"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c21a041ab740429ab88e71d21b0b494b\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 29 JULY 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002204d80a9def2a422cb9a7693085c62664\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 29 JULY 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227707139554ff43288351413a72307f0e\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223179cd4aa5274f9fa0d5e3f8fda74af9\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd30f97c3dd946118668415ce50b1510\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd30f97c3dd946118668415ce50b1510\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (Deputy Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e50d4bceb87940fe912cf00651984caf\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002206bddf0f3fbd41c6958427edcf670392\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9f4b2039cc84d5cb73069b3f6d437e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9f4b2039cc84d5cb73069b3f6d437e3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A petition has been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022337a48aa16bf4014a5f1e5050981dc93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022337a48aa16bf4014a5f1e5050981dc93\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Simon Kemp requesting that the House urge the Government to enter into negotiations with journal publishers to broaden access to academic journals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002227a1a1811bab4f029a90558d2d501d52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227a1a1811bab4f029a90558d2d501d52\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered five papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00227e4ab635041b41fe956dbf5fabeb68dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e4ab635041b41fe956dbf5fabeb68dc\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment response to the petition of Greenpeace\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Attorney-General under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 on the Electoral Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EClimate Change Commission Monitoring report: Emissions reduction (2025)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2025-26 statements of performance expectations for:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECallaghan Innovation and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Transport Agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d64330fb8a9140ea8296bffa938b091d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d64330fb8a9140ea8296bffa938b091d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Nineteen select committee reports have been presented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab47d117ddd74eeea6eb073676d3a303\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab47d117ddd74eeea6eb073676d3a303\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReports of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Appropriations within Vote Business, Science and Innovation related to New Zealand Trade and Enterprise\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Customs, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Defence and Vote Defence Force\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Health Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Health and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Appropriations within Vote Business, Science and Innovation related to the Health Research Fund\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Justice Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Attorney-General\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Corrections\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Courts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Parliamentary Counsel\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Serious Fraud\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Duran Nair\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Nick Ruane, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Speak Up for Women\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Primary Production Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Forestry and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 Estimates for Vote Lands\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Social Services and Community Committee on the 2025-26 Estimates for Vote Women, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee on the 2025-26 Estimates for Appropriations within Vote Finance related to the infrastructure sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f08f18dae83d4eefadfa234967fdd31c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f08f18dae83d4eefadfa234967fdd31c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of three bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002244678250be8647909857d8b98ab7f300\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244678250be8647909857d8b98ab7f300\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EAntisocial Road Use Legislation Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPublic Service Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EEducation and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba4815ed4df24e628cdc222701718d48\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f27dcb10bea4f42acfd37b2da5e7974\u0022\u003EElectoral Act\u2014Announced Changes\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222fd4aa53b0d3463eb15d0fa041820f5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fd4aa53b0d3463eb15d0fa041820f5b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from the Hon Dr Duncan Webb seeking to debate under Standing Order 399 the Government\u2019s announcement of changes to the Electoral Act. This is a particular case of recent occurrence for which there is ministerial responsibility. In determining whether a matter requires the immediate attention of the House, one consideration is whether the matter must come before the House reasonably soon in the form of legislation\u2014see Speakers\u2019 ruling 223/5. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe Electoral Amendment Bill is set down as the first Government order of the day for today. It will be debated for reference to a select committee. The Clerk will allocate the associated New Zealand Bill of Rights Act report to a select committee. On that basis, I do not think further time needs be set aside to consider the matter today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221daef454dc5b45c2b184eb984697d0e9\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e9fd117c31847939024798bec6a89eb\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220637089c5a36484c9e4e4c1f3d2c3164\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad46fe97bc704ff39e89f7d705f381b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad46fe97bc704ff39e89f7d705f381b6\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: When were personal income tax thresholds last adjusted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8667df008de4c88a5287797865356e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8667df008de4c88a5287797865356e1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Personal income tax thresholds were adjusted almost exactly a year ago, on 31 July 2024, and, as members may recall\u2014because many of them opposed this tax relief for New Zealanders\u2014the Government increased the lowest income tax threshold from $14,000 of annual income to $15,600, the next threshold from $48,000 to $53,000, and the next from $70,000 to $78,100. At the same time, the Government expanded eligibility for the independent earner tax credit, and we increased the in-work tax credit paid to low to middle income families with children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fae4a9ae5fec4da0b6f9c60839c8e547\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: By how much have New Zealand households benefited from these tax changes over the past year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259527fa8ac174dba942f9213c665f38b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course, that depends on their own individual circumstances and those of their family and household. I will give you some averages to illustrate it. Inland Revenue expects that around 1.9 million households will have benefited by $60 a fortnight, on average. That\u2019s $60 a fortnight that would have been denied to them by the members who opposed that tax relief. Inland Revenue also expects that households with children will have benefited by $78 a fortnight, on average\u2014relief that would have been denied to them by those who opposed tax relief\u2014and Inland Revenue points out that in some circumstances, households will have benefited by more than $100 a fortnight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022662816bbc2be4b04a6590a52fc8120dd\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: What other assistance have households received from the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022558b8b903fdd4fa38f67463e3b0fba31\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: More than 65,000 households, and rising, have received additional help with early childhood education costs from FamilyBoost. Members may recall\u2014because many of them still oppose it\u2014that FamilyBoost has so far given households a rebate of 25 percent of their early childhood fees and that from this month it is rising to 40 percent of their early childhood fees. I could point to many more things, but one policy I would particularly highlight is the move to 12month prescriptions, which will be coming early next year. For families who get stable long-term medications like asthma inhalers, insulin for diabetes, ADHD medication, and blood pressure tablets, this move will save them unnecessary medical costs and give health professionals more time to deal with other patients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d7db2266fae45229d4cc81bd2c119bb\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: What does this mean for the cost of living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022674a6fe2e516410db163ca987ee20249\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The cost of living is the relationship between two things: how much people get in their pay packet\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea1186f45ac7410382d65c1a15e63d36\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014just a minute. That\u2019s ridiculous. One or two comments by way of interjection\u2014as has always been the case\u2014is acceptable, but not that barrage. The Minister will start again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022487cf7b3162d4dae98cebf8dd6d3dde5\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The cost of living is the relationship between two things: how much people get in their pay packet and the prices they pay. We\u2019ve seen in recent history that when prices rise very rapidly to a peak of 7.3 percent, as in 2022\u2014the highest inflation since 1990\u2014wages can\u2019t keep up, and hence there was a cost of living crisis. The Government is focused on both sides of the equation: on costs and on incomes. We are taking deliberate measures to address structural issues like competition that can lead to prices being higher than otherwise. Opposed by many members of this House, we gave tax relief that benefited working families. We are driving sustainable increases in incomes through measures that will grow the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e325112c8ab24b3186636adbfd46c7b4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002272e0bf4be50c460684e6441ca50393e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272e0bf4be50c460684e6441ca50393e0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022491e021ea0a74a6c85483db67cabc147\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022491e021ea0a74a6c85483db67cabc147\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially our move to ban surcharge fees on in-store debit and credit payments so that Kiwis don\u2019t have to pay to use their own money, and, of course, this follows a recent announcement by the Commerce Commission to reduce the bank fees that retailers pay to accept card payments, saving retailers $90 million a year. We want to make sure those savings are fully passed on to Kiwis, so we are banning fees at the checkout. That means no more nasty surprises or hidden fees, and Kiwis will know what the price is and can shop with confidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279d4edbfb11e420f9b1a9716b353ba59\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why does his Government think that in a cost of living crisis, hiking up the fees of board directors by up to 80 percent is more important than pay rises for teachers and nurses, who are being offered a paltry 1 percent pay increase\u2014less than the rate of inflation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0f28c6008f9441b85af7418d417b736\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as that member will well understand, having been a Minister for the public sector, we want to make sure that our Crown entities which are delivering some our most critical public services are incredibly well governed and well managed and well led. We\u2019ve been advised that we need more competitive payment for those directors, which, essentially, hasn\u2019t moved in the course of over a decade, although I know that the member would have dealt with it himself when he passed on pay increases to directors back in 2022, I think, as well. What we\u2019re doing is making sure that, actually, we\u2019ve got competitiveness. It\u2019s never going to be as competitive as public sector pay, but it\u2019s important, given that we\u2019ve got large expenditure going on, that it\u2019s well governed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e145b0b41e944ccebaa579000d00e4a1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: So why should teachers and nurses have to settle for pay increases below the rate of inflation\u2014in other words, a real-terms pay cut\u2014while he\u2019s increasing the pay of directors by up to 80 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a8bfbce21c41ef86720b8882f095d0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in answer to the first leg of the question, I\u2019d just say that on nurses, there has been a big effort around nurse remuneration over a number of years. We are in a place where we have average nurse salary and incomes at $125,000, which is equal to New South Wales, which is 35 percent wealthier than New Zealand, and we\u2019ve also been hiring more nurses. We\u2019ve got 2,100 more nurses in our system, there\u2019s a lot less attrition, and they\u2019re increasingly well remunerated. The only people who lose out on strike actions are those people who want elective surgeries, and we want to be able to get them to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8e9afce069948988d7b09551290b231\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: So, in addition to denying the fact that the cost of living crisis continues for New Zealand families, is he now asserting that the problem is that nurses are just too well-paid because of the pay increases they got under a Labour Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260ebf3add6d34ebea3b6f921954f96d8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the characterisation in that question. All I was explaining to the member, who would well understand, is that it\u2019s important that we will never be able to offer private sector pay to public sector directors. But we\u2019re making sure it\u2019s more competitive so that we get good governance, so that the money that we\u2019re spending is well spent and gives good value for money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3f1cb549040452ea23e1192072aa428\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance. In the past, Speakers have ruled that you cannot begin a question with a word like \u201CSo\u201D, make a statement as an assertion, and then lead on to a question. Usually, a question must begin with a question word in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feb5042860bd47939271533588c333c8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, and in this case, it was \u201CSo does he deny\u201D, and so I overlooked the \u201CSo\u201D in this case. I\u2019m sure that the Leader of the Opposition knows the rules pretty well, in and out. I recall occasions when the Minister himself has asked questions that have had one word preceding a question word, and that\u2019s not unreasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c24f642f7b3e4a18af152c8e28e7558f\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but I got away with it! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cdd40b0d7eb4daba975e894a615a689\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah? Well, guess what\u2019s happening here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d04a8bcc96b43e1b6a74a40e9aaa5a7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why, during a cost of living crisis, has his Government prioritised $300\u00A0million in tax breaks for a multinational tobacco company while everyday New Zealanders are left paying up to $100 per visit just to see their local GP, if they can find one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c385b01d8e04e91916294e6f5adce64\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I reject the characterisation of that question, and the member has come back to this point at all times. What we are doing is making sure that people who are addicted to smoking can actually, through heated tobacco products, have an opportunity to come off smoking. We didn\u2019t have those products in the market; they are now in the market. We\u2019re extending that pilot\u2014that trial. The member knows that it\u2019s not a tax. The member knows that it\u2019s a contingency due to lost excise and revenue that would be coming, because if we are successful at moving people off smoking into other products, it reduces harm. That\u2019s a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229509fd6d061744708f1ad3b925e8e220\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CWe have to fix and rebuild this economy so we can actually reduce the cost of living for people\u201D; if so, why has the economy flatlined and why have costs continued to explode under his leadership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e63e52f6c7fe46fdae6f95667c5e6982\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I welcome the member\u2019s new-found interest in the economy and the cost of living, because it\u2019s not that long ago that he was in Government and he actually created this mess that we\u2019re now cleaning up. But I\u2019d just say to that member, let\u2019s just go through a few things, because if you\u2019re really serious about reducing the cost of living, will you support a rates cap on councils\u2014yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f856995b345e4050a94a949020e5f735\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014sorry. The Prime Minister can answer a question, but he can\u2019t ask questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4ff09c68f774e0198763c1e5616e809\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a rhetorical one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c8e6854374947b9aff3a9dc41758128\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, rhetorical or not, it\u2019s a question. [Interruption] Do you want to continue the answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207f21612f1b34b4fb15abf7b18a5ed3f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, it was just a rhetorical answer\u2014is what I\u2019m asking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dafb4826a5e4137bdc378dc26585943\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: When essential costs like groceries, fees, Government levies, and doctors visits continue to rise, why does he respond to public frustration not with solutions but by making it harder for people who do remain in New Zealand to vote him out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022348695cf73a54495a65f6e5210299c98\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just say to the member that this a Government that is working incredibly hard. We have made sure that we offer people tax relief\u2014low and middle income working New Zealanders who have suffered because of the conditions that his former Government created. This is a Government that\u2019s expanding FamilyBoost to make sure that low and middle income working New Zealanders can get access and subsidisation for their early childcare costs. This is a Government that has created rent stability. This is a Government that has taken people off social housing wait-lists. This is a Government that is doing everything it can to lower the cost of living for people through good economic management\u2014something that he and his party just don\u2019t understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227c358265d4e64c50b83098609e7ad210\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u00225617014e21bf4237a103765649282600\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225617014e21bf4237a103765649282600\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs: What recent announcements has the Government made regarding reduced fees at the checkout?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec64599e174a4d63ba23df02289d9e16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec64599e174a4d63ba23df02289d9e16\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Good news: the Government is banning surcharges. This ban will apply to in-store payments for debit, credit, and EFTPOS cards, putting money back in Kiwis\u2019 pockets. Whether a customer is tapping, swiping, or paying with their phone, they\u2019ll soon pay the advertised price and no more. It\u2019s a win for consumers and a step towards a fairer, simpler payment system. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294b8eef1c16948b8bd9b8d5075307c97\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait for a moment, please. All right, carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248613c2983804fd58312159c67b4b5ba\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it important that Kiwis know exactly what they are paying before they tap or swipe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276bdb96361c7400a877f074187bdaa14\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: No one likes getting stung with a surprise fee at the checkout, and I believe that New Zealanders should be able to pay for things without being penalised just because they choose to pay for a transaction in a certain way. It\u2019s about honesty, clarity, and respect for people\u2019s hard-earned money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c08d6a58a0be44f3b7fd9464fc5cd02f\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What will this change mean for Mr Major from Thames?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce3aa87330654f9db839d5c38d3b0918\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: By May 2026 at the latest, this change will do away with those coffee-stained, crumpled-up stickers on payment terminals, and for Mr Major from Thames, he will be able to buy his coffee and scone and know that the price that he sees on the cabinet will be the price he pays at the till. This change is about bringing transparency back to pricing and ensuring Kiwis get the best bang for their buck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295f9a797b74c451f96c28c4a935cd124\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has the Minister received on this change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fd2a86fc424423a9f14cbed1f7a6bb5\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have received overwhelmingly positive feedback from consumers on this change. Consumer New Zealand has said that \u201Cscrapping surcharges will put millions back into the pockets of New Zealanders and make accepting payments much simpler for merchants.\u201D Business New Zealand has said that consumers should be encouraged to use modern modes of payment without having to second-guess a purchase or having to do the \u201Cinsert card\u201D dance at the till. Consumers are tired of these sneaky charges, and under this Government these surcharges are gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002254c3f46629184766ba3721b18c7f8881\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00228007ffffbaa6482aaa88a502bc80a850\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228007ffffbaa6482aaa88a502bc80a850\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Tank yu tumas, Mr Speaker. Does she stand by all her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002252ae53136e3649eba88ef95c8dbd749f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252ae53136e3649eba88ef95c8dbd749f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In context, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a216188d5fc46a3b1e703dabb0ff581\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Who is right: the New Zealand Food Network, who said, \u201CWe genuinely believed that there was going to be a drop off once everything got back to normal, but then this thing called the cost of living crisis kicked in \u2026 so it\u2019s not going down\u201D, or Nicola Willis, who says that the country is \u201Cback on course\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226b94a7dbf0840c78c6df754f36a3648\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: To address this question, I want to remind members of this House of some cold, hard numbers. I\u2019ll start with December 2022, when food price inflation was 10.7 percent. I\u2019ll then take you to March 2023, when it was 11.3 percent, and June 2023, when it was 12.3 percent. I then take you to June 2025, where it is 4.2 percent. Food price inflation is far lower than it was under the last Government, and I would say that that is progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254b2f3500af44f5883d6bececf473951\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Are things really getting back on course when the Compassion Soup Kitchen supplied 1,300 more meals than the previous month, and have said, \u201CThe increases right now are just unprecedented\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bded3542e8b4ebd91060a33faec9c28\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I want to acknowledge the Compassion Soup Kitchen and the many non-governmental organisations who support New Zealanders in need, many of whom are vulnerable, and what I would highlight for the House is the statements I\u2019ve made previously, which is that when unemployment is high\u2014as it currently is\u2014that has a significant impact on households. I note that unemployment is tracking almost exactly to the forecasts members opposite presented prior to the election; in fact, when we look at the granular detail, unemployment is slightly lower than the previous Government was forecasting. So while unemployment at these levels is regrettable and is undoubtedly having an impact on New Zealand families, we are, as a Government, able to say that this is absolutely the result of the economic crisis left to us by the last Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229470ef7190c34d88afc671b459e51498\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Is the country back on course when Kaibosh Food Rescue have said that four years ago, 20 people showing up at the Lower Hutt food bank was a busy day, and now it sees between 120 to 135 people each day? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a985097cfde340b6a047bf1b2aee2c91\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, members of this Government get up every day to think about how we can improve this economy so that it delivers for New Zealanders, including those in need making use of food, rescue services, and other support services. Now, what we can look to is the data to track that progress, and what we can see is that after a couple of years of real GDP per capita going backwards under the last Government, inflation remaining out of control for three years, and interest rates being cranked through the roof, we are now in a situation where we have had two successive quarters of real GDP growth where inflation has got back into target and where interest rates have reduced significantly. Now, those are the foundations. There is a lot more work to do, but it\u2019s a lot of progress since the last lot trashed the joint. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a582123a91e841bf848d62e15b25ff89\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, just calm down on those ending comments after some statistics are presented to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa474d0ac4734ea98658c4e25e5300a4\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say about her priorities when she finds funding for tobacco companies and board directors but not for community providers, who are dealing with significant increases in demand from families because of her Government\u2019s decisions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1e0f55280194fdf9b9f298b9df65b20\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d reject just about every characterisation in that question, in particular acknowledging that, as the Minister for Social Investment has outlined, we are working to develop a much better contracting approach with community organisations. However, on the question of tobacco excise, I would simply point out to the member that our goal is to move more people away from smoking, and the numbers which she refers to actually would result from people not paying tobacco excise any more because they have stopped smoking. So if the member\u2019s position is that she wants us to collect more tobacco excise because more people should be smoking, I\u2019d put to it her that that\u2019s a very irresponsible position, and I\u2019d prefer to have the reduction in excise that occurs when fewer people are smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aee007e17624a98b159263755370a0e\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister of Finance confirm that the inflation peak in 2022 was the highest since 1990, and do those two years have anything in common?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec0dd7d64f304ebc86bc151690b1ca54\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, students of history will know that Labour Governments have had a history of driving up inflation, putting holes in the books, and destroying the economy. But I would like to just share facts, Mr Speaker\u2014referring to your earlier guidance. It wasn\u2019t just the 7.3 percent peak, I say to the Deputy Prime Minister, but it was also the 7.2 percent in September 2022, the 7.2\u00A0percent in December 2022, the 6.7 percent in March 2023, the 6 percent in June 2023, the 5.6\u00A0percent\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224918725c66a848a7be0abb645e680b71\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, good\u2014that\u2019s enough, and can I just say to the Opposition that if you want me to do something about something, don\u2019t sit there trying to tell me what the rules are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221144bcb34e864e4fa9d1d433901e5155\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u00224390703beb404fc0b32a2d04188929f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224390703beb404fc0b32a2d04188929f2\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022613bb8676e7d4f209d03db97b5a74929\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022613bb8676e7d4f209d03db97b5a74929\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2d63255aa8b4f72b502564b7f8465c6\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Will his changes to voter enrolments lead to more or fewer people voting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226861754da72a43ca8cc889eb5d608e63\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I hope more people participate in our democracy. It\u2019s a great thing. It\u2019s a gift that should be really treasured incredibly well, and we hope that more people continue to participate in voting in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217e33cebf73e4f058e70000bdccb4493\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he want to make it easier for more people to vote, and, if so, why is he proposing a change that may see an estimated 22,700 people have their eligibility to vote directly affected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d126307759747fa9d4b4038df402618\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: There is plenty of time before the next election for people to get enrolled. All we\u2019re doing is making sure that it\u2019s two weeks before election day and before advance voting begins. That\u2019s a good thing. If Australians can do it 26 days earlier, I\u2019m sure Kiwis can do it in 12 or 13 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222582a7c82814afa8784b892b5eac34d\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Should renters, young people, M\u0101ori, Asian, and Pasifika communities be afforded less access to democracy just because they are more likely to need to cast a special vote?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237d153e9331f4d4187fe62ac8b7c71ab\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I think all New Zealanders are quite capable of getting registered two weeks out from an election, and I think it would be insulting to suggest otherwise. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afb3ef0570554cc89c6d82b7835e152e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, don\u2019t\u2014just hold on. This ridiculous level from both sides of the House is very unhelpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f96ab8e5f6c8453a80ed75deb4b08ac6\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Who does he see as worthy of a say in our democracy, if not renters, young people, M\u0101ori, Asian, and Pasifika communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bccad39375474cbfbdd1d9f0b20afa67\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We want all New Zealanders to have a say in our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc1ac5d5d1b24688aad7b643de0b815d\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that the fundamental right to vote sits at the heart of our democratic system, or does he believe it should be reserved as a privilege for those with the time and resources to engage in politics?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224d2af0c871f45fd8906b92bc3fbbc7c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, yes. We want all New Zealanders to participate in the voting process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223df856d5a64d4a6ca05e6d814ba238ff\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9ce68a0920346808729b17f470909c0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why are you so scared of voters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc43bf7891214eb08437c2bf5283b8ce\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, can we go on? Question No. 6, the Hon Ayesha Verrall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022371af02e678a4e47b5a600baced156f2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002242c40e36c2af4fa2a16b33f788cfbc51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242c40e36c2af4fa2a16b33f788cfbc51\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by his statement that his focus \u201Cis on putting patients first\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb43eca26aa544a8a5e6bb49b55178b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb43eca26aa544a8a5e6bb49b55178b9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E In the context it was made, yes. We\u2019re putting patients first, to ensure that Kiwis can get the care they need when they need it. Our Government inherited significant wait-lists, which meant that too many patients had been waiting too long for the care they need. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve brought back health targets to focus the system on delivery, made a record investment of $16.68 billion over three Budgets, and continued to strengthen our health workforce. Whilst these efforts are starting to show positive progress, we know there is still much more work to be done. We\u2019re getting on with the job, and we won\u2019t stop until we deliver better health outcomes for all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f6ee51c7efd4d1c926e882c6a6e4999\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: How was he putting patients first when he cut the workforce responsible for protecting patient safety by 30 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c2b9603a9004ac0b2f3008f81a6a6d4\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Health New Zealand report which that member is interested in and which that team was responsible for stopped being published in the 2019-20 financial year, and Health New Zealand has committed to restarting publishing of that report next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237e1be2129ea4d4b92ecf1dc33b44a68\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That supplementary question did not reference a report. It referenced a 30 percent cut to the workforce that is responsible for protecting patient safety, and I don\u2019t believe that that part of the question was addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a324d674ceab47ea80fa60b92fc8b327\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, would the Minister like to make a response to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022429c7775f0f84cb387f9918e1f363cba\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I note that the reporting which that team deliver is going to be restarted next year, after it stopped in 2019-20, and I have made my expectations clear to Health New Zealand that it\u2019s about the outcomes that are important to the delivery for this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d2b7102c566477f97853f6bf3f21009\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. This team has a global responsibility for the quality and safety systems in their hospital. I didn\u2019t ask a question about writing a report, though I am transacting that issue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295f2aec65e44499fa5ea42e37ef6187b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, but you did ask the question about, from my memory, whether he is concerned about the outcomes from this group if their numbers are cut. I think he\u2019s just answered that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228303f9d0e6c549849c26faebed01abeb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Is a 30 percent increase in ACC claims for people who suffer injuries, infections, and pressure sores in hospital a sign of a Government that puts patients first, or a sign of an overcrowded and understaffed health system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bceb5c620b44190b4b7e54fe714c16f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is not an acceptable rise in pressure injuries in our hospitals, and Health New Zealand has a responsibility to ensure that it is addressing those concerns. However, I would say that this Government has invested significantly in Health New Zealand: $16.68 billion over three Budgets. There are 2,100 more nurses working at Health New Zealand today than when we came into Government, 600 more doctors are working at Health New Zealand today than when we came into Government, and our focus is on ensuring that Health New Zealand is delivering on that investment and people and money so that patients get better access to care, following the significant wait-list the last Government left us to fix up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c19332b1194e9c939163170acf1ec2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: How is he putting patients first when he has cut funding to the Health and Disability Commissioner to investigate instances of poor treatment and breaches of the code of patients\u2019 rights?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc6a13af75e84efca3d4b8f0a0e1cd5e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: There was a one-off increase in funding allocated in this year\u2019s Budget to ensure that they could continue to address the wait-list\u2014again, a significant wait-list\u2014and complaints made to the Health and Disability Commissioner. There was a one-off funding increase that the previous Government had put forward, which was time-limited. We have put another $1\u00A0million in\u2014a time-limited amount of money\u2014to continue the work that the Health and Disability Commissioner is doing to get on top of the wait-list, and the advice that I have received from the Health and Disability Commissioner is that they\u2019re making good progress on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8fb57e214af41fe9dfc8dd54a459b7b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that he has cut safety systems, suppressed reporting, ignored the warning signs, and closed off accountability, and that next time when tragedy strikes, he has no one to blame but himself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232b1cac4bf91451a885205bb35ef3840\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, when it comes to the reporting which the member talked about in her question, I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022550f48dca912425fae97584c7c4afa6a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228121bad139c6499eadf2d740686dcde9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: When she talked about the reporting in her question, I would note the report that she is referencing was a report that was discontinued in the 2019-20 financial year. That report is now being reinstated by Health New Zealand next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ab8e235c95846d692d5606262d78c43\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. It does seem like the Minister has really got it in his head that this question was about a particular report. He said \u201Ca report\u201D in his answer. I\u2019ve not raised a report in my question; I\u2019ve raised serious concerns about the patient safety system, and I\u2019ve not had that addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc98ba8d96db473eaa35a7acc6d4ccb8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You used the word \u201Creporting\u201D, and I\u2019d have to say it\u2019s very hard for me, sitting here listening to your questions about the range of activities across the health sector, without expecting that there might be some reporting of that work. So I don\u2019t agree with you that there is a problem with the answer from the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a3f548a64ea415abe31dac349a18e65\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Resources\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022 data-id=\u002229475def9e7a47e38f6aef577eec37db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229475def9e7a47e38f6aef577eec37db\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Resources: What upcoming announcements, if any, is he planning for the resources portfolio? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00221ae97b6eb08f49ba869f8edcb08e5cb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ae97b6eb08f49ba869f8edcb08e5cb7\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E This week is an extraordinary time for heat, gas, and steam. Along with my colleagues Minister Upston and Minister Reti, I\u2019ll be launching the Government\u2019s draft geothermal strategy tomorrow, reflective of my commitment to renewable energy. However, to ensure that we don\u2019t repeat the errors of the past and continue the perfidy of the cancellation of the oil and gas industry by Jacinda Ardern, we will have the oil and gas exploration\u2014ill-fated\u2014piece of legislation changed at the end of this week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bab6e0f310e40fe89c32f8ac76c7024\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: Why is geothermal energy important for the New Zealand economy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ac2649ad22a410db442d39619952d7d\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s important that our economy boosts its productivity through more affordable and secure energy. As we grapple with the legacy of failed energy policy, cancellation of the oil and gas industry, and unicorn-kissing, shallow green ideas, we\u2019re a lot more serious. We\u2019re unlocking the geothermal potential\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b06e549736d84ae981ea7d16a7cfca8c\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you, sir. This is a clear example of the very thing that you have warned this Government about numerous times over various sitting weeks of using a question asked by their own team to express their opinions on previous policies. Now, it is a clear attempt to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022310b47017c4f4a299a733a5a09beeecd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I agree with you, and I think that the Minister should recognise that the attack aspect of his answer is not acceptable. Talking about factual matters is and it has been allowed, but the general tenor of that answer falls in the category of using a Government question to attack the Opposition, which is not acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a424e0b53e4499b9acc25a0c5b6a316\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m very happy that you\u2019ve used the word \u201Cfactual\u201D. It is a fact that the oil and gas industry was chilled, halted, as a consequence of a decision announced by so-said woman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f55505910274ab78e6d97c6514015c0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that might be true in your opinion, but the reality is that there is still gas flowing at the moment, so it can\u2019t have been stopped dead. So I\u2019m sure there will be another supplementary that gives you the opportunity to\u2014[Interruption] Oh, sorry, are you still answering that other supplementary? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef8b1bd8051848a49b26f7ec0a9c2482\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I think that in the interests of democracy, I should give a fuller answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022270606a328e24546a55f2d4941f4fbb8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think that the House has lost track of it, so Jamie Arbuckle might like to repeat it, word for word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223cfa39d750242da8afde2ccba7d2c69\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: Why is geothermal energy important for the New Zealand economy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022765d7ffa4c91474ab1eef0f42b8c6d29\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Our economy requires a diverse range of energy sources. Geothermal is a key feature in ensuring that we have affordable energy, that our productivity is boosted, and that we have rules, laws, and opportunities where it can be further utilised. We have the ability to become world leaders: we have the human capital and the technology, and, with appropriate modesty, I would say we have the political leadership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022978256514c5f44c6b7b55f7a1c128e14\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: What more can he tell us about the draft geothermal strategy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022435b9fd9fa664965936cc2cfbb0a67ff\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Tomorrow, I shall travel to Taup\u014D, the heart of geothermal potential, and unveil the strategy. Consultation will begin, as befits a participatory democracy like the one I\u2019m privileged to belong to. I\u2019m also very keen to identify what barriers, red tape, and third-party interests might be blighting the ability of us to accelerate the availability of geothermal energy for tourism, recreational purposes, manufacturing, and further electricity. This follows the $60 million funding through the Regional Infrastructure Fund, designed to ensure that supercritical deep geothermal energy can play a bigger role in securing a resilient energy future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240904cfdbd1944348dd64362856bfa73\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: What more can he tell us regarding reversing the ban on offshore gas exploration? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225707cb29e00d42d1ac81226af5819bc4\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: A worse decision in the history of capitalism in New Zealand, driven by a very shallow, juvenile, and mistaken approach\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c0a6b3a215243aeaf2b6366149d9da4\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228613495c49ab4f6c9dd9a04ddff47943\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I know what you\u2019re going to say, but for a Minister to say that a previous decision was bad is not out of order. I think you were heading into territory that\u2019s probably unnecessary, but if that was your point, then that\u2019s what I would respond to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221af444834d15431fa3792db9a85f38fa\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: No, certainly not, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022140ed76bca5243af955b802679111dff\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it\u2019s something new? My goodness! That\u2019s unusual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d42273d8d8d44c4b7b7831b64124c38\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Yes, just specifically, the use of \u201Cshallow\u201D and \u201Cjuvenile\u201D surely cannot be an acceptable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212c9ec5360824fe493c4329cee0ead27\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I just said that to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4be584ac1c84198bb2bfc76c7a94586\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014use of language. That\u2019s right. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224f9de90769a4bad9cae6ae8743c4c4e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5161c2e4f574c8abeda7b170d61b9b2\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and with respect, sir, he shouldn\u2019t be allowed to continue along those lines when you\u2019ve already warned him not to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241489365cf054922bae0c1b45f9c6cbf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that\u2019s right, and so I\u2019m sure he won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c439e2b280ca4b45a0038c5974ad3c77\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Right. When this bill passes, it will remove the ban of petroleum exploration beyond onshore Taranaki\u2014something, sadly, that has left Taranaki bereft of economic opportunity. But wait! Ironsands await\u2014they\u2019re on their way. A new tier of mineral permits and a new tier of entitlements will make it easier, and this bill will ensure that when dealing with decommissioning, there\u2019s a balance between protecting the Crown balance sheet and ensuring that investors in this sector continue to prosper. It is also\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f27b0a80eb143bf8c51179df5052be9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good\u2014OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b87c49c9aa3456487f71e421594b48b\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014going to ensure that the thousands of dollars sucked out of the Taranaki economy will over time be restored in inverse\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebee3664b96d4a88b5cd5d8771f11e0c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014that\u2019s it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022208910c1d93f46d389000177af465441\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014proportions to what the M\u0101ori Party actually deliver\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f17b798830047cf97eaa3ceef675872\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014no, sit down. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022710552db930043d1bbc26b20a084a818\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022352ff71bb7ee47598d8e261aab649a48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022352ff71bb7ee47598d8e261aab649a48\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What recent announcements has he made on the recovery of court fines? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c262a34303d547d8b0c33a1a59f376c1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just everyone calm down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002285084ac2a5ed4bd6926f1b97a4b3250f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285084ac2a5ed4bd6926f1b97a4b3250f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Last Friday, I announced that the Government is trialling new technology to identify vehicles registered to those who have overdue court fines and reparations. If they do, the vehicle may be clamped and seized by bailiffs, and the message is simple: pay your court fine and reparations, and if you haven\u2019t\u2014if you\u2019ve left somebody out of pocket\u2014you might soon find yourself walking home. We promised to find new, effective ways to get people paying their court fines, and that\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re delivering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211db18f9b6a74731af15816d9a8f92f8\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the recovery of overdue court fines important? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9b3a3b6df694d2dab496eb6b9443f87\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Because when the courts impose fines or reparations, they need to be paid, or the system loses its credibility, and for reparations victims, the victims are victimised again. As of 30 June this year, there were $456 million in fines and $104 million in reparations outstanding, and that is not something that we\u2019re prepared to tolerate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273c06f308f934cd0b0b3c2fd6e14acb9\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: What insight can he share on the success of the clamping trial over the weekend? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022575411326c404e218776572cb699e729\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, 4,859 vehicles were scanned by bailiffs positioned at breath-testing stations on the weekend. Of those, 208 people were identified as having outstanding fines. The majority of them had a payment plan in place, but there were 32 that didn\u2019t. Of those 32, 31 paid their fines in full\u2014without a surcharge, maybe; well, we\u2019re going to change that\u2014and one didn\u2019t pay, and their vehicle was seized and towed. The Ministry of Justice noticed an 11 percent increase in the number of fine payments made online yesterday. The message can\u2019t be clear enough: there are no more excuses\u2014pay your fines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3238f5c53864263be496b8ab7deb10f\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Will people be left stranded on the streets? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9562fd96c0048bc970fde4971262e2e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No. I\u2019ve seen some misinformed comments by other political parties scaremongering on this issue. Bailiffs will make sure that people who have had their cars seized or clamped have arrangements to get to where they need to go. But if you don\u2019t want to use public transport and you don\u2019t want your cars taken, take responsibility and call 0800 4 FINES to make a payment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af39678c7d314d318647045672ca96e8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Infrastructure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022a67e002a7ac247e09a54130f4a8e46a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a67e002a7ac247e09a54130f4a8e46a2\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Infrastructure: Does he stand by his statement, \u201CThis is a Government serious about investing in New Zealand\u2019s future. Serious about infrastructure\u201D; if so, why have 18,000 jobs been lost in the construction sector since this Government took office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00221d13629fefa44fed9fb55471b46ddee2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d13629fefa44fed9fb55471b46ddee2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister for Infrastructure):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and, in response to the second part of the question, the construction sector has undoubtedly been affected by the economic downturn. In answer to her question as to why the jobs have been lost, I would say that this Government came to office in November 2023 with record inflation, a cost of living crisis, high interest rates, and, ultimately, a recession, and in a recession, as the rest of the economy has discovered and as has the construction sector, unfortunately, jobs are lost. But we are doing what we need to do as a Government to get this economy growing again, and there are green shoots of confidence coming through, through the EBOSS report and others, and I would point the member to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0222178b50e465faf6ca6e487bafdbc\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Why did 1,000 people lose their jobs in the construction sector last month?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e43ab928e4004367949a4ec54b9bc0c7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, ultimately, if you want the literal answer, the employers of those people decided not to employ them any more. This Government is doing what it can do across a range of initiatives in order to support the construction sector. As the member, I think, noticed\u2014I hope she noticed\u2014there is $6 billion of Government-funded construction due to start in the next six months across roading, across health, and across school property, where there\u2019s $800 million alone of school property projects about to start in the next six months. There are significant roading projects about to start\u2014and, of course, that\u2019s just the Government-funded part of the construction sector. As interest rates come down, there will be increased economic confidence around the construction sector, particularly residential construction, and of course we want employers to have the confidence to employ more people as the economic recovery gets under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f9d9f665ae9414997666bd305610688\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: How many of the 47,000 Kiwis who left New Zealand last year were construction workers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa64847a4b854eb7906f5a07cc795c17\u0022\u003ERt Hon Christopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Support fast track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2595f0e37254fb5a48f112a5ad057d5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t have that number to hand, but if the member puts it down in writing, I\u2019m happy to look at it. I would say\u2014as the Prime Minister rightly pointed out as the member was asking that question\u2014the Opposition is good at talk about construction sector losses, but very bad at offering\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ad4af03f7f24971b006433cb630199b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s all right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267b47145bc924839a604a9c86c64a409\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014answers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3ffa3458a5e4485ae791f72451c5ced\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014that\u2019s not their job. Another supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c66ac62a3acf4e7f82e0091ec526b228\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say about this Government\u2019s commitment to infrastructure when the building sector is the least confident sector surveyed by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research Quarterly Survey of Business Opinion for July 2025? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a1d2a46b1de45528e8e5775c06f0d19\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: What it says is that we are in a difficult situation economically caused by the recession induced by the last Government\u2019s profligate spending and useless economic policies. The Government cannot magic up jobs overnight. The Government cannot magic up an economic recovery. What it actually takes is sound fiscal management, reducing red tape, sensible investments in infrastructure\u2014which the Government is doing\u2014across health, across education, across roads, and across rail, and that will generate the economic return to form that this country needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acd048c58fd84c68a6e4197ba209799e\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: How can he claim to be serious about infrastructure when all his Government has done is re-announce infrastructure projects, stop construction work, and slash support for apprenticeships?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270f2f21337d4487f833339e09fe264df\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in relation to the second part of that member\u2019s question, it\u2019s interesting that she can\u2019t name a single project that has been stopped, because stopping Lake Onslow in 2035 does not affect construction jobs today. Stopping\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd65f3a344b34cbe809eec9c3bb0f80f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sorry. The Minister will stop, and the House will go silent for the balance of that answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b8a6d61f48d4382b84bbd662f61eec7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Stopping Auckland light rail, which even on the most heroic assumptions was going to start in 2032 or maybe 2033\u2014it may affect the number of people working as the consultants, who made hundreds of millions of dollars out of Auckland light rail, but it doesn\u2019t actually affect construction jobs today. In relation to the first part of the member\u2019s question, the Government has put more money into the projects that we inherited from the last Government. I\u2019ll give you two examples: one is the Melling Interchange, which did not have enough money appropriated to be delivered properly. This Government drew down a tagged contingency to put it into it\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227735249259f44a698a98f87b746115f7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, is someone down there talking when I\u2019ve said we\u2019ll hear it in silence? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213ce43c5a53041daabfc523d38628feb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I think you might have more chance of getting silence on this side if the Minister was talking about the actions of his Government and not the actions of the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d356d55e73714c3fb73b2c01dc68aa81\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s true, but for a moment there I thought he was being complimentary. Please talk entirely about this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca2ffcd5bf4743e3b85925b26e4567fb\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member asked me a question about projects of the previous Government, and so I think I\u2019m entitled to respond to those projects. The point is some of the projects the member was talking about had had money appropriated in March 2020, for which the money appropriated was half of what was required. I\u2019ll give you an example: \u014Ctaki to North Levin, we were told, was going to cost $817 million in February 2020. I can advise the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254f612264a874527a75cf758575c05f5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250400f27f2f248268f490aad6cfa9f32\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that the cost to deliver that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230310577eb9444afbd6c72f0576d659c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think you\u2019ve made the point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221c167754ad748cfb96b0ff6b2fc2d4c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014is at least double.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022226bb55d85864048ba6514e52fa24a1b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019ll do. I think you\u2019ve made the point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e09c3f5619747978e282e6ba11fbafc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Building and Construction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u00224185df594bc2497d82e18c4404ac8211\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224185df594bc2497d82e18c4404ac8211\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Building and Construction: What announcements has the Government made about overseas building products?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022664a0e9c172840d194d7a43b1709f6bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022664a0e9c172840d194d7a43b1709f6bd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E As of yesterday, the first pathway in the Government\u2019s new regime for overseas-approved building products is open. Along with the Prime Minister, I made that announcement in the member\u2019s own electorate on the weekend. It means that thousands more high-quality products can now be used more easily on construction sites across New Zealand. This helps tradies get on with the important job of building housing and other infrastructure that Kiwis need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e57eafef9054bcd84b94f7578832a18\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: Why were these changes needed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a57542c360df4447a68b3b96f075e4da\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: These changes are critical to bringing down the cost of building in New Zealand\u2014costs that had jumped by 40 percent since the year 2019. It\u2019s now 50 percent more expensive in this country to build a stand-alone house than in Australia, which I and others have described as, frankly, outrageous. The Government is pulling every lever to drive economic growth, and by opening access to more quality products, we have the potential to cut thousands of dollars off the cost of building a home. More choice means more competition, which, along with innovation, will help to put downward pressure on prices, giving Kiwis options to suit their budget when building or renovating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253d60dba9ebe494d83764afc143645f8\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: What building products will become easier to access in New Zealand because of this policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b50a99f22ef48678896ebc590746ced\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: A hundred and thirty international standards released yesterday cover some of the most important elements of the materials used in homes\u2014for example, plasterboard, cladding, windows, and external doors. I note that we have some of the most expensive plasterboard in the world, with Kiwis paying around 40 to 60 percent more than in comparable countries. Thanks to these changes, plasterboard made in Australia, the UK, the EU, the United States, and, yes, still in New Zealand will be far easier to use here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f4859e8aaf74c489d28b7960a39187b\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has the Minister received about these changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec8a3914a58a4f629b4cabbf6c2f6f69\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: The feedback so far has been overwhelmingly positive. Registered Master Builders chief executive Ankit Sharma called this a big step forward for builders facing rising costs and a shortage of key materials. He has said that \u201CBy allowing overseas products that meet standards to be used more readily, we can improve supply chain resilience, reduce delays, and ultimately deliver more homes, faster and more affordably.\u201D I would also like to acknowledge all the parties in the House that supported the passage of the primary legislation allowing this regime, including the coalition Government parties but also parties from across the political aisle. This Government has many more steps planned in addition to make it easier and affordable to build in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022178e90b2e9364f97a0f83b349e6b6945\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022411e35be2f9b41d1b16b5a91e4535365\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022411e35be2f9b41d1b16b5a91e4535365\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00220b9ed29d27654727a0d2ce6a471d3e94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b9ed29d27654727a0d2ce6a471d3e94\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c107953a603f4aef9b42f349ecd918dd\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Who is his Government here to serve\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d0496c167584b46b104d13bad96ab3f\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Whoa! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222006adad653a4ddcacaec6057284b89b\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014banks, supermarkets\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022219e8fa71cba4f3895c58bbaa2c1c791\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, stop\u2014just stop. Someone is going to go from the backbench very shortly, because questions are heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246e1e41b13b34c91b3b2d1d0d24f767e\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Are you seeking nominations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d26cdffa13248e1b1da061b9d22d3c6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m not seeking nominations, but if you want to self-nominate, I\u2019ll certainly oblige.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f84371afbfe740b1935e977dd51f446b\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Who is his Government here to serve: banks, supermarkets, and electricity companies making billions in profit, or regular, hard-working New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d154c8413d34640b3afa5a7d1947060\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as the member will be well aware, we are here to support all New Zealanders, and we\u2019re giving particular help to low and middle income working Kiwis. We\u2019re doing that by offering tax relief for the first time in 14 years. It\u2019s not a deeply ideological concept, but one that is the right thing to do, given the inflation that people have encountered. We are expanding the thresholds and the coverage of things like FamilyBoost for working families who have early childcare costs. Most importantly, we\u2019re running the economy well, because if you care about low and middle income working New Zealanders, you run the economy well so that you don\u2019t have high inflation and high interest rates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fe94b6e7565439c842e1197d162a374\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister take responsibility for the 27,000 fewer jobs and 22,000 more people unemployed than at this time last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228261a46bfa6b478095daf3aa05759626\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I\u2019ve explained before, what happens is that when you increase Government spending by 84 percent, it drives up domestic inflation. The only tool that you\u2019re then left with is to drive up interest rates. When interest rates go up, businesses actually have got high interest rates and high inflation costs, and, as a result, they get squeezed, the economy goes into recession, and people lose their jobs. That is the unfortunate thing when you don\u2019t run an economy well\u2014that is the consequence. The people who suffer are low and middle income working people, who the other side of the House used to care about but don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287011c8172a84bc0828c8ed9e514adfa\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government guarantee a job for every person that it has made unemployed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7c42401e33422ebe8c54c17554598b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we are building an economy to create jobs. We are doing that by making sure we are getting kids taught the basics brilliantly so that they can access high-paying jobs. We\u2019re doing that by making reforms to our science sector to make sure we create value-added products and services that we can sell to the world; we are getting rid of the barnacles that led to over-compliance and higher costs by getting rid of the red tape and the green tape that\u2019s slowing New Zealand up; and we are making sure that we are expanding\u2014doubling\u2014trade and attracting investment to New Zealand, as well as building modern, reliable infrastructure. Those are the things that will lift the collective living standards of all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aacd4ba4eef14d8c8cf43061be4da8c9\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Why is his Government forcing small businesses into paying bank interchange fees instead of the banks, which are making billions in profit absorbing it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b568a7af47214fe0bd923d15a0d62fcc\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d just say to the member that the Commerce Commission came out last week and identified $90 million worth of reductions that merchants are charged by, say, Mastercard and Visa. We know there has been excessive charging going on. We\u2019re proud of the fact that we\u2019re removing fees and surcharges for New Zealand consumers, and, actually, if there are any other charges, we expect it to be built into pricing, just like it is for everything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204aa902d5d6c4e338618868381560b60\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government ban banks from charging interchange fees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022510cd23518e34956a14baf9f4dec9c18\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, what you\u2019ve seen is a Government that\u2019s actually done something about it by lowering the interchange fees by $90 million\u2014the fees that are charged by Mastercard and Visa\u2014and making sure that $65 million of excessive charges that retailers often pass on to consumers that have no bearing to the cost of those transaction fees is taken away. We\u2019re proud of the fact that we\u2019re taking away fees and surcharges on debit cards, credit cards, and EFTPOS payments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002255cf657937d546269c0c3f61dfb256e0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a77aa7b26fcf4dbb8c969cd268f13480\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a77aa7b26fcf4dbb8c969cd268f13480\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Housing: Does he stand by his statement, \u201CThis Government takes homelessness seriously\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u00224f80033f71534cdba5ae173051cd2d9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f80033f71534cdba5ae173051cd2d9d\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E \u0100na\u2014yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d61bc9195d524658954b7953c5d1c55b\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: How can he say that the Government is taking homelessness seriously when homelessness in T\u0101maki-makau-rau has increased by 90 percent in just nine months under this Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9eaafb5a8e04823bd0daf4d7aab86a7\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: No one in this Government or, indeed, this House wants to see Kiwis living without shelter or on the streets, or living homeless. That\u2019s why we have undertaken a number of initiatives\u2014both existing and new initiatives\u2014to ensure that we meet these challenges head on, whether or not that\u2019s cost-proofing the transitional housing and Housing First costs that were not cost-proofed before this Government came into administration; the Going for Housing Growth initiatives that Minister Bishop is leading; Priority One and seeing over 2,000 children come out of emergency motels; or whether it is the 1,500 community housing provider houses that we are supporting, the $500 million of support that we continue to support with transitional housing, or other things. Yes, we are not perfect. However, we are confronting these issues head-on and making sure we remain agile to some of the key homelessness concerns that confront many Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d10773358c024e80b8265ba4b54c7c07\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What targeted measures will he implement to support rangatahi or w\u0101hine M\u0101ori, who the Auckland Council has shown are overrepresented among the homeless in T\u0101maki-makau-rau?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cc59be4d31649a3b2731f7751b12c1e\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I\u2019d acknowledge that there are some cohorts in our communities\u2014our rangatahi included\u2014that have been disproportionately represented in housing deprivation and homelessness stats for many, many years. We continue to provide a whole range of supports, whether or not that\u2019s rangatahi supported accommodation, transitional housing, or other avenues for those cohorts in those communities that confront these serious housing and homelessness challenges. We are also very determined to ensure that more granny flats and papa k\u0101inga are enabled through national environmental standards changes that can help accommodate some of these folks and wh\u0101nau members who are in serious housing need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224831a6a5fd434061bc2a37bf83a0df18\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Should the Government\u2019s housing and homelessness strategy be grounded in Te Tiriti o Waitangi principles, as recommended by the Salvation Army and the Waitangi Tribunal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc8ddfd081094e97ac560ec2a02c4a9c\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: There are many views around how we can better confront the homelessness and serious housing deprivation challenges. On this side of the House, we are absolutely committed to ensure that we generate more supply so more Kiwis\u2014M\u0101ori, rangatahi, w\u0101hine, and otherwise\u2014can be housed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225978a84923454e648b2650b97af560f9\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Who is the Government governing for: the tamariki and wh\u0101nau who are homeless and freezing, or the landlords that received $3 billion worth of tax cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f73de0e8d2b246c3b7033ca2ac934c54\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: We govern for everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256b66ed7ed3f4fa4a7a1b51fe7187642\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Can I riff off Minister Goldsmith\u2014we govern for all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227afe25e185c2408bb7d27c5b89decf09\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That concludes oral questions. I\u2019ll take 30 seconds while those who need to leave the House for other business do so quietly, and today I\u2019ll be particularly watching for people who decide to have a conversation on the way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d70bf4f1477e4b1195154a10d24b65ad\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e70b702b71242dfb5ba067beb8a8823\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002284b9053f04a44b55a1e6d6c678568876\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284b9053f04a44b55a1e6d6c678568876\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the sitting of the House today be extended into tomorrow morning for the recommittal and reconsideration in the committee of the whole House of the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill, the committee stage of the Local Government (Water Services) Bill, the first reading and referral to select committee of the Constitution Amendment Bill, the committee stage of the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill and the Statutes Amendment Bill, and the second reading of the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill and the Customs (Levies and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022be5480fef9464c84872153ede81d6bd1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002248b5d55bfa8d4d2a9f5463da1de3f0c2\u0022\u003EElectoral Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227707aa56bc51405bb973ff843165f3fa\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00225925a878d4714968ac92a02acd0610d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225925a878d4714968ac92a02acd0610d3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Electoral Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221119e3c6934c44979530434ada5d933a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the parliamentary website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e919c2a301b24d169a149a1addcc7c13\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Electoral Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 1 December 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EOur electoral laws are a core element of our democracy. The ability to throw Governments out and to bring new ones in, in a manner that is accepted and with a process that is trusted, is fundamental to our democratic accountability. Broadly speaking, our electoral system and our democracy are strong, but they need constant maintenance. Confidence in the Electoral Commission has fallen in recent years, and we know the system has come under significant strain. This bill overhauls a number of our dated and unsustainable electoral laws. The package of amendments will strengthen the system, helping to deliver timelier election results, manage the costs, clarify rules, and provide more efficient services to voters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhen and how people enrol matters. Every democracy we compare ourselves with requires voters to be enrolled in order to vote. But there\u2019s a lot of variation as to how early people must be enrolled. In Australia, at the last federal election, voters were required to be enrolled 26 days before the election. In New Zealand, for many years, voters needed to be enrolled the day before the election. The previous Government allowed enrolling on election day itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENew Zealand\u2019s approach had the benefit of making it easier for some people to vote, but it also removed the incentive for people to get enrolled before the election. We had the Electoral Commission, on one hand, with one message saying, \u201CGet enrolled; get enrolled.\u201D, and they were funded with many millions of dollars to encourage people to enrol, which the law says you should do; but, on the other hand, they were also saying, \u201CBy the way, don\u2019t bother, because you can just rock up on election day and vote.\u201D More people heard the second message than heard the first message. As a result, more and more people were turning up and enrolling when they voted. That\u2019s led to more and more special votes and pressure on the count. The final vote count used to take two weeks. Last election, it took three. The advice I received is that if we leave things as they are, it could well take even longer in future elections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe 20-day time frame for a final result is likely to be challenging, as it stands, without these changes. Therefore, one of the most significant changes in the bill is to close enrolment before the advance voting begins. People will need to make sure that they enrol and update their enrolment details by midnight on the Sunday before advance voting opens on the Monday. That\u2019s 13 days before election day. The earlier deadline will mean enrolment changes can largely be processed before voting closes. Special voting processing can then begin sooner, reducing pressure on the final vote. This gives people a year to get organised, and I have every confidence that New Zealanders can manage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard lots of claims about 100,000 people being disenfranchised. I reject that absolutely. Around 110,000 enrolled or updated their enrolment details on election day last year only because they were told they could, so some people did. The message will be different this election. People will be told they need to be enrolled well before voting starts. It\u2019s not that hard, and people are capable of doing these things. We\u2019ll be making it even easier to stay enrolled for future elections. The bill modernises and streamlines enrolment in several ways. The Electoral Commission will now be able to use data from other Government agencies to keep address details up to date. This will make it easier for people to stay enrolled. Over time, this change will help keep enrolment details accurate between elections and contribute to a timelier vote count.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EEnrolment services need to become more efficient and digital as well. The bill will remove costly postal requirements so that people can be contacted digitally about their enrolment status. I think we all know that if you have large families like me, you\u2019ll have six envelopes from the Electoral Commission in the letterbox on a regular basis. It\u2019s very wasteful, so we\u2019re going to change those rules and adopt more modern methods. The commission will no longer have to collect and update enrolment information that it doesn\u2019t need for electoral purposes, which seems sensible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes several changes related to integrity. It will ban all prisoners serving a prison sentence from voting. This change reverses the 2020 amendment that the previous Government did. Currently, prisoners serving three years or more can\u2019t vote. Now, all sentenced prisoners won\u2019t be able to vote while they\u2019re in prison. Citizens bring both rights and responsibilities. When people are sentenced to prison for committing a crime, they should temporarily lose some of those rights, including the right to vote. This change underlines the importance that New Zealanders afford to the rule of law and personal accountability. When they\u2019re released, of course, they regain the right to vote, and Corrections will work with prisoners to facilitate that. The bill will allow people who have committed a crime but who are detained in a hospital or secure facility on mental health or disability grounds to enrol and vote. This change recognises the different status of people who are detained for the purposes of mental health treatment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EFree and fair elections rely on voters not being subject to improper influence. I\u2019m concerned that the current treating offence, which prevents people from providing food or drink to influence a person\u2019s vote, is unclear and not being enforced. The bill will make it an offence to provide free food, drink, or entertainment within 100 metres of a voting place during the voting period. The offence will be an illegal practice and subject to a fine of up to $10,000. This approach will make some rules around treating clear. It will manage the risk of any perception of inappropriate influence when people are voting. It won\u2019t apply to businesses near voting places undertaking their usual activities or where there is a reasonable excuse. The bill also extends existing offences of treating, bribery, and undue influence to cover inappropriate influence over a person\u2019s enrolment choice. This change will make sure that decisions around enrolling have the same protection as decisions around voting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe bill makes lots of changes to strengthen the resilience of our system. Currently, the Electoral Commission decides how long the advanced voting period is. This bill will require 12 days of advanced voting at each election guaranteed. This is a useful thing that we\u2019ve done. We\u2019ll also expand the Electoral Commission\u2019s board from three members to up to seven members. This change will ensure the board is well equipped if a board member is unavailable at a critical time and will widen the skill sets of the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe bill updates thresholds for reporting donations from $5,000 to $6,000, recognising inflation and rounding it up to a round figure. Finally, the bill makes many systems improvements, such as setting a single deadline for candidate nominations, automating how electoral expenditure limits are set, and addressing gaps in the law. These proposals are outlined in full in the legislative statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWell-run elections are vital to upholding public trust and confidence and support the smooth and swift transfer of power, if indeed that is required by the people\u2019s vote. The changes in this bill begin to transition to more modern and sustainable settings and enabling more timely and efficient elections in the future. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002211ddb6c247ee4a5ba374559932d0acc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211ddb6c247ee4a5ba374559932d0acc1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, it\u2019s a dark day for democracy. Here in New Zealand, we have a proud tradition of extending the franchise to women before any other country in the world and of constantly making our democracy accessible to everyone, and what\u2019s this Government doing? What\u2019s Christopher Luxon doing? He is making it harder for people to vote. It\u2019s shameful\u2014it\u2019s absolutely shameful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe know that 110,000 people enrolled and voted on election day last year, and it\u2019s all very nice for the Minister of Justice to suppose that they might enrol earlier, but 137,000 people actually changed their details in the voting period. That\u2019s 137,000 people for whom he is making it harder to vote. He wants to stop people enrolling, stop all those people exercising their vote\u2014that\u2019s hundreds of thousands of people who might not get a say in our democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI think that everyone is entitled to have a say in our democracy: working people, busy people, people caring for kids, and\u2014hey, do you know what?\u2014people who forget to enrol two weeks before as well, because not everyone is fixated on politics and elections, and sometimes it takes until the last two weeks to think, \u201CI really need to get around to that.\u201D Politicians should be making it easier for people to vote, not harder. That\u2019s how we make sure that everybody\u2019s voice is heard, that everyone gets a say, and that this democracy\u2014this Parliament\u2014is truly representative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMaking it harder for working Kiwis and Kiwi parents to vote just shows how out of touch Christopher Luxon and this Government is, but do you know what\u2019s really shocking? It is that all of the advice that the Minister has got has said that this is a bad idea. In fact, if you look at the regulatory impact statement, it says that there are other things you can do which are much more effective: enable electronic enrolment, enable automatic enrolment\u2014and then there\u2019s the Attorney-General\u2019s report. The Attorney-General, frankly, slated this bill. I have never seen an Attorney-General\u2019s report which is so bluntly vicious and damning, saying things like \u201Cfreezing registration earlier in the voting period has the potential to harm confidence and trust\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIf people want to vote and they\u2019re shown the hand and they\u2019re told \u201CSorry, too late. You\u2019re out of luck\u2014you didn\u2019t do your paperwork.\u201D, what does that say about trust in our democracy? It is undermining the trust in our democracy, and that Government has undermined it a lot already and it\u2019s doing it again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe Attorney-General also said\u2014and this is important\u2014that the \u201Cstarting-point is the fundamental importance of the right to vote within a liberal democracy. A compelling justification is required to limit that right.\u201D, and did the Attorney-General think that there was a compelling justification? No, she quite honestly and frankly said that this is not justified. This is an unjustified limitation on the guaranteed right in section 12 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act to exercise that vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s more, if you then go to the departmental work\u2014the regulatory impact statement\u2014it says that it won\u2019t work. Their advice, on page 23 of the report, is that this initiative \u201CCould result in lower enrolment rates, lower turnout, and more disallowed votes.\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ec239ff959742be88e1179ef7b16083\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what they want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5f1294a6c22458ba4adfa68065b44d5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and that it \u201CReduces ease for voters and creates a barrier to participation.\u201D That is right, Damien O\u2019Connor\u2014that\u2019s exactly what they want. They don\u2019t want everyone to get down to the polling booth and have their say, because they don\u2019t represent all of New Zealand. Christopher Luxon is making it harder for people to vote. He is so out of touch with ordinary New Zealanders that he doesn\u2019t get that not everyone remembers to do their administration 14 days before the voting period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt is a dark day for democracy. This is a huge step backwards, and we should be thoroughly ashamed of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022a08a7d2f30f846f299531dd499cd3010\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a08a7d2f30f846f299531dd499cd3010\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Here we have this Government making it harder for ordinary, everyday, regular people to be able to have a say and have a vote, and easier for big money to influence Government. The beginning explanatory note of this bill talks about a \u201Cmodern, robust, and effective\u201D democracy. This bill proposes the exact opposite of a modern and robust, effective democracy, because it intentionally seeks to deny entire groups of people and communities from having easier access to be able to enrol and to be able to vote, while at the same time it is shifting the threshold for donations to be declared. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EIt allows for more and more of big money to have a say, which is consistent with what this Government\u2019s approach has been this entire term: making it easier for their mates, like tobacco, like fossil fuel executives, to be able to have an influence\u2014like landlords, who own massive swathes of houses, who have more influence on this Government than the ordinary person who\u2019s just trying to get along, just trying to survive, has got a million things to be responsible for, and also doesn\u2019t always see themselves represented in the political decisions of successive Governments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI would have thought that any Government wants to, actually, instead encourage higher voter turnout, encourage more people wanting to be able to register, wanting to participate. The fact that we had hundreds of thousands of people turning up to vote on election day speaks to the fact that people want to have a say, speaks to the fact that if we were serious about\u2014and this was the Minister\u2019s own words at the beginning of his speech\u2014ensuring a strong democracy, then we would be removing the barriers that this Government is wanting to put back in place by removing the ability to vote on the same day, by it removing the ability to enrol and vote on the same day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThe many research reports\u2014the Auditor-General\u2019s reports and independent election reports after reports after reports\u2014have highlighted exactly who would miss out on being able to participate with these particular proposals; have highlighted that young people, people who rent, M\u0101ori communities, Pasifika communities, Asian communities, and people with disabilities have had these barriers for far too long, and that the proposals that this Government is trying to put in place put those barriers down in the concrete even more so. That is the message that they are sending to this country: who they want to make it easier for, and who they want to make it harder for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI did want to pick up on the prison voting ban as well, because report after report, research after research, has again highlighted that we have inbuilt systemic discrimination in our prison systems, in our justice systems. That has been clear; that\u2019s not even up for debate. It has been said time and time again. It means that disproportionately more M\u0101ori are imprisoned, more Pasifika people are imprisoned, more brown people and low-income families are imprisoned. So adding an extra punishment on top of the penalty that they are already receiving\u2014it\u2019s no wonder that the Auditor-General really called that out as actually denying basic, fundamental human rights. We do not add an extra penalty on top of the punishment that they are already serving, and especially when it is highlighted that this justice system already discriminates on communities and people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo, again, who is this Government wanting to benefit? Not all of those communities that I\u2019ve just mentioned in the speech. In fact, if we were truly interested in a strong democracy, then we would actually reduce the donation disclosure\u2014according to, also, the independent report advice, which wanted to go down to $500, and instead this Government wants to increase it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWe would restore same-day enrolment and voting. That\u2019s what the Greens would do. We would make it 16. If we want a strong democracy, all the evidence shows that when we are able to afford younger voters that opportunity, that will set up good voting habits for life. So that\u2019s something that this Government could do straight away if they wanted. We would ensure things like civics in schools. If you want people to be enrolled, then having that education in schools is a good way of having a strong democracy. The Greens would also cap donations at $30,000. It is clear this Government are here simping for big money in politics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad6cce95567849b2915f82f60bd8ad29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad6cce95567849b2915f82f60bd8ad29\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of ACT to speak on the Electoral Amendment Bill. Yes, our voting arrangements and our democracy are very important, and it is appropriate that from time to time we do look at the settings under which New Zealanders cast their vote. This bill looks to make some significant but effective changes to ensure that our democracy and the results of our elections are upheld, integrity is maintained, and we have it done in a timely way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EThere has been a lot said already about enrolment on voting day. As has been outlined, one of the changes the Minister spoke about is just ensuring that people have to be enrolled 13 days before the election. Voting in a democracy such as ours does come with some responsibilities, and it\u2019s one of those responsibilities to actually be on the electoral roll\u2014that\u2019s a legal requirement. If you can\u2019t be bothered doing that within a short period before an election, you\u2019ve really got to question whether you have a commitment to being a participant in our democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a modest change\u201413 days before the election, you need to have enrolled. As the Minister has also said, other jurisdictions like Australia require you to have enrolled 26 days before an election, so it\u2019s a fairly modest change. There are actually a thousand days between elections, so that is plenty of time for people to take a few minutes. You can actually enrol online; you can go to elections.org.nz today and enrol, if you wish. There will be plenty of time for people to be enrolled, and the Electoral Commission will be running reminders around that. Tied to that is a really good change around setting 12 days for the advance voting period and putting that in legislation. That\u2019s a really great change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EThe other one, which we are very pleased to support, is actually stopping prisoners in prison from voting. Labour made this change, and we think it was unprincipled. As people in New Zealand understand, if you\u2019ve committed a crime, you\u2019ve violated someone else\u2019s rights, and there are consequences for that, and so for prisoners in jail, not voting is one of those consequences. We think these are sensible changes. The other one is around treating. Again, we believe in this clarification around treating, because we don\u2019t believe freebies and gimmicks have any place near the ballot box, and we just want to make sure that\u2019s spelt out very clearly and people understand that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EThere will be a select committee process, and as a member of the Justice Committee, I look forward to hearing people\u2019s submissions. But it is important that we ensure that our electoral system integrity is upheld, it is transparent, and it\u2019s not open to fraud. We think these changes do that. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u002229df7e239a2045bf8865d6b9be9c2e97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229df7e239a2045bf8865d6b9be9c2e97\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak in support of the Electoral Amendment Bill. The purpose of this bill is to amend the Electoral Act to make electoral law and administration more modern, robust, and effective ahead of the next general election. It\u2019s about making a range of systems improvements, etc., and I\u2019m going to pick on a couple of those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe first is that I think we can all remember back to the last election, and one of the things that there was significant concern about was the length of time it took to get to the final result. This piece of legislation is part of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207867a736fb246648dd67b6c0536378b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: That was your fault.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e15fcf011de430ebc88edca47bbc3ab\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Opposition may have been more concerned about the actual result than about the length of time it took to get to that point, but I think the country wanted to get to the point where we actually had a result, so that the parties could then form a Government and be able to move on with that. This will allow that to happen more effectively, more efficiently, and for the Government to be able to get on with the business of governing. There are a number of other things in terms of efficiency. One of those is to be able to do a lot of the electoral enrolment process in a way that is not confined quite as much as it is today to the postal system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe other two things I wanted to say: first of all is this issue that we\u2019ve heard raised by the Opposition about 110,000 people now somehow being disenfranchised because they chose, in the last election, to enrol on the day. Well, the reality is that if you say to people, \u201CLook, you\u2019ve got to enrol a number of days in advance of the election to make sure that the electoral rolls are ready and the system is ready to go and is able to deliver the electoral result more efficiently, effectively, and earlier\u201D, then there is a different deadline. Instead of being on the day, it\u2019s some days before that, and that, as we\u2019ve heard before, is about some degree of personal responsibility to be able to get yourself organised in time to enrol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe other thing I wanted to mention was the Manurewa Marae amendment clause, and that is the one about stopping treating close to a polling place. I think that that is a very sound amendment, because, clearly, if you are giving people something in the process of the election which is associated with a particular political party, that is something that is going to potentially encourage people to vote in a particular way, and that clearly is not appropriate. We all, I think, are looking forward to a report on that matter at some point in time\u2014hopefully, before the next election would be very, very helpful. That, to me, seems a very, very sensible amendment and a very sensible clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe final thing I wanted to say, because we have heard a little bit about the prisoner voting side of things, is, look, if you\u2019re in prison, you can\u2019t be enrolled, can\u2019t vote, but on the flip side of that, which I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve heard the Opposition say yet, people who are in other forms of institutions\u2014whether it\u2019s mental institutions, disability institutions; those kinds of facilities\u2014will now be able to vote, and I think that that is a positive thing there. I know there will be a lot of debate to and fro as this goes to the select committee. I think we will all look forward to that process, and I commend the bill to the House, and good luck to the Justice Committee in dealing with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022aba300227de14133ba25deb3cb4c7bb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aba300227de14133ba25deb3cb4c7bb1\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. First of all, I stand up to oppose this bill. This bill, listening to it all eloquently being introduced as something that\u2019s going to help efficiency and accountability\u2014I call that out. This bill is about silencing. It\u2019s about using power hoarding\u2014this obsessive control\u2014to rig the electoral system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been really interesting to listen to the previous speaker bring up Manurewa when there\u2019s actually been no conviction. What we\u2019re listening to, in fact, is speculation, and those who are happy to spend millions of dollars to go out and advertise on TV, but for goodness\u2019 sake, don\u2019t dare give a cup of tea to anyone. What it is\u2014and we saw it, actually, this rigged system. We saw the mask slip this week when the so-called Minister for Regulation, David Seymour, who helped design these reforms, had the audacity to label 100,000 people as \u201Cdropkicks\u201D. This is, in fact, a politician, a leader whose ideal leader was once Jago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI want to talk about what this bill will do. First of all, it\u2019s banning enrolments 13 days before the election, which, according to their own team member, the Attorney-General, could disenfranchise over 100,000 people disproportionately: M\u0101ori, Pasifika, Asian. It reinstates a total ban on prisoner voting, when every court in the country, including the tribunal, the electoral review, have all said that this is a breach of basic human rights, but\u2014ha!\u2014surprise, surprise from this Government. It raises the donation disclosure threshold, making it easier for the rich donors to buy and influence in silence. It criminalises the provision\u2014as we heard earlier\u2014of free food, where those are going to be eligible for a $10,000 fine, which for some of them is actually more than what their whole income will be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThis is an electoral suppression by design. It is racism by design. It is justice by design in the image of a Government that wants fewer M\u0101ori voting, fewer rangatahi engaged, and fewer people with any power. And let\u2019s talk about the numbers. In 2023, 48 percent of M\u0101ori voters aged 18 to 19 enrolled or updated their details during the voting period; only 9.8 percent of non-M\u0101ori did the same. So nearly 19 percent of M\u0101ori roll voters used this period to enrol or update. This bill is not race-neutral; it is race-targeted, like a whole lot of other bills that we\u2019ve seen come through from this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not a coincidence that the very communities who would be silenced are the same communities that wouldn\u2019t vote for this Government, and probably the same communities that made up the netballers on the weekend. They say they\u2019re fixing democracy, but let\u2019s remember this is the same Government that has abolished M\u0101ori wards, introduced the Treaty principles bill, dismantled co-governance, Te Aka Whai Ora. And we know, again, why they do not want to see 16-year-olds voting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EUnder Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, we would reinstate the right to vote for all prisoners, because prison shouldn\u2019t mean political erasure. We would bring the vote to 16-year-olds, because many of them are working two jobs before they even go to school\u2014do not insult their intelligence by saying they do not know what this country needs. We would ensure every wh\u0101nau has the right to enrol right up to the moment that they can cast their vote, because that is what a fair, secure democracy demands. We would defend mana motuhake, because our right to participate in decisions that affect our lives does not begin and end at the convenience of the super-rich and this particular Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThe bill is a declaration of war on rangatahi M\u0101ori, on the rights of the incarcerated, and on the political agency of our people. It\u2019s not about fairness. I want to say to those 100,000 people that have been called \u201Cdropkicks\u201D by this Government\u2019s Minister, by this Government\u2019s, actually, current Deputy Prime Minister: you are not the problem. You are not the reason why votes and these types of Governments are getting in. You are the reason why we fight. You are not worthless\u2014you are worthy. You are worthy of dignity, you are worthy of equity, you are worthy of leaders who serve and recognise you. We want to make sure that you never ever ever let this type of Government through again, wh\u0101nau, so make sure that you enrol. And to David Seymour, if you are so worried about dropkicks, start by looking in the mirror. Kia ora r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002233fa144a73244400aa6dd4db7d325554\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233fa144a73244400aa6dd4db7d325554\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is a great piece of legislation. It\u2019s time for people around New Zealand to take some personal responsibility. The law already requires you to be enrolled to vote, so get on and get enrolled in advance of next year\u2019s election. Don\u2019t wait for election day to do it; do it now. Get enrolled today. Get in there and do it. This improves timeliness and efficiency of electoral administration. It\u2019s great to see Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori turn up to the debating chamber today. Strengthening the integrity of electoral law, ensuring resilience of the electoral system\u2014this is a great piece of legislation, and, as a member of the Justice Committee, I\u2019m looking forward to considering it and I\u2019m looking forward to the member making contributions to the Justice Committee as well. I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u00227f6fb13db6de43c89b6183cd1d69fa42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f6fb13db6de43c89b6183cd1d69fa42\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. E t\u016B ana awau ki te whakah\u0113 i t\u0113nei pire, ar\u0101 te Electoral Amendment Bill, m\u0101 te P\u0101ti Reipa, m\u0101 Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[I stand to oppose this bill, the Electoral Amendment Bill, for the Labour Party and for Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EThe rhetoric around this bill is that these proposed changes will make voting more reliable and efficient. I ask: for whom? The purpose of an election is for the people across Aotearoa to have their say. Each of us here is an elected voice of the people across Aotearoa. They are the priority\u2014the voters. Should we not be making it convenient for them, the people we serve? Minister Goldsmith stated in his introductory speech, \u201CThe system is under strain.\u201D How out of touch with New Zealand can you be? If we want to talk about being under strain, let\u2019s talk about wh\u0101nau across Aotearoa who are under strain\u2014under strain from the everyday struggles this Government is imposing on them; under strain from the cost of living; under strain with worry about where they will live; under strain from job losses\u2014the list goes on. Instead of choosing to sort these very real issues out, the Government is choosing to make it harder to vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori participation is already low. In Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti, voter turnout over the last two elections sat at around 67 percent, rising from 26,047 in 2020 to 27,362 in 2023. That increase of 1,315 voters, I know, partially came from first-time voters enrolling on the day\u2014as they should have the right to do. Voter apathy is very real in our communities, and walking through that door is hard enough for a lot of wh\u0101nau, who, potentially, have saved up their gas money to be able to do it on the day. While I want to acknowledge the many local faces who work at our polling booths and make what can be a frigid process a bit more comfortable, there were still reports of people being turned away last election. Putting up another barrier is the last thing we need to do. Work does need to be done to increase participation, but the work needs to be done on the system, not the voters\u2014or, as the ACT Party leader called people who enrol late, \u201Cdisengaged, lazy dropkicks\u201D. E k\u012B, e k\u012B! [Is that so!] How on earth can you claim to be a Government of all people when you are marginalising the voices of voters? The short answer: you can\u2019t. Aotearoa knows this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EOne word comes to mind when thinking of the motivation for this bill: mataku\u2014fear. People across Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti, and Aotearoa, know that this Government are taking us backwards, and they will be lining up at the polls to make sure this is a one-term Government\u2014and this coalition do not want that. This is another pitiful attempt to marginalise and silence people, and it will be unsuccessful. Continue to enrol, wh\u0101nau m\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHow exactly are they going to engage with wh\u0101nau to ensure the opportunity to enrol, and transfer roll, and vote? I don\u2019t know if this Government have noticed, but there\u2019s a housing crisis going on in Aotearoa; people are transient and homeless. Don\u2019t tell me digital communication is the answer, because I invite you to Maraehara Road, Rangitukia, where we don\u2019t have cellphone coverage, and not every home has internet or devices, but we do still have good old rural delivery. Sadly, though, Minister Goldsmith said that postal mail-outs are wasteful\u2014and I guess our rural, isolated voters just ain\u2019t worth it. This bill is another tool to isolate and silence people at a time when this Government know Aotearoa wants them out. I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcf5b0da7cbd453dac32e612abea4ffc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcf5b0da7cbd453dac32e612abea4ffc\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. We\u2019re in the first reading of the Electoral Amendment Bill. I\u2019d just like to remind our listeners that in 1975, the third Labour Government allowed all prisoners to be regifted the privilege to vote, and in 2020 the sixth Labour Government gave convicted prisoners the right to vote again. What does this say? Labour is on the side of criminals; National is on the side of victims. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u00225378fdc761bb4be7b0d150991cf4418a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225378fdc761bb4be7b0d150991cf4418a\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I agree with my colleague that this is a dark day in democracy, and I rise to speak against this irrational and profoundly unjust bill. There are times when this House but also the people of New Zealand need to pay very, very close attention, and it\u2019s when bills are tabled that touch the bones of our democracy, as this one does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThis is an abhorrent breach of rights, because here in New Zealand, we lean so heavily into parliamentary supremacy that the only way people truly have\u2014the singular way people truly have\u2014to agree to being governed or to object to being governed is to exercise their vote. When the vote is diminished and when it\u2019s removed from certain groups of people, we must pay attention, because in many ways, it is following what could be described as a handbook on authoritarian politics, where rule number one is when you get into power, you must work out how to make it very difficult to be removed from power. This is what we\u2019re discussing today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ENow, I want to talk about the irrationality, but firstly I want to talk about an oddity in this legislation. Before it was introduced to the House, it was actually in an omnibus bill with the changes to the Constitution Act that the Government is introducing later today or this week. I was trying to work out why the two have been separated. From what I can see, the philosophy between the two is quite different. With the Constitution Act, the change made acknowledges that a statutory time limit, the 28-day rule, can and should be removed. In this case, what the Minister\u2019s telling us is that the 20-day rule is very, very important. If we can\u2019t get all the valid votes counted in the 20 days, that\u2019s hugely problematic, and we need to stop some people being able to vote. Well, hang on! It feels like there\u2019s an easy solution to this, which is to extend the date, but that doesn\u2019t seem to be something that the Minister has considered. In fact, many countries that we compare ourselves to don\u2019t actually set a date by which those votes must be counted. The UK just has a practical test. Canada doesn\u2019t. Sweden doesn\u2019t. Denmark doesn\u2019t. Norway doesn\u2019t. They recognise that the most important thing is that the most people who have the right to vote are given every opportunity to do so. Yet this Government is taking us backwards\u2014apparently for a very, very disturbingly particular reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ENow, the other thing I wanted to talk about is the oddities in the bill, and my credit goes to the Attorney-General, who sets this out beautifully in her section 7 report. She talks about the \u201Cblanket disenfranchisement\u201D of people imprisoned, and she makes these points about who will and won\u2019t be able to vote: \u201CA person imprisoned for a one-month period, that happens to coincide with polling day, shall be disenfranchised but a person who committed a premeditated murder, but is released on parole in the weeks prior to election day, shall be able to vote, as will a person that serves a two-year sentence in between elections. A person convicted of serious sexual offending but [who has] not yet [been] sentenced, shall be able to vote. Persons sentenced to imprisonment of two years or less are eligible for home detention, but whether [that] person is detained [at home at all or is in prison will depend on whether they\u2019ve got an address to be detained within].\u201D It is absolutely incomprehensible that these people are being treated quite differently, just dependent on where they\u2019re located.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EA member opposite referenced the fact that people who are in mental health or other facilities will now be able to vote. Well, guess what! This means that people who are in prison who have medical issues during the election will be able to vote if they\u2019re held in a health facility but won\u2019t be able to vote if they\u2019re held in prison. It is simply irrational, simply illogical, and very, very telling\u2014very telling\u2014about the motivations of this Government when it comes down to really considering whether they want to hear what everyone believes. There are many people who are sick of the rising costs of living who would like to be able to tell this Government so. Give them the right to be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022e042f82da97a48abac00e2ff208f8692\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e042f82da97a48abac00e2ff208f8692\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak in support of the Electoral Amendment Bill. Banks Peninsula is one of the most engaged electorates in New Zealand. At the last election, we had 99.5 percent of eligible voters enrolled, and over 86 percent of them turned out to vote. I\u2019m sure that my constituents will be able to get themselves sorted and get themselves enrolled to vote in such outstanding numbers again. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002267f8a1269c124aa5a374171fcc528eac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Electoral Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000315\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002221e4a60e5f9347619625e74fe4848352\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221e4a60e5f9347619625e74fe4848352\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Electoral Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ba7c822088d4d2c945002074f35adb6\u0022\u003EInstruction to the Justice Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00222fa9c3b73b2e42aab9784d794f4599fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fa9c3b73b2e42aab9784d794f4599fa\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: I move, That the Electoral Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 1 December 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd32ba0ad8084581b76bb544edfafe93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd32ba0ad8084581b76bb544edfafe93\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That in the preceding motion, the words \u201C1 December 2025\u201D be replaced by \u201C9 February 2026\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bb0be41cd375473fb282ec80b3ca8a5c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment in the name of the Hon Dr Duncan Webb be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229df3388851094587aefd0dbe69b763cd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Electoral Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 1 December 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a775484793d84b7a9301641e6d67d840\u0022\u003ECrown Minerals Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220cd267ec10d94708b37950d206242cee\u0022\u003ERecommittal\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00228aa967bdb9534b898d81b1a08e2b1d41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228aa967bdb9534b898d81b1a08e2b1d41\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the order of the day for the third reading of the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill be discharged and the bill be recommitted immediately to consider Amendment Paper 343 in my name. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022406057472b0c4b3083f9f1eed1eab430\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5004a24e6ff48c9b4b9550e3824ffa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5004a24e6ff48c9b4b9550e3824ffa4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of Amendment Paper\u00A0343.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bdba16e5e2644ad6a76be58ef585c49e\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00228ab840b6cb3c453493f61ebed91d66a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ab840b6cb3c453493f61ebed91d66a7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee. The House has resolved to recommit the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill to consider the Minister of Resources\u2019 amendments set out on Amendment Paper 343.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI just wish to give the committee some guidance about the committee stage of the recommitted bill. There are aspects of the bill that were debated when the bill was last considered in the committee of the whole House that are not amended by Amendment Paper 343. These matters are therefore not open for debate again. This includes provisions relating to the issue of Government policy statements in Part 1 of the bill, matters relating to the removal of the ban on new petroleum exploration beyond onshore Taranaki in Part 2 of the bill, and provisions relating to service of documents in Part 3 of the bill. Other aspects of the bill are amended by the Amendment Paper or affected by it. I will provide further guidance at the beginning of each debate. The chair is the sole judge of relevance, and we will be looking for material that is relevant to the Amendment Paper. Noting that this is a complex and technical area, the bill has just been recommitted, and the Amendment Paper was only released at 5\u00A0p.m. yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225b0d620009d145109054fe178d522926\u0022\u003EAmendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 343\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00223f7a405582f04505b483da2158957035\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f7a405582f04505b483da2158957035\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come first to the amendments proposed to Part 1 of the bill. This is the debate on amendments to clauses 5, 8, 9, and 10 set out on Amendment Paper\u00A0343. This question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022da0029021f9842b38a2d75bb7035cad5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da0029021f9842b38a2d75bb7035cad5\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. Thank you for your guidance to help us in this, but as you\u2019ve mentioned, it was 5 p.m. yesterday that this was presented. From this side, as we go through and we work our way to make sure we clarify and understand, I think for some of it, we may, potentially, veer in a few spaces because we\u2019re trying to dig into the actual answer. I\u2019d just ask for some guidance, but also some support, from you, as the Chair, that as we do, maybe, veer off, we\u2019re not doing it on purpose; we\u2019re just trying to make sure that we can get clarity and come to the places that we need to in this legislation\u2014which is very unusual. It\u2019s not unprecedented, but it is unusual for us to be coming into this space this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00222b55a9103426440fa354c8365c36a064\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b55a9103426440fa354c8365c36a064\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand, which is why I made those signals early on, that we\u2019re taking into account the fact that this was only presented at 5 p.m. and that there is some relevance across other parts of the bill\u2014so there will be some leniency in the scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8750537eb6540ed922076eefcd3471e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8750537eb6540ed922076eefcd3471e\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I draw the House\u2019s attention to this Amendment Paper 343 because the contributions to this sensible amendment ought to be tight and they ought to be focused. If I can very quickly elaborate what is the problem that we have sought to remedy: the previous regime did not deal with a particular issue. The issue is that there are several ways how a person or an entity can move on from holding a permit. One is they can sell the permit; one is they can dispose of the script or the equity in an entity that holds a permit; of course, the other two involve the Crown: either have the permit taken off you or, indeed, a surrender back to the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIf I could direct the attention of the various members who will speak on this issue: it became evident to us that someone departing, through a process of a share transfer or disposal of equity, may escape any liability whatsoever. Now, this is an important issue, that an entity or a person, having held these entitlements to derive economic returns from our natural resource base with rights allocated, if not originally under the Petroleum Act 1937 then certainly under the Crown Minerals Act, which we are amending today\u2014so this corrects that loophole, which has actually existed for quite some time. The balance that we\u2019ve sought to strike is to ensure that we don\u2019t provide an unnecessary level of risk to the revenue base of the Crown or, at the same time, we don\u2019t add to the chilling impact that has blighted this sector for quite some time. That is the balance that we\u2019ve sought to strike in remedying the situation that we uncovered once we went to a more finicky level than was originally used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022661d98b8e4dc4d249cb5d010496cbc09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022661d98b8e4dc4d249cb5d010496cbc09\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the first call, can I please ask members to refer to the clause that you are speaking to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00222d4ef4e634054007a7f1c200f8b92c41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d4ef4e634054007a7f1c200f8b92c41\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just as the Minister did, I will spend a little time on the problem definition in this contribution, that one of the\u2014we know that what this bill is doing, this Amendment Paper that we\u2019ve got before us, is around the decommissioning regime and particularly the liability laws and the trailing liability rules that are around that. I think we\u2019re in a relatively unique situation for this House, to have a recommitted bill with an Amendment Paper of this substance to go through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThese are big questions that sit in here that we do need, as a committee, some time to scrutinise. There\u2019re some very important questions that sit in this Amendment Paper that is before us here. The Minister says that these are loopholes that are being closed for the betterment and to protect the public interest. Throughout all parts of this bill, we\u2019ll be saying and asking and asking for an explanation from the Minister: why does that require ministerial discretion-making powers? That is what this Amendment Paper gives. It stops there being a statutory decision being made to one where a Minister or two Ministers\u2014the Minister for Resources and the Minister of Finance\u2014will make discretionary decisions and, as we will go into throughout various parts of this bill, there is no criteria for that decision making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo the Minister needs to spend his time in the chair answering some very specific questions and outlining to this House\u2014given he has brought an Amendment Paper that has only been before the House for a very small amount of time, given that this has been away from the House for nearly eight months and this has dropped with 24 hours\u2019 notice, he needs to explain in some detail how it is that these discretionary powers are exercised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, obviously, Part 2 of the bill does put into play those discretionary powers, but we can see, for example, clause 10 of Part 1: \u201Cto make decisions (with others) on whether to require outgoing guarantees and, if so, to determine what outgoing guarantees are appropriate\u201D\u2014we can see that discretion is coming in here and we need to start doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, to say this Amendment Paper has had a unique passage to this House is somewhat of an understatement. This started out that the Government brought a bill to the House, it went away to select committee, and then an Amendment Paper was brought at committee stage around the decommissioning regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Amendment Paper that we have in front of us scraps all of that; it puts aside both the original bill and the original amendment, and proposes a different regime. So this requires some solid explanation, because we are not talking about something trivial or small or, indeed, theoretical. This is about how we protect New Zealand taxpayers, and this is not a theoretical discussion. We know from the cost of the Tui clean-up, when our Government had to change the law because the previous National Government had left the door wide open, that New Zealand taxpayers had to fork out over $440 million to clean up, in that in that scenario. Our Government changed the law to protect New Zealand taxpayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe original bill that was brought to this House weakened those decommissioning obligations that we had put in place on the oil and gas companies. This Amendment Paper that we have before us today further weakens those protections for the New Zealand taxpayer, and this is serious, because what we do know is that we have total decommissioning costs for New Zealand oilfields of approximately $2.5 billion sitting ahead of us; we have $2 billion needed for four offshore fields, and nearly $500 million for 2021 onshore fields.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo this is no small or theoretical problem that we are discussing today. Our Government\u2014when we were in Government\u2014was not prepared to put the New Zealand taxpayer at risk. This Government has shown they are. They have bowed to the suggestions of the oil and gas companies and done what they wanted. They have further bowed to the interests of the oil and gas companies in taking eight months to sit with them, find out what they wanted, and then bring a bill back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis is not a Government that is putting New Zealand first, that is certainly for sure. What we see is a Government that is prepared to put big oil and big gas companies before the interests of the taxpayers of New Zealand, with these watered-down provisions that we are going to be seeking answers about today in these decommissioning obligations that are there. It has been a torturous path to get here; it is going to require some unpicking, and our side of the House certainly will have a series of questions around why a Government thinks it is better to bow to the interests of the oil and gas companies than to stand up New Zealanders and to protect New Zealand taxpayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e959d925c66a4bc991cde0a915a0073b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e959d925c66a4bc991cde0a915a0073b\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Just a short response. Can I encourage all contributors to identify what provision and what page they\u2019re referring to, because I suspect they haven\u2019t read the bill. On page 11, new section 41F clearly lays it out. This is why the answers, had they read the bill\u2014you don\u2019t need to address it in a generic way. Those answers lie in front of you. It\u2019s just not reasonable for a recitation of a regime that\u2019s long gone. We don\u2019t need to hear arguments that were recited when this matter was dealt with before, prior to us discovering the loophole that had been left by the Jacinda Ardern regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022924dfcb6c0fa4bca9f222f1e8de9a626\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3a2d77ccf344393bb3189deefd67945\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3a2d77ccf344393bb3189deefd67945\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s no need for a point of order, Dr Megan Woods. I did give instruction at the beginning for contributions to refer to the particular part and clause that we were debating. I gave some leverage on that because it was an introduction to the bill, but I think, from now on, we come back and we\u2019re very explicit about the part and the clause that is being referred to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022471aa7a95d1e4a7db12e0e68eb3d0362\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022471aa7a95d1e4a7db12e0e68eb3d0362\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m just seeking clarification. That ruling that you just made will also apply to the Minister, I take it, to be in the right part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00226a8bb838da6042c386eaf716ac8db8e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a8bb838da6042c386eaf716ac8db8e6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: It applies to the whole committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00222cb986810c0e4e26a6090ddb96d87c56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cb986810c0e4e26a6090ddb96d87c56\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chairperson. Thank you, Madam Chair. I didn\u2019t want to interrupt the flow earlier, but I did note that the Minister has a penchant for, effectively, providing objections from the chair during the contributions from members. It\u2019s well understood that that is not an appropriate practice to adopt, and so I was just wanting to flag that with you so that perhaps we would get off to a good start and good tone, rather than having to draw that to the attention, moving forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3a1a7ee4be94be09bcfcabaa23a8a24\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I assure you that it did not escape my attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d78b01b6e2ee44d2a58b747dee07eade\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u002288f47698bd8a4c6d8cf5c251feb7675d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288f47698bd8a4c6d8cf5c251feb7675d\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be referring to new clause 26B on Amendment Paper 343, which is the removal of sections 41AA and 41AB, which are to be replaced with new sections 41AA and 41AB, as outlined on page 3. It is important, of course, for context, to understand the problem that we\u2019re trying to deal with here, and in that regard, a lot of my questions will prosecute the scale of the challenge that we face with decommissioning, because defining who is liable for those costs of decommissioning, which can be substantial\u2014as has been outlined by my colleague Megan Woods\u2014is very important, and so is how those liabilities will be met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENoting that the Minister has obviously grappled with a lot of advice on this matter and has come back to the committee of the whole House a second time with his new amendment, which reverses the position of the bill that was introduced in November 2024 and makes it so that existing permit holders are absolutely liable for unmet commissioning\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00229bd65342877e48ffa744eb14ba4393eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bd65342877e48ffa744eb14ba4393eb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member, but can you please clarify which part\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c54e99118de420aa5d3076ee2bd7dd4\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: New clause 26B on page 3. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4f7a22ed00b429aba5d6b106b489001\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Is that in Part 1 of the bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b39449d2600b4b7f9b37b5916b8e3c1c\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, yes, we\u2019re on Part 1, right\u2014oh, shit! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f3cf5c617574a5696c341ad49634ee5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9577a58b05d4821a33c3ba935002b7c\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d jumped across. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ab90f18c7854a7c8b0051ca559a04a0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll come back to you in Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251a63b344f704d91a10422eb113f8a79\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you\u2019re absolutely right\u2014my apologies, Madam Chair. Yes, I\u2019ve got ahead of myself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022e867f0a8589d4778867eba7ff67b8118\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e867f0a8589d4778867eba7ff67b8118\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to pick up on something the Minister said. The Minister said that if only we had read the bill, we wouldn\u2019t be asking some of the questions that we were asking. Of course, this Amendment Paper was dropped on the Table at 5 p.m. last night, when no members were here in the House. It\u2019s a substantial Amendment Paper. It might be about a narrow and technical issue, but there are 21 pages before we get to the explanatory note. We actually need to spend some time on this, and we\u2019re going to do it clause by clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to direct the Minister\u2019s attention right back to the start of this, and I\u2019m going back to clause\u00A05 on Amendment Paper 343\u2014it\u2019s page 1, clause 5\u2014which is in Part 1 of the bill, and it inserts\u2014sorry, it\u2019s page 4 of the bill, page 1 of the Amendment Paper. What it does is it inserts clause 5(5), \u201Ca transfer of a participating interest in a permit or the transfer of a license or a participating interest in a license is effective on and after the date of the Minister\u2019s consent to that transfer.\u201D So there\u2019s a couple of things that are interesting there. Now, we do need to explore what the Minister\u2019s consent is. I understand, from the fact that the Minister went into this on his previous contribution, that perhaps that is addressed later on, and we\u2019ll get to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe date, as well, is kind of quite interesting, because it just implies that until we know what the conditions of the consent around that are, there\u2019s a degree of judgment, a degree of flexibility, a degree of, I suppose, a capacity for the Minister to delay the particular date of consenting to it, to accelerate the date. There\u2019s a degree of discretion there for the Minister as to when that transfer might become effective. Of course, that then impacts everything else in the bill, because the transfer is quite important. What I want to understand from the Minister is the extent to which that Minister\u2019s consent\u2014which we\u2019re going to discuss later\u2014can be, I suppose, gamed, as it were, by shifting the date around. There\u2019s a possibility that that could happen. I want to know what safeguards the Minister has in mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EYou know, when we give Ministers discretion to do such stuff, it does imply a degree of, of course, trust in the Minister\u2019s judgment. And perhaps the current Minister in the chair is someone we would trust in that judgment. But what about the next Minister and the next Minister after that? We need to know what safeguards the Minister has in place around the exercise of what seems to be a discretion around the date of the consent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister could perhaps just talk a little bit about the safeguards that are there\u2014and perhaps they are there later in the bill. Of course, only having gotten it, you know, perhaps ready today as we all arrived back here, it\u2019s a little hard to know what\u2019s going on here, so just some advice on that. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00228199388a0bd74c0496c2b9b21c154c3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228199388a0bd74c0496c2b9b21c154c3f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to speak to clause 10 in Part 1 of the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. The Amendment Paper is amending \u201CSection 5 amended (Functions of Minister)\u201D\u2014we\u2019re on page 2 of the Amendment Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESection 5 is the amended functions of the Minister. What we have, through clause 10, is \u201CAfter clause 10(2) (page 7, after line 2), insert: (2A) After section 5(c), insert: (caa) to make decisions (with others) on whether to require outgoing guarantees and, if so, to determine what outgoing guarantees are appropriate:\u201D. So, although the bulk of ministerial discretion and decision-making powers are covered in Part 2 of this bill, what we can see here in clause 10, in Part 1 of the bill, under the functions of the Minister, is we are starting to see the introduction of these discretionary powers\u2014and even in this very short inclusion, around (2A)\u2014\u201C(caa) to make decisions (with others)\u201D. Which others? This is not spelt out. Who are the other people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe see, in other parts of the bill, that that\u2019s the Minister of Finance, but the Amendment Paper doesn\u2019t say \u201Cwith an other\u201D\u2014it says \u201Cwith others\u201D. So who else? It\u2019s plural. Who else is envisioned as being a decision maker in that amended clause, \u201Con whether to require outgoing guarantees and, if so, to determine what outgoing guarantees are appropriate:\u201D? I would seek some of the policy thought that the Minister can share with the committee that went into this clause 10(2A) amendment, around what were the criteria around that. We know that discretionary powers need to be a little bit more than the whim of a Minister. It\u2019s not a statutory decision that\u2019s being made as defined; it\u2019s a discretionary power that\u2019s being granted here. Surely the Minister has had some discussions around parameters, around criteria, and what will guide decision making\u2014what will be the principles that guide his decision making in this area? I look forward to the Minister elucidating further on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00223a3463f24eb2430ba5cd5874f06ce7dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a3463f24eb2430ba5cd5874f06ce7dc\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, thank you. Look, it\u2019s really a remarkably succinct response I offer. Answers will be revealed as we work in a methodical way through all parts of this Amendment Paper. It is probably superfluous at this stage to go into answers on both of those points when we will get to the necessary detail as we plough through the remainder of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00224e98005a79354371bedb89957f45f933\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e98005a79354371bedb89957f45f933\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I do just have a follow-up question for the Minister on that, given we are on Part 1, and we are asking questions about clause 10 of the bill. We will get to further parts of the bill at a later date, but given the short period of time that the House has had this bill, can the Minister please refer us to the clause where those parameters or criteria are defined, that we\u2019ll get to in subsequent parts of the bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00229d1da34e45ab4432b9821d189b62dcbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d1da34e45ab4432b9821d189b62dcbb\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. Related to this statement\u2014and noting, as my colleagues have said, that it is interesting to be looking at an Amendment Paper on a bill that\u2019s already been reported back\u2014the point that Dr Megan Woods appeared to be making that I think the Minister was responding to, but I\u2019m not sure, was the relationship with outgoing guarantees and when they are appropriate. I realise that in Part 2, there is a definition of an outgoing guarantee, but the question here is about the Minister\u2019s functions. So it is the Minister\u2019s function now to make decisions on whether to require outgoing guarantees or not, and this seems to be a very big power and a new power for the Minister to have. So it would be very useful for the Minister to comment on\u2014doesn\u2019t have to go on exactly about what outgoing guarantees are\u2014the nature of this new power and whether or not there are any constraints in Part 1 of the principal Act, the principal Act as amended by last time we were in the committee of the whole House, or this Amendment Paper. Are there constraints on those functions that he can point us to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00220aec28a727544c4caf689d8c62f31450\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220aec28a727544c4caf689d8c62f31450\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the Minister\u2019s position, but he\u2019s kind of just said, \u201CWell, trust me.\u201D\u2014\u201CTrust me.\u201D Perhaps we might have a little bit of concern about that, because the particular history suggests that things get changed around quite dramatically from time to time. It\u2019s a little tricky to just go with it, because we are dealing with an Act and then the bill which amends the Act, and now this Amendment Paper which amends the bill which amends the Act\u2014so there\u2019s the amendment to the amendment. It is actually complicated, and the speed with which we\u2019re having to deal with it does mean that we\u2019re going to have to do a little bit more than just take the Minister\u2019s word for it. All we\u2019ve asked for is which clauses. We don\u2019t need to debate them now, but if he could indicate those clauses, that would be very, very helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd7084df607a4f7a8e6c4bb3f717876e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd7084df607a4f7a8e6c4bb3f717876e\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m conscious that\u2014please pull me up if I\u2019ve raced ahead too far. What I said to the committee when I referred in my first contribution: sections on pages 10 and 11, essentially, provide the detail, and I accept, Madam Chair, by the time we get to those pages, we\u2019re probably not able, without the leave of the House, to come back to clause 10. But having been pulled up myself many times in this House for talking about the wrong part of the bill\u2014not this bill\u2014I want to be absolutely sure you don\u2019t chide me. Can I suggest, for ease of understanding, that elements of the reference in clause 10, where people may want to understand, well, what will the determination be based on\u2014I direct their attention to pages 10 and 11.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022180cd7711bf64387b94d1e0449644b4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022180cd7711bf64387b94d1e0449644b4a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m now going to go backwards and talk about clause 8 in Part 1 of the bill. Amendment Paper 343 deletes the new section 2C(1)(c) inserted by clause 8\u2014that\u2019s page 6, lines 14 to 20. So if we have a look at 2C(1)(c), that\u2019s in the \u201CDetermination of permit tier status\u201D, and this is a significant part of how the legislation will operate. So determination of permit tier status 2C(1)(c) is: \u201Cat any time that the permit is partially surrendered under section 40(2) if\u2014(i) the partial surrender results in the permit applying to an area not exceeding 50 continue continuous hectares; and (ii) the permit holder, in the application lodged under section 40(1)(a), states that the purpose of the application is to satisfy the requirements of a Tier 3 permit as set out in section 2B(2A).\u201D Now, according to the Amendment Paper, there is no replacement for what is being deleted in this section. So I just would like the Minister for Resources to explain to the committee, first of all, why that is being deleted, what the impact would be, and what the policy rationale is for the removal of that clause. Just to repeat, that\u2019s clause 8 of the Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022340cb1184dae4811b1fd31b3b36baa1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022340cb1184dae4811b1fd31b3b36baa1d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to add a little bit to what my colleague Megan Woods has talked about, and that is this Minister determining the tier status of a permit: \u201CThe Minister must determine the tier status of a permit\u201D\u2014if I can get that phrase out\u2014\u201C\u2026 on first granting the permit\u201D, and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBy deleting that clause determining the tier status of a permit, does that mean that the tier status of a permit is no longer determined anywhere? Is it just something that doesn\u2019t exist anymore? By deleting that, the Minister has left several unanswered questions about, obviously, what the tier status of a permit is, but is there a clause somewhere else in this Amendment Paper that actually does say how the tier status of a permit is to be determined? It says it is determined by the Minister\u2014this is in the amendment bill\u2014but is it now determined, perhaps, on a factual basis? Is there another way it\u2019s determined? Or is the idea of the tier status abandoned altogether? Or is there something in the original Act that does it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere is a lot of confusion around this particular clause, and it looks so innocuous in the Amendment Paper. It just says, \u201CIn clause 8, delete [this]\u201D, but, in actual fact, when we dig into it, it turns out that there is a wee bit more substance in it and a few unanswered questions there, in terms of what is actually going on with this deletion, what problem it was supposed to solve in the first place, but now, if other problems are introduced by the mere fact of the deletion, that\u2019s all getting a little bit complicated. But this is, indeed, as we said, going to be complicated, and we\u2019re just going to have to try to deal with it. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002205bb9b518cbc4eebae162b16fdf6d664\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205bb9b518cbc4eebae162b16fdf6d664\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. While the Minister for Resources prepares his thoughts to tell us why that part that clause is being deleted, what the policy rationale is that sat behind it, and how it is achieving the policy intent that he\u2019s told the House is the reason why he\u2019s bringing this Amendment Paper to the House in this highly unusual fashion in the way in which this bill is progressing, I\u2019d also like to know if there\u2019s a reason why there\u2019s nothing that it\u2019s being replaced with. To simply remove a chunk of an amended piece of legislation that\u2019s gone to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, that hearings have been held on, that submitters have had the chance to submit on\u2014I can understand sometimes that we need to have clauses of bills that need to be tweaked and fixed, and there might need to be the odd word changed, but to simply just remove quite a large portion of this clause of the bill is quite unusual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIf this was at select committee, Madam Chair, as you will know, there would be quite a discussion with committee members about whether or not that was the right thing to do, and the implications for further on in the bill. We know in these Part 1 bits, where you\u2019re doing things like setting up the functions of the Minister and determining the tier status of permits, that these have long flow-on effects into a piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI just want to hear from the Minister the why\u2014we\u2019ve already indicated and we\u2019re waiting for him to give us an explanation on why it was done\u2014but also further to that why it wasn\u2019t replaced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002229731196ce5b405f8f683b774b94e522\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229731196ce5b405f8f683b774b94e522\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I think it\u2019s important that I remind the committee that this bill not only deals with elements of the oil and gas industry but it also creates a new level of permissiveness for mining. This particular change gets rid of duplication. The power remains solely with the Minister in the event that a tier 2 permit, which is quite restrictive, might then be changed to a tier 3 permit, which, in the bill, is, essentially, a type of hobby mining. But it\u2019s propelled forward by a policy set of impulses that wants to see an acceleration of mining in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0c3623690864f08809d211c04a44ac9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0c3623690864f08809d211c04a44ac9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E It may just be that I haven\u2019t had the bill very long, but that didn\u2019t really inform me a great deal on what the policy intent was. So I\u2019d like the Minister to clarify, given the answers that he\u2019s just given, whether or not this only applies to hobby mining permits, as he indicated in the answer that he just gave, because I can\u2019t see anything in that \u201Cclause 8, delete new section 2C(1)(c)\u201D. New section 2C(1)(c) states: \u201Cat any time that the permit is partially surrendered under section 40(2)\u201D, because this is the determination of permit tier status. This clause in the amendment bill that the Amendment Paper is amending does not specify it\u2019s around hobby mining. So I\u2019d just like the Minister to clarify to the committee whether he is indeed informing us that this entire determination of permit tier status is confined to that narrow window.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3cb4d02b02c4f43b77d5fdab5056fc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3cb4d02b02c4f43b77d5fdab5056fc1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister has a way with words, but I just wonder if his way with words sometimes fails him. In particular, the Minister said\u2014and this has got me even more worried now\u2014that a lot of what was going on in here was \u201Cthe impulse to allow more mining\u201D. Now, I accept that the Minister was searching for a word, but \u201Cimpulse\u201D has got me deeply worried. I\u2019m really hoping, Minister, that, in actual fact, it\u2019s more than just an impulse here\u2014that it wasn\u2019t just that the Minister woke up one night and had a bright idea. If that was the case, Minister, I don\u2019t think we actually want to know! I am concerned now; in fact, I am just going to say, Minister, that perhaps every time the Minister speaks, I get a little more worried. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIn terms of this, Minister, I do want to understand now this tier 2 to tier 3, and he mentioned hobby mining. I think having mentioned hobby mining, I do want to understand from the Minister what is meant by \u201Chobby mining\u201D? Is this just some kid digging in the backyard? Or is it a farmer having a crack at what she thinks is some deposit on her farm that might actually hold minerals of some worth? What is actually the distinction between hobby mining and proper mining? That\u2019s a distinction that the Minister seems to have brought into this debate. Perhaps he didn\u2019t really mean to; perhaps it was just an \u201Cimpulse\u201D, but a little bit of clarification around that so that we can be sure that what is going on with this deletion is actually worth it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf656afe602248e2b61dee4e376399b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf656afe602248e2b61dee4e376399b3\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E I thank you, Madam Chair. My question to the Minister\u2014look, I think it\u2019s\u2014what are we? Part 1, clauses 8 to 10. Specifically, I want to drill into\u2014and that\u2019s a pun\u2014the trailing liability protections and the problem that the Minister is looking to solve and the confidence with which the Minister is looking to do something completely different to what we\u2019ve seen done in the past. I speak from experience, being one of three\u2014no, I think he\u2019s gone\u2014who live in Taranaki at the moment, and I have seen the knowledge on the ground being disregarded when we\u2019ve seen the likes of Tui and Tamarind and what that cost taxpayers. What should have been a $150 million clean-up then became a $443 million and then a two-hundred and something million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EMy question is: from those lessons learnt, is the Minister confident that the amendments will give him the discretion to protect and pre-empt when we see companies not only flipping shares\u2014not permits\u2014and then how sophisticated they are in avoiding decommissioning costs and the way that that affects the wider community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EA follow-up to that question is: if the Minister is confident\u2014having lived in Taranaki for most of my life\u2014what has happened differently in the same agency that existed when Tui and Tamarind were creating those problems? What capacity does he see surrounding the amendments to the bill that he\u2019s making so that not only can the sector get confidence but, obviously, that those who live around these companies and their activities have confidence that we\u2019re not going to have to foot another bill? Also, given that the Minister\u2019s amendments\u2014I\u2019m not sure that they\u2019re ambitious, but they\u2019re looking to solve a problem and a gap that\u2019s clearly been identified. What support does he see and what gear-up of that particular agency is there to ensure that what the gap is will never happen again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002221aac378cb4c47ecafaf42fe25b5b3e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221aac378cb4c47ecafaf42fe25b5b3e5\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Without delving into the innards of Part 2, I do respect the contribution that\u2019s been made, because the circumstances of the incident, the Tamarind brouhaha\u2014the answers don\u2019t just lie in this bill; they lie also in another piece of legislation administered by the Environmental Protection Authority. I don\u2019t want to cut across what the honourable member has raised\u2014but I\u2019ll address it when we get into the innards of Part 2\u2014but her point is extremely well made, that, sadly, the last regime spent $300 million more than should\u2019ve been necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f43eae84b7c5495d9c8298d70ec1e9d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f43eae84b7c5495d9c8298d70ec1e9d1\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Clause 10: after clause 10(2), there will be inserted \u201Cto make decisions (with others),\u201D\u2014it would be good to understand the definition of those \u201Cothers\u201D\u2014\u201Con whether to require outgoing guarantees and, if so, to determine what outgoing guarantees are appropriate:\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a question as to the discretion of the Minister here, in so far as one of the feedbacks that came in the supplementary analysis report was that it would be useful to have further analysis of the guardrails to support ministerial discretion, to address any risks or perception of risk of regulatory capture, and to ensure discretion is exercised in a consistent manner. It specifically referred to consultation on proposed changes, particularly with iwi and hap\u016B, but I wonder the extent to which the Minister has this discretion and the ability to make determinations about outgoing guarantees and what outgoing guarantees are appropriate. It just seems like a very broad ambit\u2014and understanding what the basis for those things will be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThere will be a strong enthusiasm\u2014and the Minister has clearly expressed a great enthusiasm for trying to bring back this dead industry that had its final nail in the coffin placed by the 2018 ban but was already well on its way to departure\u2014to not put in place barriers to that industry, to the extent that the Minister might be encouraged to not place burdensome or onerous expectations in this area on that industry. That would be a significant concern, given that where those guarantees were not appropriate, the cost would fall to the public purse. So I wonder if the Minister could elucidate us on the parameters around which that sort of discretion will be exercised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd7608114c284496b16b467d5995be94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd7608114c284496b16b467d5995be94\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m always trying to be useful. I thought it could be useful at this stage to remind the Minister for Resources of the outstanding questions that still haven\u2019t been addressed that had been put to him in the chair, given the unique nature of this committee stage with a bill being recommitted. We\u2019re still waiting to know which \u201Cothers\u201D in clause 10(2A) of Amendment Paper 343\u2014\u201Cothers\u201D plural, where in other parts of this Amendment Paper it only talks about the Minister of Finance. So who does he envision are the other people, and what is the policy intent behind that? Is it specified anywhere in the Act, or is that, again, just an impulse that the Minister will act on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EClause 8: we\u2019re still waiting to find out is this just confined to hobby mining, or is it indeed the whole gambit of things covered by the Crown Minerals Act? The Minister, in his answer, indicated that it was hobby mining. That\u2019s not my reading, but, as I said, I may well be wrong. We\u2019ve only had this bill for a very short period of time, so I would seek clarification from the Minister who has penned this Amendment Paper and brought it here. It is important that we understand the forensic detail and thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re also wanting to understand and we haven\u2019t had any answers from the Minister on is why it is that there is a clause that is being removed and not replaced with anything, that I asked the Minister of in new section 2C, which is what clause 8 of this bill does. So there are many, many unanswered questions that are sitting out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI have another one to add to the list, that we have in clause 10, amending section 5, which of course is the section of the Act which is the functions of the Minister. One of the things I\u2019d like the Minister to let us know: when considering those functions of the Minister\u2014and particularly the new clause 10(2A), inserted by Amendment Paper 343: \u201CAfter section 5(c), insert: (caa)\u201D\u2014we received advice in the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, the Minister received advice, everybody received advice that what was happening in terms of the reversal and the changes to the decommissioning regime, which is the subject of this Amendment Paper, would reverse the additional protections for some Taranaki conservation land, and iwi were concerned that this would undermine rights in existing Treaty settlements if mining is once again allowed on those tracts, or adjacent tracts, of land. So whether or not the undermining of Treaty settlements was something that the Minister considered when he was considering that clause 10 section of this bill, which are the functions of the Minister\u2014because that is the kind of thing that when a Minister is thinking about their functions, they do need to think broadly about those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00222e6f8f30b5014351b52cbdf90890ebbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e6f8f30b5014351b52cbdf90890ebbb\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, the word \u201Cothers\u201D obviously refers, as the Hon Megan Woods has already adverted to, to the Minister of Finance. Now, why would that be the case? Largely because there are liability questions at stake here, and the person ordinarily charged with having responsibility for managing what the Crown signs up to and its fiscal impact is the so-said Minister I just referred to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIn respect of clause 8, I repeat what I said: it avoids duplication, and when we get further down the track into Part 2, I\u2019ll be able to point to the necessary sections. I accept that the amendment bill has not been held particularly long, but as a community of parliamentarians, it\u2019s important that trust is exhibited. Yes, there will be large decisions to be made by Ministers, but that\u2019s what we are: we\u2019re public officials accountable for our decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022789513c435d74ee58323ff55c4046b5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022789513c435d74ee58323ff55c4046b5b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Look, first of all, thank you to the Minister for making an attempt at answering that question about \u201Cothers\u201D. But the Minister is someone who is known for his ability with language\u2014I think, someone who prides himself on his ability with language and of knowledge of how language works. I\u2019m just going to point out to the Minister that \u201Cothers\u201D is a plural.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223588a0c980f34b42a16cc2a8c7eae795\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right; words matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c76a297dcf864bc8816e30183f659c0d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Words matter. \u201COthers\u201D is a plural. The last time I looked, the \u201CMinister of Finance\u201D was a singular\u2014I won\u2019t say entity\u2014a singular person. So unless something changed about the nature of the Minister of Finance\u2014I mean, I\u2019m sorry, Minister, that is just not going to fly. It might need to say, \u201Cwith another\u201D, or something like that. I know it only seems minor, but words matter in law, and as soon as we\u2019re using a plural, we do need to worry about it. So perhaps there is someone in addition to the Minister of Finance who is going to be making that decision with the Minister; perhaps there is not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut if it is just one person, Minister, I\u2019m very, very happy to put together an Amendment Paper to the Amendment Paper to ensure to take that \u201Cs\u201D out. It would be an unusual thing for an Opposition Amendment Paper to be accepted for an Amendment Paper to a Government bill, but perhaps the Minister might be happy to do that. Alternatively, as the master of words that he is known as, perhaps he could let us know who the \u201Cother\u201D of these \u201Cothers\u201D is, other than the Minister of Finance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00222b90db03fb704e9e82a11fc2aacca245\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b90db03fb704e9e82a11fc2aacca245\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Listen, we are prosecuting this particular clause deeply because it has a very significant impact on an issue that we know is a big problem for this industry: decommissioning. Particularly as the industry is in its sunset era, it all the more becomes the concern that if the Minister\u2019s ambitions for attracting back the oil and gas industry fail, then we are going to be on the hook for the cost of decommissioning. Particularly, the companies, as we know and in the examples we\u2019ve been given, go belly-up, they haven\u2019t got the funds to deal with the mess they\u2019ve left behind, and the taxpayer is on the hook for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI would just really appreciate if the Minister could give us absolute clarity as to what advice he got on the perception of regulatory capture and the risks of that perception, with the combination of these two wordings that are achieved through this amendment to clause 10, whereby in section 5\u2014the functions of the Minister\u2014the duty to \u201Cattract permit applications, including by way of\u201D is associated with \u201Cby way of making decisions on whether to require outgoing guarantees\u201D. That seems to be a direct contradiction in the duty of the Minister responsible for protecting the common interest and the common good from the risks of decommissioning not being covered, in terms of its costs and in terms of its impact on people, on the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI would just really appreciate if the Minister could give us some clarity, given that in advice received, the risk of regulatory capture was specifically pointed out as something that should be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022022703f540004d4aae664d65394aed46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022022703f540004d4aae664d65394aed46\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I repeat again that the parameters within which a ministerial decision or a determination might be exercised will be dealt with when we get to Part 2. I have articulated to the Hon Dr Megan Woods the specific sections. The underlying question that is raised of a policy character, presumably, goes to the point: why have you posited with a politician holding a Crown warrant the responsibility for making these determinations, and could that person act in such a fashion that that person endangers the very things that people feel need to be managed risk-wise very, very fastidiously? I say once again that the essence of this bill is that the power will be with two Ministers. The parameters will be dealt with in Part 2, and I would urge members to race there as quickly as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbb1150d72874cd8a666d7b064d32b20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbb1150d72874cd8a666d7b064d32b20\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. We still have outstanding questions. The Minister has not told us whether or not the clause in this section, in terms of clause 8, section 2C, is just confined to hobby mining. He indicated it in an earlier contribution. We\u2019ve been asking whether that is the intent of this Amendment Paper that he has brought and whether indeed it is just confined to there. We\u2019re not even concerned who the second \u201Cother\u201D in the \u201Cothers\u201D is, in terms of the Minister of Finance\u2014we know that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to hear from the Minister in the chair whether or not he\u2019s going to accept the very kind offer of my colleague the Hon Deborah Russell to put forward an Amendment Paper to clear up that misunderstanding that seems to have creeped into the amendment to the amendment to the amendment in an effort to tidy up this bill, to specify that that would just be the Minister of Finance. So clause 10(2A) would then be: \u201CAfter section 5(c), insert: (caa) to make decisions with the Minister of Finance\u201D\u2014so replace \u201Cothers\u201D with \u201Cthe Minister of Finance\u201D. If the Minister is telling the House that is what it is, it is not what is indicated in the wording that is in the Amendment Paper in front of us. It\u2019s a plural; he\u2019s talking about a singular. So we would like to know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the things, as well as the Amendment Paper being presented to the House, was the annex to the regulatory impact statement to go along with this legislation. One of the things that I think is incredibly important\u2014we\u2019re only in Part 1. We\u2019re talking about the functions of the Minister. We\u2019re talking about the permit tiers\u2014very fundamental parts of the building blocks of our Crown Minerals Act (CMA). The annex to that regulatory impact statement makes the very important point that \u201CChanges to the Minerals Programme for Petroleum will need to be made. The Programmes are considered secondary legislation that interpret the CMA. The Programmes have specific consultation requirements, as set out in the CMA, including public notice and submission requirements. There is currently a process underway to update the Minerals Programme to align with changes being made through the Bill, as [with] \u2026 earlier legislative changes that have not yet been incorporated.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re in this very sticky situation that we\u2019ve got a clear as mud situation of what this Amendment Paper is actually doing, who is making the decisions, and what permits, what tiers it actually applies to. The Minister can\u2019t give us this clarity, and this is the very basis for secondary legislation and how that is going to be passed, so we\u2019re in a very serious and dire situation. The Minister doesn\u2019t seem to understand the Amendment Paper that he\u2019s brought to this House, or certainly can\u2019t articulate what it means to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe are waiting for the Minister to tell us some of the fundamental things that we need to proceed to Part 2 of this bill, where we can discuss in detail the criteria that the Minister may or may not use. The Minister tells us that we need to trust him and trust needs to be put in politicians to make decisions\u2014couldn\u2019t agree more. But part of that contract is that you have a Minister capable of coming to the House and answering some fundamental questions about the legislation they\u2019re bringing, and that\u2019s not what we\u2019re seeing here. We\u2019re having a Minister that thinks that hyperbole is a substitute for an answer to a straight question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe will keep asking these questions because they are important. I\u2019d also like to know, as well as who the \u201Cothers\u201D are, and whether or not it\u2019s just relating to hobby mining, whether or not the Minister considered whether this would be in contravention of Treaty settlements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00220ab98cd8b7374c8b8e1193ed6d29614c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ab98cd8b7374c8b8e1193ed6d29614c\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Despite my best efforts, the parent bill does not extirpate the reference to the Treaty of Waitangi, so that\u2019s a fact. Secondly, I repeat, in respect\u2014clause 8 takes out a duplication. The original contribution pertained to what we are calling tier 3 hobby entitlements for mining. It became evident in the 2021 legislation\u2014just remember who was the Minister in 2021\u2014there already existed an entitlement, and we are taking this route because it built on something that someone before me had already put in the law. That\u2019s why we call it duplication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00229fca16b978484dac9349a86ae0a03522\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fca16b978484dac9349a86ae0a03522\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the Minister has told us that this is a duplication\u2014a duplication of what? I mean, this is the difficulty. We\u2019re just left with a deletion here and we don\u2019t have a detailed, clause-by-clause analysis which could perhaps have been helpful. We just don\u2019t have anything much to go on except what the Minister can tell us. So he\u2019s asserted that clause 8, deleting new section 2C(1)(c), removes a duplication, but a duplication of what? And where can we check the particular duplication? Because we would like to see\u2014he\u2019s asserted this, could he please tell us exactly where that duplication is so that we can be sure that taking this out does in fact eliminate a duplication?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002281c4927a25e743d29510e09db9463057\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281c4927a25e743d29510e09db9463057\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E OK. I will repeat it again very slowly. In the parent piece of legislation exists section 2. That section was in the 2021 legislation. It already gives enough authority for the necessary changes, if necessary, to be made in terms of a tier 1, 2, or 3 permit needing to be changed. When the bill was first introduced, it introduced\u2014with a specific reference to\u2014hobby mining, which is tier 3. We have now worked out and decided, because of the existing provision entered into the law in the 2021 legislation, it\u2019s now unnecessary, because it represents a duplication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EFor fear of trivialising the House\u2019s time, this is the fifth attempt that I\u2019ve had to explain something that was passed by a Minister prior to my arrival.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d256b337e38a40499f909d956542c59d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d256b337e38a40499f909d956542c59d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister for clearing it up. It wasn\u2019t that hard; we could have got there sooner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Treaty, the Minister, in his last contribution, talked about the Treaty settlements. What I want to know from the Minister is what advice he received around these changes, and, given that there has not been consultation with iwi on this Amendment Paper 343, whether this is undermining rights in existing Treaty settlements. We know, and the updated regulatory impact statement makes it very clear, that the Minister had his officials\u2014and we\u2019ll come to this more fully later\u2014talking extensively with the oil and gas industry, but there was no consultation on the Amendment Paper with the iwi who were concerned. So I ask whether he\u2019s had advice on whether or not this Amendment Paper could undermine the rights in existing Treaty settlements, bearing in mind that this was part of the initial advice that was provided with the original Crown Minerals Amendment Bill\u2014the need to consult with iwi\u2014because of those Treaty settlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002264395c1882f145efb43ca96f53467c1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264395c1882f145efb43ca96f53467c1a\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E OK, getting very good at this repetitive approach. The parent legislation contains a reference to the Treaty of Waitangi. It also enables engagement, as the member has said, between the different tangata whenua communities. They have been engaged with in relation to the parent bill, and, as I\u2019ve said, that bill does not contain a deletion of the Treaty of Waitangi reference, so in the future, the engagement will happen. This highly technical matter was not the subject of consultation in a detailed way. It was dealt with with a great deal of confidentiality. In terms of providing a M\u0101ori dimension, I interviewed myself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf417d9d369c40638f0ff06d384bf109\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf417d9d369c40638f0ff06d384bf109\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very serious issue that I think the committee does need some more detail on from the Minister for Resources. We have an amendment bill that he tells us was consulted on in a very confidential manner. Well, the committee of the whole House will be wanting a list of who it was that was consulted with. But whether or not it\u2019s in the parent bill, what we\u2019re debating here today is Amendment Paper 343, and the Minister\u2019s own documents that have been released with the bill and his officials\u2019 documents that have been released with the bill make it patently clear that iwi and hap\u016B were not consulted on this Amendment Paper. So the question becomes whether or not the Amendment Paper that is before the committee is an undermining of those Treaty settlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not about the parent bill, and it\u2019s not about the original bill that was brought before the House, which was consulted on, but the point of the matter that the Minister needs to answer is whether or not the Amendment Paper that we are voting on today constitutes a contravention of the Treaty settlements. The Minister can\u2019t just skirt around that. It\u2019s a serious issue that the House deserves an answer to, because if we were at select committee and this bill was going through its normal process, Ministers can\u2019t just circumvent scrutiny of their legislation by withdrawing a bill at third reading and dropping an Amendment Paper and not expect there to be scrutiny in the committee of the whole House. This is a question the House needs and deserves an answer to: does the lack of iwi consultation on this Amendment Paper constitute an undermining of the Treaty settlements in that area? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00220b9dae2a4a1c42b8bfa27e8b3f7eb731\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b9dae2a4a1c42b8bfa27e8b3f7eb731\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I propose that the debate on this motion now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022d166f07a36fd46489b40cb116fcfd1e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d166f07a36fd46489b40cb116fcfd1e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I really want to dig into these tiers now. I\u2019m sorry; I apologise for having my laptop on my desk, but I\u2019ve used it to pull up the Crown Minerals Act. I\u2019ve gone back to section 2C because that\u2019s where\u2014I shouldn\u2019t say damage because that\u2019s not the right thing. So the bill amended 2C, but now Amendment Paper 343 to the bill takes the new 2C out, and that means that the original 2C stands\u2014is that the case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9ec5570083e4a3e9a7945839e982f5f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: What page are you on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d16fd091a5b4011b71c2a3e95201bd5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: The Crown Minerals Amendment Bill replaces section 2C\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260ee7799d8214047ae8ebb544517358f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but what page are you referring to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f9ecdd83c0a47f28b7dd6cc8ec39368\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019m sorry\u2014on page 6 of the bill. It\u2019s clause 8 of the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e455d733efb40619da6270a876c074d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yeah, cool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274324d4bf50c4060aa8659bfb024c1ef\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s a 2C sitting in the Act; clause 8 of the bill replaces 2C. Clause 8 of the Amendment Paper deletes new section 2C(1)(c). So we\u2019re taking out that bit. Oh, it only takes out section 2C(1)(c)\u2014this is the complication with having something delivered at\u2014which is on the partial surrenders and so on like that. What I\u2019m finding complicated here is the stuff around tier 3 permits. The tier 3 permits are the new permits. So they\u2019re brought in by this bill; they\u2019re new to the Act, and they seem to be this area which is less than 50 hectares. That\u2019s sitting in the bill itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sorry, Minister. I know that it\u2019s clear and easy in your mind, but this has been dumped on us at the last moment, and we are genuinely trying to sort our way through this to understand what is going on here and why you\u2019ve put the new 2C in and now you\u2019ve taken the new 2C out. We just don\u2019t quite get it, and you said you\u2019ve explained it clearly. I\u2019m just going to assert that we are doing our best to follow this and we would really like\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229794b72a5fac4ab0871ea4bc27202cb8\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got three degrees. You must understand it by now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6b9f6f359354bfaa78aaaff4565698a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, take a call\u2014take a call. So I would like to hear from the Minister on that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8e5ba023e004477bbda75ec8a48336b\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d81506627bef442c8226eaaf0ab744b6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Is that a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c76df420eb94a64a5cee99dc496000c\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m taking a call, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e07cd21a6a074790aaa91fc00c160dca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Was the member continuing to speak?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a57ddf649944409c80d79056ce4814a4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: I was finished, yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022198d8a484b9342fbaaf9999967e185a0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: If you\u2019re not taking a point of order, continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00224a9ab3beb93d4dbaad1afc61dca9517b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a9ab3beb93d4dbaad1afc61dca9517b\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I want us to contemplate a situation where an Act is already in existence. That Act has a section 2C. That Act was delivered under the stewardship of a Minister in 2021, and it had some redeeming features in it, right\u2014modest. Then\u2014because the air is thick with redundancy, and these contributions are proving the air is right\u2014the amendment bill was introduced with an additional clause. It has now occurred to the Government that that additional clause is redundant; therefore, it has been removed, but section 2C, delivered in 2021, still stands, and it addresses the issues pertaining to the transition of various mining entitlements. I really can\u2019t say much more, and I\u2019m quite confident that the former Minister, having realised that she\u2019s the architect of this, now realises what I\u2019m talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbb2417f26e2459c80f3f62848c387e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbb2417f26e2459c80f3f62848c387e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. I want to move on to a new clause of Part 1, and that is clause 9, which inserts new section 2D(3) into the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. What this does is it, in clause 9(2), new section 2D(3)(a), replaces \u201Cthe day after the date of the notification\u201D\u2014and that\u2019s on page 6\u2014with \u201Cthe date of the notification\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI want to know what the rationale for changing it to the day of the notification from the day after. When we come to the commencement, there are actually some serious and quite technical questions that we\u2019ll ask, at the appropriate time, around the use of moving from a statutory start date to a statutory instrument - driven start date. But why is it, in clause 9 of that amendment bill, \u201Cthe date of the notification\u201D rather than \u201Cthe day after\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u002279ec22a197344cf48b0f212752cecb24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279ec22a197344cf48b0f212752cecb24\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf86c923e0b04fc68a2ab2edd6698b56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf86c923e0b04fc68a2ab2edd6698b56\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, with all due respect, there\u2019s still a number of questions on Part 1 that the Minister for Resources hasn\u2019t been able to answer and that we\u2019re still waiting for answers to. I think that given the nature of the way in which this Minister is choosing to legislate, with a very atypical process of what has happened in terms of the recalling of this bill from its third reading, and with a very substantial Amendment Paper being put back to the committee of the whole House and not having it go through a select committee phase, it is our job, as parliamentarians, to scrutinise this Amendment Paper 343 in the committee of the whole House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt is also the job of the Minister to answer the questions. As I have pointed out in previous contributions, the fact is that what is in this bill actually becomes really important in terms of the secondary legislation in that the minerals programme for petroleum is a piece of secondary legislation that is drawn from interpretations of this Act. The regulatory impact statement that the Minister himself has had tabled in the committee here tells us that they\u2019re considering this Amendment Paper. We still have unanswered questions on the very fundamentals of this bill, so I think it would be useful for the House and for the passage of good legislation for the Minister to be able to explain his own legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0815950b2cc40e7aa6706b2ebc411ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0815950b2cc40e7aa6706b2ebc411ff\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. Sorry to do this. I\u2019m just seeking a bit of clarification on how debate on this Amendment Paper goes. We have been concentrating on the clauses in the Amendment Paper that relate to the Part 1. Do we then move a separate closure motion for just those clauses, or how does it work? Because I\u2019m concerned that if we accept a closure motion now, it closes the debate on the entire Amendment Paper, not just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224d3c53f8e5b4f7ebb257a319a4f5170\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014there is Part 2 and Part 3 to go to as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e43c1bf4651a460489e37919aa052ab2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Right\u2014OK. So in that case, the motion that is on the floor now is just relating to the clauses relating to Part 1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220efb7defb11e4d38b3d834fdd5153e87\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0004dc97a0e4f1aa12169b7bc67d8ad\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: OK\u2014thank you. I appreciate that clarification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff956b4c584c4f8398746b141473eae0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff956b4c584c4f8398746b141473eae0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Let me repeat again: this is the debate on amendments to clauses 5, 8, 9, and 10, set out on Amendment Paper 343, and a couple of other debates on that. Just to note, there are other opportunities to ask other questions in Part 2 and Part 3, and, actually, some of those questions might be relevant to those particular parts there as well. We are keeping an eye on relevance and repetition. Acknowledging members have now moved on to clause 9, which, as far as I understand, is new, we are looking for new material. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd4ce89f0c464020ad016af9082a937a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd4ce89f0c464020ad016af9082a937a\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223c76c5ba47b94f2fb4027402e8828d3b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6995fce9e8848eb9ae74e6366b92cf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6995fce9e8848eb9ae74e6366b92cf0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 343 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e1068cc5ae2b4a688c4e447f9f910555\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220a14a2fdbb5c4da6b25b8601e9f04310\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a14a2fdbb5c4da6b25b8601e9f04310\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendments are agreed to; therefore, Part 1 as amended stands part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a94553ddd1d545109af1c98df71f343b\u0022\u003EAmendments to Part 2 set out on Amendment Paper 343\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc3ffd7f83f0424cbad7660ade39d1e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc3ffd7f83f0424cbad7660ade39d1e3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2. This is the debate on\u2014[Interruption] Please listen carefully so you can focus your contributions\u2014amendments to clauses 25, new clause 26A to 26C, 27, 28, and new clause 29A, as set out on Amendment Paper 343. The question is the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2, set out on Amendment Paper 343, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002271aca74507bf4df2b526c1d9eb173178\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271aca74507bf4df2b526c1d9eb173178\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to start with a contribution on Part 2 on the new clause 26A, \u201CSection 41 amended (Transfer of interest in permit)\u201D, on Amendment Paper 343. Subclause (1) says, \u201CAfter section 41(6), insert:\u201D new section 41(6A). This is going to be quite a short question, but I\u2019ve heard previous speakers mentioning that the Minister for Resources has a particular way with words, and so I just wanted to get a clarification from the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn this, we are looking at a conditional sentence, so we are looking at an \u201Cif\u201D and \u201Cthen\u201D sentence. The \u201Cif the Ministers require an outgoing guarantee under section 41I,\u201D\u2014that\u2019s the protasis of a conditional sentence. However, the apodosis of a conditional sentence is missing here. What I\u2019m not seeing is where the \u201Cthen\u201D part of this sentence is. At this stage, if we\u2019re saying that if the Ministers require an outgoing guarantee under section 41I, an outgoing guarantee that the Ministers consider to be appropriate\u2014i.e., let\u2019s say an outgoing guarantee\u2014must have been provided in accordance with that requirement. Does that mean that if the Ministers require an outgoing guarantee, then an outgoing guarantee must have been provided already, before the Ministers required it? What we\u2019re also seeing here is that it is using \u201Crequire\u201D as a simple present, but it is immediately followed by a conditional, which is present perfect, but the present perfect seems to precede the simple present. It does create an anachronistic sentence in this case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI\u2019m assuming that the Minister means that if an outgoing guarantee is required, that should be provided\u2014am I getting that correct? But that\u2019s not how that is currently worded, so I just wanted to get clarification from the Minister on where the apodosis of this conditional sentence starts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022721b4253bdbb425e82c7e493915400c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022721b4253bdbb425e82c7e493915400c8\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E OK, for ease of comprehension, I direct the member to the actual words that he\u2019s quoted. I\u2019m on page 2, at clause 25(1A): \u201C\u00A0\u2018section 41A(7)\u2019 with \u2018sections 41AG(8) or 41A(6)\u2019.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EIf the member races ahead, he will see, on page 678, the wording\u2014why does that wording exist? It exists to cope with transfers or revocations. Why is it included? It deals with a temporal issue, the period of time or grace where either a revocation or a transfer takes place, or, indeed, what money is involved. So I strongly urge the Green Party member, rather than randomly quoting scattered parts of the alphabet, to actually go to the page, and the answers are laid out there in comprehensible English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00228a1aef2d85bf4d3cab05cbcf38769d14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a1aef2d85bf4d3cab05cbcf38769d14\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. So jumping a little bit ahead, then, and speaking in more generic terms, what I\u2019m interested in is the fundamental change here. The bill tells us\u2014the explanatory note\u2014that whereas the previous amendment let you trail back, or have discretion to trail back, to previous permit holders, the Minister\u2019s amendment is changing their ability to go back in time to previous holders of the permit. The hook to do that\u2014the temporal nature\u2014is that any current permit holder has to get the permission of the Ministers\u2014being the Minister and the Minister of Finance\u2014before they are able to on-sell that permit or licence. I\u2019d like the Minister to confirm that that is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen all of the amendment bill also appears to be about decommissioning, so the decommissioning liabilities. It doesn\u2019t appear to be\u2014and again, this is a question for the Minister\u2014about consent requirements and upholding the operational parameters that will have been set for these permit holders. My question is: does this Amendment Paper have anything to do with the conditions that permit holders have to meet that aren\u2019t decommissioning? Because my understanding is that, normally, you have bonds that address both the \u201CAre you following through with all your consenting requirements?\u201D, and then a separate bond, or some similar financial instrument, for the payment of the decommissioning. So those are my questions there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been looking at page 10 of the amendment, and that is the new section 41F that talks about this outgoing guarantee and, I think, the mechanism whereby a permit holder might be on-selling. That goes back to the change to clause 27, so that\u2019s at page 6 of the amendment, which is when the \u201CMinister may consent to change of control of permit operator\u201D, and then there\u2019s a new section inserted after section 41AE(1)(a), a new paragraph (aa): \u201Cif the Ministers require an outgoing guarantee under section 41I, an outgoing guarantee that the Minister considers to be appropriate has been provided\u201D. So this language looks very open\u2014and maybe that\u2019s the Minister\u2019s earlier point, to trust the Minister. But if the Minister could comment on the width of that\u2014and I acknowledge that there are further sections that are at pages 11 and 12 of the amendment that do give some parameters, but they don\u2019t seem to be vast, and it does seem to be that there\u2019s a lot of discretion in these new provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022718ee48975c54a22a7b7168f9de0c450\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022718ee48975c54a22a7b7168f9de0c450\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Obviously, for those of you who have the actual Act on your computer, and if we look at the specific wording on page 2, clause 25, in section 39 as amended\u2014what does section 39 do? In the magnum opus Act, section 39 pertains to the revocation or the transfer of entitlements to the Minister. It contemplates a situation where a holder is about to suffer the loss of an entitlement. We have had a situation where these things have, from time to time, been triggered because of non-payment. We have had a period of 90 days in section 39 within the parent Act. What this does is prevent any gaming, any protraction of honouring the fiscal obligation to the Crown. It gets rid of the 90-day period, it retains a 40-day period, and it tightens up the conduct and makes it very clear what the obligations are. It also provides for such a revocation to be reported to the Registrar-General of Land, and also, where the land qualifies as ture whenua land, a notice is also sent to the M\u0101ori Land Court. This is how this part of section 39 has been improved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t mean any disrespect. I am being somewhat laborious because I take on board what the Opposition members have said. It\u2019s very finicky and they haven\u2019t had the full amount of time. But I have to say: we are amending the 2021 legislation and we\u2019re also improving the contribution that this Minister brought forward. We have the expert of the 2021 legislation sitting there, so I shouldn\u2019t need to remind the architect of her work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00227c9f1d98bac14d249f20f18fa8a6254c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c9f1d98bac14d249f20f18fa8a6254c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Of course, the whole, sole purpose of the 2021 legislation that the Minister has talked about in his contribution was to protect the New Zealand taxpayer. As I said in an earlier contribution, it wasn\u2019t from a theoretical risk; it was a real risk that previous National Governments had left New Zealand exposed to, and that our Government fixed when we were in Government. It cost a lot to clean up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we did\u2014there was liability if a permit holder failed to decommission or meet the cost of the decommissioning either directly or through a financial security, and the Act placed a liability on all former permit holders. This was about protecting New Zealand taxpayers from having to pick up the tab from global multinationals that decided to just exit New Zealand and not pay for the cost of their own decommissioning and clean up after themselves. As a Government, we could not tolerate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we had then is the Minister we had in the chair in September 2024 brought an amendment bill that watered down those protections and altered the trailing liability protections in the decommissioning regime with his amendment legislation. We then had an Amendment Paper that proposed to extend training liability to a wider range of people, beyond existing and previous permit holders, by adding various persons having a controlled interest in a body corporate to the list of persons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Amendment Paper that we are debating today wipes both the bill the Minister brought and the Amendment Paper that was put up and replaces it with a new Amendment Paper. So we are in a somewhat absurd situation of the amendment to the amendment to the amendment and trying to trace our way back through that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt is in this Part 2, it is in these clauses 25, 26A, 26C, 27, 28, and 29A, that we really have the guts of this legislation, of what this amendment is trying to achieve. That is about bowing down to the oil and gas industry and further watering down the liability that they will need to shoulder for doing business in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, New Zealand is not an outlier for saying to oil and gas companies that if you operate in our jurisdiction, we\u2019re going to protect our taxpayers, we\u2019re going to protect the people who live in our country, from cleaning up after you. But what we have is a Government who thinks that it\u2019s a good idea to actually not put the interest of New Zealanders first but put the interests of the oil and gas companies at the forefront.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn the Annex to the Regulatory Impact Statement: Amendments to the Crown Minerals Act 1991 relating to petroleum exploration and mining that has been tabled with this Amendment Paper that is in there, it states that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) had several meetings with key stakeholders from December 2024 to March 2025 to hear their concerns, and has shared, in confidence, an outline option of option 4. So the paper, which I\u2019ll come back to when we\u2019re talking about the policy that sits behind these provisions that we\u2019re debating in Part 2 of the Amendment Paper\u2014but this regulatory impact statement tells us that the Minister had his officials sharing with some people what the options would be. What I\u2019d like to know from the Minister is who were the options shared with? Who was privy to those confidential discussions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe know from the regulatory impact statement that has been provided that iwi certainly weren\u2019t. In fact, despite there being Treaty settlement obligations to consult with iwi, they just were ignored when it came to this. But I\u2019d like to know, for example: were lawyers for climate change consulted? They certainly submitted on the previous bill and are experts in many of these areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister needs to tell the committee\u2014if this was a select committee process, we\u2019d know who was being consulted with. It would be open, it would be transparent, there\u2019d be a website, people could see the submissions, they could tune in, they could watch the submissions, and people would know what was being discussed. But what we see in this regulatory impact statement is that MBIE has engaged with these key stakeholders\u2014who were the key stakeholders?\u2014who had voiced a strong opposition to the bill. They didn\u2019t manage to get the changes at select committee. They kept on going, and the Minister sent his officials off to consult with them. So who were these people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThey raised two primary issues: \u201CExtending liability to all persons with controlling interest \u2018pierces the corporate veil\u2019 \u201D, is what the regulatory impact statement tells us, \u201Cin a way which they consider undermines the foundation of the Companies Act 1993 and common business practices\u201D. What it doesn\u2019t talk about is whether the Minister instructed his officials to go and talk to groups who had submitted, who had New Zealanders\u2019 interests at their heart\u2014the taxpayers of New Zealand, and the protections that have been put in place for those people. Instead, the Minister was more interested that his officials go off and talk to those who had concerns about \u201Cpiercing the corporate veil\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt also went on to say that the concern of the \u201CImposition of liability on all exiting and existing persons a with controlling interest is a statutory overreach\u201D. Well, on this side of the House, we call that standing up for New Zealanders and protecting New Zealanders from the liability of oil and gas companies just leaving the country and leaving New Zealanders with the tab to clean up after them. But this is the priority of this Minister; this is the priority of this Government. They\u2019re showing very clearly where they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe would like to know, and this committee deserves to know, who were these key stakeholders that were shared with the different options that were there\u2014that they shared in confidence an outline of option 4, and who else was privy to those confidential sharing of the various options that were there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022852c3dd662e14ca8b907d3c3ce693d51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022852c3dd662e14ca8b907d3c3ce693d51\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I do want to add some force to my colleague the Hon Dr Megan Woods\u2019 speech just now, because I\u2019ve picked up the supplementary analysis report dated 16 June 2025, so the most recent analysis, and, well, there\u2019s some pretty telling lines in it, and they\u2019re rather scary. I\u2019m looking at page 5 of this, right down the bottom: key stakeholders, consultation from January 2025. Flicking over on to page 6 of that, it says, \u201CThe sector has been clear that their preference is for no trailing liability in the [Crown Minerals Act].\u201D Well, no kidding. Like, of course they don\u2019t want the liability. Of course they\u2019d like to just, you know, make a mess and walk right away. Then it goes on, \u201CThey consider it adds significant costs\u201D\u2014well, those are costs that will be borne by the New Zealand taxpayer if the members of this industry don\u2019t bear the cost themselves\u2014\u201Cand [it] reduces the likelihood new entrants will come into the New Zealand market.\u201D But oil and gas is a dying industry anyway. You know, it\u2019s on the way out. I don\u2019t think the new entrants are coming here, and they weren\u2019t coming here a few years ago. They\u2019re certainly not coming now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThen here\u2019s another telling line: \u201CDespite this position, those consulted preferred Ministerial discretion to the current Act and approach in the Bill.\u201D In other words, these shadowy participants in the oil and gas industry\u2014a dying industry\u2014who we don\u2019t know who they are, much prefer to be able to lobby a Minister and get that Minister to apply ministerial discretion instead of to go through some pretty clearly set out steps in legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThis kind of stinks. It actually stinks. You know, does something pass the sniff test? Well, this does not. I think one of the only ways for it to get to pass the sniff test will be if the Minister can tell us exactly who he was consulting with. We don\u2019t know\u2014just that they were participants in the oil and gas industry. And we do know that ordinary New Zealanders have not been consulted, iwi have not been consulted. So this is really worrying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe next line says, \u201CTargeted consultation was limited to those directly impacted by the proposed change,\u201D. Well, I propose that the New Zealand taxpayers, who have to pick up the tab when these guys just skate off into the never-never and ignore their liabilities\u2014we are directly affected by this too. Why was there not much wider consultation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo to sum this up: it stinks, and the only way to clear this stink up is for us to know who was consulted with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00222e0269de092b4424b1623b536f6baea0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e0269de092b4424b1623b536f6baea0\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. You know, gas doesn\u2019t have an aroma; they have to add one to it so that it doesn\u2019t kill us all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de268a523a104b4e9ec04bf2bb2c881a\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Indigenous gas is the best gas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226448665400cd45efbcd0c00088691094\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: And \u201Cindigenous gas\u201D\u2014really? Really? That\u2019s such a cooked-up concept.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022606e42c8d10f475d8efdde3d1d2e6a34\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: What do you call it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022422eaeafe4d34c10bf2bab4ec9f0b0b9\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Fossil gas is what you\u2019re talking about, and it is a dying industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI want to speak to clause 26B, replacing section 41AA. I was so excited to ask this question, and I tried to make it my first question today, but we\u2019re there now\u2014we\u2019re there now. I want to, specifically\u2014there\u2019s other parts to this clause that deserve some prosecution, but I\u2019m going to jump down to new section 41AA, on page 3 of Amendment Paper 343. That is new section 41AA(1): \u201Coutgoing person means any of the following: (a) a person who ceases to have a controlling interest in a body corporate that is undergoing a change of control:\u201D\u2014that\u2019s logical; that makes sense\u2014\u201C(b)\u00A0a person who ceases to have all or part of an interest in a body corporate that is undergoing a change of control that results in another person acquiring a controlling interest in that body corporate:\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ELook, acknowledging the exceeding complexity of these corporate structures, which, let\u2019s be honest, are designed very often to avoid the liability of those corporate interests\u2014so getting this stuff right is important, because these companies, as my colleague just prior articulated, would like to not have any trailing liability; they would like to avoid liability for the mess that they leave behind, of course, just as they would like to avoid liability for climate change, which is a consequence of their whole industry. Paragraph (b) says \u201Ca person who ceases to have all or part of an interest\u201D. Paragraph (c) also says \u201Ca person who transfers all or part of their participating interest in a permit or licence for petroleum, or transfers their licence for petroleum, to another person\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: does the definition of an \u201Coutgoing person\u201D include those who might have ceased only part of an interest in a body corporate, or part of their participating interest in a permit or licence for petroleum? Can the Minister explain why a person who has only ceased part of an interest in a permit or licence is still captured as an outgoing person, even if they were to retain a significant commercial stake? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022754962b806d84c8f9dc236f8123cd0c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022754962b806d84c8f9dc236f8123cd0c9\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Going back to my question\u2014and I think the Minister answered part of it; I\u2019m not entirely sure. He kept telling me to go back to the primary piece of legislation, which\u2014obviously, there are a lot of bits of paper to look at here. But my question was around: those outgoing guarantees clauses just seem to be about decommissioning, and I was asking about the ongoing permits and the conditions associated with those. I think he referred to \u201Cclause\u00A039\u201D\u2014but I think he might have meant \u201Csection 39\u201D, and I\u2019d like that confirmed\u2014of the primary legislation, which is about when the Minister can revoke a permit. At page 8, there is reference to section 39, and there\u2019s a change here on whether or not\u2014or there\u2019s a reference to section\u00A039. So it says, \u201CThe Minister may revoke the permit in accordance with the procedure set out in section 39\u201D\u2014which is of the principal Act\u2014\u201Cif (a) subsection (1) is contravened; or (b) the Minister is not satisfied that, following the change of control, the permit holder has the financial capability to meet its obligations \u2026 or (c) in the case of a change of control of a permit participant that is a permit operator, the Minister is not satisfied that, following the change of control, the permit holder has the technical capacity to meet its obligations under the permit.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo my question, then, in relation to the Minister\u2019s answer, is: what is the relationship between section 39 and being able to revoke a permit, and the next provisions that are related to decommissioning? What is the relationship between the permits and the operation and the decommissioning? If he could explain that, that would be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff129a5585b147c1a696bb8f06647347\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Can you just say that again? Sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221aac8c09ab4436f88167e4c44ca2dcb\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. The Minister, when he was answering my last series of questions, I think he referred to section 39 of the primary legislation. I think he said it was \u201Cclause 39\u201D, though, so I was looking around for it, and I think he was referring to section 39, because that is about revoking permits. My question is: what is the link between the financial instruments and the controls that the Minister will have over both the ongoing conditions around the permit and, separately, the decommissioning of the infrastructure? How do those two relate and what is this amendment to the amendment bill doing to that relationship?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022777d2b4fba68490cb801181d55f74a49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022777d2b4fba68490cb801181d55f74a49\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E For members of the committee, I\u2019m on page\u00A09. We\u2019re still on Part 2. Please don\u2019t imagine that I\u2019m not treating this seriously. I\u2019m on new section\u00A041E. The Labour member is absolutely correct: the authority now rests with the Minister. This section, if I understand her question correctly, identifies the nature of the guarantee, and when we go over the page and then we go to new section 41F, when someone does move on, what exactly can the Minister impose upon them as a trailing responsibility liability. That, in contrast to the old regime\u2014and I\u2019m not going to refer, because there\u2019s no profit in it, to the contributions earlier about who we were talking to, because I can\u2019t see what section in Part 2 those remarks actually relate to. So if I come back to new section 41F, \u201CMinisters must consider outgoing guarantee: permits and licences for petroleum\u201D, obviously, the Minister and the Minister of Finance, or the Minister of Finance, may delegate in the unlikely event they\u2019re conflicted or someone\u2019s more appropriate to undertake that issue. I presume that\u2019s where you get the term \u201Cothers\u201D, which we\u2019ve already spoken to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESo a question was raised: what part of the infrastructure is going to be actually covered where decommissioning obligations can be enforced against someone who is no longer directly involved in running that business? I direct your attention to new section 41F(3)(b)(i): \u201Cthe petroleum infrastructure and wells were, at the time of the relevant transaction, in place or used for the purposes of carrying out\u201D. A good point was made earlier: is this going to be as thorough or as exacting as what the former Minister for Resources talked to? I hope not. That was a gross overreaction. It was something, in my view, as the surprisingly sensible remark from the M\u0101ori Party\u2014I\u2019ll have to bottle that sort of lightning in a bottle. So that gives you an indication as to what needs to be considered, what is the criteria, which I think I understand that to be the essence of the question from the last contributor, the Hon Rachel Brooking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002222b697762287411f9fac623edd4ddce6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222b697762287411f9fac623edd4ddce6\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I actually just have two very short questions. I think, in terms of what the Minister is talking about in reference to Part 2\u2014I think it\u2019s page 10, new clause 29A, which is inserting new section 41F(1). It perfectly captures the previous question around the fact that the Minister of Finance, as far as we believe in terms of our understanding, is singular. Therefore, the Minister has accurately pointed out that new section 41F is in relation to clause 10. But I think the Minister hasn\u2019t answered the question of who those \u201Cothers\u201D are. Is there another Minister beyond the Minister of Finance? That \u201Cother\u201D doesn\u2019t include the responsible Minister, because the responsible Minister is stated earlier in that clause. So that\u2019s the first question. I think the Minister has very accurately pointed out my colleagues\u2014both the Hon Dr Megan Woods and the Hon Dr Deborah Russell\u2014have been asking consistently on who that other is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe second question is in terms of what the Minister mentioned before around the policy statement. I think it is important for the Minister to elucidate the committee in terms of some of these consultation processes and who the Minister is consulting with, because, again, we are seeing this for the first time and we have no idea. As part of this committee, we would like to trust in the Minister, but it is also the role and the job of this Parliament and as the legislature to ask these sorts of questions of the executive. So we do understand where the Minister\u2019s coming from as a member of the executive. The Minister has also shown a level of appreciation for the way that us as the legislature are also scrutinising this particular amendment. But the reason I mentioned the part about who the Minister is consulting with\u2014and I\u2019m looking at page 3 of the supplementary analysis paper report\u2014is the fact that when we are looking at something like this, there is the opportunity and the potential risk of judicial review. I think that is something that we haven\u2019t heard from the Minister in terms of what would then be the additional risks of the judicial review as a way of maybe the opaque nature of the way the consultation has been conducted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c22ebab5cecd450fadc1fdcbc21830ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c22ebab5cecd450fadc1fdcbc21830ba\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E OK, I\u2019m about to put a stone on my tongue, but I want to respond in an instructive way to what I understand the member to be referring to. Can we please go to new section 41F(1)(a) and (b), in new clause 29A. Can we contemplate a situation where a party has done a transaction and party B now is the owner of the assets, including what\u2019s in subsection (2). What obligation can the Minister put upon the seller? To understand that, let us go to a definition\u2014and there\u2019s some pretty sharp lawyers on the other side of the Chamber, although things have diminished since my friend David Parker went away, but anyway. At subsection (1)(a), we see \u201Coutgoing person\u201D. It gives us a definition of who is qualified to be pursued as the person\u2014and I use that in a figurative sense as well\u2014who formerly owned the asset.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, does the Minister, acting jointly with the finance Minister, have the ability to secure, as they go out, a guarantee? Yes, they do. What does it apply to? It applies to the infrastructure outlined in the statute. Is it possible that if you look at paragraphs (a) and (b), that obligation can also be imposed upon a related body corporate to overcome any chicanery? I remind everyone that part of the motivation is that a loophole was discovered. You could effect a transfer of script, of equity, and, in an earlier version of this legislation, including the legislation of 2021, escape liability. Upon myself learning about that in discussions with the officials, it did not seem correct or moral that the Crown should be left with that liability and the people with some very shrewd manoeuvrings of script would escape liability. We have solved that problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ESo about to finish. If you look over the page\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f65e0003542f4f338f6dc1b1618c0e85\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Which page?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a976f6d291469fa332a6d5766094b7\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I\u2019m now on page 11\u2014we have sought high-quality advice as to what and who is a related body corporate, but what problem do we think we\u2019re solving here? We\u2019re solving the problem of corporate chicanery where shifty transfers of equity did not attract an ongoing liability. That has now been solved; the way in which it\u2019s been solved and what assets it relates to is on page\u00A011. The entities, to the solicitors in the Chamber, are identified in subsection (4). Now, I know it\u2019s technical, but\u2014and I repeat it again\u2014it\u2019s designed to ensure that we capture people who don\u2019t want to be held responsible, therefore they transferred script. That will no longer be legal. They are now caught in terms of a trailing liability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002250f6fd0b1dfb4dc2b769a5da2a2d1558\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250f6fd0b1dfb4dc2b769a5da2a2d1558\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. I appreciate the Minister\u2019s sensible contribution there, to talk through the details of this. I do have some questions around the trailing liability because, of course, the 2021 amendment that the Minister is speaking to did put in place a trailing liability for the real reason that these are technical and complex transactions; that the situation that we had, where New Zealand taxpayers were left to pick up the tab, was a result of a parent company selling to a subsidiary and the parent company exiting, and a subsidiary of that parent company, essentially, holding that licence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, one of the concerns that we had at the time, when we were making the changes to protect New Zealanders, and what has been unpicked by this Government, is that if you don\u2019t have trailing liability, you just have enough transactions to go through the line to ensure that the liability doesn\u2019t sit with the permit holder, that there can be liability loopholes. From the Minister\u2019s explanation\u2014I appreciated it\u2014I\u2019m not convinced that New Zealand taxpayers are being protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we see is that this is a Government that has watered down those protections that we\u2019d put in place for New Zealand taxpayers to make sure that if someone does come into New Zealand waters and that they do drill for oil and gas, they are the ones that are responsible for their costs and their fair share of decommissioning. That is not unreasonable, for a Government to put some cast-iron guarantees around that to protect New Zealanders in that way. That is what is being undone, and further undone, in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAs we\u2019ve identified, the sanctions that we\u2019re debating here in Part 2 really are the guts of this trailing liability. What we\u2019ve seen in this regulatory impact statement\u2014the annex to the regulatory impact statement that has been tabled\u2014is the work that has gone on after that committee of the whole House stage and the options that were put to the Minister. This is the updated policy work that has resulted in this Amendment Paper, and it goes through the problem definition but also the proposed policy changes. I think, in this Part 2, it is the time for this House to question him, and for the Minister to have a serious discussion with the committee of the whole House, around the policy process he went through, what the rationale was, and what the merits or otherwise of various options were. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThere were five options that officials put to the Minister, as outlined in this annex. One was to maintain the status quo, which was the original amendment bill that he had brought to the House; option two was to partially extend liability by statute in the context of change of control only; option three: extend liability by statute introduced to the bill through an Amendment Paper prior to committee of the whole House\u2014there was an amendment then; option four: extending liability by ministerial discretion at the point of approving transfer changes of control; or option five: broad ministerial discretion to apply liability at any point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, there is a big jump in here. It is one thing to want to tidy up a piece of legislation\u2014it\u2019s not unheard of for a Minister to bring an Amendment Paper\u2014but it is quite unique the way we\u2019re doing this one in terms of how we\u2019ve pulled the bill back from its third reading back into committee of the whole House to do this amendment. This isn\u2019t just tidying up the will and the policy of the Government that was being done through statute; what this has done is actually give the Minister ministerial discretion, and that is a change from the bill that was brought to the House. That is a leap in policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Minister needs to tell us why it was that he was convinced by officials that the only way to solve this problem was for Ministers to make the decision, not as it was\u2014and I may not agree with the Minister\u2019s policies, and I don\u2019t in this area; in fact, I vehemently disagree with them. But why is it that he made the decision to remove it from being a statutory set of provisions that were outlined in a bill to then giving himself and the Minister of Finance discretion to decide this? We\u2019ll come to those discretionary powers and the perimeters of those discretionary powers in other parts of the bill, because I think that the paper goes through some of the critical aspects of each of those options, but we need to understand how the Minister\u2019s thinking thought into this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we also know from this regulatory impact statement is that his officials went away and had had confidential meetings with key stakeholders and shared an outline of option four. Now, this wasn\u2019t shared with everybody who\u2019d submitted on the previous bill; this was key stakeholders. It is critical that, in the course of this debate in the committee of the whole House, the committee understands who it was that was privy to these inside conversations that were shared confidentially with some people and not all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI have here a list of everybody who submitted on this bill. It is long and it is varied. Unless we get a list of who it was that officials went away and did consult with, I think it would only be fitting for the committee to ask, submitter by submitter, reading out from their submissions any contributions they\u2019ve made on the trailing liability and decommissioning regime, what their thoughts were, and ask if the Minister considered this in coming to the policy decisions that are contained in Part 2 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThat is the alternative. The Minister can give the House a list of who it was that was consulted on in this confidential manner, or we can go through, one by one, everybody who submitted on this bill and ask the question whether their contribution to the trailing liability and decommissioning question was considered. That would obviously be a very lengthy process, but one that we\u2019re willing to do. When you have a look, I think it numbered in the hundreds, the numbers of submitters on this bill, and most were concerned with that issue of decommissioning and the trailing liability question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis is not just a trifling question; this is fundamental to how law is made\u2014that we had an industry group that were not happy with what had happened through a select committee process, or the committee of the whole House, who then got special access to officials. Not only did they have meetings\u2014what the regulatory impact statement is. They also had the option to provide written feedback in the days following those meetings. So not only face time\u2014and not everyone got that. They\u2019ve had fundamental input into this Amendment Paper that we\u2019ve got before us, and it is the job of this House to understand exactly who those people are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022aea9c6ee0b854f97a13efc431e4a668d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aea9c6ee0b854f97a13efc431e4a668d\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I direct the Hon Megan Woods to page 11, clause 29A inserting new section 41G, carrying on with new section 41H and new section 41I. I\u2019ll overlook the highly conspiratorial and clumsy attempt to talk about subterfuge, because the matua is a nationalist. It has fallen to me to restore this part of our economy, and, of course, how I have provided that leadership is reflective of my strong pro-industry approach, something I\u2019ve never hidden\u2014pro-industry to the point that why would you not engage with the stakeholders, the risk-takers, the providers of what precious little gas we have, ruined by the cancel culture? So, yes, of course you should expect nothing less than Shane Jones to be talking to a source of expertise: the people who have prepared themselves to remain involved in this essential industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, what has come out of that? Here, new section 41G outlines that the Minister, statutorily, has the ability to impose burdens, enforceable claims, liabilities. What sorts of things do they talk about? They talk about, i.e., the proximity that a particular party, person, company may have actually had at the point where the guarantee is either called upon or required. Not only that\u2014what\u2019s the nature of their financial strength beyond that? Will they be expected to offer an ongoing guarantee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003ENow, to move beyond these common-room conspiratorial charges, most not befitting of the committee in its tone and its culture and its heritage at all\u2014this is a demonstration that these tawdry attacks show\u2014and I\u2019m sad to say this, Mr Chair\u2014that the contributions are now descending into cant, well away from facts. The facts are laid out here; they provide guardrails. Yes, the decision will lie with the Minister. That is a policy decision that has been taken to ensure that we have a segment of our economy flourishing. In fact, I\u2019m looking forward to some investors coming down off the coast of the South Island to reinvigorate what people were forced to leave because of an abrupt, awful decision\u2014and I\u2019m only sad the person who made that decision is still a fugitive from electoral justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00222e7b0696c1b64d269e6558180ac4f093\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e7b0696c1b64d269e6558180ac4f093\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now, the Minister has just told us in terms of one of the policy options that he went through\u2014that are outlined in the regulatory impact statement\u2014that it was to ensure a flourishing sector. What he needs to tell us is why that was. What was the evidence? What was the evidential base for this policy decision that the Minister taking that decision was making? He may want that sector to flourish. If that was the outcome he was looking for, why was he convinced that for Ministers making that decision\u2014what was the evidential base that that would ensure that there was a flourishing sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very interested that the Minister thinks that him making the decision will ensure more investment on the east coast of the South Island, given the hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions of dollars, that have been invested in the exploration in those basins and exited because there were not commercial finds. I guess this is what the Minister\u2019s $200 million subsidy fund is for. But why was it that the Minister was convinced that it was ministerial decision-making that would ensure a flourishing sector? That is a causal leap that is not covered in the regulatory impact statement. It jumps from there being statutory fixes along the lines of what the current Government\u2019s policies wanted to be, and that is their prerogative, but then there is a causal link to the Minister having that discretion and him assuming that what will eventuate is a more flourishing sector. I have not seen anything in the documents that have been tabled that showed that there was any policy advice put to the Minister, but I would be very interested to hear what policy advice the Minister received on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u00228409d71e50724b08b136853fbd46c8b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228409d71e50724b08b136853fbd46c8b3\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00226bc92027215141399776844ececb1355\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bc92027215141399776844ececb1355\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The question that my colleague Dr Megan Woods just asked is actually a very significant one, because the whole premise of this legislative approach that we\u2019ve seen from the Minister for Resources\u2014to respond to his previous comments\u2014is the presumption that there is some vast reserve of gas or oil to be found. The specific narrative that the Minister has raised and therefore entitled us to respond to\u2014in his previous comment, he referred to himself as a nationalist. In fact, it is offshore oil companies that come and look for oil and gas here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EHe then said that it was cancel culture that caused the demise of that industry. Is the Minister aware that before the 2018 ban was put in place, Statoil had come and explored and then relinquished their Northland permits? Is he aware that Petrobras had been awarded a permit in the Rauk\u016Bmara Basin? They came, they searched, they got rightly harried by some excellent activists out at sea with Te Wh\u0101nau-\u0101-Apanui, and they found nothing and they relinquished their permits. Is he aware that Exxon Mobil searched in the Great South Basin and relinquished their permits? Is he aware that Shell Oil sold up their entire domestic infrastructure, and a month before the ban came into place, they sold what remnants they had to OMV? Is he aware that Anadarko did the same thing? They came, they searched for oil, they prospected, they found nothing, and they left. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a very important point, because these companies were coming and looking and leaving before the ban came\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00221217084a653e4c5eb1148f94e2c0b6d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221217084a653e4c5eb1148f94e2c0b6d0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just to help the member, please relate it to Part 2. Yes, the Minister has said some things and members are able to respond to that, and there is some leeway, but then we also need to bring this to Part 2, so if that could be done, I\u2019d appreciate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f81b497eeb8444c8832df6ebf2234415\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. Yes, I will bring it to Part 2. I\u2019ll finish up. I\u2019ll wrap up with that point. Essentially, those companies cancelled themselves. They were not cancelled. This is why this legislation is all the more important, because the premise that underpins it must be an understanding that, in fact, there is a significant risk for us if we don\u2019t have proper decommissioning regulations in place that don\u2019t rely solely on the enthusiasm of the Minister of the day to try and desperately get that dying industry back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI will go to replacement sections 41AA and 41AB in clause 26B. This might seem a minor question in the context of the overarching issue, but I note that it refers to tier 1 permits for minerals other than petroleum. Why is the change of control provision extended to tier 1 permit operators for minerals other than petroleum when most of the surrounding obligations relate to petroleum? What\u2019s the rationale for this inclusion? That\u2019s the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe second one is replacement section 41AB(3)(a). The bill notes that permit participants must notify the Minister for a change of control. Replacement section 41AB(3) notes that a copy of any agreement or document that specifies change of control must be given to the Minister. Is the requirement to provide a copy of any agreement or documents specifying the change of control sufficiently precise? That\u2019s my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWhat if the change in controlling ownership occurs through a series, for example, of indirect offshore share transactions with no single agreement? How is the Minister or the regulator to keep track of where such a change in control has occurred? What are the obligations on the regulated entity, those corporates, to make sure that they will provide a copy of any agreement or document specifying the change of control? That\u2019s the gist of that question. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u002228196d09e93f443eb9bbedc76526816d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228196d09e93f443eb9bbedc76526816d\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Given that I\u2019ve been so lucid in my stewardship of this bill, I direct the member\u2019s attention to page 8\u2014this is what I think the member is talking about\u2014replacement clause 28, amending replacement section 41A. The member also raised what level of obligation is on a permit holder to furnish the necessary information to the Crown via the Minister. Well, I direct the member\u2019s attention to 41A(1). The word \u201Cmust\u201D is not discretionary. The word \u201Cmust\u201D is, essentially, an enforceable duty. I need to say no more than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbfd58fe6a654dbaaab6b2e0232bc51a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbfd58fe6a654dbaaab6b2e0232bc51a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just briefly, noting that the Minister for Resources and the Hon Dr Megan Woods have been talking about some policy decisions and also the role of the Minister, I appreciate that there is a \u201Cmust\u201D for that notification of a change of control, but then there are a lot of \u201Cmays\u201D about what the Minister can do when deciding whether an outgoing guarantee is needed or not. But going back to the conversation I\u2019ve been having with the Minister about that outgoing guarantee and what it applies to, and if it just applies to decommissioning\u2014and I\u2019ve referenced section 39 of the principal Act before, but I still can\u2019t see the hook. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EHe\u2019s talked about the trading liability. The Minister has talked about how he\u2019s fixing a loophole here. So, as I said in my initial contribution on this part, if this amendment is changing things so that we can\u2019t go back in time to old permit holders and the \u201Cmust\u201D that the Minister just referred to is when a permit holder wants to sell the operation to somebody else, then they must tell the Minister, and the Minister may set this outgoing guarantee, and that outgoing guarantee is always referring to decommissioning. There is some link to the information that\u2019s required to relate to the permit, but my question is: is there anything in here that links to the Minister, or is it already in the existing legislation and so it doesn\u2019t need to be changed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ECan the Minister require a financial instrument for the ongoing conditions of a permit\u2014so not the decommissioning, but the ongoing permissions? That is the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8c90872d4fc488bab2cc776a83dd9dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8c90872d4fc488bab2cc776a83dd9dd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House will resume at 7.30. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.58 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0e384ebfeea44d6ae5bb579cf353d31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0e384ebfeea44d6ae5bb579cf353d31\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Good evening, members. When we broke for the dinner break, we were on the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill, and we were on Part 2, the debate on amendments to clause 25, new clauses 26A to 26C, clause 27, clause 28, and clause 29A, set out on Amendment Paper 343.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab8131a548bc4fa4953888c813d63d3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab8131a548bc4fa4953888c813d63d3d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to go to clause 27, in Part 2 of the legislation. There\u2019s some quite specific legislation. I think we\u2019ve still got a lot of the bigger policy questions that particularly pertain to clause 26, which is where the meat of the changes that we\u2019re seeing come through. But if we go to clause 27, which will replace clause 27 in the amendment bill, one of the things is \u201CSection 41AE amended (When Minister may consent to change of control of permit operator)\u201D. One of the things in clause 27(3) is \u201CIn section 41AE(1)(a), replace \u201Cchange in control\u201D with \u201Cchange of control\u201D.\u2019 Now, I\u2019m not trifling; this is an amendment that officials and the Minister have decided was important enough to put in an Amendment Paper. Can the Minister explain to us what the material difference between the \u201Cchange in control\u201D and \u201Cchange of control\u201D is? Also, what was the policy difference and what was the policy driver behind deciding to use the committee\u2019s time in terms of an amendment to move from \u201Cchange in control\u201D to \u201Cchange in control\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EFurthermore, just sticking with clause 27\u2014and, as I say, these are very specific questions\u2014clause\u00A027(5): \u201CIn section 41AE(1)(b), replace \u2018health and safety requirements of the Health and Safety at Work Act 2015\u2019 with \u2018health and safety and environmental requirements of all specified Acts\u2019.\u201D Why was that change made? What was the thinking behind it? Why was the original amendment to the Crown Minerals Act limited to only the Health and Safety at Work Act? Is it a legacy from the parent legislation that was drawn through? Why the change? What drove that? What was the policy thinking behind it, and what other Acts is the Minister, in bringing this amendment to the committee, thinking will be covered off by clause 27(5) when it says the \u201C\u00A0\u2018health and safety and environmental requirements of all specified Acts\u2019 \u201D? It\u2019s been broadened out\u2014why is it, and what in particular does it pertain to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we are wanting to understand throughout all of this is\u2014there are some very big changes, like going from having statutory decisions being made and a criteria where officials do that, to the Minister seizing discretionary powers, but then there\u2019s some very specific things, like \u201Cchange in control\u201D to \u201Cchange of control\u201D, and we\u2019re trying to understand what\u2019s driving both of these changes that we\u2019re seeing in this amendment bill. On clause 27, we\u2019ll be really looking for some insight from the Minister around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00227ffe2cfa30d74b1684c1c66822381fe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ffe2cfa30d74b1684c1c66822381fe3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to remind the committee that before the dinner break, one of the issues we were discussing was who exactly was consulted with by the Minister. There is very targeted consultation, limited to those directly impacted by the proposed change. We\u2019ve asked the Minister for who he actually consulted with in terms of these changes, and the Minister doesn\u2019t seem able to tell us, so we are going to go on a bit of a forensic process here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve gone to some of the submissions that have actually come up that were made. If the Minister won\u2019t tell us who commissioned him, we\u2019re going to have to ask for it. I\u2019m looking right now at the submission by Energy Resources Aotearoa, \u201CPowering a better New Zealand together\u201D. I just want to go to paragraph 36 of their submission\u2014\u201CUpdating the decommissioning provisions\u201D\u2014and they absolutely argue for much less liabilities for energy resource firms. They say, \u201COur concern is that the changes\u201D\u2014that the Minister had put in, that were there\u2014\u201Cdo not sufficiently or more fairly reallocate risk between the Crown and permit holders. The unequal burden on permit holders will continue to dampen the desire to invest in new exploration, appraisal, and development,\u201D and so on. So they were actually quite strong advocates for much less liability. In fact, if we go down to paragraph 41, they say \u201Ctrailing liability is redundant with appropriate financial security arrangements\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThis is a group of people who are very, very, very clearly in support of much reduced liability for energy companies, when it came to decommissioning wells. Given that the Minister won\u2019t tell us who he consulted with, we\u2019re going to have to go, one by one, through all these submissions and ask a very straightforward question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIf the Minister won\u2019t tell us, we\u2019re going to ask, one by one: in terms of forming this very last-minute Amendment Paper, did the Minister or his officials consult with Energy Resources Aotearoa Ltd? Straightforward question, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00224f2c1893c9d845db91b63f86b45b4abb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f2c1893c9d845db91b63f86b45b4abb\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Obviously, we\u2019re no longer talking about Part\u00A02, which is disappointing because I was hoping to raise the quality of contribution by ensuring it\u2019s of some technical relevance. However, needs must.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d13c79b655dc4c8896217c7c89b8a7a5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We do have some questions from Part 2, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223188904d653f4b5ca9c0d44e4c250a45\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been asked a question of clause 27. The improvement and the change reflects, from the drafting personnel, a superior form of wording. There is nothing else beyond that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI got asked a question also\u2014and I\u2019m on page 6, at new clause 27(4)(aa). It is evident that when the Minister exercises his or her discretion, then it\u2019s what the Minister considers to be appropriate, but, once again, the appropriateness is measured against the schema, the criteria outlined in the various sections, which I took us through prior to the dinner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThere was one other question which I do want to respond to. A reference was made to bonds\u2014so, this pertains to the decommissioning obligations under the Crown Minerals Act. Any other obligations that may have been incurred by an operator will inevitably fall under environmental legislation, and that is where they may also attract enforceable obligations. But our attention tonight is dedicated to the Minister enjoying the statutory authority, his or her judgment, based on criteria which is clearly and lucidly articulated in this pithy but lucid amendment bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022bef6c395a77e4748811358b247caed5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bef6c395a77e4748811358b247caed5f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a very small question for the Minister. I really appreciate both the Hon Dr Megan Woods and the Hon Dr Deborah Russell for their forensic analysis of the submitters, but I\u2019ve done a little bit of forensic analysis in a different way and I\u2019ve gone through the comparable sections of the Crown Minerals Act. The section I\u2019m referring to is clause 28, which is replacing section 41A(1). This is a section that the Minister was referring to just before the dinner break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy question is in the existing Crown Minerals Act, in section 41A(b)\u2014and it is quite small, and, hopefully, it\u2019s a quick confirmation from the Minister. There is a definition that is given to a \u201Cguarantor\u201D, but that definition, in the updated version of section 41A in Amendment Paper 343, has been removed. In the Crown Minerals Act, the definition for \u201Cguarantor\u201D is right after the body corporate \u201Chas provided a guarantee for the permit participant\u2019s obligations under the permit (a guarantor) has undergone a change of control.\u201D But that bracket with the definition of \u201Cguarantor\u201D has been replaced by \u201Cother than a body corporate that has provided an outgoing guarantee for those obligations\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI just want to check with the Minister, in lieu of having no definition, that the definition of a \u201Cguarantor\u201D is still the same\u2014that is, a body corporate \u201Cthat has provided a guarantee for the permit participant\u2019s obligations under the permit\u201D, \u201Cother than a body corporate that has provided an outgoing guarantee for those obligations\u201D. So is that still the definition of \u201Cguarantor\u201D? And I\u2019m guessing that a body corporate that is for providing an outgoing guarantee is not a guarantor. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebeee61ffc5e483fbc31c23bbc50f190\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebeee61ffc5e483fbc31c23bbc50f190\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Going from that very specific clause 27, going back to the question that I had posed before the dinner break around who are the stakeholders that the Minister had officials meet with, it\u2019s talked about that there were confidential forward drafts of the proposed amendment given to them. We\u2019ve asked the Minister to give a list. He hasn\u2019t been forthcoming with that, so we\u2019re left with no option but to go through each and every submitter and ask the Minister if this was an area that did feed into the final Amendment Paper that we have here. I think everyone in this committee will note there\u2019s around 500 submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI want to turn us now to the Lawyers for Climate Action submission that was a very fulsome submission to the original bill. I want to know whether or not they are one of the key stakeholders that were consulted with, as set out in the annex to the regulatory impact statement that\u2019s been tabled along with this Amendment Paper, which pertains to the meat of this legislation, which is in this clause 24 kind of area. Paragraph 27 of their very fulsome submission to the select committee\u2014the Lawyers for Climate Action, who are a group of legal professionals in this country who have a great deal of expertise in this area\u2014noted that \u201Cperpetual liability on the last remaining permit holder for decommissioning costs is not an adequate substitute for requiring payment of upfront security for such costs. New Zealand would be left with no recourse if a company ceased to exist, had insufficient assets to pay, or if its assets were in jurisdictions where rights of recovery were not recognised. These are all highly likely scenarios [and] there are already plenty of contaminated sites in Aotearoa New Zealand caused by private companies that are no longer around to clean them up.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis is a group of legal professionals that have a lot to offer. I would expect that this would have been part of the group of stakeholders, given their expertise, that the Minister would have had his officials meet with and who would have been privy to confidential briefings\u2014not only a meeting and a confidential briefing, but given the opportunity to give further advice in writing, as is outlined in the annex to the regulatory impact statement. So I\u2019d like to know from the Minister whether or not the Lawyers for Climate Action were one of the key stakeholders that were consulted with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00222e8e18a8a4c14edbab37fc7f132e6f31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e8e18a8a4c14edbab37fc7f132e6f31\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. A small question here, and it is on page 4 of Amendment Paper 343. It is related to new clause 26B, which is inserting new section 41AA, which is an interpretation section, and at subsection (2), there is a definition of \u201Ccontrolling interest\u201D. It is a controlling interest if they have control of \u201C50% or more of the voting rights in the body corporate\u201D in terms of \u201Cperson A\u201D in subsection (2)(a) and (b). The question is whether or not the Minister has looked at any advice to say that this is enough of a controlling interest, and how this definition relates to the people who are in control. \u201CChange of control\u201D is a phrase that is used throughout the amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAgain, I\u2019m interested in how this links through to the legislation and whether it\u2019s a change or not, and that goes to the wider policy point that the Minister was making before the break about the whole idea of his amendment being to stop loopholes and to stop companies\u2014I can\u2019t remember the word that he used, but to stop companies sliding out of some obligation. So does he think that that definition of \u201Ccontrolling interest\u201D is strong enough in the new section 41AA? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00223e6a10591c4844e6a4265bfe79aa2aca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e6a10591c4844e6a4265bfe79aa2aca\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. Perhaps, because I can with the Minister, in this exchange if I may, Madam Chair, I\u2019ll speak in te reo M\u0101ori, because I think it will capture exactly the spirit in which this question is asked towards his Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EE m\u014Dhio ana au, e te Minita, i te w\u0101 i whakaritehia t\u0113nei pepa hei whakaarotanga m\u0101 ng\u0101 iwi me ng\u0101 hap\u016B huri noa, i haere, i wh\u0101toro atu koe, otir\u0101 \u014D \u0101piha, ki ng\u0101 tini hap\u016B, ki ng\u0101 tini iwi. Engari ki roto i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pepa t\u0101piri, Amendment Paper and an amendment, me te panonitanga i t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 pepa t\u016Bturu nei, ko te p\u0101tai nui ki a koe mehemea kua wh\u0101toro atu \u014D \u0101piha, t\u014D tari an\u014D hoki ki w\u0113nei o ng\u0101 iwi i noho ki roto i te nohoanga tuatahi o t\u0113nei pire?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira he maha ng\u0101 iwi ki roto i t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 r\u014Dp\u016B, ki t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 r\u0101rangi ingoa. Ko \u0113tahi, an\u0101, ko ng\u0101 mana nui me ng\u0101 tapu nui o Te Arawa waka, me te m\u014Dhio an\u014D hoki he tini ng\u0101 hap\u016B me ng\u0101 iwi kei roto, \u0101, ko te hiahia kia whakarongo atu mehemea ki roto i w\u014D pepa e whakarerek\u0113 nei i te pire tuatahi, mehemea kua noho ng\u0101tahi \u014D \u0101piha me t\u014D tari ki te taha o Te Arawa waka wh\u0101nui.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EEngari e m\u014Dhio ana koe ki ng\u0101 r\u0101rangi ingoa ki runga i ng\u0101 r\u014Dp\u016B e p\u0101 kau atu ana ki t\u0113nei pire, mai i Te Rarawa, ka huri tua atu ki roto i a t\u0101ua i Te Taitokerau, an\u0101 ka heke iho r\u0101 ki roto i te Waipounamu me te tini o ng\u0101 rawa o te whenua kei raro iho i ng\u0101 mana whakahaere a te iwi, kei raro an\u014D hoki i ng\u0101 mana kua whakaritehia e t\u0113nei Whare e p\u0101 ana ki ng\u0101 take Tiriti kua tat\u016Bngia ki roto i ng\u0101 tau kua pahure ake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EK\u0101re au i te wh\u0101k\u012B i te roanga ake o ng\u0101 r\u0101rangi ingoa ki roto i ng\u0101 r\u014Dp\u016B kua k\u014Drerohia nei e au, heoi an\u014D ko t\u0101ku e hiahia ana kia whakarongo atu mehemea kua hoki atu an\u014D ng\u0101 \u0101piha me t\u014D tari ki w\u0113nei o ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata e whai p\u0101nga ana ki te kaupapa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E[I am aware, Minister, that at the time this paper was prepared for consideration by the iwi and hap\u016B all around, you went, you visited, indeed your officials, the many hap\u016B and manu iwi. However, within this Amendment Paper and amendment, and the amendments to this particular original paper, the main question to you is whether your officials, your office has visited these particular iwi that engaged in the first sitting of this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAnd so there are many iwi within that particular group, on that list of names. Some of them, indeed, are significant and sacred authorities of the Arawa confederation, and I\u2019m aware that there are many hap\u016B and iwi within it, and I would like to hear whether within your papers that amend the first bill, whether your officials and your office has engaged with the wider Arawa confederation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EHowever, you know the list of names on the parties that are affected by this bill, from Te Rarawa, and turning beyond that to you and me in Northland, and then coming down into the South Island and the various assets of the land that are under the governance authority of the iwi, and also under the authority that was arranged by this House with respect to the Treaty issues that were resolved over the years that have passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI will not recount the entire list of names within the parties that I have spoken about, however I would like to hear whether the officials and your office have returned to these particular people that have interest in the topic.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae62d3214b1846c58ff729d7784388c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae62d3214b1846c58ff729d7784388c9\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Tiamana. Me huri e t\u0101tou \u014D t\u0101tou whakaaro ki te w\u0101 i wh\u0101rikitia m\u0101 t\u0101 tingia ai te pire. K\u0101tahi ka kitea he k\u014Dhaohao. Ka haria mai he menemata n\u014D te marama o N\u014Dema. Ka whakatakotongia t\u0113n\u0101 menemata, k\u0101tahi ahau ka m\u014Dhio ko te takoto o ng\u0101 kupu k\u0101hore e tino \u016B ana ki t\u0101ku i hiahia ai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EK\u012Bhai ahau i whakapap\u0101 atu ki te tangata whenua, heoi n\u0101 noa te w\u0101 i whakapap\u0101 atu ahau ki te tangata whenua, te w\u0101 i waihangatia ai te pire ake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EKo t\u0101tou e k\u014Drero nei m\u014D ng\u0101 menemata, ng\u0101 pepa nonohi nei, p\u0113nei me te matikara o te pepa ake. Te hunga n\u0101ku i whakap\u0101 atu, ko te hunga e whai pakihi ana, e whai p\u0101nga \u016Bmanga ana ki roto i t\u0113nei r\u0101ngai o te ao ohanga. K\u012Bhai ahau i whakap\u0101 atu ki ng\u0101 k\u0101k\u0101riki, ki ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata e pahupahu ana m\u014D te huarere. Koin\u0101 noa te hunga i whakap\u0101 ai ahau ko te hunga e whakangao ana o r\u0101tou p\u016Btea ki roto i t\u0113nei r\u0101ngai o te ao ohanga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E[My acknowledgments, Madam Chair. We should think back to when the bill was first presented. As it was then that gaps were noticed. In November, an amendment was brought. When the amendment was tabled, I saw that the wording did not align with what I wanted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EI didn\u2019t initially contact the locally affiliated tribal groups, but when the bill itself was put together, that was a time that I did contact the affiliated tribes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EWe are discussing the amendments here, these little documents, like the fingerprint of the paper itself. The people that I did contact were the people who have companies, those who have a business involved in this sector of the economic world. I didn\u2019t make contact with the greenies, with people who yabber on about the weather. The only people that I contacted were those who invest their own money in this sector of the economic world.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003EThe consultation with tangata whenua ended when the bill was established, and they were very keen on a decommissioning regime that avoided the pitfalls of the Tamarind imbroglio. When the November amendment, which sought to redress a failing, which was the ability of people to trade shares and, potentially, evade liability\u2014there was no consultation with the tangata whenua. Then when that amendment\u2014I\u2019m talking November now\u2014was studied, and it became evident to me that the words in that particular amendment did not capture the outcomes that, from a policy perspective, we determined were necessary to reinvigorate the sector. I spoke to no climate group. I spoke to no tangata whenua group. I engaged with the people who are investing and who will be the risk takers to salvage and rescue this sector, and I\u2019m extraordinarily proud of myself that I\u2019ve done that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u00229429035a968e4ffa9a9e3d29b93fc266\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229429035a968e4ffa9a9e3d29b93fc266\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8a5b1dcadeb4deeb2841335bfa479c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8a5b1dcadeb4deeb2841335bfa479c2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a question from the Hon Dr Megan Woods, but I do think now that the Minister has answered the question around consultation\u2014not as comprehensively as members may have wished in terms of not naming each of the groups, but that is the Minister\u2019s answer\u2014I\u2019m looking for broader questions now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00220aa221098c6b4e74848232ded6286c64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220aa221098c6b4e74848232ded6286c64\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister has said he has not met with any environmental groups and he has not met with any iwi. So I will not ask him any questions about whether or not he has met with those, because that has been answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat I am interested in is: where\u2019s the expert legal advice, given that a number of submitters came at it from a legal perspective in terms of offering their submissions on the original bill? I\u2019ve already asked the Minister about the Lawyers for Climate Action; I won\u2019t be asking about them again. What I am going to ask the Minister about is the Environmental Law Initiative submission, which is an incredibly comprehensive submission on the original bill that went in there. It goes through the changes that were made in 2021 around how the changes were made so we could avoid the situation where taxpayers were lumbered with the liability again and then goes through the changes that the Government was proposing in that original piece of legislation that was brought. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThey made a very good point, and I would have thought something that the Minister would want his officials to have followed up on. He would have wanted this point to be taken into policy advice in bringing this Amendment Paper to the House, because they made the point in paragraph 30 of their submission: \u201CWhile the Government has argued that it is possible to \u2018make adjustments to the petroleum decommissioning regime in a way that does not materially increase risk to the Crown\u2019, it is ELI\u2019s\u201D\u2014that\u2019s the Environmental Law Initiative\u2019s\u2014\u201Cview that the changes proposed will undermine the intent of the whole regime by making it much easier for companies to avoid liability for decommissioning by transferring permits to smaller, less well-resourced companies towards the end of the productive life of the field, as is known to occur in New Zealand and overseas. These smaller companies are less likely to have the resources to pay for decommissioning, increasing the risk that the Crown will end up having to foot the bill.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, for any Minister whose job it is to put New Zealand\u2019s interests first, this is exactly the kind of advice that should be followed up. To only go to the largely multinational companies that want to come into New Zealand, who have made it clear they don\u2019t want to pay their own way, and seek their opinion is a dereliction of the duty of that Minister to stand up for New Zealanders, to make sure that he is protecting the interests of the taxpayers of New Zealand. Putting corporate interests before the interests of the New Zealand taxpayer is not something that New Zealanders expect of their Ministers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo it is imperative, when we know that there have been comprehensive legal submissions into a select committee process, and the Minister then decides to have a very unusual process for amending that legislation in terms of bringing the bill back out, when it was due for third reading, and recommitting it to committee stages, that this is the only chance we get to examine this. There were some expert opinions that were put into that select committee process\u2014that was bypassed, and we\u2019re going through this quite extraordinary process to do it. The Minister needs to tell us: is this the kind of meeting that he instructed his officials to have? We\u2019re told that there were confidential briefings on different options that were under consideration. I think the New Zealand public and this House, in deciding whether to pass this legislation, needs to know whether warnings like this factored into the paper that the Minister has brought to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd5dfa03cb8b4a6cb349669cfef13610\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd5dfa03cb8b4a6cb349669cfef13610\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll make a few additional remarks. I did not meet in the engagement pertaining to this document, which establishes the Minister, within guardrails, to enjoy a certain level of discretion to deal with the ebb and flow of decommissioning. There was no contact with the Environmental Law Initiative group. They are a shadowy organisation funded from Americans, and I will never ever talk to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u00226b61dfca4be14d4a913f6ab63246a2c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b61dfca4be14d4a913f6ab63246a2c9\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022eadea0fe6cf7468c9244d1d2bce36124\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002247ca0fac696b4f628e4ab39624e8da6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247ca0fac696b4f628e4ab39624e8da6c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Amendment Paper 343 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c6b3e76d648842e2a972006871cc71bc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8f57b87c7b840de82ced70b7e7bccfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8f57b87c7b840de82ced70b7e7bccfa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendments are agreed to; therefore, Part 2 as amended stands part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022742b3be92ad946ac851488839d84ae74\u0022\u003EAmendments to Part 3 set out on Amendment Paper 343\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002280253630775e4d8ca49a3a1d19cdb0e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280253630775e4d8ca49a3a1d19cdb0e3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3. This is the debate on amendments to clause 36, new clauses 36A to 36C, 37, 38, 39, 40, 43, 44, 45, 45A and 45B, new clauses 46AAA, 47A and 47B, clause 49, and amendments to the Schedule, set out on Amendment Paper 343. The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Amendment Paper 343 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9a06b114cba4c268a6181c7b22305d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9a06b114cba4c268a6181c7b22305d9\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Short question to start with\u2014on new clause 36A, inserted by clause 36, so on page 13. This is about the decommissioning and totally removing it, and then there\u2019s some exemptions, but then at subsection\u00A0(2A), it says: \u201CDespite subsection (2), an item of infrastructure left in place in accordance with an exemption \u2026 must be treated as having been decommissioned.\u201D So I take that to mean that oil and gas infrastructure can be left to contaminate the seabed. I wonder, with the Minister, has he consulted the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries about the impacts that leaving such infrastructure on the seabed could have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, going back to the questions that we were having in Part 2 that are relevant to Part 3, as well, on the people who were consulted on this amendment: I know the Minister has said that there\u2019s been no consultation with environmental groups or iwi groups, but has there been consultation with the type of people who know how to decommission this large infrastructure in a difficult environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, the guarantees\u2014I know the guarantees might be more in Part 2 of the bill that we just closed off, but it is relevant, the guarantee, to the decommissioning and the cost of decommissioning, because, of course, if an incorrect cost is assumed for the cost of decommissioning earlier on in a process, and it turns out that it\u2019s actually going to be a much larger cost to decommission because of\u2014who knows; it might be health and safety laws. Who knows what might change, but the decommissioning might be more expensive than first anticipated. So how is the financial mechanism going to provide for that increase in cost of decommissioning, and did the Minister consult with any of the financial institutions that might provide that sort of guarantee to work out how much the liability is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022debc2ad8fe9641f1b565661ccdc70b47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022debc2ad8fe9641f1b565661ccdc70b47\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Extending on those questions from my colleague Rachel Brooking\u2014the decommissioning cost is a crucial question. One thing that, also, we didn\u2019t get to ask in Part 2 was how the evaluations are made for the appropriate level of liability or guarantee that is to be set aside for different forms of petroleum exploration. We know that shallow wells have costs associated, but a deep-water well would have significantly more costs in terms of decommissioning. What are the evaluations that are made? What are the means by which the nature and extent of an outgoing guarantee may vary between these different types of wells? That\u2019s the essence of my question. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d95171082860442893982eb94c069d81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d95171082860442893982eb94c069d81\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My questions pertain to new clauses 36B and 36C. That\u2019s page 13 of the Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we know is that this Amendment Paper, in essence, what it\u2019s doing is it\u2019s removing automatic liability for the cost of decommissioning\u2014which has been covered off in questions from the Hon Rachel Brooking and from Steve Abel\u2014from those previous permit holders. But more importantly, and also one of the things that the legislation that we put in place in 2021 did, was it brought in associated criminal offences and pecuniary penalties for failing to meet the cost of decommissioning. But this Amendment Paper is removing all of that. It is a complete watering down of those protections that were there for the New Zealand taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we see from new clause 36B is that removal of their automatic liability and the associated criminal offences from a person with a participating interest in a permit, whenever that was granted, who transfers all or any part of their participating interest in the permit. Then 36C does that \u201Cfrom a licence holder or any person with a participating interest in a licence who transfers the licence or all or any part of their participating interest in the licence (see the repeal of section 89K(2) by new clause 36C, inserted by this Amendment Paper).\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo what I would like to know from the Minister\u2014and he never addressed the question in Part 2, but it pertains as much to Part 3 as it does to the question of the five policy options that are spelt out in the annex to the regulatory impact statement that were considered. What was it that made him settle on the preferred option, option four, that the Government ultimately went with? Why was it that it was ministerial discretion to decide these things that were decided on? We haven\u2019t had a policy explanation from the Minister about\u2014sure, he may have seen that there were some problems with the bill he\u2019d brought to the House and that it needed to be tidied up, but there\u2019s a leapfrog away from having those decisions laid out in statute to then giving discretionary power to a Minister to decide. That has not been adequately explained to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat was the policy rationale between not only the first and second reading and the select committee stage and the committee of the whole House, that we get to the point where the bill is looking for its third reading and that scrutiny has already happened, and there is such a fundamental shift, going from a decision that is defined by statute, to giving discretionary power to a Minister to make that decision? That needs to be spelt out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt wasn\u2019t all of the options that were put to the Minister. He\u2019s told us that the explanation was that he wanted to see the industry blossom. Well, there is no causal connection. He needs to explain to us how it is that giving a Minister the discretionary power to do it is going to lead to that particular outcome, because the logic simply doesn\u2019t follow and it doesn\u2019t stack up. What was the advice that he received that actually saying to multinational companies, \u201CYou can come to New Zealand, and if you just leave your mess for New Zealand taxpayers to leave up, don\u2019t worry, there\u2019s no penalties. I\u2019m removing those in the legislation as well and letting you off scot-free.\u201D\u2014what was the rationale that led him to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7f7566f8e75420e95bc3b2ec92350f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7f7566f8e75420e95bc3b2ec92350f2\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Now, the rationale is best conceived in the following way: this piece of legislation is a response to the worst energy natural resource decision ever recorded since the Treaty of Waitangi. Sadly, the main instigator is a political fugitive from electoral justice living at Harvard, so it has fallen to our Government. With the stroke of genius in new clauses 36A and 36B, it posits the responsibility with a Minister to make the judgment as to what flexibility\u2014because no statute, no bureaucrat can know all the scenarios, and as a consequence of these two clauses, the policy intent is absolutely clear. We are not going to trust our economy, corrode the productivity of our economy, by denying ourselves access to fossil fuels. The high-tide mark of that heresy has come and gone. That is why, in every speech I give about this bill, I am hailed and feted by all four corners of our motu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00223330c97c84654136950642e2edb1fbc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223330c97c84654136950642e2edb1fbc2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think the Minister needs to realise this is a committee of the whole House stage, where there are very particular questions put about individual sections of the bill. The Minister has theoretically opened this debate up to any energy decision made since the Treaty of Waitangi was signed with the contribution that he just gave. So I do encourage the Minister to actually start addressing the questions that are put to him. They are serious questions. This is a very atypical process that this bill is going through in that it has been recommitted to the House and is bypassing that scrutiny that it had previously gone through at select committee stage and the committee of the whole House. It\u2019s made some fundamental changes, not least of all the Minister giving himself discretionary power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, that is something that a Minister should come to this House prepared to answer questions about, not engage in hyperbole. They should actually be on top of the bills that they bring to this House and be able to answer basic questions like \u201CWhat does this section do?\u201D. That is not too much to ask of a Minister, and we haven\u2019t been able to get any of that detail out of this Minister in the time that he has sat in the chair. Don\u2019t worry, Madam Chair, I\u2019m not going to engage with every energy decision since 1840, which the Minister has brought into scope of this debate. So he may want to curb his enthusiasm while he sits in that chair, because he\u2019s broadening the debate with every utterance he makes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut I go back to the policy rationale. We are asking for this. It has not been adequately explained why it is that it requires ministerial discretionary decision-making to make it. Now, I might not agree, and I don\u2019t agree, with the changes the Minister is making, but why could he not pursue those through the original amendment bill that he brought, which wasn\u2019t through ministerial discretion making? There was a different route to do that and there were five options that were considered by his officials that are laid out in the regulatory impact statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not debating on this occasion the merits of the decision. I\u2019m just asking about why he has chosen this particular route. The committee does need to understand that. It\u2019s not enough just to say that he wants to be heralded from all four corners of the land\u2014that just makes no sense. Why is it\u2014what is the causal connection between ministerial discretion and what he thinks are the desired outcomes? The committee is still waiting and the committee deserves to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002248b191286d094be69d21b115b58f7ff8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248b191286d094be69d21b115b58f7ff8\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I take the first call on this piece of legislation, as someone who did represent an area that arguably had the largest reserves of hydrocarbons and mining. I\u2019m not going to go off onto a wider tangent\u2014I\u2019m tempted to\u2014but I will focus on the issue and the points being discussed now, and that is ministerial discretion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe Minister will himself know that we have three-year terms in this Government, and if indeed he is looking to support the mining sector\u2014and, coming from a region that has quite a history of mining, of decisions, good and bad, that have been made, some by politicians, others by heads of companies; decisions that have left the region of the West Coast in a mixed kind of situation. At the moment, it\u2019s OK. If you had a look and tried to assess the value of mining to the economy or to the community, you would expect that every person on the West Coast would be a multimillionaire. We should be multimillionaires. There have, literally, been billions and billions of dollars of resources taken from the West Coast region and, indeed, still are being taken from our region. We have towns that can\u2019t even put in a decent water-supply system. We have ratepayers who can\u2019t afford to pay rates. So the mining doesn\u2019t guarantee benefits and prosperity to the communities\u2014neither, indeed, to the wider community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe question of who makes the decisions as to whether these projects should go ahead or whether we have prospecting is a proposition put forward by the Minister, that the Minister should\u2014he should be reminded that there are a lot of people working around this country to ensure that there might be a Green Minister in 18 months or 20 months. Is that, indeed, what the Minister is seeking? That is a realistic outcome. What we do in this House is to try to balance decision making by politicians and Ministers against the independence of quasi-Government organisations\u2014or, indeed, it might be put out to an independent authority, where there\u2019s total independent decision-making; semi-independent back, where a Minister has oversight of a Government organisation; or it could be the Minister, as is being proposed here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhat goes around comes around, and I\u2019d suggest, and the Minister will know this, that to offer certainty, as he\u2019s trying to do, for the mining sector, for the prospecting and hydrocarbon sector\u2014they need a more robust and consistent process than the whims of a Minister. Because as I say, what goes around comes around. He may be aware of this, but not everyone is supportive of his proposals across the wider economy. I certainly understand and see the value of mining, but we are living in a world that is moving away from hydrocarbons. That reality must be taken on board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ETrying to give assurance to prospecting companies that the Minister of the day is very supportive\u2014and we would certainly acknowledge that\u2014and that that will continue beyond the next election is actually a falsehood. The Minister can no longer give an assurance beyond the next term because of the independence of this parliamentary system. Some people like it, some people don\u2019t. But the question of ministerial decision-making does come with a lot of risks, and it is important that those risks are tabled in this House here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe Minister, I\u2019m sure, will take a call, and I ask the question: has he considered a more independent process, to give more assurance to the mining sector that, in fact, the decisions made by him will, indeed, be enduring, or could they perhaps be overturned by a Minister with another set of objectives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2b6672ca30448a483a02f32ddd98e3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2b6672ca30448a483a02f32ddd98e3e\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the honourable member for that contribution. In my delivery this evening, I have not obfuscated the fact of a cardinal choice, a decision that was made to go for the Minister, who him- or herself will be accountable under this legislation. Potentially, his or her acts will be justiciable. That is how our system works. That politician, that Minister, is, yes, as the honourable member said, going to be able to exercise a certain level of discretion against criteria laid out\u2014and I don\u2019t want to belabour it, because I have referred incessantly to the criteria upon which she or he will make the decision. It is a choice that was taken by our Government. Yes, there were other choices, but we have decided, given where we are in the arc of our nation\u2019s journey to secure affordable, secure, and sustainable energy sources, the decision we\u2019ve made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u002250d45c8c0d9742c286400dea9031df9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250d45c8c0d9742c286400dea9031df9e\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is the first time I\u2019ve risen to take a call on this question, and I appreciate the Minister for Resources\u2019 explanation of the arc of our nation\u2019s journey towards our energy future. I\u2019m thinking here about new clause 36A, \u201CSection 89E amended (Decommissioning)\u201D, as well, and, in particular, the ministerial discretion around decommissioning. If we look at the other forms of legislation that are out there at the moment, why are we rushing through, or having this messy process that we\u2019ve had with this bill\u2014where we\u2019ve got an amendment upon an amendment for a bill\u2014to try and complicate things even further? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister, really, is: why are we not seeing some greater consistency across Government bills? We have the Offshore Renewable Energy Bill, which has a very different regime for decommissioning, and I\u2019m concerned. But the Minister could explain whether there is a reason why this is distinct, and why the decommissioning here is simply to give it ministerial discretion, rather than a more consistent decommissioning regime that allows for environmental concerns and that allows for other users to be taken into account. The Minister might like to respond directly and, hopefully, with a bit more clarity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI think it is important that we have consistency in our legislation and that it makes sense that there are not too many bits that just jar, because we\u2019ve already seen what happens when we have to amend an amendment to legislation, and it\u2019s just poor process. So if the Minister could explain why we aren\u2019t following a simple process, that would be helpful. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f33e47883d7b4d21819fb3e1d692d422\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f33e47883d7b4d21819fb3e1d692d422\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to go to clause 44 of the Amendment Paper, on page 16, which is the exemption powers of the Minister, section 89ZZA, and that\u2019s amended and replaced with \u201CThe Minister may, if they consider it appropriate and if satisfied that the criteria in section 89ZZB(1) are satisfied, exempt a permit holder or license holder from the obligation to carry out and meet the costs of any post-decommissioning work.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, I think this strikes at the heart of the questions that we\u2019re asking, these exemptions powers, these discretionary powers that the Minister is going to hold\u2014the Minister of the day, whoever that is, is going to hold\u2014under this legislation. I think what the committee would like\u2014and certainly on this side of the committee we\u2019d like to understand: \u201Cif they consider it appropriate and if satisfied\u201D. This is quite unusual wording in a piece of legislation. Usually, it would be that a Minister would exercise discretion if a set of criteria set out in a different clause of the Act was satisfied. But this Act has quite a different and quite a unique turn of phrase in it: \u201Cif they consider it appropriate and if satisfied\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like the Minister to explain exactly how that will be exercised, what that means, how that is different than the criteria in section 89ZZB(1) being satisfied and fulfilled, what the appropriate test actually looks like\u2014is it a subjective test? Are there some objective measures around it? How does the Minister consider that that will be exercised, and what are the policy discussions that have gone in to say that it needed to not just be that if the conditions in section 89ZZB(1) are satisfied, then the Minister can make this decision and come up with an exemption? Why is it that we\u2019ve got that quite unusual wording in that clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcd964359b7c4f39ab1799387c551c68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcd964359b7c4f39ab1799387c551c68\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Helpfully, my question is also on clause 44, but a different question, because what clause 44 does is replaces amended section 89ZZA(1) with what the Hon Dr Megan Woods has just read out. But the principal Act has another bit in it that is being deleted by this, which is it requires an \u201Cobligation to obtain and maintain a financial security under section 89ZV(1)(b)\u201D. And if we look at 89ZV(1)(b)\u2014that\u2019s at clause 33\u2014it amends 89ZV to, again, remove the phrase that talks about \u201Cobtain and maintain\u201D a financial obligation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo my question is: this deletion of having to obtain and maintain a financial security, is that something specific to this amendment of the amendment bill, or how is this explained in terms of the explanatory note and the other issues that the Minister has talked about? Is there somewhere else that has a requirement to obtain and maintain a financial security, or is it now just gone\u2014no financial security is required?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00221a01e36ab9304c57a3dee4605f6acd37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a01e36ab9304c57a3dee4605f6acd37\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I think the contributors are confusing two regimes. The regime that imposes the vast majority of the liability, in terms of environmental outcomes, is not this statute. What this statute does is it gives an elected politician, or the Crown warrant, within the guardrails of this Act, the ability to exercise some flexibility in terms of the final decommissioning obligations in this statute. It is wrong to suggest that it erodes liability imposed under other statutes. I have traversed why our Government has plonked for this particular approach. There, really, is nothing that I can usefully add, because it\u2019s striking a wall of indifference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022b79fe71fe2ea417d9b4232433b30b94b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b79fe71fe2ea417d9b4232433b30b94b\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think it is important in these sorts of instances, because what we are seeing here is that the further we get into this amendment, based on the Minister\u2019s response, it\u2019s a worrying trend of the extent of the executive power on the way that we\u2019re able to move regulations, and the way that we\u2019re looking at legislation and legislation-making power, which I think is a concern, not just simply for this particular bill but in terms of the way that our system works in general. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI wanted to draw the attention of the Minister to a specific area\u2014and I know that other people have lots more to talk about in terms of decommissioning. But I wanted to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to the Schedule. Now, in the amendments to the Schedule\u2014and I\u2019m looking at the new clause 45 that replaces clause 45, as an example\u2014actually, I\u2019m going to go with new clause 44 and new clause 45, which is in the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill, regarding tier 3 permits\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee3f2bd8819148ff88d34025f856a744\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Which page are you specifically referring to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227120a531efdf40d68d0a0d0634f4430a\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: I am looking at pages 18 and 19 of the new Amendment Paper 343, which is referring to pages 31 and 32 of the old Amendment Paper 214. On pages 18 and 19, we\u2019re looking at clauses 44 and 45 in the Schedule, which was previously tier 3 permits. I\u2019ll talk about financial securities if I get another opportunity, but I want to focus on these two first, because one of the first striking differences here is that rather than giving a specific date, as it has done in the previous amendment bill, what we have seen is a date that is now done by Order in Council. Granted, the original date has already passed, which was 30 June 2025, but I wanted to ask as my first question to the Minister why a concrete date hasn\u2019t been given in this case and why, instead, we will be requiring an Order in Council for a new date. That\u2019s my first question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy second question is this: in the Schedule, in new clause 45, \u201CExisting Tier 2 permits may become Tier 3 permits\u201D, under the existing amendment bill, at new clause 45, it does mention that a Minister must consider different criteria. In this case, subclause (3) says that \u201CThe Minister must\u2014(a) consider whether the permit satisfies the requirements of a Tier 3 permit as set out in section 2B(2A);\u201D. However, there was no part in the previous Amendment Paper that had subclause (3)(b) mentioned at all, which determines \u201Cwhether the permit area is an appropriate area.\u201D This is a new clause that\u2019s been added in this new Amendment Paper, which is different from the previous one. So my second question to the Minister is: what is the rationale for adding in this specific clause? Considering it doesn\u2019t need to meet the criteria set out in section 2B(2A) because it\u2019s a different subclause, what is, then, the Minister\u2019s definition for \u201Cappropriate\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00227fae913d17d740e386010d3236355998\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fae913d17d740e386010d3236355998\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Going back to the Minister for Resources\u2019 answer about my question around the deletion of \u201Cto obtain and maintain a financial security\u201D, the Minister said that\u2019s to do with different Acts. I\u2019m quoting from the principal Act, the Crown Minerals Act. Then, we turn over the pages and we hear what our colleague has just spoken about in terms of financial securities at page 19 and that being a transitional provision. So, surely, the answer to my question, Minister, is that you are removing the need for a financial security under your amendment and that is what your change is. If it\u2019s not\u2014if it\u2019s somewhere else in the legislation\u2014could you point us to it? If the Minister is saying that it\u2019s somewhere in some other legislation, I\u2019m interested in that, as well, but to say that it\u2019s not governed by the legislation is wrong. It is governed by the Crown Minerals Act. The Minister may want to say that his changes will mean that it\u2019s not included in the Act, when this bill becomes an Act, but those are two different points, and so I\u2019d like the Minister to clarify that point, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022df560387d6f245969cd46b4e5b59c335\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df560387d6f245969cd46b4e5b59c335\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d now like to turn my attention to clause 40 on page 15 of the Amendment Paper. What clause 40, and I think 39 before it, if I\u2019m not mistaken, do is they amend sections 89M and 89U of the Crown Minerals Act. They are the sections\u201489M and 89U\u2014being repealed, and that, effectively, removes the liability for former permit and licence holders. This is a category that we haven\u2019t talked about. We\u2019ve talked about current operations, and what happens if there\u2019s a transfer of those assets and the shareholdings change. But what we haven\u2019t talked about is those former permit and licence holders and what risks this poses to the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019d like to know from the Minister is whether or not there was any economic modelling of the risk to the Crown in terms of potential costs? We know that there\u2019s about a $2.5 billion decommissioning cost out there, in New Zealand, in terms of what these changes mean, in terms of that risk profile to the Crown and, therefore, the New Zealand taxpayer. And if that modelling doesn\u2019t exist, why didn\u2019t he ask for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022334712130a084b80ba371a01b331b427\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022334712130a084b80ba371a01b331b427\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Obviously, this legislation in no way negates the existence of an obligation enforceable against a permit holder to ensure that they\u2019re held responsible for decommissioning outcomes, subject to the discretion exercised by the Minister. Now, I accept that it is a philosophical or institutional policy decision that our Government has taken which is at odds with the prosecutors in the Opposition, but it is what it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u00227a480674bbf64c36af46efda64eeb288\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a480674bbf64c36af46efda64eeb288\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002277c3bc371c7c42b1bf652e0fb1733c4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277c3bc371c7c42b1bf652e0fb1733c4a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d just like to follow up on that answer that the Minister gave. Obviously, we hold very different views on this, but what I would like to know from the Minister is whether or not economic modelling was done around the risk profile to the Crown, and if it wasn\u2019t, why he didn\u2019t ask for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022958e52a6dab34be0a36d61d6bf72d0d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022958e52a6dab34be0a36d61d6bf72d0d2\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m interested in page 19, which is to do with the Schedule at clause 45, \u201CExisting Tier 2 permits may become Tier 3 permits\u201D, and I\u2019m wondering if the Minister can explain why we have this provision. Wouldn\u2019t it be better that tier 2 permits remained tier 2 permits and didn\u2019t become tier 3 permits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002293ce40ec354348ebb8533b128c83e1de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293ce40ec354348ebb8533b128c83e1de\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just puzzling my way through the amendments, and in the original Act, it\u2019s to section 89ZZA. Now, in the amendment bill, it was amended by clause\u00A044. And now, in the amendment to the amendment bill, it is being amended yet again. In effect, it\u2019s worth just ignoring what\u2019s gone through in the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill and just going straight from the source legislation\u2014the parent legislation, as it were\u2014to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022570d7bb4bcf44b09a4de8353c235b406\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: The principal legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228156e97202ab46638cce1c82cc2bd0c7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the principal legislation; I knew there must be a lawyer\u2019s term for that, thank you\u2014to what\u2019s sitting in the amendment bill. So, in the exemption part, the amended section 89ZZA is another one which gives the Minister exemption powers. It\u2019s been there quite some time\u2014well, it was inserted on 1 December 2023, so that\u2019s quite interesting. But they say: \u201C(1) The Minister may, if they consider it appropriate and if satisfied that the criteria in section 89ZZB(1)(a) or (b) are satisfied, exempt a permit holder or a licence holder from the obligation to pay all or part of any amount the person would otherwise be required to pay under section 89ZV(1)(a) or from the obligation to obtain and maintain a financial security under section 89ZV(1)(b).\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s the section in the principal legislation. But by the time it\u2019s amended: \u201C(1) The Minister may, if they consider it appropriate and if satisfied that the criteria in section 89ZZB(1) are satisfied, exempt a permit holder or a licence holder from the obligation to carry out and meet the costs of any post-decommissioning work.\u201D So, previously, as far as I can tell, because this is not legislation I\u2019m especially familiar with, a permit holder or a licence holder would have posted a bond, they\u2019d have had to pay something, they had to maintain a financial security, and the Minister could grant an exemption from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, that bit around actually paying some money upfront that the Minister can exempt people from is that the Minister can now exempt someone from actually carrying out and meeting the costs of any post-decommissioning work. So there\u2019s a little bit of an analysis that\u2019s needed here, because under the old section that\u2019s sitting in the principal Act, the person would have been required to pay some money\u2014presumably quite a lot, because this is expensive stuff\u2014but now they, under the ministerial discretion, can be exempted from the obligation to carry out and meet any of the costs of the post-commissioning work. So there\u2019s a shift there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat I want to know, given that it\u2019s been changed around like this, is the extent to which any modelling was done on this about the amounts of money that might be involved and what the costs might have been to the petroleum exploration companies or whoever is doing the work or whatever, or, alternatively, what the residual cost to the Crown might be. That\u2019s the bit that really worries me. You see, the difficulty is that we know from the Tamarind experience that the cost to the Crown was quite extraordinary in terms of cleaning up the mess that was left behind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo what I\u2019m looking for is whether the Minister requested any advice in changing from the original section 89ZZA to this new section 89ZZA, where the change is from paying a sum of money to actually paying the cost of any post-commissioning work, and the Minister can exempt the person from doing that. What I\u2019m looking for is just whether the Minister sought any advice on that, any modelling on it, any quantification of the numbers involved. The reason this is important is, of course, if the Minister issues an exemption, then the people who clean up the mess are the New Zealand taxpayers who end up paying the sums there. So I\u2019m hoping that the Minister has requested some advice on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c348a16a292b4a49bc19c45ca0722a3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c348a16a292b4a49bc19c45ca0722a3a\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E The advice taken was of a highly professional nature. It was within the bounds of proper conduct from our professional civil service. There is a clear pathway forward in each of these clauses, which shows that liabilities can still be imposed, costs can still be recovered. But the genius of the bill is that it ensconces a Minister, entrusted with the interests of the entire nation, to effect rational, flexible outcomes. And upon that note, here endeth the lesson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002283d367359f254a16829a4919ce7a7355\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283d367359f254a16829a4919ce7a7355\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c8a1080c531446e1b78583432f0cb257\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c776c1376bf44183b56e71230f1bfa5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c776c1376bf44183b56e71230f1bfa5f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Amendment Paper 343 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224d39a0a0902846c29f27f16f1317a610\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229647384004894d6392f726f089c7614a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229647384004894d6392f726f089c7614a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendments are agreed to; therefore, Part 3 as amended stands part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is\u2014on the Schedule, where there is no debate\u2014that the Minister\u2019s amendments to the Schedule set out on Amendment Paper 343 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e55c36510c16422ea81522841b455ab9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229e8af98b39744a48bcde6b5513842205\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e8af98b39744a48bcde6b5513842205\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendments are agreed to; therefore, the Schedule as amended stands part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222bc8f129896c4d9fbe26d8e5e6fb132f\u0022\u003EAmendments to Clause 2 set out on Amendment Paper 343\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224f575ede9c444f4aa4dbec0f2e14ada4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f575ede9c444f4aa4dbec0f2e14ada4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate: clause 2. This is the debate on the Minister for Resources\u2019 amendment to clause 2, set out on Amendment Paper\u00A0343.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002207188e853ec2444d8fc83c01a1bc9781\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207188e853ec2444d8fc83c01a1bc9781\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In clause 2, the commencement date, there\u2019s a very interesting change that has happened between the Act; the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill that came to the House, went through select committee; and this Amendment Paper that landed. In clause 2, the commencement was the Act came into force on the day after Royal assent\u2014\u201CHowever, the following sections come into force on 1 July 2025\u201D. Now, clearly, that date has been missed\u2014and that\u2019s not the subject of my question to the Minister\u2014because the change in the Amendment Paper that we\u2019ve got before us is: \u201CHowever, the following sections come into force on a single date set by Order in Council:\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo my question for the Minister is why we\u2019ve gone from having a date defined in the statute that could have just been updated to reflect the passage of time that this legislation is now going through the House\u2014why we\u2019re now going to a statutory instrument in the form of an Order in Council? Why are we going to secondary legislation? This is atypical for the way to set commencement of legislation, and, obviously, a conscious decision that has been made by the Minister in bringing this Amendment Paper to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, given that there hasn\u2019t been any chance to look at this at any other point since now, it is quite a fundamental shift, and one, I think, that the House should debate and understand why it is\u2014the date is immaterial to us. Obviously, the date has to shift. There\u2019s been a huge delay with this legislation. It\u2019s been knocking around for around seven or eight months while the Minister had his officials talking to the oil and gas industry. But what we don\u2019t know is why it is we\u2019re now using a statutory instrument, why it is we\u2019re using secondary legislation in the form of an Order in Council, to set that date. Why aren\u2019t we just defining that date in the Amendment Paper that we have before us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022c629f5d65a894e01836703042bf9240c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c629f5d65a894e01836703042bf9240c\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Another change with the commencement clause is that clauses 44 and 45 of Part 6 of Schedule 1 also come into force on this single date, rather than the more generic 1 January date. Clauses 44 and 45 of the Schedule relate to pre-existing applications and existing tier 2 permits becoming tier 3 permits. I note that the Minister didn\u2019t answer my question on that in Part 3 of the debate. But why is it that only clauses 44 and 45 of the Schedule need to come into force by Order in Council and not the other provisions in the Schedule? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00224fa8897dba3343998dea79e649739e07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fa8897dba3343998dea79e649739e07\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Here was I, just going to get\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225013a4d5b5fe4e82ac905d8439759104\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: You were trying to get off from speaking on this bill! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e53ff3644ae9471aa99be2273825481f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. I do want to query something, and it just goes to this business that my colleague Megan Woods spoke about, and that is the Act coming into force using an Order in Council, which is what is set out here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296f122fab8b1422c8d2f37e124259766\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s highly unusual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e29055ee1e614a108d970b5144838278\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: It is unusual. In the normal progress of this bill, we would normally expect that with the committee stage today\u2014and we think we\u2019ll be here debating this well until 10 o\u2019clock, won\u2019t we? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fe342415-6351-4072-a17e-19dab2ef184d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229daecacc36f64375928e5143aa891a9b\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u003C/span\u003E: 1 a.m. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223665b0491de245238c74f56c8521b2c6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! But we are going to keep on, and then it\u2019s a members\u2019 day tomorrow, so this bill is going to perhaps reappear for its third reading on Thursday of this week. Maybe it won\u2019t make it for its third reading until the next sitting block, and, ordinarily, we would think that if something was going through the House and it was going to pass into law, it would simply go to the Governor-General a few days after that. That\u2019s just a fairly regular process for the legislation that went through the House this week. We\u2019d expect it to be signed off by the Governor-General within a week or two\u2014no worries. So why an Order in Council? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat is the reason for delaying the start of this Act\u2014that can be the only reason for it. The Act can\u2019t come into effect any sooner than the Royal assent. It\u2019s not law until the Royal assent is given, so why the potential delay? What\u2019s going on, and is the Minister concerned that there is yet another problem sitting in here that he\u2019s going to need to fix up at some stage? Is he just giving himself a little bit of time so that if absolutely necessary, something can be fixed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, it can\u2019t be recommitted to the House, but we\u2019re just deeply concerned that the Minister is just kind of playing jiggery-pokery with the House here. I want to understand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d54fdea1f342d3b49b983eec0104ea\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CJiggery-pokery\u201D\u2014what does that mean? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc06017e6603403eb60e66508da6b784\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Jiggery-pokery\u2014it means jiggery-pokery. Careful what you\u2019re opening yourself up to there, Mr McCallum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe Minister has been very secretive, actually, about this Amendment Paper 343. He\u2019s been very secretive about who he has consulted with. We don\u2019t know who the officials met with. We don\u2019t know who got to write this bill for him\u2014because some of it just has the hallmarks of that. We don\u2019t know and he won\u2019t tell us who he consulted with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThis is particularly concerning when there\u2019s a whole lot of ministerial exemptions in here, and now we\u2019ve got something else which amounts to another bit of ministerial discretion. It\u2019s ministerial discretion. I know what the regular process is around an Order in Council and Cabinet, and this, that, and the other. Nevertheless, the Minister is getting to choose exactly when this bill comes into force and when the regulations sitting in there start happening, and that is deeply worrying. I think that the Minister needs to explain to us that it\u2019s not just a matter of \u201CThis is what the Government decided to do.\u201D Why? Why has this Government decided to have yet more discretion over the starting date for when this bill comes into effect? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022c90fb05c9c544179843fbfa54c5ca619\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c90fb05c9c544179843fbfa54c5ca619\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. While we\u2019re waiting for the Minister to respond to the questions around the commencement date changing from a solid date to Order in Council, I have a different question to ask the Minister which is not so much about what\u2019s there but what isn\u2019t there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, one of the things we see in the existing legislation is that indeed the Act comes into force the day after Royal assent. That is clause 2, subclause (1). In subclause (2), it gives the concrete date of 1 July. It has been mentioned before that the 1 July date has already passed. That\u2019s fine. However, between the Royal assent date and the 1 July date, there must be a period that requires some form of update or implementation in order to get us to that 1 July date; otherwise, everything in the existing amendment would say the day after Royal assent. It wouldn\u2019t give a date which, presumably, at that stage, was three to six months into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe question, then, is while there is Order in Council and there is the back-up date of 1 January 2026, subclause (2) mentions all of the clauses that are covered by the Order in Council. But in terms of the clauses that weren\u2019t covered by the Order in Council, which, presumably, will still take effect the day after Royal assent, have any of those things been made inviable or has the viability been tested as a result of the delay of the introduction of this piece of legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think that is also a different question for the Minister to respond to\u2014that with the delay of this bill\u2019s third reading and, ostensibly, Royal assent, that original Royal assent date in other parts of the legislation may be affected. If so, are there any other sections that have been affected as a result?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd843ed2f9dd4fd4ae2dffcd3a218768\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd843ed2f9dd4fd4ae2dffcd3a218768\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E A brief response: the Order in Council option is reflective of the fine balance of this whole statute. It enables commencement of all portions of the regime to take place contemporaneously. It is not unreasonable for that power to be exercised to reduce the prospect of people being bewildered as to when the operational portions of the Act all come into force together. The Order in Council enables us to achieve that outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022aba38b2943474602a3d16a207047278e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aba38b2943474602a3d16a207047278e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman, and I thank the Minister for that explanation. But still, I\u2019m perplexed why it is that the original Crown Minerals Amendment Bill that came to the House did have a bifurcated commencement regime in it, in that commencement: \u201C(1) This Act comes into force on the day after Royal assent\u201D; \u201C(2) However, the following sections come into force on 1 July 2025\u201D. So that had already separated out and had two different pathways for the commencement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI absolutely accept from the Minister that there needs to be some staggering and different parts of the bill will need to come into force at different times. But we\u2019re still, in this committee, not understanding why this Amendment Paper has opted for the Order in Council route\u2014to go for a secondary legislation option\u2014when the original bill that was brought to the House had a perfectly adequate way of achieving that bifurcation of making sure that there were different pathways for different parts of the Act because it made sense for them to come in at different times. So while the Minister gave, I thought, a persuasive contribution to the House on why different parts needed to come in at different times, he didn\u2019t explain why it is that you need that mechanism of the Order in Council in the Amendment Paper that hasn\u2019t been required in the original amendment Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022a68e0b9215154862a3bad8c554602bd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a68e0b9215154862a3bad8c554602bd4\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022576ff61e04ad42a7ac30c8130b46136d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3396d464ca6408489bda13160b33a63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3396d464ca6408489bda13160b33a63\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to clause 2 set out on Amendment Paper 343 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a043d7a0bcdf47aea76c5941bad4b2a8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226999928f039547ce9dfcefdbfbd1e65e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226999928f039547ce9dfcefdbfbd1e65e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment is agreed to; therefore, clause 2 as amended stands part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1b97f2db17e469e9fe71ab4e4f9e16c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1b97f2db17e469e9fe71ab4e4f9e16c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has further considered the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221fe26d92abd7417bbd48ecd4556f4711\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fe26d92abd7417bbd48ecd4556f4711\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Local Government (Water Services) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223415812c64124a68a433a237edc4f578\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Water Services) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022811dacff95854880914e2176ae144e93\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224602c8c574c04a95aa34c56b4e44e94d\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions and Schedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002208235dd1292549b18c42be95c0811ab0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208235dd1292549b18c42be95c0811ab0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Local Government (Water Services) Bill. We start with debate on Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 3 to 6A \u201CPreliminary provisions\u201D and Schedule 1. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227c43732c7fa54d068a7eee3d0b7e078c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c43732c7fa54d068a7eee3d0b7e078c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Colleagues, I just wish to make a statement in regards to a matter that I think is relevant to the timing. I, firstly, would like to acknowledge the officials from the Department of Internal Affairs that have supported the local government water reform over the last few years. In particular, I wish to acknowledge Michael Lovett, deputy secretary of policy and Te Tiriti, who has passed away today following a short battle with illness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMichael started at the Department of Internal Affairs in August 2017 and built a strong relationship with the local government sector as a partnership director, then later becoming the deputy chief executive of the local government branch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI wish to acknowledge Michael and thank him for his service to this portfolio, and I recognise the 20-year contribution he made to the New Zealand Public Service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022443443\u0022 data-id=\u00223b2313bbb6cb4fcab2168313a2451ca7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022443443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b2313bbb6cb4fcab2168313a2451ca7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Aroha nui e te wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfedc428b42d4fbc94005373c5c0e0ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfedc428b42d4fbc94005373c5c0e0ff\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Chair, thank you. Can I firstly join the Minister of Local Government in acknowledging the passing of Michael, which is unfortunate to learn of this evening. On behalf of the Labour Party, we extend our condolences to his family and acknowledge the service to this country in what is important reform across a number of Governments in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is a hefty piece of legislation that, effectively, does complete the Government\u2019s sort of final tranche of water reform. We on this side of the Chamber will be taking the opportunity to step through what is a fairly hefty bill that\u2019s in front of us. There have been, out of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, 367 amendments, and there are a number of amendments contained in the Minister\u2019s name. There are a number of amendments from members of the Opposition as well that we\u2019ll work to look through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut the reality is that this is a piece of legislation that is very significant but also has regulatory and legal complexities that come with it, and so our questions will be framed in that particular space. I understand that my colleagues in the Labour Party, when we get to the relevant part of the bill, will have a number of questions as they pertain to their local constituencies that they represent, so I will leave that over to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut I want to turn to clause 3, which is the first substantive part of Part 1, and this, fundamentally, is around the purposes. My question to the Minister is how the purposes as outlined in the bill, in clause 3, can in fact follow through to the remainder of the bill, particularly looking at where this is a piece of legislation that would seek to provide a framework for the local government sector around the area of flexibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI point out flexibility because the question for the Minister is how he is able to reconcile that statement in the purpose clause around flexibility but also, actually, sustainability\u2014and in this context, the bill does identify that it\u2019s \u201Cfinancial sustainability\u201D. How is he able to reconcile those stated purposes with the fact that this is a bill that perhaps will remove a desire and incentive for what is regional scale and shared service models? Now, we\u2019ll get to that later in the piece, but, fundamentally, first question for the Minister is how he reconciles, particularly, the flexibility and the financial sustainability component of clause 3 with the ability to deliver regional scale and shared service models.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u00226126aaed68d94772950a4c2615fedd0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226126aaed68d94772950a4c2615fedd0a\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Firstly, I would really like to take the time, too, to acknowledge Michael Lovett, his family and friends, and really thank the Minister for Local Government for taking that time to acknowledge Michael and his contribution\u2014really, really sad to hear that tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EMy contribution, first and foremost, at the outset, is also picking up on the purpose of the bill, particularly because we know that this bill is already live in the sense that we\u2019ve already had the preliminary bills, and we know that councils are already in the process of various consultation measures that they are undertaking to be set up to actually put in place this now primary bill, which will set out how those potential water entities will be operated, how they\u2019ll be set up. And it has really clear, very significant consequences for our communities, particularly with local government elections this year, and, particularly, it has consequences for our environment. So we\u2019re really keen to be looking at so many aspects of the bill ahead, which we think could be clearly improved on, and to hear from the Minister about questions, particularly about how these clauses then have implications and consequences for our communities and for the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe first aspect that I wanted to pick up on is actually outlined in a number of amendments that I\u2019m proposing to the purposes in clause 3 in Part 1. The first is: the bill sets out really clearly in clause\u00A03(b)(i), in Part 5, that the purpose is to \u201Cenable effective and proportionate economic regulation of water services and water quality regulation\u201D. What I\u2019m proposing is replacing those words with \u201Cenable effective water quality regulation and proportionate economic regulation of water services\u201D. Why I think it needs to be in that order is because it needs to place water quality and the actual water service outcomes as that primary purpose over the economic regulation, which we know is also central to this bill. But the way that it has it\u2014and the purpose emphasises that\u2014is economic regulation over that of the actual outcomes for our communities\u2019 drinking water in particular but also for the environment. I\u2019d really like to hear from the Minister if he would consider that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe second amendment I have on that clause is just further below that, at clause 3(b)(ii). Currently, it talks about, basically, empowering the Minister of Local Government with powers to act when a water service provider is facing a problem or a potential problem. The rationale with what I\u2019m proposing is to change this to actually say: \u201Cprovide the Minister of Local Government with powers to intervene on behalf of communities when a water service provider is facing a problem\u201D. Now, the reason I think that this would be appropriate is it actually amends this so that it\u2019s talking about actual problems that communities are facing\u2014and they\u2019re real problems that are identified, not just potential ones\u2014and, surely, if ministerial intervention is warranted, then, surely, the power to act should be granted to the Minister when they actually hear very real concerns from the community, and the community is facing that problem. I\u2019d really like to hear if the Minister would consider that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThen, thirdly, still on this purpose clause, clause 3, I\u2019m proposing to add a further part to the purpose clause. The point of this amendment is that the purpose itself is so important in actually delivering these clear outcomes that this bill seeks to achieve, and what it\u2019s really missing is reference to not only environmental sustainability but, particularly, equitable access to water services. So I\u2019m proposing that we insert a clause 3(c) under clause 3 that says: \u201Cto ensure the environmental sustainability and equitable access to water services by water service providers\u201D. This is particularly important, because we know what we\u2019re seeing\u2014although councils are really doing their best to work together and pull together, there are inevitably these councils that are, essentially, being left out, and what that means in reality is communities are being left out when it comes to actual improvement of water, which they so badly need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really concerning that there is nothing here in these purpose clauses about equitable access to water services, particularly when we know guaranteeing access to water is a human right, and particularly here in Aotearoa New Zealand, we want it to be really clear that no matter where you go in the country, you can have access to safe, clean drinking water, which we know has, unfortunately, not been the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWe think that there should be a really clear, upfront purpose clause that speaks to that environmental sustainability and the equitable access to water services of communities, and I\u2019d really like to hear from the Minister what considerations he\u2019s had around this, and why they are not currently in the purpose clause. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00222956c647d6f340d1abe3ca1dffc3f125\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222956c647d6f340d1abe3ca1dffc3f125\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, members, for those questions. In regards to the points raised by Lan Pham in regards to the two amendments being proposed, the member will be no doubt aware of the water-quality regulator that is in place, which does have, within its remit, water-quality regulation in the setting of the appropriate standards, including environmental standards in that context. That is the entity which executes a wide range of the elements which the member was referring to, and it is where it is appropriately placed. It is an area that is important as part of the overarching package of the way in which water services are delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the questions on clause 3, in the context of the definitions and the interplay that was noted between flexibility and financial sustainability, the premise of the overarching legislation recognises that water services entities that will be created as a result of this need to be financially sustainable, and the mechanism in regards to how entities are structured is a decision for local councils. So there is no context or no blockage, as the member was implying, around not being able to establish regionalised entities\u2014actually, quite the opposite. You are seeing groupings of councils take that action, so that is within the provisions of the clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EA large number of amendments made by the Finance and Expenditure Committee actually improved and enhanced the definition clauses of this bill. As Minister for this legislation, the fact that there are over 300 amendments signals clearly that the select committee process played an integral part in improving the bill. It was very much the case, from my perspective, of ensuring that we took on board the feedback from the select committee to enhance the bill so that it was a much better bill as a result, and I do believe we have got to that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00224e63de9a122b4fa38f76791536f9037e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e63de9a122b4fa38f76791536f9037e\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. So on Part 1, we\u2019ve already traversed a little bit the purpose clause in clause 3, and I want to focus on the type of council that we\u2019re talking about and how it relates to the interpretation section. So this is at clause 3(a)(i): \u201Cproviding for territorial authorities responsibility for providing water services\u201D. I, of course, understand that some territorial authorities are unitary authorities so include that regional council role as well. But then I\u2019m interested in the definitions and how this all links together with a \u201Cwater service provider\u201D, which includes\u2014so this is in the definitions section, so I\u2019m on page 34 of the bill\u2014at (c), \u201Ca regional council that has not transferred all of its responsibility for providing water services\u201D. Then water services is defined on the next page as meaning \u201Cany or all of the following: (a) water supply services: (b) stormwater services: (c) wastewater services\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m wondering if the Minister can comment on the role that regional councils have in this scheme when they\u2019re not a unitary authority\u2014when they\u2019re a normal regional council\u2014and whether they should be then included in the purpose clause if there is an element of them providing water services rather than regulating those water services or requiring permissions to take water or to get consent for stormwater or waste-water discharges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, just while I\u2019ve got your attention, on page 36, the definition of \u201Cwatercourse\u201D is there: \u201Cincludes a river, stream, passage, and channel\u201D. But this has been deleted by the select committee: \u201Calong which water flows, whether continuously or intermittently\u201D. Then, \u201Calong which water flows continuously\u201D is repeated. So the point of this change is that \u201Cintermittently\u201D has been removed from the definition of \u201Cwatercourse\u201D for this bill, and I\u2019m wondering why that is. Obviously, there are a lot of watercourses that can be dry at different times of the year, and these are areas where you might have stormwater overflows and the like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo two questions there. One, why are we getting rid of intermittent watercourses from the definition? And two, how are regional councils seen, given the purpose and those definitions that I read out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00228a835b0bdadb4185ae4944208e4b4d8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a835b0bdadb4185ae4944208e4b4d8f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is a big bill, so we\u2019re going to try and stick very closely to the sections so that we\u2019re also able to indicate to the person in the chair which area we\u2019re on. I\u2019m going to start with clause 3, on the purposes. I appreciated what the Minister mentioned before in terms of what is stated in clause 3(b)(i), which has the inclusion of the term \u201Cwater quality regulation\u201D. However, I want to look at the broader context of this, I think, starting with clause 3(a).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, the reason that I would encourage the Minister to consider my colleague Lan Pham\u2019s amendment, particularly when it comes to water quality but also in terms of environmental sustainability, is\u2014for context, I was born in a city of 15 million people, a small, medium-sized city in China. Growing up, we were not able to drink tap water as a result of severe water pollution in my home city. The only thing we had available to us was bottled water\u2014filtered water, even at that stage, wasn\u2019t a thing. It was a shock and a surprise upon arriving, when my family migrated to Aotearoa New Zealand, when I saw people drinking straight out of the tap. I remember my 10-year-old self being highly fearful that they were going to get sick, because this is what I\u2019d been told growing up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think back to that and think about what we are seeing nowadays in terms of our freshwater quality, most recently in Gore with the level of nitrates, and I did think, \u201CHow can a country with a low population not manage our water-quality system?\u201D I think this is really crucial to the crux of the purpose of this bill, and I do want to ask the Minister, in this case, even if the Minister thinks that there is enough protection around environmental protection and water quality in clause 3(a), does \u201Caccountable manner\u201D accurately capture and encompass water quality in a way that ensures that everyone in Aotearoa New Zealand can have water from the tap by right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EFor example, when we were looking at the framing of \u201Caccountable manner\u201D\u2014and I do apologise; I was not part of the select committee process\u2014does \u201Caccountable manner\u201D address the issue that, for example, we\u2019ve recently seen in Gore and the level of nitrates? When we are looking at clause 3(b), when we are looking at water quality regulation, it\u2019s specified that clause 3(b) is only in reference to Part 5, amendments to other bills. Does it also mean that Parts 1 to 4 are exempted from having to have a degree of water-quality regulation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI understand, also, the Minister mentioned before that Part 5 is probably where it\u2019s most relevant, but even looking at a cursory reading of Part 5, it covers amendment bills like the Income Tax Act and the Commerce Act. I actually think that if we\u2019re really serious about water-quality regulations, we do need to see that term in subclause (a) as well as subclause (b). That\u2019s my second question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy final question to the Minister is subclause (b)(ii), which does talk about the Minister of Local Government or the Minister of the day having powers to act when a water service provider is facing a problem or potential problem. I also support my colleague Lan Pham\u2019s amendment on this. But what we are not seeing, at least in the purpose section\u2014and this, I\u2019m sure, may come up later on, but if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind speaking to it\u2014is what problem, or potential problem, is the Minister seeing? Again, using Gore and the nitrates example, is that sufficient enough to see it as a problem that requires a ministerial intervention? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002233862da10cd44f37ae7a8787fc4a7e82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233862da10cd44f37ae7a8787fc4a7e82\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, I\u2019ve only had a chance to see our colleague Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendment\u2019s today, and the Labour Party will be supporting all three of those tabled amendments as they relate to clause 3 because we do believe that the role of environmental sustainability needs to be not just included but given a little bit of shining light in that space, as does the quality of water as a primary purpose in achieving the outcome of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe one that I do want to speak on briefly is the tabled amendment that relates to the role in which the Minister of Local Government would be able to exercise the powers that they would have for the purpose of intervention. I want to thank Lan Pham for what is a very sensible amendment, because it, basically, I think, is framed in a way of supporting local decision makers and local democracy. So the Minister would still have powers of intervention and the ability, therefore, to intervene when it comes to the purpose, but only in circumstances where there were actual and real problems that had been identified\u2014not \u201Cwhat ifs\u201D, \u201Cwhat might be\u2019s\u201D, hypotheticals, but actual rational thinking around intervention. I think that is a very sensible amendment. So the Labour Party will be supporting that amendment through this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe Minister has touched on the fact that there were more than 360 amendments, and he says that that\u2019s, you know, a responsive select committee. I think it also lends itself to the argument that this was a bad piece of legislation that the Government introduced and it required extra effort on the part of the select committee, those that submitted. Let\u2019s not forget about the fact, Minister, that this was a bill that did require additional time from the Business Committee to progress some of the changes that they wanted to, given the time constraints. This really is part of this Government\u2019s \u201Cnational water done bad\u201D approach to water reform in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe question that I have for the Minister is still on clause 3, although it takes a different particular tack, and it is around the evidence to support the claim that has been confirmed by the Minister that, in actual fact, this particular framework that is, essentially, established under this bill will be more cost-effective than what was the previous reform model. We hear a lot about the cost of infrastructure and, in particular, water infrastructure, ageing water infrastructure, that councils around the country are facing. The Government doesn\u2019t seem to want to accept the fact that the figure of around $185\u00A0billion over a 30-year horizon in this particular space\u2014those are real issues that need to be thought through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister\u2014and I do acknowledge his previous response to my other question about flexibility and financial sustainability, but, Minister, I\u2019m interested to understand what actual evidence exists to support that claim that the framework will, in fact, be more cost effective than the previous reform model that was on the cards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002204d1bf95d98c42e0ac0ffa27316986a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204d1bf95d98c42e0ac0ffa27316986a2\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll come back with some responses to prior questions, starting with the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s questions in regards to regional councils\u2019 role in water services. The member is correct in the context of unitary councils, which obviously include components of regional council responsibilities with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBasically, this bill enables regional councils to transfer some of those water responsibilities. It\u2019s not part of this part, but it is part of a part that we will come to soon, so I won\u2019t go too much more into it. But a good example in that context is Greater Wellington Regional Council, who currently provide bulk water supply, as one of the examples.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other question asked by the member was in regards to why the definition has been removed in regards to watercourse. It is primarily to make a distinction between the overland flow paths, which have stormwater and the sea, and the watercourses that have water in them all the time. That\u2019s the reason why the change was made, in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThere were a number of questions in regards to intervention powers by the Minister. I mean, I think the reality is that intervention is done as a last resort. The last time that we\u2019ve seen that is in Wellington\u2019s instance, and I think there was plenty of evidence to support the deployment of that, and it\u2019s actually been a positive outcome, in the context of the work there. But the threshold is high before that\u2019s considered\u2014I think it\u2019s in the right place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EClause 3(b)(ii): I don\u2019t believe there\u2019s sufficient basis for any changes from where the select committee has reached in those aspects. I\u2019ve noted already around clause 3 in my prior response around the aspects around water quality. We\u2019ve actually got a separate water-quality regulator, which shows the importance of water quality and the environmental impacts. It is that important; hence we\u2019ve got a separate regulated entity, and I think having a separate independent regulated entity is also important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other element the regional councils play is, sometimes, in some instances, such as Auckland Council, they act as an enforcement agency for some of the consents of water care\u2014so there is an interplay between the levels of local government and these entities, and I think that is just an acknowledgment of the question asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2a1f11de15e4df39de261ad5890f7e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2a1f11de15e4df39de261ad5890f7e1\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Hey, thank you\u2014that was a bit informal, wasn\u2019t it? Thank you for those answers. I look forward to the part where we discuss the empowering role of regional councils. On the overflow paths\u2014I thank the Minister for his answer about the watercourses removing intermittently\u2014I wonder, though, if there are intermittent watercourses that aren\u2019t overflow paths that would still relate to stormwater.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI wanted to move on to clause 6, and that is \u201CAct binds the Crown\u201D, but then there\u2019s an exception from that, which is to say that the Crown is exempt from paying those development contributions. That specific section\u2014section 109\u2014comes up later in the bill. It doesn\u2019t apply to K\u0101inga Ora, but it does seem to apply to every other Crown thing that might happen that might require some sort of development contribution\u2014perhaps hospitals, or perhaps universities. These are things that I think about in my part of the world. Maybe the Minister could comment on what exempting them will mean for the councils that have these water organisations that might be requiring development contributions, or we can deal with that later on as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, at clause 6A, the Treaty clause has been moved by the select committee to the front of the Act, and the commentary of the select committee is that the wording aligns with legislation such as the Fast-track Approvals Act 2024. To that, I would say that is probably not the best piece of legislation to be looking for good Treaty clauses, and all it is is \u201CAll persons must act consistently with Treaty settlement obligations\u201D. Does this Government see that there is no place for any Treaty obligations under this bill for non-settled iwi, noting, of course, that we have large parts of the country that do have real water services problems having no settlement? Of course I\u2019m thinking of Northland as the obvious case in point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u00221f81073e9ba440379ef4eb8a0718f802\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f81073e9ba440379ef4eb8a0718f802\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I wanted to move on slightly just to clause 9, but it\u2019s really to do with the entirety of Subpart 1 in terms of responsibility for providing water services. There\u2019s a number of clauses\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ce402fc2ac9497fb76e1091f60cd020\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just to confirm, clause 9 is in Part 2. This is the debate for Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bd4ab5a138c4d6abcafefedf57ab373\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. You\u2019re right. I\u2019ve moved on to Part 2\u2014sorry. My apologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1931c74aef24b019838d31c333746e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1931c74aef24b019838d31c333746e8\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, I want to pick up on clause 4, which is the definitions. There are a number of changes that have been made to the definitions. One of the interesting ones is, basically, removing a definition of \u201Cinfrastructure\u201D. What was originally in the bill was a very broad\u2014well, it was infrastructure. It wasn\u2019t traffic corridor infrastructure, it wasn\u2019t water service infrastructure; it was just infrastructure. My sort of take from what now lies within this clause is a new definition which largely expands the definition of \u201Cwater services infrastructure\u201D. So I do think it is very important, given that\u2019s what this is largely about. When one compares what was in the former, now struck out, definition for \u201Cinfrastructure\u201D, it is very similar. The only point of difference is that the previous definition for \u201Cinfrastructure\u201D excluded the conveyance of water. So my question to the Minister of Local Government is whether he is comfortable, on the advice that he has received, that that definition of infrastructure for water services, which is very vital to this bill and what it seeks to achieve, has been drafted in a way that, basically, covers all aspects. No issue with removing the \u201Cinfrastructure\u201D in isolation as a definition and inserting it somewhere else, but just interested in the Minister\u2019s thoughts around that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to also look at clause 5, which relates to Schedule 1, which I understand we are debating as part of this part. This is around the \u201CTransitional, savings, and related provisions\u201D piece. The question to the Minister is: what does he foresee as the level of support that would be made available to councils who are in a process of navigating what could be complex transitional processes as part of this, especially those that might be some way through some form of reform process? Now, there are many councils around the country who are already on some particular path to water reform. I reflect that my own constituency of Palmerston North is certainly in that particular boat. What sort of level of support is available to councils who are part way through some form of reform? Now, I appreciate that local authorities are expected to deliver a water services delivery plan by\u2014well, within the first week of September or thereabouts. But that\u2019s what the question relates to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESpecifically on Schedule 1, this is a level of more detail that relates to various individuals that might be impacted and the like. The question for the Minister is: when it comes to smaller or rural councils\u2014and we have many of those around Aotearoa New Zealand\u2014what is the justification in what appears to be a lack of flexibility in transitional arrangements for smaller or rural councils? So, on the one hand, the Government is saying that there must be some provisions related to a transitional phase\u2014OK, we understand that. But why is it that there is a lack of flexibility when it might come to the arrangements for smaller or rural councils in that particular space? But also, why is there no capacity to provide any review opportunity? You know, this is a huge piece of work, and we fundamentally have issues with the Government\u2019s approach to this. But, none the less, has the Minister considered some review mechanism at some point that might look at, as part of that transitional approach, where there is a provision for ensuring that, yes, there is some form of continuity around service, whether that\u2019s waste water, stormwater, or drinking water delivery? But why is there no opportunity to have any sort of mechanism to review what the impact would be on communities as part of the Government\u2019s reform approach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8f158c3bf2e46449c75c15b9ab5508b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8f158c3bf2e46449c75c15b9ab5508b\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks very much for those questions. With regard to the question from the Hon Rachel Brooking, in regard to Treaty clauses, there was quite comprehensive engagement with iwi, in regards to this bill, through the select committee process. The reality is\u2014the question around iwi that have not undertaken settlement\u2014the Treaty settlement obligations apply when the settlement is made; therefore, as and when those iwi enter into agreements, that will be covered off through that. There are also requirements around the entities and how they must interact with and meet obligations in regards to that, and councils themselves already have those obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the points around rural councils and a review mechanism, as part of the water services delivery plans, those plans include reasonably comprehensive milestones in terms of points. As you would expect with any long-term capital plan, there will be regular points of reassessment of that. There\u2019s no difference between a small rural or semi-urban council and a large rural or large urban one. It\u2019s not one size fits all; their plans will be appropriate to their needs and requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to clause 6A, which is around functions and duties and powers within the Act, the select committee did expand the scope of the requirements in response to submissions. You can see enhancements of that clause, which is positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other question, I believe, in regards to clause 4, the interpretations, which is the definitions section, I think the key element there to highlight is that the definition element within that, for example, deals with the Watercare entity and ensuring that the definition of \u201Cwater service provider\u201D and \u201Cwater organisation\u201D clearly incorporates that Auckland water organisation, which is the primary purpose of that clause 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca0fa4043605419aa542ce9ea481364e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca0fa4043605419aa542ce9ea481364e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have two questions for the Minister regarding clause 4 of Part 1. I know the Minister has touched on Treaty settlements, but we do see a conflation between Te Tiriti obligations and Treaty settlements, because not all hap\u016B and iwi would have those kinds of Treaty settlements. Treaty settlements are very separate and have been well covered in the definition and certain parts of this bill. What I\u2019m more interested in is the broader Te Tiriti obligations, understanding that there aren\u2019t any specific Te Tiriti clauses within Part 1 of this bill, neither under clause 3 nor, as far as I can see, under clause 4. However, I do note that, for example, under the definition of \u201Cshareholder\u201D, it has been suggested that iwi and hap\u016B, potentially, are able to join by agreement of the territorial authority to actually enter as a shareholder. That was suggested as an inclusion into the definition of \u201Cshareholder\u201D. However, that wasn\u2019t included with the reasoning that \u201Cany other body that is permitted to hold shares under an exemption granted under section 57\u201D\u2014not to preclude other things that could be covered under section 57.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ECan I just check with the Minister that under the definition of \u201Cshareholder\u201D, should hap\u016B or iwi want to be shareholders alongside the territorial authority, how would that work in terms of getting that exemption through either a Minister or through any other avenues? That\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy second question is around the removed definition of \u201Cinfrastructure\u201D. It is also kind of peculiar that there was no indication that such a definition should be removed, especially since that the recommendation by the department was to amend the definition to include other aspects. I want to check with the Minister on what the rationale is to remove the definition for \u201Cinfrastructure\u201D here. Is it covered in another section? Those are my two questions for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u0022780628f1d36e4f25a431c9b8a2874f69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022780628f1d36e4f25a431c9b8a2874f69\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I didn\u2019t have the joy of sitting through all of the debate and the submissions in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, but I have a number of questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to start with clause 4 and the focus on stormwater. I\u2019ve got some questions that I would like you to answer about \u201Cstormwater service zone\u201D, first of all, and where you\u2019re talking about a geographic area with one or more urban areas, how does that relate to smaller settlements? I went to a meeting of Hawke\u2019s Bay Regional Council, talking about resilience in P\u014Drangahau, and they are very concerned about how the stormwater and the dangers of flooding will affect that small rural community. They probably wouldn\u2019t think of themselves as an urban community, but would they be included in that urban area?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EAnother question I had about the stormwater services\u2014and I would thank my colleague Rachel Brooking for mentioning intermittent streams. I think they might also sometimes be referred to as \u201Cephemeral\u201D\u2014ones that run in the winter but not the summer. I\u2019m not sure whether you think that\u2019s exactly the same or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EMy third question for the moment about stormwater is about why you\u2019re excluding the transport corridors. There has been a lot of work done by urban design organisations, by Biophilic Cities Network, and so on, about permeable surfaces. Those permeable surfaces might well fit within the transport corridor. Often, people think the transport corridor is just kerb to kerb, but quite often, technically, in district plans, it\u2019s wider than that. The potential is for using\u2014where you don\u2019t have houses that will be damaged\u2014where you\u2019ve got excellent run off from the tarmac on to potential areas that could absorb water if they were well designed with planting, with the right kinds of surfaces. Often, you have car parks, either adjacent to or within a transport corridor, and, all too often, the cheapest, non-permeable surface is chosen rather than something that could actually cope with the increasing intensity of rainfall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EAgain, from my experience, the unplanted clay soils in and around our urban areas, or some of our urban areas, if they\u2019re not planted up, if they do not have permeable design criteria in their construction, it actually makes it worse and it runs off faster. The opportunity is also not just potential for reducing the risk of flooding but potential for being able to use that water for the local communities, whether it\u2019s a community garden, whether it\u2019s for emergency water\u2014those sorts of issues. I would like some answers to the Minister\u2019s thinking on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5900281ec214e6799036e075b69ef1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5900281ec214e6799036e075b69ef1f\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00229b650e2556ea4d8d8424b691dce50a91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b650e2556ea4d8d8424b691dce50a91\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks. I\u2019ll just answer the last remaining questions. The question in regards to the Treaty obligations and shareholder questions I raised before, the councils have obligations to support the Crown in meeting its Treaty obligations under sections of the Local Government Act, so that\u2019s where those components of coverage apply, and they obviously continue to apply as well. The question around shareholders and around iwi, shareholders of these entities can only be local authorities, consumer trusts, or a cooperative company, which is, basically, another mechanism around consumer ownership. The mechanism in which this has been proposed is not something that is possible under the arrangement, because the premise being that these are owned is outlined by the entities that I\u2019ve described. In regards to the other question, I have answered the point around clause 4, subclause (3). The other element that was raised in regards to the exclusions around stormwater as well is relevant to the points I raised around the overland flow paths before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff3975e39902470e876416a4ad194a5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff3975e39902470e876416a4ad194a5a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the Minister of Local Government for that. I was hoping to hear from the Minister a response to the issue around the \u201Cinfrastructure\u201D definition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f50e6712f4a4b7896f9ad437682cad1\u0022\u003EHon Simon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Oh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289474f007f1e48c4bc275d0e135df3b6\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: You want to get up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f460080bc1d640a8a3f3ce78ed4fb74c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f460080bc1d640a8a3f3ce78ed4fb74c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E \u201CInfrastructure\u201D was replaced with \u201Cwater services infrastructure\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002269b362fe387747528a9483b97f35bca9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269b362fe387747528a9483b97f35bca9\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you to the Minister for that. I guess the related point to that question\u2014and Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan talked about the removal of \u201Cinfrastructure\u201D. I didn\u2019t pick up on the concerns around whether it was adequately removed or not. But the follow-up question was the issue around water conveyance, which was not in the original definition of \u201Cinfrastructure\u201D but now is in the \u201Cwater services infrastructure\u201D piece. So I\u2019d be interested in in the Minister\u2019s response around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other point around definitions\u2014and there are a lot of definitions in here, and a lot of them have had significant and substantive change. The only other one that, at this stage, I do want to touch on is reference to the definition of a \u201Cdistrict plan\u201D. My colleague Celia Wade-Brown just referred to a district plan. As part of the \u201CInterpretation\u201D, clause 4, there is a change in that the district plan has been modified, as a definition, to be a term that is defined in section 43AA of the Resource Management Act (RMA). What was there was that it was an authority\u2019s district plan prepared under the RMA. It might be semantics, but semantics matter. So my question to the Minister is: are there specific changes envisaged here that a council, in the preparation of a district plan, which is a completely different process to actually having a district plan\u2014where is the interplay with that? Is this a specific move to redefine the relevance of a district plan, whereas all the work, or some of the work, that may have gone into the preparation aspects is now being not part of the consideration? So that\u2019s a question for the Minister there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other one is: looking at all of those interpretation facets, is the Minister concerned that there could potentially be a risk around inconsistent approaches to the definitions in different councils, or is that something that he doesn\u2019t see as an issue, or, if so, he accepts that there is a possibility for inconsistency\u2014that that doesn\u2019t matter; and if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f67b66e8d306428e800c463bee52bf69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f67b66e8d306428e800c463bee52bf69\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I asked a question earlier about development contributions and I don\u2019t think the Minister answered it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8dbd73d500b4f62a9ba1aa7415cda81\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Could you say that again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8c83a9b262c49d09372e430abd30187\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I asked a question before about development contributions, which I don\u2019t think the Minister answered. We have at, I think, clause 6: \u201Csection 109 partially exempts the Crown from making development contributions\u201D, and you go to that section, and it says there\u2019s an exemption for K\u0101inga Ora. What analysis and thought has gone into the sorts of development contributions that the Crown might be not paying by this exemption?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227e5e81f7156740cba33b9d2eae84cdcb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e5e81f7156740cba33b9d2eae84cdcb\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Just in regards to that question by the Hon Rachel Brooking, the provisions within the Local Government Act 2002\u2014this basically preserves the status quo in regards to those aspects. The development contribution will obviously be replaced by development levies, which is the work under way at the moment, but the Local Government Act clause, as I\u2019ve noted, deals with the aspect that\u2019s been raised. So that covers that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3a7792506be4841b2569882f1e9c553\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3a7792506be4841b2569882f1e9c553\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I would like to actually move to clause 5 of Part 1, which is around Schedule 1. I think there are actually a lot of really important questions for the Minister around transitional savings and related provisions, but I want to start by asking the Minister, hopefully, a really simple and straightforward question, which is around Part 1 of Schedule 1, clause 1, \u201CIdentification of affected employees\u201D and a transfer of any from one service provider to another water service provider. I just want to check with the Minister, in those kinds of cases, what sorts of precautions, if any, have been put in place around collective agreements? Are there any water service employees that are part of collective agreements that may be affected by this? And how would one, then, untangle themselves from this as part of the transitional measures? I just want to start by asking the Minister that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI can keep asking the Minister questions. I\u2019m guessing the Minister is still waiting to get some advice on that. I think, in terms of other transitional measures, and there are still quite a lot, if we\u2019re looking at clause 6, when it comes to \u201Cwater services annual report\u201D\u2014actually, Mr Chair, may I ask a point of clarification?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3af491b52cb42f9b208b85f48929d56\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256a13fabe68547ecbd45704e4dab5617\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019m mentioning, in terms of clause 1 and clause 2, is related to Part 1, but when we\u2019re looking at Schedule 1\u2014Part 1, for example\u2014clause 5 refers to Part 4 of the bill. Would it be more appropriate to have those discussions of Schedule 1, even though they\u2019re in Part 1, when we get to Part 4? Would that be appropriate? I\u2019m seeing nods from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bbecb6a9fa44f5ba4533f17f21fa17f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I mean, this debate includes Schedule 1. Let me read it out\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a81024dad3547d09057ba4e1bbac711\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014this debate includes Schedule 1, which is in Part 1, but within Schedule 1, it makes references to Part 4. For example, in clause 5 of Schedule 1, it says, \u201CDespite Part 4 coming into force sooner,\u201D. The question would be: would it be OK to have the debate on Schedule 1, on Part 4\u2014that refers to Part 4\u2014when Part 4 comes up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218274af98662402089c35c1d9ce1791c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: No, the debate on Schedule 1 is now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c5a3ca9fbed4fdba98c420d3439c9df\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: OK. In that case, my question to the Minister, for clause 6, \u201Cfirst water services annual report\u201D, regardless of what happens in Part 4\u2014we might discuss Part 4 around that\u2014I wondered, with the dates that have been provided, are there any sorts of precautions or any thoughts that the Minister may have around the provisions of that water services report and what those transitional measures would entail?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b72acb04f4024327a63b823d09475dda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b72acb04f4024327a63b823d09475dda\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you for the clarification around Schedule 1 in its entirety. That does open up, actually, quite a number of points and a number of questions that I\u2019ll now sort of commence on the pathway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f4f7ee0643d40b0b4ac5e5567aaacf8\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Tangi, you\u2019re a lawyer; you know how it works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279aab83a1ca5407b9e37d3a62db0bc60\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: No lawyer, no lawyer, no lawyer here. Feel free to take a call and share your thoughts with the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing is that this actually spends a little bit of time identifying what would happen to employees who are, effectively, part of a transfer as part of this process. That is quite a significant implication for people in the community when we think about\u2014regardless of the option that councils might choose to head down, and there will be there will be a number of different options that some do take\u2014that there will be, as outlined in clause 1(2)(b) of Schedule 1, a number of employees who basically will cease, in terms of their employment with a provider, as a result of the transfer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo as I understand, it\u2019s a circumstance where the water services are being transferred across to a water service provider. As a result of that, it means that there will be some employees who will be retained as part of that transfer process, and there will be some that are not retained. For those whose employment will cease as a result of the transfer under clause 1(2)(b) of Schedule 1, there are some following criteria that actually identify, for those who do receive an offer of employment, what happens in certain circumstances. Now, the interesting thing around that is there is this reference that where the offer for employment is for, substantially, the same position as the position the employee held at the previous provider prior to the transfer, that, basically, there would be no entitlement to any additional benefit. OK, I understand that. But my question for the Minister is: what specifically guides the criteria outlined in clause 1(3)(a), (b), and (c) of Schedule 1? I\u2019m happy to yield my time for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5d48677172049c19d5509a2d2aff0b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5d48677172049c19d5509a2d2aff0b4\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E So the provisions within the Local Government Act deal with the rights protections in regards to collective contracts, and those apply irrespective of where these individuals will transfer to. It\u2019s obviously acknowledged that a large number of local government employees are under these type of arrangements and the mechanisms I\u2019ve outlined. To the question that the member\u2019s asking\u2014what over-pins that\u2014well, the provisions from the Local Government Act over-pin it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u00224c5a87f1f87d42a5812ce4adfb59bbda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c5a87f1f87d42a5812ce4adfb59bbda\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb47289ce70e4c4ea26876df769cb644\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb47289ce70e4c4ea26876df769cb644\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I think my colleague Tangi Utikere might have some more to say on this Schedule 1 as well. I have a question around clause 5 of Schedule 1\u2014so that\u2019s at page 337\u2014and it\u2019s: can the Minister of Local Government explain why the phrase \u201Cwater service provider\u201D is used in subclause (2) and subclause (1) but not subclause (3)? So I will explain, and I note that both these terms are defined. \u201CWater service provider\u201D can mean a range of different things, and a \u201Cwater organisation\u201D has a specific meaning as well, and that can include a range of different groupings. \u201CWater organisation\u201D includes a council-control organisation\u2014and there are some commencement dates in that\u2014an Auckland water organisation, as well as an organisation established under section 36, whereas a \u201Cwater service provider\u201D includes a territorial authority that has not transferred all of its responsibilities, a water organisation to which a territorial authority has transferred responsibility, a regional council that hasn\u2019t transferred responsibility, and an Auckland water organisation. So there seems to be a lot of crossover between the definitions of \u201Cwater organisation\u201D and \u201Cwater service provider\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen going to clause 5 in Schedule 1, we have subclauses (1) and (2) talking about a water services provider and the commencement dates for those, when they have to produce their first water services strategy. But then the Finance and Expenditure Committee has added in subclause (3) to say that those timings don\u2019t apply for a water organisation that is established after the date on which this clause comes into effect. I can understand the rationale for having a different timing there, so that\u2019s not my question. The question is: why is subclause (3) only referring to a water organisation and not a water service provider, and does the Minister want to comment more generally on those two definitions back in the definition clause\u2014also in Part 1\u2014about a \u201Cwater organisation\u201D and \u201Cwater service provider\u201D, and when they overlap and when they don\u2019t overlap, and why there\u2019s that difference in terms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00229c2ee7cf876d4b9e896807e55900f3fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c2ee7cf876d4b9e896807e55900f3fd\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I do have a final question. I promise this is the final question for Part 1, but I\u2019m just taking advice from the Chair that we need to ask all of the questions relating to Schedule 1 here at this moment, rather than in the relevant sections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo I have a question for the Minister of Local Government regarding clause 7 of Schedule 1. This is on page 338. This is about the \u201CAlternative form of funding impact statement\u201D. Now, understanding that when we\u2019re looking at other clauses, which will be mentioned a little bit later, there are two alternative ways\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002216c2adc254a6401aa9a4debe23db3504\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216c2adc254a6401aa9a4debe23db3504\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Did you say page 338? That looks like it\u2019s in Schedule 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0c439049bcd48548b49aed8057f85fa\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Page 338. That is Schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4dea14d9aaf4618b8e3497912d7a5a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4dea14d9aaf4618b8e3497912d7a5a0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you on the bill? Sorry, we\u2019ve got the revision-tracked bill. Sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022324759599eb34202a1dc8743a19c645e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Schedule 1, Part 1, clause 7. Now, it does give the option for two alternative ways for the funding impact statement. One of them is in terms of the water services strategy as a financial matter; the other one is around a funding impact statement. But I\u2019m curious about clause 7(2), which says that a water service provider must provide the funding impact statement for the purposes of preparing a water services strategy\u2014form 2\u2014or for the purposes of preparing a water services annual report\u2014form 4. I can\u2019t see form 2 or form 4 in this bill, so I\u2019m just wanting to check with the Minister, if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind pointing to where we can find form 2 and form\u00A04.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9b820c26b5146d19c071654719b2957\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9b820c26b5146d19c071654719b2957\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to take this session offline, on exactly the point and page, but I can clarify the Schedule 1, clause 7 aspect, which is primarily around the transitional arrangements for\u2014where you\u2019ve got an example of an existing council-controlled organisation that is going to become a water organisation upon commencement, basically, those aspects of detail, in terms of the board adopting a document and within the time period, is what that clause of that Schedule is outlining primarily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8523fc9e61d4bbca0b0be70139b1c61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8523fc9e61d4bbca0b0be70139b1c61\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The committee will resume tomorrow at 9 a.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.59 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729a834ef69878944dbb08e2cc6f197e0d7000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022640367b5c09541c7b3c59af43ab8c005\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 29 JULY 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002242ac4f1767bd42ebba785e1bbcdbd3a6\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 30 July 2025)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c80a591531464872b277e6a70d9e648b\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Water Services) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a4ea8d7385a046e2bd56bcd26c91e9dc\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022135ae3abe0d74a3ca516f79a0834320f\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd80e551aad945f2ae139fc741455d2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd80e551aad945f2ae139fc741455d2f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The committee is resumed. Members, when we suspended last night, we were considering the Local Government (Water Services) Bill, and we were debating Part 1. Part 1 of the debate is on clauses 3 to 6A, \u201CPreliminary provisions\u201D, and Schedule 1. The question, again, is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002231d2662073034bce850c5575d3897d9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231d2662073034bce850c5575d3897d9e\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and good morning. It\u2019s good to be able to resume contributions and questions in Part 1 of what is a fairly lengthy bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to just reiterate, perhaps for the Minister of Local Government\u2019s benefit and other colleagues, the position that we were heading down when we were considering this late last night. We had some issues with the flexibility component that the Minister has started to address, not necessarily the sustainability part, and how that might be undermined by that sense of bitsy-ism or fragmentation of the possible service delivery opportunities. We still stand by the tabled amendment by Lan Pham\u2014or amendments, plural\u2014particularly around the environmental standards and the desire of the Minister to be able to intervene, if necessary, but only where there is an actual issue\u2014not a perceived issue, but an actual issue\u2014when it comes to water service delivery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I didn\u2019t get a chance to touch on last was the Labour Party\u2019s position on where the environmental objectives sit in the purpose. It\u2019s a little bit light, unfortunately, for our liking here. We would like to see a little bit more focus in that area. My question to the Minister, in that regard, is: why has he not sought to beef up the environmental protectional standards as part of the purpose clause in Part 1 of this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI look forward, perhaps, to the Minister providing a response around the question that still has not been addressed fully, and that is the interpretation clause, whether there is a risk there that there is an opportunity for what\u2019s sought to be achieved here to be undermined as a result of the risk around inconsistent application for councils across there. I note the Minister is seeking advice, but perhaps he\u2019ll be able to answer that question shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI do think that it is very interesting that this is a bill that has the generic inclusion around \u201CThis is an Act that binds the Crown\u201D. Now, we\u2019ve got no issue with that; however, this might be a bill that binds the Crown but fails to bind it to any financial support for councils around the country, so there is that level of inconsistency there. I\u2019d invite the Minister to, perhaps, respond to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe final point I\u2019d like to raise\u2014and this goes back to Dr Xu-Nan\u2019s contribution late last night around Schedule 1, because there are still some issues with Schedule 1\u2014is that I\u2019d like to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to clause 8(4) in Schedule 1. Now, this is a component that, basically, is about a time period where a transfer is to be entered into\u2014an agreement around transfer from one council organisation through to another. What\u2019s interesting is that when this bill came before the House, it had no specific time frame associated with this particular clause. What we see now in this schedule is the introduction of a time frame within which the clause must actually come into effect, and that\u2019s within three years. It\u2019s specified there: \u201CWithin 3 years after the date on which this clause comes into [effect],\u201D then there is a requirement that the territorial authority must enter into under paragraph (a) and (b). So my question to the Minister is: why are we now seeing a time frame for, effectively, the trigger for this particular course of action being introduced into Schedule 1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae0b7f42fb16419f8e58de5bfc76284f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae0b7f42fb16419f8e58de5bfc76284f\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, members, for the questions. In regards to the points raised by both aspects of the Opposition around environmental standards, I don\u2019t want to go into other parts of the bill, but for those that have read the bill, they will see that in the next part they cover off quite clearly the objectives of water services providers. I\u2019m just simply noting that for navigation for those that are working their way through the bill, but they are covered there and deal with the questions that have been asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe62f7e0b41c408c93567f6c3134f4ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe62f7e0b41c408c93567f6c3134f4ab\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair, and t\u0113n\u0101 koe, Minita. I was reflecting on the questions I asked last night, and I\u2019ve also been contacted. There were people watching our questions about water services last night, as well, and I don\u2019t feel that I got any answer to whether small settlements like P\u014Drangahau were considered urban or not in the context. I don\u2019t consider that I really received answers about the permeability and design issues and why the transport corridor was unilaterally ruled out, given that the corridor is often bigger than the road. I appreciate that the Minister is aiming to answer people\u2019s questions\u2014he\u2019s not brushing us off; he\u2019s not treating them as unimportant\u2014but, on reflection, what I asked and what got answered last night, I wonder if he could be a little fuller in his response. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc4ba4e19ef24df98e506fac286320ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc4ba4e19ef24df98e506fac286320ab\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m still interested in this difference between \u201Cwater organisation\u201D and \u201Cwater service provider\u201D. I note that the Minister of Local Government just said there\u2019s more to come on water service providers, but there must be a reason why there are these two quite separate definitions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow going to Schedule 1, at clause 8, that my colleague Tangi Utikere was just talking about, council-controlled organisations are deemed to be water organisations, and so there are some time frames associated with that in clause 8, and this is at page 339. But then you go back to the definition of \u201Cwater organisation\u201D in clause 4 of the bill, and the definition at (b) means \u201Ca council-controlled organisation that,\u2014(i) immediately before the commencement of this Act \u2026 was providing water services or had been established for the purpose of providing water services;\u201D, so it catches both the existing council-controlled organisations and the ones that are being set up. That same wording is repeated in clause 8(1)(a) of Schedule 1, which deems those council-controlled organisations to be a water organisation. I\u2019m interested in why a deeming provision is needed in this schedule\u2014noting that there are some other time frames associated with that, that Tangi Utikere was talking about\u2014when it appears to be covered off in the definitions of a water organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, given that I\u2019m sure we will soon go to the other parts of the bill, if he could give a more fulsome comment on the importance of these terms, \u201Cwater organisation\u201D versus \u201Cwater service provider\u201D, and how they\u2019re different and how that\u2019s reflected through the drafting of the bill, I think that would be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002275c5279016f341ee886285338f996e87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275c5279016f341ee886285338f996e87\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Just in response to the questions in regards to the urban-rural portion and also the points around rural connections, rural connections is covered in future parts of the bill, not the part we\u2019re currently discussing, and I\u2019m happy to answer it when we get to that point. The context around what is the definition of urban and rural\u2014primarily, that is a determination made by and through the district plans of the relevant councils, and so that\u2019s where that aspect is dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002203d5e9253b0f4e74aa6ebe572cd01df7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203d5e9253b0f4e74aa6ebe572cd01df7\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220ff245c56d034266b27cb7e70c491469\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00229502e12439424addbb9d915149160a9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229502e12439424addbb9d915149160a9b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 346, amending clause 3(a)(ii), is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 346 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a14f40d2df8d4cb798b8f9862e917450\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00228f1c2a0aec5c404b9de6639296c4c33f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f1c2a0aec5c404b9de6639296c4c33f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 amendment to clause 3 to insert new paragraph (aa) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b8c9a33382cb4220bc91e672d55644df\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb7183d9f24848b1a26f86378a038101\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb7183d9f24848b1a26f86378a038101\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Lan Pham\u2019s two tabled amendments to replace clause\u00A03(b)(i) are both out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ELan Pham\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 3 to insert new paragraph (c) is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 amendment to replace clause 6A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022331b9790fd474983888c989049c84e24\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c8f46ae27ddc497589843d5ef48fb74a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1, as amended, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1, as amended, agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd76ff3ff4d742e297cc7fea4435f5de\u0022\u003EPart 2  Structural arrangements for providing water services\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002298c05b6827e34c20b166e1c7369da4e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298c05b6827e34c20b166e1c7369da4e8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to the debate on Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 7 to 58H, \u201CStructural arrangements for providing water services\u201D, and Schedule 2. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EBefore I take a call, just to remind people, it is clauses 7 to 58H, and it would help the committee if you referred to the sections or clauses in your interventions, and the page number in the document that you\u2019re referring to, because it is quite a big document. That would be very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002287ebfd35e9ec45dcb5c671fd70326b2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287ebfd35e9ec45dcb5c671fd70326b2e\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. Meitaki maata. Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m happy to follow your direction in that space. It\u2019s the intention of Labour members, given your comment, sir, that it is a big document, to attempt to tackle this subpart by subpart, which seems to be a more conscious sort of effort to keep tabs on where things are. I\u2019ll restrict my contributions to Subpart 1 first, which I had noted is clauses 8 through to 30F.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is a really significant part of this bill. Effectively, this does set in train the arrangements for the provision of water services. From the outset\u2014and if you would like a specific reference, I\u2019ll do that\u2014clause 7 in particular is the outline of where things are heading, and so I\u2019ll restrict my comments and contributions to clause 7, which is on page 37 of the document that I\u2019m working off, which includes the report from the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EFundamentally, the position that we adopt is one of opposition to what is, clearly, a decentralised model, allowing councils to opt out of an opportunity for regional collaboration. Now, the Minister and his Government might take a different view and say that regional collaboration still exists. Well, the evidence that is currently before this House strongly signifies that that is far from the case. We have a number of councils that are going it alone. We have a number of councils that are in models that are going to cause significant hardship to ratepayers further down the track. So my very first question to the Minister, having prefaced that, is how he can continue to suggest that this is a model that does lead to regional collaboration. What incentivisation is there for any aspects of regional collaboration in this particular space? We will hear\u2014as part of this particular subpart, certainly from Labour members\u2014talk about the impact of, potentially, and questions around, the applicability of the proposals for their particular districts and areas around the country\u2014and they do vary, and that\u2019s accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI do hope that the Minister is not going to adopt a view of one where we have to wait and see in terms of when those decisions are taken. The public record does demonstrate that those decisions have already been taken, because they have been forced into, effectively, landing their water services delivery plan by 3 September, and we can talk about the role that the Minister may take, and I know that he is on the public record of indicating that it is his hope that regional collaboration does take place. But, Minister, this is a bill that does not incentivise\u2014where is the incentivisation in this bill that lends itself to councils actually wanting to work together? Where is it? It seems to be absent in the sense of no incentivisation for them to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe difficulty that we have, of course, is that there are a number of different councils that have a different number of rate bases\u2014that, fundamentally, is the way in which they generate revenue to meet costs. When it comes to that early first clause, clause 7, the outline of this, in terms of Subpart 1, how can he justify that there is a prudent approach to this, but also one that meets the various needs of different communities when it comes to water services and water provision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI think of the opportunities there that do exist around that, but also the regional accountability\u2014where is that? Where does the Minister see the regional accountability? He may very well say, \u201CWell, that\u2019s going to come later when it comes to the annual reports.\u201D We all know that annual reports are exactly that\u2014they\u2019re done on an annual basis. Where is the accountability on day seven, eight, nine, 37\u2014whatever\u2014where water services fail and that accountability doesn\u2019t exist?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the first aspect\u2014how he justifies the complexity of these arrangements where there was more certainty around collaboration in the former model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00226b7288ad572a4dab909cfde7aec3f1b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b7288ad572a4dab909cfde7aec3f1b3\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks very much, Mr Chair. Well, I\u2019ll be measured in my response to that, but it is ironic when the member Tangi Utikere is seeking clarification from me on where the incentives are. To translate that for those at home, that means \u201CWhere is the blank cheque from ratepayers\u2019 back pockets and taxpayers\u2019 pockets to pay for councils that aren\u2019t performing?\u201D That\u2019s just a translation for those at home that are watching. When he says, \u201CWhere are the incentives?\u201D, \u201CWhere is the magic money tree?\u201D is another way to say it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe reality is\u2014and we\u2019re not going to go through this\u2014we have a different position. Our key objective here is to ensure that councils are financially sustainable. We haven\u2019t dictated in terms of how they should structure it. It is for them to determine with their local communities, and that is the mechanism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe evidence, as we stand five weeks away from when the deadline for the plan is, is that the majority of councils will form together in regional groupings. That is the reality of where we\u2019re at, and those numbers are increasing and changing as we work. Guess what! That is without blank cheques being written by this Government in order to incentivise councils to get it. They\u2019ve done it off their own backs. They\u2019ve done it with their communities in conjunction with iwi M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe questions in regard to clause 7 in that context are points of difference between the two parties. I thought most people had moved on from that conversation after the election, because it was pretty clear that New Zealanders did not support the prior reform. We\u2019re in a new space. I think what every Kiwi wants is certainty around water infrastructure and investment, making sure those assets stay in local control, and making sure that those assets are financially sustainable, and that\u2019s what this plan will deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022803304d90f2d46df9c995672eb8978ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022803304d90f2d46df9c995672eb8978ae\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m really keen to pick up on the key aspects of Part\u00A02 and particularly those that relate to clauses 7 through to 11, because these all set out really clearly the different methods that councils can use and consider when they\u2019re actually thinking about what structure of service provision arrangements will work for them. It\u2019s talking about regions in which regional councils can actually play a role in these potential multi-council entities and the different methods for establishment and ownership and how that all works together under this Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe one thing that I\u2019m unsure about with all of these sections, and I\u2019d really appreciate the Minister providing some answers for councils\u2014because we\u2019re talking about these lack of incentives for them to actually work with their neighbours. I think, as someone who has been on a council previously, you want to know what all your options are. What was unclear, in all of these clauses, is what would actually happen if a council worked together in good faith with its neighbours to establish these multientity structures but then, for whatever reason, it\u2019s not working or they actually want to remove themselves from these entities. Can councils actually exit multi-entity water service providers or do they need the permission of all the shareholders\u2014i.e., all the other councils\u2014who are actually part of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EIt would be really good for the Minister to address this directly, particularly because we know councils are live in their consultation, in their considerations right now. Like the development of this bill, they are also moving at pace to make sure that they are setting up the right structures and have the right information and assessments to actually advise, deliberate, and then decide on what those structures are for their communities, but they need to know the end game, I guess. If, going into these aspects and entities in good faith, they do find that actually, ultimately, they\u2019re not in the best interests of their community, at what point in time they can actually remove themselves? Are there clear guidelines for this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI think, rather than councils using that as a kind of \u201Cget out of jail\u201D card if things go wrong, it might actually encourage them to be bolder and to make better decisions and to go further than they otherwise would if they don\u2019t need to be so cautious and feel like they need to have explored absolutely every avenue. They can be taking steps and exploring things, knowing that, if things actually turn out not so great for their community, they might be able to back out. I\u2019m really interested in the Minister pointing out where in the bill that happens. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9fadbf6001b44c8a69ffd2447269226\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9fadbf6001b44c8a69ffd2447269226\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I direct members to clause\u00A015 of Part 2, which outlines the objectives of water services providers. It links to the questions that were asked in the last section in regard to environmental safeguards and things. It\u2019s very clear there in 15(1)(a)(iii), (iv), and (v), those aspects around quality, of consumer expectations, and also regulatory requirements. That includes Resource Management Act regulatory as well as water quality services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe question is: do councils have options in terms of whether they stay in or out? Well, the short answer is: those are local decisions made by local councils, and, in short, the answer is yes. Likewise, on the flip side, you\u2019ve seen a number of councils announce structures that have the mechanism to allow other councils to be part of that in the future, which is the opposite to what the member was referring to in terms of going alone. The criteria and the incentive is, fundamentally, under this reform, that communities will have water services entities that are financially sustainable. That is the incentive, that is an enduring incentive, and the incentives and the objectives outlined in the objectives under clause 15 here outline the components and, in effect, the meat on the bone around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI think in terms of where we are and where we want to be in the future, having water services entities and water services across our communities delivered in a financially sustainable manner that meets water quality, environmental, and health quality standards is a fundamental step change in terms of the status quo, and this model will deliver that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00224b79f1bdd1a546f2b731e8b0ba5f3175\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b79f1bdd1a546f2b731e8b0ba5f3175\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to draw the committee\u2019s attention to some extraordinary statements that the Minister made in response to my colleague Tangi Utikere\u2019s first contribution in this part of the debate, in Part 2, when we were just looking at the outline part of this bill and trying to set up what is going on. Now, we\u2019re concerned here, obviously, about some of the financial matters that are going on. The Minister has used some interesting phrases and words. He said one of the objectives here is to provide good quality water\u2014we all buy into that\u2014but then he said, \u201CWhere is the blank cheque?\u201D He followed that up with \u201CWhere is the magic money tree?\u201D Where is the magical supply of good water? It doesn\u2019t come out of nowhere. The water that falls out of the sky might be quite good, but it actually needs to be treated. It actually needs to be put through pipes. It needs to arrive in people\u2019s houses. The waste water needs to be taken away safely and processed. The stormwater needs to go where it needs to go. The water has to go through a whole series of processes. Where is the magic water services provision tree?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, that is a Government that is, extraordinarily, going around saying, \u201CWe want rates caps\u201D. They are complaining about the fact that rates are contributing to inflation. At the same time, we have the Minister in the chair saying we\u2019ve got to somehow provide water for free. There is no blank cheque, he said. \u201CThere is no magic money tree.\u201D Who is going to pay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, the previous Government had a good solution in place. The central government was going to help with the cost of water provision. Instead of just putting an unfunded mandate onto local bodies, that this Government is doing, we were actually going to make a substantial financial contribution to ensure that when we turn the tap on, the water that comes out is safe to drink. That\u2019s what the people in Havelock North wanted\u2014water that was safe to drink\u2014and they didn\u2019t get it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere are people in this country who have been on boil water notices for two and three and four years. All they want is water that is safe to drink, but it does not come for free. The money has to come from somewhere. This Government is pushing that cost on to local bodies, at the same time as advocating for a rates cap. The cognitive dissonance is extraordinary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe Minister has opened this up by talking about \u201CWhere is the blank cheque? Where is the magic money tree?\u201D How is he going to resolve what we could politely call cognitive dissonance between all the things that that Government wants? These are simply contradictory imperatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s without even starting to think about the problem of orphan councils. There\u2019s a huge problem with orphan councils, councils which have been left out of these regional water bodies that are forming, councils that have been left to go it on their own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac2b067a62734c02a83f63a83e3bd9fe\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Probably left out because they decided to stay out\u2014ha, ha! They\u2019re voting to stay out, some of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4ed32a29b314ecba688d920d99cf6b9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d be careful over there, Mr Joseph Mooney, because one of the councils that is sitting there as an orphan council is the Queenstown Lakes District Council. The Queenstown Lakes District Council is in trouble because the rate of growth there is so much that they are having real difficulty providing for it. I would be careful talking about it in Kaipara. Kaipara is an orphan council. It\u2019s been left out of all the arrangements for water services councils off a rating base of just 12,000 rating units. How are they going to pay for water? This Government is just holding a cudgel over their heads, telling them they\u2019ve got to get with the party, telling them that they\u2019re going to have to pay for it somehow, and at the same time advocating for no rates increases. Those things do not add up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo the challenge for the Minister who said there is no blank cheque, who said there is no magic money tree\u2014Minister, where is the magic water tree?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00222ada14c8186945ce9954894e330160ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ada14c8186945ce9954894e330160ea\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, we maybe missed that, but I\u2019m just trying to work\u2014what clause was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b40ed81e508f4f6d9f8edc55f372fe7e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That was in response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u00220140192bf68a4d0684aee84deab69d0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220140192bf68a4d0684aee84deab69d0e\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. I just wanted to follow up, if the Minister of Local Government would like to elucidate some of his comments\u2014and I will try to keep the temperature a little cooler. I wonder if this inevitable focus is going to push much stronger user-pays at the expense of the public good. I wonder if the Minister would reflect on the fact that 18 councils have had their credit ratings downgraded, which doesn\u2019t just mean that new debt is going to be more expensive but existing debt is going to be more expensive, and it is perfectly reasonable to spread the costs of infrastructure over the years so that current ratepayers do not have all of the costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EIf we look at the parallels with roading infrastructure, central government makes the financial assistance rate available, which is variable by different governments, for different priorities\u2014State highways, of course, 100 percent; but local roads around about 50 percent, higher in some of the rural areas. This Government returns half of the waste levy to local governments\u2014I mean, not this Government; Governments ever since N\u00E1ndor T\u00E1nczos brought in that bill return it. So to dismiss the idea of partnership as some kind of money dream by councils, I find both inaccurate and patronising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI was quite keen to table\u2014and I\u2019ll ask for leave of the committee in a moment, but I just wanted to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to two graphs from my experience at Wellington City Council. Before I was mayor, I was a councillor there with the three waters portfolio. Can I assure you and people listening that councils took water very seriously. In 2009, we had a water conservation plan to try and avoid having the regional Whakatiki dam, and the per capita litres per year went down 2006-2007, went down 2007-2008, and down 2008-2009. We\u2019d gone from 18 percent water leaks, down to 12\u00A0percent. Here\u2019s a lovely graph. That can be found publicly, so maybe I don\u2019t want to table it. But if you also look at the amount of money that Wellington City put in\u2014and this is just the CAPEX for the three waters\u2014when I began, it was about $22 million to $23 million; it went up consistently. Whether it was Mayor Lester for Labour, whether it was Mayor Foster from New Zealand First, and then when it was Mayor Whanau, it increased dramatically. Now, that is not altogether consistent with what was reducing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EMy point is that the earthquakes of 2013 and 2016 put up the cost for fixing our pipes extraordinarily. Yes, there are issues, but what I want the Minister to address is how councils can possibly square limiting rate rises and fixing\u2014whether it is past investment, whether it is issues like floods, or whether it is issues like earthquakes\u2014with his view that we should not be increasing rates at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022d14d4309afce4acfafb3ca91a284628d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d14d4309afce4acfafb3ca91a284628d\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I must say, I am finding it difficult to be able to answer specific members\u2019 questions without a specific clause and general statement, but I do encourage\u2014if I do that, I will do my best to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe point was raised in regard to more generic terms around how we\u2019re funding it. I would simply point the member to the fact that a number of councils have already submitted their plans for water services entities, and they have been approved. That is a combination of go alone and also multi-council arrangements. There is a clear precedent for how this will and can work, and it\u2019s already happening in reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a77eac0b56834dfe942164c8fac300e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a77eac0b56834dfe942164c8fac300e9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just for further guidance for the committee as well, this is a debate and members are able to respond to the Minister of Local Government\u2019s remarks, but that has to be done within reason. Once you\u2019ve made your point, please come back to the bill, because it\u2019ll help this debate to flow more smoothly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022127b9dcaadfc4a04a96fd843d05c0f34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022127b9dcaadfc4a04a96fd843d05c0f34\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have a question in terms of the interaction between clause 8(2) and clause 9(4). Now, clause 8 is quite straightforward: territorial authorities are responsible for water services. But in subclause (2) they may discharge their responsibility under subclause (1) to a water organisation through a transfer agreement. I have some questions around transfer agreements a little bit later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOne of the things that is possibly contradictory, so I\u2019m looking for the Minister of Local Government\u2019s clarification\u2014and I see that submitters, particularly from local government, have also expressed similar concern around interpretation\u2014is in 8. Question number one: territorial authorities may discharge responsibility to a water organisation; they may not, despite there being a water organisation\u2014is that a correct interpretation of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EQuestion two: if a territorial authority discharges its responsibility to a water organisation, but clause 9(4) says that a territorial authority then continues to be responsible for ensuring provisions, albeit (4)(b) does say, \u201Cother party to the contract or arrangement\u201D\u2014I would assume that includes a water organisation. But the responsibility in that sense still lies with the territorial authority, and they are responsible for ensuring other parties exercise all regulatory requirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI guess the first question then\u2014just to recap\u2014is: by using \u201Cmay\u201D, is there a situation where there is a water organisation, but a territorial authority does not need to discharge the responsibility to it? And question two: if a territorial authority does in fact discharge its responsibility to a water organisation, how are they then still responsible and also needing to ensure that the other party to the contract or arrangement\u2014i.e., a water organisation\u2014exercises its regulatory requirement? Those are my two questions now, but just a signal to the Minister that I have some questions around transfer agreements later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00227adcd9d7692249fdaa500e12cce8180e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227adcd9d7692249fdaa500e12cce8180e\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I do want to respond briefly to the Minister of Local Government\u2019s response to the question I asked him around incentivisation, because what he has basically said to this committee is that \u201Cincentives\u201D means the magical money tree and the blank cheque. That is the message that he is sending to councils: that, actually, we have no magic money tree, we have no blank cheque\u2014although the decisions of this Government indicate that when it comes to tobacco lobbyists and others, they take a different approach to that. They take a different approach to that. What this Minister is basically confirming is that we are going to basically tie the hands of councils behind their backs and still expect them to do stuff, but we\u2019re not going to give them any funding for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EPerhaps I can rephrase the question for the Minister, which is still related to clause 7, and that is perhaps not what incentive but what support is the Government going to be giving to councils to deliver on the water reform needs that this council is expecting them to do\u2014not an incentive, but what is the support? I\u2019ll leave that with the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI move on now to clause 8 in Subpart 1, and my colleague the Hon Dr Deborah Russell has touched on this issue, which is not just colloquially known but is well known as \u201Corphan councils\u201D. Orphan councils\u2014those who are left to fend for themselves even though they may have wanted something different. Actually, when we look at the list of orphan councils that have been forced into becoming orphans, they are councils that have been forced into this particular decision because the neighbouring councils have already made their decision that they don\u2019t want to take on the additional costs and responsibilities that their ratepayers would have to bear as a result of having to upgrade water infrastructure needs in a neighbouring council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOne that I want to specifically ask the Minister about is whether he\u2019s concerned about these orphan councils. Minister, are you concerned about Queenstown Lakes District Council having to be an orphan council? I note that the local member of Parliament\u2014the person who is elected by that community to represent them\u2014is here in the Chamber today. Members, I\u2019m sure, would like to hear from him about what he is going to say about this water reform and what it means for his local community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228780758310464a1ca498c6efd314541a\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the bill! Back to the bill!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6f69a8e0bce4ee89f198330d47dd181\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t you worry, I\u2019m going to talk about Palmerston North in a moment. That\u2019s the community that\u2019s elected me to represent their needs, and I\u2019ll be talking about that. I\u2019m sure that other members around in the committee will want to share with the Minister and ask him directly how that is fair about what this Government is seeking to force on to councils without any support whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to Queenstown, in the absence of hearing from the local member himself, we\u2019ll have to fill that gap for him. It is a high-growth council, but it has a low ratepayer base. That is accepted. When we look at the level of debt that is projected to increase for that community, it is quite a significant increase in less than a decade from now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b56ce7cc9064cc590bb156d20a83f03\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re growing quickly. Have you paid attention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c7e0b157e04430b98199917f9ebfba0\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: So, Minister, my question is: what level of support\u2014what was that, Mr Mooney?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dd3a1e36f99451f80de242b0e8d9903\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re growing very quickly. Have you paid attention? There\u2019s a regional deal on the table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c500303b7f144da999b9941e005df79a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Take a call! Take a call!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022634251c82ad045aea303125402a57dea\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022845d7bc5c7844ba0af732bff8b9e7c06\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: We tried to take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201e1a3e0c5b34e34b871f56f20dd9bbe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I can offer a call if there\u2019s going to be a substantial call\u2014fair enough. I don\u2019t want conversations across the Chamber. OK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022630af22fb13c4e90b989b7dcd9da4c20\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022912b55f752404e418e1934784b695601\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: He doesn\u2019t want to talk about his own electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d89638e146144a829667e994927f4afe\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s interesting that members are saying, \u201COh, he\u2019s not interested in talking about his own electorate.\u201D Look at the record, Mr Doocey. I\u2019m very happy to talk about my own electorate, whether it\u2019s about health, whether it\u2019s about transport, whether it\u2019s about all sorts of other things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, the interesting thing is that we\u2019re not hearing from members in this contribution or asking the Minister about what it is that meets their needs. We have Selwyn, for example; we have Waimakariri and others that are making decisions, yet we have members who are chirping away, not prepared to take substantive calls because they don\u2019t want this on the record. They do not want this on the record about what it means for their community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll get back to my question for the Minister, and that\u2019s about the orphan councils. When it comes to Queenstown, a significant portion of what that debt is going to be in the next 10 years\u2014over half, or nearly two-thirds, I understand\u2014is for water infrastructure needs. So what concern does the Minister have for these self-determined orphans that he and his Government are basically delivering in that space? What concern does he have for orphan councils that would like to have another choice but basically have no choice but to go it alone?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002258ef6c077ef84752a1fda5b442a8bf21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258ef6c077ef84752a1fda5b442a8bf21\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9f45add067541a0906ef5b14dae599d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9f45add067541a0906ef5b14dae599d\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. There is so much in this part that has serious implications for the bill, so it would be fantastic to be able to step through it. I would like to speak directly to\u2014as the Minister for Local Government pointed out\u2014the objectives of the water service providers. This is all about clause 15, which is on page 43 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, I note that the Minister directed us here when he was talking about, basically, the environmental considerations that exist within the bill, but what has been hugely disappointing about the select committee process and where it\u2019s landed is there are two key parts that were originally placed in this bill by this Government that were about the objectives of a water service provider to provide water services that, one, provide safe drinking water to consumers and, two, do not have adverse effects on the environment. Now, unfortunately, in the process of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, these have now been removed. So what I am putting on the Table today, and what I\u2019d love the Minister and the Government to consider, is actually reinserting both of those things. The whole point of that is that they are literally the objectives that should be at the heart of the entire point of what us and communities and councils are trying to do here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI really agree, and I\u2019d like the Minister\u2019s thoughts about the proposition that we had from several submitters, but particularly Water New Zealand, to actually strengthen these objectives. Water New Zealand thought that the recasting of them as obligations or requirements instead of objectives would actually be far more directive and far more clear for shareholders that they need to pick up on these when they\u2019re setting their statement of expectations and their water services strategy, so I\u2019m interested if the Minister has considered that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThen the first part I want to pick up on is the point around the removal of providing safe drinking water to consumers. I\u2019m actually really unclear where in the process this was actually removed, because I noted in an earlier version of the bill\u2014version 18\u2014that it still remains. I actually missed the very last meeting where we deliberated, so perhaps it happened there. Not only should it be put back in, but, if anything, it should be expanded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EAgain, Water New Zealand made it really clear why, and they talked about the whole picture of this not being about safe drinking water, but it actually needs to be about safe waste water and safe stormwater. They talked about how they would like to see these clear provisions when it comes to both environmental and public health, and they talked about the failure to do so in terms of treating and disposing of waste water. It can lead to these significant public health risks, which we have seen and do see, particularly when it comes to severe weather events, so they would like to see it expanded from just drinking water rather than removed entirely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe other aspect that I\u2019m suggesting is reinstating \u201Cdo not have adverse effects on the environment;\u201D. The reason for this is there were a lot of submitters who picked up on this and also talked about it. The fact is that this whole bill and the uplift in investment needs to be fit for purpose. It needs to be at a level of investment that actually delivers clear outcomes, not only for our communities but particularly for our environment. I know the rationale about there being a regulator and that they can do the environmental regulation and the pick-up of this\u2014Mr Chair, I\u2019d really like to just finish this call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00224cab8d746b8b4102a900921e99c097ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cab8d746b8b4102a900921e99c097ee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Watts, and then I\u2019ll come back to you to finish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022299e090fc5344350a617c18e94f74a03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022299e090fc5344350a617c18e94f74a03\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll respond to those questions the members are asking. First and foremost, to Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s questions in regard to clause 8(2), primarily what you\u2019re seeing play through there is flexibility within the bill. There are instances where a council is not required to have a water organisation, so that\u2019s why the word \u201Cmay\u201D is included there. Clause 9(4) does not apply if there is a water organisation, as is clarified in clause 9(3), which limits clause 9(4). That\u2019s the interplay between those two aspects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ETo the question that was raised by Tangi Utikere, in regard to \u201CWhat support?\u201D, the Government has a number of mechanisms in play to support councils. First and foremost, the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) provides, has provided, and continues to provide significant support to individual councils to help them in the preparation of their water services plans. We do have one council observer in play at the moment, which is coming to an end in Wellington, and we have DIA facilitators that are in certain regions working with those councils to bring them together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn terms of the funding and financing mechanism, which has been referred to, the mechanisms and tools available under the Local Government Funding Agency have been broadened, and they provide mechanisms in order to match the funding and financing for these entities or for individual councils, to match the asset life. One of the major challenges is the cost of infrastructure, and one of the major mechanisms in terms of the pressure on rates is that the funding of that infrastructure is done reasonably short term. The funding of the infrastructure should match its asset life. Water pipes last for maybe up to 100 years. We therefore need to spread that cost, because future generations will benefit alongside those here today. That\u2019s the fundamental complexity and opportunity within how you fund and finance local government. There\u2019s a wide range of points of difference in the current model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn terms of the questions from Lan Pham, in regard to clause 15(1)(a)(vi) and the challenge in regard to water environmental quality, it is very clear there that clause 15 that I\u2019ve referred to says, \u201Cmeet all regulatory requirements\u201D. It is fair to say that because of the importance of water quality for health and safety and the importance of the environmental, we have, and prior Governments also have, been supporters of the establishment of a water quality regulator that has powers of enforcement, powers to set consistent standards. This bill simply acknowledges that we have that vehicle. In addition, it\u2019s not us saying it\u2019s not important. Actually, the fact that we have that mechanism amplifies the critical importance of those two factors, which is, primarily, the interaction between this bill and those aspects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002297a9950fc8be4e1da4b6ebe676ecf59c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297a9950fc8be4e1da4b6ebe676ecf59c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to raise an issue\u2014we\u2019re still working on Subpart 1 of this really substantive part. I want to go to Subpart 1, clause 8. We\u2019ve had a little bit of discussion of clause 8, but not the particular subclause that I\u2019m interested in here, and I want to understand its interaction with clause 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIn clause 8, \u201CTerritorial authority responsible for providing water services\u201D, subclause (1) says that a territorial authority has to provide water services \u201Cin its district in accordance with this Act\u201D. But then subclause (3) says, \u201CDespite subsection (1), no person may require a territorial authority or water organisation to provide a water service to that person.\u201D That\u2019s got me really worried, and I want the Minister to explain how that fits with the objectives of a water services provider, which is to act in the best interests of current and future consumers, and so on, to support housing growth and urban development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI can just see a possibility here, and it is going to interact later on in Subpart 2 of this, with clause\u00A058F, \u201CPower to close down or transfer small water service\u201D. What say a water authority just decides it doesn\u2019t want to supply water any more to a particular consumer? Now, I can get that this clause might be in there so that if you\u2019ve got, say, a large commercial entity coming on board which wants to use water, but the local water services authority might perhaps say, \u201CLook, mate, sorry\u2014we can\u2019t actually supply water to you unless you contribute something to the upgrade of services.\u201D, and so on\u2014I can see that kind of thing happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut I can also see that a water services entity or a territorial authority might decide it just can\u2019t be bothered supplying water to a particular group of people. Now, that can be catered for, I think, under 58F\u2014we\u2019ll have to have a look at that when we get to that bit. But I can also see that being used in a somewhat punitive fashion. You can imagine a troublesome ratepayer\u2014and we all know who they are\u2014and I know it seems absurd, but a territorial authority might decide that they\u2019re just not going to supply water to that person any more. I can think of people who have been, if you like, troublesome ratepayers in my own area up in Auckland\u2014people who are continually on the side of local government. I\u2019m sure the members in this committee who have previously been on local body councils and entities will have the same people in mind, the people who write to them constantly who raise protests, and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat I want to understand from the Minister\u2014and it seems like an obscure possibility, but it is one\u2014is what protections are there in and around clause 8(3)? You can\u2019t require a territorial authority or water organisation to provide a water service; what protections are there around the territorial authority or water services provider to actually exercise that power reasonably? Now, there\u2019s stuff around small water services that we\u2019re coming to later on, but I can just envisage the capacity for something quite unreasonable to be done in that space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI\u2019m assuming the Minister has thought of this, and I want to understand what protections are in place, what lengths a person might have to go to if a territorial authority or a water services authority is being unreasonable in its decision not to supply water services. If the Minister could just take us through that and ensure that there are protections in place, particularly for ordinary people who don\u2019t have the resources to go to war with the local council. You always say, you know, don\u2019t fight against city hall\u2014well, you can see something going on here, in that regard. So if the Minister could just turn his attention to that for a moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00229de8e53c7c2948dab701b70c34cc9ebb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229de8e53c7c2948dab701b70c34cc9ebb\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I refer the member to clause 58F(3)(b), which outlines that any of these decisions to exercise the closure would need input from the chief Medical Officer of Health, which obviously has considerations around the community. Clause\u00A058F(3)(c) then outlines that there needs to be due process including evaluation, reviews, and adequate consideration in regard to that. Lastly, clause 58F(3)(d) ensures that the provision of all of that analysis and all of that decision making is in the public domain, which is another mechanism. So there are three examples of, in effect, belts and braces around that decision that a water entity would need to undertake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022c93ee0e06b9c43d1b239e65a1ec6416b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c93ee0e06b9c43d1b239e65a1ec6416b\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a8f66897e124d10bf133e3b70ecf174\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f38b89fb0534dbe811b7303eab3bb61\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY\u003C/span\u003E: Just a very brief question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225148f7b3f02c4a5891d29f5b2e27ad7f\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022484cba56e05c498dba5a8ee02f21f185\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I said Joseph Mooney. Sit down. Joseph Mooney has got the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248eb864858104ceeae00ddf098ce62f9\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014just to respond to some of the, frankly, misinformed comments that we heard earlier about the Queenstown Lakes District Council. Can the Minister just confirm that councils aren\u2019t forced to consider different options, but they have different options, and in that case the Queenstown Lakes District Council has assessed a range of available options and settled on the one they wanted to look at, which was the water services council-control organisation, which they consulted on with their community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022abf1c781f50843dcb3e6e0c7befa2aef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abf1c781f50843dcb3e6e0c7befa2aef\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I can confirm for the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00221e7832762d614d6dab8378e1e97a3438\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e7832762d614d6dab8378e1e97a3438\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call and to ask a couple of questions of the Minister of Local Government. Can I also just put on record what an excellent local MP for Palmerston North, Tangi Utikere, we have sitting next to me. I\u2019ve known the member for over 30 years, and I can assure you that all he ever does is talk about Palmerston North ad nauseam\u2014so an excellent local MP, I can assure you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI have some questions for the Minister, specifically coming back to clause 9 around how services are provided under the legislation. What particularly interests me is there is an issue between the decisions that have been made by the three councils across the top of the South, particularly the Nelson and Tasman councils, that is actually at odds with how some of the water services are provided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThis is going to cause some challenges, in my view, around where the accountability sits, where the investment comes, and it becomes inefficient, actually. The big example we can speak to is the Nelson Regional Sewerage Business Unit, which is a shared service between the Nelson and Tasman councils. It\u2019s the waste-water treatment plant in that area. For many years, our councils have actually worked together very well on water services and sharing those services and sharing decision making. Yet under this legislation, in terms of setting up the provision of water services, they\u2019re staying separated. What concerns me is that that ultimately leads to greater costs to the ratepayer\u2014they don\u2019t get the economies of scale of having just one organisation and entity that\u2019s set up on behalf of the two councils, and it becomes inefficient. So that\u2019s going to essentially lead to greater costs for ratepayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe other opportunity is that we\u2019ve had massive investment in a particular project, the Waimea Dam, which is partially owned by Tasman District Council but actually has real benefit to Nelson City Council. There is some concern from the Tasman side that Nelson actually benefits through water provision through the dam but hasn\u2019t contributed very much at all through its contribution. Around a $5 million contribution\u2014that\u2019s the sole contribution for that infrastructure. There could have been an opportunity under this legislation and under the roll-out of it to ensure there\u2019s actually fairness across Nelson and Tasman around contributing to the costs of the dam. The people of Nelson have actually managed to get access to very, very cheap water infrastructure because of the way that has been overseen and governed, and that\u2019s not going to change. Is that actually fair for the people of Tasman?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe other issue I just want to put on record is that Tasman is going to have significant infrastructure costs to recover from the recent damage. That\u2019s transport, but also there is water services infrastructure that\u2019s going to need to be both fixed and improved. Tasman is seriously struggling in terms of its ability to access capital at the moment. Based on the Minister\u2019s earlier comments about there not being a magic money tree, how exactly can Tasman District Council in particular have some certainty and some opportunities to actually fund significant infrastructure going forward? The fact that they are going alone\u2014we have three orphan councils across the top of the South. Tasman is one of the lowest areas in New Zealand in terms of productivity, in terms of incomes\u2014a huge rural area with significant amounts of infrastructure that\u2019s going to need upgrading, replacing, and fixing, but a really small rating base, when you look at it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EParts of the Tasman district fall in my electorate of Nelson, but the people of Tasman are going to face a significant burden on their rates over coming years. Under this set-up, there\u2019s no requirement, even though Nelson and Tasman are joined at the hip and work together on so many issues. We could have got some real efficiencies and collectively driven down costs for the whole region by actually having a joined-up water services provision. It\u2019s common sense. So where\u2019s the common sense? There isn\u2019t any in this legislation. Where\u2019s the support going to come for the people of Tasman over the coming years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c256f8beed884fab83ed5d890fb5bf50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c256f8beed884fab83ed5d890fb5bf50\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take another call\u2014I\u2019m not going to take a closure motion just yet. Before we proceed, I did note that the previous Chair alerted members to refer to the part and clause number that is being debated at the time, because the purpose of this is to interrogate the bill. I\u2019m just alerting people to that fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u00227df1ba22e7db4321b984acd01bbe0f1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227df1ba22e7db4321b984acd01bbe0f1e\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to refer to clause 10 in this part, about transport corridors. I\u2019m wanting to follow up on a submission that Water New Zealand made on this bill. In particular, it says here that a council should not transfer the ownership or control of any transport corridor stormwater infrastructure. So my first question to the Minister is: how is this going to work with any kind of integrated catchment planning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EAnother question would be\u2014I mean, a lot of transport corridors are the overland water route in the floods. Because of the way that our vehicles, whether it\u2019s the tyres, whether it\u2019s oil leaks, whatever, add contaminants to the stormwater\u2014who is going to be responsible for that? Is it Waka Kotahi? Is it KiwiRail? We\u2019ve talked about transport corridors mainly in terms of roading, but, of course, transport corridors include rail corridors, and, of course, if my colleague Julie Anne Genter has her way, there will be a lot more trains going along those\u2014possibly, the Hon Winston Peters as well. The delineation of assets and ownership is complex, but the responsibilities for stormwater really ought to be clarified, in my view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to also ask the Minister to clarify clause 10. If you can\u2019t transfer ownership or control, can you choose to contract with a water organisation\u2014a water organisation could be a trust or it could be a council-controlled organisation\u2014to manage the transport corridor stormwater network? There we\u2019ve got one of the subclauses in clause 9 looking at how they can contract for management across the whole of the catchment network. I look forward to hearing the Minister\u2019s points on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00222c72d8d02b3845da98bf2a50a207f89e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c72d8d02b3845da98bf2a50a207f89e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. In regard to the questions on clauses 9 and 10 by the member in regard to transport corridors, basically what the bill recognises and balances is that in many parts of rural and provincial New Zealand in particular, the transport corridor is also the stormwater corridor. However, obviously, having duplicate control and ownership is not an optimal state, so what the bill allows is that councils can allocate management and operational responsibilities of those transport corridors to the water services entity but not the ownership aspect of that, and I think that is reasonable. Its primary purpose is transport, acknowledging a secondary is stormwater, and in rural or provincial the ratios are much higher than in other aspects. So that\u2019s the flexibility that\u2019s implemented as part of those two clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the questions around clause 9 in regards to the Tasman district, fundamentally the way in which the legislation is set up is that it is for that council and its ratepayers to make a decision in terms of the type of entity structure in which it chooses. They have not at this point submitted their draft plans. I can\u2019t comment in regards to what that looks like, but we understand that that is very well advanced and will be coming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe point around why they are not forming a regional entity\u2014well, our mechanism is deliberately structured so that that is a decision for local communities between the Nelson community and the Tasman community, potentially. I can\u2019t speak for them, but as the member is a local advocate on that side of it and is obviously very keenly supportive of more regionalisation for the benefits in which she\u2019s outlined\u2014which no doubt, you know, are reasonable\u2014then that\u2019s the level at which it needs to be determined by the communities in order to come up with that entity structure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002238d7ec44193b40a1adb81d722b504712\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238d7ec44193b40a1adb81d722b504712\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair. Thank you. I want to continue on this line of questioning around clause 10 and the expectation of transport corridors. I come from the perspective of New Plymouth and New Plymouth District Council. I was listening to the contribution from my Green colleague and from this side of the floor and I was looking up what New Plymouth District Council actually was asking. I\u2019ve talked to them about clarity and the challenge they have when looking at clause 10, which is the transport corridors, and they say\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CClarification and clear directive of who is responsible for ownership, operation, maintenance of stormwater networks within the transport corridors is required.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s the thing around ownership\u2014you\u2019ve discussed that; you\u2019ve given us some sort of an answer\u2014but then there\u2019s the operation and maintenance. As I look through clause 10 and look at the preamble on it, it does explain a little bit about what this is, but the challenge for New Plymouth and, I\u2019m sure, for other councils is around when you look\u2014because they\u2019ve got so many levers and so many responsibilities to be playing. There\u2019s integrated transport planning and what that looks like and where that fits in with a piece of legislation like this. The expectation for the transport corridor\u2014is there clarity in the way this clause is written around who the owner is but also around the operation and maintenance of that space?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThen I continue and look at the responsibility when it comes to transport corridors and integrated plans and what other services are provided on many of these roads, and I look at the challenge for another regional council in my area, which is Stratford District Council. Stratford District Council is a mighty small council. I think, off the top of my head, just over 10,000 residents live in the Stratford district. There\u2019s around about, I think, 3,000 dwellings. In terms of their voter base, they have some real challenges. Recently, the council did some serious work around infrastructure, around transport, around a subdivision. They built a new subdivision. It was council supported and funded, but, of course, there\u2019s the infrastructure around the transport corridors into those spaces, then the stormwater, then the drinking water, as well as, of course, the power and the other infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EIf we look at what came back from the select committee, there\u2019s a whole lot that\u2019s been removed. We have clause 10, the expectation on the transport corridor. We have subclauses (1) and (2), but then (3) has been removed. I\u2019m just concerned, as I look at my colleagues from Stratford and I look at what the New Plymouth District Council is saying about clarification and a clear directive\u2014can the Minister assure this committee that what the Minister is doing in this piece of legislation will clarify, will be clear, will be directive around ownership, around operation, and around maintenance of the stormwater networks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe63690ea956415badb5caf709bd4503\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe63690ea956415badb5caf709bd4503\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, so the clause that the member\u2019s referring to does articulate the points that I\u2019ve noted already in my prior response in regards to the ability to allocate operational and management responsibilities in regards to that. The questions raised by the member in regards to arrangements for transport corridors\u2014just for the purpose of helping the member\u2014that is part of the next part, Part 3, clause 176, so I won\u2019t answer it here and I will in the next part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u0022696a448ea65e4649909a7fb07ae2d328\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022696a448ea65e4649909a7fb07ae2d328\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. I seek leave to table two graphs that I referred to in a previous question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0c93254dcde4048a8afe1e871bccfa6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Are they not publicly available?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246458502318642abbe1322dbc3f87faa\u0022\u003ECelia Wade-Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Not in this form, no. There was quite a lot of research to pull this together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022468ee40d3626439fbacbb2320d475f1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022468ee40d3626439fbacbb2320d475f1d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u002204380c90980d4d4ebbb541fa3a7ee810\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204380c90980d4d4ebbb541fa3a7ee810\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee2183593e5f444087f4e3af5f836dc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee2183593e5f444087f4e3af5f836dc9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: In the short time I\u2019ve been here I\u2019ve heard some repetition, so I\u2019m just encouraging members that we need new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00223522a860fdb043599c01fde5a2fdceb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223522a860fdb043599c01fde5a2fdceb5\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I have new material I\u2019d like to refer, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e7da393f0a04532ba418ed220c6fb3a\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Have you got new graphs, though?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213ebca1420fb4062a679618773fa28da\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not of that calibre as Celia Wade-Brown. I have graphs in my mind\u2014you\u2019d know about that. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e1f4fe2d0ab4cbcba93e70f79ac4c15\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e95cc402f43499fb8e31a497c74a753\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d like to talk to clause 16, please\u2014\u201CFinancial principles for water service providers\u201D, page 44. This is a very important clause in so far as it may serve to have the effect of imputing an orientation of a water provider around its financial view of its role over its public service view of its role. I specifically have a question regarding clause 16(1)(a). The wording says, \u201C(1) A water service provider must act in accordance with the following financial principles:\u201D, and under (a), it ends with \u201Cproviding for growth\u201D. My question to the Minister is: in what sense does that clause mean growth? Does it mean economic growth, financial growth, or does it mean population growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s an important thing to understand, because there\u2019s a colon after clause 16(1)(a), after which comes (b), (c), and (d), and paragraph (c) says, \u201Cthe provider\u2019s revenue and funding (including from charges), expenses, and dividends (if applicable) must be transparent to the public:\u201D. I think that there is a risk that if the interpretation of that term \u201Cgrowth\u201D there is financial growth\u2014and it\u2019s important to clarify what the sense of growth has meant\u2014then the implication might be that dividends are an important part of the financial principles under which a water service provider should operate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThere was clear feedback in submissions against the reference to dividends. Multiple submissions, including from councils and NGOs, disagreed with allowing water organisations to provide dividend payments to the shareholders. I\u2019d appreciate also, as a second question, that the Minister clarify why there was a decision to include dividends and, furthermore, the extent to which it contradicts the Local Government (Auckland Council) Act 2009, which prohibits the payment of dividends from Watercare to Auckland Council\u2014for good reason, because\u2014I remember this very well\u2014there was an extensive and rightful public debate about the first and essential purpose of a water provider being to provide safe, potable water to its constituents. The idea that it should be trying to make a dividend out of it was very concerning. There were significant concerns at the time around it being a precursor to privatisation of those water providers, which we know has happened all across the world. So I would seek clarification on why the Minister has chosen to include dividends. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EFurthermore, I would like to refer to the tabled amendment of my colleague Lan Pham, which would solve the problem of the confusion around the mention of dividends by removing \u201Cdividends (if applicable)\u201D out of clause 16(1)(c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI also want to refer to the core purpose of a water service provider, which is to ensure that everyone has access to safe drinking water as a basic human right. It should not be imputed or implied by this clause that somehow a service provider has a duty to provide a dividend. That is a problematic imputation. I wonder if the people in Gore right now, who in the last two weeks have been told they can\u2019t drink their water because of nitrate contamination, know whether there will be a dividend returned to the council by that water service provider and whether that would be their expectation. What is the Minister\u2019s response to the effect of including dividends in a clause that says \u201Cproviding for growth\u201D in so far as it distorts the primary purpose and focus of a water provider, which is to provide safe, clean drinking water to the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI also refer in that regard to the tabled amendment of my colleague earlier to clause 15, which outlines that that should be clearly stated\u2014that their task is to provide safe drinking water to consumers and that it does not have an adverse effect on the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00229ca6044d21d9435dba139dc4778a5e77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ca6044d21d9435dba139dc4778a5e77\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E That\u2019s a reasonable question in the context of entities and the way in which they operate. Under the current status quo, in the model under prior Governments, there are already council-controlled organisation water entities that are operational. I think, in a Christchurch sense, in terms of Citycare, which already has mechanisms in play that have the ability, should they choose to do so, to provide dividends back into their council. Those entities are accountable to the ratepayer, and so they are the controls on mechanism in place, but the current status quo already has that mechanism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhat is being done by this point in the legislation, which is the point the member raised around the distortion effect\u2014if you look at clause 16(3)(b), it actually provides a clear mechanism: \u201CThe organisation must not pay a dividend\u201D, etc., etc., and it refers back to clause 16(1)(b), which ensures that the revenue is being spent on providing the core purpose of the entity. So that aspect there deals as a protection mechanism to counteract, you know, potentially, a scenario that the member is saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAt the end of the day, some entities already provide dividends back to the councils, but the way in which they do so is that they are accountable to the ratepayers. At the end of the day, ratepayers have a decision in regards to that, and they can convey that through to the councils in terms of their preference, but it simply reflects the status quo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00229c1d71452e4149ba8dcd6525c495304e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c1d71452e4149ba8dcd6525c495304e\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, thank you also for the earlier guidance around repetition. I\u2019m sure you may be aware that the Opposition is being very purposeful in its approach to this part and we\u2019ve stuck strictly to Subpart 1, and we\u2019re very happy to move on to Subpart 2. But it would be helpful to get some guidance if that is the case, although there are a number of other clauses that I\u2019d like to touch on as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBefore I do that, can I just thank Mr Mooney for taking a call in this debate. The point, though, still remains in that there are councils, such as the one that he has alluded to, that still have little to no choice when they are basically left on their own\u2014not being able to collaborate with other councils because the other councils don\u2019t want them. So I\u2019ll make that particular point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to ask a question for the Minister of Local Government. This relates to clause 11, and it is in a similar vein, albeit a different clause, to the question that my colleague Dr Russell touched on, and that really is around the transfer opportunities and the level of transparency and awareness around that. My question to the Minister for clause 11, which is around the agreements that would be in place for transfers with a water organisation, is how he expects the transparency aspect to play out. How does he expect the public accountability in those agreements to be exactly that\u2014public? Now, the answer to that could be perhaps that, well, that\u2019s a matter for the council. None the less, the Minister does have some intervention rights and opportunities, and so my question is, very simply, around that one\u2014around how he intends to ensure that there is a level of transparency in the transfer or transition agreements that would sort of flow from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOne thing I have not had a chance to speak to, and it hasn\u2019t been addressed yet, is one of the Amendment Papers that is in my name, and it has been circulated well in advance of today\u2019s session, and it is Amendment Paper 337. Now, this would seek to amend clause 9. It is a very simplistic course of action that this amendment would take, but the implications, I think, would lend itself to encouraging regional collaboration. What it seeks to do is, basically, to delete paragraph (a) within clause 9(1). It basically rules out as an option the ability for an authority to provide the water services itself directly. So in the case of Queenstown, perhaps, it would still be an opportunity to enter into an agreement but would not allow councils to in-house have an opportunity to deliver on this. I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s thoughts around my Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI do believe that would, in some circumstances, encourage a further level of conversation with other councils and may invite further regional collaboration. I know the Minister has said, well, that\u2019s a matter for councils to think about in terms of which one they choose. But is the Minister open to supporting the Amendment Paper? He might have information based on the plans that have been delivered well in advance of that 3 September deadline around how many of those are actually looking to adopt an approach which is providing the water services themselves in-house directly. So I\u2019ll look forward to the Minister\u2019s response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0fc97cf33a24e3d9db75786a75b427c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0fc97cf33a24e3d9db75786a75b427c\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have two short questions for the Minister. Firstly, thank you, Minister, for responding to my earlier question around clause 8(2). It\u2019s very helpful to know that it\u2019s not so much that the territorial authority can discharge responsibility if there is a water organisation, but the \u201Cmay\u201D implies that a territorial authority has a choice on whether to have a water organisation in the first place. That\u2019s very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI did mention to the Chair and to the Minister before that I have some questions around transfer agreements. A specific provision I want to focus on is clause 13, \u201CWhen new transfer agreement required\u201D. Now, the reason I want to focus on this part is, for example, in clause 11(2), the article \u201Ca water organisation\u201D has been adjusted to \u201Cthe water organisation\u201D. The use of the definite article instead of the indefinite article is significant in this case. I think we\u2019re seeing similar potential confusion in clause 13, where in clause 13\u2014can I just check with the Minister. In subclause (1) it mentions \u201Ca water organisation\u201D but in paragraph (a) it talks about transfer to \u201Cthe water organisation\u201D, so they are referring to the same organisation. I want to check with the Minister\u2014in these cases, is there a possibility to have more than one water organisation, and can a territorial authority transfer from one water organisation to another by means of this particular clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI do know that later on we\u2019ll see that clause 18 has limitations when it comes to contractual agreements, and the Minister before mentioned, further along, clause 58F, which does cover the closure of small water organisations, but we\u2019re not seeing, as part of clauses 11A, 12, and 13, what happens when a territorial authority wants to wrap up its ability\u2014unless there\u2019s another clause\u2014to have a water organisation or to retract the transfer agreement, if that makes sense. Can they just then move from one water organisation to the other? So those are my two questions around transfer agreements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy last question relates to clause 15(1)(a)(i) and (ii). I know the Minister has responded about subparagraph (ii), but in the departmental report, there was no recommendation to move subparagraph\u00A0(i), for providing safe drinking water to consumers, under subparagraph (vi). My question is on the rationale behind moving that. Providing safe drinking water to consumers is a straightforward principle or objective, but by moving it under subparagraph (vi), \u201C\u2026 providing drinking water that is safe for consumers;\u201D but prefacing it on having to meet regulatory requirements\u2014is meeting regulatory requirements comparable to being safe for consumers? What happens if the regulatory requirement itself may not be the same thing and we have, I guess, shrunk the scope of \u201Csafe drinking water for consumers;\u201D as a stand-alone objective. So those are my three questions. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00224622666b939d42bc9fdab11f5ee48e6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224622666b939d42bc9fdab11f5ee48e6d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to follow on from my colleague Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s questions around transfer arrangements and pick up on an aspect that he hasn\u2019t spoken about. If we look at clause 12(1)(b), it\u2019s talking about the purpose and effect of a transfer arrangement. They have to make sure that the effect of the agreement \u201Cis transparent\u201D\u2014to the board, obviously, and the territorial authority\u2014but then in paragraph (b), it says \u201Ccan be readily ascertained by the public.\u201D I just want to understand what the Minister of Local Government has in mind by that, because, frankly, board minutes and records of meetings and the like are not particularly\u2014I mean, they\u2019re available, one can search them out, one can google them. It takes a particular type of local body nerdy wonk to really go chasing after them. I\u2019m sure every member of this House would put themselves in that category.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENevertheless, to make sure it\u2019s \u201Creadily ascertained by the public\u201D\u2014I want to have an understanding from the Minister of how he envisaged that occurring and how the costs of that are to be borne. \u201CReadily ascertained\u201D\u2014it doesn\u2019t mean the local authorities are going to have to put a letter in every ratepayer\u2019s letterbox, but it does imply that ratepayers need to know that it\u2019s happening and then that they can find out the details of it in some pretty transparent way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s that first aspect of it, but relating to that \u201Creadily ascertained by the public\u201D, I just want to clarify, because clause 13 goes on to talk about when a new transfer agreement might be required. I want to be sure about something here. It talks about how a water organisation might change what it\u2019s doing\u2014maybe it\u2019s going to take a new entity; maybe Queenstown is going to get lucky after all and find that someone does want to talk to it\u2014so there\u2019d have to be a new arrangement formed. Obviously, that sort of arrangement matters to the ratepayers, to the shareholders, to the territorial authorities, and so on. There are a variety of provisions in clause 13 as to how that process is to go ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to be sure, however, that a transfer agreement in clause 12, which can be \u201Creadily ascertained by the public\u201D\u2014that a new transfer agreement is not some separate thing that doesn\u2019t have to be \u201Creadily ascertained by the public\u201D but actually falls under the clause 12 idea of what a transfer agreement is. Now, that, to me, is the obvious solution there\u2014that a new transfer agreement is not an entirely separate thing from a transfer agreement, which can be \u201Creadily ascertained by the public\u201D. If just the Minister could clarify that, in fact, with a new transfer arrangement, that is expected to be \u201Creadily ascertained by the public\u201D as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ETwo questions there. How does that \u201Creadily ascertainable\u201D work, and how does it apply to new transfer agreements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff4869bc85a74368bf221b653ed35c7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff4869bc85a74368bf221b653ed35c7a\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I refer the member to clause 14, which stipulates clearly that the requirement there is for transfer agreements to be published, and that obviously provides a context in terms of the transparency that\u2019s required that the member is alluding to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022994b9f9c589e486c951a9f47b4072399\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00226a31396b5d014e649407fc0569f2b635\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a31396b5d014e649407fc0569f2b635\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to take a closure motion. We are still on Subpart 1 of this particular part, but can I encourage members to move on. We\u2019ve had over an hour on Subpart 1. I think it\u2019s time to move to Subpart 2 and begin the questions there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c39242400e9f4ae29c5c632cc3d68622\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c39242400e9f4ae29c5c632cc3d68622\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you for that, Madam Chair. Before I seek another call, can I just clarify that there are still some Amendment Papers that have been tabled and have been up on the New Zealand Legislation website for the last couple of days that have not had an opportunity to be aired yet. Are you saying that I\u2019m not able to refer to those as part of Subpart 1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210aaf9c61a734d8a96553d2d6e20d311\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that point of order. The opportunity to speak to those is every time a member gets to their feet. Like I say, we have interrogated this Subpart 1 for quite some time. I think it\u2019s time to move on to the next part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022501c0a2bbb8045f7a22caee2364990ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022501c0a2bbb8045f7a22caee2364990ac\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I will, having taken your guidance on that, refer to the Amendment Papers that are in my name that seek to amend clause 17. This is something that has not been referred to by the Minister of Local Government, so this committee stage is unaware as to the Minister\u2019s position on what has been circulated in advance. The Minister has had at least a couple of days to consider his position on this. In light of that, I would welcome a response from him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ETo assist other members who might be interested, this is an attempt to provide some certainty in a number of really important areas in clause 17. There is a requirement for a water service provider to continue the provision of water services\u2014that\u2019s good. But what this Amendment Paper 339 seeks to do is to provide some further assurances to the public and the community in four areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe first relates to inserting five additional paragraphs after clause 17(2)(c). The first one is to ensure that there is no declination in freshwater quality or ecosystem within a service area. So that\u2019s the first one that would be introduced within this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe second one is, basically, ensuring that there is a requirement that the provider is able to identify how it is that an ongoing compliance with drinking-water standards would be given effect to. So that\u2019s the second one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe third one is, really, in that public health realm. My question to the Minister: given that a lot of the reform space has been from the genesis of what was experienced in Havelock North and in other parts of the rohe as well, why does he not believe that there needs to be a compliance factor around public health obligations that would be introduced around proposed paragraph (f) in Amendment Paper 339? I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s response around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThen, in proposed paragraph (g) in Amendment Paper 339, there is an opportunity for ensuring that there is a level of community support for any proposed transfer and change that would follow. This talks about introducing a referendum, which has not been mentioned in this committee stage at all, the possibility of a referendum; this is completely new\u2014but whether or not the Minister would be inclined to support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe final one, which follows from Dr Russell\u2019s sort of look at previous clauses, is around this accountability frame. What this amendment would do is it would introduce a requirement for a public annual meeting to be held within six months of the end of each financial year, and that that would have an open opportunity for accountability for questions to be posed. My question specifically on this Amendment Paper hasn\u2019t been canvassed, and I\u2019m interested on the Minister\u2019s thoughts around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u002206ee9dc846124914bd6621bbf73392b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206ee9dc846124914bd6621bbf73392b2\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and we hear your concerns about us cracking on with this part. I have a specific reference to clause 26(3) in Part 2, which reads \u201CIf any of the options identified under subsection (1) involve a significant decision in relation to land or a body of water, the authority must take into account the relationship of M\u0101ori and their culture and traditions with their ancestral land, water, sites, w\u0101hi tapu, valued flora and fauna, and other taonga.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EMy question is: why the wording \u201Ctake into account\u201D, which is sort of a lower bar\u2014i.e., it\u2019s not a strong articulation? We have a tabled amendment from my colleague Lan Pham, which proposes that it could be changed to \u201Cseek to protect and provide for\u201D that list. I wonder if the Minister of Local Government could reflect on that, noting that many submitters outlined that this clause and others should be amended to require councils to meaningfully consult with M\u0101ori. In terms of the obligation of the Crown to protect taonga and ensure that M\u0101ori have the ability to express their tino rangatiratanga over their taonga and resources, it would be appropriate to strengthen the wording in that clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EFurthermore, I wonder if the Minister could reflect on where councils are obliged to give effect to not only Treaty settlement obligations, for which there is now limited provision, but Te Tiriti o Waitangi itself more broadly when it comes to the rights and interests of unsettled iwi and hap\u016B. Of course, whether settled of not, M\u0101ori have the right of tino rangatiratanga, and Te Tiriti o Waitangi is an obligation of the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIn summary, I wonder if the Minister can reflect on whether he would consider strengthening that clause, which references appropriately and clearly the importance of the relationship of M\u0101ori and their culture with traditions, ancestral water sites, w\u0101hi tapu, valued flora and fauna, and other taonga. The wording of that is commendable aside from the weakness in the preamble. Would he consider changing \u201Cmust take into account\u201D for \u201Cmust protect and provide for\u201D? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e34b4bea2bf24e62a44961791779f169\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e34b4bea2bf24e62a44961791779f169\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I have reflected on the Opposition members\u2019 Amendment Papers, and have made a decision that I do not support them because I don\u2019t believe that they are going to be adding more than the amendments that have been made\u2014over 300 or so\u2014through the select committee process which the members were part of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the answer to clause 26(3) by the member, the wording in subclause (3), as I outlined last night in response to a similar question, is taken from the Local Government Act, and that has the precedent in terms of the way in which the interaction and responsibilities by councils and the Treaty are required, and those set precedents in the context of this bill that\u2019s on the Table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002258cc167de194425789a2df75e50035f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258cc167de194425789a2df75e50035f7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have one last question I wish to raise in respect of the clauses in Subpart 1 of Part 2, and it\u2019s just to do with the interaction of a couple of clauses: the financial principles, clause 16, but also then the clause around obligations before entering into contracts, clause 22. I want to draw the Minister\u2019s attention\u2014and, in fact, the committee\u2019s attention\u2014to clause 22(3) and the preamble of (3). This is on page 50 of the bill, not the Amendment Paper, and it says, \u201CBefore entering into a contract that a provider determines to be a significant contract because it will create a public-private partnership,\u201D. Now, I haven\u2019t had the time to work out where else public-private partnerships are contemplated in this bill, but I do want to link this back to clause 16.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the problem: public-private partnerships may well be an appropriate model to use\u2014it\u2019s an empirical case every single time\u2014but the thing with a public-private contract is that the private partner in that partnership expects a return. All right, that\u2019s fair enough; that\u2019s why people make investments, and it\u2019s in order to earn a return. We all do this all the time. It\u2019s a straightforward aspect of the way our society operates. We expect a return. Anyone who\u2019s entering into a public-private partnership is going to have to have an eye to revenue streams, to the extent to which those revenue streams generate sufficient additional income that they can then, in turn, pay a dividend. Clause 16, as the Minister has explained to us, has said that we have to pay dividends responsibly, but I guess I see a real concern here that when we allow private entities to enter into our water services provision, that really accelerates the profit motive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, we want these entities to earn sufficient to be able to pay for the infrastructure, to pay for the water flows, to pay for the waste water, the stormwater, the drinking water\u2014that\u2019s the point\u2014but to what extent, then, as soon as we have a public-private partnership in there, are we going to have a profit motive in there over and above the needs of maintaining the network? I wonder if the Minister could just give us a bit of his thinking around the use of public-private partnerships in the context of water supply and, again, to what extent that profit motive is going to somewhat pull against many of the financial principles in clause 16 of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022526797394ab44891bbcc4dbdeb0c9e1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022526797394ab44891bbcc4dbdeb0c9e1f\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. What this clause reflects is, in effect, belts and braces to the aspects that the member has referenced in regards to how these entities may interact with the water service entities. In regards to clause 22(4), it outlines there that a public-private partnership means a long-term contract for the delivery of water services, and it goes on to outline the specifics around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe reality is that to have a financially sustainable model, you are going to have long-term contracts in order to deliver that. The current status quo, before this legislation\u2014an example is Veolia, which operates in Papakura in Auckland and has a contract with Watercare to provide long-term services. That\u2019s been in place for a long time. It is an example. The belts and braces of this ensure that there are appropriate controls and mechanisms outlined in clause 22(3), primarily, and 22(4), to make sure that the considerations around those entities and the relationship have the appropriate controls around them to ensure that that meets the requirements of the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0ba9579cab44a0b960e341992dc09d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0ba9579cab44a0b960e341992dc09d1\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to point out as well how substantial this earlier part of the bill is, and particularly as someone who was on the Finance and Expenditure Committee, or sitting in on that, particularly for this bill, I want to make it really clear that this was an absolutely rushed process and time frame. There are big sections of this bill that have not actually had any scrutiny put on them. So I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to ask the Minister questions, put up our amendments, and actually have a response back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI want to thank my colleague Deborah Russell for picking up on the public-private partnerships, and I don\u2019t need to go into that, but I wanted to go into one specific aspect that the Minister has just raised as well, which I\u2019d really like some consideration about. That is about specifically the length of the water services contracts, and I have an amendment for these.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWe heard actually from a number of submitters during the process that they were all really concerned, particularly about this 50-year maximum limit for contracting out these water services. Now, we can all have different ideas about the role of public-private partnerships and their benefits or not, but our concern that we share with many of submitters that submitted on this bill is about privatisation. When you have, particularly, contracts which may be numerous in size, which may be at scale and for such a long period of time, we\u2019re really concerned about that acting as de facto privatisation. While we accept the need for public-private partnerships, particularly when it comes to major assets, we think the major provider should ideally always be the public entity and that we\u2019re investing in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EIf we are enabling commercial operators to actually hold these concessions, then that must be in line with all the purposes and the objectives like the best interests, like the good employer tests, which are earlier in the objectives. However, we would like to see, and we\u2019d like the Minister to consider, actually shortening the time frame within clause 21(2A), which is the subject of my proposed amendment\u2014to replace 50 years with 20 years. We think that that would be a more valid length of time in terms of, essentially, this once in a generation consideration of the arrangements within a natural contracting cycle. That seems very fit for purpose, particularly when we know that these are decisions that need to be looked at as a community and things really do change over decades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EAs part of this amendment as well, I\u2019m suggesting at clause 21(2A) that we actually insert new subclause 2B that says, \u201CFor the avoidance of doubt, day-to-day operations must be provided by the public entity.\u201D That\u2019s really to emphasise that we want investment in these public entities and them to hold as much of the contracts and be actually doing the work as possible. I\u2019d really appreciate the Minister\u2019s thoughts on those. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00227484bef5fcf440c99f00bb4a87bb2665\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227484bef5fcf440c99f00bb4a87bb2665\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, I think Subpart 2 has been well canvassed. There\u2019s further reference to the organisations in Subpart 3, so can I suggest we move on to Subpart 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022df155385ca50406098252d918077af79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df155385ca50406098252d918077af79\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Sorry\u2014thank you, Madam Chair\u2014can I just seek some clarity around that. Subpart 2 is primarily related to the role of regional councils in this, and I don\u2019t believe there have been contributions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b9c8be7266d403b82be7d2dbe49a80b\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a short subpart, but we haven\u2019t covered it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286d1b7e6ccc740f4b07af89eb64d524f\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: A very short subpart, but there haven\u2019t been any contributions related to regional councils as far as I can ascertain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00221430d46e127244e5ab252d4e977e6df4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221430d46e127244e5ab252d4e977e6df4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, to me, that\u2019s a signal that there were no questions about regional councils if it hasn\u2019t been raised, and so we\u2019ve moved on to the organisations in the Amendment Paper, so I\u2019m suggesting we move to Subpart 3 for that purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00229ce72ba49eb248c1a670300c19ea903c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ce72ba49eb248c1a670300c19ea903c\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Moving on to Subpart 3, which does relate to the water organisations\u2014I did have an earlier Amendment Paper previous, but I\u2019ll leave that. I think the Minister of Local Government hasn\u2019t addressed it but has given a response none the less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESubpart 3 in relation to clause 36 is, effectively, establishing the water organisations. One of the issues that I\u2019m interested in hearing from the Minister\u2014and it might be that he has a particular view around this\u2014is that clause 36 basically sets the organisations. My question to the Minister is: how will he ensure\u2014if he intends to ensure at all\u2014that those water organisations that will be established will not be used to privatise or, effectively, corporatise what are essential services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe water organisations themselves can\u2014are empowered to\u2014undertake any of the water services. Now, there is provision within the bill to separate that out if that\u2019s the decision that territorial authorities take. But it\u2019s not quite clear what is the Minister\u2019s perspective on ensuring that any establishment opportunity for an organisation in this space is not going to be protected or allow for the privatisation, effectively, of water in this country. It might be that the Minister can point us to a different part in the bill or it might be that he wishes to put on record what his particular view around that is, but it is interesting, none the less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other aspect is that this change in clause 36(3A) is around the preparation of the foundation documents. Now, this is something that hasn\u2019t been sort of transferred in from any other part of that clause\u2014it is a new, discrete addition\u2014and so my question to the Minister is: what sort of time frames would exist alongside that? There are other time frames in other corresponding parts of the bill that talk to when particular documents need to be lodged, when a strategy needs to be prepared. This is around the foundation documents, and it might be that that\u2019s actually all-encompassing in terms of the strategy document, and the fact that there is a trigger elsewhere in the bill negates the need for it to be specified here, but I\u2019m interested in in the Minister\u2019s response around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the ownership of the water organisation\u2014and this specifically is outlined in clause 37\u2014there are obviously a number of options depending on what particular track the councils take around this. I\u2019m interested to hear from the Minister around whether there are higher levels of public accountability concerns with the nature and ownership of water organisations that are outlined there. For example, it is specified as to what a company needs\u2014I think it\u2019s accepted that if a company is formed, it needs to comply with what the legislation is. There\u2019s no issue with that. But if there is, for example, an exemption that has been applied and one has been granted, where is the public accountability aspect that sits within this particular domain or this particular area when it relates to not just the nature within which the organisation is established but the way in which it might be owned, particularly if it\u2019s being, effectively, set up outside of the council opportunities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI guess the interesting thing there is that members\u2014certainly on this side of the Chamber\u2014would be keen to get an understanding from the Minister around what protections exist to ensure that the future ownership of these organisations remain in public ownership or, at the bare minimum, what sort of protections exist to ensure that the dilution of public ownership is not a particular pathway or a journey that that heads down. I\u2019ll leave with those questions for the Minister first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6735efee47e413b8bcb75a15a100f4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6735efee47e413b8bcb75a15a100f4e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019m looking at clause 40. It\u2019s around the governance of water organisations. Clause 40 itself concerns itself with the appointment of directors to a board, the boards of water organisations, so it\u2019s fairly straightforward. The first provision is that the director \u201Cmust be appointed on the basis of their competency to perform the role.\u201D, which is absolutely straightforward, and I\u2019d hope they were all competent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut what I do find interesting is the people who are not able to be appointed as a director of a water organisation. I\u2019m assuming it\u2019s not because they\u2019re deemed to be incompetent, because the first one refers to elected members of territorial authorities. I do just want to explore that a little bit, and also the provision that employees of territorial authorities and also employees that are shareholders of water organisations cannot be appointed. So, basically, elected officials and employees can\u2019t be appointed to be directors of the water services organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI just want to query that a little bit in respect of the chief executive officer of a water organisation. It\u2019s fairly common for CEOs to be on the board of an organisation. It\u2019s not an unheard of arrangement. I just want to clarify with the Minister\u2014I\u2019m assuming that, perhaps, the CEO might be an ex officio member of the board but not have voting rights, or something like that. But obviously the CEO themselves is going to be highly competent, we would hope, in this space, and will have a great deal of knowledge to bring to the roles. I would be hoping there would be some reasonable arrangement that the CEO of the water organisation could have, even if it were not for them to sit on the board as a director but to actually have board level input into the organisation and what it\u2019s doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the first question in respect of the board directors. The second one is around elected members of a territorial authority. Again, that does seem pretty sensible to me, but I just want to clarify\u2014I\u2019m assuming that that particular clause doesn\u2019t bar someone who has been an elected member of a territorial authority from being appointed to the board. Now, again, we\u2019ve got a fair amount of precedent here at central government level where former Ministers and MPs are appointed to boards, and for good reason. They bring a degree of experience of what it is to manage an organisation that is a somewhat political organisation and it has to have an ear to the political currents around the place, to be appointed to boards. Sometimes they\u2019re boards of public entities; sometimes they\u2019re boards of private entities. There is a real value they bring to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI just want to check with the member: local body politicians and people who\u2019ve worked in that space, at the provision of local body services, who understand the political currents\u2014that\u2019s actually a valuable voice to be heard on the board. So if the Minister could clarify: currently elected members are obviously not to go on the board, but I\u2019m assuming that former elected members might well be within scope to be appointed to the board, provided they have the required competencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0c8e54e2f804746b2fb4a69beb871af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0c8e54e2f804746b2fb4a69beb871af\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair. In regard to the questions from members around accountability, the public accountability of water organisations is, obviously, through the councils or consumer trusts that are shareholders of these organisations. Councils and trustees are, obviously, elected by the public, and there are various requirements through the legislation and other mechanisms in regard to shareholders\u2019 responsibilities, including through Part 4 of the bill, which I\u2019m eagerly looking forward to progressing to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EClause 36 relates to the question in regard to privatisation and other protections. The water organisations are water service providers, and there are a range of protections against privatisation\u2014for example, clauses 17 and 18 outline requirements that only councils and trustees of consumer trusts can own a water organisation, and this includes clause 37. Now, I know all the Opposition members have read the bill but, you know, that\u2019s where you see it in black and white.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe question around can a CEO of an organisation sit on the board\u2014I mean, I\u2019m not going to do an Institute of Directors 101 course on corporate governance, but I would go as far to say it\u2019s probably not good practice to have a chief executive be a member of your governance board, because, last time I looked, governance boards set the strategy and actually employ the CEO, so a bit of conflict there. I think what the member\u2019s referring to there is prior members and other people\u2014well, again, it comes down to the competency of individuals. The CEO would be part of and attend board meetings, no doubt, in their executive capacity, alongside other people such as a chief financial officer. Hopefully that clarifies that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b87e75a48a374246a8a17cb2adbbada1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b87e75a48a374246a8a17cb2adbbada1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I am torn about the detail we\u2019re getting down into, but I will take another call from Tangi Utikere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00228c3d5c42fcf44c74b876bfac5e17d7bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c3d5c42fcf44c74b876bfac5e17d7bb\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. A lot of this particular subpart, Subpart 3, that you\u2019ve indicated you\u2019d like us to focus on is related to the mechanics of the consumer trust arrangements. I want to refer now to clause 45, which hasn\u2019t been referred to yet. This is the content of a trust deed for a consumer trust. I guess, when we think about what\u2019s in a trust deed, this can be fairly mundane from time to time, but it is still really important, the contents of the trust deed. I\u2019m assuming from this\u2014I mean, there\u2019s lots of legislation around that basically outlines what needs to be contained within a deed or other documents, and the Minister of Local Government hasn\u2019t quite responded to the foundation documents question yet, either. But I\u2019m assuming that this is not a simple sort of lift and shift from another piece of legislation\u2014that this is a list of criteria or inclusions or considerations that is, basically, bespoke, because there has been some changes around the way in which conflicts of interest will be declared and pecuniary interests and the like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy question for the Minister is: in preparing the list of items that must be in a trust deed\u2014because the bill says that the trust \u201Cmust\u201D ensure that the deed provides for the following matters\u2014why has the Government not mandated for a stronger level of public engagement requirements in the trust deed? That\u2019s the first question for the Minister. What\u2019s lacking in that list is the ability for the consumer trust to turn their minds in an active way to how they would engage with the public about their activities. I think that\u2019s a very keen sort of inclusion, because we are talking about the provision of water services that have a direct impact on communities. Where is the sort of mandate around a stronger level of public engagement within the trust deed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EFlowing on from that, of course, is the requirement for any trust deed to reflect the diverse nature of communities. I invite the Minister to point out where in that particular clause is the requirement for the deed to have consideration of communities, because if we think about the fact that all of the different councils around New Zealand will be representative of different communities\u2014in some populations, it will be a largely rural community; in others, it will be fairly urban; in others, it will be a provincial sort of mix of both worlds. Where in the trust deed is there a place for that? Maybe the Minister doesn\u2019t believe that that should sit there. If not, then where in the scheme of things should there be a requirement to address those considerations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other one that I want to touch on is related to clause 51, and this relates to the financial statements and the audits. Now, there has been some change to this clause within the bill. It originally did have a specific reference to practice related to the Financial Reporting Act 2013. That\u2019s been removed. The point that I want to identify and the question I want to put to the Minister is\u2014in a circumstance where a trustee of the trust wilfully, basically, doesn\u2019t comply with subclause (1), which is around the auditing nature of things, there is a specified consequence, and it is a convictable consequence, which is a fine of not exceeding $200,000. Now, in select committee, we come up against this all the time, right, where there is an offence that\u2019s been generated, and then the penalty provisions are either drawn from another statute or there is some comparative with another statute to ensure that it\u2019s like-for-like and similar. My question for the Minister is: that penalty provision\u2014where has that come from? Is it consistent with other similar offending? It might be that it comes from a similar Act, but I\u2019d be interested in a response to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022c19a000c4134418b9226c2a85beb074f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c19a000c4134418b9226c2a85beb074f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I also just want to say that we really appreciate the Chair\u2019s guidance around when to move to the next subpart, and just want to signal here, Madam Chair, that I have one very small question for Subpart 3, and after this I will be moving on to Subpart 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3e1d7e448a84226915f25ac93707a74\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022957e26acaa7d443eb2b5b9db741cc606\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of Subpart 3, the one question I have is to do with clause\u00A038, \u201CLimited role of water organisation\u201D. I want to check with the Minister that in this case, water organisations \u201Cmust not do anything\u201D. Those are absolute terms. One of the things that I\u2019m curious about is why there wasn\u2019t a provision at least in place that allows clause 38 to be subjected to clauses 55 to 58 around exemptions, because in clauses 55 to 58 it does allow for exemptions, and there is a suite of process and also criteria that a water organisation, for example, must meet before being eligible for such exemption. So I just want to check with the Minister\u2014was there any consideration to include something like that in clause 38 so that in that way, clause 38 isn\u2019t in absolute terms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0144411974e4f06a21e21418cb6e0bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0144411974e4f06a21e21418cb6e0bc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Lan Pham\u2014I just would note, having watched the previous Chairperson and appreciating Mr Xu-Nan\u2019s comments, I do feel like it\u2019s time now to move on to Subpart 4. Thank you. Is there a quick question about Subpart 3?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d41fea99da14846a1672d02e010d668\u0022\u003ELan Pham\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve just got a quick question about consideration of my amendment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204b55e886cbf4accae56ac766b1f9107\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, we\u2019ll make this the last question on Subpart 3 and then we\u2019ll move on to Subpart 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u00222081a008bc4b493ea56a85e83a339fcc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222081a008bc4b493ea56a85e83a339fcc\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My suggested amendment\u2014which I\u2019ll get straight to\u2014is to delete clause 55. It was really great to hear the Minister of Local Government assure us that there is, essentially, an avoidance of doubt clause which actually prohibits against risk of privatisation. I\u2019m suggesting we take that one step further in deleting clause 55(5), and this relates to the exemptions. We had some really clear submissions, particularly from the grouping of Wellington councils and their mana whenua partners. Tauranga City Council also recommended the deletion of this clause, because they saw it as the potential for a water organisation to be a cooperative company and that this could be a possible avenue for privatisation. We also had Ng\u0101 Waihua o Paerangi and Ng\u0101ti Haua Iwi Trust noting their concerns with this, and also the Institute of Directors, who considered that councils should not be able to seek an exemption to the requirement that trustees have no other roles and responsibilities in relation to the water organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EMy suggested amendment to further ensure that these water entities are protected from possible avenues of privatisation is to delete clause 55, and I\u2019d like to hear that being considered. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2b728b9e2b845778c578cf83a40ea27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2b728b9e2b845778c578cf83a40ea27\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question. Exemptions from clause 38 are provided for in clause 55(3). That\u2019s the reason why clause 55 is in place\u2014there was a prior question in regards to clause 38. In regards to the question on clause 45 around consumer trusts and how they deal with consumer engagement, clause 45 requires that a trustee sets out how trustees will engage with consumers, and the ultimate accountability that is in place for consumer trust is consumer trust elections, and that ensures that the accountability mechanism is in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229a04841866e94c98b67acccaf6df0a60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a04841866e94c98b67acccaf6df0a60\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just going to now indicate that we\u2019re moving on to Subpart 4, so that\u2019s clause 58A through to 58H.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002274021fb8e5ad4ac3aa0952b2871c182b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274021fb8e5ad4ac3aa0952b2871c182b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is actually a really interesting part of this bill, because what it does is it provides a capacity\u2014in fact, a requirement\u2014for territorial authorities to actually assess the work that the water provider is doing in terms of testing the quality of the water that\u2019s supplied and making sure that all the systems are working as specified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t have a great deal to add in terms of the assessment of drinking water\u2014no particular questions around that, because some of that is so self-evident, but also that\u2019s obviously very much a response to the disasters of the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat I want to focus on\u2014I\u2019ll leave that drinking water to some other people who do know more about this. I just want to look at clause 58D and, in particular, the assessment of communities\u2019 stormwater and waste-water services. I\u2019m sure we\u2019re all aware of the huge amounts of rain that have been falling across this country in the last few days. It\u2019s been falling again up in my rohe in Auckland, around West Auckland. We\u2019ll all remember\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247b3770795ff436fbab209aa5b250ca8\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Our rohe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205eec5721f1643ff9b369f2ac8fb6dd1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Our\u2014yep, our rohe. Yes, very much so, ours. The disaster of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cadaf9df19c64836a5b7591880ef19f3\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not claiming mana whenua status, by the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d78002603b4c45cb82c287da04bcc4f9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: No, not at all. We all remember the disaster of the Auckland Anniversary floods\u2014all right. Now, around the stormwater, in clause 58D(1) it says, \u201CA territorial authority must assess the provision within its district of (a) stormwater services;\u201D and then in clause\u00A058D(2), \u201CThe purpose of an assessment is to assess, from a public health perspective, the [provision] of stormwater services\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, obviously, we want to assess the provision of stormwater services, I would hope, from, obviously, the threat to life\u2014I suppose we can call that a public health perspective, but it\u2019s kind of a little bit of an odd way to put it. I would have thought the threat to life is worthy of thinking about in itself. In terms of a public health perspective\u2014again, we think of assessing stormwater services in relation to the possible damage to property, a really known problem, but I just want to hear what the perspective is around that public health perspective. Does that sort of comprehend a broad understanding of public health? Are we talking about the impact on people\u2019s mental health if the stormwater provisions aren\u2019t adequate? We know up in our area that children out at P\u012Bh\u0101 and in Karekare have nightmares when it rains. Is that the sort of thing that is intended within that public health perspective? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI just wonder if the Minister of Local Government could talk a little bit about what is intended from that public health perspective, aside from the obvious dangers to life and limb. Are we talking about things like potential disease but also some of the mental health aspects that go along with, well, inadequate stormwater protection? A little around that would be very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4da1eed075b4ca38adb905e97caa3e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4da1eed075b4ca38adb905e97caa3e0\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a very important part, Subpart 4\u2014I\u2019m on clause 58A and specifically 58B, actually. Clause 58A speaks to the definitions in relation to water services. We have \u201Csignificant problem or potential problem\u201D: \u201C(a) a drinking water supplier has persistently failed to comply with the requirements of the Services Act 202; or (b) there is a risk to public health from the supply provided by a drinking water supplier;\u201D. If we cross the page to clause\u00A058B, \u201CAssessment of communities\u2019 access to drinking water\u201D, this is all around the obligation of a territorial authority to inform itself about the access that each community in its district has to drinking water services by undertaking an assessment of drinking water. If we go further down, that includes subclause (2)(d)(ii)\u2014that\u2019s line 19, I guess: \u201Cany reasonably foreseeable risks to the community\u2019s access to drinking water services in the future;\u201D. Then, further down, at paragraph (f): \u201Cidentify and assess any public health risks related to the drinking water services supplied to the community\u201D\u2014there will be a logic to why I\u2019m pointing out all these points in a moment. Then to paragraph (g)(i): \u201Cassess the consequences if the community loses access to drinking water services in the future, or is provided with drinking water services that are deficient in any way, including the implications for the community\u2019s public health\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe risk to the community\u2019s public health is a highly pertinent question. The obligations a water authority is required to meet are set by things such as the maximum acceptable value of certain contaminants. The most pertinent topical one of the day is nitrate right now, because, literally, Gore has just been told\u2014a city of 8,000 people\u2014that it needs to not drink its water about 10 days ago because it exceeded the maximum acceptable value. That is a risk for blue baby syndrome. There\u2019s also other emerging risks for chronic exposure to bowel cancer, and pre-term birth is a risk at 5\u00A0milligrams\u2014significantly lower than the maximum acceptable value. But I specifically asked, in the last week, the Gore council what their obligation was to inform their residents of the health risks of nitrate at 7 milligrams per litre, which is what it\u2019s currently sitting at on average. Which is to say it falls below the maximum acceptable value, but it is above emerging evidence of health risks, namely a Californian study from 2021 that shows that at 5 milligrams, there is a 47 percent increase in the risk of pre-term birth for pregnant people who are consuming nitrate at that level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EMy question is: does the water provider have any obligation in its responsibility to provide drinking water services\u2014that impact a community\u2019s public health? Does it have any obligation to give advice to that community on the health implications of contaminants such as nitrate, or does it simply have to meet the maximum acceptable value? Would it, for instance, Minister, be acceptable, under these clauses and definitions, for that council to advise the public that the water was perfectly safe to drink, even though there is scientific evidence and peer-reviewed literature that\u2019s showing that it is not perfectly safe to drink, in the instance of Gore at 7 milligrams?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EMy other point I would like to ask, which is totally related to that, is that where, as in the case of Gore, it\u2019s very obvious the source of the nitrate\u2014the nitrate contamination is an ongoing problem in that city. I know, from having been there and tested the water myself in a previous role, that the nitrate has been steadily rising over the course of\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b79c9b0e2b0c4e6eab78947dcf78569c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b79c9b0e2b0c4e6eab78947dcf78569c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E The member\u2019s points are out of the scope of this bill because they relate to the fact that water service providers\u2019 obligations are to comply with the water quality regulations. So all of that lovely stuff and conversation is very nice but it\u2019s not relevant to this provision because the regulations in terms of water quality are outlined under the requirements for the water services regulator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8b0858905e842e5af0ceae7729f7a94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8b0858905e842e5af0ceae7729f7a94\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to turn to proposed clause 58F. Some colleagues have touched on the proceeding clauses around what information is to be made available for the assessment of services and the like. This clause is very specific, and it relates to the possible transfer or the closure of small water services. That\u2019s the first question for the Minister of Local Government\u2014the definition of a \u201Csmall water service\u201D\u2014because when one looks at the interpretation clause, there is no definition that I can see for a \u201Csmall water service\u201D. What Subpart 4, helpfully, does, actually, is it identifies, for the purposes of this subpart, definitions in there, and likewise there is no definition for a \u201Csmall water service\u201D. So I\u2019d like to understand what that actually looks like in terms of how many numbers we are talking about there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhen we look at 58F(1)(b), this is the trigger, really\u2014that there is a service that has been operated by a provider but that it is no longer appropriate to maintain. The question for the Minister is: what leads to that inappropriateness? The proceeding clauses are talking about circumstances where a problem has perhaps been identified\u2014I don\u2019t think that\u2019s what is meant by it\u2019s \u201Cno longer appropriate to maintain.\u201D, let alone operate. Are we talking about the fact that it has already been decommissioned or the infrastructure is in a state in which it is not able to be operated or is non-functional? I\u2019m just interested in what that actually means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe rest of that particular clause talks about, basically, leading up to what is a vote or a binding referendum for ratepayers in that particular community. Now, there is a requirement helpfully outlined that talks about the provider\u2014you know, there\u2019s certain things. The number of folk\u2014and it might be that the fewer than 200 is the trigger for a small provider; I don\u2019t know. I can\u2019t see it defined there. But there is a requirement for the provider to consult with the Medical Officer of Health. Now, in the proceeding clauses, the nature of what individuals need to be consulted on for assessment purposes is outlined. Here there is no description or definition around what it is that the Medical Officer of Health is seeking to be consulted on. Now, we know and councils know that when it comes to district licensing committees, they\u2019re provided with an opportunity as a statutory officer to provide a view on that. What is it that the Medical Officer of Health is to be providing, in that particular sense? It\u2019s appropriate that there is a role there, but it would be interesting to understand what that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOnce that information has been provided, when we go to subclause 3(d)(ii), it talks about\u2014I assume for the purposes of the referendum\u2014making all of this information publicly available. Now, that\u2019s all good and well. However, it talks about it being made publicly available in a balanced and timely manner. Now, timely manner, we can probably understand that, but what is this \u201Cbalanced\u201D perspective? When it comes to Medical Officer of Health considerations and information, balance from one community to another could be very, very different, so I\u2019m interested in what guides that balanced approach. Timely, we can understand\u2014that is, effectively, a time frame. Is it just the provision of all the information; if so, why is that not stipulated here in the clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other thing\u2014just finally on this, Minister\u2014is the trigger points for change. In clause\u00A058F(3)(f)(i) and (ii), it talks about the 75 percent threshold for, effectively, shutting down the provision of the service, whereas the transfer is 50 percent. Why the different thresholds between the two\u201475 percent for closing the provision or getting rid of the service, and 50 percent for retaining but transferring it across to another provider?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdd8a71c768c42bd8b9445eae30f79eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdd8a71c768c42bd8b9445eae30f79eb\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Clause 58F(3)(a) refers to a number of 200 persons to provide an indication of 200 or fewer, which is the point that the member\u2019s potentially getting to, into the context around what is seen as small. There is no subsequent definition of what is small, but the context around 200 provides some guidance. Paragraph (f) provides the belts and braces around the referendum that needs to apply if this decision is proceeded. As you can see, it\u2019s a pretty comprehensive mechanism in order to provide protections around this. I\u2019ve already answered this question in prior responses in regards to points (b), (c), and (d). Again, I\u2019m now repeating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2118742bbb5446987585ecb57b4ba94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2118742bbb5446987585ecb57b4ba94\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Dr Deborah Russell. I want the questions to home in now rather than being speeches, because we\u2019ve spent a bit of time now on subclause (4).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022f69fea48b05a40e993544f38841353dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f69fea48b05a40e993544f38841353dc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve got a couple of questions to ask here. The first is around this 200 or fewer persons. Now, I\u2019m contemplating a scenario where there are 200 people in an area and then someone has a baby and suddenly makes it to 201. It is curious, because we\u2019re talking about the number of persons, not the number of connections. What I want to understand here is\u2014I guess there must have been a little bit of advice around this, as to what were taken to be small organisations and the number of people, not connections, who are normally part of a small water services organisation. There must be a flex point where you go, \u201CYeah, there\u2019s too many people here.\u201D Why 200? Why not 150? Why not 300? Did officials do some survey work to have a look at what might be called small water services and do some work and find out that, actually, 200 was a kind of reasonably good demarcation between small and not so small, or was it just a number dragged out of the air? I\u2019d just like to see a little bit of the background around that. I\u2019m hoping that there aren\u2019t too many water services on the margin, because we wouldn\u2019t want that. We\u2019d want them to be clearly small or clearly big. So that\u2019s the first question there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe other question is around the referendum. It talks about eligible voters, and that\u2019s got me a little bit more worried. Voting eligibility in this country goes on permanent residence and citizenship and age. The citizenship and age is fairly straightforward, but, you know, people who aren\u2019t permanent residents but are nevertheless perhaps paying rent are affected by a water service closure but wouldn\u2019t necessarily then have a say in whether or not the water services were going to continue to the property that they were in\u2014even the people who can own might be able to do that. So there\u2019s a little bit of a worry there, because this is talking about the provision of a service that everyone needs, but some people, because we\u2019re going on eligible voters, might be excluded from a say in whether or not the water service to their home continues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a little bit of a further point here as well. We\u2019ve done it in terms of persons, but we can contemplate that some large households might only have one vote for the household, or two votes for the household\u2014you can imagine a family with a number of children, whereas some households might have, say, an older couple, maybe in farming\u2014well, maybe not farming but in a small community where they may have a tenant. They might end up with more votes per property. So I just want the Minister to give me a little bit of the thinking around that\u2014around how we could determine the eligibility for voting based on need rather than in the electoral voting, as it\u2019s a slightly different matter. I get it in terms of who gets to vote for elected officials and things like that, but this is a referendum around whether or not a service is provided, and it\u2019s a slightly different matter. Again, there must be some thinking in behind this. I\u2019d be interested to hear it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00222599125ba7b64ed495318110d63d1dd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222599125ba7b64ed495318110d63d1dd4\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, so the member has asked for clarification of where the 200 number comes from. Clause 58F is actually taken from the Local Government Act. The number of 200 is actually used in other aspects of legislation, including health legislation, in the context of quantification around that size. That\u2019s the precedent. A reminder: while this is a long and complex bill, it has been through a full select committee process, and these types of detailed questions have been covered extensively through those conversations. I am repeating a lot of that just because it\u2019s big. There has been a full process on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221eea172608934ba3aa8ec0ba10152274\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221eea172608934ba3aa8ec0ba10152274\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to allow the opportunity to ask some questions on Subpart 5. Steve Abel\u2014have you got a question on Subpart 5?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00223dad0c16521e442bb9e7eb70c05e425b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dad0c16521e442bb9e7eb70c05e425b\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E May I have one very quick one on Subpart 4?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241ff8186b53746dc909ec082da2306d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019ll have to be only, like, that big\u2014only because I saw you have a go before, OK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022741199ce3bb24956a6c0720518f82f11\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s on the same question. Because the authority is required to provide safe drinking water, right, in accordance with the water services authority Taumata Arowai, does a regional authority, in its duty of providing safe drinking water as part of its obligation, and consistent with clause 16 in terms of its financial duty, have any recourse to seek compensation from an industry or a party that is diminishing its ability to provide safe drinking water\u2014i.e., through contaminating the drinking water? If the provider knows the source of a contaminant and its duty is to provide for the public, does it have an ability to seek compensation from the entity that is causing the contamination?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a very specific instance of this. I know, in Gore, they\u2019ve, literally, just spent money to drill a bore so they can pump water from the Mataura River into the water supply to dilute it so that the nitrate is below the maximum allowable value. They\u2019re spending public money to fix a contamination problem. Can they seek compensation from the entity that is causing the contamination?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002229a5386a563a4dfbb6c8ffee509530c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229a5386a563a4dfbb6c8ffee509530c6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m moving, now, on to Subpart 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002273e51483746d41eb836697fa4af50f62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273e51483746d41eb836697fa4af50f62\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Exactly where I\u2019m going, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022185adaf00c4146788eccad190e5dd8c3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022391aaa80a1da44b9a1654095cd47ce13\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, first of all, I want to thank you for alerting us to Subpart 5. We\u2019ve been working from the bill as it came from the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and, of course, Subpart 5 is in the Minister of Local Government\u2019s Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208e0e043b19a4eaaaf5687c2cc911733\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure previous speakers have been alerted to the subparts, because I\u2019ve heard that comment already, yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2a75592f9484606831d3834e1d41cb1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, news to me, Madam Chair, but I\u2019m very grateful to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ELook, a very simple question for the Minister, because we\u2019ve only just sort of gone \u201COh my goodness!\u201D\u2014was this transferred from another part of the bill? I know we discussed these water services delivery plans in select committee. It must have been sitting somewhere else in the bill. If the Minister could just guide us to where this was originally in the bill\u2014if it\u2019s been transferred in. If it\u2019s completely new, obviously we need to examine it, but I don\u2019t think it is. Can someone advise us as to where this came from in the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00223fc809e21abb41bda8af59b106e70c8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fc809e21abb41bda8af59b106e70c8d\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014and, sorry, I thought the body language of the Minister sort of indicated that he was poised to respond to that, which is why\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022057a3fdd8ffa480b86ec70ad999aba72\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That was my hesitation, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e6a97876fd94e74a1a7d7b3b5b70b2d\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014across the Chamber. In the absence of confirmation from the Minister that this is a simple transfer from elsewhere in the bill, I want to turn to what is proposed to be clause\u00A058L, \u201CWater services delivery plans: adoption and consultation\u201D, and this is set out on Amendment Paper 346 in the name of the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re working through a process throughout this country at the moment where the water delivery plan is basically with the Government before 3 September, and that might be why in clause 58J(2) we are seeing this, because it has the date \u201C3 September\u201D but it will be in 2030. I\u2019m interested to hear from the Minister about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut I want to just look at clause 58L, which is the adoption and consultation of the water services delivery plan. Now, it talks about the fact that the local territorial authority, basically, needs to adopt this plan by a resolution. The interesting thing, of course, is that we\u2019ve just talked about and asked questions about a binding referendum outcome that has a 50 percent trigger and a 75 percent trigger for certain things. To ensure that there is community-level support by way of elected members around local council decision-making tables, was there any thought around ensuring that there was a particular threshold that would need to be surpassed when the council, basically, passed that resolution?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not unheard of to have a particular higher threshold for certain decisions to be taken. Those that do have local government experience will know that often they are for things like setting aside the standing orders of a committee or thereabouts. So my question to the Minister is: given that this is about the way in which water services in a community are to be delivered, and there will be lots of discussion and perhaps concern around that as communities think about what the financial implication around that is\u2014and we hear that a lot at the moment as rates are going up as a result of the Government\u2019s unfunded mandates and expectations on to councils\u2014was there any thought about having a different threshold around the adoption of a water services delivery plan, even if it was at 75 percent? This is to ensure that there is community buy-in around this. That is the first question for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdfa9bba3fd148578edece27b08f1d9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdfa9bba3fd148578edece27b08f1d9a\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, in regards to the clause reference\u2014so, as the member will see on page 81, in the little small font under Subpart 4, there\u2019s a little number there which refers to the Local Government Act reference. I know the member\u2019s read the bill, but just helping him again to identify clause 131 as referring to the aspect in regards to the 200 number that I answered before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022d98fdd1fb01c47098c959b4818b3e844\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d98fdd1fb01c47098c959b4818b3e844\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225cd4fc8ba483409a913f944cca4bea45\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022631a58298d174a30a4146442f3dc1665\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022631a58298d174a30a4146442f3dc1665\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 346, to replace clause 7(5), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226d06d1b2d6aa471ca78fc7a2d5d3c592\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022586f2d3892f94dda9b0ad824b194d70d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022586f2d3892f94dda9b0ad824b194d70d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2, set out on Amendment Paper 346, as amended, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222ccf3d6ea913463d9fc5010c54ff65e1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments, as amended, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments, as amended, agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f777fdd5e64e43419a2854a0087c2cf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f777fdd5e64e43419a2854a0087c2cf7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause\u00A09(1), set out on Amendment Paper 337, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226e443ca7eada4bcea102861245016e6a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002218d4c09b8f4b46da84b5c40187ffc249\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218d4c09b8f4b46da84b5c40187ffc249\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause\u00A015(1), set out on Amendment Paper 338, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002262fdde6ab7524ed8856776f561173dac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229f1653dfddd84c7d9d5fcde0d3e97e67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f1653dfddd84c7d9d5fcde0d3e97e67\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 15(1)(a), to insert new subparagraphs (i) and (ii), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223cde4d37d13b4580a77c3c4b9ac12bed\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002207f9d72fb3d44066b3b97bc2287bf01f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207f9d72fb3d44066b3b97bc2287bf01f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 15(1)(a), to insert new subparagraph (ii) regarding Te Mana o te Wai, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022217a852096174eee902547becafc2d30\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022394656f0928a4377a80bf245f81c3b86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022394656f0928a4377a80bf245f81c3b86\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 15(1)(a), to insert new subparagraph (ii) requiring water services to be safe and accessible, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226868f0c6908f413191e7ea6498371b7d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222bd8fae7c8194c83beba8cb3e47e8e67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bd8fae7c8194c83beba8cb3e47e8e67\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 15(1)(b)(i) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c6e1819da8ef45eb9b20c09169aa4387\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221e1faecc53d94168a2ed2bf36961b3e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e1faecc53d94168a2ed2bf36961b3e0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 15(1)(b)(ii) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002204b6352416634f13a130ee50c4f6012e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002212eda5ae5bf24bab92d3fb0e517b52cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212eda5ae5bf24bab92d3fb0e517b52cc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 15(1)(c)(ii) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002257353c6b5cfd423fb7ff7c5d1791c3df\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223af7a4eed3fd4014b9aa95e0aecf291a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223af7a4eed3fd4014b9aa95e0aecf291a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendments to clause 16 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dc74fe31ebc44d0091bf19a1e66871b1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022aab34efae6df4836899b96f31a1b3635\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aab34efae6df4836899b96f31a1b3635\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause\u00A017(2), set out on Amendment Paper 339, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c9da987bd5ed4c1186a25f5547aaffe4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223f7a0203bd48408f8303d7150d620e22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f7a0203bd48408f8303d7150d620e22\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause\u00A018(1), set out on Amendment Paper 340, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cc99fe6ee25345f3a5c9706fa36b2b11\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002224cc6ed36b664314b4fb8cd3d7687bf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224cc6ed36b664314b4fb8cd3d7687bf6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment to clause\u00A018(1), set out on Amendment Paper 341, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224c7b2048ddad4abb89912ee9ceaa0184\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002282feaa92a7924673a99bf5570df8afe2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282feaa92a7924673a99bf5570df8afe2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendments to clause 21 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002287657c017d524987a491163e9388e199\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221e419885b7dc46e0bf983a625f764073\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e419885b7dc46e0bf983a625f764073\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 24(1A) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002261434a7fe6fc402287d330ddc090319c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224b07d17b0a7e47e581438390437a0860\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b07d17b0a7e47e581438390437a0860\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 24(2), to insert paragraph (c), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002261fb5b6856c741ffac98ddfba8b183e3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002280b68a14fc1b41d9ab50bf5ec00fc19b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280b68a14fc1b41d9ab50bf5ec00fc19b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 26 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227545fc5cd32c45bdb36b3c14eb81d1d2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022369f4baad7aa4192b774e1b9ddce4fb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022369f4baad7aa4192b774e1b9ddce4fb1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 36(1) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f2e637c2c9c24e6eb728f56600b0f890\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac94fe738a474ac4904692e96559c983\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac94fe738a474ac4904692e96559c983\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 36(3) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022789a57b26e2842918e21ab3760e1e7db\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226b68fca097034d928eca2ed6d14b14c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b68fca097034d928eca2ed6d14b14c8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 36(3A) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bf7cb0c924c2468e850d76fa1e9528e9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228f560b87c4c94881b1a5a83f5e358134\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f560b87c4c94881b1a5a83f5e358134\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 37, to insert new subclause (2A), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b27f9514f3024fe185115578df80ea78\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002286a34f5aef5b4f2b84aa8033ef7aeb59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286a34f5aef5b4f2b84aa8033ef7aeb59\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 40, to replace subclause (3), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c61db0980cc64e91a493de7fc86fe5ab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223e916dbad4c24851af396909886e00d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e916dbad4c24851af396909886e00d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause 55(5) is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002242380b76309e455bb42024eea9e7b460\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2, as amended, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2, as amended, agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228170584ef003417ab4f7c7cb22eeff8c\u0022\u003EPart 3  Provision of water services: operational matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223ffce156e174476d92a17cac989b6715\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ffce156e174476d92a17cac989b6715\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on Part 3, which is the debate on clauses 59 to 178A: the \u201CProvision of water services: operational matters\u201D. The question is that Part 3 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022c338e9ff34384975ac916afe2d2cdeb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c338e9ff34384975ac916afe2d2cdeb9\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. We\u2019re now over four hours into a six-part bill and we\u2019re at Part 3. I am looking forward to some good questions but concise, taking account that this bill has been through a full select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d84d1c891fc749e18cf25a8b50d03dfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d84d1c891fc749e18cf25a8b50d03dfe\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the Minister for that contribution. It\u2019s interesting, because we\u2019ve heard now a number of times that the Minister said this has gone through a full select committee process\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b54f6e171894431b6ef56babaa3adac\u0022\u003EHon Simon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Because it has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222654f836b4a3484896f945b8860a3dc6\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: And it has\u2014the Minister\u2019s right; it has. Actually, we had to go through and extend it a little bit further because of the complexities in the regulatory approaches of this bill. That was the opportunity for the community and others to have their say. Just because something\u2019s gone through a full select committee process doesn\u2019t mean that we need to short-tail this particular opportunity for all members of the House who may not have been part of that select committee process to have their say. It\u2019s also an opportunity for us to scrutinise, for example, the amendments that the Minister seeks to address. So I do hope that the Minister will continue to engage in relation to the questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat we are finding, of course, though, is that some of the questions have gone unanswered, including the one about why we suddenly had this new Subpart 5 appear in the Minister\u2019s own Amendment Paper. Now, I know he\u2019s the Minister of Revenue\u2014we know he can count. The simple answer to that is now clear in this particular part\u2014that it was in this part and now it\u2019s in the other. So, you know, let\u2019s not trifle, Minister, with the suggestion that it\u2019s been through a full select committee process. It\u2019s also\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abe5ec0bfa944584814b7e705ceba96f\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: Question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d877cfab2aeb48a4be6f20ecffac667d\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014an opportunity for you to\u2014well, yes, I\u2019ve got a question for the Minister. My question is: why didn\u2019t he simply say that Subpart 5 has been replaced from this section and you can find it in the other? He had plenty of opportunity to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, Part 3 relates to the operational matters for the provision of water services. The approach from Labour members will be to stick specifically to the subparts. Madam Chair, you\u2019ve been very helpful in assisting the committee in terms of identifying that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d5bfe86e80642d9a1d1806880236760\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Moving right along.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ba8fcf9c4a64aa9b6028c54dff8438c\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much\u2014very helpful, as always. I want to identify clause\u00A059A, and this is the \u201CPurpose of subpart\u201D, before we get into the sort of subpart proper. My question to the Minister around this is that this, here, talks about the ability to charge for providing water services and that they can\u2019t provide charges\u2014they can\u2019t charge unless it\u2019s provided for in this particular section. My question to the Minister is how, again, he reconciles the purpose of fairness, in terms of the overarching purpose of this bill, with the risk\u2014that will be a real risk\u2014of affordability or, more specifically, unaffordability for not just low-income households but for households all around the country. So my question for the Minister is the provision of charges, which this will enable and allow, provided that criteria is met\u2014how he reconciles that with what will be an inability for households around the country to be able to meet those particular charges and that particular need, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to have a look at clause 60, and this is about the fact that the organisation may set charges and they can do so for all three waters, and it also includes the trade-waste services opportunity that\u2019s there. There aren\u2019t really any limitations or expectations that have been imposed by the provision of this particular clause. The question I have for the Minister is: where in the bill, Minister, is the potential around safeguards to ensure that there is not an inequitable level of charging that would flow from the organisation? On the one hand, this empowers or permits the organisations to levy a charge against households. The question I have is: where is the provision in there that basically acts as a safeguard to ensure that there is some control, to ensure that there isn\u2019t an excessive level of charges being charged?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister does have some powers in terms of the legislation that he\u2019s already referred to previously. I\u2019m not talking about that in relation to these. I\u2019m talking about where in the bill is there this provision? This is the part that authorises the levy, but where is the ability for the Minister to intervene, or is that not a concern that he believes is justified\u2014that there will be inequities across households, whether they\u2019re low-, medium-income households, that will not have an ability to meet the affordability frame of this particular clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002227270c6c12b146198eba7cc832410541\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227270c6c12b146198eba7cc832410541\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m also interested in clause 59A, the \u201CPurpose of subpart\u201D, so: \u201CThe purpose of this subpart is to provide water organisations with the ability to charge for providing water services\u201D. We\u2019ve heard, just in that last contribution, about this question around equity. What I\u2019m still interested in and looking for from the Minister is a clear explanation about the difference and the use of the phrases throughout the legislation, including in this Part 3, of \u201Cwater organisations\u201D, which is a defined term, as opposed to a \u201Cwater services provider\u201D, also a defined term\u2014defined in an earlier part of the bill. It\u2019s relevant here, because why is it that this subpart is just about water organisations and not water service providers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ELinked to that is just the role of where the territorial authority and other councils sit within these definitions, because over the page at clause 65, on page 91, a water organisation and territorial authority must not both charge for a water service. I understand that heading\u2014that makes sense\u2014but wouldn\u2019t a territorial authority be a water services provider if it wasn\u2019t a water organisation, and why, then, is the term \u201Cterritorial authority\u201D used rather than \u201Ca water services provider\u201D? I\u2019m asking the Minister to be clear in the legislation about why these terms are used and how the two sets of terms interact together, given that there is that overlap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENoting, going back to clause 59A, that it\u2019s talking about that \u201CThe purpose of this subpart is to provide water organisations\u201D\u2014the defined term\u2014\u201Cwith the ability to charge for providing water services\u201D. Then, of course, \u201Cwater services\u201D is a defined term and different from \u201Cwater services provider\u201D, which is the defined term, but here we have it providing water services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI know that the Parliamentary Counsel Office will have used those terms for specific reasons, and my question to the Minister, as we get into the depths of the bill, is: can he explain why, and where will we see that throughout the rest of the bill, as well? Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00224512cc58ffe14520878ba94008a02acf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224512cc58ffe14520878ba94008a02acf\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E In regards to questions on clauses 59 and 60 and specific questions around ministerial intervention powers, the ministerial intervention powers are outlined as part of the Local Government Act, not this bill, so it\u2019s not in scope in the context of the question for this part of the bill. However, the elements, in addition to ministerial intervention powers, also include the fact that under this model, there will be economic regulation, and the economic regulator also has mechanisms and powers to intervene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the points around fair pricing and the equities and challenges in regards to charges for those individuals and their means to pay, one of the key elements of economic regulation is that assurance that the prices charged for water are fair prices in the context of the costs incurred in order to provide those services. That, again, is a regulated area of the reforms. There are plenty of belts and braces in the context of protections around ensuring that the prices of water, through this mechanism, are appropriate, and when there are cases of hardship, then there are mechanisms in front of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the questions around defined terms, again, this was discussed at length through the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002256ce402a826849a595b58fe89cf43b1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256ce402a826849a595b58fe89cf43b1a\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, sorry to interrupt the Hon Rachel Brooking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI wanted to direct my questions to this whole subpart, but particularly around a subclause, so clause 61(3): \u201CA water organisation must not collect a charge for stormwater services from a corridor manager.\u201D We have real concerns about this, because, ultimately, we\u2019ve got all these different\u2014we\u2019re trying to set up a kind of user-pays approach, right? I mean, that\u2019s my understanding of this system\u2014is we\u2019re transitioning away from a sort of, like, general charges linked to rates and rateable value, to more direct charging of people who are putting costs onto our different water networks, or taking water out. Stormwater, in particular, is very, very influenced by urban development; it\u2019s influenced by transport infrastructure. If we want to get better outcomes, there\u2019s huge opportunities to get much better outcomes for our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EHere, the users of water\u2014whether it\u2019s drinking water, waste water, stormwater\u2014are all expected to be charged for it. But we\u2019re saying that the Government is completely exempting corridor managers, and I\u2019m wondering\u2014so that\u2019s for ongoing costs, but at the point at which we\u2019re making decisions about which infrastructure to build and how to build it, it would make a lot of sense, I would think, if the people providing and managing the corridor were thinking about minimising stormwater costs at the time of design of the project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ELast year, I attended the World Green Infrastructure Congress in Auckland, and there\u2019ve been developments right around the world where they\u2019re calling for a greener approach to infrastructure that can massively reduce the cost on our stormwater system. Yet if we\u2019re excluding the ability of water organisations to charge for stormwater collection services from corridor managers, where is the incentive for the people designing and building the infrastructure to reduce the runoff of stormwater and the costs on the system? Who has the ability to require the infrastructure designer and provider to use low-impact development, for example, which would reduce the cost on the reticulated system but would also have a whole lot of co-benefits in terms of water quality, nature, and amenity in the area?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBack when we had those horrific floods\u2014which are becoming very, very common now up in Auckland\u2014there was a big emphasis on sponge cities. I\u2019m just wondering, through this provision, if we\u2019re not allowing for direct charging, who has the responsibility? A water organisation, presumably, is not going to have the ability to regulate the New Zealand Transport Agency or councils in terms of their infrastructure, or a private developer in terms of their infrastructure design. If you\u2019re relying on direct user-charges but we\u2019re excluding the ability of transport corridor managers to be charged, where is the incentive going to come from for the corridor manager to minimise the impact on the stormwater system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThis was one of the reasons why the Green Party, even back when the last Government was looking at three waters, was advocating for councils to retain stormwater, because there\u2019s such a connection between urban development, transport, and stormwater. There\u2019s a huge opportunity to mitigate costs and get better outcomes by doing things differently. But in order for us to do so, we need to have those costs be more direct. Now that it is potentially sitting with a water organisation, whether that\u2019s a council or someone else they\u2019ve put it down to, I\u2019m just wondering about this clause 61(3) and why transport corridor managers have been excluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIf the Minister could comment on that and what he sees\u2014I mean, obviously, with the amendment that was just dropped, there are a whole lot of, like, technical tidy-up changes to the bill, but is there anywhere providing for incentives for green infrastructure, particularly the management of stormwater in this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022a835d6e6ed2042a0bf222fa2a765157b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a835d6e6ed2042a0bf222fa2a765157b\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question and agree in principle, because the points that the member\u2019s making in regards to whether stormwater is, in effect, in or out are absolutely areas that I\u2019m having flashbacks now of discussing in prior lives. That is the point of why we have given, under this structure, the choice around how that works. Auckland\u2019s a good example, right? We\u2019ve got Healthy Waters, which sits outside of Watercare. In effect, Watercare is a water services entity, but stormwater sits outside that. It works in that context, but in other parts of the country that\u2019s not applicable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe choice around where stormwater sits is a determination for local communities, and there are examples of where it\u2019s included within an entity and where it\u2019s not. Our view is that that\u2019s the most optimal way to deal with this, because of the reality of how stormwater is so heavily integrated, particularly in an urban setting in regards to the way in which you\u2019ve got parks and reserves and other multi-purpose venues. Again, horses for courses, but that\u2019s the way in which the flexibility of the bill allows for different circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002220a6b3dea0e543fba02cd4d81a2ea46e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220a6b3dea0e543fba02cd4d81a2ea46e\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Remaining on this topic about clause 61(3) and the transport corridor being exempt from a charge, the Minister, just in his response to the Hon Julie Anne Genter, said that it\u2019s up to the local community to choose how they deal with stormwater. I agree with both members, both Minister and member, that stormwater is a difficult issue to deal with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m interested to know is that some \u201Ctransport corridor manager\u201D\u2014which is the phrase used\u2014who cannot be charged are not councils, I\u2019m presuming. If you go back to the definitions of \u201Ctransport corridor manager\u201D, there\u2019s nothing in the definition section. \u201CTransport corridor\u201D relates to section 4 of the Utilities Access Act 2010, I think. Presumably\u2014and I apologise; I haven\u2019t looked up what that section says\u2014a transport corridor manager could be the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA); it could be a council. My question is: could it be anybody else? I understand where it\u2019s a council that the council\u2019s obviously related in the service provider, as well, but what about when it is NZTA being a transport corridor manager, if that\u2019s a possibility\u2014why shouldn\u2019t there be a collection of charge? Also, can a transport corridor manager be a private organisation? For instance, if you\u2019re doing a large subdivision somewhere, and you might have private roads within that subdivision, does that make you a transport corridor manager and mean that there cannot be a charge for those stormwater services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGoing back to where it\u2019s NZTA, was there any consideration of the exemption in Part 1 for the Crown around development contributions not being paid to the Crown\u2014a consideration of this exemption being part of the earlier on provision about where the Act binds the Crown or not? So a couple of questions in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI note that I was out for the Part 2 debate. I was meeting with Beef \u002B Lamb\u2014I acknowledge Minister Hoggard, who\u2019s also been meeting with them\u2014and they were telling me as part of that conversation that it is a large annoyance to them. This was a specific example that they gave: you can do a whole lot of wetland protection, but then there\u2019s a road and there\u2019s a flooding event and there\u2019s a stormwater runoff from the road and then they get blamed for it. There are real difficult issues around roads and stormwater. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI want to also make the point that the Minister, in his answer to my other question, was a non-answer. He said the select committee have traversed the issue of the phrases around water organisations and what it means, and the different phrasing in the bill. This opportunity that we have in the House, in the committee stage, is to get things into Hansard and to have things explained in a way that they are not in the select committee report. I wonder if the Minister understands the difference in those terms, if he continues to refuse to answer this question. I encourage the Minister to rethink his answers, where he just says, \u201CThings were discussed at select committee\u201D, and to use this opportunity to explain and to make his case, which will then be helpful for people who are coming to this very large bill and come across different clauses and wonder what it\u2019s about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ETwo questions there. One is around this transport corridor manager: who they are, can it be private bodies as well as the NZTA, and did he consider the role of them\u2014and, presumably, it\u2019s also councils. Secondly, if he can reconsider his answers that just refer back to the select committee. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8032e0c4f304f4787399225f563adc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8032e0c4f304f4787399225f563adc4\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E In regards to questions around transport corridors, I refer the member Rachel Brooking to clause 176, which provides for the integrated management of that aspect. Each participant carries their own costs in regards to the way in which those components operate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the other question, all I remember was the point around Beef \u002B Lamb New Zealand. I was just thinking, coming up to lunchtime and five hours into this bill, how hungry I am and I was thinking of lamb chops, but I can\u2019t make any other further comment in regards to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f496169c9f2547b98bf97d3c12030846\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f496169c9f2547b98bf97d3c12030846\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So the question was around\u2014and maybe the Minister of Local Government answered it\u2014could there be private roads that are considered? Also, where does the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) fit with it, and if NZTA is a transport corridor manager, should there not be some ability to charge for the stormwater service so the farmers don\u2019t get blamed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00223c345b77cd704c2b8f58f34a0612c1bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c345b77cd704c2b8f58f34a0612c1bd\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have two questions\u2014well, two and a half questions\u2014for the Minister. The first one is that the Minister has, just before, mentioned about water organisations having the choice. I\u2019m looking at clause 61(3), which my colleague the Hon Julie Anne Genter has touched on before, but can I just check\u2014clause 61(3) doesn\u2019t allow there to be a choice, because the wording is \u201Cmust not collect\u201D, so can I just check with the Minister what he means by \u201Cchoice\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAlso just in terms of this section around stormwater, one of the things we did see in terms of the submission\u2014which then allowed for the amendment to include a definition of \u201Cstormwater service zone\u201D\u2014is to do with the fact that a lot of the things we are currently seeing regarding stormwater management is around man-made infrastructure such as piping etc. I think, with regard to this part but also in relation to what my colleague Hon Julie Anne Genter mentioned before, how does that give allowances for alternative and more natural than man-made considerations to stormwater management? That\u2019s my first question around this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy second question is around clause 60(3): \u201CWhen setting a charge, the water organisation may determine\u2014\u201D. Now, going through the departmental report, there\u2019s a number of considerations of things in terms of charges being assessed, due, collected, etc., but one of the things I haven\u2019t noticed in this\u2014and I wanted to check with the Minister if that has been an active consideration\u2014is whether charges can be deferred. What we see, for example, in terms of council rates and the number of councils which allow the deferment of the payment of rates, particularly for senior citizens, for example\u2014does this clause also give allowances to deferment, if that has been a consideration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThose are my two questions. One of them is clarification on choice if the legislation\u2014specifically clause 61(3)\u2014specifically says \u201Cmust not\u201D and around broader considerations of natural versus man-made stormwater management, and then also in terms of deferment of rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022482e06889443438ea3c46f080b10af5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022482e06889443438ea3c46f080b10af5c\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I note that the Minister of Local Government has talked about the amount of time that this seems to be taking, so my first question to the Minister: is he expecting that this will be done before 1 o\u2019clock, or is he actually prepared to work through some of the issues that have been raised to identify the fact that households in this country would rather he focus on ensuring that they can actually meet these costs rather than what he\u2019s going to have for lunch? That\u2019s the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe second question is around the modelling and whether or not there has been any modelling that has been done to assess the impact of what these provisions will mean for household budgets\u2014is the first one there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIn terms of clause 61, clause 61 is about the additional requirements for setting the particular charges for stormwater services. The Minister has talked around the fact that there will be a fair process around some of these issues, and he\u2019s also talked about how the ministerial intervention power is not contained in this bill; it\u2019s in the Local Government Act. But how will the Government, when it looks at clause 61, ensure that stormwater charges are transparent and based on actual use that\u2019s being received, or does he suggest that that\u2019s actually something that doesn\u2019t fall within the Government\u2019s remit but needs to be dealt with by the various service providers that are stood up as a result of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThen I\u2019m also interested, in the same clause, around what protections, if any, there are for ratepayers who find themselves in areas where there might be informal forms of infrastructure, or what could be described as legacy infrastructure, over many years as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to also touch on clause 62. This is about the serviceability charge, where a property is not connected to the network. I guess there\u2019s a question there around whether that\u2019s going to be\u2014there is a risk there, depending on what councils opt for, as to whether there is some certainty and consistency being provided or whether there is going to be some variation, and whether the Minister is comfortable with that, as well. We all know that councils, under this reform, will adopt different approaches based on a handful of options, but when it comes to the serviceability charge, where does that, particularly, land itself or find itself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe only other question that I have on clause 62 at this stage is again around the thresholds. We had asked questions previously around where a referendum had been held and the trigger point was 75 percent for one course of action and 50 percent for another course of action. When it relates to clause 62(3), where the property is 50 percent non-rateable land as specified, then the organisation can only set a charge that is 50 percent of it. Why is it 50 percent is the particular threshold there, whereas land might actually be non-rateable at a higher threshold? Is it then not fair to assume that a higher threshold of the charge would be applicable or not, or is it just that it\u2019s a 50 percent mechanism and therefore 50 percent is easiest to pursue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022151eb75168284fccad3cfeaa7dc1156e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022151eb75168284fccad3cfeaa7dc1156e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E In regards to questions on clause 62 and the member\u2019s question to me asking am I comfortable with that, I am comfortable. The due process in regards to that, again, has been well considered by officials and input from the Finance and Expenditure Committee to enhance it. In regards to clause 62(3) and the percentage, I refer the member to that clause where it stipulates the Local Government (Rating) Act reference in regards to the proxy for that number, and that\u2019s the basis for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00228f50df22d46c4124b4ce83232211b1ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f50df22d46c4124b4ce83232211b1ee\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Moving on to clauses 70A and 70B\u2014this is the waiver of water services charges. Clause 70A sets up that a water organisation may waive those charges, but it\u2019s got to do so in accordance with its waiver policy. Then you look down and clause 70B is \u201CWater organisation must adopt and publish waiver policy\u201D. What I\u2019m interested in is the criteria around that waiver policy, because I was expecting to see that in clause\u00A070B, but instead we just see that a water organisation must prepare and adopt a policy for a water services charge or a penalty. When preparing that policy, they must use its significance and engagement policy to determine the amount of public consultation and the form of their consultation, and then it must make its waiver policy publicly available. What seems to be missing from this clause is that there are no criteria about why they might be waiving it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe heard in an earlier contribution from my colleague Tangi Utikere about whether or not there have been any equity considerations. What are the types of criteria or circumstances that the Minister considers would be appropriate for a waiver of policy, and would they include issues such as the ability to pay, or that there are a large number of people in a household, or there is particular hardship? I think it would be useful for the Minister to explain what his expectations for a waiver policy are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b98da44c8a3645febebf1c3bcf67c7ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b98da44c8a3645febebf1c3bcf67c7ac\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to turn now to clause 64. This is the ability or requirement for a water organisation to publish the list of charges. We\u2019re already in a situation where the transfer has taken place. They\u2019ve gone through a process of identifying what the various charges might be. One of the interesting things with this clause is that it, basically, identifies the fact that there is an accountability frame here\u2014that water organisations will not just be expected but required to set out their full list of charges. Consumers are familiar with this. If they get an electricity bill or if they get a rates notice, these are always broken down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI certainly support the public accountability sort of aspect of requiring these entities and organisations to publish the list and for that to be on a frequent sort of basis\u2014so too with the requirement for the organisations, if they charge a particular fee or a rate and then a change follows, for them to go ahead and make the publicly available list known and that the charge has been changed. What I don\u2019t see, though, in this particular section is reference to the consequence where organisations don\u2019t actually do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EElsewhere in this bill, we have examples where there is an expectation and, if things don\u2019t happen, there is a consequence. We saw that with the consumer trust bills, where someone is liable on conviction to a certain fine. The Minister didn\u2019t address that at the time\u2014OK, park that\u2014but where is the consequence for an organisation who either fails to publish the list of charges or fails to follow up, in a reasonable time frame, to publish a list of charges or a change to a charge once the change has been authorised by the entity or the organisation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThere is nothing in this particular section, and I guess that lends itself to an argument about, \u201CIf there is nothing, should there be something?\u201D Otherwise, effectively, on the one hand, the Government is saying they want to be publicly accountable and transparent\u2014I totally accept that. I think that is a good move and would support that. But so too is the requirement that, if these entities don\u2019t actually follow through with that\u2014well, what is the consequence? What is the consequence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to hear from the Minister: where is there a consequence, and if there isn\u2019t\u2014maybe it\u2019s caught up in a catch-all, that if a certain provision of a section is not met, then this is the consequence or the penalty provision. But there is no penalty provision. And if not, how can the public have confidence in the ability for these organisations to actually follow through with that, to be transparent if there isn\u2019t not just an obligation but a sanction that would be imposed if they were not to do so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u00223bacd9f865f149ed9a3ef7f8a136860d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bacd9f865f149ed9a3ef7f8a136860d\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. T\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Minita. I wanted to ask some questions about clause 109 and the Crown exemptions from development contributions. Earlier on, there was a reasonable amount of questioning and, in my view, some unhelpful answers talking about why central government chose not to fund, not to support, local government in the water services area. But in clause 109 it suggests that the Crown should be exempt from development contributions, so it sounds to me like the Minister of Local Government is expecting local government to subsidise central government. Development contributions are created for a reason, so that growth that requires new infrastructure pays for that infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EIn particular, I find it egregious that K\u0101inga Ora\u2014oh, it\u2019s so nice to see te reo first\u2014Homes and Communities should expect to pay. We\u2019re expecting public housing, which then has to extract rental payments from often our most impoverished, is going to pay a development contribution, but if the Ministry for Regulation set up a brand-spanking-new office\u2014let\u2019s say maybe in Epsom, just to be convenient for commuting\u2014they wouldn\u2019t pay development contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to answer why the Crown, in its most supportive area, has to pay development contributions, but other parts of the Crown, which may be essential or may not be essential but are certainly not providing low-income housing, are expected to pay. I\u2019d like to refer him to Taituar\u0101, the local government management organisation, and also Infrastructure New Zealand and Water New Zealand and many councils\u2014they submitted that the Crown should not be exempt from development contributions, and they wanted clause 109 to be deleted. They did not necessarily draw that distinction between the Crown as in K\u0101inga Ora and in other manifestations of the Crown. At least there should be an exemption that the Crown applies for in specific examples. Whang\u0101rei District Council has got a specific recommendation to change its clause so that instead of making the Crown exempt, their assessment criterion is on the impact of any development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EWe do think that the equivalent regime, the Local Government Act, is out of date. It\u2019s inconsistent with a partnership between central and local government. The local government Minister and the Minister for this bill may like to comment on whether this is consistent with his view of a partnership between central and local government. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5d8d613b3244424ae16ff1614771d35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5d8d613b3244424ae16ff1614771d35\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, members, for those questions. In regard to the questions around the consequences and ministerial intervention in clause 64, the consequences and the provisions for monitoring and ministerial intervention are included within the Local Government Act and not this Act, as mentioned on a few occasions already\u2014so, out of scope, but that\u2019s where the member can find that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regard to clause 109 around the exemption portion noted there, this is basically a continuation of the status quo. Development contributions are being replaced by a new development levy mechanism\u2014again, that I noted last evening\u2014under the Going for Housing Growth policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAnother question was asked in regard to\u2014I didn\u2019t get the clause number\u2014the waiver policy. Basically, this is providing for local choice. It\u2019s really up to the local water organisation and the shareholding council to determine the appropriate mechanisms as and when that waiver policy will be put into place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002223333780c88e4efd910a8b48023d7646\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223333780c88e4efd910a8b48023d7646\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, and thank you for answering my question about the waiver policy. I appreciate that it\u2019s up to the council, then, or the water organisation. You touched on, last night\u2014and you just touched on it then again\u2014the changes to the development contributions from the primary legislation, being the Local Government Act (LGA), changing at some point in the future to development levies. A question, then, is: how does he foresee those changes impacting on all these provisions in this bill relating to development contributions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI also query the lack of criteria for the waiver policy, which the Minister of Local Government just said is about choice, and note that in the development contributions\u2014which is often a bigger amount of money than what a waiver would be; I acknowledge that. But what happens in the bill at clause\u00A087 is the \u201CContents of development contributions policy\u201D, and at subclause (1)(c) it refers to explain, \u201Cby reference to the considerations set out in section 101(3) of the LGA 2002 \u2026 why the water organisation has determined to use the funding sources referred to\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen if you go to section 101(3) of the LGA, it does then say, \u201CThe funding needs of the local authority must be met from those sources that the local authority determines to be appropriate, following consideration of, (a) in relation to each activity to be funded, (i) the community outcomes to which the activity primarily contributes; and (ii) the distribution of benefits between the community as a whole, any identifiable part of the community, and individuals; and (iii) the period [that] those benefits are expected to occur; and (iv) the extent to which the actions or inaction of particular individuals or a group contribute to the need to undertake the activity; and (v) the costs and benefits \u2026 for transparency\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMy point is: there you have some criteria in a statute that seem sensible and also give enough room for the local water organisation to work out how they\u2019re going to do the development contribution under those criteria. So why not have criteria for the waiver policy and\u2014and\u2014include in those criteria the issues of equity that seem to be missing from everywhere in this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, noting, as well, that this Government\u2014and apologies if there are changes made to the Local Government Act by this bill later on\u2014has said that it\u2019s going to change the purpose of the Local Government Act to get rid of the four wellbeings. If you don\u2019t have those wellbeings, will that constrain councils\u2019 ability to consider equity issues under the waiver policy? Has he considered the interactions between the proposed changes to the Local Government Act and then how they\u2019ll play out in this water services framework with these new entities that won\u2019t have those wellbeings to fall back on to consider issues of equity, and is that, in fact, his point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u00221ffdbd6fc1a54d6994c4e729018fee38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ffdbd6fc1a54d6994c4e729018fee38\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00224a0dab2d6d0a41f0955148a947172269\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a0dab2d6d0a41f0955148a947172269\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve got some questions that relate to Subpart 2 in the development contributions space. In particular, I want to look at clause 81. This is about the development contributions agreements that would be entered into and what is, basically, a legislative requirement to share the information that\u2019s been made available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, this clause, as proposed, is quite\u2014some significant change, a lot of it around the wording that\u2019s to be used, as well. But this is only applicable where a water organisation seeks to adopt a policy for development contributions (DCs) under the provisions of this law. They do need to be able to request relevant information in order to assess DC levels, but there is a provision there around the information being made reasonably available. My question for the Government progressing this bill is really around how the Government intends that there will be a guarantee or an assurance that this information will be shared and made in a timely manner. What we\u2019re hearing a lot from the Minister of Local Government is that there are provisions already contained in other legislation to guide this, whether it\u2019s a carrot or a stick sort of approach. I do thank the Minister for his answers around that. He answered my question around what sort of consequence or penalty provision exists\u2014very helpful, Minister. Thank you for identifying that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy question is around how the Government intends to ensure that the data sharing or information sharing that\u2019s provided is transparent but also that there is some accountability around that. If it\u2019s the water services organisation seeking to gather that information and where they request it from, the current approach in many circumstances is that it requires a proactive release on the local territorial authority\u2019s part or it\u2019s in response to some other method like the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Act when it concerns the sector. So a question there around how the Government intends that that will be transparent, but also will there be a level of accountability around that as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhen it concerns clause 83, and this is around\u2014OK, all of that happens; now, what is going to be the consequential or the resultant limit on the policy for an authority around DCs or contributions of a financial nature? Again, what sort of approach is the Government thinking around ensuring that the timeliness of organisations to update that information, particularly councils, is going to be done in a timely way? There is nothing in here except to say that yes, they must amend it in order to remove duplication that exists because it\u2019s contained within the water organisation\u2019s DC policy. But is there, within that, sort of, suite of provisions, a requirement that there is going to be councils updating and sharing that promptly, accurately, and in a timely manner, and, if so, what sort of support will be available to councils as part of that transition process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2a7be84976e495e8c6478a5a2273a99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2a7be84976e495e8c6478a5a2273a99\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In regards to clauses 81 and 83, the question is primarily seeking guidance around additional powers to ensure that the information disclosure components outlined in the bill actually do occur, and, if they don\u2019t, what mechanisms are in place to ensure that they do. I\u2019ve outlined already the ministerial intervention powers. In addition to that, as part of this, these entities will be subject to economic regulation by the Commerce Commission. The Commerce Commission, as the member will be aware, has a multitude of powers and mechanisms in order to ensure that information is provided in a manner that is appropriate. The ability for that independent organisation to achieve its means\u2014it has a variety of tools within its toolkit to do that, both soft and hard, and it will consider those mechanisms as appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, the reporting of this information in a public manner, including some of the work Government is doing in regards to reporting and increasing transparency and accountability of local government, are also other mechanisms. So there are a multitude of mechanisms in order to achieve the outcome, and protect and ensure that the outcome is achieved as the member is outlining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u0022e23e1fb1e1dc4026b5de3ca7990ed540\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e23e1fb1e1dc4026b5de3ca7990ed540\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m not convinced that the Minister of Local Government fully answered the question about why K\u0101inga Ora was the exception, and maybe he can be more fulsome in his answer there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EMy question now is on clause 168A. We recently, through the Statutes Amendment Bill, had some discussion in the Governance and Administration Committee about when audiovisual and when audio links are appropriate. I note that under subsection (5), it says \u201CFor the purposes of, but without limiting, subsection (4)(d), the provider may allow any person to present their views to the territorial authority by way of audio link or audiovisual link.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EMy question is: why be so equivocal? Why not say they \u201Cmust\u201D allow them? I mean, some people will want to come in in person\u2014they find that more convincing, more convenient. In the Wairarapa electorate, it\u2019s fairly thinly populated, people are often a long way away from the council office, and you usually get a five- or 10-minute opportunity to present. It is just not efficient nor inclusive, in my view, to say that it\u2019s up to the provider to choose whether they should be able to do audio link or audiovisual link. Lan Pham has a tabled amendment to strengthen that. Why would he discourage a provider from having to make that provision? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EIn this day and age, it certainly won\u2019t be the territorial authority that lacks the capacity for having audio link or audiovisual link. We certainly don\u2019t have to worry, in this example, if it is audio only. Many rural properties have, unfortunately, less than stellar internet access, whereas\u2014again, going back to the example in the Statutes Amendment Bill\u2014it was quite clear that it needed to be audiovisual so you could be quite clear that somebody wasn\u2019t being coerced. I don\u2019t think anyone\u2019s going to be coerced into making a submission to a territorial authority. So, quite happy that it\u2019s audio link or audiovisual link, but not at all happy with them not being required to provide that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00226aaf2f5e91a6409f9c63b84e7d6932cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226aaf2f5e91a6409f9c63b84e7d6932cb\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022abda1edabfbb4a96991a2ebe04ce5ba1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abda1edabfbb4a96991a2ebe04ce5ba1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to put the question just yet, as long as there is new material coming through. The Hon Rachel Brooking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226470dbb4d07544faa5cb5a7d7b32f2f5\u0022\u003EHon Simon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, sorry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022befd6dd09a1a4a6d895cb882236f1c9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022befd6dd09a1a4a6d895cb882236f1c9e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I\u2019d already called. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c87d29865d1a4474bde355933f9e98cf\u0022\u003EHon Simon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, I was going to answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00222a2720389ac54660ae2bc426ebab8dbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a2720389ac54660ae2bc426ebab8dbf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, the Hon Simon Watts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e162f494ac5a42ca8b2ac54696174239\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e162f494ac5a42ca8b2ac54696174239\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity. Clause\u00A0168A(5) actually enables the use of audio and audiovisual services. The precedent that may exist in the status quo is that that option is not, so it\u2019s providing additional mechanisms. Again, it\u2019s not one-size-fits-all, but that\u2019s the purpose of that clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1a23cee553c477a8e1cbbb41bf23885\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1a23cee553c477a8e1cbbb41bf23885\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to move on to Subpart 3 of Part 3. I know people might be on other subparts, but this is about \u201CWater service networks: connections\u201D. My questions are really around by-laws. Clause 110 is \u201CBylaws for purposes of connections\u201D. Again, it might be useful for the Minister of Local Government to explain the different terms that are being used, that he says were well traversed in the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014a select committee that I wasn\u2019t on, and a select committee that doesn\u2019t have Hansard recorded like this House does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWhy it\u2019s relevant to this point is because a water services by-law can be made\u2014this is a territorial authority making this by-law about connections\u2014but then there\u2019s a reference in subclause (1A) to a water services by-law being made under section 347. If you go to clause 347\u2014and I acknowledge that it\u2019s in a different part of the bill\u2014it\u2019s about water service providers making by-laws. So I\u2019m interested in the relationship between the different by-laws and the water service providers. Also, the select committee seems to have amended quite a lot of this clause about the by-laws, and there\u2019s a\u2014and this isn\u2019t a change\u2014three-step approach about approval of concept plans, approval of engineering plans, and sign-off. Everything about this by-law, in this clause 101, seems to be about new connections. I\u2019m wondering if there\u2019s any provision for by-laws relating to existing connections that might need some sort of authorisation or some change, or is it only to new connections, and what happens if those triggers don\u2019t need to exist\u2014so if there is no resource consent, which comes up later?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also wondering, given that water services connections are probably quite similar around the country, if there\u2019s any desire from the Minister for a template by-law to be produced for those water service providers, or if they\u2019re being encouraged to work together so that it was the same throughout the country, and where those differences might lie, but, again, how this by-law about the water services connection made by the territorial authority will link into those other by-laws made by the water services provider, and what the difference is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8456b4f48ff42b78ed7f03585407d67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8456b4f48ff42b78ed7f03585407d67\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to get a very quick clarification from the Minister first. In both Amendment Paper 346 and also in the original version from the select committee, would the Minister help clarify where does Subpart 5 start, because I can see that Subpart 4, \u201CAccessing land to carry out water services infrastructure work\u201D, starts at clause\u00A0115, but I can\u2019t see a subheading for Subpart 5, and then we go to Subpart 6, \u201CTrade waste discharges\u201D, in clause 149. That\u2019s just more of a formatting question for the Minister, if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI think my section is related to Subpart 4, \u201CAccessing land to carry out water services infrastructure work\u201D, and I want to ask the Minister specifically about clauses 129 and 130. Now, the reason I want to focus on this area, which is around appeals relating to M\u0101ori-owned land\u2014appeals both to the M\u0101ori Land Court and the M\u0101ori Appellate Court\u2014is because this is one of the few sections in Part\u00A03 that has a substantial change between Amendment Paper 346 and the version that came out of the select committee. In Amendment Paper 346, clause 129 has added subclauses (5) and (6). I want to focus on subclause (6) here, because in the previous version, when we\u2019re looking at clause 129, it doesn\u2019t specify in terms of the reviewer\u2019s determination, but in this case, what we are looking at is a separation between when an owner of M\u0101ori land appeals and when the services provider appeals. I wanted to check with the Minister on the rationale on splitting those two. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThen, in clause 129(6), it gives very specific instructions on elements that the M\u0101ori Land Court may make orders on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00226a5b6d79ac49455f93c2f715f92312d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a5b6d79ac49455f93c2f715f92312d4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member, but it is time to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00222b88a71ebb69435fa14b0038aa912f4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b88a71ebb69435fa14b0038aa912f4e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Local Government (Water Services) Bill and reports that it has made progress on the bill. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002258cb218b62204bc19e8e0d995e916af7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258cb218b62204bc19e8e0d995e916af7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for further consideration in committee next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.57 p.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20250729ccf2cd4522d54dd4800d458ecf5b8f73000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"