"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7d98c3757134219af116f29b1353efe\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222d565e7e9aa74e90bf85f063d8bbb24c\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002298ecdced05864bd9854917397c4ab0eb\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b65632ed79f4b4f9181ef9456dcad20\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00224466d713ed074ea2bc64c9ff15797ede\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224466d713ed074ea2bc64c9ff15797ede\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (Deputy Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002208f8e0590d2842abbe9edc029e480f8b\u0022\u003EParliamentary membership\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d90309e92ec841f596e29a0d23a0ee7c\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Mariameno Kapa-Kingi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022424cb752492245b7b667a48285f57db9\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00226961a3f9eb934bb0953a84fe4e746d9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226961a3f9eb934bb0953a84fe4e746d9e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, under Standing Order 36(1)(c), I have been advised by Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori that their parliamentary membership has changed and that Mariameno Kapa-Kingi and T\u0101kuta Ferris are no longer members of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori for parliamentary purposes. Accordingly, under Standing Order 35(5), those members, from 10 November 2025, are regarded as independent members for parliamentary purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f552ff2b46ce49538559b10c47b54526\u0022\u003EObituaries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002206bb11c63b574554a90a04a7f925cc8b\u0022\u003EHon Roger Neville McClay, QSO\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00220fe222fe70c5431d8a11ab5d903e73d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fe222fe70c5431d8a11ab5d903e73d0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I regret to inform the House of the death on 7\u00A0November 2025 of the Hon Roger Neville McClay, QSO, who represented Taup\u014D electorate from 1981 to 1984 and Waikaremoana from 1984 to 1996. During his membership of this House, he served as Minister of Youth Affairs and Associate Minister of Education, Pacific Island Affairs, and Social Welfare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003EI desire, on behalf of the House, to express our sense of loss and sympathy to the relatives of the late former member. I now ask members to stand with me and observe a period of silence as a mark of respect for his memory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003EMembers stood as a mark of respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc455f2fff91468788eb23593d9cfe17\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a048259e9d1497c98a097738a92285d\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00221b8c5a3208e14346868d1ebb82c62fa8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b8c5a3208e14346868d1ebb82c62fa8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A petition has been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00225f25d25b883641bf9d46e9ae6e98a53a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f25d25b883641bf9d46e9ae6e98a53a\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Bevan O\u2019Connor requesting that the House urge the Government to withdraw the Regulatory Standards Bill from the legislative programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00223d2d15d572534f0884d84075af9584b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d2d15d572534f0884d84075af9584b4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered 12 papers for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00227bb1555618d24ae8834ecd3a141e9af9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bb1555618d24ae8834ecd3a141e9af9\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2024-25 annual reports for the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003EElectoral Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003EFinancial Markets Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003ECrown Infrastructure Delivery Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003ENational Infrastructure Funding and Financing Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Infrastructure Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003EWater Services Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EGovernment response to the report of the Petitions Committee on the petition of Laura Ancell\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2023-24 report of the Crown\u2019s implementation of the Waitangi Tribunal recommendations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-29 statement of intent for the New Zealand Infrastructure Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2025-26 statements of performance expectations for:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003ECrown Infrastructure Delivery Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003ENational Infrastructure Funding and Financing Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Infrastructure Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u0022d43226c43dd14de68b4068d9326b32f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d43226c43dd14de68b4068d9326b32f0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Eight select committee reports have been delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00221b156675fe2444059f856c79c7e789aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b156675fe2444059f856c79c7e789aa\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EReports of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Ereview briefing on the 2023/24 annual review of AgResearch Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Ereview briefing on the 2023/24 annual review of the New Zealand Institute for Plant and Food Research Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Education and Workforce Committee on the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003EImmigration (Fiscal Sustainability and System Integrity) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereports of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003EDefence (Workforce) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Epetition of Murray Tingey\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003ETe Pire Whakahoki i a Kororipo P\u0101/Kororipo P\u0101 Vesting Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Epetition of Paul Barton\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL2\u0022\u003Especial report on the petition of Ross Hoole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00226db3ff48500841db9a09854c2fe9df6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226db3ff48500841db9a09854c2fe9df6f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bills are set down for second reading. The review briefings and special report are set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of two bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00221242b5351335452e8d7e93e1f196e4d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221242b5351335452e8d7e93e1f196e4d9\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EBuilding and Construction Sector (Self-certification by Plumbers and Drainlayers) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EBuilding and Construction Sector (Strengthening Occupational Licensing Regimes) Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2b7dd0c02b4424fb402c2f5d45f5b3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2b7dd0c02b4424fb402c2f5d45f5b3b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cc33491d2f664f96a47e90c0b81c64a4\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220800caf40cd84a828f50afc7e18d120c\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002253a33a97a9fe4e2ead8bbc55ea62f799\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022 data-id=\u0022802a175120704f0b9beec06065202087\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022802a175120704f0b9beec06065202087\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3afcb71611244449bff4a5fa5871edb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3afcb71611244449bff4a5fa5871edb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022406d25ab189645c88427c80008dcbf46\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Who is correct: the Prime Minister when he said, \u201Cwe\u2019ve got the right economic plan\u201D, or the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Winston Peters, who said his Government is \u201Cpursing a failed economic strategy\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4518d7fb5a24265b5a15a1cdcf8d8a1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m not sure the member said that. I\u2019ll just say the Minister of Foreign Affairs has been here a long time\u2014he\u2019s been here almost half a century. He has a lot of entrenched positions on lots of different things, but he and I are very, very cognisant of what our pronouns are, and they are \u201Cwe\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b82a3fb9e9743108a0205199f110fcf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Winston Peters that his Government has \u201Cfailed to run the economy properly\u201D, and, if not, how is shrinking the economy by 1.2 percent proper economic management?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7ab5713fb24459782168e59fc5624dd\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as we have discussed before in this House, this Government inherited the biggest recession in 35 years. It also inherited the longest post - COVID19 hangover, which I note that members on the opposite side failed to take responsibility to discuss or to show up for any hearings on, and, as a result, it\u2019s been difficult cleaning up that mess. But the good news is that parts of our economy are recovering well; other parts are continuing to struggle, but there are positive signs that future growth is on the way. Just look at the 3.5 percent growth in jobs ads, look at the 4 percent growth in exports, and look at the job-rich infrastructure activities that are coming our way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282091701fb5545149749c59dc8c3fd53\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does he agree with Winston Peters that the Government is \u201Cnot actually fixing the economy\u201D, and, if not, how does he explain why more people are out of work and staying out of work for longer than at any time in the last 30 years? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee59eece2f074071870e7a364c57c98a\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Context\u2014context. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299743e3f562d4bcbb04291ee8b57f7db\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a8ae6c36d88415fa27b397161ed9fee\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment. Please repeat the question, without any interruptions from anywhere in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262b940e92d19490a9417826b127996f5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does he agree with Winston Peters that the Government is \u201Cnot actually fixing the economy\u201D; and, if not, how does he explain that more people are out of work and staying out of work for longer than at any time in the last 30 years? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226736c95547c64b3baf1b5ff38ba100b2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, because there was a Labour Government that increased Government spending by 84 percent and that drove up domestic inflation, which drove up interest rates 12 times to record highs. That ends up putting an economy into recession, and that means people lose their jobs. The good news is that unemployment is about peaking; it\u2019s less than what the forecast was under his Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225113c5bc7bf8491ea8071c968d09f5eb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Was Winston Peters correct when he said of the current Government this morning that \u201Cwe haven\u2019t turned the economy around in the way we should have as fast as we should have\u201D; if not, why was he wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c5e43f0cd1742b2bedb0880a34279e1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I\u2019ve said, parts of our economy are recovering well and are experiencing growth. As I\u2019ve said before, it\u2019s a two-speed recovery at this point in time; there are parts that are also struggling. But the good news is just look at the commentators\u2019 reports and look at the forecasts going forward from here, and you can see that people are feeling positive that the economy is now growing. It\u2019s expected to strengthen its growth, and that\u2019s a good thing that we should be celebrating, because cleaning up a mess, after six years of mismanagement in less than two years, is pretty good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b67c24b38e6a4a97aa85ce707650cc9b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will he guarantee there\u2019ll be no sale or reduction of the Government\u2019s current 100\u00A0percent ownership of Kiwibank before the election; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022277092b14dee41699a9f03a2b46a37cd\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been very clear: we won\u2019t have asset sales under this term. But, as I said yesterday, we should be able to have a more serious conversation, rather than a political one, about what is the optimal use of capital. With very high-functioning economies like Singapore, one of the hallmarks of their success is asset recycling, and we should look to do the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b3c3d14828941cda30d46d03bdebacb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: In that case, is the Government preceding with Kiwibank\u2019s current capital raise, which Kiwibank has announced will be concluded by June next year; if so, how can he say that the Government\u2018s ownership of Kiwibank won\u2019t be diluted before the next election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022914a10b320454010898269eb2fd5a4f9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: There is ongoing engagement with the market and there is ongoing advice being taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d0af07164074e2a847feb8823682a91\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister said in his answer to the previous question that there will be no asset sales before the election. Kiwibank are currently in the process of trying to raise capital, and that is going to be concluded\u2014according to Kiwibank\u2019s announcement and the announcement of the Minister of Finance\u2014by June next year. I\u2019d ask the Prime Minister how he can reconcile those two statements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022165420bd619941adaab3a99109c9367f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019re asking me to judge the quality of the answer. I sit here, listening to the question, and immediately, in my head, thinking that there are many ways which capital can be raised. If the Prime Minister has got more to add, he may do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ab2753c4ca74c6f9606889dc94516af\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. It was clear to everyone that the Prime Minister had addressed the question, as the Standing Orders require. The Leader of the Opposition is using points of order to make political points, and I think that\u2019s unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201c9158049b0411ca120bf0c36ca9658\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, I think the leader of the ACT Party is doing exactly the same thing at the moment. I was in the middle of explaining a position when you decided you\u2019d add your little bit to it\u2014very unhelpful. Does the Prime Minister have more to say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f6b5762df7d4947a21fd3e06875504d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I would just say that that\u2019s not characterised as an asset sale. The member seems to misunderstand what equity and debt and asset sales actually are. We saw a similar response to the Chorus proposal. He sold Kiwi wealth out of Kiwibank. That was an asset sale; this is not that. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022348ddeab49af43c1849b86559798f1e4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Someone from the Government backbench is going to be leaving the House very shortly if we have more of those outbursts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223e2ece127a24df180c472a42558307e\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that under the last Government, Kiwibank sold its KiwiSaver business for $310 million to Fisher Funds, whereas under this Government, we are focused on getting more investment into Kiwibank through a capital raise?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228255f969c96946119d276a9209fe9b6f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and that is what is the difference between an asset sale and a capital raise. They\u2019re two different things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022355cb4b61d754b2084a4b9cdb4bfa4e6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Was that sale of Kiwi Wealth Ltd conducted before or after the previous Labour Government bought back the 49 percent of Kiwibank that the previous National Government sold?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277ec2f58471b44cdb110513dfd749fc3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think you\u2019ve made a point, but it\u2019s not something he\u2019s got responsibility for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022175833d7ce594cf8a298b186b3a61728\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022581d9acaf6ef4bf596e2d7b1239508b6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Rt Hon Winston\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ab89b807bf44d70afb7cde71e648deb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022651cab31886e4831a23d463b997c69b1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on. You asked: can he confirm something that a previous Government had done\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201dee76e2aa648eab6436b299e9528d2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Which was exactly the question the Minister of Finance asked him immediately prior to that. So if he\u2019s responsible for question that she asked him, which was to do with the actions of a previous Government, how is he not responsible for my question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ffea9d26562458da987c52a8390ffc4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I don\u2019t know if you want the Prime Minister to be responsible for the actions of a previous Government\u2014and that would be something new. But the Prime Minister may like to make a comment on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bf8af3f690f493c9471c7d85c139fd7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I\u2019m not responsible for the actions of a previous Government, but what I would say is that the member has got himself a bit worked up into a lather and has gone down a bit of a wormhole, and the reality is that this is a Government that is committed to not having asset sales over the course of this term. But there is a legitimately serious conversation that we should be having in this country so that we can ensure that Government capital is deployed to the highest possible purpose, with the best returns, and the greatest benefits to its citizens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022741f80cf67334395bebd3eeecc600bef\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: With respect to the substance of Nicola Willis\u2019s question, does the Prime Minister know the massive dissociated scandal that went with that transaction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022385bdcf7aad64205a066fae82f53b18c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m unaware of the details, and, again, I\u2019m not responsible for the actions of the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db87f3685ca349788cc12695a9ed1ef4\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister believe that the public of New Zealand recognise the challenges their country faces and are up for an honest, rather than an emotional, conversation around how the Government manages its assets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1d69c777447c8bf022893a72f374\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I think that we should make the case to the New Zealand people pro and for the position on asset sales, and the reason is very simple, which is that if you are a high-functioning economy like Singapore, one of the hallmarks of their success has been their asset recycling. They\u2019re able to take Government capital and redeploy it to higher purposes that generate greater returns and greater benefits for their people. It\u2019s pretty simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022877c5912a8a14b5ca0d32d26e50817a2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister tell us as to who privatised a third of the BNZ without going to tender, so that within three years that bank was\u2014the biggest bank in this country\u2014insolvent? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a38bad7811a64fbd8d8c29cdd0c73fb5\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re not responsible for a previous Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f1bc60babd74e37a71891b0a4997340\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I think that might not be\u2014I\u2019m not responsible for previous Governments\u2019 actions, yeah. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a4fff4f9b9f453e9425e45620fe593d\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm, with reference to the Leader of the Opposition\u2019s remark about the sell-down of Kiwibank in the previous Government, that in 2016, the New Zealand Superannuation Fund acquired a 25 percent share in Kiwibank and the Accident Compensation Corporation acquired another 22 percent share, all of which, of course, are on the Crown balance sheet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202da767eb1004f63a76b47688f100c6e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: And we had to buy it back, because they were trying to sell it off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022500be2deff9a42f09e6dfa9332c30862\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Buy it back from what\u2014from the super fund? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228829a4c9769c464fab04347c7e6f4131\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Wait on. Sorry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f4a7974093c419f8b4be1253561a032\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s your proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c2556897784442082aad0166f828cda\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want to leave the House? Do both sides want to leave the House, because that will be happening if that sort of exchange occurs again. The Rt Hon Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eba1326f16d9402cb5b80ae6b6c4b405\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t have anything further to add, except to say that I think we\u2019re going to have an adult conversation\u2014a serious conversation, a strategic one\u2014to say that if there is Government capital or Government assets that could or should be recycled for greater purpose and greater benefit for the New Zealand people, that\u2019s a legitimate question that we should have. But we should have it without trying to politicise it in the way the member started today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d9872cee4874cf1b9b666c2adff799d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022 data-id=\u0022011ea7271fa644df821f73b848db6e20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022011ea7271fa644df821f73b848db6e20\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9fc502a5e194b67b3cefb199499721f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9fc502a5e194b67b3cefb199499721f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022145b678dfff3428b8c984ded5ec23c2d\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What does he have to say to the 29 kura and the 95,000 kaiako and \u0101konga who have spoken out against the education reforms his Government intends to pass tonight?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227303b4b854ed4e47b046dace4c55fd12\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: That they should be incredibly supportive, because this is a Government that is focused on lifting educational achievement and attendance for M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori students, and the success that we have seen already in the lift of new-entrant M\u0101ori reading rates under a structured literacy programme are incredibly encouraging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dda55ab12dc4b20b225c6a30ef07d67\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the answer that the Minister of Education gave last week to our question on removing Te Tiriti o Waitangi obligations from school boards that \u201CElected parents to a school board should not be delegated what is a core Crown responsibility.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4b54156618b40f581683b17ad7c2bc3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do. I don\u2019t believe it\u2019s the board\u2019s responsibility to discharge a Crown responsibility around Treaty obligations. I believe it is the board\u2019s responsibility\u2014their No. 1 priority\u2014to make sure that they get kids to school, that they teach them the basics brilliantly, and that they focus on academic attendance and achievement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b03bb2f79a94d078f5505ca3aad34da\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Should Crown entities be expected to uphold core Crown responsibilities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022858387114e5e4ab1a0d73ff51d7ec70a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the Crown has its relationships and its obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi, and I\u2019ve addressed that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9e9595865b64972a66c63be1938695e\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Why should school boards\u2014a specified Crown entity\u2014not be delegated a core Crown responsibility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b99a4a1087a4742aa9c28bed34bacc9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We are making it crystal clear to board members that we expect, in a country where half of our kids don\u2019t go to school regularly, thanks to a Labour-Greens previous Government policy; in a country where half of our kids are not at the standard that they need to be at for reading, thanks to a Labour-Greens education policy; and where 80 percent of our kids who are hitting high school are not at the standard that they need to be at in mathematics, that we are going to do everything, and that nothing is more important than setting our kids\u2014M\u0101ori or non-M\u0101ori\u2014up for success so that they can access high-paying jobs. We are not tolerating, after five-and-a-half years of an absolutely hopeless education Minister who ran our education into the ground, couldn\u2019t get the kids to school, couldn\u2019t teach them to read and write, and couldn\u2019t teach them maths\u2014we\u2019re not doing that any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c477798b24c43f4b12612c2fe3a589c\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: What is his Government\u2019s track record of upholding their core Crown responsibility to honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d1588c64f4a476b93344ca73ac6fa56\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We, as a Government, are very focused on improving outcomes for M\u0101ori, and I would appreciate it if that member maybe had some policy contribution to make as a party as to what he\u2019s doing to improve educational outcomes for M\u0101ori, what he\u2019s doing to improve health outcomes for M\u0101ori, or improve economic opportunities for M\u0101ori. There\u2019s been nothing from that member that I\u2019ve heard on those policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022503b29b9252041f59c02cbf62b5fc018\u0022\u003EHon Erica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that the core tenet of upholding the Treaty is around raising achievement for M\u0101ori students, and that it has, in fact, been the first time in the last two decades that we\u2019ve seen an increase in M\u0101ori reading achievement through the phonics check?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c19dc6b5adf400fab93e423e0662379\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can. Again, what we believe, on this side of the House, is in providing kids\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1146dd70d304327a9d00b0c05bd25f7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014sorry. Prime Minister, stop for a minute. It\u2019s not possible for the House to hear an answer when there is an immediate barrage as soon as he stands on his feet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ea3d74b16a74ce796191d143a62fda5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I can hear him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288d24e3bf0b54284976c8aa8b725a851\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019ve clearly got a greater capacity for hearing than I do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6ba82ebbf6b4b868b55a20e3be8ca02\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m happy to swap with someone who can\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e52c1afbb0b41f294b82772878816a3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Prime Minister, you\u2019re going to be given a little bit of a better opportunity to answer that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022784a22a3665d4795a85a4c0f26accae4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: On this side of the House, we believe that Kiwi kids, setting off on life, should have an equality of opportunity, and one of the ways we do that is we lift educational outcomes for all kids, irrespective of their backgrounds, their ethnicities, and their circumstances. I am proud to say that our focus on back to basics has meant that for young, five-year-old M\u0101ori kids, doing their first phonics checks 20 weeks into school life, there has actually been an 18\u00A0percent improvement, where they\u2019re at or above expectations. There has been a 15\u00A0percent reduction in M\u0101ori new entrant kids needing new and targeted support. That is a good thing, and I would hope that those members of that party, if they genuinely cared about improving outcomes for M\u0101ori, would celebrate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5bfbcf2b4b340df8dae6b65820a7404\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does removing Treaty obligations from school boards actually stop anyone from doing anything they would like to do, or does it simply give more people the choice to live as they would like to in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa51d228ef9c4a16b1bc8317c95bfeb7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: It makes it crystal clear that the primary, number one job of school boards is to focus on educational achievement\u2014nothing matters more than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280a597d2dd274d4faac816d57be1537a\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: If Crown entities are not expected to uphold core Crown responsibilities, and if his Government is not expected to uphold core Crown responsibilities, who is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb41b365cb194532abf33de245930ae8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: The Crown does honour and uphold its responsibilities under the Treaty\u2014that is our obligation to do that. In this case, when we\u2019re talking about school boards, we want school boards focused on getting kids to school and getting them set up for success, and I would hope that those members really would want those same outcomes for their kids, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268e1bef8fcf6445c95acf5d0a882de75\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: On the importance of the Treaty of Waitangi as a part of the education curriculum, can he confirm that conflict resolution is a key outcome, and sadly it\u2019s lapsing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bef5ed539554cf48fc42e08e580cb5d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Rawiri Waititi\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffa8518d77c94ab5a3fc916893e4a6ea\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That question in no way violates 390 of Standing Orders. Conflict resolution is a key part of educational outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a6d8c6c239148d787b672e7422cb43f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re quite right, but the Prime Minister didn\u2019t stand up to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a274e15e34de4cd5856f0e7f132b99a9\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Why has he allowed David Seymour to test his deregulation agenda on our mokopuna with the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b73e563f03a4a8a84918f825defb548\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: With apologies, I don\u2019t really fully understand the gist of the question. I\u2019d just say that the Regulatory Standards Bill is about making sure that we make regulation in a better way, that we get better quality legislation and regulation, and that\u2019s what\u2019s been proposed with that bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e45c859330b4b91bfa87997245d3e42\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Why does his Government feel so threatened by Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218236b3e177a499ba3a91713fb2a4aa8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not. We\u2019re a Government that\u2019s very focused on saying that it\u2019s high time we improved educational outcomes for M\u0101ori, we improve health outcomes for M\u0101ori, we improve economic opportunities for M\u0101ori, and that\u2019s what this Government is working really hard to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4dfda53d18343479a8f80ff758f58d3\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Following up on the question of \u201Cthreatened\u201D, does the Prime Minister feel threatened by any of the M\u0101ori members of his Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022031f06bd37bb42c4bddc101729d00e5e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I appreciate the challenge that I get from them on a daily and weekly basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba72088dcd76409b9d61e2911316f7f5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Economic Growth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002287a3b494f7504e8d85668ecc560ed63e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287a3b494f7504e8d85668ecc560ed63e\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Growth: What actions will the Government take to boost the success of the New Zealand screen industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8345f30c466441a8559c8659d7bf0ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8345f30c466441a8559c8659d7bf0ce\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister for Economic Growth):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, I announced changes to the international screen production rebate, ensuring New Zealand remains a competitive and attractive destination for international productions to invest and create jobs for New Zealanders. Analysis shows that, for every dollar invested, the scheme delivers around $2.40 in economic return, supporting more than 24,000 jobs and more than 5,200 businesses. The Government backs New Zealand business to do well and compete on the world stage, and that is why in Budget 2025 we confirmed $577\u00A0million in new funding over four years for the scheme. The rebate will only be paid out if new productions come here and make investments in our economy. These changes that I have announced will generate more investment, create more skilled jobs, and ensure New Zealand remains screen test ready.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d863d4d4fd1b4a12878a58ffeffdff65\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: How will the updated rebate settings make New Zealand more competitive internationally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235b8727a84d34205a599bf4f419c5e74\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Global competition for large-scale productions and small and medium size productions is fierce. The updated settings ensure that New Zealand has its ticket to the game and lower the qualifying threshold to attract more productions, a change described by the screen production association as a game changer; making the 5 percent uplift more accessible for productions delivering lasting economic benefits; extending eligibility to our world-leading post-digital and visual-effects-only projects; and removing the cap on above-the-line costs to bring us into line with international standards. These refinements respond directly to industry feedback and will help secure more consistent work for our world-class crews, technicians, and creatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c420c6e69c24d9b933bae44696c3179\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What has been the reaction from the screen sector to these changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b64f118483284936bea4651a44ccf742\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The response has been overwhelmingly positive. The screen industry guild described it as big news for New Zealand\u2019s screen sector. The screen producers New Zealand president said it is incredibly welcome news, a pragmatic decision, and the one that\u2019s the real game-changer is taking down the value of projects. The New Zealand Film Commission said the changes will strengthen New Zealand\u2019s competitive position, and industry figure Cliff Curtis called the updates crucial to keep New Zealand competitive on the world stage. This Government is listening to industry to secure growth, investment, and opportunity in a very important export sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ff9b2217c2f45099356f79f85d109d1\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: How does investment in the screen industry contribute to the Government\u2019s wider economic goals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243842a9038054453bea062bf597890fb\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: We see the screen industry as part of our plan to develop talent, create higher-paying jobs, and double the value of New Zealand\u2019s exports in 10 years. It attracts international capital, builds skills, and promotes New Zealand\u2019s brand to global audiences. Modelling indicates the improved rebate settings, which we have delivered, could attract as many as 15 additional international productions per year and increase foreign investment by several hundred million dollars. Productions made here, like Avatar and The Lord of the Rings, generate not just the jobs on set but the flow-on benefits for tourism and hospitality. I am told that one boat produced for the Avatar movie involved contracts with more than 40 small New Zealand businesses. We are backing this kind of activity, this high-return industry, to deliver growth for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b377fc02c20f47eba77127e28c78ec83\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221728c83aef144fd2932788b376b5ffe8\u0022 data-id=\u002275977c16691f451d94083f39084d37cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221728c83aef144fd2932788b376b5ffe8\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275977c16691f451d94083f39084d37cc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does she stand by her statement of 29 August 2024, \u201CDifficult conditions are starting to ease. We are already seeing the green shoots of recovery\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022 data-id=\u00224955d7f4c19046bd9042dddcf9bb62e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224955d7f4c19046bd9042dddcf9bb62e3\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Let me take the member back in time. That was the quarter when Consumers Price Index inflation finally came back within the 1 to 3\u00A0percent target band, having been above the top of the band for three whole years, reaching a peak of 7.3\u00A0percent under the previous Government, driving a cost of living crisis. Two weeks before the statement the member quotes, the Reserve Bank had lowered the official cash rate for the first time since 2020. In the following two quarters, following my statement, GDP rose by 0.4 percent and then 0.9\u00A0percent. Business confidence was high. So, yes, there were certainly green shoots of recovery. Like many recoveries, there have been bumps along the way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221728c83aef144fd2932788b376b5ffe8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c080904aa58a4b1096b573d65355d7e5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she claim in October 2024 that \u201CThe green shoots of business confidence are re-emerging.\u201D, when construction liquidations are up 23 percent, retail liquidations are up 16 percent, and hospitality liquidations are up 41 percent, just in the last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220579f27fe02b48689b9a61151dcd57e6\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Because current activity in the retail sector recorded the highest response in four years; because building consents in terms of the monthly numbers are the highest in two years; and because the October ANZ Business Outlook showed a jump in confidence, the highest in six months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221728c83aef144fd2932788b376b5ffe8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad1c0fbece0249af8f86532a692e6256\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she claim on 5 November 2025 that an economic recovery is under way; the same day that we learnt that 160,000 people are now unemployed, the highest since 1994?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdd2a586538243b5bac9a74f17946542\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Because, as economic literature concludes, the foundations for an economic recovery are: inflation back in target, interest rates reducing, and the conditions for investment and growth. Our Government has rebuilt those foundations that you trashed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c30cec74ff34d4290086bfa0916d857\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I didn\u2019t trash anything, and it\u2019s not appropriate to use a question to attack the Opposition. [Interruption]. I beg your pardon; who\u2019s speaking at the moment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221728c83aef144fd2932788b376b5ffe8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a4686c6c95d4586841e073cb95470a3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Is Winston Peters correct that \u201CWe\u2019ve got a situation where we haven\u2019t turned the economy around in the way we should have, as fast as we should have. I know it can be turned around but not with this sort of strategy where you\u2019re not actually fixing the economy.\u201D; if not, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c351588a5eb04e89b7259983cc3c40b0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Winston Peters is one of 20 Ministers around the Cabinet table who are absolutely of the shared, collective view that we need to do more to recover this economy, to have it growing faster. I am in complete agreement with him about that. I\u2019ll tell you what we all agree won\u2019t help, and that\u2019s loading more taxes on to every business and KiwiSaver account in the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221728c83aef144fd2932788b376b5ffe8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae394be494f243ea929de93c8ad59e36\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b404aab6006480587eac837c43472eb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not calling you just yet. There are people who are constantly calling out during the answer to a question, in order to drown out what the answer is. If that continues, that and those people will need to leave the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221728c83aef144fd2932788b376b5ffe8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d19b5ffc6c342bb827e25c8eb31afd7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order Mr Speaker. In that last answer, the Minister of Finance\u2014I hope it was deliberately, because I can\u2019t think why she would have done it otherwise\u2014deliberately mislead the House about the nature of our tax policy; there is no tax on KiwiSaver, there is no tax on businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f97b5e615f7402d861153108864bf79\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There was no particular allegation made in that, from what I was able to hear of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221728c83aef144fd2932788b376b5ffe8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291c3aa98cbf44572ab093a35ea4862a0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Who should Kiwis believe: the Minister of Finance last week that, \u201CA hard-won\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d861713bb9c446c98e85009f965a8de\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, just a minute. Why are backbenchers from the Government speaking during the asking of a question? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221728c83aef144fd2932788b376b5ffe8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f61fab46a5b491bbf595a838a01fb18\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Who should Kiwis believe: the Minister of Finance last week that \u201CA hard-won economic recovery is now under way.\u201D, or Winston Peters this morning, that her Government \u201Chas failed to run the economy properly\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f246f0dcb9948c2a8bf4f619be244a9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I think New Zealanders should believe me, and they should also believe Winston Peters, that we want to turn the economy recovery around faster. I\u2019ll tell you, if we\u2019re talking about the question of who should be believed, believe you this: your capital gains tax will hit every business and KiwiSaver fund in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221728c83aef144fd2932788b376b5ffe8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022351acb041ae147f0867c81bc23a91e32\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister of Finance is incorrect. Our capital gains tax will not hit KiwiSaver, will not hit businesses. She is completely misrepresenting us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b97c57af7f4d45d5b0c327a5aafa9308\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It would be a debatable point that I\u2019m not going to rule on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221728c83aef144fd2932788b376b5ffe8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3b34b1130ee4e2c99929b18a14b1cea\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Why should New Zealanders believe her repeated declarations of an economic recovery when, since mid-last year, the economy has entered recession, unemployment is at long-term highs, food prices are up, and record numbers are fleeing for better opportunities offshore? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222def59b0f4e547eab3a572f647936222\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Because I am the finance Minister in a Government that has delivered tax relief to working people. I am the Minister of Finance in a Government that has got inflation back under control after three years of a cost of living crisis under the last lot. I am the Minister of Finance in a Government that has seen interest rates fall, and I am the Minister of Finance who says no to a capital gains tax on businesses, KiwiSaver funds, and hard-working Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226facc32963094d74a029a5d406d4cbaa\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I seek leave for the Hon Deborah Russell to ask two more supplementary questions on this question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf5668e9965b4442a62d911250a5c770\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? The Hon Deborah Russell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221728c83aef144fd2932788b376b5ffe8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8197e55d5794084a3496362ae75ac77\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Why\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262815b2f287048fdad441ca0996d48a2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Questions are heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221728c83aef144fd2932788b376b5ffe8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b623f51b0874fb2a4b56f8c4580c57d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Why should New Zealanders believe the claims that the Minister of Finance has made about data points when the lived experience of everyday New Zealanders is that they cannot get appointments at the doctor, that the cost of living is up, and that they simply cannot afford to live in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc2b84aec7f447eead796f8eeffd392a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: From the tax lecturer, I\u2019d expect she would understand that when the data shows that price increases have been far lower in terms of inflation, that food price inflation is far lower than it was under her Government\u2014those are real facts that matter\u2014and because it is absolutely the case that were we to have a Government with a higher inflation target and more taxes on everyone, things would be a lot worse. That\u2019s the alternative prescription you\u2019re proposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221728c83aef144fd2932788b376b5ffe8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226cbcf7005d64b28a8c9a8925602bcc5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister of Finance understand that even though the rate of inflation has decreased that still means that prices are going up and still means that New Zealanders are still worse off every week because her Government is failing to fix this economy? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224450d623ec7041d3a5cd627caa2f25d2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just calm it right down. [Interruption] Just wait. Calm it right down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224478b7cb554b4997b2dcf567b6816349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241f8315e5470449aa490ff95c36aec03\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I well understand and actually have daily recourse to reflect on the fact that when inflation has got as high as 7.3 percent\u2014as it did under the last Government\u2014and when that is sustained for a significant period of time it does bake-in prices across the economy at a higher level. Actually, bringing that back down again takes a lot of work. I also reflect on the fact that when a Government puts forward proposals to reduce inflation; to increase supermarket competition by fast-tracking new supermarkets, to increase jobs by fast-tracking new housing developments, new ports; when a Government reduces tax on investments that businesses make, it is supporting growth. When other people stand up in this House and say that their one solution is more tax on the economy, I wouldn\u2019t take them seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db4f9d89a9124f1a967fb24d9512f4ad\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c12ec48366244942ab0f7b812162d068\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c12ec48366244942ab0f7b812162d068\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What announcement has he made about improving access to timely, quality healthcare services in Hawke\u2019s Bay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022 data-id=\u0022458bd031749746779b7375df7f391592\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022458bd031749746779b7375df7f391592\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Today, I announced the completion of stage one of the radiology upgrade at Hawke\u2019s Bay Fallen Soldiers\u2019 Memorial Hospital. This upgrade is part of a $35.8\u00A0million investment to double imaging capacity and deliver more than 10,000 additional MRI and CT scans each year for Hawke\u2019s Bay patients. These significant upgrades are all part of our focus on putting patients first and will help Hawke\u2019s Bay patients get the answers and treatments they need sooner. My thanks go to the project team, who delivered this critical project within a year of funding being allocated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022592047e574fd48db969aa5b8c6bae861\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits will this project deliver for patients in Hawke\u2019s Bay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acae90da82264e249a5caefcba44a9dd\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The first stage has delivered an additional 808 square metres of floor space, and, from next week, a second MRI scanner will provide 4,000 to 6,000 extra scans per year, and a second CT scanner will double CT capacity with 6,000 to 10,000 extra scans annually. The facility has been designed to maximise efficiency, with dedicated spaces for patient preparation and post-scan care, to get as many scans done\u2014for timely, quality access to radiology services in Hawke\u2019s Bay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de3b492916c2485ebad1a85688c84cde\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: How will these upgrades support the Government\u2019s health targets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220de63e47c4664bec84384202ba523a63\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: These upgrades directly support our health targets to reduce wait times for patients. For cancer treatment, CT wait times will now consistently meet the two-week target. Increased CT capacity means faster access to urgent imaging and quicker clinical decision-making, helping reduce emergency department stays. Expanded imaging will also streamline diagnostic pathways for first specialist assessments and support faster treatment planning for elective procedures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e483869d8bf54d8596986c379ddaa921\u0022\u003ECatherine Wedd\u003C/span\u003E: What other projects are under way to improve access to timely, quality healthcare in Hawke\u2019s Bay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223a25757892e4793bc42be74a3e4c981\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Good news for Hawke\u2019s Bay: Health New Zealand is delivering a rapid-build ward with 28 beds to boost capacity at the hospital and reduce wait times for patients. We\u2019re also progressing a linear accelerator and bunker to improve services for patients needing cancer treatment in Hawke\u2019s Bay; and more good news: the third endoscopy room will open later this month, further boosting diagnostic capacity. There\u2019s a lot of work under way in Hawke\u2019s Bay as part of our focus on putting patients first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022402a7c0bbd534013a15eec0875ffb88a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ea8d231f4e948c19f942d51a4ae19bf\u0022 data-id=\u00223da7a8132ae44de89fbf35e400fbff57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ea8d231f4e948c19f942d51a4ae19bf\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223da7a8132ae44de89fbf35e400fbff57\u0022\u003ELAURA McCLURE (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: What recent reports has she seen on serious and persistent youth offending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022 data-id=\u00220578aabd5bf54dba8a6ac5fcdf102940\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220578aabd5bf54dba8a6ac5fcdf102940\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen a recent independent evaluation report on the Military-Style Academy (MSA) Pilot which shows two-thirds of participants reduced the frequency or seriousness of their offending in the six months after the residential phase of the pilot. I want to acknowledge these young people who have taken this opportunity to make better choices, but I also want to acknowledge all the staff who have been involved, including the mentors and social workers helping these young people. The Military-Style Academy Pilot had a real focus on the transition back into the community, and we have seen some good results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ea8d231f4e948c19f942d51a4ae19bf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287813bbdd3ce4c568f9d4f22881c475d\u0022\u003ELaura McClure\u003C/span\u003E: What else did the independent evaluation report show about the outcomes of Military-Style Academy Pilot participants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3610bd9f19f4c3887bd8a9660eedb88\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Comparing the six months before the residential phase to the six months after the pilot, participants reduced their violent offending by 67 percent. To put the outcomes of this group into context, the participants in the MSA pilot were matched with a cohort of nine other young people. The MSA cohort had longer periods of non-offending than the matched cohort. The independent report shows there were wider benefits too, including involvement in education, work experience and employment; improved physical and mental health; reconnection with wh\u0101nau; and stable living situations. The evidence shows that these are all important protective factors that young people need as a foundation to be a success in life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ea8d231f4e948c19f942d51a4ae19bf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022702b0d28750b4d989cfadf187ed86577\u0022\u003ELaura McClure\u003C/span\u003E: What have been some of the other outcomes for the young people in the Military-Style Academy Pilot?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222a92f0d30e9435180e3180a5a4652cd\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: There have been 11 young people in total involved in the pilot. One elected to leave the programme in the first couple of weeks. One young man tragically passed away in a car accident, and my thoughts go out to his family. Seven of the 11 had some alleged reoffending, generally at a lower level than before the pilot; and five of those are now back out in the community, and I\u2019m told they\u2019re doing well with no further offending. Reoffending rates are not the only measure of success. Every single one of these young people has the potential to do amazing things with their lives and become the best versions of themselves, and I hope they can achieve that moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ea8d231f4e948c19f942d51a4ae19bf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d46dc28d8564258b833c67f9d268602\u0022\u003ELaura McClure\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government\u2019s record on youth crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223590b041308241868a09b9ec8fda5803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca3103d29060496fa5043b7cde0423c1\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: There has been a 16 percent reduction in children and young people with serious and persistent offending behaviour. We have taken an issue that was out of control and achieved our Government target four years ahead of schedule. We\u2019ve invested in and expanded the few things that were showing results, like the fast track programme, but we also brought more accountability for young people and their actions. We\u2019re getting on with the important work of fixing what matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002251f6966c661a4570bd11b6e931e85861\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022 data-id=\u00222f29f1f4027240eaab8fad33deffe498\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f29f1f4027240eaab8fad33deffe498\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by his statement that the health system is \u201Cfinally turning a corner\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022 data-id=\u0022e276d31f047644a7bc978ed11e76eea9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e276d31f047644a7bc978ed11e76eea9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E In the context it was made, yes. We\u2019re seeing steady improvements, with more Kiwis getting care sooner and wait times coming down. Patients are at the heart of everything we do and after years of decline, the health system is starting to move in the right direction. We have brought back health targets\u2014because you can\u2019t manage what you don\u2019t measure\u2014and we\u2019re now seeing those results show up for patients. There is still a lot more work to do. Too many New Zealanders are still waiting too long to get the care that they need. We are making progress, but we won\u2019t stop until every Kiwi can access timely, quality healthcare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216b60a5a7d884dc9873f4a3ee35725f7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: When Christchurch emergency department spent over a third of its winter days in code red, was it turning a corner?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1d6e2d744c24b4f97ed49529ab8835e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The majority of patients at Christchurch Hospital were being seen within six hours, and we are now measuring that through the health target which the previous Government removed. What I would point out to the member is that the last Government decided to remove the health target for shorter stays in emergency departments. The number of patients which were being seen within six hours when Labour came to office was 89.2 percent; when they left, it was 67.5 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259c6893d2fcd4d50853ee603fdc6a764\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Is 400 patients attending Christchurch emergency department on every day in September a sign that the health system is turning a corner, or a sign that more people can\u2019t afford to see their doctor in the community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab5ac570457a40a49adc723dd42e773f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Each year, we see increased presentations at our emergency departments due to population\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3f5164eb9bd4f20b9b3aa86f58f0986\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Because each year, you let GP fees go higher.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9e1d8070ade474780a67791350f2b4f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if she\u2019s going to talk about GP fees, Labour let GP fees increased by 30\u00A0percent in their six years in Government. That is on Chris Hipkins and the Labour Party. What we\u2019re focused on is making sure that we\u2019re investing in primary care, investing in the workforce that\u2019s needed, and we are having to turn around a health system which the Labour Party decided to restructure during the middle of a pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c719582900a4a309c60152d3c76ec7c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Is that emergency department being crowned the busiest department in New Zealand and possibly Australasia a sign that the Canterbury health system is turning a corner, or that successful systems for keeping people out of hospital in the community have fallen apart?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220375727ddccb4955994939bfd57f5c48\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: As the member will know, if people need to have emergency care, they should go to an emergency department, but we also need to make sure that we\u2019re investing across our health system. That\u2019s why I\u2019m proud that, under this Government, we have made a record investment in primary care this year, and a record investment in the primary care workforce, all whilst the previous Government increased GP fees by 30 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220da3f21d771e4e6a8ded79e9359d44ce\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Is erecting a tent care facility outside the Christchurch emergency department a sign that the health system is turning a corner, or a sign that it is in terminal decline?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002208f355c54a924840b843fc8311bab212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5acb4d0e0954c38b53a2a9623b8512d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m not aware that that was done at that hospital, but what I would say is that, under her Government, she allowed GP fees to increase by 30 percent; and, whilst we are focused on trying to improve access to primary care through our Primary Care Tactical Action Plan, the Labour Party still won\u2019t answer a simple question: do they support extended prescriptions to 12 months, which will save patients $105 per year and improve access to general practitioners? Why won\u2019t the Labour Party say whether or not they support that policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ac75641e79b4641ba713197fd12201c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Mental Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022 data-id=\u00224ce9eaba3175455883825831bbcb43a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ce9eaba3175455883825831bbcb43a9\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Mental Health: What recent announcement has the Government made about combating methamphetamine harm?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220dadb94c23504a7b8e4dca31a4ff46fd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3a7f7e064ac46b18c738101eab82874\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220dadb94c23504a7b8e4dca31a4ff46fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3a7f7e064ac46b18c738101eab82874\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for Mental Health):\u003C/span\u003E The best way to take a drug is not to take it at all. The reality is meth destroys people\u2019s lives, rips families apart, and harms our communities. That\u2019s why the Government released a bold and comprehensive action plan to combat the harm caused by meth. We\u2019re taking action to reduce demand by increasing the range of addiction services in our communities that have been hard hit by this drug. The health actions are just part of a wider plan across Customs, police, and justice to combat organised crime and give people the support they need. Whether it\u2019s your child, a friend, or a family member reaching out for support, this Government is committed to ensuring support is there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d159b020a4c4457197c3c0fcf159b71b\u0022\u003EGreg Fleming\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government\u2019s action plan reduce demand and boost intensive treatment services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220dadb94c23504a7b8e4dca31a4ff46fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c92a03734df4d378120f8879eaa43df\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: One of my top priorities is to improve access to addiction support so we can ensure that when someone takes a brave step of reaching out, that support is there. We\u2019ve invested an extra $30\u00A0million to deliver faster access to support by rolling out screening, brief intervention, and referral for treatment services in seven hospitals; boosting existing treatment services so they can scale up; training more front-line workers while also upskilling the existing workforce; and establishing new community early intervention and peer support services. Behind every one of these new services will be hundreds of Kiwis getting the support they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fe745c251204d37b836fa8a0c645e72\u0022\u003EGreg Fleming\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government\u2019s methamphetamine action plan help prevent people from starting to use meth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220dadb94c23504a7b8e4dca31a4ff46fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a82b79004a964d81a245102af796f1d8\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s health response to meth is focused on \u201Cstop people from starting\u201D, \u201Cstart people stopping\u201D, and \u201Ckeeping people stopped\u201D. By expanding the T\u016Bturu programme, we can get in a lot earlier and actually stop our kids from starting. We know engagement with education is a powerful protective factor for preventing drug use. T\u016Bturu has been shown to improve outcomes for our young people by reducing the number of students being stood down, suspended, or excluded. There will also be a hard-hitting national media campaign from the proceeds of crime fund. This campaign will raise public awareness about the dangers of meth and show that support is available. The Government is not just focused on ensuring the right support is in place but on preventing Kiwis from getting to that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a4c96e529514330bdb0c50e5276bb19\u0022\u003EGreg Fleming\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government\u2019s plan to combat meth deliver more early intervention and peer support services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220dadb94c23504a7b8e4dca31a4ff46fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e7a74b47417439fa459cbca52e34e32\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: Our mental health and addiction plan is working, with 77 percent of people seen within three weeks for specialist drug and alcohol support, with a growing front-line workforce, with our addiction workforce vacancy rates down by 17 percent. We don\u2019t want people to get discouraged from reaching out for support. If someone is ready to get treatment, then that support needs to be there. That\u2019s why we\u2019re boosting community-based early intervention and peer support funding which will increase access to recovery groups, which are proven to support long-term abstinence. Increasing availability of these programmes in areas hardest hit by meth will ensure the right services are ready to support those who want to stop using. Our priority is to improve access to support so more Kiwis can get the help they need when and where it\u2019s needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9a327d923f344bc92a521181b246513\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022 data-id=\u00224f90cf4d0a72489f9a4b8f94f7837b6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f90cf4d0a72489f9a4b8f94f7837b6e\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga? Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b475f536bb904506b24a1d768e6c3332\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b475f536bb904506b24a1d768e6c3332\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e10572b4335401eabb651e197cdea2f\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it undermines the mana of the Royal Commission of Inquiry to continue with boot camps in the face of unequivocal opposition from survivors and care-experienced youth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d91e5e31e78c4d6099f87a689fcddfa1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019m proud about is this Government has seen a 16\u00A0percent reduction in serious youth offending, which was completely out of control under a Labour-Greens Government. Our change to our general approach on law and order is working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cbe3e0f3c3d4b70a0abe78e1e54ba50\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that his boot camps are \u201Ca powerful targeted intervention\u201D, or does he accept findings that the boot camps had insufficient preparation, therapeutic support, and individual intervention due to a lack of capacity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d561864f06d4299be5932f2e612c40a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they\u2019re an important part of lowering serious youth offending, which is down 16\u00A0percent under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d468ede472cd4a26bf564f71db51ea6d\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that expanding boot camps, despite official advice saying they\u2019re costly and ineffective, is a mistake, when community-based, trauma-informed solutions, like Ng\u0101puhi social services youth remand programme, are having far better outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5197fe9044a481488149240b3fd1e11\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Serious youth offending\u2019s down 16\u00A0percent and the community is safer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e2d99dcb251439b8ecf63539a07b8f3\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it a priority to invest in millions of dollars in boot camps when care-experienced youth implore the Government to instead fund properly trained staff, better access to education and healthcare, and safe therapeutic spaces in existing residences?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242f91991f70345c9a724842c333f49e0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Because this is a Government that doesn\u2019t believe a 30\u00A0percent increase in violent crime, a 51\u00A0percent growth in gang membership, a doubling of retail crime, and a quadrupling of ram raids is what is needed. This is a Government that\u2019s invested in restoring law and order. That\u2019s why there are 29,000 less victims of serious violent crime, that is why serious youth offending is down 16\u00A0percent, that is why there is growth in police out on the beat, and ram raids are down 85\u00A0percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cd0f5385d834c3c95a1cf203b52e4f7\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister attributing the 70\u00A0percent drop to boot camps?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b433c90e773346af82384d27f143fab6\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Can you clarify what drop, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d47dc9c9acd64f6698d38e4160e4ca1b\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: In crime and reoffending. Is the Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273c44624c50a4b44afcd40a412194e44\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is that the same question or not? You\u2019ve had an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c9009c5cf5494842897c71bb42cfee2a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fefef6f4366b4509bd183e28ef8f851e\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: No, he didn\u2019t address it. He asked for it to be\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230c832c5453743e4bf3b547add867380\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Rhetorically, that\u2019s right, but it is addressing the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6d9632ed16548938cefbd81c6683f88\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Hunting and Fishing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229ad9f402f06844c586a6f2f904712412\u0022 data-id=\u00221c3fffd1233e4d598c360d670fee9a4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ad9f402f06844c586a6f2f904712412\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c3fffd1233e4d598c360d670fee9a4d\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Hunting and Fishing: What recent announcements has he made about Herds of Special Interest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f229d441f43846149c283559376d8653\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f229d441f43846149c283559376d8653\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER (Minister for Hunting and Fishing):\u003C/span\u003E On Saturday, I was with the Prime Minister at the hugely successful Sika Show, where we announced the opening of public consultation on the draft herd management plans for wapiti deer in parts of Fiordland National Park and sika deer in the Kaimanawa and K\u0101weka forest parks. These plans outline a proposed new approach to sustainably managing these two herds. The changes will allow hunter-led conservation groups to better manage herd numbers, improve our native biodiversity, and create opportunities for economic growth and jobs in those regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ad9f402f06844c586a6f2f904712412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223104964fc6d24d7fa8487e528da517f9\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: Why are these draft herd management plans needed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4f8bb3881f04e44b553b63bcad02b19\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: A herd management plan is required before the Minister can designate a Herd of Special Interest. These draft plans contain the blueprint for how we can sustainably manage sika and wapiti deer numbers, enhance ecological monitoring, strengthen community stewardship of the herds, and improve our biodiversity. These plans are now open for public consultation so that all members can make a contribution and ensure that we reflect the values of our local communities in Fiordland and in the Central Plateau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ad9f402f06844c586a6f2f904712412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207ee09e0320b49f8a5b3fec8eb1197fa\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: How will Herds of Special Interest influence conservation outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286765834c74c4bf793c4589827027d55\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: Herds of Special Interest represent an exciting opportunity for all New Zealanders to better sustainably manage deer numbers in these two herds. By managing these herds for their hunting attributes, we can achieve smaller herd numbers and healthier animals. That means better environmental outcomes, enhanced canopy recovery, better meat recovery for our wh\u0101nau and families, and more valuable hunting opportunities. It is a win-win for hunting and conservation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229ad9f402f06844c586a6f2f904712412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e5a00416f43473397c004da8919e9b3\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: How can Kiwis have their say on draft herd management plans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293aa4e61da2a4411ba32f343acac3d14\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: Anyone, including members, can have their say on the Department of Conservation website. I would like to encourage all interested parties to have their say. Let us know what needs to be improved or changed in order for these plans to deliver the best possible Herds of Special Interest. Consultation opened on Monday and is open until Monday, 8 December.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c17d17cdce4442ed8251e05aeec24ce6\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: How does a Herd of Special Interest management plan recognise the hard work that hunters do on the ground as conservationists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223fa71773cda24d3da2773c797fbba84e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f7a97cf0cfe4c879c2f7328c3793674\u0022\u003EHon JAMES MEAGER\u003C/span\u003E: Fantastic question, from one of our best hunter-conservationists in this House. These draft plans highlight the fact that hunters are one of our biggest conservation assets, and the plans actually acknowledge the contribution that they make to maintaining a healthy ecosystem. I can only point to examples of the great work done by the Central North Island Sika Foundation in leading the Kaimanawa whio duck recovery project or the Fiordland Wapiti Foundation, who operate over 500 predator control traps. These are just some of the many, many, many examples of hunter-led conservation in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af6b9026ce7b4884a27469f09ae5b872\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Government\u2019s Response to the Royal Commission\u2019s Report into Historical Abuse in State Care and in the Care of Faith-based Institutions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcee09c75991460ea988a40f6d1de7c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcee09c75991460ea988a40f6d1de7c7\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Lead Coordination Minister for the Government\u2019s Response to the Royal Commission\u2019s Report into Historical Abuse in State Care and in the Care of Faith-based Institutions: Does she stand by her statement regarding her abuse in care redress decisions in May that \u201Chere is what we can do now, we can do quickly, we can get in place so that we can prioritise that certainty and surety for survivors\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022 data-id=\u002270d6e094316b451eae829d9373c7aeb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270d6e094316b451eae829d9373c7aeb9\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Lead Coordination Minister for the Government\u2019s Response to the Royal Commission\u2019s Report into Historical Abuse in State Care and in the Care of Faith-based Institutions):\u003C/span\u003E Can I first acknowledge the National Day of Reflection for abuse in care tomorrow. In response to the question: yes, in context. The context was about prioritising improvements to the current State redress system that could be delivered quickly and would make an immediate difference to survivors. So I can advise the House that since those comments were made in May, in the June to September quarter, 1,056 new claims for abuse in care were lodged with agencies. This is a 114\u00A0percent increase in new claims on the previous quarter. This shows that survivors have responded to the certainty that the Government redress decisions provided. In addition, over $13\u00A0million has been paid in top-up payments to over 1,100 survivors. This is an average of almost $12,000 per survivor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aff46c46bc4942c9b32146648774dab1\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: How has the Minister prioritised speed and certainty for survivors when a survivor died before getting her claim settled because she had to fill in additional forms about her criminal history?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b5827b48a43489ba020ad42564e843a\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: There is a process for those who are terminally ill to have an exemption from that process. The process is that it comes directly to me and I sign it off. One of those has come to me and it was signed off on the same day it was delivered. In that particular situation, Health New Zealand did not follow the correct process, but I can advise that the payment will be made to the estate of that survivor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274f613441cab430ca4c996156436aecb\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Is lawyer Sonja Cooper correct to ask, \u201CWhy should somebody who is terminally ill, hospitalised, unable to move, in their last [few] weeks or months of life, why should they be put through this additional hurdle to get redress when it is hard enough, in any event, to go through the redress processes?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222299612390b4dcabd948dc3f0e9cd04\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: There is no additional step. The exact same step that you have to follow when you are terminally ill as a survivor to get your claim expedited is exactly the same as to get through this other process. All you have to do is show that you are terminally ill. It\u2019s the same process. There is no additional step. So the person who is terminally ill provides the report to show they\u2019re terminally ill and, in the back end, we do all the rest. There is no additional step for the survivor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de49baf1413744b08c293a67826ea5f7\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she requiring survivors to fill in forms about their criminal offending before the legislation is even passed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f86be3a869a4b538de26c1c5a816f57\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member were to read the legislation, she\u2019d understand the answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022006ab8010b58459f8950206cbfd771c0\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she inform a survivor that their claim was not paused when the Ministry of Social Development told them their claims could not progress to settlement until the legislation is finalised or the new declaration and consent forms are ready?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2168c7fe0a0407a9a9db34c21723535\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t remember saying that. If the member wants to put that in writing to me, I\u2019ll be able to respond. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd05391e50594ddab4d4793e338e5da0\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she promise speed, certainty, and surety for survivors in her May announcement, yet months later, claims were not progressing because of her new legislation and new forms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022625b767707f6446e8d6a0fe3b7de0c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b75012dc2cd454299332df76e66c042\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, since we have made that announcement, we have put a huge amount of resource into making sure that there are more people processing claims. I can say that we took the amount of claims being processed from 1,100 a year up to 1,550 a year, and this year we are on track to exceed that number because of the hard work that we are doing. So we are providing more certainty and more surety to survivors, and that is exemplified in the fact that more survivors are coming forward to make their claims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f5749a23adda44e685a73c13b69e1e1d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022 data-id=\u002246c90ba50d9f486993047651cf7c94e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246c90ba50d9f486993047651cf7c94e1\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: E tautoko ana ia i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 mahi katoa a t\u014Dna K\u0101wanatanga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003EDoes he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a40e6f624a58422dbf122bfebfa6b7e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a40e6f624a58422dbf122bfebfa6b7e7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b8265c1a9ce494abd9fc0f780bcda1e\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister guarantee that every New Zealander\u2014particularly our young people\u2014can get the support that they need to prevent them from sleeping homeless on the street tonight?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223375cb94898146c78a8b9f0aae975906\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s what this Government is doing. We\u2019ve done a good job of making sure housing affordability is in place for owners and renters; we\u2019ve taken about 5,000 people off the social housing wait-list; we\u2019ve taken people out of emergency housing; and we\u2019re continuing to support people who are in homeless situations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220170ea016589406d99323505b23549bc\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Why will the Prime Minister not commit to ensuring that all New Zealanders\u2014especially our young people\u2014get the support that they need to prevent them from sleeping rough on the street tonight?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c900a1473fc48119b36b23874a15489\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this Government\u2019s undertaken quite a few actions, as was announced by Ministers just recently. We\u2019ve put $10 million of additional funding into support services for rough sleepers in exactly that situation; we\u2019ve expanded the Housing First programme with another 300 spaces\u2014I think 100 of the 300 have been allocated already, and 200 of the 300 are actually in Auckland itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7da60d6860141bc9c8967439d9b1548\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the local MP doing about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022912ec751c24344859d80da069bd5fa8c\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister guarantee that a job is available for every young person who he has decided to make access to the jobseeker support more difficult for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f43620636c27477697ecda05c1f8e96e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is a Government that wants to see young people connected to employment, training, and education, and we are putting expectations on our 18- to 19-year-olds to do exactly that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a78079cc1d1462f85666c1f99ff728e\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister read the advice to his Government from his officials that introducing his new barriers to young people\u2019s access to jobseeker support will not reduce barriers to employment and could actually increase unemployment, or is he just ignoring like he did the advice that his decisions would make more people homeless?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f86d4d8169eb4d55b596d4501136af2f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m proud of our record on housing, and when I consider that against a Labour-Greens Government that had a fourfold increase in State housing wait-lists, that actually drove up house prices by 30 percent in a single year, and drove rents up $180 per week\u2014we\u2019ve taken 3,000 people out of emergency housing and put them into homes, and we are supporting homelessness. When the Greens member had their own Minister, homelessness went up 37\u00A0percent despite spending a billion dollars on it. Our record on housing beats that record on housing any day of the week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c8b2aaac9e64def80e56d6a8d5fe4fc\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: If the Prime Minister chose to resource housing and job creation for all of our young people, would it cost more or less than his $3 billion tax cut to landlords?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229123a195e99f401785bfe37cb36457a6\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m actually proud of the tax cuts that we made to working New Zealanders\u2014the people that Labour and the Greens used to purport to care about, but didn\u2019t, and didn\u2019t support that initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9516cff90834b6e98d30736fc97a30f\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave of the House to address the questions from one of our co-Deputy Prime Ministers about what the Auckland Central MP is doing about this homelessness issue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219db46898ebc4fa2be0bb2f836974316\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I can\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022617642714cc44a6fbf4ff8c1d14d1481\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which this Government has exacerbated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022365dc1a422b44515945024827aaf7dc2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014[Interruption] I\u2019m sorry\u2014[Interruption] Excuse me. I didn\u2019t hear what she just said. Could you say it slowly and clearly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022002041ee93e94d75a55bbf80fb803f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e53dd0447ea4e6c97bb953bdf50d177\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: I was seeking leave of the House to address the questions put to me by one of our co-Deputy Prime Ministers about what the Auckland Central MP is doing about the issue of homelessness, which this Government has exacerbated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022799d3cc9161f41108ab9cceaf5881909\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you can\u2019t seek leave on behalf of someone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfa32c2d07634ce6b41dda78a4bf4c8d\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to jobseeker support, is the Prime Minister aware that a couple of M\u0101oris are about to become unemployed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d952f58fe32e4d23b8f5ea4ab6b81d05\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is a Government that actually offers support to all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f72dbd05bf31496fab0dd97ecfb032c5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Have Ministers received any advice\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca2308e36f8547b3a48d0eedea5143a8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014sorry, Rt Hon Chris Hipkins, there are people behind you speaking. There are people throughout the House who are speaking. The next one who speaks will be leaving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226569cbf8780844f8bfdb4ffc1d620212\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Have Ministers received any advice on potential law changes to move-on homeless people from central business districts, and, if Ministers have, why did the Prime Minister tell the House last week that they hadn\u2019t?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296074e3598fe49e3ab0b1a030385451a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Because the member\u2019s question was different from the one that he\u2019s just posed now. I\u2019d just say that the Minister for Auckland, as I have said, subsequently, over the course of the last week, is going to do everything we can to make sure that the CBD is safe for Aucklanders. When we have cruise season upon us, when we have major events, a convention centre, and the City Rail Link opening up, we want people to be able to go into the Auckland CBD and not be intimidated. We are considering move-on orders, but we need to make sure the support is in place so that those folk, when they are moved-on, actually have somewhere to go and we don\u2019t move the problem around the city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f00d1698c5949f2b75e35548a1d28e3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will he guarantee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224152374e703c40b381455ba09f520050\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Wait on\u2014just wait for the House to settle itself. This is a bad day. There is too much discussion going on on the Government benches while questions are being asked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002250f5bb7d5a8746cf826d89cfc3794c78\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad8fd75c37a240c7a03ac55dd46900b5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will he guarantee that homeless people won\u2019t simply be moved into outer suburbs or other areas out of CBDs because they don\u2019t have anywhere to go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d7665fe41244263af300b6e89ffa9e2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I can guarantee is that we are not a Government that is putting emergency housing and 501 deportees into downtown Auckland CBD to create unsafe environments for other citizens. We take this very seriously\u2014that\u2019s why we\u2019ve increased police on the beat in the CBD, and that has helped in some dimensions. That is why a Minister for Auckland is actually engaging with NGOs, Government agencies, and local government to actually identify what solutions\u2014together, collectively\u2014we can do. That is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022528134adfa6c4ba1a72e2cdf9c07bd9e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b5c32aab6ac4b7dbb95cdc834b6bc30\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that thousands of visitors to Queen Street fear for their own safety and that it\u2019s not purely an issue of homelessness, but potential criminality, drug taking, and people defending victimhood?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f02a45d1f7c4f6996fec688f1c95178\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can. Many Aucklanders in Auckland refuse to go into the CBD for exactly that reason. We are opening up cruise ship season, where visitors from overseas are coming to our country, and that is their experience in the Auckland CBD. We will fix it up\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bb14af19e8f4da98574e8c1756303cd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222adf1703abb74330b3558ab954e253bc\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014another mess created by the Labour-Greens Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022861d59a0267548b3934cbb036acf3c7c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab45fe7dddff4046a3107aaf385796ea\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but we\u2019ll sort it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022725d331f3cc14b5b8058f6979314257a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just stop. We\u2019re going to hear the answer in absolute silence. Barracking across the House like that is totally unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f9ae365344c42b18b070f9f6a8c8cfd\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Sir, I don\u2019t dispute that direction whatsoever, but it needs to be pointed out that it is extremely difficult to expect order in the House when Ministers regularly ignore the clear guidance and direction that you have given on the quality of answers. The Prime Minister, just then, used that answer, given to him by his own Minister, to have a swipe at the Opposition. No wonder there was disorder as a result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dc3a5c17190423f9ab42ec77d40d21a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the reality is that I just couldn\u2019t hear it\u2014that\u2019s why I intervened and said we\u2019ll hear it in silence. If there is such commentary, it\u2019ll be stopped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bce0b54dfd1e4bfda659e7958b5ac04e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225246ba39584848579d131707fdf5e043\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No New Zealander wants to see homelessness in this country. The previous Government would acknowledge that they spent a billion dollars on emergency housing, and homelessness went up 37 percent. That only speaks to the complexity of the issues around homelessness. What we are doing as a Government is working with many agencies and NGOs to actually get a solution in Auckland CBD, because it has to change. It will be different, and this Government will get that job done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022628acba9adf346548657926a24aca277\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d60d522a3e1f4983b131d7d6dd07fa51\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Environment Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b2913a5784c469e9b6ed96d1c1599a5\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Environment Committee: Why did an advertisement go out in her name allowing only 11 days for submissions on the Fast-track Approvals Amendment Bill when there was no instruction from the House for a report deadline under six months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022 data-id=\u002214bc1faab2d64ab39077c4589806d977\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214bc1faab2d64ab39077c4589806d977\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (Chairperson of the Environment Committee):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has been clear to the public that it expects the Fast-track Approvals Amendment Bill to be passed before the end of the year. As the chair of the Environment Committee, I agree, as does the majority of the committee; therefore, as per Standing Order 198, I set out a timetable to ensure this expectation is met. I would like to point the member to Parliamentary Practice in New Zealand, which makes clear that chairs can, and do, frequently call for submissions on the committee\u2019s behalf, and that the chair\u2019s actions are subject to the direction from the committee and must be endorsed by the committee at its next meeting. As that member knows, the Environment Committee voted, by majority, to endorse this call for submissions on Monday, 10 October. The Government has been clear to the public that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f406705c115445baa191b3b5e829b14\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s good\u2014that\u2019s probably enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223383466f50d540caa6db27e5e0c7ed16\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they want to deliver benefits to Kiwi shoppers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2bff6c35fac41bebc8a93ef7aa56601\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5d6a589b3d54f7eadb660e1397769e5\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014as soon as possible\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c972a113b104691aa490c479e3b047c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1d26263dc9343589dcf2b1d34e0f797\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216bb62ffed1a4b92aee78ea2b0bfedcd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c792f692416465bba2d2ee2f4d0285c\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much, sir. The member is being asked a question in her capacity as chair of the Environment Committee. Is it appropriate for that member, therefore, to be using the answer to a serious question, which was straight to the point, to be broadcasting what her view of the Government\u2019s intentions are? I believe that is going beyond her responsibility to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c597fdb2ae324a43bf8c310667b3365d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the question did ask why she made a decision. The answer was far too long, but it did appropriately point to the Standing Orders and also Parliamentary Practice. That would back up the point, and make further the point, that any decision by a chair has to be backed by the committee, which, clearly, it was. The Hon Rachel Brooking, one supplementary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fe581f5dd2b4a0fbab1e5aa8b99e7ad\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Given the answer that has been provided to this question by Rachel Brooking, can I ask how on earth did this question get on the Order Paper? Because it\u2019s all there\u2014no instruction from the House. Well, the House actually sent the bill to a select committee; the committee gave the instruction. So how did this question get here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022059be693af50416c995b4cef47736b97\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, members are able to ask questions under the Standing Orders. If something that should be patently obvious to everybody is not obvious to the person asking the question, then it can be answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022714c58ae2d814a86a1969e1d7e938b8b\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Which Ministers or ministerial advisers, if any, did she communicate with about the 11-day submission deadline before the advertisement was issued?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239d052c330114102ac2c37be20eb2dcc\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not responsible for that particular decision. As the chair of the committee, I acted under Standing Order 198 to make a call for submissions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1e7d0130e5d4caaae35fb5e2e5bdde8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good. That\u2019s enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ae7a20755f94708a37076c1002b38e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc195e55948c4d6c94f4cfad01b6ad35\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to open up submissions, and this was within Parliamentary Practice\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2d7bcb94daa49d8b4492b5999a16a03\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you\u2014that\u2019s enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226aa49b52fc94478eb94a0c0dd6a474ff\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e36ac88fc7684153aea5f9860d3e846b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It needs to be a fresh and genuine point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022311eba0f075e448993bb59225ea956bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abe7edea56fd4e67affe42c54f075f6a\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: I refer you, therefore, sir, to Speaker\u2019s ruling 185/2, made by Speaker Smith, which dealt with this exact situation. In the answer to the primary question, the member outlined that she made the decision, which was subsequently backed up by the committee. It is, therefore, I believe, inappropriate, or certainly not living up to the requirements of her to address the question, to say it is not her responsibility when she has actually just informed the House that she made the decision. The question as to whether she liaised with or consulted with or, indeed, was instructed by a Minister is entirely valid, and the House deserves a response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d87883d4dfa546659aa260fdcdb85ab6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That may have been how you interpreted the question; it\u2019s certainly not how I interpreted it. I think the response that was given was satisfactory, and that ends the member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022097fd37549ab499dbf68d2be689ae6a3\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002213721ff12c8d4823a418746e8b54449b\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022 data-id=\u002231a5562524d94c5f8fa5314f4b5c348d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231a5562524d94c5f8fa5314f4b5c348d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the sitting of the House today be extended into tomorrow morning to consider the following Government orders of the day: consideration in committee of the Regulatory Standards Bill; the third reading of the Medicines Amendment Bill; consideration in committee of the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill; the second reading of the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill; consideration in committee of the Crimes Legislation (Stalking and Harassment) Amendment Bill; and the second reading of the Overseas Investment (National Interest Test and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229c1d26ab95b549f6b2a6f7759aa80bb4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u00225884a29917374303889b0c6f34eaadc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225884a29917374303889b0c6f34eaadc7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those who are leaving the House need to do so without any discussion on the way\u2014very quietly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022 data-id=\u0022881c7b08c2db451d9f5fa81543089852\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022881c7b08c2db451d9f5fa81543089852\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae8ecd6c5f6845149f6773c9b60d93c4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re just, it\u2019s unusual to take\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdb4cc3c51ca4190bb41fb2cbdcacbf8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I know, but I seek leave to see the Green Party Whip\u2019s authority for the last two votes that they cast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebe6dd1f81184fc9a95fb6bda54eb37f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebe6dd1f81184fc9a95fb6bda54eb37f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m aware that they have the authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267520d12731b4986b2e2595583059ba9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re aware that they have the authority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a8069457dd4e0496410723c32cc2b4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am. I\u2019ve been notified by the members that the Green Party carries their proxy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0f5933f19ee4f8ea7de2620d753d86b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but have you seen them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0ae0bd26cb54f7b9fe49379e414c605\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t have to see them. I\u2019m allowed to take members at their word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6bc3dda9e9d4ca18d2691e46a4613a1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s a mistake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7d2292f255d43b9954071b91ae3a5e3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve been giving the member the benefit of the doubt for the last couple of years. We will have silence while the vote is called.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224510d1ca29ba488fa845df21ce8547b2\u0022\u003ERacing Industry (Closure of Greyhound Racing Industry) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da4703fbfe3f4f7595a743e6eebbb94c\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc512211ddd14a05a05a99fce3bf3cac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc512211ddd14a05a05a99fce3bf3cac\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister for Racing):\u003C/span\u003E In the first person pronoun, we present a legislative statement on the Racing Industry (Closure of Greyhound Racing Industry) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4e84e5066d7454abc8098a8fc50c5b6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the parliamentary website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cfadc3378264a5e9ce6895b88959d5f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: We move, That the Racing Industry (Closure of Greyhound Racing Industry) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. We nominate the Primary Production Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, we intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 13 March 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003ESince 2021, the greyhound racing industry has been on notice, after three successive reviews over a decade all found animal welfare concerns and a need for change. These concerns clearly put the industry\u2019s social licence to operate under threat, and in December last year, the decision was finally made to close commercial greyhound racing in New Zealand from 1 August 2026. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003EThis decision was not taken lightly. Many MPs are adverse to any business shutting down. It was acknowledged that the industry, in Greyhound Racing New Zealand, had undertaken genuine efforts in recent years to improve animal welfare. However, it was considered that the rate of dogs being seriously injured remained too high, and the improvements made were not significant enough for the industry to retain its social licence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003EThe decision to close was also taken against the backdrop of greyhound racing declining worldwide. Since December 2024, Wales, Tasmania, and Scotland have all followed suit. It is pleasing to note that Greyhound Racing New Zealand has withdrawn its judicial review against the Government. We encourage members of Greyhound Racing New Zealand and the wider racing community to actively engage in the select committee process and focus on the way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003ETo close our own industry, a carefully managed approach has been undertaken. The approach comprises two bills. The first bill was the Racing Industry (Unlawful Destruction of Specified Greyhounds) Amendment Bill 2024, which unanimously passed all stages of this House on 10\u00A0December last year. That bill was to prevent the unnecessary killing of racing dogs as the announcement of an incoming enclosure meant that racing greyhounds became less economically valuable or viable, and I thank members across the House for their unanimous support of that bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003EIt was necessary that the first bill was passed under urgency to immediately put in place protections for the greyhounds themselves, and it was undertaken in the knowledge that a second, more substantive bill that would close the industry would follow and allow for public input. That leads us to the second bill, the bill before the House today, the Racing Industry (Closure of Greyhound Racing Industry) Amendment Bill. This bill\u2019s primary intent is to close the industry in a way which prioritises greyhound welfare and the wellbeing of greyhound racing participants throughout the closure process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003EThis bill is based on the recommendations of the Greyhound Racing Ministerial Advisory Committee, which was established to provide expert independent advice on the closure and oversight. The committee, which is comprised of Heather Simpson as chair and Lindsay Burton and Murray Johnson as members, has met and continues to meet with a range of industry bodies and organisations. They\u2019ve also maintained close contact with Greyhound Racing New Zealand. From those meetings, the committee delivered a report at the end of May, with a set of detailed recommendations for the legislative changes needed to close the industry in a measured way. Thank you to the committee for its ongoing hard work and its well-informed report, and thank you to all of those who were engaged with the committee in good faith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003EAfter further consideration, the committee\u2019s report was released in August, alongside the announcement that the Government agreed with the committee\u2019s recommendations and would proceed with a bill that implements those recommendations. The bill sets out the framework for a transition to closure for the industry which prioritises the welfare of greyhounds and is concerned with the smooth transition out of the industry for affected people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003ETo provide a well-managed closure, this bill comes into effect over three stages. This will ensure a framework for closure is in place before commercial greyhound racing ends on 1 August 2026. It will also allow sufficient time for some subsequent work to wind up the greyhound racing industry, such as ensuring that greyhounds are successfully rehomed over time. The first stage will be from the day after Royal assent and lays down the framework for closure ahead of 1 August 2026. This stage will see the establishment of the transition agency responsible for ensuring that a transition plan relating to Greyhound Racing New Zealand is in place to wind up the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s intended that the current members of the Ministerial Advisory Committee would be appointed to the board of the transition agency, and collectively these members hold relevant skills and experience in governance, project management, and animal welfare. These members have built their necessary relationships to continue working with the industry, and it\u2019s in everyone\u2019s best interests that engagement in good faith continues. The agency would be responsible, amongst other things, for ensuring a transition plan is in place, closing Greyhound Racing New Zealand (GRNZ) and clubs, facilitating greyhound rehoming, and supporting industry participants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003EThe second stage is from 1 August 2026 and will bring the actual closure of commercial greyhound racing in this country. This stage will see the removal of references to greyhound racing from the Racing Industry Act, so it is no longer permitted. During this stage, Greyhound Racing New Zealand will be dissolved and appropriate remaining functions will be transferred to the agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003EFinally, the third stage will see the repeal of provisions relating to the agency. While the bill anticipates the agency will have completed its function within three years, it allows for some flexibility in timing in case there is still some outstanding work at that time. Hence, the third stage comes into force on a date set by Order in Council, but no later than 31 July 2031. We might possibly still be around to see what\u2019s going on at the time! Once disestablished, any residual assets held by the agency would be distributed to the other racing codes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003EThis transition to closure needs to be as smooth as possible. Members of the greyhound racing industry, wider stakeholders, and the general public are all encouraged to engage with the select committee process so that this bill and this process is as robust as possible. It should also be noted that, whilst the select committee is undertaking its consideration of the bill, the Ministerial Advisory Committee will continue its work to lay the groundwork for the transition agency. This includes ongoing work with greyhound rehoming organisations to identify what practical steps are desirable to scale up the rehoming effort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003EFinally, greyhounds make great companion animals, and we encourage New Zealanders to consider adopting them as the industry is wound up. We will need to find these dogs homes. In conclusion, the bill is commended to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022 data-id=\u002237ada3dbc6374fdc967944928710d064\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237ada3dbc6374fdc967944928710d064\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I call\u2014away you go!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022 data-id=\u00222c4e7914992b48edac22cd68d0408e97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c4e7914992b48edac22cd68d0408e97\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I know that you know that. It\u2019s always a question of which \u201CRachel B\u201D is it in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003EIt is a pleasure to take a call on the Racing Industry (Closure of Greyhound Racing Industry) Amendment Bill as Labour spokesperson for animal welfare. Just noting at the beginning of this short call that Labour will be supporting this bill, and our hope is that this bill will receive unanimous support from across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003ECan I just begin by acknowledging the Minister and thanking him for his work on this important transition approach to ending greyhound racing in New Zealand. Where we are today is a continuation of work that was begun under the previous Labour Government. Can I begin, as well, by acknowledging our previous racing Ministers Grant Robertson and Kieran McAnulty, both of whom did significant groundwork to address the animal welfare concerns that existed within industry to get us to this point\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003EJust to begin, I just wanted to acknowledge that for many people working in the greyhound industry this decision will have a significant impact on the people who work in this industry\u2014who train dogs, who race dogs\u2014and who have done that for most of their lives; many of whom are part of generational families who have worked in the greyhound industry. This will have an impact on their lives and their livelihoods. Can we acknowledge that for those people, they will need that transition support. We acknowledge in the Labour Party that there is that need for fairness\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3421c47b95e43b0a0c8a30392b77297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e26dd79be5c4cc2a7138208630ad85d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment. OK, carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f2dc79fa6594d3aa2c9f3fd1ed43313\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: We acknowledge within the Labour Party that there is that need for fairness and for meaningful support for those involved in the industry who will need to be transitioning into other work, and so we acknowledge that for those people today will be a difficult day in their working careers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it formally ends commercial greyhound racing in New Zealand by 1\u00A0August 2026. As I noted earlier, there have been a number of reviews into greyhound racing. The industry was put on notice. They were told that if things weren\u2019t significantly improved, that the industry was likely to close. I want to acknowledge that there have been some improvements made by industry, but those improvements have not gone far enough. They have not been enough in order to ensure that this industry could continue. The social licence to operate greyhound racing has been lost. I note that in the 2024 to 2025 season there were 17 greyhound deaths, which was an increase on the previous year. Just at the end of October, two greyhounds were killed in Invercargill as a result of spinal injuries due to racing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003EAs animal welfare spokesperson, I hear from members of the public. The public of New Zealand cannot tolerate this any further. It is clear from reports in the media and from engagement with the people of New Zealand that the social licence for greyhound racing has been lost and people are no longer willing to see dogs perish or be injured as a result of this practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003EWhat I think will be the most important thing to do, alongside supporting those who\u2019ve worked in this industry, is ensuring that animals are rehomed. What I\u2019m pleased to see as part of the transition plan is that it will continue to do that work alongside organisations like the SPCA, like Greyhounds as Pets, and other organisations to ensure that these dogs can be suitably rehomed. I\u2019ve said in the House before that if I didn\u2019t already own two labradors, I\u2019d probably look at adopting one of these beautiful animals. They are wonderful pets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003EThey aren\u2019t for every family. Some people would prefer cats\u2014Camilla Belich. So people do need to take a considered view around\u2014like they should anytime they adopt a companion animal, they should do so knowing that they have the ability to care properly for that animal. But can I encourage New Zealanders who are listening to this debate today, who are following this in the media, to seriously consider adopting a greyhound? We will need to see a significant number of New Zealanders over the coming weeks and months adopt a greyhound into their family. They can be, as Kieran McAnulty often points out, exceptionally lazy. Then when they do want to chase something, they can go at a wicked pace, as we sometimes see with his dog, Zoi, down the corridors of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242b5ebdb6f674431af475c66a771f231\u0022\u003ESo I commend this bill to the House. I thank the Minister for his work in leading this change today. I do encourage New Zealanders to get in behind the rehoming programme. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022738753bc329647d4a41d24a7d59edbac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022738753bc329647d4a41d24a7d59edbac\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise today to speak on behalf of the Green Party in support of the Racing Industry (Closure of Greyhound Racing Industry) Amendment Bill. This bill is underpinned by an important principle and a strongly held New Zealand cultural value, which is that New Zealanders don\u2019t want to see animals suffer. It\u2019s a simple principle. Whenever there is a survey done, whether it\u2019s in regard to companion animals or farm animals or animals in entertainment, overwhelmingly, we have a strong-held cultural view that animals shouldn\u2019t suffer. They should not be the subject of cruelty. They should not live miserable lives. Unfortunately, in the case of the greyhound industry, there has been years of evidence and facts, in regard to the operation of that industry, that have brought us to the point where it is clear that this is not an industry that has a place in a country that holds to that principle of animals having a good life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003EFor a long time, the Green Party have called for an end to the greyhound racing industry. I want to acknowledge previous member Mojo Mathers, who, in 2016, presented the first petition by the greyhound protection league calling for a ban on greyhound racing. I want to acknowledge the campaigns that were run in the 2020s. My colleague Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, in 2022, introduced a member\u2019s bill with the help of Save Animals from Exploitation (SAFE) and the Animal Law Association to ban greyhound racing. I adopted that bill on my entry to Parliament in 2023 and only removed that bill from the member\u2019s tin because of the announcement by the Minister that it was the intention of this Government to bring in a ban on greyhound racing. We commend that intention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003EI cannot put it any more clearly than how the Minister himself put when he said, \u201CThe bottom line is too many dogs continue to die and be seriously injured, and it is time to do the right thing.\u201D. For those people watching to understand the extent of the harm that comes to greyhounds and the extent of that death toll, just to be clear, in the 2023-24 season, there were 145 greyhounds that died or were euthanised. In the 2022-23 season, there was 145, and in the 2021-2022 season, there were 236. These dogs are doing what they are bidden do, which is race, but very often that leads to serious, fatal injuries or injuries that are so irreparable that the dogs must be euthanised. There are very high rates of euthanasia in this industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003EOne of our concerns is that dogs will be exported for racing. In April this year, the Goldstar Racing training organisation exported 80 dogs to Australia to continue racing. We\u2019ve made it clear: our expectation is that the legislation should ensure that there is a prohibition on the export of dogs for continued racing. We also note the Minister\u2019s comments that they will be re-homed, not re-racetracked, and we support that principle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c422447af22e4c89a5e5b07cb11295e0\u0022\u003EJust to finish, greyhounds are gentle animals, they are loyal dogs, and they do love to run but not, perhaps, as much as they would if they were being raced. We want to see them put into loving, caring homes where they will be free to run of their own volition, not because they are compelled to. They make great companion animals, and we support the call of colleagues across the House that we would love to see New Zealanders step up and take these greyhounds into their homes and rehome them so that they can live out a good life, having been part of this racing industry that is coming to an end, and rightly so. We commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f92a3dc19bff43f18e7129fc25d35864\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f92a3dc19bff43f18e7129fc25d35864\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in very cautious support of this bill. To speak frankly, this bill is taking away people\u2019s property rights. For the first time in our history, the State is stepping in to takeover and shut down an entire sport. It is the Government deciding that an industry people have built with their own hands, their own money, and their own passion no longer deserves to exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003EI know emotions run hot on this issue, but when feelings are running high, that\u2019s exactly when Parliament needs to keep its head. Behind all the noise, we cannot forget the people whose lives are being upended by this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003EWhen the Labour - New Zealand First - Green Government rushed through their firearms ban, ACT stood with the people affected. We went out and listened, we heard their frustration and their sense of betrayal. Today, this House and its members must do the same for the greyhound community. They deserve to be heard, not shut out and dismissed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003EUnlike some, I, alongside ACT MPs, have met the people affected. I went to the races in Christchurch to see the sport in action. I have sat down with Greyhound Racing New Zealand, with owners, trainers, and their families who have poured generations of work and love into this sport. What we have here is heartbreaking. They\u2019ve written letters, they\u2019ve asked for meetings, they\u2019ve begged for a chance to be heard since this was announced, and they have been ignored. These people are not the type of people that some people make them out to be: villains. They are good, hardworking New Zealanders who have done everything the Government has asked of them. They have followed the rules. They have poured millions of dollars into ensuring the safety of these animals during their racing lives, as well as getting them rehomed. They love their greyhounds, and they are now being told that their livelihoods are being taken away, while other people in this community and in this House celebrate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003EI keep hearing the argument that greyhound racing has lost its social licence. But I ask: how long until it\u2019s rodeo\u2014or roe-dayo? How long until it\u2019s the horses? If the Government can erase an entire industry because it\u2019s politically convenient, then no one is safe. What we\u2019re saying is that if enough people shout loudly, the State can trample over property rights, over livelihoods, and over communities built through generations. This is not just about racing; it\u2019s about property rights. It\u2019s about fairness. It\u2019s about a group of people, especially in rural New Zealand, who are losing a community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003EThere are some big questions that the select committee will need to answer. What will happen to the leftover assets built up over decades? What happens to TAB revenue from betting on dog racing outside New Zealand? And what happens to the thousand-odd people who depend on this work to feed their families? When the State takes something as fundamental as private property, it must answer to the people it is taking it from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281a465eb20294645bc63efa635c80cbf\u0022\u003EMy message to every MP and Minister here: go and meet the people this bill affects, look them in the eye, hear their stories. This isn\u2019t about a faceless industry; it\u2019s about families, generations deep, who are now on the verge of losing everything. The people in this industry aren\u2019t responsible for what past Governments or Ministers have done or spent. They deserve respect, understanding, and the basic dignity of being met face to face, and the least that we can do is listen to them. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3392ded4be0482e93648a73cac4b5c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3392ded4be0482e93648a73cac4b5c2\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I understand the point that my colleague from the ACT Party makes. This has been a well-signalled change. Over the last 12 months, I\u2019ve met with people from the industry; I\u2019ve met with those who oppose it; I\u2019ve met with those who rehome dogs like in my electorate in Manakau from the Great Mates team, but also those that work outside of the industry to rehome dogs. I don\u2019t think any of those that I\u2019ve met with would see this being about property; I think this, for them, is about passion. I think it\u2019s about the thing that they love.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003EWhat I have found in every person I\u2019ve engaged with is that they are passionate about these wonderful animals. They\u2019re passionate about what they do, and for those in the sport, they\u2019re really passionate about that as well. I do think this is a really significant step that we\u2019re taking. I do accept the argument that the world has moved on, that the social licence right around the world to continue in dog racing has been eroded, and that as much as this is a difficult decision, it is the right step to take at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eac32f149d894fa0ac22ecceb7393316\u0022\u003EI also think it\u2019s important to give these people a voice. That\u2019s why I hope and I encourage all of those I\u2019ve met with and those that I haven\u2019t to engage in the select committee process\u2014to have their say. I look forward to reading their submissions and to them having the chance, one last time, to have their say. But I do commend this bill to the House to move to the next stage at select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022 data-id=\u0022b333c8febccf45c999f3935032a91470\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b333c8febccf45c999f3935032a91470\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. A privilege to follow on from my colleague Tim Costley. I just want to reiterate a point we haven\u2019t actually so far this afternoon: that New Zealand at the moment is one of only five countries across the world where commercial greyhound racing is still permitted. It\u2019s not an easy decision that the Minister is making but it is the right one, because it\u2019s actually about reflecting our commitment to prioritising animal welfare while providing the industry the time and support that they need to bring about this change. Therefore I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022 data-id=\u0022438081bf30bb437cab1d26b37314a4a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022438081bf30bb437cab1d26b37314a4a8\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak on this piece of legislation. I want to acknowledge the Minister for Racing for bringing this to the House, and I want to acknowledge the previous members and Ministers that have worked on the piece of legislation up to this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EI just want to acknowledge some of the issues that Cameron Luxton raised in his speech and I don\u2019t believe that anybody in this House has made out the people that work in this industry to be villains. I don\u2019t believe anyone in the House has said that. In fact, what we have heard in this House and what this piece of legislation does is acknowledges that there are people who will be impacted by this decision, as the member who spoke previously said, that have perhaps been in this industry for generations. It is important that we do acknowledge that and acknowledge that it\u2019s not easy for anybody to be losing their job, and particularly in this day and age.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003ESo, again, nobody has accused these people of being villains but what we have said is that the industry has basically been on notice since 2021 and there have been constant calls for improvement in the industry. Sadly, for whatever reason, it hasn\u2019t happened as it should have. What we know is that New Zealand is a country that prides itself on its animal welfare standards, and what we see with this industry is that there is a really high risk of injury and death for these dogs when they race: broken legs, fractured skulls, spinal injuries, heart attack, and heat stroke. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EAfter an injury, they are simply euthanised because they are no longer deemed to be profitable for those who wish to race them. In fact, according to SAFE, since December of last year and as of 9\u00A0November 2025, 645 greyhounds have been injured, 93 have suffered fractures, and 17 have died. So this decision is the right decision and I am proud to be standing here as a member of the Labour Party that supports this piece of legislation. Greyhounds are gentle, social animals and if anyone has met Zoi, the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2019s dog, we can all attest to that. They might not be the smartest and they may not be the prettiest, but they are\u2014Kieran, don\u2019t judge me\u2014but they are certainly social, they are loyal, and they are absolutely lovely animals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting to note, as the Minister in his opening speech mentioned, there are several other countries who have followed suit since, since the Government announced that this was going to be happening. As the Minister mentioned, this is going to be a staged approach to the shutdown of this industry, and that is important because it does speak to the people who are involved in the industry, as far as jobs go. Re-homing\u2014and as my colleague Rachel Boyack mentioned, I do urge people or encourage people to look at adopting one of these greyhounds in order to ensure that they are sent to loving homes around the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003EThere were three options, I think, that were put before the Government with regard to this piece of legislation. One being that they stick with the status quo, no changes. Well, that\u2019s not acceptable to anyone, I don\u2019t think. Option 2\u2014industry continuation with increased oversight and regulation. But there were some concerns that outcomes and enforcement of animal welfare\u2014that it actually wouldn\u2019t happen appropriately, that it would only make slightly better improvements. Option 3, that would have the most positive impact for animal welfare, was to work through the closing down of this sector in a transitional way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022338bb35932d44d06893dfac0bf8d9b83\u0022\u003ESo I am pleased to be able to support this piece of legislation whilst acknowledging those that are going to be impacted by this and working with them; urge them to submit. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f6cd19edacb241b8a80e98f14f3742d5\u0022 data-id=\u002208470f4d01b64209a8a66fe28f7fa5b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f6cd19edacb241b8a80e98f14f3742d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208470f4d01b64209a8a66fe28f7fa5b0\u0022\u003EHon MELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to support this bill. I have to say that the decision was not taken lightly. It follows three independent reviews that were done about the industry back in 2013, 2017, and 2021, and it is for the welfare of the greyhounds. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce7ac3e847d349debebbbea37d4ab272\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce7ac3e847d349debebbbea37d4ab272\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to take a call on this bill and am very pleased to be able to take a call because Labour supports this bill. We\u2019ve heard other speakers talk about the welfare of greyhounds and I want to thank the Minister for his opening comments. I think it\u2019s really important in this day and age, as members in the House, that we try to achieve a balanced argument. What is important is that we\u2019ve heard more and more concerns from animal welfare supporters as to why, over time, with the reviews and all the work that has continued, as the Minister pointed out, that it is an important issue about animal welfare. New Zealanders want to come to a point where the industry has worked on trying to get better outcomes for the greyhounds, but we\u2019ve seen and we\u2019ve heard the injuries cannot be sustained. So it is important that the Minister has undergone, with appointing the ministerial advisory committee that has been set up, through a process and looked at the best options with Greyhound Racing New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EI do want to point out\u2014and I\u2019ve heard other colleagues from across the House talk about it\u2014the other side of the argument for those who have invested time and money and their careers to do with greyhound racing. We\u2019ve heard that the wellbeing of the industry specifically for these animals\u2014and we\u2019re quite lucky because, like my colleague Jo Luxton pointed out, we\u2019ve got Kieran McAnulty\u2019s greyhound, in terms of the approach that he had taken to adopt one of these animals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EThe bill ensures the framework in closing the industry, with the set date of 1 August, and that will have the upside and the downside. The downside will be for those who are affected by the closure of the industry. In particular, we\u2019ve heard that those who\u2019ve been in industry for quite a long time are affected. One of the things that they\u2019re asking about is: is there compensation? Is there going to be a transition period? Are their concerns going to be heard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EAgain, I go back to the earlier a point that I mentioned around compensation, but also around a balanced argument. Well, it\u2019s probably from their perspective that it\u2019s going to be an unbalanced time for them, specifically for those who have been in the industry for such a long time. They wanted to have their day in court. They wanted to be heard about their concerns about their investment of time, and they don\u2019t agree, because for their livelihoods this has a significant impact and is a significant step for the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4f8e4c00aa34365b6443a1a48463b03\u0022\u003EI do want to raise that through the transitional period there needs to be meaningful support, compassion, and also fairness for those who have worked in the industry: the trainers, the communities, and those who supported the activity. However, we\u2019ve come to a point now where we, in Labour, are supporting the decision, as we\u2019ve heard the Minister announce in this bill. It will have a major impact. I know we will have a committee stage in this process after the select committee process, but specifically, my plea is that the transitional authority that will be appointed to do that role, with the cost of the role of $60 million, that the steps in place\u2014again, I want to mention, just as I wrap up, the balance of hearing how those in the industry will have the opportunity to raise their concerns about when the industry is going to be closed, is going to be wrapped up. Will it be fair compensation? But Labour does support this step in this bill. I commend the bill to the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022 data-id=\u0022f63ad1e731354c56b4125073a7f2b552\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f63ad1e731354c56b4125073a7f2b552\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be able to take a very short call on the Racing Industry (Closure of Greyhound Racing Industry) Amendment Bill. We\u2019ve heard across the House that there\u2019s unanimous support for this very compassionate bill, and we\u2019ve also acknowledged that there will be a huge impact on those people involved in the industry. Without extending the time any longer, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022516f6882990e435c9cf2b489fc7b6884\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022516f6882990e435c9cf2b489fc7b6884\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Racing Industry (Closure of Greyhound Racing Industry) Amendment Bill be considered by the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002258eb7988000b42348859ac353eb4e55a\u0022\u003EInstruction to the Primary Production Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea9bd79d5de94d30839e943c8c06f782\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea9bd79d5de94d30839e943c8c06f782\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister for Racing):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Racing Industry (Closure of Greyhound Racing Industry) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 13 March 2026.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003EAnd I thank my colleagues for the abbreviated version of support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227b9d7951744240569e55387728ca5953\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad16f88a91ce444e909472bfd0f62fdd\u0022\u003ELand Transport Management (Time of Use Charging) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd32f821e1bc4f8099cb90b3701e72b3\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022 data-id=\u00221942ae1da58d489280de1ba48e489b67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221942ae1da58d489280de1ba48e489b67\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I present a legislative statement on the Land Transport Management (Time of Use Charging) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a03f3d75acf94e76af69ae807ab1cf6e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d9418e299c44d6a890002a216c151ff\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Land Transport Management (Time of Use Charging) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThis day marks a significant milestone in our journey towards a smarter and more efficient road network. This bill will cut congestion, boost productivity, and help futureproof our transport system. Today, we take a decisive step forward in tackling congestion and modernising how we manage road use in New Zealand. The bill creates an enabling framework that can be used to establish a time of use charging scheme anywhere in the country that needs it. This legislation is not just about traffic; it\u2019s about time, productivity, and the future of our cities. It places New Zealand amongst a growing number of countries embracing intelligent transport solutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThe design of the bill and the schemes that will be created under it\u2014or potentially created\u2014draw on international best practice with tailored findings to our unique needs. It enables targeted and adjustable charges that are designed to improve traffic flow and make better use of existing infrastructure. It embeds a partnership approach between local authorities and the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA), working together to design and deliver charging schemes. It puts strict limits around exemptions, to ensure time of use schemes are fair and effective and to reduce overhead and bureaucracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EWe had quite a debate in the committee stage of the bill\u2019s passage around whether or not there should be wider exemptions. I think Parliament has rightly decided that there are narrow exemptions in the bill for emergency vehicles and for school buses, for example, but anything wider than that leads to a potential slippery slope where, once you start one exemption, you keep going, and then, eventually, everyone\u2019s got an exemption, and the scheme becomes deficient. We have taken an agnostic approach to the use of technology, which means that, in the future, time of use schemes could interface with future road pricing mechanisms like fleet-wide road user charges, which, of course, the Government is advancing separately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003ETime of use charging is not about raising revenue; it\u2019s about improving network performance. Every scheme must show it will enhance traffic flow and efficiency, and it has to go through public consultation and impact assessments and will be subject to strong oversight. This is a really important point: net revenue raised through congestion pricing, or time of use pricing, will be reinvested directly into local public transport infrastructure, which means it supports better services and outcomes for those communities. The trade-off is quite simple: people pay a bit more to travel at peak times, which encourages them to travel at different times or to alter their behaviour or to use different routes, thus smoothing traffic across the road network and increasing productivity and efficiency. The revenue that is generated from that can be reinvested into the public transport options on the local road network, creating even greater options for people, and creating a synergistic feedback loop\u2014as someone said to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022283112a5b0b140c6be541e5a8d6f1f24\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: I love it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a885030b8d5c404087334fd07c6831e0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Now, listen, I\u2019m not one for big buzzwords like that, but I did quite like that\u2014synergistic feedback loop. When I first heard about that, I didn\u2019t know what it was, and I\u2019m still, today, not sure I\u2019m using it in the correct way. Anyway, there we go. What will be achieved is fewer hours stuck in traffic, more reliable traffic, and more reliable journey times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EI do want to thank the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. This is a bill that I was really determined to try and get cross-party support for. It is really important, and, I think I said in the second reading or maybe the first reading that Parliament, or at least New Zealand, has looked at congestion pricing since 1994; we\u2019re well over 30 years. I think the first New Zealand Institute of Economic Research report was 1994. Back then, it was a bit of a new concept, but in the meantime, lots of countries and jurisdictions have done it, and we\u2019ve sat there saying, \u201CThat sounds like a good idea. Maybe we should do that one day.\u201D Well, we\u2019re actually doing it, and to be fair to the previous Government, they did advance some legislation around that. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s as good as this piece of legislation, but they did take those first steps in that direction. When I talk about cross-party support in infrastructure and transport and bipartisanship, that\u2019s what this means, because, ultimately, if we\u2019re going to make this scheme work for New Zealand, we\u2019ve got to make sure that it enjoys broad support. It will be bumpy on the way through. I fully anticipate that the first scheme will be quite contentious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1990a427cfc43089fcb01f897174716\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Probably in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228954b6f9c0ba42c1b6cb9f7fff8472b6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019ll probably be in Auckland; Dan Bidois is right\u2014MP for Northcote. It will probably, almost certainly, be in Auckland. We\u2019ve already said we want to work closely with Auckland Council on the first scheme. It will be bumpy. Successive countries and jurisdictions that have done congestion pricing have found that people, broadly, don\u2019t like paying for things they think they\u2019ve already paid for. Fair enough. But, actually, once it starts\u2014and this was certainly the experience of New York, where I was three or four months ago\u2014and the benefits start to flow in terms of smoother journey times, reduced traffic at peak times, smog goes down, and safety improves, people go, \u201CThis is fantastic.\u201D, and, immediately, public opinion turns around. We\u2019ve just got to hold\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263c4f77abc3c40708e41dff933958cdc\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: Ride it out!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9f71004c2b44dcf9e4775e4e0681c11\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014ride it out. Literally ride it out. We\u2019ve just got to ride it out, Dana. We\u2019ve just got to hold our nerve as a polity and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207afd8eb1e3444f8907ec5e5061b49cf\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Foot on the accelerator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c8be583964a439ab2d56893493ac453\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, foot on the accelerator in a smooth, congestion-charged way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EI want to thank the committee for the work on it. It was really well led by Andy Foster, and I understand the committee worked quite hard to find common ground. The Government did cede some things through the committee process. Thank you to the public, who submitted on it, and to all the officials and the parliamentary staff. There has been a range of people working on this for a large number of years. In particular, I do want to thank Mr John Edwards, who members with long memories will know. He is the Ministry of Transport\u2019s lead official on the bill, and he will soon retire after four decades of service at the Ministry of Transport. Isn\u2019t that remarkable? Four decades; 40 years. I was going to say it\u2019s longer than I\u2019ve been alive, but that\u2019s not true anymore\u2014but 40 years, four decades, of service at the Ministry of Transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EWhen he began his career at the Ministry of Transport in 1986, back in the halcyon days of the fourth Labour Government, he worked on future road pricing policies, including, I am told, congestion charging\u2014all the way back in 1986. The first report might have been in 1994, but, actually, smart cookies in the bureaucracy have been talking about this and thinking about it for four decades. Isn\u2019t that remarkable? Here we are, in 2025, and we\u2019ll get congestion charging over the line in 2026 and 2027. I hope that Mr Edwards\u2014who I don\u2019t know well\u2014will get an opportunity to drive on the first congestion-charged scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d303d4c0d1724e369d7911fa0a861e7d\u0022\u003EThis has been a long time coming, and I think it is a significant achievement, actually. I think we will look back on this day with a great deal of pride. Certainly on behalf of the Government, we are proud of what has been developed, and we are looking forward to rolling it out. We know that it\u2019ll be a difficult journey at various points, and we know that it\u2019ll be a bumpy path along the way, but it is the right thing to do for productivity in our major cities, and I therefore commend the bill to the House. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002231b520e87e7e498fbf5fccb42b653671\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231b520e87e7e498fbf5fccb42b653671\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022 data-id=\u002276f555881ec24d01a9ec3ec82da3687c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276f555881ec24d01a9ec3ec82da3687c\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity. Thank you, Minister, for those words and for summing up what we agree is a very good bill, and Labour will be supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a simple idea: essentially, when too many people are driving at the same time, the system\u2014unsurprisingly\u2014clogs up and makes it worse for everybody. It\u2019s important to note, as well as the Minister\u2019s comments, that it\u2019s not a revenue grab\u2014unlike many changes, sometimes, in the transport arena\u2014but it is, as has been depicted, a really smart tool to fix what is a serious problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThe bill is about making our cities better and making our cities move faster. It\u2019s about tackling that very common frustration of sitting in traffic and not moving. It\u2019s not just a waste of people\u2019s individual time when that happens; it\u2019s a real pull on productivity. It has huge complications for all aspects of the economy, let alone aspects of everyday life. It establishes a framework for time of use charging, as has been discussed, allowing local councils with New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi to introduce congestion management schemes in those high traffic areas. I\u2019m sure we can all probably relate to sitting in a queue on some motorway and watching the lights change once or twice before anything ever moves, and knowing that we are losing time that we\u2019ll simply never get back. This bill does give us a way to tackle that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EIn terms of a little bit of background to further elucidate on the comments that the Minister has made, when we think about Auckland, congestion in our largest city is something like 35\u00A0percent more time in traffic is spent by people in Auckland than their counterparts spend in traffic in Sydney and Brisbane and places like that. So it\u2019s one of the worst in the OECD. It\u2019s definitely not a solution looking for a problem. As I said, that\u2019s productivity loss, that\u2019s lost time with families, that\u2019s lost opportunities to spend your leisure time differently. The international experience, as the Minister correctly pointed out, is that when this congestion charging has been introduced elsewhere in big cities where there\u2019s specific congestion, it has appeared to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EHowever, the proof of how good a policy this will be, as with any policy, is in the implementation. That\u2019s where things fall down, if they\u2019re going to, and whilst we\u2019re supporting this, we certainly will be keeping an eye to make sure it\u2019s well implemented. Realistically, all we need is a 5 to 10\u00A0percent drop in that peak traffic usage to actually make a significant change. That is something that we can certainly look forward to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EWith regards to fairness and accessibility, that was certainly a theme that came through the prior stages of this bill as it\u2019s progressed through the House, and it does matter, because fairness does matter. We have to make sure that in introducing a congestion charge, or a different system\u2014an alternative\u2014that there are actually viable alternatives for people to make those behavioural changes. It\u2019s OK for people that have relatively equal choices to make\u2014do they travel at this time? Could they travel a little bit later to avoid the traffic and avoid the congestion charge?\u2014but we do have to acknowledge that for lots of people, they simply don\u2019t have the luxury of necessarily being able to time their life around peak traffic, or they don\u2019t have the luxury of being able to take any other form of transport other than their personal vehicle. So we do have to ensure that the system is fair and that it\u2019s equitable, otherwise that public buy-in will erode, and that public buy-in\u2014that social licence\u2014will be incredibly important to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EMy colleague Tangi Utikere spoke at the committee of the whole House stage about consultation and fairness, and that it is going to be important that people understand what they\u2019re being asked to pay for, what alternatives exist, and that those, particularly with mobility challenges, are not left out. That was a point raised by the Hon Julie Anne Genter in so far as the amendments that she put forward, and it\u2019s a really, really important consideration. I take the Minister of Transport\u2019s point that he made\u2014quite correctly\u2014early on: that if the integrity of a system can be degraded really quickly, the more exceptions that you make, but exceptions are there for a reason, to be carved out when there are exceptional circumstances. So we were very disappointed that the mobility permit holders weren\u2019t\u2014that that amendment wasn\u2019t considered. We do urge the Government to reconsider that and to think about the overall integrity of the system, should it not\u2014well, should it affect people particularly adversely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really also important that revenue from the scheme goes back into better transport options, not just motorways or\u2014certainly not back into the Government\u2019s central coffers. As highlighted during the committee of the whole House stage, successful cities where they have introduced this scheme\u2014the ones that have been the most successful\u2014have used those initial congestion charges to expand bus services and reduce fares, therefore really making that alternative option; if we\u2019re looking for behavioural change, something that\u2019s more and more viable. We\u2019ll be watching closely to ensure that that pretty simple basic principle is applied to this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EWith regard to transparency and local leadership, public trust will be important here, and I think that the points that have been raised in previous readings and certainly in the committee of the whole House stage were really important. If we think of new section 6E requiring consultation before a scheme is submitted\u2014but consultation must mean more than just a survey buried in the junk mail or at the bottom of some website that people may or may not see. It\u2019s incredibly important that it be done really well. With regard to the potential flow-on effects, I think it goes beyond just basic traffic flow. Cities overseas, as we\u2019ve heard, are linking congestion charging to low-emission zones, tackling pollution, and improving public health. So there\u2019s an opportunity here\u2014if implemented correctly and implemented well\u2014and we have to wait and see how this Government tackles that, but if done well and if revenue comes in and can be channelled into, firstly, improving those alternatives through cheaper buses or more reliable buses, and then actually providing some public good, I think that\u2019s a real win-win for this scheme. Cleaner, faster, more efficient transport could be the outcome, if done well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003ELabour supports this bill, because, fundamentally, we have to; because, at some point, we\u2019ve got to change the way that we operate as a society. For too long, we\u2019ve been so used to one person in a car driving, roads being congested, and as the population grows and as our infrastructure\u2014our woeful history of infrastructure spend\u2014has not kept up with all of the alternatives to those more roads, we find ourselves in this situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EIn the committee of the whole House stage, there were a couple of amendments that I just want to briefly touch on. The Hon Chris Bishop\u2019s Amendment Paper 400: Labour did support efforts to tidy up and strengthen the bill by the host of things that were touched on in that Amendment Paper, and we supported these changes because, essentially, they did address some of their concerns around transparency and around accountability. But, as I alluded to earlier, I think it\u2019s a real shame that the Hon Julie Anne Genter\u2019s Amendment Paper 376\u2014we\u2019re disappointed that the total mobility users are not part of the exemption criteria. We do understand, again, that exemption criteria can degrade the integrity of a system, but that\u2019s what exemptions are for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EWe support the amendment which exempts vehicles registered to people who hold those disabled persons parking permits from having to pay time of use charges. That\u2019s not about saying there\u2019s an intrinsic fairness issue there; that\u2019s just simply saying that the fundamental conditions that allow for behaviour change aren\u2019t in play when someone doesn\u2019t have a legitimate alternative. You can\u2019t change a behaviour toward a legitimate alternative if those conditions aren\u2019t there or if those factors aren\u2019t the same. So we are disappointed in that, but, overall, we support this goal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022 data-id=\u0022b84779e6af4e4ac5978923012d8e333d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b84779e6af4e4ac5978923012d8e333d\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party has had in its transport policy a point about investigating congestion pricing for at least 15 years\u2014probably closer to 20\u2014so we do support this bill. Enabling local authorities to have tools to better manage their transport systems and their streets is the right thing to do. This actually starts to take a paradigm shift approach to how we define and manage our transport problems. We now have decades and decades of research that shows that expanding lane capacity\u2014that\u2019s a technical term for adding more car lanes within cities\u2014does not reduce congestion. It never has, and it never will. Adding car lanes will actually result in more congestion and more car trips within five to 10 years of building those roads, and that\u2019s why urban highway projects are not the best use of money to solve the problem if your goal is reducing congestion, improving travel times, and reducing transport costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EIt seems like many members on the Government benches don\u2019t really grasp this concept, so I\u2019ll take this opportunity to say that we can\u2019t build our way out of congestion. Bringing in congestion pricing or enabling more direct pricing, whether that\u2019s through time of use charges or changes to road-user charges, will result in a shift in demand away from private car trips to other modes of transport, hence why the Green Party has always said that we need to invest better in more capacity for public transport, for rail and coastal shipping, and for active transport modes. These are all things that absolutely have to happen, and, if we\u2019re going to bring in congestion pricing\u2014or if local authorities are going to be enabled to do that\u2014we need to have a shift in transport investments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThe current Government\u2019s transport investments over the next 10 years make zero sense. They\u2019re just incredibly expensive, they don\u2019t solve the actual problems, and, when we bring in demand management tools like time of use pricing, there will be even more demand for the alternatives, and even less demand for the roads. I really hope that the Government is going to take on board the fact that once this legislation is passed, every single investment case for every single urban or urban fringe highway must include congestion pricing as a base case in the transport modelling. If we did that, we would see that we don\u2019t need to spend $3.8\u00A0billion on two kilometres of one extra car lane in each direction in the centre of Wellington. That makes no sense. We should be investing in much better, more frequent public transport and lower public transport prices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThe Greens support the bill, but there are three big missed opportunities with it. The first one is local autonomy. Basically, the vast majority of trips are local trips. Whether they\u2019re on State highways, whether they\u2019re on local roads, whether they\u2019re on public transport, the vast majority of peak hour trips are local trips. If we want decisions to be made well and efficiently, we need to give the funding and the decisions to the local authorities, and we do need to have the right setup for that. Maybe we need some more regional transport authorities. This bill really puts way too much control in central government\u2019s hands. It really should be more for local authorities to be controlling the scheme boards, how the scheme is operating, and where the revenue is going. We raised that in the Transport and Infrastructure Committee; it\u2019s in our differing view, and we put Amendment Papers to that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EIn places around Christchurch or around Wellington, you could have a whole lot of suburban or fringe territorial local authorities joining a scheme board and then outvoting the local authority who are actually the managers of where the scheme is going to be. Imagine we\u2019re bringing in congestion pricing in Wellington city or in Christchurch city, and we\u2019ve got a whole lot of outlying territorial authorities and the New Zealand Transport Authority who can outvote the local authority on the design of the scheme and the use of the revenue. That doesn\u2019t make sense; that\u2019s a missed opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThe second big missed opportunity is around the low-emission zones and addressing air pollution. I was the only one who was on the committee last term who heard the inquiry into a congestion question or Auckland congestion pricing, and we heard from a lot of experts from European cities and other cities that have brought in congestion pricing, and they said that low-emission zones are big. It makes sense, if you\u2019re enabling legislation for congestion pricing or time of use pricing, to also enable local authorities to bring in low-emission zones, which is a different type of tool. It\u2019s similar to congestion pricing, but, actually, it\u2019s addressing an even bigger productivity challenge, which is air pollution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EWe aren\u2019t even really measuring the true cost of air pollution from vehicles in Aotearoa, but the Health and Air Pollution in New Zealand report\u2014the most recent one\u2014was absolutely shocking. It says that the cost of harmful air pollution from vehicles\u2014well, harmful air pollution generally\u2014costs $10\u00A0billion a year, and the majority of that is actually from vehicles. A lot of those aren\u2019t old vehicles\u2014they\u2019re brand-new diesel vehicles. Diesel has turned out to be far worse for human health than people realised, and that\u2019s why European cities have been actively managing it and reducing diesel particulate in their city centres for the last 15 years. A recent OECD research report shows that 30\u00A0percent of all the productivity growth in European cities from 2010 to 2019 was due to improvements in air quality. A big part of that is low-emission zones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EAnother big part of it is making cycling, walking, and public transport the priority for urban areas, which also makes sense from a transport cost perspective, from a congestion perspective, and from an air quality perspective. If the Government\u2019s goal is productivity, they should be thinking about air pollution and giving councils the tools to manage air pollution from private motor vehicles, because that is a big hidden cost. It causes tens of thousands of children to have asthma\u2014to be hospitalised with asthma\u2014and far more premature deaths than we even have through road crashes, which this Government is, of course, absolutely keen on increasing with their absolutely evidence-free approach to speed limits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EFinally, the third thing with this bill that is a missed opportunity is the earlier point that I raised about how it changes the investment priorities. The Government policy statement on transport funding needs to be revised, and we need to make sure\u2014we proposed an amendment at the select committee stage\u2014that we limit what the revenue can be spent on. It needs to be spent on providing for the alternatives. Everybody knows that New Zealand has underinvested in public and active transport for decades. This isn\u2019t a result of people\u2019s choices\u2014people have not chosen to own and use cars at a higher rate than pretty much any other country in the OECD\u2014it is the result of previous Governments\u2019 decisions. Local government and central government, over decades, have made it difficult, impossible, impractical, and expensive to do anything else, and that costs New Zealanders tens of billions of dollars a year. That is a major cost of living issue. After rent and food, transport is the largest expense for most households. Households who own one car are having to spend thousands of dollars a year owning that car, and that doesn\u2019t even take into account the full costs of car parking, etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThe costs of high car ownership are far more than congestion; congestion is probably one of the smaller costs associated with our transportation system. If we look at all the cities in the world that have embraced congestion pricing early\u2014and there were only about five of them until recently: Stockholm, Singapore, the City of London, Gothenburg, and Milan\u2014all of those cities had higher levels of residential and employment density in their cities. They had much lower levels of car ownership, much higher levels of public transportation services, and better provision for walking and cycling. They also had higher prices for car parking, so the cost of car ownership was already more direct in those places. Then they brought in congestion pricing. Of course, that\u2019s been extended to New York City, but I would say that those criteria also apply to New York City.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bdb4120af127433fb9e705b5f479e453\u0022\u003EThe answer is pretty simple; it\u2019s going to become very clear. As the Minister said, he embraces congestion pricing, and he thinks it\u2019s the right thing to do. Does he understand\u2014does the Government understand\u2014what New Zealanders need their Government to do as a response to making the cost of using a car at peak time more direct? The answer is Government investment priorities need to change. Right now, we are barely investing in, or planning for, any improvements to public transport right across the country. The Government is spending not one cent on the critical public transport spine along the quays in Wellington. The big project that they\u2019re bragging about is one that I campaigned on for four years\u2014the City Rail Link\u2014before the then National Government agreed to pay for it, and there\u2019s almost no planning for serious capacity improvements for public transport outside of a few busways. The Government needs to step up and realise that New Zealanders are crying out for passenger transport services. We need to invest in those, and that helps the roads, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022 data-id=\u00222af6756df08246d3ab44e644abb852e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222af6756df08246d3ab44e644abb852e5\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. ACT supports the Land Transport Management (Time of Use Charging) Amendment Bill because it is a smarter way of dealing with congestion. It sends a price signal and creates an incentive for motorists traveling at peak times, and I\u2019ve been one of them. As a civil engineer and working as a contractor, I\u2019ve spent hours and hours and hours of my life stuck in traffic on Auckland\u2019s motorways and arterial routes, cursing the people who failed to provide the capacity for our city to grow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s true that congestion charging can influence people to choose to travel at a different time, but for the 60, 70, 80 percent of New Zealanders who do now and always will rely on private transport, it\u2019s not necessarily going to help them unless they have alternatives. So, look, congestion charging is important; it\u2019s just one more funding tool in the funding toolbox. This Government will also be introducing Infrastructure Funding and Financing Act amendments\u2014we\u2019ve talked about that previously\u2014so we can actually start to increase revenues from land that benefits from large-scale infrastructure and development projects. We\u2019re moving to road-user charges so that Kiwis, no matter what type of vehicle they drive, pay the full cost of using the roads. But it doesn\u2019t change the fact that growing cities, growing populations, people who are more mobile, need extra capacity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s going to be a test. The honourable member Julie Anne Genter said that this Government does face a test. Well, we will see it. If you raise a congestion charge to a certain amount and you collect the money but the congestion doesn\u2019t change, what that tells you is that even despite providing public transport services\u2014and, maybe, these bike lanes, which, you know, carry a very small amount of people at great cost\u2014maybe what that signals is that you then have to provide the additional capacity, the additional lanes. Auckland is a city that\u2019s going to grow from about 1.3 or 1.4\u00A0million to 2, maybe 2.5 million people between now and 2050, and simply assuming the next million people who come will only ever catch a bus is the kind of fantasy, unicorn-chasing thinking we hear from the Green Party. It\u2019s not real; it\u2019s not true. That\u2019s why congestion charging is one very small part of the way to solve this problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EACT does support this bill, and we\u2019re also very keen to let people who have been concerned about their privacy know that this bill actually contains protections for their data. For the ACT Party, privacy is not up for negotiation. Clause 65ZF of this bill deals directly with privacy, and it\u2019s one of the most important parts of the whole framework, because people using a network and paying a congestion charge want to make sure that any information collected under a time of use scheme is handled responsibly, securely, and only used for its intended purpose. Under this clause, personal information can only be kept for as long as it\u2019s needed to calculate and collect the charge\u2014no longer. That\u2019s vital; it means that this information won\u2019t become a backdoor for Government to track where people drive or how they travel. Now, I know some members of the Green Party would love to know where people drive and how they travel, so then they can work out how to change their behaviour. But I trust Kiwis to respond to price signals like congestion charging, and also respond to other incentives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221eac64d070f64ab4b93bc75acf08fcd9\u0022\u003EThe clause will also require a clear and transparent privacy policy. For each scheme, it puts limits on agencies so they can\u2019t use the information for anything beyond the operation of the time of use system itself. This charging system could have easily gone the wrong way and became a mechanism for State surveillance. ACT will not accept that. This bill includes clear, practical limits that keep it focused on the roads and on reducing congestion and providing incentives for Kiwis to travel at different times. ACT supports this bill because it represents modern, practical reform done the right way. It\u2019s another example of this Government fixing what matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022 data-id=\u00228f65b24dfdfb463485c71e27ac1b2b30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f65b24dfdfb463485c71e27ac1b2b30\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, I\u2019m delighted to rise on behalf of New Zealand First, and delighted to speak on this time of use bill, and that time of use changing will soon become available as another tool in the transport tool kit. It\u2019s something that local government\u2014in particular in our biggest city, Auckland, but also in the Wellington region\u2014has been asking for, for several years, and saying, \u201CCan we have some empowering legislation that allows us to look at time of use or congestion charging schemes?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EAs a former councillor in the Wellington City Council, I was charged often with, and quite enthusiastically, advocated for that both to the Hon Phil Twyford when he was Minister of Transport, and Urban Development, and also to the inquiry which was headed by Greg O\u2019Connor in the last Parliament\u2019s Transport and Infrastructure Committee where we, as a Wellington City Council and we as a Wellington region, were advocating for this very tool. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really nice, now, to be in a position of having been able to shepherd this bill through the select committee process as the chair of that committee and to make some good improvements to that bill. I did want to start by saying thank you to all the members of the committee, to our great committee clerks, to all the officials who helped us, to all the submitters, and also to the Minister of Transport. I\u2019m going to come back to the Minister later on because there was a particular role which I think is really, really important that he played in this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003ETime of use charging, really, is all about managing or balancing supply and demand. It\u2019s what you potentially impose; the price goes up when supply is overwhelmed by demand at those peak times. While we\u2019re not used to it in the road transport situation, we are in many other situations. Think about public transport pricing: peak, off peak; those prices are different. Think about energy prices, think about aviation, think about ferries, think about accommodation; all of those we have a charge which is greater at times of higher demand than it is at lower demand periods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe Infrastructure Commission has encouraged greater use across the board of charges to modify behaviour so that we take some of that pressure that the Hon Julie Anne Genter was talking about off our infrastructure system. Time of use charging in the transport area is about putting a charge in place so that people either change the time of travel or the way in which they travel, the mode in which they travel. It sometimes only takes a small change in traffic volume to make all the difference to the speed in which you travel and the travel time that it takes to get from A to B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EIt also potentially\u2014and I guess this reflects one of the things that Julie Anne Genter was talking about\u2014allows you to either delay or even not to do some major infrastructural projects. I think she\u2019s quite right that every one of those business cases now should really be considering what would happen to that business case if you put in place a time of use charge. Does it still hold water? Is it still something you should do or maybe it\u2019s something you can do later or maybe it\u2019s something you don\u2019t need to do at all. Those are the things which we should be thinking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EShe also raised\u2014it was interesting\u2014the old induced demand. If you build some more lanes, they\u2019ll automatically fill up over a period of time just because you built the lanes. Well, yeah, but do think about sometimes the population has grown very, very significantly, and those people, as Simon Court said, might not all travel on a bus; they might also put their cars on that road. There might also be different changes in land use which are driven by\u2014so, for example, in the Wellington region, you think about the roads which have been built up towards the K\u0101piti Coast. Funnily enough, as soon as those roads were announced, what did the real estate agents start saying? \u201CWell, there\u2019ll be more development up there.\u201D Of course there\u2019s going to be more development up there; that is induced demand. But it\u2019s not just because you built the road; it\u2019s because people decided to go and live there\u2014more people decided to go and live there. That is where that demand is coming from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan raised concerns that some people cannot change their time or their mode of travel, and that\u2019s absolutely true, but they will get a benefit from that. That\u2019s one of the answers we have, particularly to the freight sector: you do get a benefit because you\u2019re able to travel to where you want to get to much quicker. She said that the cost of congestion was one of the smaller costs in the transport system. The estimate in Auckland alone is $2.6 billion in time lost in traffic congestion every year; that is not a small cost to the system, not a small cost to us as a community, and not a small cost to productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe Transport and Infrastructure Committee listened carefully to submissions, we asked questions; I think we engaged authentically and that is what we should always be doing, whether it is in select committees or any form of Government or local government, and also challenging submitters. All of those things are really vital to trust and confidence in process. The Transport and Infrastructure Committee made several amendments and one of the things I did want to say\u2014I go back to the Minister of Transport\u2014we did get pushed back from the Minister\u2019s office on three amendments, but we pushed back again and said, \u201CActually, we think that those amendments really hold merit.\u201D We had some conversations and ultimately the Minister said, \u201CActually, I agree with you and I\u2019m going to accept those amendments.\u201D I think that is the select committee process at its best; it is not just automatically going along with what the executive says, but it\u2019s saying let\u2019s think about those things, let\u2019s push back, let\u2019s come to the right answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting to reflect that when we are considering the issue of a four-year term, the bill\u2014which is still, I think, somewhere in the system, talks about the role of select committees in that process and that being one of the checks and balances on the system and on the executive. So I think that is something that we should be thinking about: what do we expect from our select committees in terms of the way in which they look at, consider, and report back legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EQuickly, on those three changes, one of those was around governance and we put in place several safeguards for local government, for the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA), and for the community. The particular one for local government was that local government was quite adamant that if NZTA was given the dominant role\u2014was given the chairing, effectively, of the scheme boards which we set up\u2014that they weren\u2019t going to have a bar of it, and that would defeat the whole purpose. So what we\u2019ve done is we\u2019ve listened to that very carefully and we\u2019ve recommended that there is an independent chair of that process to balance NZTA and the councils, and that is something we should push with the Minister, and the Minister said, \u201CUltimately, yes, I agree with that.\u201D So that was really, really good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe second one was exclusions. Originally, the bill as introduced only had emergency vehicles being excluded. The ACT Party representative decided that even those shouldn\u2019t be excluded, but we figured that those had to get to where they had to get to and the ambulance officers aren\u2019t going to get out and walk with their equipment, or the fire engine crew aren\u2019t going to be able to walk their hose from A to B. So that exclusion stayed, but we did include the exclusion for public transport\u2014for scheduled public transport\u2014and for Ministry of Education rural buses. The reason for that simply is we want\u2014part of this is changing the time you travel, part of it is changing the mode you travel. That was about changing the mode you travel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe third one which we pushed was the use of surplus funds, and hopefully there are some surplus funds because there is a big, big deficit in the transport budget\u2014over decades, probably\u2014and we need to be able to address that over time. We said there needs to be a closer nexus between where the money comes from and where the money is used; not just in the wider region, but in the area close to the area where the congestion is, to help deal with that congestion. That\u2019s about making the ideas of these schemes palatable and understandable to the communities. The Minister, again, accepted that, after discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe legislation does not implement any time of use charges, but what it does do is create the framework so that councils and NZTA can go and engage with their communities and implement those, working together. I think it\u2019s great that we\u2019ve got to this point. Again, I thank everybody for the hard work that\u2019s gone into this and I commend this bill to the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022 data-id=\u0022477f42101ff545fc93c04fcd0c9a4916\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022477f42101ff545fc93c04fcd0c9a4916\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I rise to support this bill, and it\u2019s a pleasure to speak after the man who was the chair of the Transport and Urban Development Committee at Wellington City Council. I know we jointly signed off a number of submissions supporting time of use, but remember that transport and urban development should go hand in hand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003EThere are a number of things that I want to say, despite the Green Party\u2014and I listened to Julie Anne eloquently putting our position. I want to say that this is a good step forward, but it\u2019s lacking some systems thinking. For example, it promotes people being able to choose a different transport mode if it\u2019s available, but it\u2019s a bit like the old saying\u2014and some of you may be old enough to remember this\u2014\u201CMother, mother, may I swim?\u201D \u201CYes, my darling daughter, but don\u2019t go near the water.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a bit like that: \u201CChoose another transport mode, but we won\u2019t fund walking. We won\u2019t fund cycling. We will put up the prices of public transport, but, oh, time of use will encourage people to use different transport modes.\u201D You actually have to do both. You have to do time of use and you have to invest in transport modes that are less emitting and less congesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003ETalking about urban development, I take the point from Mr Court, who is not listening at all at the moment, which is sort of typical of his approach to evidence, I would suggest. There may be population growth, but where is it going to go? Is it going to go in the inner cities? Only yesterday, Minister Bishop approved less residential intensification in Christchurch. He said, \u201CLet them off the hook.\u201D I mean, Christchurch doesn\u2019t have the benefits of a hilly city that has given us topographical limitations, that have promoted us as being the highest proportion of people who walk to work because (a) it\u2019s downhill to walk to work and (b) people live close to their work, whereas if you live on the outskirts of Auckland or the outskirts of Christchurch, it\u2019s very difficult to walk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003EI would also suggest that this is partly during the hours\u2014and I\u2019m glad that it\u2019s up to the local scheme boards to determine questions like the hours and where the boundaries might be. Some of that congestion will be caused by parents or caregivers dropping off children to school and the amazing cognitive dissonance between saying, \u201CYes, we want to reduce congestion, but we\u2019re not going to fund safe routes to schools. We\u2019re going to allow for there to be a tiny period in the day with lower speed limits around schools, but we\u2019re not actually going to do anything to help children walk or cycle to school.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003EFrankly, putting those time limits on lower speed limits in areas around schools is like saying that you\u2019ve got a curfew for kids; that, OK, if they\u2019re going to school, if they\u2019ve been dropped off by their parent on one side of the road, they\u2019re going across a crossing, it\u2019s a lower speed for that moment, but if they\u2019re going back home from after-school sports or after-school drama or Duke of Edinburgh club or all of the different things that kids do, \u201COh, it doesn\u2019t apply then, because, my gosh, we\u2019ve got to let the cars through at 50 kilometres an hour.\u201D, which is not safe for people on foot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003EThe other interesting thing is how Government parties talk about localism and yet all of those councils that consulted on mainly lower speed limits consulted with their communities. If they hadn\u2019t done it exactly ABC for six weeks, that was reversed, and at a huge cost to councils and communities. So stick with it, stay local, have your development and population growth in the centre of cities, and now we can do the time of use congestion charge. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebc80a5a4f924fa2a5363a95306c7168\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebc80a5a4f924fa2a5363a95306c7168\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E This is a good day for this Parliament, that we come together and support legislation unanimously. You wouldn\u2019t think that from the previous speaker\u2019s speech. But it is unanimous because we recognise that this bill is a game-changer. It\u2019s a game-changer for productivity on our major roads, for reducing congestion, and for investment in public transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003EThis bill is the right thing to do. As I said, it\u2019s got the unanimous support from our Parliament. It follows other successful schemes implemented overseas and it makes good economic sense to put a price on congestion. Now, we know, as the Minister said, that this bill is going to have a bumpy road through to implementation, and we\u2019re saying let\u2019s stick with it so that the public can see the benefit for themselves of lower congestion, increased investment on public transport, and certainty for how long it takes you to get across Auckland, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221b25fe0aaf4a441c89618f1fa196cd1e\u0022\u003EI wish to thank the Minister for entertaining the important amendments that the select committee wished for inclusion as part of this bill. I also wish to acknowledge our bipartisan Transport and Infrastructure Committee, led by Andy Foster. Great committee and leading, really, some real tough challenges. This is an important tool in the tool box, and I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022 data-id=\u002284b7c78d090346db9c34b785293ef018\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284b7c78d090346db9c34b785293ef018\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to be able to rise today to speak in this third reading of the time of use charging bill. As I\u2019ve said before, Labour supports this bill. I do, too. As a resident of T\u0101maki Makaurau Auckland, and on the North Shore, I support its intention to decongest our city, get our transport networks flowing, and allow Aucklanders to get from A to B more quickly and efficiently. This legislation has been, in fact, a long time coming. Work began under Labour in 2021 when we opened an inquiry on addressing the congestion challenges in our cities. It was a robust and thorough consultation, as any legislation with such a large impact should have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EBut we know the statistics: Kiwis spend up to 35 percent more time commuting across our cities then our Australian counterparts do. It leads to lost productivity, a reduced quality of life, and greater frustration for us all. The estimations for Auckland were that congestion would cost us $2.6\u00A0billion a year by 2026 if we did not act. There was simply too much time, too much productivity, and too much money to be lost to congestion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EI do want to take this opportunity to talk to the impact this will have on the community where I live in Northcote. I\u2019ve said before that the reality of this legislation is that it will halve congestion, and that for people in our community it will mean the dreaded morning rush down Onewa Road will look more like what we experience during the school holidays. It\u2019s a stark difference we all relish during those school holiday commutes, and soon we will get this experience on every day. This is a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EHowever, I do acknowledge too that this is another cost for our community, one that they are faced with during a time when there are many cost of living pressures biting at their heels. If we look at the six charging options presented by Auckland Council, I note that five of them will directly impact our community who travel over the Harbour Bridge; all through the isthmus to get to and from work each day. So I appreciate the anticipation from our community about what this will mean, money-wise, for them going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EAuckland Transport\u2019s 2020 modelling suggested that for light vehicles this would cost up to $3.50 per trip at peak times. Of course, more work now needs to be done to update these figures. It is important that our community is informed and consulted on what this will look like for them. To date, there hasn\u2019t been a lot of information provided by Government MPs to the North Shore, and it is important that not only do they get to have their say but also our local board in Kaip\u0101tiki does too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EAs you can imagine, with congestion charging coming, there is a lot of discontent and concerns coming directly from our community that currently remains unresponded to. Congestion charging is not a solution in and of itself. The charge is a demand management tool that requires alternatives to motivate people to change the way that they move around the city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EThe 2023 census showed 84 percent of Aucklanders use private or company vehicles to get to work. That is why it was always the vision and intention of the previous Government to roll out congestion charging alongside the alternative measures we were working on. Investments in reliable and available public transport, active walking and cycling measures, and affordable fees that encourage behaviour change and an uptake in buses, in rail, and in ferries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003ECongestion charging cannot be left as a revenue-gathering measure alone. Under this Government, they have cut the regional fuel tax, leaving a $1.2 billion hole in transport infrastructure in Auckland. The result of this is that Aucklanders are paying more to use our public transport system, whether that is individually or through their rates. Half-price fees and free for under-12s made a significant difference in the affordability of using public transport to get around our largest city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EMayor Wayne Brown and Auckland Council have also made it clear that under the National Government\u2019s national land transport plan, Auckland\u2019s public transport network has been cut. Thirty-nine percent less funding for bus projects, 37 percent less for ferry projects, 35 percent less for cycleway projects, and 36 percent less for road safety. These are all things that we need to be investing in if we want this legislation to be successful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EThe North Shore has one of the most progressive transport systems in this country, thanks to the Northern Busway, which was an innovation established more than 50 years ago. While we support congestion charging in principle today, affordability and reliability need to remain the priority for Aucklanders to be able to take public transport to get them to and from work. Currently, the Government is not investing enough in public transport and alternative modes to ensure that this legislation will be successful. That, of course, is my main concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EThis has been an ongoing conversation for a long time and that is why I\u2019m happy for this legislation to be before the House today. But it does worry me, the lack of information locally that has been provided, or not provided, by MPs that represent our area. I wonder\u2014I wonder why they haven\u2019t spoken up on this issue. Why have they not put it out to the community? Why have they not taken a leadership role to educate the community on the benefits of congestion charging as a tool, and the opportunities and benefits that it presents to our community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EI think I know the reason for that. It might be unpopular, but it\u2019s the right thing to do. But it also holds Government members accountable for the cuts that they\u2019ve made to our public transport system. It is more expensive than ever to catch the bus in Northcote into the city, where the majority of people use the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EThis goes through today. Further consultation will be up. But I hope that Government MPs\u2014and there\u2019s seven of them across the North Shore, seven in total\u2014actually front up, hold a public meeting on the North Shore, take the responsibility to educate our community about this tool, and ensure that they do the right thing in putting the information out there. So, without further ado, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc849bed777c4aa9a95cd6cd2a71cd17\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267a6fd863caa463faea9cf12dae53514\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Carlos Cheung. It\u2019s Mr Speaker, because I\u2019m in the big chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022 data-id=\u0022563bec34025a4437ae992d2768a98122\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022563bec34025a4437ae992d2768a98122\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf76133235014ba888554fbcba029a52\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: There you go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222816f3856f074398a1821e5da6464f42\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is doing the right thing. The intent of this bill is very clear: to better use a transport network and to ease congestion. This is a goal we can all support. However, as the MP for Mt Roskill, I want to urge Auckland Council to treat this as an opportunity to deliver real solutions, not as a tool to punish drivers. Aucklanders, including people in Mt Roskill, already contend with a long travelling time, unreliable public transport, and a rising living cost. Any charging scheme that is set up must not\u2014let me repeat: must not\u2014become another burden on hardworking families or, worse, lead to further congestion, as we have seen in the past, with poorly designed T2 and T3 transit lanes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003EThis is a chance to get it right\u2014for Auckland Council and for Auckland Transport to pair smartly, to communicate clearly, and to ensure that Aucklanders experience travel that is genuinely smoother, fair, and more efficient. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022019d00362b1f46e39508848331b3fd41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022019d00362b1f46e39508848331b3fd41\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise, like my colleagues, to speak in support of this bill. I\u2019ve been a resident of Auckland for 30 years, so I am very familiar with some of the congestion issues that our beautiful but very big city has. I do think that this is a positive step that\u2019s being taken in terms of changing behaviours, but as my colleagues have said, it can\u2019t be the only step. It must be one of many that supports people to take public transport and that informs people about the fact that these changes are going to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI wanted to address some of the privacy issues that were discussed at select committee when the bill went through that process, and I do commend the committee for making some changes in this respect. The committee made some very helpful changes in response to a number of submissions, including inserting new paragraph (fa) into new section 65Z(2) to require that the scheme impact assessment must set out potential impacts on privacy, to include that there must be privacy policies in place as well, and to ensure that there\u2019s consultation with the Privacy Commissioner\u2014all good things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EHowever, my view is that this is one of those bills where we do need to ensure we\u2019re actively monitoring how privacy requirements are playing out. It is because, as with a number of different bills that travel through the House, they are still subject to the privacy principles which sit separately. In this case, as in those other cases, the police, for example, could bypass the requirements in this bill due to information privacy principle 11(1)(e), which says that \u201Cthe disclosure of information is necessary\u2014(i) to avoid prejudice to the maintenance of the law\u201D. So, in essence, there is an out clause to still allow the disclosure of that information even if privacy and interests are protected within the bill itself. This is something that I do think we need to actively monitor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe Law Society also made some useful suggestions, which in my view should be periodically reviewed as we see how the bill impacts people\u2019s lives. They talked about the fact that the current tolling provisions were deemed to be sufficient because people had another option, whereas with this framework they simply won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003ENow, you have countries like the US where they have these sorts of user charges but they also offer lanes and ways through the city where they\u2019re not subject to those user charges. One might say that\u2019s a positive and that it retains that option of choice, but what they\u2019ve found in the US in those circumstances is that there are arguments that it creates layers of privilege and access as well. So these are certainly not easy issues to grapple with. However, I do think that we must ensure that we keep a keen eye on the privacy interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe Law Society also made the point that there\u2019s power within the current scheme for specifics within the scheme to be changed, and that perhaps there should be explicit consideration of privacy policies when changes are made. That\u2019s not a current requirement that those policies be updated. So again, that may be something that we want to look at down the track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EFrom here on in, I do think there are still questions about implementation, and Shanan Halbert has made the point that there hasn\u2019t been sufficient socialising of this thus far, so there is absolutely a need to bring the public on board. We\u2019ve seen how in Edinburgh there was a failure to do this and a rejection by the public of moves towards a system like this. We\u2019ve seen operational issues in Germany, where they underestimated the technology that would be needed to effectively run this kind of system, and we\u2019ve seen the system where, in London, people did stop using their cars but then opted for taxis, which then maintained the congestion that the city had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003ESo the need for active review is absolutely necessary. But, again, for now, this is a good bill as part of a broader scheme of changes that we would like to see, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022 data-id=\u002266a1c95a8e564b418dbe1a4d696fa57b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266a1c95a8e564b418dbe1a4d696fa57b\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E Te mutunga k\u0113 mai o te ohorere! I whakaae kotahi. He rite t\u0113nei ki te pire whakataunga, ne? Kua horahoratia ng\u0101 taipitopito o te pire nei e te mema o mua, n\u0101 reira ko t\u014Dku harikoa kia tuku i te pire nei ki te Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002245a91c82858d44fda0df4854f18cb4a9\u0022\u003E[Mr Speaker, I am so surprised! We are all agreed. This is like a settlement bill, isn\u2019t it? The details of this bill have been laid out by the previous member, therefore it is my pleasure to commend this bill to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u002209191bfe1fdc4d92b4f25d7f53610615\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209191bfe1fdc4d92b4f25d7f53610615\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m very happy to be making a contribution on this third and final reading of the Land Transport Management (Time of Use Charging) Amendment Bill. The reform that this bill sets up the framework for is, in my view, one of the most important reforms that we can make as a country to kind of modernise our legislative and policy framework to support the growth and development of our towns and cities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThis and its policy cousin\u2014the shift to an electronic time of use charging system for our entire transport system to replace the old road-user charge and the petrol excise; the chief sources of funding for our whole transport system\u2014will make very, very important system changes for us. When you put them alongside some of the other reforms that have been adopted in recent years or are in the pipeline, like the whole reform of our zoning system to enable urban intensification, actually, it\u2019s remarkable and good that both the zoning reforms and this reform to put in place time of use charging are supported across the House, and we have cross-party consensus in the Parliament for two of the most critically important reforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EOthers that I would put in the same category in terms of really important modernisation are the elimination of mandatory parking minimums, which was contained in the National Policy Statement on Urban Development, and the ongoing quest for new funding and financing streams for the infrastructure that enables urban growth. Both transport networks and the pipes that carry water and waste water\u2014these are the system reforms that will allow our cities to grow. They have been put together because our policy framework has been so unfit for purpose and so out of date that it has acted as a terrible roadblock that has stopped the market responding to demand\u2014that is, we just haven\u2019t been building the homes and the urban infrastructure that our growing population has needed\u2014and that is one of the things that\u2019s at the root of the housing crisis that has bedevilled New Zealand for the best part of 20 years now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s one additional reform that\u2019s critically important if this one is to succeed, and it is that we need more investment in public transport, in rapid transit, and in walking and cycling. If you want people to change their behaviour at those critical peak congestion times\u2014that is, in the morning and the afternoon peaks; that\u2019s what this reform is all about\u2014it\u2019s about smoothing off those peaks to allow a more efficient use of the transport network. If you want people to make those decisions not to clog up, in my patch, the Northwestern Motorway, then you have to give them proper alternatives. You\u2019ve got to allow people to use other ways to get where they need to go, so we need more investment in the ferries, we need more modernisation and more efficiency in our rail system in Auckland, and we need more high-frequency, comfortable, convenient buses. That\u2019s what will enable people to make the choices. If we don\u2019t make that complimentary investment alongside time of use charging, we won\u2019t get the returns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ESome people, to avoid spending five bucks to use the motorway to get into the city or to go out south on a busy afternoon in Auckland, will choose to delay their journey or do it at another time, but many, many people cannot do that, and so they have no choice. Because of the dictates of their employment, they have to travel at a certain time, and so we must give them better choices, and that means walking and cycling, trains, buses, and ferries, otherwise this won\u2019t work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThe second point I wanted to make is that this is critically important, because all of the international evidence is that with cities of scale that are growing, congestion always, always comes. You cannot build your way out of urban congestion in large growing cities, and the reason is induced demand. If most people rely on the private car to get where they\u2019re going and you build more roads and more motorways, you increase the carrying capacity of the urban transport network; people will simply buy more cars and use the roads more. You might add an extra lane to the motorway, as we have done time and time again in Auckland, and in no time at all, those extra lanes just fill up with cars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s called induced demand, and the members on the National Party benches would benefit, I think, from doing a bit of reading on induced demand, because their fetish\u2014the cult that they have on that side of the House for the private car as a solution to every transport problem is one of the biggest issues we\u2019ve got in developing good transport policy in this country. So please do some reading up on induced demand because it will change your perspective on how we modernise our transport system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThe next thing I wanted to say\u2014and other colleagues have referred to this\u2014is that one of the really challenging parts of this framework that we\u2019re putting in place with this bill is that there are real equity, real social justice fish hooks in here. Pricing to ration the use of the roading network\u2014let\u2019s use Auckland\u2019s motorway network as an example\u2014is very likely to be extremely efficient. Pricing works as a rationing mechanism, but it\u2019s very, very tough on the people who can afford it least, and so we have to take that seriously, and it\u2019s up to Auckland Transport and Auckland Council to really apply themselves to this problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EIf you spend 2\u00BD hours on the road every day driving to and from work\u2014and in West Auckland, where I\u2019m from, more people have to drive every day to get to and from work than any other part of the city because the jobs and the education opportunities are, by and large, in other parts of the city. So if you have to spend all that time on the motorway every day\u2014and for some people it does amount to two hours or 2\u00BD hours\u2014that\u2019s less time that you can spend working and earning money to feed your family, spending time with your family, or spending time doing things like getting an education or starting a business. That is a form of transport poverty that affects large areas of our city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EWe have to invest in the public transport choices and walking and cycling choices that will give those communities real options. It is distressing at this time, when the country is in a cost of living crisis, when there is more than 5 percent unemployment, that this Government has chosen to slash by a third the expenditure on public transport and road safety and cycleways. It cuts completely against the grain and shows no common sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EI want to just briefly mention a part of the electorate that I represent in West Auckland, Te Atat\u016B and Henderson. It is entirely dependent on State Highway 16, the Northwestern Motorway, for connection to the rest of the city. We\u2019re talking about 100,000 people in Henderson and Te Atat\u016B, and 15 years ago, it was a transport crisis. The congestion on the Northwestern Motorway spilled back on to the arterials like Te Atatu Road and Lincoln Road. State Highway 16 was, basically, a parking lot, and yet in the 10 to 15 years since, we now have a form of rapid transit - lite on the Northwestern Motorway, which I\u2019m very happy to say I played a part in getting the funding for. We now have a high-frequency bus network serving our communities, with buses going every 10 minutes, seven days a week. We have much better cycling infrastructure and the promise of Te Whau pathway/cycleway connecting New Lynn to Te Atat\u016B. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve made enormous progress\u2014we actually have. The public transport system is much, much better now and congestion is no worse than it was 15 years ago. You can make a difference with these things, and it\u2019s not by building more motorway capacity and more roads. It\u2019s by investing in public transport infrastructure, and that\u2019s what this Government needs to do to make this time of use policy work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022 data-id=\u00221b8b5f47570c4e0ca16ac64119f35d5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b8b5f47570c4e0ca16ac64119f35d5f\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m very pleased to be invited to make the final speech in this third and final reading of the Land Transport Management (Time of Use Charging) Amendment Bill. Let me just take you back. This has been 25 years in the making, and I was working in the Auckland mayor\u2019s office at the time when the Land Transport Management Act 2003 came through. That was, in theory, about enabling user-pays funding, but it didn\u2019t work\u2014it didn\u2019t work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003ESteven Joyce in 2011 amended the Act, which of course removed the barriers to tolling and public-private partnerships, and now, the third leg of the treble, we\u2019re amending the bill again with the time of use charging. As has been articulated, 25 years ago it was a billion dollars in wasted time and wasted energy for Aucklanders every year; now it\u2019s projected to be $2.5 billion. I congratulate the Minister of Transport, Chris Bishop, on putting this bill together\u201425 years in the making\u2014and getting unanimous support across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b2f5c45d42a433893ae6677b9a7307d\u0022\u003EAucklanders will soon experience school holiday - like traffic\u2014school holiday - like traffic. It might be a little bit bumpy to start with as far as the small cost involved, but that will well and truly be outweighed by the savings in time and energy. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022603\u0022 data-id=\u0022778381ee65c34ffe9806669d24b938f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022778381ee65c34ffe9806669d24b938f2\u0022\u003EMIKE DAVIDSON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I rise to speak on this bill, in support. I think this is actually a really good opportunity. Obviously, it\u2019s been in the pipelines for a long, long time. I remember as a city councillor when I chaired the Urban Development and Transport Committee between 2019 and 2022 at Christchurch City Council, we were trying to get measures in place for road pricing. At that point, we did have a few councillors pushing back and most of them were on the, let\u2019s say, right side of the political spectrum. So I hope, actually, when this is approved that we can work with local government to ensure this does happen smoothly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603\u0022\u003EI know we\u2019ve heard a lot about Auckland, but the slowest commute in New Zealand is actually in Christchurch. A 2025 report showed it took Christchurch drivers 33 minutes on average to travel just 10 kilometres during the 5 p.m. rush hour. So this is a very good tool to have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603\u0022\u003EBut I think we need to acknowledge this is actually the stick; it is not a carrot. The solution to congestion is modal shift, not actual congestion pricing. What we\u2019ve seen of late is actually the taking away of funding from the areas that we will get modal shift in public transport and active transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603\u0022\u003EWhen I look at Christchurch City, we were very fortunate to have investment from the last Labour Government, the previous National Government. That paid massive dividends in our cycleway roll-out, which we started in 2013, and we\u2019re probably at least two-thirds or three-quarters of the way through. Last year, we had 4 million cycle trips in Christchurch City. One cycle counter had 500,000. That was because of investments. Point of contact surveys showed that 15 percent of the people on the cycleway cycling had got out of a car because of the cycleway. Survey after survey shows that, actually, the reason why people don\u2019t bike is because they feel unsafe and it\u2019s the cycling infrastructure that actually encourages them to bike and start biking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603\u0022\u003EThat is what reduces congestion. When we give people true modal choice, you will actually see congestion ease. It\u2019s very, very simple to actually understand that. It surprises me when I see the likes of $54 billion going to be invested in roading, when, actually, the solution is not in building more roads; it\u2019s about encouraging modal shift\u2014a very, very cheap and affordable method to not just make people move easier but also help people\u2019s health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603\u0022\u003EOne of the things that\u2019s also been interesting as well in the transport space is this clear desire from the Government to not care about the health of people too, because there\u2019s a really good opportunity to actually bring more into this space when you look at the amount of people having premature deaths because of pollution from vehicles. But yet we simply ignore the elephant in the room and just focus on little things that you think are wins when there are bigger things that we can do in the transport space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603\u0022\u003EIt has been very clear that this Government has deprioritised actual moving people and just focused on vehicles. It is not good enough for the cities. If we want to be a truly modern and sustainable country, we need to ensure that people can move around safely in all forms and modes and it\u2019s just not happening. We have seen that in Christchurch, where the Government reduced funding to active transport, that suddenly the cycleway programmes have almost come to a halt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226836780b699d4e35ab10301bc3f6e4af\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Hallelujah!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266306d3887644e3f984245cc188bc07b\u0022\u003EMIKE DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: This is not helping people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603\u0022\u003EYou say, \u201CHallelujah!\u201D; what about the young tamariki that want to bike to school? The reason why we have congestion is because you focus on cars, cars, cars, and kids are too scared to bike to school because of the attitude on the other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603\u0022\u003EWhile I support this bill, I think we need to realise that, actually, the solution to congestion is modal shift. If you actually care about people\u2019s wellbeing, you\u2019ll actually help them to get there with where they need to go safely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022603\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022478bca5a1cb3428b9081f4620941c6ed\u0022\u003EEducation and Training Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c0da1fd72d64e1895d9914977a7835c\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022 data-id=\u00220224bbfe11fb4098b27cda893afbb008\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220224bbfe11fb4098b27cda893afbb008\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Vocational Education)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Education: I present a legislative statement on the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0dd694d073f4e8f940643174e57111d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f834b558f794a609c1dfa57b0df3384\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003EThis bill represents another meaningful step towards strengthening New Zealand\u2019s education system. It introduces a range of legislative changes designed to advance the Government\u2019s key priorities and improve outcomes for learners. Among its proposals, the bill requires schools to place students\u2019 education educational achievement at the centre of their decision making, provides schools and families with more time to respond to planned union strike action, and ensures that initial teacher education, teacher discipline, and competence processes are fit for purpose. It introduces new requirements for schools to have attendance management plans, and mandates that universities uphold freedom of expression for students and staff. Changes include further measures to support a high-performing, equitable education system. My colleagues Ministers Seymour and Reti will speak to those proposals shortly. The changes in this bill are vital to advancing our goals to raise student achievement and attendance, prepare our future-ready workforce, and build a knowledge-rich curriculum grounded in the science of learning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003EOne of the key proposals in this bill relates to changes to section 127 of the Education and Training Act. As the Minister of Education has previously raised, this Government is relentlessly focused on lifting student achievement and closing the equity gap so that every learner gains the skills they need to thrive. Section 127 sets out the range of objectives that school boards must deliver. This bill amends the section to make educational achievement the paramount objective for all school boards. This means that boards must treat educational achievement as their highest priority when making decisions. To achieve this, boards must also meet a range of essential supporting objectives, including a new focus on student attendance and good quality assessment, as well as other existing obligations around safe and inclusive school environments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003EDuring the committee of the whole House, the Minister of Education introduced Amendment Paper 428 that made further changes to section 127. This proposal responded to the Government\u2019s Treaty reference review, which was part of the National - New Zealand First coalition agreement to undertake a review of all legislative references relating to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. Currently, section 127 requires schools to carry out a legal duty to give effect to the Treaty. However, questions were raised during this review, about whether it was appropriate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af17bfd8a2934ab6adfd289446f7ee32\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask members to not talk across the Chamber, because we\u2019re trying to listen to the Minister. Continue, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226acad009d0ee45a785d3ece870bd031c\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank you\u2014for boards, who are made-up of parents and volunteers, to be held accountable for meeting the Crown\u2019s Treaty obligations. This Government considers that it is unreasonable to expect elected parents, who volunteer their time, to discharge the Crown\u2019s legal responsibilities in respect of the Treaty. Instead, the Government believes that it is the Crown\u2019s responsibility to support M\u0101ori educational success. And we currently do this in education\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5921ae358ec4322b04988c84cf5be42\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: How?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf785a0f5e424702b5f7fa154d5bf751\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014through a range of different initiatives\u2014wait and I\u2019ll tell you\u2014plans, and programmes, including the M\u0101ori Education Action Plan, which sets clear goals for delivering better outcomes in the classroom for M\u0101ori students and focuses on delivering a knowledge-rich curriculum using evidence-based teaching methods in te reo matatini and p\u0101ngarau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003EThe curriculum refresh, which makes changes to the national curriculum, includes te Marautanga o Aotearoa and includes a more knowledge-rich approach to teaching and learning and includes more concepts drawn from te ao M\u0101ori than previous curricula covering history, language, and culture. Further Budget 2025 investments include the allocation of over $100 million\u2014$100\u00A0million\u2014to lift M\u0101ori education achievement through things like new curriculum resources in te reo M\u0101ori and investing in safe, warm, and dry classrooms for kaupapa M\u0101ori and M\u0101ori-medium kura. We are already seeing indications of progress from this work. When phonics was first introduced, only 25\u00A0percent of M\u0101ori five-year-olds were meeting expectations. That figure has now risen to 43 percent, and the number needing reading support has dropped from 62\u00A0percent to 47 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003EThe bill replaces the provisions on how schools are required to give effect to the Treaty, with new, supporting objectives\u2014that all boards must give effect to\u2014to meet their paramount objective of educational achievement. These new objectives require boards to seek to achieve equitable outcomes for M\u0101ori students, take all reasonable steps to provide for students to be taught and to learn in te reo M\u0101ori on request of their parents or immediate caregivers, and takes reasonable steps to ensure that the policies and practices for the school reflect New Zealand\u2019s cultural diversity. This change continues to maintain the need for boards to seek to achieve equitable outcomes for M\u0101ori students. However, it also reflects the reality that while some families may consider teaching in te reo M\u0101ori important to their children\u2019s education, this change provides choice so that they can enable their children to be educated in line with their child or family\u2019s aspirations. Overall, we consider that these new changes will help focus boards on delivering equitable and excellent educational outcomes for all New Zealand students through clarifying expectations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003EAlongside the changes to school board objectives, the bill also removes the ability for a Minister of Education to issue a statement of national education and learning priorities\u2014NELPS. This tool was originally introduced to give schools greater strategic direction. However, the updated school board objectives, together with curriculum statements and frameworks, provide stronger, clearer directions setting clear requirements to help guide schools more effectively. Again, the Minister of Education does not want schools to be overburdened or distracted from educational achievement. By streamlining boards\u2019 obligations and removing the NELP, schools will have a clear, simple framework with achievement at the forefront.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003EWe know that schools will need some time to give effect to these changes, and that is why the Education and Workforce Committee have agreed to amend the date at which the school boards\u2019 next strategic plan takes effect, from 1 January 2026 to 1 January 2027. This will provide for boards to prepare for and make changes to their strategic plan in 2026 and consult with their community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003EAnother key change proposed in this bill is increasing the amount of days\u2019 notice that unions must provide before they strike, from three days to no less than seven days. We recognise and respect the rights of unions to strike\u2014it is a fundamental part of a democratic framework. However, schools and parents need adequate time to prepare for the disruption that strike action can cause. This includes determining whether they remain open, and, if so, arranging provision for supervision. Parent, caregivers, and wh\u0101nau deserve sufficient time to make alternative arrangements should their school decide to close. Every learning day matters, and this change continues to preserve the rights of union to strike, but we believe that it is a practical and fair adjustment that supports our students, respects our educators, and strengthens our system overall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229011ebaae6074059aae6b78fb321f2a3\u0022\u003EAs mentioned in the Minister\u2019s second reading speech, teachers have a significant influence on the educational success of all learners. In particular, the quality of teaching is a critical factor that influences educational outcomes. This bill makes amendments to strengthen initial teacher education through greater Government involvement in standards for teacher registration and practising certificates and approvals of initial education programmes. The Minister wishes to pass on her thanks to colleagues who have given consideration to this bill, and we commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u002299a182f4806b47b88648103834a81d9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299a182f4806b47b88648103834a81d9f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022 data-id=\u00228eb4adba62104121b622fbbbbe4ece2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228eb4adba62104121b622fbbbbe4ece2a\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247140f3242684bebbc58db9ace81cfb5\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, God! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd34e0f47b7344c18bf31ae723f8e87a\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. Did that member across there just say \u201COh, God!\u201D as I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223dbbf87187d4c5dbb1c4ca31501a652\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019ve heard your speech before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295b0892331174df089779e863c038813\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Oh right, what a start\u2014the Deputy Prime Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EThis bill is an absolute travesty\u2014travesty\u2014because what we have here is this Government ramming through these changes and this legislation. They\u2019re ramming it through because they didn\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022978a15d94c93429893dae9ae232211ec\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Hey, we went through a full select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212e1964ad06341a0a2a0238a36101736\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Is that right, Mr Chair? Full select committee process for the two Amendment Papers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211cdfd9e50e04a68a0500c05c2d57466\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: You were there. Did you concentrate? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022366ef750a1f24edeb76a20fb91268f45\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want you having conversations across the Chamber. Please restrain yourself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222f21ccbf8e3403dbb93780234eb0338\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ll point out for the chair of the Education and Workforce Committee that this did not go through a full select committee process. The two Amendment Papers tabled by the Minister last week in the committee of the whole House stage of this bill did not go through a select committee process, so the public did not have an opportunity to make submissions on the proposed changes to remove the section regarding Te Tiriti o Waitangi for boards or the changes to the Teaching Council of Aotearoa New Zealand. Now, this is a travesty, because what we have here are two really significant changes which, as I just said, have had no consultation, no select committee process, and, actually, very little debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EIn terms of Te Tiriti o Waitangi: first, the Government\u2019s plan was to deprioritise that in the legislation, but then, after significant lobbying by Hobson\u2019s Pledge, the Minister caved to Hobson\u2019s Pledge, caved to the Deputy Prime Minister\u2019s political and ideological agenda, and actually removed that provision for boards. There were patronising comments that volunteers and parents cannot understand what Te Tiriti o Waitangi obligations are from both Ministers\u2014that Minister that has spoken today, and the Minister that spoke last week. They are elected members of a Crown entity, and, in fact, we had the president of Te Whakar\u014Dputanga Kaitiaki Kura o Aotearoa, or the New Zealand School Boards Association, Meredith Kennett, say that the change would undermine the legal and practical standing of schools as Crown entities and risk damaging wider social cohesion, to no clear benefit. Kennett said that the clause did not cause harm, but removing it would. \u201CTo understand attendance and achievement statistics for rangatahi M\u0101ori, you have to understand our history\u2014and that includes Te Tiriti,\u201D she said. \u201CThat understanding leads to more practical, effective, and inclusive school policies.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EThis particular amendment that the Government introduced during the committee stage, without consultation, without a select committee process, is absolutely undermining our founding document and undermining our boards of trustees. It\u2019s no wonder we have seen them, in the last week, rejecting this Government\u2019s moves to undermine them\u2014doing the best for their schools and their communities\u2014by patronising, saying that they can\u2019t understand what the obligations must be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EThe Minister did not answer my questions in the House last week, when I asked what are the Crown\u2019s obligations under Te Tiriti o Waitangi when it comes to education, and how will the Government ensure that the authority that they give to school boards is going to be overseen and that we are going to have assurance that the Minister is going to be able to ensure all schools uphold her Treaty of Waitangi obligations, when there is no mechanism for us to be able to see that. They are delegating significant authority to school boards with no responsibility to do it in a way that upholds Te Tiriti o Waitangi. We have had organisation after organisation, school board after school board, in just a week, come out condemning this Government\u2019s changes to removing Te Tiriti o Waitangi from school boards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EThe other issue that I want to talk to\u2014which we didn\u2019t have an opportunity in the committee of the whole House stage last week\u2014was the significant changes that this Government is making to the Teaching Council through their Amendment Paper. To the chair of the committee on the other side of the House, I say that this was another one that did not come to select committee and did not have consultation. What we have is, basically, the Minister had already tried to do this before: remove these powers from the Teaching Council. She wants to set the standards for the teaching profession. This is a political overreach. This is going to allow for the political influence and interference into the teaching profession. We don\u2019t have that for doctors; we don\u2019t have that for lawyers\u2014but here, this Minister wants to take on that responsibility and have the ability to have that level of political overreach into our teaching profession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003ENow, this did actually come up in one submission in the select committee, and I point that out for everybody, because basically, the Minister is adopting the playbook of The New Zealand Initiative. This particular change was in their submission, and I don\u2019t think anybody in this House should be surprised that the Minister has chosen to pick up the suggestions and recommendations from The New Zealand Initiative and take that and put that into an Amendment Paper, introduce it at the last minute with no consultation, no select committee process, and pass it through the House, because so many of the things that this Minister of Education is doing comes from suggestions\u2014the manifesto, submissions\u2014from The New Zealand Initiative. We should all be concerned, because if the Minister is successful in taking these powers of the Teaching Council and putting them in the Ministry of Education\u2014and tonight is the first stage of that\u2014they will be responsible for setting the standards for the teaching profession. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EI also think that they are starting to lay the groundwork, the foundations, soften everything, ready for performance-based pay. That is something that has been rejected time and time again, and here we have the Minister taking the steps to allow that to happen. Mark my words, that\u2019s what her agenda is. Also, the Minister has already developed the set of standards she would like for the Teaching Council, so she\u2019ll just be able to bring those: \u201CHere\u2019s what I prepared earlier but wasn\u2019t able to get through because I was advised by the ministry not to. Now, I have this opportunity to do that in law. Here is the first stage.\u201D Again, this is going to be rammed through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003ESo we have teaching organisations who have hit back on the Minister\u2019s proposals. Here, we have the headline \u201CEducation groups oppose minister\u2019s Teaching Council shake-up\u201D. We have signatories from NZEI Te Riu Roa, the New Zealand Post Primary Teachers\u2019 Association, the New Zealand Principals Federation, Te Akatea, New Zealand Catholic Primary Principals Association, New Zealand Pasifika Principals\u2019 Association, Aotearoa Educators Collective, Montessori Aotearoa, Kindergartens Aotearoa, and the Tertiary Education Union\u2014representing approximately 100,000 educators in New Zealand, all expressing significant serious concerns about the Minister\u2019s proposals to take the Teaching Council into the ministry so she can have the ability to influence and interfere in the profession. Ultimately, this, they say, will put the quality of teaching and learning for our students at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EWe should all be seriously concerned when that many organisations, representing close to 100,000 educators, are writing an open letter and expressing serious concerns about a piece of legislation that the Minister simply introduced as an Amendment Paper in a committee of the whole House stage, without a select committee process, without consultation, and it\u2019s just going to pass into law tonight. As I said at the beginning of my speech, this is an absolute travesty that we have the Minister here first trying to deprioritise Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and now entirely removing it from the responsibilities of school boards. They did not consult on this. They did not get support for this through the proper process. They introduced it in the House in the committee of the whole House stage. That is not democratic, and we are seeing backlash from the sector, from the schools, from our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224653ab470afe42beb97a6de14d326409\u0022\u003EI hope the Minister will listen, but I don\u2019t believe I have seen her demonstrate that to date. She is going to continue to push ahead, regardless of the fact that there is no evidence to support these proposals that she has here\u2014no evidence. What she has is a coalition agreement that said she was going to do these things, so that is political, not educational. We do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc5a685eb10540e8841b487aed633a10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc5a685eb10540e8841b487aed633a10\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is a despicable bill by a despicable, despicable Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe Green Party will not be supporting this, and let\u2019s discuss why. First of all, the bill is going to remove giving effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi in the school board under section 127 of the Education and Training Act 2020. Now, this, as the previous speaker, the Hon Willow-Jean Prime, has mentioned, is an amendment that was introduced in the House during the committee of the whole House stage. This was not consulted on, this was not part of the select committee stage, and this has received backlash from the New Zealand School Boards Association themselves, who are most affected by this. It removes local tikanga M\u0101ori, it removes m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWhy is the Minister of Education doing all of this? Let\u2019s face it, the mask has really come off from the Minister on her agenda to attack Te Tiriti o Waitangi. She doesn\u2019t need the Minister of Justice\u2019s support any more\u2014she can do that for herself. We\u2019re seeing the removal of the National Education and Learning Priorities (NELPs), despite the fact that in the truancy inquiry report done in 2027, it says that NELPs are helpful when it comes to attendance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWhat is this bill aiming to do? Actually, more broadly, what is the Government\u2019s agenda? A lot of this bill is the Government and the Ministers saying that they want educational outcomes for students. Are educational outcomes important? Yes, but what is education? Education is about curiosity. Education is about children understanding and having a love of learning and asking questions. Education is not a means to an end. It is not that you go to school, you go to uni, you work, you retire, you die. But that is what this Government wants out of education, because it has a Minister who has never set foot in front of a classroom, who does not understand what it means to be an educator, and who has the arrogance to not consult with the sector on any of the changes that are being made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that is going to create good little productive units, because that is what this Government wants. They want labour units. They don\u2019t want people to ask questions. They don\u2019t want people to learn. This is what\u2019s going to happen with this bill. When we have an announcement made by the Minister with a backdrop of Business New Zealand that\u2019s done in a law firm with no teacher or student in sight, that is a problem and that should be a concern for parents, for students, and for teachers in Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWe are seeing Te Tiriti under attack. What we\u2019re seeing from this Minister is that while, yes, they are tooting about the fact that they are doing all of these little things\u2014first of all, if you look for success, you can find success anywhere, and that\u2019s what we are finding with some of the reports that are coming out regarding education. We are seeing a cherry-picking of evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENinety-seven percent of \u0101konga M\u0101ori are in English-medium streams. They will be under this system. This Government is like, \u201CWell, what is wrong with removing Te Tiriti o Waitangi from school boards? They can still do it.\u201D But do you know what? School boards had 150 years to teach Te Tiriti o Waitangi and to teach New Zealand history to students, and it wasn\u2019t done. So the fact that they\u2019re like \u201COh, school boards can still do it.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s not going to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWhen they are talking about \u201CWe want to make sure that everyone\u2019s going to succeed.\u201D\u2014no. They want to make sure that people only succeed within a white framework. They are saying that they want educational outcomes for M\u0101ori, but God forbid as M\u0101ori; God forbid that there should be educational outcomes as Chinese. They mean that with this legislation, you have the option, if you ask for it, and so if you want access to your heritage and your culture, you\u2019d better beg for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThat is what this Government is trying to do when it comes to education: \u201CKnow your place; otherwise, we will put you in your place.\u201D That\u2019s what\u2019s happening with this bill right here. It is sheer arrogance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019re looking at this bill, when we\u2019re looking at the fact of changing the New Zealand history curriculum\u2014I want to know, how is that history curriculum going to be taught? Are they going to teach about the colonial history of the oppression that Chinese people had to go through in the Opium War, when our imperial palaces were sacked by the colonial power and our heritage looted? Are they going to talk about the Congo massacre that Leopold II of Belgium committed on the people of Congo, which was one of the worst tragedies in the world? Are they going to teach about blackbirding, where Pasifika people were traded as slaves in Aotearoa and Australia? Are they going to teach the colonial history of the world and the fact that it was the colonial powers that caused what we\u2019re seeing here today? Are they going to teach any of that in this history curriculum? Because if they are not, if they are not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f41afbd3704a77be3e16ea18a99f20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c459a951d23045cfb7df3fa6f181fe63\u0022\u003ECelia Wade-Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think they know about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d91c2a51c564437d9ee09849ae2d4ac3\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: No, of course they don\u2019t know about it, because that would actually require people to know global history, for a change. It would require them to know the history of Aotearoa, for a change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWhen we are looking at this bill and when we are looking at the fact that Te Tiriti is going to be removed from board obligations, we are looking at the fact that the Minister has, without consultation, decided to stack the Teaching Council and rob it of its independence, where now there are going to be more ministerial appointees on the Teaching Council than genuinely independent elected officials. When we\u2019re looking at the fact that amendments that have been dropped during the committee stage have not had proper consultation, that is undermining not only Te Tiriti o Waitangi; that is undermining the democracy of Aotearoa and that is undermining the unity and kotahitanga of Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThat should never be accepted by the House\u2014that should never be accepted by anyone in the House\u2014but am I surprised? No, because we\u2019re seeing decisions made by this Government over and over again in sheer arrogance, because they think they know what\u2019s best for every single sector. They think they know more than teachers. They think they know more than educators, more than people who have spent decades of their life\u2014and from a Minister who has been a Minister for half a second\u2014and they think that they then know better than the people who are the professionals. That is hubris.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EAs I mentioned during the committee stage, this is something that the Green Party will not support. Also, when we did ask the Minister a question during the committee stage on why she chose to cherry-pick certain things and certain data, there was no response for that. There\u2019s no response. The Minister keeps on talking about the recent changes being made for the Teaching Council because of the OECD\u2019s Teaching and Learning International Survey report of 2024, but there were lots of things in that report, such as the fact that our teachers in Aotearoa New Zealand feel that they do not have the authority to make decisions about their curriculum\u2014about the changes they\u2019re making\u2014and the fact that, on average, they work 6\u00BD hours more than the OECD average. That data was not addressed by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ETo close, the Green Party is making a commitment to educators and to teachers and to students, now. We are going to revert to and commit to the vision and direction of Te M\u0101taiaho as implemented in 2023, and we are going to commit to the intention of the original history curriculum, because ka whawhai tonu m\u0101tou, \u0101ke, \u0101ke, \u0101ke. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022e43b57039c154512864dc05749b081d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e43b57039c154512864dc05749b081d5\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m very pleased to take this call to support this bill on behalf of the ACT Party. This is a great bill from a great Government, and I really want to commend the Hon David Seymour for his work that is part of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EAs the previous member Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, who has just sat down, has said, their commitment is towards unions, our commitment is to parents and students. Their commitment is confined to only unions, not to students and not to parents, but on this side, we are committed to seeing what is best for students and what is best for parents. We have been hearing from parents, and we have been taking their interests on board in making sure that this legislation goes through this House in the best possible version.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EWe are really pleased to see the changes that have been made to this legislation in the committee of the whole House, and I heard members on that side saying that the committee of the whole House stage was not the appropriate process. They had so many Amendment Papers, and even if, like, one Amendment Paper of theirs had gone through, I would ask them: would you have said the same thing\u2014that that process was not the right process? No, they would not have, because this is the process that we adopted, and it was in the committee of the whole House that we made the changes on the basis of the feedback that we were getting when the bill was reported back from the Education and Workforce Committee. So I don\u2019t understand what those members were saying about the committee of the whole House, because that is a process, and I can\u2019t remember how many Amendment Papers there were. I think that it was close to 130 Amendment Papers, or something like that. They were fighting to make changes in the committee of the whole House, and now they are saying, \u201CWhy did you make changes to this bill in the committee of the whole House?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really pleased to see the changes that have been made to this bill in the committee of the whole House because the objectives of school boards are not to give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi. That is just a distraction. It\u2019s just shifting their attention to something that is not measurable. We want to see that school boards are able to deliver in the best interests of students. We want to see that they are focused on improving numeracy, they are focused on improving literacy, they\u2019re focused on improving attendance, and they\u2019re focused on improving engagement. These are the kinds of things that parents have been asking to see school boards deliver, and that is what we are delivering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003ESchool boards are not entities that are there for any kind of cultural or political kind of motivation in these institutions. Their job as a governance board is in being an educational institute, and so we want to see that they are focused on delivering the best educational outcomes for all students, irrespective of their racial background, whether they\u2019re M\u0101ori, Pasifika, Chinese, Indian, or of any racial background. To say that this is going to have a negative impact on M\u0101ori students\u2014that is just rubbish. Why do I say this? Because still now, that is happening, and we haven\u2019t seen that making any difference to M\u0101ori students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EI do accept that, yes, there will be some students who do lag behind. Not every student can learn at the same pace, and so what we need to do is we need to focus on those students on the basis of their need. Race has nothing to do with that, and giving effect to the Treaty of Waitangi is not going to help anybody. It\u2019s just a waste of resources, and so I\u2019m very pleased to see that in the committee of the whole House, we\u2019ve managed to make this change. In my second reading speech, I said that this was going to be removed as part of the wider Treaty clauses review, or even before that, and so we\u2019re really pleased that it has happened before that so that schools get more certainty, parents get more certainty, and students actually know that they have to focus on numeracy and literacy, and they have to focus on learning the subjects that are going to give them the skills to succeed in the real world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003ETalking about attendance, yes, attendance management plans in schools are really important. We saw that attendance in schools dropped under the previous Labour Government, and we have been working really, really hard. Again, I want to commend the Hon David Seymour for his work, and we are seeing that the attendance data is looking better and better, day by day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EThis will happen only when students see that they have value when they go to school. If we\u2019re not providing value to students, they\u2019re not going to turn up to school if we\u2019re just wasting their time, and even parents will think that sending their children to school is just a waste of their time. We want to see that schools are able to provide real value to students so that parents also think that \u201CYes, my child should be in school.\u201D That is what we are doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EIn this legislation, we are ensuring that schools will have attendance management plans, and, of course, I understand that there can be so many different reasons why students don\u2019t turn up to school. That\u2019s why we are saying that the schools should respond to the underlying reasons, as well, for students being absent, because that will give us a really good picture of what is happening in different schools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003ENow, finally, I want to talk about freedom of expression in universities. Yes, we start from school, and in school, the children learn about the skills that are needed to succeed in the world. In university, they learn those skills, but they also want the exposure to the wider world, and what is happening at the moment is we are restricting that kind of exposure for students. We want to empower students. We want to protect those students who want to bring different kinds of speakers and those who want to express different views on campuses\u2014they should be able to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EUnder the previous Labour Government, open debate was under threat. Open debate was under threat under the previous Labour Government, and we want to see that open debate is protected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003EWe want to see that people are able to hear different kinds of views and they\u2019re able to make up their own minds. If they want to accept those views and agree with those views or disagree with those views, students should be able to do that when they are at university. That is the age at which they should be able to develop that kind of thinking process, and we want to see that that is happening. I\u2019m really pleased to see that in this legislation, universities will be required to develop and commit to having a policy of freedom of expression, and also there will be a complaints process, which will make this whole thing really transparent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cd5db2f655ea454cb2415423b8c65bea\u0022\u003ESo this is a really good bill. We\u2019re very pleased to support it and we commend this bill to the House. Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0bcfd2a4af84f23922304f0ec0abbc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0bcfd2a4af84f23922304f0ec0abbc4\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Speaker. When I was listening to the Opposition speeches, which seemed like a defence of the current education system, you\u2019d kind of think that from the Opposition point of view, everything is working really, really well. Willow-Jean Prime said that this bill is a travesty. To me, that is defending the indefensible, because at the moment the travesty actually is that our education system has been failing our young people for a very long time and it\u2019s getting worse. The level of attendance is really, really poor and we are starting to see that beginning to come back up again with a lot of hard work, particularly from the Ministers in this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re also seeing the levels of achievement in some of those core skills\u2014the ability to read, to write, to be numerate. Those kind of skills had got to a level which we should be collectively ashamed of and yet the Opposition seem to be defending that. That, to me, is defending the indefensible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003ELook, if you don\u2019t believe what I\u2019m saying there, just look at what the regulatory impact statement (RIS) says: \u201CWhile there is much good practice and achievement in the New Zealand education system, educational achievement data shows significant gaps and variability in the educational achievement of New Zealand students. The 2022 results of the OECD\u2019s Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) examinations continue the trend of worsening overall performance of New Zealand students and large equity gaps.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d79d5e4fd2054624b4b2310132eff815\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What has that got to do with Te Tiriti?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214cb0c420c90424aa0abebc077292b16\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: That has nothing to do with Te Tiriti, but what that does have to do\u2014actually, I\u2019ll come back to that. It does have a little bit to do with Te Tiriti, but what it does say is that we have a problem in our education system. That problem is that our students\u2014[Interruption] I don\u2019t know what these people are yelling and screaming about, but what that says is that our education system is failing our students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it quite rightly says that that is not acceptable, and it says that instead of a confused mess of several equal and competing objectives in the education system, we are going to say that there is a primary objective\u2014a primary objective in the education system, a paramount objective\u2014and then there are a number of supporting objectives. That seems reasonable, doesn\u2019t it? Doesn\u2019t it seem like common sense to say that a school board\u2019s paramount objective in governing a school is to ensure that every student at the school is able to attain their highest possible standard in educational achievement? Does that sound like a terrible thing? It sounds like a very, very good thing to me, because what\u2019s quite clear is that, at the moment, that has not been happening and this bill is about saying that is front and centre. There are a whole bunch of supporting objectives, but that is front and centre. That is the most important objective of our school system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EIn terms of Te Tiriti, I think there was a question and a bit of interchange that that happened during question time. It was about what this bill does in terms of giving effect to Te Tiriti. Well, it actually does one very, very practical thing because what it says is it seeks to achieve equitable outcomes for M\u0101ori students. We know that M\u0101ori students generally are performing much worse than students as a whole, and so to lift that, surely, has to be a good thing, and it is not an amorphous objective about Te Tiriti. It is saying very concretely that we want to lift the performance of those students, in this case M\u0101ori students, who are not performing at the level that they need to. Across the board, our students are not performing at the level they need to. That is particularly true of some sectors of society\u2014M\u0101ori students and people from lower socioeconomic areas are performing particularly poorly, and they need to be lifted up. We don\u2019t want just to have some really high performers up here and then a big tail of people who are not able to cope in the education system. That is not setting those people up to be citizens of the world, citizens of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe next part of this bill is about ensuring that schools have attendance management regimes. Again, that makes sense. How can you learn if you\u2019re not actually at school? This Government has put a lot of focus there, and the Hon David Seymour has put a lot of focus on making sure that we get more of our students spending more of their time at school, so they are\u2014guess what!\u2014learning more. That has got to be a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EFinally, in terms of the Teaching Council\u2014because we had a lot of that from the Opposition as well\u2014again, if you look at the RIS, the RIS is quite clear because it says that at the moment what\u2019s happening is that we are not setting our teachers up for success either. It talks about saying, if I can find\u2014oh, there we go. \u201CIf new teachers do not feel confident in their preparedness to teach areas of the curriculum, it is likely that their learners will struggle in these curriculum areas.\u201D So what that is saying\u2014and we know that\u2019s the case\u2014is that we are not setting our teachers up. I was a teacher 30-odd years ago. We are not setting our teachers up to succeed either, and it is really, really important that we rectify that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe last couple of things I would say\u2014what an impassioned speech that was from Lawrence Xu-Nan. In terms of history\u2014and I used to be a history teacher once\u2014we should be teaching every bit of history that we can. Of course, I mean, history is such an enormous thing. We should be celebrating history. We should be teaching that, and we should do that, warts and all. There are no perfect races, no perfect groups in history. We should be doing that warts and all. Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, you\u2019re quite right; curiosity, love of learning is really, really important. What we should be making sure is that people are able to look at that information and to make up their own minds about what it means, not be told what to think. I think that is much more the fault of Governments of the left rather than Governments of the right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EThe final thing I wanted to say, it seems slightly anomalous to the rest of the bill, but it is an important thing as well, and it\u2019s good that we actually bring a lot of things in together\u2014the issue of freedom of speech at universities. Quite clearly, we have seen quite a number of instances where freedom of speech has been denied, where both staff and students have been unable to say what they would like to say. Freedom of speech is a cornerstone of democracy, and it is really, really important. It is really, really important that universities are required to adopt statements on freedom of expression and the way in which that is done is set out very, very clearly. I think that will make universities, which should be the place where you have debate, sometimes uncomfortable debate\u2014they should be the place that we have those discussions, and I think that is a good thing as well. So with that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4348a404774422c9c702e733929cb08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4348a404774422c9c702e733929cb08\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022 data-id=\u0022d238f18c5ac94c6f84ba69593b716e2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d238f18c5ac94c6f84ba69593b716e2e\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. It\u2019s an honour to be here, standing on behalf of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori in staunch opposition to this Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 2). This is not a minor or technical tweak. It is actually the rotten stripping and the removal of Te Tiriti o Waitangi from the education system. That\u2019s what we\u2019re contending with today. It removes M\u0101ori partnership, it removes iwi partnership, it removes accountability to tangata w\u2019enua, it removes accountability to iwi, and it\u2019s deliberately silencing our tamariki M\u0101ori in their own classroom. It\u2019s a regression. It\u2019s a regression to a monocultural colonial model of education that is knowingly erasing Te Tiriti in this time and age\u2014knowing the importance of mokopuna, of tamariki, of rangatahi, turning up to schools and being comfortable in their own cultural identity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003EWe are all here because of Te Tiriti o Waitangi and yet we have a Government who\u2019s intentional on trying to wipe it and attack it from the moment it got in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003ERepeka Lessels, who is the president of the New Zealand Educational Institute, with 50,000-plus members, said that this is the latest in a series of racist, dogmatic attacks on our education system. That is from an absolute specialist. We have got schools\u2014and I\u2019m going to read them out because what I want our wh\u0101nau to do in listening to this debate is actually get in behind these schools and encourage more to join them: Whakat\u0101ne High School, Te Uru Karaka Newton Central School, Allandale Primary School, Apanui School, Tauranga Intermediate, Te Kura Takiwa o Opononi, Prospect School, Ao Tawhiti Unlimited Discovery school, Te Hiwa Shirley Primary School, Richmond Road School, P\u0101p\u0101moa Primary School, Somerfield Te Kura Wairepo, Sunnyvale Primary, Victoria Primary School, Te Kura o Hau Karetu, Huirangi School, Waterloo School, St Mary\u2019s School in Foxton, Opoutere School, One Tree Point School, Ruak\u0101k\u0101 Primary School, South Otago High School, Porirua East School, Paraparaumu College, Albany Senior High School, Te Aute College, and Te Kura o Mangaweka. These are colleges that are actually in the areas that some of these Government MPs belong to, and huge accolades to these schools for showing leadership because they are actually doing something that we encourage the rest of the country and the rest of the schools to stand in solidarity and support them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003EThis is what we have, and Governments cannot wipe us out. Governments cannot wipe us out. They have tried before. Today, there are 29 kura and growing; 950,000 \u0101konga and tauira and teachers who are calling this Government out. They are calling out the Government\u2019s short-sighted, anti-M\u0101ori, anti-Treaty approach that they have shown from the moment this Government got in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003EI think of Moana Jackson above, who reminded everyone in Aotearoa that the Treaty has \u201Cnever been about Treaty rights, it\u2019s always been about the rightness that comes from people accepting their obligations to each other.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003EThis Government is out of touch with the very communities it\u2019s meant to represent. Instead, this Government has been ignored, quite rightfully, by the schools that have got the courage to show their commitment to a united Aotearoa hou, to a country that is intentional on peace. Indeed, we\u2019ll have the last laugh in 2026 when we see the end of this Government and its revolting attacks to Te Tiriti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003EWe have continued to see the beautiful, humble leader Rahui Papa and the National Iwi Chairs Forum have spoken out about this Government\u2014spoken out about it again: its blindness to what it is that encourages our tamariki with their wh\u0101nau, with their communities to stand in unison. You can only learn when you\u2019re in an environment that encourages you to be who you are, when you are allowed to express your culture, when you\u2019re allowed to express your hap\u016B, when you\u2019re allowed to express your iwi, and they are the very communities that help fund and get these schools up and running. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240e5649619404f2c80ddb4dd8ea03662\u0022\u003EThis Government is bereft. It is bereft of any conscience that should be shared towards these schools, towards our students, and towards the nation-building of Aotearoa. Shame, absolute shame on the whitewashing and the continual back-pedalling we have to the colonial construct that ruined the education, and the whole fact that they are in denial of the equity that we have in education. They are in denial of how M\u0101ori children arrive to not fit into this education system. No, instead we have a Government intent on dragging every M\u0101ori child back to where it is that they think normal is. N\u014D reira, we are absolutely opposed to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4d0a6b69cd74d18adc2a7ea0e479955\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4d0a6b69cd74d18adc2a7ea0e479955\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. The House will resume at 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.58 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022eea5f2d57c5748b7ab416b6f865fd18a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eea5f2d57c5748b7ab416b6f865fd18a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Good evening. We are still on the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 2). Francisco Hernandez.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022 data-id=\u002263191a201e9849f695e3b3c01bac4ea4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263191a201e9849f695e3b3c01bac4ea4\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. And points for the full, correct name. I wanted to take the speech to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228881480f09a84f90a06564531d75853b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We do our best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c981190a4fa9498bbefa03b63d27cae4\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, I\u2019m rising in opposition to the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 2), but in contrast to my usual form of speech, I\u2019m going to try and give a slower and more measured speech. It\u2019s good to, sort of, practise different kinds of speech techniques.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003EDuring the committee of the whole House, it was disappointing not to have been able to explore the contribution which I\u2019m going to focus my speech on, which is the issue of how this bill potentially creates restrictions on the ability of universities to act as a critic and conscience of society\u2014a function which I\u2019m sure all of us members can appreciate. It is something that I\u2019ve gotten a new appreciation for, on how important it is to ensure that universities are able to have people that are able to speak to potentially, you know, controversial ideas and such. I mean, obviously there\u2019s a spectrum of what limits can be placed and there\u2019s a spectrum of what sort of conduct is allowed to be engaged upon. But I think we all agree, in general, it\u2019d be good to not place undue restrictions on the ability of people to exercise, you know\u2014to invite speakers or overly restrict what speakers on campus are allowed to say and do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003EThis is something that was impressed on me, quite unusually, when as the Green spokesperson for tertiary education\u2014we\u2019ve been doing this save our polytechs tour\u2014and I tried to get a booking on the Otago Polytechnic campus to hold a public meeting around saving Otago Polytechnic. It all seemed to be fine at first glance. They accepted the booking, but I think a few days before the event was due to be held, the event was cancelled at the last minute by Te P\u016Bkenga, by the administration, because they didn\u2019t want the campus to be politically influenced. So, having had that happen to me, I\u2019m sympathetic to the idea that we should be protecting the rights of speakers to be able to speak on campus, because it is concerning that in a tertiary institution that people are not able to speak. I do think that this was one of the potential omissions of this bill that could have been included. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003EObviously, we take exception to how sweeping the powers of the bill are, but if we are to place polytechs on the same status as universities, and I\u2019m sure all of us members here agree that polytechs, you know, should be on the same status as universities, then they should also be required to uphold academic freedom as universities have been required to, in our view, in an overly strict way. I mean, we\u2019d water the bill down and, you know, just protect the right of speakers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003EWe do take exception to the how this bill, essentially, restricts universities from being able to take a public position on issues. And this is concerning to us because, you know, when we asked the Minister questions during the committee of the whole House stage on how taking a public position would be defined, we weren\u2019t able to get a concrete answer. That\u2019s concerning to us because universities should be able to take positions as a public institution and also submit on bills. We got no assurance from the Minister that the function of universities as a critic and conscience of society in the context of being able to submit to, you know, for example, bills in the House or really any legislation, anything that\u2019s being done in the context of the role, would be protected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003EAnother area that we would have grave concerns about, in terms of taking a public position provision, is in terms of the curriculum. Now, a very strict, hard-line application of this legislation could render universities being unable to take official stances on what they\u2019re teaching. For example, whether it\u2019s evolution versus creationism. Now, you know, we do know people are allowed to have opinions, but the difference is evolution is a scientific fact, and universities should be able to proclaim that. But, unfortunately, this bill casts doubt to that, which is why we oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u00228b80e438e55345969e95fde6be199916\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b80e438e55345969e95fde6be199916\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. To anyone listening at home to this debate this evening, they might have got confused around what is trying to be achieved here. I want to help just make it pretty clear and pretty simple, because the Opposition have tried to confuse everyone about what the role of schooling is about. This bill is focused on ensuring we help get students to school\u2014attendance\u2014and, secondly, we focus on educational achievement; and for parents like me across the country, I know that that\u2019s what we want. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022 data-id=\u002264cd99b627a2422ebd66f111e70d09af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264cd99b627a2422ebd66f111e70d09af\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you Mr Speaker. The Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 2), the legislation that nobody asked for, that universities didn\u2019t ask for, that schools did not ask for\u2014yet here we are again, debating a piece of legislation that takes away the localism, the autonomy, the decision making of our educational institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220dadb94c23504a7b8e4dca31a4ff46fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234d548f8fc54420db9edc5cbbf4fc526\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Like three waters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1f907492ecb43d4bae4e68d2c3077d7\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Like three waters, and, Mr Doocey, you campaigned against that and you promised localism, and here you are taking it away. Minister Doocey is advocating for localism, in a bill that takes away localism. How does that go? All of this because this National-led Government thinks that they know better than our educators, the sector, the school boards, and universities. It\u2019s another example where they are out of touch. In fact, the only people that this bill serves is Hobson\u2019s Pledge, Don Brash, and the Free Speech Union.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EI want to start by reflecting on clause 11 of the bill amending section 281, and its freedom of expression requirements for universities. Over the past eight months, I\u2019ve had the absolute privilege to travel across tertiary education institutions in this country and see the fantastic work that they do. I\u2019ve listened to the concerns of their leadership, their staff, and their students, and you know what? None of them have said to me that universities adopting a statement of freedom of expression is something that they want, that they need, or that it is a priority for them. This proposal is a mishmash of things. It\u2019s an afterthought, mentioned as a joke in passing about how the tail wags the dog in this Government, because in the current educational environment this is not a priority for our universities. They want to focus on the core issues, the real issues: how they can deliver for students and provide an education that sets them up for a successful workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EOn the perceived problem of freedom of expression, the Ministry of Education\u2019s regulatory impact statement makes it very clear: \u201CWe have limited evidence on the actual extent and impact of freedom of speech concerns in New Zealand.\u201D Additionally, it said that universities themselves have a \u201Clower level of overall concern that freedom of speech is being constrained.\u201D The ministry\u2019s preference was in fact to maintain the status quo. When I asked the Minister, in fact, in our select committee, who it was that asked for this bill, the only person that she could reference was in fact Don Brash. Don Brash was the only person that the Minister could say asked for this piece of the legislation. It comes as no surprise to those of us who sit on this side of the House that during the select committee process\u2019 submissions, only 13 percent of submitters who mentioned these sections of the bill supported these proposals. Ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EThere were core themes throughout the submissions that were heard. This legislation is absolutely unnecessary, overly prescriptive, and actually creates greater risks around academic freedom and the freedom of expression. The New Zealand Law Society have noted that this legislation is unnecessary\u2014they\u2019ve noted it too\u2014and \u201Cwould at best simply affirm what is already accepted to be the case under existing legislation.\u201D They asked a simple question: whether anything is gained by the proposed reform, which would impose legal obligations upon university councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EUniversities New Zealand, the sector voice for our eight universities that represents their collective views, I think answers this question best in their submission: \u201CAll universities in New Zealand regard the protection of freedom of speech, academic freedom and the encouragement of robust and respectful debate to be essential to our work and critical to our purpose. Given this enduring focus delivered via the current institutional policies, Universities New Zealand does not see that there is a problem requiring legislative change with respect to freedom of expression at our universities.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003ESo the question remains, who other than \u201CUncle\u201D Don Brash and the Free Speech Union, does this part of the legislation serve? In the UK, the Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Act and its provisions, including a mandatory complaints process like the one proposed in this legislation, resulted in the proliferation of frivolous and vexatious claims, and weaponisation of the complaints process that actually had a chilling effect on free speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EAt the heart of it, we actually know what the real issue is here and who it impacts most. It will be M\u0101ori, it will be rainbow communities, it will be those with disabilities, those that are marginalised, and it will be women. This bill sets out to undo this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EI move on to the second part\u2014and there\u2019s a lot in this unnecessary, bundle-junket of a piece of legislation. It\u2019s a lack\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f90d584ff41345418dbdfacdb6f36a11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222be809f3738a44ff8ca78ef386b8dd8a\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a bit negative, Shanan\u2014quite negative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227eff5c2d3ce4401b930fe8c04361f89c\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Somebody from the Government side just said that I\u2019m negative. Actually, the entire sector is negative about this bill. They don\u2019t agree with any of it, Stuart Smith. Are you in touch? Are you in touch with your communities? I will share one of my schools. Written to myself and National MP Dan Bidois, and to the Minister of Education, Erica Stanford, \u201CAs an appointed body to provide governance in this school, we are, effectively, the representatives of the Crown in a relationship with our school community and particularly, in this matter, with M\u0101ori. The obligations of the Treaty of Waitangi have been clearly and consistently restated by national and international rulings.\u201D They are one of many school boards across the country releasing statements like this, open letters opposing this legislation. That is because they recognise the important role they play in honouring Te Tiriti o Waitangi, a recognition that is built on their work on their ground in their own communities. Yes, we call that localism, and it is the National Government in this legislation that is taking that away. Boards of trustees lead our schools. They set the strategic direction and they are the vehicle for bridging the Crown\u2019s educational responsibilities with their local community in its unique educational context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003EThe final comment: in the committee of the whole House last week, I asked the Minister directly: how do you achieve equity without Te Tiriti o Waitangi? I\u2019ll repeat, for ears in this House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299a90fe4c8c9428eae088c44aa61115d\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Just treat everyone like a human being.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b745d2d730849b6a855e1b3753644eb\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014how is it that you achieve equity without Te Tiriti o Waitangi? David Seymour wouldn\u2019t know, he wouldn\u2019t have any idea. The Minister came back to me and asked me how you achieve equity. It comes to partnership. It comes to taking care of all tamariki in our school system. It doesn\u2019t come about by taking away the rights, the responsibilities of Te Tiriti, and the choices of schools, of trustees, and of wh\u0101nau in our education system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022 data-id=\u002258a6c4dc215048139f7fe6f0038295f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258a6c4dc215048139f7fe6f0038295f1\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. One of the key parts of this bill that I think is really worth highlighting is that the foremost obligation of boards of trustees, the priority for them, is to concentrate on educational achievement. Now, if everything is important and everything is a number one priority, then nothing is really a priority. We\u2019re returning a sense of order to things, and we are making it very clear that this is the one number one thing that we care about in education: actually educating our children. They need to turn up\u2014and that is a part of the obligations\u2014and they need to be seen to achieve. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022 data-id=\u00227e401b4b63584cf4be6d125770e788fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e401b4b63584cf4be6d125770e788fb\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Unfortunately, we have here a bill that got changed quite dramatically in the committee of the whole House. When those sorts of things happen, when we see a change that is made so drastically at that point, there is nothing other than to say that this is a grubby little bill. Not giving people the opportunity to actually speak on clauses and parts of this bill that are absolutely critical is a really, really big affront to democracy. I\u2019m really surprised because I\u2019ve heard members on that side of the House say that democracy is really important, and yet they go and they do this to this particular bill\u2014particularly when we see how the bill now removes the need for boards of trustees to give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EWhen I hear the arguments on that side of the House, I think \u201CDo they not realise, when they say that that is what the Crown needs to be doing, that boards are a Crown entity?\u201D It almost beggars beyond belief that they have no understanding of the make-up and the nature of a board of trustees. If that is the fact and, in effect, what they are saying, is it that they\u2019ve got a broader agenda around what they want to do with those boards of trustees? Giving effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi is an incredibly important function of a board of trustees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EThe fact that this came through almost under cloak and dagger was absolutely disappointing\u2014and, yes, they should be hanging their heads for such an obvious affront to the democracy of legislation in this House. [The Hon David Seymour throws his hand up] And, yes, that member over there can go like that, because that\u2019s how I feel when I see such a terrible piece of legislation that will impact on education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EWhat I will say, though, is that according to the bill as it was written and went through the committee of the whole House, boards of trustees don\u2019t have to give effect to their change in their strategic plans until 2027 anyway. So that means that they will still have to give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, which means that when this Government gets elected out in 2026, it will change anyway. So I would suggest that boards of trustees will be looking to make sure that they can keep that as they\u2019ve always known, because it is an incredibly important function of boards of trustees\u2014not that anybody that has not been involved in education would actually know that; they think they might know, but they don\u2019t have the data to actually show how much that makes a difference, because they don\u2019t understand it at that level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EThe other important aspect that came in cloak and dagger in this particular piece of legislation, which was absolutely disgraceful, was the fact of altering the composition of the Teaching Council of Aotearora here in this country. It is just unbelievable that here we have professional bodies in every area in this country\u2014we have lawyers\u2019 professional bodies, we have doctors\u2019 professional bodies, we have them right across the board, where the profession owns what is happening and owns what that profession will look like and the standards for that profession, but that Government on that side of the House will not give that ability to our teaching profession. What does that say? That says that they have very little regard for our teachers in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277274d1c7af5439eba8f475fbc5d3e69\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: No regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ca39bb1708d46c888048558b479380e\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: They have no regard for our teachers in this country, and that is absolutely disgraceful. No wonder the Ministers are getting so much correspondence from the teachers and from the principals saying how much they are absolutely upset with what that Government and what this Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EI would challenge anybody on that side of the House who comes from an alternate profession to say whether they would like the Government telling them how to do and how to run their profession\u2014such as, how to do operations, how to run a business. No, because we have the people who are the experts in those areas who run those professional bodies. Yet that Government wants to take that away from our teaching workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EThis is a disgraceful bill and shows little to no regard for our teaching profession in this country. I am disgusted in what is happening here tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022 data-id=\u0022862685d125dd46ddbe1f350ffe38fe6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022862685d125dd46ddbe1f350ffe38fe6d\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Education and Training Amendment Bill is focused on one thing: lifting achievement\u2014lifting achievement so that every Kiwi kid can reach their full potential in school, which will equip them with the knowledge and skills they need to take on life and thrive. Thank you to our Minister of Education for being bold, for being courageous and being game-changing, and for believing in the power of achievement and the power of education to lift our kids from poverty of aspiration. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u002246c3ad0cbccc453ba8eb01e77f92fbcd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246c3ad0cbccc453ba8eb01e77f92fbcd\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E This bill demonstrates so much of what is wrong with this Government. It\u2019s a grab bag of right-wing bigotry and settling scores with the Government\u2019s perceived and imagined critics. It\u2019s probably one of the reasons\u2014the fact is that this Government is so inclined to pursue fringe ideological distractions, instead of focusing on the things that people in this country are most concerned with, and that\u2019s the cost of living, actually, they spend the time of the House passing laws like this. This bill is not worthy of this House\u2019s time, it\u2019s not worthy of a Government with any self-respect and understanding of the importance of this country\u2019s institutions, and it\u2019s not worthy of a Government that claims to be laser focused on educational achievement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s take the issue of freedom of speech in our country\u2019s universities. No evidence has been presented either to this House or to the Education and Workforce Committee to justify putting the long arm of the State into our autonomous universities to basically micromanage them and make them report regularly to the Government of the day on their free speech policies. There has been no evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EAs Shanan Halbert said to the House, the only instance that was used to justify this, in all of the discussions at the select committee, was the incident when Don Brash was denied a platform at Massey University. That is the only crisis that justified this intervention. These provisions are the bastard children of the right-wing libertarian movement internationally, like the Free Speech Union, which is trying to use the power of Government to break open our universities and require them to provide platforms for the racists, the Holocaust deniers, the trans haters, all of the people that the libertarian right want to give respectability to. They want to force our universities to provide platforms for those fringe people at the cost of the credibility and the status of our universities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThe thinking behind this provision completely confuses the idea of free speech with academic freedom. Our universities are based on a tradition of academic freedom that is hundreds of years old, where ideas get tested against research in a climate that fosters independence, fosters critical thinking, and thinks about the quality of ideas. The notion of free speech that people like David Seymour and his ilk are promoting has no notion of quality. Actually, they want the most fringe, notorious people to have access to our treasured academic institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EIt also completely misses the point that free speech traditions in this country have grown up with a much more balanced approach that requires people to think about the consequences of what they say, because we live in a small island country where we have to get on with each other. The whole idea of freedom of speech should, in any sensible society, sit alongside the balance and the responsibility to consider the consequences of what you say. In universities, it\u2019s the job of the universities to make that judgment, not to have people like David Seymour and right-wing libertarians like him imposing some foreign concept of freedom of speech on our institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the provisions in this bill that set out to neuter the independence of the Teachers Council. Again, a measure in this bill for which no evidence was provided\u2014no serious or plausible rationale for these principles. Where did it come from? Where did it come from? The New Zealand Initiative. Now, I asked the House, why would the Government deliberately undermine the autonomy of the Teachers Council, the body that\u2019s legislated to govern the profession and set standards? Who\u2019s next? Lawyers, accountants, doctors? No, only teachers. That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s only one reason. We have to surmise, because they haven\u2019t actually been open enough and transparent enough to tell us why, but there is only one reason the Government would do this, because they see teachers as their ideological enemies. Now, let\u2019s think about that for a moment. The National-led coalition Government sees the people who get up every day and go off to work to teach our children and help them grow and develop and learn as their ideological enemy. You can see that in the recent comments that several Ministers made about the teachers taking industrial action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThey are happy, in the interests of cultural war politics, to reduce education policy to some kind of parody where they demonise the very people who teach our children. Their whole approach to education policy is to set up this false contradiction between teachers and parents that they\u2019re somehow in opposition to each other. Well, they\u2019re not. They are simply not. If you ask people in the community that I represent, if you ask parents what they think of the teachers in our schools, they respect them, they thank them, they appreciate them, because they know that their kids\u2019 progress in life depends, to a large extent, on good schools and good teachers, but for this Government, teachers are just pawns in their culture war.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to talk about the move to remove the clause that says that schools don\u2019t need to give effect to our country\u2019s founding document. Whose idea was this? No, it wasn\u2019t the Free Speech Union. No, it wasn\u2019t the New Zealand Initiative. This one came from Hobson\u2019s Choice, shoehorned into the coalition agreement by David Seymour and ACT, supported by New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ENo evidence was supplied to justify this move. In fact, it was basically inserted into the bill late in the select committee process. It\u2019s just an assertion that parents and teachers, the people who govern our schools, cannot be expected to understand or give effect to the Treaty of Waitangi. Who says they can\u2019t? How patronising, how absolutely patronising to say that the people who govern and run our schools\u2014thousands of schools around this country, from one end of the country to the other\u2014cannot understand and cannot give effect to our founding document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThink about this: our public school system is one of the core and most indivisible parts of the modern State. It is one of the main ways that Government touches the lives of people on a daily basis. The people who run those schools are now being told, \u201CYou\u2019re not capable of understanding or giving effect to our founding document, the Treaty of Waitangi.\u201D It says to us as New Zealanders that we have rights and responsibilities for ourselves and to each other, that this country is built on a partnership between tangata whenua and tangata Tiriti. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EIs that so hard to understand, that we owe each other the obligation to ensure that each other\u2019s views are taken into account, are heard, that M\u0101ori have a say, that we share this place and we are bound together? Is that so hard to understand for the volunteers who govern our schools? I find it absolutely gobsmacking. I worry that this philosophy that is terrified of M\u0101ori aspiration, that\u2019s terrified of our founding document is actually percolating through every Cabinet discussion, every Cabinet paper, every bit of law that comes to this House, they are trying to ethnically cleanse out of it the idea that sits beneath our founding document, and that is that this country is based on a partnership. For this side of the House, it\u2019s so terrifying. It\u2019s so obnoxious that they want to pour Janola on every bit of law and bleach out of it any kind of commitment to the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThree changes in this bill\u2014all of them fringe ideas that have come in from the outside, with no evidence to support them. This Government is content to bring pure right-wing ideology into this House at the expense of educational achievement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec1643c5181c45d9b659cdc73fc6e08f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec1643c5181c45d9b659cdc73fc6e08f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I just want to note that there are many New Zealanders who moved here to seek refuge from actual ethnic cleansing, and I think the use of that term was incredibly irresponsible and, really, he ought to withdraw it for the reputation of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddbeb4992ced48fca28fbba9fcd3ddb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddbeb4992ced48fca28fbba9fcd3ddb3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No, Mr Seymour. I heard that and I think it\u2019s probably a little bit of grandstanding on your part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022 data-id=\u00225d43be46f65043b1b25fdde25c92cdf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d43be46f65043b1b25fdde25c92cdf4\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, it\u2019s great to have the privilege to take the last call on this bill. It\u2019s a great bill. Listening to the people on the other side of the House, I\u2019m beginning to think they\u2019ve missed the memo. This bill is very simple. It\u2019s about prioritising educational achievement for students and children. And, you know what? I think it\u2019ll do the members on the other side\u2014they can do themselves a favour and go and stop talking to all their union mates and talk to parents\u2014you know, those people out there that are parents. The ones that want to send their kids to school and let them get ahead in life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003EThis Government is focused on getting kids to school, educating children, and giving them a greater opportunity in life. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ddbc22c4184a42fb93697461cea0cfae\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No\u00A02) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000657\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022 data-id=\u002298fb406215e94e9f938e167ac76470b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002299e5598886df43299456ba8aed7d56b3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298fb406215e94e9f938e167ac76470b6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Regulatory Standards Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f6276fa436a4aabba1778d87aa7485e\u0022\u003ERegulatory Standards Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a1986a2108904d00a8f1e5365e291158\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000661\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 5 November.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ad422917bd445d0b3d225bace161bb2\u0022\u003EPart 3  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000663\u0022\u003ERegulatory reviews and information-gathering powers\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00224a85270d411e43a0ba6a53d3b62d0671\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a85270d411e43a0ba6a53d3b62d0671\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee for further consideration of the Regulatory Standards Bill. When we were last considering the bill, we had just completed the debate on Part 2. We now come to Part 3. Part 3 is the debate on clauses 41 to 47, \u201CRegulatory reviews and information-gathering powers\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u002295854404a32445d697d9c3be0fae1331\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295854404a32445d697d9c3be0fae1331\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, first of all, I thank you, the other presiding officers, and members for their engagement on this bill so far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EPart 3 is a relatively simple part of the bill. It sets out provisions for the Ministry for Regulation to carry out regulatory reviews, that is, backward-looking evaluations of the stock of laws that the Parliament has previously made or allowed. It then goes on to set out how the ministry\u2014the regulatory standards ministry, that is\u2014should go about reviewing a regulatory system, or rather its responsibility to present a report to the Minister on any review it does, and subsequently for the Minister to present that to the House of Representatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EIt goes on, in a series of clauses, to set out powers for the Ministry for Regulation as a central agency to require information to be shared by Government agencies in the course of preparing briefings for regulatory management, which is a procedure that\u2019s been described earlier in Part 2; also, for giving information on regulatory reviews, such as asking for information from Government agencies. It then sets out a series of limitations on that power to request information, noting, for example, in clause 44 that it cannot demand information from the House of Representatives, an Office of Parliament, the Clerk, or the Parliamentary Service. It also goes on to say that it cannot require information from non - Public Service agencies, or at least has restrictions on that; and, finally, that it cannot require information from a person who is contracted to a Government agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EIt concludes\u2014the bill, or at least this part\u2014with the consequences of failing to comply with a notice issued by the regulatory standards ministry to provide information, and it provides that a court may make an order if the court believes it\u2019s necessary or desirable to enable the regulatory standards ministry to review a regulatory system to which any legislation relates. It has a role for the court at the very end if there is a dispute over providing information to allow the Ministry for Regulation, as a central agency, to do its job, both preparing reports and also carrying out regulatory reviews into existing regulatory systems. I hope that will make clear that the purpose of this\u2014it\u2019s really quite a straightforward purpose, with a series of exemptions and conditions for using that power for that purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u002236717a3e75fc42df8b69e235b40196f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236717a3e75fc42df8b69e235b40196f9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thought I heard the Minister for Regulation say that a person who is a contractor couldn\u2019t be asked for information. I might have misheard that but, if I didn\u2019t, that isn\u2019t how I read the Act. But that\u2019s not really where I want to start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EWhere I want to start is around why we need this part at all, because the ministry has actually undertaken a number of regulatory reviews already, and the idea that one ministry whose job it is to undertake regulatory reviews\u2014the Ministry for Regulation\u2014needs a special statutory power to ask another agency for information about the regulations that are being administered seems truly extraordinary. That kind of interaction between ministries can be dealt with entirely by Ministers and, if necessary, by Cabinet minutes. So why on earth we need this, I seriously don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe other thing is this: it\u2019s actually really intrusive. You\u2019re asking about how a regulation works and you have a sweeping, or a largely unconstrained power. The only constraint on it is that it\u2019s for the purpose, if necessary or desirable\u2014or whatever the exact words are\u2014of undertaking a regulatory review. So it\u2019s entirely conceivable that you might want to look at complaints information which contains personal information, or any other number of kinds of information which ought not readily be shared between departments. So it\u2019s funny that you\u2019ve got the first half of the bill saying it is to protect liberties and rights\u2014presumably, including the right to privacy\u2014and then Part 3 of the bill says \u201CForget about that. If we\u2019re undertaking a review, we should be able to embark on a sweeping inquiry. A bit of a Star Chamber inquiry, where we can look at, essentially, whatever we like.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI guess that\u2019s why in my amendment\u2014and there\u2019s a few of them here\u2014that I lodged on 4\u00A0November at 12.08 p.m., I suggest that there should actually be some further constraints, and there are a couple of constraints. One is the obligation\u2014because in these regulatory reviews, you\u2019ve got all this information-gathering power and no direction as to how the reviews themselves should be conducted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s a couple of points there. First, which is the obvious one: consult with affected stakeholders. It\u2019s all very nice to do a review, whether it be on farrowing crates or otherwise, and consult with farmers, but not animal welfare groups. So all affected stakeholders should be consulted. The other one, of course, is that when you\u2019re undertaking a review\u2014particularly one that touches on things to do with M\u0101ori\u2014you should take into account the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. Now, that\u2019s a pretty standard thing, and I would have thought that would have been a really easy and reasonable thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EIt might be that the Minister, or his officials, have some better and further rules about what it actually means to undertake a review and what it should look like, because it\u2019s all very nice to say that \u201CYou do a review, and here\u2019s information-gathering powers.\u201D, but to give some procedural rules about what a review is, what its purposes are, and what its extent is would be very useful, as well. That\u2019s why I\u2019ve got that amendment in\u2014but, on reflection, perhaps it doesn\u2019t go quite as far as it should. But I\u2019d be very interested in the Minister\u2019s observations as to (a) why this is needed, (b) what the constraints on intrusion are, and (c) what, in particular, constraints there are on what is reviewed; how and why and when.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00228fde37012c064e8b9fc1895f61011d71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fde37012c064e8b9fc1895f61011d71\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have a few questions for the Minister for Regulation regarding Part 3, but I think I want to start by asking a broader question around clause\u00A041 regarding regulatory review reports. It\u2019s, again, looking at the report and briefing from the Regulations Review Committee. I still have some concerns over the potential overlap between the work that is being done by the Regulatory Standards Board and also the Regulations Review Committee. There are a couple of things, if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind sort of clarifying. My understanding is that the Regulatory Standards Board covers primary and secondary legislation, whereas the Regulatory Review Committee covers only secondary legislation, so I\u2019ll be approaching this only from the context of secondary legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWhat sorts of instances can the Minister foresee where there is a partial or complete overlap between the function of the Regulatory Standards Board and that of the Regulations Review Committee? When that does happen, how does the Minister foresee that engagement between the board and the committee on matters such as this? Additionally, what happens. Then, when the review done by the Regulatory Standards Board and the review done by the Regulations Review Committee do not necessarily overlap or align? What are the mechanisms there for the two groups to come together? That\u2019s my first series of questions regarding the two, and I\u2019m sure that others who have been on the Regulations Review Committee much longer than I have may also have additional questions for the Minister regarding that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI want to continue on with looking at clause 41(2), which is talking about \u201Creasonably practicable after completing the review\u201D. I just want to check: what, then, would the Minister, in this case\u2014because they have to give it to the regulatory standards Minister\u2014be expecting when we are looking at \u201Creasonably practicable\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI guess that the next question that I have for the Minister is when we are looking at\u2014let\u2019s say, I\u2019m going to ask the last few questions, but I\u2019m going to just focus now on clause 42(1). I think that this is something that submitters have raised concerns around, which is the scope of power when you\u2019re looking at \u201CThe chief executive of the regulatory standards ministry may, by a written notice, require\u201D. Is that requirement then mandatory, again, to fulfil? I guess, in a way, that consists of centralisation of power, particularly\u2014unlike the Regulations Review Committee, which is a Parliament committee\u2014that this is solely within the one ministry, and no ministry or agency has that kind of power to expect or to require information from others, as far as I know of. The Minister may have other advice on that, but I do want to know what the scope of the term is when you are looking at \u201Crequire\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe first series of questions is around the interaction between the Regulatory Standards Board, in the context of clause 41 in Part 3, and the Regulations Review Committee. What does the Minister consider to be \u201Creasonably practicable\u201D, and also what is the scope of \u201Crequire\u201D in clause 42(1)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4a995aac70a42cdbad2dd9043147fc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4a995aac70a42cdbad2dd9043147fc7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, I usually try and take four or five questions or speeches before replying, but I just feel I should get up now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThe Hon Duncan Webb makes the point\u2014he asked why is this statutory power necessary when Cabinet minutes could issue directions for departments to share information with each other? One answer for that is that actually Cabinet has decided to introduce this legislation and express its will this way if Parliament agrees. The second, which also answers Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s question, is actually the Treasury does have very similar powers in relation to public finances. So it\u2019s also not unusual for a Government to ask the Parliament to pass such a law to administer the interactions between its own departments. This is another example of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThe amendments from Dr Duncan Webb suggesting that there should be more consultation or the Treaty of Waitangi should be taken account of, when one Government department decides to use its power to ask another department for a purpose which is set out in clause 16, which we debated in Part 2 earlier. It\u2019s not clear what benefits that Duncan Webb thinks we would get from that, and the Government is not interested in adopting the amendments that he has proposed. So we won\u2019t be doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EHe suggests that there should be limits on powers. Again, I don\u2019t want to be repetitive, but clause\u00A016 sets out the purpose of requesting this information, and clause 44, 45, and 46 all begin with the word \u201Crestriction\u201D. They set out the restrictions that are placed on the use of these powers. So we\u2019ve actually already put quite a lot of thought into how we restrict the use of these information-gathering powers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan asked at some length about the interaction of the Regulatory Standards Board with the Regulation Review Committee. I would just refer him to the extensive debate that we had on Part 2 where that issue was covered in some depth. I\u2019m not sure that it\u2019s relevant to quite a different issue here, which is the ministry\u2019s ability to request information from other departments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThen he asked about clause 41, subclause (2): what does \u201Creasonably practicable\u201D mean? This is a term that appears throughout the statute book, throughout Government papers, and what it means is exactly what it means. Is it reasonable to think that a person could do this thing? If there are clear reasons why they couldn\u2019t, it\u2019s not reasonably practicable. If there are no good reasons why you couldn\u2019t do it, then it is reasonably practicable. This is something that I think people can work out without me needing to talk about it more in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EFinally, he asked about clause 42(1). Again, I\u2019ve addressed that; see clause 16 for the purpose of doing this. There was a final point\u2014oh, sorry, I\u2019m struggling to read my own writing, but he said no other ministry has this power. Well, actually the Public Finance Act gives the Treasury\u2014and he\u2019s now nodding. He knew that already when he asked the question. So I think we\u2019re there. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u002294eeab20d30d46498335fd74bb3be05c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294eeab20d30d46498335fd74bb3be05c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you for that discussion on the overall purposes of Part 3 and clause 41. I wanted to turn to clause 42, which gives the chief executive of the Ministry for Regulation the power to require an agency to supply information. One of the things we\u2019ve heard throughout this debate is concerns around the costs of that. But also when we look at this, it\u2019s a largely unconstrained power. Most notices to produce generally have things, particularly dates. So the notice \u201Cmust state the date by which, and the manner in which, the information must be provided\u201D. Now, I\u2019m hopeful that our Government departments and the Ministry for Regulation will be reasonable and give a significant period of time, but it doesn\u2019t say that, right, or in the manner in which it must be provided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ESo, you know, we\u2019ve all got Official Information Act responses saying, \u201CThat\u2019s going to take far too long to collate and we\u2019re not putting that in a spreadsheet for you, so we\u2019re not going to provide that information.\u201D There\u2019s no such power to decline here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s my view in my Amendment Paper\u2014filed on 4 November at 12 p.m. and nine seconds\u2014and it outlines at least some constraints on that. It requires the chief executive, in making a request under clause 42(1), to take into account the costs of the agency providing that information and whether the request is, in all of the circumstances, reasonable. So it\u2019s a balancing exercise because the danger is\u2014of course, this is classic poor regulation\u2014that there\u2019s no costs on the Ministry for Regulation and asking for the information. They don\u2019t have to pay for it and there\u2019s all the costs on the other agency who is obliged to comply. Now, we do expect our public servants to act reasonably, but the incentives there go in all the wrong directions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ESo, that\u2019s why I have suggested that there is some constraint and that you can at least have a discussion and say that the request is unreasonable because we can\u2019t tabulate\u2014because this is the manner in which the information must be provided: \u201CSo please provide a tabulated spreadsheet of all of the instances of prosecutions, the provisions under which it was prosecuted, and the penalties imposed.\u201D Now, if you do that for, I don\u2019t know, the Ministry of Primary Industries, it\u2019s going to be months and months of work, and if it says that it would like that by next week, all of a sudden you\u2019re putting entirely unreasonable demands on your Public Service. So there\u2019s two things. One is that the date and time frame should be prescribed. You shouldn\u2019t just have it that the Ministry for Regulation can absolutely make up its own mind. The second thing is it\u2019s got to be reasonable. It\u2019s got to be something which isn\u2019t unduly onerous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s actually an argument to say that if you\u2019re going to do this, the cost of it should be funded or one ministry should have to pay the other ministry for the costs of compliance, but a lot of that is captured simply by the concept of reasonableness that I\u2019ve proposed in proposed clause\u00A044(5)\u2014that is, that the request is, in all of the circumstances, reasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe other thing we\u2019ve got here is this: there\u2019s no tiebreaker. In legal matters, the tiebreaker is the Crown Law Office. If two departments disagree about the law, they don\u2019t go to court and sue each other, they go to the Crown Law Office who says, \u201CLook, here\u2019s the legal position and here\u2019s our\u201D\u2014essentially\u2014\u201Cadjudication on this matter.\u201D If there\u2019s a scrap going on between the Ministry for Regulation and a department, who\u2019s the tiebreaker? What is the procedure here? Because you\u2019re going to need a dispute resolution procedure, and you don\u2019t want relationships within the Public Service to come to breaking point because either a department\u2019s unreasonably refusing information or the other department is unreasonably demanding information. So that\u2019s a pretty expansive power and I\u2019m very surprised that it isn\u2019t limited in some way. The Minister\u2019s comments would be welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u002269eca39ea6164831989d0a9775d5de42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269eca39ea6164831989d0a9775d5de42\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E I will give some very quick answers. I just note the last two contributions by Dr Duncan Webb. In the first one, he said that really none of these powers is necessary because it can be sorted out amongst Cabinet Ministers. I made the point that Cabinet has a general view and hopes the Parliament will pass a law reflecting the general view that this central agency should have power to request information. Now, Duncan Webb is saying that the Ministry for Regulation will abuse this power and run unfettered, as though he\u2019s forgotten that only a few minutes ago he was saying that of course departments are responsible to Ministers who can sort out matters amongst themselves back in Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003ESo it is possible for Cabinet and Parliament to give a general direction, but also Ministers who are responsible and who are colleagues in Cabinet to moderate the use of that power. Therefore, we don\u2019t have an interest in adopting any Opposition amendments as Government amendments in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022 data-id=\u00227a930ba1778248059e11d5a5db0ec623\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a930ba1778248059e11d5a5db0ec623\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just wanting to seek a quick call, at this stage, just to ask questions about two things. The first is the interaction between clause 41(1)\u2014and I acknowledge I\u2019m asking information around 41(1) in relation to an earlier clause, but I do want some guidance from the Minister for Regulation on this. Clause 41(1) states \u201CThis section applies when the regulatory standards Ministry reviews (in whole or in part) any regulatory system to which any legislation relates.\u201D I just wanted to check that clause 6A(1) earlier in the piece still applies, so that 41(1) does not actually, in fact, refer to \u201Cany\u201D regulatory system and \u201Cany\u201D legislation that it might relate to; that it still excludes the items that the bill says that it excludes under Schedule 1A. So I\u2019m just checking that this part of the bill doesn\u2019t trump the earlier clauses of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003EMy second question is specifically around clause 42(1), but it\u2019s also a broader question because I know that the bill uses similar language in this clause, which is the phrase \u201Cnecessary or desirable\u201D. Why has the scope been expanded to such a wide extent? I mean, I understand \u201Cnecessary\u201D, but \u201Cdesirable\u201D seems to widen that up quite substantially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003EI guess, related to that point: is there any intention to build privacy safeguards into this bill so that personal information isn\u2019t unnecessarily being hoovered up into this? Because it does confer quite sweeping powers. The chief executive of the regulatory standards ministry could simply deem it as \u201Cdesirable\u201D or \u201Cnecessary\u201D, and then request potential information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m just asking those two questions. The first is around whether clause 41(1) trumps the earlier clause\u00A06A(1), or whether clause 6A(1) still stands. The second question is around that language around \u201Cnecessary or desirable\u201D. Related to that is: what sort of privacy safeguards does the Minister envisage being potentially built into this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022735185d2ca0a4f0488ccb5ff2ee43fc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022735185d2ca0a4f0488ccb5ff2ee43fc1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll very quickly answer. I point the member to clause 6A(1), which says \u201CNothing in this Act\u201D, so clearly, from reading that, the answer to his question is actually in the paper in front of him. Then the question of whether privacy applies; well, of course, if the Ministry for Regulation was to acquire information, it would still be governed by the Privacy Act regardless of whether it got it from this mechanism or any other, so I don\u2019t see why that would change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022112751c6e1e24e4da7f8bbe783463026\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022112751c6e1e24e4da7f8bbe783463026\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I do think this is in an interesting part of the bill, because it\u2019s the most enforceable part, of course, as well. It\u2019s the only one that\u2019s not subject to the provision that we all reflected on earlier in this conversation. But, essentially, the bill\u2019s saying that while you don\u2019t need to comply with the substantive parts of the bill, you must review compliance, so it directs review of compliance, which is quite fascinating, in many ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EOther members have raised questions about the interaction with Parliament\u2019s Regulations Review Committee. My understanding is the Minister is saying a lot of it is left unsaid here, but he expects that the Minister would pay heed to whatever might be happening in these dual streams that are both potentially operating at the same time. My view\u2014I suspect, as others\u2014is that it would be better if that was specified in the legislation, and potentially within section 41.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI did have a question about what the Minister\u2019s understanding is about the scope of the power of this board to direct or to compel the production of documents and evidence versus the powers that the Regulations Review Committee currently has. Is his understanding that these powers would give this body more scope in terms of what they could obtain either by request or by a High Court order, or that they would be the same?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EMy colleague has asked a question about \u201Cdesirable\u201D and the scope of that. I\u2019d just say that I agree with that question, and whether it ought to be narrower. Dr Duncan Webb referred to section 43 and the issue of cost lying with public agencies. There\u2019s also the issue of clause 43(2)(b): that covers \u201Ca person that is engaged under a contract with a principal agency to support or facilitate the performance of a function that is imposed under legislation.\u201D So it\u2019s one layer removed, again, and the cost would likely sit with that entity\u2014a contracting entity\u2014and to what extent that the Minister believes it would be fair. I can understand provision for or requirement that the public entity itself must bear those costs. It becomes more complex when we have a contractor who\u2019s sitting underneath that public entity\u2014whether the Minister had considered differentiating between those two so that there are less stringent, or there are more criteria if you were to ask a contractor to provide information, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb has very usefully suggested some language about reasonableness or proximity to the issue that\u2019s being investigated. That seems to make sense to me. That, again, probably speaks to the issue about \u201Cnecessary\u201D versus \u201Cdesirable\u201D, but a two-tiered system, in my view, would make sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe restriction on giving notice in connection with Parliament: there\u2019s, of course, the listed exclusions there. My understanding\u2014I could be wrong\u2014is that the Office of the Clerk does have some obligations under the Official Information Act, which are different from the other parts of Parliament; and whether the Minister considered that some of these document requirement rules ought to apply to the Office of the Clerk even if they weren\u2019t to apply to the other entities, as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EJust clarifying, as well, that the Minister\u2019s view is that, if information is passed on, and it does include information that falls under the Privacy Act, that entity would be responsible for notifying the individuals concerned; or is that the Minister\u2019s view that the board would have that obligation under the Privacy Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EFinally, just asking out of curiosity whether the Minister had considered specifying withholding grounds, as well? So other than the kind of blanket reference to other legislation, whether the Minister considered that there were other grounds that may be a justifiable limit on disclosure\u2014so framing them as withholding grounds as opposed to a threshold, as Dr Duncan Webb has suggested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002269b2de4a90a040bea98d197024ec7f29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269b2de4a90a040bea98d197024ec7f29\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have further questions for the Minister, but I wanted to clarify, I think, two points that the Minister mentioned. First of all, I actually didn\u2019t know that Treasury is one such agency. It was the Minister\u2019s earlier response to the Hon Dr Duncan Webb in the same block of answers that the Minister gave that I was like, \u201COh, I did not know that. That\u2019s good to know.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe second point I was going to make is that the difference between why we are discussing the Regulations Review Committee now as opposed to what was discussed last week is that last week, the report on the briefing on regulatory reform was not publicly available, and it is now publicly available. As a major stakeholder in a lot of these, I thought it was important to address the report that just came out of the Regulations Review Committee. The Regulations Review Committee, in the report, says, \u201Cwe remain concerned about the constitutional implication of the potential for overlap between the board and our committee.\u201D Last week it was theoretical but now, from the board itself, it\u2019s more concrete.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIn terms of my questions, I want to now move on to clause 43 and also clause 44. The first question I have, in terms of clause 43, is around clause 43(2). It\u2019s important that, in the earlier legislation, local government has been sort of alluded to as part of this, where information, for example, could be requested or would need to fulfil certain requirements. I think we talked briefly about one of the schedules around local bills, but I don\u2019t know, unless it fulfils the requirement of, I guess, a Public Service agency or a maker of secondary legislation, perhaps. Would the Minister articulate which of, I guess, subparagraphs (i) to (iv) under clause 43(2)(a) is where local government potentially falls under, because I think that\u2019s potentially quite an important point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMy next question is around clause 43(3), because here it says, \u201CA notice must state the date by which, and the manner in which, the information must be provided.\u201D Now, on the surface, there\u2019s no problem with that. However, there\u2019s no safeguard in terms of what that date potentially could be. The thing is, when there\u2019s no safeguard around the date, it means that the date could be as long or as short as what the chief executive of the regulatory standards ministry may determine. I would like to ask the Minister to consider my amendment on this, which is, rather than saying \u201Cthe date\u201D, it is \u201Ca date\u201D that is reasonably practicable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister has mentioned previously\u2014thank you for his response to my earlier question on \u201Creasonably practicable\u201D as something that is consistently used throughout this bill. I will ask the Minister to seriously consider this amendment, because I think something like that would provide just enough safeguards. That way, agencies or a maker of secondary legislation or anyone isn\u2019t going to be frantically trying to gather information because the regulatory standards ministry decided arbitrarily that the date is two days, without any specific requirement or consideration for the scope of what they\u2019re asking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EMy final question is around clause 44(b), which is around the definition of an Office of Parliament. Now, I did have a look at the Public Finance Act 1989 and Office of Parliament is specifically limited to the Ombudsman, the Controller and Auditor-General, and the Commissioner for the Environment. However, it doesn\u2019t include other things like, for example, the Commissioner of Mana Mokopuna, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, the reason I mention some of these commissioners is very specific and potentially quite niche. Under certain international requirements\u2014and I\u2019m thinking of OPCAT, which is the Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture\u2014there are five national preventative mechanisms that we have here in Aotearoa. Now, the Ombudsman is one of them, but there are another four. I wanted to check whether there should be a restriction being placed on the other four national preventative mechanisms that allows for this sort of exemption on giving notice in connection with Parliament, because of the fact that they fulfil a very specific and very important role under international convention. Those are my three questions, on clauses 43(2), 43(3), and 44(b).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022af0a5176298c4db9b557db48019bd0e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af0a5176298c4db9b557db48019bd0e4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just taking Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s questions first, the Regulatory Review Committee\u2019s report may well have been released since we last met on this topic. However, there will be commentary, including from parliamentary committees, on this legislation and matters that it affects for a long time, I suspect. I would still point to the debate that we\u2019ve had quite extensively over that overlap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThe question of where local government fits: under clause 43(2)(a), it could be either subparagraph (ii) or subparagraph (iii). A local government can be an administrator of secondary legislation\u2014by-laws are secondary legislation\u2014but also a maker of that because by-laws are secondary legislation under the Legislation Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EIn terms of the date amendment for what is reasonably practicable, the Government will not adopt that amendment, for the simple reason that \u201Creasonably practicable\u201D is a term in good use that is well understood within Government administration. Making dates, actually, in a way, adds additional complication because they can be seen as arbitrary and then you have to argue about whether the date was reasonable, rather than just saying the time that it\u2019s done should be reasonably practicable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThen there was a question of whether there should be exemptions for other \u201Cpreventative mechanisms\u201D; that was under clause 44(b). In my view, the purpose of this exemption for Parliament and its various Officers is simply to ensure that the sovereignty of Parliament is not in any way affected by this law. I have been very clear through all of this that the purpose of the law is to increase the accountability of the executive to Parliament, not to undermine Parliament\u2019s sovereignty. Having achieved that purpose, we wouldn\u2019t go further. You could argue that the Clerk of the House should be exempted from the exemption, or not exempted. However, the Clerk of the House is not really a regulator that puts restrictions on how New Zealanders live their lives. He\u2019s an official within Parliament, so I don\u2019t think there\u2019s any problem with him being exempted from the Ministry for Regulation\u2019s use of these powers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters asked about the power of the committee vis-\u00E0-vis the Regulations Review Committee. These powers technically aren\u2019t vested in the Regulatory Standards Board but, rather, the ministry, although it is true that the ministry does act as a form of secretariat to the board. Regardless, her question was about the power of a select committee, which has all of Parliament\u2019s privileges, versus a committee with statutory powers that might be upheld by a court. I\u2019m sure she would probably know more about the comparative powers of those than I would, but, suffice to say, they\u2019re both things that people in general should follow and observe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EShe asked about clause 43(2)(b). This is the idea of a person who has a contract with a principal agency and the question of, well, if you contract, should you be exempt or included as if you were a central agency yourself? Should you have to provide information in these cases? I think, first of all, it\u2019s important to say that it\u2019s only if they are performing a function that is imposed under legislation. What we have in mind is a regulatory function there. Second of all, I\u2019d just go back to the point I\u2019ve made a few times now that these powers can be used only for the purpose of carrying out a sector or a regulatory review or compiling a report on the state of regulatory systems. By the time you have that specific purpose for using the powers at all, and the limitation to people who carry out a function, then I think you find that power is a bit more circumscribed than it might seem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EFinally, there was a question of the Privacy Act: should an agency notify someone that the information has been requested? Again, this doesn\u2019t alter the obligations that any agency has under the Privacy Act. The information is not leaving the public sector. It is still with an agency that has the same obligations as the agency that originally had it. I wouldn\u2019t view there as being a need for a notification in that sense, because the Ministry for Regulation is part of the public sector. The Privacy Act is applicable, so it\u2019s not material that it\u2019s with a different agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u002218910daafc30425c87dfe1623ab851e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218910daafc30425c87dfe1623ab851e0\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll just whip through a few of my Amendment Papers. Some of the issues have been raised, so I don\u2019t want to dwell on them, and then I\u2019ll get to some material around clause 44. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EIt is interesting: the Minister seemed to suggest that there weren\u2019t going to be many private agencies that administer regulations. As I thought about that, I thought of Serco, that administers a prison, which is just a raft of regulations. If the ministry were to inquire into how the regulations around prisons worked, and asked Serco to provide reports on all of its investigations, inquiries, complaints, and what have you, at no cost, that would, essentially, be rewriting the contract with Serco, which is an unusual thing for the ACT Party to advocate. That\u2019s why my Amendment Paper, essentially, does a little contractual amendment. It allows for a private agency, a contractor, to charge a reasonable cost because it would seem to me that it\u2019s not good form for Parliament to impair the property rights conferred by contract and require them to supply information which wasn\u2019t previously required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EIn terms of clause 43 and the time limits, my suggestion, in another Amendment Paper, filed on 4\u00A0November at 12.20 p.m., is simply to say \u201Cwithin 20 working days\u201D, which is the Official Information Act (OIA) framework. I think it would be really useful to have that guidance. I\u2019ll skip over that one because it\u2019s being talked about. The other thing is this: I\u2019ve proposed in clause 43 to insert a new subclause (2A), which says the chief executive of the regulatory standards ministry may exercise the power under section 43 only if it is consistent with the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure, whether it\u2019s a person, or property, or correspondence, or otherwise\u2014because this is a search power; let\u2019s get it right\u2014particularly if it\u2019s a private agency. This is a power to demand the production of private information. It might be that it\u2019s done in the discharge of a contract, and it might be that it\u2019s done in the discharge of a statutory power, but it\u2019s a search. Let\u2019s be upfront about this. This amounts to a search and there\u2019s no rights analysis here of the balancing of privacy, the right to freedom from an arbitrary search, and the right to demand this information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI wanted to turn to clause 44, which is the exclusions. There\u2019s two questions I have. The first is actually just about exclusions generally, if this doesn\u2019t affect the general law. This is a very clear question, and it is this: are OIA grounds for refusal under this power? They fall into two categories: absolute, national security being the archetype; and kind of not absolute, which are things like privacy, commercial interests\u2014too expensive to collate. So do those grounds apply here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the kind of general exclusion question. The particular exclusion question goes to two other classes of people. One is members of Parliament. Now, as members of Parliament, we may not be an agency, but nevertheless we are part of this institution which has regulatory powers. If we\u2019re excluding the House of Representatives, which I struggle to see how it\u2019s an agency as well, actually, shouldn\u2019t we be excluding members of Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe other one, which I\u2019m surprised isn\u2019t in there because it kind of smacks you right between the eyes when you think about it, is the Governor-General\u2014the regulator-in-chief\u2014who actually passes and, by executive order, authorises almost all of these regulations. Why isn\u2019t the Governor-General exempt from the power in terms of her, or his, information around how regulation works and how regulation-making powers are exercised, in particular? This might be interesting information, but in terms of the Crown prerogative and her being the domestic embodiment of the Sovereign, that would be a very unusual thing indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ESo a few issues there. Interested in your views on the power to charge, if you\u2019re Serco, but also the exclusions, I think, are an important part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9563e1997ea488bab64043c4fff51f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9563e1997ea488bab64043c4fff51f9\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister for Regulation for those initial responses. I am a little bit concerned about his response to the question about third-party notifications. My understanding would be that there is a notification requirement; I\u2019m trying to think of the Privacy Act changes that have gone all the way through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223af9645bad0a4d24b1be81e6625333b7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Which clause is the member referring to, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244f8d9410c024e3981b553f4028b2c8a\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. So this is third-party notifications\u2014where was I? So it\u2019s the power to obtain information to enable the review, so it really connects to clause 43, but also connects to clause 45, restrictions on requiring information from non - public service agencies\u2014so individuals\u2014and clause 43(2)(b) was the one I was specifically referring to, where a person is engaged under the contract. The Minister\u2019s comment was that because it would be across the public service, the information wouldn\u2019t be shared outside of public entities. However, my understanding of the changes to the Privacy Act is that a notification would still be required. I was just making the point that there\u2019s obviously a cost associated with that as well. So I\u2019m just asking whether that is intended that this would be an additional burden and cost that\u2019s put on those entities as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EIn terms of a clause 46, I just wanted to know whether it was the Minister\u2019s intention to include former contractors? This is something I was thinking about in terms of what the Regulations Review Committee could do, because it can, obviously, look at any regulation-making power, and could look at situations where an entity had been contracted to deliver a service, but then that contract had ended and a new contract had begun. The parliamentary committee could easily look at the former contract as well. My question was around whether it was the Minister\u2019s intent for the board not to be able to look at a former contract, and, if so, what the rationale for that was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EBut also, the trigger for enabling a person who\u2019s engaged under a contract to have information sought from them seems to me to be a little unusual. So in clause 46(2)(a), one of the options is that the principal agency has been asked to supply the information, but has been unable to supply the information within a reasonable time. I guess I\u2019m just worried that if you have a department that\u2019s dragging its heels, or for whatever reason doesn\u2019t meet that time deadline, the obligation\u2014and we\u2019ve talked about the burden of the cost that would fall on that contracting party\u2014would then be moved to the contracting party. So what I\u2019m wondering is whether there\u2019s potentially some language within paragraph\u00A0(2)(a), where it can be clear that reasonable efforts have been made, or it is a last resort type of option. Paragraph (2)(b) I can understand; it feels like if there is information that the public entity simply doesn\u2019t hold, that would be a very valid reason for seeking it from a third-party contractor. However, it feels to me that we must pursue those within the public space first, to avoid the burden falling onto contracted parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u00220c9bced1681c4b9692242e013ba32a0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c9bced1681c4b9692242e013ba32a0f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to move on a little bit, not too far, to clause 44\u2014actually no; let\u2019s go to clause 45. This is about a non - Public Service agency, which is the most kind of perplexing and unusual power when you\u2019re talking about a regulatory inquiry, to be able to go and just demand of someone who\u2019s under contract that they produce information. As the Minister pointed out earlier, clause 45 starts with the word \u201CRestriction\u201D but it doesn\u2019t really restrict anything. It just gives some procedural notes and, in particular, subclause (2) states, \u201CThe chief executive of the regulatory standards Ministry may exercise the power under section 43 only if they have first consulted the relevant chief executive.\u201D I mean\u2014really?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EIf you take the Serco example, the chief executive of Regulation consults the chief executive of Corrections, and then they go and demand a raft of information from Serco, their contractor. Now, that consultation is meaningless. They don\u2019t have to consult with the agency they\u2019re about to demand information from. My amendment actually says that it doesn\u2019t place an unreasonable burden. Following the words \u201Cconsulted the relevant chief executive\u201D it inserts the words \u201Cand there is no more appropriate way to obtain the information.\u201D A lot of that information is likely held elsewhere, and, in fact, it is referred to elsewhere in this legislation but it isn\u2019t clearly set out that there\u2019s a hierarchy whereby you\u2019ve got to go to your Government agency first and then\u2014and only if you need additional information\u2014can you go to your citizen contractor, who, in the contract, isn\u2019t expected to and isn\u2019t paid to provide all this addition information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ESo it does seem reasonable to me to say, \u201CWell, look, even if you don\u2019t accept the amendment that they can charge for doing additional work that\u2019s not in the contract, at least this is a residual power, one that isn\u2019t exercised as a first resort\u2014because, of course, that\u2019s the danger, isn\u2019t it. You consult with the chief executive of Corrections and you get the response, \u201COh, gosh, my crew at Corrections is pretty much under the thumb. Why don\u2019t you ask it from our private contractors because they\u2019re obliged to under the legislation and it doesn\u2019t then fall on the Public Service.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ESo, again, this is about incentives. There are some real risks in there. So that\u2019s the amendment I\u2019m proposing to clause 45. I did suggest an amendment to clause 44 as well, which was filed at 12.52, which really, again, limits the power. It says that the chief executive of the regulatory standards ministry may exercise the power under section 43 only if it\u2019s consistent with the right to be secure against unreasonable search and seizure, and so on. So it\u2019s a reflection of the earlier proposed amendment but it\u2019s new and different because it\u2019s a much broader note on the restriction of those powers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI\u2019d be very interested in the kind of hierarchy of demand and whether the Minister would be amenable to making sure, when you\u2019re demanding information from a non - Public Service agency, as to whether that\u2019s only going to be in the case where there\u2019s no more appropriate way to obtain that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u00226014563faaea4212a9a15eff95ad61e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226014563faaea4212a9a15eff95ad61e5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to address a few questions, starting with Vanushi Walters\u2014the question about former contractors, whether the Regulations Review Committee has that power. With the legislation, the trick is in the word \u201Cis\u201D\u2014\u201Cis engaged under a contract\u201D\u2014so a person that used to be engaged under a contract would not fulfil that. I hope that addresses her concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EShe then raised a question, which Duncan Webb carried on, about why the contractor is seen as the last resort or has less protection; if I can address that. I noted Dr Duncan Webb asking whether an organisation like Serco would face punitive or undeliverable demands for information. I thought that was interesting\u2014the Labour Party\u2019s new-found concern for Serco\u2014but my answer was actually given earlier: just because this power exists for a ministry, to use it under legislation, a ministry still has a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons for informing the chief executive of the other department is so that Ministers can talk and say, \u201CWell, is your department really acting in the best interests of the Government when they do this?\u201D Yes, the Government has asked Parliament to pass this law to express a general intent, but departments will share information with the Ministry for Regulation, but that doesn\u2019t mean that it is a completely unfettered power. Ministers are still in charge of their departments and can intervene if they feel it\u2019s necessary. I don\u2019t think we need to worry about powers being taken to absurd extents, so long as, of course, the Government has competent Ministers, which I am sure it will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThat means that we will not entertain the tabled amendment on clause 43 that was introducing time limits or requiring 20 working days, as the member has suggested. He then asked whether there should be exclusions like the Official Information Act. Well, no, this is a central agency within the Government asking for information from another department. It doesn\u2019t involve a person outside the Crown asking for information from withinside the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EIn relation to the Privacy Act, which Vanushi Walters raised, I may have misled or misspoken when I said there wouldn\u2019t be any need for any notifications. I didn\u2019t mean to say that notifications currently required when a department transfers information from one department to another would be somehow wiped. I meant to say that the requirements of the Privacy Act for handling information would continue as they are today, regardless of the mechanism of transfer; whether the department transferred information to satisfy this requirement as opposed to any other that they might have. I hope that addresses the members\u2019 questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022 data-id=\u00223e62778ba12748159e8a25ef0af86d12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e62778ba12748159e8a25ef0af86d12\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (Whip\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7865c57ea5b434eaab44e80c8dc546c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s a small section that hasn\u2019t been addressed in this part, so I\u2019ll just see if anyone attends to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022f56f4ade4f2b4bf6ba400b9db3779b3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f56f4ade4f2b4bf6ba400b9db3779b3e\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I\u2019m going to address a follow-up question for the Minister for Regulation on clause 43(2)(b), but I\u2019m going to then move on to clause 45 and then clause 47. So in terms of 43(2)(b)\u2014and this is in response to Vanushi Walters\u2019 question around contractors. Now, just using the Official Information Act (OIA) examples that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb mentioned before, I wondered if a person that is engaged under contract, whether you are also going to be seeing circumstances where the response from that is that it\u2019s commercially sensitive, because, again, a lot of OIAs\u2014particularly when it comes to contractors\u2014often come back saying that the OIA is rejected on that basis. I just want to check with the Minister if that has been a consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIn terms of clause 45(2), just a very short question for the Minister. When he says the chief executive\u2014\u201Csection 43 only if they have first consulted the relevant chief executive.\u201D\u2014I wondered if \u201Cfirst consulted\u201D would also imply received approval from. The reason I ask this is I do have an amendment on this particular part because I think it does add reassurance that the consultation needs to also have the approval from the relevant chief executive. Otherwise, they could just consult, but if the other chief executive says no, they\u2019ve done the consultation anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFinally, in terms of clause 47(1), I do have a very short question. This is the important clause of failing to comply with a notice. I understand this is a safeguard measure, but has the Minister received any advice on how likely it is that something like this would happen? Are there any sort of other comparables, for example, using the OIA or anything else; whether we\u2019re going to be seeing quite a substantial or drastic or even a reasonable increase in terms of the pressure that\u2019s going to be added on to the High Court and High Court judges when it comes to a failure to comply notice. That\u2019s all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6219dd5f6ee4fe6abbca2fc516605a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6219dd5f6ee4fe6abbca2fc516605a3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Can I quickly address the question about clause 43(2)(b). The member asked if this is like the Official Information Act (OIA) where information could be withheld because it\u2019s commercially sensitive. This is not an OIA. The Ministry for Regulation is a central agency within the Government. It has the ability to request this information under the law because it too is bound by the kind of confidentiality that is required to deal with commercial sensitivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThe question was whether we would consider amending the bill so that the information could only be supplied if the chief executive of the department it was asked for from agreed to provide the information. Now, if you had to get them to agree, then there would be no point in having this whole section of the bill that we\u2019ve been debating for the last hour, because they could already ask for information and get them to voluntarily agree without passing this law, or this part of it. That\u2019s definitely not an amendment that we will adopt because, frankly, it\u2019s silly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EOn clause 47, whether we have any advice on how likely it is that this matter will fall under adjudication: no, we don\u2019t, but it would seem extremely unlikely. It would seem to be a backstop rather than something you would expect to frequently occur, because Ministers who are in charge of departments have an incentive to ensure that the public spectacle of their departments suing each other is not apparent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022d54b540633444af68b391bb789c2e440\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d54b540633444af68b391bb789c2e440\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I can tell you, before I take another call, that there is no part of this part that has not already been covered. If you\u2019ve got something unique to the debate, I\u2019m happy to take another call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u002244ffd82f25774122bda96b0632b941fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244ffd82f25774122bda96b0632b941fd\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to talk about a clause that nobody has talked about tonight, and that is clause 47, which talks about the powers of the High Court. One of the difficulties is it kind of falls short. I\u2019ve actually got two Amendment Papers in, in respect of this clause, both filed at about 12.20 p.m. on 4 November. One is doing it light and the other\u2019s doing it a bit more thoroughly, so I\u2019ll talk about the one that does it more thoroughly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe difficulty is that the power here, or the direction here, is that if someone doesn\u2019t comply with the notice, the ministry can go to the court and the court can then make an order on any terms that it thinks fit\u2014if it\u2019s satisfied that the information is necessary and desirable\u2014but it doesn\u2019t, essentially, do the flip side. My Amendment Paper does two things: first of all, it says the court can set aside the notice, so it makes it clear that the court has the power to make one of two orders: comply with the notice and do it like this, within this time, and in this way; or that was a silly notice, you don\u2019t have to comply with it at all. Essentially, the court may set aside the notice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe other thing is this, and Minister, I think this is actually a relatively useful clause\u2014it would be new clause 47A: any person who receives a notice can themselves go to the court. So any person who receives a notice under this part may, within 20 days of the service of that notice, apply for an Order of the High Court setting the notice aside. You could have people go, \u201CThat\u2019s a silly notice. I\u2019m not required. This isn\u2019t necessary.\u201D That requires the ministry itself to then, essentially, prosecute, if you like, the notice in the High Court. It would be a lot cleaner if someone could simply say, \u201CLook, we don\u2019t consider ourselves obliged, so we\u2019re going to the court to seek clarity on that.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThen, the court can do all of the things it could otherwise have done, which is set the notice aside or say, \u201CNo, that is a legitimate notice; comply with it in full.\u201D, or anything in between: \u201CIt is a bit silly because it asks for seven days; you\u2019ve got 60 days, because it\u2019s a big notice.\u201D; or \u201CIt\u2019s far too expansive; you can comply with the notice in a much narrower class of information.\u201D; or \u201CIt\u2019s asked you to do something which is entirely unreasonable. It\u2019s not your job to collate and sort information; that\u2019s the job of the ministry who\u2019s undertaking the review.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003ESo that kind of power, importantly, probably falls within it if the ministry goes to the court, but not if the person who is subject to the notice goes to the court. So that\u2019s actually a very reasonable Amendment Paper, which clarifies the court\u2019s powers and actually truncates the timeline because the person subject to the notice doesn\u2019t have to sit on their hands and wait with bated breath to see whether the ministry decides whether or not to go and seek that court order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u00223ca4ce887e924f4991ac44153a1c52ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ca4ce887e924f4991ac44153a1c52ce\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Can I very quickly address this. I\u2019ve had members of the Government benches suggesting that Dr Duncan Webb is actually trying to audition for a role on the Regulatory Standards Board, which I find an interesting proposition, but, at this point, I\u2019m not very persuaded, because he asked whether the court should be told in legislation that it can set aside an application. The court can already do that. Even a dumb engineer like me can read it and say that the court may make the order\u2014so that implies that the court doesn\u2019t have to make the order\u2014meaning it could set it aside. There\u2019s no need for more verbiage to spell that out; the law should be as succinct as possible, if not more succinct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThen he asked whether there should be a sort of Mexican stand-off where the recipient of the request for information could actually go to court and say that they don\u2019t want to answer. That, I think, is bureaucracy in the absurd and not something that the Government will entertain, nor the previous tabled amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266d6872f24ce4f77ba5ac75f0fc62c76\u0022 data-id=\u0022943b7f0cc21d49cf98680fad6876d0b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266d6872f24ce4f77ba5ac75f0fc62c76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022943b7f0cc21d49cf98680fad6876d0b5\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e63e786a27d54b9485453aef8a8a1754\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022b62b48aaffaf48c3b1cc54a8e424232a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b62b48aaffaf48c3b1cc54a8e424232a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Amendment Paper 427 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022798e75805cbf4a9b893dd3a4698109ff\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022be20be832b034766a3f0be3e76d8b6f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be20be832b034766a3f0be3e76d8b6f7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new clause 41A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220c98665b00c1477ca9fce41a910d35f1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022c772cb6b5da849818158e3267de9f277\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c772cb6b5da849818158e3267de9f277\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Francisco Hernandez\u2019s tabled amendment deleting clauses 42 to 47 is ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 42 inserting new subclause (5) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002251059b05fb3e4accb39b4518c1abd7dd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022804f4459a2234cdc9e4b2bd5c7a6f9b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022804f4459a2234cdc9e4b2bd5c7a6f9b0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 43(1) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022160ffb77ee744f2db7a69b6962df7fd5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4fb5157ac184128a35fd41de4bdb151\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4fb5157ac184128a35fd41de4bdb151\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 42, inserting new subclause (5) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226df2723193664191b463e7a7475da44b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002239e13b1b647448dc9460476fb6d57078\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239e13b1b647448dc9460476fb6d57078\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 43(2)(a), deleting subparagraph (iv) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002225a96ec5c7be44aaa3c5a2bd486d30f5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002293f97bc0a1d8413fb611a01c6c6dad0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293f97bc0a1d8413fb611a01c6c6dad0d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 43, inserting new subclause (2A) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ed3108ca974d4a09a789131d621c9e66\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002231319730304d44ec8755fcec4be624f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231319730304d44ec8755fcec4be624f0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 43(3), replacing \u201Cthe date\u201D with \u201Ca date that is reasonably practicable\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e3a8a5a330cd45bd9b358b6dafae1cb2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9bb98a04e624a80b9ee48141201d674\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9bb98a04e624a80b9ee48141201d674\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 44, inserting new paragraph (e) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022872d05ea779b44e5801853abab6463e2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00222f3dd0720dbd4a3dab3bc5ec5d906a65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f3dd0720dbd4a3dab3bc5ec5d906a65\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 44, inserting new subclause (2A) is ruled out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 45(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a95b786eb9f14a6299811735dffe6676\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022b160b954c222463b96117b93e78abed9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b160b954c222463b96117b93e78abed9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 45(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a5a8d3690f0d409cae713cae0ed10c8a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd2792755808410ba774419ec0dd337b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd2792755808410ba774419ec0dd337b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause 47 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002274306ede698841f49397cb682155e83f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00224ad458981f064dd4ad1ab4b1ad448522\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ad458981f064dd4ad1ab4b1ad448522\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 47, inserting new subclause (3) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229e1b51e2fc82423582a9e1edc4a6dbc9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002277d2cab4e7d946e1956e6a5973621173\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277d2cab4e7d946e1956e6a5973621173\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new clause 47A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022511ed28ade8d42deb0e6a8e693b6f600\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227c16738a985441ae9ec94c49f488b210\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022562f38493f184150a8e00a364f7bb602\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022562f38493f184150a8e00a364f7bb602\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 3 be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022060e2d7791d34e7cb446887e3427328c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00220861c75627934aa08c524fee62ad73ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220861c75627934aa08c524fee62ad73ec\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment deleting clause 4 be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222098f0631e924b30b670e5bec5e58285\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002271ff0ca46092420aa486452264c7972d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271ff0ca46092420aa486452264c7972d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment deleting clause 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f454be00274b45b3b95756ab6f233265\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00229c64295fe4a64fd782fae9d32fa6b69d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c64295fe4a64fd782fae9d32fa6b69d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c283a1e00ead4ac49b8401858f183d3a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3cb85dee8664e3e957b1ef91ba77eb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3cb85dee8664e3e957b1ef91ba77eb8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 1A set out on Amendment Paper 427 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002213273d04b6474850a6c4fd87b2864725\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7350cd301ea47ad8d8e6ca5a67f235e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7350cd301ea47ad8d8e6ca5a67f235e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to Part 1, deleting item 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b6c8becd86514dd8bc9c4115da491934\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022f22ee57a4f104a3589d6bb51ff5352b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f22ee57a4f104a3589d6bb51ff5352b6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to Part 1, inserting new item 10 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b2f0ebb8cc1a45478c8ae660cab562fb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7a45134183b4b8fabd1cca99f5bc536\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7a45134183b4b8fabd1cca99f5bc536\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to Part 2, inserting new item 10 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022345a4210daf247448e43e008795fe2f7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022bda0d4d85b6b483fa764ece3a8ce5af9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bda0d4d85b6b483fa764ece3a8ce5af9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 1A as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002237216900c6d1405791e7347aee64f747\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1A as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1A as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022f07cd3c9d36845f4a11375503a63e4bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f07cd3c9d36845f4a11375503a63e4bc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Schedule\u00A02 set out on Amendment Paper 427 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ed4fd0b461a4451b97820701d254e099\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00228dab5d6d8e944796bcde2a65495f9ec4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dab5d6d8e944796bcde2a65495f9ec4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new clause 1AA be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221952bbbdd35e4f2a8b5ae536274d9c0c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022977c0211b10342eca2b492e3ec70b736\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022977c0211b10342eca2b492e3ec70b736\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 3, inserting new subclause (3) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d4f60178ad6b4072bf7cd514d3cd0108\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002237b4969bedb54a488a0d2fd985551a45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237b4969bedb54a488a0d2fd985551a45\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002230e9e3078e81442680fe67611b9ec424\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022049733da87ae4672a4beba51564559a4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Ehat the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting new subclause (3) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022a54a38a4b4bc453bbf3fb8b46f954e36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a54a38a4b4bc453bbf3fb8b46f954e36\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00220fa1eb79eb0a4205b75a1e52101abc8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fa1eb79eb0a4205b75a1e52101abc8f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7, inserting new subclause (2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222837b7aa17324990b516bc08680214d4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00222e4a9d28515c4b3699b0080d686c1a87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e4a9d28515c4b3699b0080d686c1a87\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment replacing clause 8 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223ffa797b68334973b0f3d995be62af32\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022002577948c5a4fdcbf9e16a781acb3e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022002577948c5a4fdcbf9e16a781acb3e2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new clause 9A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022362e14a1002a4050a5da33632fab3936\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcdc7236d7a04ff5b14e7dd8f064bffa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcdc7236d7a04ff5b14e7dd8f064bffa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 10, inserting new subclause (6) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221a9a0662dc8a48829f95fff10aa7ba9f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022c172166f92cb4eb08285018a2ddb2253\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c172166f92cb4eb08285018a2ddb2253\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 16 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002236bfaa20584645e7b6c813daa0acc0e2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022103387520bde406085cb932e67a151f6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222851be7861a84619a8c27aa717306ca4\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc726d31c4e54656919a941c2734ebfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc726d31c4e54656919a941c2734ebfd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc204d01ea26440e8e71d0963e655c08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc204d01ea26440e8e71d0963e655c08\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll briefly describe that the Regulatory Standards Act is the name of the Act. The Government has no intention of entertaining any of the alternative names that members have proposed, entertaining and hopeful as some of them may be. We are happy with our own name for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003ESecondly, the commencement says that the Act comes into force on 1 January 2026. That is Part\u00A01 and Part 3, which set out the purpose and interpretation of the bill, and, in the case of Part 3, the powers that we\u2019ve been debating tonight for the purposes of obtaining information, reporting, and doing regulatory reviews. However, Part 2 comes into force on a date no later than 1 July 2026. This is what is set out in the subclauses of clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThe reason for the delay of up to six months is to provide time for the Government to issue guidance\u2014which is required under, I think, clause 27\u2014to also appoint the Regulatory Standards Board, and to prepare ministries for adhering to the Act and administering it. We don\u2019t believe that there is any need for debate on those timelines. We\u2019re very confident that all of the things required for Part 2 to come into force can be done within the time frames set out, along with the flexibility of it being up to six months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u00220079709aaa214c4b8385a054dfd247b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220079709aaa214c4b8385a054dfd247b1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It may come as a surprise, but I have some amendments on this, and one of them actually suggests that we title this Act\u2014and this isn\u2019t a joke title; it\u2019s actually quite a serious title\u2014the \u201CRegulatory Constitution Act 2025\u201D. There are two reasons for that. One is that it actually reflects what this piece of legislation will do, which is change the very structure of our constitution in New Zealand, and it will change the way in which the organs of Government work with and speak to each other. In fact, you know, if we go back and see the history\u2014in New Zealand, at least\u2014of this bill, you\u2019ll see that it really started with a paper by Richard Epstein in April 2000 called \u201CTowards a Regulatory Constitution\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e15a70697aa043f2b63bc072fa9fae06\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Great guy. I met him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d474942283a84e8abfc3dd2caafc93f5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014I even read stuff like that. Of course, that was commissioned by the New Zealand Business Roundtable\u2014now the New Zealand Initiative\u2014which really just tells you what you\u2019ve got in front of you here. So for two reasons: one, call it the \u201CRegulatory Constitution Act\u201D, because it is about a shift in how Government works, and that\u2019s what constitutional law is about. It\u2019s appropriate to recognise that, but also, it\u2019s appropriate to recognise where it came from. This legislation came from libertarian philosophy in the United States, adopted and promoted by the Business Roundtable, and that\u2019s exactly how we\u2019ve got to where we are today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThere you go. Let\u2019s be a bit upfront. It\u2019s still a serious title: \u201CRegulatory Constitution Act 2025\u201D. I\u2019m surprised that the Minister won\u2019t entertain anything. He hasn\u2019t been very entertaining all night, which is a bit of a pity. There is plenty more of those amendments, but I\u2019ll do them one at a time. So I\u2019ll come back to my next one in my next contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f555ad1eab864f4082da934834588af8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270ed52c2243745f285c14a2d3413a86a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f555ad1eab864f4082da934834588af8\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226c1d2485a68e45fd8a97a45acdc869d2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022825169a08c614d7fa2c602c03c23241a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022825169a08c614d7fa2c602c03c23241a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1, replacing \u201CRegulatory Standards\u201D with \u201CLawmaking Procedures\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022eca2ea340639417687b972ac1eda40f6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002215191c6da95d4ea68f37112f8e44c611\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215191c6da95d4ea68f37112f8e44c611\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1, inserting \u201C(Right to Personal Property Rights)\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222bb9d40668b24857a67a0c2260a01543\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00228ec206085a174762a740c0c52bb7d95c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ec206085a174762a740c0c52bb7d95c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1, replacing \u201CStandards\u201D with \u201CConstitution\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224d2cb9df8f2f419fb79bcea6372850e3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1d134c4b2b14029bf000a036a6680cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1d134c4b2b14029bf000a036a6680cd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s remaining six tabled amendments to clause 1 are ruled out of order as not being an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u2019s six tabled amendments to clause 1 are ruled out of order as not being an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cb08e96ce3fa437883a354935917c918\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00220e16682a7a0f4e6e8b2a38fd2068ce80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e16682a7a0f4e6e8b2a38fd2068ce80\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment replacing clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a40e9125651f4dc2b46a62052856e4b4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022f52ea38de7de4f67a9760d75d72435f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f52ea38de7de4f67a9760d75d72435f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Francisco Hernandez\u2019s tabled amendment replacing clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228827a34938b14cb28e7de72c60816ac8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022716a531654644f5b8c3c483bd99eb33b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022716a531654644f5b8c3c483bd99eb33b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2, replacing subclause (1) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228d9c8b00c8b345c29acc6a8afe4a6f9f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9ad4bf0b085416ca46c75bce145e7cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9ad4bf0b085416ca46c75bce145e7cf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2, replacing subclause (2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227af7c712ed7342f58d01be6b2311baee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u00220753fa2548f44521a3950d792522b71d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220753fa2548f44521a3950d792522b71d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause 2(3) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002271e4b62bbfc3400fb0a5cbccb30ed6a6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226f1da98822a642c7a8622c42d9ef5922\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000816\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000817\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022563181c8547846c2960cd19219dead94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022563181c8547846c2960cd19219dead94\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Regulatory Standards Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd5b4c9357f94e4fb70e0f777e5fa1c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd5b4c9357f94e4fb70e0f777e5fa1c3\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading next sitting day. The time has come for me to leave the chair. The House will resume at 9 a.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10.08 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20251111408b96e6cbe24534bfe4dfd0a0ca31cf000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f252056926b40bdb576e06596b4a3e0\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ed21e0e1c2345ae89cc42e1255514a5\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 12 November 2025)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a134ed6a38f4e7995b59277a65468b2\u0022\u003EMedicines Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022301df3deac41484f83a6d6419dabc613\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u0022544f67b13a724fdca909cb930cf03ccf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022544f67b13a724fdca909cb930cf03ccf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Medicines Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3bf75ee327141dba13b5c2511fa1d28\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022057515ed1090466c8c5320a0d49872b1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Medicines Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EToday, we bring the Medicines Amendment Bill to its third and final reading\u2014a bill that is about improving access to medicines, trusting expertise, and delivering better health outcomes for New Zealanders. It is also about politicians listening to concerns about the community, formulating solutions, and staying the course until they are implemented so that people get better outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThroughout COVID-19, myself and others noted it was strange that Kiwis were waiting for medicines and devices that had been approved overseas and yet, somehow, we had to wait for Medsafe to check they were OK for us, too. It was crazy. We asked the question: has the rest of the world ever approved something, and New Zealand, at the end of the queue, said, \u201COh, sorry, you guys got it wrong\u201D, and they all cancelled their approvals? Of course not. Kiwis should not come second to anyone in this world and we should not be waiting to access things that have been consented elsewhere. That is why we have introduced the rule of two: if a medicine is consented in two other developed country jurisdictions, then within 30 days, Medsafe will approve it here if there\u2019s an application from the manufacturer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThe bill also expands rights in a safe and sensible way. Nurse practitioners and now pharmacist prescribers will be able to prescribe unapproved medicines that are in their scope of practice just as doctors can. Especially when there\u2019s a supply shortage, this is important. Authorised prescribers will be able to prescribe funded alternatives without more hoops, and it means continuity of care for patients and a better use of our health workforce\u2014again, a clear problem in the community heard by the Government and a practical solution put in place. We\u2019ve tidied up outdated rules around the Medicines Classification Committee, making membership requirements fit for purpose, and moving detailed operational matters out of legislation and into procedures where they belong, because good governance actually matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EDuring the committee stage, we added two further changes that are a result of listening to people in the community and fixing things that matter to them. For too long, New Zealand clinicians have been going to trade shows where new medicines are promoted, in places like Fiji and Noosa\u2014all that money going overseas, when, actually, we could be having these medical trade shows right here in New Zealand. Clinicians will be able to go and learn of the latest medical technologies in places like Queenstown and Auckland, that are part of the New Zealand economy, because we are removing an outdated restriction on advertising new medicines at trade shows\u2014within strict limits that there has to be a genuine purpose to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also removed an outdated restriction on pharmacist prescribers having an interest in a pharmacy. You can understand what the intention of that might have been, but when we trust professionals to act ethically, we should also allow them to have a financial interest in a pharmacy where they may be prescribing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThis bill is ultimately about pragmatism, trusting professionals, speeding up access to medicines, and making sure our regulatory settings are agile and focused on the outcomes. I particularly want to acknowledge officials at the Ministry of Health and Medsafe; the Parliamentary Private Secretary for Health, Todd Stephenson; the select committee; and all the stakeholders who contributed their expertise. This has been a collaborative effort. I note that the rule of two was campaigned on by all three coalition parties and, so far, has had support from every party in this Parliament. It\u2019s a very good example of how politicians can actually hear people\u2019s concerns in the community, formulate a solution, stay the course, implement it confidently, and make New Zealand a better place to live, one step at a time. I\u2019m very proud to be part of this bill and to commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00227a8aaff070e449d7a83469d92d87d1a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a8aaff070e449d7a83469d92d87d1a1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9f6df0d76844a3e9472dc47fa7f0035\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9f6df0d76844a3e9472dc47fa7f0035\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on the Medicines Amendment Bill. As the Minister has just outlined, this bill has achieved good support from across the House, and I\u2019m pleased to say that Labour continues to support this bill. There are many things that we want to call out as positive aspects of this bill. One of the things that does reflect the Minister\u2019s statement that the bill was a collaborative process is the positive inclusion of changes made at the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003EThe bill originally listed overseas regulators. It specified them by name in a schedule and, as submitters pointed out, that meant that, were there to be changes or were New Zealand to lose confidence in some of the processes of those regulators\u2014and, let\u2019s be clear, they are very, very esteemed regulators internationally\u2014we would need a change of the Act in order to no longer accept that organisation\u2019s approvals. The fact that, now, the bill takes an approach of specifying criteria that would allow for the approval of particular overseas regulators is, we think, a positive development. It allows flexibility; it allows New Zealand control over its\u2014shall we say\u2014regulatory sovereignty should we ever have a reason to question those regulators in the future. That\u2019s not an unreasonable concern; some of those regulators have been the subject of political interference or suggested political interference overseas, so it\u2019s important that, should that ever reach a threshold that is concerning to us, we have the ability to take action there. We\u2019re grateful to the other members of the select committee and the Government for accommodating that change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003EAnother positive change was the inclusion of pharmacist prescribers among those that can prescribe unapproved medicines. It appears that unapproved medicine prescribing has grown in scope due to the challenges in supply chains for medicines, which have really escalated in recent years and following on from the pandemic. More and more, substitute medicines that are unapproved are being used, and, therefore, the very narrow ability for those to be prescribed is being shown up. These changes, which allow both nurse prescribers and pharmacist prescribers to prescribe unapproved medicines, are positive, and, of course, the number of protections that exist around the prescription of unapproved medicines remain, which are important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003EI want to also note that our main objection to the bill as it is going, apparently, to be passed is the ability for ministerial appointments to the Medicines Classification Committee. It seems undesirable that what is, essentially, a technical committee should be the subject of ministerial appointments. We would have preferred to see the membership of that committee be appointed by the Director-General of Health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll now turn to the main purpose of the bill. The bill has the intention of speeding up the approval of medicines in New Zealand, and, for that reason, it is a laudable aim. We note that the description of the, aim according to the Government, has changed over the course of the Government. Initially, it was described as a much more automatic approval process than is now reflected in the bill. Whereas approval overseas would have automatically led to approval as initially proposed, now, not only does the medicine need to be approved overseas in two jurisdictions but it also needs a local sponsor. What that means is that the incentives that apply to sponsors continue to apply under this bill. As we heard at select committee, those incentives are often what delays the approval of these medicines in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003ETo give a little bit more context, drug companies will look at a market like New Zealand\u2014we\u2019re clearly smaller than other markets\u2014and they may not think it\u2019s worth their while to submit an application in New Zealand because they\u2019d rather prioritise their resources for supporting that application into bigger markets. I suppose you can\u2019t really argue with that\u2014it is the fact of being a small country\u2014but that\u2019s one reason why we\u2019re slower to get new medicines approved in New Zealand. That won\u2019t be changed by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003EAnother reason is that the pharmaceutical companies make a judgment about how much they\u2019ll sell. Of course, if you don\u2019t get Pharmac funding in New Zealand, that is the main determinant of the price of your drug to the consumer and the likelihood of it being widely used in New Zealand. The drug company doesn\u2019t know at the time of their application how likely they are to get Pharmac funding. That won\u2019t change with this bill. For those two reasons, there is reason to think that the incentives on what\u2019s referred to as \u201Csponsors\u201D in the Act, or pharmaceutical companies, are unchanged by this bill, and that\u2019s what makes me question how much this will, in practice, speed up the availability of medicines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003EHowever, the bill also does not do much harm\u2014actually, we\u2019re confident it does not do harm\u2014therefore, the potential improvement is worth us voting for this on this occasion. But really, the proof of the pudding, I would argue, is in whether or not we see a speed-up in the approval of new medicines. We\u2019ll be very pleased if we do. That\u2019s why we\u2019re voting for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003EThe final point I want to make is about the addition made to the bill at the committee of the whole House stage for the advertising of medicines at medical conferences. This was not included in the original bill, and, officially, the first I heard about this change was when the amendment got tabled. Unofficially, the first time I heard of this change was at a Business New Zealand event, where one of the stakeholders who would be a beneficiary of this change approached me and outlined why they thought it was a positive change for the New Zealand scientific conference industry and encouraged me to support it. Good on that person who was upfront and engaged with us over this change. It would have been nice to have heard that from the Government when the bill had garnered such cross-party support in every other respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003EIt did make me wonder why that idea\u2014the idea that the regulation of advertising at medical conferences should be changed\u2014is being included at the last minute in this bill. Because, of course, that idea was kicked around when we debated the Therapeutic Products Bill in the last Parliament, and it did make me wonder if the Therapeutic Products Bill was in trouble. When we passed the Therapeutic Products Act, in the last Parliament\u2014I had met an official who had been working on an update to the Medicines Act for over 20 years when I worked on that bill, and now it appears that, having repealed the Therapeutic Products Act and promised a new Medicines Act, David Seymour doesn\u2019t want to wait for that to make these changes in this Medicines Amendment Bill. We\u2019re told that there\u2019s another bill coming down the pipe that\u2019s going to take care of our outdated medicines regulation, but that bill must be in trouble, because why on earth would you put these changes about medical conferences into this bill at the last minute? Then I read in The Press the other day that Casey Costello is indicating that there will be new medicines regulation in by 2030. Well, colleagues, last time I checked, they\u2019re still writing science fiction about 2030. The Medicines Act is an Act from 1981. That is how outdated our medicines regulation is in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210f9c4ee34684669818ffc6d38c110d3\u0022\u003EWe support this bill and the modernisations and small changes to our medicines regulatory system that are in here, but our entire regulatory system is out of date. We saw that in the pandemic, when we had to debate, as a Parliament, retrospective changes to the Medicines Act to get an emergency approval for vaccines. We had no way of getting expedited approval, and, under the current Act, there is no proper way to deal with public health emergencies. There is no regulation of medical devices. There are a number of problems with our Medicines Act, and the fact that this bill has had this addition to it suggests to me that medicines regulation in New Zealand is in big trouble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022 data-id=\u00227f232c01e1b34e338fafbb7abe8e9573\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f232c01e1b34e338fafbb7abe8e9573\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. I stand on behalf of the Green Party to offer our tautoko towards this legislation also. I echo the sentiments of my colleague within the Labour Party around the small changes that are being made that look at patient care and the health and wellbeing of all New Zealanders. But, of course, reformation of the entire system is required, and I thank the former Minister of Health for reminding the House about the challenges of access to medications, to immunisations and vaccinations across the board, but particularly with COVID-19.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003EThe rule of two fast track is one fast track that the Green Party does support, so it\u2019s good to be standing here to tautoko and, also, reflect on the select committee process that the Health Committee oversaw and the diversity of submissions received in the 185 r\u014Dp\u016B, hauora, individuals, and wh\u0101nau who provided submissions, both in writing and orally. There was strong support. But of course, you know, we\u2019ve always got to keep an eye on health equity, on access, on timing\u2014and this is addressing the timing issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003EBut, also, I want to talk about workforce and ensuring that our workforce is adequately trained, working at top of scope, but, also, fuelled in the system to deliver these medicines fast into the community. When we think of areas such as the far, far North, where we have a shortage of clinicians and also those working in general practice, there continues to be these challenges in terms of workforce. This legislation does open up the space for access for our nurse prescribers to work at top of scope and support an effective access for the community to medications\u2014but, of course, we need the trained clinicians in the community in the first place. So those are the questions we ask in terms of the way with which we can fuel not just this part of the system but the entire system to ensure that we have the relevant workforce that is capable, that is trained, and has the supports and resources available to be able to deliver medications to the front line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003EWe heard in the select committee the way with which the access to faster medicines will support better health outcomes for all New Zealanders. The view of those particularly\u2014and I think of our hauora M\u0101ori\u2014is how do we take a Te Tiriti - based approach, looking at health equity for those most impacted on the system and ensure that voice is heard across the kaupapa? I think about the way with which appointments can be made to committees, and I\u2019m thinking about, also, the Medicines Classification Committee having recognition of an ao M\u0101ori voice\u2014a clinical expert and leader can offer that lens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003EWe do have concerns, of course, around the Amendment Paper that was tabled without, really, notice. It\u2019s a missed opportunity that the Minister brought it into the committee of the whole House, because we could have interrogated and provided community and the health sector with the opportunity to have a voice on the amendment that the Minister put forward at a very, very late stage. While I wasn\u2019t present for the debate of the committee of the whole House, we have to be really careful about the way with which non-approved medications can be advertised and promoted, and what is a conference, too. So those are some concerns that we have. But, again, going back to the foundation of the Medicines Act in general, this is a good start, but there requires more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003EI want to talk particularly, again, about rural communities and the way with which those who are in rural and urban settings serve those who are most impacted and have the lack of access. Te Hau Awhiowhio o Otangarei Trust came before us and spoke to the way with which they have to work in a collaborative approach. This is a low socio-economic community in Whang\u0101rei. The clinicians, as well as those that are allied health, are trying to usher wh\u0101nau into the health system so that they can access medication and treatment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003EThey were absolutely supportive of this legislation, but they did also bring in the consideration around how do we bring everyone up in the health system as kaimahi to work at top of scope, because that\u2019s part of the challenge, is the way with which we can provide access to timely, quality health services no matter where you live\u2014no matter where you live. Whether you\u2019re in Kait\u0101ia, whether you\u2019re in Bluff, whether you\u2019re in \u014Ctauthi, Taranaki, or the East Coast, or for me in Tai Tokerau, those are the challenges. While we do provide this fast-track process to bring medications into the country, it is about form following function, and are we readying the system sufficiently so that both our health providers, Te Whatu Ora - Health New Zealand, and those on the front line in pharmacy, dental, everyone, has the ability to be able to exercise at top of scope\u2014what they need to do to provide the medicines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003EAlso, when we\u2019re talking about Pharmac, you know, we\u2019ve seen the increase in funding. That\u2019s really awesome, because we know that there are a broad range of medications that are available internationally that have yet to land here in Aotearoa. I\u2019m hoping that this will be one of the levers to increase access. I reflect on a fundraiser that a particular wh\u0101nau member has, a loved sister, cousin, and niece; 10 years fighting a frontal lobe tumour. They are currently fundraising $70,000 for another year of treatment for a medication to help treat this issue she\u2019s had for 10 years. She\u2019s been everywhere, man, in terms of trying to get a range of treatment options. But this medication, of which I cannot pronounce the name\u2014vorasidenib; something like that\u2014is available in Australia for free. It\u2019s available in Australia for free, but she can\u2019t move to Australia. She has commitments here and she has wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003EWhat I am pointing out to members of the House, is that this is an opportunity for us to open our eyes and our hearts in the way with which funding is distributed into the health system, because there are those that are impacted, like this whanaunga who\u2019s reached out to me. She\u2019s just like, you know, \u201CCan this new thing that\u2019s come through\u2014\u201D, because people are googling, people are watching Parliament TV more now than ever. So when this amendment legislation came through, it\u2019s then that I got a message saying, \u201CThere\u2019s a wh\u0101nau member. There\u2019s an issue. How can we get these types of medications into the country?\u201D I said, \u201COh, that\u2019s something new to me. Aroha mai. But let\u2019s scope that.\u201D This is not something that is foreign to many of us. We have many wh\u0101nau who have been impacted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003ESo what do we do? In terms of the levers that are available, we have got this fast track that provides the way with which access can open the door for more medications into New Zealand. We have now seen an increase in budget for medications through Pharmac into the system. But, ultimately, it is about the entire system, the health system in the fullest, and also providing our workforce with the necessary skills, tools, and ability to be able to deliver these medications into community so that they can help prevent, but also treat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223f6ec5f31ce54dd4bd54b141faf39a88\u0022\u003ESo, again, prevention is better, of course, than getting it further down the track and you\u2019re only treating it. If we can pull it back and take a population-based approach, we could start looking to identify and work with those communities most impacted, those who have the biggest challenges to support and care. I always go back to the far, Far North, Te Hiku o Te Ika, and consider the way with which they have a serious lack of access to primary care, with some 3,000 wh\u0101nau members who cannot access a GP. I hope that levers such as this legislation will provide a mechanism for our doctors to be able to offer the medications available. But how do we find the workforce to do the mahi, ultimately? T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd2dfc51ec3b4c0d82b04b1bb7461061\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220cca8d925277422396d3d4e7837175a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd2dfc51ec3b4c0d82b04b1bb7461061\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to be able to rise on behalf of a Government that is improving the healthcare system in New Zealand, and the Medicines Amendment Bill helps to further that. The Minister has already spoken about the rule of two, which is going to bring more medicines more quickly into New Zealand\u2014this is a very good thing\u2014and about the extended rights to nurse practitioners and pharmacist prescribers, which is going to increase access, which is much needed. I want to say thank you to the members of the Health Committee for their collaborative and pragmatic approach to this bill and for the positive inclusions that were made in the committee. This is a fantastic bill, another step on the way to improving healthcare outcomes for New Zealanders. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce539ef5cbf142c29413159093e4497b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce539ef5cbf142c29413159093e4497b\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a privilege to stand on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Medicines Amendment Bill. This bill is the tonic that the country needs to ensure that we get rid of that bureaucratic sluggishness, which has basically held up medicines at our door. This bill, as has been mentioned by other members, is a fast track to medicines. Actually, I\u2019d like to go further and say this is the smart track to getting medicines out the door to New Zealanders. We should be at the front of the queue when it comes to accessing world-class medicines. Whether they\u2019re safe, life-changing, life-extending medicines, New Zealanders should be at the front of the queue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003EThe rule of two enables this pathway to be expedited, to get these medicines that have been approved by two other regulators that we agree are the regulators that we can trust. Then those medicines can be prescribed in New Zealand, rather than undergoing that full local evaluation. We\u2019ve expanded, also, through this bill, the prescribing rights to nurse practitioners, and through the select committee, we included pharmacist prescribers, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003EAnother change was that all prescribers, in times of emergency\u2014where there is a shortage with some supply chain in terms of the medicines that have been approved\u2014will be able to prescribe funded but, also, unapproved medicines. This is practical and pragmatic, and it is that smart track for medicines approval and getting those medicines to the patients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank all the submitters that contributed to the development of this bill through the select committee stage, and, in particular, noting Dr Malcolm Mulholland from Patient Voice Aotearoa and the advocacy and the work he has done to get the voice of our patients right into this Chamber. That voice has been loud and strong. We\u2019ve made changes today. I think we should all be proud in this House today that we can support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296e2b39ada204513974da2706fe77f9d\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to turn to the \u201Cgood book\u201D, the good book called the coalition agreement between New Zealand First and National, and I\u2019d like to read very briefly from the scriptures, which state: \u201CFrom this coalition agreement, we will require Medsafe to approve new pharmaceuticals within 30 days of them being approved by at least two overseas regulatory agencies recognised by New Zealand\u201D. For that reason, I support this bill. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe62ebaa9e7e4f3ebf49d433e2baf156\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe62ebaa9e7e4f3ebf49d433e2baf156\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As canvassed by my colleague H\u016Bhana Lyndon, we are supporting the Medicines Amendment Bill. I just wanted to take a moment, before I go into some other aspects of the bill, to just recap reflections of the committee of the whole House stage that we had. I think there\u2019s a bit of an irony here with the other piece of legislation we\u2019ve seen that aims to create better frameworks for high-quality legislation and make sure that we are having robust processes, and yet, while we support this bill, it was concerning to see a last-minute amendment being added which would have added\u2014this is the new addition of clause 12A, on the exemption for advertising medicines at medical conferences. I think good process would have meant that this change would have been introduced at the select committee stage so that it would have been adequately canvassed. It was a shame that we did not have the opportunity to have the select committee adequately evaluate the merits of the amendment that was introduced by the Minister during the committee of the whole House stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EAn example of this is when we tried to examine some of the commentary by the Minister at the time, in relationship to, for example, the amount of revenue and the changes being made that this amendment would bring to the country. The Minister, at that time, during the debate, for example, made some\u2014I would characterise them as kind of flippant\u2014remarks and just raced figures off the top of his head around the revenue that these medical conferences would bring. I think it makes it hard for us to have a robust committee of the whole House stage when we have these sorts of amendments being introduced at the very last minute and no analysis to go alongside them except the Minister\u2019s opinions on the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EIt also does not do service to an adequate democratic process when members of the Opposition are not able to adequately engage with these amendments, because we\u2019re engaging with them at the last stage that we\u2019re able to and without adequate analysis to do so. So I think that while this bill has a lot of merits, I\u2019m still none the less concerned that the Government did not follow, I think, best practice when it comes to making sure that the bill was fit for purpose at its introduction and during the select committee stage. And so, yeah\u2014we didn\u2019t support the amendment at the time, but we still think that the bill has merits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EAs others have canvassed, access to medicines in this country\u2014to the most modern and most, sort of, recent medicines available\u2014is a barrier. What we can lean on are other countries\u2019 robust processes in order to acquire more medicines to alleviate the issues that we are facing in relationship to access to medicines. This is why we are welcoming this bill, and we welcome the provisions that allow us to lean on peer-reviewed research from overseas. My colleague Lawrence Xu-Nan, at the committee of the whole House\u2014and I know that he\u2019s got a pharmacology degree\u2014helped evaluate some of the robustness in which we\u2019ll have in this bill, in relationship to making sure that we have those peer-reviewed studies being done before we are able to evaluate whether overseas jurisdictions have done due diligence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EThere were some questions in relationship as to whether we\u2019re genuinely tapping into the wide range of jurisdictions that are out there, particularly because the provisions in this bill require that these entities produce those reports in English. I did welcome the Minister\u2019s engagement on the issue at the committee of the whole House stage, where he did note that some jurisdictions that may not use English as an official language none the less take steps to produce that material in English. But none the less, I think, moving forward, in terms of creating legislation that allows us to genuinely tap into as broad a range of medicines as is available, and where robust processes have been followed, there\u2019s a missed opportunity to move away from the Anglosphere when it comes to access to medicines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228b7b671ebc6d45ae91350f8e13a7fb42\u0022\u003EI think in order for this bill to be genuinely successful, we have to turn our eyes to supporting some of the bodies that help distribute those medicines to our communities\u2014for example, our pharmacies. We know our pharmacists are under humongous pressures. They are often the first line of defence when it comes to public health, and they\u2019re often engaging with sectors of our communities that would have been underserved by other parts of the health system. As we broaden the range of medicines that our pharmacists can deliver to our communities, I hope that the Government turns its eyes to adequately resourcing our pharmacies and our pharmacists so that they\u2019re well looked after and they\u2019re community-led, as opposed to risking those bodies being run by corporates. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212fd037a8544418390244b7c3a65216e\u0022 data-id=\u0022587041e6655f4cfa84f50cf29ef5abae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212fd037a8544418390244b7c3a65216e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022587041e6655f4cfa84f50cf29ef5abae\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great pleasure to rise and speak in favour of the Medicines Amendment Bill in the third reading. This Government has been focused on increasing our access to pharmaceutical interventions. We look at the money we\u2019ve added to Pharmac\u2014an extra $604 million for those really important cancer medications and other life-saving medications. This is a step that makes very good sense so that we can speed up access to cutting-edge medicines that actually will extend people\u2019s lives and make people\u2019s lives better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212fd037a8544418390244b7c3a65216e\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re also making sure we\u2019re expanding the ability for various health professionals to be able to prescribe medications. This, once again, is all about getting timely healthcare, which is what this Government is very focused on. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022 data-id=\u00226871dd24e9af4e278408c7f9ca2728fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226871dd24e9af4e278408c7f9ca2728fa\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. That was a very big claim from a very short contribution, which is probably summing up this bill quite nicely\u2014it claims a lot, and doesn\u2019t necessarily do everything that\u2019s written on the till.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003ESo at the third reading of the Medicines Amendment Bill, it\u2019s worth, I think, reminding ourselves what this legislation actually does\u2014and it does do some good things; it certainly doesn\u2019t do any harm\u2014and what it doesn\u2019t do. The bill has been presented by the Government as a step forward to access to medicines in New Zealand. In reality, it\u2019s a relatively modest set of technical changes, some of which may help streamline regulatory processes\u2014we have no problem with that; that\u2019s a good move\u2014but few of which are going to make any particular, tangible differences in terms of people\u2019s access to medicines, and particularly for New Zealanders struggling to access medicines and the healthcare that they need. There are many other problems afoot, and the Government is choosing not to tackle those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EAt the heart of this bill lies Medsafe\u2014as we\u2019ve heard from previous other contributors\u2014New Zealand\u2019s medicines regulator and agency, obviously, that performs an essential public service to New Zealanders. We know that Medsafe\u2019s work is critical, it\u2019s really critical. It\u2019s an agency that people fundamentally rely upon to make sure that the medications that they receive are safe, and that they have access to the medications that they fundamentally do need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EWe also rely on standards set by respected international regulators. We\u2019ve heard much said\u2014well, we\u2019ve heard it mentioned; not exactly much said because the contributions from the Government have been very short and very brief. But we\u2019ve heard the rule of two mentioned, and that seems to be a little bit of a catch phrase that has been relied upon quite heavily. But those international benchmarks should fundamentally complement Medsafe\u2019s work, and not replace it in any way, shape, or form. So as Parliament continues to consider these changes, we\u2019ve got to be very clear\u2014and we are clear on this side of the House\u2014that nothing in this or any future legislation should diminish Medsafe\u2019s independence or its ability to make those incredibly important, careful, evidence-based decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003ESo with respect to the verification pathway, the bill introduces a new verification pathway allowing approval for medicines that have already been authorised by trusted overseas regulators. That sounds sensible, and, on paper, that absolutely makes sense. If a medicine has been fully approved by a regulatory body, a comparable regulator, it absolutely could save time and reduce duplication, to recognise the approval process here. But the key, I suppose, is in how that is done. Safeguards must be in place so that Medsafe can swiftly act if issues arise from those overseas regulators. It must retain the power to halt or even revoke approvals if new evidence comes to light that points to some sort of safety concern. It\u2019s also important that the operational details\u2014you know, the documentation, the conditions, the oversight mechanisms\u2014are clear and that they\u2019re regularly reviewed. Without that clarity, we risk that shortcuts could undermine the trust that people have in the system, which obviously is incredibly important. So while Labour sees potential in this pathway, and we do support this bill, we do so with caution. Efficiency, ultimately, must never come at the expense of safety or at the expense of independence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThat brings me to thinking about the difference between intent and impact\u2014so intent versus impact. The stated goal of this bill is to improve access to medicines. That\u2019s something that absolutely everybody in this House could get behind, and everybody in this House, no doubt, supports. But the question is whether this particular bill meaningfully achieves that. The Government has promised faster access, but there is little evidence in this particular pathway that it will deliver real change. My colleague the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall outlined some of those specific concerns earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EWhen we consider patients waiting on life-saving treatments, it\u2019s important that this bill is meaty enough to actually make those changes, and not just the sound bites that the Government are offering at the moment. Otherwise, it risks being more symbolic, really, than any kind of proper fix\u2014any kind of structural fix.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003ESo if the Government truly wants to improve access, it should be (a) transparent about who stands to benefit, how much sooner treatments will be available\u2014specifically, we should have been able to hear details, potentially, about that today\u2014and what accountability will be in place if those improvements don\u2019t actually materialise. We haven\u2019t heard information about that, and it\u2019s important because New Zealanders, quite frankly, are tired of announcements, and announcements that don\u2019t come with delivery. But as my colleague the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall said earlier, in effect, it doesn\u2019t do any harm, hence the fact that we will be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003ENow, another area that deserves some close attention is the proposed change to the way that members of the Medicines Classification Committee are going to be appointed. Labour is concerned that shifting more power over appointments to the Minister risks politicising this process, opening the door to what could potentially be undue influence from industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003EThat brings us, I suppose, to the broader question about priorities. That\u2019s a broader question that is raised on this side of the House frequently, because it needs to be. At a time when New Zealanders are struggling with the cost of living, they\u2019re struggling with a health system that is absolutely under immense pressure, the Government has chosen, as core business, to focus on this bill\u2014which, while perfectly acceptable, while it does no harm, probably isn\u2019t anything more than a technical fix, but, nevertheless, this is a priority. It\u2019s tidying up a regulatory process, and its tidying up, in regulatory terms, offers little to the average family, who are still trying to struggle to fill a prescription or to actually see a GP. And remembering this is the same Government that scrapped free prescriptions, a decision that immediately made it harder for low-income families and vulnerable New Zealanders to access the medicines that they need. So whilst, again, we\u2019ll support this bill, it\u2019s potentially largely symbolic. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s the fix that it\u2019s claimed to be on the other side of the House during these short contributions. But it\u2019s a little bit ironic that it crows about access to medications on one hand\u2014by a Government that has directly made that access more difficult on the other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003ESo while we\u2019re here debating procedural tweaks and international alignments that all sound very good, thousands of people are now thinking twice about actually collecting their prescriptions, because of the cost. That\u2019s the real access issue. If we\u2019re going to talk access issues to medications, that is the real access issue\u2014not at all something that\u2019s even touched on with this bill. So it\u2019s another example of the Government, I think, focusing much more on appearances than outcomes. After all, they did talk a big talk, and when it comes to delivery, these are the types of things they\u2019re offering up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003ENow, in the remainder of my time, I\u2019d like to repeat something that was mentioned earlier in relation to the Medicines Act 1981\u2014which is older than some of the medicines that it continues to regulate; it absolutely belongs in a different era. If the Government truly was interested in making this sector better, and this sphere of operations safer, that\u2019s the Act that they\u2019d be working on. But we haven\u2019t heard much about that. It does raise our interest, on this side of the House, as to exactly what\u2019s going on with the update of the Medicines Act 1981. As I said, it was written in an era before modest biotechnology, it doesn\u2019t reflect today\u2019s complex international supply chains, it doesn\u2019t reflect new forms of therapy, and there\u2019s absolutely gaps around things as basic\u2014as absolutely basic\u2014as medical devices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b25073140024432e866170b740877dfa\u0022\u003ELabour will support this bill\u2019s passage, mainly because it does no harm. It could have been better, but it\u2019s not\u2014that\u2019s OK. We remain deeply concerned about the Government\u2019s overall direction in general, but particularly in health. And we implore the Government to start thinking about the fact that New Zealanders need policies that make a real difference\u2014we hope for better, but we aim for less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9296f9147f249ba991d9baa12da6437\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9296f9147f249ba991d9baa12da6437\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is another critical step by this Government to ensure New Zealanders have access to timely and quality healthcare. This Medicines Amendment Bill increases patient access to medicine by introducing a streamlined ratification pathway for medicine approval, the rule of two, allowing safe and effective treatment to reach patients more quickly. It\u2019s also updating prescribing settings to enable suitable qualified health professionals to prescribe an approved medicine in appropriate circumstances. This reform modernises our regulatory system and aligns with international best practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df23ed9a7102406f9899558fb3841582\u0022\u003EThis Government continues to work to improve patient wellbeing and healthcare outcomes. This Government\u2019s focus is all about patients\u2014their safety, their access, and their care. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022 data-id=\u0022d173ac470e3a4e30b3de120d1b706a42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d173ac470e3a4e30b3de120d1b706a42\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on the Medicines Amendment Bill, and, as colleagues from my party have indicated, we will be supporting this bill this morning. I do want to acknowledge the Health Committee, which has obviously progressed this bill, which appears to have multi-party support across the Parliament, which I think it\u2019s fair to appreciate, because this is a bill that will deliver some modest technical changes that, I\u2019m sure, will make some difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EI think the jury is still out as to the full extent of the difference that it will make, because we hear from the Government that this bill is about improving access to healthcare, improving access to medicines. What would actually make a difference, I think, is a Government that introduced a bill that delivered things that led to things like three free GP visits a year. That would certainly send a strong signal around improved access to health. Perhaps a Government that would instead spend its time ensuring that free prescriptions were still made available to the community\u2014that would have a direct impact on access to healthcare, and, in particular, to medicines, as well. But, instead, they decide to strip all that stuff away, make it more difficult, and, instead, they have done something quite different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210a254d9a964488b9686dfe61eb40d91\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Health targets. We\u2019re investing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bda2ef3ea15c4dbfa86ed37d49792cea\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s interesting that members opposite love to chip in whenever we get up, and we intend to take our full calls, because the public of New Zealand deserve to hear what members of this House actually think about this legislation. It\u2019s unusual that we\u2019re sitting here on a Wednesday morning, because the Government believed that this is so important that it needs to set aside the time of select committees. I look forward to the next Government member taking a full call. [Interruption] Members, there\u2019s no need to chip in with your interjections. You\u2019ve got an opportunity to stand up and tell us exactly what it is that you want to say. So we look forward to that for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EThis is a particular bill that relies on things like international best practice\u2014yes. It relies on the way in which other jurisdictions are approaching things\u2014yes. It relies on the fact that some specified practitioners, as identified in the bill, will have an increased level of support and ability to be able to provide medication to members of the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EI was listening to colleagues, and I listened to my colleague from the Green Party talk about the role that pharmacists actually play in our community, and he is absolutely right. Any member of this House who talks with a community pharmacist will know that they are often the first port of call. They are the ones that don\u2019t just dispense the medication but, often, are in circumstances where they are required to dispense some advice\u2014for example, when someone is choosing between one medicine or another because they can\u2019t afford it. The fact is that when they front up\u2014and this Government have stripped away free prescriptions now so people have to pay for their medicine\u2014pharmacists are tasked with giving advice on what medication might be better for them, given that element of choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it provides additional powers and responsibilities to specified practitioners, including pharmacists, including nurse practitioners, and others, as well, in addition to their medical practitioner. Now, my colleague Dr McLellan talked about the fact that we cannot afford as a country, we cannot afford as a community, to set aside the safeguards that are in place to protect communities when it comes to medication. We expect that when someone goes and gets their medicine or their medication, it\u2019s able to actually hit a particular threshold. We rely on this bill in terms of the international reciprocal approaches that may exist in terms of standards that it actually does fit the bill and does cut the mustard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea399a30464f434e93ae242bc766e499\u0022\u003EAnd so, it is important that whilst we are supportive of what are technical changes to this bill, the underlying intention of providing safeguards is actually not compromised, and that is something that the Labour Party do express some concern around\u2014in particular, when we\u2019re talking about the ministerial appointments to the committee that would be making recommendations that would inform the decision-making process. We cannot afford for that to become a political exercise. Yes, we accept that Ministers of the Crown, through holding the warrant, are empowered to make those appointments. But what we don\u2019t want to see\u2014what we cannot see\u2014is the nature of those appointments becoming political; effectively, jobs for the boys. Instead, what is really important is that those who sit on that particular committee, who are making these decisions, have the technical skill, have the medical capacity, to be able to make decisions that are right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea9a2c6959ab4f75a57164f866e744b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea9a2c6959ab4f75a57164f866e744b9\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise to speak in this third reading of the Medicines Amendment Bill. Some very sensible changes are made within this bill, and it has real-world implications for people working in the clinical coalface every day. Because of the way our supply chains are often interrupted, some medicines have to be sought that are alternative sources. That means that they are, effectively, unapproved medications and come under what\u2019s called section 29. Previously to this, only a registered medical professional could sign a prescription for those, even if another prescribing authority could prescribe the same medication; because it comes from a different factory, it\u2019s essentially not allowed to be prescribed any more. It creates a huge amount of confusion and extra bother for people. So this change will have real-world improvements for people on the ground, along with the other sensible changes. Therefore, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022e42e8b92eaf74fda99b2083cc903b791\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e42e8b92eaf74fda99b2083cc903b791\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to join with my colleagues in support of this bill. I commend the select committee for its work; I didn\u2019t have the pleasure of sitting on the committee, but I have reviewed some of the submissions that went to the select committee, and they tend to fit into one of three categories in terms of the points that submitters were making. Some were around the time taken for approvals; some were around attracting suppliers to New Zealand\u2014so, the actual funding gap, and what fund is Pharmac committed to funding; and then there was a third, broad set around access to not just medicine but healthcare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI do think that that\u2019s relevant to this bill, and I do think that that\u2019s relevant to the intent of this bill, which is to address a healthcare issue. The Government really must recognise that all of these issues, in terms of access, do sit side by side for people in their real lives. If it does cost too much for them to access their prescriptions, they simply will not go and make use of that opportunity to resolve an issue at its earliest stage. If we are finding it takes up to $70 or $90 to visit your doctor, then, again, people will simply just not engage with the system whatsoever. [Interruption] I hear members commenting opposite about the cost\u2014those are the prices in some parts of West Auckland, so those are issues for real people who are trying to access medical facilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe other issue is delay; when you find people who need to access specialist services having to often wait for months and months before they see a specialist\u2014but even for the simplest of things. I\u2019ve spoken to people who have had delays just getting their children vaccinated at their local GP because of the lack of nursing staff in their medical facilities. So delayed access is an important issue, as well, and the Government needs to look at the cost of prescriptions. The cost of prescriptions is something you could also remove. It is part of the reason why people do not go and access those medicines at an early stage. So those submitters were making very, very valid points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EIn terms of the genesis of the bill\u2014and we do support the bill. I think that the need for the support is really there in the data. The regulatory impact statement refers to some research that was done over 20 OECD countries between 2011 and 2020, where New Zealand ranked last for the approval of modern medicines\u2014last out of 20 countries, which is really shocking. There was a core list of 403 medicines included in that analysis, and New Zealand had only publicly funded 24 of those medicines\u2014that\u2019s 6 percent\u2014by 2018, which is really shocking. On the 2020 study, it took New Zealand, on average, 659 days to publicly fund modern medicines, which was compared to an average of 273 days for other OECD countries, which is really, really shocking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThat research was then extended into 2025 and the data remained really bad in terms of New Zealand\u2019s comparators. New Zealanders, at 2025, are missing out on access to 142 modern medicines that are publicly funded in Australia, and 81 percent of those medicines are considered core by international standards; 38 are oncology medicines, including therapies for blood cancer. So this is really significant in terms of some of the data that demonstrates that change is needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EChange is needed, and this will go some way to addressing that, but I think we also have to recognise that it doesn\u2019t go all the way in terms of addressing what the problem is. A number of submitters raised the issue of the gap between approvals and what Pharmac will actually fund as being a core issue that we need to address before we believe we\u2019ve solved this problem. Many companies, it was argued by some submitters, wouldn\u2019t be interested in entering the New Zealand market because they don\u2019t think it\u2019s worth the effort to submit, simply because the funding isn\u2019t there overall. That problem absolutely must be addressed. Again, we do support this bill, but the view from many submitters is that it doesn\u2019t go far enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI wanted to briefly speak to the issue of the secondary legislation provisions that are in the bill, which the committee did make some changes to. This is new section 22AA, the recognised regulatory authority, and this is where the Minister may, by notice in the Gazette, declare a person or body to be a recognised regulatory authority if the Minister is satisfied across a number of criteria. The important thing, in my view, is that the power also gives revocation powers to the Minister, so the Minister may revoke a declaration if they\u2019re satisfied that the recognised regulatory authority no longer meets one of the criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThis was important in reflection of what some of the submitters to select committee reflected on, which is that while a certain list of countries can be useful in terms of predicting where we might go and who our comparators are, that\u2019s not always the case. We had members of the Wellington Community Justice Project, for example, who are made up of Victoria University law students, who argued that while a country may historically be relevant and reliable, it doesn\u2019t remain the case that they would always be so, so it\u2019s important that we have flexible powers of regulation to allow determinations to change those standards, should they be required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThere were also some submitters who, again, said that the bill didn\u2019t go far enough. The New Zealand Law Society was certainly one of those, and I do tend to think that we need to review those submissions in terms of understanding whether further statutory changes are needed to ensure that international players are able to pitch in to the market and have a reasonable hope that they will be considered for Pharmac in terms of funding, as well, and that is absolutely a barrier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EOther members have spoken about our objection, on this side of the House, to a part of the bill. Our main objection is that the appointment to the Medicines Classification Committee should not be a ministerial appointment, and that\u2019s really because of the technical nature of this role. It shouldn\u2019t be a political appointment, and therefore our view is that that is one change that could really reassure the public that the people who are appointed are being appointed because of their technical skills. Interestingly, on this point, the UK, in 2016, looked at its processes of appointment. They were looking particularly at judges, but they did do an examination of what is an appropriate appointment and to what extent you should assure that there\u2019s independence in the appointment process. They updated their transparency and appointment guidelines\u2014well, in 2016 they were first created; they then updated them in 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI\u2019m of the view we should be doing precisely the same thing. We should have very clear guidance on how appointments should be made and the criteria that Ministers should be following, including potentially having a system where, if you have potential appointees that are vetted through a department, the Minister may only appoint from those who are deemed capable and qualified\u2014that the Minister cannot appoint from anyone who is outside that \u201CA list\u201D, if you like, of individuals who\u2019ve been individually and independently vetted. Right now, New Zealand doesn\u2019t have that system, and Ministers can overlook the recommendations of a department. I think what that has meant for us is that we are subject to political appointments, but also, for me, the important thing is a lack of public trust in terms of some of our appointments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EAgain, we wish that the Government had considered this. They haven\u2019t. However, we are supportive of the bill overall, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022 data-id=\u00221554442e7b894c729c930e7de0df67f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221554442e7b894c729c930e7de0df67f8\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. We actually live in one of the most exciting times in human history. Science has delivered to us innovations, including medical innovations, that were completely unimaginable only a few decades ago. We now understand the entire human genome, or we can at least sequence it; I don\u2019t know whether we completely understand it. What this amazing scientific revolution has led to in the area of medicines is that we now have new ways of treating diseases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003EYesterday, I was privileged enough actually to host an event around skin cancer, and that was put on by the Skin Cancer College Australasia. It was focused around prevention and detection, which is extremely important, but unfortunately, skin cancers can often develop into very aggressive diseases. I remember, about 15 years ago, when I was working in the medicines industry, I actually helped launch what was called the first BRAF inhibitor, which is a medicine that can actually shut down a cancer from growing. How that works is it actually attacks a particular pathway that causes the cancer to grow. That\u2019s the kind of amazing medical technologies that we\u2019re faced with today, and since then, there have been lots and lots of advances: we\u2019ve got CRISPR technology, we\u2019ve got CAR T therapy, we\u2019ve got immunotherapies. What this bill does is mean that we\u2019re actually allowing New Zealanders to get these technologies much, much faster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003EWe want to ensure that New Zealanders get access to all of the medical treatments that are available in other countries as quickly as possible, and I do want to commend everyone in the House for coming in behind this bill and saying, \u201CActually, Kiwis\u2019 health and treatments matter as much as other countries\u2019.\u201D This pathway of allowing us to recognise two other highly competent international regulators who have approved a treatment and then expedite it into the New Zealand market is a great step forward. This was asked for by patient communities and groups; it was campaigned on by ACT, and I\u2019ve got to acknowledge our other coalition partners as well; and it has been supported by members across the House. This is a way of actually making sure we get these exciting technologies and medical treatments to people quicker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff775135e61c4e95af2c92c58bf12a52\u0022\u003ENow, there has been some talk about funding, and look, I totally acknowledge there is more to do, but this is a very important step in making sure our regulatory processes are fit for purpose and deliver treatments in a timely manner. The Government has an entire other programme of ensuring that Pharmac is fit for purpose. We obviously have increased funding to Pharmac, and we look forward to making the case for more funding to Pharmac. But I am very pleased to commend this to the House. This will make a difference to New Zealand patients and really make sure we can get new medical technologies and new treatments into New Zealand faster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00221e3b40f9fb554b27bd592020696e5084\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e3b40f9fb554b27bd592020696e5084\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the Green Party of Aotearoa to also speak on the Medicines Amendment Bill in its third reading. Like my previous speakers, H\u016Bhana Lyndon and Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, we do support this bill, but having partaken in the committee stage, there are a few things that I want to address specifically from the committee stage. A part of our time was spent discussing, particularly, Part 1, clause 6, subclause (2) with regards to some of the clarifications around the idea of peer reviewing but, also, around susceptibility to undue pressure from industry and, also, political pressure. I think, in those cases, the Minister has expressed\u2014which is very helpful\u2014that when it comes to things like peer review, etc., those regional authorities, or local authorities, do, in fact, do some of that ahead of time. The reassurance that we were given is that these peer reviews, particularly, will be in line or up to the same standards, if not better, than what we have here in Aotearoa. When we\u2019re looking at the susceptibility to industrial and political pressure, we\u2019re hoping, as the Minister expressed, that we\u2019re not going to be seeing some of those aspects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWe do still have concerns around new section 22C, when it comes to the Minister\u2019s consent by verification, although the Minister did raise the idea that the ministerial consent by verification \u201Cdoes not require independent assessment by the Director-General to contextualise the benefit-risk profile of the medicine due to local disease epidemiology\u201D. I think the Minister said that we are looking at a diverse culture and diverse society. When we\u2019re looking at multiple authorities around the world that do approve these sorts of medicines already, we should be reassured that those kinds of data can be extrapolated or used here in Aotearoa New Zealand. I think, in particular, part of the concern with that is, in terms of the pharmacological properties, that we\u2019re still not entirely sure if sufficient work has been done on local disease epidemiology and how that relates to, particularly, M\u0101ori populations and Pasifika populations, as other regulatory authorities overseas may not have access to some of those data, bar a few particular regions. I think that particular challenge of that element is still something that should be teased out and should be considered when we are reviewing this bill or how this bill is put into practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, a big part of this bill is also around expanding the prescribing rights by allowing nurse practitioners to prescribe medicine under section 29 of the Medicines Act. I think this is also a really pertinent and crucial moment to thank our nurses in Aotearoa for the work that they are doing and for the challenges that they are currently facing right now in the current political environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFinally, I think it\u2019s also really important to address, as my colleague Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March mentioned, the surprising\u2014and we have seen a lot of that\u2014amendment bill that was dropped by the Minister during the committee of the whole House stage without any prior select committee process and without any prior consultation with the House. In general, we\u2019ve seen a number of those kinds of amendments taking place just this week or over the last few weeks, but, in this particular case, the new addition of clause 12A, in terms of the advertisement of medicine, was something that this bill shouldn\u2019t really be addressing. If we\u2019re looking at the core essence of this bill, it is to expedite the approval of medicines and make medicines more accessible for the people of Aotearoa. We fail to see how the advertisement of medicine would support or enhance that particular purpose of the bill. I think, more concerningly, we don\u2019t want it to turn into a situation like we are seeing in the US, where the advertisement is a way of pushing medicine to people who don\u2019t really need it in the first place. That\u2019s something that is of a little bit of concern. But, overall, the Green Party does support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226f7aa8db9de4423c991906c70345615c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000095\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000096\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 121, Noes 2.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00229b135190bc474b2694a6c6e16fac61dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b135190bc474b2694a6c6e16fac61dc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c9d5d0244b5a42eeaf15334adb70147c\u0022\u003ECrimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbe5535bad0c4f0781a14fc42b0b0d0a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000100\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 4 November.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002276eaaaeb685b4067b7ba70626a5ba678\u0022\u003EPart 1  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000102\u0022\u003EAmendments to Crimes Act 1961\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4c2774f453a4787a064ce82aa644d54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4c2774f453a4787a064ce82aa644d54\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on for further consideration of the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill. When we were last considering the bill, we were debating Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 15, \u201CAmendments to Crimes Act 1961\u201D. The question is, again, that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u00221ec8aef5684649e88bb56e49c4bb4642\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ec8aef5684649e88bb56e49c4bb4642\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m looking forward to continuing this debate on this bill today with the Minister, and I note that we have the officials here today with us, which is good as there were a few questions I had last time we were considering this bill that I didn\u2019t get a response to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI will start with new section 2A(3). I had a question about the definition of a person who is in New Zealand who obviously owes allegiance under that section. The question I have is: who is covered by the statement \u201Cwho is in New Zealand\u201D? The reason I raise that question is that the Law Society raised an issue on this about there potentially being a difficulty with the reference to \u201CPersons in New Zealand\u201D due to the need to reconcile, respectively, the Crimes Act 1961 and the Territorial Sea, Contiguous Zone, and Exclusive Economic Zone Act 1977, which perhaps from here on I\u2019ll just refer to as the economic zone Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EIn section 2 of the Crimes Act, it defines \u201CNew Zealand\u201D as follows: \u201CNew Zealand includes all waters within the outer limits of the territorial sea of New Zealand (as defined by section 3 of the \u2026 Exclusive Economic Zone Act)\u201D. That\u2019s one definition. It\u2019s referring then to the second Act. Section 3 of the economic zone Act then defines \u201Cterritorial sea\u201D as encompassing the sea within 12 nautical miles of a baseline, being the lower watermark along the coast of New Zealand, including the coast of all islands. However, in that same Act, in the economic zone Act, section 2 has a definition of \u201CNew Zealand\u201D, which \u201Cincludes the Ross Dependency\u201D. The statutes, essentially, don\u2019t fit together very well on the Law Society\u2019s read, and neither do they on mine. The question is whether the Ross Dependency counts as being part of New Zealand or not\u2014so whether the lean is on section 3 of the economic zone Act or section 2 of the Crimes Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe second question I have on this part as well\u2014still on new section 2A(3)\u2014is how, if at all, the proposed law applies to Niue. This is another issue that the Law Society raised in section 3 of the Niue Constitution Act. In section 3 of the Niue Constitution Act, they are self-governing. However, section 6 provides that \u201CNothing in this Act or in the Constitution shall affect the responsibilities of Her Majesty the Queen in right of New Zealand for the external affairs and defence of Niue.\u201D The question is: is there an application or not? When I asked this question last time we were considering the bill, the Minister\u2019s response was, \u201CWell, it applies to everyone who is in New Zealand, and that\u2019s what the bill says.\u201D I don\u2019t think that sufficiently answers the two questions\u2014one around the Ross Dependency and the other one around Niue as well. I potentially have some more questions on other parts as well soon, but perhaps I\u2019ll leave that question with the Minister for now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0c098e29c444d35b86b7c6cc341bc6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0c098e29c444d35b86b7c6cc341bc6d\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I know that it has been a little while. I just want to also do a very small recap because, again, my previous question to the Minister hasn\u2019t had a response or acknowledgment yet, and that is around new section 2A(4), inserted by clause 4, regarding persons outside of New Zealand. This is something that we haven\u2019t quite covered. Part of that is to do with how we are particularly looking at new section 2A(4)(c)(iii). There it states that in terms of a person who is outside of New Zealand owing allegiance if the person has family or property in New Zealand, that demonstrates an enduring connection to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI guess the question to the Minister is because when we\u2019re looking at new section 2A, that is of the highest order in terms of statutory interpretation, just behind the interpretation section, but \u201Cenduring connection\u201D is a new term that has just been introduced under this bill. So I\u2019m checking with the Minister how that enduring connection is supposed to be interpreted and what is the degree of enduring connection in relation to the idea of family or property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, the idea is also that family is not a definition that was given under section 2 of the Crimes Act, ergo there needs to be a definition that the Minister is able to provide for family. Property, on the other hand, is a defined term under section 2 of the Crimes Act, but property could also include things like debt or anything like that. So, again, to what sort of extent are we interpreting the relationship of property and enduring connection? That\u2019s my first question to the Minister that I would appreciate a response on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFor my second question I\u2019m just going to move ahead to new section 69(1)(1A), inserted by clause 7. I want to focus on when we\u2019re looking at the idea that the person who owes allegiance to a Sovereign in right of New Zealand commits an offence if the person outside of New Zealand aids, incites, counsels, or procures the doing or omission outside of New Zealand. Now, the aids, incites, counsels, and procures is relatable to section 66 of the Crimes Act around party liability, but in this particular context, I want to check. Now, party liability is an incredibly tricky aspect of the criminal law and has a lot of case law around it, and I just want to check with the Minister: how would this be assessed and how would this be judged in terms of all four? All four are a little bit different. Aiding, for example, is probably the most straightforward perspective, but in this case, particularly when we\u2019re looking at the definition that we\u2019re discussing here under clause 4 on a person who owes allegiance to a Sovereign, how would we see counsels or procures play out, particularly if the counselling and procuring was done offshore or overseas? I\u2019ll leave those two questions to start with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220dadb94c23504a7b8e4dca31a4ff46fd\u0022 data-id=\u002272b57bbd29d54de997868f5ad96ec06f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220dadb94c23504a7b8e4dca31a4ff46fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272b57bbd29d54de997868f5ad96ec06f\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for Mental Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning to the committee. Already, there were some very detailed questions from Vanushi Walters and Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan. To start with, Vanushi Walters: hopefully, persistence pays off, and we\u2019ll see by the critique of your answers. I\u2019ve been advised, under the definition in the bill, if someone is in New Zealand, they owe allegiance unless one of the exemptions relating to the diplomats and enemy aliens apply. This is because, generally, foreign nationals are entitled to the protection of the New Zealand Government while in New Zealand. The nature of allegiance is reciprocal, so the foreign national is subject to and is required to comply with the laws of New Zealand whilst present in our country. The definition is clear as to who this applies to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220dadb94c23504a7b8e4dca31a4ff46fd\u0022\u003ERegarding the Ross Dependency, Niue, and, also, include there the Cook Islands, persons owing allegiance who are outside of New Zealand are clearly defined. These explicitly include persons who hold New Zealand citizenship. Beyond this, it is intended that the status of people in New Zealand\u2019s Realm jurisdictions be determined by the common law. Maybe going a bit more tightly defined, in response to the question, a New Zealander in the Ross Dependency will be covered. The status of a foreigner in the Ross Dependency or Niue will be determined by common law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220dadb94c23504a7b8e4dca31a4ff46fd\u0022\u003EAlso, while I\u2019m on my feet, to respond to Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, with his typical, quite-detailed, punctuated questions: a judge will make the determination of whether a person owes allegiance, as it\u2019s been made a question of law. This was recommended by the Law Society and was added in at select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220dadb94c23504a7b8e4dca31a4ff46fd\u0022\u003E\u201CProperty\u201D is defined in section 2 of the Crimes Act. It is used, through the Crimes Act, and regularly considered and applied by the courts. The term \u201Cfamily\u201D is not defined in the Crimes Act nor under this bill. It will be left to the courts to determine the scope of the term \u201Cfamily\u201D, depending on the facts and circumstances of the case\u2014in particular, whether the family relationship demonstrates an enduring connection to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022de00a078ac744463a947fa5df620710f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de00a078ac744463a947fa5df620710f\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister for early engagement on this. Just a quick follow-up question before I get into an Amendment Paper in my name. I wonder if the Minister could give us some clarity, because there will be those of us from the Cook Islands and Niue who have used our own passports wondering how this would impact us. I heard the Minister saying that it will be left to the common law, but what does that mean? What will that mean for those of us\u2014for example, the 80,000 Cook Islanders\u2014who can actually go through a bit of a process and actually have all the privileges and rights as Cook Islanders, in this case, living in the Cook Islands as well? I have gone through the process myself. My oldest child has. To have that clarity in terms of what the position is with the common law right now for those of us in that particular circumstance would, I think, be good for us to know. It would be good for those of us in the Realm countries to know as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI want to turn the Minister\u2019s attention to my Amendment Paper 431, which is not related\u2014but maybe it is; it\u2019s all kind of related\u2014and in my Amendment Paper, clause 10, new section 78AAA(4A)(a), it says, \u201Cafter \u2018a profession,\u2019 (page 7, line 2), insert \u2018advocacy,\u2019 \u201D and \u201Cafter \u2018or unpaid,\u2019 (page 7, line 3), insert \u2018or in their personal communication,\u2019 \u201D. The purpose of this Amendment Paper is the understanding that there are other roles that people play. Yes, doing things in terms of your normal business or as a part of your job or occupation is fine, but people are often more rounded than that, and the term advocacy is in there around \u201CWhat about people working in human rights areas?\u201D, \u201CWhat about people working in different environmental areas?\u201D, \u201CWhat about people engaging in different activism?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EActivism, in my view, can strengthen our democracy, can improve our democracy, and can improve our processes, so my question is around whether the Minister would, first of all, accept this amendment, and if not, why not? Then, also, how would the Minister unravel and unwrap, if he isn\u2019t keen on accepting this amendment, in terms of making sure that those avenues for advocacy, which are incredibly important, are protected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThe questions could be: how would the Minister see, if this amendment is not accepted, that individuals can engage lawfully in advocacy or activism and will not be unfairly targeted under this particular bill? Could the Minister give us some examples and perspectives around the bill as it is currently worded? Why does it exclude advocacy or personal communications, given that many groups\u2014I mean, I can\u2019t count the number of WhatsApp groups that I don\u2019t want to be part of that I end up being a part of, and Signal groups. The Minister is laughing. He\u2019s probably had his pinch as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3113f1609fd415283f84660c96a2728\u0022\u003EFrancisco Hernandez\u003C/span\u003E: And that\u2019s just the Greens!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7934bc16d504d2cbb02a0e63be1638f\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CAnd that\u2019s just the Greens!\u201D, Francisco Hernandez says to me as well. There has to be some way that people aren\u2019t caught up in this, and if the Minister could provide some light on that, that would be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EAlso, could the Minister clarify how the bill would protect the privacy rights of citizens who use encrypted messaging or secure communication tools just for personal use\u2014not just human rights advocacy or activism, and environmental activism and that kind of thing as well, but just in their everyday life. Some light gathered there would be really interesting. And, I guess, how would the Minister distinguish between legitimate advocacy and community organising, and those types of activities that could actually fall under the phrase of \u201Cimproper conduct for or on behalf of a foreign power\u201D? If the Minister could help to unravel that for the committee, that would be very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u00228d002209b9294731a9fc829f39a6abf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d002209b9294731a9fc829f39a6abf6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have one relatively short point, and it\u2019s around clause 7, new section 69(1B)\u2014this is the penalty provision: \u201CA person who commits an offence against subsection (1A) is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years.\u201D That is the offence that Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan spoke to, which is aiding, inciting, counselling, or procuring, but not conspiring, of course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing is that aiding and abetting, to use the old language, is generally considered a lower offence than doing it yourself. Someone who is engaging themselves in foreign interference would usually be considered more culpable than someone who\u2014if you take \u201Ccounsels\u201D, for example, it is an offence for me to suggest, on behalf of a foreign power, that someone go and spray paint an embassy. That is acting on behalf of a foreign power and doing an illegal act. Doing it is the serious offence; me kind of suggesting, counselling, or even giving them a can of spray paint\u2014that would be aiding. Now, should that act of giving someone who is determined to engage in foreign interference on behalf of a foreign power a can of spray paint be the same penalty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EAs I understand my criminal law, in almost all other situations, it\u2019s not, but here we have a maximum imprisonment of 14 years for suggesting someone troll someone on the internet or offering someone a can of spray paint. They\u2019re probably the obvious ones\u2014the aiding ones and the counselling ones. That, in short, is my question: why is it such a serious penalty for an offence that is not being the main perpetrator but being a party to the offence? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220dadb94c23504a7b8e4dca31a4ff46fd\u0022 data-id=\u00227abc710142c948db8fd1bb6e429aef8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220dadb94c23504a7b8e4dca31a4ff46fd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227abc710142c948db8fd1bb6e429aef8b\u0022\u003EHon MATT DOOCEY (Minister for Mental Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Just responding to, I think, probably the latter questions of Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan, I\u2019ve been advised that the usual rules which apply to party liability generally will be applied to section 69, amended by clause 7. There is nothing unusual about the terms, which are regularly considered and interpreted by the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220dadb94c23504a7b8e4dca31a4ff46fd\u0022\u003ETo start my response to the questions by the member Teanau Tuiono, I would point out\u2014and I\u2019m sure it was discussed during the Justice Committee process\u2014there is no need to include \u201Cadvocacy\u201D in new section 78AAA(4A)(a), inserted by clause 10, because it would introduce unnecessary duplication into the offence. \u201CAdvocacy\u201D is already included to make clear that engaging in advocacy does not by itself provide a sufficient basis to infer a person is intending to, or is reckless as to whether their conduct is likely to, compromise a protected New Zealand interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u00227e90e300cb7349afaf8c5c89d4af287b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e90e300cb7349afaf8c5c89d4af287b\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister for Mental Health for the answers thus far. That was very much appreciated in terms of getting the substance of the last answers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI do want to ask a question about a change in the bill. In the original iteration, under new section 2A(3)(c) in clause 4, the first item, I guess, on that sub-list was \u201Cthe person is an enemy alien\u201D, and that has been removed post - select committee. The new subparagraph (iaa) has been inserted, which says, \u201Cis a citizen of a State that is at war with New Zealand;\u201D. My question is really a consistency one here, as well, in terms of the Minister\u2019s intention about what should be covered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just noting that in the Crimes Act, there\u2019s a definition of \u201Cenemy\u201D in section 73, \u201CTreason\u201D, where the definition of \u201Ctreason\u201D includes \u201Can enemy at war with New Zealand, or any armed forces against which New Zealand forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between New Zealand and any other country;\u201D. I\u2019m just checking whether it\u2019s the Minister\u2019s intent that the scope of liability under section 73 wouldn\u2019t apply in this case, and that that is an active policy decision in terms of the shift from \u201Cenemy alien\u201D to \u201Cthat is at war with New Zealand;\u201D. The proposal from the Law Society was including a definition of \u201Cenemy alien\u201D, so that, I believe, it would be consistent with the Crimes Act provision, but I\u2019m just wanting the Minister\u2019s comment on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe other question I had is on the same issue, but it\u2019s on a different point to the one that a colleague has made. Teanau Tuiono asked about what it means to have that reference to the common law in new section 2A(2)(b), and I am also of the view that that is problematic in terms of its vagueness. But my specific question is around what the common law provisions that would apply are when in relation to repudiation or denouncing citizenship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EGenerally speaking, as I understand it, common law concepts can be relevant to determining liability for alleged criminal offending, both in relation to the defences under section 20 of the Crimes Act and determining the meaning of words or phrases in the definition of offences. However, that is where the common law is both reasonably accessible and it aligns with common law usage, and in the case of repudiation and denouncing citizenship, it isn\u2019t clear\u2014neither of those qualifications are there\u2014which means that it would be very hard for a decision maker to understand the scope of the common law provisions that apply in that case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI mean, the Law Society expressed a view that any prosecution be based only on a renounced allegation risk being an abuse of process, and said that that should be excluded from the relevant offence. However, again, the bill isn\u2019t explicit about this, and there\u2019s this broad statement that relies on the application of the common law. Now, I think precisely for this issue, that is a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe other proposal, given we\u2019re at committee stage, that I just wanted to float with the Minister is the concept of temporary allegiance\u2014so understanding and requiring allegiance on the basis of a person being in the country. I\u2019ve mentioned this in the past, but there was historically an understanding that people on short-term visas could be subject to allegiance requirements for the period that they\u2019re in a country, but otherwise they would not, and that seems in many ways the more sensible way to treat offending, as people can come into the country with eyes wide open. I do have a few more questions, but I\u2019ll leave those ones with the Minister for now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022fef1b694f4c34ec4a9119adb6cdd069c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fef1b694f4c34ec4a9119adb6cdd069c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to call the Hon Ginny Andersen, because I heard someone calling from over there before, and I wasn\u2019t sure which one of you it was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022 data-id=\u00229b115e97bd3d492d8112c71cd8153d80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b115e97bd3d492d8112c71cd8153d80\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I did try earlier, but I was a wee bit slow that time, I do admit. I\u2019ve got some questions for the Minister, and I just want to clarify, because a range of the existing offences that criminalise foreign interference are there already. So we\u2019ve confirmed\u2014and the committee process has been good\u2014that we have existing offences over a wide range of harmful activity, and that may include foreign interference. Those offences criminalise activities that can be undertaken as part of any foreign interference efforts. An example would be offences related to bribery, corruption, blackmail, harassment, and any sort of hostile actions against States, such as even treason or sabotage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EOur current criminal offence regime also accounts for many of those things in the Crimes Act, but it is noted that there are some concerning activities that are not captured by existing offences. I\u2019m really interested in the Minister\u2019s view as to whether there is some additional work\u2014we know the changes in here will add to the suite of actions that can be undertaken by law enforcement and to take action more proactively\u2014but it\u2019s also important to note that as we receive new intelligence, as information is gathered by New Zealand and our security services, I\u2019m interested to know what the ongoing programme of work is to make sure that we keep, I guess, up to date in the way that we\u2019re responding. Those activities are not captured by the existing criminal law, and that\u2019s specified in the regulatory impact statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested to know whether there are some additional things that are not captured within this legislation that the Government is looking at or aware of that we can remain vigilant of and consider how we can make sure our laws are always kept up to date, because this is essentially the first piece of legislation in some time where we\u2019ve updated those previous offences. So I\u2019m interested to know: is there a programme of work ongoing that would review whether these are working, review whether we need to update them, to make sure that there are clear lines of communication between what intelligence we receive and what types of offences are required to make sure that we remain, I guess, resilient or resistant to attempts of foreign interference? I\u2019m interested to hear that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a498204a64042f68c4586c8592992d2\u0022\u003E\u201C[T]he limited nature of [partial] liability allows New Zealand citizens, in some instances, to assist foreign operatives to commit espionage acts in or [even] outside of New Zealand, while remaining immune from criminal liability\u201D. They were the sorts of things that were found in that overarching review that looked at legislative provisions. I\u2019m interested to know whether the Minister considers that the additional offences within this legislation addresses some of those shortfalls that were found in their overarching review; and, if not, what is the Government doing to address those?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0b4a27dadda4ab594ae7937b1c50f8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0b4a27dadda4ab594ae7937b1c50f8a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence): \u003C/span\u003EThank you, Madam Chair, and good morning to members of this committee of the whole House. I\u2019m grateful for the questions that have been posed in my brief time so far in the chair, and I\u2019ve been handed some notes that relate to a question asked by the Hon Dr Duncan Webb. I\u2019ll do my best to address that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll start in reverse order\u2014so with the comments of the Hon Ginny Andersen. First of all, in relation to her point regarding adding to the suite of law enforcement opportunities over time: I think her point is well made that, as our updated understanding, essentially\u2014if I can use that term\u2014in the kinds of threats that might be posed advances, of course, her point is the right one, which is that an ongoing programme, if not a formal programme with a capital P but a process of reviewing or a commitment to understanding how the environment may change over time, would be prudent, such that offences and the regime as a whole could or should be updated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EI would just make the obvious point that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. I think you can feel assured that the Minister and, indeed, the Government as a whole are committed to an ongoing understanding of the threat environment, so to speak, and would be determined, I\u2019m sure, to make any necessary changes in the future\u2014albeit respecting, of course, that, from a civil liberties point of view, we don\u2019t wish to have broader expression of offences than is appropriate at any given moment, because we don\u2019t want to anticipate further types of offending and catch those in a way that would be unreasonable such that people don\u2019t understand the law. Of course, it\u2019s a key element of the rule of law that the law be accessible and knowable and not retrospective, as it might, effectively, be seen to be in the event of very broadly expressed provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EIn terms of Vanushi Walters\u2019 typically astute points: first, in terms of the common law, I take the point that she has made around the fact that it\u2019s ordinarily the case that, to the extent that we would even rely on common law at all to inform a criminal or quasi-criminal regime, we need to have the greatest clarity and accessibility possible. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s anything particular I can add about whether that would be required in the case of repudiation or renouncement provisions. It seems to me sensible that the more accessible and clear such law is\u2014and common law is, by definition, law, albeit of a different variety than statutory law\u2014then that would be more helpful and perhaps might be relied upon more fully, but there isn\u2019t anything, to my understanding, in the legislation that specifies that. I don\u2019t wish to go out on a limb and suggest that that\u2019s the case definitively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EIn terms of temporary allegiance, I\u2019ll simply acknowledge the point of Ms Walters that it would be more sensible, in her view\u2014and I\u2019m sure I\u2019m characterising her comments correctly\u2014to have a temporary allegiance as opposed to a permanent allegiance related to non-permanent people being in New Zealand. I don\u2019t know that I can take that point much further in terms of what the law could or even should say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EAs for the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s comments around penalties and challenging or questioning, at least, the relativity, I suppose, of the offences: my understanding is that the penalty referred to has been carried across from the existing law, and it\u2019s considered as serious as espionage and treason\u2014that\u2019s in relation to section 69.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t know that there are any other comments I could make at the moment that would be helpful, or any comments that I could make that would be unhelpful\u2014members will judge\u2014but I look forward to the rest of the committee\u2019s consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022 data-id=\u00224d4000e9113f471592a7d8ad15d6d97f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d4000e9113f471592a7d8ad15d6d97f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m going to make another short point, and I am leaping ahead but I wanted to do it because it\u2019s an important one. It\u2019s around the substantive offence. The definitions are actually quite hard to find your way around, but I know officials would know them inside out. The guts of it is this: it is an offence against this Act to commit an imprisonable offence on behalf of a foreign power. It also says that it\u2019s not an offence simply to engage in a protest. Now, since this legislation was considered by the Justice Committee, we have seen legislation around protests outside people\u2019s houses, and a disruptive protest targeted at a person in a residential address has become an imprisonable offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203b3a8aad696414a8eb7f03fa4e88c59\u0022\u003EI just want to be clear\u2014and I think, to be perfectly honest, the answer is yes. But the question is this: if, on behalf of a foreign power, I organise or participate in a protest which is intended to be disruptive outside a person\u2019s residence\u2014an ambassador would be the most obvious one, but anyone\u2014am I liable for foreign interference and, therefore, liable to 14 years in prison for engaging in a disruptive protest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022c23b831f9c7e4ba39543b24f29b93bfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c23b831f9c7e4ba39543b24f29b93bfa\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister for his responses. It sounds like there may be some agreement in terms of the status of the common law. I think the problem we have is that the current provisions make it feel like the common law position of retaining your obligations of loyalty may endure even if you have renounced, which I think is problematic in the legislation but\u2014yeah, unfortunate that it won\u2019t be fixed at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI have another suggestion. In terms of understanding whether someone does owe allegiance for the purposes, or not, of criminality, whether there could be merit in including an officially induced error defence? So where an individual has sought or applied for confirmation from the New Zealand Government as to whether they owed allegiance to the Crown in right of New Zealand or not, had been advised that they did not, but were later charged with a potential offence\u2014at this stage, that is another matter that\u2019s potentially uncertain. One can imagine situations where this might actually happen. I think\u2014I could have this wrong\u2014it might be Canada that has a register of third party interests, where people who are in a country and who may be senior members of the Government but they\u2019re not there for diplomatic purposes may register the fact that they\u2019re in the country and the things that they will be doing so that it\u2019s all very clear and transparent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EWe obviously don\u2019t have that, but I can imagine a situation where people would want to be very clear about which role they held, and where people travelling to New Zealand or who are of New Zealand descent but born in another country, people of dual citizenship\u2014we can\u2019t imagine that we would know all the circumstances that are covered. So that just feels to me like something that would be worthwhile exploring, as I\u2019m sure a number of us have a lot of questions around in relation to this bill. If the Minister does think that there\u2019s potential for something like that to be included, I could certainly draft something up on the go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe other question I had is around section 69 amended. This is in clause 7 of the bill, which introduces subclause (1A): \u201CA person who owes allegiance to the Sovereign in right of New Zealand commits an offence if the person, outside New Zealand, aids, incites, counsels, or procures the doing or omission outside New Zealand\u201D\u2014so outside New Zealand is key here\u2014\u201Cby any person not owing allegiance to the Sovereign in right of New Zealand, of any act which, if done or omitted outside New Zealand by a person owing such allegiance, would be [one] of the crimes mentioned in subsection (1).\u201D So that would be a crime inside New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EA couple of questions here. The first is whether it\u2019s intended for the amended offence to capture conduct outside of New Zealand which has no impact inside New Zealand. The way it\u2019s currently drafted, it does look to be that way. So just asking whether that is the intent of the bill and the provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EThe second is a suggestion that one of our submitters had proposed, which is to provide a defence that if it\u2019s lawful in the jurisdiction where it\u2019s done, it shouldn\u2019t be counted within this provision. Right now, the test is whether it\u2019s illegal in New Zealand as opposed to the country itself. So yeah, just clarifying what the intent is behind those two sections, and if there\u2019s appetite for some drafting to make it clear what the intent is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022c23dc55b01814f68bb6261845d50db80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c23dc55b01814f68bb6261845d50db80\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m going to move on to clause 8, and then start on clause 10, noting that clause 10 is one of the most substantive sections of this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFirst, I want to raise a question that the previous speaker, Vanushi Walters, touched on. I think this particular angle would be really good to get the Minister\u2019s elucidation on, and I appreciate both the current Minister in the chair, the Hon Chris Penk, and the previous one, the Hon Matt Doocey, for their engagement and responses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ESo when it comes to clause 8, inserting new section 69A, \u201CParty to certain acts or omissions in New Zealand\u201D, the first thing to note is that under \u201CRelevant act done or omitted\u201D, section 69A(2) says, \u201Cimprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years.\u201D Then, in subsection (4)\u2014under \u201CRelevant act not done or omitted\u201D\u2014it is 10 years. This is when you are looking from a perspective of party liability, as the Minister has mentioned before. But if you are reading it in the context of the Crimes Act, section 76, in terms of treason\u2014as in an individual actively conducted treason, etc.\u2014the penalty is \u201Cnot exceeding 7 years\u201D. And if you\u2019re looking at section 77 of the Crimes Act, for mutiny it is no more than 10 years. So I guess the first question to the Minister is: why then is party liability a doubling of the penalty, as opposed to a person performing it themselves? So that\u2019s my first question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThe second question is more of a question of clarification. So subsections (3) and (4) of section 69A are \u201CRelevant act not done or omitted\u201D. That, to me, reads like it is a strict liability. I want to check with the Minister if it is the intention that when you\u2019re looking at something like this, it is a strict or limited liability for any individual who owes allegiance to the Sovereign in right of New Zealand, when they\u2019re committing an offence under that section, and that they are liable to no more than 10 years of imprisonment. So that\u2019s my second question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI want to start on clause 10\u2014noting that there is a lot more that I would like to say about clause 10, but I\u2019ll limit it to three questions for the time being. So in new section 78AAA, inserted by clause 10\u2014and let\u2019s start with subsections (1) to (4). Now, subsections (1) to (2), \u201CIntentional conduct\u201D\u2014now we\u2019re wading into mens rea territory. From a men\u2019s rea perspective, the intention or knowledge\u2014under subsections (1) and (2)\u2014I kind of understand. But in terms of recklessness, under subsections (3) and (4), I want to check a particular scenario, because recklessness is in the sense of not just simply you acting on it or knowing of it\u2014that there is even a benefit of doubt that the outcome may potentially even happen. So, in this case, when you\u2019re looking at \u201Cengages in \u2026 conduct for or on behalf of a foreign power;\u201D, if we\u2019re looking at a situation where MPs or Ministers or public officials travel to another country and take their parliamentary devices with them without following through on the recommendation of, let\u2019s say, parliamentary security, that would be considered recklessness. So, in those cases, let\u2019s say a public official travels to another country, potentially using a device from here and that got found out, would that be covered now under sections 78AAA (3) and (4)\u2014where that particular official, etc.\u2014now would be charged with recklessness and would be looking at an imprisonment rate not exceeding 10 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ESo those are my three questions for the time being.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3bd72c12b4b44858d7936e00bbd550b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I encourage the member\u2014when you asked about Part 10, you indicated you had some more questions. If you can succinctly do the rest of those questions in another call, I\u2019ll give you one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1a4fdecdedb4bad8c294684a6a5d2ca\u0022\u003EDr Lawrence Xu-Nan\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you. I do have more questions, but, like I said, clause\u00A010 has a lot of different parts. But I would like a follow up question later, on subsection (6) of section 78AAA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022 data-id=\u00227e4f3b9b8a4a438a9cd9ab58c616b687\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e4f3b9b8a4a438a9cd9ab58c616b687\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll give it a go\u2014I\u2019ve got a few different slips of paper here. Returning first to the question posed by the Hon Dr Duncan Webb in relation to peaceful protest that he says could be considered as criminal activity: as he\u2019s rightly noted, there is other legislation that\u2019s passing through this House that would create offences of a criminal nature whereby protesting in residential places could be deemed to be criminal in themselves. The question then is whether that imports into the kinds of ways that we would characterise foreign interference in this, if such activity was conducted on behalf of a foreign power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EAt the risk of stating the obvious: first of all, all elements of that offence must occur, so I don\u2019t think\u2014and I\u2019m sure the member didn\u2019t intend to suggest this, but I do want to assure anyone who is following\u2014that there wouldn\u2019t be any kind of lower bar than that which Parliament is agreeing in relation to those kinds of protest offences against people\u2019s personal property and so forth. The foreign interference element would need also to be satisfied as to whether it was carried for or on behalf of a foreign power and so on. I should also add that the Attorney-General would need to consent to proceedings, so there\u2019s a safeguard in that, which complements the elements of the offence or the threshold set out in new section 78AAB.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EIn terms of some of the comments of Ms Ginny Andersen\u2014in fact, I should flesh out my answer a bit more, having provided a reasonably high-level assurance that it seemed to me that it would be likely that there would be ongoing cross-Government work to address foreign interference into the future. I\u2019m well advised that this includes work that is ongoing, and that it includes, but is not necessarily limited to, the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, the New Zealand Police, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT), intelligence agencies, and various ethnic communities. I\u2019m sure I\u2019m right in saying that these would be quite broad conversations that would also take into account perspectives of civil society and so on. It was earlier this year that the Ministry for Ethnic Communities, as part of an all-of-Government work programme to tackle foreign interference, released resources in 30 languages to better inform communities, in a way that\u2019s understandable and clear to them, about what foreign interference is; how it can affect ethnic communities as well as New Zealand more broadly; and how to report foreign interference should they see it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EIn terms of another comment\u2014I think it was probably unrelated, but I think it was by the same member, the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2014the bill does provide quite a broad set of tools to respond to interference activities. She will know\u2014she in fact has a background in the Police\u2014of investigative tools for police, including the use of existing warrantless search powers to enable police to act swiftly to avoid the loss of key evidence. We can all think about ways that that\u2019s an important consideration, albeit weighed against usual civil liberty protections. There is also a basis for MFAT\u2014the relevant ministry, external facing as it is\u2014to use diplomatic tools to engage with other countries\u2019 representatives about inappropriate conduct covered by the bill. There\u2019s a bit of diplomatic as well as legal consideration there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EAs for the question about the owing of allegiance and whether this would come into play: only if a person has otherwise done the acts constituting espionage or treason. Again, just to highlight, the various different elements would need to be satisfied such that there was the activity that could be characterised as espionage or treason, as well as then considering the status of the person who had been alleged to conduct such activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EIn terms of the suggestion that I think Vanushi Walters has said came from a submitter\u2014and on which she was asking my view\u2014regarding whether we should instead have a bar or a test of whether the conduct complained of is illegal in another jurisdiction as opposed to that of New Zealand: I\u2019m not sure that there is any support in Government circles for that. I hesitate to state a personal view, but perhaps I can venture that that seems to me the wrong way around for New Zealand lawmakers to be considering the question of criminality\u2014an interesting suggestion as it was from said submitter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EAs for the contribution of Lawrence Xu-Nan of the Green Party: the good doctor, as always, makes a number of helpful points. In terms of new section 69A replicating penalty levels of section 69 amended: again, it\u2019s because it covers the same type of conduct. I think I\u2019m right in saying this is a point made previously by our friend Dr Webb and, just to point out, the bill doesn\u2019t amend penalty levels for treason or incitement to mutiny, and adjusting penalties for crimes against New Zealand more generally is out of scope for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EReturning to Dr Xu-Nan: I think he\u2019s referred to section 77\u2014perhaps existing? It must be existing. Why would party liability attract twice as great a degree of liability as opposed to performing the act itself? I might need to take some advice on that; I don\u2019t have a coherent or glib or easy answer for that. Perhaps I\u2019ve misunderstood something in the way that he\u2019s asked the question, which is on me, if so. I\u2019ll commit to coming back to him if I can find out more about that. I wasn\u2019t sure which section he was referring to with the comment around strict liability, or asking if strict liability applied, so I wonder if he could, in his next contribution\u2014assuming he chooses to make another and is allowed to make another, Madam Chair\u2014sort of help me out with that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EFinally, in terms of clause 10 and that new section 78AAA\u2014like the battery\u2014obviously there is a difference between intention, in the general sense, and recklessness, and he\u2019s right to highlight that that is, effectively, a lower bar, albeit still within the ambit of mens rea more generally. I\u2019m not sure that I can advise on the scenario of a member of this House going overseas and not taking the precautions suggested by a relevant security agency of New Zealand in terms of maybe taking a \u201Cburner\u201D phone, just to use that vernacular. I would, of course, encourage all members to act prudently in such situations. I would say, instinctively, that it seems to me that that would be a stretch to indicate necessarily that the member would have conducted interference for or on behalf of a foreign power merely by not taking those precautions. We might characterise that as negligence\u2014maybe in a general sense rather than the legal sense of the phrase\u2014but, certainly, I would be surprised if, on many occasions, that would reach such a bar as this legislation is setting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002292c99d644ef1410eb573cf0df6bc2009\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292c99d644ef1410eb573cf0df6bc2009\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just going to indicate, at this stage, that the Minister has just advised that he is going to seek some advice. I know this committee stage got off to a bit of an interesting start last week, but I feel like it\u2019s had a select committee and it also has no Minister\u2019s amendments. I\u2019m going to give Teanau Tuiono a chance to speak to the amendments that he\u2019s suggesting\u2014and also, Lawrence Xu-Nan. I think there\u2019s a clarification that the Minister has actually asked for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c049895b330b41e78606032436a29001\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c049895b330b41e78606032436a29001\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and particularly to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7c2acb3d42441a5b31cbd0f879454cc\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Sorry, to interrupt the member, but, Madam Chair, I just wanted to bring to your attention that we have been seeking the call on this side of the Chamber, a few times, and haven\u2019t yet had an opportunity. I guess there are a few points within that: there is a requirement (1) to try and ensure proportionality of calls within speakers, and also (2) to ensure that all sides can take part in the debate. Indeed, we\u2019ve had three members that sit on the Justice Committee seeking the call, and there is preference, typically, given to members of the committee. I guess my concern is that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9e8c62a55614585bb2d514f3e4ddb34\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m taking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022315b17d6c6ad44d4be87cf543d574644\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it feels like there\u2019s, perhaps, some pre-emption about what the content of speeches might be on this side, which is not the role of the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215723edc1e7540c0a0c5d5a08726105f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: And often there is. What I would say about that is that often, if there\u2019s a member who genuinely wants a call, they would indicate, or the whip or someone would indicate, to the Chair that that would be the case. If that is the case, I would ask somebody\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022218a404006294898aca960f7f2da16b6\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. I\u2019m happy to yield to the other side if they want to make a contribution and not a closure motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u002275008170ea9c4d09a0b0aa06c7aa5410\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275008170ea9c4d09a0b0aa06c7aa5410\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the opportunity to take a call on this legislation. We traversed it in some detail through the select committee process and had a good opportunity to explore a number of these questions, Minister; particularly interested in this issue of seeking allegiance and who you have allegiance to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003EI think for the average New Zealander out in the community watching this debate this morning, some of these ideas about who has allegiance to New Zealand and who doesn\u2019t may get confusing. I would appreciate some clarification for the average New Zealander\u2014if you live in the wonderful Whanganui electorate, for example, or up in your part of the world where you fit many electorates into the sort of space of the wonderful Whanganui electorate. That aside, for the average New Zealander who is a citizen of New Zealand who may have come from somewhere like South Africa, in the case of my wife\u2014not yet a citizen\u2014but would she owe allegiance? And, say, in my example where I\u2019ve got a British passport but also a New Zealand passport, would I have that allegiance to New Zealand? I just want some clarity on those sorts of typical examples for the average New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00224e5be2844dbe4dd7bf1de8192263b8c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e5be2844dbe4dd7bf1de8192263b8c0\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the member opposite, as well. Just to support what that is around the clarity, we have heard earlier\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b9ecc073e2445dfb7472adddfa5ff6d\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Apologies\u2014I just note the clock has been reset but he yielded so it shouldn\u2019t be. It should be carried on from where the time had been used by Mr Bates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bdb4091b31a44cba6a269f22fbb3dcf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I\u2019m taking this as a new point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220735d81f9be74d13bef138523f07ee04\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a new call if the member yields, Madam Chair. It\u2019s quite clear in Speakers\u2019 rulings that they can yield and that time is taken out of their call, but it\u2019s not a new call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220968aa3418b249e69ab9bc8d23c70549\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure where\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262432ec6b68f440ba14b98bd16d082e9\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I can live with less\u2014with 10 seconds less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c71435b59e874189b5a79c44f02da11e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: About 5 seconds, I\u2019m advised. So carry on, Mr Tuiono.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4895302496e4008b44a08de26267b40\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014this member\u2019s time gets taken out of his call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f7087ec48cf4c4ca46efb9bb770a361\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: She just extended the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6a580667a9c42af954341a687fdd726\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: But I took another call. Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211c268bd245141f1940e8f743b364d90\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, it\u2019s the same call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022371343378e9543e7810f3daa10a7dd62\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Responding to the point of order, we\u2019ll set the clock at 4 minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cea41085b94d4260b36d33161a575042\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: Is this the new call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f625619fc1841598fe3d21b37bdff05\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know how long that call was but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220163f493865845b2aeb9c30858584495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3efd38f853d49c8946e88a9ce872784\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: It was one minute, 30 seconds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b415a18af88b455092b75e486d1f2b7f\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: OK. One minute, 30 seconds\u2014sweet as. Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to support what the member opposite was saying around clarity, we have heard the example I gave earlier around the folks in the Cook Islands and Niue\u2014and, of course, I\u2019m very interested in this because I\u2019m from there\u2014and about what that exactly means, and we did hear that that will be determined by the common law. I do note that there are officials behind them\u2014just for the sake of my relatives in the Cook Islands, on a remote island, wondering if this might actually impact them\u2014if they might have some information about what the current situation is with the common law. That would be really useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EAlso, to support the conversation that we\u2019ve had around reckless conduct, I did note that when Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan mentioned people missing their laptops and iPhones and so on and so forth, I saw a number of people looking around the room wondering if they knew where their laptops and iPhones were, including myself as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI wonder if the Minister could turn his mind to my Amendment Paper 431, which was about making sure that we did define exactly what that advocacy part was, and I do note that they did say earlier that, actually, advocacy and the process was actually covered in the legislation, but there are so many different examples where it\u2019s incredibly grey, where people could, because of involving themselves in reckless conduct, find themselves not liable for three months but actually seven years, because that\u2019s the difference in the carry-through. So if I could get an answer around that, that would be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got another Amendment Paper\u2014Amendment Paper 433\u2014which is about that proportionality aspect. It amends clause 10 and states, \u201CIn\u00A0clause 10,\u00A0new section 78AAB, replace\u00A0subsection (4)\u00A0(page 9, lines 30 and 31) with: (4)A person who commits an offence against\u00A0subsection (3)\u00A0is liable on conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding the sum total of the following: (a) the maximum term of imprisonment for the applicable offence; and (b) an additional 3 months.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a big difference between three months and seven years, and so I wonder if the Minister could give us some clarity around the differences and perhaps look at it from the perspective of the proportionality principles in the Sentencing Act, which I\u2019m sure the Minister is familiar with, and the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. It seems to me that to go from three months to seven years is quite a stretch, particularly if somebody is engaging in reckless conduct, not necessarily sure that they\u2019re doing what they\u2019re doing, and so I\u2019d like to get some comment on that. My Amendment Paper, in my view, would go some way to addressing that concern to make sure that the penalty is actually more proportional and fair, as opposed to automatically adding an extra seven years. So I\u2019d like to get some clarification from the Minister on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI did hear earlier that the reason why this is following through is because treasonable offences have a lot more years added to them, but I wanted to get some clarification from the Minister on the rationale\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6c951587fcd4f2e8100126ffb0dce08\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We are at the point of yield, so we\u2019re just going to reset the clock. Does the member want to continue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022443443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232822e06cb85431aa28b46124a64d832\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Thank you. I wanted to know the rationale for the Minister and the officials behind him around pitching it to those treasonable offences, and then if people are engaging in treasonable behaviour, that makes sense, but if people are engaging in reckless conduct, then surely there should be a way to explain why proportionality is being used in this particular way\u2014from three months to seven years\u2014so I\u2019d like an answer to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022443443\u0022\u003EI also wanted to get the Minister to engage on the Amendment Paper around that proportionality, making sure it\u2019s consistent as well, so I\u2019d like to get some sort of clear answers there as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022 data-id=\u002233cf58a6122e4b1989df4257f6fdd80d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233cf58a6122e4b1989df4257f6fdd80d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve had the benefit of a lot of good discussion around all sides of the committee since I last rose to my feet. I\u2019ll do my best to meet the challenge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EI should start by saying, having in my last contribution sought clarifications from Dr Xu-Nan about a point he\u2019d made previously, that I\u2019ve helpfully had some advice that\u2019s indicated to me not only what he was asking but, actually, suggesting what I might provide by way of response. In terms of the question around strict liability, it\u2019s not a strict liability offence. It would be the case that all the elements of the primary offence would need to be made out, and then, obviously, it would be the usual ruling in criminal law, as opposed to a strict liability regime\u2014that is, there would need to be both the mental element, or the mens rea, as well as the actus reus, or the thing itself. I understand that this relates to the new section 78AAB offence of committing an imprisonable offence for or on behalf of a foreign power. So I hope that that answers the question, and it\u2019s certainly my best effort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EIn terms of the question posed by, again, the same member, party liability penalties are actually already those set by the Crimes Act, and there isn\u2019t a change in that regard. If the member\u2019s view is that those are somehow out of whack, then I suppose that that\u2019s a matter which he could consider further in another context. But within the scope of this legislation, I don\u2019t think that we can bring that forward more usefully than just to acknowledge that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EAs for recklessness, I suppose that the point about that\u2014again, I\u2019m indebted to those who are much more knowledgable in this space than me, which is many people, but it\u2019s certainly those in our Chamber today. As to recklessness, it would require in the usual way that the person would recognise a real possibility\u2014or, in other words, foresee the risk\u2014that their actions would likely compromise a protected New Zealand interest, and then, having regard to that risk, that those actions would be unreasonable. I think, going back to that point about travelling with phones without all the necessary protections as recommended\u2014it seems to me that that would be unlikely in any given case to result in a prosecution against said member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EAs for the question posed by my colleague and friend Carl Bates\u2014\u201CMr Everywhere Man\u201D, but particularly of the Whanganui electorate\u2014I think that he raised a really interesting and helpful point for people to understand in layperson\u2019s terms, perhaps, the effect. Certainly, there are many of us, including many in the House\u2014and, actually, other members have alluded to family or even personal situations of what might appear to be a split allegiance. For those of us who have other Commonwealth passports, and I myself have British and Australian ones in the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf22f6a19a0a47e38c1a4eb585ad0ecd\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Greedy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ac31148ed2e43b6bad37d20a3b50f66\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014collection, as well as New Zealand, I hasten to add\u2014getting greedy. But if there are any Canadian friends of influence who are watching, you\u2019ll know what I\u2019m going to ask you aboot, eh? But I know, of course, that that is the case for many people in New Zealand, whether they were born overseas or have some other connection such that they enjoy different connections to other nations. Of course, the question is complicated, or more complex, in the case of Realm nations or other Pacific nations with whom we have particular arrangements, but certainly the intent of the legislation is to clarify the common law and provide greater prosecution security, and, really, at its base it is to ensure that everyone in New Zealand is able to be prosecuted for espionage\u2014for the relevant acts, obviously\u2014as proven, unless that person has diplomatic or consular immunity, as defined elsewhere in legislation, and/or that person is a foreign national, or the child of one, of a State at war with New Zealand. So there are some pretty serious but niche ways in which this could apply to someone in this country who is acting for or on behalf of a foreign power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EFinally, in terms of Amendment Paper 433 in the name of Teanau Tuiono, the proposed penalty reduction we don\u2019t think is appropriate. Our starting point, and the position of the Government, is that the current penalty is appropriate and consistent. I wouldn\u2019t wish to suggest that having the foreign interference element merely topping up the other offence would be appropriately punishable by only an additional three months, as opposed to the seven years that\u2019s put forward. But it\u2019s the case, I think I\u2019m right in saying, that, consistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act\u2014as the member quite rightly points out\u2014we\u2019ve specified that there be a proportionality in terms of that offence and the foreign interference element. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022 data-id=\u002272f62c12109a4cd38b1a7b8bddfa7179\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc18fca1517544d48a85a448eabd4308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272f62c12109a4cd38b1a7b8bddfa7179\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c0a567b14b534619baacbd7b19f0aee9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002272ce1c5c8b294e16b15c5523270c938e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272ce1c5c8b294e16b15c5523270c938e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Teanau Tuiono\u2019s amendments to clause 10, new section 78AAA(4A)(a), set out on Amendment Paper 431 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220c0b61c820394743a4ad7d7a8caf7362\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd80a12de2ca41868a2fbac6483ead00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd80a12de2ca41868a2fbac6483ead00\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Teanau Tuiono\u2019s amendments to clause 10, new section 78AAA(5)(a)(ii), set out on Amendment Paper 432 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fb9012c9ee0749e189c21ef9d99fa022\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4ba38d8d29d4fb3b4f8d2db70d3180a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4ba38d8d29d4fb3b4f8d2db70d3180a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Teanau Tuiono\u2019s amendments to clause 10, new section 78AAB(4), set out on Amendment Paper 433 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002209a05c27593047f1ac90bfc410e2f2ab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002244efd8bf56eb4deab27cb3bc86d9b5b6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000217\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 68, Noes 55.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022639f0451e9654840a02c6fbc731a4646\u0022\u003EPart 2  Minor and consequential amendments to other Acts, and the Schedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b84a2a14177e42f3abe73bd355b159a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b84a2a14177e42f3abe73bd355b159a7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clause 16, \u201CMinor and consequential amendments to other Acts\u201D, and the Schedule. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00220f07d1adbf44472c9b36fb8e1d9add0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f07d1adbf44472c9b36fb8e1d9add0a\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to seek your guidance because before, when we were debating Part 1\u2014I didn\u2019t want to interrupt when we were voting\u2014you did mention that you were going to give me a call to finish\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3f3eb4ed6f647af84d158085131d743\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: And then the Minister said that he had understood the clarification that I was going to give you the call for, and then answered, so it was solved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac5add4a52a341f4a168e9229fa612c2\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I thought the call you were going to give was because I indicated that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294cffc52c4ce437293fb5dffed33ee03\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I indicated there was a call for clarification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a75d6675ad44ea18727a8791b591e31\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00221003b6d533ec4706ae130e345f35d323\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221003b6d533ec4706ae130e345f35d323\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: So this is on Part 2, right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u002233e3698abdb24a7ba6c7e1a2fab1bc22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233e3698abdb24a7ba6c7e1a2fab1bc22\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So, in terms of Part 2, what we\u2019re seeing, particularly around focusing on the insertion of new section 78AAA and 7AAB into various other legislation\u2014and I just want to check with the Minister, in terms of how that interacts with some of the legislation here, and I think, particularly, I want to focus on the Criminal Procedures Act but also the Human Rights Act. Can I check with the Minister that it is my understanding in this section that after section 78, it says, for example, under the Human Rights Act, insert 78AAA and 78AAB\u2014however, would that, then, preclude section 78A and 78AA as a part of that? I just want to check with the Minister on why, then, those two particular clauses were precluded as part of the insertion into this area as well, noting that there\u2019s a basis that both 78AAA and 78AAB are also relying on the fact that there is a 78A and 78AA within the legislation. So, in those kind of cases, what sorts of allowances are given for the other sections? I will start with that, because, I think, you know, if the Minister\u2019s able to answer that short question, it will help us unpack a lot of the other additional amendments in this particular section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWhile the Minister\u2019s thinking, just continuing on in terms of the fact that when we are looking at this section, and I pulled up on the Human Rights Act, and I think what\u2019s probably pertinent here is the Human Rights Act, the Ombudsmen Act, and the Privacy Act, as a start. For those sections that were mentioned in Human Rights Act, 130; Ombudsmen Act, 26; and Privacy Act, 90, is the intention, then, that those particular sections, then, whether there was an exemption of sorts in terms of how new section 78AAA and 78AAB are going to be interacting with those particular sections? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s vital that when we\u2019re looking at this particular part, noting the number of additional bills that are affected by Part 2 of this legislation, we don\u2019t inadvertently, I guess, challenge or put in\u2014I guess \u201Cchallenge\u201D is a good term in terms of some our fundamental rights under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and also the Human Rights Act\u2014the allowances for people when they are being, I guess, charged with any of the new additional crimes under 78AAA and 78AAB. I\u2019m particularly thinking of how does this thing interact with the limitation that\u2019s being placed on this bill and on individuals in Aotearoa New Zealand under section 5 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. So I just want to check with the Minister in terms of that interaction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u0022e981016cd3e943a1a4dd313121341c7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e981016cd3e943a1a4dd313121341c7e\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to add to the checks we\u2019re doing in terms of the other Acts referred to in the Schedule, my question is in relation to the Bail Act changes. The current heading of section 9 in the Bail Act references \u201Ctreason or espionage\u201D. It\u2019s, essentially, a restriction on bail if there are charges on those two matters, and it replaces that with certain offences. The certain offences look to me to be the full set of offences under new section 78AAA of the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill, which relate to \u201CImproper conduct for or on behalf of foreign power to compromise protected New Zealand interest\u201D. These are, of course, just cases where charges have been brought. There\u2019s not necessarily a plea in there and no guilt found yet. There are other provisions in the Bail Act further down\u2014sections 9A, 10, 11, and 12\u2014which also impose other types of restrictions\u2014and I would say lower restrictions\u2014on the granting of bail. I wonder if the Minister had considered whether it would be useful to split the alleged offences that the person has been charged with so that, if someone is a third party and they were assisting, for example, they may fall into further restrictions on bail in certain cases. That would be a less restrictive application of the Bail Act restrictions, whereas if someone was charged with a more serious offence on the basis of the facts, then they could very validly sit within current section 9 of the Bail Act. I\u2019m trying to find a way just to split how those offences would be treated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022 data-id=\u00228a92d9417c3844a7b60d5dce2e113054\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a92d9417c3844a7b60d5dce2e113054\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the engagement so far on this particular part, which impacts Part 2 and the Schedule, I\u2019d like to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to Amendment Paper 434, in my name. I\u2019ve been thinking about a scenario where you could have a human rights advocate who shares information online as a part of their work, as a part of their mahi, and under the current bill, as I read it, if authorities suspect the work that they are doing is related to foreign interference, they could conduct a warrantless search of their home or devices, even if there\u2019s no immediate threat. The concern there is overreach, and with the amendment in my name, Amendment Paper 434, authorities would need to apply for a warrant, giving a judge the authority to check whether the search is justified. This protects people from excessive or unnecessary intrusions or overreach by the authorities. It was a common theme that came to the select committee, that we were overreaching with this legislation and not necessarily focusing on the issues or finding a way to actually deal with the very real issues that that some of the submitters were bringing in as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI guess my question to the Minister is around the justifications for allowing warrantless searches for such broad offences under new sections\u00A078AAA and 78BBB and without additional safeguards\u2014if I\u2019m missing something, could the Minister explain what potentially those safeguards would be? I think it would be important to have some safeguards in there. The right to freedom of expression, the right to be able to have your say, is an important right, and I know that has been expressed by all members of all corners of this Chamber as well. If we\u2019re going to limit things, then I think it\u2019s really important that the committee understands that and that the people, in general, understand that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EI also think about it in the context of journalists. They\u2019ve got to be able to talk to as many people as possible. Could the Minister also clarify how the current proposal might impact journalists, activists, and advocacy groups but, in this particular circumstance, the impact on journalists? We know journalists play an important part in making sure that our democracy is robust. Yes, they ask us awkward questions, and we don\u2019t like it as politicians, but that\u2019s an important part that they play\u2014an important part that, I think, the algorithm can\u2019t do as well. The engagement of journalists and the work that they do\u2014where they need to talk to a wide variety of different people\u2014shouldn\u2019t open them up to a warrantless search.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EIn my Amendment Paper, the suggestion is to delete the amendments to the Search and Surveillance Act 2012 in the Schedule\u2014on page 15, lines 11 to 14 on the select committee report. In that way, from our perspective, this ensures that it allows for that extra level of scrutiny of having to go to a judge to make sure that the search that is going to happen is actually warranted. If the Minister could focus on the reasons why he thinks, or the Government thinks, that that extra layer is not warranted, it would be good to hear that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EJust to recap, my questions are around the safeguards available and the protections for journalists, in particular. They have a particular role, an important role. What are the safeguards that are in place to make sure that they can do their job and not be subject to a warrantless search? The example that I gave earlier around human rights advocacy is also incredibly important work, which does require them to talk to people, even people that we might not like, potentially\u2014what\u2019s in place for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5921c9f295441b0ba570475a71a860e\u0022\u003EIn my view and in the view of the Greens, this amendment would go some way to addressing those concerns, giving that extra layer of having a judge make sure that there was a warrant there, as well, because, generally, when we look at the context of this bill as it is, there are issues around proportionality, which we have raised, and there are issues around overreach as well. There are issues that need to be dealt with and grappled with, but I think there needs to be clarity about how this will, specifically, actually do that. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022499d887f8e5e4472871d9de045a7392d\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. I seek leave to correct a vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u00226e26532ef39a4ce9b2e6ffe411f380dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e26532ef39a4ce9b2e6ffe411f380dd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244281fd7fc7b4e9dbceb6025f4551f2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299bf3d3980ec4f8bb56ac8da84d96cf0\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Labour is in support of Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022 data-id=\u002225fd5490e0de4a0e9f2e3d409f4c04c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225fd5490e0de4a0e9f2e3d409f4c04c6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022 data-id=\u0022f80abe94dbcb45c3b3f1c907c2e785de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f80abe94dbcb45c3b3f1c907c2e785de\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to members who have contributed in this relatively narrow second part\u2014obviously, consequential amendments. I think some of the points that were made by Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan and, actually, also by Vanushi Walters, really just go to the fact of cross-referencing in the nature of consequential amendments\u2014more particularly, in relation to the New Zealand Human Rights Act, though, as our friend mentioned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003ESo section 78AA amended by clause 11, (Wrongful communication \u2026 of classified communication), and section 78A amended by clause 12, (Wrongful communication \u2026 of official information). These are already referenced, so the new provisions are included to provide consistency. So it is, for example, that where espionage can be charged, the new offences can also be charged, which is what you would expect and hope for the two regimes to be coherent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EIn terms of Ms Walters\u2019 point around the Bail Act, I think I understand your point as being that, you know, there could be a separation or a split. But I think it\u2019s in the nature of, you know, a bail regime. Of course, there would merely be a charging as opposed to a conviction for offence, which is why the question of bail would even come up in the first place. So on behalf of the Government, I don\u2019t think we\u2019ve got any appetite to rework any of the ways that those two pieces of legislation would connect with each other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EAs to Teanau Tuiono\u2019s point, I mean, I\u2019m sympathetic at a high level. Of course, we want freedom of information and a free and democratic society. But, of course, as always, there are balance of rights considerations we can make, or competing rights we could even say, or, to characterise differently again, a balance of responsibilities. Clearly, the fourth estate plays an important role, as the member acknowledges, even if it\u2019s not convenient to those of us whom they think they are holding to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EBut nevertheless, I think it\u2019s entirely possible to separate good investigative journalism on the one hand, for example, and conducting certain activities as defined on behalf of or for a foreign power\u2014whether one analyses the importance of freedom of information or expression from the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, section 14, for example, or that narrative of holding those in power to account. Nevertheless, I think this legislation is reasonably tight around the purpose of what we\u2019re trying to achieve, which is to react to the possibility of foreign interference as opposed to a chilling effect on speech more generally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EThe member asked whether the search provisions are warranted. I think he meant in that general sense of justified, as opposed to warrants that are put forward in terms of search powers. On that note, then, I can provide some assurance either way, actually, that the bill introduces no new search powers; instead it simply relies on existing powers in the Search and Surveillance Act. Warrantless search powers for espionage and the offence of wrongful communication, retention, or copying of classified information are included. These are quite analogous with certain categories, at least for foreign interference activity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EI should point out, just again, more generally, existing powers would be exercised in a way that would have to reflect the case being of great urgency and requiring immediate action and there being reasonable grounds to believe that the evidence relating to the relevant offence is at the place to be searched. So it can\u2019t be, as we always say, a fishing expedition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EJust to conclude that matter, courts also apply a warrant preference rule, which is to say, even though there may be the ability to conduct a warrantless search, if there was sufficient time for a warrant to be obtained, then it should, or the court may determine that it would need to be. Ultimately, of course, the consequence of all this is that if a warrantless search is conducted in a way that offends these types of rules, then the evidence might be inadmissible, which is the ultimate consequence for those wishing to find the evidence to be able to, you know, make a case of this nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u00228d08902052f745ef89321f88be45754a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d08902052f745ef89321f88be45754a\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, I\u2019ve got two very short, concise questions to finish this part of Part 2. The first question\u2014thank you to the Minister for responding to my question\u2014I want to check, particularly,  is what the Minister was saying in terms of the Human Rights Act and the Ombudsmen Act. Again, noting that the section that we are discussing here is privileged proceedings and these two are now 78AAA and 78AAB, and are now exempted from such privilege, as indicated in those sections. Can I check with the Minister how this then also interacts with those two agencies? So we\u2019re looking at the Human Rights Commissioner or Commission, and the Office of the Ombudsman when it comes to our obligation under the Optional Protocol Convention against Torture, and particularly as those two agencies are in charge of or are part of the national preventative mechanism. When it is going to be things that touch on their role as the national preventative mechanisms, would that then also mean that they have to break privilege by the inclusion of these two additional sections, under those two particular Acts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s my first question. The second question is also coming to the Search and Surveillance Act. Thank you to the Minister for that response but my question is: what we saw in terms of the power granted under the Search and Surveillance Act, as part of the Gangs Legislation Amendment Bill, and the subsequent amendment of that is that when a person\u2019s being searched and if they found something that was incidental that wasn\u2019t part of the original intention of that search, that material can still be used for them to be charged with additional offences. I want to get reassurance from the Minister that the similar thing then wouldn\u2019t be happening in this case with the inclusion of 78AAA and 78AAB. Because, again, those are kinds of the things that potentially will affect or could have a chilling effect for ethnic communities, quite severely, if people are being targeted for additional things; but then when there is a search, either warranted or warrantless materials were found and how that would then interact with the new offences created under this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022 data-id=\u002277a3d9d777b747dc84fb66adee01d998\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef044682c0bd4c8885c626cbc9acb678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277a3d9d777b747dc84fb66adee01d998\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002226f23682195946cd9e77f0ef9462aa80\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228a8d1231556b4c14903f3466ffbbb660\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022556208b4b141483296de7a0ca4461e6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022556208b4b141483296de7a0ca4461e6b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Teanau Tuiono\u2019s amendment to the Schedule set out on Amendment Paper 434 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c5c74de070964cdc9afb814389016ee4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222662195fa1554ad29f0a194ab8dc1333\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b19cd8423f674b36886771df62bbe016\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002243dc824146674ec6b59c583311a7fc5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243dc824146674ec6b59c583311a7fc5c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the final debate. This is the debate on clauses 1 and title, \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2b6c2c9825f4007a2506eae057b8715\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2b6c2c9825f4007a2506eae057b8715\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to ask the Minister some questions around clause 2, with regards to the commencement\u2014noting that the commencement is the day after Royal assent\u2014both in terms of the conversations that we\u2019ve had during this committee stage on some of the uncertainties around the definition of some of the clauses but also, I guess, the breadth of what could potentially be covered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFor example, while this covers everything, what is, then, the scope of what we considered? Some of the scenarios weren\u2019t actually teased out in the select committee as well. One of the examples of that is, for example\u2014when we\u2019re looking at the commencement date being the day after Royal assent, in the context of some of the things we have seen\u2014the way that we\u2019ve seen the FBI, potentially, as a foreign agency interfering with Aotearoa New Zealand. We have seen things like the Atlas Network, as a public organisation, interfering with some of the things in New Zealand. We have seen trans-exclusionary radical feminists coming from other regions, such as the UK, putting harm on some of these things. These are the potential scenarios that are considered under new sections 78AAA and 78AAB. It doesn\u2019t seem to me that having the commencement date as the day after Royal assent is something that allows our court system and the justice system to fully engage with this new offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ENow, the previous Crimes Act bills we have seen that have gone through the House have all\u2014as far as I can remember, and the Minister may be able to correct me\u2014had a commencement date three or six months after Royal assent, but this one does not. Considering that this is creating a new criminal offence, which is incredibly serious\u2014imprisonment of up to 14 years is a serious matter\u2014I ask the Minister to consider doing just a little bit more work both in terms of teasing out some of the scenarios but also giving the Ministry of Justice and, as the Minister mentioned before, the Ministry for Ethnic Communities, who have had some work done in terms of the education programme, the ability to actually let the public know what the new offence is going to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EAgain, I\u2019m speaking as someone from an ethnic community, and for those for whom English is not their first language and particularly for those who may not be able to speak English fluently, this new offence may be meaningless to them until something comes up. Because the commencement date is the day after Royal assent, immediately it then creates an offence. I do ask the Minister to consider seriously whether there can be a grace period that allows the ethnic communities, in particular, to understand what the new offences are and what the consequences are. That\u2019s going to be my only contribution for this section, but I think it\u2019s a really, really important one for the Minister to consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022 data-id=\u002253973c9553d64e0db90a7c4a3152a8ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253973c9553d64e0db90a7c4a3152a8ad\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I also have some concerns about the time in which the bill will become law. I\u2019m mostly concerned about young people and the behaviour of young people and what they would expect to be an offence or not, just remembering that we do have some quite broad provisions here, including the new section 69A in clause 8, which includes the offence of aiding, inciting, or counselling\u2014so not necessarily being the one who passes on information but being that one step back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EI note that when we were discussing the Schedule to the bill, one of the amendments was an amendment to Schedule 1A in the Oranga Tamariki Act. Schedule 1A is a specified list of offences for young people aged 17, and so these are still young people and, yes, there is a list of offences that they would be subject to. It adds this bill to that space. I imagine that there would be a number of young people who are just starting to explore the world of protest and international affairs and who are understanding how to interact with international issues and with conflict, and, ideally, it would be good for us to ensure that they are well-educated on what this means for them, whether they are the individual who passes on information or whether they are one step back and they are counselling, inciting, or\u2014under those provisions that I\u2019ve read earlier\u2014directing someone else outside the country to do something or to pass on information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022157391dc1d004f11a47abde46bc77fec\u0022\u003EIdeally, I wouldn\u2019t argue this for all pieces of legislation, and I think it does make sense for many of our bills to become law immediately. I do think that there are times when we need to consider whether there\u2019s a valid reason why we would want to have a period of education to ensure that it\u2019s not catching people who otherwise wouldn\u2019t step into this area, at all. I ask whether that is a consideration for the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022 data-id=\u0022cab6f7e793124f608298c7ffba271e64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cab6f7e793124f608298c7ffba271e64\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just really briefly, my understanding is that the issues have been well articulated and canvassed, including by agencies, through the six-month Justice Committee process\u2014for which I congratulate all members involved\u2014I think, as well, with some of that outreach conducted by the Ministry for Ethnic Communities. Respectfully, I think it\u2019s unlikely that there won\u2019t be a level of understanding that\u2019s necessary in the community as to what the implications of the new legislation might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002271f12c4b44b448a087c615d97d111286\u0022\u003EI respectfully disagree with Dr Lawrence Xu-Nan in terms of a lack of clarity within the legislation. As to courts having the ability to consider how these scenarios might play out, the scenarios that they will see are cases that will be brought before them in due course, and, on that basis, they will have the opportunity to consider how the law should be applied. It\u2019s no grace period; otherwise, we provide a window of opportunity\u2014a mixed message\u2014in terms of the kind of behaviour that we consider to be appropriate in this country. All relevant parties have had an opportunity to understand it, and we look forward to it coming into effect as soon as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u00228710771e648c43748590e86075296570\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228710771e648c43748590e86075296570\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c1b5f3ea450b4ed59af5d483fbe15d47\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c9fbb42f3d3b44b09c7c14232d905c2a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228b57b33d79af4782b615d35efe2f54c6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11;New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000264\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000265\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002206800ddbd510418f959f3a0f659bd8ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206800ddbd510418f959f3a0f659bd8ab\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The committee has further considered the Crimes (Countering Foreign Interference) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d43c69b61930498d9602235ed1b60516\u0022\u003EEducation and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a13a09230ea24024a2ecad3ffda679f4\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022 data-id=\u00222852a93bb3f540cbadc4a65b57159d5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222852a93bb3f540cbadc4a65b57159d5e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b05298d233114114a3080f0d123f4b7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc65c904ba4d466aac4aab9d88fb772f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d862c89c089142c9af5be174375258c6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, I want to take you back to a convention centre in Wellington in mid-2023, filled with around 500 representatives of early childhood centres up and down the country. It was a pre-election political briefing. Astonishingly, representatives of the governing parties hadn\u2019t shown. As the meeting went on, I started to appreciate why that might be. The people in this room\u2014salt of the earth people, often small-business people who work hard, invest to ensure the next generation of young New Zealanders are cared for and ready for school\u2014were ropable. They were tired of the regulatory overreach of the Byzantine rules and the abuses of power that they perceived coming from the Government. They said, \u201CAll I wanted to do was help young children discover their potential. And all I actually do is fear the regulator that is supposed to work for all of us. After all, it\u2019s our taxes that pay for them.\u201D I looked at this and I thought: surely we can do better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EFast forward a little way, and the Ministry for Regulation was formed. Its first sector review involved going out and hearing from people, like the ones in that room that day, and asking them: what is it that has made it so difficult and so frustrating to do what should be a very rewarding and positive job, and mostly is? The Ministry for Regulation assembled a long dossier of concerns. It assessed them against the need for sensible regulation. It has come up with, broadly, three changes that Cabinet signed off. One is a simplification of the rules, and a binning of rules that make no sense; that\u2019s happening separately from this bill. Another is transferring the responsibility for regulating to the Education Review Office\u2014who are very good at doing this, in my view\u2014away from the Ministry of Education, which I don\u2019t believe has done a consistently good job; it tends to depend on the region. It also means that the regulator is separate from the policy maker, which is generally good practice for regulation. Those are two parts of the change coming out of this sector review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a third part which is encapsulated in this bill. It is setting out that there should be a person called, in this case, the director of regulation. It\u2019s not a new position; there\u2019s a person that does something like this. But they\u2019re going to actually have their responsibilities set out in legislation, and they\u2019re going to have the rights of people who run early childhood centres set out in legislation, and the purpose of regulating set out in regulation. In particular, things like enabling choice for parents is in this legislation. Things like ensuring childhood safety is in this legislation. Things like ensuring those things with the least possible regulation so that the people like the ones in that room aren\u2019t tied up in endless red tape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EWhere the rubber hits the road\u2014and I happen to be the Minister responsible for early childhood education\u2014there\u2019s a wonderful place called Country Kindy, in Manawat\u016B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266d6872f24ce4f77ba5ac75f0fc62c76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221815d0b683ca47bea10594e2b27810bd\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9b76367ff1e4386be8ffede1bdb87d9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: These are salt of the earth people. There\u2019s the member for Rangit\u012Bkei right there, and I\u2019m sure she knows it well. These people were harangued, harassed, shut down to within an inch of their life. As the Minister responsible, I was very keen to intervene. To this day, I don\u2019t fully understand what they were accused of doing wrong, because when I brought in the secretary to ask\u2014the former secretary, that is\u2014she didn\u2019t have a good answer. I went into Country Kindy and was almost suffocated by a hug from the person in charge, because they were so relieved that this harassment had ended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EWell, what this legislation sets out to do is give people like her the ability to tap on the sign and say, \u201CYou regulate for a purpose. We pay your taxes.\u201D Child safety\u2014absolutely, 100 percent; 200\u00A0percent. Giving parents choice and information and making it clear what\u2019s needed and what\u2019s going on: absolutely. But overreach and abuse of power and overburdensome regulation and red tape that stops us doing our real job: that\u2019s yesterday\u2019s news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222fee4f49a15c4795a3ba0d173a43c15c\u0022\u003EThis is another example of how a Government can hear people\u2019s concerns and aspirations out in the community, formulate a plan, and bring it to fruition in this House. It\u2019s one of many examples that we\u2019re talking about just this week, that makes me very proud to be part of this Government. It makes me proud to be a member of the ACT Party, and it is going to make, I believe, a lot of people even prouder to work in the early childhood sector, because this statute will ensure that they are treated, by law, with the respect that they deserve. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022 data-id=\u00227116f2388dac41269f54462f83edee74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227116f2388dac41269f54462f83edee74\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, we heard there, in the first sentences that the Minister spoke, exactly the true intent of what this particular bill does. Unfortunately, that was reflected very much in the submissions which also identified the true intent. I just want to start by talking to one of those submissions that came through from the Office of Early Childhood Education, who said, \u201CLet\u2019s be honest; it\u2019s misleading to say this bill is designed to improve outcomes for children and family. Its true intent is to satisfy service providers and their lobbyists who want a much lighter-touch approach to monitoring and enforcement.\u201D The select committee had a number of submissions to this bill\u2014107 submissions in fact\u2014of which 78 of those submissions\u201478 of 107 submissions\u2014opposed the bill. They opposed the bill because this was not putting children at the centre of this piece of legislation. In fact, it is such a dangerous change to what we will see and have ever seen in the early childhood sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the regulations has been narrowed so much in this bill and in what it is doing that it does not put children at the centre of their education. Just think about that for a moment: children in the early childhood sector not being at the centre. Suddenly, the purposes of regulation have been changed so much that we\u2019ve taken children away. Let\u2019s just hear, with your indulgence, what the current Act says about the purpose of current early childhood education (ECE) regulation: that it \u201Cis to regulate an early childhood education system where all children are able to participate and receive a strong foundation for learning, positive well-being, and life outcomes by\u2014(a) setting standards to support quality provision and learning; and (b) supporting the health, safety, and well-being of children; and (c) enabling parental choice by providing for licensing and funding of different types of provision.\u201D So, that\u2019s a service where the regulations, currently, ensure that there is quality provision that supports solid learning for those young people and children being put at the centre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EThis bill has made a significant change; a very disappointing significant change. This bill changes that to: \u201C[it will] regulate an early childhood education system to\u2014(a) set and implement minimum standards to provide for quality early childhood education that allows all children to establish strong foundations for learning, well-being, and life outcomes; and (b)\u201D\u2014and this is where it\u2019s critical\u2014\u201Csupport the choice of parents and caregivers to participate in the labour market.\u201D It\u2019s taking a labour market approach to early childhood education, and that\u2019s exactly what the Minister just outlined in his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EThat is absolutely worrying in an educational context in this country. I cannot understand why members on that side of the House have not fought back more about that. Our youngest and, as research shows, our children with the most potential to learn, are our under 5-year-olds, those in their first 2,000 days. If we get it right as a country, we have the most potential to make the biggest difference in a young person\u2019s life, but because of the ideological nature and thoughts of one Minister, we are making a change here that will have a very detrimental impact on that. I urge everyone in the House to think about that and take that very, very seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003ENow, really interestingly in the Minister\u2019s address here this morning\u2014which was very, very short, I should say, for something that\u2019s an incredibly important piece of legislation\u2014she talked about the input from the providers. Well, I can tell you that during the select committee process, we heard from teachers, centre managers, and parents who felt like their voice had been marginalised in that discussion and in that consultation. They felt like they had not been heard at all. I should add another group to that: the early childhood academics, who are some of the world-leading academics in early childhood in this country; people that are well respected around the world and who also feel that their voices have been marginalised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003ERevising the purpose of early childhood regulation and legislation\u2014and this is also important\u2014was not part of the original terms of reference for the review. We understand, from the Ministry of Regulation, that it was not up for debate in that part of the process. Where people did have their input, they didn\u2019t realise that this part of the purpose was actually going to be changed in legislation. Now, again, that seems like a little bit of a grubby process that has happened here. That\u2019s the second time, where we\u2019ve had an education bill put up in this particular session, that similar processes have happened. It isn\u2019t any wonder why the education sector are starting to push back around what is happening to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EIt is really, really important that children must remain the centre of ECE regulation. We heard that time and time again in select committee, not only from teachers and not only from those heavily involved in the sector but also from the parents who are involved heavily in the sector but also want complete quality for their young people and the provision that is there for their young people. They said, \u201CLook, we understand that this helps us get back into the labour market, but that should not be at the cost of quality.\u201D That\u2019s exactly what this bill is setting up. It is setting up at the cost of quality and quality provision. We know, from overseas research, that there have been dire consequences for similar changes that have been made in other jurisdictions. Be that on people\u2019s heads who support this bill, if that is going to be the outcome here. From what we are seeing with this ideological approach, I would hate to think that, as a Parliament, we were setting our young people up to be in a really unsafe situation. This is exactly what we are doing if we pass this piece of legislation into law. We heard that from so many different sources during the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EAnother part of this piece of legislation\u2014I just want to finish within my final part of this contribution\u2014that came up time and time again, from many of the submitters, was the omission of Te Tiriti o Waitangi in this legislation. We heard, \u201CLook, it would be too hard because it\u2019s in the primary legislation.\u201D Actually, this bill is setting it up to water that down because it is not there and not being given the direct notice that it should be. The bill does not recognise M\u0101ori as tangata whenua nor ensures M\u0101ori participation in decision making. Now, that is of huge concern. When we have got k\u014Dhanga reo and puna reo that come under the guise of this bill, that is of huge concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EAgain, I implore members on the other side of the House to think how those parts of our early childhood system are world leading. I have been in other parts of the world where Ministers have said to me: \u201CYou have the gold standard of what you\u2019re doing with k\u014Dhanga reo and puna reo. Teach us how to do it.\u201D We should be proud. We should be setting that up and standing that up, but instead, we\u2019re taking that away by not making that a big part of the provision of this bill. We are absolutely watering down M\u0101ori rights and their values and their perspectives within ECE by what we are doing here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022099aa85f1a1b44c2ac1ca0640bb021ca\u0022\u003EOnce again, that is absolutely disgraceful in this particular space. I absolutely implore members on the other side to think very seriously about what they are doing here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022dea597d149dd408998b141cb2f69e7ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dea597d149dd408998b141cb2f69e7ae\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9df81f7846b4d29b9f578b5e4ba8685\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9df81f7846b4d29b9f578b5e4ba8685\u0022\u003EDr LAWRENCE XU-NAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Let\u2019s be clear. This Government is happy to sacrifice children and young people for profit. That is what we are seeing here with this bill, and their intentions have been on full display this week on a wide-ranging education bill, whether it is the easy one we are seeing today or the Education and Training Amendment Bill (No 2) from yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s unpack why I say that. Let\u2019s start with the fundamental aspect of what parents want to do when sending their children to early childhood education (ECE), other than having it being cost-effective. We\u2019ll talk about cost later, but the most fundamental aspect is health and safety. It\u2019s that they are sending their tamariki to ECE, to kindergarten, to puna reo, and to k\u014Dhanga reo, knowing that they are safe when they\u2019re in those kind of places. This bill will do none of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s all very well for the Ministers to go, like, \u201COh well, health and safety is really important for me.\u201D; thoughts and prayers. They are empty words and empty promises with no evidential backing. What is evidential is the fact that the move to deregulate the ECE sector has seen wide-ranging health and safety concerns in Australia, to the point that tamariki are being actively harmed in ECE centres, and to the point that we\u2019re seeing rampant issues of violence and violations in Australia due to deregulation. This Minister and his Government has the gall to come into the House and say that deregulation is helpful for children. For whom, I ask? It\u2019s not for the children. It is for those little corporate elves that are whispering sweet nothings in the Minister\u2019s ear. It is for the international companies that come here and take advantage of our tamariki and our wh\u0101nau. When you are looking at health and safety here, we are seeing\u2014and we will see more and more of this\u2014our tamariki being harmed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s move on to another aspect of what this bill is doing: taking the bill out of the hands of the Ministry of Education and putting it in the hands of ERO, the Education Review Office. Now, what that does is send a clear signal that the Minister and the Government doesn\u2019t care about ECE teachers because they are moving to de-professionalise ECE so that they can pay the staff less. We have just recently, over the last few days, seen an ad saying, \u201CLook, now is your chance. Staff can be paid at a lower rate.\u201D How wonderful is that for our children? That is shameful. It is shameful that that kind of ad is even allowed to be up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWhen we are looking at this bill, part of the thing that the Minister mentioned is the genesis of this bill is based on a Ministry for Regulation\u2019s report. Now let\u2019s unpack that Ministry for Regulation\u2019s report, which we have done in the select committee stage. We also asked the Minister at that stage, \u201CWell, how did you come about with this report, and how did this report actually shape the bill itself?\u201D Because, number one, when the report was conducted, it had a number of leading questions, but also when we\u2019re looking at the actual report itself, there was no genuine data that had been presented. Instead, it was a lot of hot takes from the Minister for Regulation on what they think and how they choose to interpret the data. That\u2019s not genuine independent research. That is leading research and wanting a particular kind of outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003ESo when we did question the Minister in the select committee stage, the Minister was like, \u201COh, you know, maybe, the report isn\u2019t everything, etc.\u201D But we asked the Minister, \u201CWell, you based this bill on that report. How did you base this bill on that report if the Minister himself does not have full confidence in the report?\u201D So we actually don\u2019t know where this bill came from, to be perfectly honest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EAlso, when we are looking at certain sections of this bill, let\u2019s say in terms of the new role of records of regulations, we\u2019re seeing, again, that for a Government that is all about deregulation and cutting all of the tapes, they certainly love to create a lot of new additional roles, additional bureaucracy, and additional yellow and blue tape. So I think that there is so little information in the select committee stage about how that Director of Regulation is going to eventuate, particularly, as the previous speaker, the Hon Jan Tinetti, has articulated, about when the Director of Regulation is going to be formed. They are also going to be overseeing k\u014Dhanga reo and puna reo, yet there is no evidence in here that says anything about our commitment to Te Tiriti o Waitangi. In fact, the regulatory impact statement said there has been limited ability to consult with M\u0101ori on this bill. Why? Because the Minister doesn\u2019t want to hear from M\u0101ori on this bill, or from the general population, or from k\u014Dhanga reo or from puna reo, because it doesn\u2019t suit their agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EI mentioned in the beginning that this is part of a broader attack by this Government on the ECE sector. We\u2019re also seeing the fact that there is an ECE funding review that has been happening again on how we can squeeze more money out of parents and out of Government, and how we can really scrape the bottom of the barrel in terms of staff ratio, in terms of teacher qualifications, in order for those international companies coming in here and buying up our ECE centres to funnel the money offshore. That is what we are going to be seeing in this whole ECE reform package. That is not the intention of early childhood education. That should not be any Government\u2019s intention for the future of our tamariki and mokopuna. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EWe want to see safe and thriving children and young people here, but this bill is not going to achieve that. This bill is not going to achieve the fact that the top comment and the top ask from qualified ECE teachers is to have a better ratio for student teachers. We are seeing that teachers are working longer and longer hours in ECE centres. They are having more and more of a burden, I guess, in many ways placed on them because of the ratio and because they are looking after more children. They are asking for better support, and from a Government that talks about how much money they are putting into learning access in this year\u2019s Budget\u2014not a single cent of that has gone to ECE. We have not seen an increase in the education support workers\u2019 hours that are provided for children and for tamariki in early childhood education settings. That is the ask of the sector, and that is the ask of the teachers because we are seeing more tamariki with more needs manifesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EFor a Government that talks about educational outcomes, by having unregistered teachers in the ECE setting, how are we going to be preparing our tamariki for entry into primary school if this bill goes through? So, again, we want to see safe and thriving children and we are deeply concerned that this bill is going to take us backwards and we are going to be putting tamariki in harm\u2019s way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e2154eca8dae42a480d28fe23da6e395\u0022\u003EThere are a lot more things that I think this bill could potentially tidy up on, and we\u2019re happy to engage with the Minister during the committee of the whole House stage, but the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand will not and will never support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad5278ee7bbf4784b241597149515d07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad5278ee7bbf4784b241597149515d07\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa853692184243e99ed00d9427156831\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022213cb30b7980463cb4430596b6ffa295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa853692184243e99ed00d9427156831\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E If I was on that side of the House this morning, I would be embarrassed by the scaremongering they are creating in this House. I am lucky that I have a 17-week-old daughter this week, but I\u2019m lucky because she\u2019s not my first. We have children in early childhood education and we know the value of the work that teachers do across this county in early childhood education right now. But if she was my first and I had to watch what these guys have been saying in this House about the challenges they are creating in their minds and in the minds of New Zealanders about early childhood education, I would be worried about the education my daughter would be going into. But I want to assure New Zealanders that it\u2019s not the truth. The truth is that this bill will support the development of early childhood education in this country, and, therefore, I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022 data-id=\u002254192556bb4d49d089b08496cec25ceb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254192556bb4d49d089b08496cec25ceb\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This bill follows what I think was some really good work. It\u2019s good to see the Ministry for Regulation finding its feet and doing some good work. If we want our country to be more prosperous and if we want to be wealthier, we have to reduce red tape in some places. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EI heard the words \u201Cgold standard\u201D uttered by Jan Tinetti, and, look, I can well recall a number of early childhood education centres which were looking to upgrade what they were. They wanted to go from, if you like, bronze standard, and silver standard was all that they could afford to do, but the ministry would say to them, \u201CNo, if you can\u2019t make gold, forget it. You\u2019re not going to go anywhere.\u201D, and so they had to stick with bronze standard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdda043d491c47629c336b7aadb222fc\u0022\u003EI also heard, as Carl Bates has said, a lot of scaremongering from the Opposition parties about things like health and safety. Those are all in the bill. There is the primary purpose and a whole bunch of objectives, and that includes health and safety. I think that the Opposition is misrepresenting this bill, and I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022 data-id=\u00226e7bfcd929ba4df9aae3c1f6707cc3d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfcd929ba4df9aae3c1f6707cc3d7\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003EKua tipu hei oranga m\u014D te iwi M\u0101ori \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003EM\u0101 te Matua i te rangi hei \u0101rahi te k\u014Dhanga \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira mauria mai \u014D tamariki \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003Eki te k\u014Dhanga reo \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E[It has grown for the wellbeing of the Maori people \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003EMay our Father in heaven lead the Kohanga \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003ETherefore, bring your children \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003Eto the k\u014Dhanga reo] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003EThis is probably one of the most colonial, violent pieces of legislation to move into this House. I go back to a time as a graduate of te k\u014Dhanga reo, and when I was at the k\u014Dhanga reo, it was driven by community, it was driven by elders, it was driven by hap\u016B, and it was driven by iwi k\u014Drero and m\u0101tauranga. This particular bill takes that power away from our people. It takes away the ability to ground our tamariki in who they truly are. It takes away the ability for our people to live by design and not by default. This particular bill is probably one of the most atrocious bills I have seen in regards to M\u0101ori being able to live their best lives and being able to grow tamariki mokopuna to stand strong, to stand tall, and to stand true to who they really are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003EWe don\u2019t need monocultural perspectives. We don\u2019t need monocultural subjugation and assimilation projects and experiments. What we need is to allow our people to live with dignity, integrity, and rangatiratanga. This bill strips away all of that. It takes away the cloak of safety that Te Tiriti o Waitangi provides, not just to M\u0101ori tamariki but to every tamaiti in this country. To then move it to a ministry and a Minister who has openly attacked Te Tiriti o Waitangi, who has openly attacked te reo M\u0101ori, and who has openly attacked the rights of tangata whenua here in Aotearoa is absolutely appalling. That this Government will allow that, after years and years of support for kaupapa like k\u014Dhanga reo and puna reo\u2014this particular party and past MPs that have supported kaupapa like k\u014Dhanga reo and puna reo would be ashamed. They would be ashamed that they have allowed this piece of legislation to go through this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003EThey gave an ability for M\u0101ori to be able to build a kaupapa that was grounded in te ao M\u0101ori. This iteration of a National Government and a National Party disregards the mahi that their forefathers and those who have gone through this House before them have left. It was a legacy that allowed a relationship to be built\u2014albeit incremental, albeit very slow\u2014but at least they were listening to the people outside of this House. They have forgotten the voices outside this House. They have forgotten those who matter. They are out of touch\u2014they are out of touch. What we need to do is just have a look at the history books, have a look at the Hansard, have a look at what past National Governments have done to ensure that M\u0101ori were able to build k\u014Dhanga reo and were able to build puna reo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003EBut what we have done is moved it under a Minister that has a fetish to discriminate iwi M\u0101ori, not only its language but Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226930f2a7e994422bbf0e7101fab4e85c\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: What a load of absolute nonsense!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279280329f21f4c12bf4c6a97300575d0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e28ab83fcc714e9c8f82df8897d2494c\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all in your legislation. What we want to do is to say that Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori are absolutely and unequivocally opposed to this bill. At the second reading, we hope that the National Government and the National Party find the heart that they have had in the past to ensure that this bill doesn\u2019t go through, and allow M\u0101ori to live by design and not by default. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002261384c02f0f541d4a11e6d45e88df8c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261384c02f0f541d4a11e6d45e88df8c1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next half of the split call, can I just remind members that the conversation does not happen across the House. If you want to have a conversation with anyone else that\u2019s not speaking, take it out into the corridor. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022 data-id=\u0022d195108a5a024ad8bb98b2ec3b1267da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d195108a5a024ad8bb98b2ec3b1267da\u0022\u003EFRANCISCO HERNANDEZ (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to take a call on the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill. Before I begin my speech properly, I just wanted to acknowledge two of the previous speakers from the Government benches: Andy Foster and Carl Bates. They\u2019re very able and intelligent people, so it surprised me that they couldn\u2019t do full calls on this, that they did sub-one-minute speeches. I had a think: why would these intelligent, thoughtful members have such short contributions to a debate? I think it\u2019s because they know that this bill is actually indefensible, so they can\u2019t muster up any kind of defence to what this Government is doing, which is actually continuing the deregulation agenda that has begun from their term. We\u2019ve seen the impacts of the deregulation agenda on our electricity markets and we\u2019ve seen the impact of deregulation on the monopoly power that our supermarkets enjoy. So this is just continuing a trend that has immiserated New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003ENow, we have specific objections to this bill that were articulated already quite nicely by the previous Green speaker, but I\u2019ll go through them again. One of the concerns that we have is the speed at which this legislation and all the wider Government reforms are actually taking place. It\u2019s a policy blitzkrieg because they know that they\u2019re on their way out already and they\u2019re trying to rush through as much legislation as they can on their way out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003EOne of our concerns, as well, is the opaque consultation that has occurred. We know that the genesis of this bill and the report that it relies on was the regulatory review that the Ministry for Regulation did. We know that that report ignored the research evidence relating to teaching and learning; we know that the ministry chose not to proactively release the data collected from the consultation; and we know that this is a trend and that it doesn\u2019t have to be this way, because we\u2019ve seen other bills where they\u2019ve actually released the information proactively. We know that this bill creates potential risks for people not only working in the sector but for the people that they\u2019re servicing, the children who are in these centres. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003EOne of the main recommendations of the genesis of this, which was the Ministry for Regulation\u2019s regulatory review on the early childhood education (ECE) sector, was to remove HS5, which is safe assembly areas for children in the event of fires and emergency. We see this sort of thinking permeate with the shift to risk-based monitoring that this bill is proposing to do. We on this side of the House think that\u2019s potentially dangerous, and it\u2019s dangerous because we know that the number of emergency events in New Zealand has only risen quite precipitously since\u2014well, it\u2019s been increasing constantly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003EOne of the things that you do when you\u2019re a new MP is you get taken to the bunker and they show you the number of emergencies that New Zealand has had. There\u2019s a little chart that they show you that shows the number of emergency management events that have occurred in New Zealand. There\u2019s been quite a rapid explosion over the past 10 years. So the removal of safe assembly areas, and the shift to risk-based monitoring that this bill is proposing to shift towards, is really a retrograde step in the wrong direction and it\u2019s something that will potentially compromise the safety of the tamariki in the centres but it also potentially compromises the staff and also the wellbeing of the parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003EWe also know that the child impact statement was not produced as part of the consideration for this bill, and Mana Mokopuna were not genuinely engaged in the development of this bill. We know that this uneven scrutiny invites breaches of trust, places children and families at risk, and risks jeopardising our obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. We know that this will further undermine the confidence of parents, wh\u0101nau, and the community in our ECE provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229e993a4a461347e9bc28e6c1bb3bae63\u0022\u003EWith the remaining 10 seconds that I have left on this bill, I want to reiterate our opposition not only to this bill but to the wider deregulation agenda that this bill represents. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022 data-id=\u00225d96fd9c6d234ae4b9aaac9d8963064d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d96fd9c6d234ae4b9aaac9d8963064d\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill in its second reading. At the Education and Workforce Committee we did hear from a wide range of people and we were ably supported, and I want to say thanks to all the submitters and all the staff who supported us in this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cd0d07fe5f04776ba97ee6688be1593\u0022\u003EThe bill that has come through is a sensible one that focuses on safety, and it makes sure that it clarifies regulations for the education providers so that they can be there for the children and have a better opportunity to be able to start up businesses and therefore improve competition and reduce costs across the board. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022 data-id=\u00221ebe290e9df34447a2dc9d3cf1145e84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ebe290e9df34447a2dc9d3cf1145e84\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Speaker. So just by way of a bit of context for my comments, there\u2019s no doubt in my mind that the expansion of early childhood education over the last, let\u2019s say, two decades - plus has been one of the really important advances in New Zealand\u2019s social provision. It\u2019s become an indispensable service for so many families now who rely on one or both parents working in order to feed the family. So from a sheer economic point of view, it\u2019s become a vital part of modern life for families in New Zealand. It\u2019s now widely accepted, I think, that high-quality early childhood education is one of the best social interventions we can make to give our children the best possible start in life. It\u2019s one of the most powerful things we can do to improve the life chances of our people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EWe have, through successive Governments, kind of pieced together, layer upon layer, a mixed model of public funding\u2014public provision and private provision. That has its pros and cons. There\u2019s a strong view amongst the non-profit providers in the early childhood education (ECE) sector that the competitive pressures inherent in the market actually tend to cut against the really important quality aspects of early childhood education that are so important: that is, highly qualified teachers, appropriate teacher-to-student ratios, an emphasis on child development and really positive learning environment, safety, and the wellbeing of the students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThere are, of course, many privately run early childhood education providers that do a fantastic job. My granddaughter\u2019s just graduated to the local primary school. She spent more than two years with a local ECE that is privately run, and the quality of that centre and the teaching and the overall environment was outstanding. But nevertheless, I think the tensions that are inherent to this kind of mixed model are a really sensitive issue that this House should pay attention to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThe suspicion from the beginning of this process that the Minister, David Seymour, initiated with his review of the regulatory settings has been that it was a move by an ACT Party Minister to pursue a competitive market approach to the provision of early childhood education that would further privilege the market position of privately owned early childhood education centres. I think that suspicion has been reinforced with the emergence of this bill, with the submissions that we heard at select committee. I think that many in the sector\u2014in the non-profit part of the sector, particularly\u2014would say their suspicions have been borne out. What we see with this bill is that it puts in place a new regulatory framework, the appointment or the establishment of a new director of regulation whose mandate is framed primarily around the economic imperative to make it easier for parents to get back into the workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003ENow, of course, that is important; that\u2019s part of the equation. But, we ask, why isn\u2019t the important framing for this new measure the quality of early childhood education: learning, the safety and wellbeing of the children who are in that system? That seems really to put the cart before the horse. If there\u2019s a part of the education system where the wellbeing of the students and their safety should be paramount, surely it should be the early childhood sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThe bill also establishes a number of principles that the director must have regard to. That includes the health, safety, and wellbeing of the children; it includes their learning and their development; the role of parents and caregivers; and that good regulatory practice must be risk-based, proportionate, fair, and transparent, and avoid imposing unnecessary costs on parents, caregivers, and service providers. The effect of that and the overall framing of this provision, we believe, is to move the dial in the direction of low-cost regulation that will remove the regulatory burden on providers and away from what we think should be the paramount objectives, and that is the safety, wellbeing, and the educational experience of the students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227d50be4a7fd042fca27c41c4c644561f\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been a lot of criticism, and it needs to be noted that the process has been rushed, consultation has been limited, and that has, I think, further undermined confidence of much of the sector in this regulatory process. Ultimately, we\u2019ll see in the work of the director of regulation and what that position delivers. We\u2019ll see whether or not, in fact, the fears that the sector have that this is simply a Trojan horse to run the sector along purely market and competitive lines\u2014we\u2019ll see, in time, whether in fact those concerns are borne out. I\u2019ll leave that there. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6e164f23796485ab8b5d9318d3e84fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229a9c205f95fc4f5c8943b440b9f5cb1d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6e164f23796485ab8b5d9318d3e84fc\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s great to take this short call on a very important bill. Listening to the Opposition, anyone would think that the world was going to end. Actually, we\u2019re very focused on providing an early childhood education (ECE) sector that is both safe and provides high-quality education for young children. But what we do have to remember is parents. Remember the parents in this situation: the parents actually need the ability to find an ECE facility to use, and to also have the ability to afford it. This bill will allow both of those things to happen, and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022 data-id=\u00228454a0c2188a47f99bef1e07042dac4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228454a0c2188a47f99bef1e07042dac4b\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity to talk on the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill. Of course, those words are important: early childhood education. We are not talking about daycares or childcares; this is childhood education. It is not babysitting, and I\u2019ll come to that point in a minute, but I want to start on a positive note, and that is that I\u2019m standing here as the member of Parliament for Dunedin. Of course, Dunedin is famous for many things: amazing wildlife, beautiful heritage, an amazing university, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f111048ae5a4b77b2be86987bd8aafb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244ce2ac73f394cf1b0191bd12f765cde\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Amazing businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3dfeca085a34c1c9408a17759d39f78\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014some amazing businesses. That\u2019s right; lots of innovation. It\u2019s a great city. There\u2019s a real emphasis on education there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EAs part of their emphasis on education, there has been the world-renowned longitudinal study\u2014the Dunedin study\u2014of people that are now, I can\u2019t remember, 52 or 53. This study has gone for over 50 years now, over half a century, looking at, and following, about a thousand people over that half-decade and more, and they bring them back to Dunedin every seven or so years\u2014it depends on the age that they\u2019re at\u2014and they do a lot of different testing and studying with these wonderful people, who\u2019ve given up so much of their life to be part of that study. From this study, there have been lots of pieces of research, and one of those has demonstrated the importance of the first 1,000 days of life. Of course, for many children, those first thousand days of life will involve an early childhood education centre. This legislation is incredibly important because it deals with those first thousand days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EI also want to add, in my being a person from Dunedin, that I\u2019m also a mother from Dunedin and have had all three of my children go through an excellent early childhood education centre attached to the hospital, and so I know what it feels like as a parent to have your children being educated by trained teachers with good ratios. What a difference that made to my comfort in going back into the workforce. It\u2019s so important that we recognise their expertise and also the stresses that are on that workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EOf course, I\u2019ve also been talking to NZEI in Dunedin and the teachers there that are very opposed to this legislation and have problems with both this legislation and the other regulations that the Minister has referred to. I want to go to who does the regulating. That is an issue that the Minister addressed in his speech on the second reading. He said that it\u2019s good to separate the regulatory body from the policy body. That is a common thing that we see in regulatory systems, but it\u2019s also good\u2014and, I would argue, much, much, much more important\u2014that the regulated isn\u2019t doing the regulating. One of our concerns with the bill is that the industry who is now providing for some of this childhood education will set those standards and will become the regulator. That is of great concern because, of course, they have other incentives there, like the ability to keep on doing their business, which is this childcare. That is a concern and that is my answer to the Minister. Of course, we\u2019ve seen that from ACT in other settings, as well, most recently with farm plans. This is where the industry is doing the regulation rather than a Government body.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003EI also want to quickly touch on these changes to the purpose of Part 2 of the Act, and that is where the focus becomes on the parents participating in the labour market rather than on all children being able to participate and receive a strong foundation for learning and positive wellbeing. That is a terrible change, and we\u2019ll have more to say about that in the committee of the whole House stage. I do not recommend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212fd037a8544418390244b7c3a65216e\u0022 data-id=\u00223d287d7d62bd461ab17848ddeacb4226\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212fd037a8544418390244b7c3a65216e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d287d7d62bd461ab17848ddeacb4226\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a great honour to rise in support of the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill in this reading. I agree with the previous speaker: this is about education. If we tie up our educators with a high compliance burden, that\u2019s less time for genuine educational engagement and children interaction. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6634ee2b6974a67bd934af264f4161b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6634ee2b6974a67bd934af264f4161b\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. As I rise to reflect on this piece of legislation and, I guess, echo the words of my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking, who was talking about the Dunedin study, I say that I was about two years old and I was too young. I think it was about 1972 that that was first initiated, and I was born in Dunedin in 1975. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225f7e23d3e36441cbb5adcaca9866cbeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204d966f8cba64e04ba78afc73f23bdef\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: A great year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a05fb9c0851c41e2b3942848b3605d7a\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: A great year\u2014but it was. As my honourable colleague has said, the significance of that piece of work and its reputation not only in New Zealand but globally demonstrates the fact that good data and tracking for a long time is what we need to be doing. That was about the role of nurturing a baby from conception right through that first 1,000 days, but often I reflect that now a lot of the research and work talks about the first 2,000 days, and that is the thinking about the fact that the time of conception through to the time a child can start school is significant and is so important in terms of the foundation. It is so important in terms of attachment, and you can look at all the research when it comes to not only early childhood education but also the make-up of a wh\u0101nau and a community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EAttachment is such a key element when it comes to the wellbeing and the potential that a child has to grow into an adult who can participate in society in a productive way. All the research and the evidence shows that, and often in this House it does concern me\u2014and I talk from all colours of Government\u2014that at times we do ignore research or evidence. That is unhelpful, particularly when it comes to our youngest and particularly when it comes to the foundation, which means, if we get it right in those first 1,000 days and in the first 2,000 days, there is far more chance and likelihood that children will be, as I\u2019ve said, those productive and engaged members of society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EI didn\u2019t sit on the Education and Workforce Committee for this bill, and so I have just a few comments that I wanted to make as I\u2019ve read through the regulatory impact statement (RIS), as I\u2019ve looked briefly through the bill, and as I\u2019ve listened to colleagues on all sides of the House debating this legislation this morning. I want to reflect on some of the comments in the RIS, and often we hear\u2014particularly as this was brought to the House by the Ministry for Regulation, and the leader of the ACT Party, and the current Deputy Prime Minister\u2014that it\u2019s all around the money and it\u2019s all around the cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EI flicked through the RIS, looking at the cost impacts and what it means and what was presented to the Cabinet, what was presented to the select committee, and what\u2019s been presented to the House this afternoon in terms of the cost benefits. For those who haven\u2019t read one of these documents before, it goes through and it can be fairly methodical at times, and at times there can be lots of bits missing. When we look at this one this afternoon, we can look at the cost and there is, it says here, an outline of the key monetarised and non-monetarised costs, where those costs fall for people and organisations or the environments, the nature of those impacts, and the direct impacts that the cost of a piece of legislation like this will have. I looked at it, and it\u2019s just missing. It\u2019s completely redacted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EObviously, we know that there are different reasons that information is redacted when it comes to the RIS, but the fact is that the whole section on the cost\u2014the core information around this bill\u2014has absolutely nothing that we can take as a House and there is nothing that we can take as a select committee around the cost implications. Whether it\u2019s good or whether it\u2019s bad, we don\u2019t know, because it is completely missing, and that is always a challenge for us, as we in Opposition want to critique, want to understand, and want to find a way forward that shows that maybe, potentially, there is something good about this. But we don\u2019t know because it is missing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EMy second comment that I want to make\u2014and my colleague the Hon Phil Twyford, who did sit on the select committee, brought this up briefly\u2014is around the limitations and constraints on analysis on this piece of legislation. Again, we go through the RIS and look at the information that is at hand, and it talks about there being several limitations or constraints on the regulatory analysis outlined in this RIS. That is due to the limitations on the rigour and depth of analysis undertaken as part of the review. It talks about the ministerial direction to accept the findings and recommendations of the review and the ministerial direction to develop and implement the policy response at pace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EIt is talking about trying to reduce regulatory burden for the service providers, but then it goes on to say that there are limited opportunities to test the key assumptions underpinned by some of the findings and the recommendations of the review and considered alternative options. That\u2019s because time wasn\u2019t allowed to make this happen, that is because they weren\u2019t able to necessarily engage with all the stakeholders and key people that they needed to, and that is a challenge when we come back to the House. Not only is the select committee having to unpack it but then we come here in the second reading and, again, when we move into the committee stage to debate, to unpack, and to pull this apart to ensure that it actually has some decency when it ends up\u2014if it does\u2014having its third reading and having the Royal assent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EIt talks about there being limited time to undertake a detailed analysis. There just was not time for them to engage with that, and then there was the lack of consultation with key stakeholders\u2014including service providers, parents, and M\u0101ori\u2014on these policy proposals, and that is a challenge for us, because we often talk about what the role of the Opposition is. The role of the Opposition is to critique, the role of the Opposition is to hold the Government to account, and the role of the Opposition is, yeah, to pull it apart. Potentially, we might not agree with every bill\u2014in fact, on many of them that are currently coming through, we very rarely agree\u2014but if we have to deal with it, it\u2019s around how do we pull it apart and put it back together in a way that maybe is acceptable, not only to us as the Opposition but to the key stakeholders, to the families, and the people involved. But the challenge we have is that, yet again, it\u2019s a rushed process and so there\u2019s limited analysis and there\u2019s little understanding of the cost, and that is where we have to say no, we can\u2019t continue to support this legislation in its form, because we are just not happy with where it\u2019s landed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EFinally, I just wanted to talk about the shift away from the child-centred approach that this legislation brings, and that is of concern for us. Again, as the Hon Rachel Brooking and I have talked about the first 1,000 days\u2014and others in the House have nodded and agreed\u2014we say that the child-centred approach should always be the key. With every piece of legislation\u2014whether it be about children, whether it be about early childhood education, or whatever it is about\u2014we should always focus on ensuring that there is a child-centred approach, and in this legislation the concern is that the child development, the wellbeing, and the learning are at risk because of the way that this legislation is put together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EThe stakeholders actually talked about the fear and the concern that they have about this, and about the intrinsic value that play brings, that exploration brings, and that holistic learning brings in terms of a child\u2019s development. We look at this bill, and it feels like it\u2019s just around the economic development and participation\u2014how to actually make it work from an economic development perspective\u2014whereas it should be from a child-centred perspective. It should be about creativity, it should be about play, it should be about exploration, and it should be about the social and emotional foundations that we build when we talk about those first 1,000 and 2,000 days, to ensure that a child is equipped and ready to face the big, wide world out there, which is so challenging and tough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228682d6827e0e49d986d3bf8a86021933\u0022\u003EWe can\u2019t support this bill. It fundamentally goes against many of the values and what we stand for as the Labour Party, and I know that other colleagues in the Opposition agree with that, as well. We cannot support this bill, and we ask the Government to consider voting against it. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022 data-id=\u002259b73b0f9f0c464890cad53a0ae5f831\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002242664a30b2084eecaa14aec43ec7cf61\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259b73b0f9f0c464890cad53a0ae5f831\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to take the final call on the Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill. I agree with the comments made by my wonderful colleagues as they have traversed this bill, and we do not agree with many of the comments from the other side. We support the bill, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u002233c0423c8f5949d2ba5ccc6d57fa2a9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233c0423c8f5949d2ba5ccc6d57fa2a9f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the amendments recommended by the Education and Workforce Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002200be4a7ce64942d7a823030ef143a5f6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220a11bc0737a5488bab55f01786c36034\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Education and Training (Early Childhood Education Reform) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15;Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 4; Ferris; Kapa-Kingi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000365\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbd2d8d8f4e3402db0a9ef54905c44b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbd2d8d8f4e3402db0a9ef54905c44b9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, that is the end of Tuesday\u2019s day. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 1 p.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202511116bf19a17de5f409f916ee12b8385bac4000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b546dbe94a7c480c8a38a626c514de60\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"