"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a50b88e33b24477a4a8eae8f7ba5ed5\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 13 AUGUST 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225af7a45fa42448409a38e9c5d9e6f537\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 13 AUGUST 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221cd6a17d21074d1780cd0e178d0e9517\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d56fe610e8e14999b4b208699e9a0111\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e64a7aeabd1e496b9a39adc326deca6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e64a7aeabd1e496b9a39adc326deca6b\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E E te Atua kaha rawa, ka tuku whakamoemiti atu m\u0101tou, m\u014D ng\u0101 karakia kua waihotia mai ki runga i a m\u0101tou. Ka waiho i \u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101nga whaiaro katoa ki te taha. Ka mihi m\u0101tou ki te K\u012Bngi, me te inoi atu m\u014D te \u0101rahitanga i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaroarohanga, kia m\u014Dhio ai, kia whakaiti ai t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakahaere i ng\u0101 take o te Whare nei, m\u014D te oranga, te maung\u0101rongo, me te aroha o Aotearoa. \u0100mene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E[Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King, and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility for the welfare, peace and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e71dc88e57cb4bcb9efde85b92a2c613\u0022\u003ENaming and Suspension of Member\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228f952ea529f647fca811121318021f33\u0022\u003ENaming and Suspension of Member\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a35ab22b5a9b48a18c38972106c9957a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a35ab22b5a9b48a18c38972106c9957a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I invite Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick to withdraw and apologise for an offensive comment made in the House yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u00222e4c4ed7c55f48369fedeac2e9f8174c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e4c4ed7c55f48369fedeac2e9f8174c\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I won\u2019t be doing that, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002290f1bc6421c445c2a12a78ea697fa529\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290f1bc6421c445c2a12a78ea697fa529\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Then the member will leave the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022142ddc13c8e44ed88f9ae861eeb14b6d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f48616ccac184dd9b19aaf0315315ef0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member will leave the House. Sorry, there\u2019s not a point of order at this point. Is the member refusing to leave the House? I therefore name Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002294291990f3904cc1bbc65d55216532cb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick be named.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022db2ed0ac1ba24ee287fb275b5ebd8d74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db2ed0ac1ba24ee287fb275b5ebd8d74\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will leave the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick withdrew from the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd857dd0f5ed4c54930bb922c1598add\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd857dd0f5ed4c54930bb922c1598add\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I have two points of order, but I think perhaps the first is the one that most urgently needs to be addressed, which is as to what the House has just voted on. The Standing Orders are actually quite specific about a motion to suspend a member and the words that you need to use, as Speaker, in order to do so. You haven\u2019t, I believe, followed the requirements of the Standing Orders, so I wonder whether you could indicate to us what the motion that the House just voted on actually was, because if it was the one that you spoke, it doesn\u2019t have the effect that you think it does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229c4a165566724e8f8ee6a465386e9ece\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c4a165566724e8f8ee6a465386e9ece\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in that case, I\u2019ll put it again that Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick be suspended from the service of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229b40992d0f0c49208e8604b5a00fc770\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick be suspended from the service of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222b2fbf64886643d1affc4e1d8bc9c6ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b2fbf64886643d1affc4e1d8bc9c6ec\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies to the House for getting that wrong in the pedantics of the words that were required. It\u2019s not a usual thing for a matter like this to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022891b4760ef2a4d5397f37c2aef16d8cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022891b4760ef2a4d5397f37c2aef16d8cd\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ve been in the House quite a long time, and there have been plenty of instances where members have been ejected from the Chamber for the rest of the day for doing exactly what Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick did. There is not a single instance where a member has been asked to withdraw and apologise the following sitting day and then named for not doing that. There has only been one instance that I can recall where a member was subsequently asked to withdraw a comment, and that was the Rt Hon John Key when he said that members of the Opposition supported rapists and murderers. At the time, he received a standing ovation from the National Party. That was a very controversial matter, and it was at least a week later that the Speaker asked him to withdraw and apologise in order to restore order in the House, which had been lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI think the naming of a member for something they had done the day before is not something that has ever happened in the House before. I wonder whether you can reflect on what precedent or Standing Order you\u2019re relying on in asking Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick to apologise for something the day before, because I did check the Speakers\u2019 Rulings, and Jonathan Hunt back in 2001 specifically ruled that where a member refused to apologise and was ordered to leave the Chamber by the Speaker, the matter is at an end at that point. So that has been the established practice of the House since 2001, and I wonder if you could indicate why that has changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4d05d6c607a44bab615150de55e29d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4d05d6c607a44bab615150de55e29d7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Because the Standing Orders Committee met in July of 2017 and brought down a new Speaker\u2019s ruling, Speaker\u2019s ruling 23/1. I refer the member to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef62e981085942a6884ff7d07923cd0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef62e981085942a6884ff7d07923cd0a\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Musterer\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you so much. In relation to Speaker\u2019s ruling 23/1, which is what the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins was speaking about, there\u2019s a line that says, \u201CWhere an incident may have a continued impact on the House\u2019s ability to deal with its business, the Speaker can address the matter.\u201D Is it your view that this meets that threshold?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002253f8dcdd705a4ee6b356b04a445536fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253f8dcdd705a4ee6b356b04a445536fc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If that\u2019s how the member wants to take it, but if you think about the comment that was made, 68 members of this House were accused of being spineless. There has never been a time when personal insults like that delivered inside a speech were accepted by this House, and I\u2019m not about to start accepting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a597b454808648c693cb19529cab9771\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a597b454808648c693cb19529cab9771\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, I\u2019ve been in this House when a Prime Minister accused the Opposition of \u201Cgetting some guts\u201D\u2014it was a serious accusation; nothing happened\u2014and then, worse, I\u2019ve heard the \u201Cc\u201D word being accepted as language that can be used in this House. My personal view is that I don\u2019t agree with a thing that Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick said at all, but this is a robust House where people have a right to express their views as passionately as they may, within certain rules, and I do not think that eviction was warranted. That\u2019s my position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d004eb76bc644e6680952ab54a5b82e4\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225a9565c2fe784ae78b97bfe9b012bf74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a9565c2fe784ae78b97bfe9b012bf74\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let me just respond to that before I take the multitude of points of order that people want to raise. The first is that there are considerable efforts being made at the moment across the Parliamentary Service to deal with what might be described as cyberbullying, and, essentially, what it comes down to is a question of: what standard does the House want to set for itself? I\u2019ve decided that there are two things that can be looked at. One is that if there are interjections across the House and they are reactionary\u2014and there was one of those yesterday\u2014then that is not as egregious as someone taking their speaking time to include a gratuitous insult inside a speech. That is, in my opinion, from this point on\u2014while I\u2019m in the Chair\u2014unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI take the point the member makes about the House being a robust place\u2014it most certainly is. But if members are going to be disrespectful of one another in such a demonstrable way, then how on earth can we be upset about members of the public taking a similar approach to dealing with MPs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022b34fab8e93ea4a4c92a9d04ba233efe0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b34fab8e93ea4a4c92a9d04ba233efe0\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much, sir. Specifically, around how this House approaches this matter in future, we recognise that Speakers have the ability themselves to set new rulings, and, in doing so, they often refer to Standing Orders, which dictate the rules in which you, as Speaker, operate. Now, there is only one Standing Order that deals with this disorderly conduct\u2014Standing Order 90\u2014and in that Standing Order, it makes very clear that you, as Speaker, have the ability to withdraw a member from the House for up to one day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, yesterday, you suspended a member for the rest of the sitting week. It was then clarified that if the member did not apologise, they would be suspended again. We\u2019ve gone from a situation where Standing Order 90 was not followed by you and then we\u2019ve moved on to a situation where you have proposed to the House that a member be named. Now, the difference is that a member being withdrawn is highly disorderly and being named is grossly disorderly, and I can\u2019t see how a member could be deemed to have gone from being highly disorderly to grossly disorderly by complying with a rule that you set that was not consistent with the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002274671861c1cb4a4eaaff40559992278b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274671861c1cb4a4eaaff40559992278b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I don\u2019t agree with you that it wasn\u2019t consistent with the Standing Orders. The bit that was inconsistent was what I actually said, which was to leave the House for the week. What I left out is\u2014I probably should have said \u201Ccould be\u201D, but I accept that there were no bounds for that. But the fact that someone is asked to leave the House for a comment that has caused offence, and they do so for that day, does not mean that the offence has gone away. That can be a new thing written into the Speakers\u2019 rulings, if that\u2019s what it takes. But, in the end, my job is to make sure that this House is a House of Representatives but that it deals respectfully with each other, and there is a huge difference between the sort of commentary that you get by way of interjection\u2014which should be rare and has become far too frequent\u2014and a comment that is inside a speech delivered deliberately to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234ec880a29d744dfa71a23eeb80e0f9b\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed392c78ff7a4970ba857ec3f835777f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll hear his commentary to that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8d0a33e71f749d2801a22d4f1dd8cb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8d0a33e71f749d2801a22d4f1dd8cb6\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In regard to your reference to Speaker\u2019s ruling 23/1, it does indeed give you, as Speaker, the ability to approach a matter retrospectively, but what you\u2019ve just indicated now is that Speaker\u2019s ruling 21/1 is no longer in place. What the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins outlined, quite clearly\u2014and this is the only Speaker\u2019s ruling in reference to a situation like this\u2014was that once a member left the Chamber, \u201Cthe matter is at an end\u201D. Now, in that instance that it\u2019s referring to, it was around Phillida Bunkle, and it was almost exactly the situation that played out yesterday. Now, can you be very clear for the House that your ruling now is in direct contrast to this, and that Speaker\u2019s ruling 21/1, despite being in the Speakers\u2019 rulings, is no longer relevant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022eeecb7dd140c413cb99c383041322456\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eeecb7dd140c413cb99c383041322456\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s interesting. You may point out a contradiction inside the Speakers\u2019 rulings. Speaker\u2019s ruling 23/1 was brought down by the Standing Orders Committee, so it was clearly considered, and if there had been a contradiction, I\u2019m sure they would have recognised it at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00220d3e0edc72784252978265d6566025ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d3e0edc72784252978265d6566025ed\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Musterer\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. Having just heard the conversation, particularly the Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2019 comments, where he was commenting that that does not meet the threshold, I do want to ask whether there is a procedural way in which, potentially, that vote could be recast, seeing as we have just heard a Government party disagree with the way that things occurred?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a791cdb22e324c45b9ae8a23f079ef23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a791cdb22e324c45b9ae8a23f079ef23\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not aware of one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1d2138e71cc40e998d81159a541be25\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve already put it twice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f91b0340053a4a1ebacc9752754f4e5d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I didn\u2019t put it twice. Your letter made it very clear that it hadn\u2019t been put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00227edba382523b49238990d7921fc59af6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227edba382523b49238990d7921fc59af6\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I was on the Standing Orders Committee when the ruling that you\u2019ve just relied on was made. I supported that ruling being made, and I actually do support the underlying, I guess, tone of the ruling that you\u2019re trying to make today around the need to increase the tone of some of the language in the House and the broader effect that has on the public tone of debate around politics. My concern here is that we seem to have gone from one extreme to another very quickly, only involving one member and not all members. There\u2019s some very inflammatory language that\u2019s used around the House quite a lot, and one member seems to have been singled out for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe ruling that you mentioned was made in reference to the Rt Hon John Key\u2019s very inflammatory comments during that speech. He was not asked to withdraw and apologise for that at the time, nor was he asked to leave the Chamber; in fact, he got a standing ovation from the then Government members of the House. What then happened was that almost all Opposition members left the House because the Speaker refused to intervene, and it was on that basis that the Speaker subsequently came back to the House and asked him to withdraw and apologise some time later. The disorder in the House was the justification for doing so, in the sense that the Speaker was trying to restore order in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe ruling that you just mentioned that the Standing Orders Committee made specifically states that the threshold should be very, very high for that type of action. There was no disorder in the House once Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick had left yesterday, nor was there any today. The very high threshold that was envisaged by the Standing Orders Committee at the time certainly does not appear to have been met in this instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229efbd1eadad74f55af6d1aa7a859bd53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229efbd1eadad74f55af6d1aa7a859bd53\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s something that I have to make a judgment on. Can I just say that the special debate was allowed yesterday because this is an important matter\u2014no question about that. It\u2019s also a matter that there was very little division across the House about the need for something to be done\u2014no question about that. The question arose about what should be done and how should it be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EFor people who have a view that this is a massive problem for the world to deal with and that we should be part of it, but who don\u2019t necessarily agree with the steps that were being proposed by others in the House, it becomes, I think, unacceptable, when people who have participated in a debate with predominantly the same opinion held on all sides of the House, when there is then some insult offered to part of the House because they are not prepared to follow a particular course of action. That, I think, in the context of that debate, was completely unacceptable, and\u2014I\u2019ve got to be quite straight up with you\u2014I personally found it deeply offensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00220633bbfc04a94afda802ee50adefb81c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220633bbfc04a94afda802ee50adefb81c\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker. With respect, I think that this is outrageous. I ask you, with respect, to reconsider this, given that you have kicked me out twice for calling another member a liar, and then I\u2019ve been out of the House for less than 30 minutes and you gave a direction that I could come back into the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWe need some clarity on this. This is incredibly unfair that I can call another member a liar, rightfully get kicked out of the House, and asked to come back into the House within half an hour, with no apology required. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a6fa41f938149c5b2a30bafb13621ce\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: You apologised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a520090cec80465cbbba2666e5e3a076\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I did not apologise. I did not apologise and I would never apologise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233e1a32effef4bfaa5ce183e6b7cde87\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not having\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b2e89afa21c4386ba5040752a9654e8\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank you very much, and I\u2019ll be happy to repeat what I said again, if you like, Mr Bishop. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7b4859b71d647b092a9df6762d30ce1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e40e9c761cb4416c88fe4e35df8f9f2d\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: But I\u2019d ask you to consider this, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210873d7fa5ce4ea4825df5485ae0d335\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s joking about it now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f87c078ccb3480098970f20aaf7192f\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not a laughing matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002299b1565a13744957b27ee6c78401bc2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299b1565a13744957b27ee6c78401bc2e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, well, don\u2019t exacerbate the crime in hindsight, is all I would say, and there is a point where things change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c750f27b54c24576a9f941531f8f02d7\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257dbf3b94ddd483595be688636fb4550\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5cb856ece2949a1be4bf4d9bd88fd29\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yeah, yeah\u2014I\u2019ll wait.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b32818da664b4c36b6d9dd0c1743d70f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, sit down. There\u2019s a point where things change, and I\u2019ve reached the conclusion that we had so many threats and other stuff being directed at members of Parliament that if we don\u2019t change behaviour in here, nothing will change outside. So that is part of my rationale as well, and I made that very clear to the Business Committee yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022051419e76ac04407aa6f5bc9806b8e5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022051419e76ac04407aa6f5bc9806b8e5d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, I hesitate to prolong this, but I think it\u2019s important that when you ruled that the member should leave for the week, she said, \u201CGladly.\u201D She herself has accepted it, and you can\u2019t have the theatrics of doing that and then complain about the ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2137679233f4f6c885692768792a887\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2137679233f4f6c885692768792a887\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK\u2014very good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260fac39156e14bc2ae6af5b870695463\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: New point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b273e24fe9c640be9ae4cfa9d742934c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. Look, we are going to close this down. I\u2019ll hear one more point of order\u2014Debbie Ngarewa-Packer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2fa475a79f04daf97e379cb515a28d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2fa475a79f04daf97e379cb515a28d8\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I understand the need for you to make a ruling on what you find offensive. As the Hon Winston Peters has alluded to, there were many of us that were offended by the \u201Ccunt\u201D word, but what I do want to be able to assure is that \u201Cspineless\u201D is a word and it looks like the ruling is political suppression. We do need to make sure that what the member was doing was speaking out about human rights, and we do not want to be a House that\u2019s making decisions that are suppressing an opinion on the rights of Palestinians. That\u2019s what the debate was about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022529676a9be2a44e28e9e4d1ba3297c55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022529676a9be2a44e28e9e4d1ba3297c55\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, that\u2019s not a point in this discussion. There is no question\u2014no question\u2014in the heads of almost everybody in this House that there is a tragedy of humanity taking place in Gaza at the present time, and, in my opinion, most of the House would agree with that. But then to take it further and say that unless there is agreement over a member\u2019s bill, then members are acting in a spineless fashion, that\u2019s not acceptable. I won\u2019t accept it. The last one, Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228361c83c5e0b4f01aaae8b2fd8caf250\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002257bf727a148b4901b3b9d5c6309308b8\u0022\u003EMatter of Privilege\u2014Update on Speaker\u2019s Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca08da31a0b4477fa6e5338f8483a5ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca08da31a0b4477fa6e5338f8483a5ad\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Musterer\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E This is an entirely new point of order. I would like to seek clarity over a letter that we sent on 3 April in relation to a potential breach of privilege amounting to a contempt. This is in relationship to the Rt Hon Winston Peters saying\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CThe number of frauds committed by the Green Party in the last election knows no bounds.\u201D We haven\u2019t had any resolution or communication in relationship to the outcome of this, and I raise this because I have concerns over the speed with which rulings like this one are made and the harsh consequences that come with it, over, for example, quite serious and, in my view, obvious breaches of the rules in the House that can be left unresolved for months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1549d8d536d49ff8e7b4baf8892218b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1549d8d536d49ff8e7b4baf8892218b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those are two very different matters: one was here in the House; the other was retrospectively referring to a matter in the House. Also, I will take particular responsibility for ensuring that that matter has had the due action and it has been conveyed to you. I think I have actually done something with it. It may not have made its way to you\u2014my apologies for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00226992f03a567247d39ad5ec0634cbf02b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226992f03a567247d39ad5ec0634cbf02b\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022753011a6ab344853b1d9ea5bc819a45f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A new point of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226c8529cb4734feb98eac5b02ffc1da6\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: A new point of order\u2014thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to seek clarification from you regarding the decision you just made. When you are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da883f05d6a94d31aec9c2729c82d9fa\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s not a new point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245c992f100914d88bb3a4439170bc200\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014the point of order is around the interaction between Standing Orders 92, 94, and 90. The suspension of a member is under Standing Order 92\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4bddef6dd104615aeb1ca518dbbcbf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4bddef6dd104615aeb1ca518dbbcbf7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sorry, the member will resume his seat. The matter is dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd63af15bbbd461b9a490b3e192f1de3\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202277c95c54f4e7f9f4df15ee0c77734\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002252d02d96a03548fd87063b6045b3494c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252d02d96a03548fd87063b6045b3494c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We have petitions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002283aab3d395094391b9b6a67f2887c542\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283aab3d395094391b9b6a67f2887c542\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Sher Singh requesting that the House urge the Government to lower English language requirements for transport sector workers seeking permanent residence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f72e1e4f106f4ee1b03fe704cb293306\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f72e1e4f106f4ee1b03fe704cb293306\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. A paper has been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002205322181a5f04536abd6e6d845256b53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205322181a5f04536abd6e6d845256b53\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Annual report of the Local Government Commission for the year ended 30 July 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002252055df867054943964d69555ac96225\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252055df867054943964d69555ac96225\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That paper is published under the authority of the House. Three select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022baefaef137de41a58e8c355e41f5392e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022baefaef137de41a58e8c355e41f5392e\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EReport of the Environment Committee on the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading Scheme\u2014Forestry Conversion) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the Controller and Auditor-General annual plan 2025-26\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Social Services and Community Committee on the petition of The Criminological Society of the University of Otago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002290d0754c30e84b71866e7eab627ac08c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290d0754c30e84b71866e7eab627ac08c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for second reading. The Controller and Auditor-General\u2019s annual report is set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002210206f75f77e4ee6b7d213dfbaac15c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210206f75f77e4ee6b7d213dfbaac15c5\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Carter Trust Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4723e45146b4b79a3c62f58784751a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4723e45146b4b79a3c62f58784751a4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That bill is set down first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022866f25052b794b5ca93292878b0c813e\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c57cb32e6a3546ddaf5f3c1ccbac0fba\u0022\u003EFederal Bureau of Investigation\u2014Opening of Office in New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022328820a5981142139d5c68dc3795669e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022328820a5981142139d5c68dc3795669e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve received a letter from Teanau Tuiono seeking to debate, under Standing Order\u00A0399, the opening of an FBI office in New Zealand. This is a particular case of recent occurrence for which there is ministerial responsibility. However, this is an ongoing matter. There are select committee opportunities and, consequently, House opportunities to scrutinise this matter. I also note, following question time today, there will be a general debate. The application is declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220392b1be264b423eafc6c053b34d99c4\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a9bc3c0d2ea413aa9e1fdf365300744\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u2014Use of \u201CAotearoa\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00227d7f498f59af4ee1b0e310935612609c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d7f498f59af4ee1b0e310935612609c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. Every day we come into this House, we pick up this Order Paper with this name and countless questions referring to a country called \u201CNew Zealand\u201D. I want to know why question No. 1 has got a country imputably called \u201CAotearoa\u201D, and who gave anybody the mandate to change this country\u2019s name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002288e9b781275d4f8ca99c360e8814d393\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288e9b781275d4f8ca99c360e8814d393\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019ve been through this quite a bit. The reality is that M\u0101ori is an official language of New Zealand. If that is a name that M\u0101ori choose to use to identify the nation, then that is an acceptable thing. It has been for a very long time, and I know that there are moves in other directions to change the way in which things are done. The Standing Orders Committee would be the right place to bring up that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f83cddec34354ea988a6494480536ba2\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207107002822b4eac8b19d9ee99962a00\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I want to finish my\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022029397318b81424cb7546dddb7257d28\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the first point of order is with Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00224ef29144d21949b698c61d5be6648e47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ef29144d21949b698c61d5be6648e47\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Musterer\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is exactly the point that I was raising earlier. To me, I just want your clarity over how you wish to conduct constant challenges of rulings that you have explicitly made multiple times that have been explicitly challenged multiple times. I cannot see how this helps the decorum of the House. If any of us constantly challenges a ruling that you were making, we\u2019d be getting kicked out. How can we have confidence that moving forward in relation to your comments around things like cyberbullying, this will be applied justly when you allow someone else to challenge you basically almost daily?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022599fde64436a4d4f8d2d8a431ac49a6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022599fde64436a4d4f8d2d8a431ac49a6f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The Rt Hon Winston Peters, though, is a very experienced member who is very careful about the way he puts\u2014[Interruption] Sorry, is there something wrong, Mr Willis? No, don\u2019t speak\u2014you haven\u2019t been called. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt was an observation. The way in which a matter might be brought up again does depend on the language that\u2019s used, and I\u2019d ask you to look at Hansard to see how that was put together. The second point is that I have ruled on this twice, and, therefore, it should not be brought up again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4ecf58920904deb8e495af2449f19bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4ecf58920904deb8e495af2449f19bf\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. You say that this matter should be referred to the Standing Orders Committee. Well, surely it\u2019s a fair question to ask why, before any change was made, it was not first reported to the Standing Orders Committee to see what other people thought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce1d72253e1f4a258440767b02b58c1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce1d72253e1f4a258440767b02b58c1b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it may well have been. I can\u2019t recall the time when it was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245693d0be95a4518b9bcc28b38b7b38e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, it hasn\u2019t been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9633a98137c4f2d83bdb3c07bd0751c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It may well have been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aa16169836443988b27dbb39695f4f9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Speaker, we protest. This is just so much an abuse of this Parliament that you are going to say that you have decided that this country can change its name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022336c1c4afefe4f098d55397c42c2891f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022336c1c4afefe4f098d55397c42c2891f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I haven\u2019t\u2014that\u2019s completely ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2fdec7aaf724d89981354d49a2ddb92\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cece1a814e90468c8c9e37193bafa502\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014no more points of order on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f185fd15bc1d4a6ba6075a2dcb3a4719\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022411c704748c74a3abed38288920c0492\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af854d033bca443c9cdba6a0d3fdb420\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022569b947150d040509003ec12aa2938bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022569b947150d040509003ec12aa2938bd\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What M\u0101ori education providers has she consulted with, if any, regarding the impact her proposed education changes will have on all M\u0101ori learners across Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c24082a1c2c34fe08e6e1c9e3c7f37c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c24082a1c2c34fe08e6e1c9e3c7f37c1\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E My proposed education changes include the introduction of Rangaranga Reo \u0101-T\u0101, a new structured programme to teach reading, writing, and speaking, including a suite of decodable books. For the first time ever, we\u2019ve printed and made freely available the introduction of Hihira Weteoro, the first ever phonics check in te reo M\u0101ori, new p\u0101ngarau maths resources including professional learning and development teacher guides and practical resources, and the refresh of Te Marautanga o Aotearoa to be a knowledge rich year-by-year curriculum in te reo M\u0101ori. Across my education reform programme, I regularly engage with my M\u0101ori education advisory group and M\u0101ori education leaders regarding kaupapa M\u0101ori. The Ministry of Education engages with a range of experts in Rangaranga Reo \u0101-T\u0101, p\u0101ngarau, aromatawai, and curriculum development\u2014all of this because I have high aspirations for the success of M\u0101ori learners in all parts of our education system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022093c00a95014466f8fd092795518c078\u0022\u003EHana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Te R\u016Bnanga Nui o Ng\u0101 Kura Kaupapa M\u0101ori\u00A0o Aotearoa that replacing NCEA level 1 with a Foundational Award in literacy and numeracy \u201Cnarrows the purpose of learning and risks disengaging students who benefit from a broader kaupapa M\u0101ori programme.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a4421659fc74628ba2e92e4e394f155\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t, and I think the important thing to note is the Education Review Office report, which said that 60 percent of teachers did not see value in NCEA level 1, that 70 percent of employers did not value it, and that half of parents didn\u2019t understand it. Now, if that\u2019s the award we want to give to M\u0101ori learners to set them up for success, then that\u2019s not being aspirational enough. A Foundational Award in literacy and numeracy and a whole year of learning through a deep curriculum to make sure that they go into Year 12 ready for learning for that first important year of national qualifications is going to set them up for success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c87a3d74fbad4d8f9efff73caba8bc87\u0022\u003EHana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke\u003C/span\u003E: Why has she decided to prioritise standardisation over cultural relevance when kura kaupapa providers have warned that this approach is not fit for purpose for kura kaupapa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8e35918f3de4e8bb6dd448cf8ed33a1\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Look, we have already started and are going to continue to work with Te R\u016Bnanga Nui and Ng\u0101 Kura \u0101 Iwi and the kura kaupapa leaders to make sure that they have their say in this process. We\u2019ve already set up meetings, we\u2019ve already had initial conversations, and I would also like to point out that there was a principal from Ng\u0101 Kura \u0101 Iwi and a principal from Te R\u016Bnanga Nui on the professional advisory group that was helping to set this up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c6edeb15525499dbcbcad357ef51581\u0022\u003EHana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f66dde0b57bf4046945347dbd9301f1c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There will be silence while questions are being asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248d4b818131d42c1bf6dbc4dd735259a\u0022\u003EHana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke\u003C/span\u003E: How will her decision to ban nearly all M\u0101ori words from junior teaching resources impact the Crown\u2019s responsibility to actively protect and promote te reo M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0bb9d5f25ff4369a22ab27bb15fc9d7\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I take that responsibility very seriously, which is why we produced the first ever set of Rangaranga Reo \u0101-T\u0101, structured literacy books, in te reo M\u0101ori. No Government has ever done that before. Let me be clear: these are the very first books that are tools to teach children to learn English. The M\u0101ori words in them will remain. In the new books that will round out the series, a dozen or so that still need to be produced will still contain M\u0101ori words, and to say they\u2019re being banned is absolutely wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207637bd5f97747fda9d6204ee85547f8\u0022\u003EHana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister support the establishment of a rigorous, culturally grounded assessment framework consistent with the proven strengths of kura kaupapa M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241132748300b4615a1d52625a64ddd23\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to that question, we have just recently procured a new aromatawai, or assessment tool. Now, that assessment tool next year will be required twice yearly to measure progress, to measure progress from Year 3 all the way up. It will also be provided in te reo M\u0101ori as well, to measure progress of M\u0101ori students\u2014not only in the mainstream but also in those M\u0101ori-medium classrooms\u2014to make sure their learning is on track, to make sure their parents can see their progress, but, more importantly, for the Government and the Minister of Education to know where to put resource when those young people start to fall behind. We know that they are falling behind and if we do nothing, like the previous Government, then we end up with children who don\u2019t get qualifications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221806c16f93c420a9929468d00eb3bcd\u0022\u003EHana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke\u003C/span\u003E: Will she commit to extending the consultation time line, in line with calls from kura kaupapa providers, to ensure that \u0101konga M\u0101ori are not left behind by her education reforms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e506e923b3874b69b7c804439e1b7c76\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: We have been in the washing machine of change at least for the last five years. We have got to make change. I\u2019ve already committed, as has the ministry, to dealing with Ng\u0101 Kura Iwi and Te R\u016Bnanga Nui in a special and different way, where we hold constant meetings and receive their feedback on a different path than the mainstream consultation progress. We will continue to work collaboratively with them, but we are not slowing down our reforms, because our young people deserve a qualification that sets them up for success, and NCEA does not do that. If the member would like a briefing, I\u2019d be happy to offer that to her. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022062bffe306fc4d708c3d01e28d3000f9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 2, when the House is quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226829ebc883f24efe98d4d5e70faf269e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u00229dd92dca24984450a09041a4fa1e4c66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229dd92dca24984450a09041a4fa1e4c66\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What reports has she seen on New Zealand\u2019s fiscal policy and tax settings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00220b130ef0b7d04cd8a74325166b816071\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b130ef0b7d04cd8a74325166b816071\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Acting Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve been reading some more of Treasury\u2019s long-term insights briefing, which highlights the dangers of excessive Government spending. I have seen some commentary that this report is \u201CTreasury spin\u201D, that other countries spent similar amounts responding to COVID, and that Treasury has mischaracterised some of the spending. Let\u2019s be clear: this is a 118-page serious report; it deals with evidence from the IMF and the OECD. Amongst advanced economies, in response to COVID, only the United States spent more as a percentage of GDP. The Treasury did not mischaracterise previous Government spending. Page 49 contains a list of how all the COVID funds were spent, where nearly half of the response was made up of \u201Ca wide range of initiatives with varied objectives\u201D, including tax changes, training schemes, Jobs for Nature, and alleged shovel-ready infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b7e5956f3664413a863555403fabf36\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What plans has she seen on getting the Government\u2019s books back in order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022833bd0e7b27f42bb857976d8c423e929\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, partly as a response to the issues outlined in the 2025 long-term insights briefing, this Government has to provide disciplined economic and fiscal management in order to get the Government\u2019s books back in order\u2014ultimately, less debt, restoring our fiscal buffers, and making sure we can incentivise investment and growth and get red tape out of the economy. Budget 2025 shows our fiscal deficits turn to surplus in 2028-2029.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e96e87e9aac4f9dbbfb5590b0375092\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: Can she rule out a capital gains tax on the family home?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3bf007804d34b9e89fc6565ca5dc46a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, on behalf of the Government, yes I can rule out a capital gains tax on the family home, and it would be good if all members of Parliament could provide that assurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d209c53078e142eebf4cc8bba0960e0a\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has she seen on the potential revenue generated from a capital gains tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfcf720633854c97a93c53595aebece7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have seen reports from some that a capital gains tax could bring in $200 billion in just six years\u2014$33 billion per year. To quote Brad Olsen from Infometrics, this is \u201CAbsolutely daft\u201D. I\u2019ve also seen a report from the Tax Working Group\u20142019\u2014which estimated that a capital gains tax would realise just $400 million in its first year. But the salient point is this: a capital gains tax is a tax on savings and investment, and a capital-shallow\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ae81e40c4774c35aee2fadc65b662ab\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Why are you still talking when you just said you ruled it out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0cbb50313bf4f1d874ad1fc1cf3f8af\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m talking about it because you\u2019re about to adopt it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fe73bc6907b46b388732dd39dce234e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014no, you\u2019re not to reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db73c4b33fa94cdf8659be194e53155c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014as Opposition policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e87c77953cf647299a623f33f72570a5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Do not reply across the House; stick to your answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221503e0d6af2d47d48acff90cc0f5131c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m talking about it, Mr Speaker, because the Opposition is about to adopt it as Opposition policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239badace33c4455386378a38a12d47dc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014that\u2019s it. No, the member will resume his seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022968799007939429d9f534f4269f889f9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1ead567365d4339b0fd3555037d9432\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1ead567365d4339b0fd3555037d9432\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00226816e3fc79c6432a8e838a1c011bb48c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226816e3fc79c6432a8e838a1c011bb48c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac1c489f3c7c499d9e517be723342b3e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he stand by his Government\u2019s decision to cut State house builds by 86 percent, given construction leaders have stated that house construction is an anchor for the sector, and is that why 755 construction firms have collapsed in just one year under his leadership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022184cfde0c7ce49e585c082fd6e9ac35b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the reason that the construction industry is doing it incredibly tough isn\u2019t because of K\u0101inga Ora; it\u2019s because interest rates skyrocketed under the previous administration, as my colleague just alluded to. The previous Government spent $66 billion, created high inflation, and, as a result, created high interest rates. The construction industry is required to go out and actually borrow money at higher interest rates. That makes it difficult to do projects, and that\u2019s the reason the construction industry has been doing it tough. But, of course, we are building things and getting things done in this Government, and that will help construction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022090d8f4ea163411ba59226353624823e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that a lack of Government work has contributed to a 48\u00A0percent rise in construction firm liquidations and to 18,000 fewer jobs in construction today than when he became Prime Minister? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c9035dac8214c03858d91750c8179a5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m actually proud that we\u2019ve got an infrastructure pipeline now of $207 billion. I think we have $125 billion of projects under construction. We have announced another $6 billion of infrastructure projects to be built or commenced before Christmas. I\u2019d just say the track record on this side of the House is we don\u2019t have phantom projects like three waters at $1.2 billion, we don\u2019t have $300 million Auckland light rail projects, and we don\u2019t have harbour crossings that never come to fruition. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdf268b4261e44feb02b2a37ca747090\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c151e657d31413981b221bad9628547\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait till the House and his own members calm themselves down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246816d46363144068fcf853e034f4fae\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will the $6 billion of projects that he claims are going to be starting before Christmas result in Government spending on infrastructure in 2026 being more or less than it was in 2023? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238f83828ba664347a824593ad8a6960f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the way I can answer the member is by saying our pipeline has continued to strengthen through the course of this Government. We now have $207\u00A0billion worth of infrastructure. I would highlight to the member that a number of those projects that we are getting going on before Christmas were actually either cancelled by the previous administration\u2014I think about the projects that are happening at Auckland Middlemore Hospital: recladding projects announced in 2018. This is a Government that\u2019s going to get on and do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bd30ca7c8cc46c98d73f472253915c0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a relatively simple question as to whether in 2026 the Government\u2019s going to be spending more or less than it did in 2023. The Prime Minister didn\u2019t address that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba645e9896294ff2941607d816b9b7b7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister might like to add to his answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bd050b1822f40a49c71cddde3111c45\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said to the member, the pipeline of infrastructure projects has been increasing under this Government. It\u2019s at $207 billion. We\u2019ve got $125 billion under construction now, and you heard us announce that we want to get $6 billion worth of infrastructure projects up and running before Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fd31d1167784c0d8ea446344e3f6a05\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government\u2019s goal to spend more money as an end in itself or to build the infrastructure New Zealanders need more efficiently by replicating, reducing costs where necessary, and getting the job done?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e390c663421410aa59dc64c7a656580\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think that member raises a very good point, because the thing I would like to highlight to the House is that the Minister of Education has done an exceptionally good job. When we came to Government, only 20 percent of classrooms were standardised. They were running at a $1.2 million cost per classroom. Today, this year, it\u2019s running at closer to 70 percent standardised and about $620,000. Of course, that means we\u2019ve had a 30 percent increase in classrooms going out into the education sector, with the same amount of money essentially being spent. This is a Government that understands management. It understands how to run an economy. It understands how to get things done. We don\u2019t just crash an economy, don\u2019t deliver, and then have no plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aecbf9fda0014068b90346f5ced7a43b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: So will the Government be spending more on infrastructure in 2026 or less than it did in 2023?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a38721c2ead6450aad0b14bd16d988d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my earlier answer, I can encourage the member that we have strengthened our infrastructure pipeline to now sit at $207 billion. We have $125 billion under construction, $6 billion before Christmas. I\u2019d just say to that member, I\u2019d really love his support in supporting the construction industry, because I think it would be very important for him to reverse his decision on fast track so that we can actually get more projects up and running and away like the $200 million at the Auckland wharf. That\u2019s going to create more jobs and more opportunities for New Zealanders. So why don\u2019t you come on board and support us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a3cbebe6cfe4d02aa4e1e98d4deb5cd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. My question wasn\u2019t about the long-term infrastructure pipeline. It wasn\u2019t about the fast track. It was about whether or not this Government, based on the plans that it has announced, is going to be spending more or less in 2026 than it did in 2023. I\u2019ve had two goes at asking the Prime Minister that question, and he hasn\u2019t answered on either occasion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d0d80fbeb1442f9a411cb39c00e4f6d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019re asking for a yes or no answer, which is not, in my opinion\u2014and it\u2019s my opinion that really guides how we go from here for a yes or no question. But having asked a question that you\u2019ve asked twice, you\u2019ve reached your own conclusion. Do you have another supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d2d9786b1d544438af162d992dfd9f0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will he admit that putting existing transport projects on hold straight after the election has had a chilling effect on the sector, increasing uncertainty and stopping work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222629e8d1f9b64efe9685f6ca475f0b6b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. What I would say is that where the previous Government cancelled \u014Ctaki to Levin in 2018, reannounced it in 2020, and then did nothing, we\u2019re actually building it. Where you cancelled Melling in 2018 and reannounced it in 2020, we\u2019re now getting it going. When it was announced by the previous Government in 2018 that recladding Middlemore Hospital was very important, they did nothing for six years; we\u2019re doing it. When you spend $1.2\u00A0billion looking at three waters and don\u2019t do anything, that\u2019s not good enough. We\u2019re getting things built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245c04a771bb24507980f1ebfec65eb35\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Is the former chief executive of construction firm Naylor Love wrong when he says that further stimulus is needed from the Government \u201Cotherwise, we\u2019re going to see \u2026 continuing downturn in [the] construction industry, more people losing jobs, and more misery.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3a6075ab09a4e759266d7e34d6a9206\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d just say to the member, again, that in my conversations with people in the construction sector, they\u2019re very conscious that poor economic management from the previous administration created high interest rates, and interest rates are critical for developments to happen. This is a Government that has got $6 billion worth of infrastructure happening and commencing before Christmas. That\u2019s a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216d464928ade4a0c89a2bc97211faa2e\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that cancelling projects due to start in the 2030s may have resulted in a few people working on business cases losing their jobs but has not meant anyone who actually works with a spade and builds things will be out of work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b02cb9f04d604a8681fecf3a3caf8289\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct. But I\u2019d also say to the member that the thing that will help the construction industry tremendously will be lower interest rates, and that\u2019s what this Government has delivered. We have not delivered 12 interest rate increases, as the previous administration had done. We have delivered interest rate cuts, and that will encourage our construction industry to be able to get going and to borrow money to get projects built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022041179bc75dd4894b0ac79491587cfe2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: If he thinks that his FamilyBoost policy is such a \u201Csimple process\u201D, as he said yesterday, why can\u2019t he point towards a single family that\u2019s received the $250 a fortnight that he promised them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9d9dd161f084805ad9ff6ade4ab9675\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I just want to thank the member for his question, because every time he draws attention to FamilyBoost, we appreciate it, because we want 22,000 more families to actually sign up for FamilyBoost. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve expanded the thresholds; that\u2019s why we\u2019ve expanded the contributions that are being made, and I encourage everyone to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9bffdc6bece4150b01ba715e0b11ba3\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e701c0dba236499a912291ede75bd7fd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When are we ready? The Hon Marama Davidson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221904e23bf77a4fbab6e4f4f99af60e3c\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Why should New Zealanders have faith in his \u201Cprocess\u201D to decide on Palestinian statehood if he isn\u2019t being briefed on the thousands of Palestinian hostages being held by Israel or the multiple offers to return Israeli hostages for a lasting ceasefire?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b146c75d6a94f1db15f1954d54d3b88\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, sorry, in answer to the second leg of the question, I\u2019m not aware of that. We have been calling for Hamas to release hostages immediately. What happened on 7 October was abhorrent\u20141,200 innocent people killed and hostages still being held in very cruel conditions is unacceptable. We have consistently called for the release of those hostages. We\u2019ve consistently called for humanitarian assistance\u2014unfettered\u2014to go from Israel into Gaza, and we consistently call for a ceasefire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f90d469b343948c49c60ef15687160e3\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Then has the Prime Minister even asked any questions of his officials about the thousands of Palestinian hostages held by Israel or the multiple offers to release Israeli hostages since he revealed yesterday, and today, that he hasn\u2019t been briefed on those issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229abcf23ef87548cfb144b2885875244b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been briefed on the situation in Israel and Gaza regularly and continue to be. It is an absolute human catastrophe, what we are seeing\u2014everybody acknowledges that. We have actually foreshadowed to people over the course of this week that we are in the process of weighing up our position, and we will announce our Cabinet position on that in September.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022452030e2e3b545719b208f88a7d318c7\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Is New Zealand\u2019s independent foreign policy on Gaza more aligned with the foreign policy agenda of the Trump administration or that of Australia, the UK, France, and Canada?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222179f3b5c6d4414887c147ff130e488b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is a Government that has its own independent foreign policy. We work with like-minded countries, as we have done on this particular conflict over its duration, and will continue to do so. As you will have noticed, with respect to the topic of Palestinian recognition, countries have worked their way through their own positions, as you\u2019ve seen recently with France, Britain, and, also, recently, Australia. Some of our partners have made that decision; others have not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022007261990ff846edb849a296531662a9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There were members in the Government backbenches who were speaking during a question being asked\u2014it\u2019s a very risky thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fd84ea17bf34cafbde285b83996b10d\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that Benjamin Netanyahu has \u201Clost the plot\u201D, and, if so, when will he sanction Israel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a9c502cf0344943903fd952fc9ed911\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, again, those were comments that I made about my personal observations of Israel attacking Gaza City overnight, which was utterly, utterly unacceptable. It\u2019s what the global community has called for for a long time\u2014New Zealand has called for for a long time, with its partners\u2014to say, \u201CIsrael, you need to be listening to the global community\u201D, and that has not been happening. So I stand by those statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4 to Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EQuestion not asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022208670d7f8ea46aaa176d32bf7c18299\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Immigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u002213e067792a0f49378a30602b0b7c0fb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213e067792a0f49378a30602b0b7c0fb3\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: What recent announcements has she made about supporting businesses to access seasonal workers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f26e3f9978654c70994c3d46daf23926\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f26e3f9978654c70994c3d46daf23926\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I recently announced that the Government is introducing two new seasonal visa pathways to help businesses access the surge support they need during peak times. The Peak Seasonal Visa is up to a seven-month visa for short-term seasonal roles such as wool handling and meat processing. The Global Workforce Seasonal Visa is a multiple-entry, three-year visa for highly skilled workers in roles such as winemaking, snow instruction, and sheep scanning. The success of our seasonal industries is crucial for growing the economy, which is why we are backing industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f0ec658c04340d29a98148d76743bcd\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: How will these visas help to grow the economy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259c67633b89e410ebe09e8f4a8a5ddf5\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, businesses with seasonal peaks need certainty they\u2019ll be able to access the workers they need during critical times to get products to export and meet the demand for roles such as snow instructors and adventure tourism guides. While employing New Zealanders is always our top priority, these visas will help our industries fill roles that are currently difficult to staff locally, as well as make it easier for employers to retain highly skilled, specialist workers across multiple seasons. For the Peak Seasonal Visa, businesses will still have to advertise their jobs locally and engage with Ministry of Social Development to ensure New Zealand workers have first opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228876ebbabecc4f8885f7cfedb9925d27\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has she received from the primary industry on this announcement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248dbfea8ff1246b598913127317062b5\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Federated Farmers have welcomed the changes, saying that these visas will make a huge difference to the agricultural sector. Immigration spokesperson Karl Dean said, \u201CIt\u2019s awesome, because it\u2019s the training and getting people used to your processes, your health and safety, the farms you deal with, is what does cost a business.\u201D, and Meat Industry Association chief executive Sirma Karapeeva said, \u201CImproving the ability to employ migrant workers on a seasonal visa means meat processors can ensure shifts run at maximum capacity on a regular basis. This results in more sustainable employment and income for New Zealanders employed by the sector.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a5a26387cdb4be3ab00de9dabaed090\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has she received from the tourism industry on this announcement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e488e61be3ba4cb483f27a52d25c8cc8\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Lake W\u0101naka Tourism and Destination Queenstown chief executive Mat Woods said that the new visa is great news for W\u0101naka and Queenstown tourism operators. It will help create more consistency and less disruption across the tourism sector, ensuring visitors can enjoy world-class experiences across all four seasons. Cardrona and Treble Cone chief mountain officer Laura Hedley said that the visa will provide greater confidence for the Aotearoa ski industry and many of its key staff. This new visa pathway gives both them and us more certainty, and we welcome the change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7e0d1e3b6924160a838642f5681c8bd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that the reason why the seasonal workers scheme has lasted was because it was a brilliant piece of economic logic started in 2007?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022845316b057464e288cdff10a94723a5d\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with Mr Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3579b2d1a804f9b9b80a83cf3ea66e5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was an advertorial for New Zealand First. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ddbfcca294884eea900aefb9089900a0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Energy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00227bc80b0ae3d945f1a94c43d24966c89b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bc80b0ae3d945f1a94c43d24966c89b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Energy: Does he agree with the chief executive officer of Consumer NZ and the managing director of Simplicity, in the Protecting industry, jobs and household budgets as the gas runs out report, that accelerating heat pump adoption will reduce reliance on gas, protect jobs, improve public health, and lower energy costs for New Zealand families and businesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b23045f93e0147868bf6b553f780b0d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b23045f93e0147868bf6b553f780b0d4\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister for Energy):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I agree that accelerating the uptake of efficient heating is vital for Kiwi families. That\u2019s why I was pleased to announce the expansion of the Warmer Kiwi Homes programme last week. This will make an additional 300,000 more households eligible for support, including for heat pump installations. That\u2019s an additional 300,000 households who could potentially save up to $340 a year. This expansion, along with the Government\u2019s other work, will help more New Zealanders enjoy warmer, healthier homes and lower energy costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a23004d6f52e4a1495e44458a8552f06\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Will he, then, reinstate the over $100\u00A0million cut from the Warmer Kiwi Homes programme in Budget 2024 to convert households to heat pumps for room and hot water heating, given the report shows these measures could save households up to $1.5\u00A0billion annually in energy bills?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022054563aaca48427cb81127ebaab6ba85\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Budget 2025 refocused the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority (EECA) budget to deliver value for money and align this with Government priorities of secure, affordable energy. We\u2019ve brought it back to core priorities like insulation, efficient heating, and technology that reduces bills and strengthens energy security, and we\u2019re getting better results for less money. The reality is that this programme has been in place since 2009, and the Warmer Kiwi Homes programme has already had good progress with over half a million installations and heating retrofits across this country. We are now expanding the reach of this programme to provide more opportunities to more middle-income households so that they can benefit too. The Government is still committed to accessing hard-to-reach households. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c20f592d211744299deae94824f2f70d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the advice, given with decisions in Budget 2024, that the changes he has made to the Warmer Kiwi Homes programme will result in less homes being retrofitted and/or households needing to contribute more to access support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a580cf9c264a4663a67b86506122e6f8\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is focused on tackling the cost of living and keeping electricity prices under control. The first thing that we did as a Government is undo those reckless policies from the last Government that pushed up prices and scared off investment. This sector is now delivering market-led solutions, including demand response deals and long-term supply agreements. We strongly support this approach because it delivers results and lowers prices for Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0d38095164b44d8b2a3117418f4dae3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked the Minister a very straight question about whether he\u2019d seen a specific set of advice, accompanying Budget 2024 decision-making, that the choices the Government was making would result in fewer homes having access to insulation. The Minister did not address that in his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd2b8027efec46fe88587587b08f02cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He surely covered it in earlier answers, but the Minister might want to say something further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc189bd1aa534e56a324141841d81c23\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member wants to know why New Zealand / Kiwi households are paying more for electricity and why New Zealand businesses are running out of gas, she doesn\u2019t need an oral question; she needs a mirror.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3ac5af1048d497f8cc7023e8f109b5a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. No, no. The Minister will stand and withdraw that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225124d2032544754bcd3d8f97c9e2973\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afa770e48d5e496598a98b2c98d8e76a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m still none the wiser whether or not that Minister has seen that piece of advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a28db379017f4f28a8bcdd5e5e59a212\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know, but you can\u2019t appeal to me for that, surely, Doctor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6a583ebd8c24e2e9e580d1f623b677e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am appealing to you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beb85403185f4d7389f3a2e99360ff4a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, look, the Minister has answered your question twice. If you were talking about wanting him to respond to a Budget that\u2019s over 12 months old, where it\u2019s superseded by another Budget and then, as he has told the House this afternoon, an announcement made just a couple of days ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d78f83e2bcf410e9557bc233f3d380f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: How much new money since 2023 has gone into the Warmer Kiwi Homes programme, or is he just spreading an already reduced amount of money, allocated by Labour in 2023, even thinner?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022301a523c5ab1412e9c94cbc5b72d5a11\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: I have already answered this question. As I have said, we have refocused EECA\u2019s priorities to deliver more value for money. We are ensuring that that programme delivers outcomes, and, as a result of those decisions, we have expanded the reach of that programme to more than 300,000 additional Kiwi households. This programme has been under way since 2009\u2014half a million installations. We have predominantly dealt with the very difficult homes, and we are now expanding that to more middle-income households in this country, and that is a positive step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022457ca8a794664ce4b0ea239deb789700\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Will he reinstate the $40 million cut from the commercial buildings initiative in the 2023 mini-Budget to partner with industry to replace fossil fuel boilers used for space and water heating with more energy-efficient technologies such as hot water heat pumps, given that the report shows policies such as this can lead to more security in our energy supply and prevent further job losses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266425d067db24c47ac722070ad067a22\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that patsy, and I will remind the member of the great policy that this Government announced at the Budget: Investment Boost. Investment Boost allows a 20 percent upfront reduction in year one on heat pumps for commercial buildings. This Government is doing everything it can to increase the uptake of efficient options for businesses and households, and that is a great example of a policy that this Government has done. It\u2019s also a recommendation in the report that the member asked in her oral question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ccf348aaa184100bab62d6014755765\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it the case that cuts in the energy portfolio from his Government are making things worse, costing jobs, and leaving New Zealand without a plan as the gas runs out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260cdc74b46614e098e7c3d8f375eca7f\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: I want to be very upfront with New Zealanders in regards to the challenges they face with energy. Energy prices in this country are higher than where they need to be. Gas is running out faster than what we expected. The result of those outcomes is because of decisions made by prior Governments, but this Government is not standing by and doing nothing. We are taking leadership. We have announced initiatives, including the $200 million investment in order to increase oil and gas, which is critical to burn electricity, and we\u2019re delivering a variety of other mechanisms. The member needs to understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c53c1843c4894feea6cc3ca52139132c\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the case\u2014on the matter of industry, jobs, and household budgets, as the gas runs out\u2014this is a situation worsened by the Labour Party imposing the oil and gas ban?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022093672b558b547648d7d36cdfd3de525\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, we need to be upfront with New Zealanders\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e0e8a843a0948768e06bf066e467634\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. It\u2019s difficult to understand how\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223b2dd2fe92c4e7ab59f29ccb4baaef1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, there are a number of conversations going on that need to stop while a point of order is being taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6dca50a75c047f8a90af98e0271d22c\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s difficult to understand, given your very clear direction to this House that questions between Government parties should not be used to make commentary on policies of other parties and previous Governments. Clearly, when a question includes both the name of a political party and a policy, it is intended to breach that ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3760b175c9749c4b6fdf83e28d736db\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I didn\u2019t take it that way. As the member will know, the Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 rulings do allow Ministers to refer to circumstances that they are dealing with that may have resulted from the actions of a previous Government. That\u2019s been the case for a very long time, but I would advise the Minister to reply briefly and succinctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab6353c97f7547f496a1ec57924efa71\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014thank you, Mr Speaker\u2014I would remind you that the former energy Minister invoked the name of the Labour Party and invited a Government Minister to respond to decisions made by so-said Labour Party. What\u2019s good for the goose is equally for the gander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cda03514f794a0c91e16524bc352f51\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it\u2019s a bit hard to work out who\u2019s who.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4f94a1c21a74f4a99e330266e04eaef\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. The oil and gas ban sent a chilling effect to the market. It signalled real sovereign risk for the first time in decades. That risk has been priced in\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022511e5bbf6bc948cc8b1d0112dbec467b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, just calm it down. All the heckling across the House won\u2019t change the answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6c42ffbe50742bd89a1b56e1d47d2ea\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. How can you expect there to be order in this House when you\u2019ve allowed this question to go forward and, immediately, the Minister is providing his opinion and commentary on what he believes has happened, none of which is backed up by fact. And the exact thing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5c428fb993b44f2983fe141385ac4b2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: With all due respect, he spoke about sovereign risk, which is regularly reported to energy Ministers. Further, it was the questioner asking the question who asked him to comment on former Labour policy. It\u2019s a highly political question; you\u2019re going to get these sorts of responses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6eb56112f2c42159cc03e935ec07ae8\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Further to the point of order, this is a question from a Government party, and you will not find any of the commentary used by the Minister in any of the reports mentioned by the Hon Dr Megan Woods. That is an expression of this Minister\u2019s opinion and is the exact kind of thing I was trying to prevent with my first point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5d5b14d472a46958e8eb1257f6a3c0b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All answers, ultimately, are going to be expressions of opinion by a Minister. That\u2019s why they\u2019re Ministers. Try again, and try to keep it very factual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e07d4d2a64bb4d9d872518f43f2c13a7\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The oil and gas ban sent a chilling effect to the market. It signalled real sovereign risk\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bcd82b032be42aebddc43f7372e3b8e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: What did this report say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9dc4ec508994683bfde1195fcd8dfe0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Start again. Leave the words \u201Cchilling effect\u201D out. It won\u2019t interfere with your answer, but just give your answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f22dcc43dea48f3a1abaf5f6c510990\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: It signalled real sovereign risk for the first time in decades. That risk has been priced in by the market and passed on to New Zealand consumers. The reversal of the ban gives industry the certainty to invest in the gas we need for dry years and industrial heat while new generation comes on line. This Government supports the transition to renewables, but we will not risk energy shortages and skyrocketing prices through reckless virtue-signalling policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022851c89aee7fb4234b0dcccbb7bafb4fb\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022 data-id=\u0022214c67cc3b2d4aa182ee6b659c4030b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022214c67cc3b2d4aa182ee6b659c4030b2\u0022\u003ELAURA McCLURE (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: What recent announcements has she made about improving the experiences of Oranga Tamariki caregivers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002205ff2abb5db74c74b772546444b8058f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205ff2abb5db74c74b772546444b8058f\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I want to ensure all caregivers feel supported and valued so that they can provide the best possible care for the children and young people they\u2019ve opened their homes to. Since becoming Minister, I\u2019ve asked Oranga Tamariki to progress work on a caregiver work programme focused on upholding rights and responsibilities of caregivers. We have listened to the caregivers about what makes the biggest difference for them, through both annual satisfaction surveys and more targeted consultation with caregivers. This has led to a range of caregiver support changes in the way we strengthen and simplify practices and policies\u2014all designed to improve the experience of caregivers. In Budget 2025, we committed $16\u00A0million over four years to make care environments safer and to better support and train caregivers in the wider workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278c54f7da77a40178afc24cdcc0d71b9\u0022\u003ELaura McClure\u003C/span\u003E: What other changes have been made to better support caregivers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217d3958c1ca14e759779c692a752d949\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: This year, we have established a caregiver panel which will collect ongoing feedback directly from caregivers, ensuring their voices and concerns are listened to and heard. This will enable continuous improvement as Oranga Tamariki makes sure they are offering practical support to caregivers to address any challenges that they might be facing. We have also completed a review of the higher foster care allowance, which provides additional financial support in certain circumstances. This has resulted in an updated policy and guidance that supports a caregiver\u2019s application and approval process so that we can ensure caregivers are receiving the support they are entitled to. Practice guidance for social workers has also been clarified to make sure the views of caregivers are sought when it comes to key decisions involving the children they care for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218489f37452342599e155030a330152f\u0022\u003ELaura McClure\u003C/span\u003E: What training is available for caregivers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf73b12e0d124bd58fb23aa94c177592\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Oranga Tamariki offers a range of training support to caregivers, either directly or through community providers. The resources provided to people who are interested in becoming caregivers have also recently been updated. This helps people who are considering becoming a caregiver to understand what is involved, how the application and the approval process works, and the supports that will be available to them. For far too long, the system has been too difficult to navigate. In May 2025, Caring Families Aotearoa launched two new online learning sessions for caregivers. These self-directed learning courses focus on national care standards and dealing with adverse childhood experiences. I am advised that 277 individuals have completed the modules since it was launched. We have also increased the training for social workers so that they can make sure that they are practising in a way that makes the caregiver experience the best it can possibly be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228909ae8766954ee48a08ed73eec4521e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, good. A succinct question and a succinct answer would be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257a7fcbbaa5c41dcbe42184b12576749\u0022\u003ELaura McClure\u003C/span\u003E: What is her message to people thinking of becoming caregivers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223fbaa9f5a834372995dc77db99e2ebb\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I have huge respect for anyone who opens their home and their hearts to look after children and young people. I\u2019m committed to ensuring that caregivers have the supports they need. If you are thinking of becoming a caregiver, or have been one in the past, I would encourage you to get in touch with Oranga Tamariki. There are opportunities out there right now for short-term or longer-term care and even respite care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d70660a3931474ea8a51b65bb5e5385\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that the caregivers that they\u2019re seeking for M\u0101ori children are adequate enough to understand and be able to engage with M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau in a M\u0101ori way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ba2b93d5df845ca949801513b091bfe\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: We don\u2019t directly recruit caregivers specifically for M\u0101ori children; we recruit caregivers that are willing to open up their home and give a loving environment to children who need care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bb226a662e041d99102588c255be512\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Does she, therefore, not recognise that M\u0101oriness and cultural values are critical to M\u0101ori wellbeing and mokopuna M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225330722e9d78421a98f665986dd3f08b\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: What I do agree to is that young people that come to the attention of Oranga Tamariki or into the care of Oranga Tamariki need a loving, supportive environment where they can thrive to be the best they can be, no matter who they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222af3c2908b6647ddbe01098e2fd882c9\u0022\u003EMariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c24897b7b8446bba35ce1a37945e0b6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s used up its allocation for today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b3390f5fd7345fb99933a9ffd4bdeb3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00227636be1846b84da6ae6a5463b4595f81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227636be1846b84da6ae6a5463b4595f81\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she stand by her statement about unemployment that \u201CI\u2019m really confident our approach is working\u201D; if so, why is unemployment worse than this time last year, with 16,000 more people unemployed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00223a32c57dd7164aa5bd093fe259f93d50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a32c57dd7164aa5bd093fe259f93d50\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Yes. Unemployment has been rising since 2021. We know unemployment is always one of the last things to come right after a recession, and, unfortunately, we have inherited from the previous Government a low-growth economy where unemployment was always forecast to increase to above 5 percent. That is why our Government is relentlessly focused on economic growth and getting people into work. When businesses have the confidence to invest and grow, it\u2019s good for jobs, it\u2019s good for growth, and it\u2019s good for the incomes of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215f4d1c778984336b1ce061762309331\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yep. Can I just, before the question is asked\u2014short answers are good ones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278e6cb0ae04a4d40921518f4ba48d095\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she the only one that thinks her policies are working, when 60\u00A0percent\u201460 percent\u2014of people think the Government is failing and not doing enough to stimulate job growth\u201460 percent; Television NZ news?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ffd6464f2cc4334b2624a1d74d6e2fd\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d like to give the member asking the question some hope, because hope is on its way. I want to inform the member that on the back of economic growth in agriculture, horticulture, and tourism, the South Island unemployment rate is 4.3\u00A0percent\u2014Southland at 4.1, Otago at 3\u00A0percent, Tasman at 3.9\u00A0percent, and Canterbury at 5\u00A0percent. What that shows is that economic growth leads to employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209850479f78e4503a8ceb58f3943946e\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister confident her policies are working for people living in Auckland, who have the worst regional unemployment statistics at 6.1\u00A0percent\u2014higher than the national average of 5.1\u00A0percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ec7309d860d43f7943a6d22878924a4\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly the message that we have been giving: that unemployment is incredibly tough on the individuals that are in that position. It is always the last thing to come right after a recession. That is why this Government is so focused on ensuring inflation is kept down, interest rates are kept down, and businesses are able to have the confidence to grow and employ people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c22ab0102084305b3530729bafbd5c2\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Is she\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228958215c49041b486417ccec5007836\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on a minute. Hang on. OK, now we\u2019re quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e42f54650a447c088d87e155bdf2c0c\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Is her approach working for the construction industry, which is missing both 18,000 workers and a concrete plan from this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270e441885ce04cfc8bc641bf092749f9\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the message is quite clear: that economic growth is what will provide jobs. I want to just give a bit of an example that, again, will give some hope to the member. Recently, a roofing firm in Southland was growing their numbers of staff. They employed a lovely young M\u0101ori guy, 22, from Auckland, who was a qualified roofer with a young family to shift down where there is work. There is growth in parts of our economy, and from that growth is employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ca2f7a4e93a4d33982dce1a72cb862d\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: How can anyone have confidence in her policies when the Minister herself said in February 2024 that her priority is supporting job seekers into work when jobseeker numbers are skyrocketing, homelessness is out of control, and unemployment continues to grow?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfa253d185d2456c8e7a978ee55a6df8\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: I think they can be very confident that this Government is absolutely focused on keeping inflation low, keeping interest rates low, and ensuring that businesses have the confidence to invest. That is why we are seeing growth in industries like agriculture, horticulture, and tourism, which are bringing on more jobs. That is the focus we need to continue to ensure that growth continues to occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a574863416434eaebbce8b2b621135ac\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: When will the Minister finally admit that the Luxon-led Government has done nothing\u2014nothing\u2014to improve the material wellbeing of families struggling to make ends meet, and that they are, in fact, making things worse, not better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b682b48df2be455fbf513dbc712cbd5d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d have to ask whether there was a question in that or was it just a statement? The Minister may respond\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b46ea6b2ebee41df8fa1ab0083ae6e64\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I thought it was a question, but I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256997c8796634a929d9b858b1c9db95c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. That\u2019s all right. The Minister may respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf309b88e5f4b0cb24e3ae7e7404df0\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want me to repeat it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feebeab94d7f454ba4e221f713d12659\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Definitely not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220223afebf4ad4f9dbe15d6864db5fb50\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: We absolutely acknowledge that rising unemployment is tough on those that are impacted by it. However, the reality of the situation is that we have inherited a horrible human aftershock of poor economic management, so getting interest rates and inflation under control, and giving confidence to businesses\u2014because it is businesses that employ people and industries that employ people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227891bc4c448a4a0dab1cfef1b75c7d84\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9e030ebe9b64a8fbb587ff14d82f37b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9e030ebe9b64a8fbb587ff14d82f37b\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022b97deb7ee32748fdb14092a0ee7285df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b97deb7ee32748fdb14092a0ee7285df\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bacf29c9f87462daa4d124841ac7028\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: How many jobs were lost as a direct result of his Government\u2019s decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e66ba432f7d4da3a376f15328109176\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as the member will be aware, we have seen an increase in people on the jobseeker benefit. That\u2019s a function of a previous Government that increased spending by 84 percent, tripled the debt, drove up inflation and interest rates, and put the economy in recession. Sadly, when you\u2019re in a recession, with less demand for products and higher costs because of inflation and interest rates, people, sadly, lose their jobs. That is a very challenging situation for individuals, and it\u2019s something this Government\u2019s working incredibly hard at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9bd0737cd3c48999d3d81c9b14e3a22\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that 46 percent of workers, such as teachers, nurses, and firefighters, received a pay rise lower than inflation, and, if so, was that his Government\u2019s choice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc2d4464efab4d2288788b171471e91f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m very, very proud of the fact that under this Government, we have had wages growing faster than inflation, unlike the previous Government, which had 12 or 13 quarters where inflation grew faster than wages. Ultimately, wages need to go ahead of inflation so that people can get ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bf2c9c0ac1847c3a572d9d6cb1856a2\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: When he said yesterday, \u201CWe are the parties of workers,\u201D did he refer to the women affected by the changes to pay equity claims?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c92745e20b340ab90659af559fb0608\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there is continued pay equity, as we\u2019ve talked about many times in this House. This Government continues to support it. We\u2019ve put money aside to support future claims, and any individual or any employee is free to make a claim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f38498ffe2e413d8464b1d0e07ab4d9\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he support building an additional 35,000 State homes to tackle growing homelessness and create thousands of jobs, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022516119c29e034ebc9d1ec28a8f8108cc\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m very proud that K\u0101inga Ora has actually built 7,000 new homes under this Government. That is more than the 5,700 under the last term of the previous Government. Importantly, there will be about 2,000 extra homes each and every year being built. Most importantly, there\u2019s been probably close to 6,000 people taken off the State house social housing wait-list. There\u2019s been 2,100 kids put into warm, dry homes. You see rents falling, under $5 a week versus $180 a week. As that member knows, as the former Minister of homelessness\u2014where homelessness went up 37 percent under her watch while the Government spent a billion dollars on emergency housing\u2014those are difficult challenges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b34ba895b0b4b59be3ddab84d677598\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Conservation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00225e5794e44cd54d2b927c25e31cc2770e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e5794e44cd54d2b927c25e31cc2770e\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: What recent announcements has he made about the Conservation Act 1987?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2c956efcd184cb7ba25f6ef27ff077b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2c956efcd184cb7ba25f6ef27ff077b\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E On 2 August 2025, the Prime Minister and I announced changes to unlock growth on conservation lands. We\u2019re going to fix the Conservation Act to make it easier to conduct business and other activities on conservation lands, supporting activities like tourism, agriculture, and\u2014one of my personal favourites\u2014infrastructure, where that makes sense. In addition, we are giving the Department of Conservation more support by introducing the ability for the department to charge foreign visitors a fee to access high-volume sites. By charging foreign visitors to visit popular sites they currently enjoy for free, we can invest more in one of the key reasons they come to this country: our iconic nature, biodiversity, and world-class visitor, or manuhiri, experiences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022008fa7794e234b4cbf3313e4c4413c68\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: How will simplifying the Conservation Act lead to greater economic growth in our regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2aa5dab8f3443c28af781585e35ecbf\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Jobs\u2014jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f83381413844d1fbb666970dc691b1a\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly\u2014jobs. Thousands of businesses operate on conservation land, bringing in millions of dollars a year for local and regional economies, and, indeed, jobs. Changes announced will enable faster processing of permits and other concessions for businesses and community organisations, amongst others. They also simplify the rules for doing business and undertaking other activities on conservation land, giving people greater certainty to invest and recreate. We can balance thriving natural environments with responsible development without unreasonably compromising conservation values.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e07b162d4746456588733de8fafd3298\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: How will charging international tourists lead to greater protection of our biodiversity and natural environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022336c8a305f104561ba11d2687d9f8e5b\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: International visitors, like many Kiwis, love nature. Sixty-five percent go walking or tramping, and 45 percent visit a national park while they\u2019re here in New Zealand. Access charging will allow us to provide world-class manuhiri experiences while protecting nature through reinvesting this revenue. The access charges will focus on popular tourism experiences, creating a more sustainable way to fund their upkeep and improvement by those who use them. Charging international visitors at four majestic sites is estimated to generate around $60 million a year for conservation, to be ring-fenced for conservation work like upgrading bridges and tracks, pest and predator control, and habitat restoration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022427004ebff5b4ca887df79dd342abea8\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps for implementing access charging?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e1d88b3dee34abc944d157b13f3027a\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: We are carefully planning the next steps, including suitable physical and digital infrastructure required to support execution. The Department of Conservation want to take targeted consultation with concessionaires, local communities, and iwi for feedback on implementation options. New charges are intended to be in place by summer 2027.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002212b6dbe4891f44bc8b459d5d9d072c42\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022839c1ef7e38446bb95c498da72b513bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022839c1ef7e38446bb95c498da72b513bb\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Housing: Does he agree with Hon Chris Bishop that homelessness has \u201Cpotentially ticked up a little bit, up a little bit more in the last couple of years\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022caee1f4c2baf4c138df75ba3578fdd75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022caee1f4c2baf4c138df75ba3578fdd75\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context of the full quote, homelessness is a long-running issue for New Zealand. I have said in this House previously that homelessness has, unfortunately, been increasing in New Zealand for many years. No one here wants to see Kiwis living homeless and particularly without shelter, but homelessness is not just a housing issue; it is driven by a range of structural and systemic failures that may reflect\u2014and do reflect\u2014the broader economic environment. This Government takes homelessness seriously, particularly those living without shelter, and that\u2019s why we are fixing the fundamentals of our housing market and making sure we have the right houses in the right places with the right support for people in genuine need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a540a352ce349fa814122699b359636\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Does he consider a 90 percent increase in homelessness in T\u0101maki-makaurau to be \u201Ca little bit\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220773ed462ee9481cb28a278aad323744\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: There are a range of data reports and comments that have been made over many years by councils, by community housing providers, and, indeed, by members of the Opposition. We have taken action by directing officials to provide advice on short-term, targeted interventions to provide help and support to those living without shelter. Officials and Ministers have liaised with numerous providers on these matters, and we await final advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3351f71bc114990970e5b91b0f1f989\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Auckland City Mission that his decision to refuse emergency housing to people suffering from pneumonia or undergoing dialysis has forced them to live on the streets and is putting pressure on already overrun hospital emergency departments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022632f85174b744ee097a94d71c34487df\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: That is the first that I\u2019ve heard of that particular quote, but what I have heard from the CEO of the community housing association of New Zealand, Paul Gilberd, is that the work we undertook with Priority One, in ensuring that over 3,000 children have come out of motels over the last 18 months, is an absolutely fantastic result, delivered in a timely manner, with absolute empathy for those young children, who were living in a social, moral, and financial catastrophe that remained when we came into this administration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229061ef3bd814627b5f835a11e0042a3\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Why, if Chris Bishop has said he is open to making it less difficult for people to access emergency housing, is he not acting immediately to remove the barriers preventing people from getting a roof over their heads?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223029ea6d4e574b8e90f98a6014032539\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: There are a number of issues that are conflated in the member\u2019s question. We have taken action to direct officials and seek their advice over short-term interventions targeted to help particularly those living without shelter and rough sleeping. We\u2019ve also undertaken a range of activities, both short-term and long-term, to make it easier for New Zealanders to build houses and to access affordable housing, whether or not that\u2019s the mahi of Minister Chris Penk around building and construction laws, the mahi of Minister Bishop around the Resource Management Act and a number of other matters, or, indeed, the mahi that Minister Luxon and others have undertaken for emergency housing. We are absolutely clear: we will not return to the utopic boondoggles of 100,000 KiwiBuild homes or the moral catastrophe that was emergency housing on a large scale that affected places like Ulster Street in Hamilton West.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ba42713ebe54010aa0ecd8009a22bf3\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when reports from his own officials suggest there are more homeless people than ever, is he constructing 86 percent fewer State homes in 2025 than there were being built in 2023?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c0879b7633d4bd590da45326386d9b6\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: As the members of this House are very aware, this Government does not believe it is only the Government that can build homes for New Zealanders. There are a range of parties, whether or not that\u2019s community housing providers, M\u0101ori housing providers, or, indeed, a range of other potential housing providers\u2014but particularly private developers\u2014that can build supply into the demand that is currently happening here in New Zealand. What we do know, though, and what we are absolutely committing to, is ensuring that those with genuine need get the right places and the right houses with the right support to address their needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227622eaeea2dc4b69aef480a7cfba9322\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when M\u0101ori are disproportionately represented among the homeless, when wh\u0101nau in T\u0101maki-makau-rau are facing a 90 percent rise in homelessness, and when even those battling serious illness are being turned away from emergency housing, is his Government not only cutting the number of State homes being built but refusing to act on Chris Bishop\u2019s admission that you could make it easier for people to get a roof over their heads?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022576a4e520d154858a0a65625c686bfb9\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: As the member is aware, we are very committed to supporting M\u0101ori-led housing delivery across places as far, far away as Utakura in the Hokianga Harbour, where, I understand, the member has some whakapapa connections\u2014or, indeed, Te Kao, where other members of this House have some whakapapa connections\u2014and also futureproofing and cost-proofing the transitional housing costs that we inhaled from the previous administration that were not cost-proof. These are the things that we do knowing that many, many M\u0101ori live in transitional housing that this Government has taken decisions on to ensure that those M\u0101ori in genuine need for housing support get it in a timely manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b45e490f1ec04106b966729640751504\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Mental Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022 data-id=\u002213416795788f47c6a0395940d9ce4e57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213416795788f47c6a0395940d9ce4e57\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Mental Health: What recent reports has he seen on growth in the mental health workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022c616ae6e802f4b50afb2591e4fa608b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c616ae6e802f4b50afb2591e4fa608b6\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for Mental Health):\u003C/span\u003E This Government is focused on faster access to timely mental health and addiction support. Health New Zealand payroll data shows there has been an almost 10 percent growth in the number of front-line mental health and addiction workers since this Government was elected. When Kiwis, their loved ones, friends, or family members make the brave step of reaching out for help, this Government is committed to ensuring we have the right support in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff12b99696764b0693d5acaae33590da\u0022\u003EGreg Fleming\u003C/span\u003E: Where has there been significant growth in the mental health workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299327fb132144d958898d654aa0f630f\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister for Mental Health, one of my top priorities is to grow the mental health and addiction workforce. Health New Zealand data shows there\u2019s been a significant growth in front-line staff\u2014registered mental health nurses, up by 21 percent; nursing support workers, up 20 percent; clinical psychologists and drug and alcohol workers, up 6 percent; psychiatry senior medical officers, up 9.5 percent. Workforce should never be a barrier to accessing timely mental health and addiction support, and this Government is working hard to make sure it isn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244b4ee5352c040b48324f9d5aeba8fb6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just before the member asks the question, there\u2019s a lot of a conversations going on in the House when there shouldn\u2019t be. Questions are asked in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244e3ff9c5a154dbcb028865325b06e63\u0022\u003EGreg Fleming\u003C/span\u003E: What has been the result of the significant growth in the mental health workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257e9f4e71a5442598edd01f8667e7435\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: In my view, one of the biggest barriers to timely mental health and addiction support in New Zealand is too many workforce vacancies. Since coming into office, the mental health workforce vacancy rate is down, total number of front-line mental health staff are up, and resignation rates are lower. Behind every one of these new front-line workers are hundreds of Kiwis now getting the support they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c0544d0be40475ba6872f0470f9e619\u0022\u003EGreg Fleming\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has he received on the increased front-line workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c668adefdbb047c787912a171b16b25d\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re starting to turn the corner on mental health. Our plan is delivering decreased wait times and an increased workforce. The New Zealand college of psychiatrists said last week New Zealand was turning a corner on workforce shortages. Dr Hiran Thabrew, the chair of the college, said, \u201Cthe Government had demonstrated a genuine commitment to listening to those working at the coalface of the mental health system.\u201D The Auditor-General called for a specific mental health workforce plan in response to wait times and workforce shortages increasing under the previous Government. As a result, this is a priority of this Government, which we delivered in our first year: a dedicated mental health and addiction workforce plan that is delivering results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d20b9c4cdbd4b73a534b79baad42ded\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Is it his expectation that officials will include workforce gaps data in the refreshed mental health workforce plan due to be released soon, or will he once again let Lester Levy delete those numbers from the report before it\u2019s published?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d5daac03f024fcabff819f7a2b54e41\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I\u2019m sorry\u2014[Interruption] No, sit down. Have another go at asking the question. You can\u2019t make an accusation like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209d17f0f6f7a43cf8a1c4455f1ba0e8a\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Is it his expectation that officials will include workforce gaps data in the refreshed mental health workforce plan that he just mentioned, or will he allow those numbers to be missing from the report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2d0ff2b97594b339b4f192ebd0b1096\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve never shied away from the workforce shortages being the biggest barrier to timely care in mental health. In fact, it was actually at my instruction that the workforce vacancy data was put into the mental health workforce plan in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a702f226f6341d999c9a7575d28e031\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a4b64fb6c284893b6bab0693ff692b5\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002272f06755edc84b4e95e554ae37f9fafd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272f06755edc84b4e95e554ae37f9fafd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EIn challenging times\u2014like a cold winter\u2014you have a moment to reflect on the origins of our country and who we truly are. This country is a nation of migrants. If there\u2019s one thing that in all our differences we have in common, it is that each of us are either people or descendants of people who made brave sacrifices to be here on these islands. That simple fact about our origin story should tell us something about the New Zealand spirit. We\u2019re a nation of pioneers, and that should tell us about how we overcome our problems. It should not be a question of asking the Government to solve them. It should be a question of a people who do not accept things as they are but seek to change them through their actions. We have a Government that I\u2019m proud to be part of that believes in and reinforces that spirit and, though its policies, is making it easier to build a home, a career, and a life on these islands. We\u2019re delivering a smaller, more efficient Government so that people can be enabled by quality services to actually build the life that they want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EIf you think of those groups of farmers, think of the farmers\u2014well, thank God for the farmers, the people who are holding the export receipts up and feeding eight times our population. This Government is partnering with farmers to get rid of significant natural areas, to give a Resource Management Act that allows people to use their own property, and introducing a sensible approach to emissions so the most efficient farmers in the world aren\u2019t driven out of business so those who emit more can take their place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EYou think about the students and the teachers. This Government has a revolutionary idea: a knowledgeable adult with a rich curriculum standing at the front of one classroom of students teaching knowledge that will be tested by an exam with all the knowledge in it. It sounds revolutionary. Actually, it\u2019s obvious and necessary, and I\u2019m proud to be in a Government with Erica Stanford, who is making it happen. But we\u2019re also giving the choice of charters. We\u2019re going through early childhood education and ripping off the barnacles of a calcified regulatory and funding system so that people in early childhood can get back to doing what the parents want them to do\u2014help young New Zealanders reach their potential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWell, what about landlords and tenants? This Government has taken away the crazy changes to mortgage interest deductibility so that landlords pay tax like everybody else. We\u2019ve simplified the Residential Tenancies Act so landlords can take a chance on someone that they might not if it was impossible to get your property rights back. What has happened as a result? Well, actually, I forgot to mention even pets are getting a better run, with pet bonds under this Government, but rents are going down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhat about employers and employees? Brooke van Velden, our Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety, is making WorkSafe a friend and ally in being safe, not a punitive organisation that people fear will come round and cost them a packet. People are safer, but they\u2019re also going to get their holiday pay in a simple, timely, and fair way, without all the confusion. Pay equity will be focused on gender equity, and we\u2019re going to see a workplace where people have red tape cut across the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhat about doctors, nurses, and patients? We\u2019ve actually put in place some targets and said it doesn\u2019t matter if the cat is black or white or public or private, so long as the patient gets seen. We\u2019ve had a record investment in medicines for New Zealanders. We\u2019re turning around the culture of Pharmac and making sure that if a drug is available in two other developed countries, it should be available here within 30 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThen you get to builders and first-home buyers. Simon Court and Chris Bishop are the dream team when it comes to replacing the Resource Management Act so we can actually get things built in this beautiful country. Chris Penk is improving and developing the building material laws so that we can build at the same price as those in the rest of the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EYou\u2019ll notice that farmers and shoppers, students and teachers, landlords and tenants, employers and employees, doctors, nurses, and patients, builders and first-home buyers\u2014these are not people who should be set against each other. In our pioneering spirit we also have a partnering spirit that together we can create the conditions where people just like our forebears who moved to these islands chose to do. People can make a difference in their own lives with a Government that makes laws that enables and empowers them instead of dividing and punishing them. That is how I look to our pioneering spirit and why I\u2019m proud to be part of this Government that believes in it and enables it so we can all live better in New Zealand. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022a296859aef7d47da830396767672f597\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a296859aef7d47da830396767672f597\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Associate Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, the Treasury issued a very important document relevant for the problems we are enduring as an economy and as a country today. It\u2019s a report into the long-term insights briefing, and, specifically, it\u2019s about the response to the COVID-19 pandemic. It is perhaps unsurprising that we\u2019ve just learned this afternoon that Chris Hipkins and Ayesha Verrall and Grant Robertson and Jacinda Ardern are refusing to front up to the COVID-19 royal commission and answer public questions about the economic response to COVID. Why are they refusing to do that? Because they are ashamed of their record, and they know that, held up to the light, the decisions they made in 2020 and 2021 and 2022 have led us into the problems we are enduring today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds says, \u201COh, the Government was operating in difficult times.\u201D No one disputes that. But, actually, it was really clear from the second-half of 2020 and into 2021 that further stimulus of the New Zealand economy was not only not required; it was counter-productive. The Treasury makes the point: 36 percent of spending for the COVID response occurred after June 2021. Why is this date important? It\u2019s important because at that point GDP had already returned to its pre-pandemic levels and inflation was already outside the band and approaching 7.3 percent. Thirty-six percent of spending occurred after June 2021. From financial year 2015 to 2019, core Crown debt was actually flat\u2014it actually went down a bit. But from 2019 to 2023, net core Crown debt increased by 169\u00A0percent to $155 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220945c6fb9a9541f58cd4873b57a5cba1\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: What did we get for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264f8dd82e12640c8868b3dae417bdf8b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: David Seymour, the Deputy Prime Minister, says, \u201CWhat do we have to show for that?\u201D It\u2019s a very good question. Our health system is not 169 percent better off. Our education system is absolutely not 169 percent better off. Our economy is not 169 percent better off. That is the debt disaster this Government inherited. That is the inflation disaster this Government inherited. That is the cause of the recession this Government inherited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFaced with an environment in which the Government and Governments all around the world were pulling back, the Labour Government did the opposite. They put the pedal to the metal on the spending accelerator. Budget 2022 was a nadir\u2014$6 billion dollars in the operating allowance of new spending, and, on top of that, the cost of living payment counted outside the allowances according to rules made up by Grant Robertson at the time. Remember the cost of living payment? That was the payment that went to French backpackers who hadn\u2019t worked in New Zealand for 10 years, dead people, investment bankers in London who lived here five years ago who happened to have an IRD account. This was reckless, wanton spending. Labour were in Government at a time when they could use the excuse of COVID to follow every fiscal fantasy they\u2019d ever wanted to indulge\u2014hence why we ended up with the Jobs for Nature programme, hence why we ended up with welfare increases, hence why we ended up with alleged shovel-ready projects, some of which are still being built five years later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ELabour was in Government at a time when they had an excuse to point to massively increased spending. The problem is all New Zealanders have had to pay the price. We paid the price through higher debt that my kid and his kids will have to repay. We are paying the price through years of inflation and high interest rates to get inflation back within the band that has crunched the economy and put New Zealand into recession. It is this Government, as David Seymour says, that is making the tough choices after years of fiscal fantasies. The country can\u2019t afford Labour. We are taking the hard decisions to get this country back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u00229304b750bec04b87818457c4b86c3935\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229304b750bec04b87818457c4b86c3935\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Pika. At the end of June this year, we lost a valued member of our wh\u0101nau\u2014Takutai\u2014and it was actually one of the worst experiences that I\u2019ve ever had in my life. Not only did we lose her; the day after we buried her, we had to come back to Wellington, Rawiri, wind up her grieving team, close her T\u0101maki Makaurau office, and deal with all the things that come with that of a leader who was so passionate about her region in T\u0101maki Makaurau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we quickly had to do before we even had the chance to wipe off our tears is pivoting from the discussion of losing someone\u2014so unexpected\u2014and then moving into what a byelection would look like. That\u2019s not what my k\u014Drero is about. Takutai was someone who, just as the previous speaker highlighted, stood up for what really mattered to people. She was always worried and concerned about those that Governments often leave behind and forget about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we remember well about Takutai is when she was with us during COVID. During COVID, we had to deal with many things, and I found myself almost nodding at some of the things that Chris Bishop said, because we dealt with a one-size-fits-all COVID response for M\u0101ori. Takutai was on the front line, as she was helping with welfare packs. Takutai was on the front line; she was sitting there and using her Wh\u0101nau Ora kaupapa to go out and talk into the depths of those communities who had been forgotten during the public health response. She was there and learnt how to do the vaccine, and when the Government at the time ignored the advice of experts to come up with a M\u0101ori vaccine roll-out, she\u2014with many of us others\u2014stood out there and never forgot her community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EShe was there when the lockdowns, the bubbles, confused and harmed wh\u0101nau. She was there picking up rangatahi who were made homeless, who were forgotten about, because their families weren\u2019t safe. She advocated for T\u0101maki Makaurau in a humble way and she contributed to those communities in a way that only a wahine who had struggled could understand. She was an unapologetic voice in T\u0101maki Makaurau. She never once backed down, when even the pressure was on her, on the way that we did things\u2014so tikanga-led, so staunch on manaaki-led, so staunch on what we think should be right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EShe was so staunch on the fact that she belonged to a party that would sit there and put in a wealth tax. She was staunch to a party that, despite the Government at the time and today\u2019s Government, were opposed to seabed mining. She was staunch to making sure that when people were trying to legislate the likes of rongo\u0101 and kaupapa, we were fighting against it, because she believed in the weight of being unapologetically M\u0101ori. Those sorts of voices really matter in this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo, when we lost Takutai\u2019s voice as an unapologetic wahine M\u0101ori in this place, we lost more than a seat. I think one of the things for Takutai is that as a wahine, she truly took hits. She was a wahine that used and valued her culture. She wore moko kauae. She would wear ridicule, but she would still wear it with pride for the world to see how proud she was of her culture. She was absolutely uncompromising in that humble little body of hers. She was from a wh\u0101nau who knew the cycle of poverty. She knew the cycle in her wh\u0101nau of having to break from having no reo intergenerationally to having the reo. She was a woman who was an independent m\u0101m\u0101. She knew what it was like to struggle and bring up your children on your own, with multiple baby daddies. She took pride in what it was to be that m\u0101m\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EShe believed in our movement because she wanted us to be transformational. Those are the kind of identities that this place misses and this place needs. I think when we talk about the lived experiences that we have, that often outweighs the political, ministerial, parliamentary experience. We need more people in here who have lived experience and who don\u2019t have to sit there and say, \u201CI\u2019ve been around for this long time; therefore, I am more important or I know more.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ETakutai would want to see and make sure that we hold voices up like that in this place, and she would want to make sure that we never forget what she stood for. Time and time again, we see w\u0101hine leaders like her, like Kiri, like Oriini, that are out there making sure they do their weight for te ao M\u0101ori. Kia ora r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002284c14377cfc64ac89c921fda745f61f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284c14377cfc64ac89c921fda745f61f9\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Deputy Leader\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We got a clear illustration of the priorities that that side of the House have with regards to leading the country today. Just during this time that the House has been sitting over the course of the day, we had a senior member of the coalition wanting to take up the time of this House debating whether or not we should be using the term Aotearoa or only New Zealand. We have a Minister of Education who thinks she is a success because she finally got rid of this book for new entrant children that had six M\u0101ori words in it. That was going to be the demise of their literacy, and she is successful for doing that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThat Government is clearly\u2014when we just look at those two particular issues\u2014out of touch with what New Zealanders care about. Instead of coming to this House and speaking about jobs, health, homes, and the cost of living crisis that so many New Zealanders are faced with, we hear a debate about Aotearoa versus New Zealand. We hear a discussion about this book for new entrant children that has six M\u0101ori words in it that is so dangerous! They are out of touch with what New Zealanders are feeling and experiencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI wanted to discuss today in the House, and highlight, the important work of the people\u2019s select committee that has started this week. I want to acknowledge all of the members: Nanaia Mahuta, Lianne Dalziel, Steve Chadwick, Lyn Pillay, Sue Bradford, Ria Bond, Jo Hayes, Jackie Blue, Belinda Vernon, and Marilyn Waring. I want to acknowledge those women for their courage, for their principled stance, the way in which they are advocating for women, and sticking up for what is absolutely the right thing to do, and that is to fight back against the agenda of this Government and the moves that they have made against pay equity. It is embarrassing for the women on that side of the House that a former National MP whose term began in 1975\u201450 years ago\u2014would be more progressive on pay equity and advocating for women than what they are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has a long-held reputation for being progressive for women, going back to New Zealand being the first country where women won the right to vote. Before this Government came in, we\u2019d also reached that milestone of having 50 percent representation of women in this Parliament. Many of the female MPs on that side of the House stand up proudly at international events talking about these achievements. But what is the point when those very same women are not representing the women of New Zealand? What makes the pill even harder to swallow is that two of the key people involved with changing the pay equity landscape, taking away pay equity from women, are women. We have a Minister of Finance who is a woman. We have a Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety who is a woman. Surely, they have to take some blame here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIn saying that, it is so important that we have male allies, and I\u2019m disappointed that Luxon, Christopher Luxon, couldn\u2019t be that ally for women in New Zealand. At the point that Nicola Willis proposed scrapping pay equity as a way of saving her Budget, as a way of paying for tax cuts that were unaffordable, as a way of giving tax breaks to landlords and tobacco companies, he should have stood up and said that throwing women under the bus to save the Budget was not an option. But did he do that? Instead, this week what we saw was Christopher Luxon stating that he had no regrets and no intention of reversing the changes. As he said, \u201C\u2026 the system had become too broad, too loose, and, frankly, unworkable.\u201D Now, the only thing that is too loose and, frankly, unworkable is Christopher Luxon\u2019s leadership and the coalition that he is failing to lead. My question to Christopher Luxon is: how does undermining pay equity and consequentially undercutting New Zealand women make life better for New Zealanders? How does it make it better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a2f0223b6a64025a26d06cd76b03b70\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Six years, Carmel\u2014six years!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c725ba41372741d8a138c1c223548c65\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the answer to that\u2014to the member that is rattling on, on the other side\u2014is that it doesn\u2019t. It makes life worse. Life has got worse under that Government. Life has got worse under Christopher Luxon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022137cc54a281b4273addf741afbc6d233\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022137cc54a281b4273addf741afbc6d233\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E We are a Government that is aspirational for our children. It\u2019s very rich for the member opposite to get up and say we\u2019re out of touch, because I\u2019ll tell you what\u2019s out of touch: in 2018, under that Government\u2019s watch, when they knew that 40\u00A0percent of kids were at curriculum for mathematics and 26 percent of M\u0101ori kids were at curriculum by the time they went to high school, what did they do? Absolutely nothing. That\u2019s out of touch. Sending those kids into high school to not get qualifications when they knew, in year 5, that they were failing and chose to do nothing\u2014that\u2019s embarrassing. That\u2019s doing nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe are not a Government that is going to sit by and watch those kinds of decline points on a graph and sit there and do absolutely nothing about it. When I came into office, the Ministry of Education\u2019s briefing to an incoming Minister, after six years of that Government, said that we are not providing excellent or equitable outcomes\u2014after six years of that Government. We are not prepared to sit by and watch decline happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why we as a Government have come in and undertaken transformational change in the education sector. A brand-new, year-by-year, knowledge-rich, internationally benchmarked curriculum in English and maths that has been widely accepted and celebrated by primary and intermediate schoolteachers. We have a maths action plan\u2014twenty thousand teachers have been trained in it. Thirty thousand maths books and textbooks have gone out to children. Structured literacy: we are the first country in the world to mandate it for every single child learning to read in this country\u2014thirty thousand teachers have been trained. We have twice-yearly assessments that are coming in this year to make sure that we are measuring progress for our children and reporting it to parents, who want to know how their children are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe are setting our youngest learners up for success so that by the time they go to high school, they can achieve a qualification that means something, and that\u2019s why we have now turned our eyes to a national qualification. Why did we have to do that? Well, again, there was an embarrassment. When I came into being a Minister, the previous Government had undertaken an NCEA change programme that was completely dysfunctional and a total and utter disaster. The Education Review Office report shows that 70 percent of teachers were not ready for it. The warning signs were flashing. The Minister of Education at the time was warned, \u201CDo not do this. Pull up, pull up. You need to delay.\u201D Guess what they did? In the face of 70 percent of the teachers who were going to implement this, they kept going. They kept going, despite the fact\u2014now we know\u2014that 60 percent of teachers for that new level 1 that they implemented do not think that the qualification is worthwhile. That level 1 qualification that they put in place, 70 percent of employers don\u2019t value it, 50 percent of parents don\u2019t understand it, and two out of five kids don\u2019t understand it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ENow, if Chris Hipkins can come along and say that he understood the problems and they were working on it, then why did he put in place a half-baked plan right before the election that 70\u00A0percent of teachers weren\u2019t ready for? That meant that the sector wasn\u2019t able to deliver the new level 1. Either he didn\u2019t understand the problem or he understood it but he didn\u2019t know what the solutions were. We are a Government that knows what the solutions are when it comes to NCEA. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe are making sure that there are not going to be three years of high-stakes exams\u2014[Interruption] You should listen, because you might learn something! We won\u2019t have three years of high-stakes assessments, like most of the people we compare ourselves to. We\u2019re going to have a whole year in year 11, where right the way through the year\u2014all four terms\u2014students will be learning a knowledge-rich curriculum that goes all the way through the year, gearing them up for success in year 12, when they are proposed to be sitting the New Zealand Certificate of Education, and, in year\u00A013, the Advanced Certificate of Education. The key difference is that they will learn the whole curriculum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s one statistic I want to leave this House with before I finish: with the new level 1 that the previous Government put in place, only 11\u00A0percent of students were sitting all four maths standards\u201411\u00A0percent. How can you experience success at high school when you move from year to year, when only 11\u00A0percent of students are sitting the whole curriculum? What a failure. This new qualification will ensure that all children learn from a knowledge-rich curriculum throughout the whole year. We are keeping the best of NCEA. We are making sure there will be internal assessments and externals; amazing vocational pathways that will set children up for success in the trades. This is the cloak that we will be wrapping our kids in\u2014education that will set them up for success. We are no longer going to sit by and do nothing. This is what transformational change looks like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc0644c315f24e838f2065c3b9301dfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc0644c315f24e838f2065c3b9301dfe\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. T\u0101maki-makau-rau is the beating heart of our nation\u2019s economy, but its pulse is strongest when its people are thriving, when every wh\u0101nau has the tools and opportunities to succeed. Its pulse is always strongest when businesses feel supported, when they know that despite global headwinds, there is hope, there is aspiration. We know that when communities are equipped with the skills and the opportunities, they not only contribute to our city\u2019s growth but also strengthen the mana of their families for generations to come. It only takes one small decision in a family to lift it out of intergenerational poverty and give it the hope that it deserves for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EHowever, too many of our people, too many of our communities, still face barriers that stop them from reaching their full potential. We must remove those barriers and invest in pathways that lift them up. Too many of our businesses feel that they are battling headwinds alone. Too many of our communities are looking for leadership and for hope in places where, for far too long, hope does not exist. In acknowledging those barriers, we must come together, not in political rhetoric, but to look towards how we can grow our economy, where everybody succeeds and everybody does well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ET\u0101maki-makau-rau\u2019s growth must be inclusive. The benefits of progress should be felt from M\u0101ngere to the leafy suburbs of the inner city, from the bustling of downtown to the calm country areas in the east and in the west. But we know that for far too many, this has escaped them. We know that some are doing better than others. Our future, however, lies in backing local leadership for community solutions\u2014for those that understand the challenges and the aspirations, who are supported to deliver for those who mean the most to them, whether it\u2019s their families, whether it\u2019s their community, whether it\u2019s their business or their colleagues. We know that when you back local leadership, success will come. The pulse we speak of will be stronger than ever, and the heartbeat will be a heartbeat that, of course, extends across the country, for Auckland truly is the heartbeat of this beautiful country of ours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe city is diverse. We know what its strengths are. Its strengths are its diversity. We know that its strengths are also in its M\u0101ori community. We know that its strengths stem from every part of T\u0101maki-makau-rau that has the opportunity to do well. We know, of course, when M\u0101ori do well, T\u0101maki-makau-rau does well. For many M\u0101ori, though, in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, this is not the case. We must make sure that the benefits that are extended to all in T\u0101maki-makau-rau are inclusive for a stronger T\u0101maki-makau-rau into the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe have choices to make, and political leaders across the House and, indeed, in local government have choices that they must make. Those choices are important. Those choices must be informed, and those choices must recognise that they must connect to the places where it needs it the most\u2014and that\u2019s in our community and in our homes. We have a choice to let growth leave people behind or to ensure that every person, every family, and every community has the chance to stand tall and to live well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe challenge for each and every one of us, from the halls of Parliament to the streets around the country: let\u2019s build a future for T\u0101maki-makau-rau where opportunity is not determined by your postcode but by your potential. Let\u2019s build a future for T\u0101maki-makau-rau where communities are brimming with hope and aspiration. Let\u2019s build a future for T\u0101maki-makau-rau where businesses continue to thrive and show the opportunity for training and meaningful income into the future. We do have choices to make, and we want to make sure that the leadership of this country makes the choices that will continue to support our hopes and aspiration. For if T\u0101maki-makau-rau thrives, so too does Aotearoa New Zealand. I encourage all of us to heed these words, to look towards our common good and not simply fight in the trenches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022558c64fa3330482dad758467821716c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022558c64fa3330482dad758467821716c9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This Government is making it easier and more affordable to build so that we can deliver the infrastructure this country desperately needs and to put a roof over the heads of every Kiwi family. Simply put, building in New Zealand takes far too long. The regulatory burden is too heavy, costs are too high, and productivity hasn\u2019t improved since the mid-1980s. We know that to grow the building sector, we must make the system more efficient, reduce costs, and give the private sector the certainty it needs. This is an exercise in improving productivity, improving cost of living outcomes, and promoting economic growth. It will also result in a better quality of life for Kiwis: warm, dry homes; classrooms for our kids; roads that move freight and get people home on time; hospitals to meet the needs of our population; and jobs, jobs, jobs\u2014driven by $6 billion worth of Government infrastructure projects with shovels in the ground before Christmas this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe changes that we have announced so far include: (1) removing barriers to overseas building products to boost competition and lower prices; (2) making it easier for Kiwis to build garages, sheds, and sleepouts\u2014shedding red tape, if you will\u2014and exempting granny flats up to 70 square metres from consenting rules; (3) allowing trusted building companies to build without a consent if they meet homeowner protection criteria and enabling plumbers and drainlayers to self-certify, as electricians and gasfitters already can; (4) extending deadlines for earthquake-prone building remediation to give owners certainty while the system is being reviewed; (5) changing installation rules to increase flexibility and cut building costs by up to $15,000 per new home without reducing energy efficiency outcomes; (6) backing building consent authorities to boost competition, with the first private building consent authority now in operation; (7) providing certainty to the construction sector by stopping the rolling maul of building code system changes and moving to a predictable three-year update cycle; (8) cutting delays by requiring 80 percent of building inspections to be completed within three working days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022058e3a662ccd4d8fb1d890bd1f5e8142\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s more?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b22660ef5ce48e2803b83ddb15d0fce\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll pause for breath, Mr Speaker, and reassure my colleagues and friends there is more\u2014much, much more. For example: (9) fast-tracking residential solar by halving consent processing times from 20 to 10 working days for buildings with solar panels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESupporting trusted tradies\u2014this is (10) for those following along\u2014by strengthening registration and licensing to hold cowboys accountable; (11) reviewing fire safety rules so that we can better protect people and their properties; (12) increasing remote inspections, with improved guidance to reduce delays; (13) lucky for some, cutting the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2019s building determination processing time by 80 percent; (14) exempting small building projects like home renovations from paying the building levy, increasing the threshold of payment up to $65,000; (15) streamlining building consents by defining minor variations so that builders can make small changes like swapping comparable products or simple design changes without formal amendments; (16) boosting competition by allowing designers to specify alternative building products on a consent; (17) enabling customisation of multi-proof designs, which are pre-consented building consents, with a fast-track approval process; (18) highlighting delays by publishing quarterly building consent and inspection data; (19) cutting \u201Cdam\u201D red tape, so that small-dam owners are freed from burdensome regulations; and (20) reducing compliance costs for councils by cutting the frequency of competence assessments for building control officers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESir, with one minute to go, I can reassure you and colleagues that there is more, much more that we are still yet to do. For example, this Government is committed also to improving consistency in the consenting system around the country, fairer liability settings, and practical reforms to the earthquake-prone building system rules so that we don\u2019t have buildings left derelict and abandoned. These are all big wins for New Zealand. They\u2019re not ideological; they\u2019re just plain common sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b94e50ab2bc48ad95a9edd488c34c5c\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Common sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221117342647c14dcf970fe6a976d4b222\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right\u2014common sense, as my friend and colleague Mark Cameron points out. This Government is working hard to cut the red tape to let tradies get on with the job of building a better New Zealand, or, as we say on this side of the House, getting New Zealand back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe Government projects are an important piece of the puzzle as well, and I do want to mention in particular the defence estate\u2019s procurement we\u2019re doing, and my colleague and friend the Minister of defence is pleased to support that. That work in the defence estate across the country, up and down this land, supporting our sailors, soldiers, and aviators, is benefiting from our increased investment. They deserve it. We need it for national security. We need it for economic security. We\u2019re helping them to build. We\u2019re helping us to build. We\u2019re getting New Zealand back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u002222e3582d948948108cf9399a03f3e239\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222e3582d948948108cf9399a03f3e239\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E In 2015, in France, millions and millions of people rallied\u2014including world leaders, including Benjamin Netanyahu\u2014against the, yes, deplorable killings of journalists and cartoonists working at Charlie Hebdo. Millions and millions rallied, standing up for freedom of speech. Since October 2023 in Gaza, between 192 and 270 journalists have been killed for trying to express what is happening in Gaza, 90 journalists have been imprisoned, 132 journalists have been injured for trying to relay an issue of global importance to all of us: the truth\u2014for trying to express not just freedom of speech but the truth. In the context of Israel not permitting or allowing any journalists into the region, who covers up? What do those actions spell, when a State won\u2019t allow any journalists to see what they are doing\u2014the inhumanity and the atrocities that Israel is committing and has been committing for so long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ERight now, mokopuna in Gaza need all of us in this House to find a backbone. Mokopuna in Gaza need everyone in this House to find their courage to stand up and demand that our Government play its role in defending humanity. What kind of world are we bringing our mokopuna into if we don\u2019t use every mite of our decency and responsibility and do our jobs to call Israel\u2019s violence and genocide to account, like many the world over are already doing, including the traditional allies and countries that we are supposed to align with? Where are our backbones for standing up? I cannot desire a world for my own mokopuna where it is passable for a State to murder anyone else\u2019s mokopuna; that is offensive to my own mokopuna, to wh\u0101nau everywhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo, no, we will not be apologising for the language that we use in this House to hold this Government to account. We are proud of standing up and using our voice and our platform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EPeople are exhausted. Every week around the world for at least the past two years, activists on the ground\u2014that is where the backbone and leadership is. They are the millions around the world from all levels of communities who have been calling power to account. How can we let this pass, their murderous agenda? How can we let them just feel like they have a right to murder journalists for trying to express and share this truth? More journalists have been killed in the Gaza war than in the US Civil War, World Wars I and II, the Korean War, Vietnam War, the wars in the former Yugoslavia, and the post-9/11 war in Afghanistan combined. That is appalling, but that is exactly the indication of Israel wanting to keep a lid on their savage murder, on their genocide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWe will not apologise for asking for every MP to show some backbone, and we will continue to call for sanctions against a country who are destroying humanity for all of us, in every single country, in every single community across the entire planet, because of the pass that they are receiving. If we allow this to go unanswered for, we are endangering the humanity of the globe down to our very own communities, for every single one of us. I am proud of my colleague Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick for sticking to her truth, to our truth, to the truth of activists all around the world, for the truth of the genocide that is happening in Gaza.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022baddef524dbc4a15ac67cf3477dd8386\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022baddef524dbc4a15ac67cf3477dd8386\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. This Government is not focused on the things that matter most to New Zealanders. They have broken their promises. They are out of touch. New Zealanders tell us the most important things to them are jobs, health, homes, and real action on the cost of living, and we have seen none of that and no credible plan from this Government to address those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThey would rather do things like cut books that have, apparently, too many M\u0101ori words in them for our tamariki. Six M\u0101ori words are too many words according to the Minister of Education and this Government. It was described as just one book, but we find out today, through documents, that actually it was many more books than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThis Government is obsessed with attacking M\u0101ori and te reo M\u0101ori, right down to the books that all of our tamariki have access to. It might sound like just a small thing, just a few books, just a few M\u0101ori words, but this is on top of the pile-on that this Government has done on te reo M\u0101ori. They have insisted\u2014insisted\u2014that our Government departments be referred to by their English names\u2014like, what\u2019s that about? This Minister cut $30 million from Te Ahu o te Reo M\u0101ori, which was professional learning development for all teachers to increase their proficiency and expertise in te reo M\u0101ori to be able to use in their classrooms. Nope\u2014$30 million gone, to be put into maths books. Why does it have to be one or the other? This Government has also cut resource teachers M\u0101ori and resource teachers literacy. This Government has also cut things like Te Aka Whai Ora, the M\u0101ori Health Authority. I could go on and on and on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to say that this was described by those education experts, those in the sector, saying that this is an act of racism. Literacy experts say there is no problem with M\u0101ori words in books for learner readers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EToday, we find out that this was not the ministry suggesting that this should happen but, in fact, the Minister insisting that this should happen. It was the Minister who directed that these books containing these M\u0101ori words be cut. The words are marae, karanga, kai, karakia, wharenui, koro, and hongi\u2014something Christopher Luxon either doesn\u2019t know how to do or didn\u2019t want to do with a visiting Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe author of the book says that when they designed this book, it was written because they were thinking about all of the children that we have got out there. Even though they are not learning in te reo M\u0101ori, they still have a really unique relationship with it, because this is Aotearoa: te reo M\u0101ori is one of our official languages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe Better Start Literacy Approach founder, Gail Gillon, said, \u201CThere is absolutely no evidence to suggest children are finding this reader confusing. And in fact, our data would suggest otherwise.\u201D M\u0101ori Principals\u2019 Association described these changes as racist and white supremacist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EAlso, the Minister has defended it and doubled down on it and rejected all of these claims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI asked the Minister this question: where is the rest of the curriculum? Where is Te M\u0101taiaho, the framework that had been developed and agreed\u2014and replaced with something knowledge rich, which nobody in the ministry can properly define, to provide a framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWho are the expert voices that this Minister is taking advice from? Her officials certainly were not recommending this happen, in terms of these books. We need to see the curriculum before we are asked to agree to the assessment framework. Kia ora, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u002214a41ab8bf9247918d98cb3df1d8f153\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214a41ab8bf9247918d98cb3df1d8f153\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s no secret what matters to my neighbours in Takanini: the cost of living, law and order, safety, education, health, and Mill Road. It\u2019s also no secret that I like to engage in doorknocking very often to make sure that I stay in touch with the mood of my neighbours in south and east Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EWhen I doorknocked recently in an area that, to be honest, isn\u2019t always very forgiving to the National Party, I can hand on heart say that every person who gave me feedback did so with gratitude for the progress that our Government is making\u2014particularly in law and order and in bringing down interest rates\u2014and encouragement, saying, \u201CKeep going.\u201D Almost every neighbour also referenced the mess that we inherited and told me that they understand it will take a long time to turn the ship of economic recovery around. One beautiful, older, and wiser lady took my arm and, honestly, said to me, \u201CPlease, please keep doing what you are all doing. Stick to your plan.\u201D Two people on the same day said to me, \u201CThank you for making us feel safe again.\u201D\u2014optimum word \u201Cagain\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EMost Kiwis know it\u2019s tough. We know it\u2019s tough, and most Kiwis that I speak to in South and East Auckland know that our Government inherited a decimated economy and know that our Government is working tirelessly to heal it. Our people, like my neighbours in Takanini, are doing it more tough than they ever have because of the reckless, wasteful spending of the former Government, and yet there\u2019s not one tiny notion of remorse from Chris Hipkins and his friends across that side, even in the face of a Treasury report saying that only half of the whopping $66 billion Chris Hipkins oversaw for COVID-19 was actually attributed directly to the pandemic. The other half? Kiwis can take a wild guess. I don\u2019t know, those French backpackers\u2014in heaven. There are a lot of people accumulating a lot of money because of what happened with the other half. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EOur Government is not applying band-aids to the bleeding caused by Labour\u2019s wasteful spending but is actually trying to heal the wound from within, and this takes courage. This takes a spine to do. It takes a spine to adjust tax brackets so that the lowest-income earners can keep more of their wages. For the first time in 14 years, our Government had a spine to do this. It takes spine to really, truly put victims first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252ef4e6c58ae4d28b2d20050adcc8e7a\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf328c1249eb4df38a4c95ee18d2ff30\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the others are laughing\u2014no remorse, no care, and no accountability to put victims first and to crack down on gangs, who plant and cultivate misery in our communities. It takes a spine to ban gang insignia in public so that my neighbours in Takanini can feel safer. It takes a spine to admit that our country is grappling with a real problem with youth offending, and our Government actually stood up and created a category called the young serious offender category. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EIt takes a spine to recognise that the education system is so broken that we\u2019ve failed another generation of tamariki and rangatahi. It takes a spine to say, \u201CDo you know what? We\u2019re turning things around.\u201D We\u2019re making game-changing changes in maths, in English, and in literacy. It takes a spine to be honest about NCEA and say how in many respects it wasn\u2019t preparing our youth for the future. It takes a spine to look at our health system and recognise that it had lost its rightful vision and that patients should come first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EIt takes a spine for this Lebanese wahine to be civil in the face of political props that are brandished in my face every day, reminding me of the massacres that took place in Lebanon, where my wh\u0101nau and my extended wh\u0101nau were killed mercilessly. That\u2019s what it takes, and we have spine on this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022 data-id=\u00226ded8094af9a469eb593c4e2abb3965a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ded8094af9a469eb593c4e2abb3965a\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The economic recovery of New Zealand is here and it\u2019s actually here on the doorsteps of the West Coast. The West Coast is where I visited in my last recess. I had the opportunity to go there with the Hon Mark Patterson about 10 months ago, and now I\u2019ve returned and, gosh, that place is booming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210f49d21680446f5b41658f3a7fb0d3b\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: Gold!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222e7faa1d4f04efe8f8555092fc239bb\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. And I can tell this House, the coasters, they want mining. They want it and they want it now and they are into it. To see what is happening on the ground there on the West Coast is absolutely an eye opener.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EI had the opportunity to go with Development West Coast and look at a number of different projects. It was the first time I got to go to Blackball. I\u2019ve got to say, since the Hon Shane Jones has been there with his megaphone, it must be the new heart, it must be the new place of the New Zealand First Party, because the support there in Blackball is definitely there for the New Zealand First Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224fcb0fea60b4e639e78c1a4c933d067\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not Labour any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022156dded434694a4bbd67acb17e879ca2\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not Labour\u2014it\u2019s swung. I can tell you, they are coming there for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EBut Federation Mining, I went there and saw the Provincial Growth Fund\u2014we had put money into Federation Mining to open up that mine. What is great to see is the success. They\u2019re talking about up to 20 years\u2019 worth of mining just in that one mine. They\u2019re talking about entry-level jobs of six figures\u2014they\u2019re nearly $100,000 jobs just for entry-level workers. The core samples\u2014I got to see those\u2014they are off the chart, the amount of gold, the reefs of gold that they\u2019ve found in that mine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EThe disappointing thing, and something I\u2019ve already vowed to talk to the super fund about here, is the New Zealand Superannuation Fund\u2014they need to get in on these opportunities of the mining on the West Coast. They can\u2019t be hesitant; they can\u2019t be listening to these no sayers. The opportunity is there for the super fund to come in behind some of these projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EAlso the Westland Mineral Sands\u2014I went there with my environmental hat on, the portfolio I hold for the New Zealand First Party. They\u2019re talking about 50-plus years of sand mining. They\u2019re talking about titanium, they\u2019re talking about taking out the garnet, but it\u2019s environmentally friendly. The farmers want it. It recontours the land and it allows the land to be flat so new pasture can be grown. The farmers on the West Coast want to see this; the dairy farmers want to see it. The farmers are saying their paddocks, once the mining\u2019s gone through, are the best paddocks on their farm. It\u2019s great to see in the tourism industries around the West Coast, they\u2019ve seen that waterways, for instance, they\u2019re actually linking up with these mining companies and making partnerships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EWhat a tragedy we\u2019re seeing on the Bathurst Stockton Mine, where you\u2019ve got protesters there up in coal buckets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9938b9d24b243c0bfed39a3590ce5d0\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: Disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8da19121a354c8e9b54302f531c8fae\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s just disgraceful, outside the ANZ bank, stopping the consented mining operations. This nonsense needs to be stopped. The police need to go in with trespass notices and get rid of these people out of these places.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EDuring the trip, I also got to see the development around housing in the Ball Developments that\u2019s happening on the outskirts of Greymouth. They\u2019re talking hundreds of new homes and new commercial activity happening there. We\u2019ve had investment on the coast through New Zealand First in the port facilities with the slipways and new fishing jobs. Great to see the Westport Deep Sea Fishing School while I was there\u2014seeing that vocational way of getting people into the fishing industry, more jobs. The mayors: Helen Lash, Tania Gibson, Jamie Cleine; the regional council: Peter Haddock\u2014they are positive. They are talking up New Zealand First. Our policies on the ground, on the West Coast, are making a difference. The economic change on the coast, it is going to lead the recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EWe are talking about a lot of debt that this past Government has wrapped up, but the West Coast are going to be the first ones that will come up and help pay some of that back. It is great to see it on the ground. The coast is alive with economic activity. New Zealand First policies are working on the ground, and I can\u2019t wait to see what that is going to deliver in the next couple of years. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022224fb0c273934d2a97f3338204b71227\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022224fb0c273934d2a97f3338204b71227\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise as the member of Parliament for Southland to speak in this general debate. We have heard a lot of negative things over the last year or so, and there\u2019s a lot of social media that people watch, and things look tough. What we need to do is put this in frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand, we have faced the deepest recession since 1991. It\u2019s the deepest recession for 34\u00A0years. The Treasury released a report last week saying the last Government spent too much, against official advice, harming the economy. There\u2019s no question that money needed to be spent during the pandemic, but they spent too much, against the official advice, harming the economy. This Government came into power, facing the deepest recession since 1991, and it\u2019s had that job to fix, which is a very difficult one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EBut hope is coming. In the South Island, we are outperforming the North at the moment. I don\u2019t say this to say anything against the North. The North is a very important part of New Zealand. But hope\u2014turn your eyes towards the South, and, in fact, turn your eyes to the bottom of the South, toward Otago, toward Southland. Our economy\u2014the most recent Kiwibank regional data showed that we are growing very strongly. Why is that? It is the primary sector. We have got high prices for our primary products, for our farmers, for our agricultural sector; for milk; for dairy; for sheep and beef; for our viticulture, our ag, and horticulture sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThen, in the South Island, we have an incredibly strong conservation sector. This is important for two reasons. This is important for biodiversity, and this is important for the economy. A big reason why New Zealand does so well in the tourism market is because people want to come here because of our incredible region, but we need money to be able to take care of that. How do we do that? We get visitors coming to New Zealand to spend foreign exchange in New Zealand with our people. We have a conservation Minister who is working to move the concessions framework to make it easier to do that so we can spend more money on that incredibly important part of our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ENot only that\u2014in tourism, if you look at Queenstown Lakes District and Mackenzie Country and our neighbours in W\u0101naka, my neighbour Miles Anderson, our numbers are well ahead of pre-pandemic numbers. We have grown incredibly strongly. That is another great economic opportunity that\u2019s coming out of our region. A great indicator. With that does come some challenge. New infrastructure is needed to make it a great place for locals to live and for visitors to come to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe first place in the South Island that has had a regional deal confirmed that is going to be negotiated with this Government is the Central Otago Lakes region. So it is a fantastic opportunity for our region so that we can address those challenges, we can get all the players in the room, we can get the central government and the local government working well together to address those issues\u2014to address the transport, the health, the electrification, value capture that\u2019s going to really turn the dial, and some really creative solutions are on the table for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWe also have some really exciting things happening. If you look at Great South, they have a regional opportunities snapshot of some of the things that are being proposed across Southland\u2014agriculture, aquaculture, tourism, space opportunities. Not many people think of space opportunities when they think of the South, but, like our great space Minister, Judith Collins, knows, we have a very strong ground space presence in Southland. So there\u2019s incredible opportunities. There are inland ports which are being proposed to be built\u2014significant money being expended because of the opportunities that are being seen there. There\u2019s incredible opportunity in agriculture. In energy, we have a lot of energy, but we have a lot of opportunity to create more energy. There\u2019s one of the biggest energy providers in the country. There\u2019s people looking at data centres, wind farms, and a whole lot more to add to our existing strengths in the aquaculture, tourism, horticulture, and much more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just touch on the Otago Central Lakes. The current population is 80,000; its visitor population can be the same on a busy day, so our peak day population is 170,000. This is a place that is growing up. It is becoming the newest potential city in New Zealand, with a projected population of over 300,000 by 2054. It\u2019s a place of huge opportunity. We\u2019re growing and we want to spread that through the country. Eyes to the South to look to the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f8d7fb2144e04bc2b7da42cb6c763d64\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b15c0e946e9401094cd42dc39287f30\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd80162d96874a6d83d89f4a6c8dd178\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd80162d96874a6d83d89f4a6c8dd178\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the sitting of the House be extended into tomorrow morning for consideration in committee of the Resource Management (Consenting and Other System Changes) Amendment Bill, the Local Government (Water Services) Bill, and the Hauraki Gulf / T\u012Bkapa Moana Marine Protection Bill, the second reading of the Public Works (Critical Infrastructure) Amendment Bill, and the Customs (Levies and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, and the interrupted debate on the third reading of the Privacy Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022159b5c7ee8ed4d86810b6768c60c3221\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb5443b617384729812ff52c3e13f65f\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022948bca92892e4ddf8792c2fc627247c2\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00227600c29afa5d4ace8d38b8095696ec39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227600c29afa5d4ace8d38b8095696ec39\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Resource Management (Consenting and Other System Changes) Amendment Bill, the Local Government (Water Services) Bill, and the Hauraki Gulf / T\u012Bkapa Moana Marine Protection Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d6e046b4050432ab52e089820cd006c\u0022\u003EResource Management (Consenting and Other System Changes) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022588755619071428e8c36f03c5729e578\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000429\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 12 August.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a33f74a6731240c0b9db9e9e855778c1\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to schedules of principal Act and amendments to other enactments (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220b7cc2852cae46f888af0031e1f2114e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b7cc2852cae46f888af0031e1f2114e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: We come first to the Resource Management (Consenting and Other System Changes) Amendment Bill. When the committee was last considering the bill, we were on the debate on Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 70 to 81 and proposed new clauses 82 to 90\u2014amendments to the schedules of the principal Act and amendments to other enactments\u2014and Schedules 1 and 2. The question is again that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022407b8225a9a94da990a0874236147c2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022407b8225a9a94da990a0874236147c2c\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to start by going right to the back page of the amendment and then to the start of Part 2. This, at the back, is about transitional provisions for natural hazards and rules that control fishing. These are new sections 59 and 60 of new Part 8. What this is saying is that there will be immediate legal effect of natural hazard rules. This is a very good thing, because we have a problem in New Zealand where the rules for natural hazards are not strong enough and the council does not have enough ways to stop people from doing things in hazardous areas. We\u2019re very much in support of the immediate legal effect of natural hazard rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen there are the rules that control fishing. We\u2019ve talked a little bit about the relationship between the Fisheries Act and the Resource Management Act, and I\u2019m not going to go into that now, except to ask the question that, given that in Part 1, in a part that we didn\u2019t actually get to cover or we covered in some part, the Minister now says no, or the Act will say no, to new plans. No new plans can happen unless there\u2019s an exemption. I realise that one of those exemptions relates to natural hazards, but I can\u2019t see anything on fisheries. I\u2019m wondering why it is that we are even having transitional provisions about things to do with changes to fisheries rules when there cannot be any new plans until December 2027. I note that this block on new plans until December 2027 is something that was put in the amendment that was released yesterday, so this may not have been considered. I would like to know if there has been any analysis of whether it will be able for there to be rules that control fishing\u2014whether there will be any plans that will be able to do this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, on that natural hazards piece\u2014acknowledging that there is an exemption for natural hazards, but often a plan change will combine a number of different factors\u2014has there been any analysis of whether or not there were plans in progress that did more than natural hazards that might now be stopped because of the block on plans to 2027? That\u2019s the question there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIt also relates back to clause 70 and the \u201CPre-notification requirement for proposed rule that controls fishing\u201D. If we have this block on plans, why do we need this now? Surely, with the change that we have where we can\u2019t have any plans until the end of 2027, that demolishes the whole need for any of these fisheries provisions, and they would be better put into what the Minister calls Resource Management Act stage 3, because there won\u2019t be an opportunity for those rules to progress, unless he makes a special exemption, before then. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2b1526bc19d41668757abd48aab634b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2b1526bc19d41668757abd48aab634b\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Last night, I put some questions to the Minister responsible for RMA Reform about my own area, because it is actually the most impacted by the schedule in the new amendment, which is about the building up of high-rise around the train stations in Mount Albert. I told him that I live in one of those areas; I\u2019m absolutely directly impacted by that move. I have had many emails and consultations, in my role as the MP in that area, with people who are concerned, and I have had emails today from groups of people who are concerned because they can\u2019t actually ask questions in this process because it\u2019s all happening so fast. There are some of those concerns that I would accept might have been\u2014they could actually have had their fears allayed if there was a process by which they had an opportunity to ask questions, but there simply hasn\u2019t been the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EMy first question is: why not? Why aren\u2019t we having a consultation process over this at all? I\u2019m not into consultation for its own sake, but some of the questions that I\u2019ve had have, quite frankly, been ones that have worried me in terms of people\u2019s understanding of what\u2019s happening. For example, one of the questions I got was: is the Government going to buy all of the land in the Baldwin area at that train station? The Minister might look at me and make that face, but that was a question I got, that there was a public works issue here. That\u2019s because the general public are not here all the time and they don\u2019t know what the nature of this enabling legislation is. I want to ask the question as a demonstration of what the issues actually are out there in terms of concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also a concern about\u2014and I accept that the Minister talked last night about how long this would take, but that\u2019s a common question: how long will it be? There is also a concern that the areas that they\u2019re in might end up looking like Hong Kong. It\u2019s not going to happen and it\u2019s very unlikely to happen, but those are questions that constituents are asking in this area, because, in fact, they have lived there for a long time, and this will enable the building of 10-plus storeys. I just wanted to make sure that that was on the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got some specific questions about the impact of those buildings based on those conversations. One of those questions is about the issue of the building of level crossings, and that is because in the Auckland Transport plan there has been a plan to build over certain crossings, but that\u2019s actually out in another area, whereas here we have an intensification of housing around a corridor in the railway line. Surely, it makes sense that that would get the priority in terms of enabling those train stations. Have there been discussions about aligning the intensification with the upgrading of those rail lines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EAnother question I\u2019ve got is with regard to the quality of the builds and whether there are any controls. You can understand why people are worried about that. On Morningside Drive, we have several apartment blocks which are not 10 storeys but they are multi-storey. They are right next to the railway line and they have issues with fractures in some of those buildings because of the shaking of the railway track. What kind of intention is there in this legislation to make sure that the buildings that go up are quality buildings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EAnother issue is height to boundary. Now, it may be that this is the enabling legislation and the Minister might just say, \u201CWell, all that\u2019s going to happen somewhere else.\u201D, but height to boundary is a big deal. In the plan in the inner city, when we were looking at intensifying in the inner city, there were actually view shafts that are built into that intensification so that people get enough light and they get views, and it makes the whole thing much more of a quality build and we end up in a city that\u2019s better. Is there that kind of intention here? If we\u2019re going to enable the building, will there be height to boundary issues involved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EOne issue that comes up frequently is: what\u2019s the projected intensification here? How many houses\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb02d068ae0e4be9ae50c52c0dd7117e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb02d068ae0e4be9ae50c52c0dd7117e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Helen White for her questions, which I think I can deal with in order. She had lots of emails of concerns saying, \u201CWhy is this going so quickly?\u201D Well, it\u2019s actually not, to be honest. I mean, Auckland has been required to upzone since 2022, and here we are, in 2025, and there\u2019s a variety of reasons for that, some of which I canvassed last night. The law allows them to upzone but doesn\u2019t let them downzone. They need to do that as a response to the floods\u2014that\u2019s fair enough. But the council itself has taken too long, frankly, on some of these issues, so Parliament has acted, with the agreement of the council\u2014so this is not some Parliament unilaterally acting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESomeone said the other day\u2014well, it was an Auckland City councillor, actually. He said, \u201COh, you\u2019re bullying Auckland Council.\u201D, and I said, \u201CWell, it\u2019s a bit of a strange situation when you put out a joint press release with the mayor about what Parliament\u2019s doing.\u201D It\u2019s a slightly strange situation and a weird definition of \u201Cbullying\u201D to me, but anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the legitimate concerns that the member is raising, and there will be an opportunity. This is not Parliament micromanaging every single street next to Baldwin Street Station or Mount Albert Station; this is Parliament, essentially, making the council undergo a process around a replacement plan change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re replacing plan change 78 with a new plan change which will be required to give effect to what is in this piece of legislation around the City Rail Link stations that are listed in the Act. But that\u2019s not the end of the process. The council will be required to notify that by October, and notification sets off the plan change process. After that, it\u2019ll be public discussions and there\u2019ll be an independent hearings panel and there\u2019ll be all sorts of opportunities for the public to engage, and I\u2019d encourage her to encourage her constituents to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second question was: is the Government going to buy all the land? No, we\u2019re not going to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThirdly: will it look like Hong Kong? No. Anyone who\u2019s been to Hong Kong will, I think, find that that would be somewhat out of keeping with Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBut will it mean more apartments by train stations, for which the Government is spending billions of dollars building train stations? Yes, it will mean more apartments by train stations, and I don\u2019t know many Aucklanders who don\u2019t think that one of the necessary responses to a $5.5 billion, or probably closer to $6 billion, metro underground rail in Auckland should be to go, \u201CDo you know what? Here\u2019s a great thing: let\u2019s have single-storey family-zoned houses next to these hundreds-of-millions-of-dollars expensive railway stations.\u201D That does not seem like a particularly rational outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258b0c812f15a4bf6903f8c9506deabff\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not the question. Just engage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfae160a00d04b5891cfdd19d3339ab7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228748de2ecaa0464580849e4700b461f8\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Just engage with the actual questions. It wasn\u2019t about single-zone houses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247271c753ce545f78a0b11a5f3779f89\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, let\u2019s not have chat across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bb8e40e7029410da77638b3ab03d548\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, it\u2019s a legitimate point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b15363a4fc534a19b92acbda5a867114\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, and I\u2019ll give them a call to make that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bb51c9e4faf43c897de39394465aeef\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m answering the question. So it\u2019s not going to be Hong Kong, but we are going to see more apartments, OK? Actually, the Government wants that, and I reckon that, actually, the Labour Party wants it too, apparently\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224da9656d96804a17a5468c6139478d98\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221762eae7d3b4de6a78aaa1f65a1b848\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, there you go. Rachel Brooking says that they do. I reckon that the Greens want it, I reckon the Government wants it, and I actually reckon most Aucklanders want it too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EYep, there are some people who don\u2019t necessarily like the idea that cities change, but guess what? The world changes, society changes, and, actually, young Aucklanders deserve the opportunity to have housing choice. We need small apartments, we need big apartments, we need small terraced houses, we need medium terraced houses, we need big McMansions, we need smaller McMansions, we need\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5e4179bd8664186908d7f75509726b7\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: I choo-choo-choose Bish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226efee4ce0f974b8e8dcfa2ed913f0bf2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: OK, yeah\u2014maybe that, too. We need suburban greenfields houses, we need\u2014the whole point is we need housing choice. All housing is good, and we need to stop turning up our noses and saying \u201COh, we\u2019d like this, but not that. That\u2019s OK, but not that, and I\u2019m all good with that, but not that.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf25a986da76414aa4c9c2b934227fb3\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re being disingenuous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205ad27f95def4695b30f43c44c2ea50c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, I\u2019m not. I\u2019m answering the question. She asked me if it was going to be like Hong Kong, and the answer is that it\u2019s not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFourthly, she asked whether there has been an attempt to link intensification along railway lines, and the answer is yes. That is the purpose of this, which is we\u2019re building the City Rail Link, and our view is it makes sense to upzone around the City Rail Link stations in the same way it makes sense to upzone around the National Policy Statement on Urban Development provisions, which is the existing railway lines, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFinally, she asked about build quality. That is not a matter dealt with under the Resource Management Act (RMA). It\u2019s not an effect, and it\u2019s not an externality dealt with under the RMA. Build quality is dealt with under the Building Act, which, fortunately, is not something that is dealt with under the RMA. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220a2e0bffb65b4b298b98292382549b86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a2e0bffb65b4b298b98292382549b86\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll let Helen White finish her line of questioning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00226309e3f1380e43899c8e4392c70ac709\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226309e3f1380e43899c8e4392c70ac709\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister, for answering the questions. I think it\u2019s really important that we treat people who are actually the ones who will pay the price\u2014and they will be in these areas\u2014with some respect. They\u2019re entitled to be concerned about what\u2019s going on and to have answers to those questions, and it doesn\u2019t mean that they don\u2019t, too, agree that our city needs to intensify along its rail lines. In fact, that is the frequent thing that people in my area tell me\u2014that they do not want to be cast in that light, but they would like to know what\u2019s going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EFor example, last night I asked the Minister about schools in the area. It is absolutely important that we address the need for communities that are being intensified to have facilities that are actually going to meet the needs of the people who move in. Now, I told the Minister that in that area, Mount Albert Grammar School has 3,500 people in it. It is very important that we have a plan for schools, and it is perfectly OK for me to ask the Minister how this fits within the plan and what conversations he\u2019s had when he\u2019s put together this amendment about the need to support this with infrastructure like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EAnother thing that I am frequently asked about is green space, because things like the all-weather sports fields are incredibly important if you\u2019re intensifying and you want affordable housing not to be something that\u2019s second class. It should be first-rate. We need all-weather sports fields in our area desperately because there just aren\u2019t enough. So those are two things that I want to highlight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI also want to ask some very specific questions about the nature of the actual provision, so I\u2019d like to turn to those now. I want to ask about\u2014this is clause 4 of new Schedule 3C, which is to be inserted by Schedule 1 of the bill. It\u2019s on page 71, and it\u2019s a really sensible little thing. It crosses the bridge. It\u2019s specific about clause 4, but it\u2019s also something that I\u2019m frequently asked, which is what\u2019s \u201Cwalkable\u201D. These are enabling more intensification in a walkable area. From what I can see, if somebody has drawn a circle and it\u2019s like anything within a 10-minute walk zone, it\u2019s walkable, but am I right about that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhat is walkable, because I can see, in my own area, that St Lukes mall has got a huge amount of land in that area. Some of it falls in that circle and some of it doesn\u2019t, and yet that actually seems to be an area where the housing has been bought up by the mall. It isn\u2019t particularly character or anything, and it seems to be something where it\u2019s very connected with the shopping, as well as the train station, but it seems to be arbitrary as to where the line is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIs there in the definition here a definition of what\u2019s walkable, or is it a matter of nuance? That\u2019s something that I\u2019m often asked about. Is there any room for nuance on this plan? I take on board that the Minister gave me genuine answers last night about, for example, the advantages of this plan when it comes to areas that flood, because this will allow more nuance in terms of choosing areas so that they are not ones that are likely to lead to a risk of flood. I take it on board that they may be answers to these questions. I\u2019m just trying to get them on the record so that my constituents know what they\u2019re in for, and that\u2019s what\u2019s important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI also wanted to ask about the decision that we have in clause 4\u2014and it\u2019s clause 4(1)(b)(i)(A) and (B) that I\u2019m talking about. It\u2019s a decision on wording which says \u201C(i) heights and densities commensurate with the greater of\u2014(A) demand for housing and business use in those locations; or (B) the amount of housing and business use that is appropriate given the level of accessibility to commercial activity and community services in those locations;\u201D and it goes on. What I would like to know is why is there a \u201Cgreater of\u2014\u201D and then the \u201Cor\u201D there, when it seems to me that the logical part of that is subsubparagraph (B). It\u2019s the amount of demand for housing and business use that is appropriate, given the level of accessibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESurely that\u2019s the test: can we do this, and will it work for our populations? But we have a \u201Cgreater of\u201D which\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022b336220b4801449a83520f221a9415e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b336220b4801449a83520f221a9415e5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E I can answer those three questions. They\u2019re legitimate questions, and I wasn\u2019t meaning to imply that the member\u2019s questions were bad or anything. I was genuinely trying to answer them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn terms of schools, the short answer is yes. We will take account of school populations as they rise and fall, in the same way that the ministry does that right now. Is the ministry perfect at it? No. I think all members of Parliament would have examples in their own constituencies of schools in which the ministry resolutely insists that no new classrooms are required, only for a big batch of five-year-olds to turn up and start working their way through the system and the ministry finds that, actually, more classrooms are required. Equally, there are schools in which there\u2019s vast vacant classrooms that are empty, which is not a particularly rational use of land. The ministry\u2019s not perfect at it\u2014and actually, that\u2019s partly why the Government\u2019s creating a new school property agency, to get better at that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5ec5205279f4b36b41e028cb576030f\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: So you\u2019re going to sell the land?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022555581607401411f87bf3befd47d6f5a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: No, I didn\u2019t say that. But there\u2019s other ways to make use of school land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn terms of the second question she asked about the definition of \u201Cwalkable\u201D\u2014it\u2019s a good question. The answer is: it depends. The National Policy Statement on Urban Development does not define it but gives an example of 800 to 1,200 metres as to what \u201Cwalkable\u201D means. The honest answer is, it depends, right\u2014on the topography of a particular area; on a particular community\u2014what \u201Cwalkable\u201D means. The Wellington independent hearings panel went through a long and convoluted task in order to work out what \u201Cwalkable\u201D meant, and they decided that \u201Cwalkable\u201D in Wellington meant different things to what it meant in other cities, because here in Wellington, we have hills\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285a7d16d8e054b689ad7de645c9052dd\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Like Dunedin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c59f214e6794424925e9111d86a1a84\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Dunedin\u2019s got hills as well, but they don\u2019t have housing density issues in Dunedin to quite the same extent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ee9a20422744ecbae9449dd6cf96536\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: We need them on Carroll Street.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ace91860fb6543ca8ff6421a207ce710\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if only we did; that would be a great thing. But the short answer is: it depends. One of the issues the Government is looking at through phase three of Resource Management Act reform is to provide a bit more clarity about what \u201Cwalkable\u201D means. But there are pros and cons of doing that, because the more specific you get, the less accommodating of local circumstances you are, as well. So there are costs and benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI am, however, also keen to avoid interminable debates about, you know, is a particular area 923\u00A0metres, as the crow flies, from a train station \u201Cwalkable\u201D; and is 1,010 metres \u201Cwalkable\u201D, because there happens to be something else on the way and you\u2019ve got to go over a bridge, and\u2014just ridiculous debates. So, anyway, there are pros and cons either side, but the short answer is that for this bill \u201Cwalkable\u201D is up to the council, and the point is they will take into account local circumstances, and I would expect that local councillors in Auckland Council and members of the local board would engage with local MPs, like the MP for Mt Albert, when it comes to these issues. The answer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df1af913ea6845feaab5655429c347c8\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Daniel Newman\u2014great councillor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022922776d4d19d4ef789e5b015f7a74be9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I mean, let\u2019s not start listing councillors. We\u2019ll be here all night. There\u2019s lots of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to her third question about \u201Cthe greater of\u201D in relation to \u201Cenable, within at least a walkable catchment \u2026 (A) heights and densities commensurate with the greater of \u2026 demand for housing and business use \u2026 or (B) the amount of housing and business use that is appropriate given the level of accessibility\u201D\u2014I don\u2019t see the issue here. The point is, we need the maximum amount of housing that we can get, and so you either go for \u201Cdemand for housing and business use in those locations\u201D, or \u201Cthe amount of housing that\u2019s appropriate given the level of accessibility to commercial activity and community services in those locations\u201D. I think it\u2019s relatively straightforward. Then it sets a bottom line of at least 10 storeys in relation to Baldwin and Mount Albert, and 15 storeys in relation to the other three stations. I think it\u2019s all relatively straightforward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u002290c7eabd739d414fb9f17a9658eaf281\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290c7eabd739d414fb9f17a9658eaf281\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. I want to take it back to the moana and look at Part 2, clause 70 amending Schedule 1, and the pre-notification requirement for rules regarding fishing, noting that the director-general must regard these matters and consult with Te Ohu Kai Moana on the proposed decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m wanting to ask the Minister in terms of these proposed rules for regional coastal plans, knowing that within our own rohe, in Tai Tokerau, it provides provision for us as local iwi to have coastal management within our own tribal rohe\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b1d15a18b9c4b93a94af2640396ced2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Have you got the page reference?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d4dd9b04563417f81215df2f9e59474\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: That is page 48. It\u2019s just Part 2, clause 70, \u201CSchedule 1 amended\u201D to insert new section 4B, \u201CPre-notification requirement for proposed rule that controls fishing.\u201D Kia ora. It\u2019s relating to regional coastal planning. Within our rohe I understand that we as iwi have allowance of rights for coastal management within our tribal rohe. Within that tribal rohe, that could have statutory acknowledgments, we could have Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act (MACA) claimants, hap\u016B, iwi, and customary rights, as well as commercial. Within these proposed amendments, I note that the director-general is only required to have consulted with Te Ohu Kai Moana on their proposed decision for extension and around these proposed rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EMy question is: is this a narrowing of who the director-general needs to engage with in terms of iwi M\u0101ori and regional coastal planning? As tangata whenua, we have had provision for engagement and input. Te Ohu Kai Moana is a really important stakeholder in the commercial space as voice for iwi, but I do worry that within the proposed amendments it ignores statutory acknowledgments, which are upheld through Treaty settlements. For myself in Te Tai Tokerau, we can look at Te Rarawa, Ng\u0101i Takoto, Te Aup\u014Duri, Ng\u0101ti Manuhiri, Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga\u2014a whole range that have statutory acknowledgments within their tribal rohes, but they\u2019re not provided for in this. Also, we have MACA claimants, takutai moana claimants, who are in the process\u2014in hearings and also researching their claims to affirm their ongoing mana takutai moana. Then, of course, in the hau k\u0101inga you have hap\u016B and iwi who execute their rights and interests on the daily for customary purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI want to understand from the Minister: are we just narrowing the M\u0101ori engagement for these purposes just to a commercial lens or are we going to be a bit more consistent? In other parts of the legislation, it\u2019s iwi authorities, it\u2019s MACA claimants, it\u2019s rohe moana, it\u2019s Mana Whakahono\u2014a big list of M\u0101ori groups to engage with. But in this one, it\u2019s just Te Ohu Kai Moana, so it\u2019s quite peculiar, whereas we have a bigger list of M\u0101ori for the director-general to engage with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ERegional coastal plans are important for M\u0101ori. They are important for our entire community, and I\u2019m reviewing just my own local regional coastal plan for Tai Tokerau tangata whenua, who are important, are upheld, and I just wonder about why we are only talking to Te Ohu Kai Moana for this purpose, for the director-general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00229298ae49de1e475f85cfdf31a5872231\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229298ae49de1e475f85cfdf31a5872231\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m advised that this doesn\u2019t constrain. This is a specific step that will occur after a council has already gone through a plan process in which it will be required to consult with relevant iwi as part of the process of developing that plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u002200d5adc4ba204fe98d1a96e8a7efa6c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200d5adc4ba204fe98d1a96e8a7efa6c6\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s great to be back on this bill, which has such significant implications. I want to really clearly point out where I\u2019m at in the bill and how that actually differs from where my colleague was, because it is on the same clause, which is clause 70. My colleague H\u016Bhana Lyndon was specifically talking about new section 4B(2)(b), and I have questions about the rest of it, which have not yet been touched on, so I\u2019m really keen for some answers from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThis clause is really about addressing a lot of the marine biodiversity concerns that we heard a lot of at the select committee stage, not only from environmental groups but also from local government and a number of individuals. If a regional council does then intend to propose a regional coastal plan rule that controls fishing in the area, to what scope are those controls on fishing? Is this applying simply to commercial fishing? Is it recreational? Is it customary? Is it the whole entire lot? Now, why I\u2019m interested in that is because, further, it talks about this concurrence rule where \u201Cthe Director-General must have regard only to the matters described in section 32(2A).\u201D Sorry, these are on page\u00A012, so it refers back here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, these are quite specific and directional in terms of where the extent of fishing can actually be carried out. It talks about \u201Coverall impacts\u201D as well that need to be assessed and the director-general having to think about these things. What I\u2019m interested in understanding is what actual tests apply here when the director-general is making these considerations. My understanding of the concurrence rule is that they must be satisfied that the rule does not have undue effects on fishing. Now, what species, for example, and what scope of fishing and the species that are in the ecosystem that could be construed as fishable\u2014what species does that include? When we talk about the impact on fishing, what kind of impact are we talking about? When you think of a blanket ban on fishing, then it\u2019s absolutely clear that there will be impacts there. But what is the scope and the percentage? Is it like a 1 percent reduction or a 5 percent reduction in terms of the impact on fishing? I\u2019m really interested to hear from the Minister what this actually refers to in practice and what the assessment would be. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002254f8df44453d4bac893ab4b811cab6e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254f8df44453d4bac893ab4b811cab6e1\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks very much to the member for those questions. Quite simply, clause 70 relates to all species and all aspects of fishing. So, hopefully, that gives the member some clarity. Obviously, the quicker we can progress this bill, the quicker we can get on to the Hauraki Gulf bill, which is obviously a really important bill that we want to be talking about, I\u2019m sure, across this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00222c9a7aa9eeb748a9a911012863fd01fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c9a7aa9eeb748a9a911012863fd01fd\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. There are lots of bills to talk about and, of course, there\u2019s a whole other bill to get to before the Hauraki Gulf bill as well, and I hope the Minister will take these questions seriously. Now, noting, of course, that my last question has not been answered, and that was what was the point of having transitional provisions for making new rules if there are going to be no new plans\u2014that was that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll go through Part 2, and I\u2019ve got a number of questions. On page 69 of Amendment Paper 347, there are new clauses 87, 88, 89, and 90, which are about \u201CAmendments to Regional Plan: Water for Otago\u201D. There is a requirement in new clause 90 that \u201COtago Regional Council must notify amendments\u201D, and my question here is very simple. We\u2019ve covered in Part 2 the interesting situation that we\u2019re in, now that Otago Regional Council has to make rule changes because this Government stopped them from notifying their new plan last year. So my question here is simply: does he see the irony in now legislating for the Otago Regional Council to specifically notify amendments when just last year this House considered, in the committee of the whole House stage with a last-minute Amendment Paper, the stopping of that council from doing its job and notifying its plan? That\u2019s one new question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m flicking through the Auckland things, and I asked a question about that yesterday, but I would like now to go to the process for Christchurch City Council and its withdrawal of plan change\u00A014. This starts at around page 76. My first question on Christchurch is related to the definitions in clause 10(7) in new Schedule 3C, in Schedule 1 of the bill, of \u201C30 years of adjusted demand\u201D and \u201Cfeasible\u201D. I know that these are terms that have come around in various different urban intensification documents, but in making this policy decision to provide Christchurch City with this way to withdraw plan change 14, is the Minister aware of any advice on what the current supply situation is in Christchurch and what sort of gap there is between what currently exists and what would be 30 years of adjusted demand, and then what is feasible? So, just there, if he can comment on the advice that he\u2019s received, and if he wants to make any comment on what his expectations are for what will happen in Christchurch with the withdrawal of plan change 14.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, on page 79, there\u2019s a mention of section 77I, which I traversed yesterday in relation to Auckland Council. If plan change 14 is withdrawn and there is an alternative, then in clause 13(6) of new Schedule 3C, \u201CChristchurch City Council may make the requirements in policy 3 less enabling of development than provided for by policy 3 if authorised to do so under section 77I.\u201D, and section 77I is the section, I believe, that goes through the different qualifying matters for intensification. We had a discussion yesterday, in relation to Auckland, of whether those qualifying matters had to be site-specific. My question for Christchurch is the same, which is: does that application of the qualifying matters here have to be site-specific, or can it be broader? This is because of various different conversations about character areas. A qualifying matter is something that is in Part 2 of the Act, which includes historic/heritage, but not amenity values that don\u2019t make it into section 6 of the Resource Management Act, which is \u201CMatters of national importance\u201D. Then, Mr Chair, I might leave it there, and I\u2019ll come back in a second. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002260471df343e54e48ac474ca8dbf0012e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260471df343e54e48ac474ca8dbf0012e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much to the member the Hon Rachel Brooking for those questions. In regards to the Otago Regional Council question of clause\u00A090, there is an exemption process which Otago Regional Council could have used. In effect, that clause there is providing a short-term fix to allow them to move to a new system. I acknowledge that some of that is repetition from previous answers that the Minister responsible for RMA Reform has provided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the transitional provisions for fish, again, that is providing provisions that may be used if the Minister chooses to do so in regards to plan stock. In summary, that aspect there is really ensuring that we\u2019ve got clarity and confidence for fishery stakeholders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022820fc46ac4274776bdd343684e3a1011\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022820fc46ac4274776bdd343684e3a1011\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Sorry, I know we can cause confusion for you all. I want to turn to a different part of Part 2, also clause 70, relating to the streamlined planning process as it relates to matters of heritage. Just starting at page 13 and, just to be clear, looking at the commentary from the Environment Committee, there are some notes there off the back of submissions that wanted some more direction and guidance around this part of the bill. I\u2019m just talking to pages 53 and then jumping back to page 51. These parts amend Part 5 of Schedule\u00A01 of the Resource Management Act (RMA). It specifically talks to, as I mentioned, the streamlined planning process as it relates to heritage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIf you look at page 53, replacement clause 84(3), \u201CAn SPP panel must have particular regard to the responsible Minister\u2019s statement of expectations included in the direction given under clause 78 and, if the direction is a kind described in clause 78(3B), the panel must also have particular regard to the criteria in that clause.\u201D Now, I\u2019m just going to come to ask questions about the wording of \u201Cparticular regard\u201D and \u201Ccriteria.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThen, if you look back at 51, you\u2019ll see (3B) noted there way down the page: \u201CIf the direction relates to the removal, or enabling the removal, of heritage protection from buildings\u201D. I\u2019ll skip through to paragraphs (a), (b), (c), (d)\u2014it talks about: \u201Cthe following criteria: (a) heritage significance: (b) physical condition, including degree of seismic risk: (c) current or proposed use of the building or structure and the economic viability of any proposed use: (d) whether the owner agrees to the removal of the heritage protection.\u201D I have some questions to the Minister responsible for RMA Reform, because this would sit under a direction that would be included in the Minister\u2019s statement of expectation, as it relates to the existing Part 5 of Schedule 1 of the RMA. I\u2019m interested in whether the Minister has considered, firstly, what hierarchy could potentially be imposed on those four criteria as their hierarchy, in terms of the ones that are of most importance. That\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe second question that I\u2019ve got is that if you look across page 53 again\u2014sorry I was jumping back before between those two pages\u2014where it says, \u201Cmust also have particular regard to\u201D, is there a definition of \u201Cparticular regard\u201D? Like, what does that actually mean the Minister needs to consider in order to be able to include that within the letter of expectation and the direction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThirdly, will there be definitions provided anywhere for these four criteria? The reason I ask this question is that, for example, some of this could be subjective, potentially. I see the Minister nodding, so that\u2019s why I thought I was going to ask some questions, because it could be useful to have some exchange here. I might just seek a further call just to round out my question, because I\u2019ve only got a minute and a half to go. For example, looking at heritage significance, that could be quite subjective\u2014what is the heritage significance? The \u201Cphysical condition, including degree of seismic risk\u201D is potentially less subjective, because you\u2019ve got the New Building Standard, so that might be more easy to determine. And \u201C(c) current or proposed use of the building or structure and the economic viability of any proposed use\u201D, again, could have elements of being subjective if you get different economic analysis provided by different stakeholders around the use of a building; but also \u201C(d)\u00A0whether the owner agrees to the removal of the heritage protection.\u201D What I guess would concern me is that if you had a building with a heritage protection that did have, say, high significance but was in very poor physical condition, and there wasn\u2019t an obvious use for the building, but the owner didn\u2019t want to do anything about it\u2014now, that, I would suggest, could be unusual. Often, owners in this situation do want to do something about the building but can\u2019t. But what if the owner didn\u2019t? How would you weigh up the criteria and how they relate with each other? I\u2019m quite keen to hear from the Minister about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe final question I have is around whether the Minister would actually consider putting any further instruments through regulation around those four criteria so that if\u2014Mr Chair, I\u2019ll just seek a tiny piece of the next call just to finish off\u2014whether the Minister would say, \u201CWell, actually, these four criteria actually, perhaps, do need some further definition, do need some more information provided around the four criteria, how they will be considered by the Minister, whether there is a hierarchy of those four criteria in terms of their importance.\u201D Also, what exactly does have \u201Cparticular regard to\u201D actually mean in the context of the Minister making the decision through a letter of expectation? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6bdb1c5e8584b0381ced14a742eb9ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6bdb1c5e8584b0381ced14a742eb9ef\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Those are all legitimate, reasonable questions. In answer to them, no, there\u2019s no hierarchy of criteria in clause 78(3B) in Schedule 1. They are equal, for want of a better phrase. I\u2019m not trying to trifle with the member, but \u201Cparticular regard\u201D just means regard that is particular. It\u2019s just a higher standard than having regard to something. It just means you have to have a particular, specific regard, so it\u2019s like a higher intensity of regard, shall we say. You know, at some level, words just mean what they are. \u201CParticular regard\u201D is used throughout the Resource Management Act (RMA) at various points; in fact, it\u2019s used throughout statute more at various points about, you know, what Ministers and decision makers have to do. So it\u2019s just a higher standard than \u201Chave regard to\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe member\u2019s right about the criteria, that it\u2019s a mixture of subjective and objective\u2014I mean, welcome to heritage law, welcome to heritage value judgments that people have. One person\u2019s great heritage building is another person\u2019s eyesore. That is part of the challenge with this vexed area of heritage. We\u2019re not intending to put in place any more instruments for regulation relating to this. This is what it is, for the moment. I will say, though, that we\u2019re having a good look at heritage generally, in the context of the replacement legislation to the RMA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis clause came about, to be honest, largely because of the Gordon Wilson flats. Now, we\u2019ve decided to deal with the Gordon Wilson flats, you know, in its own holus-bolus, slightly unusual, legislated demolition way. But leaving that aside, the genesis for this was actually the Gordon Wilsons. It\u2019s not just Gordon Wilson, but there\u2019s a range of other buildings\u2014in Wellington but also other parts of the country\u2014in which people are pretty fired up about the fact that, yep, they might be heritage-listed, but they\u2019re in bad conditions, they\u2019ve often got seismic risk, and it\u2019s not economic to restore them. Everything\u2019s economic up to a point, but there is a limit, and members listening will be aware of quite a few buildings, actually, in small towns around New Zealand that have an odd combination of heritage listing and seismic challenges that don\u2019t result in good optimal outcomes for small towns or indeed for anyone. That is why whether or not the owner agrees to the removal of the heritage protection is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAgain, Gordon Wilson being a classic case study\u2014you know, successive people have tried to remove the heritage protection of Gordon Wilson for ages. They\u2019ve tried, for ages and ages, and the law has stopped them, because at the moment the current RMA, I would argue, prioritises heritage protection against the evolution of cities. Cities, in my view, shouldn\u2019t be museums; they need to evolve and adapt. It\u2019s not to say we shouldn\u2019t protect heritage; we should. There are special places that will always be sacred, that should always deserve the law\u2019s protection. But we do have to be a bit careful about that when it comes to private property\u2014in fact, we have to be very careful about that when it comes to private property, and we also have to be really careful about that when the owner of a heritage building doesn\u2019t want it to be heritage-listed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThere are a few examples in Wellington\u2014and again I\u2019m thinking of case studies in Wellington\u2014where the council\u2019s listed a private house that someone lives in. They\u2019ve decided that it\u2019s an architecturally recognised house. Fair enough. Some people would disagree about that, but there\u2019s an argument for that. But the owner doesn\u2019t want it to be heritage-listed. They just want to live in their house. Actually, the council turning up and saying, \u201COh, well, you should be really grateful that it\u2019s heritage-listed,\u201D is, frankly, not of great comfort to the person who owns the house, who now can\u2019t do a whole bunch of things to the property that she owns. The council saying, \u201COh, well, you should be really grateful that the Government\u2019s decided, in its munificence, that it\u2019s heritage-listed,\u201D doesn\u2019t actually mean a lot. The reality is, heritage listings do have an economic impact on owners. They do, you know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f71766bcf7c4529a5457be9538f2ec7\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Huge\u2014you\u2019ve got to paint them a certain colour, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf802daca9fb4ca4835843ca7eb534ee\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Can be very big\u2014can also accentuate property values. So that\u2019s the thing. The short answer is: it depends, like everything in life. This is not about throwing the baby out with the bathwater but about tilting things back towards making it easier to delist heritage buildings. As I say, the starting point was the Gordon Wilson flats, but there are other examples.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc37cc3f510a44faa0dca073d20af206\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc37cc3f510a44faa0dca073d20af206\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have some questions on the \u201CAmendments to Regional Plan: Water for Otago\u201D. I appreciate my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking, who touched on that earlier, because I would note that the late Amendment Paper is a substantive document and we weren\u2019t given adequate time last night to really interrogate it properly. I think Shay Schlaepfer of the Environmental Defence Society\u2019s described it as an egregious aggregation of power, which seems to me to be pretty accurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThe questions I have are about Part 2 on page 69, which amends the Regional Plan: Water for Otago. The context is that as we heard on 22 October last year, the Government took the unprecedented act of giving a stiff middle finger to the Otago Regional Council by introducing and passing an amendment to the Resource Management Act amendment bill restricting all councils\u2019 ability to notify freshwater plans, which the Otago Regional Council was about to do the next day. That plan, prepared at the cost of something like $18 million over years of working with mana whenua, academics, community, farmers, ecologists, environmentalists, was something that was about to be sorted, and the Government stepped in in an act of overreach and stopped it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EIt must have been embarrassing, I think, for the Government to then realise that farmers\u2019 water consents would just run out because of that intervention. It must have been embarrassing, I\u2019d imagine, for the Minister to be schooled on the effects of rushed legislation on rural communities and farmers. I\u2019m interested in the types of discussions that were had to try and get a fix\u2014this quick fix that we can see\u2014because we can see the mess that seems to have been created by the Government simply winging it. Then we\u2019ve got a deal with this hasty legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EIn Otago, the Manuherikia River, which rises in the far north of the Maniototo, joins the Clutha at Alexandra. One thing that members opposite might not know is that that river is in an exceptionally dry place. There\u2019s something like 400 millimetres of water that drops in that catchment annually. It\u2019s an exceptionally dry place. What happened in the 1970s with intensive irrigation and the impact of dairying was that we started taking more and more and more water out of that river. It\u2019s now a bit of a slimy dribble of a soup that runs down that river in summer. What we have is a community really concerned with what\u2019s going to happen now to that river as a result of this legislation. So what I also want to know from the Minister is this: will the amendment to prevent certain provisions of the Regional Plan: Water for Otago that relate to rural diffuse discharges from having legal effect help control limits on polluting practices or will it encourage further extraction and pollution to an already compromised\u2014severely compromised\u2014waterway that suffers from frequent algal blooms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EIn the short-form supplementary departmental statement, it says, \u201CAmending a regional plan through primary legislation may frustrate the process, whereby plan provisions have been developed through consultation with communities and other stakeholders through statutory processes.\u201D How does the Minister know that this amendment is not simply adding mess upon mess to his own creation\u2014to the Government\u2019s own creation? This amendment\u2014I can see the rationale\u2014it\u2019s trying to fix up a problem that the Government created by acting with haste. I can see the fishhooks here for the Government, because it looks as though, in trying to do a fix, it is absolutely going to create more mess. Who is going to deal with it? Well, we will in 2026 when we take back Government and deliver something for our communities. I\u2019d like to see why the Government was keen to do this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00222c1b9e385e454224b4207bb7ce8f1cfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c1b9e385e454224b4207bb7ce8f1cfb\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. From the last Minister in the chair, the Hon Simon Watts, there was a holus-bolus dismissal of my question and a claim that there was repetition, and no\u2014no\u2014it was not repetition. I was asking specifically about the difference between the Christchurch provisions and the Auckland provisions, how the qualifying matters relate to the Christchurch provisions, and if it is the same as what the Minister said yesterday, despite the provisions all being written differently, then it has to be site-specific. That\u2019s an important question that should not be dismissed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMy next question is on who the Minister is. I just say this because, looking at page 76\u2014and I know it\u2019s throughout the bill, as well\u2014there\u2019s this ability for a variation of Auckland housing planning instruments and there are other variations of planning instruments allowed, and the Minister has to amend it. That\u2019s already a process that exists in clause 80 of Schedule 1. I\u2019m just wondering\u2014given the discourse that we had in the committee of the whole House last night, it did sound like it was going to be this Minister in the chair at the moment, the Minister responsible for RMA Reform, whose bill and Amendment Paper this is. If it would normally be the Minister for the Environment, then knowing what his view is on that would be useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen another question is in relation to\u2014over the page\u2014Schedule 2. On page 80, in new Part 8, which is to be inserted in Schedule 12 by Schedule 2 of the bill, there\u2019s new clause 49A, \u201CApplication of section 70(3) (rules about discharges)\u201D, and this is to do with the transitional provisions. It says that it applies to any plan that is the subject of an appeal and any ongoing court proceedings. It\u2019d be useful for the Minister to comment on how court proceedings will interact with his changes to section\u00A070. I presume that what this means is that court proceedings under way will have to now look to section 70 as it will be amended by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen the question that I would like to know is whether there are current court proceedings looking at section 30 that will be affected by this transitional provision. Finally, I\u2019m just reminding the Minister about my initial question this afternoon, which was: why do we even need to have transitional provisions\u2014particularly new provisions regarding fisheries\u2014when no new plans are allowed to be made? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022e219bda10673437eb19a6075f169ca6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e219bda10673437eb19a6075f169ca6e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll deal with a few of these issues. Scott Willis\u2019 points, I think, were well canvassed last night for at least 90 minutes, so I don\u2019t necessarily think there\u2019s much point in traversing those matters again. If the Government hadn\u2019t acted in relation to the section 70 matters, as I\u2019ve said publicly and as I said in the House last night, we would have faced a situation where thousands of farmers would have been required to go and get a resource consent for things that they\u2019re currently allowed to do. The Government was not willing to let that situation continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMs Brooking asked about the difference between Christchurch and Auckland. The salient point is we\u2019ve got ourselves into this difficult situation where Christchurch is halfway through its plan change. They\u2019ve done the National Policy Statement on Urban Development plan change provisions, and they now no longer have to do the medium density residential standards provisions. They\u2019ve got to provide for 30 years of housing capacity plus a margin, and so they may choose to adopt some medium-density zones, or they may not. They\u2019ll have greater flexibility and choice around that, but in relation to the operative qualifying matters, they\u2019re the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022906b6d3bc7694c9faf5d91ced05f8b11\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Site specific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba18555b6756454eaacbdde653b6b6f9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, yeah, they\u2019re the same. It\u2019s just that Christchurch is halfway through, and they can\u2019t go back and reopen those decisions. The decisions that came to me for decisions as per the law as it currently exists, they can\u2019t go back and reopen\u2014those are locked and loaded, regardless of how many people would like to unlock them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the delegation about\u2014I mean, the law will say the Minister for the Environment, as it does already. The Prime Minister has delegated various functions of the environment portfolio to me at the moment, and, you know, members will have different views about the appropriateness of that, although I\u2019m enjoying it\u2014so, you know, good on you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to court proceedings, the member raises an issue around that. The short point is yes, it will apply to existing court proceedings. That\u2019s the intent. I don\u2019t know, is the short answer off the top of my head. So I don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe member asked about fisheries at well, which I didn\u2019t quite understand the point the member was making at the end about fisheries plan changes, but perhaps we can come back to that at another point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022122936dc7c894d61a9c3731691595ef0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022122936dc7c894d61a9c3731691595ef0\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just quickly clarify that point. The bill as introduced had lots of provisions\u2014and the provisions remain\u2014that are trying to delineate when rules can be made about fishing and when they can\u2019t, and this transitional provision relates to that. But my point is: are those provisions still relevant, and should they still be in this bill, when, in his amendment that was introduced yesterday, councils are going to be barred from making plan changes until December 2027? So what is the point of all these provisions around fish when they\u2019re going to be paused until the end of 2027, and wouldn\u2019t it be better to bring it into his stage 3 amendments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc122ab72250424dbc4064cc4576ade0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc122ab72250424dbc4064cc4576ade0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E The short point is there still can be plan changes. There\u2019s a default that they stop, but there are exemptions. There\u2019s the ability to apply to the Minister, to me, for an exemption, so plan changes still can happen\u2014in fact, it\u2019s almost certain that some will. Therefore, the transitional provisions around fisheries kick in at that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002284c19c38a09b49cfb43aae1a94a87228\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284c19c38a09b49cfb43aae1a94a87228\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to ask about the provision that is on page 74 of Amendment Paper 347, which is relating to the Mount Albert area: \u201CQualifying matters for Auckland housing planning instrument\u201D, clause 8 of Schedule 1 there. I\u2019m looking at subclause (2)(a)(i). It talks about the area that\u2019s subject to the qualifying matter, and I wanted to know what happens if the hazard may be in another area. We have areas where there is flooding risk, and if you build on them\u2014I\u2019ve actually been to sites where the water flows on to another area, so it doesn\u2019t just affect that area. It\u2019s a lesson learnt from building intensely that there are often other areas that are impacted because the water flows down. We have one issue with water. It\u2019s designed so that we have taken advantage of the slope of the hill from Mount Eden, and the water is supposed to flow all the way down to Gribblehirst Park, and it\u2019s supposed to pool there and then drain. But that hasn\u2019t happened, because roads have been built where people haven\u2019t taken that into account, and in the Auckland floods, we got issues with flooding in areas we didn\u2019t expect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhat I want to know is: is this legislation robust enough that we can make a qualifying matter something where one area will be impacted by another area\u2019s risk? What I\u2019m concerned about with that wording is it seems to be it\u2019s that specific area that is in mind. I can see that we\u2019ve got clause 8(4)(a) as well, which talks about \u201Cin the area\u201D, again: \u201Cthe specific characteristic that makes the level of development specified [in the clause] inappropriate in the area;\u201D. So what do we do about those areas? Do you think that we have covered it sufficiently in this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EMy next question is about differing heights, because one of the lessons that we\u2019ve learnt in Auckland is we had one height that we made appropriate. You could go up to 10 storeys, I think\u2014I\u2019m talking here about the area above Hobson Street. If you look from Ponsonby into the city, what you see is one height all the way along, because that was the height that was specified for all the buildings, and they all went to the maximum. I asked the Minister in the chair before about whether there were height-to-boundary restrictions but also whether there was a capacity to build a plan for intensification in the areas here where there are actually view shafts. I\u2019ve seen that work modelled in the city. When I look on page 75 of the bill, it\u2019s subclause (5)(b) which says \u201Cspecify the alternative heights or densities\u201D. So I can see that you can, as the council, change the plan and you can specify the alternative heights and densities in the area. Is that going to protect us from this issue? Specifically, do you have to specify the height, or can you specify different heights, if you\u2019re the council, in your alternative plan, saying, \u201CWe will want a range of heights in this area, we will want density in these ranges\u201D\u2014or do they have to specify that in a way that would be uniform?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI have another question, and I appreciate I\u2019ve only got 34 seconds\u2014I might just go over that a little bit for the third question, Chair, if possible; I\u2019ll seek the call. It\u2019s actually on page 76, and it is clause 9A, which is about variations of the housing plan. Now, I think that this is actually about plan variation in the future, so I\u2019d like confirmation about that\u2014that you can have a variation of your Auckland housing plan instrument when it happens. Is that\u2014[Bell rings]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7ce405504af444085a12ef0a75ff36d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you seeking another call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d66fce72913478dbec2f139158cd25f\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c8dda4e025f47e0adb92892c48f3876\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Helen White.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280593bd785fb4e7a9f5dfcbcb71ea945\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Is this supposed to allow for an event perhaps that happens? When we had the Auckland floods, it shocked the area how much damage was done and that climate change had happened and there were differences. We got really big slips on Mount Albert. Is it the kind of thing where, as circumstances change, we can vary the plan in this way? Is this what this clause is supposed to be about, or is it somewhere else where there is the capacity to vary the plan if we\u2019ve got it wrong, basically, and it turns out that we can\u2019t do what\u2019s in the original plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThank you. I look forward to the answers to those questions. I\u2019d be interested particularly in the height-to-boundary issue\u2014I\u2019ve asked about that before, but it relates to this. But I really would like to know: are there going to be height-to-boundary rules?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc65c24beb8345b8a07a617f9e4cb0e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc65c24beb8345b8a07a617f9e4cb0e4\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, thank you very much to the member Helen White for those questions. I mean, quite simply, it is within the discretion of the council to be able to make a determination in regards to the points that the member is referring to. The key aspect required under the legislation is that it needs to be substantiated, and so that does provide a degree of flexibility. But, again, as the member has highlighted\u2014we\u2019re both from Auckland\u2014there are differing aspects in terms of options depending on where you are in the city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the question or the point around the variations clause which was there, again, that there provides flexibility to Auckland Council in particular to deal with what would be unforeseen circumstances, and so that\u2019s the purpose of that clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u00224c12a97fec8c455381bd3fd179daf5ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c12a97fec8c455381bd3fd179daf5ad\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216969af8986e47faaeb7026c1df7c13c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I will indicate at this stage that we\u2019ll be looking for new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bab223853cb54358be23a3828859cf93\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s absolutely new material, Mr Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e52c20bb1334774b06a1cc16319c0ac\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I look forward to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aeedb55ce98447196e285026e546d9a\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to be the M\u0101ori again. I\u2019m going to ask some M\u0101ori questions. This is in relation to page 49, if I can invite the Minister to follow me to Part 2, clause 70, \u201CSchedule\u00A01 amended\u201D, new section 75A(2)(d). It\u2019s around the number of independent commissioners that an authority, through the streamlined planning process (SPP)\u2014how they appoint the expertise relevant for the panel, noting that, within this clause, it speaks to \u201C(d) the number of independent commissioners that the authority wants on the SPP panel and the expertise required of the panel; and (e) the implications of using the process that the local authority wishes to use for any relevant iwi participation legislation or Mana Whakahono a Rohe\u201D for this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, when I think about paragraph (e), and the local authority wishing to engage with relevant iwi participation legislation or Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe, it reminds me of the previous page, on 48, where we are narrowing the relationship and the focus of what is tangata whenua engagement in the Resource Management Act (RMA). But also, if we give local authorities the option to \u201Cwish\u201D to engage, they won\u2019t engage. That\u2019s what we have experienced as tangata whenua in Local Water Done Well: when you make it optional to engage with tangata whenua, local councils ignore hap\u016B and iwi. This has another implication in this section, whereby we\u2019re saying if local authorities want to engage with the M\u0101ori, they can\u2014and, by and large, they don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI want to thank National Iwi Chairs, Pou Taiao, who have pointed out in their submissions to the Government that they continue to fall well short of the established expectations of engagement with iwi and hap\u016B as Te Tiriti partners on the development of policy. They said that clearly in their submission on this process, and on the opportunities that they\u2019ve tried to engage with officials to input into policy development and ultimately walked away from the t\u0113pu because it\u2019s so hard to engage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, with this here, and considering the M\u0101ori that local authorities might \u201Cwish\u201D to engage with, it\u2019s only those with participation legislation or a Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe. That\u2019s not relevant in local hap\u016B, iwi, and RMA processes, because it\u2019s not determined by a settlement legislation, a Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe or a hap\u016B-iwi environmental management plan; it\u2019s much broader than that in the k\u0101inga. Iwi, hap\u016B, marae, tangata whenua, M\u0101ori communities\u2014we all input into these spaces. I\u2019m keen to understand from the Minister around expectations of local authorities. By saying \u201Cwish\u201D, is that an expectation, or is that an optional \u201Cmaybe\u201D to engage with the M\u0101ori in the rohe? Further, why, again, are we limiting the M\u0101ori in this legislation? And it\u2019s inconsistent. In one part, we had Part 1. It was very much iwi authority, Mana Whakahono, Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) claimants\u2014nearly every M\u0101ori listed, but there are a few missing, and I wanted to make amendments to say \u201Call hap\u016B-iwi\u201D but got blocked. Now, in Part 2, you\u2019re limiting, again, who the M\u0101ori is that local authorities might \u201Cwish\u201D to engage with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo the question is: is this intentional? Are we going to see some consistency in the way that M\u0101ori engagement is framed within the legislation? Are you even open to broadening that relationship with tangata whenua, and beyond a Mana Whakahono or an iwi participation legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2931478aa7a4f0b800f3c40bde61c4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2931478aa7a4f0b800f3c40bde61c4e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, I thank the member, H\u016Bhana Lyndon, very much for that\u2014well, I don\u2019t know if it was a question; it was more just a statement of sort of opinion and views. I don\u2019t agree with the premise of what was said there. There are so many good examples of longstanding and productive relationships between iwi M\u0101ori and local government across this country. Actually, in the main, those relationships are longstanding and are very effective. So the premise that that isn\u2019t the case is simply not the reality. Can that be improved and can that be enhanced? Well, of course, and that\u2019s like any relationship. But to say that this is optional is just not simply a statement of the reality that exists today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf95cbdd5df041ff9fac6ecd48981874\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf95cbdd5df041ff9fac6ecd48981874\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00227960e20f3b02487caf43d14b32396cb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227960e20f3b02487caf43d14b32396cb6\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019ve got a couple more questions. I\u2019m not going to drag this out any more than is required by the people in my area, who are the most impacted people in Auckland. One of the questions I\u2019m frequently asked is: why them? Why is it their stations that are being affected? I appreciate that the City Rail Link (CRL) brings people up to a certain point, but most of the stations that are in this line are not in the CRL; they are beyond it, and they have been focused on\u2014and they are not being treated like that in Remuera. It\u2019s a comment that is made fairly frequently, that those other areas, those other lines, are not being treated in this way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI would like to know from the Minister: why are we doing it like this and is there a plan to provide further amenities to this area in a way that makes it much more viable? I understand that we haven\u2019t got all the resources in the world. We don\u2019t want sprawl\u2014we want intensification where we can provide it with service\u2014but is there a commitment from the Minister to make sure that this area gets the schooling that\u2019s required, the green space that\u2019s required, etc.? Now, I heard a waffly answer on that from the Minister before, and I appreciate that there shouldn\u2019t be repetition, but a waffly answer is a waffly answer. Is there that kind of commitment to make sure that if we\u2019re going to put affordable housing into our city, we back it up with a decent school; that we do not just say, \u201COh, 3,500 will have to bid with everyone else.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe know the population\u2019s coming. How much planning is going on in the central government space to make sure that these areas are sufficiently backed up by proper amenities, that they are actually places that are really desirable to live\u2014or are we actually just swapping out and putting all the pressure on one area, while the people of Remuera actually have a very different kind of experience and have the focus on schooling? That is a question I genuinely get asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, can I ask another question before I finish, which is actually about the issue over clause 4 in the schedule\u2014this is page 71\u2014and it\u2019s the wording \u201Cdemand for housing and business use in those locations\u201D. I have said to the Minister: why have we got two things? I totally get that there is an issue over \u201Chousing and business use that is appropriate given the level of accessibility to commercial activity and community services\u201D\u2014that\u2019s bang on what I\u2019m talking about. That\u2019s about backing it up. But what has been given here as an alternative\u2014and you have to take the greater of, so you have to have higher densities and heights where there is a demand for housing and business use, but none of those amenities exist. That\u2019s what worries me about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019m trying to be really clear: is that what I am reading? Am I reading that if you\u2019ve got a demand for housing and business use but no amenities in the place, \u201CTough, we\u2019re going to build it anyway. You\u2019re required to do so because it\u2019s the \u2018greater of\u2019 \u201D? What I\u2019m worried about is that there\u2019s a perverse incentive here. If it\u2019s just (B), then yes, we\u2019re on board in that way, because then people will have to give the amenities, whereas if there isn\u2019t, they obviously just have to be left to sink. But what I\u2019d also like to know about that sentence is\u2014I actually don\u2019t know what you mean. Demand for housing and business use in a growing city\u2014isn\u2019t that something that comes? Isn\u2019t it somewhere where we go, \u201CActually, there will be a demand. We are growing city. We\u2019re going to have a lot more people in Auckland.\u201D? I am all for it in terms of making sure that my kids can live down the road, but actually there is a future focus there, whereas this looks like it\u2019s past demand. It\u2019s what has been demanded and how will it be measured. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002223ed658de32149ff8b04408f6b7f2c28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223ed658de32149ff8b04408f6b7f2c28\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks for the question. The majority of that has been covered by the prior Minister, but the point that the member is noting in the context of whether it is always contingent in terms of new intensification being dependent upon the infrastructure being in play, well, the simple reality is that there\u2019s going to be instances where there\u2019s going to be a mismatch of that situation simply because of the fact of the timing and the other infrastructure requirements. But I think, in terms of the long-term plan around ensuring that we have the enablement of infrastructure in place to be able to support growth, that\u2019s very much the strategy of this Government, and that will be implemented by Auckland Council in this instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d33491dcab144fc498606fcb3fa12638\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d33491dcab144fc498606fcb3fa12638\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dd6e72d44c264e2290d19eba2e26f118\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a82732fb76e64ac8aa947bc1fbeaf84f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a82732fb76e64ac8aa947bc1fbeaf84f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Amendment Paper 347 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d823967a79c144a3abbc4188c1de6aba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224b57015de6654a65a68bf47848c6618f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b57015de6654a65a68bf47848c6618f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s amendment to Part 2 set out on Amendment Paper 305 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002267fccb3066294d11a25ca619e1ae6abb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ef1f5b4890db49f6a74fe35b96ce484d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022307b2b496080491da70b831621aafd69\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002243aa08d620644538b9b975413da08227\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243aa08d620644538b9b975413da08227\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We come now to Schedule 1. The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 1 set out on Amendment Paper 347 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c4bf797f92534c3e84e950f02546483b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b512bc3706dd4725b240f446a0187c3f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002213268de1368b402c840e47b6674ca1c6\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022168e192c9b454c738e44b9c1bca5a88e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022168e192c9b454c738e44b9c1bca5a88e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come to Schedule 2. The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Amendment Paper 347 relating to Schedule 2, set out on Amendment Paper\u00A0348 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f1f826802a2a4a2ead309df91973803c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220daeace863144824921473116f613837\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220daeace863144824921473116f613837\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Scott Willis\u2019 amendment to Schedule 2 set out on Amendment Paper 321 is ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022af426d6321d54ebeb448b6442b125b2f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220abc1a414ae64f87827d56cc764eed26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220abc1a414ae64f87827d56cc764eed26\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair for the meal break. The House will resume at 7.30. Enjoy your meals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.59 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022320a06628a41416e94a316f6abc25ec3\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1e731b0493742b5b0569879d64c8cc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1e731b0493742b5b0569879d64c8cc6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is resumed on the Resource Management (Consenting and Other System Changes) Amendment Bill. When we were considering the bill before the dinner break, we had concluded the debate on Part 2. We now come to the final debate on clauses 1 to 3. This is the debate on title, commencement, and principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002218077017c2e842809ef795aa6837cdb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218077017c2e842809ef795aa6837cdb6\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The title of this bill is the Resource Management (Consenting and Other System Changes) Amendment Bill, and when this bill started its life, that was indeed what it was about. It was about consenting and other system changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EA lot of what was in the bill had come from Labour\u2019s Natural and Built Environment Act. Of course this Government repealed it, but then they were bringing some of it back\u2014some sensible things that we haven\u2019t actually talked about very much in this debate\u2014so Labour has been supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI can say\u2014and, hopefully, my colleagues on the Environment Committee will be able to agree with me\u2014that I have spent a lot of time asking advisers and submitters questions about the wording of the bill, and whether different improvements could be made. But what has happened is that it has been derailed, and that is why I think the title needs to change\u2014because of this derailment. That started with changes to farm plans and section 70. We\u2019ve had some discussion on section 70 but nothing on farm plans, because Government members decided to shut down the debate on Part 1 before we got to farm plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThere are some very real questions here about farm plans, because it appears now that the Minister can determine that an industry group can both certify and audit a farm plan, with no role for a regional council, but it doesn\u2019t seem like a system that is going to be robust or internationally recognised. Then, in the amendments tabled yesterday, the day when we started the committee stage on this bill, there was a huge change in terms of enabling the Minister to stop plans\u2014and we had a brief talk about that yesterday\u2014but also to intervene; this is in section 69A. It involves terrible overreach by central government into our local democracies, and there is, of course, some irony with the Minister in the chair in terms of what was said by the National Government\u2014I mean, before they were a Government\u2014by the National Opposition about bringing back localism. But this is doing exactly the opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWhat it is doing is saying that everything has to be about short-term economic gains as well, not the improvement of the environment. So, given that, I have some suggested name changes that relate to those important points that I was unable to make in the first part of this debate. One change would be the \u201CResource Management (Rushing in Changes in an Amendment Paper\u2014Again) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d900b28b553486caeda9c12b9f87885\u0022\u003EHon James Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Aw, frivolous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e6a24b9f65f4389ad0c12d2320578bd\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I hear that it is frivolous. But this is a frivolous and dangerous way to make laws, where we once again have important decisions coming to this House with no select committee process and we\u2019re not even able to debate those provisions in the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAnother suggested title, which is a substantive one, again\u2014I would argue that all of these are, of course\u2014is the \u201CResource Management (Enabling Pollution\u2014Again) Amendment Bill\u201D. That is because we are seeing\u2014and we saw this in the Resource Management (Freshwater and Other Matters) Bill\u2014this Government just say yes to pollution. They say no to improving the environment, but they say yes to pollution, and that is not good for our country. That is not good for our economy in the long term and the medium term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAnother suggestion could be the \u201CResource Management (End of Localism) Amendment Bill\u201D. Another one could be the \u201CResource Management (It Was Looking Promising But Then There Were Too Many Changes Relating to Section 70 Farm Plans, Fossil Fuels, and Interventions) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225107ec7239d84538a0249308404263a8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s too long to be a doable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298a9fefc874349daa46bec754000fe12\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m told that that\u2019s too long, so maybe a shorter one that might appeal to the other side is the \u201CResource Management (Last Minute Overreach) Amendment Bill\u201D or the \u201CResource Management (Forgot About the Environment and Bases Everything on a Short-term Growth Agenda and Nothing Else) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00228af6ca2547f74d378086d3fab5b861da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228af6ca2547f74d378086d3fab5b861da\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002256c6ad186f694b798f58563147467183\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256c6ad186f694b798f58563147467183\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it\u2019s a wee bit soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u002259b569f6eb7f4738bc99ee6487088f56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259b569f6eb7f4738bc99ee6487088f56\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I really appreciate this call, because it is a very serious bill with very serious implications. Thank you. I would like to touch on\u2014[Interruption] Madam Chair, do I just continue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022272d70f60740481391be874bac4d9168\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227823b0ef61534133889ef94d70c833e7\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you. I would like to touch on the commencement clause, and what I would like to go to with that one is clause 2 of the bill. This is particularly around the commencement of section 342A(4), as inserted by clause 66. Now, this is the one that is about, essentially, removing the ability for people to be insured when it comes to fines under the Resource Management Act (RMA)\u2014essentially, environmental offending. We actually really support this clause and this being put in part of the bill, but I wanted to pick up on, particularly, some of the submissions that we heard during the select committee process. We heard lots of support from local government, generally, for the policy intent, particularly in that it would help achieve the deterrence when it comes to the intent of penalties by ensuring that offenders are truly held accountable for their obligations under the RMA. We absolutely agree with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThere were some concerns, however, about the timing of this, and particularly when it comes to existing contracts. Now, what this clause does is it gives two years for those contracts, essentially, to be changed or to come into line with this new rule. But I wanted to touch on, particularly, a submission from Taituar\u0101, which is the group of Local Government Professionals. They sought immediate commencement of the proposal as opposed to two years, because they felt that waiting that two years, essentially, encourages environmental offending, with costs falling on property owners, the Crown, and communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EMy recollection at the Environment Committee was that, you know, this two-year period was to allow that time for existing contracts and lawyers and whatnot to amend those contracts. But I am wondering whether there would be consideration that we actually change the scope of that timing\u2014and I\u2019ve got it in my Amendment Paper 294\u2014so that we actually replace the two years in clause 2(5) with one year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, what are the implications for a change like this? Would the Minister consider it, because it does seem like\u2014although it\u2019s a really positive step\u2014potentially too long of a time frame to actually risk more environmental offending where people can just rely on their insurance to cover the bill. Unfortunately, we know that in some areas and sectors this has been quite standard practice. So, really interested in a response to that. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0a2b1250e364b94a9cf39497fc61a81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0a2b1250e364b94a9cf39497fc61a81\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to answer that question. In response to the question around the amendment, we won\u2019t be accepting the amendment change to one year. The reality is that they can\u2019t use that insurance in any event. The period of time being two years provides an adequate amount of time for that process, in effect, to play its way through. The proposal of one year would not provide sufficient time to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022768e89aa7fb84f5bbcc77ac2e8f4df5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022768e89aa7fb84f5bbcc77ac2e8f4df5e\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I appreciate this. I would like to talk about the title, because we have heard last night and this afternoon about the intent of this bill, and we have had some time to discuss it\u2014not a great deal of time, but some time. We have proposed a number of amendments that we think would have made substantial improvements to the intent of this bill, which currently has the title of the Resource Management (Consenting and Other System Changes) Amendment Bill. Unfortunately, because those amendments weren\u2019t adopted, I don\u2019t think that title is particularly accurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe have heard of the concerns of freeing up the pollution\u2014the provisions that will enable greater pollution in our waterways. We have heard that there will be an enabling of fossil fuel infrastructure. We have heard that this is an approach that has been taken because of a messy bit of work that was done in October last year. We have also heard from the Government that this is all about growth. I fully recognise that the Government seems to believe that the world is unlimited and we will never hit any limits and we can grow, grow, grow our way to anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EIn line with that, the proposal for the title that I think is more accurate is the \u201CResource Management (Growth, Growth, Growth of Pollution) Amendment Bill\u201D. I think it\u2019s relatively simple, but it fits with the chant that we hear from the Government on a regular basis, so it\u2019s a bit of a nod to the Government\u2019s frequently used term. If we think about how this will impact on our communities, we need to acknowledge that this is what it will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThis is how our rural communities will pay for it: they\u2019ll pay with greater nitrate pollution and they\u2019ll pay with cancers, because that\u2019s what\u2019s already happening, and this bill will enable more of that. This will also mean that people who want to swim in our rivers will pay with algal blooms. It\u2019s going to deliver all kinds of benefits\u2014benefits, I guess, to the microbial community, but not to our rural communities. That\u2019s something that I think we\u2019d look for support on from across the Chamber for a more rational title for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why, Madam Chair, I would appeal to you and to the members across the Chamber and to the Minister responsible for RMA Reform that this bill is most appropriately called the \u201CResource Management (Growth, Growth, Growth of Pollution) Amendment Bill\u201D. It\u2019s very simple and very straightforward\u2014a bit like that Government over there\u2014but we just want to make it something that they can understand and that represents what\u2019s in it, because that\u2019s as basic as we can make it, but accurate at the same time. I thank you, Madam Chair, for your indulgence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022b335a1b85a1c4478ab4e3a4c7aaf29d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b335a1b85a1c4478ab4e3a4c7aaf29d6\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223670a6c8d1854a86b7d7dc720b0d90cd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002272fe15f8a4104a369d78034415d9be5a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6080d3b54f746cab883009a394876cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6080d3b54f746cab883009a394876cf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s amendment to clause 2 set out on Amendment Paper 294 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002224e01901da444ccaa740ef62df39b46d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d0ee740b9f294d8b8a03e429f5bd490f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221b8861bf77bd45c9a2d2c210de1c002c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000604\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e40f51fac9a4688961cefb814beefc6\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Water Services) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c9c8f96098fd4f07a553f0e77ed3d541\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000607\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 29 July.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022481779745f46447b99e59d18cca3eb91\u0022\u003EPart 3  Provision of water services: operational matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00225e438d16501241f094099ff29ef90556\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e438d16501241f094099ff29ef90556\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now turn to the Local Government (Water Services) Bill. When we were last considering this bill, we were debating Part 3. This is the debate on clauses 59 to proposed new clause 178D, \u201CProvision of water services: operational matters\u201D. The question again is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00229db178b3aff549bdb65a006f325223a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229db178b3aff549bdb65a006f325223a4\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We\u2019re resuming this particular part. The last time we were discussing this, we were in the earlier sections of this part, and I want to just draw the Minister\u2019s attention to what is clause 64. This is around the publication of the list of charges, and I\u2019m just noting that the change that\u2019s proposed here is the requirement around publishing a list of water service charges within the annual billing period. The change there is that, actually, it wouldn\u2019t be published \u201Conce a year,\u201D but that it would be published, so I\u2019m seeking confirmation from the Minister as to whether that provides a little bit more scope, perhaps, in the ability to publish it more frequently. I do note that it is also noted there that it is related to \u201Cas soon as is reasonably practicable after changing the charges.\u201D, as well. That might be the sort of corroborating factor there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other two clauses that I wanted to ask the Minister about are clauses 65 and 66. What I\u2019ve noticed is that when we\u2019re looking through clauses 65 and 66, there is a very clear change in the wording. It might just be semantics, but, as someone said to me yesterday, where a word is placed and what its meaning is has a very, very important consideration when it comes to legislation. The change from using the word \u201Cimpose\u201D to \u201Cset\u201D in clause 65 and then, again, in clause 66 not using the word \u201Cproviding\u201D but \u201Csetting\u201D\u2014can the Minister explain why that is the case? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s obviously a deliberate intention taken by the Government in this particular case. Is it that if you impose something, then, basically, there is a requirement to follow or charge, whereas if you set it, there is a scope of some flexibility in that some people perhaps may not have to follow up with paying that particular charge, and, if so, where is the provision within this bill that allows for that to happen? I guess the question there, really, is whether it is enabling the sense of a non-payment possibility to exist\u2014so that\u2019s on clauses 65 and 66. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other clause that I wanted to touch on in terms of this contribution is still in the same part. It\u2019s clause 67A, and this is about a water services charge that would relate to \u201Cseparately used or inhabited parts of a property\u201D. Firstly, around the \u201Cseparately used or inhabited parts of a property\u201D, where is the definition around that? The reason why that is particularly important is because it\u2019s, effectively, a new clause that\u2019s being inserted, so how will the Government ensure that this clause will not lead to overcharging, particularly in multi-dwelling properties\u2014which, as I understand it, is what this particular clause seeks to address? I\u2019ll just start with those three questions for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002294809d230ed645eb8e54a609df4eec84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294809d230ed645eb8e54a609df4eec84\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I\u2019m going to rush right ahead here\u2014and apologies to my colleagues who may want to go back again\u2014but into clause 114, and that is the \u201CObligation to publish water services network maps\u201D. Whilst people who spend time in the House with me will know I\u2019m a great fan of maps and spatial planning, my question here is not about the making of the maps\u2014that\u2019s great; good to have maps of the networks\u2014but wondering if there is a time frame for such a map. Apologies if I\u2019ve missed it, but I can\u2019t see it there. I note the next clause down is 114A, and that is the obligation to publish capacity utilisation and asset details\u2014again, great things to be publishing, and that has a four-year time frame for it. It would be useful for the Minister to say what his expectation is for those water service network maps, and maybe an amendment would be useful there as well, or maybe he can point me to somewhere else in the bill where it\u2019s covered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIf I move on ahead, my next question is at clause 150, so this is page 154. It\u2019s the requirement for a territorial authority to make a trade waste discharge plan. The question on this relates to some questions I was asking when we were last discussing this bill about the difference between a territorial authority, the water organisation, and the water service provider, and why those three things are different and how they interrelate. The relevance to this clause\u2014and it might help for him to make a more substantive contribution about those three different roles and where they overlap. The territorial authority, the council, must make this discharge plan\u2014and there\u2019s a time frame in this clause: it\u2019s two years after the date on which this section comes into force. They may delegate it to \u201Ca water organisation\u201D. Then the next clause downstairs refers to the territorial authority and \u201Cits water organisation\u201D. I\u2019m interested in why there\u2019s an \u201Cits\u201D at (3) and there\u2019s just \u201Ca\u201D water organisation at (2). Is it really the expectation that the territory authority will always be connected to one water organisation, so that\u2019s what the relationship is about, or are they going to have a choice of water organisations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen my final question for this contribution is in relation to the same clause 150. At the new subclause (5)(ba), the select committee has inserted that a requirement of this discharge plan is \u201Cany proposed or recommended trade waste bylaws that are necessary to implement the plan\u201D. My question around that is: is this something that would be directed by some other\u2014by a Minister or someone else\u2014that they have to make the trade waste by-law, or is it up to that council to determine that to be able to make a good discharge plan, they\u2019re going to need some new by-laws, and that\u2019s the role of those by-laws; they are because the council\u2019s determining it themself? Then, related back to my ongoing questions about these water organisations and relationships with councils, is there an ability for a water organisation to make a by-law, or does it have to be the territorial authority that makes the by-law? If the council has delegated to the water organisation, does it also delegate that by-law - making power, as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00229ce42d680bd945b78ef0ec2ed445f470\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ce42d680bd945b78ef0ec2ed445f470\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you, members, for those questions. I\u2019ll work my way through them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EQuestions in regards to clauses 65, 66\u2014they don\u2019t relate to non-payment; they simply relate to the reality that only one of those entities can charge for water, and that\u2019s the purpose of those aspects. Instances around non-payment, either from a water service entity or other council or territorial authority are dealt with in other aspects of the Local Government Act. Clause 67A, in regards to, I think, the member\u2019s question\u2014it doesn\u2019t convey around any expectation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283b00b95975d48fd9be47978c8e40738\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you. Can the Minister speak up, please, or speak into the microphone a little bit more?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b52c0c0d5a734e1da8556d475563fe49\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: No problem. Thank you very much. Clauses 65, 66 don\u2019t relate to non-payment. That is dealt with in other aspects of legislation. It deals with the fact that only one entity can charge for water. Clause 114, the question around what the time period is\u2014I refer the member to clause 114A, which says four years. Questions in regards to territorial authorities and trade waste in regards to by-laws\u2014it simply recognises the fact that those by-laws will be set by councils in those instances. Clause 67A, in regards to a question as to whether this confers or links to overcharging, that is not the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00228ffe9e4ae3fb4ba58f3e6c326f4d705c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ffe9e4ae3fb4ba58f3e6c326f4d705c\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have a few questions for the Minister on Part 3\u2014and noting that Part 3, particularly around the operation element, is quite important in certain areas. Most importantly, I think it\u2019s the Minister\u2019s own Amendment Paper, Amendment Paper 346\u2014there are a couple of questions, I think, where the Minister\u2019s amendment has differed from the version that has been reported back from the Finance and Expenditure Committee; it\u2019s really important on some of the technicalities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe first question I have for the Minister is on clause 73(1) and (1)(b). This is a clause that talks about information needed by water organisations. I want to check with the Minister, in terms of the rationale, in terms of changing it from \u201Cconsumers\u201D to \u201Caccount holders\u201D, in terms of the information that is needed, because, in this case, those two things are very different. A consumer may not be an account holder. What was the rationale behind changing the definition from \u201Cconsumer\u201D to \u201Caccount holder\u201D when it comes to information? Again, if you\u2019re looking at a situation where the account holder might be, let\u2019s say, for example, a person who may not be living there but is the holder of the account, then they are expected to provide information rather than the person who is actually living on the premises providing that information. I think that clarity is quite important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe next point I want to address is clause 83. There are substantial changes between the version reported back from the select committee and the Minister\u2019s amendments on clause 83. I want to pick up on two parts of this, one on development contribution and one on financial contribution. In terms of the development contribution, the new clause that is inserted in new clause 83(1B) talks about the water organisation and territorial authority extending the policy and also in terms of the development contribution. I just want to check with the Minister: what was the rationale for adding this into it, noting that this is a likely scenario that had eventuated previously, but now it\u2019s just been kind of uncovered and is now being inserted? I want to check with the Minister on the development contribution element, if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind elaborating on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s the same scenario when you\u2019re looking at clause 83(5), the same thing when it comes to the financial contribution, when we\u2019re looking in terms of potentially\u2014correct me if I\u2019m wrong\u2014the transfer from a territorial authority to a water organisation and how that would affect financial contributions from the territorial authority. In particular, in subclause (3)(a), when you\u2019re talking about amendments having to be made by a \u201Cresolution of the governing body of the territorial authority\u201D, is this something that\u2014noting the amendment that hasn\u2019t potentially been consulted on\u2014the Minister has consulted on with local government around the decision-making aspect of it where we\u2019re talking about it made by resolution, and how that would eventuate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThose are my three questions to start with around the definition change from \u201Cconsumer\u201D to \u201Caccount holder\u201D, the question around the extension of the territorial authority policy as part of the development contribution, and also around the financial contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227e16c74c31da43acaf458d8d61f77138\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e16c74c31da43acaf458d8d61f77138\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E In regards to clause 73, the reason why the account holder is in play is because the account holder is the one who is liable for the charge, and hence why the definition is that. In regards to clause 83(1)(b), the simple reality here is that it states\u2014as you would expect\u2014that a territorial authority that transfers those services to a water services entity can\u2019t then charge for those once those are transferred. Again, it goes back to the answer to the question I gave before, which was that only one of the entities has the mechanism in order to charge, and a wide range of consultation has been undertaken in regards to this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00224c8dc0540589468b9f07e0be7978cf3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c8dc0540589468b9f07e0be7978cf3b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have some questions on these trade waste discharge plans. It\u2019s a little confusing just going between the bill as reported back from the select committee here and the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper, but I\u2019ll do the best I can. Look, the first thing I just want to query is in terms of a trade waste discharge. Sitting in the bill as reported back by the select committee\u2014it\u2019s on page 154 of the bill as reported back. I\u2019m looking at the interpretations in clause 149. It has persisted, I think, into the Minister\u2019s one. It\u2019s just to do with \u201Ccommercial\u201D. The word \u201Ccommercial\u201D under the description of \u201Ctrade waste discharge\u201D was inserted into that definition of a \u201Ctrade waste discharge\u201D by the select committee. It\u2019s an \u201Cindustrial, commercial, or trade process or operation, or a related process or operation\u201D, which survived into the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper. I\u2019m just wondering if that word \u201Ccommercial\u201D includes the agricultural sector where the farms fit into the same space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI just genuinely don\u2019t know this. It\u2019s an interesting one, because, of course, today we\u2019ve seen over the last couple of days in the news that farmers don\u2019t have to apply for resource management consent for discharges off their farms, and it\u2019s quite an important point. Again, I want to know whether that farming operation falls into this definition of \u201Ccommercial\u201D or whether it\u2019s excluded somewhere else in the Act or it\u2019s never intended to fall in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI ask this because, of course, farming operations are huge operations these days. I\u2019ve got a cousin who farms down near Ashburton, who\u2019s got 1,600 dairy cows. That\u2019s a non-trivial operation. So I do want to understand if it fits in there and then how this particular set of rules is then going to relate to what\u2019s going on with the Resource Management Act and so on. There\u2019ll be just a little bit to clarify there, please, for the committee\u2019s information, because I\u2019m sure other people here would like to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to move on, then, to the next clause, thinking about these trade wastes, and it is clause 150. It\u2019s just a little change between the bill as reported back by select committee and the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper. The bill as reported back from the select committee said that \u201C(2) A territorial authority may delegate preparing and issuing preparation of the trade waste discharge plan\u201D, but the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper says that \u201CA territorial authority may delegate preparing, consulting on, and issuing the trade waste discharge plan\u201D. It\u2019s a tiny change, but was it just oversight in the first set of drafting, or is there something of significance to do with that? Of course, we want to see that these trade waste discharge plans are consulted on. I\u2019m assuming it was just oversight, but if the Minister could confirm that, it seems a shame that it wasn\u2019t picked up in select committee or it wasn\u2019t brought out then. If the Minister could just clarify, that would be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002248674c428cf94a318bced99a0b85fe0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248674c428cf94a318bced99a0b85fe0e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E In regards to the questions around whether farms are included within the definition of \u201Ccommercial\u201D, the answer is yes. In regards to the aspect on clause 150, it\u2019s a remedial change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022609cb0a7407c4a0a9b0d394791000399\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022609cb0a7407c4a0a9b0d394791000399\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00224f877b9e8cca4a07868aa3a15bc9df49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f877b9e8cca4a07868aa3a15bc9df49\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s ambitious of you, Mr Hamilton. Lan Pham.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u002247f83e28e10b4517a2d955030ae73bea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247f83e28e10b4517a2d955030ae73bea\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I hope you can pick up from the content of these contributions that we are actually stepping very swiftly through the bill and only concentrating on the absolute primary parts that we would like some clarity on. This is such a substantial bill, and having been on the select committee I can tell you that it was extremely at pace and there are huge aspects of this bill that we actually do not have clarity on. Any other member who says otherwise, I would really question their diligence in terms of having these bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe question that I would like to hear from the Minister is about clause 165, and this is in the section on management of stormwater networks, which starts on page 162, but this clause 165 is on page 163, and this is about the development of the stormwater network risk management plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, I know throughout the committee process there was a lot of effort from officials, particularly, in response to submissions that went into a number of changes to the definitions, particularly when it comes to unpicking and trying to be clear about the stormwater aspects of the bill and how they might be best reflected in these stormwater network risk management plans. These were things around overland flow paths and various other terms that sought to better clarify for councils what their actual roles and responsibilities were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, the issue that we\u2019re constantly grappling with when it comes to stormwater is that a very substantial part of the stormwater network is natural watercourses, and sometimes these are piped, sometimes they are buried, and sometimes they just look like a normal stream or river. These are receiving the water off the land. My question is around whether the Minister believes that we have reached a point with this bill where councils are given adequate guidance when it comes to, you know, figuring out which parts of stormwater are or aren\u2019t being transferred to these entities, and whether he believes councils are actually being given the adequate guidance that they so desperately need in terms of these roles and responsibilities, because it has been very unclear for a long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EReally interested in understanding whether the Minister thinks this bill adequately responds to these tensions and whether there is adequate guidance and direction. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002202f4c614420e4cc898ce40b4ab4d84ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202f4c614420e4cc898ce40b4ab4d84ed\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to follow up on the question I was raising before as to whether agriculture was included in commercial operations\u2014and thank you to the Minister for that clarification. It\u2019s just got me puzzled now about the relationship between the Resource Management Act (RMA) and this bill, and in particular, I suppose, the concerns we might have from the news that\u2019s come through today around the farmers not being required to apply for consents for the existing practices\u2014as far as I can tell, I think it\u2019s just because we\u2019re awaiting reforms to the RMA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENevertheless, there\u2019s just a couple of things going on here, and if the Minister could square them away for me, just how these trade waste discharges, particularly with respect to agriculture, relate to the RMA or whatever is coming in the RMA replacement. I guess, for many New Zealanders, there is a sneaking sense of concern and worry about the news today. I get that we might wait for the actual RMA reforms to come through, but in the meantime if the Minister could just give us a little bit of enlightenment on how these waters services plans are going to be related to the discharge of agricultural waste water and how that just fits in with the whole RMA reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2a6122b19ae4781b120cb42992b744f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2a6122b19ae4781b120cb42992b744f\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, thanks very much, Madam Chair. Obviously, the standards in regards to waste and discharge are within the regulation of the water-quality regulator. This legislation obviously ensures that that is implemented. The aspects and the interrelationship in the context of the Resource Management Act are out of the scope of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00222e0bdb9f1313463ab05e136cbe0bbc2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e0bdb9f1313463ab05e136cbe0bbc2f\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I also just want to remind, I think, the opposition, and I\u2019m just going to start by saying that, look, one of the things I\u2019ve heard from the other side\u2014because they\u2019re trying to say that they think that the discussion\u2019s done, but I\u2019d like to quote something that the opposition members said on the other side: \u201Cbut please, to the other side of the House, it is very important we get this right. This is what the committee of the whole House process is about. It\u2019s about getting it right to the utmost, where we can go away and have a good night\u2019s sleep knowing that we exhausted all the questions that we had. Please, please, be patient as we do that.\u201D I\u2019m just asking the members on the other side of the committee to also extend us the same courtesy in just going through it bit by bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWith that in mind, I would like to ask the Minister a question around\u2014still we are on development contribution. I want to ask the Minister around, I guess, to start with, when we are looking at development contribution policy under clause 85(5)(b), it says that the development contribution policy is \u201Cdo so in accordance with \u2026 LGA\u201D, but can I check\u2014and I genuinely am interested\u2014are these policies considered secondary legislation? This being my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy second question is more on the changes to the maximum development contribution in clause\u00A091. I want to home in on new subclause (2)(b) in Amendment Paper 346, which is when we\u2019re looking at \u201CDevelopment contributions \u2026 must not exceed the amount\u2014(b) amended for any Producers Price Index adjustment\u201D. I want to check with the Minister, when we are looking at these sorts of adjustments and the amount, we are looking at a maximum, but not necessarily the minimum amount; are there any provisions in place to consider minimum amount?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI would rationalise why I\u2019m asking the Minister about minimum amount because one of the peculiar things that we\u2019ve noticed most recently in the customs and excise tax is a challenge where, under clause 21 of one of the schedules, they only ever indicated a maximum amount of levy that cannot be charged on tobacco products by pricing it to the producers price index. However, because there is no minimum threshold, it actually made Customs able to have regulations in place that allow a much lower tax, because one never expects a levy to be much lower; you would only expect it to increase. Applying the same logic here in new clause 91(2)(b), where we are expecting the development contribution to only increase and it must not exceed that amount, have there been any thoughts about what happens if a territorial authority or water organisation would drastically decrease the requirement for development contributions? Those are my two questions: is development contribution policy a secondary legislation and is there a minimum development contribution considered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EJust finally, I want to check with the Minister if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind answering my questions around new clause 83(6) around consultation with local government on what is meant by \u201Cresolution of the governing body of the territorial authority\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f664e07577c84d3eb18cf0f32f41d808\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f664e07577c84d3eb18cf0f32f41d808\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. No, it\u2019s not secondary legislation, because it\u2019s identified in the legislation, as the member quoted the specific clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to clause 85(5)(b), what that is simply doing is referring to the fact that development contributions need to be charged in accordance and taken into account with section 82 of the Local Government Act, which outlines a number of exemptions which need to apply, so it\u2019s simply linking that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI mean, these aspects, as I\u2019m aware, were discussed at length through the full select committee process of the bill, so I don\u2019t intend to waste the time of the committee any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022febd3e193fc4428a93a08932f362aac6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022febd3e193fc4428a93a08932f362aac6\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to look at new clause 168A, and this is about consultation on a proposed plan. It is in relation to a stormwater network risk plan that\u2019s associated with that. In particular, I want to ask the Minister about 168A(1)(b)(ii). This is about the requirement for a water service provider to undertake public consultation\u2014yep, I understand that\u2014and then, of course, a requirement to then consult for other aspects of this plan. The one that I want to ask the Minister about is the second one, which is the requirement to consult \u201Cthe regional council in whose region the provider\u2019s service area is located:\u201D. My question for the Minister is: what happens in circumstances where a water service provider may span more than one regional council boundary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt may not actually be that much of an issue, because, in the area of water reform, this Government with Christopher Luxon promised to make things better, but he\u2019s simply making things worse given the number of entities that are proposed to actually exist as a result of this. It may be that, actually, there are no entities or water service entities that do span many territorial authorities, but this relates specifically to regional councils. My question to the Minister is: what happens in what seems to be a rare circumstance, given the higher number of entities that was not envisaged by this Government\u2014what does that actually mean in that particular space?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy other question is about clause 173. I think the obligations on those associated with ownership of private land is very, very important. Now, what we see with the changes here, again, is a change to the terminology. Instead of it basically being \u201Cprivate landowners or landowner\u201D, it\u2019s now being changed to \u201Cprivate owner\u201D. Now, why is it, Minister, that through clauses 174 and 175, the Government seeks to change the definition there from \u201Cthe owner of private land\u201D to \u201Ca private owner\u201D, and why then not change the heading of \u201CObligations of owners of private land\u201D to simply \u201Cprivate owners of land\u201D? There seems to be an inconsistency there. First of all, I\u2019d like to know why the change is necessary and, secondly, why, for consistency, have you not sought to change the heading to be basically consistent with what the other changes are that you wish to make?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOn clause 173A, there is a requirement there for the provider to work collaboratively with the private owner to try and identify solutions. Why is the collaboration aspect there? Surely there\u2019s a requirement to work with them or not. The reason I asked the Minister that question is because if they can\u2019t receive some sort of outcome, whether it\u2019s collaborative or not, the end result is there is no joint outcome and then, effectively, subclause (3) kicks in. Why require collaboration if there is a mechanism for an outcome, if collaboration is actually not necessary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022225021dfac5d44af8adac9b94b0ffcee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022225021dfac5d44af8adac9b94b0ffcee\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I was just reading through the section on the management of stormwater networks. There may be somewhere in the bill that does this, so I\u2019m working off the bill as reported back from the select committee, but it doesn\u2019t really matter, because I don\u2019t really need to go into a very detailed analysis of each clause. Look, I can see in here that water services providers have to develop management plans and risk management plans for stormwater networks. They have to work collaboratively, or just work, with owners of private land to maintain stormwater networks, and so on. What I can\u2019t see\u2014maybe it\u2019s just implied; maybe you don\u2019t need to state it\u2014anywhere is where the water service provider is themselves required to maintain, properly, a stormwater network. I can see they\u2019re required to plan for it, they\u2019re required to identify the risks\u2014where is the clause that gives them the responsibility for actually maintaining it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, you might think this is trivial, but I\u2019m going to direct the Minister\u2019s attention to some of the stuff that occurred in Auckland on the anniversary weekend floods. I want to refer particularly to some of what went down in my rohe over in West Auckland, where floods came down creeks which were part of the stormwater network but they overflowed on to private land and, as far as we could tell, the reason that they overflowed on to private land was that those creeks had not been maintained. Debris had built up in them, various exit points had been choked up, so flows of water got much more intense than they needed to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not good enough just to have a stormwater network and identify the risks associated with it, and it\u2019s not good enough just to get the private landowners, who might have aspects of the stormwater network going through their land to maintain it\u2014I actually want to see the operative clause where the water services provider is actually required to do the work. I couldn\u2019t locate that clause\u2014no doubt, the Minister\u2019s officials can direct us to it so it\u2019s not just a matter of having to identify risks and plan for them; they might actually have to do the work as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002265e8d5672d704cbca12e9b9dff9ae792\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265e8d5672d704cbca12e9b9dff9ae792\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is related to this clause as well\u2014so that is 170, \u201CStormwater network bylaws\u201D\u2014and what I\u2019m interested in, again, is this relationship with owners of private land, because the by-law can relate to, without limiting, they \u201Cmay impose requirements\u2014(b) on the owners of private land in relation to managing overland flow paths and watercourses\u201D. Now, this is commendable that we\u2019re trying to deal with the issues that my colleague was just speaking about. However, it is unusual for a by-law to be able to impinge the rights or make private landowners actively do many things. Of course, there have been for a long time, to my knowledge, by-laws that say things like, \u201CWell, you can\u2019t build a new thing in this area which is an overland flow path.\u201D, but could a by-law require much more active management from those private landowners than saying that they cannot do some things? Will there be requirements on them to do something?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMy colleague was speaking about clearing debris from streams\u2014that might be one of the things. We see in subparagraph (c) there\u2019s \u201Cobstructions and diversions of stormwater; \u2026 (ii) ground soakage systems; \u2026 (iii) alterations to the network; and (iv) damage to the network.\u201D Are these all things that private landowners and households will be expected to fund as well? I ask this because we hear from the Government a lot about private property rights, so I\u2019m wondering what the impositions are that the Minister of Local Government expects that these by-laws can do. I\u2019ve looked at the Finance and Expenditure Committee commentary and I couldn\u2019t see anything on the precedent for these types of by-laws and what sort of legal analysis the committee had gone through, because I do recall last term discussing some of these issues, and they were quite complicated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI am interested in what the Minister\u2019s expectations are here and what legal advice\u2014not privileged, of course, but if these issues have been considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002231e838793a4443e1bbef60553d5e85f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231e838793a4443e1bbef60553d5e85f9\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks very much, Madam Chair. I mean, I must say, three of these questions that have been asked in regards to clauses 168, the one that we just had around \u201Cstormwater network\u201D definition, and 173 around private land\u2014all are answerable had one read the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EClause 168A, stormwater\u2014if the member had read clause 166, it has a whole section on the answer to what the question was being asked. So, with respect, read the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EClause 173, \u201Cprivate land\u201D\u2014it will mean the same thing, so that is it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAgain, the member asking where \u201Cstormwater\u201D is defined\u2014well, it\u2019s in the interpretation section under clause 4. Again, if he\u2019d read the bill, he would see that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00221acbf6bfb2404b578fcca2be3a213d80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221acbf6bfb2404b578fcca2be3a213d80\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is my first call on this, and I\u2019d really like to pick up on the Minister\u2019s unsatisfactory answer, actually, to that very pertinent question not only by the Hon Rachel Brooking but before that by the Hon Deborah Russell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIf I can provide some context to this House and to anyone watching, in the last Parliament we spent an inordinate amount of time going through this particular issue for the reasons raised around the, I think it was, 3,000 different streams and waterways across Auckland, which course over public and private property. I want to acknowledge the Hon Phil Twyford for the incredible work he did to look at the legalities of that, as well as the practicalities, and the way that Auckland in many ways was an outlier from other councils. If we boil it down to specific examples I think it might be helpful, because I don\u2019t think it\u2019s satisfactory or helpful to anyone for the Minister to say, \u201CRead the bill, it\u2019s in there.\u201D without answering questions about what would happen in a true scenario. These are scenarios that happened during the flooding in Auckland and would have been avoidable from the research we saw had these answers been resolved. This is around the authority of councils to make by-laws but also fair obligations that don\u2019t have perverse drivers on behaviours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EFor example, if one is downstream from a neighbour and the neighbour has not done anything to clear some of the waterways, and then on this person\u2019s property the logs come down, block the waterway\u2014is there an active duty of care on the second property, and will they be liable for any flooding that occurs as a result of not actively taking those logs out, or does the liability come on to the first property holder?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIf the council is to require a property owner to clear debris out of their garden, is it an active requirement so that this is something that they must do even though there is no public impact of what is happening, or if they fail to do it, is there a compensatory mechanism that will then mean that the council will go and clear the potential stormwater way, because that is the impediment, and then charge it back to the first property owner?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere is no detail in the answers that I have heard from the Minister. We spent weeks and weeks on this issue, and I also have to say that we put in quite a strong amendment and a change to the initial bill that really looked at this, because we knew what was at stake if we passed the law in its previous current state and there was another weather event in Auckland. We would be back to square one with the terrible carnage that was caused and the damage to properties and the mental health issues that came as a result\u2014as a direct result of not getting this sorted out. The Hon Phil Twyford did the leg work, we were able to get it through the Ministers, and we had answers to each of those scenarios.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIf the Minister could please enlighten us to that very specific example I\u2019ve just given him about the liability relating to two properties where one property is at fault, the second one isn\u2019t, but the damage point occurs at them at their juncture. Also, what type of compensation or action must be taken by the council to ensure that when a property owner has not cleared their property, the impediment is still removed and some kind of recourse is available to the ratepayers to get the money back, but the problem is resolved. Currently, I don\u2019t hear any resolution to that, and I\u2019m deeply worried for the people of Auckland who are going to be living through more stormwater events and more flooding events. The kind of opaque answers that we\u2019re hearing do nothing to reassure me that there will be clarity about what their duties are, clarity about what the council\u2019s duties are and what they can use within their powers that is lawful, and also who is going to get compensated for what. If the Minister could please answer that scenario, I\u2019m sure there\u2019ll be other questions and other scenarios that we would like to hear answers from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002296e60ddb0655420bacc2444473bcbbb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296e60ddb0655420bacc2444473bcbbb0\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I appreciate that some members may have found my comments asking them to read the bill maybe a little bit unsatisfactory, but the reality is, the questions being asked are clearly described in the clauses of the bill. Members are referring to questions that are very clearly in clause 174 of the bill. If you were to have read it, it says\u2014and I\u2019m wasting the House\u2019s time, but for the purposes of simplicity\u2014\u201CPrivate owner who impairs stormwater flow\u201D. I mean, this is\u2014and with respect\u2014asking questions that are clearly in the bill, and so I am adding no value by simply repeating what you have in front of you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002239535f9c2a554bf5aa4707f9996de580\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239535f9c2a554bf5aa4707f9996de580\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd9c364af2a7471092f7a07b4361ff89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd9c364af2a7471092f7a07b4361ff89\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I have to say we are getting very close. This particular clause and topic has been covered in depth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022bed661eaf1164bc2bddfd763ff0b6a95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bed661eaf1164bc2bddfd763ff0b6a95\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I do have very specific questions, but, first, I do want to push back on what the Minister is saying in terms of reading the bill, because, yes, there is a responsibility for members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220570f64688f444ccae2a3ecd01a5b020\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can you just refer to the clause you want to speak to, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ec13761e80c4429b5e2a79bb15260a2\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: The clause is 164A, in terms of the definition of \u201Cmanage\u201D. The reason I\u2019m focusing on this is that what the Minister didn\u2019t mention in his contribution is the fact that the 394-page Amendment Paper that is No. 346 was dropped post - select committee. My question to the Minister is specifically focused on new parts of that Amendment Paper that have not yet been seen by anyone. The reason I\u2019m focusing on this part in terms of \u201Cmanage, in relation to a risk,\u201D is around the definition \u201C(b) to monitor the effectiveness of those actions\u201D. The reason I\u2019m focusing on this is, yes, there is a lot of clauses, as the Minister said, within the bill in terms of that management plan. Even though there\u2019s a specific clause 169 on the review of a plan, the review of a plan doesn\u2019t necessarily include the new term that is introduced on \u201Cthe effectiveness of those actions.\u201D It simply says review once every 10 years, as necessary, the network risk management plan. There is information on consultation of the plan and also the content of the stormwater plan, which we see in clauses 167 and 168.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe question to the Minister is: it\u2019s all very well to have the content, but I could not see, within the content, what happens when something goes wrong. When we\u2019re looking at a risk management plan\u2014if you\u2019re looking at any risk management plan for a company, there is also an accountability measure as well as an overseeing authority. For most workplaces, it is WorkSafe. That is an agency that is able to look into things when something goes wrong and causes harm. But the content of the stormwater network risk management plan doesn\u2019t mention accountability measures. How would, then, one monitor the effectiveness of those plans, as detailed in the new clause that is introduced in the Amendment Paper?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThat is an important question, because, again, when we are looking at some of the examples that other honourable members have mentioned, when it\u2019s not managed well, people lose their lives and people lose their homes. If there\u2019s no accountability measure on checking the effectiveness\u2014it\u2019s the only line I could see that is mentioned, since it\u2019s a newly introduced clause\u2014then it does open it up to potential scrutiny and other forms of review. That\u2019s the question I have for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbd1102884dc48c395d6a8cfb1f564dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbd1102884dc48c395d6a8cfb1f564dd\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I acknowledge the member\u2019s question on clause 169, but the answer to the member\u2019s question lies in the clause in which the member\u2019s referring to. Clause 169 is the review of the plan. That is an accountability requirement. If the member reads 169(1), it states quite clearly that there are obligations and accountabilities to not only review the plan but also to revise the plan if there are material differences. In a very simple sense, that is accountability. Clause 168A provides the criteria in which that needs to be done. Nice question, but, in effect, the clause is doing exactly what you\u2019re referring to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00227a0f7b19fc884fb8b1728af89f15beb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a0f7b19fc884fb8b1728af89f15beb0\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This will be a short call because it relates to what the Minister was saying when he was saying to read the bill. I think that answer was in part because I was asking about by-laws and active requirements on private property owners and how that is an unusual thing for a by-law to do. I asked if there\u2019d been any advice on that, and I have not heard an answer to that. I did hear a reference to clause 174, which is that if the stormwater flow is impaired\u2014so something happens rather than something doesn\u2019t happen, but you have to follow a by-law\u2014then the private owner must remedy the impairment or pay the reasonable costs, and then the private owner is not required to do things that are caused by other people\u2014or that there\u2019s a natural disaster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI think that\u2019s what the Minister was saying, but that still does not answer my question about the unusualness of such a by-law. Is it that people will be coming in and checking on properties before any event happens? What is he imagining these by-laws to do, and has he looked, or did his officials look, at the advice that was before the select committee in the last term of Government, because these are difficult issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI was also wondering if he can explain the link to Subpart 9, which is \u201COther Operational Matters\u201D. This says that where there is an offence, etc.\u2014so presumably you\u2019re in breach of the by-law\u2014then the water service provider can turn you off. Does he see that as linking to the by-law, because there\u2019s a reference there to by-laws in (b), or is this unrelated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u0022db96a1732fa24a98ad05f4f507a48612\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db96a1732fa24a98ad05f4f507a48612\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f15bda2dcfcd4009b48404fa186d7f5e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7fe717498fc4efe807579f4c6bbd277\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7fe717498fc4efe807579f4c6bbd277\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendments to Amendment Paper 346, amending clauses 167 and 178C be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227ac0448d608944569b2f929383530bdc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed\u00A0to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e73c1d6718d64ab49e934c529de65af4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e73c1d6718d64ab49e934c529de65af4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Amendment Paper 346, as amended, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224250d3e944e94fc0a0d048f90f660310\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022724e8a1f00634abba75a6861d0b5c115\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022724e8a1f00634abba75a6861d0b5c115\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause 109 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221d4d2ed726f3461a941219b73db6ccc5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022de5390a986964bf3826deb987d67d320\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de5390a986964bf3826deb987d67d320\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendments to clause 168A(5) be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223c6411aa207a44ae9a583dbccbeed749\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002269fcb72fee7b4dadac24bed5d4235d35\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c346255b1ba8441a9a0ffdef445cebce\u0022\u003EPart 4  Planning, reporting, and financial management\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002291f1e87c4a764baeac772850547dd52a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291f1e87c4a764baeac772850547dd52a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on Part 4. This is the debate on clauses 197 to 214, \u201CPlanning, reporting, and financial management\u201D, and Schedules 3 and\u00A04.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef1b5ff0d90e4fb1982b866d2f2ba187\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef1b5ff0d90e4fb1982b866d2f2ba187\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As an accountant, I find this part of the bill particularly exciting\u2014I\u2019m sure the Minister of Local Government does too. There are actually some interesting changes between the bill as reported by the Finance and Expenditure Committee and the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper 346. The Minister has just been telling us we should have read the bill, which is an interesting thing to say; however, the Amendment Paper, of course, only just arrived on our desks as this debate started, really. I would hope that the Minister isn\u2019t going to be telling us we should have read the entire Amendment Paper as well\u2014I suppose he might.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ELook, I want to start on clause 179A, \u201CResponsibilities under this part\u201D. In particular, I do just want to focus on the things that have changed. I want to go to 179A(1)(a), new subparagraph (iv). It says that as a water service provider that is a territorial authority, you\u2019ve got to prepare an annual report directly, through a contract, through a joint water service provider\u2014so these are the people who have to provide a water services strategy, a budget, a water services annual report. There are the obvious ones, but then it says \u201Cthrough another type of arrangement under section 9(1)(f)\u201D, so instead of directly listing in this part of the bill who\u2019s got to prepare this water services strategy, annual budget, and water services report, we\u2019re directed back to section 9(1)(f) of the bill. Going to 9(1)(f), it\u2019s sort of not very clear, because it just says, \u201Canother type of arrangement that is consistent with this Act, including receiving a transfer of responsibility for providing water services from the regional council\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EA couple of questions there. One is: why, under 179A(1)(a), couldn\u2019t we have actually had a fuller description of the types of arrangements, and why did we have to refer back to another part of the bill? I could really just do with the Minister elucidating exactly what those types of arrangements are back in 9(1)(f) that are referred to now in 179A(1)(a)(iv). That\u2019s the first question I have to ask of the Minister in relation to this part of the bill that is all to do with planning and reporting and financial management\u2014just some clarification there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe next bit\u2014and, again, it\u2019s in the same clause where we\u2019ve had a phrase added\u2014is in clause\u00A0179A(2) in the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper. Very roughly, it says that a territorial authority has got to prepare all these reports\u2014the plan, the strategy, the budget, an annual report\u2014but need not prepare these in respect of a minor aspect of the water service. So it\u2019s \u201Cresponsible for providing only a minor aspect of a water service\u201D and \u201Cneed not prepare\u201D that minor aspect of the water service. What I want to understand is: what counts as a minor aspect of a water service? The idea here is that clearly it would be ridiculous to go through all these huge documents\u2014prepare them\u2014for what is only a minor part of a water service. I just want to get a sense of what counts as a minor part. It\u2019s just that there\u2019s a little bit of an out here that\u2019s possible for water service providers. To have an understanding of what is a minor part\u2014if the Minister could maybe give some examples, just to help to be sure that we\u2019re not creating a problem here or a loophole here that could be exploited, that would be helpful for the Hansard. I hope it never has to be helpful for a judge one day to try to sort this out, but some examples would be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002263edd8a7c7fd4ca58bf645e66febbbe1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263edd8a7c7fd4ca58bf645e66febbbe1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the Minister, I need to add to the opening of Part 4 that the question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00226e826e38fe3043a3b3cc68a39a3c0f35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e826e38fe3043a3b3cc68a39a3c0f35\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks very much, Madam Chair. Questions from the member in regards to clause 179A: the purpose of this clause is to clarify who is responsible for preparing the water services strategy, and clause 179A also clarifies\u2014as the member has asked about\u2014that if a council provider is only responsible for a minor aspect of water services, it doesn\u2019t need to prepare specific documents within Part 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe member asked for what a couple of examples of this would be. Well, a couple of examples would be a water supply for a small number of rural homes that are not connected to a water service network. It could also be in the case that a water services entity has a community facility\u2014something like a camping ground, for example, and the waste-water system connected to that camping ground is not connected to the broader waste-water system. Those are two real examples which would be relevant. The primary purpose in this clause is to acknowledge that with these minor aspects, you don\u2019t want to have onerous requirements on our councils in regard to those services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00223abd25e5230f473d86d80eabe885ab4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223abd25e5230f473d86d80eabe885ab4f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I\u2019d just like to say thank you to the Minister for that. That clarification is very helpful, and I think it gives exactly the examples I was after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want, now, to turn, in the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper, to clause 181(4). This is on page 167 of the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper. It\u2019s about what information the territorial authority has to provide and what information it can provide in an impact statement, and so on. But it says, \u201CTo avoid doubt, a territorial authority may include information about targeted rates for activities, or a group of activities, relating to water services\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s quite interesting. That clause was introduced in the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper, so it\u2019s entirely new to the House; it didn\u2019t get a select committee review. I\u2019m interested in that reference to targeted rates. Is this assuming that there is some capacity to charge targeted rates? Is that enabled by this bill elsewhere? Is it enabled by legislation elsewhere? Is this sitting there enabling targeted rates\u2014maybe it\u2019s targeted rates in respect of a particular set of services being provided? Maybe the targeted rates arise because having water services provided to a particular area increases the land value there. I\u2019d like to understand why we\u2019ve had this new clause introduced in the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper and why it focuses, in particular, on targeted rates. That\u2019s an interesting little wrinkle in here which we haven\u2019t had a chance to look at previously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7702a472ad44844b54d58777c41eccb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7702a472ad44844b54d58777c41eccb\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E In regard to clause 181, the primary purpose of that amendment is to clarify that territorial authorities may continue to include information around any targeted rate activities in a funding impact statement. The primary purpose there is to ensure that there is alignment with the Local Government Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u002217b77b2deea14b34b27d772368147d03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217b77b2deea14b34b27d772368147d03\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to ask the Minister about a very core part of this bill, and that is clause 187, which is on page 177 of the bill. It goes to the core of the bill, because it is about the content of the statement of expectations that shareholders\u2014i.e., the councils\u2014actually set for these water service entities. I\u2019m really interested to understand much more clearly the objectives of the bill itself and the scope of what can actually be included in these statements of expectations from the shareholders. Now, what is really clear is that the objectives set out a number of aspects when it comes to the provision of water services that are pretty basic\u2014like around reliability and about them being resilient\u2014and there is a clause in there about providing drinking water that is safe for consumers. But what I\u2019m proposing in my amendment\u2014sorry, I\u2019m not sure the number of my amendment, but it\u2019s on page 177, and it\u2019s on clause 187\u2014is to insert a new paragraph (g) and a new paragraph (h).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, paragraph (g) is that these statements of expectations should detail how the water organisation actually provides equitable access to water services, including upholding the human right of access to water. What I\u2019m interested in understanding from the Minister is whether that kind of expectation is within the scope of what could be in these statements of expectations. Can it be, essentially, as wide as the shareholders want them to be, particularly when it comes to the equitable access to water? Councils, in terms of being entities under the Local Government Act, have this duty of care to their ratepayers and to their citizens to actually provide for these fundamental things. I\u2019m interested in a response about that aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe second aspect that I\u2019m proposing in this amendment is to do with adverse effects on the environment. This is particularly in the context of the removal of the objective that the water service providers would provide water services that do not have adverse effects on the environment. Now, that was removed at the outset in terms of this umbrella direction for the bill, but I\u2019m wondering about, and proposing about, the statement of expectations setting out how adverse effects on the environment are being remedied, mitigated, or reduced throughout the water service provider area of interest. Again, I\u2019m unclear\u2014and I think a number of councils would be in this predicament as well\u2014as to how wide these statements of expectations could be, and I would really like to hear the Minister\u2019s comment as to what the scope of that involves. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00225eed460ad1ee4de5ac194e61d02bd3a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225eed460ad1ee4de5ac194e61d02bd3a1\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. When it comes to Part 4, which really is looking at those higher-level considerations, I don\u2019t share the same excitement as Dr Russell in this part, because, well, there\u2019s nothing in this bill that I\u2019m excited about, to be fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIf I can just turn to clause 179A\u2014and I do acknowledge the Minister of Local Government\u2019s response around what defines a minor aspect of a water service, and note that, actually, when it comes to 17A(3), it is listed there. But I do think it\u2019s really important, Minister, that the committee is able to get an understanding of the context around those two aspects. The two examples that are given there are, firstly, paragraph (a), \u201Cwastewater services for a community facility, such as a campground, that is not connected to a \u2026 network\u201D. Now, there are many campgrounds around the country. Some of them are publicly accessible; some are privately owned. When one defines a community facility, because that\u2019s the definition rather than the example that\u2019s given, what is the Minister\u2019s expectation around the sort of broad nature of a community facility and how that\u2019s captured?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe second one is around the water supply for a small number of rural homes. I think, actually, Dr Russell hit quite a salient point, in my mind, which is that, actually, you don\u2019t want to necessarily have a situation where a judge has to rely back on Hansard. When you talk about, Minister, \u201Ca small number of rural homes that are not connected to a water supply network\u201D\u2014and that\u2019s contained in the bill\u2014what sort of numbers are we talking about, because for some rural communities, a small number could be single digits, and for others it could be in double digits. I do think we need to get an understanding and some scope as to what would apply in this circumstance to fit that particular bill around paragraph (b). I think it is helpful to indicate that it\u2019s, for example, a small number of rural homes, not in an urban area, and they\u2019re not connected\u2014I get that, but what is to be expected as to what that number could feasibly look like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy other question was following up from my colleague Lan Pham\u2019s question around objectives, but my question comes from Schedule 3, which is associated to this part, because what we have there are some changes in the terminology. If we look at clause 2(1)\u2014this is the strategic matters as they relate to water services strategy\u2014there is the inclusion of \u201Coutcomes\u201D. OK, I understand that. Again there, further down, \u201Coutcomes\u201D, but for some strange reason \u201Cobjectives\u201D is removed from what is subclause (1)(b)(ii). Why is it that there is an inclusion or insertion of outcomes everywhere else, but\u2014you know, where are the objectives? Why are the objectives not required to be put into consideration for the purposes of section 15, that\u2019s referred to there? I think it would be very helpful for the Minister to indicate why objectives have disappeared\u2014no issue with \u201Coutcomes\u201D being inserted, but, for consistency, why is there a gap there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e22fc59487ec43d2b3ee3d10f6fb3874\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e22fc59487ec43d2b3ee3d10f6fb3874\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair. In regard to the two questions\u2014one from Lan Pham in regard to clauses 184 to 187, in regard to the discretion around what could be in the statements of expectations, and the Amendment Paper tabled by the member in regard to actual access to water, human rights, etc., for water. I refer the member\u2014and I acknowledge we\u2019ve already passed this\u2014to Part 2, clause 58C(3)(b), which outlines those specific points, so on that basis we won\u2019t be supporting that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regard to the points raised in regard to what is deemed small in the context of the examples provided, the primary aspect that drives that definition is the number of connections that are not connected as part of the broader system or network. There isn\u2019t a defined number, but in reality and in practice, generally any of those that aren\u2019t connected into the main system would be a small number, so it is simply whether it\u2019s connected or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00224a561c138d304746967f2de9e09f3f56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a561c138d304746967f2de9e09f3f56\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Also on Schedule\u00A03\u2014also not my favourite part of the bill\u2014I am interested in, again, clause 2, \u201CWater services strategy: strategic matters\u201D. Over the page\u2014and this is about paragraph (f), \u201Cfactors that water service providers expect will have a significant impact on the provider, including the following:\u201D. There is a list, and there are a couple of things I wanted to ask about. The first one is about paragraph\u00A0(i), \u201Cexpected changes to the population\u201D, and this seems like a very sensible thing to include, but I\u2019m wondering how this will happen without a census. That is my first question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMy second question is related to paragraph (g), which is \u201Cinformation relating to a territorial authority\u2019s resource management planning and land use planning in the \u2026 area,\u201D. What I\u2019m interested about in this is why both land use and resource management are talked about separately. I presume that most of what would be expected here is what a district plan says in terms of land-use rules, so you wouldn\u2019t normally need to split it from resource management planning; you can have one phase or the other. The role of territorial authorities in resource management is land-use planning. So why do you have both those things set out like that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, and apologies if I\u2019ve missed it somewhere else, I\u2019m particularly interested in what the territorial authorities\u2019 resource management planning is, because, of course, water services\u2014well, there\u2019s issues of where pipes and things go. Water discharge is given by the regional council, so that may be somewhere else. It may also be that perhaps the wider land-use planning is trying to bring in non-statutory spatial plans or other instruments that are looking at future investment in an area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIf the Minister could explain why there is that use of language, which seems quite peculiar, and if it is, in fact, to go well beyond what a district plan and relevant designations might say, or if it is actually about what\u2019s in the current Resource Management Act requirements. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00229e0bf6f7006647aa896104b088da794e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e0bf6f7006647aa896104b088da794e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I am sure there are others with more questions on Schedules 3 and 4 as well, in terms of the content of the water services strategy and also the content of the annual report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy question is pertaining to clause 197, and this is \u201CAmending water services strategy: territorial authority\u201D. Understanding, as part of the select committee process, an addition was added, which is subclause (5)\u2014essentially, the territorial authority, when there is an amendment in the water services strategy and the amendment is relevant to the authority\u2019s long-term plan (LTP), it need not have the amendment to the long-term plan audited under section 94. That was one of the recommendations from the select committee. However, two additional exemptions have been introduced by the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper, which is on the special consultative procedure\u2014which is sections 83, 83AA, and 83A of the Local Government Act, and also sections 93A and 93D. I just want to check with the Minister, in terms of the advice that has been received on why these two particular areas have been included as well alongside the auditing process. I guess, for the benefit of the doubt, section\u00A093A is also in reference to the use of special consultative procedures. Why does the special consultative procedure not need to be used if the territorial authority is amending the water services plan? That\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy second question is that it says over here that if the territorial authority amends its water services strategy, an amendment is relevant to the authority\u2019s long-term plan but not moving towards the longterm plan. Relevant just means that it relates to it; it can be either towards it or away from it. If we are opening it up to, let\u2019s say, the territorial authority amending its water services strategy away from the authority\u2019s long-term plan, how would that work then if the territorial authority need not use a special consultative procedure? I think there would be an expectation from the public that they would be consulted if the water strategy is moving away from the LTP. I guess my interpretation is that it is not the intention of clause 197(5) and the introduction of the exemption from the special consultative procedure, but I just want to hear it from the Minister\u2014that that is the intent of the newly introduced clause 197(5)(c)(i) and (ii).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022bec234af00924bd39359760394f64e22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bec234af00924bd39359760394f64e22\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Another thing that I\u2019ve found interesting in the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper\u2014it\u2019s kind of a tiny-ish point but I think it is interesting, so I want to direct the committee\u2019s attention to clause 191. It\u2019s on pages 172 and 173 of the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper 346. Again, it\u2019s to do with something that has been inserted by the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to go to clause 191(4A)(c). There\u2019s a very small phrase that has been inserted there: \u201Cpreparing or relying on\u201D. What is worrying me\u2014well, not worrying me, but I\u2019m intrigued by it, I guess, and I want to understand it\u2014is that doesn\u2019t seem to fit with the other subclauses there. The interim arrangements for a water services strategy may include any of the following: they may include, in paragraph (a), the relevant parts of the long-term plan of each territorial authority. They may include\u2014this is in paragraph (b)\u2014the relevant parts of the water services strategy, and they may include preparing or relying on any other business planning or budgetary documents. Now, Dr\u00A0XuNan, you will enjoy this. Of course, paragraphs (a) and (b) there are nouns, and paragraph (c) is a verb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1ed8341c7d9478c872e54dc51f97880\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d68a37a937470e8b993b99d500399e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Right. I thought you might have picked up on that one. It\u2019s just a slight change there. Those first two things are specifying documents that may be relied on\u2014they are specifying entities that actually exist\u2014but paragraph (c) says that the interim arrangements may engage in an activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, those are actually different things, of a different nature, so it seems odd to include them in that kind of list. I want to understand why that particular change was introduced. It\u2019s not just to do with the grammatical pedantry of nouns versus verbs; it\u2019s to do with shifting from relying on documents and strategies that have been prepared or using those relevant parts of those plans to actually performing an action. If the Minister could explain why an action has been included in a list of those things? Perhaps it\u2019s just a drafting nicety. Perhaps there is something more to this. A little bit of clarification there would be very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00227ac0acd1972245c096cb25c9417cbf80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ac0acd1972245c096cb25c9417cbf80\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to pick up on clause 185, and this really details the statement of expectations that an entity would be required to get under way. Clause 185, basically, outlines a range of different steps, including, actually, additional information that should be contained. One of the subsequent changes further on, in clause 188, is basically just combining\u2014the water organisation constitution has been struck out alongside, if they don\u2019t have a constitution, the rules or the various procedures that establish or direct or govern them. That\u2019s been struck out, and basically, there is a fulsome definition being given as \u201Cfoundation documents\u201D. OK, that\u2019s fine, and what the entity needs to do, as I understand it, in preparing its statement of expectations, is that it can include aspects that, basically, are not in contradiction to the foundation documents, under subclause (4).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe question that I have for the Minister, relative to clause 185, is: how does he intend, or how does the Government intend, that these newly established entities or organisations are not going to be overwhelmed by the immediate nature of the planning obligations? I\u2019m only giving the statement of expectations as one example. What are his expectations that these entities who will be faced with pulling together these foundation documents, as they\u2019re now going to be called, are not going to be initially overwhelmed with the expectations and the requirements around that\u2014only relative to the statement of expectations\u2014and, I guess, also what the Minister\u2019s expectations around the meaningful aspect of engagement would be as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the specified content, and the items that must be included, they\u2019re contained in clause 187. Now, my question for the Minister, who, through his Amendment Paper\u2014or, actually, what is sought to be inserted there, a change, is a new component there, which is the new paragraph\u00A0(ba). This states: \u201Cexpectations relating to the strategic priorities to be included in the water organisation\u2019s water services strategy\u201D. My question is: why is that needed? They need to have a water strategy, absolutely, but why do you need to insert it in there, because isn\u2019t effect to those strategic priorities and documents going to be captured in the other aspects that will, effectively, be needed under what is clause 187 in its current form?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022d87c11360b42464fbceb21e2a410bdd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d87c11360b42464fbceb21e2a410bdd0\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E In regard to the question previously, on clause 197, the purpose of that clause is if a territorial authority amends its water services strategy and the amendments are also relevant to its long-term plan, it can consequentially amend the plan and then members do not need to be audited under the Local Government Act. The reason why that amendment is there is because it was identified subsequently that a number of changes were going to be necessary, and as a result of that, if they weren\u2019t audited, then the councils or the entities, in effect, would get a qualified opinion. It is simply reflecting the fact that that, obviously, isn\u2019t the intended outcome of that, and because it\u2019s consequential, then the material level around that wouldn\u2019t be appropriate, so hence why we\u2019ve made that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regard to the questions before, as I noted previously in a response, in regard to clauses 184 to clause 187\u2014obviously, including 185 in the middle there\u2014the discretion of these amendments is primarily around what can be concluded in a statement of expectations. The member asked what is my expectation? Well, my expectation is that the organisations\u2019 boards can set and will set their strategic priorities. We\u2019re simply giving it discretion in terms of how they go about it and what information, in that context, they put into that. But, you know, the concern that the member raised around them being overwhelmed, etc.\u2014the purpose of clauses 184 and 187 gives shareholders more discretion in terms of what they can include in that, and that would mitigate any risks, in our view, and give the flexibility required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022c76bd5267b6f44879a9d8bee37482d18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c76bd5267b6f44879a9d8bee37482d18\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to turn my attention to clause 196, and the particular subclauses I want to refer to are on page 178 of the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper 346. These are subclauses (8), (9), and (10). The whole clause concerns itself with the process for making water services strategy and so on, but subclauses (8), (9), and (10) are entirely new. They\u2019re inserted by the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper. That\u2019s quite a lot of new material. Now, it could be that they have been transferred from elsewhere in the bill as it was reported back from the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014that the drafters felt these particular subclauses perhaps fitted better in clause 196 rather than elsewhere in the bill, or something like that. If so, could the Minister direct us to where they came from? That could be one explanation for why we have got three entirely new subclauses, taking up almost half a page.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThen, what these particular subclauses go to are consultation around any proposals that are to do with transferring control of a strategic water asset or receiving a strategic water asset and so on, or making a significant change to the level of service. Now, those are quite big activities for a water services organisation to engage in\u2014acquiring assets. We\u2019re not talking of just any old assets but a strategic water services asset and so on, or making a significant change to the level of service provided in relation to any water service. Public consultation must be undertaken on it. That seems entirely reasonable, but why insert it so late in the process? Why did this come about so late in the process\u2014that we only thought quite late in the process that we might want to do some public consultation on that? That was in subclause (8).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt must be undertaken by the shareholders or the organisation\u2014that\u2019s fine; that\u2019s in subclause\u00A0(9)\u2014but then subclause (10) is interesting: \u201CA water organisation must ensure that its significance and engagement policy addresses all matters necessary for determining\u2014(a) whether a water services asset is a strategic water services asset; and (b) whether a proposed change to the level of service is a significant change; and (c) how to comply with subsections (8) and (9).\u201D It\u2019s, basically, saying that a water services organisation has got to get its act together and have a wee think about what its strategic assets are and what the level of service is. I want to understand from the Minister what we think might be a strategic water services asset\u2014whether that is elsewhere defined in the Act. If the Minister could give some examples of what a strategic water services asset might be? Again, \u201Ca proposed change\u201D, \u201Cwhether a proposed change to the level of service is a significant change;\u201D\u2014I\u2019d like to have some understanding of what the Minister thinks would be a significant level of change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI was going to say that I\u2019d like to know what was in the Minister\u2019s mind on that, but I always regard minds as private places. People can have their own thoughts inside their head, but if the Minister could share his thinking around what a significant change could be? I do also want to know why these subclauses ended up in the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper as quite significant new subclauses at such a late stage in the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002230ceafc3387148e2b4efa47470346be8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230ceafc3387148e2b4efa47470346be8\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019m glad for members that what\u2019s going through my mind right now is not in the scope of this bill, so I won\u2019t be conferring on that. But in regards to clause 196, which is in the Amendment Paper, which covers the process for preparing a water organisation\u2019s water services strategy, primarily the purpose here\u2014and the member asked: why were those new requirements added in there? Primarily, to align with the additions that were made in Part 2, recognising that these policies may include requirements for community consultation on proposals in a draft strategy\u2014that\u2019s why you\u2019re seeing these amendments in this clause, but they link back to Part 2 of the bill, which we\u2019ve already covered this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other element of clause 196 is relevant to the member\u2019s point around significance etc., around when consulting with its shareholders. It is primarily in this context that where that is owned by the trustees of a consumer trust, then they must also consult with each territorial authority in the district the water organisation operates in. That\u2019s just simply acknowledging that some consumer trusts that own potentially some of these assets may have a wider coverage than one territorial authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00221459fd5d2cc04494b1bb5a1690a3c731\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221459fd5d2cc04494b1bb5a1690a3c731\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I actually have a very quick question for the Minister of Local Government. Again, we\u2019re looking at a newly introduced section of this, which is clause 213, \u201CCharges as security\u201D. I\u2019m going to focus on the particular definition that I found intriguing for this, because I understand that under subclause (7) of clause 213 of Amendment Paper 346, three new definitions have been introduced: \u201Cincidental arrangement\u201D, \u201Cloan\u201D, and \u201Cproperty\u201D. Now, \u201Cincidental arrangement\u201D and \u201Cloan\u201D have specific meanings within the Local Government Act, but \u201Cproperty\u201D, on the other hand, has a very explicit meaning that is for the purpose, I\u2019m assuming, of this clause 213. However, at this stage I couldn\u2019t, unless the Minister has it memorised\u2014there\u2019s no explicit definition I can see that also alters the meaning of the term \u201Cproperty\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ENow, understanding, under statutory interpretation, that if there is a prior definition of \u201Cproperty\u201D that is introduced under an earlier clause, in statutory interpretation it takes precedence over the definition introduced for the purpose of a specific clause. But over here, when we\u2019re looking at \u201Cproperty\u201D as a definition and also the subsequent use of \u201Cproperty\u201D in other parts, can I just check with the Minister that there is an alternative definition of \u201C property\u201D that isn\u2019t going to be conflating with the definition of the \u201Cproperty\u201D under \u201CCharges as security\u201D\u2014that, in this case, \u201Cproperty\u201D is only specifically for the purpose of 213 and will not also apply to subsequent clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8255699b9b44bdea8b12f20e57d3910\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8255699b9b44bdea8b12f20e57d3910\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E I want to thank the Minister for his earlier answer acknowledging the role of community consultation, because I did have a question around that, but I won\u2019t ask it, given that he\u2019s answered that\u2014particularly around the shareholders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI wanted to look at clauses 197, 198, and 199. This relates to amending a water services strategy by either a territorial authority, firstly, in 197, or then, in 198, by the water organisations themselves. Now, what we see there is a proposed addition in clause 197(2A) that basically cites the relevance of the territorial authority\u2019s significance and engagement policy. Councils have this, obviously, all around the country, and its special consultative process is engaged from time to time. What\u2019s interesting there, Minister, is that it talks about the fact that if there was a significant amendment that\u2019s proposed to the strategy, then that significance and engagement policy of the local authority may assist the council in reaching its determination around whether it\u2019s significant or not, rather than must\u2014I would have thought if it was a significant amendment, that that would be a given. The point of difference, of course, is with clause 198, where it\u2019s the water organisation itself. Basically, they do need to consider the organisation\u2019s own significance and engagement policy. My question for the Minister is: is that a requirement for the organisation, whereas it\u2019s a guide for the council? There\u2019s a distinctive difference there, and I think that\u2014well, the Minister is nodding, so I think I\u2019ll leave that there. I think he gets my question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other one is on clause 199, which relates to the auditing process\u2014and Dr Russell might be interested in this. I was interested in\u2014and it might be elsewhere perhaps, and, if so, the Minister can cite that\u2014the consequences of failing to comply with the aspects of audit. This is, effectively, where there is a request through to the Auditor-General to undertake some sort of statutory responsibility there, but is that just basically the Minister clarifying the reasons or aspects that would lead to triggering that, and that any consequential penalty provisions are seen as separate, or do you see them working, somehow, hand in hand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002282eccd8e7ac44d0aa4fd423b4975bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282eccd8e7ac44d0aa4fd423b4975bd9e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E To the member\u2019s question in regard to clause 199, the primary purpose there is intended to ensure that the Auditor-General has sufficient notice of the requests and can manage the associated workload. That is the purpose of that clause, and that\u2019s the intended purpose of that change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022861d8868c3ca4694bec1dedf2e0e62f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022861d8868c3ca4694bec1dedf2e0e62f1\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022324feccbcbfb425eb67b58c994d2c426\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229fd79cd85cb9462da396ab997a31b002\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fd79cd85cb9462da396ab997a31b002\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 4 set out on Amendment Paper 346 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022844a160abed64ed58e8e94e7f6e4d728\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022853826b4a2a24104a37a6b03374263cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022853826b4a2a24104a37a6b03374263cc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 187(1) to insert paragraphs (g) and (h) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229ac8f725699745dcab14b55b05e44e2e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002200cce906e9e24a9aa6a7602d279bcf20\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002273a6e0a017cc4640a1673b2c376c642c\u0022\u003EPart 5  Amendments to other legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229c385069983940859e48323334053f64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c385069983940859e48323334053f64\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the debate on Part 5. Part 5 is the debate on clauses 215 to 343, \u201CAmendments to other legislation\u201D, and Schedules 5 to 11. The question is that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00221b1b61db4bb149c88c097d13bc115bf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b1b61db4bb149c88c097d13bc115bf9\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a very interesting part because it seeks to amend other pieces of legislation, and each of them can be dealt with, potentially, in isolation, so I want to just slowly work through the first few of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe first one, which is clause 215, basically indicates that it amends the Civil Defence Emergency Management Act 2002. My first question to the Minister of Local Government in terms of clause\u00A0216\u2014which cites replacing \u201CWatercare Services Limited\u201D with \u201Ca water organisation\u201D in each of those places, which is rather generic in that regard\u2014is how the Minister intends to give assurances, under that piece of legislation, that any consequential amendments to the legislation do not basically dilute aspects of emergency management that sit with local territorial authorities. This is a key component of the work that local territorial authorities do. Whilst it might, just on first glance, perhaps, appear that this is just basically taking out one definition and replacing it somewhere else but multiple times over, none the less it is a change to that primary legislation. So my question for the Minister on that one is: can he give some assurances that it will not dilute or interfere with the emergency management provisions or roles that councils may undertake, and, if it does, then what actually might those individual aspects be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOn clause 216, I want to make sure that\u2014in emergency sort of circumstances where councils may initiate certain directives under that particular piece of legislation, there are often emergency funding provisions that exist. Can the Minister give an assurance, under what\u2019s proposed here in 216, that there are some safeguards to ensure that there is no ability for any emergency funding provisions that would be available to councils to be directed elsewhere as a result of this change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022152a26f39cc24b2dbb43e8d97b43715a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022152a26f39cc24b2dbb43e8d97b43715a\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The points raised in regards to clauses 215 and 216 on the Civil Defence Emergency Management Act 2002 simply recognise that with the introduction of new water services entities, there is a need to extend the permanent legislative authority mechanism to all of those new water services entities. In particular, the member is referring to clause 216. In the scenario where an event occurs, then those water services entities have the ability to apply for reimbursement from Government in relation to emergency management costs, without having to go back through their local authority. That is the purpose of that, because, obviously, you don\u2019t want a duplicated process in regards to that provision, and it simply acknowledges and will support the financial separation between the local authorities and the water services organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00222dc7c5a16c9a4d5698e92af44aee84ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dc7c5a16c9a4d5698e92af44aee84ce\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I have a question on this subpart as well, around the amendment to the Civil Defence Emergency Management Act 2002. I have only one question, because my colleague Tangi Utikere is much more familiar with the source legislation than I am. Nevertheless, it is intriguing around the drafting, because everywhere \u201CWatercare Services Limited\u201D is being replaced with \u201Ca water organisation\u201D in each place. Now, Watercare Services, of course, is the Auckland water entity, and now every single water services entity is, as it were, stepping into the place which Watercare Services held, including Watercare Services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s like the drafter has said, \u201CHere\u2019s the civil defence legislation. We have some rules in here which we put in for Watercare Services. We don\u2019t actually need to do anything for these new water entities. We can just pull out \u2018Watercare Services\u2019 and plug in the new water organisations.\u201D That, on the surface of it, looks like a reasonable thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat I just want to understand from the Minister is what work his officials did to be sure that the simple \u201Cpull out, plug in\u201D has actually captured the nuances that are needed for the new water organisations, with respect to civil defence. It looks like a straightforward thing to do; I\u2019m sure it is. Well, I hope it\u2019s the right thing to do, but, of course, Watercare Services was a very specific entity and there was legislation in the civil defence rules or law just for Watercare, but now it\u2019s going to cover a whole lot of what could end up being quite different organisations in terms of size, scale, and where they operate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want an assurance that was the appropriate way to deal with it\u2014that it was better to do that than, say, to set up a new set of laws with respect to all these new water organisations. With great respect, many of them are not going to operate in the same way as Watercare Services. They don\u2019t cover the same number of people. They certainly have complex operations. They will, in many cases, cover larger territories with many fewer ratepayers. There will be all sorts of differences between these new organisations and Watercare Services. I\u2019d like a bit of assurance around that, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae829c7371ef4e7294155f5e1449d2e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae829c7371ef4e7294155f5e1449d2e9\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, I\u2019m happy to give the member assurance in that context. As I noted before, what this is simply reflecting is that there is financial separation between the new water services entities and the local authorities that previously would have had these services activities within them. As a result of that, these services are now within a new water services entity. It seems appropriate and reasonable that in the event of an emergency event, then that would be the entity to which it would look to seek reimbursement from Government in regards to emergency management costs related to activities that they undertake. That\u2019s simply what this clause is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00223353782cf4334cf1bcc76dfa804c70f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223353782cf4334cf1bcc76dfa804c70f7\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a number of questions to do with Part 5, Subpart 2, the amendments to the Commerce Act. As my colleague Tangi Utikere has said, this is an interesting part, particularly for the amendments that are made to other Acts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe guts of the question isn\u2019t about whether the Commerce Commission is the appropriate regulator\u2014we have had that debate. It was possible that this would be another regulator with more expertise in infrastructure, but we\u2019ve chosen the Commerce Act to couch this in, so I\u2019m going to ask the Minister questions about the definition of \u201Cconsumer\u201D here\u2014about how a working definition of \u201Cconsumer\u201D in the Commerce Act is about people when they are engaging in sort of retail purchases; people who might expect a higher level of protection because of the sort of market power that exists between them and the people they are buying from, whether it\u2019s small or large sized businesses. When you\u2019re interacting in a market as an individual or as a household, you\u2019re expected to have little market power. That\u2019s relevant to the definition of consumer here, because we have used \u201Cconsumer\u201D for water services entities, but, obviously, people who use water services, businesses that use water services, manufacturers that use water services, are a broader range of entities. We need to make sure that, in framing it in the Commerce Act, we have given full effect to the way that the regulator will be expected to consider the relative power, the relative weighting, and the relative ability of that sort of entity to interact with local authorities and with the regulator. That\u2019s one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested in the differences between the Amendment Paper and what was initially proposed for this part. One of those seems to be to section 53ZG(1), which clarifies the way the different sort of regulated powers interact with each other. Really, the point of this question is that this is a pretty novel way to use a Commerce Act power for a regulator. There are four types of regulated information going on here. The Minister will be very familiar with price-quality path and price path regulation, but to also require a regulator in the same sector to use performance requirement and revenue threshold regulation at the same time seems, to me, to be novel. I want him to step the committee through what this might be comparable to in our law and whether the Commerce Act does fit this well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EEssentially, what we\u2019re really asking the regulator to do\u2014the task here of the regulator\u2014is an infrastructure regulation like, say, regulated airports, regulated ports, where you have a regulated monopoly that has a way of levying people\u2014you and I\u2014for its reasonable costs, and its job is to spread those costs reasonably over time and over users. Because it\u2019s in the Commerce Act, we now have to create four different mechanisms to get to pricing quality, which you might not expect of, say, an infrastructure regulator. It would be useful if the Minister could step us through those two before I ask any more questions on this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002230492ec9a0e848f5b2796df1517bbb83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230492ec9a0e848f5b2796df1517bbb83\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for this question. What you\u2019re seeing here, in the context of the changes being made, reflects a high degree of complexity as a result of now having, in effect, different types of water components within water services. You\u2019ve got waste water, you\u2019ve got fresh water, and in some instances a water services entity may also have responsibility for stormwater, but not in all cases, such as Watercare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhat this is simply signalling\u2014and while there\u2019s regulation for airports and other entities such as this, in this context it\u2019s just simply recognising that from a consumer point of view, that consumer in the context of water services needs to be adequately protected and treated fairly by, in effect, what will be a water services entity, which is a regulated entity, and they do need to be treated fairly in that regard. It provides the Commerce Commission in this instance with the tools and mechanisms such as information-gathering powers to promote, in effect, a mechanism that is sufficient for it to undertake its activities, which in this case\u2014relating to water services\u2014is around revenue recovery or ensuring that our infrastructure investment is undertaken in an efficient manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the mechanisms which are in here. It\u2019s a new area of regulation and a new area of services that is being regulated in a New Zealand context. It is more complex than other regulated entities and hence that is what is outlined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002234f5d23a8cbd4b98a9d0b3ad66c2b713\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234f5d23a8cbd4b98a9d0b3ad66c2b713\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much to the Minister for that fulsome answer; that\u2019s really helpful. The question, then, I think remains: who is a consumer under this legislation, and how should local authorities give effect to those people who would not usually be defined as a consumer in the consumer legislation that we have? They\u2019re not people and they\u2019re not households; they\u2019re industrial-sized users. Other market participants here wouldn\u2019t usually be covered by the Commerce Commission\u2019s powers, so I\u2019m asking the Minister to help us to understand that definition in section 52C, amended by clause 221(1).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s really helpful for us to understand that these are now sort of four different parts of regulation that the Commerce Commission will have to use across the different types of water. Do they all apply to each type of water, or can we be clearer under clause 220(2A)(a), (b), (c), (d), and (e) which applies to what type of water, because that would be useful. That would step out local authorities\u2019 understanding of what principles they will be regulated on, particularly the new threshold regulation and the price quality path, if those don\u2019t apply to some sorts of water services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022aac935e20c6d4817a2e184e6f4965f9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aac935e20c6d4817a2e184e6f4965f9a\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I mean, as I noted before, the provisions that are there provide flexibility to the Commerce Commission (ComCom) to deal with the specific construction of the relevant water services entity. In this case, there will be a wide range of ways in which these water services entities are constructed and what are included within them, and hence the purposes of these provisions to provide enough flexibility for the ComCom to be able to adjust their style appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other question that was asked was in regards to \u201CWhat is a consumer?\u201D, and this was actually covered in prior parts. I acknowledge the member may have missed that earlier on, but in this context, it\u2019s around the account holder. The account holder is, in effect, in this model, the one that is liable for water charges and is, in that context, the entity in which it\u2019s seen as the consumer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022417f74fc92d942d29fc630f94350bea0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022417f74fc92d942d29fc630f94350bea0\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I just have a final question on Subpart 1 before I think we\u2019re all ready to move on to Subpart 2 and beyond\u2014final question in terms of the Civil Defence Emergency Management Act 2002. I hear what the Minister is saying in terms of they\u2019ll provide financial separation between local authorities and water organisations\u2014I think that\u2019s really important\u2014which will also, hopefully, encourage and support consumer trusts owned by water organisations. I guess my question here is: with that separation, one of the challenges would be that the current threshold application is not appropriate in the context of financial independence. What are the Minister\u2019s thoughts or what has the Minister received in terms of advice around the methodical approach to calculate the threshold, which would need to be revisited to ensure it\u2019s suitable for both council and water organisations, to ensure that there is a level of equability, I guess? If the Minister\u2014it\u2019s a very small question\u2014wouldn\u2019t mind answering in terms of the recalibration of the calculation for the threshold with the separation between local authorities and water organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002242ff02db0b324787a3004bc42554871d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242ff02db0b324787a3004bc42554871d\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, and I\u2019m just looking at my colleagues from the Greens, because I know that they\u2019ve written about this in their differing view. I\u2019ve moved right ahead to Subpart 7, and they might want to come back to this in a minute as well. This seems to be an enormous change to the Resource Management Act (RMA) and one that is not mentioned in the Finance and Expenditure Committee report, that I haven\u2019t heard discussed in the debates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWhat it is doing is\u2014and I\u2019m afraid I have not got my internet on my phone working very well, because I have not gone to see the Water Services Act 2021 and the definitions that are now being referred to in this bill to be incorporated into the Resource Management Act. As a result of that, we are going to have an infrastructure design solution, a stormwater environmental performance standard, and a waste-water environmental performance standard that can then alter totally how the Resource Management Act works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWhere you would normally need a resource consent for something, there\u2019s now\u2014if it\u2019s allowed by one of these three things\u2014an infrastructure design solution or a stormwater environmental performance standard or a waste-water environmental standard; then it\u2019s allowed. We have these exemptions in the Resource Management Act for things that are already provided in a national environmental standard. But that is an instrument that is made under the Resource Management Act and is subject to the purpose of the Resource Management Act. The purpose of the Resource Management Act is sustainable management, and, as we know, there are environmental requirements in the RMA, but this bill, somewhat innocuously, in Part 5\u2014when the Government members are trying to shut down the debate\u2014in Subpart 7, suddenly amends the Resource Management Act in a way that appears to be very significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI would like to know from the Minister of Local Government, if I am correct that these are significant changes to the Resource Management Act, that if these Water Services Act 2021 instruments are now actually going to perform as if they were Resource Management Act instruments, and if these Water Services Act 2021 instruments have any environmental requirements to them, how will they have to align with the purpose of the Resource Management Act\u2014that is, sustainable management\u2014or will they be something lesser that enables more pollution? Is that the point here\u2014that these new organisations will be able to discharge stormwater and waste water in a way that the Resource Management Act wouldn\u2019t allow for? Does the use of these performance standards mean that there will be more pollution? That is even when we\u2019ve just been here debating clauses of the Resource Management Act being amended. I could briefly touch on that as well, because there are changes to provisions around designations and other things, that just a couple of hours ago we were voting on. I\u2019m interested in how the two bills progressing in the committee stage, both changing similar parts of the RMA, will interact. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022562d7dbb2568423c99c5b3f674231034\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022562d7dbb2568423c99c5b3f674231034\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wish to provide assurance to the member in regards to her questions. The points that are included there simply reflect that this bill has a new mechanism for the establishment of mandatory national engineering design standards to ensure consistent and effective design and construction of water network infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe bill also amends the Water Services Act to provide for making regulations that are set for infrastructure design solutions in regards to waste water or stormwater infrastructure. An example of that is in the instance of a standardised modular waste-water treatment plant or components of that waste-water treatment plant. The question asked was: is that going to lead to increases in pollution or other aspects? Well, the water quality standards, including the discharge standards, are set by the independent water quality regulator, so that has no consequential difference. That regulator maintains national standards separate to the discussion we\u2019re having. We\u2019re simply acknowledging that the establishment of these new aspects under this bill which have a relationship with the Resource Management Act\u2014we\u2019re simply reflecting those interrelationships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022686b373f776e4b05a6dd9ca4c219ce5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022686b373f776e4b05a6dd9ca4c219ce5e\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to this very substantive part of the bill. I wanted to pick up on the Minister\u2019s comments just then about those single set standards that sit outside of this regulation but are given effect to in Part 5, Subpart\u00A07, and he was basically saying they\u2019re inconsequential. Now, what we\u2019re hearing and what we\u2019ve heard very clearly from submissions was really quite the opposite, and I wanted to touch specifically on Selwyn District Council\u2019s submission. They described the aspects in these sections when it comes to the single standards of waste water and stormwater performance standards, effectively removing \u201Cthe ability for [the] Council to impose any community informed rules or standards, even where those rules are more restrictive due to local environmental needs.\u201D They also talked about being really concerned about a lack of local oversight leading to potentially \u201Cworse environmental outcomes due to a lack of appreciation for local conditions, issues or nuances.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, what I\u2019d really like to hear from the Minister\u2014because I know that the rationale that was presented to us as part of the Finance and Expenditure Committee was that the standards themselves have been landed on because they\u2019re taking this kind of risk-based approach. I\u2019m interested in that risk-based approach, because the information that we were given talked about these environmental limits being set to a higher standard for low-mixing environments\u2014areas such as estuaries\u2014to help manage these potential adverse effects, and then to a lower standard for high-mixing water environments, so things like rivers or along the coast. What I\u2019m interested in understanding is: is that respective or irrespective of the current state of the receiving environment? That is the problem that these councils are trying to draw our attention to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI also want to touch on Environment Canterbury\u2019s submission\u2014this is the regional council for Waitaha Canterbury\u2014because they really spell it out very clearly when they give the specific example of the Christchurch Wastewater Treatment Plant and they talk about the limits for both enterococci and ammoniacal nitrogen that are more lenient than the current limits that are set in Canterbury. What they\u2019re particularly concerned about here is the sensitive estuary and harbour environments. They give this example, that the current consent for the Christchurch City Council is no more than 75 percent of weekly samples in an eight-week period exceeding 1,000 coliform units of enterococci and no more than 25 percent exceeding 5,000. Now, the proposed single limits which will be given effect to in this part of the bill, which is new, is proposing 40,000 coliform units of enterococci standards 90 percent of the time. They\u2019re using this example to demonstrate how much more strict current limits are, and I\u2019m struggling to see the justification for putting these single standards\u2014giving effect to them\u2014in this bill when we know, particularly, that 60 percent of our waste-water consents are coming up for renewal in the next 10 years; 20 percent of those are already expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe section that I\u2019m particularly concerned about with this and which I\u2019m proposing amendments to is clause 269. I\u2019m proposing to replace new section 58JA(2), where it says the section \u201Capplies whether the rule is more or less stringent than the wastewater environmental performance standard\u201D\u2014to delete \u201Cmore\u201D, because that is basically giving the ability for them to be set much higher, so we really want to get rid of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002261eadcea03bc47f0a95ce8105a13dbb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261eadcea03bc47f0a95ce8105a13dbb2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House is suspended until 9 a.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508137927b7bfb3714688a3df60e0df9f84bf000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9:57 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a238d5d9500743a1b492e7e8b942da7c\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 13 AUGUST 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e89c3733b3943cf95f2e0c687e873c5\u0022\u003E(continued on 14 August 2025)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229dad16bc957d4caa9e274385b58151d1\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Water Services) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b4a73139e074944b00de5064120dc6d\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c42139765f7474594e31852a0d1fbeb\u0022\u003EPart 5  Amendments to other legislation (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002286c9bf11a61d436e8f932a9db6b11d48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286c9bf11a61d436e8f932a9db6b11d48\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. The committee is resumed on the Local Government (Water Services) Bill. When we were considering the bill last night, we were on Part 5. This is the debate on clauses 215 to 343, \u201CAmendments to other legislation\u201D, and Schedules 5 to 11. The question is, again, that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00222597914fabc74a45b343403cea103b73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222597914fabc74a45b343403cea103b73\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As at 9.55 p.m. yesterday evening, the Minister of Local Government dropped another amendment on the table. We thought at the time, \u201CWell, that\u2019s pretty unusual, having a tabled amendment dropped\u201D\u2014not exactly at the 11th hour; it was the 10th hour by then I suppose; we might call it that, who knows? And so we thought, \u201CWell, what is going to be in this tabled amendment?\u201D\u2014we\u2019d gotten word that it was going to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWe now have it in front of us. The \u201CHon Simon Watts, in Committee, to move the following amendments:\u201D clause 273(3A)\u2014in clause 273(3A), new subclause (2EA), replace 2EA, page 242, with (2EAAA); and in clause 347(3), to delete clause 347(3) on page 283. So not a particularly exciting amendment, but given that it was dropped at the very last minute, I wonder if the Minister in the chair, the Hon Scott Simpson, could explain why we needed to have this particular tabled amendment dropped on the table at 9.55 p.m. as we were debating this bill. It seems quite an extraordinary thing to do at this stage of proceedings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00220675422c3bab425194904cdce9ebecde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220675422c3bab425194904cdce9ebecde\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Well, far be it from me, Mr Chair, to cast doubt upon the role of the Minister to put the amendment in at that hour, but clarity and certainty is important and that\u2019s what this amendment seeks to achieve, and I\u2019m sure the member will understand the necessity for those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00221e097369d42444809bc0c4db7e027e0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e097369d42444809bc0c4db7e027e0a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I thank the Minister for his brief clarity in that regard. What I find really interesting is, at a moment when the only contributions Government members were seeking as part of committee stage were closures, they were seeking closures at the same time as this Amendment Paper was basically landing on the Table. So that\u2019s a new one for transparency as part of process, isn\u2019t it? That\u2019s a new one for transparency as part of process: to land an Amendment Paper that has been tabled at 5 minutes to 10\u2014and I think, actually, the committee of the whole House rose at about 4 minutes to 10, or thereabouts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c56baa9af3040aaa48bb143282720fd\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the bill!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a9500ee266e4821b2ea3d47aa77dd09\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is about the bill because it means, actually, that we didn\u2019t know what this was about at potentially the same time that we would have been voting on something that was actually not there. So that is certainly a new one for transparency. But I do thank the Minister for providing that clarity there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, there is, however, an Amendment Paper in my name that was lodged back in July, and what that does is it provides an opportunity to amend Schedule 5, and so we are looking at Schedule 5 as part of Part 5 of the bill. So my question to the Minister is, well, firstly, whether he intends to throw his support behind my Amendment Paper. For the benefit of the committee, this basically seeks to initiate some date changes. It is one date change, but it does, none the less, relate through the remainder the schedule. It\u2019s specifically related to clause 29 when it comes to the new Part 6, which would be inserted into Schedule 1AA of the Commerce Act 1986. The rationale for promoting this change, basically replacing the date 1 July 2026 with 1 July 2027 is to effectively give councils more time. What we are seeing, clearly, is a huge number of entities that have been identified in these water services delivery plans that are expected to be with the Minister in the first week of September, and it\u2019s not that far away. The numbers of individual entities far surpass the expectations of the Government, which is really causing them a bit of grief. So I\u2019m happy to help them out and just give them a little bit more time to perhaps delay the implementation of this so that they can just think things through a little bit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo, my question to the Minister is: Amendment Paper 342, which seeks to amend Schedule 5, effectively delaying the implementation of this because, clearly, what has been proposed by the Government is not working; it is making things worse, and that\u2019s before it\u2019s actually even gotten under way\u2014so, Minister, please indulge us in terms of your support for the Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022140cc2373b564fe39cf9c78442bc1921\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022140cc2373b564fe39cf9c78442bc1921\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E The short answer to the member\u2019s question is no. And the irony of that member, a member of his party, trying to talk about transparency on this day of all days is not lost on the committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u002218d4489380b045ea9071e824723d096f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218d4489380b045ea9071e824723d096f\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I would like to look specifically on page 247, and this is clause 269. This is about the proposed waste-water and stormwater environmental performance standards. Now, this was an area that we started to touch on just at the very end of last night. In fact, I was in the middle of talking about this when the House had to rise, so I would really like to return here because I was only part-way through my questions for the Minister. And just a point of order on that, Mr Chair: are there questions already noted from last night from that aspect or do I need to revisit any of those to make sure they are answered this morning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244742ab32c0c47fa85b28d978accb4c0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019d probably be safer. The Chair will ensure you get the time to revisit. Given that there is actually a new Minister in the chair, it would probably be the best way to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203d9fea4858044c885d166359373dc33\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Excellent. Thank you so much for clarifying that. So the first aspect that I\u2019m really keen to hear from the Minister about is on new section 58JA(2), inserted by clause 269. Really this is about these set standards that are actually proposed outside of this legislation but which are given effect to in Part 5, Subpart 7. The setting of these standards is such that my understanding\u2014I\u2019d like clarity from the Minister on whether they are respective or irrespective on the current state of the receiving environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, the justification with these standards is that they are in some way tailored in that there are different categories, essentially, of receiving environments, whether that be high-flow areas, so more like in our oceans or rivers, or low-mixing environments like estuaries and perhaps lower-flow rivers. It\u2019s been unclear in our deliberations on this as part of the select committee process how much impact the current state of the receiving environment actually has on those standards, and so I\u2019m really keen on hearing about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m proposing as part of my tabled amendment is actually to have this subsection apply only where the rule is less stringent than the waste-water environmental performance standard or the stormwater environmental performance standard. That would basically have the effect of having those standards\u2014proposed and given effect to by this legislation\u2014only prevail where the rule is actually less stringent than the standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe example that I gave with addressing that came from Environment Canterbury when they talked in their submission about the Christchurch waste-water discharge for the city and how these standards basically take many, many times greater than what is currently permitted. We heard concern about this not just from Environment Canterbury but across local government, and concern about the water quality of the receiving environments, be that the rivers or the beaches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, the other aspect that I\u2019m really interested in with these waste-water and stormwater standards is we heard from officials during the select committee process that they were based on international best practice. I would really like to hear what some examples are of those standards and how those situations or environments actually relate to New Zealand\u2019s circumstances. We know the ecology of different environments is absolutely critical to whether these are actually having a serious adverse environmental effect or a lesser one, and so I\u2019m really interested in hearing about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe other aspect that I would like to get direction on from the Minister is further in this section\u2014new section 58JA(3), inserted by clause 269. It talks about where there is any conflict or duplication between a waste-water environmental performance standard or a stormwater environmental performance standard, and the documents are listed in new section 58JA(4). Basically, the waste-water and stormwater standards would prevail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, the documents listed in new section 58JA(4) are really meaty, serious documents. These are national policy statements, New Zealand coastal policy statements, and national environmental standards, and then we\u2019ve got our regional policy statements, regional plans, and district plans. These documents are really the heart of environmental protections when it comes to a local level, so I\u2019m interested in what the justification is from the Minister to actually override these democratic processes that have been undertaken by communities with councils to set rules, standards, and limits, and then these proposed waste-water and stormwater standards are coming in over the top of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI would like to hear whether the Minister would consider simply replacing the words \u201Cthe environmental performance standard prevails.\u201D with \u201Ca document listed in subsection (4) prevails.\u201D All this would mean is that where these standards have been made more stringent than the ones currently proposed, they can remain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThis is particularly important because we know that we\u2019ve got about 60 percent of our waste-water consents for our waste-water treatment plants coming up for renewal in the next decade and 20 percent of those are already operating on expired consents, so these new water service entities are going to be making absolutely critical investment decisions about what level of treatment they\u2019ll be putting in place. It would be fantastic if within that decision making they could actually uphold where the community will has got to with their regional plans, with their district plans, and even things like the New Zealand coastal policy statement and national environmental standards, which we know contain really serious bottom lines that would help keep our communities and our environment safer than if we were just making these standards much more lax, which we\u2019ve heard again from councils is the effect of these changes. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022abba792a5e0a43be81c4b1aed953beae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abba792a5e0a43be81c4b1aed953beae\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The member makes cogent observations about the historic inconsistency of environmental water standards across regions. Now, some of the matters that she raises relate to inconsistency\u2014different standards, different rules and regulations in different regions\u2014and so, the current receiving environment suffers from that inconsistent approach that has occurred over time, over years. Many of the consents, for instance, are expired and they include some unconsented waste-water discharges, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe proposed new standards in clause 269 will help fix that problem by prioritising clear requirements. That\u2019s pivotal and fundamental to this new proposed legislation. So, yes, standards do vary from region to region in terms of the receiving environments. The consenting authority cannot impose requirements more or less stringent than the standards, but the consent authorities will still have to consider the impact on the receiving environment as part of the usual resource consent decision making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI would just make the point in relation to the issues that the member raises, that it\u2019s been widely recognised across the House and by this committee that the current Resource Management Act (RMA) system is not leading to good freshwater outcomes. I think there\u2019s general acknowledgment and understanding of that. I\u2019m told 20 percent of existing water treatment plants are currently operating on expired resource consents; the longest has been expired for 24 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThere is some historic tidying up that needs to be achieved and I am confident and very optimistic that the passage of this legislation will aid and assist that in a way that hasn\u2019t previously been the case. It has been the cause of significant frustration not only to citizens but to the regulatory councils; also, in terms of the quality of water in various regions, from receiving environments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcc47f19cf744613b7125b1f8c410610\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcc47f19cf744613b7125b1f8c410610\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I raised similar points but not in as much detail as my colleague Lan Pham last night. The Minister of Local Government gave me a short answer, but it didn\u2019t address my question and it\u2019s still relevant. I thank the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, who is in the chair now, for answering some of those questions about some of the problems with the Resource Management Act (RMA), which of course the last Government repealed and replaced with legislation that this Government has, in turn, repealed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s talked about an inconsistent approach to water standards, and I\u2019m in no disagreement there. But what I\u2019m interested in is that these standards are imported from different legislation into the RMA\u2014into the Resource Management Act. That is what this part of Part 5 is doing: it\u2019s importing something from waste-water legislation into the Resource Management Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMy question last night, that still hasn\u2019t been answered, was: what tests do those standards go through before they become standards that are then imported into the Resource Management Act; and are those tests subject to the considerations that the Resource Management Act is in terms of Part 2 of that Act and sustainable management, which is in the purpose of section 5 of the Resource Management Act? That question remains unanswered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe heard in the last contribution some concern that some of these standards are being created at an international level. How do we know that these international standards will be appropriate for New Zealand - specific ecology? That has not been answered\u2014when the Minister talks about an inconsistent approach of the RMA, that\u2019s across regions but not across different countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo what comfort can he give us that these standards will be as rigorous as they would have been if they had been made under the Resource Management Act, noting that he says, \u201CWell, some of these waste-water treatment plants have been unconsented for over 20 years.\u201D, which is, of course, egregious. But if they were consented under the Resource Management Act, then they would be subject to those Part 2 requirements and sustainable management. Where does sustainable management fit with these standards that this Local Government (Water Services) Bill is importing into the Resource Management Act in Part 5, in the bowels of the bill? If he could answer that, that would be greatly appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022d50d6810c25e4fcf918ddb8952518426\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d50d6810c25e4fcf918ddb8952518426\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to jump ahead in the bill\u2014still in Part 5. This is later in the bill, at page 286 and section 328. Why I\u2019m jumping here is because I\u2019d like clarification, first, from the Minister\u2019s response about the receiving environment, and I\u2019m just checking if I heard the Minister correctly, saying that there actually is some form of regional variation that is put into these standards. If so, how can that work, and what does that actually look like when you\u2019re actually not going into the detail of specific, consent-by-consent levels, clearly? Is there literally a regional formula? How would that actually apply versus the actual different ecosystems and different environments that these discharges are actually going into? I\u2019d like some clarity on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThis clause that I\u2019m picking up on, though, is really about a proposal to amend the bill to state that consent authorities would have discretion over the activities controlled by waste-water environmental performance standards\u2014and the same could go, for the next section, to the stormwater environmental performance standards as well. Now, why I\u2019m interested in this is because these sections preclude public notification of applications for resource consents when it comes to these waste-water or stormwater environmental performance standards and the activities that they would allow. If the Government is saying these are a set form of standards and that they will not give any regard to regional plans and district plans where local people have actually made the rules, surely it would warrant public notification so that local people actually get to input and have their say\u2014and at least that could be an option rather than completely precluding public notification?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EMy proposed amendment, which I appreciate the Minister considering, is to replace\u2014this is clause 328(2), inserting new section 138(2A)(c)(i) and (ii)\u2014\u201Cis precluded from giving limited notification of an application for a resource consent\u201D with \u201Chas discretion over whether to provide limited notification of an application for a resource consent or whether to provide public notification of an application for a resource consent\u201D. Again, it\u2019s simply giving the discretion as to whether they could do that. Particularly, this would allow not only the set standards which are being proposed to be put in place, but it would actually provide for some level of input from local people in response to the local environment. I\u2019d really like to hear the Minister\u2019s thoughts on that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002248f778cc9a58450196bcadd5d5316c6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248f778cc9a58450196bcadd5d5316c6d\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Also, it\u2019s good to see you, Mr Chair, back in the House as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EJust following on from what the Minister responded with, which is around some of the amendments, and particularly the late amendment that we have mentioned that was dropped at 9.55 p.m. last night\u2014and I think there was a part of that we\u2019ll mention later on in Part 6. Just hearing the Minister\u2019s response in terms of clarity and transparency, it is important, I think, on the basis of transparency, that the Minister consider what my colleague Lan Pham has proposed in her amendment in terms of the ability for the public to be notified of such changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: in an earlier clause, clause 218, \u201CSubpart 2\u2014Amendments to Commerce Act 1986\u201D, and looking at clause 225, \u201CNew subpart 12 of Part 4 inserted\u201D\u2014I want to specifically ask the Minister around new section 57AB, \u201COrder in Council declaring water services\u201D. There are two questions that I have on this section. I think the first one is just a clarification of subsections 1(a) and (b). Is the Minister saying that on the recommendation of the Minister, the Governor-General will be declaring when essentially one or more water services\u2014that it becomes that declaring one or more service that involves a water service, essentially when it\u2019s established, or one or more service not being a stormwater service as in it no longer is but it was before? Because the way that I read this particular section is that it means that the Governor-General is able to just make declarations on both sides. I feel like it\u2019s got this interesting conundrum here where a service is both a service or not a service, unless a Minister makes a declaration. So I just want to get clarification that (a) it involves when something becomes a service, and (b) it involves a service that is an existing service no longer being a service. So that\u2019s my first question for the Minister, in terms of clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI guess the second part is in terms of the recommendation of the Minister and subsection (2), \u201Cthe Minister must be satisfied that (a) the Commission has made the recommendation\u201D, which on the surface looks reasonable, but in the context of the fact that this sits under the Commerce Act, can I just check if what we\u2019re saying here is that the declaration of what is a water service and what isn\u2019t a water service is on the recommendation of the relevant Minister of the Commerce Act, which is the Minister himself, the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, and the commission is the Commerce Commission in that case? So is what we\u2019re seeing here that the secondary legislation of determining or declaring a water service is not done under the local government but done by the commerce Minister and the Commerce Commission? That\u2019s my second question, if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind clarifying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo those are my two questions: the clarification on new section 57AB(1) and also, just in general for clarity, that the \u201CMinister\u201D and the \u201Ccommission\u201D here is the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs and the Commerce Commission. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022785188abe0eb4b95a37786b03830b95e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022785188abe0eb4b95a37786b03830b95e\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Responding to the member\u2019s question relating to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, I can tell the member he can be assured of the diligence and proactive attention of the Minister in relation to that. I can give that personal assurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to just go back to the question that the Hon Rachel Brooking asked about the Resource Management Act (RMA) particularly, because the RMA has been the subject of enormous discussion and debate over decades in this Chamber and outside. So, look, the provisions of this piece of legislation are designed entirely to ensure that the statutory purpose of this legislation is adhered to. So the decisions were made in accordance with the statutory purpose and the empowering provisions in the Water Services Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI would just take the opportunity to remind the committee that the relevant purpose in providing for this piece of legislation is for the progressive improvement of quality of water services, and that is the nub of it, and usual RMA considerations will apply through the consenting process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ELan Pham asked some questions that relate to different receiving environments, and the point I would make in response to her line of questioning is that there are seven kinds of receiving environmental processes provided for in discharge to water standards, and different regions will, as I mentioned earlier, differ from one to another. So those different receiving environments will need to be ultimately aligned. That\u2019s part of the purpose of this legislation, but there are seven kinds of receiving environments provided for in legislation. I hope that assists the member in some way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b83ec3115ab8411a89c0ad970d616f31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b83ec3115ab8411a89c0ad970d616f31\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Keen to just do a quick call on the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u2019 answer there. He said that the provisions that are being imported into the Resource Management Act (RMA) must meet the purpose of this bill\u2014I think is what he said\u2014\u201Cthis bill\u201D being the Local Government (Water Services) Bill, being different from the Water Services Act 2021, which is where these performance standards come from. He then referred to the purpose of this bill\u2014the Local Government (Water Services) Bill\u2014being about the improvement of water services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, the improvement of water services is quite different from the improvement of water quality from the receiving environment. If we\u2019re thinking about water services, we think about a water treatment plant and we want that water treatment plant to be improved\u2014and presumably that does include some of the discharge. But my concern here is that the discharge that comes from that water treatment plant might not have to be subject to the same controls as a discharge coming from a treatment plant that was controlled under the other provisions in the RMA, such as a national environmental standard\u2014a national environmental standard that has to be made in accordance with Part 2 of the Resource Management Act, and that it is the Resource Management Act Part 2 that has this sustainable management purpose to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIf the Minister could come back to me on that the purpose he was referring to\u2014and I see his officials looking at him\u2014was in the Local Government (Water Services) Bill and how that purpose then relates to the purpose of the RMA. Does he understand or agree, or does he disagree for some reason, with my point that improvement of water services is different from improvement of the water quality in the receiving environment? So in the coastal environment that a treatment plant is discharging\u2014we\u2019re talking about sewage here, right? We\u2019re talking about sewage; the Minister was talking about sewage, so it might be going to a coastal environment, it might be going to land, it might be going into a river. What are the controls for that receiving environment\u2014that river, that coastal environment? Are those controls based on sustainable management or being the purpose of the Resource Management Act, or are they based on improving water services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s quite a simple question. Please give me some comfort that, in fact, because it\u2019s coming under the Resource Management Act, it should definitely be going back to sustainable management as the purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022993a49d0ad2a45cf95dd1f1a324abe97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022993a49d0ad2a45cf95dd1f1a324abe97\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00229ab286c18c2245ae9d5130606c25c9c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ab286c18c2245ae9d5130606c25c9c8\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Perhaps the Minister may want a bit of time to respond to my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s question\u2014a simple one. Look, I just want to touch on a couple of things that haven\u2019t been referred to yet. This actually does relate to the amendments that are proposed to the Water Services Act. When we come to clause 307A, which seeks to amend section 32 of the Act\u2014this is about compliance, monitoring plans, and the like from Taumata Arowai\u2014and we look at subclause (6), there are four examples listed in relation to a drinking-water supplier. My question to the Minister is very simple: is there actually a requirement to list those; and why not just leave it as, actually, a drinking-water supplier? Because it\u2019s referring to subsection (3), which is pretty clear, but maybe it\u2019s simply a catch-all in whether that\u2019s needed or not. I\u2019ll leave that with the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe only other one I wanted to raise was clause 308C; this seeks to insert a new section 43A, and this is around management of risk when it comes to the additional provisions for water-service providers. In particular, in clause 43A, subclause (3), it does reference the use of contamination of water. Now, this is, obviously, something that is of particular concern and interest. Certainly, yes, the use of contaminated water, however that might be described, could be utilised in a way that is friendly to the receiving environment, but can the Minister provide some guarantees and assurances around what could be seen as the timely and effective public notification in terms of communication for this? What we have, as part of the former parts and elsewhere, are requirements around notification of notices, etc. This is about the public communication of warnings of circumstances where contamination or other sort of issues may arise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u002264e7c0479bcf4e388293a6adf14004b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264e7c0479bcf4e388293a6adf14004b4\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I think that while the Minister in the chair, the Hon Scott Simpson, is getting some advice, I just want to touch on a few additional points here. The first one is clause 269 inserting new sections 58JA to 58JC. One of the things that I\u2019m interested in\u2014and again, just for the Minister\u2019s sake and also clarity, the things that I\u2019m looking for and have questions for the Minister on by and large refer to the new amendment that has been released post - select committee, which is an Amendment Paper from the Minister of Local Government, Amendment Paper 346.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EIn here, there\u2019s a new section 58JAA that\u2019s been introduced, in terms of a plan that may permit effects that waste water or stormwater environmental performance standards does not deal with. I just wanted to check with the Minister, in terms of the rationale for including that as part of the amendment around waste water and stormwater environmental performance standards, why that part wasn\u2019t something that was considered previously, and what this additional section is intending to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re seeing the same thing here in a later section\u2014in clause 273, section 104 amended\u2014where new subsection (2DA) has been inserted, in terms of when you\u2019re looking at waste water environmental performance standards and infrastructure design solutions as well. So, again, we\u2019re seeing these reasonably substantial sections that have been introduced as part of Amendment Paper 346, but there\u2019s no commentary to this Amendment Paper, so it\u2019s really hard for us, not having any advice from the officials, to know what some of the intentions behind this are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI just also want to remind the Minister\u2014I appreciate the Minister\u2019s response in terms of confirming my earlier question, that it is indeed the Minister for Commerce and Consumer Affairs for some of those. But if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind responding to my question around 57AB, inserted by clause 225, that I mentioned previously, around this interesting case of a Schr\u00F6dinger declaration, where water service is both a water service and not a water service, potentially at the same time\u2014so if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind responding to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo the question primarily is\u2014again, just a reminder, Minister, in case I\u2019m jumping through too many sections\u2014clause 269, new section 58JAA, and clause 2731(a), new subsection (2DA).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002209c4fba008cf4923af9e7f7b33cb04b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209c4fba008cf4923af9e7f7b33cb04b2\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to go back to the issue that the Hon Rachel Brooking raised, and I want to just restate the previous answer I gave, because I\u2019m not sure that she quite grasped what I was on about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe issue relates, really, to decisions that are made in accordance with the statutory purposes and empowering provisions in the Water Services Act. Now, a relevant purpose is providing for progressive improvement of quality of water services, and then usual Resource Management Act considerations will apply through the consent process. What\u2019s important, in terms of the standards, is that those standards are focused on the impact on the receiving environment, and they\u2019re designed to achieve consistency across waste-water services. We know that there is inconsistency at the moment, so the purpose is to provide some consistency\u2014consistency that is good for the environment, and also design and provision for water service consistency as well. What we do know is that, across the country, controls will be similar, but they need to be consistent. That is an ongoing process. There isn\u2019t going to be, sort of, a moment when it is all consistent from day one, but that is, for want of a better term, a journey of consistent improvement over time. I\u2019m excited by that opportunity, because I think that the member will share with me our mutual concerns about the quality of the discharges being suitable for purpose and much better than they are in some parts of the country now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere asks a question about, \u201CWhy list some drinking water suppliers?\u201D I think that was in particular reference to clause 307A. I\u2019m advised that the provision limits application of information and related powers to limited categories of drinking-water suppliers to ensure any burden is proportionate to the risks and the costs. Again, it\u2019s a balancing proportional test, which I think, under the circumstances, is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdadb22c13564c41a90c977cab17d7b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdadb22c13564c41a90c977cab17d7b7\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just an answer to the Minister\u2019s answer to me\u2014no, it\u2019s not an answer; I\u2019m not giving the answers, I\u2019m asking a question. And that question is: the Minister there was clear in saying the purpose is the purpose of the Water Services Act\u2014 which is an Act already in place\u2014and that purpose is to improve the quality of water services, and then there will be some resource management consenting issues as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut that doesn\u2019t answer my question to the Minister, which is: is there anything, then, in the Water Services Act around what the quality of a water service is defined as, or in the provisions of the Act, which I don\u2019t have in front of me, that relates to improving the environment, so improving the environmental quality\u2014so the quality of the receiving environment, be it the river, the coastal environment, whatever it is? Is there any requirement to improve that quality, rather than the quality of the water service? Can the Minister understand the distinction that I\u2019m making here between a water service and the receiving environment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s just that very small point: is there anything, in any of the requirements for these standards that will be imported into the Resource Management Act, that requires the receiving environment\u2014the river or the coast\u2014to be improved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002291a7eea7216f4736b4143cf639251e83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291a7eea7216f4736b4143cf639251e83\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The member Rachel Brooking has asked the question three times now. I\u2019ve given two answers and I\u2019m not intending to give it a third time, but I think that the previous answers that I\u2019ve given make it clear that there is a requirement for environmental improvement. That\u2019s the whole purpose of not only this piece of legislation but a variety of other pieces of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to turn to the question specifically that the member Lawrence Xu-Nan asked, which was in relation to when a water service is and is not a water service\u2014clause 57(2)(a) and (b). I\u2019d simply respond by saying that it allows flexibility, given the developing nature of New Zealand\u2019s water services. So, again, it\u2019s part of the ongoing development of the water services regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a371547932c44cc28a4d5e470525663a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a371547932c44cc28a4d5e470525663a\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022560005eaf9b24a538f853b99197e120c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022900eed20e7ac4e1da82ba1916f2c17a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022900eed20e7ac4e1da82ba1916f2c17a1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 346 amending clauses 273(3A) and 299(6) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022757ae4fc4e83450780d2edb60d6998d1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225838a91f35e148069871cfd4c0607181\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225838a91f35e148069871cfd4c0607181\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 5 set out on Amendment Paper 346 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227d197cf49b6d48189dd955ead4d3f597\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d487a50733ea49598299e9197c7f3ad6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d487a50733ea49598299e9197c7f3ad6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just ask the Green Party member: in the previous vote, you cast 15. Should that have been 14?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u00220e82b39ffc0f406baafd342dfc7670e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e82b39ffc0f406baafd342dfc7670e0\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. If possible, I would like to correct the vote to say 14 votes opposed from the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226e93a02c57d44ef890b79414c3b88678\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e93a02c57d44ef890b79414c3b88678\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. We\u2019ll correct that. Is leave given to correct that vote from the Green Party? Leave is given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe question is that Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 269, new section 58JA, to replace subsection (2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220015c116193c483f85b78442ea73fe18\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d450f1c5b5304ce5837f2c9f59f1fcc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d450f1c5b5304ce5837f2c9f59f1fcc9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 269, new section 58JA(3), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225480dc92c0d447dfba9597c88332a8f5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225ac10a57e054489194d8e71f71ea7dd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ac10a57e054489194d8e71f71ea7dd4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 328, new subsection (2A)(c) of section 138, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002238bd7544b5cc432786825c8d0cb6fe94\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fe93f2fe7e474c93af3d7afbb0b0277e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d01c2580ad547ad81207a52d469ba60\u0022\u003EPart 6  Miscellaneous provisions \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228af9bb1366ad44bb84bfc2312c1882fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228af9bb1366ad44bb84bfc2312c1882fe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on Part 6, which is the debate on clauses 344 to 432, \u201CMiscellaneous provisions\u201D, and Schedule 12. The question is that Part 6 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00226f68f3f70ed8481cadf02368092c3f78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f68f3f70ed8481cadf02368092c3f78\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E As we begin debate on Part 6, I thought it might be appropriate to just give a little bit of an overview of the part and what it contains. It\u2019s made up of a number of very practical operational provisions to enable water service providers to effectively manage and protect their water service networks so that services can be delivered to required standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EPart 6 provides water service providers with regulatory powers in relation to by-laws, compliance, and enforcement mechanisms, and it includes offence provisions, as well. It empowers councils to make, amend, revoke, review, and enforce water services by-laws. A water organisation may propose a by-law, undertake consultation on behalf of the council, and have delegated responsibilities to administer or enforce by-laws while the council retains ultimate responsibility for by-law making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIn addition, this part requires that the Minister of Local Government initiate a review of water services systems within 54 to 66 months of commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdc0e3db484a453ebf362520bc7992b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdc0e3db484a453ebf362520bc7992b2\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you to the Minister for running through that brief overview of this final part. I want to ask the Minister\u2014I was hoping, actually, that as part of the overview, he would have shared with the committee the rationale behind the Amendment Paper that was landed at 9.55 p.m. last night\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022813df7341672476aac92d6f8e41f37c6\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: 9.55 p.m.?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a2cb8492f044b14880ad972bd10a635\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u20149.55 p.m. last night\u2014to delete clause 347(3). Now, it may appear\u2014I guess\u2014innocuous, because it\u2019s just one-liner, but, basically, it seeks to delete an entire clause. The clause that it seeks to delete is under section 347, which is around the power that is given to make water services by-laws. And I hear some sort of comment from the Hon Rachel Brooking, and it\u2019s because\u2014the surprise, I think, that this is has landed late in the piece. However, what this seeks to do is delete subclause (3), which identifies that before making a by-law relating to the discharge of trade waste, a territorial authority must follow the process set out in a particular subsection of the Local Government Act 2002 before things proceed further. So I had to refresh my mind as to what section 148, subclauses (2) through to (4), of the Local Government Act actually require. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5b95e37cb51407bacb1f25ed472c291\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: What sort of deputy mayor were you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e00161d0c3fd4b968c9b1ac99aed54b4\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I was a very good deputy mayor, but I have to say, I had to refresh my memory early in the morning around by-laws relating to trade waste. Basically, the crux of it is that the Minister is seeking to delete the ability to consult with the public over this issue. So what that subsection identifies is, basically, a two-month window within which there needs to be some opportunity for a public notification period to exist following engagement with the Minister of Health\u2014who may identify some other entities or individuals that also need to be consulted with\u2014before this trade waste by-law is actually allowed to happen or come into effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAnd so my question for the Minister is: why is he seeking to remove that time? It may be because it\u2019s contained elsewhere. Well, if that was the case, why did he wait till five minutes before the House rose last night\u2014or the committee rose last night\u2014before he needed to land this here? Is it somewhere else? No, it\u2019s not. The proposal was to initially delete it in (b) but put it into the subsection proper; now, the Minister is seeking to delete it in its entirety. I\u2019ve got some real concerns, not only around the sloppiness with which this was landed so late in the piece, because there are no\u2014we hear some groans from the other side there\u2014but there\u2019s nothing that has been identified by the Minister while the committee has been dealing with this to identify this as a change. So given that we have had quite some time\u2014and the Minister\u2019s own Amendment Papers, I think, were publicly released back on 29 July\u2014so why is there the requirement for the sloppiness, and also the element of haste to remove the ability for the public to be consulted around this? So that\u2019s why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2298e0fdc324e2a99edd016b89b5c14\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: And why didn\u2019t he raise it? Why didn\u2019t he proactively raise it? Was it proactively raised by the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274b12da2106b44149f9c87d16729353c\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Minister didn\u2019t actually identify anything in the Chamber last night to say, so this is rather sneaky behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a224335996894c44981e8e5cc2f3f312\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a224335996894c44981e8e5cc2f3f312\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, this is the second time this morning that that member has drawn attention to issues that relate more to matters internally within his party than anything to do with this legislation. I don\u2019t want to cast any aspersions on his previous life as the Deputy Mayor of Palmerston North, but there is a simple reason for the Amendment Paper. I just want to make it clear to the member, and also to members of this committee, that clause 347(3) is being deleted because it refers to section 148 of the Local Government Act 2002, which is actually being repealed by Schedule 12. Now, the role of the Minister of Health is transferred to the Water Services Authority as the drinking-water quality regulator, and section 148, which requires by-laws to be sent to the Minister of Health, is therefore not required. That\u2019s an explanation of the Amendment Paper that was produced last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00228d535023c6094ba1a34f2efec717a814\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d535023c6094ba1a34f2efec717a814\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s good to have that explanation from the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs. Of course, it would be a much simpler process if when Ministers put little amendments on the Table at 9.55 p.m. at night that they tell the committee about what they\u0027re doing and even why they\u0027re doing it\u2014imagine that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI am also interested in this clause 347, \u201CPower to make water services bylaws\u201D, because, of course, by-laws are very interesting things. They are something whereby a council can act as a rule-maker. So it is good that we have clause 347, that sets out where these by-laws can be made; it\u2019s always useful to have these specific provisions in legislation so councils have the knowledge that they have the authority to make such a by-law rather than having to work out whether they can or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut I\u0027m interested in subclause (1)(d), which is managing a stormwater network, including by-laws to support water service providers\u2019 stormwater network risk management plan. And we did have some discussion about this in an earlier part of the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7a8093e721b456e80840f98197d85b5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Have you got a page for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210388c0f06c44c2bbfac1c33ada18df8\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m on page 282 of the big Amendment Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221565f6134aa842c69213a994fba38432\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Page 282, OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad1c5569a9ef473c8b69f2fe79477438\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: That is what I\u0027m looking at\u2014not the little Amendment Paper that was landed at 9.55 p.m. last night that we might not have noticed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, the discussion that we had, if the Minister\u2019s found it, I\u0027m looking at clause 347(1)(d)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284141ecae5d04286958cf9ea83ec651e\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the same day; it was earlier today. Says it on the wall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022982f74c919bf46e28ccc002be45ece90\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: The Government members are saying that because we\u0027re in an extended sitting, we\u0027re still on Wednesday. Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffc4a37660c64499bb6fd6f624886b45\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: In the House we are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bab0b58a082415098696b5ea0258404\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: That\u0027s nice to say that in the House, we are still in Wednesday. That does not detract from the fact that it was at 9.55 p.m. on Wednesday night that a very small Amendment Paper was put on the Table and nothing was said about it until the next session, which we are in now, when we had to raise it as a topic, which seems a very bad way to make laws. I don\u0027t disagree with what the Minister said when he did actually raise it, but he didn\u0027t actively raise it, and that is the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut it\u0027s not actually what I was talking about, which is clause 347(1)(d) on page 282, and this is whereby a council will be able to make a by-law, at clause 170, that requires private property owners to\u2014well, I never got an answer to this question, but I think it means that they have to actively undertake proactive activities to stop hazards, to clean up waterways, to do things before a water event happens. And I asked in that part, as well, whether or not there had been advice that the Minister can share with the committee about that ability for a council to impose these requirements, active requirements, on to private property owners rather than the more orthodox approach of a by-law, which says, \u201CDon\u0027t go into these areas.\u201D So it\u0027s a \u201CDon\u0027t do this\u201D rather than a \u201CYou have to actively manage these things\u201D. Because it is a tricky legal issue, and it\u0027s one that I remember discussing in the last Parliament, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen my next point in relation to this bylaw-making power is, of course, that it is for councils to make by-laws and not water organisations. We see in clause 348 that when the water services provider is a water organisation rather than a territorial authority, then that water organisation can propose a by-law. But, of course, some of these water organisations will have more than one council, one territorial authority; they might have two, for instance. There is provision in this clause 348 for when there are multiple territorial authorities within that water organisation, and it basically says the recommendation for a by-law can be that both, or however many councils there are, should undertake the bylaw-making process. \u201CHowever\u201D, it says at subclause (4), \u201C[that] does not apply if there is good reason for a water organisation not to make the same proposal to each territorial authority.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo my question is if the Minister can give some examples whereby it would not be appropriate for councils to have the same by-law that the water organisation is requesting, to do things like require private owners of property to clear debris or to not do certain things in different parts of an overflow path or anything else to do with the by-law; under what sort of circumstances would the multiple councils that are involved in a water organisation want different by-laws? And surely the point of having this water organisation is that everybody is following the same rules. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00222098e459871d4da4bb4b03eb777a6820\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222098e459871d4da4bb4b03eb777a6820\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Just in relation to the specific question asked by the Hon Rachel Brooking in reference to clause 347(1)(d), which relates to the managing of stormwater networks, I wasn\u2019t in the chair during the Part 3 debate, but I\u2019m advised that that matter was answered clearly during the Part 3 debate, and it provides that they can impose requirements on private landowners. So that answers the question that the member was asking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00223a5431793c1c42b69a05f13ff32470c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a5431793c1c42b69a05f13ff32470c6\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to focus my questions to the Minister on Subpart 2, around compliance and enforcement. I want to start by asking the Minister a question on the newly introduced provisions of clause 357, \u201CInfringement offences\u201D, whereby two additional provisions that are relevant to the Criminal Procedure Act 2011 have been applied here. I want to check with the Minister that, in the context of infringement notices, and particularly when it comes to fines, subclauses (2)(a) and (b) suggest that, essentially, a defendant who is convicted of an offence can be done by a by-law. I\u2019m assuming the implication is that subclause (2)(b) doesn\u2019t have to be applied if the offence is happening in a jurisdiction in which there is no similar or comparable by-law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EBut I want to check and test in this particular provision, in the broader scheme of when we are looking at the collection of fines in the case of infringement offences\u2014would that then apply to other areas whereby the enforcement of such collection of fines can only be limited to that particular by-law jurisdiction, or can it be expanded more broadly nationally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe reason I suggest this and want to get clarification from the Minister is: let\u2019s say, for example, that there is currently a trial going on where a bailiff is able to scan a person\u2019s vehicle and check if that particular person has a fine associated with that particular vehicle. However, if that vehicle is registered to a specific area and a fine is limited by a specific area\u2019s by-law, would that mean that the bailiff has the jurisdiction in another area to impose or to apply that same level of ability to fine or impound a person\u2019s vehicle if it\u2019s not from that by-law? I\u2019m hoping that that makes some sort of sense. It makes sense in my head. It depends on the jurisdiction of the by-law. If it doesn\u2019t make sense, I suggest that the Minister respond to that rather than people from the other side who may not have had the same experience dealing with legislation or criminal matters, and I suggest that they go and do some learning. That is my first question\u2014it\u2019s around the enforceability and jurisdiction of a by-law based on the new two areas of (2)(a) and (b) in clause 357.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI want to move on to clause 371, \u201CPower to obtain information\u201D. This is something that has come up in other legislation. I want to focus on the power of a compliance officer, and it is about interaction with the privilege of self-incrimination. I want to get clarification from the Minister that when we\u2019re looking at the Search and Surveillance Act and looking in the bill at subclause (3) of clause 371, and we\u2019re looking at the privilege and confidentiality, it applies to \u201C \u2026 anything done in this section,\u201D but in subclause (4) \u201CNothing in this section limits other legislation \u2026\u201D, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003ESo what I just want to get perfectly clear is this: within the power of a compliance officer in clause 371, we will still uphold the fundamental rule as we see in the Search and Surveillance Act, that people will not be put in a situation where they are self-incriminating, and this is going to be really important int terms of the power that is being granted to a compliance officer in clause 371(1).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAgain, this has been ongoing, with well-known cases in New Zealand and internationally that use New Zealand\u2014and particularly the obiter dictum in the famous Taylor v New Zealand Poultry Board case in the 1980s\u2014that this is something that fundamentally challenges our New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. So I want to just get a clarification from the Minister that my interpretation is correct\u2014that it\u2019s not going to get people to self-incriminate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022653644d1faf64966b7f7a63f10ddd69c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022653644d1faf64966b7f7a63f10ddd69c\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry, Mr Chair. I was just wanting to make a response, particularly to Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s request for information regarding clause 357, \u201CInfringement offences\u201D. I\u2019ll come back to his second matter, probably after the next contribution. He asked whether what was in his head was being made clear to others. It would be totally inappropriate for me to try and ascertain what was going on in his head, and I don\u2019t mean that in any negative way, but from my understanding, the point that he raised was really seeking some clarification about the extent to which those enforcement provisions would apply outside the jurisdiction of the bylaw-creating entity. Is that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230624e378b7d4ac488205b697a75a2eb\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you! See, you get me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022211415c112d643269990d021d5cdc266\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, yeah. And I\u2019m not even in the member\u2019s head! That\u2019s probably a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI just want to make the point that the new subclauses clarify that the infringement offences in the by-law only apply in the district the by-law is made in. So that\u2019s to clarify, not make substantive change. It just applies to section 375 of the Criminal Procedure Act of 2011\u2014is the particular reference, I\u2019m advised\u2014that the infringement is not recorded as an offence but as an order to pay fines and costs. So clause 357 is limited to those water by-laws; it doesn\u2019t extend beyond the water by-laws. I hope that helps with the member\u2019s understanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d724e92188ea47d7a23e6864a807f32c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a bit early in the morning for mind-reading, but well done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002227196ebc66c540fc9828e8d6168d1e41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227196ebc66c540fc9828e8d6168d1e41\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to remind the committee that the Minister in charge of this bill put an Amendment Paper on the Table at the start of committee stage. We\u2019re flicking between the bill as reported from the select committee and the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper. The interesting thing about that is the things which are in the Amendment Paper, which were not in the bill as reported from the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to go to clause 374 in the bill as reported from select committee\u2014it\u2019s on page 4; I\u2019m looking at it on the bill as reported from select committee\u2014and in particular, I\u2019m looking at subclauses (5) and (6), which says, \u201C(5) A compliance officer must not enter any land on which a marae or an urup\u0101 is situated or that is a M\u0101ori reservation, except with the consent of an owner\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ef22cee3b24d8294f9319dc826ab8b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: What page is that on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279d3e68886b249848d06b834baca07bf\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, this is page 310 of the bill as reported by the select committee\u2014subclause (5) there. So that was (5), and (6) is: \u201CA compliance officer must not enter any M\u0101ori land unless, before entering, the compliance officer has given reasonable notice in writing to the owner (or owners) of the land.\u201D So the first question a person might reasonably sort of say to themselves is, \u201CWell, what is meant by \u2018M\u0101ori land\u2019?\u201D In the select committee version of the bill, \u201CM\u0101ori land\u201D has the same meaning as set out in section 4 of the Te Ture Whenua M\u0101ori Act 1993. That\u2019s what\u2019s going on in the original version of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESitting in what has come through from the Minister, we\u2019ve got the definition of M\u0101ori land, but then we\u2019ve got a definition of M\u0101ori-owned land: \u201CM\u0101ori land; a M\u0101ori reservation; any land on which a marae or an urup\u0101 is situated; a reserve [and so on]\u201D. That\u2019s fine. Flicking through to clause 374 in the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper\u2014this on page 295 of the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper\u2014we find that in subclause (6), \u201CA compliance officer must not enter any M\u0101ori-owned land\u201D\u2014so there is a little clarification sitting there, not just any M\u0101ori land\u2014but then there are also a whole lot of paragraphs added into (6) to specify exactly what land is intended; so it\u2019s \u201C(a) the marae, if a marae is situated on the land; (b) the trustees of the principal marae of the hap\u016B that is associated with the land\u201D, and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat it\u2019s doing is specifying who must be contacted. I\u2019m interested in that, because it seems like there is a considerable amount of clarification or additional text added into subclause (6) of clause 374, in the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper. What is the policy thinking behind that? Why was there felt to be a need to add all those clarifications? You know, if the law was not sufficiently clear before, as to the proposed law, as to who was to be contacted\u2014it seems like very much like a belt-and-braces approach, but what confidence do we have that the braces there are actually doing the work or that they add to the law as written? Just if the Minister could clarify what the policy thinking was behind that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00223f2dd340fb3b4b398586ccd54417a436\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f2dd340fb3b4b398586ccd54417a436\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The short answer to the member\u2019s question is that it\u2019s simply to provide clarity and certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022a213eb03a50241f0bcb02e493ec6484d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a213eb03a50241f0bcb02e493ec6484d\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E This is just a short contribution from me, and one that relates to the offence provisions and the enforcement provisions in this Part 6. I haven\u2019t seen anything in relation to whereby a person breaches a by-law and the water services provider has an opportunity to turn off that property\u2019s water source. I was wondering if there is any link into this part of the bill about that ability to turn off the water source for a breach of a by-law or if that is actually just quite separate and there\u2019s no link to this part of the bill? Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u0022504b7f58a1bb44ba94ea4b3694d01d34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022504b7f58a1bb44ba94ea4b3694d01d34\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I thank the Minister for knowing exactly what I was asking. I do appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI have two additional questions. I\u2019m looking at Subpart 3, \u201COffences\u201D, and I will refer to a few of the clauses, but just for brevity, the two questions I have for the Minister are sort of more thematic. For example, the first question is around, let\u2019s say, clause 394. We\u2019re seeing similar terminology being used in, let\u2019s say, clauses 396 and 403\u2014because it simply is a repetition between water supply network, waste-water network, and stormwater network\u2014but the wording is the same, and I want to check in terms of the wording.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy understanding here is, in terms of clause 394 et al.\u2014and other sections\u2014subclause (1)(a) implies the actus reus of a criminal offence, and (b) is the mens rea component of a criminal offence; and subclause (2) is the consequence of those. I want to check with the Minister because subclause (a), in terms of actus reus, is fairly straightforward, but subclause (b) conflates three very different areas of mens rea\u2014intention, knowledge, and recklessness. Can I just check that, while they\u2019re all being put under one subclause, which is subclause (b), those three different degrees of mens rea will be considered when a conviction is being determined\u2014as in, when we\u2019re looking at \u201Cfor an individual \u2026 a term of imprisonment not exceeding 2 years or a fine not exceeding $75,000\u201D or \u201Cfor a body corporate \u2026 a fine not exceeding $1.5 million.\u201D, that the degree of that will still be determined on varying degrees of the mens rea, in accordance with subclause (1)(b), as opposed to intention, knowledge, and recklessness being combined into one totality, so to speak. That\u2019s my first question, around mens rea\u2014and, again, that\u2019s clauses 394(1)(b), 396(1)(b), and 403(1)(b).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EMy second question is around clauses 395, 397, and 404, because they all include the term \u201Cnegligently\u201D. Now, \u201Cnegligently\u201D, in the sense of criminal law, forms the fourth part of mens rea, and it does have a certain level of connection in terms of liability. In general, when we\u2019re looking at negligence, we\u2019re looking at something that is either strict liability or limited liability, but I want to check with the Minister here that, in clauses 395(2)(a), 397(2)(a), and 404(2)(a), it specifies \u201C\u2026 an individual, to a fine not exceeding $50,000:\u201D\u2014actually, $50,000 for all of them. Can I just check, both in terms of case law and also in terms of the thinking of this area, in what sort of circumstance would we find a limited or strict liability for an individual? I just want to get an example from the Minister on when that would be applicable. I understand, in terms of strict and limited liability for a body corporate, which is in subclause (2)(b), but if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind providing an example for subclause 2(a), that\u2019ll be appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022af291e5c6d38494c8624ba7999ff5512\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af291e5c6d38494c8624ba7999ff5512\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Before I attempt to respond to the member Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s question, I just want to go back to the question that the Hon Rachel Brooking asked about the ability to turn water off. There is a provision, at clause 178A, that a water service provider must provide necessary water in \u201Ca sufficient quantity\u201D to, for instance, provide for sanitation. So there is an ability to dial back the flow of water, but it still needs to be sufficient to, as I say, provide for sanitation, drinking, and so forth. So there\u2019s a balance that is applied there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00229b5916b8a32846ed842522be7f5c6bd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b5916b8a32846ed842522be7f5c6bd6\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister, for explaining that part. Of course, it\u2019s important that people can have some provision of water, but it was more how that links back to the earlier provision\u2014which I know is in another part of the bill\u2014that enables the water services provider to turn off if there\u2019s been a breach of a by-law? Is that ability fettered by the clause that you just mentioned, in that there must always be this provision for the good sanitary provision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6ea04169db44fac997324b95d0268be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6ea04169db44fac997324b95d0268be\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. The answer must be, to that question: yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan asked about existing protections against incrimination\u2014whether they continue to apply\u2014and the answer to that question is yes. Without getting into a protracted discussion of the fundamentals of mens rea and legal principles involved, I think he can rest assured that those principles apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00220a582a30aa4543ff8ef8630398754354\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a582a30aa4543ff8ef8630398754354\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister, for that clarification. That was very helpful. I want to focus on the next section, which is clause 421, and this is serious, but it\u2019s also really interesting that there is a section in here on that in terms of assault. I just wanted to check with the Minister, when we are looking at assault here, it says \u201Cintentionally threaten or assault\u201D; those two are a little bit different, but let\u2019s focus on the more serious of the two, which is \u201Cassault an employee or agent\u201D who is performing a duty or power. But the person \u201Cwho commits an offence against this section is liable on conviction,\u2013(a) for an individual, to a fine not exceeding $50,000.\u201D However, I want to check with the Minister that assault is a separate and a very specific offense under the Crimes Act 1961, and if we are looking at\u2014let\u2019s say, to give an example, under section 173 of the Crimes Act 1961, \u201CAssault with intent to injure\u201D, the potential maximum conviction or criminalisation of that is three years in prison. However, over here, for an individual it is a fine not exceeding $50,000. In those kinds of cases, are we looking at a person who might be charged for both under assault with the intent to injure? For example, there are other sections around section 191 around assault, as well as what we see here in clause 421 in terms of intentionally threatening or assaulting an employee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAre those two going to be separate charges that are going to be placed on the individual, and if not, what then prevails? Are we looking at the Crimes Act would prevail with assault with intent to injure or to clause 421 of this bill, because it seems like, if this is the case, you will potentially get a much lower conviction\u2014for example, if you assault an employee or agent of territorial authorities or other organisation\u2014than if you are assaulting with the intent to injure a person in general. So that may be part one, and part two is unless we\u2019re looking at assault on a minor scale\u2014but assault not necessarily with the intent to injure\u2014which is, again, a very separate thing because there is a mens rea component to it, where simply assaulting may not have the same threshold for mens rea. But, yes, I just want to check in terms of what is meant by assault and its interaction with the Crimes Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00228d22a9b2f4dc435e8d33fc623d7aa298\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d22a9b2f4dc435e8d33fc623d7aa298\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E This is turning into quite the law school process and it reminds me of days long gone by. I just want to confirm for the member that provisions of this sort that provide protections for enforcement officers and agencies are pretty standard in legislation that is widely used by the New Zealand Parliament. So this is not an unusual provision from that regard; to have those specific offences when undertaking compliance roles is common\u2014not unusual, not weird, strange, or odd in any way. And it is separate from general assault offences. As the member will know from his own university lecturing days, charging decisions are actually matters for prosecution, not for the legislation or the legislature. So that\u0027s the simple answer to that question. But it\u0027s an interesting legal academic point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00220e9f31c1a7c54c71a87354eacca205ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e9f31c1a7c54c71a87354eacca205ae\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002277d2e6fa946c40f59af8457dce2944a6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226bdc48e5a10946468387ed9790f4b3eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bdc48e5a10946468387ed9790f4b3eb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Minister\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 346 deleting clause 347(3) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225b369314fde5447496d7a3e222e95166\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8e53bd12964458aa4b67ab2fa8a2cf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8e53bd12964458aa4b67ab2fa8a2cf3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 6 set out on Amendment Paper 346 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002292c4b4d41b1440babc238910fd267431\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229343a9b8704247549a4165f2f15cecf5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 6 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 6 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a36ba12b0b2f48908238aab18f17713c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a36ba12b0b2f48908238aab18f17713c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Minister\u2019s amendment to Schedule 1 set out on Amendment Paper 346 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022586d7f3a65c24d6d944e5bc25be0b937\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002266654116346f4e30ab6d27ea5f51df45\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a817400f5cdb42ba99ef79378e3ee350\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a817400f5cdb42ba99ef79378e3ee350\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 2 set out on Amendment Paper 346 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c124c1a790bc4144a909a40342d10889\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222217d55f157c4847bbeba927c7a844af\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f53774d5f60a407ca36e12a28049fafc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f53774d5f60a407ca36e12a28049fafc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 3 set out on Amendment Paper 346 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cdb55d06a8b04746b0d8db69b8c433fb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220680babee8d54d87a974088876ac0250\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f003f0457b6b457aaf5e9b1d04bb53fc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9a54ba9bdbb4f7ebe48b7b60f67be90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9a54ba9bdbb4f7ebe48b7b60f67be90\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 5 set out on Amendment Paper 346 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228f51220aa6f54dd8bdfe9a1e86f10042\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00225b4d416ddb1642369a8fc1e9b6565051\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b4d416ddb1642369a8fc1e9b6565051\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendments to Schedule 5 set out on Amendment Paper 342 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d41faff04ef147f4b69d16a884a677c9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e072db8ee9094d0cb178f9301fe5a693\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 5 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226de84fa77f3a436a8c0f8cb2ae62fb73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226de84fa77f3a436a8c0f8cb2ae62fb73\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 6 set out on Amendment Paper 346 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e66e70579710463da62ac3171445deaa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220f01bca2770d44c78d63480cb738d38f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 6 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 6 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2abbe7f1d51421994286ceff902c782\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2abbe7f1d51421994286ceff902c782\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 7 set out on Amendment Paper 346 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022529d9982284341df940cd8fcc3571256\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002206e022a874d547c0b923f2d1ddd1a537\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 7 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 7 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221e8fef8345c447bab74de3b97f26365b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 8 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 8 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220abc50ac31874a69aaf70a70abfbc68c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220abc50ac31874a69aaf70a70abfbc68c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 346 amending Schedule 9 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fc0d2edef3f8400e87d1b2e5de8d2ab2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002266296d3f239942189a9cc15a99685e9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266296d3f239942189a9cc15a99685e9d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 9 set out on Amendment Paper 346 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022070b8b738f05488c81d77d229fd301a2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224b0016084ad643e3b2ea338a48697b07\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 9 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 9 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002244e5f1ad99ee42f4a86ce175c249904c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 10 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 10 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022908d29f112484f6caaec5a6447131c25\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 11 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 11 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6bc45e8cc8c438b899698f1e21516b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6bc45e8cc8c438b899698f1e21516b8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 346 amending Schedule 12 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bd31ad03d2b44770892b0e1de34af563\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00223a700e91d9c443b39495c49139085eb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a700e91d9c443b39495c49139085eb4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 12 set out on Amendment Paper 346 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002203c7ca147bd24396b89f22de6d83d31a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022097ac4ad2f27403ca91597f8e3a97b5c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 12 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u00A05.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 12 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222d31de4701ab456f8d104ef5c43a4a39\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00224d5dca1a15f54ff78e79791881825db0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d5dca1a15f54ff78e79791881825db0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to the debate on clauses 1 and 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf35d5a0b5564f61a747355a7144d4b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf35d5a0b5564f61a747355a7144d4b8\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Clauses 1 and 2 are fairly discrete but fairly important, none the less. I want to talk to clause 2 firstly, which is the commencement clause, which will, basically, indicate when this bill, if passed, will come into effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, I have Amendment Paper 342, which would seek to amend clause 2\u2014specifically, clause 2(1)\u2014to replace \u201Cthe day after Royal assent\u201D with \u201C1 January 2027\u201D. The effect of that would be to give councils and local territorial authorities more time to undertake the expectations and to discharge the obligations that this bill would require of them. I don\u2019t think that that is unreasonable. The Labour Party, obviously, is not supportive of this bill. However, if it is going to work for communities, communities need more time to consider what it is they need to do and to be able to give effect to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAlready around the country, we are seeing examples of councils that are needing to rush around in order to meet the Government\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d1a52b3574a491182d2cca13ac4b1d0\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve had three years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cfdd61c8cbd464a9cc7b6889f91ec0a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211c3012e88c346eb8df57a65e50eefc4\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve had years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213232e8da94f446187aaee8d7a6f52fd\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CThey\u2019ve had years.\u201D\u2014well, there we go. He\u2019s said that it\u2019s three years that they\u2019ve had\u2014Mr Hamilton himself has a background in local government\u2014but what\u2019s really important here, though, is that communities are able to implement something that, quite frankly, will not work. It will not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe premise behind extending the commencement date in that specific subclause there is around giving councils more time to outline what their expectations are. Now, as this 3 September deadline draws closer\u2014it\u2019s only a matter of days away\u2014councils are being forced into a situation where they are needing to comply with certain things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230f49bf87c104d7db41090f2be4a6b2d\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: But it\u2019s optional. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237d26fd303124a26bf57018fbb4a3d49\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CIt\u2019s optional.\u201D\u2014oh, that\u2019s interesting. So, as we move to clause 2(2), this proposed change is about replacing the year \u201C2026\u201D with \u201C2027\u201D, because this is not optional. This is a bill that is going to, effectively, require expectations\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8e6a26e8b4b4cd8bb16589f6aeb7e42\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Didn\u2019t he say it was optional? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296855ae260ec4090a369a2c8c40cd154\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Government member did say that this was optional. Now, I don\u2019t think that there are options. Where in this hefty bill is the option component? Well, I don\u2019t think there is one, because this is an expectation that will be required of communities all around the country. So my question to the Minister is around the commencement clause and what that looks like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other tabled amendment in my name is around clause 1. This is the title, and often we hear in this House about the need to, basically, call a bill\u2014or what\u2019s about to be an Act\u2014exactly what it is. We hear from this Government time and time again about how their water reforms are going to make a huge difference. They are going to make a huge difference\u2014they\u2019re going to make a huge difference in the amount of money that households are going to actually have to pay in order to meet the water infrastructure needs of their community. That\u2019s the difference and that\u2019s what it\u2019s going to be about. My final point is on my amendment, which seeks to replace the words \u201C(Water Services)\u201D so that this bill would simply be known as the \u201CLocal Government (Local Water Done Badly) Act 2024\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022eac71c19941a460a988fb9fddf17a2c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eac71c19941a460a988fb9fddf17a2c9\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I absolutely share my colleague\u2019s concerns around the commencement date. When we heard from councils as part of the select committee process, all of them were concerned about the time frames. Now, everyone agreed that we want to be getting on with big changes when it comes to water reform, but not, particularly, in this way and not, particularly, in this rushed way where councils are scrambling to meet these deadlines. I really support my colleague Tangi Utikere\u2019s Amendment Paper 342 there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, I want to come, as well, to the title, and I want to emphasise how important it was in terms of this opportunity that the Government did have to actually get this bill right. When it comes to an appropriate title for the bill, I don\u2019t think simply saying \u201CLocal Government (Water Services)\u201D is actually capturing what this bill is about, and I want to touch on a few aspects of why. The primary one is that we\u2019ve had several proposed amendments throughout the course of this committee of the whole House stage where we would actually centre the environment and, particularly, the adverse effects on the environment, but we know, now, in the objectives of this bill, that that has been removed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWe also tried to put in place some very basic changes to the purpose. This was really to ensure there were things like environmental sustainability and equitable access to water services\u2014things that are absolutely missing. The concern with all of that is that it all adds up to provisions later in the bill, when it comes to, particularly, this single set of stormwater and waste-water provisions\u2014which, again, we\u2019ve heard have very significant implications for allowing when consents come up for renewal or when consents are granted for new waste-water or stormwater treatment plants\u2014that they can meet these single sets of standards that are often many, many, many, many times more than what is currently in place. That all adds up to the fact that the impacts on the environment could be and will be, in certain circumstances, significant, and that is just entirely inappropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe other aspect that is really significant with this bill, particularly on those stormwater and waste-water standards, is the preclusion of either limited notification or public notification when it comes to actually involving the community in these decisions. We know that these standards will override very significant democratic legislative processes and the legislation itself, and that cuts across national policy statements; it cuts across national environment standards; and it cuts across regional policy statements, plans, and district plans\u2014and these are the core of how our democratic processes work in this country in setting standards that should have teeth. This bill is completely overriding that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EMy proposal to adequately capture what this bill is doing is in my tabled amendment to change clause 1, where we would call this bill the \u201CLocal Government (Perpetually Deprioritising Community and Ecosystem Health Water Services) Bill\u201D. That\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re seeing here. The opportunity has not been taken up to prioritise community health and ecosystem health, and we absolutely do not support that, and we\u2019re really disappointed that the Government have not made amendments to actually make sure that our people and our environment were central to all of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbc989b7588d44bf9a412190e777ef50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbc989b7588d44bf9a412190e777ef50\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to speak to those two amendments that have just been discussed in the previous two contributions by Tangi Utikere and Lan Pham. They both make exceptionally good points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGoing first to my colleague Tangi Utikere. His amendment is for the title to be the \u201CLocal Government (Water Services Done Badly) Bill\u201D. That\u2019s what his amendment is. I was thinking, during his contribution, that probably it would be more accurate, in fact, if the title of the bill was \u201CLocal Government (Water Services Done Badly and More Expensively) Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022164e46d41ee94761bfc2e6efe7734024\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022146abbaa0c944b60855a77fe40a5fbfd\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Utikere. Because that is the point: this is going to put more money on ratepayers, and that is a decision of this Government. Shame on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen we go to Lan Pham\u2019s suggestion, which was\u2014I didn\u2019t catch it all\u2014\u201CAgain Deprioritising the Community and Ecosystem Health\u201D. This is a very good point because what this bill does\u2014and it\u2019s not in the title at all, we can\u2019t see it; we just see \u201Cwater services\u201D and \u201Clocal government\u201D; there is nothing about the Resource Management Act (RMA) and the further degradation of the environment that this Government seems intent on doing with every bill that seems to come in front of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn the Part 5 discussion of this bill, we found that standards are being imported into the RMA and there was no comfort provided by the Minister that those standards would meet the purpose of the Resource Management Act, which is sustainable management. He said that they are there to improve water services, but it was unclear that they were going to improve the receiving environment: our rivers and coastlines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo I think that Lan Pham\u2019s suggestion is a very good one, going to our ecosystem health but also to our community health. This relates back to my suggested amendment to Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendment that this is going to put more expense on our ratepayers and some of our most vulnerable community members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThat is why the name of the bill needs to change. My preference is \u201CLocal Government (Water Services Done Badly and More Expensively with Worse Environmental Outcomes) Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f3bf9bc12a34278a9f1a59152fb5912\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224af4f4928d164d7aaa48ee95ce4ea67e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Steve Abel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022449d1430fc924469ac8c286c178000cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022449d1430fc924469ac8c286c178000cf\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, sorry\u2014I see the Chair\u2019s changed. Thank you, Madam Chair, very much. Look, it\u2019s useful for us to reflect, as my colleagues have previously done, that this is a bill about water. The Secretary-General of the United Nations 24 years ago said that \u201CAccess to safe water is a fundamental human need and, therefore, a basic human right. Contaminated water jeopardizes both the physical and social health of all people. It is an affront to human dignity.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo in speaking to the title of this bill and speaking to the failure of this bill to address the fundamental challenges we have in terms of local communities\u2019 access to safe and uncontaminated drinking water, I want to acknowledge that the Minister refused the option for an amendment that ensured an equality of access to water. That has fundamentally disadvantaged our rural people more than any, because most New Zealanders, 80 percent of New Zealanders, have access to drinking water that is about 1 or lower milligrams per litre of nitrate\u2014and that\u2019s a safe level of nitrate to be in water. But 800,000 New Zealanders are exposed to potentially hazardous levels of nitrate in their drinking water, and they are mostly in rural New Zealand. The community in Gore right now, the 8,000 people who were unable to drink their water a couple of weeks ago\u2014they\u2019re now allowed to drink it, but it\u2019s still exceedingly elevated for nitrate. That is an example of where our rural communities are being failed by this legislation, because it does not allow the proper care of water services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll make a final point before I propose a new title for the bill based on this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218ad1f254ea7457690c3744ab900e32d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I was waiting for the title and commencement piece to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd196456d46a493d8fb7841b16c8a82f\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I will give you a title, I promise you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a4f341b308148bd9632c063047572c9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b4290a81aa54cc5afd8428d7cb75d04\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m giving you the context for the title. Of those 800,000 New Zealanders who are most exposed to hazardous levels of nitrate, many of them are on household bore supplies, supplies of water for under 25 people\u2014this bill does not deal with those people. And those people are the ones that are most likely to be subject to the hundred cases of new bowel cancer every year and 40 deaths every year attributable to nitrate in drinking water in this country, New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ELast night we had a bill which I proposed the title should be the \u201CConsenting to Cancer-causing Contamination and Other Systems Bill\u201D. It was another water-related bill. This bill currently has the title of the Local Government (Water Services) Bill. But to sharpen the focus of the community and the Government on the fact that this bill is not addressing that critical problem of nitrate contamination, which predominantly comes from the dairy industry, I propose that this bill be called the \u201CLocal Government (Funeral Services) Bill\u201D, because there will be people who fall ill as a result of the weakness of the water systems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db9aac40e8c24118bb6ac3ae5bce75af\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Must be serious!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8d20cbe1240454ba80a042dbee8d1f6\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely serious. There are an exceedingly high number of cases of E-coli that lead to serious illness and, in certain instances, death, and there are people who are dying from bowel cancer as a result of nitrate contamination. That\u2019s why I suggested we call it the Local Government (Funeral Services) Bill\u201D. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u00223ee844142b254fb3a34ffe6c05202cf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ee844142b254fb3a34ffe6c05202cf5\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Minister for Rural Communities):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. I just seek your guidance here, Madam Chair. There were some fairly outrageous claims made within the naming of that clause. There\u2019s more nitrates in vegetables than there are in water. So that\u2019s by far the way that people ingest nitrates in this country. So to draw a cause and effect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd732b8f3982409b9d9d01d23f3c9056\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Vegetables aren\u2019t killing people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acd5289fcd164f8a821f4819f3a9a5ec\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and essentially say this bill\u2019s\u2014well, if you\u2019re talking about nitrates\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c30368d9ffb4dbb8b81f8297da0005b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a point of order, not a debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bac5b000ad748408b4397c87ff11916\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. So I think to draw the conclusion about the cause and effect, that the bill that the Minister is proposing is somehow going to kill people, I think that is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dd72941036b46198f9b61fd06a3fe88\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I take the member\u2019s point of order, but there is literature and conversation out there about the points that Mr Abel raised. So I\u2019m going to leave that there as part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022a93832baa9614a489a3c8003c31aecbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a93832baa9614a489a3c8003c31aecbc\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221b60df5afb924a3aad23e646c428c538\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002293e6749c81474ee6ad97c9ac4c6377d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293e6749c81474ee6ad97c9ac4c6377d9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 is out of order as not being an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 is out of order as not being an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b7002036b6824930865a6fa391fd9e8b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222f984e12efcd47c7b8bf6a17d86ba198\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f984e12efcd47c7b8bf6a17d86ba198\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to clause 2 set out on Amendment Paper 346 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225c60244eab034e5d9946f42b078e6a9f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Minister\u2019s amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226cedfd3ff8e04e27b9624eabff985272\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cedfd3ff8e04e27b9624eabff985272\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s amendments to clause 2 set out on Amendment Paper 342 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222d3b12f65c3543c7b927a3498fd2ab16\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f2b7a9e9cbe24a698df55a5d07a43726\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d8a3fab8891e4dca986c5620f0f76eee\u0022\u003EAmendment Paper 345\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u00221d6945798b54464d9e25e50f92564deb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d6945798b54464d9e25e50f92564deb\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That Amendment Paper 345 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022da8de3a78367459d9dd9bc3006e46edc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da8de3a78367459d9dd9bc3006e46edc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. All those in favour say Aye\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1e5d676d6484eae9bc5682e63e8c017\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dad3ea372f54e1e83d398b6b8c6e4d0\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022823d4c0dea094409b22fa26e9e0e0ae8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I\u2019m voting. Is there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271f0faccf0da4a62aef42cf9627769e1\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: But this is debatable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254f6dc2aa58e400c85de237d54eb1547\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d374673e81418e923213efb2458bcc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. I\u2019ve jumped the gun a bit here. I\u2019ve just been advised that is a debatable motion, so I will call Tangi Utikere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d852f95e77084465bd9e23cbd68bc5c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d852f95e77084465bd9e23cbd68bc5c3\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, it\u2019s unusual that we deal with a motion to divide a bill; it\u2019s not something that happens very often. I\u2019ve had a chance to look at the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper 345, which seeks to do exactly that, and I appreciate that the content currently before the committee is a very discrete one, around whether the bill should be divided or whether it shouldn\u2019t be divided. Given that this is something that does not happen very often, I think it would be helpful if the Minister in the chair was able indicate to the committee exactly why it is that he has sought to take this course of action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ECertainly, the Minister has moved the motion, but we have not received an explanation. The only explanation that we do have is what is listed on the Amendment Paper, in the form of the explanatory note, which simply indicates that the Amendment Paper divides the Local Government (Water Services) Bill and the Local Government (Water Services) (Repeals and Amendments) Bill. But there is no explanation currently before the committee as to why this course of action should be ascended to by the committee. I do hope the Minister does take up that opportunity, because, otherwise, it would be that we would not be supportive of that, at this particular point in time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other question that I do have for the Minister, in seeking this course of action, is if it\u2019s to, basically, separate the fact that there is an existing piece of legislation\u2014known as the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Act\u2014and that some of the content in the bill, particularly what is Part 5 and Schedules 5 to 12, is related to that and, therefore, it\u2019s redundant. It would be good to know that. But at the moment, we can only infer that that might be the rationale or the reason for this course of action. Even having said that, it\u2019s important, I think, to understand that the bill, as it currently stands, would none the less, even it if it wasn\u2019t divided, still provide avenues to address any of the concerns or opportunities that would be required for enactment. That\u2019s why it\u2019s a little bit perplexing as to why there is a desire to separate the two bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s certain that the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Act would still continue to remain in place. I mean, the Act is already in place, but this would seek to, basically, ensure that the two are separated. So the clarity, I think, is important. I\u2019m sure colleagues on this side of the House may also have some points, particularly given that this a very rare and unusual occurrence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022 data-id=\u00229b32841d18b9464ba8e2e34e33c374c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b32841d18b9464ba8e2e34e33c374c2\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I also welcome this opportunity to just ask the Minister a few questions regarding the motion, noting that the standard motion debate rules apply\u2014that I only get this one opportunity to make this contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EI echo the sentiments of my colleague Tangi Utikere in terms of the rationale for the division of the two bills, since there is a non-existent explanatory note that has been provided in Amendment Paper 345. But just for clarity, for the Minister as well, in addition to the questions that were raised previously by Tangi Utikere, additional questions I have are in terms of, potentially, the arbitrariness of the decision in the separation of Part 5 as a separate bill, as opposed to other parts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EThe reason I mention that is because if we\u2019re looking at the second component of this legislation\u2014which is the Local Government (Water Services Repeals and Amendments) Bill, which splits out Part 5 and Schedules 5 to 12\u2014one of the things that is of immediate observation is Part 5 not only amends and repeals but there are also other parts that do the same. My first question to the Minister, then, is if Part 5, which is amendments to other legislation, is split out, why is Part 6, which also includes additional amendments to other legislation or miscellaneous provisions\u2014in many cases, when we\u2019re looking at Part 6 around offences and amendments to certain offences\u2014not also considered as part of the second part of this bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAlso, with regards to the idea of repeal and amendment, what I\u2019m also not getting the clarity on within the second bill is: what, then, is repealed and what, then, is amended? Under the previous water services bill that was introduced a couple of years ago, I don\u0027t recall\u2014and please correct me, then, if I\u0027m wrong\u2014that things around civil defence and emergency management, as an example, were also a part of that. So it would be helpful for the Minister to clarify that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EOn to the schedules: while we\u0027re seeing that Schedules 5 to 12 are to also be a part of a separate bill, we\u0027re also seeing that in Schedules 5 to 12 there are other things that potentially may interact with certain things that would be involved with the first part of the bill, which is water services. I think, for example, when we\u0027re looking at insertions into the Commerce Act and also the Local Government Act and the Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Act, again, I understand if Schedule 8 is split out, because it makes specific reference to water services preliminary arrangements, but it would be good to know from the Minister why some of the other ones are also split out into the second bill, but not, for example, Schedule 1, which is around transitional, savings, and related provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223cc9806d-f7ef-4e23-a218-442f20bf8591\u0022\u003EAnd then finally, just overall, it would be good to have clarity from the Minister on why the bill needs to be split in the first place. We\u0027ve only seen one other instance this term\u2014unfortunately, I wasn\u0027t here previously to know if this is a common occurrence with other bills, but this is only the second time we\u0027ve seen such a split of a bill in this term. So I wondered if this is something that is going to be more of a common occurrence as well, going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u002275d27fcc205d4f66bba0ff8f643db2d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275d27fcc205d4f66bba0ff8f643db2d8\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora t\u0101tou. Part 5 amends and repeals several Acts, and they\u2019re of more of a substantial nature\u2014the provisions in Part 5. Something similar happened, actually, with the recently amended gangs legislation. Part 6, really, contains more consequential amendments, so it is retained in the initial bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u00227a69a172991c412ca7a90e4833ac398f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a69a172991c412ca7a90e4833ac398f\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c5f9be550f2342909d2d5aa21005ab47\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022820e6b1154f0474f8beb934121a8f396\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Amendment Paper 345 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment Paper 345 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000223\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Local Government (Water Services) Bill and the Local Government (Water Services) (Repeals and Amendments) Bill, as set out on Amendment Paper 345.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000224\u0022\u003EBills to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022337d1302c3674c2e9444ca078fb03ff6\u0022\u003EHauraki Gulf / T\u012Bkapa Moana Marine Protection Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224ca8dd9970b94eb89de1e22aa45643c5\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cda428d655294ea5967f3fbe55dc9ab6\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00225f101780870b4c10bc74696834b2fab1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f101780870b4c10bc74696834b2fab1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Right. Members, we now come to the Hauraki Gulf / T\u012Bkapa Moana Marine Protection Bill. We come first to Part\u00A01. Part 1 is the debate on clauses\u00A03 to 9A\u2014\u201CPreliminary provisions\u201D\u2014and Schedule\u00A01. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022566ab0a273d9402ab9f98d87641acd8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022566ab0a273d9402ab9f98d87641acd8f\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This bill is the culmination of many, many years of collaborative hard work. Labour, in Government, built on the work that was done through the Sea Change\u2014Tai Timu Tai Pari Hauraki Gulf marine spatial plan with a number of stakeholders that were brought together: iwi, hap\u016B, local and central government, and various other entities that had interest in the Hauraki Gulf. There was then a Government strategy that was developed in response to the marine proposals in the Sea Change plan; a ministerial advisory committee that was set up to provide independent advice. Various interests in the Hauraki Gulf were balanced very carefully through this decade-long process, and that has led us\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0c094c90d3742b0b721cfbd1fc0e72c\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Ten years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf4f076f9e90404292ea8b3d6df54a98\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: Over 10 years of work\u2014and that has led us to where we are today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe Hauraki Gulf / T\u012Bkapa Moana Marine Protection Bill was introduced to this House, and it had its first reading in August 2023. The Environment Committee considered thousands of submissions and reported back in June 2024. Members unanimously recommended that this House passed this bill with no substantive change. The second reading happened in November 2024, but, of course, prior to the second reading in November last year, the Minister of Conservation signalled that there would be some amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EHere we are today\u2014and we know why. At the eleventh hour, this Government has decided to turn over or overturn or interfere with years and years of collaborative work, to bring in a change that will weaken this bill, and here we are today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister in the chair tried to take credit for this bill during scrutiny week at select committee, and that\u2019s why I wanted to start by laying out that there has been many years of work by many players, and all this Government and this Minister has done is to delay it and weaken it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESince there\u2019s been no select committee process for the amendments, I want to read a few of the comments that we\u2019ve seen in the media around these particular amendments. Ng\u0101ti Rehua Ng\u0101tiwai ki Aotea says, \u201CWe see once again that money talks and that we are left with a degrading moana,\u201D\u2014 because, of course, this is a bill that could have been passed in 2024; should have been, but it wasn\u2019t. While that delay happened, while Ministers were lobbied by the fishing industry to weaken this bill, the moana has been degrading, and we\u2019ve all seen that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EEnvironmentalists are questioning the economic basis for the Government\u2019s decision to weaken proposed marine protections in the Hauraki Gulf. We know that both Department of Conservation officials and fisheries officials were opposed to these changes on the basis that it will undermine the biodiversity outcomes and objectives, and that it would actually also lead to significant inequity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EOver 32,000 people have signed an open letter to the Prime Minister, Christopher Luxon, asking that this Government reverse the rash changes\u2014these amendments that we\u2019re debating today\u2014that allow fishing in the high protection areas (HPAs). Labour, if re-elected, will reverse these changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWhat I want to ask the Minister is, really: why? That is the question that everyone out there, outside of the fishing industry, is asking. What is the economic basis for this? All we\u2019ve seen is about $14,000 of fishing revenue across all of the HPAs, which means it will be significantly less, given the amendments allow fishing in two HPAs. So what is the economic basis? What advice, what evidence, has the Minister seen on that? I also want to know what evidence, what advice, the Minister has seen on the impact on biodiversity objectives, specifically as a result of the amendments that he\u2019s bringing to the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00224f6866eee1d84df582342de78fa89391\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f6866eee1d84df582342de78fa89391\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to take a short call on Part 1 and indicate that I will have a lot more substantive comments to make and questions to ask in Part 2. A lot of the parts of this bill that I want to dig into are covered off in Part 2. I\u2019m just signalling that right now. This will be just a short introductory call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI have a really specific question to the Minister of Conservation. It\u2019s off the back of a Cabinet paper that was put forward by him. I\u2019m just going to reference it. In the beginning of that Cabinet paper, his own Cabinet paper from earlier this year in relation to Government priorities, the National Party Blueprint for a Better Environment states that the National Party will accelerate initiatives like the Hauraki Gulf marine protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWhy it\u2019s important that we take time today in this committee stage is that the Minister has tabled an amendment today that has not been through the select committee process. So members on this side of the committee\u2014in fact, all members, including members of the National Party and the ACT Party who unanimously agreed to the Environment Committee report and are now part of a Government putting forward changes to that select committee report. We have not had the chance to look at that at a select committee, which means that we do need to dig into, today, in the committee of the whole House stage, as to why these changes have come forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo this is a Cabinet paper that was put forward earlier this year, in the name of the Minister for Conservation, Tama Potaka, that talks about Government priorities. And here it is. I\u2019m just going to show it to the committee. Here it is, the National Party Blueprint for a Better Environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EMy question for the Minister is that the National Party promised to accelerate the Hauraki Gulf protection bill\u2014promised to accelerate it\u2014yet they have been in Government for nearly two years. The select committee reported back one year ago. What we are seeing now, one year later, is an Amendment Paper from the Minister which, essentially, has delayed this bill and it has weakened this bill. My question to the Minister is: has he; has the Prime Minister, Christopher Luxon; and has the National Party broken their promise to New Zealanders? I put that they have. They have not accelerated this bill, and they have weakened this bill. That is my question to the Minister on the record today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022359243d7ebbd4cbfae2517baca91610a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022359243d7ebbd4cbfae2517baca91610a\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to go straight to the purpose of the Act and keep this call very short, because I want to outline that, as we\u2019ve heard from my colleagues, the implication of the Government\u2019s amendments, which were put in place post the unanimous support of the select committee, have implications throughout the entire bill. We\u2019ve just been into the Resource Management (Consenting and Other System Changes) Amendment Bill and the Local Government (Water Services) Bill, and I\u2019m very conscious that, at times in both of those, but particularly in the resource management bill, there were allegations of repetition when it was not actually repetition, because it was actually relevant to that very clause. We\u2019re going to see the same thing with this bill, but it\u2019s in very different aspects of the bill. I would really appreciate the patience and the allowance of us to do our due diligence in terms of this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df7d980e46c44083aed57417b6d039a7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member points to the clauses at that particular time, that makes it that much easier for us to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258a53f34235847b3a5e1a1f3b1c10994\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you so much, Madam Chair. What I want to ask, when it comes to the purpose of this Act\u2014and I\u2019m really pleased, actually, that we have this purpose in place. But my absolute concern, and what I would like to hear from the Minister, is that, given the changes that have been put in place with the Amendment Paper, particularly when it comes to the exemptions for commercial fishing in the high protection areas, and the fact that we know, from the advice given, that these had the ability to directly undermine the biodiversity objectives of the bill, does the Minister still believe that the purpose of this Act can be upheld given the amendments that are now in place? I\u2019d like to really clearly hear the Minister\u2019s response to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6fefd6c6b714bcbb0c9e4ecfaf28ca6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6fefd6c6b714bcbb0c9e4ecfaf28ca6\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a number of questions for the Minister, the Hon Tama Potaka, which relate to Part 1, particularly to his Amendment Paper 260. They begin at clause 4 of that Amendment Paper. I\u2019m asking these questions upfront in the debate because I hope that the Minister will answer some of our questions and concerns before I can ask about the specific parts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy first question is: why have references to wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B been stripped from the bill, when they remain the first responders in dealing with environmental hazards, particularly Caulerpa and monitoring shellfish beds in the Hauraki Gulf?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy second question is specific but relates to that; it is about why Ng\u0101ti Manuhiri and others, who conduct vital restorations around Kawau Island, have been excluded, given they are a hap\u016B and not recognised as an iwi group within this bill. Or is that not the case, because their trust board is Ng\u0101tiwai Trust Board, which is not based where they are? If the Minister could help us to understand that, that would be useful. Ng\u0101ti Manuhiri play a role of customary guardianship. Are they expected to down tools in their work that is actively protecting the gulf from the invasion of Caulerpa while commercial access is being expanded into these areas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI ask those two questions first, because they are illustrative of the approach that we will take with further amendments that are on the Table, to reinsert wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B and make it clear about these groups, which are actively engaged in protections within the gulf currently, who may not fall within the Minister\u2019s new definition, which has excluded wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B from it. It would also be helpful if the Minister could contextualise these changes with what the intentions of the Government are with its policy towards Marine and Coastal Area (MACA) claims, which are all based around the rights of wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B in this area. The Minister will know that around 44 MACA claims are live and active in the Hauraki Gulf area, so it\u2019s important that we consider those changes alongside this change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis Amendment Paper and the questions that I have about it, to Part 1, are made in the context of eleventh-hour changes after 10 years of careful negotiation with stakeholders and various interests in the gulf. Why I ask for the Minister\u2019s clarity before we get into the specific parts is that we have to understand that a number of hap\u016B, a number of wh\u0101nau, are actively engaged, not only in consultation about the precursor of this bill but also the general policy in Tai Timu Tai Pari Sea Change. That has been a collaborative, collegial, and empowering process for those groups. Recognising Crown obligations under Te Tiriti o Waitangi requires us to engage not only with iwi, not only with fisheries rightsholders at a trust board level, many of which are creatures of legislation themselves and have existed since the 1990s. These wh\u0101nau, these hap\u016B who go out every day and monitor the shellfish on Waiheke, monitor the Caulerpa invasion at Great Barrier Aotea, are not included within the definition of what you might expect for an iwi trust board and are certainly not the fisheries rightsholders themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI want the Minister to clarify whether it is his intention to exclude them from the process and to only prioritise the rights of M\u0101ori who are the holders of fisheries assets at the level of the legal body which holds those assets, which is the trust board or iwi level. The Minister needs to be very clear, with not only environmental NGOs but with iwi M\u0101ori, whether it is his intention to exclude those voices of the people on the ground, who get up every day to get into their moana\u2014they put their dive gear on, they look for the crays, and they are doing the work for all of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002282313010799e4eab807181ac8250601e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282313010799e4eab807181ac8250601e\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Like my colleagues, I think most of us will be focusing on the Minister\u2019s big Amendment Paper 260. I want to start and, like other people who have made contributions, I too will be focused on the Minister\u2019s amendments, but, of course, they do relate to the rest of the bill, as Lan Pham just pointed out with the purpose of the Act and whether or not his changes actually now undermine that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI want to go to the interpretation clause. I\u2019m interested in some changes here around both the department and the Minister. I see that we\u2019ve also got definitions for \u201Cgrey mullet\u201D and some other fish as well, which is lovely, but that is not my focus. My focus is on \u201Cdepartment\u201D and \u201CMinister\u201D, in the amendments set out on Amendment Paper 260. I am, of course, interested in this because when this bill was introduced in 2023, I was the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, and we were very pleased to introduce this bill to get it under way before the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut the bill was always in the name of the Minister of Conservation, and the bill at the moment is in the name of the Minister of Conservation, but I\u2019m wondering if these changes to the definition of \u201Cdepartment\u201D and \u201CMinister\u201D are really setting up the Act\u2014and we\u2019ll get to it in a later section about who gives our permits and who does regulations, but that\u2019s not in Part 1\u2014to be administered by the Ministry for Primary Industries, so the fisheries component of that, rather than the Department of Conservation. That would be a large change. My question is: why is this changing? I have some other questions on Part 1, but I will come back to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00229d2458203edf449f831898f4ed96d33f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d2458203edf449f831898f4ed96d33f\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. As my colleagues have pointed to, we do have a number of questions that relate particularly to Amendment Paper 260, but just before I get into the detail of that, I have three specific questions for the Minister, given, again, that these amendments have a bearing\u2014have an impact\u2014on the bill in its entirety, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EFirstly, I want to know what advice the Minister has considered, what evidence he has seen, that has led to his claim that the amendment to allow fishing in high protection areas (HPAs) will not undermine the biodiversity objectives of this bill, given that his own officials and environmentalists have been very clear that they will undermine the biodiversity objectives of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe second question I have is in relation to the Minister\u0027s comment that his rationale for allowing fishing in HPAs is this Government\u0027s response to the cost of living crisis in New Zealand. He has said that this helps people facing a cost of living crisis, many of which don\u0027t have the ability to access this fishery. Now, his claim\u2014his rationale\u2014has been met with heavy criticism, including from Ng\u0101i Tai ki T\u0101maki, whose island, Motutapu, is one of two areas where fishing will be permitted as a result of the changes in Amendment Paper 260. They have said, \u201CTo claim that this decision has been made in response to the impact of cost of living increases for M\u0101ori and Pacific wh\u0101nau, and then specifically for South Auckland, as a justification for allowing commercial enterprise in this area, it\u2019s weak\u201D. They have then gone on to say that this is the first that they have heard of this rationale and hoped that the claim can be backed up by the Ministry for Primary Industries\u2019 FishServe data. That\u2019s my second question to this Minister: what data backs up this Minister\u0027s claim that this is the Government\u0027s response to the cost of living crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe third question that I would like to ask the Minister is around a claim that has been made in the media by Seafood New Zealand. We know, of course, that they have lobbied Minister Jones for this change, and the conservation Minister has had to now backtrack and ensure that the amendments brought to this House that we are considering today will actually back the promises that this Government has given to New Zealand to accelerate this bill and to improve the health of T\u012Bkapa Moana\u2014Hauraki Gulf, neither of which they have actually delivered. So my third question is: Seafood New Zealand has said that these exceptions are grandfathered, meaning that once these fishes leave the profession, no one else can fish where they fish. Where in the bill\u2014where in the amendments, Minister\u2014are the provisions to grandfather these permits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u00221dabe55edf414b75888b22bead4774e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dabe55edf414b75888b22bead4774e8\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My questions go to clause 3 and the purpose, and I would be interested in the Minister\u2019s experience in working with his colleague in tourism and the role that sustainable tourism and protection of the natural environment work together. A number of the submissions to the Hauraki Gulf / T\u012Bkapa Moana Marine Protection Bill, particularly when they were unaware of the recent changes, did talk about the opportunities for sustainable tourism, and I wonder whether he feels that the purpose, in some ways, is still a little narrow, in that it\u2019s not talking about the restoration of economic opportunities as well for well-protected marine areas. As our moana connects us to the rest of the world, I had an example that maybe, in my view, is quite an inspiring example: very recently, earlier this year, Argentina expanded its marine protected areas in a Patagonian area which has got low tourism numbers\u2014unlike, of course, Cathedral Cove\u2014and they really felt that integrating regenerative principles into tourism would optimise economic benefits for those coastal communities while safeguarding natural resources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI feel that this bill is, to some extent, still a siloed approach. It doesn\u2019t refer to the wider benefits. I wonder if the Minister feels that some mention of those opportunities that were referred to in submissions would help us see how we can actually manage those really low-impact activities\u2014I\u2019m talking about kayaking, snorkelling, scuba-diving, without the catching aspect of it\u2014and whether that aspect has been overlooked in the purpose of the bill, and to what extent those changes that have come in after the consultation\u2014not having had the enjoyment of being on the Environment Committee to see this all its way through, I went back and looked at them, and, of course, there are so many organisations saying, \u201CWe stand by this bill; this is a wonderful bill; we agree with it\u201D, and then those changes came in later. I look forward to elucidation from the Minister on those points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00223888cf743eae491492d3f6c57be9f69d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223888cf743eae491492d3f6c57be9f69d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019m going to take a call from the Minister. Just before I do, I wanted to clarify the questions that have been asked about wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B: technically, they\u2019re in Part 3, but I\u2019m going to allow the Minister to answer that question because it fits in the interests of iwi that are in this Part 1. I think it will help to clarify that early rather than having to wait until Part 3 for that to be clarified. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3971c13eeef48b8b0de5de107157640\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3971c13eeef48b8b0de5de107157640\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Ng\u0101 mihi e te Tiamana, and I respect and appreciate your kindness in that regard. Kia hora te marino, kia whakapapa pounamu te moana, kia tere te k\u0101rohirohi ki mua i a t\u0101tou. May the widespread be calm, may the oceans glisten like greenstone, and may the shimmer of light guide your way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThere are a number of people I can acknowledge, from those who were involved in the initial work around sea change in the time of the Key-English Government through to those legislators, some of whom are still inside the House today, who embarked on this mission to increase the marine protection in Te P\u0101taka-kai a T\u012Bkapa Moana, Te Moana-nui-a-Toi-te-huatahi [the food stores of the Hauraki Gulf and the Bay of Plenty], but particularly those community, iwi, commercial, business, charitable organisations that were involved over time to ensure that the marine protection of this iconic and majestic place is elevated, and indeed accelerated, hopefully this week and next week to receive the Royal assent soon thereafter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThere have been a number of questions that have been asked, particularly around the ring-net fishing, which I think is in Part 2, but I\u2019ll deal to them right now in order to enable a more focused line of questioning when we get to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EOf course, the questions around ring-net fishing in some ways reflect the environmental pragmatism that this coalition Government is bringing to a number of environmental laws, and the difference between ideology and implementation, excitement and execution. And whilst there are views\u2014strong views, strong assertions\u2014that there is unanimous support across the House, as evidenced by the select committee comments, I might represent that not all parties in this House are represented in that select committee. So let\u2019s not fall for perception but get back to reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe acceleration of this legislation is critical. After six years of a previous Government seeking to progress this legislation, we have now got the ball, and we\u2019ll take it over the line. Despite the majority Government that existed for three years\u2014and legislators across the other side of the House know this\u2014they were unable to secure the final readings which will come in the next week or two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EIn terms of the amendments proposed, will the purpose be upheld? Absolutely, the purpose will be upheld, but let\u2019s not get caught in the extremities of an ideology that might not be able to procure an enduring solution for these matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EIn terms of the ring-net fishing, there were questions that were asked around the impact that it will have on biodiversity objectives. And as you know\u2014as members of this House who voraciously read the Amendment Papers, amongst other things, know\u2014it\u2019s not the only fishing that takes place in the high protection areas, is it? No, it\u2019s not. In the high protection areas there is fishing that takes place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d90b4d7d4e941718f84920b2ed88867\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Customary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e74b2c6c83f4240bc74b745c675fc86\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: You got it. So let\u2019s be careful not to assume that there is no fishing in the high protection areas; there actually is fishing there. In addition to that, I\u2019m advised that there will be limited impacts on the biodiversity objectives by this very narrow and acute provision for ring-net fishing. There are practical thresholds that we work with and we seek to facilitate in the engagement and consultation and liaison processes around not only iwi, wh\u0101nau, and hap\u016B engagement but also community engagement, hence why the elevation of iwi rather than wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi has been proposed. That does not mean wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B miss out, as the member would understand, but there are ways to channel that in a more efficient and deliberate posture than what was earlier proposed. That is why we have used the iwi in the amendment rather than wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi, but wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B continue to participate at an iwi level because, as members know, all wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B have iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe allegation that Ng\u0101ti Manuhiri is not an iwi I don\u2019t think will fall very kindly on the ears of the co-chair of the Hauraki Gulf Forum, Nicola MacDonald, or her thick-as-thieves partner Mook Hohneck, who continually remind us that Ng\u0101ti Manuhiri are an iwi. But I need not resort to Te K\u0101hui M\u0101ngai and the list of iwi that exists on the Te Puni K\u014Dkiri website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EIn relation to the rationale for allowing fishing, and the comments made about the great iwi of Ng\u0101i Tai ki T\u0101maki, I actually talked to the leaders of Ng\u0101i Tai ki T\u0101maki\u2014unlike some other members of this House\u2014and I\u2019m well ensconced in their views around progressing the marine protection that is currently articulated in the bill and the Amendment Papers. They are absolutely enthused by the approach that has been taken to get this bill to a third reading and over the line rather than ongoing pontification about the ideological extremes of environmental radicalism. So we will get this moving. Seafood New Zealand\u2014yes, they\u2019ve made comments, but they are not the legislators, we are. They do not have parliament.nz or parliament.govt.nz on their emails.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EHowever, we will have a three-year review, and that three-year review will check in on whether or not the ring-net fishing is appropriate. I\u2019m sure that it\u2019ll be one that is topical and will go long into the evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThere were other comments around guaranteeing that all fish caught within the areas will supply local communities\u2014those that are interested in Kahawai, Trevally, and Grey Mullet, typically of low interest to the export market. Again, whilst we cannot trace where every single fish caught actually goes, we do know that these types of fish are generally destined for domestic consumption and more affordable than other protein options, whether or not that\u2019s pea protein, whey protein, or fish protein.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EI think that\u2019s probably captured most of the questions that have been asked and I\u2019m sure that the Part 2 questions will be a lot more narrowed accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u00227868821420b3438da0fd273ebd88b9b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227868821420b3438da0fd273ebd88b9b6\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank the Minister of Conservation for at least attempting to address these very serious concerns that we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThe first thing that I wanted to pick up on was the Minister\u2019s comments about the extremities of ideologies and environmental radicalism. He talked about that in the context of what he described as \u201Cenvironmental pragmatism\u201D. A genuine question that I have about that is: does the Minister\u2019s \u201Cenvironmental pragmatism\u201D, as he so calls it, actually align with ecological evidence? I\u2019m interested in asking that because we also just heard the Minister say that, actually, the Department of Conservation (DOC) has advised that the ring-net exemptions will have minimal impact on biodiversity objectives. I\u2019m wondering how that aligns with previous advice that it risked undermining the biodiversity objective. So if the Minister could, please, clarify how that works, maybe DOC has more information or new information that we were unaware of. So I\u2019m really keen to hear that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI want to also move to clause 5 in the interpretation. My comments and Amendment Paper on this are on page 7 of the Government\u2019s Amendment Paper to the bill. Why it directly relates to the biodiversity objectives question, which I\u2019d be really keen to hear a response on, is because it\u2019s about the very description itself and the definition of these so-called high protection areas. What I would like is direction and information about that, because, from my understanding of it, it would be inappropriate to call these areas \u201Chigh protection areas\u201D. My proposed amendment is to actually replace the definition of \u201Chigh protection area\u201D with \u201Ccompromised protected area\u201D. That could be more in line with the advice that the Minister has given or received from DOC\u2014if that is the case, because we\u2019re yet to hear a definitive answer on that. That would mean that in every mention of \u201Chigh protection area\u201D, it would then be replaced with \u201Ccompromised protection area\u201D. I think it would be really valuable for the Minister to directly address how an area allowing commercial fishing can still be considered a high protection area, and is that definition in need of amendment to actually align with the advice that he\u2019s received with the environmental evidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWhat we also know about these high protection areas is that some of them are of huge ecological value. It is areas like Tiritiri Matangi, actually, that the Environment Committee that I was on when we considered this bill actually visited and we got the whole show, including dolphins, and it\u0027s of critical importance. If this bill is actually going to achieve the things that it says it\u2019s going to achieve in terms of improving biodiversity outcomes, we need to be really clear about what we\u2019re saying and why and whether these areas are truly compromised or otherwise. I\u2019d be really keen to hear advice from the Minister. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022da45fa5d899c47c6ba3c87da2c0c878b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da45fa5d899c47c6ba3c87da2c0c878b\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Still on Part 1, and very specific questions to Part 1. The Minister didn\u0027t answer my question about changes to clause 5, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, around the department and the Minister: are we moving from conservation to fish? Then I\u0027m also interested\u2014he might want to comment on the definition of \u201Cring net fishing\u201D, if it means the use of a ring net for fishing? If that\u2019s specific enough or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen I also want to touch on new clause 5B\u2014this is \u201CHow this Act applies biodiversity objectives\u201D\u2014and (d) has been struck out, which refers to another part of the bill, which is \u201Csection 67 provides for the making of regulations\u201D. He might want to touch on why that regulation-making power appears to be being removed. Is it because\u2014is it his opinion that everything in this bill is already sufficient to achieve the biodiversity objectives without the need for a regulation, or is there some other reason for that deletion? We can come to it in a later part, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI also want to go, now, to new clause 9A, across the page on page 12, and this is the \u201CNo entitlement to compensation\u201D, and this has been struck out. Where before it was clear that the Crown was not liable to pay compensation, now that\u0027s gone, so presumably the Crown is now liable to pay compensation. That seems to be a rather large policy change, and it would be good if the Minister could tell the House why it is that he thinks that there should be that ability for the Crown to provide compensation, and, also, if he has any advice on what the magnitude of that compensation might be and when that might have to be paid? That might relate to questions later in the bill about our grandparenting of ring-net fishing, but it seems to be, actually, well beyond the ring-net fishing changes that we\u0027ve got coming up. This is for, presumably, everything that is happening at the moment that will change because of this bill passing. I\u0027m very keen to hear about compensation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u0027m also keen to note that the Minister, in his wide-ranging contribution before, talked about being \u201Cpragmatic\u201D, and it appears that his definition\u2014and it\u0027s one that I hear a lot from Government parties\u2014is just to make environmental effects worse. He then says that we on this side of the House are \u201Cidealistic\u201D, and I\u0027m wondering if his definition of idealistic is just when people want to improve the environment? Is that what he\u0027s talking about\u2014that idealism is wanting to improve the environment, whereas pragmatism is wanting to make the environment worse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f795b08f58d14662af2a6d432e2ddeff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f795b08f58d14662af2a6d432e2ddeff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1ee8b9eda4c4cd6b69c7419473c3744\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1ee8b9eda4c4cd6b69c7419473c3744\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Did you say my name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022272e942f2fb347c19b8798abf5dc456b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I did. Sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294f881bb96f94274a41ac7f7bdb49358\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, it is a shame that the Minister of Conservation wasn\u2019t able to provide any evidence around the impact that the particular amendment would have on biodiversity outcomes or how he shores up his claim that this will go to communities in South Auckland that need additional protein.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EHowever, my questions specifically are around particular clauses in Part 1. One is around that definition of ring-net fishing. Given that the Minister did not respond with any evidence around the impact of the ring-net fishing, and given that the definition of it is in Part 1, I do want to draw his attention to comments that have been made in the public domain, bearing in mind that these amendments have not gone through a select committee process. All we can rely on in terms of comments from stakeholders are through conversations or through what they\u2019ve said in the media.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI refer to what has been said by World Wildlife Fund in the media around allowing commercial fishing to occur in these high protection areas. They have said that the type of fishing that is allowed to continue\u2014which is, of course, ring-net fishing and is set out in the definition\u2014is very similar to purse seining and targets bait fish species that congregate in the mid-water and which predator species like snapper rely on for survival. Key species like the kahawai are already overfished in the Hauraki Gulf, and the impact up the food chain is evident when you look at snapper populations and how emaciated they are as well. Given that kahawai is included in the type of fish that will be allowed to be caught in the high protection area, again, I ask the Minister: what is the impact on biodiversity objectives to those types of fish that we\u2019re trying to protect by bringing in a high protection area, which is just below the no-take marine reserve when it comes to the hierarchy of protection? That is my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EGoing on to clause 5B(1)(d), which is deleted; which is removed from the legislation by this amendment in Amendment Paper 260. My question is: why? Basically, 5B(1)(d) lays out that \u201Csection 67 provides for the making of regulations that provide additional management actions relating to [HPAs] where [the] restrictions [that are] imposed by [regs] made under section 66 are [insufficient] to [meet] the biodiversity objectives.\u201D No idea what the Minister\u2019s doing in the chair, but I don\u2019t know how this makes any sense in terms of it being deleted. That\u2019s my second question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe third question that I have, also relating to Part 1, is to new clause 8A. I get the signposting in clause\u00A05, I think it is\u2014well, the signposting of the Treaty settlement. That\u2019s fine and it\u2019s explained in the Cabinet paper as well. But 8A, I understand, is quite unusual. I\u2019d like the Minister to explain why this clause has been introduced and when it specifically relates to existing Treaty settlements. Is it in there because there are some future Treaty settlements that will be exempted\u2014excluded\u2014from this particular clause? If not, why has this clause been introduced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbdedf35c299488bbea5a250fd589e4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbdedf35c299488bbea5a250fd589e4b\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for those various questions and one frivolous suggestion around amending the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EIn relation to the points around which department is responsible for the administration of the Act, I think members will be aware that there have been budgets committing to an appropriation to support the implementation of the Act once passed. They are retained within the Department of Conservation and, of course, the Department of Conservation, particularly with the recent appointment of the regional manager in Auckland, have significant depth around understanding the nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240d991fe4bb94cffa4708486f7455867\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Is that all you got? Alex\u2019ll fix it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246619383b18747f8897f3dfd5b1bbf0e\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know what that outburst was about, but they have significant depth around the implementation of the bill once passed into legislation. That\u2019s my expectation. I don\u2019t think that there\u2019s anything untoward or sinister in the wording of that provision, that clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EIn terms of new clause 9A, the no-compensation clause, there is some consistency with the approach being proposed with the marine reserves legislation, and the economic impact analysis suggests that there\u2019s no situation here that would warrant a claim for compensation. It\u2019s not expected. Well, it\u2019s not expected that there will be claims as the impact of setting out and implementing both seafloor protection areas and high protection areas would not be significant enough to warrant compensation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EIn terms of section 67, in new clause 5B(d), the bill proposes that customary non-commercial fishing does not sit within the establishment of the biodiversity objectives and plan. One of the reasons why is because customary fishing is actually managed under the Fisheries Act, and we do not believe that it is warranted or suitable to add yet another layer of bureaucracy on the exercise of customary\u2014or could we say tikanga\u2014responsibilities within the Hauraki Gulf. So I think that, again, people might think that there\u2019s something unusual going on here. It\u2019s not. There\u2019s a degree of efficiency between sections 66 and 67. Now that we are proposing to remove customary non-commercial fishing from the ambit of the plan around biodiversity, there is no longer any need to have both of those sections, and we\u2019ve collapsed them together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EOh, there\u2019s one more note\u2014I think I\u2019ve touched on that. Standard drafting in relation to the department, the question that the member Brooking had: is the purpose of the bill too narrow as it doesn\u2019t refer to benefits of low impact activities such as sustainable tourism? No, we believe that the purpose of the bill is the protection of the environment and the rights and interests and responsibilities of mana moana, but we do anticipate benefits for tourism and, as someone who\u2019s had the responsibility to apply for, seek, and prosecute concessions in the Gulf for tourism purposes, I have a little bit of understanding around how those processes operate and the potential for those tourism interests to actually increase and enlarge as a result of more environmental protection and marine protection in the Gulf, and also the consequential benefits that come from that, whether or not that\u2019s more fish or molluscs or crustaceans, seaweed, and other things that often attract people to the marine space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EI think that might have been most of the questions that have been asked in the past few minutes, so I might take a seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00222f5fc9ddacf84a678fe61cb10702ff60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f5fc9ddacf84a678fe61cb10702ff60\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Labour\u2014Kelston):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister himself just said in his comments that he understands some may think that something unusual is going on, and then he proceeded to defend their stance on the changes they\u0027ve made. But I think that was a really important point. The point I want to make is around consultation and questions in relation to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EGiven the Minister has introduced eleventh-hour changes to the bill that effectively weaken it, when back in 2022 there was extensive engagement with all those that wanted to make a contribution or add their thoughts to this legislation, I think the Minister really needs to answer to this committee and to the general public, particularly Aucklanders: who were the stakeholders that influenced the eleventh-hour changes that have seen an amendment put up that effectively weaken legislation that had been agreed on, and consulted on, and had a consensus drawn after 10 years of work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EHe especially needs to answer to this committee and to Aucklanders who those stakeholders were that have influenced these eleventh-hour changes, given that the change was not supported by officials or by any of the environmental NGOs, and more than 30,000 people signed an open letter urging the Government to reverse its decision, with over 5,000 emails being sent to Ministers in protest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo, my question to the Minister, on behalf of Aucklanders and all those who care about the Hauraki Gulf, is: who were the very important stakeholders that influenced the eleventh-hour changes that weaken this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1430f696dcb49388e6121e494d30143\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1430f696dcb49388e6121e494d30143\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m delighted to be able to take a call in support of my colleagues\u2019 questions. The reason I have asked the Minister of Conservation about the exclusion of wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B in relation to this part is that Amendment Paper 260, in his name, makes changes to the way that Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the Treaty of Waitangi, will be treated in this Act, and we need to be clear how the interaction between his clause 4(1)\u2014\u201CThis Act must be interpreted and administered so as to give effect to the principles of te Tiriti o Waitangi\u201D\u2014should be read, when his changes later in the bill take \u201Cwh\u0101nau\u201D and \u201Chap\u016B\u201D out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt is well-established law that, when giving effect to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, Government, its departments, and any agent acting on its behalf should consider not only iwi M\u0101ori but also wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B. That is why I have asked some specific questions about Ng\u0101ti Manuhiri, and he has said that that is an iwi\u2014that is good and that should stand on the record, here in Parliament, that they are intended to be considered an iwi under this legislation and that there could be no question of that later on. Then I will ask him about every single hap\u016B who is standing to lose under his changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMinister, what are the safeguards to protect Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua \u014Cr\u0101kei\u2019s 20-year mussel bed restoration at \u014Ckahu Bay from being undermined by your amendments? What are the protections for the tamariki wh\u0101nau who have been involved in that restoration project for more years than I have been alive? What is the protection of their legacy and their whakapapa connection to that bay? What are the protections? Because they are not, in the ordinary meaning of the word, an iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat are his protections, given that he has explicitly made a change at the eleventh hour to remove the rights and interests of wh\u0101nau and hap\u016B, for all of the M\u0101ori of Auckland who love the Hauraki Gulf? Aucklanders love our gulf and we need it to be protected. Why is he not standing up to Shane Jones, when it is Shane Jones\u2019 changes at the last minute that have removed protections for the M\u0101ori who get up every day to put on their wetsuits and count the k\u014Dura, to get rid of Caulerpa because it is invading our gulf and our moana\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb0ea415e77646c5b3549c5f4096fc27\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: And you did nothing about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283536010b2a4476397237fa92b589ecf\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014we do that work for everyone. And we have worked for 10 years to get buy-in from stakeholders all around Auckland so they can agree to what is huge and significant step forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI hear Government members saying that we have done nothing about it, when we have fought for six years and introduced this legislation and worked with stakeholders so it is enduring. We worked for cross-partisan support for this, because the wh\u0101nau and the hap\u016B who do this work for all of us should be protected\u2014just to lose it at the last minute to vested interests, to lobbying that has gone on behind the scenes that none of them were included in. Why, Minister, are you breaking the promise that you have made to Aucklanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u00225e0cebde0e354dbeb275d5ec8ee0a753\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e0cebde0e354dbeb275d5ec8ee0a753\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c992317214cb4ac6b8cfabf070424d71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c992317214cb4ac6b8cfabf070424d71\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just noting the repetition that I\u2019m hearing in a very short time, and what I\u2019ve heard from my office. I\u2019m just letting members know that we\u2019re looking for new material and interrogation of the detail within the bill. I call Lan Pham.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u002234a419c897b14752a7c76ebdccc4a53f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234a419c897b14752a7c76ebdccc4a53f\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. I\u2019d just like to point out that there have been a number of questions asked that the Minister has not actually addressed at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a648cfc501424b128d55ef8a511bcd71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a648cfc501424b128d55ef8a511bcd71\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a point of order. I call Lan Pham. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb45c76ff9494b24ae8e1cb9a4db8dc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb45c76ff9494b24ae8e1cb9a4db8dc4\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chairperson. Thank you, Madam Chair. Just speaking to Speaker\u2019s ruling 66/2, I note that there is a convention that, in committee, members in charge of the legislation should not be chipping from the hot mic in front of them. The Minister in the chair has done that a few times, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9b271bf8e3c4d638e77b7a6942d9021\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, but I missed what you just said. Can you please repeat that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d269bb7dfa564b5bb79dbc47c16ba70b\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Madam Chair. I\u2019m referring to the Speaker\u2019s ruling on page 66, and it\u2019s item No. 2 on the page. It\u2019s a longstanding convention that the Minister in the chair in the committee stage shouldn\u2019t chip from the mic, as is the colloquial term, but he is using the hot mic in front of him to disrupt proceedings, and so I hope you can offer him some guidance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002269827bb1bea14bd08cd7601a5958bfff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269827bb1bea14bd08cd7601a5958bfff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I understand\u2014thank you. It was noted, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022264a9426426845a68905c02a3b52568b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022264a9426426845a68905c02a3b52568b\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have a very quick, direct question of clarification from the Minister based on his response. This is particularly in regards to clause 5 and my proposed Amendment Paper. Now, when the Minister mentioned a \u201Cfrivolous\u201D Amendment Paper, I\u2019m interested in, firstly, hearing whether he was referring to this one, because I have not heard a direct answer about the actual advice that he\u2019s been given from the Department of Conservation (DOC), because he said that there would be minimal impact on biodiversity objectives. He said that DOC advised that there would be minimal impact on biodiversity objectives, when the information we\u2019ve had\u2014again, DOC\u2019s official advice\u2014is: \u201CAllowing ring net fishing would undermine the biodiversity outcomes of the high-protection areas.\u201D Which is it? What evidence and what advice has DOC given the Minister to back up the minimal impact on biodiversity objectives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00226890d3f3751c418fac05e6bca1fd5e98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226890d3f3751c418fac05e6bca1fd5e98\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I rise to take a short call on a specific aspect of this amendment, and that is around the customary non-commercial fishing that the Minister made some points to. I have some questions to him based on his response that was given previously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI was just looking for the bit in the Cabinet paper that lays out the Government\u2019s rationale for the change here that will mean that customary fishing is only subject to the Fisheries Act and not will not be required to uphold the biodiversity objectives of this bill. I point to bit in the Cabinet paper that just says that it\u2019s removed from the scope and the regulations; there isn\u2019t a lot of rationale as to why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI have one quick question to the Minister. Submitters had noted that removing the biodiversity objective requirement risks weakening public acceptance of customary fishing in high protection areas (HPAs). That was a point that was raised by a number of submitters to the select committee, many of whom were opposed to the provision of customary fishing within HPAs. Now, I am grateful that the Minister has retained the provision for customary fishing. However, by removing the requirement for it to meet biodiversity objectives and the amendment just pointing to the Fisheries Act, I would like the Minister\u2019s response as to whether he accepts the point that is made by submitters that the social licence for customary fishing is stronger if it is subject to the requirement to meet biodiversity objectives, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd17ca88e6f14e6297c325a65cf5a4f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd17ca88e6f14e6297c325a65cf5a4f8\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is just a quick reminder to the Minister that, of course, we have not had any select committee process over his amendments, and I did not hear him talk about the removal of compensation in new clause 9A. I think that\u2019s very important. Well, I didn\u2019t hear a very good explanation then of what analysis had happened about what the consequential cost could be of this removal so that compensation can now be paid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI also did hear him mention my name in answering a question, but I don\u2019t think he\u2019s addressed the \u201Cdepartment\u201D and the \u201CMinister\u201D, unless that was the piece where he was saying that the newly appointed regional boss of the Department of Conservation (DOC)\u2014there\u2019s another name for it that\u2019s not \u201Cboss of DOC\u201D, but the regional person\u2014is expected to undertake it. If that answer from the Minister was in relation to my questions about the new definitions of \u201Cdepartment\u201D and \u201CMinister\u201D, it would be helpful to clarify that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7985c604cc74cd481dbe716f23e4db5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7985c604cc74cd481dbe716f23e4db5\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Can I just make a couple of quick comments and responses to questions. One of them was around what evidence has the Department of Conservation provided to support the statement. Yes, the earlier advice did say that ring-net fishing risks undermining biodiversity objectives, but the more recent advice is that given the work\u2014the diligent work\u2014that Te Papa Atawhai has undertaken with the fisheries teams across Government and the carefully considered and manicured conditions that now apply so that ring-net fishing will ensure that any environmental and biodiversity impacts beyond those species will be very limited. So I think that there\u2019s been some very positive and constructive work undertaken by officials to ensure that the conditions are appropriately worded to minimise the impact. I think we\u2019ve spoken about that maybe four times now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EIn relation to the assertions\u2014unhelpful\u2014that there was consensus across the House: not in this term. That has been articulated in a variety of ways in my comments today, particularly around representation on the select committee, but also that this House has a different composition to the House of 2020 to 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThere has been a degree of questioning around the Treaty settlements and that there will be no impact. For the avoidance of doubt: no impact. The clauses that have been proposed provide that all settlements, current and future, will be given effect to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just look over my notes, because, again, there have been a couple of repetitive elements\u2014oh, there was actually a question, also, by someone who is currently no longer sitting in the House, seeking to have a long list of all the different people that we have engaged. There have been literally thousands of people that have been engaged over the last couple of decades in relation to this important piece of legislation, and we have again received the responsibility to carry it through to an Act. With that, it\u2019s a great privilege for me to stand and respond accordingly. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00220ae3476499a946d69a70bc51c5e747a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ae3476499a946d69a70bc51c5e747a7\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ce78463571834a759aaaefa88b2c2833\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd45046b2ada433a81414013dcd6d816\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd45046b2ada433a81414013dcd6d816\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 260 amending clause 4(2)(e), replacing \u201Ciwi\u201D with \u201Ckaitiaki\u201D, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225f2facb1de0d4e22870e523757fdfa4a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2d005493f2d4a34aa48f6d33280aa99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2d005493f2d4a34aa48f6d33280aa99\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 260 amending clause 4(2)(e), replacing \u201Ciwi\u201D with \u201Cthose\u201D, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aac720daa6b84226a1080f3b16755c3a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022be97b598425d4785bf28ea3f6370b98e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be97b598425d4785bf28ea3f6370b98e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 260 amending clause 4(2)(e), replacing \u201Ciwi\u201D with \u201Cmana whenua\u201D, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229a6b83c14f654644a4053af386069b6b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00227a4f417b0dfd49e6bcfd60f83aab2857\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a4f417b0dfd49e6bcfd60f83aab2857\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 260 amending clause 4(2)(e), replacing \u201Ciwi\u201D with \u201CM\u0101ori (particularly wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B and iwi)\u201D, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225b362e2b8b85442a9c03e53bd17c43c6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022968f24eff96c4e9a8994a0ce04536b5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022968f24eff96c4e9a8994a0ce04536b5b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 260 amending clause 4(2)(e), replacing \u201Ciwi\u201D with \u201Cgroups of M\u0101ori\u201D, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227c2bc490307d4fb0b6417f762bc7c36b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002204789a6e627b4e4e8a5652cf668cd766\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204789a6e627b4e4e8a5652cf668cd766\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 260 amending clause 4(2)(e), replacing \u201Ciwi\u201D with \u201Cstewards\u201D, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fa64470c94af443aac290355144d35f9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002246239ebb5a5d4b738143f06e8e7c5dea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246239ebb5a5d4b738143f06e8e7c5dea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to Amendment Paper 260 amending clause 4(2)(f), replacing \u201Ciwi\u201D with \u201Ckaitiaki\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002236769c97ad784198b4361cc74e0e37c5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022666f66fe1a124cac963fe313354f6dd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022666f66fe1a124cac963fe313354f6dd2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to Amendment Paper 260 amending clause 4(2)(f), replacing \u201Ciwi\u201D with \u201Cwh\u0101nau, hap\u016B and iwi\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225f23e3b9f5a44d9f83c25e1d415693fe\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5766fdcd4a84411b346462efd14b7bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5766fdcd4a84411b346462efd14b7bd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to Amendment Paper 260 amending clause 4(2)(f), replacing \u201Ciwi\u201D with \u201Cthose\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221a1c9081bcbb49dbbe974927059000aa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022488d9155bd2f4a52a7eccd3c1c256bbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022488d9155bd2f4a52a7eccd3c1c256bbf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to Amendment Paper 260 amending clause 4(2)(f), replacing \u201Ciwi\u201D with \u201Cmana whenua\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220fd16a856dea400fa9f7ed64848c75b9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7fdc56d5b40423f8ef611518cf4a80d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7fdc56d5b40423f8ef611518cf4a80d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to Amendment Paper 260 amending clause 4(2)(f), replacing \u201Ciwi\u201D with \u201CM\u0101ori (particularly wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B and iwi)\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228a2bb62711734fbb8c5c418b55cefc7a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d24c0701661048ec8ea109a2097c9133\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d24c0701661048ec8ea109a2097c9133\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to Amendment Paper 260 amending clause 4(2)(f), replacing \u201Ciwi\u201D with \u201Cstewards\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227a22604a2a3d4257ad07b2db11bb0330\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4460f6a9b4a44959645f1ca3ab191ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4460f6a9b4a44959645f1ca3ab191ac\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 260 inserting the definition of \u201Ciwi\u201D in clause 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002297f57aba507f4da09eff32aaf2fa55e0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c71701a655dc49d3ad56a68dc205e5ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c71701a655dc49d3ad56a68dc205e5ea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 260 deleting the amendment to remove clause 9A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b48f2b2b44db40db8544d7388cbcde86\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5df99e33b7240bf8e39538c0e2447d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5df99e33b7240bf8e39538c0e2447d4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 260 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022afa42d5aa5084197ac557d5a52c62d09\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e04bc59b589b485d844d607c1126db17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e04bc59b589b485d844d607c1126db17\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendments to clause 5 are ruled out of order as being merely an attempt to criticise the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002203f2763d34bc462493035291ecc972d0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a5d3645f8944bb4849b7d9b2b40f28e\u0022\u003EPart 2  Marine reserves, seafloor protection areas, and high protection areas\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002284ebdfafb6d84087a9f6a954d801cced\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284ebdfafb6d84087a9f6a954d801cced\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 10 to 25, \u201CMarine reserves, seafloor protection areas, and high protection areas\u201D and Schedules 2 to 4. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u002257e9791760be4df1ac2644b7ca87bda9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257e9791760be4df1ac2644b7ca87bda9\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have been waiting for the opportunity to take a call on Part 2. This is where we do dig into a little bit more detail about the amendments in the Minister\u2019s paper that he has tabled that make some changes around ring-net fishing, in particular. So I\u2019m looking at Part 2, new clause 19A on page 16 of the Minister\u2019s tabled Amendment Paper 260.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI do just want to note again that we haven\u2019t had the opportunity to have discussions about this particular amendment in select committee. There hasn\u2019t been an opportunity for stakeholders or for members of the public to make submissions to a select committee or for MPs such as myself to be able to ask questions of officials, so we are looking forward to having some comprehensive answers from the Minister. Mine is quite specific: I just want to come back again\u2014I\u2019ve already referenced it today and, forgive me, while I find it; I might have lent it to somebody else, the Cabinet paper. Good times! Yes, I have. I\u2019ve loaned it to a friend and I\u2019ve got it back, so that\u2019s great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a section in the Cabinet paper\u2014so this is a Cabinet paper put together in the Minister\u2019s name, and this obviously pre-dates the Amendment Paper, because the decisions from this Cabinet paper informed the drafting of Amendment Paper 260 by the Parliamentary Counsel Office. I\u2019ll just reference the piece I\u2019m particularly interested in\u2014new clause 19A(4)(b). Essentially, what this part does, in my understanding, is it allows those ring-net fishers who have been fishing within Kawau Bay high protection area and Rangitoto and Motutapu high protection areas\u2014if you go back and look at new clause 19A(2)(a) and(b), they will be able to seek an authorisation from the director-general in order to be able to continue operating ring-net fishing in those two high protection areas. My specific question is: what advice did the Minister receive and why did he agree to include these two high protection areas (HPAs) not just where they were fishing but specifically where they can continue to fish using this method of fishing? Why did he make that decision? What advice did he receive on that decision? And what other options were looked at? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe reason I raise this is that in his own Cabinet paper with his own name on it, this is what he stated on page 9 of the Cabinet paper, looking at ring-net fishing in two HPAs. It says, \u201CBased on the nature and current distribution of ring-net fishing activities in the Gulf, it is likely that ring-net fishing activity that usually occurs within these HPAs could be relocated elsewhere in the Gulf with minimal impact to the fishers.\u201D So the point the Minister has been trying to make in the public domain is that it is important for this practice to continue, to continue providing fish to communities. What his own paper says is that those fishers could be relocated to other parts of the Gulf, not the two HPAs that are listed in the legislation that are required to be considered for the purpose of where those fishers have been fishing and where they could receive an authorisation to continue fishing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo what advice did he receive? Did he receive advice saying, \u201CHere are some alternative areas where they could be allowed to continue fishing that are outside of the areas contained within the legislation.\u201D? What advice did he receive? Why did he proceed with this particular amendment given his own paper? And this isn\u2019t advice he received. This is a paper in his name signed by the Hon Tama Potaka, Minister of Conservation. His language, his words, state quite clearly that the work of those fishers could be relocated elsewhere with minimal impact. So why has he proceeded with this? What advice has he had about alternatives? I want some specific answers, and I will come back to it, because, again, I have not been able to ask these questions of the Minister or of officials at select committee. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcb66268d5a44533b0f24da5c64c9b98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcb66268d5a44533b0f24da5c64c9b98\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Scott Willis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022551e574a35ac42d9b2f100a6ff2c149f\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Steve Abel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cc912cd31d440d0b50f28407c6df9b4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Steve Abel. I\u2019m so sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1058d3759f940638bc4196735ed6775\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1058d3759f940638bc4196735ed6775\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much. He has a little more hair than me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a895395f04449889d974816cb80d03f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: He does indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022016b43b957ce46d4b9c4005e0d1369db\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but not on his face. Thank you, Madam Chair. I really appreciate that. I\u2019m also speaking to Part 2, obviously, and it goes to the question of the purpose of high protection areas in clause 16. For context, I think it\u2019s useful for us to understand why we have high protection areas. It is because if you exclude extractive activities\u2014if you don\u2019t take out fish, if you don\u2019t dump waste, if you don\u2019t dredge, if you don\u2019t mine, if you don\u2019t destroy the benthic environment\u2014then that area recuperates. It recovers, the fish species increase, and you get what\u2019s called the \u201Chalo effect\u201D, which is the areas outside of that marine protected area get the spillover benefits of a recovered ecology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s very good evidence that what this amendment does by allowing ring-net fishing\u2014of multiple studies of how marine-protected areas function\u2014that where you allow extraction or fishing, you seriously diminish the ability of the marine protected area to fulfil its purpose, which is to allow that area to fully recover in an ecologically healthy way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo I want to put it to the Minister\u2014because I do not believe he has answered this\u2014\u201CThe purpose of high protection areas is to protect and enhance indigenous biodiversity within the high protection areas and, if that biodiversity is degraded, restore it.\u201D We know the biodiversity is degraded. It\u2019s unquestioned that it is degraded. Ring-net fishing\u2014people at home might wonder what the heck ring-net fishing is. It\u2019s what your grandpa might have called a gillnet. It\u2019s where you have floats at the top and weights at the bottom, and if you hang it in the water, it will catch anything that comes into it: stingrays, fish, dolphins, you name it. Whatever hits that net gets caught. They used to be called a set net\u2014they are a set net. If they\u2019re used like that, they can be highly destructive. They are indiscriminate killers. If you drop it off the back of a small boat, in a specific manner, you might use it to catch kahawai or mullet, and it\u2019s much less destructive than if you use it as a set net.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo this type of fishing, and I would love the Minister to respond to this, is completely contradictory to the fundamental purpose in clause 16. How does the Minister justify allowing ring-net fishing to be consistent with that purpose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe other thing that seems striking to us\u2014this is the second point, Minister\u2014is the timeline around the decision that was made to make these amendments. I have the entire timeline here and I will spare you going through it. A number of meetings that Minister Jones and Minister Potaka, starting with a bilateral meeting on 17 September at 8:30 p.m.; meetings with Department of Conservation and a bilateral with Goldsmith and Conservation on 19 September; meetings with Jones and the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) on 23 September; a Cabinet meeting\u2014I\u2019m not going to run through all of it, but Jones met the High Seas Fishing Group on 23 September; Potaka met with Department of Conservation on 23 September and met with MPI on 23 September. Then we get to a moment where there\u2019s a Cabinet note that says, on 26 September, \u201Cthe Minister for Oceans and Fisheries has also raised potential amendments raised with him by the seafood industry and you have met and discussed these with him and received further advice. You have indicated that you do not wish to progress any further amendments.\u201D That was a note, in the Cabinet paper, that the Minister did not wish to advance amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe reason I\u2019m asking this is I want to understand and respond to the public\u2019s concern and our concern that the changes in this paper, the amendments, are the direct result of lobbying by the fishing industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0aecbef727a453b93e0589e25f99390\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0aecbef727a453b93e0589e25f99390\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe4cc3db61d742aab143f452dd291580\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe4cc3db61d742aab143f452dd291580\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I think all members, including those opposite, present or absent, understand that the Hauraki marine protection intentions that are well-articulated in this Act are a compromise. In the event that members opposite wanted to enhance to the greatest optimisation the biodiversity, we would have had marine reserves\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a1c6bef675a4cee964f9a1dc1e85734\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Apologies, but look, we are just having difficulty hearing the Minister of Conservation. If perhaps the Minister could be closer to his microphone, or if those operating could turn up the audio\u2014it\u2019s just difficult to hear his answers. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b98870e2ca754dcca2d6504ed593941b\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I\u2019ll just lean in a bit, or maybe I\u2019ll speak louder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe members opposite know that this legislation is a compromise between a number of communities. In the event you wanted to maximise the biodiversity and minimise the species that are being taken out of the ocean, previous administrations would have promoted the whole of the Hauraki Gulf as a marine reserve. However, that was not the choice that was made. There have been ongoing engagements and compromises around a number of issues, well set out in this legislation being proposed today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s been a range of tautology and speculation in relation to the ring-net fishing. For the sixteenth time today, I will respond that, ultimately, there is a balancing and a compromise that is undertaken with the legislation. We all know that, over many years, the previous Government sought to enhance marine protection based off work that was done through Sea Change, under the John Key and Bill English - led National Government, and we got to a position where now we have a compromise solution that this coalition Government is very convinced and persuaded we can turn into legislation. The incomplete nature of our legislation is not giving anyone any satisfaction, and that\u2019s why we have got to the space that we\u2019re in where we\u2019re going to progress the bill and, hopefully, in the next week or two, turn it into legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe biodiversity impacts that have caused so much polarisation by some members of our parliamentary community have actually been very well minimised by the conditions that are now upon the ring-net provision. There was advice earlier on, which has been referred to, that ring-net fishing might not be a great idea in terms of achieving the biodiversity outcomes and other outcomes in the legislation. But you know that this legislation is a compromise between a wide variety of parties, and that\u0027s why we\u0027ve ended up in a space where we are convinced that we can get this legislation through with the relevant numbers in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EHowever, things aren\u0027t perfect in this world, as you know; sometimes, people get called the wrong name in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223650395fd87b452598df3f3b741c3fee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7039ad21bb34e8488a0eb52ccc4267d\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Things aren\u0027t perfect, but what we can do is get to an acceptable solution for some of the issues that we are dealing with. I\u0027m advised, again, that the Department of Conservation advice was to limit ring-net fishing to the two high protection areas (HPAs), which this bill does\u2014this is what this bill does: it does restrict it to two areas. We can speculate and get a pen and draw the areas that we want it to be in, as some members want us to do, but these were the two that were chosen and these are the two that are going to progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EHow does the Minister justify ring-net fishing in HPAs? It is limited. Positive biodiversity outcomes are expected as a result of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002238cdaee18a72408598c9f16b66e0d06c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238cdaee18a72408598c9f16b66e0d06c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019m sorry, but the time has come to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc79988c95394a0aacf4ba775a7f5a9f\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b951876fbf44ebaa5de98adc640ea8e\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00221ab875ee5c874145a3ab7df8a08f1f5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ab875ee5c874145a3ab7df8a08f1f5d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The committee has considered the Resource Management (Consenting and Other System Changes) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also further considered the Local Government (Water Services) Bill and reports it with amendment and divided into the following bills: the Local Government (Water Services) Bill and the Local Government (Water Services) (Repeals and Amendments) Bill. The committee has also considered the Hauraki Gulf / T\u012Bkapa Moana Marine Protection Bill and reports that it has made progress on the bill. I move, That the report be adopted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202508136335a437e3af4e968d40fadd6974221d000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.56 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"