to Animal Products Act 1999 and secondary legislation made under that Act\u201D, and Schedule 1 and Part 2 of Schedule 4. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00222beea0bee9ca4cb5af929bd192a34b2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222beea0bee9ca4cb5af929bd192a34b2c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E For the most part, Labour supports the legislation across the board, but there are some questions that need to be asked, particularly in this area. It\u2019s not about the Animal Products Act or the products. It\u2019s actually the sales, distribution, and application of these things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI have a couple of questions for the Minister, tied up with the compounds, but actually it comes through the Animal Products Act, and that is that veterinarians, traditionally, were always the sole distributors and outlet for most of these animal products. Of course, that changed and the doors were opened to other companies. Livestock companies are able to sell many of these products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe question I have for the Minister is: in making these changes here, did he consider whether we should take a slightly more precautionary approach and introduce some other guidelines? We have some products that actually can be distributed in bulk to farmers. There are some requirements; however, the monitoring of those application requirements is sometimes a bit loose and a bit vague, and so there are some risks with that. The question to the Minister is: what consideration took place alongside, I guess, the streamlining of these animal products regulations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u002270d9c00dc11646a98d6d6a15bf7a6c7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270d9c00dc11646a98d6d6a15bf7a6c7e\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Well, to be honest, I didn\u2019t look to the same degree of detail at this as the member who\u2019s just asked, Damien O\u2019Connor, although I did seek assurances that it would achieve the things he has asked about and that actually, in the case of where veterinary medicines are provided, maybe in larger form, there isn\u2019t additional risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EBut, actually, I think I found a note somewhere\u2014from the time that the legislation was worked up and introduced to the House\u2014where the Minister had absolute assurance that this part of the legislation would work well. It was signed by the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, who brought the legislation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022a84977cb16724b2690bead70138575b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a84977cb16724b2690bead70138575b7\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. We\u2019re talking here\u2014the conversation that has just been had\u2014in part about Schedule 1 of this bill. The clause is clause 49, about categorisation as a primary producer, and then Schedule 1 of this bill introduces new Schedule\u00A01A, \u201COperations that characterise person as primary processor\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a very interesting schedule for a bill. It talks about \u201CAvian eggs\u201D; \u201CDeer velvet\u201D\u2014you get words like \u201Cslicing\u201D and \u201Cdrying\u201D in there; \u201CFish: on-shore processing\u201D, and again, it talks about the \u201Ctubing of squid\u201D; and \u201CFish: processing at sea\u201D. If the Minister can comment on why it is that these four different sets of operations are now categorised as \u201Cprimary processor\u201D and how that will be helpful for those regulations, it would be useful. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2596fbb6a724d85a5cd805b3060ff52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2596fbb6a724d85a5cd805b3060ff52\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Just to follow through on\u2014I may have slightly misled in early discussions around animal products, indeed, not just being products for farmers, but actually products that we\u2019re exporting. I guess that my colleague has pointed to areas of finfish, and I guess if you were to go through the kind of oversight that this piece of legislation is looking to improve\u2014and we accept that, that the objective is to improve\u2014there are a lot of things in there: compounds, devices, documents, equipment, identification. These are quite complex systems, and they govern our exports. So ensuring that the director-general\u2019s oversight, whose export and official assurance is required in terms of export\u2014these are right at the leading edge of the protection of our reputation internationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAgain, just seeking an assurance, because I think it\u2019s an opportunity for the Minister to promote the objectives of this piece of legislation. But as we\u2019ve seen with amendments brought to the Primary Production Committee\u2014two different lots of amendments from the Minister\u2014the question of, you know, \u201CIs this sufficient?\u201D or \u201CWhat else are you going to change?\u201D or \u201CWhat would you like to change?\u201D, it is an evolutionary process. Not you, Madam Chair. No, no, you wouldn\u2019t change anything, no. But for the Minister: beware, in a rapidly changing world, the trade agreements that we have negotiated require ever-ongoing improvements. Are we satisfied\u2014is the House, as a committee, satisfied\u2014that the changes here are going to, indeed, uphold those protections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00226fe440f3ae5947b7a4b7abd57ec7e0f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fe440f3ae5947b7a4b7abd57ec7e0f0\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E The answer is yes, I am, and they will. In essence, this is a regulatory settings bill. As broad as this one is, it\u2019s an opportunity for us to look to update, to take account of these changes\u2014some of the things that are now required as far as giving certainty, particularly when it comes to trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI think the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor\u2019s point is a valid one, that actually the work that has been done here by the House at the moment doesn\u2019t finish with this piece of legislation. It is actually ongoing. From a regulatory point of view, we should always be looking for ways to make things more efficient and more effective but also to achieve the outcome that we need. As a food-producing nation, it is very important we have a regulatory system that keeps up with evolution and changes and advancements but also with the protections that we need when it comes to how we produce food and the assurances that we give, and so the changes that he is alluding to do achieve that. But no, I wouldn\u2019t want to give the impression that this fixes it and therefore the work should not continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAs far as the questions around Schedule 1 are concerned, the only change is that rather than these three or four areas being dealt with through Order in Council, we now will have the ability to do it in regulation, and so it\u2019s making it uniform. All other processors are dealt with through regulation. For some anomalies, these are Order in Council, so we\u2019re just actually lining up to making it the same. That doesn\u2019t, again, change the nature of what we want to achieve. It is making it the same for all processors. It\u2019s just a simplification of regulation so it\u2019s done in one way and it becomes uniform and standard, as opposed to having to deal with different processors who have the same obligations or requirements upon them in different regulatory ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00225e234d3f2fc44f5db6aebb5ee23610e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e234d3f2fc44f5db6aebb5ee23610e4\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Just one more short question on this, and that is around the amendments. I have got the principal legislation, the Animal Products Act, in front of me as well. I just can\u2019t see why there\u2019s a change here around the definition of \u201Canimal\u201D, which means any member of the animal kingdom and includes any mammal, bird, finfish, shellfish, reptile, amphibian, insect, or invertebrate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296000cf27e2445218a6a9cb073910173\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member. Can you just say which part or which clause you\u2019re referring to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235e4d40138864d668bc195f0c6257971\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. I\u2019m on clause 56, which is \u201CSection 4 amended (Interpretation)\u201D. It relates back to the principal Act and the definition of \u201Canimal\u201D, which has this phrase that you can \u201Cdeclare a creature or an entity to be an animal for the purposes of this Act.\u201D, which I think is fascinating in terms of what that creature might be. I do acknowledge that that is already in the principal legislation, so I\u2019m just wondering why these changes are in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2aac715993f47a792688d4bc250765e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2aac715993f47a792688d4bc250765e\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E It is not changing the definition of what an animal is. It\u2019s just clarifying what a declaration is. So this is a declaration\u2014I think, from memory or advice, it takes it from one Act and brings it over to this to say \u201CThis is what a declaration is.\u201D The definition of what an animal is hasn\u2019t changed since the Bible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f81cbe0a1f10475b860c0b9f575ae0bc\u0022\u003EPart 3  Repeal of Animal Products (Ancillary and Transitional Provisions) Act 1999\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae2bb1f766dd464c91eca302dcb16d51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae2bb1f766dd464c91eca302dcb16d51\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to the debate on Part 3, which is the debate on clause 61, the \u201CRepeal of Animal Products (Ancillary and Transitional Provisions) Act 1999\u201D. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00222ea15a5dadc749b8a71f4ceabb4a216b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ea15a5dadc749b8a71f4ceabb4a216b\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E I think it would be right for the Minister to briefly touch on why it is that this Act is being repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u002271356e9d6c4e44c3ae5a15bb8cabbb23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271356e9d6c4e44c3ae5a15bb8cabbb23\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Chair. There are two answers. The first, most straightforward one is the previous Government decided it was important to do so, and I accepted that advice when I became the Minister, right? It hasn\u2019t happened often, but since we\u2019re all supporting this, I thought I would. The second thing, though, is we often find pieces of legislation that are redundant\u2014they are usurped by advances or other areas and so on, with other pieces of legislation coming in to replace them. In the case of many parts of this legislation, members should view it as a tidying up of the statute book, which creates certainty and is easier for businesses in the private sector to be able to use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002203d640f2091d41509fd27df7526aa6b7\u0022\u003EPart 4  Amendments to Animal Welfare Act 1999\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022677bce1f86e040a084d176e88407822f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022677bce1f86e040a084d176e88407822f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to the debate on Part 4. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc443563e04a4d7cbd0cb712bffbee8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc443563e04a4d7cbd0cb712bffbee8c\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I want to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to clause 63, \u201CSection 36 amended (Obligations relating to traps)\u201D. Now, in this country, we hold our heads up high with our high standards to animal welfare, and that when we go hunting or trapping, we do things in a humane way. With this new subclause (2A), \u201CA person who, without reasonable excuse\u201D, I\u2019m interested to know what a \u201Creasonable excuse\u201D might be. Also, \u201Cfails to comply with subsection (1) commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $900.\u201D\u2014I\u2019m interested to know how that figure was come to, $900, when we hold ourselves to such high esteem with regard to our animal welfare and control of pests in a humane way. Nine hundred dollars\u2014\u201Cnot exceeding\u201D. So it could be $200. Why is there not a specific amount there? Why only $900, when we really should be wanting to put people off doing things in an inhumane way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022e02dedf7ef8d457a919ef60380b379fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e02dedf7ef8d457a919ef60380b379fb\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you so much. Indeed, it\u2019s not only $900; it\u2019s a tripling of the fine. At the moment, it is only $300 under legislation, and it\u2019s tripling to $900. It says \u201Cup to\u201D because you allow the courts, in the case of a court case, to make a determination as to what should be relevant rather than saying, \u201CIt must be this\u201D, because there could well be\u2014I can\u2019t think of any\u2014mitigating circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EOften in legislation, we\u2019re saying, \u201Cunless there is reasonable cause or reason to do so\u201D, which means that it\u2019s not an absolute infringement or crime. Again, it would be for a court to determine whether or not that was the case. I don\u2019t believe the legislation has gone through to say what it would be or it wouldn\u2019t be, and the reason that wouldn\u2019t make sense is people would say, \u201CWell, I\u2019m just going to go and do it this way, because obviously this is justifiable.\u201D But, it is a tripling of the fine\u2014in effect, showing the significance of the view of the House as to a tripling of the penalty as to what was previously in legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESecondly, it is always important, when looking at what a penalty would be, that we line it up with similar sorts of effects elsewhere where somebody may be committing a crime so that there is some degree of uniformity and penalty across the statute book.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00220e2653cda6c643e2be7a140eb70ee628\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e2653cda6c643e2be7a140eb70ee628\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I was around, but I can\u2019t recall all the details of the Animal Welfare Act 1999. It was a piece of legislation heralded through by Pete Hodgson, actually, who was a vet. It was very progressive, but there are amendments here, of course, that are being proposed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EOne amendment is to section 43, \u201CConsideration of application\u201D. I\u2019m guessing that\u2019s an application for an export licence. It says here\u2014the proposal is\u2014\u201Cany history of breaches by the applicant of conditions on an animal welfare export certificate:\u201D. It\u2019s a very useful time to ask questions of the Minister as to what he\u2019s doing with the live export situation. I\u2019m guessing that the changes here relate to their possible reintroduction\u2014that our previous Government banned\u2014and I\u2019m assuming that this may relate to new legislation he has in the pipeline. If so, when are we likely to see that? There are different exports of live animals: there are some chicks, there are some goats\u2014most of those are flown. We have banned cattle going on ships. Does this relate to the so-called reintroduction of live exports of cattle on ships that the Government has talked of? We haven\u2019t heard too much about it\u2014and I think it\u2019s absolutely stupid\u2014but the Government may be wishing to proceed in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EDoes this provision here mean that those exporters, where there have been breaches of standards and there has been a process, and the Minister can maybe clarify, of reporting back from live exports leading up to the ban\u2014there were reports that were supposed to come in. I think the Ministry for Primary Industries probably weren\u2019t as good as they should have been at getting those reports. But where there were identified breaches in any way, or bringing the animals to consolidation prior to export, does this change here mean that those are the very people who may be eliminated from receiving a live export certificate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022b05beb2a2d5c49e8bcfe9df4cf06707c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b05beb2a2d5c49e8bcfe9df4cf06707c\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E No. I mean, the member is trying to make a link between two parliamentary terms. This proposed amendment, in clause 64, to section 43 was in the proposed legislation during the first reading when he was Minister, so it, actually, has come across that period of time and it remains there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIndeed, section 43 lists the matters that the Director-General of the Ministry for Primary Industries must have regard to when considering an application for an animal welfare export certificate. The policy intent is that any breach of conditions put on the previous certificate is considered as part of the assessment of a new application. When the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, as Minister of Agriculture, brought this legislation to the House in the last term of Parliament, this clause was there. It merely says that if there has been a breach, that is considered when somebody puts in an application for a new certificate. I would just point out that I take issue with one thing. He said the previous Government banned live animal exports. They didn\u2019t. Live animal exports still take place under the legislation they put in place. They narrowed or restricted a certain part of exports when it comes to ships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3c46a0b0cbb409d93e600860b11990a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3c46a0b0cbb409d93e600860b11990a\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to speak to clause 65 under Part 4, \u201CSection 81 amended (Effect of this Part)\u201D. It\u2019s to do with research, testing, or teaching in use of animals, and relates to the welfare impacts of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThere is a challenging history in terms of how vivisection has been used, and perhaps many of us know the worst examples of it, where cosmetics are rubbed into rabbits\u2019 eyes and, over a course of time, people see whether shampoo is harming the rabbits day on day on day. It\u2019s pretty grizzly, and fundamentally cruel for the animals. This is to do with how animals are treated in terms of application of testing and research. What I wanted to clarify from the Minister is how this change affects the overall approach that we take in\u201CThe limitation imposed by subsection (1) on the application of Parts 1 and 2 and regulations made under this Act does not apply\u2014(a) in any case where any animal is used in research, testing, or teaching other than in accordance with this Part or other than in accordance with the conditions of any project approval; or (b) if regulations prohibit an activity or a procedure from being undertaken in the course of research, testing, or teaching.\u201D I wonder if the Minister can explain the impact of this change on the current framework and the parameters around that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u002222197faed65e48ecaf95ac018d63fa1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222197faed65e48ecaf95ac018d63fa1d\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Both in legislation and regulation, I think it\u2019s fair to say there is some confusion. It may not be broad or wide, but it is not as clear as it needs to be about what is permissible and what is not within New Zealand regulation when it comes to teaching, testing, or research on live animals. This merely clarifies that. It sets out very clearly what is permissible but, equally, what practices are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI would note for the member that any research, teaching, or testing activity requires approval of an animal ethics committee before it can take place. That doesn\u2019t alter it. The amendment merely clarifies so that there is no confusion under legislation or regulation what is already the view of Parliament as to what\u2019s permissible and what is prohibited under law, but the role of an ethics committee as to deciding what should take place remains.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002208743ef40b0f4c6c87dc990602fbb601\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208743ef40b0f4c6c87dc990602fbb601\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Just on this point, I was looking at the principal Act as well, and it is just really (b) that has changed in a reference to regulations in subsection (2), which I think the Minister just referred to. Most of the clauses are already in the principal Act. The change here relates to regulations. Are there other changes, or is the Minister considering that there will be new regulations or that this just refers to the existing regulations, if there are any, and that this is just the clarification around the regulations applying?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad8a4fc87e054194a7249fa0df8f3731\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad8a4fc87e054194a7249fa0df8f3731\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E This area of law regulation is not something I have responsibility for. I\u2019ve delegated it. However, no, we don\u2019t expect there will be new regulations. It merely is in respect of existing legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022679a5d0114f74a8f8d9d18daa3f80fd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022679a5d0114f74a8f8d9d18daa3f80fd7\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I go to clause 64A(3), \u201CSection 71 amended (Public notification)\u201D. It relates to actually one of the most important parts of our animal welfare system, and that is the independence of NAWAC\u2014the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee. It develops codes and it\u2019s still working through these codes, and they are quite complex. They, I think, are respected for their independence, and I think any Minister would be somewhat foolish to step away from that independence and trying to have more input into that. There has been, at times, a frustration around the process. This amendment here will limit the submission period to 30 days, as I read it: \u201Cwhich must be a date no earlier than 30 working days after the date on which public notice is given\u201D. Now, if the Minister of Agriculture could clarify that date around the submission process and ensure that\u2014I guess it might be an attempt to kind of speed up the process, but, actually, these are really, really complex issues. So I seek clarification of the notification submission period for NAWAC and its draft codes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00221a18a25c057044f4afb9b4a5665e7e22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a18a25c057044f4afb9b4a5665e7e22\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. No. Already existing is, in legislation, no less than 30 days. What this clause does is changes notifications. At the moment, it says notification through publication in a newspaper, no less than 30 days after that; this is merely saying \u201Cpublic notification\u201D. So it doesn\u2019t have to be a newspaper. It can be in a range of ways to inform the public. The period of time, which is a minimum period of consultation, of 30 days has not been altered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EPart 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002294fbc26c064240e289ae62bcdbe27dcc\u0022\u003EPart 5  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000400\u0022\u003EAmendments to Biosecurity Act 1993 and regulations made under that Act\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b999783b137e44eb874696f302f23089\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b999783b137e44eb874696f302f23089\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on Part 5, which is on clauses 80 to 123, \u201CAmendments to Biosecurity Act 1993 and regulations\u201D, and Schedule 3 and Part\u00A03 of Schedule 4. The question is that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00220f06e03571154167a7ce782d82adbeb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f06e03571154167a7ce782d82adbeb2\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E KPMG NZ put out an agribusiness agenda every year\u2014and have done for getting close to 10 years, it must be. I think for pretty much the vast majority\u2014if not every one\u2014of those years, biosecurity has been acknowledged as the number one concern for agribusiness leaders across our country. So we tread cautiously in this area of biosecurity\u2014both legislation and regulations. I know that there were some, again, amendments that were brought to the Primary Production Committee by the Minister of Agriculture at the last minute. I\u2019m trying to work my way through what they were here. Indeed, it\u2019s probably less significant. I think the select committee\u2019s probably looked at them thoroughly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EJust a question to the Minister as to whether he considered that this change here, this opportunity that we have, indeed is making the adjustments that we need to continue to upgrade our biosecurity systems to meet the ever-increasing threats to our borders. People say, \u201CWell, why is that?\u201D Well, we do have more imports and more exports, so there are more products coming into our country, but indeed, climate change is shifting the risk profiles. Our ability to inspect, our ability to seize\u2014as are some of the provisions in this legislation here\u2014the ability for people to intervene, and the right people, is critical. Firstly, a basic question to the Minister: does he consider he\u2019s had the best advice and that we\u2019re making all the changes given the opportunity in front of us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022e612cd6c58d846598c1cea6c9902c368\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e612cd6c58d846598c1cea6c9902c368\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do believe I have the best advice. Indeed, I think the Ministry for Primary Industries is an exceptional agency that always gives us the very best of advice. But what I would say is the changes here are modest or moderate. They don\u2019t alter the Biosecurity Act significantly. They give more certainty to us in as far as the meaning of law in some cases. For instance, one example is a clause in the Biosecurity Act clarifying the changes to time limits for compensation so that we can see very clearly what needs to happen in the case of there being an adverse effect or around a ship notice of a craft\u2019s intention to arrive in New Zealand. You should really see it as an updating of provisions that actually make it easier for both those that engage with biosecurity from the outside\u2014import or export\u2014or, equally, biosecurity themselves to be able to do their job properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI think, though, the point that Damien O\u2019Connor was moving towards is the importance of the security of our border and biosecurity. Ultimately, that comes at a cost both of time and of resource. There are occasions where New Zealand businesses in the primary sector are extremely frustrated by the laws and the rules we have in place around biosecurity. But it is very important, because New Zealand is a country that produces, and the primary sector is of such importance to our economy that we have to ensure that we have very modern systems and up-to-date systems to deal with the potential of an incursion. I think, across Government, our biosecurity officers have done an exceptional job. There are occasions when things happen, and they deal with them very, very quickly. We have largely been exempt from the problems of imported harm, not by luck but because of how professional they are and how closely we work with the primary sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EBut, no, to give him the assurance, the changes here are not to weaken or necessarily to strengthen. They are just to modernise and make it easier for us to do our job and give certainty on the side of those who, from the private sector, engage with biosecurity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00225896e2e2f6b14e239d08f24913cc1364\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225896e2e2f6b14e239d08f24913cc1364\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would just like to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to clause 105, \u201CSection 130 amended (Declaration of restricted place)\u201D. Subclause (3A) states, \u201CThe notice must be given by serving a copy on the occupier of each place included in the area of the restricted place or by delivering a copy of the notice to the occupier in accordance with section 164A(1) (which includes delivery by \u2026 email to the person [or] fax).\u201D I would like to know what happens if there are some emails sent, fax, or post, but the occupier denies ever having received this notice? What is in place to follow up to ensure actions are taken, to make sure that the occupier of each place receives a copy of the notice? Is there a declaration or something that they need to sign or fill out to say that, yes, they have received it, and they adhere to whatever is in place in that notice? That would just be good to know, because, you know, some people get a bit afraid of what notices and things might mean for them, so they may try to avoid them, I guess. I\u2019d be interested to know what the Minister has to say about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022b459c72fbbce412fbfa0251c71b078f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b459c72fbbce412fbfa0251c71b078f1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I go through to, again, on the basis of the importance\u2014there are many questions here, and, generally, as uneasy as it is for me, going through this piece of legislation, I actually have to agree with the vast majority of it. It is very, very good, and I can see why some of these adjustments have been made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBut there is one here around \u201CNotice of craft\u2019s intended arrival in New Zealand\u201D, and it kind of improves, I guess, the requirement for\u2014and it will be a lot of yacht owners. It probably won\u2019t be the big cargo and container vessels, I\u2019m guessing, but people who are coming to this country in yachts\u2014and there may be more of them, as we see disruption around the rest of the world, wanting to come down here. There are requirements there that a change of port\u2014you know, they say they\u2019re coming into Whang\u0101rei, and then they have to go down to Gisborne or something. But what I can\u2019t read in there: there are obligations clearly to notify the director-general\u2014it doesn\u2019t necessarily say how. Is that able to be done electronically, or are there other systems? Because if any Kiwi tries to ring a Government agency, you get an 0800 number, and if you\u2019re out on a yacht and you\u2019ve got limited communication\u2014given that this is a bill dealing with technical issues, the question of the Minister is: how do people on yachts notify the director-general of a change of port when they come in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EPeople might think it\u2019s a kind of frivolous thing. Actually, the potential risk with these yachts is huge to our biological agricultural systems. It is important we get it right, and when we\u2019ve placed these obligations on the master of the craft, making sure it is possible to ensure biosecurity officers are in the right location to meet that vessel is absolutely critical. I still find it somewhat astounding that we can have vessels come in and park up and wait for a day or two until a biosecurity officer might clear them, given the risks they might be in the sails, in the cargo that might be on deck, or whatever. So perhaps the Minister can answer\u2014you know, just the process. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2ddb4b9ed974ee2ab4dccd526407fd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2ddb4b9ed974ee2ab4dccd526407fd6\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll deal with Damien O\u2019Connor first and then with Jo Luxton. Indeed, the director-general will be able to decide themselves how best that should take place\u2014the notification. So we leave that to the director-general to make sure that this is practical, rather than having it in legislation. In this case, though, it only applies where a ship or a vessel\u2014a yacht, as an example\u2014has already entered New Zealand\u2019s territory but it is impractical or impossible to then go to the port that they have notified. Therefore, the director-general will be able to set out how, under that limited circumstance, they should inform him\u2014although it\u2019s the agency rather than the director-general sitting there waiting for the notification\u2014so that we can ensure that, one, there is not undue risk to perhaps a yacht coming to New Zealand, but there is not undue risk or greater risk to biosecurity in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIn as far as Jo Luxton\u2019s questions around clause 105, amended section 130\u2014again, this is a clarification in law. It merely says that every practical step should be taken to inform somebody. It can be in person, it can be by facsimile again, it can be by email, but in the case that that has not worked, it is also reasonable that where a letter is sent and that the authorities deem the letter has been delivered or has the likelihood of being delivered, they can then take action. The reason for this would be if there is concern about biosecurity and we are not sure that we have been able to provide the advice notice to the person we need to because we want to put a restriction in place, then what action should be taken. It is in the case that one example is the letter has been sent and it is reasonable to believe that that has been delivered\u2014whether it is opened or not is secondary, but this would be only used in the case where other, more traditional means to ensure somebody\u2019s notified have not proven to be successful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d766173946ee47cf96ffa59afaeade1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d766173946ee47cf96ffa59afaeade1d\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m interested, and want to note how great it is, that we are all in agreement about how important biosecurity is. But just noting at clause 119 there\u2019s a new section 166B inserted, which is \u201CMaking instruments that make minor amendments or correct minor or technical errors\u201D. I was hoping the Minister for Agriculture could comment on the need for this new section, if it does seem to be an insertion, if it\u2019s a change from\u2014if there\u2019s a need for new instruments or if it is a rewording.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, also, when I first glanced at it, I was thinking of biosecurity, and the word \u201Cinstrument\u201D\u2014I was imagining something that would be in the water, sampling for some biosecurity risk. So my question is whether or not, in the Biosecurity Act itself or somewhere else, that \u201Cinstrument\u201D is defined so people will know that in fact we are talking about a legislative instrument rather than a scientific instrument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022b353ad9412734fadae337e77ed19fc2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b353ad9412734fadae337e77ed19fc2d\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E No, it\u2019s certainly not a scientific instrument. This should just be viewed as a cost-cutting amendment to allow delegated legislation to be amended without triggering a full statutory process of consultation and decision making if the amendment would be no more than minor or to correct a minor error or technical error. It means that we don\u2019t have to go to full consultation to change something that is very easy to do. But, for anything of significance, of course, this would be applicable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00224aff82b0b09f4af8a4b846c1e299299d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224aff82b0b09f4af8a4b846c1e299299d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry if there\u2019s another question. I have to report progress now. It is time to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eeda4a995cdd45bb95bf29cbcc32573c\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002225b6ab948b0941cb90f30351cc5ef5de\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002202fc7d2550ef43c2bc2147ad20f32df8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202fc7d2550ef43c2bc2147ad20f32df8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Disputes Tribunal Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Regulatory Systems (Primary Industries) Amendment Bill and reports that it has made progress on the bill. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc9953fc04d041a48c1cad6a74ebbc49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc9953fc04d041a48c1cad6a74ebbc49\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2025072327865a546cc342fc976bc7ed83008894000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.58 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"