"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002267c42b85572344efbd67c9ec4ac3721b\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 14 OCTOBER 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5bbaaa903dd4fd088cfd04a825d7c09\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 14 OCTOBER 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002256060e8c2ecc46a388575e08d66314f0\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002290f19164ab6a4236a1a04bbe1c3f7d2b\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7496353ad8043589184c6c43899edde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7496353ad8043589184c6c43899edde\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (Deputy Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022066436f2a0c14b5bbec60b384c0f272b\u0022\u003EMember Sworn\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c05c49026bfc4105a4585bc1ac19ccee\u0022\u003EMember Sworn\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u002266ff7f5d30d941be9699159bba2af78d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266ff7f5d30d941be9699159bba2af78d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I understand that Michael John Davidson is present and wishes to make the Affirmation of Allegiance. Would he please come forward to the chair on my right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4d1e162338f465fa1b86c289d292438\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4d1e162338f465fa1b86c289d292438\u0022\u003EMIKE DAVIDSON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Ko ahau, ko Michael John Davidson, e k\u012B ana i runga i te pono, i te tika, i te ng\u0101kau tapatahi me te whaka\u016B an\u014D ka noho pirihonga, ka noho p\u016Bmau ki a K\u012Bngi Ti\u0101re te Tuatoru me t\u014Dna k\u0101hui whakaheke e ai ki te ture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dca7b20260b94cda81a3187e58a1d7c9\u0022\u003E[I, Michael John Davidson, solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles III, His heirs and successors, according to law.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002203a5daca5c3e49b6a414ca179a84bef4\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e5c5875d7e4f4f6da20f01445ba1442f\u0022\u003EMaiden Statements\u2014Allocated Time Frame\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u002264cf3b7d8c1f47bb95994a0ae175c16a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264cf3b7d8c1f47bb95994a0ae175c16a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, last Thursday afternoon, I suspended the House for what I considered to be disruption coming from the galleries of Parliament. This disruption occurred after the maiden speech of Oriini Kaipara. That statement was delivered following question time because Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori had asked the Business Committee if they could move that speaking time to accommodate a slot that would mean that more people who were here to see the swearing in could see the maiden speech, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003EOutside of the Address in Reply debate, maiden speeches are usually at some time between 5.40 and 6 p.m. on a sitting day, meaning that any overtime running into the dinner break would not be taking time from the legislative process of the House. Similarly, if the speech goes over time in the Address in Reply debate, it comes from a party\u2019s allocation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003EThe Business Committee decision to facilitate the speech following question time was on the understanding that it would be a statement and a waiata, all within 15 minutes allowed under Standing Order 368. That did not occur. The speech went on for quite some time, well past the 15 minutes, followed by a waiata and then a haka from the gallery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003EThere is no issue with waiata. There is no issue with haka. But there is an issue with the disrespect for process that was shown last Thursday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003EThe Standing Orders of this House have been developed over 171 years to facilitate the legislative process and to ensure that, in its work, the views of those elected to this Parliament could be heard. Our Standing Orders suppose that all members are honourable members and that they can be taken at their word. They are written and adopted in that light and, accordingly, are not particularly prescriptive about sanctions that the Speaker alone can instigate when agreements of the Business Committee are not observed, or other matters in the House sit outside the Standing Orders. In most cases, this is the prerogative of the Privileges Committee, who consider matters referred to it by the Speaker on complaint of another member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003EThe Speaker can name a member. If a member is named, as provided in Standing Order 91, with a consequential suspension from the House\u2014Standing Order 94\u2014a vote must be taken so the whole Parliament votes for or against the suspension. The Speaker can require members to leave the Chamber for disruptive behaviour or non-compliance with a direction or a ruling. That occurs periodically and can be seen more as a cooling-down period than a particular admonishment. None of these measures was put in place at a time when members writing them would have contemplated the Parliament being used as a stage on which members\u2019 speaking times associated with the legislative process were more of a performance nature and recorded and posted on social media. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003EIt was disorderly for Oriini Kaipara to continue speaking beyond the allocated 15 minutes, and despite several bells politely indicating to the member that time was up, it was, in my view, contemptuous, after asking the Business Committee for the concession allowing the time of the speech to be straight after question time, to then ignore that agreed allocated time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003EThe Business Committee is essential for the fair operating of Parliament. It works by seeking unanimous or near-unanimous agreement and proceeds on that basis. As I\u2019ve said, all members are honourable members and should be taken at their word. To ignore a Business Committee decision challenges that premise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003EThere will be future requests to accommodate various requests from Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. Consideration of those requests will be clouded by the disruption of last Thursday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003EAfter nearly two years in this role, it is now regrettably clear that some elected to this House see disruption and dissent as more important than legislative achievement. I respect that all members of this House are equally elected, but I think they equally have a responsibility to uphold the dignity of the House. That does not preclude vigorous debate, and it does not imply consensus of views, but it does require respect for process and respect for one another.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003ETo start representation in this House with a referral to the Privileges Committee for an incident that occurred just minutes after being sworn in could be seen as particularly pernicious. I have had no referral request, perhaps because wiser heads in this House know that new members rely heavily on the advice and guidance of more experienced colleagues and leaders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003EFailure of the leadership to guide members is beyond the reach of the Standing Orders. Caucus discipline is important. Leaders have an obligation to instil that, and parties receive funding to give effect to the benefit of caucus discipline. It is also to the benefit of individual members who ascribe authority to a caucus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003ELast Thursday\u2019s engagement from the gallery could have been accommodated if Oriini Kaipara had stuck to the Business Committee decision. Choosing to ignore that turns celebration into disruption. More than that, it highlights a fractious and, at times, inequitable Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003EWhile I firmly believe that the atmosphere in Parliament is the business of its members and that the Standing Orders should accommodate good humour and reasonable banter, it is my intention that, from this point, I will more critically apply the limited measures available to a Speaker to ensure greater respect is shown from members, one to the other, and the dignity of the House and the processes of the House are upheld.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003ELater this afternoon, I intend engaging the Business Committee on changes to attendance records, to dress standards, and to leave provisions. Further, from today, question time in the House will revert to Standing Order 397(1), and supplementary questions will be entirely at the discretion of the Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003ERespect and dignity should be at the front of minds for all members of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5dfa8b725234243a720f5fadb874b34\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e66dab0b920f4cc5bccaa42a991718e9\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0c1aa49e9234c5d8d2ef594377ed763\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0c1aa49e9234c5d8d2ef594377ed763\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A petition has been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022f21c747237bd415b853a8b7d18b1aed6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f21c747237bd415b853a8b7d18b1aed6\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Raiha McDonald requesting that the House amend its rules so that comments that are discriminatory against immigrant New Zealanders are no longer considered acceptable in Parliament\u2019s rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u00228f2248f91b8d47c4a337b1eec1f7fd91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f2248f91b8d47c4a337b1eec1f7fd91\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered 11 papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00220d5a272ef15a4b858c8183d6c32524c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d5a272ef15a4b858c8183d6c32524c4\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EThe financial statements of the Government of New Zealand for the year ending 30 June 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ethe 2024-25 annual reports of\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EAir New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ethe Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ethe Ministry of Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ethe Natural Hazards Commission, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EStatistics New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport in relation to selected non-departmental appropriations for the police portfolio in Vote Business, Science and Innovation for the year ending 30 June 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ethe NZQA statement of intent for 2025-26 to 2028-29 and statement of performance expectations for 2025-26, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EGovernment responses to the petition of Focus on Iran and the report of the Environment Committee on the petition of David Famularo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u00224b51b01f9e4f4769bdaac8e490d106b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b51b01f9e4f4769bdaac8e490d106b5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve received the 2024-25 annual reports of the Parliament sector and the Controller and Auditor-General. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Six select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00221a01a6fcab6b46b4806e47293f23b348\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a01a6fcab6b46b4806e47293f23b348\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EReport of the Environment Committee on the report of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, Are we building harder, hotter cities? The vital importance of urban green spaces\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the Regulatory Standards Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereports of the Health Committee on the Gene Technology Bill and the review briefing of the 2023-24 annual review of the Health Quality and Safety Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Petitions Committee on the petition of Ngaire Hoko: Reform KiwiSaver Act 2006 to expand home purchase provisions, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Regulations Review Committee on the complaint about the Incorporated Societies Regulations 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u002282b5dc33e43d4b0f82d89d3af1d8e16e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282b5dc33e43d4b0f82d89d3af1d8e16e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bills are set down for second reading. The report, review briefings, and complaint are set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of two bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022c73539ae67904cd1a23c339f086f913d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c73539ae67904cd1a23c339f086f913d\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ERacing Industry (Closure of Greyhound Racing Industry) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ERedress System for Abuse in Care Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0c2f5976b034e1bb5eb78543128705a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0c2f5976b034e1bb5eb78543128705a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ac5709915544489aa8875d5528428480\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226861f5deaf2d433e8df6f129cc714e9b\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002245979f808d2e4753b56f32cf737fdd09\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022 data-id=\u002297608e082b254fd0954f5b0b77853b66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297608e082b254fd0954f5b0b77853b66\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he have confidence in the actions of all his Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022 data-id=\u002252af724350df4fee92d8b225c75a8fd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252af724350df4fee92d8b225c75a8fd1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e65198fde2bd42478ec5414e24c89ae8\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Prime Minister or Cabinet Office made aware of any potential conflict of interest with the Minister for the Environment attempting to influence a consent process from which a National MP\u2019s company could benefit, and does he consider this an appropriate action for his Minister to take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284b2f911c340454a96d7867c548c0253\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been completely comfortable with the engagement between the Minister for the Environment and the MP involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca6e7e94544143c8b382eeaf0aec4e9b\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think that paragraph 2.68 of the Cabinet Manual has been upheld, where \u201CPublic perception is a very important factor. If a conflict arises in relation to the interests of family, wh\u0101nau, or close associates, Ministers should take appropriate action\u201D; and, if so, what appropriate action did the Minister take to avoid public perception of a conflict of interest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221317fbae952a49249f22b4bce7ed6012\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first leg of the question, I\u2019m completely comfortable that the Minister is compliant with the Cabinet Manual, and particularly 2.68.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b51b4a190c248c6a3b4ca1c2958f938\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it\u2019s fair to the other farmers and water users in this catchment that his Minister is risking the ecological health of the catchment by pressuring councils to grant consents for particular individuals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222a8db49cb3d43b8a72f2fbe07b3e5e1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s entirely appropriate for the Minister to have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271d8acf3a6f0476999f9d03b4ae70e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac9a98e45e884e238586923e858d3acf\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Sir, I invite you to study carefully the content of that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227844fd51366f47978157b362723b8c27\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I was about to intervene on that. The member can word the question in a different way, but do not put an allegation in a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a110251e4f354356a41261f9cc8c0dbd\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it\u2019s fair to the other farmers and water users in this catchment that his Minister may be risking the ecological health of the catchment by pressuring councils to grant consents for particular individuals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cd53bb50a7d418d8580c2679378b91d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you can\u2019t assert that either. You can ask a question that doesn\u2019t have inferences in it or allegations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022487b0723d610496ba668c2c29cc19e4a\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it\u2019s fair to the other farmers and water users in this catchment the way that his Minister has been using her power to privilege\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232d2d33e7e3843039369485f1237d50f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you can\u2019t say that, sorry; that\u2019s the end of the supplementaries on that question, so I\u2019ll go to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a7daff715ed4a3ba9b4167dd653d07d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022802f134618b146d5a3257b9bbed99bfb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, the Rt Hon Winston Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247148450853045498bc274f314320aee\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I want a supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad2872c998504ef98053e748fa7577d4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yeah. OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222180ce006c9545e384e24fc23fff4439\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Of the Prime Minister\u2014going from the questioner\u2019s original draft of the primary question\u2014would he have confidence if any Minister couldn\u2019t spell \u201CMinisters\u201D properly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bee6a93dc3e435491fe6ba86a3ff58c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, point made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ff9cd03b8ae4c7b8c1e2f157ed42b4f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022 data-id=\u0022a183f16d253a41d887d22440c9ec44ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a183f16d253a41d887d22440c9ec44ce\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022 data-id=\u002229df9a1118f64bb4b3f8000f91fd3e5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229df9a1118f64bb4b3f8000f91fd3e5b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248ae0b7b16d445e68c229d469c9fbac3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement, \u201CEconomic growth is going to influence every decision I take this year.\u201D; if so, why did he shrink the economy by almost 1\u00A0percent in the last quarter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aef339be3c8e4d8dac6756a44cb7e5a0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, because we had a very poor inheritance from the previous Government, which was Government spending that went up 84 percent, a lot of it very wasteful. That drove up inflation over 7 percent. That drove up interest rates\u2014there were 12 interest rate rises under the member\u2019s previous Government\u2014and that put the country into recession and raised unemployment. That\u2019s what this Government is working incredibly hard to do. We\u2019ve got spending under control. We\u2019ve got inflation down. We\u2019ve got interest rates down. Growth is coming; jobs are coming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272e144f3e1634f8e8adb1020c6000c6a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Which thing is he most proud of: a shrinking economy, rising unemployment, more kids living in poverty, more homelessness, or record numbers of New Zealanders giving up and leaving the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225757b74754e24c5e9b6b4d929f860f94\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, on the last point, I\u2019d just say to the member: it\u2019s rather ironic that he talks about the number of New Zealanders leaving New Zealand, which is at a high, and it is a function of the economic conditions that he left with his previous Government. He\u2019s also a leader that actually says, \u201CWe\u2019re not going to do oil and gas\u201D, and what do a lot of New Zealanders do when they go to Australia? They go work in the oil and gas sector. He\u2019s the member that says, \u201CWe\u2019re not going to do mining\u201D, but, actually, what do they do when they go to Australia? They go work in mining. He\u2019s the member that says he won\u2019t support fast-track, because that\u2019s about getting construction jobs out to New Zealanders, but he won\u2019t support that either. I\u2019d just say to the member: if you\u2019re serious about it, rather than the crocodile tears why don\u2019t you back it up with some proper action and get in behind backing oil and gas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b349fb62ed8746ee9fd30b5407940cbd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: On the topic of construction, does he agree with Christopher Luxon, \u201CAt the most basic level, the problem is not enough money being spent on new and existing infrastructure.\u201D; if so, why did he slash nearly $3 billion in infrastructure investment in his first year as Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8f0ec781ba14f659e5a6de3189de96a\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. In light of your earlier comments, I just wonder if the preamble to that question was acceptable and within the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae6cfdeada8d411faabe996d2d50472c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I think it was. Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228436dfe151ef46ff9e4c5a489f48c606\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what I\u2019d say to the member is that he has a problem with equity and debt\u2014with understanding that\u2014as we saw with the Chorus statement this week, but he also has a major problem understanding that, in construction, interest rates are the critical piece that enables developers to actually borrow money to go off and get things built. When you actually crash the car and you crash the economy like he did last time he was in charge\u2014and will do again with more spending, more borrowing, more taxes\u2014you\u2019ve got to fix interest rates\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e7dda2ffd1d45d2954047a9d56f7d86\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, I\u2019m going to stop the Prime Minister there. When you\u2019re giving an answer like that, you can speak about the actions of a Government that you inherit, not the individual who you\u2019re speaking to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7f666538a914fdcbe8176c3a76cc9cc\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: So why did he cut $3 billion of public investment in infrastructure in his first year as Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c692545cb3a41409d0a4b561a899992\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m actually very proud that we\u2019ve accelerated $7 billion worth of infrastructure investment that\u2019s actually starting before Christmas. That\u2019s helping. But what we\u2019re doing is actually getting spending under control. We\u2019ve brought inflation down from a record high and pathetic 7.5 percent, from his economic management last time, to 2.7 percent. That\u2019s lowered interest rates. Interest rates are down eight times under this Government; they were up 12 times under his.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4cdb6629db944a88a24610d8a754de6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement, \u201CWe\u2019re determined to get the building and construction sector firing on all cylinders.\u201D; if so, are 20,000 job losses in the construction sector the type of firing he was referring to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220544875a69f743d7a44eb315b88ff0d3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it funny, the great gaslighter forgets about something called interest rates, which he doesn\u2019t take responsibility for creating. How on earth do you increase spending by 84 percent, drive up inflation over 7.5 percent, have 12 interest rate rises, and then ask some questions about how the construction industry works? Get back and understand some economics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eee191991284f59b9f8bb4ea78cbd10\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229d261d9b44f4724bb4178b75bd6bca1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: So why does he think billions of dollars of public money is better spent on tax cuts for landlords and tobacco companies instead of the infrastructure that he has cut spending on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022385ee50cbdf242aaa758425114b35a07\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I\u2019m proud of the fact that, actually, we lowered tax for low- and middle-income working New Zealanders\u2014something the Labour-Greens opposed but that actually puts more money into working New Zealanders. That\u2019s a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228491e2dead5474f84659e2c1069dc51\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is it possible to \u201CSpend money on tax cuts\u201D, or is a tax cut when people just keep more of the money that belongs to them in the first place? How does it work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220daf2d15c0a44d4fb2a2792ff3376075\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it works because you have an economic philosophy that you\u2019re going to spend more, you\u2019re going to borrow more, you\u2019re going to tax more, and it doesn\u2019t matter whether it\u2019s Labour, the Greens, or Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, that\u2019s what that uni-party is going to do. They\u2019re going to continue with the track and the mess that put us in this position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225abd08545f9749a09428f78087f08061\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b27d8609c612411686d517d0f9b09b28\u0022 data-id=\u00228dde483679374051b2eee83efa1964d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d8609c612411686d517d0f9b09b28\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dde483679374051b2eee83efa1964d0\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Acting Minister of Finance: What recent reports has she seen on the Government\u2019s financial position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea27c9aa96334f4e95b1a6a06dc59731\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea27c9aa96334f4e95b1a6a06dc59731\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Acting Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, Treasury released the Government financial statements for 2024-25. These are actual numbers, not forecasts or projections. They\u2019re the first year-end statements to fully reflect decisions made by the current Government, and they show progress in getting the country\u2019s books back in order. As a share of GDP, core Crown expenses fell from 33.1 percent in 2023-24 to 32.5 in 2024-25. Our intention is to bring spending down even more as a proportion of the economy, and that intention is reflected in the Budget forecasts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d8609c612411686d517d0f9b09b28\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e51049eb2c046a0958aea766727edde\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: What do the financial statements say about the operating balance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224761e25e08854f1abd0e8dc000b11c17\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s headline operating balance, known as OBEGALx, remains steady at a deficit of 2.1 percent of GDP. In dollar terms, the deficit came in $900 million better than was forecast at the time of the Budget. That is progress, but there is still a lot of work to do. The operating balance has been in deficit for the last six years. The Government\u2019s intention is to return to surplus, and the Budget forecasts show this happening at the end of the forecast period, in 2028-29.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d8609c612411686d517d0f9b09b28\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205e470472ac64012b661af5efe11c72f\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: What do the financial statements say about Government debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a5c6e328b37406fb3f03136d1e8bd09\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Net core Crown debt remains steady at 41.8 percent of GDP. Over the previous five years, debt as a percentage of GDP rose every year. The Government\u2019s intention over the forecast period is to bend the debt curve down. Instead of going up, we want it going down. More specifically, our intention is to put net core Crown debt as a percentage of GDP on a downward trajectory towards 40 percent, and that is what the Budget forecasts show.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d8609c612411686d517d0f9b09b28\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d0f724fa2b845ad9e77df92cfada163\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: What is the next major release on the Government\u2019s financial position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b3abb8017444670862d7de619a98509\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Treasury will present its latest forecasts in the half-year update on 16\u00A0December. At the same time, I will present the Budget Policy Statement. This is a chance for the Government to respond to the forecast, including any changes to its fiscal strategy. The Budget Policy Statement lays out the goals and objectives that will guide the Government\u2019s decisions in the Budget. I want to say now that members should not expect any surprises. The Government\u2019s objectives have consistently been to deliver better public services, improve long-term productivity, and get the books back in order. That will continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc2512c12498482086c690604b78ce3c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0f045188b3847c8ac32ad05db48ce1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0f045188b3847c8ac32ad05db48ce1e\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Is the record 73,900 New Zealand citizens leaving the country a sign that her economic plan is a success; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u002268215ef2817e457088b768c0a176c4d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268215ef2817e457088b768c0a176c4d8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Acting Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a sign that New Zealand citizens have decided to live somewhere else for a while. This is not a phenomenon that is unknown to New Zealand Governments and, indeed, the New Zealand economy. Some people leave for a relatively short time, others leave for a longer time, and many come back home. Often their decision is based on opportunities available overseas. It is a reality that Australia is a wealthier country than New Zealand and can pay higher wages, including, I might say, in industries such as mining and oil and gas. Members will draw their own conclusions about parties\u2019 attitudes towards those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a55f8026e731457388c0802253d97d56\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Are a record number of New Zealanders leaving because the cost of utilities are up 19.3\u00A0percent from a year earlier, including rates, water charges, and energy bills? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2cc6be24cf2434c892926ef2176624b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let\u2019s just see if we can get the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c4aa4ac100347cca5b52a352cd9bb74\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It is undoubtedly true that the Government and the country have challenges around energy security and energy affordability. I would encourage that member and her party to reflect on the retrograde decision they have made to not support the repeal of the oil and gas ban. In the feedback coming through in her sojourn round the boardrooms of Auckland, she will know that some of the feedback coming from the business community and the energy sector has been to plead with the Opposition to support the Government\u2019s move on energy security. She should start listening to the voices of reason in the business community that want bipartisanship on energy policy, because the best thing we could do for this country\u2019s energy security is firm up the gas supply to make sure we keep the lights on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224680d9509a5942ff8e23f21aec66466f\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: So will energy prices\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b7308093497431da9c8a79cf9ef317b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just hang on\u2014hang on. OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f227aa4474c4b059cd43e05d838f0d1\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Will she commit to bringing down energy prices as a result\u2014and a direct result\u2014of her energy strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022600f9fec13df4bbc973caaad91b4740d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: As the member well knows, no. The Government\u2019s intention\u2014[Interruption] Well, if the Opposition wants to campaign on bringing down energy prices, good luck. The Government\u2019s intention is to put downward pressure on energy prices, which will come from a combination of Resource Management Act (RMA) reform, planning reform, sorting out the dysfunctionality of the energy market through the Electricity Authority, and the hard work being led by the Minister of Energy, and it will come from long-term stability when it comes to gas supply, which is why I repeat, again, that the Opposition should get on board with rational economic policy and realise that New Zealand\u2019s energy security is underpinned by thermal electricity powered by gas. Stability around that will be the single best thing that the Opposition could do to energy policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022783e073cc66e4396b63fce49d6aaf8fb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was an exceptionally long answer. I\u2019m sure they\u2019ll be more concise from this point on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d29126c268884503b7c9c597ae6f144a\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Are a record number of New Zealanders leaving because the service sector has been contracting for every month since she took office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b6600b84e624786990ab2bcc5ea5227\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member just makes a point that, I think, has been well canvassed already, which is that the Government inherited a perilous economic situation. We are putting in place long-term structural reforms to sort out this economy: planning reform, infrastructure funding and financing, cutting red tape, sorting out the energy sector, boosting\u2014as the Prime Minister said\u2014our trade and services exports including by signing record free-trade deals. The member can just look at the numbers from the United Arab Emirates free-trade deal for an example of the outward-facing economy this Government is building.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d2742e1d5da4db8985354d2641589c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc1e8769a58f44cfa8b001f7249838dd\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Are a record number of Kiwis leaving because, as Christopher Luxon has said, \u201CIf you want a job, go where the jobs are.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8d0efd955ae4bbf80415884a4a31218\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s very interesting. A number of New Zealanders started to leave in October 2020\u2014I wonder what was going on then. Here is the graph. Here are the net departures, which started in 2020, and you can see this massive decline in the number of people leaving New Zealand during the months of 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023. Last time I looked, this Government wasn\u2019t in charge then. Actually, the number of people leaving, on net, has flattened out. Do we have more work to do? Of course we do, but the facts are this: under that last Government\u2019s epic mismanagement of the economy, people fled New Zealand. We are turning it around, and she should get on board with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c2289702285f4c8586ad262cd3100ad9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022 data-id=\u0022afec66150c5b48259ba6e2a00aaafa9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afec66150c5b48259ba6e2a00aaafa9d\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent data has she seen on literacy achievement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022030feebe26814e03b6f039f542430876\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022030feebe26814e03b6f039f542430876\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E This year, our education reform got under way. We mandated structured literacy and introduced a phonics check after 20 and 40 weeks at school to test how well our youngest readers were learning to sound out words. The latest report shows an incredible improvement in the number of students who are reaching 20 weeks at school at expected levels of phonics, up from 36 percent in term 1 to 58 percent in term 3. Our students\u2019 reading ability has declined over many decades, but with a focus on teaching the basics brilliantly, an hour a day of reading, and implementing an evidence-based structured literacy approach, we are building the strong foundations required to turn that around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e00e065847f4499aa91c0326776b8f4\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What does the report show for children who need extra support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022044d50ddf36d4f0cb9c348668c72d077\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Very simple: it shows that structured literacy reduces the number of students requiring extra support. In term 1, 52 percent of students required extra support, compared to 33 percent by term 3. This is a significant drop from over a half to a third of children needing support at their 20-week check. Our reforms are data driven and evidence informed, and these early results show what can be achieved when a Government focuses on raising achievement and backs teachers with the resources to implement change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f0a5f964c6540489c055230ee42b92b\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What does the report say about M\u0101ori and low-decile achievement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfd816821362467f8e1bdbd07e4441ef\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Even more excellent news: in every decile for every ethnicity, results have significantly improved. For our tamariki M\u0101ori, I\u2019m especially proud that 25 percent were at expectation in term 1 at their 20-week check, and this has risen to 43 percent in term 3 after two short terms. Sixty-eight percent needed extra support in term 1, falling to 47 percent needing support in term 3. This Government is focused on raising achievement and closing the equity gap, and these results for tamariki M\u0101ori are the first time we\u2019ve seen such improvements to reading data in many, many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c562dc86e974914b8878595e580f138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acee61359978488db374ee0a37ee36a5\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: Why have these results been so positive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d7ace643a674f58bf7bb8f97b8965ab\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: We mandated structured literacy; we introduced a new English curriculum backing structured literacy; we trained over 33,000 teachers in structured literacy; we provided cash to schools for more structured literacy resources; and we provided 349 structured literacy intervention teachers to over 1,240 schools to support students who need help. But, while we set the policy and we resourced it, we didn\u2019t teach a single child to read; our incredible teachers did that. These results are so positive because teachers across New Zealand worked hard to implement reform at pace, and these incredible results are a testament to their hard work, their dedication, and their passion for their students. This data represents thousands of children who are on track for success, and I\u2019m proud to be part of a team that made this happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e15a73d3b3044dfb0cbab4c18525fd2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Minister, are you saying that if one can phonetically pronounce \u201Chonesty\u201D and \u201Cintegrity\u201D, then one would be better able to actually write those words properly and, better still, possibly practise them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224817b55b2dff47258127f6e631f4c9c4\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Phonemic awareness and phonics and structured literacy are about sounding out words. It\u2019s about taking the letters in \u201Chonesty\u201D and \u201Cintegrity\u201D, sounding them out letter by letter, so that our littlest learners can pronounce those words with confidence and ease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d314290b596049bcb76e12ebb9b160a8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb522395332b4632bc5c995c6783e61c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb522395332b4632bc5c995c6783e61c\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E[Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022 data-id=\u00220e93bc5f00dc40ee935acf94af37afc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e93bc5f00dc40ee935acf94af37afc6\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da24beba30b04e24b71b0fafb1e71004\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister give agricultural polluters a free ride instead of requiring them to do their fair share of emissions reductions, given that this means that households and businesses\u2014[Interruption] Mr Speaker, do some people have to shush, or all of us, while we\u2019re asking questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1b907601660423fa797e336b8eb971d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was trying very carefully to listen to your question, but there was far too much talk going on in the House at that time. Please ask the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225fab0af48c543ca959f5e0067693af5\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Did the Prime Minister give agricultural polluters a free ride instead of requiring them to do their fair share of emissions reductions, given that this means that households and businesses will have to shoulder more of the emissions reduction, increasing the cost of living for everyday New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022106fde9de03c4c12a31928d889c4d365\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No. Our farmers are the world\u2019s most productive, best, and most carbon-efficient farmers in the world. We\u2019re proud of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022845fa62a6e504bee94af380222a0e4e8\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister understand that weakening methane targets actually harms farmers\u2019 livelihoods and increases their long-term cost of living as farmers are at the front line of climate-driven extreme weather events that threaten global food production and raise insurance premiums?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbc98460fd014af4bd399bb7880221b4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I tell you, this Government is not going to shut down Kiwi farms and send that production to less carbon-efficient places and less productive places and make global greenhouse gas emissions worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0f5dd0a18cd4f6692513207d852e2c6\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: How can he claim that his targets are based on anything other than corporate interests\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d7b1e3b6fae744f19867175d7757ad7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae901be273a94dd890ea0020aeef6119\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b25affbd087740898c138730130215ca\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014when world-leading\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022707d27e5f8384ab4a47f9a38ac9ae692\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sorry. Stop. You might find that a useful comment for yourself but not for the House. The member will start her question again, and there will be silence while it\u2019s asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cb83565c69e49cd81553a2c36ae5f00\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: How can he claim that his targets are based on anything other than corporate interests when world-leading climate scientists have described his weakening of methane targets as \u201Ca great way of shooting yourself in the foot\u201D and \u201CNew Zealand is setting a dangerous precedent that other governments must not follow\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286eb04a500ec4a7cb6cdc2a76613833a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the characterisation of that question, but I just say to the member: as part of a Labour-Greens Government who wanted to shut down New Zealand farms and send production overseas, why don\u2019t you come on board and actually support that policy too? It\u2019s going to be very interesting to see what the Labour Party says about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eadd6f12a35e46058b927eb45d6cb547\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister governing New Zealand in the interests of corporate lobbyists or in the interests of everyday New Zealanders, and, if the latter, can he explain why corporate agriculture lobby groups had early access to information enabling\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e66ee58e2324beb806673d694abdf16\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, that member\u2019s been around here long enough to understand that you\u2019re allowed to ask one question at a time, not two. She\u2019s been around here far too long not to have learnt that, surely, and she should have been stopped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022addbdad18c4e4847b97e86c74b6864f8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, the rules are that, while the question might have several legs in it, the person answering that question only has to address one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a4b4cc8397149febf95566b85081cdc\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first leg, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022277878b6023f4425a3cf27d2d9d5e570\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Why is his Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations pushing a bill through this House, today, that the Waitangi Tribunal has described as a \u201Cgross breach\u201D of Te Tiriti, which would, \u201Csignificantly endanger the M\u0101ori-Crown relationship\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228944376e67b9411e8a2bf407e182f88d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We disagree with that. We\u2019re actually just putting it back to what Parliament originally intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf9d33fe3ff84baf9ac2f99f0f6740e2\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Is he comfortable with the fact that some are describing his Government\u2019s changes to the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act as \u201Cthe biggest raupatu \u2026 that Te Ao M\u0101ori have faced\u201D due to these changes making it significantly harder for iwi, hap\u016B, and wh\u0101nau to have their customary rights to the takutai moana recognised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cec79b6334e4f65bcb597c274726cae\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I think if a member is going to quote something, she\u2019s got to quote a source. It\u2019s not legitimate, surely, to just say, \u201Csome people have described it as\u201D. I mean, it literally could be anyone. There needs to be some, at least, sourcing for the quote that she\u2019s quoted from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272bd456fe5f040299c387d99e912ac83\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that that\u2019s for primary questions. The supplementary questions are not quite so rigorously enforced, but it certainly doesn\u2019t do the question any credit by just expressing it in such general terms. If there is someone to be quoted, then quote them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d7b1e3b6fae744f19867175d7757ad7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1360f69ae8e4d05b6f6e7f4f9fa1bd1\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8c4f19a81ea40faac1dbae6e6b8eb28\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019re still on over here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224845a6c72cb74da39a6958d1771087f9\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: I will repeat that question in light of the conversation, Mr Speaker. Is he comfortable with the fact that M\u0101ori leaders are describing his Government\u2019s changes to the marine and coastal area Act as \u201Cthe biggest raupatu \u2026 that Te Ao M\u0101ori have faced\u201D due to these changes making it significantly harder for iwi, hap\u016B, and wh\u0101nau to have their customary rights to takutai moana recognised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdf387202de445e6acfee6064fa71c26\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I think we\u2019ve traversed this many times before. The Court of Appeal lowered the threshold. We had a high threshold under the legislation. We\u2019re just returning it to what Parliament intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d7b1e3b6fae744f19867175d7757ad7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb8aacc7b506477b97fbfab632e2cdbc\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister think that farmers are corporate lobbyists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227de7b432e4624de2b0dd34d69dacfc00\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think farmers should be deeply valued and not treated like villains as they were under a Labour-Greens Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225e65b51223cf4eb8aa02a982d92f8959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b96d66a5cd314f818b1d817fa02a1c38\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister understand that M\u0101ori exercise kaitiakitanga and protection for the benefit of all of us here in Aotearoa\u2014for example, when they veto applications for private companies to mine in our precious moana\u2014and that by removing recognition of customary rights in the takutai moana, his Government has taken this away?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297b1bb4489dd4680b4b687a9227702bb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: The member may disagree, but I\u2019m just saying to the member that our position\u2019s very clear. As a Government, we\u2019re just returning what was a lowered threshold under the courts back to what Parliament intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a78ed32e9e8456295131130a600b3be\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022 data-id=\u00229cec07e722084365814c413e80d29bfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cec07e722084365814c413e80d29bfa\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Why has the number of people unable to afford a doctor\u2019s visit increased under this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0cd85c2f20e4340bc5b5870e30afd9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0cd85c2f20e4340bc5b5870e30afd9c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E As the member will be aware, this follows a 30\u00A0percent increase in GP fees between 2017 and 2023. Our Government has delivered the biggest ever funding boost for GPs\u2014$175\u00A0million for this year alone\u2014and capped fee increases at 3\u00A0percent, keeping costs stable and predictable. Today, 90\u00A0percent of adults without a community services card pay $70 or less to see their general practitioner. Access remains the number one barrier for patients. That is why we are focused on affordability and accessibility. We\u2019re extending prescriptions to 12\u00A0months, we\u2019re saving patients up to $105 a year in GP fees, strengthening the primary care workforce, we have launched a 24/7 online GP care service for times when patients can\u2019t see their regular doctor, and we continue targeted support through subsidised GP visits for the community services card holders and the Very Low Cost Access scheme. All of this is about putting patients first and making sure that every Kiwi can see a doctor when they need to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9ca51f3e6934de3958f9ca8a251442d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: What good is capping fees when under-funded practices start charging for double consultations, leading to the pensioner who wrote to me saying, \u201CI pay $91 for a 15-minute visit, and you\u2019re only allowed to talk about one thing. If you want to talk about two things, you need to pay for another $91. I cannot afford to pay this.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222233b5077fa64472a7c9ce7169645858\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, 90\u00A0percent of adults without a community services card are paying $70 or less to see their general practitioner. As I also said, the increase in the number of people saying they\u2019re unable to afford a doctor\u2019s visit increased because, under the previous Government, GP fees increased by 30\u00A0percent between 2017 and 2023. We\u2019re doing things to fix it, focusing on affordability and accessibility, including the extension of prescriptions to 12 months. As of yet, I have not heard what the Labour Party position is. Do they support it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b3ef96ad2e9446cad9409977c75c23a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Was a heart patient correct when they wrote to me, \u201COn several occasions, I have avoided visiting the GP because I cannot afford the fees. Instead, I end up going to the emergency room and waiting for hours to be seen.\u201D, or is this patient\u2019s experience what the Minister meant when he said concern about fees was \u201Cmisinformation put about by the Labour Party\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c2e25a254074437944942b9bc5b7725\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said in my primary answer, the increase in GP fees of 30\u00A0percent occurred under the previous Government. We are focused on affordability and accessibility, including extending prescriptions to 12 months, where safe, which will save patients up to $105 per year in GP fees starting from early next year. I\u2019m yet to hear whether or not the Labour Party supports that policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed5565a20d3e4ccc8751dbbf3b296722\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Was the family of six correct when they wrote, \u201CFirst appointment at our new GP cost $660, $110 each.\u201D, and will he write this off as \u201Cmisinformation\u201D or admit that first-visit fees are a genuine barrier to enrolment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022915f782ced0d4734b77535b0371ab24f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said in my primary answer, 90\u00A0percent of adults without a community services card pay $70 or less to see a general practitioner. Under her watch, general practitioner fees increased by 30\u00A0percent. We are focused on accessibility and affordability, and one of the ways that we can do that is by allowing GPs to extend prescriptions up to 12\u00A0months, which will save people with long-term conditions up to $105 on GP fees each year. Also, it\u2019ll mean that our GPs are able to see more patients. I\u2019m yet to hear whether or not the Labour Party supports that practical policy to reduce costs on patients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de618abe0f154132b4e73a0322994e99\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good. That\u2019s enough time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db2ea575110f43e6b325fc2758d0d15b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228497066436ff40cb809bd48c3d5e4ab0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Was the full-time worker who wrote to me, \u201CI make good money, but with the cost of living, I cannot afford to see my doctor. A hundred dollars is so extreme for a 15-minute consultation.\u201D, or are his circumstances \u201Cmisinformation\u201D too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276109ca9c1c74181a1e2734802d7f46f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dd3a989293041edb1be01ad54dc3f6b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I said in my primary answer, 90\u00A0percent of adults without a community services card pay $70 or less to see their GP, and under her watch, the Labour Party let GP fees increase by 30\u00A0percent over their six years in office. As I say, you can\u2019t trust Labour when it comes to GP fees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c627ab2378bb49ea84bd6ec8da31dae1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, I noticed the questioner quoted from two pieces of correspondence she received, though she never offered to table them. How do we know they exist in the first place? Perhaps she could be asked to table them now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de7a293decdc45a0945248c033f23d20\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is a request that you, obviously, have made by way of point of order. The point is that it goes to the heart of what I said before: all members should be considered honourable members and taken at their word. Now, if there is something to be tabled, then the member is entitled to table it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022145d2529dc8643879a324fb6bf4ca1c3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022 data-id=\u00226676a492c7a941b18a724db7f84e7add\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226676a492c7a941b18a724db7f84e7add\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022 data-id=\u00229c20dc35fa774b4eb5e40eb8d3623ab3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c20dc35fa774b4eb5e40eb8d3623ab3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c9de17059a54c218c1904a8eb870da8\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his decision to exclude Te Tiriti o Waitangi from the Regulatory Standards Bill, given that this bill defines the constitutional test for every future law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecdbadce22954242b42a5c66c036d278\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, not every bill needs a reference to the Treaty in it. As we\u2019ve said, we want a narrow focus to make sure that, actually, any reference to the Treaty\u2014its application is very clear for everybody involved. I can reassure the member that Treaty settlements will not be impacted by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c081f4a80b14d2fb742a332451e1046\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Will he support amendments to include Te Tiriti o Waitangi and tikanga M\u0101ori as foundational principles of a good regulation, to ensure M\u0101ori interests are upheld in lawmaking; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224087d62f5d064554bd36d2664e029b62\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I\u2019ve said before, we don\u2019t want general, open-ended references to the Treaty that don\u2019t give clarity to participants as to how to enact that legislation, so we\u2019ll continue to work through that. I just reassure the member, again: Treaty settlements are not impacted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ea6ef49956446cdb21c134c0897d711\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How does he reconcile opposing the Treaty principles bill while supporting the Regulatory Standards Bill, which, effectively, achieves the same intent by other means?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227301bee7350f4de2be33f21fd58301ce\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As the tribunal accepts, there are no Treaty settlements going to be affected by this bill. Again, I\u2019d just say to the member, it\u2019s interesting that I\u2019ve never had a question from that member about what we are doing to improve literacy with young M\u0101ori students. I\u2019ve never had a question about what we\u2019re doing to make sure that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b387ae25ec0c4674a55203639b12db63\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014that\u2019s all right. That\u2019s all right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb5377918c34af0b3eb2b4ec6c043f4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014M\u0101ori are not victims of crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268442c6aaf414408a57881549e623cbc\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296b668be1d3a4da8b1ca0b34a1b37024\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275c7c1186946476097d2af294d9305a8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment\u2014I think Debbie Ngarewa-Packer had the floor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a646adfaee4e4547bdaaca4dd8c8a1fb\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That has absolutely no relevance to the question at hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272fb93e4da5b48c28df02a667d565636\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I just made that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e1ef2baa19e4b8b9dc9ee8604ae7dba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c977474c07f247498d0b96520990e0fc\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree that the success of policies such as structured literacy and charter schools make the case that it is possible to uplift young M\u0101ori educational outcomes without making any reference to the Treaty whatsoever?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6e20b874c1847b98e8241c06ac6f666\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e01d8bc55f874fd0a2369cffa201e6a0\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Public Health Communication Centre that this bill risks obstructing future tobacco, alcohol, or sugar regulations, worsening existing health inequities for M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c56206307bd4acf9ede27e44960495e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dc4a43834064109ad5cef8944800065\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What assurances, if any, can he give that the Regulatory Standards Bill won\u2019t undermine the Government\u2019s ability to implement Treaty clauses and needs-based, M\u0101ori-specific provisions in health, education, and environmental legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ca3c7b712e64c9680c60cee34fe39cc\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is designed to improve the quality of regulation, which will actually lead to better benefits and outcomes for all New Zealanders, M\u0101ori or non-M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224eeb694c55ab4633a7c9a1c69024072a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fa9f90633cf464f93ce5b20a64f0c89\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he proceeding with the Regulatory Standards Bill without a public mandate, when 99 percent of the 159,000 submitters opposed it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd896dd87395460c8de853bbf60dbf66\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c93b6a278c724256a2bb2b909411df62\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We want to make sure we have better quality regulation and we reduce the compliance burden.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022baf53f71041e453a949a10436abd97a1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022 data-id=\u00224e3c70a2a781437c8112acd1fe598d04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E9.  \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e3c70a2a781437c8112acd1fe598d04\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Housing: How many pregnant women have been refused access to emergency housing since December 2023, broken down by region, if any? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022 data-id=\u00220a29f1db802b4ec0a8fa1b068541dc69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a29f1db802b4ec0a8fa1b068541dc69\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m advised that the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development does not record the pregnancy status of applicants for emergency housing. But, in my humble opinion, respectfully, I think it is potentially reckless and insensitive that the member would consider it appropriate for officialdom to ask women seeking emergency housing support, often in difficult circumstances, if they are hap\u016B or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a80fa6df99e14f369c959cffcb48b445\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc1f311aca2247f381893c52dba690e0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House will just calm itself, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3b5aace9aa24bfb8a136cb6dba6e2e3\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware of the recent case of a pregnant woman in Masterton who was denied emergency housing, as reported in the media; if so, why did he not mention that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238048f04b2764563abe60a35c2966638\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve only recently, as of today, become aware of that. If the member wishes to take some time to put together an authority to act and send it to me, maybe I could look at it further, with his support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb5a5c0ad3bb4fc2b63b894972650350\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you, sir. In the primary question, which was on notice, I asked the Minister how many pregnant women had been refused access. In the supplementary, he conceded to the House that he was aware of one instance that was reported in the media. How can those two answers wash? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f4c75484a154c9b8425dd2228f14c39\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, he also added the word \u201Ctoday\u201D, so I took it that he learnt of it when you raised it in the question. I don\u2019t think that that\u2019s unreasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261eeb11b89664914a08eb09b58cdd5d6\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Will he now concede that front-line providers are correct when they say that the Minister\u2019s claim that everyone in genuine need can access emergency housing is \u201Cnot true\u201D, when there are now reports of pregnant women being denied access to emergency housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225724071a55d84550a26ee732b86ffbc0\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve mentioned several times in this House, in most major towns and cities in New Zealand, there continues to be emergency housing available as a last resort for those in genuine need of a short-term stay in temporary accommodation. There are a number of people who may be declined emergency housing, but many\u2014in fact, over half of them\u2014are actually given some form of support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a70be1f13dd2482c838c9595a78dd27f\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: How can he continue to deny the link between his tightening of the emergency housing entry criteria and the unprecedented increase in homelessness, when even pregnant women are now being denied access? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294a6c5ef972241f58cbaa760d0e3453d\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: I think we\u2019ve heard through question and answer in this session that there is a degree of conjecture that continues to creep in the member\u2019s questions. We, on this side of the House, are genuinely concerned by those who may be rough sleeping, and that\u2019s why Minister Bishop and myself have taken direct action over the last six weeks to announce an additional 300 funded places for Housing First and additional support for transitional housing, and have also given some direction around both redirections and also the exercise of discretion by Te Manat\u016B Whakahiato Ora\u2014the Ministry of Social Development (MSD). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cce7e7a4aa246bfb7d745e04defb980\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the case, like when MSD issued grants for homeless people to buy tents, or when women and children fleeing domestic violence were denied emergency housing, that the Minister knew there was an issue, but only acted when this was made public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd4239cc4ffe4c98942a77d903903d01\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the second example that the member has given, I have asked the member to provide an appropriate authority to act and also to credentialise the allegation that he made. As at this point in time, I\u2019ve yet to receive an authority to act or have credentialised information from that member, but we are genuinely concerned about those people who are sleeping rough in cars, in tents, or on the street, and that\u2019s why we have taken action rather than talk about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283b1ee3948bc45089c8602852167774c\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to make a personal explanation in response to that allegation made by the Minister just now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208614aac0751438ab7e13f7f7fbdf332\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection to that? There appears to be none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af2fa3c061364db1abed2caea1951edd\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister asked me for a contact. I provided that contact, and that contact advises me that the Minister has not been in touch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022191eddb1a92740ccabc58a29eab91624\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there another supplementary? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b85b08e556a34e478ad01d2a9e972370\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb7fbc40b4e840189cb158dffdf6d095\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 10\u2014Suze Redmayne. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f958e023ce44cb68acc41c3a14ca2db\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228b51899bd3a4676914a75b24790cbc5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, there is no response to that, right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d5b13d601794bb282d99453116ad395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022158f16f944fa45f49e545ad7d16adeb2\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: The ministry has been in touch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022788229a75f5f4685bfb0df8be98c019a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No response. Question No. 10\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ecfcfcc70c7443d828c3492b95d991d\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. As a response to that point of order, the Minister had claimed in response to a question that the contact he requested was not provided. He\u2019s subsequently said that it was provided and the ministry followed it up. Now, this cannot be allowed to occur\u2014where the Minister makes a claim against another member that something didn\u2019t happen and when it was pointed out that he did, he responded that, actually, that is the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257ce253f8f4d472a98a58849f5690ae0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll look into that straight away after question time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b27d6090c07e47fb960e52f168ce01b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4316d8a486d4a018e41ac91c17de3a0\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f30e5ce5a1d6407fb0861f3e4e11c2b8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Agriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbb40738f7b446e497a21e6ff250d81b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbb40738f7b446e497a21e6ff250d81b\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: Why has the Government announced new science-based methane targets to support farmers\u2019 contribution to meeting New Zealand\u2019s obligations under the 2050 Paris Agreement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022 data-id=\u002259dc2535d9504047ab28546e6055a351\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259dc2535d9504047ab28546e6055a351\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s important that we provide certainty to our farmers, processors, and exporters that is fair, pragmatic, and backed by science. This is why the Government has set the methane target at a range of 14 to 24 percent below 2017 levels by 2050. We\u2019ve accepted a range of advice to agree on a practical target that protects food production while substantially reducing New Zealand\u2019s farm emissions. We\u2019ve delivered a practical, fair pathway that recognises New Zealand\u2019s agricultural efficiency, protects jobs and production, upholds our climate commitments, and is consistent with our trade agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236a77d937af6419c92dd406d17a9695c\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: How has the Government landed on this range for the new methane targets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022274a767be24145a59d3cbe04cc06bf96\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Across Government, we\u2019ve worked to get the balance right. We have taken a range of advice, including an independent expert science-based review, as reported in December last year. The new targets have New Zealand on track to meet its climate obligations by 2050. I want to be clear, though: there are no winners here, but, for the first time, there are also no losers. This is a practical approach to meet our international obligations, and it ensures we continue to produce the highest-quality, safest food anywhere in the world, we do not have to close down farms and send production overseas, there will be no tax on agricultural methane emissions, and our access to important markets around the world remains available to New Zealand\u2019s farmers, growers, and exporters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222765dc17844e47f0bd580f33340ead9f\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government supporting the primary sector to meet the new methane targets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df60b8dfd81d4d5d9fc1956aed473097\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: New technologies will deliver emissions reductions to meet international and market expectations while enabling the sector to grow. To back the new target, the Government is already investing more than $400 million with industry to speed up the development and roll-out of methane-cutting tools. Three methane-cutting tools are available now, with up to 11 rolling out by 2030\u2014one of which will be available as early as next year. It will be up to each farmer, processor, and company to decide how best to meet these commitments, using the tools and innovations that they see fit for their business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022423ba727766c4ac7902bebd886f9daa4\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has he received on the Government\u2019s announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228d19240ed9ca4f5597e2bb804e0e32fb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263f9647842d54ea4a8ec239b287a9529\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY\u003C/span\u003E: Whilst the targets are extremely challenging, farmers have welcomed them and confirmed that they will meet these challenges head-on. Our primary sector earns nearly $60 billion in export revenue each year for New Zealand. It provides more than one in 10 Kiwi jobs. You can\u2019t solve climate change by shutting down the world\u2019s best farmers and sending that production overseas. The Government is focused on domestic action to reduce emissions, all while growing the economy. This Government backs our farmers, and when our farmers do well, all of New Zealand does well because of their significant contribution to the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220334f4cc4cc648b4b9e3e19518278679\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022 data-id=\u0022010e9a9d6ae64bdda7125782503adde9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022010e9a9d6ae64bdda7125782503adde9\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does she stand by her statement that \u201CThis Government has been backing teachers since the day that we took office\u201D; if so, why are teachers, principals, and support staff all striking together?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022cde0a071ddd24ae093e53d6de38bfd7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cde0a071ddd24ae093e53d6de38bfd7b\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E To the first part of the question, yes\u2014as I have repeatedly told the member in question time. This Government has been backing teachers since the day we took office, backing them with a knowledge-rich curriculum, professional learning and development, and resources so that more Kiwi kids succeed at school. The evidence shows this is working, with the phonics data announced yesterday. In answer to the second part of the question, not all teachers and principals are striking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291da1cf84e9049a2aa27b2451f4999f5\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Why won\u2019t she front up to the strike action on 23 October?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226732be41bc714feea01cb0feac8fed55\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t said that I wouldn\u2019t, and I haven\u2019t pre-released my diary up until that day, so the member can\u2019t presuppose what may or may not happen on that day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb538fe1d7124d6fadf035ae28ba1967\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement \u201CI am not aware of any of those conversations or any of the details that may or may not have been talked about\u201D in relation to the strikes; if so, does she think it\u2019s acceptable for the Minister of Education to not be across the detail?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d868be4e0fe044e6b3561616ad617dcd\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure that there\u2019s any detail for me to be across in terms of this question that was asked. Specifically, the previous Minister is asking a question about something I was asked in a media scrum on Monday. It was specifically in relation to other things we might be doing in terms of legislation. The answer to that question was that I am not involved in any of those conversations if they are being had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221894b7f8a6df4f579e7b6b3974682bf6\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Has she engaged with Sir Brian Roche, who is leading the negotiation, at any point since negotiations have started, in order to get across any details?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc0fcd87e66348478dee8b47491b48e3\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I meet with Sir Brian Roche all the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002229b8d22182614a1b8b6e8ef03bf61503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f170744cc7945cfb341814a85953122\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: How many teachers, principals, and support staff going on strike will it take before the Government finally takes them seriously?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202d8cb5051e344a5ab4c536d1d8d65ea\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that member should know, because she has a very short memory. In 2023, there was a terrible strike action\u2014tens of thousands of primary and area school and secondary principals and teachers participated in the historic walkout, followed by a further three days after that, and then rolling strikes for a whole term. If she wants to know how long it takes, she should ask herself that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b660aabb93a4cddb6d73f05cbca45ed\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And we\u2019ll now move to\u2014[Interruption] that\u2019s enough; thank you\u2014question No. 12. Jenny Marcroft, when the House is silent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f65a093366146ddb84e62988fd5e1ff\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Foreign Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d92a09db28c44070bbfdcc9f0e6f3cca\u0022 data-id=\u00225248eb39d8d946cb84eea8c05ae268b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d92a09db28c44070bbfdcc9f0e6f3cca\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225248eb39d8d946cb84eea8c05ae268b5\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: What reports, if any, has he seen on recent developments in the Middle East?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022 data-id=\u00220ed341f6f2464e5b97be134d67611765\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ed341f6f2464e5b97be134d67611765\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealanders watch with cautious optimism the events of the last 24 hours in Gaza, with the ceasefire holding and the release of hostages and detainees. It has been a moment of immense relief and celebration for the 20 hostages who were released after so long in captivity, their families, and, indeed, the people of Israel. We must also remember all of those hundreds of hostages who died in the two years since Hamas brutally took them captive. Everyone who cares about peace should be welcoming this much-delayed ceasefire, which has come after so much suffering. We note that while Hamas has released 20 hostages, Israel has released around 2,000 Palestinian prisoners. New Zealand commends the leadership of the United States, Donald Trump, Egypt, Qatar, Turkey, Indonesia, and other countries in bringing this deal together, and we view the events of the last 24 hours as providing momentum for peace and constituting a significant first step towards ending this devastating conflict\u2014and not making stupid statements, like the people on my right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d92a09db28c44070bbfdcc9f0e6f3cca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288d2b4e2cdec4945a38c511059325514\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: How do these developments relate to the New Zealand Government\u2019s approach to the Middle East?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dc734327f4e478ebc298fc68251242f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It has been 2\u00BD weeks exactly since we outlined New Zealand\u2019s approach on the Middle East question to the United Nations General Assembly. Subsequent events have reinforced a number of arguments that we made at that time in New York, including the first, that those countries with influence over the situation should step up and exercise leadership, and second, that the international community\u2019s focus should be on achieving a ceasefire, the release of hostages, and the flow of humanitarian assistance in order to alleviate the calamitous situation impacting on Palestinians and Israelis alike. We are gratified that this is precisely what has happened. Yesterday\u2019s historic achievement is a critical first step towards implementing the wider peace plan and securing a lasting peace. Already we have seen a ceasefire, the release of hostages, and the surging into Gaza of humanitarian assistance. We urge both Israel and Hamas to abide by the ceasefire and to continue to engage in good faith to secure agreement on the outstanding issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d92a09db28c44070bbfdcc9f0e6f3cca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221db0e6365f504eb996f095cf4da7dc82\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: How do these developments impact on New Zealand\u2019s approach to recognition of a Palestinian State?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245ed66706c3b413da166be6551987ea9\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: We continue to hold the position that recognition of a Palestinian State is a matter of when, not if. We will recognise a Palestinian State when the conditions are right. A ceasefire and hostage release were, indeed, two initial steps in the right direction to creating those conditions, but further steps remain. What we need now to focus on is the achievement of a durable and sustainable peace, the disarmament and dissolution of Hamas, and the rapid development of Palestinian institutions capable of forming a legitimate and credible Government in both the West Bank and Gaza. Palestinians will not be able to develop these institutions alone, and New Zealand stands ready to play its part alongside other members of the international community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d92a09db28c44070bbfdcc9f0e6f3cca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223faae7546ce24d839de9df27da159630\u0022\u003EJenny Marcroft\u003C/span\u003E: How have recent developments in the Middle East been received here in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219fa2d8aee9145fea2de9cd15337e03f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the silence over the past week from some of the so-called pro-Palestinian protesters around this country has been absolutely deafening. For two years, they have ranted and raved and fumed and fulminated about the situation in Gaza. They have demanded that we do more, give more, say more, and virtue signal more, and then, over the past week, as a peace deal has been struck\u2014as a peace deal has been struck\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e0bcd6ed7da4b4d9887100a87e2160c\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: But you did nothing tangible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d84193b2a73b472e8f78def612a0148d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Adios, amigos. As a ceasefire has taken hold\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fa1ec7a94904218bf4f076ebb53fce5\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re taking credit for others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f46e7c40426a432a8cc03865a02a32fd\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Adios to war and welcome to peace. Then, over the past week, as a peace deal has been struck, as a ceasefire has taken hold, and as hostages have been released, from them not a mutter, not a murmur, not a syllable, not a sound. We have seen not a press release, not a tweet, not a parliamentary question, and the question is: why this deafening silence? Because you\u2019re all about performative politics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220838e5f9bac748d2a59aea595e5226a0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be6a70c3d7f34b02bdcd9d7899d6624c\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: What message does he have for the Israeli and the Jewish communities in New Zealand now that the hostages have been released?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e1eb91ef740868a26db659355f7e9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc1518a5871d445ebc287f7c487c84c8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, that they recognise that it was the US President and others from Muslim countries who brought this about and that anti-Americanism or any other sentiment is of no value when you\u2019re concerned about peace, and particularly if you\u2019re some arrogant twit that arrived here five minutes ago and doesn\u2019t give a concern about this country\u2019s initiative and its peace over the years. My message is this: we can understand why the past 24 hours have provided a moment of great emotion, relief, and indeed celebration. Some 20 of the hostages held cruelly by Hamas for the past two years have finally been reunited with their loved ones, as have over 2,000 prisoners, in terms of Palestine. Anybody who saw the footage of these families being reunited should welcome and applaud that. At the same time as we have said that, we should also not forget all those hostages who lost their lives over the past two years in the custody of Hamas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c01e6110a6d4d66902cb4d86d2d4dfb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That concludes oral questions. Members will leave the House for other business quietly and without conversation on the way. \u201CWithout conversation on the way\u201D means \u201CDon\u2019t talk to anyone; just leave.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d27721506e1c4eb8be19a9d83cb34e62\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a919eb3ee95d4d2aad9a1cac126f6ad9\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022 data-id=\u00221e2277f33f874af88d5646c6b7727a42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b111696b9f040d3b1d5339eead7439f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e2277f33f874af88d5646c6b7727a42\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the sitting of the House today be extended into tomorrow morning for consideration in committee of the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) (Customary Marine Title) Amendment Bill and the Education and Training (Vocational Education and Training System) Amendment Bill; the second reading of the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 2) and the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill; and the consideration in committee of the Building and Construction (Small Stand-alone Dwellings) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c7a67360d99c4be5a14fd69e6dc66c24\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0825359edd345369924ef06008f4365\u0022\u003EBroadcasting (Repeal of Advertising Restrictions) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de10502d77f049318e88d5c7b60befbe\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000260\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 9 October.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u00222a82da4ec57f4b71bbeb007840d1afc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a82da4ec57f4b71bbeb007840d1afc9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019ve determined that the subject of this vote will be treated as a conscience issue. In this case, I know there are members who want a personal vote, and I\u2019m prepared to accept one. This is the process we are going to follow: I\u2019m going to put the question; I\u2019m going to announce the result; at that stage, any member can ask for a personal vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003EThe question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002289db5d6fd0cc4db2a176d13ef02355a9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA personal vote was called for on the question, That the Broadcasting (Repeal of Advertising Restrictions) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 93\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv 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\u003Ctd\u003EBayly\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHalbert (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ENakhle\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETangaere-Manuel (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBelich\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHamilton\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ENimon (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETinetti (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBennett\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHenare (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EO\u2019Connor D (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETwyford (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBidois\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHipkins (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EO\u2019Connor G (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EUffindell\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBishop\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHoggard\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EParmar\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EUpston\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBoyack (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EJackson (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EPenk (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EUtikere (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBrewer\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EKirkpatrick\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EPotaka (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003Evan de Molen\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBrooking (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EKuriger (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EPrime (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003Evan Velden (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBrown (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELeary (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EPugh (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EVerrall (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EBrownlee\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELee (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ERadhakrishnan (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWalters (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EButterick (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELu (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ERedmayne\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWatts (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ECameron (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELuxon (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EReti (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWebb (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ECampbell\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELuxton C (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ERurawhe (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWedd\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ECheung (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELuxton J (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ERussell (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWeenink\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EChhour (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMacLeod\u003C/td\u003E\n              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\u003Ctd\u003EDavidson R (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMcClure\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESimmonds\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EDoocey (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMcKee (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESimpson\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EEdmonds (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMcLellan (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESmith\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n          \u003C/table\u003E\n        \u003C/div\u003E\n      \u003C/div\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 29\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\n        \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022\u003E\n          \u003Ctable\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EAbel\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EGenter (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMen\u00E9ndez March (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWade-Brown (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EArbuckle\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EHernandez (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ENgarewa-Packer\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWaititi (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ECarter (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EJones\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EPatterson\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWillis S (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ECostello\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EKaipara\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EPaul (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EWilson\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EDavidson Ma (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EKapa-Kingi (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EPeters (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EXu-Nan (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EDavidson Mi (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ELyndon\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EPham (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EFerris\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMaipi-Clarke\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ESwarbrick (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n            \u003Ctr\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EFoster\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003EMarcroft\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003ETuiono (P)\u003C/td\u003E\n              \u003Ctd\u003E\u003C/td\u003E\n            \u003C/tr\u003E\n          \u003C/table\u003E\n        \u003C/div\u003E\n      \u003C/div\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000263\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000264\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d52c571cdb246f6abf50a39de1a66f7\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb5095ae793b4aad9a9c5917be9c1f06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d52c571cdb246f6abf50a39de1a66f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb5095ae793b4aad9a9c5917be9c1f06\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c3b0dc231c04c2d8e137b607ded0240\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d52c571cdb246f6abf50a39de1a66f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd13d42f183a44eeaa00dd7b374101e6\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to seek clarification. It is very clear in the Standing Orders that a vote is not allowed to be interrupted. We have experienced that in this House this year, with four people being sent to the Privileges Committee. The vote was interrupted on this in the first instance, and I want your clarification on why that was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022 data-id=\u002283c656f30db346559eadb6e03291159a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a2d138cbb839455d9754acbe91a75102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283c656f30db346559eadb6e03291159a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good. I will give it to you tomorrow. I don\u2019t have it with me at the moment to give to you anything that is lengthy and instructive on the way in which we have progressed today. All I know is that I asked the clerks\u2014who, of course, work on the basis of the history of the whole House\u2014 \u201CHow do we progress, given the circumstances of last Thursday in here?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c33500b5d32454791459a70a9728f1e\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002294f1630199c140b1b8add31af1fbd305\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022 data-id=\u0022d993fb8166e34c38a6b6d99c396d7032\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d993fb8166e34c38a6b6d99c396d7032\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) (Customary Marine Title) Amendment Bill and the Education and Training (Vocational Education and Training System) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a3d4a5bc4c6e4ab492199eb76b74c15f\u0022\u003EMarine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) (Customary Marine Title) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c471beec4da942a4980a08cfe01e6a9a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022361a0344f81b49a796d41f5de4344048\u0022\u003EPreamble\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022 data-id=\u002270b454b41a9d493eb731a908b9d966e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270b454b41a9d493eb731a908b9d966e2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We first come to the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) (Customary Marine Title) Amendment Bill. We begin with the debate on the preamble. The question is that the preamble stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u002207e445dc7ef24aa3b90bf40adb12f2a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207e445dc7ef24aa3b90bf40adb12f2a6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I just would be interested in the Minister\u2019s comments\u2014now, there are actually two questions here, and it might be useful for the Chair to clarify, because we have a preamble to the amendment bill and then we have an amended preamble for the main bill. Could the Chair clarify which of those preambles we\u2019re discussing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e665a6ba2c3409d847f21e248a1eff3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I will as soon as I know. It\u2019s just the bill\u2014it\u2019s the preamble to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e02b3240bde412c92dafe4990d024d9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: To this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee7e1d61a73d44e98d8d39b3176e152f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022090a6d764bfb45ccba51b71961247daf\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, OK. That\u2019s excellent to know. In that case, I would be interested in the Minister\u2019s comments on this, and, in particular, I would have thought it quite important that the preamble\u2014which is, essentially, a recitation of the factual background that gave rise to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EFirstly, it\u2019s quite unusual for bills that are not themselves Treaty settlement bills to have preambles, and I\u2019d be interested to know why he\u2019s doing that. Also, in terms of the factual accuracy, I have read, or attempted to read, some of the decisions that relate to this bill, and I would have thought that an accurate reflection of the Supreme Court case in here would actually recognise that all of the concerns that the Court of Appeal case gave rise to had in fact been addressed. I think it\u2019s recital (5), where it notes, \u201C\u2026 the Supreme Court decided the remaining issues under the appeals before it, and applied its interpretation to those provisions:\u201D. It really is inadequate because it then just says, \u201CAmendments \u2026 are still needed\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EThe fact of the matter is that this bill was halfway through the House\u2014it was a pre-emptive strike, if you like. If the Government had, in fact, not brought this bill, I don\u2019t think it would still feel committed, because what we now have is a Government that\u2019s stuck its oar in, if you like\u2014or its paddle, I suppose\u2014and is still committed to it, whereas, in fact, the concerns in the Court of Appeal were entirely ameliorated by the Supreme Court case. Now, what we have is a further tightening, which is entirely not necessary. To say, as I think it does, that the decision departed from the original intention of Parliament was probably untrue at the start, but it\u2019s certainly untrue now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EThose are my two questions: firstly, why do we have a preamble in this bill, because it\u2019s not a Treaty settlement bill; and, secondly, why does the preamble not accurately reflect the decision of the Supreme Court?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7c65bdc979c412b9cb3d81ea533e968\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7c65bdc979c412b9cb3d81ea533e968\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. That clarification is well-received. Given that this is\u2014as my colleague described\u2014the first time I\u2019ve seen a preamble used in a way such as it has been in this particular bill, my questions follow on from the Hon Dr Duncan Webb with respect to the difference that the Minister recognises in the court decision and what he is, effectively, trying to change here. It\u2019s easy to say that it wasn\u2019t the intention, but words matter in this, and the preamble is the start of what we would consider, in the M\u0101ori world, the wairua to the rest of the bill. What that means is it sets the tone for what we will, no doubt, prosecute as the bill continues in the committee of the whole House stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EWe would really appreciate words from the Minister that can offer some clarity on those particular matters. The preamble, for its part here, like I say, sets the tone for the rest of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003ENow, I appreciate that in the Amendment Paper, which is the one that I\u2019m looking at, here in Part 1, at clause 6, tries to explain, if you will, why it\u2019s doing this and why it\u2019s making these changes. I\u2019m wondering\u2014and this is my first question to the Minister\u2014if he can provide words on the preamble and, secondly, if he can actually be quite clear about whether or not this preamble will make changes that will continue to impact the rest of the bill that he has on the Table in the Chamber. Then the next one is about whether he can give an example of where, in previous cases, a marine and coastal area or a customary title has been recognised and what makes this particular one different to others that have been recognised in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EThat will be really helpful as we continue to go through this particular bill. I want to come back just to that point about how the preamble sets the tone for the rest of the bill, which is why we would really appreciate words from the Minister that set and clarify the matters that we have in the preamble here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u0022027b092af1ff487ea076ca71d1a4e1fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022027b092af1ff487ea076ca71d1a4e1fa\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, members. The bill has a preamble to explain the background. It\u2019s not that common that Parliament brings in legislation to overturn Court of Appeal rulings, as was the case in the original bill, and also Supreme Court rulings, as is the case with this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll be bringing in Amendment Paper 380, which has an amended preamble, and it\u2019s required because the Supreme Court and the High Court have issued relevant judgments since the original bill was introduced, and so they\u2019ve been added into Part 1, clause 4 and the preamble and different parts of the legislation, and also to give effect to Cabinet\u2019s decision that the bill won\u2019t apply to Ng\u0101 Rohe Moana o Ng\u0101 Hap\u016B o Ng\u0101ti Porou. The Amendment Paper addresses an issue that emerged in the course of drafting around the second limb, which I will come to later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EIn essence, just to remind people tuning into this debate, why are we doing this? Well, our starting proposition is that all New Zealanders, of course, have an interest in what happens in the coastal and marine space, around the maritime space and the coastal regions of this country. All New Zealanders have an interest in that, obviously. At the same time, the legislation that was introduced in 2011 did enable M\u0101ori claimants to seek recognition of customary marine title. When this was done, this was an arrangement between the National Party of the time and the M\u0101ori Party, and it was an agreement in response to changing the previous Labour Government\u2019s Foreshore and Seabed Act, which claimed title for the Crown, with the exception of areas where there were landholdings abutting that piece of the land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EIt was all part of an arrangement, and the 2011 Act set a very high threshold, and I quote Christopher Finlayson in regard to that \u201Cvery high threshold.\u201D Why was it a high threshold? Because customary marine title includes valuable rights and specifically, effectively, veto rights over resource consents for a range of activities\u2014not all activities. Important infrastructure is excluded, but there are a bunch of activities that could go on in the marine space where holders of customary marine title would have the ability to grant or not grant resource consents. It also included mineral rights and a number of other things. These are valuable rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003ENow, obviously, enabling one group of New Zealanders who had received customary marine title to grant resource consents is a very significant deviation from normal expectations of New Zealanders living in this country\u2014in a democratic, modern democracy\u2014to have an equal say in decisions affecting their lives and their environment and what goes on around them. That is why Parliament set a high threshold, and that high threshold was as outlined in section 58 of the Act, which had two legs, which were, according to tikanga, an understanding of that and then \u201Cexclusively used and occupied [the area] \u2026 to the present day without substantial interruption;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EWhat happened was, of course, that many, many years after the bill was passed, it eventually made its way to court, and the Court of Appeal came up with a judgment that very much diluted the impact of the second leg, and that\u2019s why this bill was introduced. The Supreme Court agreed with the Government that the Court of Appeal had got that wrong and indicated their own expression of what section 58 meant. It is still the view of the Government that it deviates from Parliament\u2019s intention, because we\u2019ve seen a couple of decisions that have been made since the Supreme Court decision and the Supreme Court test which have seen very large proportions of coastlines in the Wairarapa and K\u0101piti that have been given customary marine title. That is why this legislation is being carried on and why there is an amendment to recognise that we\u2019re not dealing with a Court of Appeal decision but a Supreme Court decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u0022550183b27642497fbc986b560a400cb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022550183b27642497fbc986b560a400cb5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. There was just one point there that the Minister raised\u2014I think, seeing as we\u2019re talking about the kind of genealogy of this bill. The Minister talked about resource consents, and he suggested that\u2014and I may be putting words in his mouth\u2014the ability of hap\u016B and iwi to intervene and to say that resource consent shouldn\u2019t be granted because it interfered with their customary rights was not something which New Zealanders would expect in an equal society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EThe Minister could clarify in terms of where this bill comes from. Of course, the Foreshore and Seabed Act didn\u2019t go down well. It wasn\u2019t Labour\u2019s finest hour. This bill sought to address that. In doing so, it recognised that customary rights of M\u0101ori are rights in respect of coastal and marine areas that have existed since at least 1840. That is to say that they are property rights. I just want the Minister to clarify how he says that a resource consent for an activity which would interfere with those coastal rights is not something that is appropriate in a society that deals with all property rights and property owners equally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EIf a hap\u016B and iwi have a customary right to exercise control in respect of a particular activity over a coastal area, these are rights which are familiar to jurisdictions around the world. We have fishing rights to rivers for trout in the UK that have been recognised since medieval times, and you can\u2019t dam the river with the resource consent or their equivalent there. Why is it that the Minister sees the property rights of hap\u016B and iwi in respect of coastal and marine areas in some way as less than other property rights that people who are applying for a resource consent ought to have, such that they should actually be extinguished by this legislation and, in his own words, \u201CThe threshold for establishing those rights\u201D\u2014not establishing them, because they already exist, but recognising them\u2014\u201Cshould be extremely high.\u201D? Could he just explain to me how it is that customary marine title rights are some kind of second-tier property rights compared with the rights of other New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfdcc14b0e724e0b8f60af7b772e959a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfdcc14b0e724e0b8f60af7b772e959a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I explained\u2014and it has been very well traversed in this House\u2014that the bill was seeking to balance two things: on the one hand, the ability to assert customary marine rights and for those to be acknowledged through the legislation, with the accompanying abilities to, effectively, grant or not grant resource consents in that particular area; and the natural expectations of all New Zealanders living in a modern democracy to have an equal say in what goes on in their community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EIt was a balancing act that was established in the bill, and the way that the Parliament of the time sought to achieve that balance was to enable the appeal and granting\u2014or \u201Crecognition\u201D is the right word\u2014of customary marine rights, but setting a high threshold for that to be established. That was the goal, and that\u2019s how it was always explained. You had to achieve two legs\u2014the first being to recognise it through tikanga and the second requiring applicants to have held a specified area and \u201Cexclusively used and occupied the area from 1840 to the present day without substantial interruption\u201D. The common-sense reading of that, for most New Zealanders when they look at that\u2014\u201Cexclusively used and occupied the area from 1840 to the present day without substantial interruption\u201D\u2014was the threshold that Parliament set.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003ENow, the member is quite within his rights to say that \u201CThat\u2019s not the right threshold.\u201D, \u201CIt should be a different threshold.\u201D, and \u201CThere should be no threshold.\u201D. That\u2019s fine. That\u2019s not what the Parliament passed in 2011, and so there have been different interpretations of what that threshold should be, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re seeking to establish clearly with this amendment bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022 data-id=\u00228b886d54f6864c9db95c20ea502cfcb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b886d54f6864c9db95c20ea502cfcb1\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Speaking to that very last point, as a starting point\u2014but I would like to work back to other points the Minister has made recently\u2014in the preamble, the entire premise of this legislation is to restore the intention of Parliament. That intention, the Minister contends, has been abrogated from in the interpretation of the Appeal Court finding. Now, to the question of what Parliament intended in the original legislation, in 2011, what is the actual basis of independent analysis which shows that Parliament\u2019s intent in 2011 is not fulfilled by the determinations of the Supreme Court in its 2 December 2024 finding and its more recent finding this year? The Parliament of the day\u2014of 2011, I\u2019m talking about now\u2014was very clear about what it was trying to achieve. The very thing that the Minister just described is achieving the customary rights of iwi M\u0101ori in concert with other rights, like fishing and recreational activities, public use, the rights of other users of the space, that could exist in concert with customary marine title (CMT). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003ETo the specific point of his assertion that the intention of Parliament has been departed from, the Minister of the day, Christopher Finlayson, who the Minister also mentioned in his opening remarks, said, \u201CThese amendments\u201D\u2014meaning the amendments that the Minister has before us\u2014\u201Cdo not restore the original intention of Parliament. They undermine them. Let there be no doubt about that at all.\u201D I invite the Minister to actually express the basis for his primary proposition, which is that Parliament\u2019s intention has not been met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EAlso, as to the extent to which we are dealing with a concert of rights, there\u2019s a specific comment in the supplementary analysis: \u201CIt\u2019s always been clear, and has never been contested, that the purpose of the 2011 Act and the findings of both the Appeal Court and the subsequent findings of the Supreme Court never questioned that public access, fishing, and other recreational activities in a customary marine title area are not effective, except for a limited exception for the protection of w\u0101hi tapu areas within a CMT. Significant third-party rights, including in relation to existing infrastructure, are also maintained, and the resource permission right has a number of other carve-outs\u2014for example, for emergency activities and scientific research. New public interest infrastructure is able to be deemed exempt from the resource management permission right, following a process set out in Schedule 2 of the Takutai Moana Act, which includes engagement with the CMT holder and culminates in a final decision being made by the Minister for Land Information\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EThe suggestion of the Minister that there is any question as to the purpose of the bill\u2014being to ensure it achieves customary marine title for iwi but also maintains public access\u2014is not evidenced anywhere. I would also like to point out the advice that the Minister received in this regard\u2014again, in the supplementary analysis paper\u2014was that Te Arawhiti\u2019s\u2014what was then called Te Arawhiti\u2014initial preference was in retaining the status quo and waiting for the Supreme Court judgment. That\u2019s in page 14 of the supplementary report. Te Arawhiti\u2019s view was that consideration of the appeals by the Supreme Court could have resolved the issue, and they advised the Minister against these amendments being made until such a time as the Supreme Court finding came in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EOn page 15 of that analysis, point 44, it says, \u201CIf the Supreme Court ruled in favour of the Crown, it could mean the additional time and resource on progressing amendments would not be required.\u201D, and the Supreme Court did rule in favour of the Crown. Given that fact\u2014further to my core question\u2014how is it that where the Court has clarified, in a magisterial decision of some substance and intelligence in December 2024, very eloquently the intention of Parliament and found in many interpretations a middle-ground between the finding of the Appeal Court and the desire of the appellant, in a magisterial decision that clarifies the intention of Parliament 2011, the Minister still comes back to this House with these intense amendments to supposedly restore that intention? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EI will make a final analogy before seeking a response from the Minister. It is as if the Supreme Court banged the nail into the wall upon which we can hang the picture of M\u0101ori customary rights as a principle\u2014a core principle\u2014that upholds Te Tiriti o Waitangi. They clarified what the intention was from 2011, and, through this amendment, the Minister is coming along with a sledgehammer and smashing that nail into the wall, destroying the actual intention of 2011, which was clarified by the Supreme Court finding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u00226ebb604ed7c345e0a0802a4a1733681f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ebb604ed7c345e0a0802a4a1733681f\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to pick up on some of what the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations has been saying about the intention of Parliament. That goes to the heart of a number of amendments that are in my name, and I hope to seek the support of Parliament when we come to this voting, because it is unusual that the intention of a previous Parliament would be clarified in this way in law. It raises a number of unusual public law questions around how future parliaments might reinterpret the intent of previous parliaments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EWhy that\u2019s important is that it is one thing, and it\u2019s perfectly fine and perfectly normal, for Governments of the day to have a policy intention, and it is also normal for Governments of the day to have a policy intention that is not in line with court proceedings that have happened or that are even afoot, but it is another thing for Governments of the day to look back and to say that a previous Parliament had a particular intention that has not been interpreted correctly in the law. Not only has a Minister of the Crown advanced that case in the media and in the public realm, but they are also asking this House to pass it in law\u2014that there would be a preamble to this Act, which is an unusual use of a preamble. That preamble would say that, essentially, this House has a disagreement with the interpretation of the law by our court system and that not only are we going to change the way that they would reinterpret future cases but also that there would be a retrospective element of rehearing cases that have already passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EI think it is for the Minister to establish clearly his case about why, in 2011, what was passed was his version of how this law should be interpreted and not in fact what the Minister at the time, or the official documentation of the day, said it was. I\u2019ll read to him this quote, which I hope to elicit a response from him on. It\u2019s from September 2010, when the Minister in charge of that legislation explained his policy intent, not his intent of how this would be interpreted in the courts\u2014and that\u2019s relevant too. He said of claimants, \u201CThey will have to prove: that the area for which they are seeking title is held in accordance with tikanga,\u201D\u2014yes, we agree that\u2014\u201Cand that the group seeking title has had exclusive use in occupation of the area, and that the exclusive use in occupation has been held from 1840 until the present without substantial interruption.\u201D\u2014there is no debate about that. But then he clarifies: \u201CThese tests are based on overseas common law from similar countries (Canada) but reflect New Zealand experience better than overseas case law by incorporating tikanga. Customary marine title is not an exclusionary right and includes the public rights of access, fishing, navigation and existing uses.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s important there is if we are to pass as a Parliament a pronouncement about how this law was meant to be taken into account, then that Canadian case law is relevant. The Canadian case law that the Minister was talking about there were cases like Calder v Attorney-General of British Columbia, which was decided in 1973 and which sets out a framework that is used all around the world in common law jurisdictions to determine both the extinguishment of title by radical title of the Crown and customary rights and interests that exist in land after that has occurred, and also Guerin v the Queen in 1984. It\u2019s that case law\u2014that was Canadian case law\u2014which was ultimately being considered at the time in 2010 and then was intended to be used in New Zealand case law to further develop that. There had been a case that might have been on the Minister\u2019s mind and that was moving through the Canadian courts at the time. It was called the Haida Nation v British Columbia (Minister of Forests) case. It was about the procedural rights and interests of indigenous peoples and was used as a framework to establish the procedural rights that occur here, particularly around how claimants might be funded, how claimants might have access to the courts, and how claimants might expect their evidence and their information to be treated as they went through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EThose are important cases because they inform what the Government of the day was thinking. It would be useful if the Minister could point to any case law around the world that he thinks was what the Minister at the time was using to inform the law that Parliament passed, that there was support for at the time, and that then our courts have interpreted and have made part of our body of case law. If those weren\u2019t the cases that were intended to be used, then what were they? What other country uses the kind of approach that he is advancing here, and why were our courts expected to know that? It\u2019s fine for him to have a new policy direction, but why would we pass in legislation that the courts have made the wrong call when, in 2011, that certainly seems to have been the intent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022361f4c0817914a4392260493dc847fe3\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022 data-id=\u0022e682d85a63714dfcafbfa8bfc167a140\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e682d85a63714dfcafbfa8bfc167a140\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Honourable Dr\u2014the Hon Ginny Andersen, sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1685dd6ccb148c7986692ffb7de521b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1685dd6ccb148c7986692ffb7de521b\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a70889c77908445eaf31972abb45147b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I was expecting someone else to stand up who didn\u2019t, and I just got a bit brain faulty for a minute, sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383ddd6a959b44d1b1dc933e0138b1f7\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Promotion. I\u2019ll be a doctor. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I am going to go to the preamble, but, before I do that, I would just like to highlight that back in 2010, on 6 September, there was a press release from the then Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, the Hon Christopher Finlayson, and I think it\u2019s important to understand the Minister\u2019s view of the policy intent under a National Government at that point of time. He states, in his press release, \u201COne of the key objectives of the legislation is to give M\u0101ori the opportunity to argue their case for customary marine title before the courts or in negotiation with the Government. For that reason, it is inappropriate to second-guess what a court or negotiations process might decide.\u201D He also highlights, in that same press release, that \u201CThese tests are based\u201D\u2014as noted by other speakers\u2014\u201Con overseas common law from similar countries ([such as] Canada) but reflect New Zealand\u2019s experience better than overseas case law by incorporating tikanga. Customary marine title is not an exclusionary right and includes the \u2026 right [also] of [other accesses],\u201D, and I think that\u2019s been one of the misunderstandings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister, in relation to the preamble that is currently put out in the bill that we have on the Clerk\u2019s Table before us, is: given the lack of consultation in this whole process, has he considered including in the preamble some of the findings from the Waitangi Tribunal inquiry? I think if we\u2019re accurate about reflecting on the historical record and reflecting on what has occurred, in the preamble that is currently laid out in the bill, I would like the Minister to consider whether he would like to include the Tribunal\u2019s finding that the Crown has breached the principle of tino rangatiratanga by exercising k\u0101wanatanga over M\u0101ori rights and interests in takutai moana without providing any evidence for one of its key justifications, namely that the public\u2019s rights and interests require further protection beyond what is already provided in the Act and that the Crown also failed to inform itself of M\u0101ori interests. I think that what is particularly important, and I\u2019m sure this will be traversed again, is the lack of consultation with those people who are directly impacted by this legislative change. However, what smarts even more and rubs salt in the wound is the fact that there was consultation with commercial fishing interests, which have already got statutory protections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003EPrior to finalising the proposed amendments, while failing to consult with M\u0101ori, the Tribunal notes that that is a further breach of the principle of good government. Now, as the Minister responsible, I think it\u2019s only right and fair for those people impacted and also for future New Zealanders to understand what has actually gone on right here. It\u2019s well and good that we have National Ministers turning up to celebrate 50 years of the Waitangi Tribunal, but, surely, if their research and their findings are valued enough, they should be reflected in the preamble of this bill. I think it\u2019s also important to note that they found that the Crown breached its principles of active protection, as well as good government, by proposing those amendments. As a result, applicants will be forced to have their cases reheard, burdening them further, financially and emotionally, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003EI would be interested to know if the Minister, who is a student of history himself and has a role in recording the history, will entertain the fact that we could record those findings from the Waitangi Tribunal in this preamble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00225ee9ac2553f84bdb8e64deb4a0506be1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ee9ac2553f84bdb8e64deb4a0506be1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E Of course, we can debate this all day. Bringing up different quotes from the Hon Chris Finlayson, we\u2019ll all be able to find one that suits our argument. I heard the member\u2019s quote from Mr Finlayson, and I could give a quote from Q\u002BA on 20 June 2010, when he said, \u201CIn the round, based on the sort of information I have, based on my talking around the place, I\u2019d say about 10 percent of the coastline would be under customary marine title (CMT). I wouldn\u2019t want to be specific about which bay is in and which bay is out. We\u2019ll have to issue these things.\u201D Further on, he says, \u201CWe\u2019re looking at the upper East Coast, eastern Bay of Plenty, way up north, that sort of place.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EThen, I could refer to Mr Finlayson in this House at question time answering a question from David Parker on 16 June 2010, where Parker said, \u201CHow much more of the foreshore and seabed does the Attorney-General expect will be subject to customary titles as a consequence of the change to the threshold test that currently applies to territorial customary rights\u2014that change being to no longer require continuous ownership of contiguous land,\u201D\u2014which is what the old test was, under Labour\u2014\u201Cwhile still requiring continuous exclusive control of the foreshore and seabed concerned?\u201D The answer from Mr Finlayson was, \u201Cthat is a very good question, and [it is] an important question. I believe, in answer to the member, that we are not talking about very much, at all.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EWe can all find appropriate quotes, but if we look at the speeches from both Ministers at the time when this was introduced, they were talking about emphasising that the Act was intended to recognise CMT in specific parts of the coastline. What we\u2019ve seen in recent cases, based on the Supreme Court test, is entire coastlines being granted CMT. That is why we believe this legislation is required: to restore the parliamentary intent, which was a high threshold, and specific parts of the coastline, not the entire coastline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022 data-id=\u00229e54408c830e4c1e85e582e4ac2ecf1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e54408c830e4c1e85e582e4ac2ecf1a\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve been wanting to really unpack the perspectives of Minister Finlayson, because, last week, he was at the Waitangi Tribunal conference speaking to these very issues, along with Geoffrey Palmer, on the importance of the Waitangi Tribunal providing safeguards for us as te iwi M\u0101ori and the way in which legislation impacts upon Te Tiriti and tangata whenua. It would be good to know what is the current status of the whakaaro of Minister Finlayson instead of quoting k\u014Drero from the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EConsidering the deep impact where the decisions of this legislation will ripple out to te iwi M\u0101ori, I\u2019m keen to understand from the Minister, in developing this amendment, did the Minister speak to Whakat\u014Dhea? Did the Minister speak to the tribes of Wairarapa? Did the Minister speak to the tribes of Aotea Harbour? Who specifically did the Minister speak to when it came to proposing that these amendments were about bringing back balance and the original intent, because as tangata whenua\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022217eca05afc3450d942d74570855b48c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just bring the member back to the preamble. It\u2019s not that these questions are not relevant, but we just need to focus on the preamble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ac4c4b456e849c585bd7013f056b5ff\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: Whakat\u014Dhea is in the preamble, and it shows the intention. These are directly named.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274bc995ec94a4807aed029b5bb4a2d52\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: It was just getting a bit broad, so I was just trying to bring it back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6cd013ff90840a3b70474493fd88524\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: These are directly named claimant groups within the preamble who are going to be specifically impacted. When we go back to the original intent of the legislation, it\u2019s really clear that the takutai moana Act was to acknowledge Te Tiriti o Waitangi, that it was to provide a space for tangata whenua to exercise their customary interest in the common marine and coastal areas, that the mana tuku iho [inherited authority] of tangata whenua in the marine and coastal areas of hap\u016B, iwi, and wh\u0101nau as tangata whenua could be recognised, but that the takutai moana Act was to \u201Cestablish a durable scheme to ensure the protection of legitimate interests of all New Zealanders in the marine and coastal area\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EIn considering that original intent, why can\u2019t tangata whenua retain their property rights? Why is it that the balance always falls on the side of everyone else, but tangata whenua fails to get recognition in terms of the \u014Dritetanga [equality] guaranteed through Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EArticle 3 provides for us the equality to be recognised in Crown law, so how come tangata whenua cannot hold customary rights, and which directly impacted, named tangata whenua in the preamble did the Minister speak to in considering these amendments? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc3c646676ae4c95a7fb479b9ab52487\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc3c646676ae4c95a7fb479b9ab52487\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It is complex indeed. My question to the Minister is around Part 1, clause 4(10) and the amendments to those\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf81c9c59e1e4525aa2c542468d7bb91\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re still on the preamble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b503ac5c63624414b6795c7bc6dc6b48\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, which includes the preamble, or have I got that wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227194e24b5a8448f6889ca1f62f1a57c0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019re not into Part 1, we\u2019re still\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285c87707bce34316b0554cb586726309\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m in the Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e46ce47e64784f33966a0043d508fe57\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry, yeah, there\u2019s the Amendment Paper. Thank you for clarifying. Yes, carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e75f931388244d7bffc959e11f78751\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: So, if I may, in Part 1, down into clause 4, which is the \u201CPreamble amended\u201D, subclause (10)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022330a4859fabb4a48bb9ce410b406211c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Found it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb19b15ad7b749dab817af8620b85186\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, and it goes on and says, \u201CAmendments to those provisions are still needed, however, to ensure that they have the effect, and maintain the balance, that Parliament intends:\u201D. Then it goes, in subclause (11), \u201CIn particular, amendments to those provisions are still needed to (a) define more strictly the requirements for exclusive use and occupation:\u201D. The word \u201Coccupation\u201D is going to come up many, many times during this debate. It\u2019s the level by which the Minister, in my view, has lifted the requirements for customary title to be proven in the court, so the word \u201Coccupation\u201D will come up regularly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EUnder 11(b), it does say, \u201Crequire inferences by a decision maker (including the Court) to be based on evidence of physical use and occupation:\u201D. My question to the Minister is: does that include all courts? Could that extend itself to other judiciary arms such as the Waitangi Tribunal, who are well-acknowledged in the House as storekeepers of a heck of a lot of evidence with respect to these matters that we\u2019re debating here in the Chamber?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EWith respect to its application to other pieces of legislation, my question to the Minister on this part is: in recognising customary take of seafood and the issuing of permits as such, does that come under the customary title and occupation piece that the Minister is proposing here? Those particular rights have been given for some time now, and I just want to check\u2014with respect to the way that the Minister has worded Part 1, clause 4(10) and (11)\u2014whether or not that would impact on those decisions with respect to customary seafood take, with respect to the way the Minister views physical use and occupation, which is in the particular clause that I\u2019m referring to there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EThe other part is clause 11(c)(i), which says, \u201Cholds the specified area in accordance with tikanga;\u201D, and I\u2019m interested in the ongoing debate with respect to the courts and their view on tikanga, and whether or not it is the intention of this Minister to continue to go through and reference those particular cases that have been brought forward to the courts and, of course, the rulings that the courts have made with respect to tikanga and its place in law, and whether or not we\u2019ll be here to change this\u2014not just on this bill but on many other bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8ff430a13ce4aaba81833e36dc639f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8ff430a13ce4aaba81833e36dc639f0\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. To an earlier point the Minister made about the problem of customary marine title interfering with other users\u2019 rights\u2014and acknowledging the well-made point of my colleague H\u016Bhana Lyndon that it seems that, frequently, it is the rights of non-M\u0101ori that are preferenced time and again over the rights of iwi M\u0101ori: for a Minister that purports to believe in property rights, I wonder that he can\u2019t recognise the first property rights of this country, customary marine title, with a greater confidence and certainty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EBut who is interfering with whose rights? Whose specific rights is mischief being caused to by the current, most recent interpretation of the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act, i.e., that of the Supreme Court? Who is the Minister talking about when you refer to \u201Cinterfering with rights\u201D? It\u2019s a very specific question, and a specific answer to whose specific rights are being interfered with would be appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u00228907030b5ea54b6ca572c41a02a07754\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228907030b5ea54b6ca572c41a02a07754\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. My question to the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations is in relation to new recital (2) of the preamble, inserted by Amendment Paper 380, which reads, \u201CThe Court of Appeal\u2019s interpretation of those provisions changed the effect that Parliament intends them to have, and materially reduced those requirements (for example, that an applicant group must prove exclusive use and occupation of a specified area from the start to the end of the applicable period without substantial interruption):\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister is including, in the preamble, statements that when you are, basically, presuming to view the intent of a previous Parliament, I would like to know whether there were any other factors that may have influenced the Minister\u2019s decision to legislate over the top of the findings of our courts. In particular, I would like to know whether with the cost pressures of claimant funding proceeding through the court process, which, in the year prior to this legislation being brought to the House and enacted, there was a substantial blowout\u2014according to the scrutiny week that I sat on, as part of that\u2014in terms of the court costs that the Crown was required to pay for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003EI would like to know from the Minister: are there other factors, such as he didn\u2019t want to have to pay for the funding for legal representation through the courts for claimants, because that was causing the Crown\u2019s books some concern, and he had quite a bit of pressure to bring things into line and there was no other foreseeable way to stop those costs? I put it to him as to whether one of the factors that this legislation introduced was to simply reduce the ongoing costs to his budget in relation to enabling representation within the courts for these claims to be heard out in a due process\u2014I\u2019d be interested to know: if that is not the case, then are there any other factors that have caused this legislation to come in the way that it did?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00226af4f49ddd6e44cd9c1b93d7f94f8767\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226af4f49ddd6e44cd9c1b93d7f94f8767\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just reply to a few questions. One member asked which applicants we\u2019ve met with in the development of this amendment and legislation. I have met with a number, including Ng\u0101ti Raukawa ki te Tonga, Te Wh\u0101nau-a-Apanui, Ng\u0101ti Kauwhata, and Ngati Porou. In terms of whose rights we are talking about who would be potentially interfered with by the resource consent right, we\u2019re talking about somebody who wanted to start new aquaculture, for example, somebody wanting to put in a jetty on their property, or somebody wanting to renew a consent for a jetty that they\u2019ve had for generations. They might be some examples.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022 data-id=\u00224a101f9ca9c347eb9a587bfd0396366d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a101f9ca9c347eb9a587bfd0396366d\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Tiamana. T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Minita, i t\u014D kawe i \u0113nei mahi \u0101u ki mua ki te aroaro o te motu, me te iwi M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister, for bringing these works of yours before the nation and the M\u0101ori people.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested in a couple of things in the preamble. One of the core tenets of the 2004 ruling and how it proceeded was the Government of the day was asked to demonstrate any Government of New Zealand passing a law that actively extinguished the M\u0101ori right to the takutai moana that was vested to M\u0101ori in Te Tiriti o Waitangi. They came up extremely short on that. There hadn\u2019t been an Act of Parliament passed between 1854 and 2004 that actively extinguished the M\u0101ori right to the takutai moana, so it stands that it was still there in 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re talking about the M\u0101ori customary right, and then, as the Minister\u2019s talking about balance, we\u2019re talking about the public\u2019s right. I do have a question for the Minister about the extinguishment of that M\u0101ori right to the takutai moana that was vested to them in Te Tiriti o Waitangi. The question is: has he found one since then, given the new take on the takutai moana Act? Has there been a revelation that there actually was an Act of Parliament passed into legislation between 1854 and 2004 that actively extinguished that M\u0101ori right in Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EThe balancing act\u2014I\u2019m interested in the balancing act\u2014comes down to the constitutional framing of the argument. The two sets of rights being argued are the M\u0101ori customary right\u2014yep, I\u2019ve just defined that, how it came about, and whether it was extinguished or not; I\u2019ve defined that well\u2014and then the public\u2019s right. The question is: are those two sets of constitutional rights, as set out in Te Tiriti o Waitangi, equally and adequately recognised on the basis of the bicultural constitutional framework of Te Tiriti o Waitangi? That\u2019s p\u0101tai number two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EWith regard to \u201Cheld a coastal area exclusively\u201D and \u201Cused and occupied it since 1840\u201D \u2014i.e., the threshold\u2014I\u2019ve got a few things here. So coastal land owners, n\u0113? Coastal land owners\u2014we all know them. Heaps of farms around the country run all the way down to the coast. There are heaps of them in the Ng\u0101ti Kere rohe. My understanding, in the P\u0101keh\u0101 sense of the law, is that they don\u2019t own the Queen\u2019s Chain\u2014nope. I\u2019ve also established that no Government had passed any legislation between 1854 and 2004 that had actively extinguished the M\u0101ori right to that same area, so the M\u0101ori right was live. The coastal farm owner doesn\u2019t own the Queen\u2019s Chain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EIf the rights vested in M\u0101ori by Te Tiriti o Waitangi are still there and the landowner doesn\u2019t own the land right down to the water and if it is indeed just the Queen\u2019s Chain we\u2019re talking about, then there are a few things to be considered. Number one is that the Queen\u2019s Chain is there. Number two, the M\u0101ori right is there. Those two things went largely without contest, under the radar, right up until 2004. The Queen\u2019s Government had not passed any legislation between 1854 and 2004 actively extinguishing that M\u0101ori right, so the M\u0101ori right was still there and the coastal land owners have not impeded the original Tiriti-based M\u0101ori right, so where and how is the constitutional right of M\u0101ori being recognised by the current actions of the Crown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddd3a211017248be9c43ae44730b9803\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddd3a211017248be9c43ae44730b9803\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I wanted to speak again to the preamble in the Amendment Paper, whereby we have recitals (6) and (7), and recital (7)(b) in particular. I want to understand from the Minister, the Hon Paul Goldsmith: these amendments are being provided to ensure that they have the effect and maintain the balance that Parliament intends, and then in recital (7)(b) it requires inferences by a decision maker, which could be the court also, to be based on physical use and occupation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EThinking about the implications for decision makers, including the courts, to be based on evidence of physical use and occupation now and into the future, who is going to be financing the implementation of this? Who is going to be resourcing\u2014whether it be the court who is going to resource the claimants. Who\u2019s going to resource the machinery of Government also, in the way in which claimants are going to have to provide evidence of physical use and occupation? Who is also going to provide the resource to then rebut the tangata whenua evidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EI\u2019m concerned in terms of the resources. We\u2019ve already been told there are cuts everywhere\u2014cut, cut, cut\u2014and yet we see this Government bringing legislation in, just in the preamble itself, changing the nature by which we have to prove our connection and provide evidence of physical use and occupation, which is inconsistent with the test based on tikanga. It would be great to hear from the Minister how we\u2019re going to fund the system. How are we going to fund the claimants? How is the court, how is Te Arawhiti, or Te Tari Whakatau, going to fund this new machinery coming through in amendment legislation, when we were already told, as claimants, starved already of a dollar, to prove our connection to a place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EIf we\u2019re revisiting, can the retrospective nature of the decisions now impacting some seven cases, including Whakat\u014Dhea, which is mentioned in the preamble\u2014who is going to pay for it? That\u2019s going back to the taxpayer, and that\u2019s already a burden that has been heavy enough. How much is it going to cost? Have the officials done the work in terms of implementing this amendment legislation, knowing that the decision maker now has to show and prove the physical use and occupation, the evidence must be put on the table?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u002204fe2069e6b54234ba00694b848ea0ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204fe2069e6b54234ba00694b848ea0ce\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Recital (7)(b) in the preamble in the Minister\u2019s proposed amendment is an important one, and I hope we can seek some clarity from the Minister over this new part that he proposes to insert around physical use. This is an unusual way to write the law, and it\u2019s unclear. What the Minister is asking for is for this Parliament to say that it intends that \u201C(7) In particular, amendments to those provisions are still needed to\u2014 \u2026 (b) require inferences by a decision maker \u2026 to be based on evidence of physical use\u201D. This isn\u2019t law that says that, for a decision to be compliant with the law, it will take into account physical use. This is a way of framing it that says that \u201CMy intention is for you, the court, when you make a decision, to consider evidence and take that evidence into account, and that evidence must be also inclusive of, or touch upon, physical use.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EThe problem there is that there is no indication of what weight this gives; it\u2019s not set out, as these clauses would usually be drafted, for decision makers who then need to prove that their decisions have been made reasonably and in compliance with the law. This is about intentions, inferences, and the type of evidence presented to a decision maker. This makes gobbledygook of an already confusing and complex law, which currently has the benefit of moving through the New Zealand court system with the benefit of Canadian case law prior to 2011, which will now go out the door. It leaves the courts in the position\u2014or any decision maker, in fact, when they\u2019re considering customary marine title\u2014where, at some point, they need to hear evidence about physical use, but there\u2019s no indication of whether that should be the only evidence, whether that should be the most heavily weighted evidence, or whether it must be one of a hundred things that they heard evidence on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EThis goes to the problem here, which is that, essentially, this is populist law being drafted in a way that is incredibly unusual and that is meant for judges to interpret. This is about telling a voter base that there must be evidence of physical use. You can imagine the speeches come election time. They will say, \u201COh, this isn\u2019t about the taniwha out in your bay. This is about whether there was use of taunga waka\u201D\u2014of tying up the waka\u2014\u201Cand isn\u2019t that fair, and isn\u2019t that reasonable?\u201D The problem with that is that that\u2019s not what they have drafted in the law. They have just said, \u201CIt is my intention in Parliament to direct judges to hear evidence on that taunga waka, on that tying up of the waka.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EHow do we interpret this? In Te Whakat\u014Dhea\u2019s case, that harbour is the food basket of the people of Te Whakat\u014Dhea, who were moved from their lands. Without access to those cockles and regular use three times a day, my father, who was given to his grandparents, who were the kaitiaki of Te Kooti\u2019s place, where he was injured on the shores of the \u014Chiwa harbour\u2014they would not have been able to feed him. At that time, he was a six-month-old infant, and he could eat only the cockles from the bay, because he did not have his mother being able to breastfeed him. That would be physical use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EHow is that physical use meant to apply to the regular use of the bay? It applies because these people were kaitiaki of the bay, because they looked after that customary fish take and, without it, their infant, given to his grandparents, would not have lived. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EThat is the established evidence. That is the relevant thing for this test. Having to prove physical use for somewhere like Ruapuke Island, where customary marine title has been granted to the wh\u0101nau of Ruapuke but where the sea between it and Rakiura or Invercargill might be used infrequently, is difficult and nonsensical, especially when you haven\u2019t set out how that is intended to work for a court. How do you take into account physical use? What is physical use in this scenario? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EIt makes sense only if you either set it out in the legislation and say what you mean\u2014which is, \u201CI mean, as a Minister, that this will be hard for you, and hap\u016B will not be able to establish this evidence.\u201D\u2014or say that it is for judges to take into account this part of the evidence but that that evidence will not be a conclusionary part of their reasonable decision-making. This is unfair. It is gobbledygook. It is getting around a problem the Government has with a populist commitment that doesn\u2019t make sense in law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f45da01a166646ffb8cfca2e1f975ece\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f45da01a166646ffb8cfca2e1f975ece\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I would like to go to the proposed recital (7) in the preamble. My colleague has just covered (7)(a) and (b). I\u2019d like to take a look at paragraph (c). Under that, it reads: \u201C(7) In particular, amendments to those provisions are still needed to\u2014 \u2026 (c) clarify that, in the case of an application for, or to vary or cancel, a recognition order, the applicant group must prove that the group both\u2014(i) holds the specified area in accordance with tikanga; and (ii) had exclusive use and occupation of the specified area from the start to the end of the applicable period without substantial interruption:\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: does colonisation come into interruption? Does he consider that the change of the law and the removal of people from their land constitutes interruption as per recital\u00A0(7)(c)(ii) of the preamble? Further to that point, in terms of the process in which he arrived at the words that have ended up in this preamble, I would like to understand a little bit more about the process and the advice that he did get. When looking through the regulatory impact statement, which we now have the ability to do, we read things such as in paragraph 145, which is under the title \u201CWhat option is likely to best address the problem, meet the policy objectives, and deliver the highest net benefits?\u201D and which reads: \u201CGiven the Minister\u2019s direction that the status quo is not a feasible option, Te Arawhiti advised that out of the remaining options, Option A applied prospectively would be a direct and effective way to address the problem and achieve the policy objective. It posed the least legal, Tiriti, and relationship risk by confining the amendment to a targeted alteration of key errors in the Court of Appeal\u2019s interpretation of section 58 of the Act and thereby delivers the highest net benefit.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: were the words that are in this preamble now and that have some really serious concerns, including the word \u201Cphysical\u201D and how you are determining occupation, predetermined because the Minister simply directed officials to choose which option best suited the Government\u2019s desire for an outcome and best suited the minimisation of costs to the Crown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00223efa1bbfccb8470ebba69a75778b81fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223efa1bbfccb8470ebba69a75778b81fc\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I just wanted to respond to the member T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019s\u2014I thought\u2014quite interesting speech, where we\u2019re really just sort of grappling with conflicting, or balancing, two separate rights. One is the customary marine rights, and the other is the expectations of all New Zealanders to have a say in what goes on in their neighbourhoods and in their coastal areas. That\u2019s why the legislation was passed with the support of the National Party and the M\u0101ori Party at the time and was set to strike a balance there with what was described at the time as a high threshold. Now we\u2019re all debating about where that threshold should be, and three different courts have had three different interpretations of that threshold. That\u2019s why this Parliament is considering this Amendment Paper, which sets for Parliament to assert what it believes the threshold should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abf3a160c8ed4dbbba47b8a5ea06384c\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u00224db7fcbc48a44affadd02adfd61d0d7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224db7fcbc48a44affadd02adfd61d0d7c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you looking for a closure motion? The member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd35e2350d0742c0be5f54367b50a170\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Dan Bidois.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b5d3982fd2d454d9d7930301c800646\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Dan Bidois.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcb0a0a90e624b80921e329da18bbe06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcb0a0a90e624b80921e329da18bbe06\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u00224ce8323cb2934f32bc791c71de4ebc53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ce8323cb2934f32bc791c71de4ebc53\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to the preamble set out on Amendment Paper 380 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220cf6c3032e364f859311b466891d6fc0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u002247ad7c69597c42678c0d1dbdd793d781\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247ad7c69597c42678c0d1dbdd793d781\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to replace the preamble is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e50346a32ccd4680beb900a0c61fc7ab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the preamble as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPreamble as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b0ac2df380f84f48a1d17488f25ba3a0\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act 2011: general, and the Schedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u002222da4e3188174d33a4505e619a255b25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222da4e3188174d33a4505e619a255b25\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 11\u2014\u201CAmendments to Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act 2011: general\u201D\u2014and the Schedule. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u00220331459d42654cb4b14f2e2568662fac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220331459d42654cb4b14f2e2568662fac\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. Having just talked about the preamble to this bill, we can now talk about the preamble to the main legislation. I see clause 4 amends the preamble. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003ELook, it\u2019s a relatively simple point, but I\u2019m a bit perplexed as to why there\u2019s a sense that we\u2019ve got to have this massive, long preamble in respect of all of the Court of Appeal\u2019s decisions on it. Whilst an historian might be interested in the fact that there was a Court of Appeal decision, it\u2019s actually really verbose to have, in the preamble to the main Act, a recitation of the Court of Appeal\u2019s decisions which were, in fact, overruled by the Supreme Court. In fact, I\u2019m not sure that the preamble needs amendment at all. In fact, I\u2019m pretty sure there\u2019s an excellent tabled amendment on the Table, in respect of clause 4. If we\u2019re going to give a genuine historical account of why we\u2019ve got here, we should probably recognise that it\u2019s really part of the Government\u2019s approach to M\u0101ori and M\u0101ori interests, which is, basically, to roll back the progress that we\u2019ve made over the past, I don\u2019t know, 150 years or so. In terms of the references to the Court of Appeal case, it\u2019s entirely unnecessary because they\u2019re gone, they\u2019ve been overruled, and the Supreme Court case itself is the one which prevails.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EIt may well be that to recite the Supreme Court case and to say we had concerns, but the Supreme Court said that those concerns around what \u201Ccontinuous use and occupation without substantial interruption\u201D means, in fact, were vindicated and that there\u2019s actually not that much to worry about any more, but we\u2019re going to continue with this piece of legislation, which makes it harder again to establish a coastal and customary marine title\u2014is probably what it should actually say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EIn terms of the new preamble, I\u2019m just perplexed. I see that there is a preamble in the original bill; why you\u2019d want to confuse it is just a little bit beyond me. If the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations could talk about the preamble and why he wants to change it, and, in particular, why he wants to put into the preamble\u2014it just seems very poor drafting\u2014a narrative about a court decision that doesn\u2019t stand any more, I\u2019d be interested to hear that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00229e95d6cc371843b8aa7d69b114658cf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e95d6cc371843b8aa7d69b114658cf5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I would remind the committee, of course, when the first reading of this bill occurred, the legislation was designed to overturn the Court of Appeal decision, in particular, the impact of the Court of Appeal decision, which, in effect, took \u201Cexclusive\u201D out of the second test, because the second test is that \u201Cexclusive use and occupation of the [coastal] area \u2026 without substantial interruption\u201D and the effect of the Court of Appeal decision was, effectively, not to read out that word \u201Cexclusive\u201D. When we were doing this, the opponents said that this was terrible and appalling; then, lo and behold, the Supreme Court agreed that it was a misreading. What we\u2019re doing here is dealing with issues that relate to the Supreme Court decision. In particular\u2014I just want to run through them\u2014one is on the Supreme Court interpretation, which required extensive use of a space and an intention in some capacity to control the area since 1840 as far as the law permits. The bill is not too different, but subtly different to that, requiring the intention and ability to control the area to the exclusion of others since 1840. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EThen, on the question of extent to which decision makers can rely on inferences, the Supreme Court interpretation permitted inferences around continuity of use and occupation as part of determining substantiality of any interruptions but reinforced the need for evidence to establish practical expressions of the applicant\u2019s mana or control over the seascape. That pointed in the direction of tikanga, but, of course, tikanga is covered in the first leg, and if it was to be a big part of the second leg, then that\u2019s not what we understood the intention to be, so the legislation focuses on influences on the extent and continuity and exclusivity of use, and occupation must be based on the evidence of physical use and not only spiritual or cultural association. That\u2019s a second point of difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EThe third point of difference is around the burden of proof. The Supreme Court test was that applicants only need to demonstrate use in occupations since 1840 and that they currently hold the area in accordance with tikanga. Exclusivity and absence of substantial interruption can be inferred unless contested by a third party\u2014that is, a third party, somehow, has to prove that it wasn\u2019t held exclusively. The approach of the bill is to say that applicants must prove all the elements of the section 58 test now. That\u2019s why we\u2019re carrying on with this legislation, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re setting out to do. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022eee45dd0b5d14a7db5730d34d0ec543d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eee45dd0b5d14a7db5730d34d0ec543d\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. To the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations\u2019 last point, one of the key questions around this is: on whom is the burden of proof that exclusivity is maintained or is not maintained or has been broken? Is it the Minister\u2019s opinion that the original intent of the legislation was to place the burden of proof not on iwi M\u0101ori but on those who wished to disprove that iwi M\u0101ori had exclusive use and, therefore, a right of customary title?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EI note, in the Supreme Court\u2019s finding from December, a reference to the Ng\u0101ti Apa case\u2014which was the beginning of this whole question in terms of how it engaged with the Government\u2014that \u201CAfter analysing the cases on customary rights recognition in New Zealand law during the colonial period, Elias \u2026 in Ng\u0101ti Apa rejected the reasoning of Ninety Mile Beach as wrong, even in 1963. She concluded that the transfer of sovereignty gave the Crown radical title to the land but did not affect prior customary rights.\u201D\u2014which I believe is one of the points T\u0101kuta Ferris was making earlier. \u201CInstead, the common law preserved those rights until they were lawfully extinguished. Keith and Anderson JJ emphasised that the Crown bore the onus of proving extinguishment:\u201D. Is it the Minister\u2019s view that that is correct\u2014that the Crown bears the onus of proving extinguishment, rather than iwi bear the onus of proving customary use?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u00223555f74928ed40f7a80270b88d1eec0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223555f74928ed40f7a80270b88d1eec0f\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll take the Minister to page 3 of the amendment bill. I\u2019m asking him about his clause 5 that amends section 9 of the Act. I want to ask him whether there should be a definition of \u201Cphysical use\u201D in this section, because that is a concept which he has been talking about as an important part of this bill, and yet I have some questions around how that meaning should be interpreted. There is already a definition of \u201Cexclusive use and occupation\u201D, because that was the relevant part of the history of British law that this was hinged on. Now, if we are hinging it on physical use, that\u2019s a concept of British law which comes from Norman feudal law and is centuries old, so the Minister needs to tell us what he means. Hundreds of years of British law have developed this idea of who owns land, and land ownership can hinge on ideas like adverse possession, which I think he was alluding to earlier, where you might have an exclusive use to the exclusion of others. That might be the important part of the law, but physical use goes back even further than that. That\u2019s a system where you\u2019re looking at how feudal lords might occupy a particular piece of land. That\u2019s how peasants or serfs might use and physically use part of the land, which might give them a bundle of rights that exist alongside the ownership recognised through different mechanisms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EThe Minister needs to help us to explain here what on earth we mean by \u201Cphysical use\u201D, because we don\u2019t mean that in our land law now. We don\u2019t expect Mr Andy Foster to get out every day and patrol the border of his house and dig out something from his lawn every six months to prove that he is physically using his lawn, do we? We don\u2019t expect Te Whakat\u014Dhea to patrol their borders and get out and swim in the moana and erect the jetty to show physical use. We don\u2019t expect those things. Their rights arise in different ways. They\u2019re actually hinged on concepts in British law. They are nothing to do with tikanga M\u0101ori, although this path for establishing rights was intended to do so. On top of that, many iwi have asked the Government through the last 150 years to recognise their customary marine titles that are not given effect to by this law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EFor instance, the rights of Ng\u0101i Tahu and Rakiura M\u0101ori in the T\u012Bt\u012B Islands was recognised through a pathway of negotiation with the ground to recognise those special rights and have nothing to do with these concepts around physical use or adverse position. That is an arrangement between the Crown which hinged on the use of that land, the physical use for the gathering of kai, for mahinga kai, and those are different sorts of rights that have been enshrined in that law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EI genuinely do not know which concept in British law we are looking for when the Minister is asking us to interpret the meaning of \u201Cphysical use\u201D. This idea\u2014how far does it extend to? If I am physically using my lawn, do I have any physical use rights in the property that is 200 metres from my boundary? No. So physical use is a very limited sort of right, and that goes to the way that it was established in our law hundreds of years ago. It would be for people who were either farming or using that land for the gathering of food and other cultural practices. Is that what is intended here? If so, we should say that, because that is a different sort of limitation than the one that most people thought was being applied here. We should be clear about the way that that is intended to be given effect to, so it should be a new definition with a new empowering section in this amendment. It\u2019s not. I would suggest that the best way to deal with that problem is then to take out this reference to \u201Cphysical use\u201D, because physical use in our law is not a concept that is well understood or one that we are using here to interpret what sort of rights\u2014and none of us disagrees that there are rights that are given effect to by this legislation; it\u2019s just what the test is for them\u2014we mean when we have this debate. That is the right question to ask at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u0022eacb86e7ef544b8481973c29e810b369\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eacb86e7ef544b8481973c29e810b369\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll actually be quite short. I just want to pick up on a point that Steve Abel raised, and I want to just take it a step further. The point was around onus, and I\u2019m loath to say that a member as elegant as Steve Abel didn\u2019t quite capture, I think, what he perhaps intended, because there are two concepts: one is establishing marine title, and then another is to say that it\u2019s been extinguished. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EI think the onus for both of those questions may be different. If you\u2019ve had marine title, you can show that it existed in 1840, and you can show all of the other things that go to establishing marine title, but then the other party\u2014perhaps the Crown\u2014says, \u201CNo, it\u2019s been extinguished by some lawful Act.\u201D, then the question I have is this. Yes, the onus might be on the hap\u016B or iwi to establish all of those things that go to establish marine title generally, but if the other party is relying on an extinguishment, whether it be by legislation or by some other lawful Act\u2014some administrative Act, for example, or some appropriation of adjoining land or building a bridge across it by the Transport Agency, or something like that\u2014is the onus on the other party, and not on the hap\u016B or iwi, to establish extinguishment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EI think that\u2019s actually a really important question. I think it\u2019s quite separate from the question of establishing the coastal and marine title kind of prima facie, because it\u2019s essentially a defence to say that, yes, all that\u2019s true but there\u2019s been an extinguishment through these series of events. If the onus lies the other way and the hap\u016B or iwi have to prove on the balance of probabilities\u2014I\u2019m assuming\u2014that that didn\u2019t occur, that would seem entirely unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s really a short point. It\u2019s all I really wanted to raise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb9ba5e26f884d4bbea39ec0efcf5f0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb9ba5e26f884d4bbea39ec0efcf5f0e\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. We\u2019re on Part 1 and on the preamble of Part 1. When I read through this second preamble\u2014because we\u2019ve got a preamble and then we\u2019ve got a Part 1 preamble\u2014it reads, essentially, like a timeline. It recounts each of the court decisions and basically paves the way for explaining why the Government took the action it did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003EI would like to say to the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations that there appears to be one glaring error or missing piece of information from that timeline in the preamble. That key date that is missing from those series of events is the Cabinet decision on 28 November 2023, and that is clearly before the decisions of Whakat\u014Dhea Kotahitanga Waka (Edwards) v Te K\u0101hui Takutai Moana o Ng\u0101 Wh\u0101nau me Ng\u0101 H\u0101p\u016B o Te Whakat\u014Dhea. What occurred on 28 November 2023 is that Cabinet endorsed the coalition agreement between the parties as the basis on which the coalition Government will operate. The Cabinet circular provided an instruction to chief executives and their respective officers that they were to have processes in place to implement that. In that Cabinet circular in the National - New Zealand First coalition agreement, it includes a commitment to \u201Camend section 58 of the marine and coastal area Act to make clear Parliament\u2019s original intent in light of the judgment of the Court of Appeal in Whakat\u014Dhea Kotahitanga Waka (Edwards) \u0026amp; Ors v Te K\u0101hui and Whakat\u014Dhea M\u0101ori Trust Board \u0026amp; Ors.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s right that if that is a key point that this coalition agreement agreed upon and that is a fundamental reason that predates, actually, the court rulings that we are now legislating over, I would like the Minister\u2019s views on why that key piece of information\u2014which is an agreement between National and New Zealand First that is included in the coalition agreement and is fundamental, potentially, to the very legislation that we are debating now\u2014that glaring omission, is not included in the preamble to Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022 data-id=\u00226d3783d1e63b4d74a63c1324f14293ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d3783d1e63b4d74a63c1324f14293ef\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m wanting to speak to my tabled amendment to clause 8(1), to be found on page 8 of the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper 380. My proposed amendment is to seek to delete clause 8(1). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EThat clause, if we look at it, requires the claimant group to provide evidence based on physical activity or use of natural resources in the area of claim, and that spiritual or cultural association to that area is not relevant unless it is manifested in physical activity or use of natural resources. My colleagues in the Opposition have spoken to the fact that there are many ways to express your connection to the takutai moana in your tribal rohe. We have to remember also that for centuries, there has been disruption for tangata whenua of connection, physically, in the occupation of land abutting the takutai moana, where they have their whakapapa, where their mahinga m\u0101taitai [traditional shellfish gathering spots] are, where they have harvested, where they have paddled waka, and where they have had k\u0101uta or tauranga waka [working areas or canoe mooring].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EThe proposal in this amendment is to delete this section, because it\u2019s unfair. It is unfair on tangata whenua to have to show that, somehow, we\u2019ve got a physical manifestation of connection to that space, when we may not own, by Western law, the whenua abutting that part of the takutai moana. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EI raise that as an issue in my k\u0101inga, Whang\u0101rei-terenga-par\u0101oa, where the claimants stood in hearings and are waiting for a judgment right now, knowing that very few parcels of land around Whang\u0101rei-terenga-par\u0101oa remain within M\u0101ori hands. In fact, the harbour board and councils have been great beneficiaries of the land abutting the takutai moana in Whang\u0101rei because of public works taking, and yet our people continue to utilise those customary resources available within Whang\u0101rei-terenga-par\u0101oa as good kaitiaki. They continue to exercise their spiritual and cultural connection to that part of the takutai moana, as we see when tohor\u0101 beach themselves at Ruak\u0101k\u0101 and other parts of Whang\u0101rei-terenga-par\u0101oa. It is the hap\u016B that mobilises to demonstrate those cultural practices of connection to that place. They may not own the land abutting where that tohor\u0101 washed up, but they continue to go there, and they practise those cultural traditions of hauhake tohor\u0101 that have been handed down through the generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EThe expectation that, somehow, we have to reach this new threshold of demonstrating the physical manifestation of activity or use of natural resources is challenging for many tangata whenua\u2014not only for those who have already been through the hearings process and have already had the decisions of the court handed down or are waiting but also for those claimants who are still preparing themselves for hearings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EFurther, in light of this proposed amendment and the fact that we are saying, \u201CHey, let\u2019s acknowledge the many ways with which tangata whenua connect.\u201D, by deleting this clause, it opens up a pathway for us to look at\u2014as we\u2019ve discussed previously\u2014a structural framework whereby, as tangata whenua, we can participate in this process in a scheme to ensure that not only the protection and legitimate interests of all New Zealanders in the marine and coastal area of New Zealand are maintained but also that there\u2019s recognition that mana tuku iho for tangata whenua exists and continues to exist. I want to ask a question of the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations: can he tell us at what point did our customary connection and rights to the takutai moana become extinguished, and how did we lose our customary rights to the takutai moana? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s a whole new threshold. Now, we\u2019re expected to jump through a whole lot of new hoops. How were our rights as tangata whenua extinguished by the Crown and when did that occur? It would be great to hear from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00222ecc2c64ea3b47b28a31969eda0e5aab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ecc2c64ea3b47b28a31969eda0e5aab\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E The only thing I\u2019d say in relation to that member\u2019s speech, of course, is that nothing in this legislation impacts on the ability of M\u0101ori or non-M\u0101ori to go and collect shellfish and have a connection with a piece of coastline. That continues, and there are all sorts of arrangements in place in relation to customary fishing rights and shellfish-gathering rights and t\u012Bt\u012B gathering rights. All these things are not affected by this legislation, and they carry on. All New Zealanders\u2014and so has been the practice for 150 years now\u2014M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori, have used the coastal area and enjoyed it, collected fish and shellfish and had a great time, and nothing is being changed in relation to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EWhere the rubber meets the road in relation to this legislation, though, is the valuable rights that come with the recognition of customary marine title as outlined in this legislation, which, as we\u2019ve heard, was an agreement between the M\u0101ori Party and the National Party back in 2011, which sought to balance the rights of New Zealanders alongside the desire to be able to assert customary marine title by particular groups, wh\u0101nau or iwi. In relation to that, included in that bundle of rights is, for example, the ability to effectively grant or not grant resource consent for a range of activities, which\u2014and the previous member talked about a port\u2014can have real consequences for the operations of things going on in our marine space, which are important to how we operate as a country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EThat is why. With those valuable rights, part of the balancing act that was achieved by this legislation was a high threshold, which is what we\u2019re trying to establish through this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u0022b78d859fe2fb478b8ed59aee120fb2bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b78d859fe2fb478b8ed59aee120fb2bc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Again, my point is a relatively short one, I think, and it\u2019s about new section 9B, in particular, subclause (3)(b), which says that \u201CThis section prevails over\u2014(b) section 7\u201D\u2014of the principal Act\u2014\u201C(Treaty of Waitangi (te Tiriti o Waitangi));\u201D. Section 7 of the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act 2011, essentially, sets out that \u201CIn order to take account of the Treaty of Waitangi (te Tiriti o Waitangi), this Act recognises, and promotes the exercise of, customary interests of M\u0101ori in the common marine and coastal area by providing,\u2014\u201D, and it goes on to talk about the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EWhat it\u2019s really doing, in section 7, is saying that this Act is part of the Crown\u2019s discharge of its obligations under the Treaty. Obviously, the Treaty is relevant to any of these issues, but that is very much a parliamentary finger pointing to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, saying, \u201Cand the courts should recognise that this Act is to be interpreted in a way which is consistent with both the words and the principles of the Treaty\u201D. My question\u2014and I desperately hope the answer is a no\u2014is: does the overriding effect clause here mean that this Act overrides the Crown\u2019s obligation under Te Tiriti o Waitangi? If it does, it\u2019s both a surprise and a deeply concerning matter, because section 7 is, essentially, saying that this legislation is seeking to ensure that we are recognising coastal and marine rights consistently with all of the principles and statements in the Treaty of Waitangi, including the statement that says\u2014in English\u2014that M\u0101ori will be able to keep their rights\u2014their property rights, \u201Ctheir lands, forests, and fisheries\u201D, which are the English words, if I remember them rightly\u2014and yet, here, this seems to be saying \u201Cbut not fisheries\u201D, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0705017aca34596b491dfa83692fc07\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: It has nothing to do with the fisheries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bec14e69407f44849f7e63d42d62382a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you can scoff, Minister, but that\u2019s what the words of the Treaty of Waitangi say. Yet you\u2019re saying here that this piece of legislation will override the Treaty of Waitangi. That\u2019s exactly what this says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003ENow, my reo is not good enough to understand properly the reo version of the Treaty, but my understanding is that it goes further and talks not just about fisheries but about all of those taonga, which are precious, including wider rights of navigation and of kai collection, and the spiritual things which this explicitly overrides. Can the Minister assure us\u2014and this is important when the courts come to apply this\u2014that adherence with the Crown\u2019s obligations under the Treaty is still expected? That\u2019s, alarmingly, not what this appears to say. It says that\u2014\u201Coverriding effect\u201D is a strong phrase to use as a title\u2014\u201Cthis section prevails\u201D. That is to say it overrides, and is dominant over, section 7 of Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EIs the Minister going to stand up and preside over legislation which explicitly breaches the Crown\u2019s Treaty obligations, or can he assure me that I\u2019ve, in some way, read that wrong and he can stand up and say, on the record, for judges to understand parliamentary intent, that it is his intention that the Crown uphold, adhere to, and honour the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1335c73c71348dea98397decfaf3a47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1335c73c71348dea98397decfaf3a47\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Following on from an answer that the Minister gave, I want to ask him about what he meant about these rights that are in the coastal and marine area arising under the agreement reached by the National Party and the M\u0101ori Party in 2011. My colleague the Hon Duncan Webb has hit on another one of these issues, which is that the Crown\u2019s obligations under Te Tiriti o Waitangi are not a creature of statute. To purport to have an overriding effect over them gets us into some trouble. We need the Minister to clarify that the effect of that is what is intended, that Te Tiriti o Waitangi would not apply to the customary marine title (CMT) amendments. That is part of the constitutional framework that we\u2019re operating within, not that we are amending today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EThe question that I\u2019m asking the Minister is the same sort of question, because the constitutional framework in which we are operating within, and the customary rights that exist before that, are different things. With the customary rights that were to be tested in 2004-05, the purpose of that testing through the court was because they arose outside of any legislation. They were rights that had been in place before the signing of Te Tiriti o Waitangi in 1840. They were a bundle of rights that were associated with the legal system that was the law in New Zealand prior to that, which was tikanga M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EPurporting to say that these rights had arisen in the agreement reached by the National Party and the M\u0101ori Party in 2011 and were then enshrined in that legislation is wrong and is an interpretation of the law which doesn\u2019t recognise that those rights were something that existed and that there were a bundle of property rights held by people in accordance with the legal system which was operative. Those were rights that had arisen, and the question that we were being asked, as a Parliament at the time and as the New Zealand public engaged in this public debate, was how those should crystallise. How should the courts recognise those rights that exist? Those rights do in fact exist, so how should we give effect to them? That is something that all New Zealanders have an interest in, and that is why it\u2019s right for Parliament to have that debate. That is why we are still debating what was intended, but we are certainly not having an argument about whether they did exist, because if those rights hadn\u2019t existed, then we wouldn\u2019t be having this debate about whether they crystallised and what is associated with them\u2014like, whether you can have any sort of say in the consultative process of a local council in relation to a resource consent\u2014not whether those rights existed in the first place, because they did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EMy question for him is about\u2014it\u2019s on page 4 at the bottom, in clause 9B(2)\u2014this phrase: \u201CA decision maker (including the Court) must interpret the CMT amendments in a way that promotes their purposes and application (as stated in section 9A).\u201D I want to ask him how a decision maker is meant to interpret that when those rights already existed, but I also want him to explain what that means, because this is not the usual way that you would set out a duty for a decision maker or a duty for the court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003ECan we expect that it would be this Government\u2019s approach to insert preambles that are, essentially, a political narrative of the Government\u2019s policy and then clauses in other legislation which would require judges and require decision makers to comply with the interpretation of the policy of the Government in the way that is, essentially, being suggested here that they now have a duty to do? Inserting a preamble into a document is usually used in the context of Treaty settlements. This is not a Treaty settlement. These rights exist. These are not rights which arose in negotiation between two parties represented by counsel over many years where there is a process for that in New Zealand. These are rights which existed before that, so to suggest that a decision maker then needs to interpret those rights\u2014which are part of the common law of New Zealand\u2014in a way that is, in effect, promoting their purposes and application, which are set out in what is a political narrative plonked on the top of something that purports to be legislation, is a bizarre way to make law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003ECan we expect a National Government to now insert a preamble into every other piece of legislation for which they don\u2019t like decisions from the courts, like setting out perhaps their political campaign documents in the Crimes Act and asking judges to comply with that or else?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u0022920acdb9f8454ddc81d987e2f408cf1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022920acdb9f8454ddc81d987e2f408cf1d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the last part of that member\u2019s comments was irrelevant to this discussion. I just wanted to clarify, because the previous member, the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, was suggesting that, through this legislation, we were going to override the Treaty of Waitangi. As he well knows, what the section refers to is that it prevails over section 7 of the legislation, which has the title \u201CTreaty of Waitangi\u201D; it\u2019s not the Treaty of Waitangi itself. It is simply overriding section 7. We\u2019re replacing the specific comments in the legislation over the broad comments in section 7, but we are not seeking to override the Treaty of Waitangi, or Te Tiriti o Waitangi. We are simply referring to section 7 of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022479902c9577845f191b44402b5658544\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022479902c9577845f191b44402b5658544\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I would like to speak to Amendment Paper 380 and clause 8, \u201CSection 58, amended (Customary marine title)\u201D. My colleague has put up an amendment to delete that clause. I have an alternative, my tabled amendment No. 2. Now, for clarity, this amendment is the specific point at which the legislation articulates that \u201Cexclusivity of a group\u2019s use and occupation of a specified area [must be] based on evidence of a physical activity, or of a use, related to natural and physical resources (within the meaning of section 2(1)\u201D. That\u2019s new section 58(1A)(a) in clause 8, but new section 58(1A)(b) is that it \u201Cis not based on a spiritual or cultural association\u201D\u2014it explicitly articulates that it must not be based on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003ENow, to the point that my colleague Arena Williams made so eloquently\u2014speaking of eloquence, not as eloquently as Mr Duncan Webb clarified my question on where the onus falls. It is generous of you to say I was eloquent on that, and it\u2019s still an unanswered question. The onus of proving extinguishment\u2014we still haven\u2019t had an answer on that, but you out-eloquented me on that, Mr Webb, so I appreciate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003ETo the point that Arena Williams was making about the gathering of shellfish in her own family history, it is a problem for this complex history we have here for the courts to have clarity as to the character of customary use in customary marine title. Narrowing the things that the court can consider is particularly unhelpful for that court, because that very particular story that a member of this House was able to tell and that showed the relationship of her father\u2019s iwi to the marine coastal environment would be exceedingly useful and informative for a court. Under this Amendment Paper from the Minister, that sort of articulation would not be able to be considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EIn my amendment, I propose that, in determining whether an applicant group has exclusively used and occupied a specified area, the court may consider the following types of evidence\u2014and the purpose of this is to recognise the value of physical evidence, the following types of evidence: (a) physical activities and uses related to natural and physical resources\u2014let that be one of the considerations\u2014but also spiritual and cultural associations that are manifested through ongoing kaitiakitanga practices; oral histories, whakapapa and traditional knowledge; recognition by other iwi and hap\u016B of the applicant group\u2019s authority over the area\u2014surely, a very useful test for a court\u2014the exercise of mana and tikanga over the area; and any other evidence the court considers relevant and that gives due weight to M\u0101ori knowledge systems and customary practices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003ESurely, Minister, giving our courts that breadth of consideration to take into account all of these useful sources of information and evidence in order to give absolute confidence of the proof of customary marine title would be beneficial in upholding the principle of customary marine title and, indeed, Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f920d28d7b3a4d458214c66ee86ce25e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f920d28d7b3a4d458214c66ee86ce25e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E Just in terms of the burden of proof question that\u2019s been raised by a number of people, the 2011 Act says, in section 106, \u201CBurden of proof\u201D, in subsection (3), that \u201CIn the case of every application for a recognition order, it is presumed, in the absence of proof to the contrary, that a customary interest has not been extinguished\u201D, and the bill does not change that. The question of extinguishment is not covered by what we\u2019re talking about when it\u2019s in relation to the burden of proof. That relates to the applicants proving elements of the section 58 test, which is that they hold the area \u201Cin accordance with tikanga;\u201D and with exclusivity in the absence of \u201Csubstantial interruption\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022 data-id=\u0022da0579e192ba4e6091d806e4e2dac931\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da0579e192ba4e6091d806e4e2dac931\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. Ka hanga rerek\u0113 aku k\u014Drero ki te Minita. He nui ng\u0101 wetewetehanga o te ture kei mua i te aroaro, t\u014Dna h\u0101ngai ki Te Tiriti o Waitangi, te w\u0101hi ki te M\u0101ori hei whaka\u016B i t\u014Dna mana ki runga i \u014Dna moana.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EAhau, he uri n\u014D Te Tauihi-o-te-waka-a-M\u0101ui, n\u014D Ng\u0101ti Kuia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E[Greetings to us all. My comments to the Minister will be a little different. There are many analyses of the legislation that is before us, its relevance to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and the role of the M\u0101ori people to prove their authority of their maritime assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EMyself, I am a descendant of the Marlborough area, from Ng\u0101ti Kuia.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e48dcbdb5134cfdba2f7e1a80948a7c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: If you can just hold on, the Minister needs to get a translation device.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022144cca1f44694fc5a9d2c6beefe04bda\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Ka pai. Ka pai, \u0101e. N\u014D reira ka hanga rerek\u0113 aku k\u014Drero ki te Minita i te mea ko te reo e whai w\u0101hi ana ki roto i te whakawhitinga o t\u0113nei ture t\u012Bnei i te mana M\u0101ori ko te reo P\u0101keh\u0101. Mehemea ko te t\u016B\u0101papa o t\u0101 t\u0101tou tohe ko Te Tiriti o Waitangi, well kei hea mai te w\u0101hi ki te reo M\u0101ori hei waha i \u014Dna tikanga, i \u014Dna kawa, i ng\u0101 t\u0101tainga kawa taketake noa mai ki te moana, ki te whenua, e \u016B ai te mana moana, te mana whenua o t\u0113tahi iwi, o t\u0113tahi hap\u016B ki roto an\u014D i t\u014Dna rohe? Kei hea? Karekau, ki taku titiro.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira kua uta ki runga ki a m\u0101tou te haepapa ki te whakaahua i t\u014D m\u0101tou mana i runga i \u014D m\u0101tou whenua, i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou moana. Ka rite tonu taku tono p\u0101tai ki a koe, e te Minita, p\u0113r\u0101 i a Aperehama i t\u0113r\u0101 wiki, n\u0101na te k\u012B atu, \u201CKo wai hoki koe?\u201D Ko wai hoki koe ki te whakaw\u0101 i a m\u0101tou? Ko wai hoki koe ki te whakaw\u0101 i te mana whenua, i te mana moana o t\u0113tahi hap\u016B, o t\u0113tahi iwi m\u0113n\u0101 e pono ana koe ki t\u014D w\u0101hi i roto i Te Tiriti o Waitangi, ki te t\u016Btohi i waituhia e t\u014D Ku\u012Bni i te w\u0101 i a ia? Ki te mana taketake o ng\u0101 t\u012Bpuna M\u0101ori n\u0101 r\u0101tou Te Tiriti o Waitangi i waituhi, ko wai hoki koe? Ko wai hoki koe ki te kawe i \u0113nei ki te reo P\u0101keh\u0101, koia me t\u014Dna kotahi? Kei hea r\u0101 te w\u0101hi ki te m\u0101totorutanga o te ao M\u0101ori me t\u014Dna reo? T\u014Dna reo me \u014Dna tikanga? Te reo me \u014Dna tikanga; its language and its knowledge systems. Kei hea r\u0101tou? Kei hea \u0113r\u0101 mea e rua?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EAhau me m\u0101tou o Ng\u0101ti Kere, t\u014Dku wh\u0101nau, taku whenua tipu, kua haere ki t\u014D K\u014Dti Teitei, kua tae atu ki mua ki te aroaro o te tiati me te hora i \u014D m\u0101tou k\u014Drero katoa. Ka riro mai ko te whakaaetanga a t\u014D tiati. N\u0101, ka mutu t\u0113r\u0101, ka mea atu ng\u0101 kaum\u0101tua o Ng\u0101ti Kere he mana t\u014D te kupu. N\u0101wai r\u0101 taua mana ka whakahokia an\u014D nei he kur\u012B kai i t\u0101na ruaki. Kei hea r\u0101 te w\u0101hi ki ng\u0101 whare m\u0101tauranga o te iwi M\u0101ori? Me m\u0101tou o t\u014D m\u0101tou rohe, ng\u0101 whenua i murua katoatia, ng\u0101 ngahere i tahuna ki raro. An\u0101 ka t\u016B mai, ka tipu mai ko ng\u0101 p\u0101mu, ko te hipi, ko te kau, ka ngaro ng\u0101 whakamahinga o te whenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ET\u014D m\u0101tou iwi he iwi piripono ki te marae o Tangaroa. T\u014D m\u0101tou iwi he iwi noho takutai moana. Te wh\u0101rahitanga o t\u014D m\u0101tou rohe mai i \u014Cuepoto.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E[Oh, OK. OK, yes. So my comments to the Minister will be somewhat different because the language whose place is provided for within the discussions concerning this legislation that extinguishes M\u0101ori authority is the English language. If the foundation of our debate is Te Tiriti o Waitangi, well then, where is the place of the M\u0101ori language to convey its own traditional practices and its own protocols, the original cultural frameworks and practices that reach from the land to the sea, in order to prove the marine and terrestrial authority of a particular iwi, a particular hap\u016B within their own traditional estate? Where is it? There is none, in my view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EAnd so the responsibility has been put on to us to elucidate our authority over our lands and within our marine assets. My question to you, Minister, is the same as Aperehama\u2019s last week, who said, \u201CWho are you?\u201D Who are you to judge us? Who are you to judge the authority over land and sea of a hap\u016B or of an iwi if you are true to your role in Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the charter that was signed by your Queen in her time? To the original authority of the M\u0101ori ancestors that signed Te Tiriti o Waitangi, who, indeed, are you? Who are you to convey these things in the English language alone? Where is the role of the depth of M\u0101ori society and its language; its language and its traditional practices; its language and its knowledge systems? Where are they? Where are both of those things?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EMyself and those of us of Ng\u0101ti Kere, my family, the land where I was raised, we have attended your High Court, we\u2019ve gone before the judge to lay out all of our statements. We received a ruling of your judge in agreement. Once that was done, our elders of Ng\u0101ti Kere stated that words have power. With the passage of time, that authority will be returned like a dog consuming its own vomitus. Where is the role of the institutions of higher knowledge of the M\u0101ori people? And those of us from our traditional estate, the lands that were all confiscated, the forests that were burnt down. Subsequently farms were established and grew\u2014sheep and cattle\u2014and traditional uses of the land were lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EOur people are faithful to the domain of Tangaroa. Our people inhabit the coast. The breadth of our traditional area from \u014Cuepoto.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a69a40e255f247e6b73feaf976f1f9d6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Ferris, I can appreciate the broad nature of your speech at the moment, but we need to come back to this part of the bill at some stage as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235db26c31a8c414f92fa02022c12188a\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Chair. Kei te k\u014Drero ahau m\u014D te proving occupation. \u014C m\u0101tou k\u014Drero, \u014D m\u0101tou waiata, ng\u0101 ingoa o \u014D m\u0101tou t\u012Bpuna kei runga i \u014D m\u0101tou whenua, i \u014D m\u0101tou moana, i \u014D m\u0101tou toka t\u016B moana, ng\u0101 \u0101kau kei runga i te t\u0101huna, kei raro i te moana r\u0101nei\u2014ko Te Paerahi te ingoa o t\u014D m\u0101tou moana. E k\u014Drero ana m\u014D te w\u0101hi kei runga i te moana e kore e kitea te whenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira \u0113nei \u0101huatanga, n\u0101 ka whakat\u016Bt\u016B aku k\u014Drero, e te Tiamana, n\u0101 runga an\u014D i tana p\u014Dh\u0113h\u0113 k\u0101ore e whai h\u0101ngaitanga o aku k\u014Drero ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero o t\u014D pire. Engari e mea ana ahau kei te whai panga\u2014ne? Ko te rerek\u0113tanga o t\u0101 te titiro a te reo P\u0101keh\u0101 me te iwi P\u0101keh\u0101, me t\u0101 te titiro a te iwi M\u0101ori me t\u014Dna reo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EN\u0101 reira, \u201CTaketake noa ana taku noho t\u016Bturu, tau tonu mai i a Te Aomatarahi\u201D. Koin\u0101 te t\u012Bmatanga o t\u0113tahi tuhinga, titonga p\u0101tere o t\u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101p\u0101. T\u0113n\u0101 pea ki te haere tonu; me haere tonu? \u0100, ka pai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ET\u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101p\u0101, a Piri\u2014ne?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Chair. I am speaking about proving occupation. Our traditional narratives, our songs, the names of our ancestors bestowed on our lands, our ocean assets, our marine geological features, the reefs on the shoals or under the sea\u2014Te Paerahi is the name of our traditional ocean area. I am speaking about the area on the sea that cannot be seen from the shore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EAnd so to these things, now, I will compose my statements, Mr Chair, due to his misunderstanding that my comments have no relevance to the statements in the bill. However, I am saying that they are relevant\u2014right? It is the difference between a perspective of the English language and P\u0101keh\u0101 people and the perspective of the M\u0101ori people and their language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ETherefore, \u201CMy settlement of occupation if truly long-established, and was bequeathed to me from Te Aomatarahi\u201D. That is the opening of a composition, a traditional chant, by our patriarch. Perhaps if I were to continue; should I continue? Yes, OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EOur patriarch, Piri\u2014right?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217510ca7ac6b4f8b84ec79482c219dd0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Ferris, you are able to seek the call for another five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afd544ab327a4d93ba749018699f6ed5\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: E whakaae ana kia haere tonu ahau? T\u0113n\u0101 koe\u2014t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Ko te take kei te tiki atu i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 p\u0101tere i titoa e t\u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101p\u0101, e Piri, hei aha? Hei titi i te roherohenga whenua o Ng\u0101ti Kere m\u014D ng\u0101 ker\u0113me te take. Katoa ng\u0101 ingoa o te whenua\u2014ne? Katoa ng\u0101 ingoa o te whenua i riro i t\u014D m\u0101tou tipuna, i a Te Whatui\u0101piti, kei te p\u0101tere nei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EN\u0101, ko te evidence matua, me k\u012B, o t\u014D m\u0101tou ker\u0113me i tae ki te K\u014Dti Teitei ko te tuar\u0101 o te p\u0101tere nei e waha nei i te whare o Ng\u0101ti Kere he whaka\u016B, ne, he whakaahua, he whaka\u016B i t\u014Dna mana i runga an\u014D i \u014Dna whenua, i \u014Dna moana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira kei hea r\u0101 te w\u0101hi ki a koe? He k\u012B mai ki a m\u0101tou, \u201CT\u0113na, whakaaturia mai t\u014D mana tuku iho.\u201D N\u014D m\u0101tou i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou waiata, n\u014D m\u0101tou i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou ingoa, n\u014D m\u0101tou i roto i a m\u0101tou mahi i runga i te whenua, i roto i te moana, me te tukuihotanga o ng\u0101 mahi a ng\u0101 m\u0101tua t\u012Bpuna. Hei reira t\u0113nei mea te tukuihotanga, te taonga tuku iho e k\u014Drerotia ana i roto i te w\u0101hanga tuarua o Te Tiriti o Waitangi e whaka\u016B ana. E whaka\u016B ana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira hoki au ki te p\u0101tai a Aperehama, \u201CKo wai hoki koe?\u201D Anei taku wero ki te Whare: Kei hea r\u0101 te w\u0101hi ki Te Tiriti o Waitangi me t\u014Dna reo? Kei te k\u012B atu au ki a koe kua tae k\u0113 ahau ki mua ki te aroaro o \u014D k\u014Dti. Kua whakaae mai t\u014D tiati kei a m\u0101tou t\u014D m\u0101tou mana n\u0101 runga an\u014D i te tau titonga a t\u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101p\u0101, a Piri, n\u0101na i whakakotahi mai i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero ki te p\u0101tere kotahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EAn\u0101 k\u0113 taku whakamana i t\u014D m\u0101tou mana moana. An\u0101 k\u0113 taku whakamana i te rohenga whenua. Me taku m\u014Dhio ko ng\u0101 ku\u012Bni me ng\u0101 k\u012Bngi o Ingarangi, i p\u0113r\u0101 hoki r\u0101tou. K\u0101ore r\u0101tou i haere ki \u014D r\u0101tou w\u0101hi whakat\u016Bt\u016B whare ai, kao. I tonoa \u0113tahi kia waiata i \u0113tahi waiata, kia titoa \u0113tahi rotarota i kawea wh\u0101nuitia ki te ao. He mana t\u014D te kupu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira e kore e t\u014D roahia kia pau katoa t\u0113nei w\u0101 i a au, engari anei r\u0101 t\u0113tahi w\u0101hanga o te p\u0101tere e mea nei:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ETaketake noa ana taku noho t\u016Bturu\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ETau tonu mai i a Te Aomatarahi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EKo K\u016Bh\u0101roa, ko Haumearoa\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EHe tuahine n\u014D T\u016Bt\u0101mure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EKa puta mai ko Rongomaipureora\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EKo Te Ikaraeroa, ko Te Angiangi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EMakuru te whenua i tuku iho\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ET\u0101 Manuhiri he tono k\u0101inga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ET\u0101 Te Whatui\u0101piti he whakatihi kaihaukai\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EA Te Uaua-tamariki, Rurea me Taiwh\u0101\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EWhakaara-raumati, Rurup\u014D, Te Tore-o-Puanga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ET\u012Bmata tana roherohe i te p\u016Bau o \u014Cuepoto\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EMau ki \u014Cteka, ka makere ki roto o Mangam\u0101haki\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EMau ki Tamumu, pupuke whakah\u012B\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ETaka iho r\u0101 ki te awa o Tukituki\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EMau ki M\u0101k\u0101retu, t\u014Dna m\u0101t\u0101puna\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EMau ki Ruahine, t\u014Dku pae maunga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ETirohanga wh\u0101nui ki te pae moana\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EP\u0101nukunuku i te pae o Ruahine ki te m\u0101t\u0101wai o Manawat\u016B\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EK\u016Bteretere iho ki Mangatoro\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EMau ki T\u016Bt\u016Brewa, mau ki \u014Cp\u014Drae\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EKi Wahatuar\u0101, ki Puketoi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EKa makere iho ki te awa o Akitio\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EWhakatemoana ki t\u014Dna ngutuawa\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EHoki tonu mai m\u0101 te takutai one ki Te Poroporo-huariki, Taut\u0101ne\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EP\u0101 t\u016Bwatawata ana ki Whangaehu\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ET\u016B roa ko te rae o R\u0101kaip\u0101ka\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EAhu atu au ki Pariwhakaruru\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ET\u016B ki runga Te Upoko-o-Te-Haemata\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EKai ana aku mata runga o Te Paerahi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EAhu atu ki \u014Chine-muhu, Taikura, Parim\u0101hu\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EMutu tonu atu ki \u014Cuepoto\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EAnei taku whenua whakatipu\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ET\u016B mai ko Te Awap\u016Btahi ki runga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EP\u014Dp\u014Dhikitia ki raro\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EKo te roherohenga whenua o Ng\u0101ti Kere e tau nei\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101\u00A0koe\u00A0e te\u00A0Tiamana. Kia ora\u00A0t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E[Am I permitted to continue? Thank you\u2014thank you. The reason I am referring to this particular chant that was composed by our patriarch, Piri, is why? To embed the boundaries of the traditional estate of Ng\u0101ti Kere for the purpose of the claims. All the names of the landmarks\u2014right? All the names of the landmarks that came under the authority of our ancestor, Te Whatui\u0101piti, are all in this composition.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ENow, the primary evidence, I should say, of our claim that came before the High Court is the spine of this chant that describes the house of Ng\u0101ti Kere to prove\u2014right?\u2014to describe and prove its authority over its terrestrial and marine estate. And so what is your role? It was said to us, \u201CPlease demonstrate your authority that was handed down to you.\u201D It belongs to us within our songs, it is ours within our names, and it is ours within our activities on the land and on the sea and in the legacy of the actions of our forebears and ancestors. This is where this legacy exists, the inherited properties that are mentioned and guaranteed in Article the Second of Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014guaranteed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ETherefore, I would like to return to Aperehama\u2019s question, \u201CWho are you?\u201D This is my challenge to the committee: what is the role of Te Tiriti o Waitangi and its language? I say to you that I have already come before your courts. Your judge has agreed that we have our own authority due to the composition of our patriarch, Piri, who brought together the narratives in one single chant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EThat is indeed my proof of our authority over the ocean. That is indeed my proof of the terrestrial boundaries. And as far as I know, the queens and kings of England were the same. They didn\u2019t traverse their lands constructing buildings as they go, no. Some people were commanded to sing particular songs and compose poems that were then carried widely across the world. Words have power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EAnd so I will not prolong it and take up all the time myself. However, here is a section of the chant I referred to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EMy settlement of occupation if truly long-established \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003Eand was bequeathed to me from Te Aomatarahi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EK\u016Bh\u0101roa, Haumearoa\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ESisters of T\u016Bt\u0101mure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ERongomaipureora was born\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003Eand Te Ikaraeroa and Te Angiangi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EThe land of inheritance is bountiful\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EManuhiri requested accommodation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ETe Whatui\u0101piti held a great feast\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EThe food piles of Te Uaua-tamariki, Rurup\u014D and Te Tore-o-Puanga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EHis traditional estate commences at the \u014Cuepoto river mouth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EJourney to \u014Cteka, descend into the Mangam\u0101haki stream\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EProgress to Tamumu, a proud promontory\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EDescend to the Tukituki river\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ETravel to M\u0101k\u0101retu, its source\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EProgress to Ruahine, my mountain range\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EWith a wide view to the ocean horizon\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EFollow the contours of the Ruahine ridgeline to the source waters of Manawat\u016B\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EFlow down to Mangatoro\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EJourney to T\u016Bt\u016Brewa, and to \u014Cp\u014Drae\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ETo Wahatuar\u0101, to Puketoi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EDropping into the Akitio river\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EHead towards the sea to its mouth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EReturn via the sandy shore to Te Poroporo-huariki and Taut\u0101ne\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EMarch in defensive formation to Whangaehu\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EWhere the headland of R\u0101kaip\u0101ka has stood for time immemorial\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EHead towards Pariwhaaruru\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EStand upon Te Upoo-o-Te-Haemata\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EWhere my eyes behold Te Paerahi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EHead towards \u014Chine-muhu, Taikura and Parim\u0101hu\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ETo conclude at \u014Cuepoto\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EThis is the land where I was raised\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ETe Awap\u016Btahi mountain stands above\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EP\u014Dp\u014Dhikitia is below\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EThis is the traditional estate of Ng\u0101ti Kere, hereby established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EThank you, Mr Chair. Thanks to everyone.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u002205047ed2132e497db8e9a7df0b610bae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205047ed2132e497db8e9a7df0b610bae\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The honourable Minister. Just before I call him, Mr Ferris, you have been indulged by the Chair. Please respect that in any further contributions to this committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u002294f77f65d95846328dae4f72a7b80648\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294f77f65d95846328dae4f72a7b80648\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, I think the essence of the previous speech was to ask who I am to bring in such a bill. In answer to the member, I can say, well, I don\u2019t want to distract the committee in a long sort of family history, but the first of my family, Charles Goldsmith, arrived in this country in 1840-odd\u2014180 years ago. We\u2019ve heard of his exploits\u2014elements of it\u2014in the history of the House. He did a whole lot of stuff and entangled himself with Te Kooti, very sadly in many respects. That is the first of the many people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003ENow, the member\u2019s genealogy extends maybe four or five times longer than my 180 years in this country, but that makes me no less of a New Zealander than he or any other New Zealander is. My history goes back 180 years, and there are plenty of other places, and they have been enjoying the coastal area of this country for a very, very long period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003ESecondly, who am I? I am a Minister of the Crown, elected by the people of New Zealand in the modern democracy in which we live. We as a Government are setting out to try and do our best to find a way through the debates and discussions that we have as a country to recognise our history, recognise customary rights, recognise the role of the Treaty, and try to figure out how to do that in 2025 and in the context of a modern democracy where people have general expectations about what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EWe are blessed to live in one of the few countries in the world where we have accountable Government, where the people of New Zealand regularly get the chance to throw out Governments that they don\u2019t like. They\u2019ve done that recently and they won\u2019t be doing it for a long time to come, I imagine, but you never know. They might, and that is the system that we have, and we\u2019re accountable for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re trying to do, as elected members here, is to find a balance between a point of view that\u2019s put out that the entire coastal area of this country\u2014this land is girt by sea, as the Australians are as well\u2014is still owned or held in customary title by the original inhabitants, and we\u2019re also trying to recognise that other people have an interest in it. That is why this legislation that we\u2019re debating today sought to balance those rights back in 2011 by finding a pathway through for people to recognise customary marine title while also setting a high threshold. We\u2019re having a debate about where that threshold should be. That is who I am, and I hope you\u2019re interested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u0022840c14fb4d4f4031a1f68f7e9bc50fc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022840c14fb4d4f4031a1f68f7e9bc50fc8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Now, the Chair has handed out more indulgences than a 12th century Pope today. We have a balance. We\u2019re going to maintain that balance. We\u2019re now going to be back on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u002240b254c532224439a5b067e2e11cb7fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240b254c532224439a5b067e2e11cb7fa\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll bring the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations to page 7 of the bill. It is new section 58(1A)(b) in clause 8 that I want to discuss with him, and it does relate to the contribution of the previous speaker T\u0101kuta Ferris, because I think all of us can find what he was saying there around whose history and how do we establish what history is relevant to this paragraph (b). This is a prohibition on decision makers to not make an inference which is \u201Cbased on a spiritual or cultural association with all or part of the area\u201D. I raise this point again because it is important that we understand exactly what we are agreeing to here, and I don\u2019t think it is something which many members in this House quite appreciate just how far-reaching that is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EIn the situation where evidence is presented in this kind of case, that evidence is treated as expert evidence. You might have in this sort of proceeding a kaum\u0101tua, or a person who has a long and in-depth knowledge of not only the history of a particular area but the genealogy of those people who claim whakapapa to that area, present to a court, or even to the tribunal, their evidence of associations, and the reason that they will often begin with the spiritual and cultural associations to that place is because they see that as the most important evidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EThe reason I raise this and step the committee through it is that it is the most relevant and important evidence, because that is how associations are recorded in the way that they are engaging not only with what they are presenting in the law now but what the law is in accordance with tikanga M\u0101ori. They are, essentially, presenting evidence of, say, the stories that Ng\u0101i Tahu have of the children of Hine-nui-te-p\u014D\u2014the ankle-biting sandflies in the fiords\u2014and the stories of how they are kaitiaki of those places. It is important to appreciate their cultural lineage and their genealogy and the spiritual associations that people have with those sandflies, not because they are presented as spiritual evidence, but because they are presented as evidence of occupation, evidence of use, and evidence of association with land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important that we appreciate that in paragraph (b), what is being extinguished here is the ability of that evidence to make a difference to these decisions; in fact, it\u2019s a prohibition on someone hearing the evidence on which they would draw inferences about that. It\u2019s not just saying that \u201CWe think you\u201D\u2014the courts\u2014\u201Cshould take into account different sorts of evidence, including spiritual evidence and physical use.\u201D It\u2019s also not saying that \u201CThere is a hierarchy of the type of evidence that we want you to take into account, and that spiritual evidence should come after actual-use evidence.\u201D It\u2019s actually saying that \u201CEvidence that you hear, probably first, from the expert of genealogy and spiritual connection to a place, the evidence that they think is most important to their case\u2014that is evidence that you must not make inferences about.\u201D, and that changes the way that these proceedings will have effect. It changes the way, ultimately, that M\u0101ori will see the court system and their ability to participate in this process, and it ultimately devalues the way that this history has been preserved in our oral culture, because it is one thing to require someone to set out their physical use of an area while written records exist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EMy father was an historian for the Waitangi Tribunal in the 1990s. He compiled much of the evidence in Tauranga Moana, for example, by interviewing orally and then writing down the evidence that was presented around physical use of those lands. That is useful, and now it is evidence that can be gone back to because it exists. That was not a service that existed in the decades leading up to the 1990s, because the Waitangi Tribunal did not operate. It is not evidence that is available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EThe evidence that is available to establish use up to the year of 1840 is that waiata that T\u0101kuta Ferris used. It is the karakia that establishes the use of the land and of the trees, and that use of the land where those sandflies that bite at the ankles of te uri o Ng\u0101i Tahu, ng\u0101 uri o Te Wai Pounamu, are plagued by. Those are useful stories that tell us the existing history, and so to take out the ability of someone to make an inference about that use changes the system entirely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3725ea7e5214f90838cc2d336ec761a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3725ea7e5214f90838cc2d336ec761a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. As someone who has spent plenty of time in Fiordland, I\u2019m not sure Arena Williams fully appreciates the fierceness of the sandflies. I would curse them rather than see them as a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b25337798164d3d858f1cb0ffbf5c06\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: I can tell you their whakapapa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284eb5cdfa2584dea8acbfe70933cc0e0\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha\u2014yeah! Look, I actually wanted to go to the Schedule, which Part 1 incorporates. It\u2019s actually a really important part of the bill because it\u2019s got all the transitional provisions in it. I\u2019ll talk about those at another point. The one I really want to talk about is new clause 6 in the Schedule, \u201CNo entitlement to compensation\u201D. Now, there are two reasons why I want to talk about this. The first one is one of principle. That is, if the Minister accepts\u2014because it seems to be his view that the law before the bill was passed at the moment is more generous in the recognition of customary rights than it will be afterwards\u2014we have a good number of iwi who have embarked upon the recognition process and who are either through the ministerial process or the court process, a significant way through, that would strike me as, to take the words out of another piece of legislation before this House, \u201Ca significant impairment of their property rights\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EMy question is really about whether the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations is happy to stand up and do what he will be expected to do under the Regulatory Standards Bill when it\u2019s passed and explain why he is not compensating, under this legislation, owners of property rights whose property rights are being significantly impaired by this. That\u2019s the first point about compensation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EThe second point itself has two legs, and that is about the work that has been put into these claims. It\u2019s not cheap. Much of the work is done, as Arena Williams has sort of alluded to, by oral history and voluntary work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258c4466f01db427db5dca038ca747a2a\u0022\u003EH\u016Bhana Lyndon\u003C/span\u003E: Volunteers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f411cea284aa4bf085596cd7c1fe2312\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right\u2014\u201Cvolunteers\u201D is absolutely right, but also there are a few people who get paid along the way, as well. That can really add up, so my question is: why is there no compensation for the significant lost value where people have spent years both in cash and time in pursuing these claims?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f3f3dae642d43a18b8d1b96d1de098c\u0022\u003EH\u016Bhana Lyndon\u003C/span\u003E: Sacrificed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228be0039fb174d8bb4851c9f5a19371b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s my call at the moment, so just\u2014ha, ha! But the second leg of that is this: if the litigants in the court cases, in particular, go to the courts\u2014because in these cases, at least in some instances, they\u2019ll be like, \u201CWell, what\u2019s the point? You\u2019ve changed the rules under us. We can now look at it, and we\u2019ve got legal advice that says we\u2019ll now be unsuccessful.\u201D, but the costs issue is still extant. If a litigant goes to the court and says, \u201CWell, the other side changed the rules of the game whilst we\u2019re halfway through.\u201D, but this court has a discretion to award costs on any basis it thinks fair and just and fit, does new clause 6 limit the right of the court to award costs against the Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EIt strikes me that if you go to court, it doesn\u2019t matter. Even if you discontinue, the court has a discretion to say, \u201CIn all of the circumstances, the litigation was properly brought, and the behaviour of the other side led to it being discontinued.\u201D, and in those cases, the court can award costs, in my example, against the Government. Does new clause 6 mean that courts cannot award costs against the Government in marine and coastal area claims?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc6e36705eda4fa7ba8275881cc13b08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc6e36705eda4fa7ba8275881cc13b08\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I think the member knows the answer to that question, which is, no, it doesn\u2019t. It\u2019s in relation to claims about property rights and compensation, and our view, of course, is that this bill is reasserting what Parliament intended in the original bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EIn terms of costs, we do recognise the very big frustrations that many people associated with this process would be feeling about having to rehear seven cases, potentially\u2014four that have been decided since 2024; not the original Whakat\u014Dhea case, which is being left to enjoy the fruits of their litigation, but the four customary marine title awards made since 25 July 2024, and three are pending. The Government has set aside $15 million towards the extra cost. It is not a desirable situation, and it\u2019s not something we\u2019ve done with great pleasure or excitement. It is not something that we wanted to do at all, but we felt that it was required, given the significant change to the threshold that first came through the Court of Appeal decision, and it has continued, in elements, through the Supreme Court decisions. We do recognise that it will be very trying for particularly those seven cases that have gone to hearing. We do note that there are many, many, many more cases still to come, and that\u2019s why we believe, as a Government, that it\u2019s important to get that threshold correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EIn terms of the cost, the cost has been huge. I don\u2019t have the exact figure, but more than $65 million has been spent by the people of New Zealand in support of claims that have been taken so far over the\u2014what is it?\u2014nearly 14 years since the legislation has passed, in support of claimants. Much money has been spent, and the predictions are that we have another 20 or 30 years of litigation, and so there are many elements of this legislation that need further work. That still has to be dealt with outside this legislation. But in terms of the court costs, we have set aside a sum of money for that purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022397fb63fa4514e4fa5a40b98450e8fbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022397fb63fa4514e4fa5a40b98450e8fbf\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, I appreciate it. I\u2019m speaking to clause 8 on Amendment Paper 380. I believe that the contribution of T\u0101kuta Ferris was exceedingly eloquent and practical and demonstrative of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b2ece3dffec4dcdb835c8570dd8a44b\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Watch out, New Zealand, you\u2019re getting the Greens, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, and Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226034f2516e354e009f1a723ce7d46175\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the challenge that we face here. It enhanced the mana of the House\u2014Mr Bates\u2014for us to hear firsthand a p\u0101tere, a chant, that shows exactly how a cultural form elucidates the physical interactions of an iwi with a particular area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EMy question for the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations is this: given that such an articulation of the relationship of an iwi to an area articulates physical boundaries and physical activities with the marine coastal environment, in new section 58(1A), in clause 8, where it is articulated that \u201Ca group\u2019s use and occupation of a specified area in a period \u2026 is based on evidence of a physical activity, or of a use, related to natural and physical resources\u201D, does the Minister regard the likes of a chant articulating that as evidence? Is that evidence, and\u2014to the point\u2014if it is evidence, then new section 58(1A)(b), which goes on to say, \u201Cis not based on a spiritual or cultural association\u201D\u2014does paragraph (b) rule not out the possibility of such a piece of evidence being accepted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EMy final point, to clarify the question, is that you just gave us an oral testimony of your own family history here in Aotearoa New Zealand, and we accepted that testimony. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b5f4afb16374dec9f428908e28108b8\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Enjoyed it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223034c0ec3faf43edaa8e15c82d01cac0\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: We enjoyed it. We took your words in good faith, and you brought no physical evidence. This whole House relies on testimony\u2014oral testimonies\u2014that we may question or test, but why would you deny something as powerful as the likes of the articulation of the relationship in a physical sense that an iwi produces on a regular basis in interaction, in telling their history with the land and the water? Why would it, potentially, be denied? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u0022c344c718f0014d8baa9109c135337c42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c344c718f0014d8baa9109c135337c42\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E In response to that, all evidence has been and will continue to be relevant to the decision maker. The change is that cultural or spiritual evidence needs supporting evidence of physical use, but tikanga and oral evidence remain important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u002265782198041245c8b97c2479d89c18f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265782198041245c8b97c2479d89c18f1\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for my call, which I\u2019m very grateful for, and I hope that my colleagues are able to participate in the debate further. I want to ask the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations this: why will he not exclude the case of Ruapuke Island from the further customary marine title amendments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EIn his preamble to the bill, he seeks out an arrangement with Ng\u0101ti Porou, which is a legislative arrangement which recognises their coastal and marine title and how this Act is intended to interact with the existing arrangement. That\u2019s good and that is fair for Ng\u0101ti Porou. Ng\u0101i Tahu have suffered at the hands of colonisation and have been dispossessed of their lands in Te Waipounamu for many generations, and Ruapuke Island is no exception. It is incredibly important to the history of Ng\u0101i Tahu and the uses of its people. The Ruapuke Island decision is probably at the top of the list of one where this is a use of taxpayer money which is not necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EI doubt that the Minister ever intended to extinguish the rights which have been crystallised and recognised at the High Court level in the case of Ruapuke Island. I want to underscore this point to you: that decision found from the expert evidence that the applicant group had held this specified area in accordance with tikanga and that they had whakapapa connections to that area, but they also had exercised control in that area through mahinga kai, through kaitiakitanga, through r\u0101hui that they exercised, and through protection of biodiversity. It was regular use, physical use, use in a customary sense, use of land rights, and the use of British land rights, and that is something which meets all of the tests which the Minister has talked about today. Everything in this committee stage points to that decision still standing, and it should stand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EIt has been a long time coming that the wh\u0101nau of Ruapuke Island have not had their rights and interests recognised in the marine and coastal area of the island, despite the Crown coming to arrangements with the owners of the T\u012Bt\u012B Islands and their traditional take in those islands in a different way\u2014and so it is time. Why, Minister, won\u2019t you carve out that action, which recognised the coastal and marine area of those wh\u0101nau who whakapapa to Te Waipounamu? Why won\u2019t you preserve the rights that exist now, when the High Court has recognised them under the old test but they will clearly meet your new test? Why must they go back, using taxpayers\u2019 money\u2014the $15 million, or a portion of that\u2014to be reheard? Why must they now comply with the new evidence requirements and the duties on decision makers as you have set them out in these amendments, when it is clear to almost everyone in this House that that is the case, which should still stand, and that the rights that exist there are rights which most New Zealanders would want to recognise? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003ERuapuke Island is important historically. It is important culturally, not only to those people who are landholders there and landowners, and not only to Ng\u0101i Tahu but to all New Zealanders, in a history that we can be proud of in the South. It is a history of colonial intermarriage and a history of mahinga kai that is unique in the world and a history that should be celebrated, and that wh\u0101nau can now move on because they have done the work since 2017 in lodging that application, where they had to compile the evidence, they had to take it through a forum that was rigorous and it was tested, and it was won. Why isn\u2019t now the time that we can finally say to the wh\u0101nau of Ruapuke, \u201CYou have done what you needed to do. You have met the high bar. You can now move on to telling your story of the occupation of Ruapuke and of the history there and the colonial intermarriage, and it is something that all New Zealanders can be proud of.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u0022b875f40b979e4581b3beacc4941f1f2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b875f40b979e4581b3beacc4941f1f2e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. My friend and colleague Arena Williams just went through a particular claim that has been decided but will have to be relitigated, which raises the transitional provisions. I must say, I\u2019ve seen some transitional provisions in my time\u2014this is in new Schedule 1AA in clause 11\u2014but these ones take the cake. They probably take the cake because they\u2019re trying to do something extremely complicated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003ELook, I get the basic rule, which is that if before the Government\u2019s announcement, you had sorted out your claim and it had been finally decided, then that\u2019s all well and good. That\u2019s going to be a very small number of claims. But from there, it takes another kind of two pages to explain the complexities about how it\u2019s all going to work from there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EThere is the basic principle, which is\u2014because this breaches the rule against retrospectivity, because there\u2019s one band of cases\u2014and I think this is the one Arena Williams was referring to, where the Government made a policy announcement but hasn\u2019t passed the law; the judicial process ground on and decisions were made, and so those rights have crystallised, they\u2019ve been recognised by law, and these transitional provisions, if I\u2019ve got it made, this is for clause 4 in new Schedule 1AA: \u201CCertain CMT decisions made in interim period, and related agreements and orders made, have no legal effect and never have had legal effect\u201D. I love that one because it\u2019s actually saying the Earth is flat, essentially\u2014that the world is such that that decision never happened, when, in fact, it did. Now, that is very much against the principle of retrospectivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EGiven that there is a limited number of cases that fall in here, what is the massive policy objection to saying, \u201CWell, you got in under the law as it was.\u201D, which is how it works? We generally like to think that this is the concept of the rule of law. The Minister may not be familiar with it, but the idea is that you apply the law as it stands and you don\u2019t pull the legal rug from under people and change legal history, but that seems to be exactly what\u2019s going on here. Can he please explain, in a principled way, why he can\u2019t adhere to the principle that we don\u2019t legislate retrospectively?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EThe other thing I\u2019d like him to explain is\u2014because I just can\u2019t quite get it\u2014if you\u2019ve got legislation in train and you\u2019ve gone through various steps, you\u2019ve had questions about procedure, you\u2019ve had questions about evidence, you\u2019ve had setting-down hearings, and so on, what happens to all of those steps? Do those people have to go all the way back to square one and, essentially, file a new claim under the new regime, or can they use all of the work that\u2019s been done to date? That\u2019s quite an important one. I see he\u2019s taking some advice. It\u2019s quite an important question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EPerhaps the other adviser can listen to this one, because then the third question is this: if you fall into the sad category of someone who\u2019s got across the finish line and then got told \u201CGo back to the start.\u201D, what is the status of the proceedings in the interim, because other than having the judge look at the evidence and apply the law, it looks like all the work has been done. The hearing has been had, and whilst the legal decision-making framework might be changed and you might need some legal submissions, surely you don\u2019t have to adduce all the evidence all over again, because that work\u2019s been done. Now, that doesn\u2019t fit neatly within a transitional provision, but neither does saying that the cases that had been decided never had any legal effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EThere are a whole lot of questions: why are we being retrospective, what are we doing about interim decisions and interlocutory decisions, and what about those cases? What happens to all the legal work that\u2019s been done in the cases which have been finalised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8f677d591954f42b22939dd68a58760\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8f677d591954f42b22939dd68a58760\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E There are a number of questions there, but in terms of where the date of taking effect came from\u2014and this is in relation to the date that we had in June last year\u2014I mean, in essence, the goal was to ensure that we had as much consistency with the rest of the vast majority of cases that haven\u2019t yet come forward, to have a consistent test, but to recognise that those that had been concluded and granted before the date, we didn\u2019t want to unscramble. That was the logic there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003EIn terms of having to go back to the start: no, it\u2019s not our expectation that the cases that have been heard have to go right back to day one and start the whole process again; merely, that they would presumably need to reconsider or hear any extra evidence that\u2019s required in relation to the amended test or the clarified test. It\u2019s not going right back to the start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022 data-id=\u002235bfb137225844cf9d3f2c686c230c12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235bfb137225844cf9d3f2c686c230c12\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 of the bill holds the real meatiness around what the meaning of \u201Cexclusive use and occupation\u201D is, as well as the meaning of \u201Csubstantial interruption\u201D, and that\u2019s included in new sections 57A and 57B in clause 7. My question to the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations is that he directed that the amendment bill initially needed to be drafted at the end of 2024, which is before we had court decisions. I\u2019m interested to understand the nature and the depth of the analysis that was undertaken for the substantive changes\u2014the meaning of \u201Cexclusive use and occupation\u201D and the meaning of \u201Csubstantial interruption\u201D. I would like to understand a little bit more around the timing and the depth of that analysis, given the fact that this bill was directed by him to be enacted by the end of 2024, which is before those decisions were taken by the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003EThe development of policy, the drafting of legislation to give effect to that policy\u2014it\u2019s noted quite clearly in the regulatory statement that there were some pretty significant constraints put upon it, with tight time frames required to meet the Government\u2019s objective of enacting the amending legislation before the end of 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested to know why it is now, towards the end of 2025, if he has a view on that, and whether that extended time frame from what he initially intended actually enabled any further analysis or in-depth review of these provisions to occur. The indication in the regulatory impact statement is that the policy advice that Te Arawhiti was able to provide was consistently constrained. In fact, they note in the regulatory impact statement that they sometimes only had days. They specifically state they had days to turn around advice that has led to the parts of this bill, for the development of options, subsequent advice, even the Cabinet papers, and that there were very short consultation periods, sometimes only as short as a couple of weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003EThe concern that I have is that for substantial definitions such as the meaning of \u201Cexclusive use and occupation\u201D, it appears, from looking through the regulatory impact statement, that the ability for substantive analysis was completely restrained. In fact, they note\u2014and it may be that he has a reason for this, which I\u2019d like to know\u2014that the development of a regulatory impact analysis before Cabinet decisions on the broad policy intent was not able to be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003ECabinet made policy decisions without a regulatory impact analysis actually being provided to them, and I would like to understand why that happened. The supplementary analysis came after Cabinet had actually taken the decision to proceed. The financial forecasting was not undertaken before Cabinet policy decisions on the cost of re-hearings for the six live High Court cases that both my colleagues Duncan Webb and Arena Williams have referred to. There was no forecasting of the financial implications, I understand, when that Cabinet decision was taken, or the costs associated with the anticipated litigation, so what\u2019s that case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003EAlso, the analysis of compliance with international obligations and the potential inconsistency with the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples\u2014that was raised by claimants in the urgent Waitangi Tribunal hearing inquiry. Finally, the point: the wide stakeholder or public consultation to understand the scale or the significance of the issue and the extent to which the Court of Appeal decision might cause problems in practice. All of those things were not taken into account when Cabinet made the decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003EThe point I\u2019d like to make is that what this is all pointing towards\u2014and I\u2019d love to hear the Minister\u2019s views\u2014is that when significant decisions in Part 1 have been taken about the meaning of \u201Cexclusive use and occupation\u201D, can he reassure New Zealanders that there was actually adequate analysis that took place, because it\u2019s looking like all arrows are pointing towards this being simply a provision within the coalition agreement that was enacted without proper due analysis. Even in the regulatory impact statement, it actually specifically states the Minister\u2019s understanding of Parliament\u2019s original intent. It is not the original intent, but the Minister\u2019s understanding of original intent was that the decision\u2014and, Mr Chair, I intend to have another minute to finish off. I seek a second call, if that\u2019s possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u00223eeb3da7ae5d48c98a7353050054fb4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223eeb3da7ae5d48c98a7353050054fb4c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: You can ask.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220750364c2c1444d0ae00bced720f964e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d10910c49f64a9eaef211f1fe0bf799\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, can I have a second call to complete my\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf40af547ec349e482b142e002e4a4f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf40af547ec349e482b142e002e4a4f8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair for the meal break, and the member may want to finish the question when she comes back, so the Minister is not under time pressure to answer. The committee of the whole House will resume at 7.30.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.59 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u002248d2b73949f24631843f3643efd46869\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248d2b73949f24631843f3643efd46869\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Good evening, members. The committee is resumed. When we\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220edac650af9e4a4182080517ff8b9950\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a54dcc87ca841b89bdcf5edac4116e0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute. When we broke for the dinner break, we were debating Part 1 and that is the debate on clauses 3 to 11, \u201CAmendments to Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act 2011\u201D. The question still is that Part 1 stand part, but before I give the call, can I please just ask, for my own preference, that you refer to the clause that you\u2019re referring to as you do your presentation or ask your question. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3b1f0e942614f389dd3e73a549ded27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3b1f0e942614f389dd3e73a549ded27\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for this opportunity and also the engagement from the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations; I want to acknowledge that. Some of these questions can get a little bit tricky\u2014we are talking lore and law. In this instance, my question to the Minister\u2014because I haven\u2019t heard an answer to it yet\u2014is whether the Minister has made it clear to the committee at this point in time whether or not he intends on supporting a number of the amendments that have been made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EI also want to speak to this particular amendment, which refers to new section 106(2)(b) in clause 10. The amendment under the name of my colleague Arena Williams looks to delete the words \u201Cand occupation\u201D. It is in there, new section 106(2)(b) in clause 10: \u201Chad exclusive use and occupation of the specified area from the start to the end of the applicable period\u201D. The first question is whether or not the Minister will support the amendment tabled by my colleague, which I think is a reasonable one. I did mention earlier in our proceedings that the word \u201Coccupation\u201D is going to come up quite a number of times because the bill looks towards lifting the threshold, which we\u2019ve continued to debate this evening. That\u2019s the first question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EThe second one is slightly more tikanga-nuanced, if you will. We know that in a number of those settings in and around the takutai moana, a number of activities have happened and continue to happen there that are undertaken by iwi. I\u2019m speaking in particular to the burial of t\u016Bpuna bones, and sites of significance, many of which are already classified through either the Department of Conservation or through Treaty settlements with the Government. I ask whether or not that actually meets the threshold of \u201Coccupation\u201D, if you will, and, in particular, whether it was undisturbed for those iwi or hap\u016B or wh\u0101nau during that time. There are many places I can think of, in particular, in Te Tai Tokerau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EAnother point I want to ask the Minister is this\u2014he went to lengths earlier to clarify the Queen\u2019s Chain; he spoke to that earlier, and he also made reference to the desire around aquaculture and resource consents, etc. I wonder if the Minister has got a view on the way that toheroa spat works. I\u2019m not too sure if the Minister knows how toheroa spat works, but you might find the toheroa on the beach or closer to the waterline, but, actually, the spat finds itself in the sand dunes. I just wondered, despite the Minister\u2019s reference to and explanation of the Queen\u2019s Chain, whether or not what we\u2019re talking about here with reference to the Minister\u2019s words towards permits and resource consent but also aquaculture could include that particular harvesting and the aquaculture of the toheroa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EThose are just my questions for now for the Minister. Once again, that\u2019s clause 10 in Part 1, around the amendment tabled by my colleague Arena Williams, around the deletion of the words \u201Cand occupation\u201D, and then there are the matters that I\u2019ve raised with respect to the use of the land, as well as aquaculture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00226f57fa8a5d4c4001a85e08cf9c7c4061\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f57fa8a5d4c4001a85e08cf9c7c4061\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just in relation to the question, I\u2019m not of a mind to support the amendment that the member refers to, and I do thank the member for his advice on the matter of toheroa spat, which was indeed new to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u00225cc35a9391ec48dfa6fde53d1ee2eb64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cc35a9391ec48dfa6fde53d1ee2eb64\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to talk about the substantial interruption and changed test, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e06fb8a5810d4b0fac137621f7e5e83c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Which clause is that, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3c6e6e6af3049219192a0eecdd95aa9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, it\u2019s in new section 57B(c) in clause 7. This is the question of the interruption of the exclusive use and occupation. I\u2019m particularly interested in the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations\u2019 explanation where the customary right is, perhaps, a seasonal or even an occasional customary right. Seasonal harvesting would be one, but others would be, for example, the use of the area for navigation by a waka for ceremonial purposes once a year or for tangi, or for something like. The definition, particularly in new paragraph (c), talks about any activity, including fishing or navigation, \u201Ccarried out,\u2014(i) wholly or partly in that area; and (ii) by a person, or persons, who did not belong to the group; and (iii) with \u2026 authorisation by or under legislation or otherwise lawfully:\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003ENow, I guess, my question is: does that activity have to be kind of inconsistent with the customary right? If we have navigation in this coastal area that is also used for, perhaps, you might call it \u201Cceremonial navigation\u201D, then it would seem to be a lawful use which is non-exclusive, right? If you have, I don\u2019t know, dragon boats going up and down for a dragon boat festival\u2014entirely unrelated to tikanga, but it is wholly or partly in the area\u2014by a person or persons who don\u2019t belong to the group, and it is a lawful activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EMy question, therefore, is: is that the kind of thing which is supposed to show there is a substantial interruption of this customary right? It\u2019s quite conceivable that there are customary rights which occur only once every few months or only once a year or conceivably once a generation, or even longer than that, but that doesn\u2019t make them any less customary rights. To say that they\u2019re interrupted by what, in some ways, would be considered kind of noise, activities of other locals going about their business in a way which isn\u2019t actually inconsistent with the customary right, but, at the same time, uses the same area, wholly or partly, that don\u2019t belong to the group, and it\u2019s entirely lawful\u2014so I guess I\u2019m trying to ask: what do we mean by a \u201Csubstantial interruption\u201D when we\u2019ve got other activities which are consistent with but use the same resources as the customary right? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee9ecc6ec7044664a80f59794551a2ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee9ecc6ec7044664a80f59794551a2ac\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. I\u2019m speaking to the exact same section, so that\u2019s timely, isn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264f8879862a7439789d3bed66a907dfd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Or repetitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd0f790fd95248c098b6a51865fc16ee\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: It won\u2019t be repetitive, I can assure you, because one of the key challenges of substantial interruption\u2014and it has been acknowledged in Canada and Australia, as well as here\u2014is that one of the causes of substantial interruption, or the most likely cause in recent years, is, of course, acts of colonisation, the effect that iwi M\u0101ori haven\u2019t been able to express their customary rights because they haven\u2019t got access to the portion of the seabed that is theirs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EIn regard to that problem, I have a proposed amendment, my tabled amendment No. 8, which proposes that, in clause 7, which my colleague was just speaking to, we replace the new section 57B in a manner that takes into account that the Crown would not want to be disadvantaging a claim to customary marine title based on interruptions that were clearly a consequence of colonisation. The wording I\u2019m proposing is that in this Act, \u201Csubstantial interruption\u201D means \u201Can interruption to the applicant group\u2019s use and occupation of an area that was of such a nature, extent, and duration that it effectively severed the group\u2019s connection with the area and that was caused by factors within the group\u2019s control or by the group\u2019s voluntary abandonment of the area\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EBut it does not mean interruptions caused by confiscation of adjacent land by the Crown. It does not mean legislation, including the Foreshore and Seabed Act 2004; it does not mean the Crown\u2019s policies that prevented or restricted M\u0101ori access; it does not mean interruptions caused by the establishment of ports, harbours, or other infrastructure without the group\u2019s consent; and it does not mean commercial activities licensed by the Crown. None of those things should be able to extinguish on the grounds of substantial interruption. That is the amendment I\u2019m putting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003ETo an earlier point the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations made about the mischief that he is trying to contend with, or the interference\u2014the likes of a marine farm was the example he gave. A marine farm should not be a thing that interrupts customary title. It is a commercial activity that may be permitted and may be consistent with it so long as it is by the consent of the iwi, but it is not an interruption. I wonder if the Minister could respond to that proposed amendment, which simply has the effect of making very clear that those interruptions I listed would not be grounds for substantial interruption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022718e2aa414bd4f1ca6ec1230f39680e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022718e2aa414bd4f1ca6ec1230f39680e6\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m speaking in support of the tabled amendment from my colleague Steve Abel. I tautoko the interruptions that he\u2019s listed and refer back to my previous examples of Whangarei-te-rerenga-par\u0101oa in the harbour and the lack of our M\u0101ori landowners that exist around the harbour now because of takings through the Public Works Act, the harbour board takings, and how\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c01ac3a1e8d4813b208cca660a8ec78\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can you just refer to the clause you\u2019re speaking to, please? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247e4cef4f701415f91367cb2b9ce14fc\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: The clause is clause 7, and the proposed amendment from Steve Abel is to new section 5(7)(b). He just read out previously the types of interruptions that M\u0101ori could actually suffer, which do happen and have happened, and we\u2019ve experienced it. We can see the lack of M\u0101ori footprint around some of these places, but it does not mean that we don\u2019t retain our ongoing connection\u2014cultural, spiritual, and practical\u2014to a place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EI used previously in my examples hauhake-tohor\u0101 [harvesting whales] and the ability to place r\u0101hui in places of significance, particularly around the harbour. When things go bang in the night or something happens in the harbour, ko te M\u0101ori e whakatikatika ana i \u0113nei mahi, e awhi ana i te hapori [it is M\u0101ori who are correcting such activities and embracing the community].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EThose are all demonstrations of both spiritual and also practical connections that we retain, despite not having our lands within our hands as iwi M\u0101ori because of the impacts of colonisation and loss of the foreshore and seabed\u2014the land abutting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EI do have an amendment that I would also like to speak to, because I was getting so excited\u2014thank you, Steve, for that great amendment that you proposed. It is my amendment No. 4, and I want to invite everyone to join me on page 6, in relation to clause 6. There was a new section in the amendment, which was section 9B(3)(b), and, specifically, section 9B(3)(b) is a sentence around Te Tiriti o Waitangi. What we have in this provision in my amendment is specifically about deleting that new section. My amendment No. 4 proposes to delete in clause 6 this new section specific to Te Tiriti o Waitangi because we already have it in the marine and coastal area (MACA) legislation of 2011, at section 7, and that is a better representation of how you can honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi in legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EThe proposal to insert this new section really is quite unprecedented in terms of the way in which there\u2019s a relegation of Te Tiriti o Waitangi within this legislation, because previously, in other bills, you see Te Tiriti o Waitangi sections. We have that within the 2011 legislation at section 7, which clearly articulates how the MACA takutai moana legislation in 2011 honoured Te Tiriti o Waitangi and demonstrated how the Crown will uphold its legislative obligations to tangata whenua and Te Tiriti. It is my proposal that we should delete this new section 9B(3)(b) in clause 6 because we should uphold and maintain the existing wording that we have in section 7 of the original legislation kia mana ai Te Tiriti o Waitangi [so that Te Tiriti o Waitangi is honoured].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EThe Waitangi Tribunal, in their report back on this issue, clearly articulated that there are breaches of Te Tiriti within this amendment with what is happening here. It is taking us too far back, and we\u2019ve come too far along in this journey of honouring Te Tiriti that Parliament cannot just legislate away its obligations to Te Tiriti as the matua relationship between te iwi M\u0101ori and the K\u0101wanatanga, underpinned by He Whakaputanga, 1835.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EMy amendment seeks to delete that new section and honour the original intention, which is in section 7 within the legislation. It\u2019s a beautiful piece of work. It really shows how the Government can and could, at their will, honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00226b17e8a5b74b4ac1a35f9571181e507f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b17e8a5b74b4ac1a35f9571181e507f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E Just briefly, in relation to Mr Steve Abel\u2019s amendment, which says that interruptions caused by the establishment of ports and other infrastructure without the group\u2019s consent, however that would be gained, wouldn\u2019t be into stopping customary marine title being granted. I\u2019d just invite people to imagine that if you have customary marine title in a spot where a port is and the ability to pass resource consents or not, then I think most New Zealanders could understand the difficulties that could pose for actually operating ports in this country, and so I won\u2019t be supporting that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022 data-id=\u002250a84065303d4d569906d658f88a71c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250a84065303d4d569906d658f88a71c6\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022177ed21bdc264cc598241ecfef43eab8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022177ed21bdc264cc598241ecfef43eab8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I think we are not quite there but I am alerting members, please, to come up with some original material. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022 data-id=\u002248c19be6c8a440c583028835c6db32f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248c19be6c8a440c583028835c6db32f5\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much for the opportunity to take another call. I have mentioned the use of occupation amendment. There\u2019s another amendment in my colleague Arena Williams\u2019 name which refers directly to clause 7 in Part 1, and it looks towards the removal under Part 1 of new section 57B in clause 7: \u201Creplace every instance of \u2018and occupation\u2019 with \u2018stewardship\u2019.\u201D I wondered if the Minister had given any thought to that word \u201Cstewardship\u201D. We\u2019ve spoken about occupation, but I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations on whether or not stewardship isn\u2019t something that he could consider with respect to making sure that this bill does work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EThe Minister spoke to the use and the ability to have ports, etc. I wonder if I can take the Minister to another place with respect to that, and that is around the substantial interruption test. I want to take him to the Far North, and there is a place up there called Waimahana, which is private land all the way down to the beach. It is a secluded bay and it is opened up by the locals because it is the safest place for people to put their boats into the water. They do that as a bit of a public good. They say that, well, everybody can use that particular private land and come across the private land down on to the beach to cast their boats into the water, because every other bay around it faces directly out to the open ocean, which makes it unsafe to cast their boats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EI wonder if in this particular part, new section 57B(c) in clause 7, which says that substantial interruption includes that it \u201Ccan be caused (without limiting paragraph (a)) by [the use and occupation carried out, or] an activity (including, without limitation, an activity that is or includes fishing or navigation) carried out\u2014\u201D. It\u2019s a question for the Minister. I know it\u2019s rather unique\u2014well, it\u2019s not unique, actually. There are lots of places around the country where you can do this, but this is specific because the land that leads up to that particular bay is private land, and I know that because my wh\u0101nau are part-owners in that particular space. So I want to just make sure that in the good, kind-hearted nature of the locals that open the opportunity for people to cast their boats: M\u0101ori, P\u0101keh\u0101, or anyone, actually\u2014mostly people from outside. I ask whether in doing so, they now, under this legislation, have hindered their opportunity to show the meaning of a substantial interruption moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003ELike I say, I know it\u2019s a rather unique case in terms of this particular place, but I know it\u2019s not unique around the country. That\u2019s my question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022 data-id=\u00227a0dc3023fae46a2880576e809b2f52b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a0dc3023fae46a2880576e809b2f52b\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Taking your guidance, I want to quickly bring the Minister to a number of questions that I have had in this part, which relate to his amendments on his Amendment Paper 380. I\u2019m on page 14, and this is about the new Schedule 1AA and the transitional provisions that apply to cases, and I\u2019m going to ask him about the cases that have been heard and that will need to be reheard since consideration of these changes began.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EThe Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations knows, because we were discussing this before dinner, that I am particularly interested in Ruapuke Island. That is, I think, the case that will be top of his list of cases where there is some clarity around that still meeting the test of a higher test. What we\u2019re considering there is: what does the process look like for a case where it will probably meet the new test?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EI want to ask him first in respect of his change to the interim period, which at new clause 4 in new Schedule 1AA says, \u201CCertain CMT decisions made in interim period,\u201D\u2014so, say, Ruapuke\u2014\u201Cand related agreements and orders made, have no legal effect and never have had legal effect\u201D; what does that mean for the cases where other decisions have been made in reliance upon them, and has the Minister had advice about what decisions may have been made in reliance upon them? For example, customary marine area rights give rise to the ability for those people who are said to have those rights to participate in consultative processes that councils run around resource consent. That\u2019s one sort of set of rights that you\u2019re enabled to have. Those already exist in these cases, so I\u2019m asking the Minister whether that phrase \u201Cas if they had no legal effect\u201D in fact means that none of the decisions have legal effect and didn\u2019t happen. Can councils rely on the consultations that they have used, or do they have to act as if any records that were created, any evidence that was created, in fact do not exist? Is that what the Minister is trying to create there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EI also want to ask in respect of things like taonga t\u016Bturu which are discovered in these areas. For example, in Treaty settlements, it is well understood the process for how taonga that are discovered in an area will then be notified to, and then a process worked through with, the Ministry for Culture and Heritage\u2014those people who have rights in those areas to determine, in fact, what iwi or hap\u016B has a relationship to that taonga because of their occupation of the land. Under a customary marine title finding of rights, these also exist. We\u2019re talking here about the foreshore and seabed, and so, for many of these areas, they are traditional burial sites. It is common for sand dunes and other coastal areas, like caves, to be used for the storage of not only taonga but also k\u014Diwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EI\u2019m asking the Minister here that for those rights that have been recognised through a customary marine title process that now purport to be extinguished by his amendment on page 16, are the arrangements that have been entered into by the Crown to give effect to those rights in the arrangements to do with taonga t\u016Bturu or k\u014Diwi\u2014what is the effect of those? Do consultations, evidence-gathering exercises, exercises in good faith, and negotiations between landowners or council have to be struck out? Is that the intention of the words \u201Cnever have had legal effect\u201D\u2014what are we trying to get to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223de6e6d6d57d40b483b9b558769ce301\u0022\u003EI guess the question is what is the mischief here: is it the intention that once these have been retried, if those consultative processes and other arrangements that existed are retried and we have once again the recognition of the rights of the wh\u0101nau of Ruapuke in their coastal marine area at Ruapuke Island, is it then that those other legal arrangements that were entered into from the date of the court finding are to now once again have effect? If those rights are reconfirmed as existing\u2014which is what he said to me before the dinner break; he said that they wouldn\u2019t go back to the beginning, but would have to be reheard\u2014does he mean, then, that those can be re-established quickly, or is it that the rights that existed between the court\u2019s decision and now will never have existed, and how far does that go? Does that go to evidence? Does that go to consultative processes? Does it go to relationship agreements? Does it go to memorandums of understanding? How far is he intending to cast the net of it having no legal effect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00228093a1547be843f0874c253605e1869a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228093a1547be843f0874c253605e1869a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E Just in relation to that question, when this policy to overturn the Court of Appeal decision was announced originally in July 2024, the Government signalled, of course, right at that point that we would seek to have the legislation take effect from that point. Any arrangements that have been entered into would have been done in the knowledge that there was a risk that this legislation would pass and that the legislation would require those examples to be heard again under the new test. I think everybody would have gone into it with eyes wide open.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022 data-id=\u00223e4f09e6e2044a96928113df0acbdb5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e4f09e6e2044a96928113df0acbdb5f\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d82cd07785694633bb2f6d9e11021434\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d82cd07785694633bb2f6d9e11021434\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I think we\u2019re very, very close, and it doesn\u2019t matter how loud you shout at me\u2014I can still hear there are people wanting calls. But I am, even in the short time I\u2019ve been here, hearing repetition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022 data-id=\u002231cb8706de35487780da4cd093ba2858\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231cb8706de35487780da4cd093ba2858\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I hear your advice against repetition, and I assure you that this is not a repetitive point. I\u2019m looking at clause 10, \u201CSection 106 amended (Burden of proof)\u201D. The Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations made a point in his earlier responses that section 106(3) states that unless there is evidence to the contrary, non-extinguishment of customary interests will be assumed. But when comparing the current section 106 with the amendment, it is evident that while, legally, non-extinguishment remains assumed, the practical effect of the amendment does, in fact, shift the burden of proof on to M\u0101ori applicants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EIt stipulates that applicants must prove that they have \u201Chad exclusive use and occupation\u201D over the land since the application period \u201Cwithout substantial interruption,\u201D since substantial interruption can include an extinguishment of title. The new section 106(2), in effect, mandates that the applicants have to prove that their customary interests have never been extinguished as to what would amount to a substantial interruption. Therefore, the practical effect of this amendment is that non-extinguishment is no longer presumed and is something that applicants must now prove. If it is genuinely the intent of the Minister to ensure that unless there is evidence to the contrary, non-extinguishment of customary interests will be assumed, then this current wording doesn\u2019t achieve that intention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EI have a proposed amendment\u2014my tabled amendment No. 9\u2014that in clause 10,we replace the new section 106(2) with new wording saying that \u201Cin meeting the burden of proof, applicant groups may rely on any of the following: oral histories; p\u016Br\u0101kau and traditional narratives; whakapapa and genealogical evidence; evidence of tikanga and customary practices; expert evidence from kaum\u0101tua, cultural practitioners, and historians; archaeological, environmental, and anthropological evidence; historical records, including Crown records, even where incomplete or created without M\u0101ori input; evidence of the group\u2019s continuous identity in connection with the area; or any other evidence the court considers probative. The court cannot do any of the following: require a higher standard of proof than would apply to equivalent common law property claims, discount evidence solely because it is oral rather than written, or discount evidence because it does not conform to traditional common law concepts of property or occupation, nor require proof of continuous physical occupation where such occupation was impractical, inconsistent with tikanga, or prevented by the Crown\u2019s actions; nor place the burden on applicants to disprove every possible interruption. The court must account for the following: the historical context of Crown colonisation and its impacts on M\u0101ori use of marine and coastal area\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022534126001bb7418e807762d35eff9b7f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me, can I just point out to the member that this amendment has been tabled. You do not need to read the entire script.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022134129d45f7b428e9886cf18c2a4be5a\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Sure\u2014no, that\u2019s a fair point. I won\u2019t read it any further. But I simply want to put it to the Minister that for the clarification of the burden of proof requirements, this amendment would make it clear\u2014if it is genuinely the intent of the Government\u2014to ensure that the default is non-extinguishment of customary interests. This amendment would make that vastly clearer and would put the burden of proof on the Crown to prove extinguishment, rather than on iwi to prove customary title. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022 data-id=\u00222fd7df727d664889a641871f7003d4e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fd7df727d664889a641871f7003d4e2\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002278d35b4c7c02499d8f8cf5e48479b719\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u002220021f1450464cebb1b68d7b249a0dee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220021f1450464cebb1b68d7b249a0dee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that H\u016Bhana Lyndon\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 380 to clause 6, replacing new section 9B(3), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002229ee0c7a30d641dabb8af85ee646aec0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u00223560ca1212894fad9961385759a388ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223560ca1212894fad9961385759a388ed\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 380 to clause 6, deleting new section 9B(3)(a), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221f88991761c7495d8fe2993ba3574187\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u002266b9d40a94d04ca0beeee9bf2463d21d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266b9d40a94d04ca0beeee9bf2463d21d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that H\u016Bhana Lyndon\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 380 to clause 6, deleting new section 9B(3)(b), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228873726d2c7049b0a97ba25fec9d80be\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022200e973ae88d4c6a881fa7f9a1888833\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022200e973ae88d4c6a881fa7f9a1888833\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 380 to clause 6, inserting new section 9BA, is out of order as being inconsistent with the principles and objects of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EThe question is that H\u016Bhana Lyndon\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 380 to clause 7, replacing new section 57A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222e812c80487045b2bd56a19b54b55521\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u002279b5e389fec44767870f292eaa728945\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279b5e389fec44767870f292eaa728945\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 380 to clause 7, inserting new section 57AA, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228d12e9126f13449e8e191ee761714dbf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a45aff20f321489b95d0a8ff977f2e20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a45aff20f321489b95d0a8ff977f2e20\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that H\u016Bhana Lyndon\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 380, to delete clause 8(1), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221c5e34ba6bea48aead0c7c943829e897\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd37ca380f3e4653980dd7b44e7e3593\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd37ca380f3e4653980dd7b44e7e3593\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 380 to clause 8, replacing new subsection (1A) of section 58, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224e604fda10c14ccb9925e43d33c8c6fe\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022bde2aef3037b4383aa3180f6d3d3de71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bde2aef3037b4383aa3180f6d3d3de71\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 380, inserting new clause 9A, new section 59A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002236520c9552f34129b2c064656748a606\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e03309c6fa914a588d0023ee95d9366f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e03309c6fa914a588d0023ee95d9366f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 380 to clause 10, replacing new section 106(2), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ee658f18289249ba9b3e7577238f55aa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022efd4b876624e484fbc80562faa90f4dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efd4b876624e484fbc80562faa90f4dd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 380 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229f2c01285cf3441abfc23e7a75cba6ea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f39231e2d62d43328550aed6e132b00c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f39231e2d62d43328550aed6e132b00c\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chairperson. I\u2019m just seeking clarification from the Chair. We\u2019ve just voted on Amendment Paper 380 in the Minister\u2019s name, and the closure motion was a closure motion to close the question on the debate on Part 1. Is that right, because in this Amendment Paper, where there\u2019s still a Part 2 that\u2019s yet to be\u2014I\u2019m just wondering if that\u2019s all closed now, and whether or not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u002289e49288201744d4b2eee7fe161097f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289e49288201744d4b2eee7fe161097f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no, it\u2019s only the parts that apply to Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e754e91afc22474dac547028bc05f89d\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: OK\u2014perfect. Thank you, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222818115c3da543308e45c8cfd4b885e4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No problem, and can I just ask members that when you are casting your vote, can you just please say whether you are in favour or opposed. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EThe Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4(2), recital (5), is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4(2), after recital (5), is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4(2) is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4(2), new subsection (5), deleting the words after \u201Crecognition of customary marine title\u201D, is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4(2), new subsection (5), deleting the words \u201Cof those provisions changed the effect that Parliament intends them to have, and\u201D, is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4(2), new subsection (5), replacing \u201CParliament\u201D with \u201CHobson\u2019s Pledge\u201D, is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4(2), new subsection (5), replacing \u201CParliament\u201D with \u201Cthis National Government\u201D, is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 two tabled amendments to clause 5, new definition of \u201CCMT Amendment Act\u201D, are out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, new definition of \u201CCMT amendments\u201D, is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting a definition of \u201Ctikanga M\u0101ori\u201D, is out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 6, new section 9A(1)(a), inserting words after \u201Csubstantial interruption\u201D, is out of order as being merely an attempt to criticise the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EThe Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 6, replacing new section 9A(1), is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 6, new section 9A(2), replacing \u201Cspecified\u201D with \u201Cmay be those noted\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002242e2f4ef357c47468e6012e9fb09b85d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u002227bedd3bfa014be3a3d5625714fe102f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227bedd3bfa014be3a3d5625714fe102f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 6, section 9A, to insert new subsection (3), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c19f06584d064e11bf69c5aee3d7a848\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228cd8f4eb918e4c8686e2464787d84260\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E: T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 6 deleting new section 9A(3), (4), and (5) is out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u002258af2ef4e2ad4102b24e62907b424ab7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258af2ef4e2ad4102b24e62907b424ab7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a95b8bf5fc5647b69e79a8e8c25a79f1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 6, new section 9B(2) replacing the words after \u201Cpromotes\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022401598b3924548f993ecf33de24d04ef\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022baf1b8c6d68841cfaae665764f5e4dfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022baf1b8c6d68841cfaae665764f5e4dfb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 6 replacing new section 9B(3) is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 6 replacing new section 9B(3) is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EThe question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 6, inserting new section 9D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a5f02690448740ba879eb28eccc04edc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef118570a1f7490abba7a0f70499f635\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef118570a1f7490abba7a0f70499f635\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, replacing new section 57A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002245e1b475f1af4bf7afa0dc580650a8c3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c200b2a9017243e7b4567b584cf090f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c200b2a9017243e7b4567b584cf090f6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7 replacing new section 57A(3) is out of order as being inconsistent with the principles and objects of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7, new section 57B, replacing every instance of \u201Cand occupation\u201D with \u201Cand stewardship\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022540462586bce4169a21284352d62fd64\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1e5699d59b54e708f8d8673fb4b5744\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1e5699d59b54e708f8d8673fb4b5744\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7, new section 57B, deleting every instance of \u201Cand occupation\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cd8983e6b49a44f9af449b2a5d329814\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8100f9f28a1471faf09d2f3647f0a43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8100f9f28a1471faf09d2f3647f0a43\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7 replacing new section 57B is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EThe Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7 replacing new section 57B is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to replace clause 8 is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 8, new subsection (1A) of section 58, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220e90f8ade61c40009c81232d43346434\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221b8b5b4e6d314de398b3553567c4fa3b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 8, new subsection (1A) of section 58, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff53c1620473487ca26797c656ad0537\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff53c1620473487ca26797c656ad0537\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002256d9936f4e7d44c282af3845a8420939\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 8, to delete new subsection (5)(b), be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u00227cf4fa02759f41ffa8268e3eae0bd43e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cf4fa02759f41ffa8268e3eae0bd43e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022baa8f798204c4e259ce15caa06e5b971\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 10, new section 106(2), to delete the words \u201Cand occupation\u201D, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022462ed1102846456ea09327a3f06aa89f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022462ed1102846456ea09327a3f06aa89f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u00223dcea3d421b744a999c52e27eec112d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dcea3d421b744a999c52e27eec112d3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 10 inserting new section 106(2A) is out of order as being inconsistent with the principles and objects of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002276eb8dff91b248f38123fbffc4b99b88\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc7dddda53774a93a6b945fd261cb1ed\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendment to Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act 2011: aspects of law altered by CMT Amendment Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002264978a220a0145839a68be76ef775c19\u0022\u003EAmendment to Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act 2011: aspects of law altered by CMT Amendment Act\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u002241850dbf0343404992c00bf89c0a2c3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241850dbf0343404992c00bf89c0a2c3e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 11A and 12, \u201C\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u00226c7110e35f384007a277eb6b72c0fa97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c7110e35f384007a277eb6b72c0fa97\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to talk about this because this is a really strange legislative device; it\u2019s entirely descriptive and it doesn\u2019t appear to actually legislate at all. First of all, we\u2019ve got clause 11A which tells you something which you don\u2019t need to know: \u201CThis Part amends the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act 2011.\u201D Well, that\u2019s what the whole thing does and that\u2019s what Part 1 does. Why we need that, I don\u2019t know. I mean, the Parliamentary Counsel Office must be tearing their hair out. Then, we come to a new section 59A, which basically says\u2014we\u2019ve done Part 1, and 59A says, \u201CAnd here\u2019s what Part 1 did.\u201D Now, I know that there\u2019s overview provisions which sometimes are useful navigational tools, but this is kind of a hopeful \u201CThis is what we\u2019ve actually achieved.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EI guess my question for the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations is: what does this section achieve that no other section in this piece of legislation hasn\u2019t already achieved? If we\u2019re trying to draft easy-to-understand, plain English, easy-to-navigate legislation, hasn\u2019t this done exactly the opposite?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EThen if we turn the page and we come to new section 59B, this is actually much more difficult, because what it does is it says \u201CHere are examples of judgments altered and overridden.\u201D It gives you a list, in fact names\u2014which is quite unusual\u2014names, actual cases which it overrules. There are cases where that does happen, I remember a sex offenders register case where it said, \u201CThis legislation applies to all of the law except this one case\u201D because of the anti-retrospectivity rule. But my question here is: where you see examples in legislation, it\u2019s a kind of interpretive convention that examples are not the rules themselves. It says \u201Cfor example\u201D, but that\u2019s not part of the legislation, not part of the kind of heavy lifting that changes the law. It\u2019s just a description of how the drafter thinks the rule will work in practice, to assist the reader. Here we\u2019ve got examples\u2014and it\u2019s really strange, because it doesn\u2019t say \u201Chere is an exhaustive\u201D; if it said, \u201Cand these cases are no longer of any effect\u201D, then that would be doing legislative work, but what it says is \u201Chere\u2019s some examples\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003ENot only does it use the kind of less than legislative term\u2014it doesn\u2019t say \u201Cthese are overridden\u201D\u2014it says \u201Chere\u2019s an example of what might be the case\u201D, but also it\u2019s a non-exhaustive list. It\u2019s the worst of all possible worlds, as you might not have read in Candide, but it just doesn\u2019t seem to make any sense because it is a closed set, if you like. The list of cases which are no longer good law is not infinite; they are able to be listed. If that\u2019s what the Minister wanted to do, then he should have listed them. To simply say \u201COh, for example, here\u2019s a few we found.\u201D is actually either lazy or misleading. I guess my primary question is: Part 2, what\u2019s the point? If these cases are overruled, then they\u2019re overruled and set aside by this legislation and you don\u2019t have to name them. If you\u2019re going to list them in a non-exhaustive way, it\u2019s actually quite misleading. People will look at this and think, \u201CWell, my case isn\u2019t on there, so it must still be in force.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EThen as for a section which says, \u201CHere\u2019s what we\u2019ve done.\u201D\u2014I mean, again, what\u2019s the point? Is this his own idea or is this his officials? I\u2019m pretty sure that a good parliamentary counsel\u2014and we have excellent parliamentary counsel in this Parliament\u2014would not have advised this messy, duplicate, verbose, and largely redundant drafting. If the Minister could explain what he\u2019s trying to achieve by Part 2, that would be appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022 data-id=\u00224f6bd1947c3c48cab44388c644b96afd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f6bd1947c3c48cab44388c644b96afd\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Supporting my colleague, I think he makes some very good points. My contribution to this particular part is quite clear. It asks a very specific question about the announcement that the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations made with respect to the moves that he\u2019s making to amend this particular legislation through this bill, which is that at the end of the Schedule, inserting New Schedule 1AA, it does say in there at new clause 6, \u201CNo entitlement to compensation\u201D, \u201CA person is not entitled to compensation of any kind on account of the operation of the CMT amendments.\u201D, which begs the question, once again: does that only apply to the ones that are listed here? Those are the questions that Dr Webb has made quite clear to the Minister. Who else does that or does that not apply to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EAlso, to the announcement that the Minister said they are setting aside $15 million\u2014to do exactly what? What we\u2019ve seen here is that there are multiple cases listed here in Part 2 that do a couple of things. One is that it says, \u201CHere\u2019s a list of those where it\u2019s been overridden.\u201D, and the other one is \u201CHere\u2019s a list of those judgments that have been altered.\u201D I thought the actual matter that we\u2019re debating, as to Mr Webb\u2019s point, is, well, Part 2 actually seems moot then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll leave those questions there, with respect to any compensation or entitlement to compensation, given they listed the cases there in Part 2, and then just a bit of clarity around the Minister\u2019s announcement around the $15 million they\u2019re setting aside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d24536ee15774c058d20e7c545760a2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d24536ee15774c058d20e7c545760a2e\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Speaking to Part 2, new section 59A. Now, I have a tabled amendment, and I just want to check that I\u2019ve got this correct with the Clerk, if I may. My tabled amendment paper No. 12, which is a proposed amendment to Amendment Paper 380. I believe I may have been advised to propose this for a different part. Sorry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022876cc248e8ce4ab9a5d94426b0f1bc07\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014can you please speak into your microphone, Mr Abel. I\u2019m not sure if you\u2019re talking to me or yourself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d282cf539aac4f4389b84b4d9d37daac\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, pardon me, Madam Chair. No, no\u2014well, I\u2019m talking to you, with a recognition that I\u2019m seeking clarification on advice that I received from the Clerk, that my tabled amendment\u2014No. 12\u2014a proposed amendment to Amendment Paper 380, which I had suggested that we insert a new section at new section 59A, \u201CRecognition of tikanga evidence\u201D that perhaps should have belonged in another part of legislation. I can\u2019t ask a direct question to the Clerk, obviously, so I\u2019ll speak to my amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s to do with tikanga evidence, and it clarifies that tikanga-based evidence may take diverse forms and must be respected in its own terms, rather than being judged against or limited by a Western legal framework. It ensures the unique worldview of te ao M\u0101ori and appropriately considered, particularly in relation to mana, kaitiakitanga, inter-group relationships, and spiritual, cultural connections to the Takutai Moana. It requires the court to recognise tikanga as evidence and sets out the nature and forms of the evidence that may take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EIt would be inserted as a new section 59A\u2014I won\u2019t read the whole thing, as you had advised me earlier, Madam Chair, but just to touch on a couple of the key wordings, in recognition of tikanga evidence\u2014\u201CIn determining where the customary marine title exists in a specified area of the common marine and coastal area, the court must do the following, where relevant: among other things, not require tikanga to conform to traditional common law legal concepts; and where evidence of tikanga, in relation to the following, is directly relevant to determining whether customary marine title exists, authority and mana over relevant areas, resource management, kaitiakitanga, relationships between groups, resolution of disputes, and spiritual and cultural connections. And must recognise that mighty relationships with the common marine and coastal area are holistic and encompass both physical and metaphysical dimensions.\u201D I won\u2019t read the rest of it, but the essence of it is that it takes into account tikanga as evidence and sets out the nature and forms that that evidence may take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EIf we are to have a seriously plural legal system, one that takes account of the fact that we have, over the course of time and jurisprudence, got a blending of tikanga and common law as the foundation of our legal system in this country, then we need to enshrine and recognise that tikanga has, at least, the same standing as common law, and that it must not meet the test of common law. It has its own standing, as affirmed and confirmed by Te Tiriti o Waitangi. This is a concept that is not peculiar to other jurisdictions grappling with how to recognise Aboriginal or native title, such as Canada and Australia\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a2a08ff31b24d7e85a6edcb8dfe5d83\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member. It\u2019s taken me a while to find the reference that you\u2019re referring to, so you\u2019re talking to Amendment Paper 380 to clause 10\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a81c5da4d234dfc98dab7eff1ce9e60\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bb45ba1cabe41409326c72b5b27639d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which was voted on in Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e52700adc23d42538b9a3d29537fbf13\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK. That was where it got shifted to, is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdd8ad2810794fa7a54e86169ba2ffe2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022828fc9cefa7e4574914f501c75bf624e\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I originally proposed it as being in Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221437ea6a58c34a868445f5c4082b2b5c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We have already voted on your amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ae386f92e424798965926ff99fcc89d\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: OK\u2014pardon me. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022 data-id=\u00223c9cfc76cd2344c583cd0df3c4b5cd23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c9cfc76cd2344c583cd0df3c4b5cd23\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228a6886dd32384a6e99f370be1369b8d0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6c8d97eca5c4cc6beafba4cd9bb02da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6c8d97eca5c4cc6beafba4cd9bb02da\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Amendment Paper 380 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e97c4bb729644dff97c4c4bba636cf7a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u002258d505fa42a84388a1cd766a1ab485b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258d505fa42a84388a1cd766a1ab485b3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 12, deleting new section 59B, is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment inserting new Part 2A to establish a M\u0101ori Takutai Authority is out of order as outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222e8b51296440438fb0c1f6424cb06be8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u00221c1089e7e544465bb50b9667e51cb7e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c1089e7e544465bb50b9667e51cb7e4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to questions on the Schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EThe question is that Steve Abel\u2019s tabled amendment to Amendment Paper 380 to the Schedule, replacing new clause 2, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c2c75502cef74be187415847393f3f01\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u00222b6b284b3b5040948473840539765e78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b6b284b3b5040948473840539765e78\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to the Schedule set out on Amendment Paper 380 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002219c135ff97d74781a55ed1cbcd3073e2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u00222704747bfdd14166afc9426829c65cee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222704747bfdd14166afc9426829c65cee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to the Schedule, inserting new clause 7, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022479d76d447ad4b6cbbde24683f5e0765\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ff178d51133749b684c09ff459b652dd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Schedule as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221183f602b13e4ed5a65736c4b13db8fb\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u00223a11ade075af4e0cb3b276e828348ece\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a11ade075af4e0cb3b276e828348ece\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2: \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1b3a15a56ac44a6a54654b65595ce7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1b3a15a56ac44a6a54654b65595ce7c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do have a few thoughts about what this bill should be called, because I know it does amend the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act. It doesn\u2019t really tell you what it does, because one of the most pernicious parts of this bill is the fact that there are litigants who have had their day in court, who have presented their evidence, made their legal submissions, paid their bills, and had a decision made in their favour. In fact, they are now to be stripped of the benefits of that litigation retrospectively. The law has been changed not just to make it harder for future litigants but to strip people who have had their day in court and won their case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EIf you think about that, I don\u2019t know what kind of Government would do that. I\u2019m surprised, in particular. that New Zealand First is part of that, because they\u2019ve got a pretty good reputation for sticking up for people who have had their day in court and I hope that they\u2019ll look closely at this. Maybe they\u2019re going to change their mind on this at third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got a little amendment in there and it suggests that this bill should be called the \u201CRetrospective Changing of the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) (Customary Marine Title) Amendment Act\u201D, because I think it\u2019s only fair that you call it what it is. It is a perfectly accurate description. It\u2019s not what the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations might like to call it. It\u2019s a shameful day for the rule of law when we let people go to court and win, and then when we don\u2019t like what they\u2019ve won, we take it off them. That is the kind of behaviour you\u2019d expect from somewhere with a weak democracy that doesn\u2019t respect the rule of law. That\u2019s what we\u2019ve got, so let\u2019s call it what it is. I don\u2019t think this amendment can be ruled out of order for being critical because it\u2019s simply descriptive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EPerhaps if you don\u2019t like that\u2014and you could always merge these two together\u2014I\u2019d be happy to quickly slap down another amendment. The other thing that this does, and it\u2019s allied to it, is it takes away rights which have been conferred. These are property rights. These people, these hap\u016B and iwi that have won their cases, have had rights recognised, and when this bill according to the commencement clause comes into force, those rights will be no longer extant. That is to say they will be taken away; or to put it another way: they\u2019ll be confiscated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EThey are being deprived, stripped of their rights and we should say that. It should really be called, just like in the old days, just like in the 1860s and 1870s and 1880s, at least the legislation there was called what it was: the Tohunga Suppression Act or the land confiscation Act. Let\u2019s call it: this Act is the \u201CConfiscation of the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) (Customary Marine Title) Amendment Act\u201D, because that\u2019s what it does: it confiscates. These are property rights\u2014property rights that the ACT Party says it stands for and then takes them away. No compensation; no worries about that at all. Let\u2019s be a little bit more honest about what we call these bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EWe could, of course, call it the \u201CHobson\u2019s Pledge Memorial Bill\u201D because that\u2019s really where these politics come from: the politics of attacking M\u0101ori simply for looking for the recognition of the rights that they have historically exercised. Rights which may have been interfered with over the years by Governments and local bodies and other people, but rights which have persisted and can be shown to have been extant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b78723aefdc74b11a47482993ca56a74\u0022\u003EThe court\u2014the Court of Appeal but the Supreme Court\u2014has recognised that the way in which those rights are proved is nuanced; it\u2019s not straightforward, but there\u2019s a legal process and it\u2019s robust. That was the deal struck some years ago in 2011, and it\u2019s a deal that this Government is breaking. Maybe we should call it the \u201CBroken Promises (Takutai Moana) Act\u201D as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u00227266ea603f354500b84269e01741c1fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227266ea603f354500b84269e01741c1fc\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to thank the member for his suggestions for titles, but I think we\u2019ll stick with the current one which is the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) (Customary Marine Title) Amendment Bill. That is because that is what it does. It does not break any deals; it is set out in its goal to find that balance between enabling M\u0101ori to establish customary marine rights and title, while also recognising the wide interests that all New Zealanders have in the marine and coastal space. It seeks not to take away rights\u2014nobody will wake up tomorrow with less ability to enjoy the coastal area or have a connection with it. It is in relation to those cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022 data-id=\u00229792c46938a44c8994f5b450083689b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229792c46938a44c8994f5b450083689b0\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair. I have two amendments that I\u2019d like to propose in this part of naming and commencement. I think we do, as my colleague\u2019s already outlined, need to address the truth of what this legislation is, which is pure raupatu. My proposal for an amendment to the name is to name it what it is: \u201CTe Pire Raupatu Takutai Moana\u201D. The name is reflective of what it\u2019s going to do, because the thresholds being set and the hoops that our people will need to jump through, effectively, sees the raupatu of our customary M\u0101ori rights to the takutai moana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EFurther to that, I have an additional name and suggestion, which I think is actually something that is practical. It reflects actually what\u2019s going to happen on the ground. While some in New Zealand will be entitled to quiet enjoyment of the takutai moana and protection of their private property rights, M\u0101ori don\u2019t get the same. I propose a name amendment of the \u201CNo Entitlement to Compensation for M\u0101ori Act\u201D, because, ultimately, our people will not be eligible for compensation for the lost time, for the opportunity cost, for the years of preparation and going through the hearings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EMay I bring to the committee the names of the seven groups that are going to be impacted, so that you might get an awareness of the work that they have put into the process thus far. Now, this t\u0101hae legislation is ripping out the opportunity for them to confirm, in concrete, their customary rights to the takutai moana. Let\u2019s go to Wairarapa. Wairarapa had customary marine title (CMT) granted in interim judgment in December 2024. That\u2019s a wonderful win. The carpet is wiped out for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EAotea Harbour was largely uncontested for Ng\u0101ti Te Wehi and Ng\u0101ti Whakamarurangi and Waikato-Tainui, and they shared a CMT granted\u2014there was a shared CMT because, as M\u0101ori, we can share, and we are so patient and gracious in the way in which we share our spaces with all New Zealand and ourselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EThen if we go to the K\u0101piti Coast where we have Mua\u016Bpoko, we have Ng\u0101ti Tamarangi, we have Te \u0100tiawa ki Whakarongotai, Te Wh\u0101nau Tima, Ng\u0101ti Apa, and Ng\u0101ti Raukawa ki te Tonga. Again, they went through a hearings process in good faith, jumping through the hoops of the Crown in 2024, and the CMT was granted in June 2025. These are groups that have gone through the hoops of the Government that have been set.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EMy own people in Whangareitererengapar\u0101oa have completed their hearings. They have been waiting for the outcome and the judgment, and yet they will be impacted by the \u201CNo Entitlement to Compensation\u201D legislation that we are seeing coming through the House right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EThe tribes of Whangarei-tererenga-par\u0101oa, Patuharakeke, Ng\u0101ti Kahu o Torongare, Te Parawhau, Ng\u0101ti Wai, Ng\u0101ti T\u016B, Te Waiariki. All of these groups, as well as other wh\u0101nau, who have very important rights will have their judgments null and void, so they will not be entitled to any compensation for the loss of time, for the loss of opportunity, and for the sweat and tears that they have put into their hearings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s go to Ng\u0101 P\u014Dtiki. Ng\u0101 P\u014Dtiki Ng\u0101 Hap\u016B o Te Moutere o Motiti; Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101ti Whakahemo; Te T\u0101wharau o Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga; Ng\u0101ti He, te uri, te hap\u016B [the kin, the subtribes]. There\u2019s heaps of wh\u0101nau. Ruapuke Island\u2014we\u2019ve heard about in this Chamber tonight. These are wh\u0101nau who have gone through the system. They have stood up all of their evidence, they\u2019ve completed their hearings, they\u2019ve combined their efforts. They also have a recognised, shared CMT. See, with this raupatu legislation that\u2019s coming through the House, they will not be able to get entitlement, when any type of CMT that they had is now going to be ripped away from them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EI think that my two names offered, the \u201CPire Raupatu Takutai Moana\u201D and the \u201CNo Entitlement to Compensation to te Iwi M\u0101ori,\u201D are fair and reasonable considering the impact that this legislation will have on our people now and moving forward. And may I recommend that commencement is in October 2026. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022 data-id=\u00221a7c49297f2e4b23b25e073528e7b781\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a7c49297f2e4b23b25e073528e7b781\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I do support the amendments being proposed by my colleagues about a name that better reflects what this bill does, but I want to speak to the commencement date and, in particular, draw the attention of the committee to the fact that the land march led by Dame Whina Cooper arrived here at Parliament on this day 50 years ago. I also want to mention to the committee and bring to the committee\u2019s attention that this month, on 28 October, 190 years ago, He Whakaputanga was signed by our ancestors across this country\u2014in particular, in Te Tai Tokerau\u2014which continues to reassert our sovereignty. It is commonly known as the declaration of independence 1835.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EThose are significant dates, and why I bring those dates to the attention of this committee is on what would normally be a time for us to commemorate, reflect, and also strategise for the moves forward, we are now passing a piece of legislation which grants, after Royal assent, a bill that is going to continue to strip the rights of M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275c91eb6ccf24d019842f5b5d510d37d\u0022\u003EJust another reminder to the members in this committee that today marks the 50-year anniversary since our tupuna Dame Whina Cooper led the march from the Far North here to Wellington. This month also recognises the 190-year commemoration of the signing of the declaration of independence on 28 October. I want those dates to sink in as this bill continues to pass in the committee. When I look towards the commencement of this particular bill, let it be another stain on the record of this committee and the treatment of the M\u0101ori people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba2a3462c0864802840b811b758935fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba2a3462c0864802840b811b758935fc\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019d like to thank the member for his history lesson. I\u2019ll give him another date, which is it is now coming up to 21 years since the Labour Government, in 2004, passed the foreshore and seabed legislation that took the coastal area for the Crown. This Act that we\u2019re amending at the moment\u2014the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act\u2014was an agreement between the National Party and the M\u0101ori Party in 2011, to come up with a process by which M\u0101ori could establish their customary rights to the foreshore and seabed area\u2014a significant advance. It was based on a recognition that we were balancing two things: customary rights and, also, the expectation of all New Zealanders living in a modern democracy to have a say and an interest in what goes on in the coastal area that surrounds the entire nation. The entire nation is girt by sea, and all New Zealanders have an interest in what goes on in that coastal area. The Parliament set a high threshold, and that is what this amendment bill is seeking to re-establish, following a couple of court cases that went through. History is interesting, and we\u2019ve all got our observations to make on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022 data-id=\u002221a1b88745b34b74aeac3cc1feaa3591\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221a1b88745b34b74aeac3cc1feaa3591\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. I appreciate the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations mentioning the anniversary of the Foreshore and Seabed Act because it was one of my very suggestions for what this bill could rightly be called. It has the effect, as colleagues have alluded to, of being a repeat of the tawdry tradition of confiscation in this country that the Foreshore and Seabed Act was in 2004, and so it could rightly be called the \u201CForeshore and Seabed Act Resurrection Bill\u201D, the \u201CForeshore and Seabed Act Redux\u201D or \u201CRegurgitation\u201D. The \u201CZombie Foreshore and Seabed Act\u201D could be an appropriate name for it because it has the effect of being a confiscation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003ETo speak to two other very solid suggestions, one from Duncan Webb that mentioned confiscation, it could be called the \u201CMarine Confiscation Bill\u201D, and my colleague H\u016Bhana Lyndon used the term raupatu, but there\u2019s one other edition that could be rightly added to that: given the particularly egregious nature of the retrospective cancellation of those hard-fought battles by specific iwi, it should be called the \u201CRetrospective Raupatu Amendment Bill\u201D. That is a particularly nasty part of this bill. I mean, the whole thing\u2019s awful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EOne of the things the Minister has set out as the argument for this bill is that it is resuming the intent or clarifying the intent of Parliament, but we have heard over and again from people who were directly involved in the actual creation of that Act in 2011 that this does not correct the intent. In fact, it moves away from the intent of the bill. It certainly moves away from it in so far as it puts the burden of proof on iwi M\u0101ori and the onus on iwi M\u0101ori, rather than the onus being on the Crown to prove extinguishment, which was clearly articulated by the Minister at the time, Chris Finlayson, in that the onus had to be borne by the Crown to prove extinguishment; not that iwi M\u0101ori had to prove customary title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EI suggest another name for the bill could be the \u201CInvention of Imaginary Intent Bill\u201D because the Minister has created an intent from a previous Parliament for which there is no evidence. Speaking of physical evidence, Minister, where is your physical evidence or your Hansard evidence anywhere of the intent of the original bill to be what the Minister has done here? There is no evidence that has been brought to this House in this committee stage or at any stage of the select committee that confirms what the Minister keeps saying: that he\u2019s restoring the intent. It is the invention of an imaginary intent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233a8db41ad0c4278b7eb829406824bb5\u0022\u003EThis bill is a terrible passage in the history of Crown-M\u0101ori relations. It undoes the consensus that was achieved in 2011 across the parties in the House by a much more imaginative and enlightened National-led Government at the time, in coalition with Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. This Minister\u2019s Government is taking us backwards as a country, taking us back to the worst attitudes towards respectful relations with iwi M\u0101ori on the part of the Crown. It is k\u0101wanatanga k\u016Bpapa. It is a betrayal of that most vital relationship between iwi M\u0101ori, and the Crown. I hope, Minister, that you actually accept some of these titles as being more fitting titles for your nasty piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022 data-id=\u0022403a73a1944b41dabe78502085160c33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022403a73a1944b41dabe78502085160c33\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Chair. E te Minita, ka h\u0101ngai tonu aku k\u014Drero ki te t\u012Bmatanga r\u0101 an\u014D o t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 ture, k\u0101tahi ko te tapa ingoa ki runga ki a ia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E[To the Minister, my comments will relate to the commencement of this particular legislation, and will then give it a name.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EJust continuing my line of k\u014Drero, and with regard to the naming and commencement, I just want to reflect for the committee and everyone at home that the Crown has apologised for many of the historic breaches of Te Tiriti o Waitangi but seems incapable of applying it in the same manner today. This is the conundrum for te iwi M\u0101ori out there. How can we ever have any faith in a House and a system who apologises one day\u2014gives redress one day\u2014and then the next day does the same thing? What\u2019s your explanation for that, Minister? What have we got to tell the people, the M\u0101ori people out there who live all along that coast you mentioned as being girt by the moana? They live there; our people live there. They\u2019ve never seen a Government person there. You know who looks after that place while no one else is there? Us. Yet we get treated like this time and time and time again. Just a \u201Chere-we-go-again\u201D story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ETreaty settlements, you guys over there, if you don\u2019t know, they\u2019re only about 1.5 percent of the agreed value of the loss\u20141.5 percent\u2014and then this House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddff0c62f3504f149eae96ce42d32059\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Chair. We are on title and commencement\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee22ac6575bc4055b8d10117d26cf859\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m talking about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022443f23de4cbd464f91833e6c466c98c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297b17698815040f49cc049584e1b4a4e\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m not sure you are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1145514774547f9bd996a5d6c39b816\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, OK\u2014point taken. I mean, in the beginning he did speak in M\u0101ori and mention title and commencement. This part of the debate is used as a way to summarise a party\u2019s perspective; e h\u0101ngai ana ki te taitara me te w\u0101taka [it relates to the title and timeline]\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022332899404b05447583c28435a48c60f9\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Tika, tika tonu; kei te whakar\u0101popoto ahau i t\u0101 te iwi M\u0101ori tirohanga. [True, very true; I am summarising the perspective of the M\u0101ori people.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c15605e03612469caa9864b60d96e00b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: E h\u0101ngai ana ki te taitara me te w\u0101taka i t\u012Bmatahia te ture. [It relates to the title and commencement date of the legislation.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8e7747812174031af67f9c23b293f01\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222270fb3e529c4ae98f7a81bd1bf561a7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Ka pai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a7e9e8f31264cbebd5b4910b99eeb2f\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, e taku rangatira. [Thank you, chief.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ESo te iwi M\u0101ori are a magnanimous partner, generous to a fault. We should call this the \u201CHere We Go Again Foreshore and Seabed Act\u201D\u2014hey, our people will really get that. It\u2019s been 21 years: 21 years of pushing in courts, 21 years of doing the hard yards. Maybe we should call it the \u201C21 More Years Foreshore and Seabed Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EAs I think of people who have led the charge\u2014people who have led the charge; they\u2019re our uncles, aunties, kuia, koroua, who pushed and pushed and pushed and, as I said earlier, went and stood in front of a High Court judge, presented all of our evidence and mutunga iho, auare ake, e kore e whai take ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a te iwi k\u0101inga [in the end, what\u2019s the use, the statements of the home people will never have an effect]. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EKo t\u0113nei mea te raupatu he taonga ka tukuna iho e t\u0113nei Whare, ao te p\u014D, p\u014D te ao. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E[This thing known as confiscation is an inheritance bestowed by this House at all times.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EMy other name for the bill, Minister, would be the \u201CRaupatu Mutunga Kore Act\u201D [\u201CNever Ending Confiscation Act\u201D]\u2014raupatu mutunga kore [never ending confiscation]. Hanga p\u0113r\u0101 i t\u0101 Moana k\u014Drero m\u014D tana m\u0101tai i Te T\u0101h\u016B o te Ture i roto i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 whenua me t\u0113nei Whare, me tana k\u012B ake, ko t\u0101na r\u012Bpoata whakamutunga i tapaina ki te ingoa He T\u016Bkinotanga Mutunga Kore. Me p\u0113hea r\u0101 te iwi M\u0101ori? Me p\u0113hea r\u0101? Ahakoa o te nui o te kawe o te porot\u0113hi, te porot\u016B, te kawe r\u0101nei o ng\u0101 tikanga katoa, ng\u0101 k\u014Drero katoa ki mua ki te aroaro o ng\u0101 k\u014Dti, ka hoki mai ki t\u0113nei Whare he t\u016Bkino i t\u0113tahi r\u0101, he whakap\u0101ha i t\u0113tahi r\u0101, he t\u016Bkino i te r\u0101 whai muri mai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EE kore m\u0101tou e hinga; e kore m\u0101tou e hoki. Ko ahau n\u014D t\u0113tahi whakatipuranga n\u0101 r\u0101tou i whakarite, i \u0101ta whakangungu kia tae mai ki te tuku i \u0113nei k\u014Drero ki a koutou. Kia kaha, kia m\u0101ia, kia manawanui e te iwi M\u0101ori. Toit\u016B te takutai moana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E[It\u2019s like what Moana said about his review of the Ministry of Justice within this country and this House, and what he said\u2014his final report was titled A Never Ending Abuse. What are the M\u0101ori people to do? What are we to do? Despite the scale of protests carried out, or the conveying of all traditional practices and narratives before the courts, coming back to this House it is abuse one day, an apology on another day, and abuse the day after that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EWe will never fall; we will never just go home. I, myself, am from a generation who prepared and carefully trained to come here and give these messages to you. Be strong, be brave, be resilient, M\u0101ori people. Long live the foreshore and seabed.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022f69a4faf7dd14f8a848e51ce8219e674\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f69a4faf7dd14f8a848e51ce8219e674\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5b5415091474b89bc55c2fe88c0b88d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5b5415091474b89bc55c2fe88c0b88d\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. I\u2019d like to speak to the commencement date. The reason why I bring up the issue of the commencement date is that there is a lack of trust on this side of the House. There is a lack of trust that the machinery of Government is even ready to implement this amendment legislation. There is a lack of trust that this Government will resource the ability for claimants to be able to engage in the new system as it rolls out. Is the court ready for what is coming? The court has already demonstrated the struggle to hear the seven cases that have already gotten this far. I propose, as I did in my earlier kauwhau, October 2026 as a commencement date, to allow the system to catch up\u2014allow the system to catch up\u2014unless I\u2019m missing something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EIf the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations can put it on the table\u2014can he put it on the table and tell us that the system is ready, that there\u2019s a budget allocated, that the courts are going to be ready to stand up and hear these seven-plus, plus, plus, because there are grave concerns in terms of the ripples of impact that this legislation will have on M\u0101ori but also on an already stretched system as it is. The High Court is not an easy space to go into. The High Court has not been able to host enough of the hearings in a fast enough schedule; hence some of the claimants complain that they\u2019re not going to be heard till 2050. If you think about the seven that have already gone through the process over a number of years and all of their nawes and all of their takes [concerns], they\u2019re going to be full of issues, let alone all the rest of us as claimants who stand in line, waiting for a chance to get to the front of the line to the High Court. There is grave concern that this system is even ready for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EIt would be awesome to see what this Government actually has to tell us that this is going to roll out quickly, because I think the Government needs to allow the officials time. We need to allow the officials time and the court system to catch up, because they\u2019re already significantly behind, it\u2019s already a stretched workforce, and we already know there are budget cuts everywhere. Unless there\u2019s going to be some magical budget that will come out somewhere in the near future, I ain\u2019t seeing it and we ain\u2019t hearing about it. That\u2019s one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EMy proposal is October 2026 to allow the system to prepare itself. One year, I think, is feasible\u2014one year to allow the courts to tell us what is their plan, so they can hear not only the seven areas that have already gone through the process but what\u2019s their catch-up system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EI also want to remind those in the Chamber that there\u2019s a direct negotiations pathway also with the Crown\u2014and that\u2019s been a huge success! No, it hasn\u2019t. Nobody\u2019s bloody been successful in direct negotiations. Put it on the table and tell me who has been successful in direct negotiations with the Crown, because it don\u2019t happen. We have to go through the court. We have to litigate, we have to do our mapping, we\u2019ve got to find our oral traditional history, we\u2019ve got to get the technical researchers, and then we\u2019ve got to prepare our elders to stand and argue their cases before a High Court\u2014a High Court that is not made to hear our evidence. That\u2019s always been an issue. The Waitangi Tribunal is that place that hears our evidence. They\u2019ve got taringa whakarongo. High Court is a completely different beast. That\u2019s why we need to give time. We need to allow for the officials to ready themselves. What does implementation look like? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EI want to call back to what the officials told us in the supplementary analysis report, where Te Arawhiti said in their overall analysis\u2014Te Arawhiti considered this reform was unlikely to address the primary concerns that M\u0101ori have with the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act, as identified through the Waitangi Tribunal 2660 inquiry, and any amendments proposed to address the coalition commitments only make it harder under the current law to prove customary marine title. The erosion of the ability of M\u0101ori to be able to bring their case to court is going to be a significant burden.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EBut then the resourcing of the machinery\u2014how much is it: $20 million, $30 million? What\u2019s the budget for this? What\u2019s the burden for the taxpayer of New Zealand? Mr Chair, I want to carry on my kauwhau, thank you very much\u2014kia ora t\u0101tou. Because, ultimately, M\u0101ori who have to come back into this process are going to be challenging the specific\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022af3e2e0d996f4ec296572b77c4d46dd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af3e2e0d996f4ec296572b77c4d46dd3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, the Hon Paul Goldsmith, so he can respond to some of the questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022 data-id=\u002203db1f04b0e64b46b0ed479c0ed1e156\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002291c0e777ce3d4711ace36a15c7e22ffe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203db1f04b0e64b46b0ed479c0ed1e156\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. The member did refer to a lot of numbers, and I can assure the member that the Government has received advice and allocated up to $15 million to the rehearing of cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbde4ad11eb849c294c4dbaa5e510fa9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002288978fb9592a4911a8e47eae04d164f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbde4ad11eb849c294c4dbaa5e510fa9\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e63b1fd75a4342038c01a892b069db5c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u002256cf3fe7debe4e70aebc9befdbb8c343\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256cf3fe7debe4e70aebc9befdbb8c343\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 changing the title to include \u201CRetrospective Changing of Marine and Coastal Area\u201D is out of order as being merely an attempt to criticise the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003EThe Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 changing the title to include \u201CConfiscation of Marine and Coastal Area\u201D is out of order as being merely an attempt to criticise the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 changing the title to include \u201C(Entrenching Theft of Foreshore and Seabed)\u201D is out of order as being an attempt to criticise the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 changing the title to include \u201CSeabed and Foreshore Theft\u201D is out of order as being merely an attempt to criticise the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022087cf2e064a943619a21e14a547c8572\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9b2dda4cfd54ce18f47ee3179284c12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9b2dda4cfd54ce18f47ee3179284c12\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that T\u0101kuta Ferris\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a17105676efe4ea6857299ca07d4c867\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002209364ae8fb094ac4b868ab3057896b57\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000788\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002259a20bc3d0f84e2f9fedb900dc6fcd89\u0022\u003EEducation and Training (Vocational Education and Training System) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e650a710f574944bf0a478b9c6af591\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ece78518cad84ad2a731e4ce6961dbfb\u0022\u003EPart 1  Main amendments, and Schedules 1 to 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u00225ac04e176675485693c8a4273eb8668f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ac04e176675485693c8a4273eb8668f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come to the Education and Training (Vocational Education and Training System) Amendment Bill. We start with Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 4 to 39\u2014\u201CMain amendments\u201D\u2014and Schedules 1 to 5. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7b0c4fd7c3a42aba312ec57bd2e81ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7b0c4fd7c3a42aba312ec57bd2e81ff\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. I\u2019m looking for guidance on when we can ask specific questions about specific polytechs in this section of this debate. This is a really big, meaty bill. It\u2019s about 106 pages long, and I know that members here in the Chamber will have specific questions on how the passage of this bill might affect their specific polytechs. I\u2019ve got, to the left of me, my colleague H\u016Bhana Lyndon, who will probably be asking specific questions about NorthTec. I see Labour colleagues to my right\u2014I see Arena Williams, who will probably be asking questions about the Manukau Institute of Technology, and so on and so forth. What is the appropriate stage of this debate where they will be able to ask specific questions about their specific polytechnics and the impacts of this legislation on their polytechnics?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EA second part of that question, which is related, is that there is a quite big regulatory impact statement around this bill; it\u2019s 67 pages long. There\u2019s also another one, so there are several regulatory impact statements on this bill. There\u2019s also the departmental disclosure statement. When is the appropriate time, at this stage of the debate, to be asking questions around it, because my colleagues and I do intend to go clause by clause on this bill after we\u2019ve asked those, I would say, procedural questions and specific questions about local polytechs? I\u2019m just seeking guidance from you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u002203f87eebebe84ff7920c802c0e81fb59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203f87eebebe84ff7920c802c0e81fb59\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that point of order. My understanding is that Part 1 is the substantial part, so it is in this debate. Part 2 is consequential amendments. When those amendments flow through, that is when those discussions can be brought up. My understanding is it will be Part 1, and just to note that we are debating clauses 4 to 39, the main amendments, and Schedules 1 to 5. I hope that clarifies it. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022 data-id=\u00226e5818969e004feea56584350c2d05b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e5818969e004feea56584350c2d05b6\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I rise to take a call on this Education and Training (Vocational Education and Training System) Amendment Bill. While the Opposition does intend to take things clause by clause, and we do intend to start asking questions about specific polytechnics at this stage, I do want to take the opportunity now to highlight, in good faith, what I believe to be a drafting error in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EOf course, all Opposition amendments to this bill have been, and are, made in good faith, but I just wanted to highlight my Amendment Paper now, at the start of the debate, to give the Minister for Vocational Education time to seek advice from her advisers and consider adopting my amendment or incorporating the principles behind it into the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s no secret that the Greens have been opposed to the bill. Our opposition to it has been vigorous and has played out not only in the halls of Parliament and in the parliamentary written questions but also in the broadsheets of New Zealand\u2019s most trusted paper, the Otago Daily Times, the New Zealand Herald, Stuff and TradeMe\u2019s various methods, The Post, The Press, The Northern Advocate, of course, and also on the airwaves of radio and television. I understand why the Minister might be sceptical of my amendment and the good faith behind that amendment. While we do not support this bill, we do support legislation functioning as intended, and, at the moment, I do believe that there is a glaring omission at the heart of the Minister\u2019s bill\u2014the omission is, as drafted, that there is currently no way for an institution that has been established as an anchor polytechnic to be removed out of its designation; nor is there, arguably, a way for anchor polytechnics to be designated as an anchor polytechnic outside of being established as one from its inception.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003ELet me elaborate: new section 315, inserted by clause 22, which replaces Subpart 4 of Part 4, stipulates the conditions for establishing a polytech and establishes in new section 315, under clause 22, that a polytech that gets established may be established as an anchor polytechnic. If you scroll back earlier in the legislation, it does define that as being an Order in Council. There\u2019s a section in clause 22, new section 337, which defines the role of anchor polytechnics, and another section, new section 338, that gives polytechs powers to charge fees. However, there is currently no clause that enables anchor polytechnics to be removed from the designation as an anchor polytechnic in this amendment legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003ENow, one could argue that new section 315, inserted by clause 22, which replaces Subpart 4 of Part 4, gives the powers to designate the polytechnic by Orders in Council. But that is under the heading of \u201CEstablishment of polytechnics\u201D. I would argue that the section is clearly for newly established polytechnics\u2014so if you\u2019re starting a polytech at the start, not intending to designate polytechs that already exist and are currently in existence and have been established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EEven if you could argue that, you couldn\u2019t argue that there is a remotely similar clause that exists for anchor polytechnics. There is a section under clause 22, new section 337, that refers to \u201Cthe anchor polytechnic ceases to be an anchor polytechnic;\u201D. But if you contrast this to the wording around \u201Cfederation polytechnics\u201D, which does have a specific section around how they might be designated and how a federation polytechnic may cease to be designated under section 339\u2014now, I know that this cannot be the Minister\u2019s intention. The Minister has publicly stated and pledged to my local polytechnic, the Otago Polytechnic, and also to the Otago Daily Times, that if they meet the road to viability, which they\u2019re on track to do, they will be able to exit the federation and exit their anchor polytechnic status.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EWhat I have done is I have drafted an Amendment Paper, Amendment Paper 388, explicitly modelled after new section 339\u2014the same section around federation polytechnics\u2014that will enable anchor polytechnics to be designated and removed from the designation of anchor polytechnics, using the exact same language and the exact same processes that the Minister has outlined for federations. I understand there are several ways to slice a pizza; I\u2019m not wedded to my specific way of doing it. I know that the anchor federations are established by an Order in Council, so I would be happy if there was similar language around that section of the Minister being able to remove anchor polytechnic status via Order in Council as well. I just want it explicitly stated in the legislation, and I would like the Minister to have a look at the legislation and instruct her officials to provide a clear way to designate and remove the designation of anchor polytechnics. That\u2019s my contribution; I will be taking many more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022 data-id=\u002231e3b02f39804fd4bba983c57e71234e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231e3b02f39804fd4bba983c57e71234e\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I wanted to ask a question of the Minister for Vocational Education, on something that we looked at as part of the select committee process, specifically around the appointment of the institute of technology and polytechnic (ITP) councils. I\u2019m interested, Minister, in understanding how M\u0101ori will be represented on the ITP councils. I\u2019ll give the Minister an opportunity to answer that question, and I\u2019ve got another one should I get the opportunity afterwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad1da53f77af4745ab685e81033935e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad1da53f77af4745ab685e81033935e0\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, and thank you for those two questions. I thank the Green Party member for the Amendment Paper 388 that has been put forward. I have had a look at that and I have discussed it with the officials. There\u2019s no need for us to have that explicit in the legislation; it would be via an Order in Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI think, perhaps, looking at the anchor polytechnic and the federation polytechnics would be quite different in that the expectation is that federation polytechnics may well move in and out as their ability to provide academic programmes and to be financially sustainable\u2014that they would then be considered for moving out or moving into a federation. However, the anchor polytechnic is exactly that: the anchor polytechnic; the one that is going to generally provide the services and programmes for the other federation polytechnic. The anticipation is that there would be a lot more movement of federation polytechnics than there would be of anchor polytechnics. But I thank the member for considering that. I thank him for his Amendment Paper, which I have looked at, but consider that there\u2019s no need to have that, given that an Order in Council would be the way in which that would occur. As the member has noted, the ability is there for federation polytechnics to move out; it\u2019s quite explicit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIn terms of M\u0101ori representation on councils of Institutes of Technology and Polytechnics of New Zealand (ITP), this is a matter that I think is incredibly important for the ITPs in that they must reflect the make-up of their community\u2014making that as broad as possible. To ensure that a polytechnic is successful, it must be very engaged with their community, must be very integrated with their community, and must understand their community. Therefore, if a polytechnic was operating in a community which was predominantly M\u0101ori, you would expect that polytechnic\u2019s council to be predominantly M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EWhat I don\u2019t want to see happening, and which I feel has happened, is tick-box exercises where there\u2019s been a \u201Cmust have a M\u0101ori representative on council\u201D and \u201CTick, we\u2019ve done that.\u201D That is not what should occur for polytechnics. They should be well integrated, well engaged with their community, and should reflect the make-up of their community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u00225e60b3ff615044b186fb11735061e8c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e60b3ff615044b186fb11735061e8c8\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s my intention to make some opening remarks, but just to signal that across this debate, we will be working through polytech by polytech, and then, given the industry concerns outlined in submissions, I will be encouraging my colleagues to be speaking to particular submissions and pieces of feedback in relation to this bill from industry partners. Buckle in, everyone, because I think we\u2019re in for a long ride on this one: 106 pages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EThis bill really sets out to achieve three things, and it\u2019s outlined in the legislative statement. It aims to restore regional decision-making in vocational education and training; to increase industry leadership in vocational education and training, particularly in the areas of standards setting and work-based training; and, thirdly, to support vocational education and training to reflect local and regional education, training, and workforce needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EI\u2019m a pretty fair guy that will give the Minister for Vocational Education a pretty fair go. But when we reflect on those three goals or targets\u2014whatever this Government wants to call them\u2014this piece of legislation falls well short of achieving any of those three particular items that the Minister has pushed through this piece of legislation for. I go back to the point that that is because at a particular time the politics was hot around Te P\u016Bkenga, we went through an election, the background of the Minister\u2014she knew the subject matter area well\u2014and there was an attraction politically to the merger of the polytechs across the country coming together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EThe one part that I did expect the Minister to address in this legislation is that the problem that any Government or the sector has been trying to solve for decades is the financial viability piece. Throughout this process\u2014and this is my first concern right up front\u2014throughout the select committee process and in every reading, I have shared my concerns both with the Minister, with Government members that sit around the Education and Workforce Committee table, saying there is inadequate financial information that can give us the confidence that even if this was a good piece of legislation, a good structure and set-up, there\u2019s no evidence or information to support us, to give confidence to us that this stacks up. I\u2019ve come to the conclusion that this doesn\u2019t stack up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not financially viable. I haven\u2019t seen any information, nor has anyone ever told me that this puts the sector in a more financially viable position than it was prior to Te P\u016Bkenga, and I still encourage the Minister to share that information with the House. Show us the money, Minister, that tells us that you are able to achieve these three things that you\u2019ve outlined and we will scrutinise them clause by clause tonight. I\u2019ll be asking the money question all along the way, because I don\u2019t think it\u2019s there, but if it\u2019s there, then I\u2019m also happy to eat my words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EI think the challenges across this\u2014and coming back to the financial viability piece\u2014is that stability is not achieved by cutting hundreds of jobs, stability is not achieved by closing down campuses, and it\u2019s certainly not achieved by shutting and cancelling courses from across the country that meet the needs of learners, particularly those more vulnerable than others, but particularly those that sit in our regional communities. In fact, the sector is worse off, but if we\u2019re having a real education conversation, learners are worse off under this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EWith the remaining time tonight, since our chair of the Education and Workforce Committee opened up speaking to the M\u0101ori issues that we have with the bill, I\u2019d like to traverse those first, if I may.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b9ab3aa7b934c7cbabcd3392f4e4e93\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Is that the most important one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022651332c6002e48298311e99a0461a724\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s been a day of it, really. We\u2019ve had the takutai moana bill that shafted M\u0101oris, and so here we are doing it again. I look at Government members from across the House that at the eighth hour submitted amendments to the select committee report, obviously to accommodate the Government\u2019s wishes and this Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EIf I turn to clause 4(2), in \u201CSection 9 amended (Te Tiriti o Waitangi)\u201D, which replaces section 9(2)(e) with section 314(d), the question for the Minister is: in her view, why has this wording been changed? What advice did she receive from her officials on that? What are the other characteristics of polytechnics that she\u2019s referring to in that particular section? Does this reduce the priority for polytechnics to improve M\u0101ori outcomes\u2014yes or no? If they don\u2019t, how will they be achieved and what advice has the Minister received on the outcomes for M\u0101ori at polytechnics? I\u2019ll pause there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3bcd424a502437bac92c485e516f85b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3bcd424a502437bac92c485e516f85b\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Shanan Halbert for his many questions. I\u2019m delighted that we\u2019re going to spend hours and hours talking about vocational education. I couldn\u2019t be more pleased, and if we\u2019re going to talk about each individual polytechnic, I will be absolutely delighted to shine a light on each of our polytechnics. So thank you for that opportunity. Thank you also for the opportunity to shine a light on our workplace training, our valuable apprentices and trainees and industries. I couldn\u2019t be more pleased that we\u2019re going to spend hours in this Chamber talking about vocational education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIn terms of the financial information, I\u2019m very, very pleased to tell the member that, for the last 18 months, the Tertiary Education Commission has assigned financial advisers to each individual polytechnic to go through a pathway to financial sustainability\u2014work that should have happened the day Te P\u016Bkenga came into being. I reflect back on 2018 when $20 million had to be injected into Whitireia and WelTec to keep the lights on so that they could continue to pay their staff and their bills. The fact that no work was done in five years to address their financial situation was absolutely appalling. So I\u2019m very pleased\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a66df8a091ae462bab7b27e59b1a4c2d\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I just want to clarify the comment from the Minister\u2014because we\u2019ll tidy this up now\u2014who commented that no work was done on the financial viability of the polytechnics across five years. I don\u2019t understand that to be correct. She may like to correct her statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u002281097b12d40240bbaacd6766ef50f46e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281097b12d40240bbaacd6766ef50f46e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: With points of order, please direct us to the Standing Order, which would help the committee. There will be opportunities for you to put an alternative view or a different perspective on what the Minister is saying. That opportunity will be made available to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226157ced0f3484288a44ca15a1c275ab0\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m happy to correct my statement and say that insufficient work was done to ensure the financial sustainability of the polytechnics. It was incredibly heartbreaking to see that that sort of work was not done. I can also assure the member that we won\u2019t face what the previous Government faced when setting up Te P\u016Bkenga, which was a report, then a Budget bid, that went to the then Government saying, \u201COh, we\u2019ve set Te P\u016Bkenga up but we haven\u2019t got enough money to be able to make it operational. We have to do a whole reset of our digital systems and that is going to take hundreds of millions of dollars.\u201D I understand from the first Budget bid that was leaked in October 2022 that that was to be $940 million - odd over 10 years. It was scaled back and scaled back and eventually got to a $200 million loan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI\u2019m happy with the work we have done over the last 18 months to ensure that individual polytechnics have got a pathway to sustainability, and I\u2019m happy with the work that has been done in securing additional funding off $20 million a year over the next two years to ensure that strategically important areas, regions\u2014geographic areas\u2014are not put in jeopardy, and that strategically important disciplines such as agriculture or forestry are not going to be put in jeopardy while we work through what sort of funding changes might be needed in a long-term perspective of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI am confident that the work that has been done on individual polytechnics over the last 18 months has put them in a much better place. I acknowledge that had that work been done earlier, had the polytechnics been able to get back to their pre-COVID international student numbers, they may have not required so many redundancies. That is a factor of being part of Te P\u016Bkenga. I\u2019m hoping that they will be able to grow that again, and I consider that we are not going to be faced with the sort of question of an additional $930 million - odd being needed over the following nine years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022063bd54b6dc94d579fd60adf937918e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022063bd54b6dc94d579fd60adf937918e8\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E If I may bring the voice of Tai Tokerau into the Whare in terms of Tai Tokerau W\u0101nanga. Tai Tokerau W\u0101nanga\u201446 years of delivery as the pou whirinaki of vocational education for the people of Northland; a place where there has been significant commitment over generations from iwi M\u0101ori and community to a beautiful place we call home. As a graduate, as a former tutor and director, it has been wonderful to come together as community, as leaders, and as iwi M\u0101ori to reflect on student voice and concerns, who have continued to say NorthTec is important. NorthTec Tai Tokerau W\u0101nanga requires investment; Tai Tokerau requires resourcing. It\u2019s not always about financial viability; it can actually be for public good, because what\u2019s good for Northland is good for all of Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc7fc377062d45bda5b02cd17706289f\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yes, yes\u2014great speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c9c5d516acd4c68a5e15e09a4629d20\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: Of course Grant agrees; of course our Northland MP agrees. It would be great to see him come to our meetings; they\u2019re well-advertised. We only get hundreds of people come to talk about NorthTec because we\u2019re all worried about it, and we\u2019re committed to a pathway forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EWe stood in the Banquet Hall and we heard a great pitch. We heard a great pitch from the Northland Corporate Group, these big employers, who said, \u201CAs Northland, we can contribute some $60 billion into the New Zealand economy. Join us, New Zealand, and invest in Northland.\u201D Well, I tell you, we cannot optimise that $60 billion worth of contributions to the New Zealand economy without the people workforce. If we ignore the people workforce, there ain\u2019t no kaimahi. You\u2019re going to be importing them from overseas or outside of the rohe, because, in Tai Tokerau, let\u2019s get that clear; we are young, we are brown, and we are fertile. Our education rates continue to grow, and our population does too. It is M\u0101ori who are there, and it is M\u0101ori who need to be uplifted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003ECan I refer to the institutes of technology and polytechnics (ITP) league chart\u2014the table that compares NorthTec to other ITPs, the 16 across the country, for M\u0101ori achievement. NorthTec\u2019s qualification completion rate for M\u0101ori was fourth out of 16 ITPs. For M\u0101ori, it was fourth out of 16. Now, in terms of the overarching retention of M\u0101ori learners at NorthTec, it was second out of 16 ITPs. I look at our overall\u2014this is overall students\u2014in terms of our progression rates across NorthTec. We continue to grow, and we were first; in the first year of studies, we were first out of all ITPs in New Zealand for retention. This is NorthTec, little old NorthTec\u2014Raumanga, Rawene, Kait\u0101ia, Kerikeri, and the closed Dargaville campus\u2014punching above our weight nationally. This polytech has already been identified as being not financially viable\u2014no pathway to financial viability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the Minister\u2019s invested, I think, a little bit in NorthTec, for a little bit of leeway\u2014awesome. That\u2019s a little bit of a breather for our region, but the question is, really, to the Minister, reflecting on these achievement rates; the way that we can retain our learners; the way that we can see progression happening both for M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori. We need to think of a plan whereby people are put at the centre of decision making instead of a balance sheet, because not all regions are the same, e t\u0101tou m\u0101. I don\u2019t know whether you know that Hokianga is different to Kerikeri; Kerikeri is different to Manurewa; Manurewa is different, of course, to Whakat\u0101ne; and Tai Tokerau is a little bit like Toi Ohomai. Tai Tokerau is a little bit like Western Institute of Technology at Taranaki. These are regional campuses that require urgent assistance and that pathway for us to be able to see a clear way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EMy questions to the Minister, in relation particularly to NorthTec, are about assets, about these wonderful campuses around the hearts of communities like Kait\u0101ia\u2014Redan Road\u2014like Kerikeri, and it\u2019s called Te Pou o Kororipo. Rawene campus is something that is, right now, with community\u2014but, actually, they want to do more. There\u2019s a particular connection that I think maybe institutions such as NorthTec might be missing\u2014and I\u2019m asking the Chair to allow me to finish my kauwhau before the Minister answers\u2014[Bell rung] Thank you, Mr Chair, may I complete my kauwhau? Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7c6c233d743495ca09d1420aecf21a9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, if you do it quickly, because there are answers that I\u2019ve been waiting for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b58546850c049ab9243d250258eb95b\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014and I have more p\u0101tai\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022213f92575532404ba7e401612fa8e24b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, if you just finish off there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cb5a2255969472691a177605d707639\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: It just keeps giving, so give me a chance. My p\u0101tai is: we have that short runway of a little bit of investment to help us for the next year or two; we have these wonderful assets in our communities that have been hubs for educational excellence, as you\u2019ve heard. NorthTec has great achievement rates and retention. But, further to that, are we going to see the investment in those places to stay open? May the doors stay open and allow and encourage our employers to get alongside NorthTec and start boosting student numbers with our equivalent full-time students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u00221d4e9e9e459b42b0ba2a8e3cf2033fa6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d4e9e9e459b42b0ba2a8e3cf2033fa6\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Mr Chair, I\u2019m very pleased. Thank you to the member H\u016Bhana Lyndon for bringing up NorthTec because it is a wonderful example of the work that has been done. I think they were the first polytechnic that I started engaging with the community\u2014I think probably 18 months ago, maybe a little longer than that. There is a fabulous community group of leaders up there made up of business leaders, iwi leaders, local government leaders, chamber of commerce, the local economic development agency, who have been working away diligently because of exactly the comments that you have made: that it is an incredibly important part of the Far North\u2014Northland and the Far North.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EYes, you will see in a number of the papers that are released that I was constantly getting advice that there was no pathway to viability. That was something I would not accept for that polytechnic because I consider it is too important for that region. That is why I have continued to work with them. I have ensured that they had financial assistance all the way through. You will be very pleased to know that out of the strategic investment fund, NorthTec have got the most of any polytechnic for the next two years. I am very keen to ensure that we keep provision in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003ECan I make one point very clear to the member: you do not want a Minister of any stripe making decisions about where polytechnics have campuses. That is a decision that should be made by the council of that polytechnic because they should be engaged with their community; they should know what is needed in their community. Please do not let a Minister ever think they should be making that decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EThe other thing, though, I would say to you is that there were some unintended consequences of some legislation that the Green Party brought in a few years ago. One of them\u2014I think that it would be really useful if you could look at an address. You have a very\u2014sorry, not you. NorthTec has a very strong nursing degree. It\u2019s an incredibly important degree and has a lot of mature M\u0101ori w\u0101hine that take that programme, who up until a few years ago were able to stay on the marae when they came down to undertake a few days. They weren\u2019t able to do that once the pastoral care code came in, which the Green Party brought in, because they couldn\u2019t do it. These were mature women who had brought up families, but they weren\u2019t able to stay on the marae themselves without having some kind of residential assistance there for them. I would like the Green Party to have a wee look at the unintended consequences that have made it very difficult for a number of mature women in the Far North who want to undertake their nursing degree. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b246ab344a214088beea207f1ca9dffc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b246ab344a214088beea207f1ca9dffc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The committee will resume tomorrow at 9 a.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510142bbb376cd2dd492a99013d9d571f9ae4000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.58 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c5e0150f476c472fbc6f68c7e3fa627c\u0022\u003ETuesday, 14 OCTOBER 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022196b1ed7532542928d5b96cca8f5b1f8\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 15 October 2025)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002263d02a2d5f374d1e98426010a61f9d94\u0022\u003EEducation and Training (Vocational Education and Training System) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a46a91e8ebf54d1b88973e3a4b4cede6\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bcb1af8a05584b92b1368e97a91b3c94\u0022\u003EPart 1  Main amendments, and Schedules 1 to 5 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022 data-id=\u00222d6f9041e41345bd880350f7a58d8cc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d6f9041e41345bd880350f7a58d8cc8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, when we suspended last evening, we were considering the Education and Training (Vocational Education and Training System) Amendment Bill and we were debating Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 4 to 39, \u201CMain amendments\u201D, and Schedules 1 to 5. The question is, again, that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0c59e3e3fdb449eb84fc6f3da4fda29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0c59e3e3fdb449eb84fc6f3da4fda29\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I also want to thank the Minister for her engagement last night on this bill, particularly her willingness to engage in hours and hours of discussion about how great the polytechs around this country would be, if necessary. The Opposition is also looking forward to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EI also wanted to acknowledge something she said last night around the pastoral code issue, and around how that might have prevented some people in NorthTec from being able to stay the night at the marae\u2014I mean, obviously, that pastoral code was a response to some very sad tragedies around halls of residence. There was a lot of stuff that was going on that shouldn\u2019t have been. I\u2019ve had mixed feedback from talking to stakeholders around it. Some of the groups that I\u2019ve been talking to don\u2019t think it\u2019s strong enough. Some people that I\u2019ve talked to\u2014and acknowledging the submission made by the University of Otago and the University Advisory Group where they called for a review of it. A cross-party basis of reviewing it could potentially be on the cards, depending on the terms of reference, and we\u2019re willing to engage constructively with the Minister on that bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003ETurning though to this bill, I want to start going clause by clause a little bit, while acknowledging that some colleagues might still have some specific questions to ask around specific polytechnics. I want to turn to clause 5(5) in Part 1, around the definition of \u201Crelevant services\u201D. Now, the relevant services here include the design and development of micro-credentials, \u201Cthe development and ongoing operation of a quality management system\u201D, and \u201Cthe provision of shared administration information services for 2 or more federation polytechnics\u201D. I do believe that there are other relevant services that could, potentially, be added to that clause\u2014for example, I\u2019m thinking in particular, as we\u2019ve just been talking about earlier in this debate, that pastoral care issues could perhaps come into shared services. Something that could be shared across different federation polytechnics, or one or more polytechs, is disability services, and disability support services in particular. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the joint submission that was made by the Disabled Persons Assembly and the National Disabled Students\u2019 Association on the Education and Training (Vocational Education and Training System) Amendment Bill. They talked in their submission about how 38 percent of disabled people aged 15 years and over who are not currently in post - secondary education or training would like to do so in the future, but they face numerous barriers in accessing it. I think that including disability services in the relevant services that could be shared across the different services could be a way that we get a cohesive approach on this, and I do think that that is something we need to make sure is not lost with Te P\u016Bkenga. It had a very good focus on reducing inequity between mainstream learners and learners with disabilities and on reducing the education gaps with Pasifika and M\u0101ori cohorts, and that was talked about in the annual review hearing with Te P\u016Bkenga. We would like to see the disability services potentially included in this list of relevant services, as well as pastoral care services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EAnother thing that could potentially go into it is marketing services, and particularly international student support, as well. We know that there has been an increased focus on getting the international students back. That started recovering in 2023, and there\u2019s been a continuation and acceleration of that trend during this Government. We do feel that having provision for international support services and the marketing component of that could be something that\u2019s beneficial to the vocational and educational training system going forward, if the different institutes of technology and polytechnics could share services and support between them in either the federation or the anchor federation context. I\u2019ll have many more calls to take during this debate, but I\u2019ll leave my contribution at that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022343cfd5c272540b29f081fe388eb29cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022343cfd5c272540b29f081fe388eb29cd\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the member Francisco Hernandez. I appreciate that very constructive start to his question, where he offered to review the unintended consequences that have come from the pastoral code that the Green Party brought in. I think that\u2019s very sensible, and I\u2019m keen to talk further on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIn terms of the federation and the shared services, it isn\u2019t an exhaustive list. Obviously, in the legislation I would expect that the list will change over time. I absolutely accept what the member is saying about shared services for disability support, pastoral care, marketing, and international marketing. All those things, I think, are open to be able to be included in the sort of shared services, and I think the member has completely grasped the essence of the federation, which is that it\u2019s going to be about what services are needed by the federation partners and what they can do to work together to be more effective, to save costs, and to be able to provide better service to students. Thank you for bringing in those matters, and they are exactly the sorts of things I would expect might be shared. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7c538da2b124c21b455b3adacf35771\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7c538da2b124c21b455b3adacf35771\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning. This is my first call on what\u2019s promising to be a lengthy and detailed examination of this bill. I just want to make some opening comments. I\u2019m sure I share with all members in the committee a commitment to the importance of building a first-rate vocational education training system for this country, and we know how important that is for the social and economic outcomes that we all strive for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003EI\u2019m particularly interested through the course of the debate this morning to touch on what I think is the increased complexity in the system that is reflected in this bill, and I\u2019ll be keen to ask some questions, particularly, around the federation model that is contained here. Like my colleague Shanan Halbert, I\u2019m also keen to explore the costs that are not directly contained in the wording of this bill, but are nevertheless the elephant in the room in terms of a successful transition, and we\u2019ll be doing that particularly around the sections of the bill that are around the establishment of the new industry skills boards, or the new polytechs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003EOne of the areas that we want to talk about is the weakening of the requirement to engage with M\u0101ori, and I want to direct the Minister for Vocational Education\u2019s attention to new section 318 in clause 22 of the bill. This is just one of a number of issues that we\u2019ll be discussing over the next few hours. New section 318, basically, amends the text by deleting a requirement that \u201C(1) The council of a polytechnic should, as far as is reasonably practicable,\u2014(a) reflect the communities in the region that the polytechnic serves,\u201D\u2014and then it specifies\u2014\u201C(i) industries and commercial activities; and (ii) ethnic, gender, and socio-economic diversity; and (iii) diversity of abilities; and (b) include M\u0101ori.\u201D in that governance of the polytechs. It\u2019s been replaced by a new subsection (1), which says that \u201CThe council of a polytechnic should, as far as is reasonably practicable, reflect the communities in the region that the polytechnic serves.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003EI have two questions for the Minister. Given the centrality of the Treaty in our country\u2019s public life and matters of public policy and the importance of M\u0101ori being at the table and fully engaged in decision making and so on, including in the governance of our country\u2019s institutions, why would the Government deliberately exclude the reference to including M\u0101ori in the governance of polytechs? That\u2019s the first question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003EThe second question is: why replace the specificity that was in the original text with a phrase that simply says \u201Creflect the communities\u201D? What does \u201Creflect the communities\u201D mean? I mean, our communities are made up of a myriad of different identities and qualities. Does it mean the people on the board should live in the same place? Does it mean they should have brown hair or blue eyes? It could literally mean anything, to say \u201Creflect the communities\u201D, and I think we owe it to the communities we serve that if you want to give a direction about what groups should be included in the governance of a board that is serving a particular community, why not say it\u2014why not be more precise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003EI put it to the Minister that this\u2014I mean, and I\u2019d like to know whether this is kind of a deliberate vagueness here and what kind of outcomes she is suggesting. Who does she think should be included, and if she does have in mind specific groups that should be included in the governance of a given polytech, why not say it, because otherwise, how are people going to know? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022046ed9b8a5f544f2b9555721bf554fbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022046ed9b8a5f544f2b9555721bf554fbb\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I did address this yesterday, but I am very happy to go over it again. I think it\u2019s an important part. Can I also just thank the member Phil Twyford for talking about how important this sector is. It is particularly important for our Government, given the Going For Growth agenda, and I am very happy to talk about costs as we go through the day because we\u2019ve got some very good stories around costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIn terms of this particular section, I think it\u2019s very important to ensure that a piece of legislation like this can be enduring, and to put exhaustive lists in really constrains things to the moment, now. By having a much less exhaustive list and to be leaving it open-ended, to be leaving it inclusive, and to be giving the intent, that allows the local region to look at their region, and I\u2019ve said this on multiple occasions: a successful polytechnic is one that is engaged with its community, that is integrated with its community, that takes notice of its community, and that works with its community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EThis is very much about insisting that it is not a tick-box exercise\u2014\u201COh good, we\u2019ve done what we should do in the legislation.\u201D This is about ensuring polytechnics are taking notice of their community and reflecting their community, and communities will evolve over time and so will be able to be open enough and inclusive enough to take note and reflect their community at any given time. I would expect that there would be virtually no community in this country that would not have a significant proportion of M\u0101ori in it, and therefore I would expect that that would be reflected in the council. In some, it may well be a majority of council members, but let\u2019s leave it as open and as inclusive as possible for the local regions and the local people to make that call on the basis of the make-up of their community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba91a1c4773c4dc59b15e0ec3c9a8ec2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba91a1c4773c4dc59b15e0ec3c9a8ec2\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to ask the Minister another question this morning. It\u2019s a pity that we\u2019re revisiting issues that were addressed last night already. I just want to acknowledge the Minister\u2019s focus on creating enduring legislation, and it\u2019s a pity that the previous Government spent a billion dollars trying to solve a problem that was only about a few million at the time and it didn\u2019t create an enduring solution. So I just want to acknowledge the Minister\u2019s focus on creating an enduring solution in the polytechnic sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003EA part of that is the establishment of industry skills boards to ensure that industry is able to have a role in the polytechnic system in New Zealand. My question for the Minister is regarding the representation on those industry skills boards and how they\u2019ll be created to ensure that the polytechnic sector is supported by industry. Specifically, given the conversation we\u2019ve just had, how will M\u0101ori be represented on those industry skills boards? Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022a886fc6f2ac54d1d84d91f576ccddbc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a886fc6f2ac54d1d84d91f576ccddbc1\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The industry skills boards are such an integral part of the whole vocational education and training system. Industry should be driving our vocational education and training system, and that is why the industry skills boards have been put in place. They are to be driven by industry. Six of the governing positions will be put there by industry and two will be put by the Minister, but the Minister can only appoint people that industry have nominated, and so the Minister is constrained again by ensuring that they are industry people to be there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EThe whole notion of our industry qualifications being driven by industry is integral to this. The industry skills boards will set the standards, will develop the qualifications, will undertake the moderation, will give endorsement to those entities that can run the programmes, and will give advice to the Tertiary Education Commission about where funding should go so that it\u2019s in the right place at the right time. This is about industry being put in the driver\u2019s seat again of ensuring that industry qualifications are fit for what industry wants out in the workforce. It\u2019s really absolutely being driven by industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIn terms of the membership\u2014and I just want to get to the right clause, and I\u2019m hoping someone on the bench behind me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022189316c300094620b04933466142ad01\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Section 356.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226915421a9f254be4bc87843c24c5ca8c\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Section 356, is it? Let me get to that quickly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7b2da795ce04e0ebe87c913d2c0d318\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Section 362, sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ad5a9df2876479c82e8b1b05541db4a\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Section 362\u2014thank you. Yes, I didn\u2019t think it was that. New section 362 in clause 23\u2014the membership. We expect that the membership will give effect to the tertiary education strategy. The roles of the board will be giving effect to the tertiary education strategy and the particular populations that are referenced in the tertiary education strategy\u2014sorry, I\u2019m quickly trying to find it, and I\u2019m hoping someone will tell me which clause it is. [Interruption] It\u2019s new section 370(e) in clause 23\u2014thank you very much. Here we are, yes: it will have \u201Cregard to the needs of M\u0101ori and other population groups as identified in the tertiary education strategy issued under section 7.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIt is incredibly important. The tertiary education strategy is absolutely wanting to ensure that there is equity of access and there is an absolute emphasis on ensuring that M\u0101ori are achieving. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022 data-id=\u00226b82b5dcd79b4e2881e9f3b27380bb01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b82b5dcd79b4e2881e9f3b27380bb01\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Heamana. T\u0113n\u0101 hoki koe e te Minita. I\u2019m not wanting to relitigate anything, but I\u2019m actually just trying to get some specific answers and clarity for communities throughout Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti and Aotearoa, particularly small communities like the one I live in, several of whom I represent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003EI want to preface my comments by thanking the Eastern Institute of Technology (EIT) for their service throughout Tair\u0101whiti over the years, servicing people as far north as P\u014Dtaka, tae noa atu ki roto o Kahungunu [and all the way into Kahungunu].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003EI just want to pick up on the Minister\u2019s statements about giving regard to M\u0101ori. It\u2019s very hard for me to stomach that when, in fact, the words \u201Cinclude M\u0101ori\u201D are being struck out. So I just wanted to ask the Minister, for clarity, whether she can accept that the reason that this clause was put in there is because M\u0101ori were not adequately represented, and I would like an explanation of how giving regard to M\u0101ori representation will look. For example, in an area like Tair\u0101whiti, where 56 percent of the population are M\u0101ori, does that mean that 56 percent of the council will be M\u0101ori? I\u2019m just really interested in how that will be addressed and delivered upon, because those clauses were put\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df3e6766443b46819410ad4fedf34077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227df32c4b8b474059852576b7709499e1\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Labour loves quotas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee3429058ed24968b57215464a27c7e3\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, hang on. We\u2019ve got an expert across here. What was that\u2014what was that, expert on M\u0101ori representation? Nothing\u2014kia ora. Now, can she appreciate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225908d798e30d43d6bc51aae222d70aba\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: And you\u2019re an expert? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e375ddc4cca24f2aa642274087780330\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Calm down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022177b2383e46a410aa109aaed7b70ee88\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that clauses\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaa1a9a22f49426883c096c59a145197\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: How are you an expert? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022556fbf167c3e4c3bbca81f23c73d9f32\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: What was that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9d3296849a64b78a4aee44014c0d43f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Calm down. I invite\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfff9cd32b004fcba9d4452871fd5c20\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that, Mr Bates? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022070e2815c7c042ecad7f1d37f3619f4e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I invite the questioner to continue her questions to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9e62a0ebbcb4b27aba0c970fe6a2e44\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014get those experts to settle down. So does she appreciate that clauses like that were included because of a lack of representation of M\u0101ori, and how exactly is she going to ensure the balance of representation? Actually, by leaving it, I think she\u2019s making it more complex. Heoi an\u014D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003EIt was really awesome also to hear the Minister talking about primary industries and how they will be represented. I\u2019m definitely interested in that, in areas throughout Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti where industries like forestry, etc., are major drivers of employment and economy. So what\u2019s that balance going to look like for smaller regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003ENow, I refer back to section 314(d) in clause 22, which provides that one of the characteristics of polytechnics is that \u201Cthey improve outcomes for M\u0101ori students and trainees and M\u0101ori communities in collaboration with M\u0101ori and iwi and other interested persons\u201D, and, in particular, the part where it says that they \u201Cimprove outcomes for M\u0101ori students\u201D. Now, how can this be ensured when areas like Tair\u0101whiti and EIT Tair\u0101whiti, who have a M\u0101ori population of 56 percent and a rangatahi population of 70.4 percent, have lost 40 academic and support roles? How is that improving outcomes for M\u0101ori students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019re talking about centralisation, as well. What assurances does that give for communities who cannot necessarily get the amount of students or \u201Cbums on seats\u201D that may be required by the institution but still deserve access to education? What assurances can the Minister provide for people across rural communities from Wharekahika to Tolaga Bay, and even actually in Gisborne\u2014now that massive amounts of staff have been lost\u2014that they will have access to education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003ERecently, we\u2019ve had a really good tranche of nursing students come out of EIT. Our hospital is at only 63 percent of staffing capacity. What assurances can the Minister give to ensure access to education and that it will flow on to employment in our smaller regions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003EI also think about the wonderful beauty course being delivered out of Maraenui. What assurances can the Minister give to them that they will continue to have access to education and employment? Thank you, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u002268098000f0244552818e38c34cae021a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268098000f0244552818e38c34cae021a\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am so pleased that the member asked me to discuss the Eastern Institute of Technology (EIT). What a wonderful polytechnic, a wonderful institution\u2014I\u2019m absolutely delighted to talk about it\u2014and what a great example she has given of a community that has a population of 56 percent who are M\u0101ori. This clause enables the local community\u2014not the Minister sitting in Wellington, but the local community\u2014to decide what the make-up of that board and of that council should be for EIT. What a wonderful opportunity to ensure that the 56 percent proportion of M\u0101ori in that population is well represented on that council, and, if it\u2019s not, then they should be looking very closely at their local board that was put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI\u2019m delighted to talk about EIT, and the member is quite right that there have been some losses there. There have not been as many as in some places, but there have been some losses there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I\u2019ve been incredibly disappointed about for EIT is that they had a very difficult time under Cyclone Gabrielle, their campus was ruined, and they had to rebuild it again. There was a bit of gap in the insurance, and no help was given to them under the previous Government, but even worse than this\u2014and I hope the member listens very carefully to this; this is one of the reasons why redundancies have had to be made there. Under the previous Government, $6.5 million was clawed back by the Tertiary Education Commission because, with the closure of their campus from the cyclone, they didn\u2019t meet their targeted numbers. So, instead of doing what happened when there was an earthquake in Christchurch and where they were able to keep their numbers for a number of years, $6.5 million was clawed back. They had to drop down their base number that they started from, and I\u2019m having to rebuild that again for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EThe member will be delighted to know\u2014absolutely delighted to know, I\u2019m sure\u2014that EIT will be getting $1.559 million under the strategic fund in the next two years. I\u2019m also looking under the recapitalisation at what we can do to help them there in order to address that dreadful situation where $6.5 million was clawed back from them during the previous Government. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022 data-id=\u00223dc2f52b8ae44eb6971f9c41973ab30f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dc2f52b8ae44eb6971f9c41973ab30f\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Minister. I\u2019m sure we all know the importance of education. I\u2019d spent the last 15 years before coming here in institutes of technology and polytechnics, and universities. I was at the Nelson Marlborough Institute of Technology (NMIT) for seven years, while Penny was down south at the Southern Institute of Technology. We\u2019ve hashed all of these\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a0f465e7a324da0b24c6edc9587f635\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CWhile the Minister\u201D\u2014not the first name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022267592fae43a4b96bfa8a2e60f3f8168\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the Minister\u2014the Minister. These things have been hashed out time and time again. We\u2019re here considering a new federation model when the one that\u2019s being thrown out was the federation model. We\u2019re here talking about M\u0101ori representation on councils. There\u2019s never been good M\u0101ori representation on councils, and these adjustments\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209acb828799c478c941c91ad9edd4995\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve sat on council with some good M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a005bfb06cf4453a06ed74860754040\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got no clue\u2014no clue. Penny knows\u2014the Minister knows\u2014that these adjustments won\u2019t achieve it. These adjustments won\u2019t achieve it. Mana whenua managed to produce good M\u0101ori input into councils, but it\u2019s not as a result of any Government law; it\u2019s as a result of iwi determination and presence in those rohe. [Interruption] Don\u2019t you just love listening to the guys who know nothing about something? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaaccba3420a403ea827baefe1720c06\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m only noting the speaker\u2019s comments, and I\u2019d ask the others to just tone theirs down a bit. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f2ff9ff22cf416c8e9ecf6f507b6855\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: The key role for education and training, probably more so training in this country\u2019s current situation\u2014training, getting people from one job to the next one, or out of work and into a job\u2014is vital for the future economy, and here we are, two years into solving the problem and we\u2019re not quite there yet. Does the sector have to wait another three years to get the next revamp of the same ideas? We need the training done effectively and we need it done quickly. That\u2019s what the economy needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EIn 2010, Arthur Graves came down\u2014no, no, sorry. He came down, probably, in about 2012. He came down to NMIT and sold us the story of why M\u0101ori and Pacific trade training was so desperately needed. His story was that we\u2019ve got 30 percent of the workforce retiring\u2014they\u2019re the baby boomers\u2014and exiting over the next decade or more, and that 30 percent of retirees exiting the workforce were being replaced by a 30 percent cohort of young M\u0101ori and Polynesians. Now, the conundrum for the Government of the time was that the legislative settings and, indeed, all the settings in education continued to produce poor to despicable results for those young M\u0101ori and Polynesians. That was their problem, OK, and so what\u2019s the fix? It\u2019s M\u0101ori and Pacific trade training. The first cab off the rank was Ng\u0101i Tahu. They showed up with their money, He Toki ki te Rika, away they\u2019d go, and they were a raging success\u2014a raging success for more than a decade\u2014and then, slowly but surely, all the other regions would come on. They\u2019re supported by their iwi, and that\u2019s the story of M\u0101ori and Pacific trade training. The problem it was trying to address was the skill gap in the labour workforce of the economy. Now, if you can\u2019t get that right, your future economy is just buggered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003ESo here we are, continuing to talk about the same challenges and trying to fix them whilst the need continues to go unaddressed. It needs some speed, Minister, and I know you\u2019d appreciate that. That 30 percent young M\u0101ori and Pacific Island cohort who are going to drive the future economy, they deserve action fast. The iwi people will support them. The community people will support them, like they already have. They need the legislative settings and the right policies to enable good action. Now, unfortunately, the Government has pulled the funding on M\u0101ori and Pacific trade training, and in Otago the managers who look after all of that apprentice work that those M\u0101ori and Pacific trade training graduates would go into have experienced a 67 percent downturn in the take-up of apprenticeships by young M\u0101ori and Polynesians. These are the problems on the table for any solutions that you have here, e te Minita. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u002200c968667a6f4f738672c892bf474228\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200c968667a6f4f738672c892bf474228\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019m delighted to be talking about the Nelson Marlborough Institute of Technology (NMIT) in particular, where the member T\u0101kuta Ferris had 15 years\u2019 experience. Of course, I had 30 years\u2019 experience, but it\u2019s great that there are others who have got experience in this sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI particularly want to acknowledge that the polytech sector is known for training M\u0101ori and Pasifika, and I will stand corrected if someone will give me a different figure, but I believe that the polytech sector trains more M\u0101ori than any other part of the tertiary education sector. That\u2019s something that I am incredibly proud of. In terms of that wonderful institution NMIT in Nelson-Marlborough, what a great institution that is, and I am so delighted that we have found a young star there. Young Ng\u0101i Tahu Olivia Hall, who is the director there, has done wonderful work there. She is also a member, of course, of the iwi leaders forum for education and has, again, done wonderful work feeding in to these challenges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003ELook, I absolutely agree with what the member has said: it needs to happen fast\u2014the changes need to happen fast. I will correct the member that M\u0101ori and Pasifika trades training still exists and is still going, and I am absolutely looking forward to that growing as the economy takes off again because construction is doing so well in the South. I thank the member for bringing to the committee\u2019s attention how well the polytechnic sector serves our M\u0101ori communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef100972522940c4934c56f9179cc285\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef100972522940c4934c56f9179cc285\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair. This is my first contribution for the morning. You know, I acknowledge the Minister for Vocational Education\u2019s been in this game for a long time, and I acknowledge that the Government members, both last night and this morning, have launched out our chair for the Education and Workforce Committee, Carl Bates, who has asked specifically around the impact for M\u0101ori and some of the specific changes in the legislation that were made by the Government members on the select committee and given the Minister the opportunity to respond to those. However\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221acd431a430642faaa9310d3c9b4e866\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: And that\u2019s fine. It\u2019s good to see Government members taking calls rather than closure motions, right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227360b8f3949246d28a246026b8bb8b38\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: I applaud them for that. Long may it continue over the next few hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db8756e384c646b4b720d36760cd2f5f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Only if they\u2019re relevant, right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a25aeb05d5e4f5bb5584dffe0af27e4\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: But speaking of relevancy, I do want to come back specifically to the M\u0101ori piece and the Te Tiriti piece that I don\u2019t believe that the Minister has answered. Last night, I did ask a series of questions relevant to new section 314(d) in clause 22, in particular, that the Minister didn\u2019t respond to. The main theme there is the amendments to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and I guess, given her sheer experience\u2014was it 25 years, Minister?\u2014in the tertiary sector\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022808354061148461fa25b3e18df2ac9d7\u0022\u003EHon Penny Simmonds\u003C/span\u003E: 30.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225060832563444c1c99ad5f79d4bd8718\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: \u201430 years in the tertiary sector\u2014she would have a very good understanding around the inequities that sit in the system, particularly for M\u0101ori. I\u2019m interested to understand from her why she reached out in this legislation. What we\u2019ve seen through submissions is very few amendments overall, but she did go out of her way with the Government members in the select committee process to make changes to the M\u0101ori piece and the Te Tiriti piece.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EMy first question for the Minister is that I\u2019m just really interested to understand, out of 106 pages of legislation\u2014you know, you\u2019ve really gone out of your way to make changes there. It does dilute M\u0101ori representation and, therefore, will directly impact on achieving M\u0101ori outcomes. My colleague Cushla Tangaere-Manuel spoke specifically\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df3e6766443b46819410ad4fedf34077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a5e97591c7340f4995da092d56d11be\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What about the French? Can you show me the logic lying there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257814a227dca42388c591b221728e4d1\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014about the Eastern Institute of Technology\u2014and I appreciate that Stuart Smith really has an interest around better French representation on the council. It\u2019s all over to you\u2014we can speak to the French section a little bit later on. But I just reserve the right and I just want to speak about the M\u0101ori parts. I\u2019m keen to cover that off first, before we get to the French, Mr Smith. I\u2019m keen to understand from the Minister the whakapapa, in her view, of why these changes were important, given all the changes that we might require in this particular amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EI come back to this. I\u2019ve got two minutes in this piece, but you\u2019ll see in the select committee report a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df3e6766443b46819410ad4fedf34077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226712a27627f84ab88ec918c45212b182\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t have to take it all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b96cf5ebc690406eb250f139d6e5f7c9\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: No, I will take that one, and I\u2019ll take some more too, until we have specific answers to why the Government has made changes specifically to create worse outcomes for M\u0101ori and to dilute the reference to Te Tiriti. So\u2014if I may, Madam Chair\u2014I\u2019m very keen to get a good understanding because this sits at the baseline of the success of our tertiary sector. If we don\u2019t get on top of this particular piece, there won\u2019t be better outcomes. We\u2019ll continue to have an inequitable system, and some will do better than others across tertiary education and vocational training in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EIf I come back to the departmental report, clearly, submissions related to the Te Tiriti o Waitangi obligations were common amongst many submissions. They were mostly themed around the removal of explicit Te Tiriti obligations for the vocational education sector, such as the obligations under section 9(1)(g) of the principal Act, the absence of effective engagement with M\u0101ori throughout the drafting process, and the potential lack of ongoing accountability to M\u0101ori and M\u0101ori representation through governance settings. Now, that wasn\u2019t just a handful, and so my two questions there for the Minister are: what\u2019s the whakapapa here, why has she gone out of her way to make these changes, and is there influence from the ACT Party and New Zealand First on her in this sense; and what advice has she received around the impact of these changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u00226a2220a118404cf08456ae0efc6db478\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a2220a118404cf08456ae0efc6db478\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m delighted to speak about this for the fourth time. Let\u2019s just go to the exact clauses. Let me now talk about section 314(d) in clause 22, which says that the characteristics of a polytechnic are to \u201Cimprove outcomes for M\u0101ori students and trainees and M\u0101ori communities in collaboration with M\u0101ori and iwi and other interested persons or bodies.\u201D It\u2019s a very clear characteristic of the new polytechnics. It\u2019s wonderful to see that there in writing, isn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003ELet go to section 318(1) in clause 22: \u201CThe council of a polytechnic should, as far as is reasonably practicable, reflect the communities in the region that the polytechnic serves.\u201D We had the wonderful example that the Eastern Institute of Technology is in a community where 56 percent of the population are M\u0101ori, and that\u2019s exactly what we expect to see reflected in the council of that entity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003ENow let\u2019s go to section 321(c) in clause 22, which says that the additional duties of the council of a polytechnic include to \u201Censure that the polytechnic operates in a way that allows the polytechnic to develop meaningful relationships\u201D\u2014meaningful relationships, not tick-boxes\u2014\u201Cand to engage with communities at a local level, including industries, M\u0101ori employers, hap\u016B and iwi, and Pacific communities.\u201D You\u2019ll be delighted to see how well that is baked into the legislation, and of course, within the wider legislation, polytechnics still have a general duty to acknowledge the Treaty in the main Act. Isn\u2019t it wonderful that we\u2019re seeing this right across the legislation, and I\u2019m happy that we can celebrate that and showcase that today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022 data-id=\u00226e93a8e4caf14b86ba810fb82aaaac4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e93a8e4caf14b86ba810fb82aaaac4c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a call from Ingrid Leary, but on the topic of what\u2019s in the bill around giving regard to M\u0101ori in local polytechs, etc.\u2014I think the Minister has covered that quite well\u2014unless there are specific clauses or questions that people want to refer to. No more general questions on that front; I want specific ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022 data-id=\u00222e79288ddad946e186c79d1d913c464a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e79288ddad946e186c79d1d913c464a\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to ask the Minister about an elephant in the room in the lower South, in terms of why she is tearing apart our region when it comes to tertiary education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003EIt is easy for members of her party to say to people, \u201CDon\u2019t take things personally.\u201D, but I would like her to consider how personal it is to the people in Dunedin when our whole economy is predicated on health and education through the tertiary sector. We have had this Government stymie the ability of the new Dunedin Hospital to be a gold-star hospital that will provide world-leading, tertiary-level excellence in medical education. We have now had the polytech kneecapped because it has been set side by side, pitted against the Southern Institute of Technology (SIT), and so my question is: how is that not personal, and how can she assure people in Dunedin that there is no conflict of interest when she was indeed the chief executive of the Southern Institute of Technology since 1997, when she went into politics with a clear mandate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022016622ac672d4703b26ff509684ec4e8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure that the Minister actually sits with the responsibility for all polytechs. I don\u2019t believe that that is a fair\u2014it\u2019s not an accusation, but it\u2019s not a fair question in the context of what we\u2019re trying to do in this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022584d18cbedbe43debcbb12d780009ed9\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I would just point to the regulatory impact statement (RIS), at page 3, which talks about the lack of consultation and the lack of being able to assess the risks, and so one of my questions is: who bears those risks, particularly when there is active competition between polytechs in the way this has been set up? These are questions that have been asked in the media and they are being asked by locals, and this is an opportunity, in fact, for the Minister to show that this is not personal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003EThere is no clear rationale that has been explained to the people of the South as to why SIT gets treatment on one hand\u2014including Cabinet investment under her Government\u2014versus no funding and a requirement for the Otago Polytechnic to have a pathway to recovery which the unions have described as a cost-cutting programme. These are very legitimate questions, and the people in Dunedin legitimately feel like they have been kneecapped. If that is not the case, then this is the Minister\u2019s opportunity to explain that and to explain away the culture of anxiety that has been described by staff and reported on by the Otago Daily Times. This is an opportunity for her to explain to the whole workforce in Dunedin, of whom between 30 and 60 percent, and 30 percent at minimum, work in health and education. So these are very live questions in my part of the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to commend the polytech for coming out and being really open and robust at the beginning of the process and say that they were appalled by the lack of consultation by this Minister, that they did not know they were going to be part of the federation until the announcement was made, and that they sought and did not get a meeting with the Minister for some time because she was too busy to consult with them. If that is not something to be taken personally, then I would like to understand from the Minister what led to those actions, because it felt like kneecapping, not only to the tertiary sector in Dunedin but to the greater Dunedin community, because education is our lifeblood, and, time and time again, we have seen from this Government a kneecapping of our lifeblood in Dunedin and a disregard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003EI would also say for context that it does seem personal when this is the same Minister who at the eleventh hour, in a different capacity, overturned a local government decision where local ratepayers had paid $18 million to get a decision made locally, in local democracy, around fresh water. It was this Minister who led the charge against that. Now, this is all relevant\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad0944f8d9444519b60673a68e29c2f5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not relevant to this piece of legislation. The last piece is not relevant to this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002200ae89b8149340638b3bd22c705616a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221481529d2cc041cca72b8006b81813c4\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. My questions then, really, are around batting away the very strong perception of conflict of interest that exists for us locally; understanding from the Minister who she thinks bears the risk of her decisions, given that the RIS, on page 3, makes it very clear that there was not time to adequately assess Option 2B. What can she say to claims locally that there is a privatisation agenda in tertiary education, because we have seen a mental health programme cut from Otago Polytechnic that is now suddenly appearing via a private provider in Dunedin. These are very vexed questions for our community, and I welcome a long explanation from the Minister to assure us that we should not take this personally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u002243cb44ac846547f7b82c8ac1349faa3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243cb44ac846547f7b82c8ac1349faa3e\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, Madam Chair, am I pleased to be able to straighten out some of that misinformation that has just been put out by that member Ingrid Leary. What a pity\u2014what a pity. It is a wonderful polytechnic, Otago Polytechnic, that has been so damaged by Te P\u016Bkenga, and all she wants to do is put out misinformation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to spell this out very clearly because I know that financial matters can be quite challenging for some members of the Labour Party, but let me make it very clear to you: there was no conflict of interest there. Otago Polytechnic, sadly, have a debt of $16 million, and to ensure that they are sustainable, I want to wrap support around them because I know how important that polytechnic is to Dunedin. That is why we have wrapped strong governance support around them, that is why I have enabled them to be in the federation to get the additional support, and when the member tries to pit Otago Polytechnic against the Southern Institute of Technology (SIT), what an unfortunate thing to do, because here I am, trying to recapitalise and support Otago Polytechnic. The difference here is that when you have no money in the bank and you have debt that I am trying to solve for them, if they run a deficit, what does she think will happen to that polytechnic? I do not want to see them in that position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003ENow, let me give her the opposite situation in SIT, which went into Te P\u016Bkenga with $40 million in reserves. Only $15 million of that will be ring-fenced, and so they will not come out with the full amount that they went in with, because in the recapitalisation exercise, we\u2019re having to ensure that we take away that debt from those that have got debt so that they have every chance of being successful in the future. And do you know what\u2014sorry, not you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m sure you\u2019d know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae91fb0a4fda4fca8b044e5302729499\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I wasn\u2019t taking it personally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a66f0e3cb22744489ed9fb6dd1ff72ce\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but that member should be very aware that to take away that debt, a number of polytechnics that went in with significant reserves will not come out with the same level of reserves. Any time you want to thank me for that, I say to the member of Parliament for Taieri, you come and see me, because we are going to ensure that all the polytechnics come out in a way that they will be able to sustain their operations going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EThank you very much for the opportunity to be able to discuss that misinformation that has been spread by that member in Otago. Otago is a wonderful polytechnic, and I want to do the very best for them to ensure that they can continue to be a wonderful polytechnic going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022 data-id=\u0022fad5c7ebf07c422bbb7f0db04c279d0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fad5c7ebf07c422bbb7f0db04c279d0d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This will be the last contribution from our side on the question of Treaty clauses and M\u0101ori representation, but the reason I want to take this call is that the Minister hasn\u2019t yet provided an understandable explanation for the removal of Treaty clauses. We\u2019ve talked about the issue generally and so on, but I\u2019m really keen to hear from her why she is determined to strip references to Te Tiriti out of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003EI\u2019d point her directly to new section 370(c) in clause 23, about the industry skills boards. Now, if I think about the M\u0101ori community in the communities that I represent in West Auckland, probably one in five of our people in the communities I serve are M\u0101ori. We have Te Kawerau \u0101 Maki, our mana whenua in West Auckland, and large M\u0101ori organisations like Te Wh\u0101nau o Waipareira. We have thriving marae and a network of M\u0101ori community organisations. There is significant leadership in our community, where Unitec provides the essential service of vocational education and training, and in West Auckland, like in so many parts of the country, young M\u0101ori are the ones who have been so disadvantaged over time and who desperately need responsive services and institutions in vocational education and training. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003EWhy would you take out from the charter of a vital piece of the machinery like the industry skills boards the obligation that a Treaty clause conveys to engage fully with M\u0101ori leadership and with mana whenua to ensure that the right services are being delivered? I\u2019m baffled by that. In this debate so far, we\u2019ve had a number of calls on this question, but I haven\u2019t yet heard from the Minister a clear explanation why she\u2019s determined to strip the Treaty clause out, and I invite her to give us that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6e3d7d835da4ad785be8145563bc981\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6e3d7d835da4ad785be8145563bc981\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. Thank you for allowing me to speak on this bill but also to respond to some of the k\u014Drero that the Minister for Vocational Education has placed in the committee in relation to NorthTec, and particularly marae-based stays. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EHaving been the director at the time, it was an effort for us to provide a place for students\u2014yes, nursing students and others\u2014to stay at the marae as a whare haumaru [safe haven] for them to study at NorthTec, because in Northland it\u2019s hard to get around. We don\u2019t have public transport like in urban settings. You\u2019ll be lucky to get a bus on time in Whang\u0101rei and despite the best advocacy of students to Northland Regional Council to change the bus timetable, they wouldn\u2019t, and so students would have to start way earlier and get their kids off to school way earlier in order to catch a bus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EI want to go to the pastoral support code that the Minister did speak to, and which the Green Party did support, because that code is the anchor, and maybe we need to review it. Maybe we need to review it because I\u2019ve heard from Student Voice, in particular\u2014[Interruption]\u2014that they want to strengthen it. I\u2019m going to talk to the bill and I will continue to talk\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d717fff27d5d4211bdd0bfb524e34b1d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s all right. I was just going to say that the Minister did agree to what you were asking just before too, when your colleague asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e22fba0c5434f26812c587377c6d4fb\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora, thank you, and it\u2019s great because, from the Student Voice perspective, they certainly do feel ignored a lot of the time, and especially when you\u2019re paying your voluntary student levy and it\u2019s going into a black hole sometimes, you don\u2019t know where the services are landing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EIn terms of this legislation, some of the opportunity that we have is to strengthen a focus on pastoral support\u2014which has come through very clearly\u2014as well as academic support. In vocational education, we have a number of students who come out of work or who may not have had the opportunities in secondary education to lock down some of the key areas of literacy and numeracy. Having been director of learner support at NorthTec, I know that we were inundated by requests to support in literacy and numeracy and the testing to support them understand what are their learning needs. Disability support, in particular, has been an area where polytechs don\u2019t necessarily have enough resource to support all of our learners to succeed, and if we can be explicit within the legislation that it is a need for disability support for academic support and pastoral support to be provided across the board, then regions like Northland could thrive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s one of the first cabs off the rank when there are cuts in the polytech sector, and, often, it is pastoral support that gets the cut. We have a significant number of fulltime-equivalent students at risk right now in NorthTec through the internal operational review because of the requirement to be financially viable. I hosted a hui on Monday, 6 October. Unfortunately, my colleague Grant McCallum didn\u2019t come, despite a hundred from our sector\u2014business leaders, our civic leaders, those who work with iwi and students and who are connected to education\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290f442a79aea4ce0aeae083763135935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279c7974c5c6446d585be0972b24161b4\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a hard-working MP who has a lot to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a6d449337084a10bc0999aa09dfbc27\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: If my colleague could stop heckling me so that I could talk about my rohe\u2014you talk about Whanganui when you get a chance. When you get a chance, you talk about Whanganui and you tell us how you\u2019re doing. So, for\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265ae9b239e054d47957f6c1f6d9057ae\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, we\u2019re going to have less heckling both ways, and we\u2019re going to have questions to the Minister, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e0b96a87b594f7d9bf71c94b41a11c8\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you\u2014absolutely\u2014because what I want to ask the Minister is this. Te Matarau Education Trust was a M\u0101ori Pacific trade training provider for over 10 years in Tai Tokerau. Hap\u016B and iwi working together were told by NorthTec at short notice to evacuate the building in December 2024. The general manager spoke to this issue at the hui on 6 October and said, \u201CDo you know, we had a longstanding relationship with NorthTec. We had been partners for such a long time.\u201D, and yet the door was closed on Te Matarau abruptly and they had to leave the office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ve been based at Future Trades in Dyer Street for a decade, and I was a former general manager of Te Matarau, and so I know M\u0101ori Pacific trade training deeply. What appears to be the issue is that M\u0101ori Pacific trade training may be being retained internally now so that it can boost the pastoral support, and that contract can be retained internally instead of valuing the hap\u016B and iwi relationship that Te Matarau had committed to. Te Matarau is a valued member of hap\u016B and iwi providing pastoral support and work brokerage\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022200839810eb94155be7306bf21d350dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269317918d6cf4043b71ca4fefec04053\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chairperson. I appreciate that the member is coming to the close of her five minutes on this, and I\u2019m not trying to question your judgment at all, Madam Chair, but from what we\u2019re hearing there, it sounds like a general debate speech, talking about topics that is not pointed into any clauses relevant to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022611c0783e66c4be9bf304dd4a6d1d6a5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, and, look, thank you for bringing that up. I was about to make a ruling after this speech, but I understand that the Minister wants to take a call first, so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223bb897ab8d624eca84bc4356dec862f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229b2b91bec724ce6b76955b772b11398\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister might want to reply. What will M\u0101ori Pacific trade training be moving forward into the future, when iwi and hap\u016B groups like Te Matarau no longer have a place in the landscape? It\u2019s a missed opportunity, and that\u2019s very sad to hear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u002203478f7b7d6b41828f413a54be3b6877\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203478f7b7d6b41828f413a54be3b6877\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Of course this has nothing to do with the bill that we are currently looking at, but I can give the member an assurance that total funding of approximately $18.5 million has been allocated to M\u0101ori and Pasifika trades training, and the funding was fully allocated in 2024-25. Matters of private training establishments and polytechnics are not a matter for the Minister to interfere in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022 data-id=\u0022376156d1ed704a61ac75d910422a2dd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022376156d1ed704a61ac75d910422a2dd6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I\u2019ve just indicated that I was going to make a bit of a judgment call now. We have been here this morning for an hour, and I feel we\u2019ve traversed a number of issues quite fully. We are getting quite repetitive and we are starting to relitigate some issues. I would request that from hereon in, I want members to refer to specific new clauses that have not yet been asked questions on, and I will take a call now from Shanan Halbert, who is chomping at the bit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u00227399241146ec4f02b9fb29f54ea21884\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227399241146ec4f02b9fb29f54ea21884\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair. Thank you, and, yes, you are right: we do have a lot to get through over the few more hours that we will be in this Chamber scrutinising the Minister, because there are 106 pages in this legislation. I did outline for the Chair last night\u2014and I know that this has been passed on\u2014that we sought permission from the Chair to go through a process of being able to talk polytech by polytech, because there are implications in local contexts. We will continue to do that, and I acknowledge that we\u2019ve started on NorthTec and we\u2019ve started on the Eastern Institute of Technology, but there are a number of polytechs that we would like to discuss as a result of the implications of this legislation. We would also like to do that with regard to specific industries that are implicated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge that the responses to Te Tiriti o Waitangi questions are insufficient, Minister. There are two parts, and I acknowledge that, in your view, you have responded to the M\u0101ori piece. That is quite different to the references to Te Tiriti, and so if you would honour us by giving your view of the world of why you\u2019ve made the decision, we would really appreciate that, as the sector would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EBut, Madam Chair, taking your direction, I will move on to new section 315 in clause 22, which is around the establishment of the polytechs. I think there\u2019s a lot to traverse in this particular area. Submissions noted that in the Ministry of Education\u2019s departmental report, it raised that there were alternative options, but these were not adequately considered because of the ideological agenda of this Government and the Minister. The submissions noted concerns about ensuring collaboration between polytechs will remain under the new system and about how important low-volume provision would be retained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EAs one example, as the Government loads an attack on young people at the moment, if we look at level 1 and 2 foundation learning, there\u2019s simply not enough places for young people to access those particular programmes in Auckland, as one example. Even if the Government wanted them to, there\u2019s not enough provision funded at level 1 and 2, and so there\u2019s one implication there. But, Minister, what submissions or advice were received about retaining Te P\u016Bkenga or alternative options, rather than having a complete disestablishment and re-establishment, because we know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df3e6766443b46819410ad4fedf34077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be0d1828504448d39dfcf08a439df3e9\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That sounds like a written question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022242832146a5b4a26a204196e0944ad4f\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you are correct. Yeah, so Stuart Smith is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218cb51ad601b46679484d9236ff4fb2c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Carry on, Mr Halbert. It sounded like an oral question to me, and so continue to ask the question, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5055ea7b1be4f758879e32823546285\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I have continued to ask these questions through written questions and through oral questions, and across this piece of legislation, it is the emperor without clothes. It\u2019s the emperor without clothes, if anyone knows those stories, because the Minister has been building this plane as it flies because there is a lack of information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003ESo that is my specific question in relation to this clause, and I\u2019ve got a number of others because she has not explained why she chose to disestablish Te P\u016Bkenga as opposed to tweaking some of the challenges that the structure and the sector still faced. Underlying that\u2014which I covered off in my opening statements\u2014is the real question, which is that she hasn\u2019t shown us the money. She hasn\u2019t shown us how this is a more financially viable model than what was in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af5139ca0c04488691d7fe4647a72ef0\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fc2d0f304394efca09d45163a1c1944\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: We don\u2019t think it is, and she keeps on talking about \u201CI\u2019ve invested this in the strategic fund.\u201D She\u2019s only got $20 million in that\u2014she can\u2019t afford it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df3e6766443b46819410ad4fedf34077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293624946050b4229bdaac5585c5ea40b\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220609615cfcb24784931611d0e3123fe0\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s new section 315, Stuart Smith\u2014\u201CEstablishment of polytechnics\u201D\u2014OK\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df3e6766443b46819410ad4fedf34077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f5871ac89a4434381cd423701988c9e\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Perfect\u2014we\u2019ll get some more details.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5315b6a79754847a4be2e0acbbf09de\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of which there\u2019s a number, if you\u2019ll listen up. But that question to the Minister remains: why did you disestablish and go against advice that you received to re-establish something that you don\u2019t have a cost-benefit analysis of? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6ad129fec584dca95f6c4b19cc5f880\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6ad129fec584dca95f6c4b19cc5f880\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Oh my goodness, what a wonderful question: why did I choose to disestablish Te P\u016Bkenga? Let me count the ways. Te P\u016Bkenga: what a failed experiment, what a dreadful example of going with form before function, and what a dreadful way to try to solve a few specific problems in the sector by creating far, far more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003ELet me see: perhaps the issue that it was going to take nearly $1 billion over the next 10 years to have the IT systems made operational is a good place to start. Perhaps the fact that a number of the polytechnics were losing numbers during Te P\u016Bkenga is another good place. Perhaps it\u2019s the fact that the polytech sector under Te P\u016Bkenga did not get back to pre-COVID numbers, with internationals sitting at only a third, when the universities and the schools and the private training establishments were getting back. Perhaps it\u2019s the fact that it was overriding local decisions and stopping things like being able to offer free fees to students, which you would think a left-wing party would be pleased about for students. Perhaps taking away the innovation and all the successful things that local regions did is a good reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EThere are a lot of reasons why Te P\u016Bkenga was not the answer, and I have reflected on how this happened. I\u2019ve really reflected on it, and, look, I feel quite sorry for the members who are here today having to try and defend this. They have been thrown under the bus by their leader because, remember, this mess was set up by the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins. It followed on from the mess in the police and in health and in COVID, and what did they do? They made him the leader. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EThis is a mess that was created by the leader of the Labour Party, and these poor members\u2014and look, they are genuine. Shanan Halbert is very genuine. He spent some time with Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa, a wonderful institution\u2014TWOA, my good friends in there. He\u2019s spent some time there. He understands the issue in the sector. He has been thrown under the bus in trying to defend the indefensible. I will not try and defend Te P\u016Bkenga. It was form over function, it was uninformed, and two years after it had been formed, it was saying, \u201COops, we\u2019ve forgotten the due diligence to tell you another $1 billion is needed.\u201D I don\u2019t think I need to answer much more on that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u00223090f225aa91489797ee440a0d913cd0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223090f225aa91489797ee440a0d913cd0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, I have been watching. I heard the previous Chair ask people to now get more specific. That was two general debate speeches that I\u2019ve just heard. We are now going to be asking members to speak to the relatively narrow parts of Part 1, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022 data-id=\u0022477d46bf315549cf9b8394452b602b4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022477d46bf315549cf9b8394452b602b4c\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m going to get very specific around clauses 13, 14, 15, and 16, elaborating more on clauses 13, 15, and 16, given the guidance that the previous Chair has already issued around the idea of Te Tiriti and M\u0101ori representation in the legislation. I will focus most of my contribution on clauses 13, 15, and 16, but I\u2019ll touch lightly on clause 14 just for completion\u2019s sake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EMy wider questioning around this is informed by why there are differences in the legislation that will govern institutes of technology and polytechnics (ITP) versus the legislation that governs university councils. For example, I\u2019ll turn to clause 13, which is around the membership of councils. Now, if you look at the parent section, section 276, \u201CMembers of council\u201D for the university sector, it says that institutions can be between eight and 12 council members, but for the polytech sector, which is governed by section 317, polytechs can have between six and eight council members. So my question is: how did that number of six to eight get arrived at, as opposed to the membership of university councils, which can be eight to 12 members? We know that some universities will be smaller than some polytechnics, so I don\u2019t think it\u2019s necessarily to do with size. Why has this specific number of six to eight for polytech councils been arrived at?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EThere are other provisions for membership of councils that are referred to in this legislation\u2014for example, in the section around appointment of council members in section 278 of the parent legislation, it talks about wider sets of requirements, including election processes\u2014this is now clause 15 of the bill. But if you look at the clause for the polytech sector, which is section 320, it doesn\u2019t make reference to potential elected members, and so my thinking around that is this. Is the Minister thinking that this legislation precludes the appointment of members that are elected by an appointment process, because I don\u2019t see this in the legislation versus the legislation that exists with the university councils. Is it expected that they\u2019re all appointed, or is there going to be provision made for potential elected members who are then appointed to their ITP councils? As I\u2019ve said, it\u2019s not currently in the legislation, but it is in the legislation that governs the university councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EObviously, I do have some Amendment Papers that would directly put elected members from students and staff representatives on the student council, but my thinking is that this legislation as currently drafted doesn\u2019t actually have any provision for an elected member who is then later appointed to the council. That is provided for in the parent legislation, which only governs university councils at this stage because the polytech sector is excluded from it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EThen my final question is on clause 16, which amends section 281, \u201CDuties of councils\u201D, which is to do with the university council legislation. This is something that I do want to give the Minister some kudos over in that in the section to do with polytechs, the additional duties of polytechs makes reference to the need for polytechs to collaborate with other polytechnics to use resources effectively to avoid duplicating efforts, and so it is potentially moving the polytech sector to a more collaborative model. If that\u2019s good enough for the polytech sector, why not also require the university sector to work in a collaborative manner, because I do think it\u2019s important that the wider tertiary education sector works in a more collaborative fashion. So why are there differences in clauses 13, 14, 15, and 16 in the bill between university councils and polytechnic councils, and I\u2019m particularly interested in the answer relating to clause 15, around the ITPs making provisions to, potentially, have elected members on there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcc01d790bb34beb8f3bc7c73670610b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcc01d790bb34beb8f3bc7c73670610b\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the member Francisco Hernandez for those sensible questions, and I\u2019m happy to traverse those. The numbers have changed over time. Twenty-odd years ago, there were 20 on a council. They were pretty unruly, and it was hard to get things done. Polytechnics, I think, are known for being collaborative, nimble, and agile. I don\u2019t think university councils have ever been accused of being that but it\u2019s important for the polytechnics that they are. They\u2019re smaller and they need to be able to react quickly to industry, and so we\u2019re giving some choice, again, to the local communities to decide\u2014rather than have a Minister decide\u2014what size they should be. Anywhere between six and eight is generally accepted as a good working board or council that will be able to represent the community but also be agile and nimble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIn terms of the members other than those appointed by the Minister: of course, if it\u2019s seven or eight, four will be appointed by the Minister; and if it\u2019s six, three will be; and the other members are to come from the community, and the council will make a decision as to how that will occur. In the past, they have formed statutes and they\u2019ve been different for each institution, and I would expect that, again, they will be different, and so they won\u2019t exclude any of the representation that you\u2019ve said from staff or from students or from iwi. Their statute can determine that, and so, again, it\u2019s giving choice to the local polytechnic to do what is right for their local community. It\u2019s not spelt out, but it certainly doesn\u2019t exclude that from happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIn terms of collaboration, absolutely\u2014look, the polytech sector has been collaborative for many years, and it\u2019s something of a myth that they haven\u2019t been. The first nursing degrees were brought about through collaboration. The Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori member previously talked about the Nelson Marlborough Institute of Technology and the Southern Institute of Technology. They worked really closely together on a number of things in the post-graduate area. The member Shanan Halbert was from Te Wananga o Aotearoa (TWOA). He knows that for 20 years, TWOA worked with a number of polytechnics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EThe polytech sector is collaborative by necessity. There is no point in trying to reinvent the wheel on a number of things, but\u2014you\u2019re quite right\u2014we want to encourage it further\u2014hence the reference to it here; hence the federation, which allows that collaboration in order to have better service, better academic delivery and better financial outcomes for those that are struggling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EAbsolutely, I agree that collaboration is necessary in the sector. This legislation facilitates that. I thank the member for that very sensible question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecc7506f40054a85ae12d57365db37e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecc7506f40054a85ae12d57365db37e3\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to take the opportunity to take a call in this committee stage\u2014my first opportunity. I just want to ask\u2014and I won\u2019t take a full call\u2014a very specific question around clause 7, which amends section 267 and looks at amending the main Education and Training Act 2020 in relation to the clause on academic freedom. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003EMy question is this. First of all, I think\u2014and it\u2019ll be good to hear the Minister\u2019s response to this\u2014academic freedom at polytechnics, as well as other tertiary institutions, is of utmost importance, and that\u2019s one of the founding principles within the education system. In the Education and Training Act, as it is currently, with the provisions in relation to Te P\u016Bkenga which this bill removes, there is a change from including a specific clause relating to polytechnics, which in the current Act is, I understand, section 318, to, in the Minister\u2019s bill, which is in clause 7 in Part 1, which is amending section 267\u2014it essentially puts academic freedom back into the primary academic freedom clause that applies to w\u0101nanga and universities, as well. My understanding is\u2014this is a genuine question\u2014that the current situation is we have an academic freedom clause in the existing Act which applies to w\u0101nanga and universities, and we have an academic freedom clause which is specifically spelling out the academic freedom requirements in relation to Te P\u016Bkenga, which currently includes polytechnics. The Minister for Vocational Education has decided, or is proposing under this bill, to take away that specific clause and put it back into the main clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003EMy question is: why is that? Is that simply for the simplicity of the legislation\u2014that would be a sufficient answer if that was the reason\u2014and I\u2019d just like to get some guarantees from her that there is nothing lost in relation to the relatively extensive academic freedom provisions in section 318 which are currently in the Act, because, as I\u2019m sure the Minister will say in her response, this is of utmost importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003EI also note that we are only on clause 7 in Part 1, which is about 41 pages long, and so there are a number of very specific provisions which have not been discussed at all in this committee stage that cover the substantive part of this bill. I would just note that. My contribution and my question is on one of those clauses, but there are a number of clauses that have not been traversed at all in relation to that bill, and so I look forward to hearing the Minister\u2019s answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u00220ec12ad070e64ce9854345ea2d5b611d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ec12ad070e64ce9854345ea2d5b611d\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, and I\u2019ll answer very briefly. It absolutely ensures that polytechnics are included. It includes universities, polytechnics, and w\u0101nanga, with regard to academic freedom, and so there is no issue at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022 data-id=\u002214f65848262c4224a07083f5e3c93714\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214f65848262c4224a07083f5e3c93714\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to talk about new sections 314 and 315 in clause 22, which are to do with the characteristics and establishment of polytechnics. I have a couple of specific questions about those provisions, but I just wanted to note that the establishment of the polytechs is really the heart of the entire enterprise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003EI just want to quote Civil Contractors New Zealand, the peak body of one of the most important industries in New Zealand, and it is an industry that is heavily reliant on a pipeline of trained workers to make that industry hum. They said to the Education and Workforce Committee in their submission that at no point was anyone able to articulate the problem that the reforms solved. They said they were very worried about the future funding of vocational education: \u201CThroughout the process, no one has been able to articulate the problem that they are trying to solve. We have consistently heard that the structures arising from [Labour\u2019s] reforms were not delivering for industry, and that the cost of the structure was unreasonable and prohibitive. In our view, neither statement is correct.\u201D They further went on to say, \u201CWe are deeply concerned the further reduction in funding proposed places our ability to train our future workforce at risk.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003ENow, in relation to sections 314 and 315 and the creation of the new architecture, I would really like to hear the Minister\u2019s response to that very important peak body and what they said to the select committee about the creation of the new polytechs, and I\u2019m keen to know in relation to section 314 why there is nothing in there in the description of the characteristics about the role that polytechs play in alleviating skills and workforce shortages. I would have thought that that was absolutely core to these institutions, and, in addition\u2014and other colleagues have mentioned this already this morning in relation to other provisions\u2014the very important role that polytechs play in providing pastoral care for the students enrolled in their institutions. Is that not a core characteristic of these institutions? I\u2019m keen to hear from the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u00222a15e7a57630473d88da78067b1ec69c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a15e7a57630473d88da78067b1ec69c\u0022\u003E PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m not sure what part of the legislation the member is reading, because I would have thought that new section 314, \u201CCharacteristics of polytechnics\u201D, in clause 22, which says that \u201C(b) they are predominantly involved in providing continuing education that responds to the education and training needs of local communities and industries in their regions;\u201D, was doing exactly that. It is addressing any school shortages that are in the regions and addressing the needs of the industries in their community, and so I\u2019m very confident that we\u2019ve got that covered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIn regard to the comments from Civil Contractors New Zealand, the chief executive of Civil Contractors New Zealand, Alan Pollard\u2014Alan has his own inimitable way of expressing himself, and I enjoy conversations with him. I enjoy conversations with the wider civil contractor industry, which I keep in contact with regularly, and I\u2019m delighted that Alan is one of the establishment advisory group members of one of our information skills boards. It\u2019s wonderful to have him there supporting this whole new development as it goes forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u002283b269cfb85f41c28991de9f721c4625\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283b269cfb85f41c28991de9f721c4625\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In line with your direction, I am going to speak to new section 315, and particularly new subsection (3)(a), in clause 22, in regard to the regions served by the polytechs, and, as we know, this legislation establishes a structure that still aims to serve learners across Aotearoa New Zealand. When I think about the impact of this legislation on regional communities, I am highly concerned. One of my colleagues said to me, when she received the library pack, that it\u2019s quite easy to do a speech on this in opposition because there are so many negative stories that have come out as a result, but beneath the politics of this, it is about learners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that one of the three goals of this is around access to learning for people that live in regional communities, and I just don\u2019t see how this legislation achieves that. I will start at NorthTec. NorthTec is going to become half of what it was\u2014half of what it was. It will see courses cancelled in the further-out parts of Northland like Kaikohe and Kait\u0101ia. Marae-based programmes\u2014those will have to be peeled back. It\u2019s going to see the closure of its main campus in Whang\u0101rei, as an example, for it to be relocated somewhere else\u2014is that not correct, Minister? You\u2019re looking perplexed. I hope that you\u2019ll be able to clarify that in your response, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EI looked at Eastern Institute of Technology. While it\u2019s an OK set-up for people living in Hawke\u2019s Bay, I\u2019m really concerned about Tair\u0101whiti and Gisborne, and about programmes offered in Wairoa. What happens to those regional communities? We\u2019ve seen Tokoroa and Taup\u014D impacted by this legislation. While in Tokoroa, the Minister thinks she may have saved the campus, there\u2019s still significant job losses and, as a result, over consecutive years we will see less learning opportunities in smaller communities like Tokoroa, which have already been heavily impacted. Taup\u014D is the same, and we\u2019re seeing a campus closure there. We see WelTec, Whitireia, and UCOL, where we\u2019re seeing a downsizing of courses and programmes available to learners in our most regional and remote communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EThat is inequitable, Minister. You\u2019ve made a commitment to achieving better outcomes than Te P\u016Bkenga did for those learners. What better outcome is there than sharing access to learning opportunities? Online learning is not the only vehicle by which people engage in learning opportunities, and you haven\u2019t offered the specificity that we need to assure us and give us confidence that this legislation is going to retain access for regional learners and actually going to have p\u016Btea\u2014money\u2014available to invest in those learners, because you are committed to having a 1:18 student ratio. Tell me how that is achievable in those remote communities in the number of programmes that we need\u2014that doesn\u2019t stack up. We\u2019re missing the financial information still. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EThose are the answers that I\u2019m looking for from you. How does this legislation better serve learners in our most regional communities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u00221a84164bfd3c434ba09d9c022d80f7fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a84164bfd3c434ba09d9c022d80f7fd\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, and that\u2019s a great question, Shanan Halbert, because it is at the heart of what we are doing here. Centralisation, where all of the decisions had to be made by a central entity that was supposed to be in Hamilton but was actually in Auckland\u2014allowing those sorts of decisions to be made locally is incredibly important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI do want to address the specific question that you\u2019ve asked around NorthTec because we have got that wonderful group of community leaders there that are working very hard to try and get a much better, newer, fit for purpose campus for NorthTec. I am very happy to be working with them, and if the community can get on board and get that to happen, what a wonderful thing it will be for NorthTec. I\u2019m happy to be working with them on that, and, again, it\u2019s the community driving a solution for their local community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003ELook, I absolutely accept what the member has said about the importance of those small rural regions. I was over in Wairoa after the floods there and I met with a lovely young man who had trained through the Eastern Institute of Technology to be a builder. I heard of the work that he was doing with his extended wh\u0101nau there, and I really want to acknowledge how wonderful builders are in a situation like that and how important it is to have that kind of provision. That was exactly what drove me around the strategically important funding in order to put that in place while I can work on adjusting the funding system which I have inherited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI have had to make some changes because the unified funding system that had been put in was so disastrous, but I was trying to get recognition of exactly that\u2014and the member is completely correct. That is why in a place like Telford, you can\u2019t put 18 students who are trying to learn how to shear a sheep or drive a four-wheeler in front of one tutor. You must have flexibility around those ratios, and that\u2019s exactly why I have sought that additional funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIt is to hold on to those strategically important geographic regions\u2014particularly those remote rural regions but also those strategically important industry areas\u2014and nowhere is more important than in the Far North, where we\u2019ve got the highest number of NEETs anywhere in the country. That is exactly why NorthTec will be receiving the largest amount of any of the polytechnics\u2014$3.648 million a year over the next two years\u2014to ensure that they can keep that important provision going. I know how much we must ensure access in those regions. That is the pathway to employment for those young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022200839810eb94155be7306bf21d350dd\u0022 data-id=\u00223e781330fd114583911db986bb5a4815\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022200839810eb94155be7306bf21d350dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e781330fd114583911db986bb5a4815\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u002274faa278402b4771be8dfddb255062bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274faa278402b4771be8dfddb255062bd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Now, I\u2019m aware that there is a lot in this bill, but we are still getting bogged down in relatively local parts of that, and so I\u2019m looking for new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3a87faca91c42e090cda305bfd73670\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3a87faca91c42e090cda305bfd73670\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. You\u2019ll get new material. My question is around a part of new section 319 in clause 22, which concerns the chairperson and appointment of deputy chairperson, and which hasn\u2019t been addressed yet. Prior to that, I also have a question on the numbers that the Minister has been saying throughout this debate. She said that NorthTec has gotten around $3.68 million and, earlier, that the Eastern Institute of Technology has got $1.55 million. If the Minister could provide a specific breakdown of how much each polytech is getting, that would help assure members, I think. I would like a breakdown of how much institutes of technology and polytechnics (ITPs) are getting from the strategic fund, and I\u2019m bringing this up only because the Minister is engaging with questions around the funding issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll return to new section 319, around the appointment of the chairperson and deputy chairperson. At the moment, as written, the legislation says that \u201CThe Minister may, by written notice to the member concerned, dismiss the chairperson or deputy chairperson from office as chairperson or deputy chairperson.\u201D The Minister may also appoint the chairperson and deputy chairperson from among the members of the polytechnic. My question is: why in section 319(1), instead of using the word \u201Cmust\u201D, does it use the word \u201Cmay\u201D? Is there any thinking that the Minister might potentially appoint a chairperson and deputy chairperson who is not currently among the membership of the ITP in concern? I\u2019m just curious why it\u2019s the word \u201Cmay\u201D that\u2019s been used as opposed to the word \u201Cmust\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EI also have what I think is a constructive Amendment Paper that will require the Minister to consult with the members of the ITP in question before appointing a chairperson and deputy chairperson. My theory is that if the chairperson and deputy chairperson are the ones who are supposed to be leading the council, I think it makes perfect sense for the Minister to consult the members of the ITP concerned on who their chairperson and deputy chairperson might be, because the members might know something about the person that the Minister might want to appoint as chairperson and deputy chairperson that she doesn\u2019t necessarily know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EAgain, with the potential to dismiss the chairperson or deputy chairperson, I think it\u2019s also important to consult and require the majority approval of the ITP in question before, essentially, removing a chairperson or deputy chairperson, because I do think there have been concerns articulated by submitters during the submission process that the Minister has a lot of power within this legislation to appoint council members. You\u2019ll see that in an earlier section\u2014section 317\u2014she will be appointing up to half of the current polytech council. In the current set-up, the Minister has a lot of power to set the composition of the council, and I acknowledge that that is taken from the legislation that established university councils. I think a potential check and balance to that power would be\u2014and this is in my Amendment Paper\u2014to require the consultation and the consent of the majority of the council before appointing a chairperson and deputy chairperson and before removing them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: will the Minister consider the Amendment Paper that I have proposed requiring consultation and the consent of the membership of the ITP board before appointing and removing chairpersons and deputy chairpersons, and why is it not currently in the legislation to require consultation with the ITP council, which she would be appointing half of anyway? She will have quite strong influence on the council members appointed anyway, and so why is it not currently in the legislation and will she consider my proposed change to change that so that there can be more responsiveness to local communities and also some local input on the Minister\u2019s decision? Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe31acf2fa944940836691d35aa86f36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe31acf2fa944940836691d35aa86f36\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Francisco Hernandez again for his very specific and sensible question. Look, it is described as \u201Cmay\u201D, but it is, effectively, mandatory because the chair will be appointed. It\u2019s not about bringing someone in from outside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI have read the member\u2019s Amendment Paper. I don\u2019t think that it\u2019s necessary. I believe that in terms of removing a chair, there\u2019s quite a lot of consultation and work that has to go on. It\u2019s not something that a Minister would do without really significant engagement with that council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EAt the very start, the member asked for the information that I\u2019ve been quoting from. Absolutely, it\u2019s publicly available. I\u2019m happy for you to get a copy of it, and so thank you for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7770b6347dd40b48806eeea4425f97b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7770b6347dd40b48806eeea4425f97b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. I have quick questions for the Minister around section 315, \u201CEstablishment of polytechnics\u201D, in clause 22. I\u2019m curious as to why the provisions in the bill don\u2019t have more to say specifically about the imperative to take advice or consult on the needs of a particular region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003ECurrently, in section 315(2), the Minister must \u201C(a) seek advice from NZQA on quality assurance matters \u2026 (b) consult other persons or bodies that the Minister thinks fit;\u201D\u2014that\u2019s very open-ended\u2014\u201C(c) take into account the characteristics of a polytechnic; and\u201D\u2014crucially\u2014\u201C(d) be satisfied that the establishment of the polytechnic is in the interests of the tertiary education system and the nation as a whole.\u201D But what about the particular region? If I think about West Auckland, it\u2019s a part of the city with very particular demographic characteristics. We have a young, large working-class population. We have real transport challenges that create barriers for our young people to get access to jobs, and education and training opportunities, and I\u2019m sure that if you look at any particular region, there would be particular characteristics. So why doesn\u2019t section 315 require that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested in what advice the Minister had about whether or not the interests of a region where polytechs could be established are important for consideration in that provision. Why are the interests of those regions not actually something that the Minister is required to take into account when she issues one of these orders, and why is there not, for example, in paragraph (b) the requirement to consult, for example, local institutions, regional industry groups, local community organisations, and iwi and hap\u016B? Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u00227ebb8963499f4a34a04ffb9071c009ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ebb8963499f4a34a04ffb9071c009ba\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll be very brief because, as the member has pointed out, new section 315(2)(b), in clause 22, covers that with that very open phrase \u201Cconsult other persons or bodies that the Minister thinks fit;\u201D. It opens the door to consult with all of those entities that the member brought forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022 data-id=\u00228ab17a1c7da04679951179c5d6215986\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ab17a1c7da04679951179c5d6215986\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just wanted to follow up, and I\u2019ve got a new point that I want to ask the Minister for Vocational Education about. It\u2019s about new section 289(7) in clause 20 in relation to Crown observers, and also the operative clause, which is new section 341J in clause 22, which will be the new section of the of the bill once it becomes an Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the section I want to focus on, but I want to draw a parallel with the question I asked around academic freedom. In that question\u2014which the Minister did address, but I feel that perhaps it would be good to get some advice on some other aspects of that question. In that particular situation to do with academic freedom, we had a removal of a specific clause in relation to polytechnics and polytechnics being put in together with w\u0101nanga and universities, and I agree that the Minister\u2019s response is correct\u2014I\u2019ve not contested that academic freedom applies to all of those. That meant that that specific provision in relation to polytechnics specifically was put into the general provision, and so I wanted to know why that was. I think that she said that it applies, but I would be grateful if there was a further elucidation on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003EThe question I want to ask in this contribution, though, is in relation to Crown observers. We\u2019ve had the opposite legislative drafting happening here, as I can see it. Essentially, in the main Act, the Education and Training Act, the current section 289(7) doesn\u2019t apply, but section 341J does apply. So if we go to the new section 341J, which is in Part 1\u2014which is what we\u2019re considering\u2014this provides for the Minister to be able to appoint a Crown observer. This is specific to a polytechnic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003EThis is the opposite situation where we do have a specific polytechnic clause which has been put in that may differ\u2014and that\u2019s a question for the Minister\u2014in relation to how Crown observers may interact with other types of institutions. That\u2019s the first question. Why has a specific polytechnic clause been put into this new bill and what is the purpose of that, and I\u2019m just noting that it\u2019s different for that academic freedom section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003EThe other question that I have is in relation specifically to new section 341J(3). When a Crown\u2014I mean, obviously, this is not a situation where it is desirable to appoint a Crown observer. But we have to acknowledge\u2014especially with the disestablishment of Te P\u016Bkenga, I would say that this is a real possibility in some instances, when we do have these independent institutions\u2014that to be prudent in some situations where there are issues with how an institution is being managed, it may need a Crown observer to be put in place. The Minister has put forward a specific process, and that does involve consulting with the council of that polytechnic and, essentially, getting their feedback on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003ENow, I just wanted to know from the Minister whether in relation to this section, the word \u201Cconsulted\u201D\u2014I mean, essentially, this part says that when the Crown observer is to be considered by the Minister, the Minister must tell the polytechnic that she, in this instance, is considering implementing a Crown observer and get their feedback on that, or get their comment on that proposal. I imagine\u2014and it would be good to get your feedback on this, Minister\u2014that it may be that the council says, \u201CNo, Minister. We don\u2019t need a Crown observer. We\u2019re totally fine.\u201D Surely, there will be instances where the Minister has a firm view, and there is nothing that the council can say to dissuade the Minister that there needs to be some outside intervention into this council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224781da7e0ee64557a3bcb565f241de8e\u0022\u003EI just want to ask if the word \u201Cconsult\u201D is the correct word. I imagine this will be something that the Minister would want to act quickly upon if it did occur, and I think we need to be future-looking with this because this will be in place for all of these polytechnics. Those are just a few questions on the legislative drafting, and then the operation of that specific clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022510aa5e008fa4674bb7ca8aadbe75ffb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022510aa5e008fa4674bb7ca8aadbe75ffb\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. It\u2019s very good to be discussing this because, of course, this mirrors the legislation for Te P\u016Bkenga. I\u2019m a great believer in nothing is all good or all bad, and so I\u2019ve been prepared to look at what was put in place for Te P\u016Bkenga by that member Camilla Belich\u2019s party when it was in Government. I\u2019ve seen this and thought that it\u2019s wonderful to have early intervention and to have different stages of intervention, because the worst thing possible is to allow a polytechnic to keep going and getting itself more and more in trouble and racking up huge amounts of debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI looked at what had been put in place for Te P\u016Bkenga by the member\u2019s party when it was in Government. I thought that it looked sensible, and thought that I\u2019d pick that up because it looks a good thing to put in here to ensure that there\u2019s various stages of intervention to stop polytechnics getting themselves into major strife. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u00226bbc0820443c441fb9c5d9fcd265e2ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bbc0820443c441fb9c5d9fcd265e2ad\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I am continuing on new section 315 in clause 22, and I now want to move to new section 315(4), which says that \u201CBefore recommending that the polytech is specified as an anchor polytechnic, the Minister must be satisfied that the polytechnic is able to perform the role of an anchor polytechnic specified\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve spoken very clearly around my concerns about insufficient information when it comes to the finances of setting up this structure that the legislation proposes. I appreciate, Minister, that you are being very responsive to the questions\u2014that\u2019s really helpful in this committee stage, and so thank you\u2014but you are talking about some of the costs of Te P\u016Bkenga. You\u2019re talking about costs as an example of funding via the strategic fund to particular polytechnics. What I would like to hear from you is what advice you have received around the shared costs, and I acknowledge that Treasury has advised you against this\u2014they\u2019ve highlighted the risks financially for this particular structure. That was some time ago, and so I\u2019d be really keen to hear the centre of that. What advice are you receiving around the actual costs and funding that you need to establish this particular model for the 10-plus other polytechnics? Just polytechnics alone in this instance\u2014what advice have you received?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u00225d69dc2539074db783182e4a57aaf389\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d69dc2539074db783182e4a57aaf389\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Shanan Halbert again for some very sensible questions around this, particularly around the anchor polytechnics\u2014the federation. The federation model isn\u2019t new. It\u2019s used in a number of countries. It was actually suggested to the previous Government when they set up Te P\u016Bkenga that the federation model would be a good model. A number of submissions were made on that, and I wonder if the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins sometimes reflects and wishes he\u2019d gone down that track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EHowever, I think that the questions that have been asked are very fair in terms of what we are doing to ensure that each individual polytechnic is in the best financial position it can be to be set up. That was work that, of course, happened over those 18 months of getting that sustainable pathway for each individual polytechnic. That has been done by polytechnic\u2014not by sector, but by polytechnic\u2014and that is why we\u2019re doing it in tranches. The 10 that have got that pathway\u2014they know that; they have that. The senior management team has that, the Establishment Advisory Group appointments have that, and they are working through that. In terms of the four that are left, they are sitting in Te P\u016Bkenga as we work through that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re also working through the recapitalisation process, because\u2014as I mentioned when the member for Taieri, Ingrid Leary, talked about the Otago situation\u2014there are some that have big debt, and I don\u2019t want them set up with big debt. That is setting them up to fail, so we\u2019re working through that recapitalisation process. The member will be aware that some have got some pretty significant issues there, and it\u2019s important that we address those issues and get that debt out of the road so that they start from a strong, stable set of finances when they start. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EThe other matter was around the strategic funding. That has been put in there to recognise that we do have to do some work. I\u2019m sure the member himself will know from the time that he was in the sector that we do need to do some work to be more nuanced around those areas where you can\u2019t have the 1:18 ratio, which is kind of the golden metric of whether a course is financially viable or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003ETreasury\u2019s advice was interesting over the period of time. We got that advice at different periods of time, and over the last 18 months, things have changed as the institutions have got stronger and more viable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI just want to really assure the member because I know he\u2019s genuine in asking these questions. I want to assure the member that we have no intention of setting polytechnics up that are not in the best possible financial state they can be in, in order to give them an absolute chance to be successful going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280066feb1e7b4e66a4eed97a83c193e5\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bbd3172d4064ec5b051918afe3ad286\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u002243dc608da2d143938ab8e5fcff8fd2c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243dc608da2d143938ab8e5fcff8fd2c3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: San\u2014Francisco Hernandez.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022 data-id=\u002267ee8c6517af4f9f92d2f9be78e50755\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267ee8c6517af4f9f92d2f9be78e50755\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. We nearly got our two names merged together there! I\u2019ll turn to some specific questions around some specific clauses. I have one around new section 328, \u201CDuties of Federation Committee\u201D, in clause 22. I\u2019d be interested in hearing a definition around that language around new section 328(1)(b): \u201Cact in the interests of federation polytechnics provided that action is not detrimental to the interests of an anchor polytechnic;\u201D. Who\u2019ll judge whether an action is detrimental to the interests of an anchor polytechnic, and is there a specific definition around what \u201Cdetrimental\u201D might mean in this context? I think it\u2019d be good to get a clarification of that because that is really essential to the idea of what federation polytechs and anchor polytechs are, and their not being able to harm each other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EThen I\u2019ll turn to new section 337, \u201CRole of anchor polytechnic\u201D, in clause 22\u2014first, around new section 337(2) around the conditions of an anchor polytechnic declining to provide or ceasing to provide relevant services. Does the anchor polytechnic, basically, have free rein to activate these clauses if they want to? Is there no mechanism whereby their decision to cease providing these services, if they want to, can be challenged as long as the provisions under paragraphs (a), (b), and (c) can be met, and if there are provisions to challenge that, who will be the one judging that challenge? Is it the Minister, is it the Tertiary Education Commission, or is it the dispute resolution mechanism under new section 330 in clause 22, mentioned earlier in the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll turn now to new section 339 in clause 22, which is around the designation and removal of federation polytechnics. There is a requirement under here to consult the polytechnic before either adding or removing their designation for removal, and I do have an Amendment Paper tabled here. I was wondering whether the Minister might consider using stronger language, and so rather than the Minister just \u201Cconsult\u201D the polytechnic which has been considered for designation or removal, the Minister would \u201Crequire\u201D its consent, because I do think the Minister was rightly upset about some polytechnics under the Te P\u016Bkenga model being forcibly amalgamated into that entity against the will of the communities in the local regions and the students they served. So my Amendment Paper would prevent that from happening under this model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EEssentially, if the Minister doesn\u2019t strengthen the language around consultation and upgrade it to requiring the consent of the polytechnic, I think she\u2019s, essentially, leaving the door open for Te P\u016Bkenga to be re-established, which she has said that she doesn\u2019t want to do. Like a future Government could just fold the polytechnics into the federation again, and then rename the federation as Te P\u016Bkenga, if it wanted to. Will the Minister consider upgrading the requirement from consultation to requiring the consent of the communities? In that way this Government does have some safeguards against Te P\u016Bkenga being re-established again, although I do note that Opposition members, including the Leader of the Opposition, have already committed to not re-establishing it again, but it does create a legislative safeguard to prevent that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003EThose are my questions that I\u2019ve asked so far. Again, it\u2019s around new sections 328, 337, and 339. I\u2019m keenly looking forward to answers from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u00220e8dee798b424c7aab8ed1d53212db29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e8dee798b424c7aab8ed1d53212db29\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you to the member again for asking such sensible and specific questions. It\u2019s a pleasure to answer them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIn terms of the paragraph (b) in new section 328(1) in clause 22, which says, \u201Cact in the interests of federation polytechnics provided that action is not detrimental to the interests of an anchor polytechnic;\u201D\u2014and, indeed, new section 337(2)\u2014these provisions came from the good work that the Education and Workforce Committee did in ensuring that the legislation was fit for purpose. When I looked at what examples there might be, I could think of, for example, where there were polytechnics that wanted the anchor polytechnic to develop a particular course, but it was going to cost the anchor polytechnic a lot of money and divert them from other development, and that is where this might come into play. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EThe essence, though, of the federation\u2014and this is how I think the member can look at it\u2014is that this is not a head office telling individual institutions what they can do; this is a collective. This is a federation with a committee of representatives from each federation member. It is a collective, making decisions in the best interests, ensuring that the anchor polytechnic doesn\u2019t suffer from the work they might have to do, and ensuring also that the federation polytechnics and the services that are provided to them are not cost-plus, but are only cost recovery. This is putting the fabric in place to ensure that that collaborative work can occur. Whether it\u2019s a very small polytechnic sitting out in a regional area or the large Open Polytechnic, there is equity of decision making. It\u2019s to ensure that each federation polytech is well looked after but, equally, the anchor polytechnic is looked after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIn terms of whether to consent rather than just to consult, can I just say that it\u2019s really, really difficult when a polytechnic gets into that downward spiral, either academically or financially. Sometimes, they don\u2019t see the wood for the trees, and I think that the whole nature of the federation is not punitive. It\u2019s not to punish polytechnics; it\u2019s to support them, and so I think, probably, that the member is underestimating the level of engagement that would go on before you might get to that stage to ensure that the polytechnic understands the areas that they have a deficit in\u2014whether it\u2019s academic or financial\u2014and to ensure that they understand what can be done to help support them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI think there has been a little bit of this talk, and probably the member for Taieri kind of continued that talk. It\u2019s not punitive. The federation is not punitive; it is there to support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5a4b8f1ca49420a89d676a54ac154c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220fe7508c7b8a47378c4c88fe1ce69fcb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5a4b8f1ca49420a89d676a54ac154c6\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Pursuant to that answer, I\u2019m going to ask the Minister a sensible question about, particularly, the Universal College of Learning (UCOL) in Wairarapa. Speaking of the regions served by the anchor polytech, how will the Minister ensure local autonomy in multi-region providers like UCOL Wairarapa, what protections will be in place to prevent populous areas or those perhaps better off economically from dominating, and what will the funding structures be and how are they different from Te P\u016Bkenga? Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c211047fcad44e29927a4fce387fe1c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c211047fcad44e29927a4fce387fe1c1\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I was excited for a moment that we might be talking about tertiary education on the North Shore, but we\u2019re still pretty short. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EThank you, Minister. I want to continue on to new section 324, \u201CPurposes of federation\u201D, in clause 22. This is, in fact, the part that I call the emperor without clothing, because there\u2019s a lot of detail that we haven\u2019t been able to explore throughout the select committee process, and so bear with me on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EBut I particularly come back to new section 324(b): \u201Cenable federated polytechnics to\u2014(i) develop, design, and deliver cost-effective education and training programmes that are consistent with the polytechnics\u2019 characteristics:\u201D. My colleague Cushla Tangaere-Manuel has spoken of one example. The other live example that we\u2019ve fluffed over today is Otago Polytechnic and the awkward arrangement that has been set up there. I guess if we just break down that into form and function\u2014form and function of who is doing what? So, as described by you today, the Otago Polytechnic problem that we\u2019re trying to solve is that it is significantly in debt. I\u2019m not aware that there\u2019s any academic or educational delivery issues, but if there are, I\u2019d encourage you to discuss those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EIf that is the problem we\u2019re trying to solve in that example, under the federation model, who in that set-up is assisting Otago Polytechnic to resolve the financial issue at hand? In the cluster that you\u2019ve established as the anchor polytechnic of the Open Polytechnic, who is the educational delivery partner\u2014that is its core business? It is not the financial partner, as I understand it. So who, therefore, in that live example is offering the fiscal advice to assist Otago Polytechnic to get to a place of sustainability, as required by this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022974d4e820411478ab999fe9754d71efe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022974d4e820411478ab999fe9754d71efe\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll very briefly answer. I thank the member for asking me about the Universal College of Learning and the disbursed provision they have there with Masterton, and particularly Whanganui. I\u2019m delighted to tell the member that I\u2019ve been having ongoing discussions. The very capable MP from that area has been advocating very strongly for, particularly, Whanganui, and I met yesterday with local iwi and they are very excited about being engaged in that sort of hub concept in Whanganui. I think we\u2019ve got some really strong buy-in from the local communities there, and we\u2019re looking at having a bespoke situation for them to ensure that they have plenty of say in what happens there and that they can gather together. Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa is also operating there, so I think that we may see an exciting new model there\u2014again, driven by the enthusiasm of local leaders there. So it\u2019s wonderful to see that because I absolutely get what the member talks about if you were to have one big one dominating another, and we\u2019ve seen that when we\u2019ve seen takeovers by other polytechnics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIn terms of the financial situation for Otago Polytechnic, for example, their council will, of course, be responsible for their financial improvement plan. They have an improvement plan there. They are working towards that and we are looking at what we can do with their debt, and so I\u2019m very confident that we can assist them there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EThe federation is there to enable those shared services where it might provide some financial relief. The greatest financial relief that the federation can provide, of course, is the fact that the Open Polytechnic has 160-odd programmes online that can be available to the other institutions and they won\u2019t have to do the development of them. They can have a combined academic board if they want to, and they can have that combined development that can be shared then across all the institutions. I think it provides some real opportunities for the federation polytechnics to be able to save some of those costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022 data-id=\u002213bd34da82be45939de66fca445033d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227d19573a8ba4d8283b17374978c8ea2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213bd34da82be45939de66fca445033d7\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u00222cab61da25b840ec8e10aeed6a37bacf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cab61da25b840ec8e10aeed6a37bacf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that debate on this question now close. All those in favour, say Aye\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dbbb5a8de4b4442adbec06f30641973\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228669c642081e4826af50a7ddb50bb890\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order\u2014please do not dispute my decision to close. I\u2019ve been watching carefully. I have seen it through and I am aware that there are other questions. However, I\u2019ve made a decision to close and\u2014well, there will be a debate and there\u2019ll be a decision. But if you challenge my decision to close, please don\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8044ed3175f4fd0bdd7d54025e7e19f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002233d6c990c64e41428c25aa2fcb7c3bf3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8044ed3175f4fd0bdd7d54025e7e19f\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E That was going to be it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022 data-id=\u0022a82c37ba72ba407c9591265ae37836e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c4943fd1cf914de0befcb7a16280f910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a82c37ba72ba407c9591265ae37836e5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: All right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228d1e969d5be1479481bfd9f2cd9afe91\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u00225d0412ea6b5f4dd0aa8c6e3323dc3188\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d0412ea6b5f4dd0aa8c6e3323dc3188\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 381 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229e7892b7f9664142909d7a9e0eebc871\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc69501b32c94c4d837835adab6536d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc69501b32c94c4d837835adab6536d6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendment deleting clause 4, set out on Amendment Paper 389, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220f93664b09c44753a07033d5eaf4820b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022aedf48e6e54347638d6b27602523073d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aedf48e6e54347638d6b27602523073d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 388 are out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003EThe question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Amendment Paper 386 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002295105226ec2c4eed889dc66147da7e5e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9e4efcfc05a4d4eb1a6ce23ff6dc3d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9e4efcfc05a4d4eb1a6ce23ff6dc3d9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 314, to replace paragraph (a), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224a0cbec550764772b33b70253dba02ae\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022520fcb8a92104933b0bf9b5370943e25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022520fcb8a92104933b0bf9b5370943e25\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 314, to replace paragraph (b), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002260239775b6c44b3f93fed3012c55c325\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9f827b27262416b904471f252859adf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9f827b27262416b904471f252859adf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 314, to replace paragraph (d), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002296746e59b4854515895fbaf098ac6b4d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebca68478d994eb7aec831f5689b31d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebca68478d994eb7aec831f5689b31d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 315(2), to replace paragraph (b), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002217545807ce95444382b6b86b6c33196d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1860d53929d490b8c9f095a9d40411f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1860d53929d490b8c9f095a9d40411f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendment to clause 22 replacing new section 315(2)(b), set out on Amendment Paper 390, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dbd5ff3200de45ed957338a42281e957\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u002274bc1ced226d44b3be4aa01bd1955e2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274bc1ced226d44b3be4aa01bd1955e2e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 315(2), to replace paragraph (d), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d01e774012bd46fea8ed18409467ee00\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5612cd2feae462a8bb1c677a63d150a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5612cd2feae462a8bb1c677a63d150a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendments to clause 22, new sections 316 and 317, set out on Amendment Paper 391, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e387b78ab9924745a7333f0fee35a310\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022436905501f3545ccba2e0cc6195e84b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022436905501f3545ccba2e0cc6195e84b8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendment to clause 22, new section 317, set out on Amendment Paper 382, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002201cbe2ad0d824d2985b8116d3056d1e6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u00227e1ffaacefc047268e081501ecebb0ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e1ffaacefc047268e081501ecebb0ef\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 318, to replace subsection (1), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d22a1f0707054bfb8507e73a09f9f0ab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u002298e34421ae7a4761a5a9e060a3da1461\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298e34421ae7a4761a5a9e060a3da1461\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendment to clause 22, new section 318(2), set out on Amendment Paper 383, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022930611f9fdb94859b7de3ef92e69ad28\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0b5ebedaa1c4fb88f3277154e47e262\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0b5ebedaa1c4fb88f3277154e47e262\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendments to clause 22, new section 319, set out on Amendment Paper 392, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221bdf3738966c4837becf74d1cc61fe33\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5518e29713d4cb2afa1c969a25214e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5518e29713d4cb2afa1c969a25214e1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 321, to replace paragraph (c) is out of order as not offering a serious alternative form of words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003EThe question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 322(1), to replace paragraph (b), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223f2c19d6544e417dae745a48ddf9b4ba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022081a6b8ae57c4e80971d828e1142be44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022081a6b8ae57c4e80971d828e1142be44\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 324, to replace paragraph (a), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002264a706063cb9465984be00b9181f07d1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6b63c63214849768e60d52fe7be6f7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6b63c63214849768e60d52fe7be6f7a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 324(b), to replace subparagraph (i), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002286b41a7f7f5b412490b8433233e807b9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022de7a77da52b74c32a90704fdc72d5952\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de7a77da52b74c32a90704fdc72d5952\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendment to clause 22, new section 326(1), set out on Amendment Paper 393, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f1b315faa7c04c488a9f8ff2de3b4a4b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u00226fa27f37759c44fa9bc333e7fec9405e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fa27f37759c44fa9bc333e7fec9405e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 337(2), to replace paragraph (c), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e506fbb7e56146d6a9dd26c4b1806c98\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u002230cd3e160e744589ba7bd3c90803c916\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230cd3e160e744589ba7bd3c90803c916\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendment to clause 22, new section 339, set out on Amendment Paper 385, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223f74bddea11e41448353d986b70be856\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a144a1639c2042d28652746f25c4ddbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a144a1639c2042d28652746f25c4ddbf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendment to clause 22, new section 339, set out on Amendment Paper 394, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f08be718a97841569015fa4b719d8520\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1fad2da95f14e8cbf79ae73b1d93332\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1fad2da95f14e8cbf79ae73b1d93332\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 339(2), to replace paragraph (d), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229305776989514adc9bcc6704a49f3daf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b95a8874122b4ee39ef48e800ce211aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b95a8874122b4ee39ef48e800ce211aa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 339(6), to replace paragraph (a), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022eb7721402dc84e1981204827578a8687\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4be89669d214911973defe70dc9c5c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4be89669d214911973defe70dc9c5c3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 339(6)(c), to replace subparagraph (ii), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022275d6bf58b1f46dbbc040a34994a4e42\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u002226309bf225b749c09103487c5d400d0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226309bf225b749c09103487c5d400d0e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 340, to replace subsection (2), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ae7fd98effe84bac8b00705c2fe3e4f4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u00221f5a0d3b626a4a1bb370becec1c5ea2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f5a0d3b626a4a1bb370becec1c5ea2d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 341B, to replace subsection (4), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002246d0b97c7d8c434e895ded1cab87803f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022fda1953ed29241e7b1942b7dae5932d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fda1953ed29241e7b1942b7dae5932d0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendment to clause 22, new section 341H, set out on Amendment Paper 396, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224b813955e752462795066b3899ae99e1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022eca2796c978149758544ca5aca0d6d56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eca2796c978149758544ca5aca0d6d56\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 341M(1), to replace paragraphs (a) and (b), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022518284224fa54c07a52a3b5c6b8bf1ba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u00222f5f18bba6d34f96aed3b25712d5face\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f5f18bba6d34f96aed3b25712d5face\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I put the next question, can we have a bit more enthusiasm in calling the Ayes and Noes so that we can get some clarity on the voice votes. I can let the committee know we\u2019re on to the last page, so we\u2019re nearly there, folks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003EThe question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendment to clause 22, new section 341P, set out on Amendment Paper 397, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fcb2f2f69ec84bc5ac4d1f43c270078b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5a8fc1fb7b747dcad84bc9df93885ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5a8fc1fb7b747dcad84bc9df93885ad\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 22, new section 341P(3), to replace paragraph (a), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222f3008516ba34929a1333e1b4a655376\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u002262e87db49e1c436bac4320785a2c7688\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262e87db49e1c436bac4320785a2c7688\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendment to clause 23, new section 362, set out on Amendment Paper 384, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002256cdffabb807470e92da401201cb29fe\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u00223da416c7bdb342d6b2c2556754e8dfe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223da416c7bdb342d6b2c2556754e8dfe3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendment to clause 23, new section 364(a)(ii), set out on Amendment Paper 398, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002206ad14cc203f48e4868e415f8cd186d1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022039854c9f09d4b4fb181ee8a16dfd56c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022039854c9f09d4b4fb181ee8a16dfd56c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendment to clause 23, new section 365, set out on Amendment Paper 399, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228ebe4321af464c6792218b7a08e67519\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u002215608292868f46fc9165507202856040\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215608292868f46fc9165507202856040\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendment to clause 23, new section 370, set out on Amendment Paper 395, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022074e915568f746d395da0d70b4465fae\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022128c912e71a9487aae18965ecfa36d12\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022348e3780c24a4637b41bf1f76839459e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022348e3780c24a4637b41bf1f76839459e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Part 2. This is the debate\u2014point of order, the Hon Phil Twyford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022 data-id=\u0022c16bfade39a648209c0d8b3a68d99158\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c16bfade39a648209c0d8b3a68d99158\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chairman. I want to speak to Standing Order 137(3). We felt that the closure motion taken by your predecessor was not reasonable. We thought it was premature\u2014very premature\u2014for a bill of this substance and a lot of really meaty provisions in Part 1. Two hours is not excessive. In fact, it\u2019s modest for a committee of the whole House. I don\u2019t believe that there was excessive repetition, and, in fact, there weren\u2019t warnings that we were going to be cut off. The Opposition members have been trying to work step by step through the substance of Part 1 and we got through, probably, barely half of it. There is a really significant section, Subpart 6, which covers the industry skills boards and apprenticeship training opportunities; we haven\u2019t had a chance to speak to that. We were, I think, really part-way through the provisions around the federation of polytechnics, which is a big and significant and complex area. So to say we are unhappy about what we think was a premature closure is an understatement. I think that it has done a disservice to the quality of this committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003ESo, Mr Chairman, I invite your advice about what we can do about that\u2014what avenues there are to ensure that we get a chance, I think, to properly debate and scrutinise Subpart 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5c622497cb24d12a28c24ab47c1cf2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5c622497cb24d12a28c24ab47c1cf2f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Speaking to the point of order, Suze Redmayne.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f21d6e7334fc4d9aabc5e4d0db81470f\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: We have spent at least 2\u00BD hours on this part, and I\u2019d just like to acknowledge that the previous Chair made it quite clear he\u2019d considered carefully what had gone before and he didn\u2019t want his decision challenged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u00224ed4e802c3cf4d1c979c57fce93db046\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ed4e802c3cf4d1c979c57fce93db046\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Probably the other point\u2014the issue before us, as well\u2014is we\u2019ve just finished the vote, which closes off Part 1. But I will seek some advice from the Clerks, because I do hear the concern here. [Consults with Clerk]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003EI just want to acknowledge the concern expressed by the Hon Phil Twyford, but just, also, to acknowledge that the Chairperson before me did make the call, the closure motion was taken, it was voted on, and then we\u2019ve just gone through 40 minute\u2019s worth of voting on the parts, as well. So, in terms of my ability to provide avenues at this particular point in time, they\u2019re not there. We need to be able to move forward, in terms of the process that we\u2019ve got in front of us right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022 data-id=\u00228d4e0c55cc744d16a51fb0a665f1ff28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d4e0c55cc744d16a51fb0a665f1ff28\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thanks, Mr Chairman. I would like to seek the leave of the committee for Subpart 6 to be allocated a period of time for debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u002240e776b497424fe4a80b953b6221bf6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240e776b497424fe4a80b953b6221bf6b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Leave has not been granted. OK, moving on to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022efbb337560fa4c0ca8519c3abeca54af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efbb337560fa4c0ca8519c3abeca54af\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. Just following on from that, if there would be any grace or ability to\u2014I know we\u2019re moving on to Part 2\u2014have a little bit of leeway, if anything does pop in, from you in terms of that debate and discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f531a8f6758944b0a79744ba6a169f9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f531a8f6758944b0a79744ba6a169f9e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I mean, if it\u2019s attached to Part 2, then that is entirely possible, but you have to draw the link between Part 1 and Part 2 in order for that to happen. Because my understanding is Part 2 is about consequential amendments, so if there are consequential amendments flowing in from Part 1 to Part 2, then make the point in your calls, and then we\u2019ll see if that\u2019s appropriate or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fea583cf89ca47bf8c73fad0b62ee272\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to other legislation and revocation, and Schedule 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u002241b7d63c458b4969a7e2b843e3861b66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241b7d63c458b4969a7e2b843e3861b66\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 40 to 52, \u201CAmendments to other legislation and revocation\u201D, and Schedule 6. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u00221536b951bfd84435a46faafa37b8037b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221536b951bfd84435a46faafa37b8037b\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It is challenging not to have had the opportunity to discuss at length a significant part of the proposed legislation, which is industry skills boards (ISBs). I appreciate that, in depth, we did discuss federation polytechnics, but the other significant component is industry skills boards. So I\u2019m going to do my best to include this in Part 2, in \u201CAmendments to other legislation\u201D, in new section CW 55BAA \u201CFederation of Polytechnics Committee and industry skills boards\u201D, inserted by clause 41.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll start there, because the Minister for Vocational Education will have\u2014you know, this was a significant promise from the Minister to industry, that this legislation would enable them to have more leadership around the future development of workforce, around vocational training, in there, and it\u2019s an area where many, many industry providers are dissatisfied with where this legislation has landed. Only 11 percent of submitters support this legislation\u201411 percent. So, when it comes to looking at the particular parts of industry skills boards, in there is this: the disestablishment of the workforce development councils. Openly, the Minister has been critical of Te P\u016Bkenga overall. I don\u2019t think she has been as critical of workforce development councils, because she will know that that had a lot of improvement, including the development and design of qualifications both at a micro and macro level; that there was a lot of work that was done in that particular piece to ensure that training providers\u2014polytechs\u2014were able to deliver relevant qualifications. And there was a heap of work to be able to do in that particular space to change the way that Kiwis learnt within the vocational sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EIn that is the proposal to disestablish workforce development councils. I accept that, but we have disestablished again, versus tweaked and just transitioned, and the Minister, here in this legislation, has chosen to establish industry skills boards. She\u2019s offered up half the funding in that to industry skills boards, and she\u2019s added on more work for them to be able to do with, essentially, less money to assist them in doing that. She has increased the industry skills boards by two additional boards in comparison to workforce development councils. I\u2019m really keen to understand from her the rationale for that, because more boards also means more expenses, which she isn\u2019t able to fund in that particular instance. How did she come up with that particular list of industry skills boards in there, and what is the allocation of funding to ensure that she is able to support those to be sustainable moving forward?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EHer timelines have ISBs to be established on 1 January 2026. That is not on track to be set up. In addition to that, the Minister of Education\u2014with a passing conversation, as I can see, with the Minister for Vocational Education\u2014has committed her curriculum development to be connected with the ISBs. That\u2019s new information to them, and there hasn\u2019t been consultation with them, or there\u2019s a lack of consultation, even with the Minister for Vocational Education. So I\u2019ll start there, because I would like an explanation about how she\u2019s come up with these decisions for ISBs: the transition to include two additional ISBs, the funding allocated to that, which is only half of what it is\u2014how does she expect an organisation to have the same function of the previous one, to be able to deliver the outcomes that she needs? [Member resumes seat] Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299f1b4ce10a94fe7bbdfadc9fe255680\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Shanan Halbert.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u00220f0015f48bea4b0e857e2068f67958d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f0015f48bea4b0e857e2068f67958d8\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I see that the Minister is not willing to answer that particular question. There has\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f8be58b13bf4a3db0ae9079833a2110\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Keep waiting\u2014she\u2019s pondering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207ba7cc7fe624574be89095da8ed0777\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, she\u2019s pondering; she wants some more. She pretty capable, so I know she has answers to those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EBut the industry skills boards also includes the allocation of apprenticeships, and ISBs are responsible for the future of our apprenticeship scheme in this country. Under her watch, there have been thousands fewer apprentices enrolling in programmes; there\u2019s thousands fewer graduating from the programmes. We\u2019ve explored this previously, but she isn\u2019t explaining how this piece of legislation is going to increase the number of apprentices that we are growing in this country. The Government talks big about their investment in infrastructure, but we do have thousands of people going overseas. That\u2019s not my issue. The issue for the sector here, and this legislation, is: will it produce the number of apprentices that the Minister needs to meet the Government\u2019s expectations around their economic commitments and growing the relevant workforce that they particularly need to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EIn that, as well, there\u2019s the issue where she has shifted work-based learning\u2014as an example\u2014 under ISBs, which is fine. The Motor Industry Training Organisation, as an example, came back and submitted and said she\u2019s actually introduced a two-part process for them, which they don\u2019t need. This is about enabling industry leaders, and so I\u2019d be very keen for her to be able to explain that piece of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a976f8244384831a85b13e6b0bc95c1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I was wondering if the member could help us by pointing us to which clauses and sections\u2014that would help the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022543ac6f1bcd8462ea8e1952145ede11f\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, in my first contribution I did acknowledge that, but in my second I didn\u2019t. So I am referring to Part 2, new section CW 55BAA, \u201CFederation of Polytechnics Committee and industry skills boards\u201D, inserted by clause 41, subsection (1): \u201CAn amount of income derived [from] the Federation\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc80b9ff782343ef8915ed3ce5bc8030\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f7966e53c164260ab9715d34e84747d\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in that particular\u2014ka pai? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EBecause we know that\u2014I go back to the problem that we\u2019re trying to solve, which is the financial viability. Where providers feel let down, industry leaders feel let down, is that the Minister promised\u2014she promised\u2014more industry leadership, but that\u2019s not what this legislation does. I would like her to explain that; explain that in response to comments from Alan Pollard. Why did she not deliver on that promise, and is there a window of opportunity for her to fulfil that promise with a particular amendment in the legislation that is before us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EI\u2019m still keen to hear from her around the funding aspect, and then that will set up a bunch of new questions that will come within that section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdbf723e79b14bd987449d0170aada7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdbf723e79b14bd987449d0170aada7a\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Mr Chair. So I\u2019m referring to Schedule 6, which I understand would fit within Part 2. Yeah. OK, I\u2019m seeing nods. Great. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003ESo, on Schedule 6, I\u2019m looking at page 101 here. This is the line that reads \u201CPlumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act 2006\u201D and replaces section 157 with \u201CMinister may require output agreement to include matters relating to Board\u2019s relationship with industry skills board or workforce development council\u201D. I wanted to ask the Minister for Vocational Education if she would elucidate what her intentions are for that relationship and what that relationship looks like; whether she would have seen that there\u2019s this need for student voice within it as part of that relationship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003EThen I also wanted to understand\u2014particularly since the Education and Workforce Committee briefings that we would have received in hearings with the Minister\u2014how much engagement has the Minister had in relationship to this? I guess this would touch on broader parts of the bill with the Minister for Social Development and Employment in relationship to the goals within the industry skills boards and workforce development councils, and whether the goals that she is pursuing within this bill, and particularly with the changes to the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act 2006, also align with the intended goals of other policy outcomes that the Minister for Social Development and Employment is pursuing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003EOnce again, just in relationship to Schedule 6, Part 1\u2014and I particularly wanted to pick up this area, just because I understand there has been a bit of debate on the nature of the industry skills boards and workforce development councils, which is specifically noted in the replacing of section 157, and so this is, specifically, between lines 10 and 25. So if the Minister would be able to, in relationship to the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act 2006, elucidate what that relationship would look like. What communications, if any, has she had with the Minister for social development since the select committee stage, and would she see the need for voices within the workforce rather than just industry as part of that board and those respective areas noted in Schedule 6? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u00220b37d7c3bb1247f896bcc60c8ef48c8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b37d7c3bb1247f896bcc60c8ef48c8b\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I\u2019m delighted to be talking about the industry skills boards (ISBs) and the incredibly important work that our industry training does with our apprentices, our trainees, and our wonderful tradies across the country. It\u2019s incredibly valuable and incredibly important, and it\u2019s wonderful to have industry back in the driver\u2019s seat with our industry skills boards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act 2006, the ISB for construction also has specialist trades in it. It\u2019s named with that in it because of, I understand, the importance of the specialist trades within that broader picture of construction trades. It\u2019s really important to give them that visibility. I know that the plumbers, gasfitters, and drainlayers have been really instrumental in driving that recognition of the specialist trades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really important that our ISBs set up the vehicle and the structure that enables the voices of those industries so that it isn\u2019t a domination of the biggest industries within the ISBs, but that they hear from all of those industries that are encompassed by an ISB. I thank the member for his question and, yes, certainly the ISBs are being asked to ensure that they have structures in place that enable them to hear the voices of all the trades and all the industries within their ISB.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022dafb1d24a3c442eeb1832cd2634bc293\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dafb1d24a3c442eeb1832cd2634bc293\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m coming back to new section CW 55BAA, inserted by clause 41, and the discussion around workforce development councils (WDCs) and industry skills boards (ISBs).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EMy questions for the Minister: WDCs have been tapering operations for some time now\u2014this is relative to the transition\u2014so how is the Minister going to get from the current state, half of what it was, to the new state? That question is: WDCs have been tapering operations for some time now, but are now actively making staff redundant to accommodate consultation requirements and notice periods; where does the mandate come from to do this before the legislation is passed? To what extent did the Minister start this work before this legislation was established? We have had concerns that the recent parts of the legislative process have moved really quickly. It was only two weeks ago that the Education and Workforce Committee reported back. Lo and behold, last week we had the second reading, and we have the committee of the whole House today, but very few amendments, which tells me that, despite a large number of submissions, the Minister hasn\u2019t really taken those on board too much. I really want to drill into getting from A to B\u2014that transition that she\u2019s put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6f37784d9e74cf2af8160acaad2e926\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just checking that WDC is workforce development councils?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022204d1daf9c5a4f48a1c0f159385fcf18\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Workforce development councils\u2014so, for anyone in the Chamber and at home, the Minister has decided to disestablish workforce development councils, which were highly successful in the last Government\u2019s reforms. There was lots of opportunity there, but this Minister, under this legislation, has chosen to disestablish that successful model and re-establish a model with half the funding and more entities to manage, which just doesn\u2019t make sense in any respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EMy second question for the Minister is: how will ISBs be enabled to deliver on their statutory functions from day one when, in some instances, only two or three roles from the workforce development councils to their corresponding ISBs have been identified for transfer via an expression of interest process? This is about the runway\u2014the Minister wants it in place by 1 January 2026. I\u2019m keen to understand from her, in some of those WDCs to ISBs, how does she see that happening within the time frame available? Is she expecting a gap between that to ensure that the continuation of work is there and that nothing is lost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EAlso, third question: does she acknowledge that, essentially, some of the ISBs are having to start again in terms of recruitment, and that there will be significant impacts and time lapses in the provision of services to industry partners and to providers? Minister, I\u2019d really appreciate it if you are able to answer these particular three questions, because they really talk to the success of this structure\u2014proposed structure, at this stage. You\u2019ve been pretty firm on this structure from the start, which has given industry a promise, and they say you\u2019ve let them down. What do you say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u00229a686486be12446cae95ed6198a6039b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a686486be12446cae95ed6198a6039b\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just struggling a little bit with the member\u2019s questions. He quoted new section CW 55BAA, inserted by clause 41, which is about the Income Tax Act 2007 and amendments there. I\u2019m just trying to see what his question was regarding the Income Tax Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u002286cf496f75034f31ab8df0bceb7541af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286cf496f75034f31ab8df0bceb7541af\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Just to check: the three questions that I asked, which were in relation to that particular point, new section CW 55BAA of the Income Tax Act 2007, inserted by clause 41 of the bill, industry skills boards (ISBs)\u2014is she unwilling to answer the three questions about transition from workforce development councils to industry skills boards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022304e98c5afbb41e29b1ab86e2fdb4c40\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I think it was more around the relationship between the specific clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229becd08e3a5d452da8e55cb11cc1e6c5\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the relationship, Mr Chair, is that we\u2019re talking about a transition of a structure which has fiscal implications no matter which way that you look at it. So those questions are relevant because we\u2019ve got a funding issue, we\u2019ve got a staffing issue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f577979eda4047faa669d72881aa2546\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019re fixing your funding issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225edd65c3bf5b43fc98df1b0b9f66d69d\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and we\u2019ve got a transition issue. No, this isn\u2019t my funding issue, Suzanne Redmayne from Rangit\u012Bkei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9de1c48f2e944ac9dc45857c4c16f93\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: My name\u2019s not Suzanne.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b30ee73a8b3447e486a91770cb1f6aba\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Suze. This isn\u2019t my funding issue. This is the funding issue that the Minister for Vocational Education has brought to the House under this new legislation. This legislation proposes full reform of a sector, without any financial information available to us to give us confidence that this is even going to exist in two years. How do we make decisions in this committee without the right fiscal information to give us confidence that ISBs can set themselves up, that they can transition, and that learners that are at the centre of this piece of work are still going to have access to opportunity and learning provision that they were guaranteed under the last structure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EThis Minister has no money. She\u2019s put up a proposal that looks good politically, but she hasn\u2019t shown us the fiscals on how she is going to achieve that. That is not acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022694c3cef004e40d78a26712dce80070d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293ca7e8cd91e4da68042983983c04419\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: The magic money tree wasn\u2019t real money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e70e6363fd3f4f1ea4fc5782bfc9ab90\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Then show us what your sustainability plan is. I accept from Suze Redmayne, who says there is no magic money tree\u2014I\u2019m not proposing that there is a magic money tree, but what I am proposing is that any educational legislation that comes through this House should offer equity of access to learning opportunities no matter where you live. That includes regional communities who are cut off under this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EBack to the Minister: are you willing to answer the questions relative to industry skills boards that you have proposed under this legislation? We can be tricky about which clause we\u2019re talking about\u2014ka pai. If we want to play that game, we will. But as educationalists, as people who know the sector, you\u2019ve put up a model that says that it\u2019s better than the last one\u2014I\u2019m still yet to see where. I\u2019m still yet to see where your money is on this commitment without putting more cuts in place and less provision available to those in the regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8020eccc6c141e185f5dd0bea506cf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cdfceb3207b43e8a21b346f9376ddc7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8020eccc6c141e185f5dd0bea506cf4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, just to reflect on: yes, this is a place of robust debate, and a bit of back and forth is fine. But if members want to have a further discussion, please take it outside\u2014just to note that, as well, because it does disrupt the order of the committee. And just, also, to make the point: it would be helpful for the committee if we focus on the relevant sections and provisions to focus this debate, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u0022156d1f7c5e034b2083044b58b5a6614d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022156d1f7c5e034b2083044b58b5a6614d\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Mr Chair. I\u2019m looking at the changes to the Support Workers (Pay Equity) Settlements Act 2017, as laid out in Schedule 6\u2014this is page 102 and lines between 10 and about 20. In relation to your guidance, Mr Chair, about making sure we refer to Part 2 but being able to tie it to Part 1, a lot of the changes in Schedule 6\u2014which replaces the language of \u201Cworkforce development council\u201D with \u201Cindustry skills board\u201D or \u201C\u00A0\u2018workforce development council (as established or continued for the time being under\u2019.\u00A0\u201D\u2014do relate to Part 1, because they\u2019re singling out, basically, specific pieces of legislation that affect specific areas of our workforce; in this case, for instance, support workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I asked in my last contribution, and that I didn\u2019t get engagement or elucidation on, was this bill\u2019s intent and the funding that goes along with it\u2014for example, if we look at the support workers, who are a critical part of our workforce and will now also be captured in this new industry skills board\u2014and whether the Minister has sought engagement or assurances from the Minister for Social Development and Employment in relation to the intended goals around getting young people to go into education, should they not be in employment. I wonder whether the mechanisms that she\u2019s setting\u2014for example, for support workers, under Schedule 6\u2014will allow young people to enter into those professions, and, also, whether she\u2019s confident that the new industry skills board, with the funding that it has and with the ability to also explore, for example, new qualifications, is fit for purpose to ensure that we have the range of qualifications that are necessary; whether it\u2019s support workers or\u2014for example, I note that above the Support Workers (Pay Equity) Settlement Act 2017 in Schedule 6 is the Real Estate Agents Act 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003EHow will the Minister adequately ensure that our vocational education institutions are supported via the industry skills boards to look at quality assurance or new qualifications that may be needed, to ensure that, for those 18- and 19-year-olds who may not be able to find employment, and who are being told by this Government that education is something they should pursue, the range of qualification that connects this genuinely meets the needs of our communities and the economy? I\u2019m tying this, as I said, to Schedule 6, because the previous Chair, Madam Chair, indicated to us that, should we want to tie something in the debate to Part 1, we just needed to reference something that was in Part 2. I just wanted to make sure that that is clear. Something that I didn\u2019t get engagement on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f90157c62d17436b9fd32f8b899b4a24\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure that that\u2019s open slather.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a819c556486844baa035bca2412d23ef\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: No, but I just wanted to make sure that I can make the links between Part 2 and Part 1, as per the guidance from the previous Chair. One thing I didn\u2019t get engagement on in my previous line of questioning on Part 2 was, since the select committee stage, what engagement, if any, has the Minister had with the Minister for Social Development and Employment in relation to the changes that will be made to specific pieces of legislation that are subsequently amended, which affect very specific industry bodies and workforce groups? I wonder whether the policy intent in this bill, particularly, and the subsequent changes in Part 2, are in alignment with the perceived goals that the Minister for Social Development and Employment has. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022 data-id=\u00220f987852d9154743a349615fd888e733\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb40eb85aab340879622563050ab25fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f987852d9154743a349615fd888e733\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u002225dec8ad40564fa0a7bb75aed2406b7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225dec8ad40564fa0a7bb75aed2406b7a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve only been in the Chair a few minutes, so I just want to get a feel for the kinds of topics that are being covered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022 data-id=\u0022b83b9caddade4ba3a51bbbdfeafaaf0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b83b9caddade4ba3a51bbbdfeafaaf0b\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Minita. I\u2019ve been listening intently, hoping that the w\u0101nanga sector might come up, because they\u2019ve got a lot of questions of their own and I know that they\u2019re an interesting part of the education landscape. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c16ad1312bb442259998960605261d1c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the member to refer to the clause or schedule that he\u2019s speaking to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022172760065fc24e90bac25a93b8465a10\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, sure\u2014sure. It\u2019s CW 55BAA, inserted by clause 41, \u201CFederation of Polytechnics Committee and the industry skills board\u201D, and, more importantly, how the iwi, the hap\u016B, or the w\u0101nanga voice gets there. So I\u2019ll cut straight to the chase\u2014you know, these come from the whare w\u0101nanga. So how will the changes to the principal Act, this part of it included, ensure that hap\u016B and iwi be given support and time to establish a mechanism to capture what their labour market skills are? Given the tensions around the earlier parts of the bill and the robustness or otherwise of what that M\u0101ori representation might look like, it\u2019s probably just that the w\u0101nangas have these views or have these questions. So it\u2019s an opportunity for the Minister to respond to the w\u0101nanga sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EAdditionally, how will changes to the principal Act, this part included, reflect and respond equitably to the unique challenges faced by M\u0101ori across the regions? The regions is a key part because it\u2019s a part of the w\u0101nanga catchment, I suppose\u2014takes in more of the regions than the other main central ones. So it\u2019s a fair enough question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EAdditionally, in the bill, can the Minister provide examples of how changes to the primary Act, and again, representation at the confederation and the board levels, the skills board levels, is critical\u2014how it reflects an understanding of the challenges of rural and remote learning delivered by w\u0101nanga M\u0101ori? These things\u2014as we\u2019ve shared earlier, Minister, you and I are well versed in these things, and what I neglected to tell you earlier is that the 11 years before I went to the institutes of technology and polytechnics and w\u0101nangas, I was at Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EThe last p\u0101tai I have for you is: what feedback and advice has she received from her officials through engagements with the w\u0101nanga M\u0101ori sector on the bill? Were there any concerns raised by w\u0101nanga M\u0101ori in relation to representation of mana whenua, of M\u0101ori communities, of the w\u0101nanga sector, in the workforce development councils, in the federation, or the industry skills board?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002247a88a22498e4a208a43347635748943\u0022\u003EBefore I hand over to you, Minita, just a clarification that my whanaunga who\u2019s running Nelson Marlborough Institute of Technology, she\u2019s a proud descendant of the iwi she chairs, Ng\u0101ti R\u0101rua and Ng\u0101ti Kuia, and Ng\u0101ti Rangitane. So kia ora, Olivia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022c26b8c853c524569817fcea1a701190d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c26b8c853c524569817fcea1a701190d\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that, and I apologise for that. Look, the w\u0101nanga are not involved in this legislation and this legislative change, but I do want to take a quick moment to celebrate our three wonderful w\u0101nanga: Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa (TWOA), Te Whare W\u0101nanga o Awanui\u0101rangi, and Te W\u0101nanga o Raukawa. It\u2019s a good opportunity to give a shout-out to them, and for those of you who don\u2019t know, the wonderful Rongo Wetere is back in the country, the founder of TWOA. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EBut I can assure the member that w\u0101nanga are exempt from needing any endorsement from the industry skills boards and capstone assessments or anything like that. So as much as I\u2019m happy to talk about our three wonderful w\u0101nanga, it\u2019s not within this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022 data-id=\u0022522c22f4cb0a483d94771aa1aa9dabb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b7cff05e64f346e68983b2fdbfba3ad8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022522c22f4cb0a483d94771aa1aa9dabb0\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002219648415fa2f43f28a2167955fb5d7bc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u002264f6974111cc46c3b2b1cdf08edc4875\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264f6974111cc46c3b2b1cdf08edc4875\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 2 set out on Amendment Paper 381 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022071668518f784025ae1d49d407a61d07\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227b4f4fe4d6ae4c42a50545b24c9bbc93\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc6461b254a64720b402d9b698d2d445\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc6461b254a64720b402d9b698d2d445\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to the questions on Schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 1 set out on Amendment Paper 381 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222861f0f938204a57b0ba4c9e719136a7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u00223ae606cf6c0b4f14b0e460dee77025b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ae606cf6c0b4f14b0e460dee77025b1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendments to Schedule 1 set out on Amendment Paper 387 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022931cf23e26a84801a9376b20fd668da8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223302c523f7824e4b876adca919351216\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd96540f88114ebbb3a2897824412dd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd96540f88114ebbb3a2897824412dd6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We come to the questions on Schedule 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EThe question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s amendments to Schedule 2, new Schedule 11A, set out on Amendment Paper 392, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002227ab09af52de45109f14521afc994769\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220758404c72e949e8a72624d91f2c5301\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f49d3698f4dc4be6983f869e79346fff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f49d3698f4dc4be6983f869e79346fff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We come to Schedule 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002275f3d8d029cf45c48481c38245c2c971\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa857b0a1779416aa2ccccf46704a400\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa857b0a1779416aa2ccccf46704a400\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Schedule 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Schedule 4 set out on Amendment Paper 381 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b3cf45dd92da41c9891ecb195df89348\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d7981c7b28cf42e6adf33ead68009d08\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbb8ff436a2d45d0b35f8c2605d26ad6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbb8ff436a2d45d0b35f8c2605d26ad6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Schedule 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 5 set out on Amendment Paper 381 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220b5afe337e944d778766fa06539bf9b0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223b46213e95724c41b6519e571ee00cdb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 5 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8a3b313d38344f5b46c326dddd53cb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8a3b313d38344f5b46c326dddd53cb9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We come to Schedule 6 now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 6 set out on Amendment Paper 381 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229a0f1ad41119439686933ef8dca94331\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222059393bbbf04e9ea7e0c48aa683478f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 6 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 6 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ea6c02732f44f818523081ae0bcad4d\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbad32178008480a9696afbfa89f3725\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbad32178008480a9696afbfa89f3725\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to clauses 1 to 3. This is the debate on \u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022 data-id=\u0022a892884ace444159a27566fa36e30aad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a892884ace444159a27566fa36e30aad\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Title and commencement. One of the themes that\u2019s been well traversed over the last few hours has been really kind of a defining feature of this bill, and that is a systematic stripping-out of references to Te Tiriti and also a weakening, a removal, and a dilution of commitments for the various institutions in the vocational education sector to engage with, consult with, M\u0101ori organisations and institutions in the communities they represent. We saw it in relation to new section 314(d); we saw it in relation to new section 318 removing the provision that a polytech council should, as reasonably practical, include M\u0101ori; new section 370(c) references to Te Tiriti removed; and, in 314, around the characteristics of polytechs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s one of the pervasive features of this bill, and during the committee stage we have persistently really quizzed the Minister and invited her to really explain, in the first instance, the removal of references to Te Tiriti, given that it\u2019s our nation\u2019s founding document. Those references convey a whole lot of things about the kind of quality\u2014the seriousness\u2014of the Crown\u2019s and the public sector\u2019s engagement with mana whenua and M\u0101ori institutions and stakeholders. I don\u2019t believe that we have had a clear explanation from the Minister about the removal of those Treaty clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003EIf it\u2019s just politics, if it\u2019s just a function of the ACT Party\u2019s coalition agreement, then let\u2019s hear that, let\u2019s say it. That would be interesting to know. But if the Minister has a deeper philosophical commitment to weakening those things, then that would also be interesting to hear. There\u2019s a higher-level obligation that I think we have as a country to ensure that we look after the Treaty partnership; that we grow it, take it seriously. It\u2019s one of the things about New Zealand that makes this country great and distinctive. But there\u2019s a very practical reason why high-quality engagement with iwi M\u0101ori should be at the heart of something like the vocational and education training system. That is because M\u0101ori figure so prominently in statistics that show they are getting the rough end of the employment market and the education system, and we have an obligation to take that seriously and to fix that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229f071e5323b640f383726a46f39e8187\u0022\u003EIn light of all that, I would want to invite the committee to support Shanan Halbert\u2019s Amendment Paper that would replace \u201CVocational Education and Training System\u201D with \u201CDilute M\u0101ori Representation\u201D. I think that that would make the title of this bill, the \u201CEducation and Training (Dilute M\u0101ori Representation) Amendment Bill\u201D, much more appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022 data-id=\u002288b84f3c17f24d158e69fae247572a7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288b84f3c17f24d158e69fae247572a7b\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Following that contribution\u2014and we just tabled some amendments from my colleague Francisco Hernandez, which I\u2019d like to speak to\u2014I did want to ask the Minister for Vocational Education whether she believes that the title accurately represents the scope and intent of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003EI ask this because, you know, when we\u2019re engaging with the public, if I go out into the community and I say, \u201CHave you heard of the Education and Training (Vocational Education and Training System) Amendment Bill?\u201D, people may not know that, behind it, there was a broader intent of undermining our vocational education institutions. My colleague Francisco Hernandez put forward some suggested amendments which in his view do tend to better, in my view, reflect\u2014and from my conversations with him\u2014the sentiments both at the select committee process but, also, in terms of the actual impact that this bill is intending to have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003ESo, for example, one of his amendments was to change it to the \u201CEnsuring Course and Campus Closures Amendment Bill\u201D; the other one is \u201CEducation and Training (Committed to Ignoring Official Advice) Amendment Bill\u201D and \u201CEducation and Training (So Long as Southern Institute of Technology (SIT) Survives) Amendment Bill.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003EThe reason for the need to often unpack whether the titles actually represent the intent of the bill is that I do think\u2014unless you are studying law or unless someone who you know peruses the Parliament website often to go through legislation and the minutiae of it\u2014it can be genuinely difficult to get a sense of whether titles reflect potential harm in our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298c1995a3396432382c4b04f94f6462f\u0022\u003ESo, with that, I\u2019d like to know whether the Minister would consider any of the proposed amendments by either Shanan Halbert or Francisco Hernandez to better represent the intent of the bill. If not, can I ask the Minister whether she genuinely believes that the current title, as it stands, adequately reflects the intended outcomes; and, if not, why not? And I ask whether she sought any advice from industry bodies in whether the title actually communicates the intention of the bill, as well. So I would appreciate engagement on the issue of the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u00228acf4c73c93a4c18be0e804d48b55fc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228acf4c73c93a4c18be0e804d48b55fc1\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Very quickly, I\u2019ll answer the two suggestions that have been put forward. Yes, I think it\u2019s a very appropriate title. I acknowledge that \u201Cvocational education and training\u201D perhaps isn\u2019t explicitly known by everyone, but it is a good explanation of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI note from the member Phil Twyford his suggestion of the alternate naming, which I think is entirely inappropriate because of\u2014as I answered five or maybe six times\u2014the references here around the expectations and engagement and representation of M\u0101ori in new sections 314(d), 318(1), 321(c), 370(e), inserted by clause 23, and the overarching general duty in the main Act to acknowledge the Treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7d89293dff242c880a990a46f8ae777\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7d89293dff242c880a990a46f8ae777\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We\u2019ve had a few hours of good discussion on the Education and Training (Vocational Education and Training System) Amendment Bill. I have put forward a number of amendments that, I think, better reflect the nature of this legislation that the Minister has put forward. I acknowledge her experience in this particular area\u2014more so than many of us in here today. With this scale of reform, in fact, it\u2019s no small feat, and she will carry a great sense of obligation and responsibility with her in the decisions that are made as a part of this legislation. Minister, can I just acknowledge you, today, and also your ability to respond to not all, but many, of our questions and your enthusiasm in doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EThe title and commencement, particularly the commencement date: 1 January\u2014that\u2019s ambitious, as we all know, and we do want ambition in the sector. On the questions that I\u2019ve asked around transition today\u2014one example was the workforce development councils through to the industry skills boards\u2014there hasn\u2019t been a good explanation of the practicality of that transition between now and 1\u00A0January. I know that things take a while to set up, but what we\u2019re concerned about here is the loss of work as we exit staff and make them redundant and the lapse of time between the disestablishment and reestablishment of a new entity. I\u2019d be keen to hear from the Minister particularly around that commencement date and how she intends to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EI have thrown a couple of cheeky title changes in there, which I hope that the Minister finds humorous too. We\u2019ve had a good relationship in to-ing and fro-ing in this debate, and I want that to continue. At the heart of it are the learners, and I\u2019m still not convinced that this set-up offers better access to learning, particularly for M\u0101ori, for Pasifika, and for ethnic communities, but specifically for those out in the most remote parts of our country, in regional communities. It takes us back to a setup that we simply couldn\u2019t afford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EThe problem that we\u2019ve been trying to solve from the outset is the financial viability piece, and there is not a successful vocational sector without financial viability. I\u2019m still yet to see any evidence of whether the Minister is able to demonstrate that what she has put up is better than what was there before. That amendment I\u2019ve called \u201CBack to the Future\u201D, replacing \u201CVocational Education and Training System\u201D with \u201CBack to the Future\u201D. That\u2019s simply because we\u2019re going back to a model that was so expensive. We ended up with millions of dollars of debt. Consecutive Governments had to continue to bail institutions out, and that, in fact, is one of the primary reasons why we established Te P\u016Bkenga. I just can\u2019t see how the Minister is able to afford that, moving forward, or that it offers a sustainable future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EWhen I meet with any institution at the moment, they say that they feel uncertain and that they are experiencing the instability. Any meaningful engagement with the sector will show the impact of consecutive years of change. Again, the reform that the Minister puts before the Chamber today doesn\u2019t aid in offering any certainty or stability for the sector. It, in fact, offers more instability and more questions that remain unresolved. I worry about that, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225322e0a4529b497cbc59faf0515037dd\u0022\u003EWe didn\u2019t have the opportunity, today, to talk in detail about industry skills boards and apprenticeships and that significant chunk of work, but I want to flag that as a priority, and I encourage the Minister to really focus on that part moving forward. I\u2019ll end my contribution on this round there. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022 data-id=\u0022df6dcb1d922347adb1dcace26dc80d51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df6dcb1d922347adb1dcace26dc80d51\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I thank the member Shanan Halbert for his thoughtful and considered comments at the finish, there. Look, I agree, there is a lot of work to be done in terms of enhancing the parity of esteem for our trades, our apprenticeships, our traineeships, and that is certainly an area that I am going to be focusing on in the coming year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI also want to give an assurance to the member about my commitment to M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and regional communities. They are at the heart of what I am doing here, and I would extend an invitation to the member, once we are now through this, to come and meet with me and I will talk through some of the financial viability matters, particularly once we get the recapitalisation landed. That is going to make a huge difference to those polytechnics and industry skills boards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the member\u2019s own commitment to this sector, and I know that has driven his questions on it. I also acknowledge the impact on staff over the years of change, and I want to take this opportunity to thank all the staff for their professionalism. It\u2019s been their professionalism that has ensured that the students haven\u2019t suffered over this time. I can assure the member I read through all his suggested amendments. One or two were sorely tempting for me to accept, around the change of title\u2014had a nice ring to it, some of them\u2014but I\u2019ll stick with the existing title. Thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022 data-id=\u00229281fb99a7c64dada3541655ad0817e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229281fb99a7c64dada3541655ad0817e9\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I note the Minister\u2019s comments that a couple of Amendment Papers were sorely tempting. I suspect it\u2019s not the one that I\u2019m about to speak to, but I do want to speak to Shanan Halbert\u2019s amendment to replace \u201Cvocational education and training system\u201D with \u201Cundoing reform and taking vocational education backwards\u201D. It is probably a little bit strong, but the point that I want to make is just to pick up on a point that Shanan Halbert made\u2014I think the Minister\u2019s responded partially to it, but there\u2019s another part to it that I would like to traverse in my short contribution\u2014and that\u2019s around both the characteristics of polytechnics and also new section 318, inserted by clause 23, which is \u201CMatters to be considered when appointing members of polytechnic\u2019s council\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003EWhile I don\u2019t have the huge wealth of experience around vocational training specifically that other members in this House who\u2019ve spoken today have, I have seen a similar context within the universities, as well, and that is around the place that tertiary education has when it comes to pastoral care\u2014when it comes to being able to reflect. I think this would probably be even more important for vocational education and training institutions to be able to reflect the communities that they serve, and therefore to be able to reflect both the needs and aspirations of the students who go to these training centres.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003EIt does say in new section 314, in clause 23, when laying out the characteristics of the polytechnics, a whole bunch of things around the diversity of continuing education that these institutions provide and the fact that they are predominantly involved in providing continuing education that responds to the specific needs of their local communities. I think that focus on local communities is important, and regional need. It then goes on to say: \u201C(d) they improve outcomes for M\u0101ori students and trainees and M\u0101ori communities in collaboration with M\u0101ori and iwi\u201D, as well\u2014those are fine. The issue that I have is with new section 318, which cuts out a whole number of groups, including, in 318(1)(a)(ii), ethnic, gender, and socio-economic diversity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003ENew section 318(1)(a)(iii) is also of concern, because it takes out the need for appointing members of polytechnics\u2019 councils to be reflective when it comes to diversity of ability. I would have thought that, at a time when we\u2019re seeing significant issues\u2014I mean, if I were to just look at disability unemployment rates, it\u2019s gone up from 8.2 percent in 2022 to 14 percent. Now, we know that employment and employability is directly related to training, and that\u2019s largely what vocational training institutions in specific areas are trying to do to ensure that those who need to get employment in specific spaces and specific sectors have the training and education that they need to be able to do so. So removing them, working backwards\u2014surely one would want the council or the decision-making bodies herein to be able to reflect the needs of those who are coming for training. I don\u2019t understand removing these specific categories but then including a clause that says, \u201CThe council of a polytechnic should, as far as is reasonably practicable,\u2014 (a) reflect the communities in the region that the polytechnic serves\u201D. That\u2019s good, but it seems to me a step backwards, which is why I am arguing the change in title here. If one wants polytechnics to be reflective of the communities, then why take out the specifics of what that make-up should look like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022154727523a59431ab210aea1cf707272\u0022\u003EI do also want to take a quick moment to acknowledge, as Shanan Halbert has done, the care in which the Minister in the chair is responding to questions. That\u2019s one we haven\u2019t always seen, so I do want to acknowledge it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u002226255ec76b244ef29b07351dc4aa55c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226255ec76b244ef29b07351dc4aa55c3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: There is clearly an exhaustive number of contributions here, but I will take another call from Glen Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d52c571cdb246f6abf50a39de1a66f7\u0022 data-id=\u002210ba352c18e34f81b8526057b4fa4992\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d52c571cdb246f6abf50a39de1a66f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210ba352c18e34f81b8526057b4fa4992\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair. The generosity is wonderful and goes a long way, and I will reciprocate with a short call. The Minister in the chair, the Hon Penny Simmonds, has acknowledged staff, and I want to thank her for that. I come from New Plymouth, and obviously the Western Institute of Technology (WITT) in Taranaki has really struggled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d52c571cdb246f6abf50a39de1a66f7\u0022\u003EIn terms of the title, I want to mention the Amendment Paper in my colleague Shanan Halbert\u2019s name, and it really is around the instability. I was at WITT recently, and what I heard from staff and from students was just the constant instability of change, of change, of change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224680dcac294f4cd5bdd3a5a7ed5a3bb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260271ee0f8564d6c953b952da0cbd2d4\u0022\u003EHon Penny Simmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Lovely new building\u2014or lovely renovated building.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d52c571cdb246f6abf50a39de1a66f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6fb1f1c47af488b95fe38c7ff8429ce\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, there\u2019s been some good work done. The Government has had to bail them out several times over the years in terms of financial viability. What came to me was the instability of the\u2014yes, Te P\u016Bkenga, I acknowledge, was a huge amount of change and upheaval, and now with the Government doing what they\u2019re doing and the Minister doing what they\u2019re doing, it\u2019s just been constant change, instability, review after review after review. I want to support my colleague\u2019s amendment that is on the Table, replacing \u201CVocational Education and Training System\u201D with \u201CCreating Instability in Vocational Training\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d52c571cdb246f6abf50a39de1a66f7\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister: you have assured and thanked the staff around the country for what they do in vocational education and training, but how do we assure that, going forward, there is stability; that the sector can feel confident; that it\u2019s not going to be just another set of people rolling in from Wellington or from Auckland to places like Taranaki or Southland or the West Coast and again creating instability and creating fear in terms of that job uncertainty? We\u2019ve got mortgages to pay; we\u2019ve got kids to feed; we\u2019ve got our communities to look after. I just want assurance from the Minister. Please, consider the amendment of Shanan Halbert\u2019s\u2014I think it is a good one\u2014or maybe you could think of changing it so that there\u2019s actual vocational stability in education that you want to bring in with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d52c571cdb246f6abf50a39de1a66f7\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s frustrating for the people who are at the coalface\u2014for people who are at the flax-roots\u2014but we need to know, for them, that there is stability. In terms of the title, I support Shanan Halbert\u2019s amendment, because I believe the Minister has created more instability in the sector, and I ask and plead that we can do something to ensure the staff, the students, and the community can feel affirmed and stable in the future, going forward, of vocational education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a8ff6e3602c492880b65258f59645c0\u0022 data-id=\u0022abfb713326c94bb2967c0803ac6fca9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a8ff6e3602c492880b65258f59645c0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abfb713326c94bb2967c0803ac6fca9a\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cc9c3684f464472b936c83df1d85e1da\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea9b98fb259d47e4818f57b8ac6c500e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea9b98fb259d47e4818f57b8ac6c500e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Shanan Halbert\u2019s 11 tabled amendments to clause 1 are out of order as not being an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u2019s eight tabled amendments to clause 1 are out of order as not being an objective description of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ab5f08d863dc4b8a8ac667a97bdf1fea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1f43566f6fe428391c574c5af23e437\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1f43566f6fe428391c574c5af23e437\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment replacing clause 2 set out on Amendment Paper 381 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220b76322978c945eeb6f2acc649109e53\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227ca29497af7949ebb620e20c9452a3b9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002256922ac767d2443bba7d689efef3ae88\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000390\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000391\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022 data-id=\u002239496ece573146bebe1357d859040057\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239496ece573146bebe1357d859040057\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) (Customary Marine Title) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Education and Training (Vocational Education and Training System) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002235984f61527b4059ae9284acf3c4076b\u0022\u003E Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 2) \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b456a7b126b4d12b46e3a4a25819930\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae16283fbf674c70a3701dbeac538cf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae16283fbf674c70a3701dbeac538cf6\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I present a legislative statement on the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fefb05c374ab4e86965ebc0db070646a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297d8ae3ec2944e0ab44b979ea2a4e62f\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move, That the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003EThis Government is focused on lifting student achievement and closing the equity gap in schools. We say it all of the time. This bill requires school boards to treat educational attainment as their prime, paramount objective. It ensures initial teacher education and teacher discipline and competence processes are fit for purpose and provide clearer processes for managing industrial action within the school system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003EAlongside this, this bill has a real focus on the Government\u2019s priorities to improve student attendance. We know that attending school is strongly linked to achievement, and, to support this, the bill requires all schools to have attendance management plans in place that consistently responds to and addresses the diverse underlying causes of non-attendance and return students to school. It also requires universities to protect and promote academic freedom and freedom of expression within the university.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003EThere are many important proposals in this bill, and I want to thank the members of the Education and Workforce Committee for their careful consideration of their bill and their suggestions to strengthen it. And, also, thanks to all of those submitters who took the time to make submissions on the bill and share their thoughts and suggestions. The committee received 714 submissions and heard 42 oral submissions, and the number and type of submissions showed that New Zealanders care deeply about our education system and the outcomes it delivers for learners, families, and communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003EThe Education and Workforce Committee have recommended some excellent changes to the bill. My colleague Minister Seymour will speak to the changes on the attendance management plans, and my colleague Minister Reti will speak to the freedom-of-expression changes. It\u2019s my pleasure to now speak to the other key proposals in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003EThis bill simplifies school board requirements so that they have a more streamlined set of expectations. The key proposal is the repeal of section 5 of the Education and Training Act. This relates to my ability as a Minister of Education to issue a statement of national educational and learning priorities, which places unnecessary obligations on boards that are duplicated elsewhere. There are already stronger mechanisms in the Act, such as section 127 and curriculum statements, that set compulsory objectives and strategic direction for school boards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003EOne of the proposals in this bill which generated a lot of interest was on the amendment to the school board objectives. This proposal amends section 127 so that a board\u2019s paramount objective in governing a school is to ensure that every student at the school is able to attain their highest possible standard and educational achievement. Making educational achievement the paramount objective focuses boards on what matters the most. I want schools to focus on getting back to the basics and getting them right, so that all learners have the knowledge, skills, and competencies they need to reach their full potential.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003ESome submitters supported this proposal and agreed that schools need a sharper focus on academic progress. Others were not supportive and were concerned that this was too simplistic and risks undermining a more holistic approach to education. I believe that New Zealand\u2019s learners deserve to attend schools where their attainment and their educational achievement is the highest priority, and I acknowledge submitters\u2019 concerns and understand that some may think that the focus on educational achievement may demote other objectives, but to meet their paramount objectives, schools must continue to meet the other essential and supporting objectives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003EThis bill also adds a new attendance objective into section 127. It requires boards to take all reasonable steps to ensure that the school\u2019s students attend the school when it is open. Students cannot achieve when they are not at school and this new objective will strengthen the focus of school boards on their attendance obligations. Another new objective is that boards should ensure that their school uses good quality assessment and aromatawai information to monitor and evaluate student progress and achievement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003EI understand that school boards will need time to implement changes to give effect to these objectives effectively, and I\u2019m pleased that the committee has recommended amending the date from which school board\u2019s next strategic plans take effect from 1 January 2026 to 1 January 2027. This additional time will enable boards to consult with their communities and properly reflect the new board objectives in their strategic plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003EAnother important proposal in the bill involves changes to initial teacher education and improvements to the Teaching Council disciplinary and competence process. Students receive great education and achieve success when schools have a strong strategic vision and quality teaching workforce, and I\u2019m committed to ensuring that we attract, train, and retain great teachers. That\u2019s why this bill proposes to strengthen initial teacher education through greater Government involvement and standards for teacher registration, and practising certificates and approvals of initial teacher education programmes. These changes strengthen the processes the council is required to follow. This is critical, because teachers have a very strong influence on the educational success of learners. The quality of teaching is one of the most important factors influencing educational outcomes. That\u2019s why the bill also makes changes to the council\u2019s disciplinary and competence processes to ensure that they are effective. It\u2019s essential that the system supporting teachers are robust and fit for purpose, and I want to thank the Teaching Council for their support of these proposals, which will help support its functions and strengthen the education system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003EAnother key proposal in this bill is increasing the amount of days\u2019 notice that unions must provide before they strike from three days to \u201Cno less than seven days\u201D. Parents, caregivers, and wh\u0101nau have expressed that they need time to make alternative care arrangements should their school decide to close because of a strike, and I agree. I think that schools need more time to determine how to manage the potential disruption of strikes to students and their families. Some submitters were concerned that this could limit workers\u2019 right to strike, but let me clarify: this only applies to the notification that unions must provide before conducting a strike. It does not limit workers\u2019 rights to engage in lawful industrial action. Rather, it just provides more time, and more reasonable time, for families and schools to arrange alternative care to ensure students\u2019 safety and wellbeing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill makes a number of necessary changes to provisions on issuing principal eligibility criteria, international student fees, and the use of national student numbers for researchers. These amendments simply help maintain the health of the education regulatory system and ensure that law and practice remain well aligned. Again, I want to express my thanks to the committee once again for their recommended changes, and to the members of the public who made submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003EThe bill is just another step towards improving student achievement and attendance objectives, developing a workforce of the future, and establishing a knowledge-rich curriculum. New Zealand learners deserve an education system that helps them to achieve their very best potential. The bill supports a robust education system that this Government is focused on achieving. With that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237b40d11275f4dba8e36c41507f8a1c5\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022 data-id=\u002239edbdb9da9c481d9efa39dd8efb5807\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239edbdb9da9c481d9efa39dd8efb5807\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. today. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.55 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202510147b6df407e7264aca9e8766480ac30015000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224cf6752dabf34d0eb8ae92457823e4ba\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"